Days ARE Evil

rookie May 19, 2004

"See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil." Eph 5:16-17Last week I was teaching in the last part of Genesis 17. A question came up about the 12 princes of Ishmael. I had not prepared for this topic, for I was focused on God's promise. What I learned was this. The Scriptures teach about God and His righteousness. The Scriptures also teach about the wickedness of this world. I was guilty of only teaching half the Scriptures last week. I believe we Christians pass over much of the Bible which speaks of the different ways men are wicked. We preach the Cross, but yet we don't want to identify what needs to go on the Cross. I believe there is much to learn about how Satan holds sway over this world. Our lives are filled with the philosophies and hopes of this world. And unless we are like the mighty men of David who knew that their times were wicked how can we battle against the ruler of this world. In ChristJeff

riki May 19, 2004

Jeff, I think you are so right about this. We need to see ourselves as we in fact are and come to understand what the world and the devil are really about. Even more so, as the days are getting more and more evil.I think that if we knew God the way He wants us to know Him, we would not only love Him so very much more, but we would hate sin so much more than we do. The fact that we show such tolerance for sin, world and flesh - doesn't that say a great deal about how little we really know Him? Do we not far too often shut our eyes and try to convince ourselves that all is well, or at least OK, even though it is not? When are we going to stop pretending? People, how honest are we? With ourselves? With God? God, open our eyes to see! Reveal to us the truth about our condition so that we do not only know but KNOW how lost we are without you! Amen.

rookie May 20, 2004

riki May 20, 2004

"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved." 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10Did you perhaps watch the video with Art Katz (The Love of the Truth)? This passage fits in so well with what he says! That sure is a powerful and serious message that many need to hear. Without a real LOVE for the truth, how will we be able to stand in these last days?My experience is that probably the strongest way in which Satan deceives us is making us believe that things are not as serious, or as bad, as they are. He tells us that loving the world isn't REALLY that bad, that you cannot not REALLY be sure there will be a judgement day, that you cannot REALLY believe everything in the Bible, etc, etc.Basically, I think Satan does everything he can to prevent us from discovering exactly how opposite the opposites are. We need to know how good God is and how evil the devil is, we need to know how radically different God's ways are from the ways of the world. I my case, I still don't - and it shows! The essence of my life is not, yet, Christ and Christ alone.If Satan can keep us satisfied with part of the truth (the part that suits us of course), we will never become a threat to him. Only having part of the truth while believing we have it all is nothing but devestating. Isn't that what deception is all about??God have mercy and give us a love for the truth - HE is the truth.

Yodi May 20, 2004

What is Jesus showing you about the world? How is Satan deceiving many?I would have to agree with riki, "... the strongest way in which Satan deceives us is making us believe that things are not as serious, or as bad, as they are."I would say that most of the time, when I look around at people, I have the What a Wonderful World mentality, you know, from Louis Armstrong? "The colors of the rainbow so pretty in the sky, are also on the faces of people going by. I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do. They're really saying I love you..." But if I look long enough, I think maybe the Spirit stirs in me to see what's beneath the surface.Things may look fine and civilized on the outside, but what's going on inside with each person's soul and spirit? Maybe I started thinking about this more when I heard a part of the "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" teaching. What was it, the whole idea behind humanism? You live in this life pretty much to be as happy as you can be? I think that's what it was. Well, that's what I see. People may be laughing and smiling, but after they die, is this the only place they're going to be able to laugh and smile at?I heard it taught before, for the non-Christian, this life is as good as it's going to get. For the Christian, this life is the worst as it's going to get.So... whenever I get the chance to be out in society, which is very little considering that I work in a church, I hope and pray for opportunities to get to talk to people and dig a little beneath the surface of it all. It's crazy to me how something as simple as morals can be so different between Christians and the rest. Stuff that makes sense to me, doesn't necessarily make sense to others, and vice versa.Well, I could go on and on and I don't know that I was really making a point. But those are my thoughts for now.

rookie May 24, 2004

About 3 years into my walk as a believer, I was struggling with the notion of man's total depravity. One day as I have described in other posts, I was convicted by these words from my pastor, "If it is in the Bible I believe it." That day marked a milestone in my walk. The Holy Scriptures began to open up to me in a way that had not been clear before. Now I must step back in time 20 years or so. When I was 17, my family began to experience financial difficulty. I saw the hopes of my father shattered when the steel mill shutdown in 1974. He had believed in the American dream. He was raised a coal miner. He enlisted into the Army at the age of 16. He fought in the Pacific near the end of WW2. Then my father was captured in the Korean Conflict. After the Korean conflict, he came back to begin working for Bethlehem Steel. He worked hard for 22 years. Then the end of his hope came. This time produced in me a bitterness, even at the age of 17 to 18 years old. For the next 25 years I held that bitterness. At about the time I looked to Jesus to be my Lord and Savior, I began to study political economics. It was not something any of my friends had a desire to discuss. Yet I had a passion for the subject. I was searching for the answers for why the American dream for many people was disappearing. I was studying the subject of the Cold War and the policies that were formulated by the NSA and CIA. Certain policy was put into place to combat the spread of Communism during the earlies 1950's. This could be a long post if I were to go into detail. So I will now go forward to the 1980's. During the 1980's President Regan ramped up the war against Communism. The government took on huge debt to finance a military build up. Programs like Star Wars were initiated. When asked who was responsible for the idea of Star Wars, the public was told that President Regan came up with the idea. In conjuction with this build up also came a wave of laws that were passed to protect American industry from foreign competition. President Regan signed more bills during his time than all the presidents that preceded him from the time of Eisinhower to Carter combined. American industry was suffering mightily during the 80's. The the Regan adminstration sought to protect them from the competition from abroad. Please have patience. The Cold War strategy that was instituted in the 1950's was having a negative impact on American industry by the 1970's. The Regan administration had to finish the Communist threat. As we all know they were successful. One day as I was studing these two policies of the Regan administration, it seemed to me as a hopeless pursuit. God at that time had given me a passion for His word. And yet I was spending alot of time reading about the world. That day I prayed to God to give me an answer, in regards to, should I continue reading political economics. Was I waisting my time? A few moments later the word "linked" filled my mind. All of a sudden I understood that the military buildup and the trade protection policies were part of the same strategy to undermine communism. It was of extreme importance that Communism be destroyed. The voice I heard that day brought understanding and peace to me. All at once I understood that man in his total depravity, brings suffering into the world. I had struggled for years to find the justice that was owed my family because the American dream had been lost. Now the idea of man's depravity gave me peace. All at once I understood there is no hope for the world and it's values. There is no hope in the rule of men. God gave me peace by showing me where men eroneously place their hope in. Once this understanding came to me, the bitterness of 25 years disappeared. Now I understood that it is a futile thing to put your hope in man. As a side note, in December of 1989, three Communist countries declared that they would hold democratic elections. That same month the Japanese stock market peaked about 36000. Now 15 years later, it is a third of that former value. The day the world saw the end of Communism near, it no longer had to support the Cold war strategies that artificially supported the economic system of Japan. That next year, Star Wars and all the military spending dried up. In ChristJeff

crsschk May 24, 2004

Brother Jeff,Great post.After the first one I instantly thought of this regarding our Lord:Heb 1:9 "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, anointed you rather than your companions with the oil of gladness." I believe it was Yodi who said:I have the What a Wonderful World mentality, you know, from Louis Armstrong? Interesting, even prior to being brought from the darkness into The Light, that song had always sat strangely within me, every time I hear it, it makes me sad. It is not a wonderful world, it's a wonderful creation, but the depravity of man has spoiled it all. Fortunately that is not the end of the story though, both we and the creation itself "groan" (Romans 8:18 and following)Jeff said:The love of the truth is the only protection that one has to see through the unrighteous deception of Satan. Is there anyone who can testify to this subject?Yes. I can definetly. I would liken it to a slow erosion. Was just musing on this again this morning. Satan has a lot of patience in a way. It's interesting that he is characterised as a snake, slick, hidden, going about almost undetected. Look how the envelope is slowly being pushed out, how things become more 'acceptable', all the 'major' sins if I may use the term loosely. Gluttony, homosexualality, drug use/drunkeness, materialism, adultery,...It's like there is a 'gloss' over everything, so it doesn't 'look' so bad. It's like being lulled to sleep, hypnotized practically. I am constantly amazed that people can't see the futility of spending their entire lives chasing after the wind, after who knows what and not coming to the realization that they are going to DIE. What's the point? Even if they have this wrong but vauge idea that their 'good deeds' are going to somehow merit them heaven, wouldn't you think that it would cause some kind of investigation, wouldn't you want to be SURE? I know, I am well aware of the humanism aspect here, but just trying to put myself back into that frame of mind...There is not a day that goes by that I don't look out at all the traffic, at all the people running to and fro, mostly frantically and wonder, "does anybody ever stop to think, what's the point?"Isn't it obvious that this is a temporal exsistance? Forget about a purpose driven life, how about about a purpose driven death?Yes, the love of THE truth. What else is there?Now I understood that it is a futile thing to put your hope in man. No doubt.2Co 4:4 "In their case, the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe to keep them from seeing the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God."

rookie May 26, 2004

I would like to quote from an article in the Bakersfield Californian, May 14, 2004.Title: United States had strong postwar ties with Nazis, released documents show.The American government worked closely with Nazi war criminals and collaborators, allowing many to live in the United States after WW2, and paying others who worked for West Germany's secret service, according to declassified documents from the FBI, CIA and other intelligence agencies released Thursday. The disclosures came as part of a project to place more than 8 million goverment documents in the public domain, under legislation passed by Congress in 1998 to create the Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial government Records Interagency Working Group. The article continues:Goda and other historians who studied the documents said that at least 5 associates of the Nazi leader Adolf Eichmann, each of whom had significant role in Hitler's effort to exterminate Jews, had worked for the CIA. The records also indicate that the CIA tried to recruit another two dozen war criminals or Nazi collaborators. Some of them received employment and in two cases, US citizenship, according to documents. The documents did not deal with those who concealed their Nazis pasts in order to gain entry to the United States.The article continues, Timothy J. Naftali, an intelligence historian at the University of Virginia who examined the documents and who also wrote chapters in the book on intelligence and Nazis, said, "We had no policies for helping Gestapo members, no disqualifiers unless the public knew about the crimes. It was kind of a "Don't ask, don't tell culture." In future posts I hope to shed some additional light on the relationships between this time in history and the fruit of what we see happening today.The days are evilIn ChristJeff

rookie May 27, 2004

I would like to quote Mark Phillips a former CIA Operative:Well what the United States was concerned with was that these Nazis, these scientists that had all this information and data we couldn’t seem to prosecute them. We couldn’t even find them. Because they had already, a lot of them, scattered out to various countries like Russia, Italy and South America. So what the CIA convinced Congress to do to pass this Project Paperclip, as a legal means of importing these people into the United States and introducing them into our military industrial complex, including our colleges and universities. Their statement was simply this: If we don’t bring these people into our country and contain them, then our enemies, the Soviet Union, will get them. So it was the same old bugaboo game when, in fact, I’ve often made the statement and I still make it flippantly: The Nazis didn’t lose the war, they just had to move. At the end of WW2 the United States imported over 700 german jet propulsion scientist and put them to work designing a new generation of flight machines. In addition to these 700, over 600 Mind scientists were also imported. One of the main weapons in Hitler's Nazi organization was the use of manipulating the perceptions of the population. This was the first large scale use of propaganda. The Nazi called it; Weltanshauungkrieg. This word can be translated; world view warefare. The Americans in the early 50's began to call this activity; Psychological warfare. This activity might be defined as; "the use of propaganda or other psychological means to influence or confuse the thinking, undermine the moral, of an enemy or opponent.During the times of war, America always looked to the banking and industrial leaders as men who would step up and serve their country in times of crisis. After the war, these same men would leave office and return to their civilian roles. However, at the end of WW2 this did not occur. President Dwight D. Eisenhower, in a famous farewell speach, warned the American people, "Beware of the military-industrial complex." This warning has proved to be true. This stuff I am writing is coming from a memory that fades like the grass when the sun burn down on it. Forgive me for lack of detail and time to research it again. Out of time,In ChristJeff

rooster May 28, 2004

In this day and age, a reading/re-reading of: "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis, would be worthwhile. Remember Brothers & Sisters, we live in "Enemy Occupied Territory"; Ezekiel states: "Make a chain, the land is full of bloody crime!"

rookie May 28, 2004

I must step back prior to WW2. There were two major movements of ecomomic philosophy that were in direct opposition to one another. The seeds of Capitalism first emerged in Europe during the time of Calvin in the late 1500's. The industrial age with the notion of mass manufacturing developed first in England during the late 1800's. This economic phenomenon crossed the Atlantic and rooted itself in the US. The United States at the turn of the last century had experienced the growth of wealth which was mainly held by those who defined that period in history. It was the time of the Robber Barrons. All economic systems, (remember the doctrine of total depravity), fall short of the glory of God. The abuses of Capitalism at the turn of the century, proved no different. A few men, held vast amounts of wealth. The majority of the population in the leading countries did not share in this prosperity. The rule by a few, whether it was a Czar in Russia or a Morgan or Rockefeller in the US, created a perception of inequality among the masses. The fruit of this disention manifested itself with the formation of a competing economic system. The seed of Communism took root first in Russia and then began to spread westward into Europe. These two economic systems are perfectly opposed to each other. The root of the difference between these two systems, I believe can be expressed in the question of ownership. Capitalism seeks to protect the rights of ownership of the individual. Communism seeks to give the rights of ownership to the masses. With this thought in mind, can you see the threat posed by Communism? The Capitalist, (those who have capital) perceived this question to their right of ownership as something that must not be allowed to flourish. What I am attempting to do is to bring to light the principles for which men strive to maintain. I am not trying in any way to justify any political position. I am seeking to identify the thoughts that men yoke themselve to. These thoughts create the desires for which men strive. The evidence of man's faith is a result of these desires. Out of time,In Christ Jeff

Jimm May 30, 2004

Hello Jeff This is indeed a great discussion you have going here. I agree with everyone. To add to that I believe to be wise we must have wisdom. It also important to accept that, wisdom and knowledge are Spiritual gifts from God as the scripture says, “ For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Colossians 1:9-11I used to become so caught up in becoming wise that that I lost the plot and simplicity that is in Godly wisdom, “But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Jas3:17Another that brought me back to simplicity is, “For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.” Rom 12:3. And so when I embraced my foolishness it opened the door for the wisdom of God. (“Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.” Php3:12)Your son in Christ James

rookie May 31, 2004

We as Christians spend quite a bit of effort to define words like justification, sanctification, and eternal security. In like manner, the world, especially in this last century has restled with words like Communism, Capitalism, Democracy, Nazism, and Fascism. These words represent the struggles of men. Blood has been spilled to promote each of these concepts men adhere themselves too. During the period between the WW1 and WW2, all of these precepts of men came into direct opposition to one another. Nazism, Fascism, and Capitalism formed one side and Democracy and Communism the other. Now you may at first rebel with what I say, please have patience. Again focus on the thought of right of ownership. Nazism, Fascism, and Capitalism promote the power of a few over the majority. There are differences between each of these concepts. Yet the unifying precept among these forms of government are based on ownership. Nazism and Fascism sought to conquer the world. Capitalism is no different. The means of conquering may manifest themselves as being different yet the results are the same. True Communism and Direct Democracy are one and the same precept. The Greeks practiced Democracy back before the incarnation of Christ. Edmund Burke wrote of Aristotle's thoughts: "I cannot help concurring [e.g., with Aristotle, inter alios] that an absolute democracy, no more than an absolute monarchy, is not to be reckoned among the legitimate forms of government. They think it rather the corruption and degeneracy than the sound constitution of a republic." Burke's agreement with Aristotle is in reference to the fact that Aristotle called democracy one of three "evil" forms of government (the other two: ochlocracy and tyranny)."On the other hand we have Democracy and Communism. Believe it or not Karl Marx based the precepts of Communism on Democracy. "The word democracy originates from the Greek "demos" meaning "the people" and "kratein" meaning "to rule" or "the people to rule" which meant literally: "Rule by the People." The term is also sometimes used as a measurement of how much influence a people has over their government, as in how much democracy exists. Anarchism and Communism (as in the final stage of social development according to Marxist theory) are social systems that employ a form of direct democracy, but have no state.'In a true democracy, one vote for every person, the interests of the majority would come to bear on all who live within this form of government. The right of ownership will follow the dictates of the majority for its own benefit. Again remember, man is totally depraved and is under the sway of the evil one. So we have two opposing systems. Now again returning to the events prior to WW2, the right of rule and thus ownership were in direct conflict. Men like Henry Ford of Ford Motor Company, A.P. Sloan of General Motors, Watson of IBM, helped Adolf Hitler and Nazism to gain power in Germany. Sloan and Ford actually went to Germany to recieve a medal of accomendation for their efforts in supporting Hitler's rise to power. Why did these American's support Hitler? They were commonly yoked together against the growing threat of rule by the people. Communism, labor unions, and the thought that the common man could come together to usurp the rights of the few was a real threat to the ruling class. The owners in America, the industrialist actually formed a group to discuss how the United States and Germany would divide up the world after Germany's conquest of Europe was complete. This group met officially until the bombing of Pearl Harbor. To be continued.James warns the believer of some of the things that represent the end times. "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you. James 5:1-6Meditate on this warning. What do you see going on around you. How are the hearts of men swayed by terms like democracy, capitalism, and communism. Do the influences of Nazism and Fascism still exist? What are we yoking our hearts too?In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 1, 2004

At the end of WW2, the same systems were still entrenched. The Soviet Union now occupied Eastern Europe. All of Europe laid in ruin. The conflict between Communism and Capitalism intensified. Initially, eastern Europe had begun to see some signs of economic recovery under the rule of Stalin. Western Europe was lagging behind. The powers that be in Washington decided that something had to be done to help Western Europe. It was of the utmost importance that the world not see Communism as a viable system. So the Marshall Plan was created. The United States gave Western Europe vast amounts of resources in order to stimulate economic recovery. In addition to this effort and new organization was created in the USA. The CIA was created to protect and promote the economic interests of the United States. The first job assignment for the CIA was to influence the general elections of the nation of Italy. Italy had become a very important assignment because of what had happened in the end of WW2. Montgomery and Patton had defeated the Germans in Italy. Mussolini and his fascist organization were destroyed. The war continued in other parts of Europe. During this time northern Italy began to rebuild itself. The common people entered the vacant factories and began collectively to produce goods. The factories without it original owners began to thrive. Labor Unions and Socialist leanings began to grow into the fabric of the nation. This movement was seen as a threat. The Capitalist feared that Italy would elect a Socialist government into office. Part of the CIA's strategy to combat the Socialist efforts was to contact US citizen's who had family still living in Italy. US citizens of Italian descent were encouraged to write to their families to promote Capitalism over Communism. This was the first battle waged by the CIA to protect the economic interests of the USA. The CIA was succesful. So what can be seen by these activities? Behind the scenes men are striving to promote the philosophies of men.Out of time,In Christ,Jeff

rookie Jun 2, 2004

Now we are back to the beginning of this thread. The United States unbenownst to the Jews and other who sought to prosecute the Nazi leadership as war criminals, actually recruited and pass laws to import these scientist into the U.S. The wisdom at the time was this, if we don't give these Nazi's a home, the Soviet Union our enemy will. So as I stated before, over 600 Mind Scientists entered the employment of the CIA. Please keep in mind, while the CIA is working to combat Communism, the KGB is seeking to undermine the Capitalistic system. As I have also stated before, President Eisenhower warned our country of the control that the Military-Industrial complex was establishing in this country. Those who were part of this complex had access to the work being done in the area of Mind Science. The CIA developed many ways to interogate men who were considered to be in opposition to the economic interest of Capitalism. Terms like truth serems (sp) and brainwashing were coined during the 1950's. This reseach on controling the minds of men would soon leave the laboratory and enter into the public sector. Out of time,IN ChristJeff

rookie Jun 4, 2004

During the early 1950's, sectors of the US government sought to establish within the minds of the public, the threat that Communism posed to our existence. Words like terrorism were used quite freely. It reminds me of the similiar time we live in today. Listen to Walter Cronkite talk about those days.http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1753982In Christ Jeff

rookie Jun 8, 2004

Here is a little story about the things that James warned us about. Yes it exists in the USA.By Michael Kahn SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - When garment worker Lupe Hernandez had a needle shoot through her finger, she chose to bandage it and continue sewing with her other hand out of fear that she might lose wages or even her job if she stepped away. Hernandez, 29, has often worked in Los Angeles-area factories with no running water or bathrooms during her 12 years in the industry. A typical day lasted 11 or 12 hours without paid overtime or paid breaks, she said. Yet even as many low-paying jobs in the U.S. garment industry move abroad, sweatshops still flourish in the Los Angeles area because of the large number of youth-oriented fashion retailers in Southern California, workers' rights groups say. These companies rely on manufacturers and contractors that often operate as sweatshops -- many within sight of the gleaming glass skyscrapers of downtown Los Angeles -- to deliver finished products quickly to keep up with a fickle youth market, the labor groups say. "There is a need to change fashions quickly," said Julie Su, an attorney with the Asian Pacific Legal Center. "There is something very appealing about local, domestic production." Labor groups call Los Angeles the U.S. sweatshop capital and estimated that tens of thousands of workers are stuck in such factories because they lack the skills and often the legal status to find other jobs. Many are recent immigrants, and Hernandez's situation is typical. "You can take a break, but you don't earn enough," Hernandez said in Spanish during a recent interview at a factory in the Los Angeles garment district located just south of the city's financial center. "They don't ask for papers, and you don't need much experience." Attention in recent years has focused on sweatshops outside the United States. In May, for example, Gap Inc. issued a report that acknowledged numerous violations -- from forced labor to physical punishment -- at its overseas factories. Yet holding U.S.-based sweatshops accountable is difficult. Su said factories where workers are denied wages, physically abused or subjected to unsafe conditions simply shut down when facing fines and reopen in another location under a different name. CRACKING DOWN These sweatshops are very mobile, fly-by-night operations," said Joann Lo, lead organizer of the Garment Workers Center. "They just close up shop to avoid fines." But the Los Angeles-based organization and other groups are trying to crack down on abuses with lawsuits targeting retailers that -- knowingly or unknowingly -- use contract manufacturers that produce goods under sweatshop conditions. This has helped the Garment Workers Center win more than $1.4 million in judgments from retailers, manufacturers and contractors on behalf of workers since opening three years ago, Lo said. Specifically, the groups have used a California law that allows them to hold retailers liable if a contractor or subcontractor where the abuses took place closes up shop. In recent months, retailers like Bebe Stores Inc. and Wet Seal Inc. have settled lawsuits charging wage and overtime abuses. Details of Bebe's settlement were not made public, while Wet Seal's new chief executive, Peter Whitford, has vowed to use only manufacturers and contractors that treat workers fairly and pay a decent wage. Ilse Metchek, executive director of the California Fashion Association trade group, acknowledged a "significant" underground sewing operation exists in the Los Angeles area, the hub of California's $30 billion garment industry. But she said workers' rights groups have chased easier-to-regulate big manufacturers out of state and unfairly targeted retailers with deep pockets. "The bigger the shop, the less the problem," Metchek said. "They go after the names that are really trying to do the best job they can possibly do." Workers agree that small factories pose the biggest problems. During a walk through a warehouse in the Los Angeles garment district, Hernandez pointed out dozens of operations that she called sweatshops on different floors. Spanish-language postings offering work lined the walls, and groups of men loaded large rolls of uncut fabric into battered vans. Bundles of finished T-shirts, tops and other products lay on tables as workers hovered over sewing machines in cramped rooms where many windows remained closed even on a hot day. Hernandez and other sweatshop workers like Catalina Martinez later said they have turned to the Garment Workers Center to try to improve working conditions at their jobs. Martinez, who said she has seen employers hit workers for complaining, is learning English and computer skills in hopes of finding another job. "I would like people to be more interested about the people who are making their clothes," she said, "and to educate themselves about how their clothes are being made." These days are evil, and evilness pays no attention to the boudaries of a nation.In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 9, 2004

I'll get back to my main point soon, but there are so many current stories that help to illustrate the evil that surrounds us. This story is about Enron, and I believe represents a wider group of individuals and corporations that are stealing. The results of this stealing affects my children's education directly. "(CBS) The Department of Justice reportedly has thousands of hours of Enron employees recorded during the West Coast power crisis. Now, some in Congress want all the tapes released. "I want to make sure that no federal agency suppresses this information, makes the case harder for us to get relief," says U.S. Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash. After CBS broadcast the voices of Enron energy traders gloating over the crisis they helped create, more tapes were released. In one tape, an employee says, "You gotta think the economy is going to f------g get crushed, man. This is like a recession waiting to f-----g happen." The tapes show Enron tried to bring California to its knees. Elsewhere on the tapes, another employee says, "This is where California breaks." "Yeah, it sure does man," says another. And they proposed to do that by exporting energy out of the state so the company could drive up prices even more. "What we need to do is to help in the cause of, ah, downfall of California," an employee is heard saying on the tapes. "You guys need to pull your megawatts out of California on a daily basis." "They're on the ropes today," says another employee. "I exported like a f------g 400 megs." "Wow,'' says another employee, "f--k 'em, right!" Traders can be heard manipulating the market, using now-infamous schemes with names like death star, ricochet and fat boy. One employee is heard asking, "You want to do some fat boys or, or whatever, man, you know, take advantage of it." In fat boy, Enron traders used fake power sales to hide megawatts, shrinking the supply of energy and driving up prices. They also used the oldest trick in the book: lies. "It's called lies. It's all how well you can weave these lies together, Shari, alright, so," an employee is heard saying. The other employee says, "I feel like I'm being corrupted now." The first employee adds, "No, this is marketing," "OK.'' The tapes could affect dozens of cases already filed against the company by California Attorney General Bill Lockyer. "If these are ever heard by a jury, they're going get strung up," says Lockyer. After hearing the tapes, the state's two U.S. senators demanded an immediate $8.9 billion refund. At a recent hearing Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif. said, "All I can tell you is you have to listen to what's happening out there to ordinary people who you are responsible to help through this." With Enron and other major energy companies in bankruptcy, big refunds are unlikely. But the tapes could provide the evidence states and cities need to break contracts they were forced to sign at the height of the energy crisis."Please notice who is trying to stop the public from knowing the whole story, our government.In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 10, 2004

Do these things irritate you? Do you say to yourself, why bother with this thread? I've heard this on another site I participate in. I believe God works the same always and the example that are given in the OT apply to us sometimes as a lesson other times a warning. "Furthermore He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations that the house of Israel commits here, to make Me go far away from My sanctuary? Now turn again, you will see greater abominations." So He brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, there was a hole in the wall. Then He said to me, "Son of man, dig into the wall," and when I dug into the wall, there was a door. And He said to me, "Go in, and see the wicked abominations which they are doing there," So I went in and saw, and there-every sort of creeping thing, abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, protrayed all around on the walls. And there stood before them seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, and in their midst stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan. Each man had a censer in his hand, and thick cloud of incense went up....And He said to me, "Turn again, and you will see greater abominations that they are doing." So He brought me to the door of the north gate of the Lord's house; and to my dismay, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz...Then He said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? Turn again, you will see greater abominations than these." So He brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house: and there, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east, and they were worshipping the sun toward the east." Ezekiel 8Please notice that God asked Ezekiel to dig. Please notice that God revealed the darkness of that generation to a son of man. This son of man was dismayed by everything around him. Are we believers dismayed, do we dig to understand the evil around us? Or do we dig to bury our heads in the sand? The writer of Hebrews states, "For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Hebrew 5:13-14Do we desire to discern between good and evil as God reveals it or do we try not to meditate on what God's word teaches us in books like Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Amos, Hosea, Isaiah, and Revelation? In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 11, 2004

Another illustration:Commentary Impeaching unstable presidents By Stephen Crockett and Al Lawrence Online Journal Guest Writers Download a .pdf file for printing. Adobe Acrobat Reader required. Click here to download a free copy. June 10, 2004—"In meetings with top aides and administration officials, the President [sic] goes from quoting the Bible in one breath to obscene tantrums against the media, Democrats and others that he classifies as enemies of the state." If you thought the above quotation was a reference to the darkest days of Richard Nixon when he was facing impeachment over the crimes of Watergate, you would be wrong. This quotation is the second paragraph of a brilliant but frightening story by Doug Thompson, publisher of Capitol Hill Blue, headlined Bush?s Erratic Behavior Worries White House Aides. The story paints a picture of a paranoid and intolerant leader that cannot cope with any disagreements or opposing viewpoints. It paints a picture of a powerful man who does not trust the public he is supposed to serve. It gives an insiders view of how George Tenet was really fired for disagreeing with Bush. The Stalinist term "enemies of the state" for simple domestic political opponents is revealing. The article speaks of an ever-growing enemies list. Bush's vulgar language makes a mockery of his supposed Christian politics that would shame the true Christians among his supporters. Bush seems dangerously unstable based on this article. Indeed, Bush sounds like Nixon in the darkest days of Watergate when Congress was moving to impeach him. We are not talking the partisan frame-up of the Clinton impeachment era. We are talking about serious crimes and possible violations of the US Constitution that threaten the way the administration conducts our national business. These writers have been hearing behind the scenes rumbling about ticking time bombs that could bring down Bush before or (like Nixon) just after the presidential elections. The spending of $700 million federal tax dollars on Bush's Iraq invasion before Congress authorized it and supposedly before the decision was made is impeachable. There are credible reports that Bush knew about the plans to out the CIA agent wife of Ambassador Wilson and that Bush did nothing to stop it. This is certainly impeachable if true and likely criminal. Jail time for Bush would certainly not be unreasonable. We are at "war! " Enron's involvement in the California Energy crisis has just been confirmed. Enron's ties to Bush are beyond doubt. The actions of the Bush administration during this crisis should be investigated by a special prosecutor. Billions of dollars were stolen from taxpayers, consumers and businesses in California. These writers believe that the Cheney Energy Taskforce may have engaged in criminal collusion with big oil and energy companies in the very first year of the Bush administration. We believe this is why the Bush administration is hiding the details from the American public. Could the plans for the invasion of Iraq have begun in this taskforce? Were American oil companies marking up maps of Iraq and dividing the spoils of the then future war long before the 9-11 attacks? What dark secrets are being hidden from the American public? Republicans label any questioning of their actions or motives as "conspiracy theories," just like Nixon did in the 1970s. It worked then, briefly, and Nixon won re-election. After the election, we found that the charges were all true . . . and much worse was happening. There were hidden facts about Nixon that motivated his paranoia. Is it the same with Bush? These writers believe that Bush and his people will be revealed in time to be far more sinister than Nixon. We believe this is the most corrupt administration in the history of the nation. And Nixon did not have the police-state tools of the falsely named USA PATRIOT Act to use against his political enemies. We have joined along with other talk show hosts (Andy Johnson, Jerry Pippin, Guy James, Meria Heller, Peter Werbe and Radio Left) and others (Dems Online.net, ChewintheFat.com, Buzzflash.com and folksinger Yikes McGee) in endorsing the Democrats.com impeachment petition. Linda Ronstadt has called for Bush's impeachment. Among others calling for impeachment are John Dean and Ramsey Clark, both of whom directly experienced the Nixon era. Republicans would be wise to distance themselves from Bush and his policies as quickly as possible. Bush has begun a political meltdown that will make the Nixon collapse look mild in comparison. Both destroyed themselves for much the same reasons. by Stephen Crockett and Al Lawrence http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/061004Crockett-Lawrence/061004crockett-lawrence.html_________________When thou goest, it shall lead thee; When thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; And when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee. (Proverbs 6:22)"What is the truth? Is this propaganda or is it real. Dig as Ezekiel dug. Maybe the Lord will show you something.You may say, but I don't have the time. That may be true. If you are frustrated with all these worldly things. Try the path that Abraham traveled. Read Hebrews 11. There is peace for those who travel this path.In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 11, 2004

Another illustration:Using the Pen to Obscure the Sword "The State Department is scrambling to revise its annual report on global terrorism ... amid charges that the document is inaccurate and was politically manipulated," reports the Los Angeles Times. The most recent "Patterns of Global Terrorism" report, which claimed terrorist attacks declined 45% and minor terrorism events declined more than 90%, was touted by the Bush administration as proof that America's winning the "War on Terrorism." At its release, Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage called the report "clear evidence that we are prevailing." The corrected report will likely show an increase in significant terrorist incidents, according to experts. One State Department official called the errors "clerical," and likely due to the recent transfer of responsibility for the report from the CIA to the new Terrorist Threat Integration Center. Source: Los Angeles Times, June 9, 2004In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 15, 2004

Scripturally speaking:"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgement of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." Please notice the relationship of the kings with the harlot. If these are the last times what should we be looking for?In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 16, 2004

During the Reagan Administration, Osama Bin Laden and his associates were raised up and taught terrorist tactics by the United States. These men were trained in order to combat the Soviets who had just invaded Afganistan. Again look at the compromise that men make in their pursuits. During this time the US government brought many of these men to the United States for training. Access into the US was given through the issuing of student visas. Now we fast forward to the beginning of the present Bush Administration. When he took office, orders were given to FBI officials to stop any ongoing investigations into the Bin Laden family and other Saudi nationals. Listen to this report of some of the details that I have glossed over. http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/attack22.ram These days are evil, look to what the kings of this earth desire. In Christ Jeff_________________A highway shall be there, and a road, and it shall be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean shall not pass over it. But is shall be for others. Whoever walks the road, although a fool, shall not go astray. Isaiah 35:8

Rahman Jun 16, 2004

Brother Jeff words fail me to tell you how much I've enjoyed your posts on this topic ... I'm extremely analytical by nature, and there's nothing I love better than facts and history to expose the meaning of the handwriting on the wall: Mene, Mene, Tekel, and Parsin ...In a recent post to you on: Sister Diehl's topic of: Life Lessons (What Has God Been Teaching You?) ... I posted these words to you ...Wait to you come to the realization of this mind freeing truth ... "There is no goodness of the world" ...But this was before I read your background and the direction our Lord is taking you in ... Not only do you already know that there's no goodness of the world, you know why!What was it that our Lord said to you? ... Linkage ... Man I feel such an excitement in my spirit in regards your usage of our Lord ... May the Holy Spirit of God baptize you in His comfort and extraordinary peace as he continues to reveal to you the "TRUTH" ... And please keep sharing it! ... Amen

rookie Jun 17, 2004

Thankyou Brother for your exhortation,The following will be a two part illustration. We must step back in time to the early 1970's. Again this is an illustration of the battle between Capitalism and Communism. Many times men profess to support the notion, that they desire to create democracy through out the world. Yet there are stipulations which are not generally made public and yet in private men act to create a form of government which aligns with their interest. Again I am not taking sides, this is meant to show the results of decisions made by men of this world.BBC "The coup in which General Augusto Pinochet seized power in 1973 was the bloodiest in 20th century South America. More than 3,000 were killed in the September military onslaught, which began when fighter jets bombed the Presidential Palace while the democratically elected President, Salvador Allende, was still inside. It was the start of a 17-year rule by General Pinochet. But the bloodshed did not stop there. The general looked fearsome and talked tough. He promised wholesale reform of the political system which had allowed the annual rate of inflation to reach 150% in 1973. No time was wasted. The military government dissolved Congress, suspended the constitution and opposition parties were outlawed. Shortly after came a night-time curfew and strict limits on the media. Economic reform came in the shape of free-market principles. Nationalised companies were returned to their original owners, trade barriers were cut to encourage foreign imports and there was renewed emphasis on exports. General Pinochet had once articulated his goal as "to make Chile not a nation of proletarians, but a nation of entrepreneurs". Chilean society had been split by Allende's socialist rule, and so it was under the new right-wing leader. But with Pinochet in charge dissidents spoke out at their peril. The general's iron rule was underpinned by the tactics of brutal repression that saw thousands die and thousands more flee into exile. Others disappeared or were tortured. Many still respect Pinochet as a patriot. Particular targets were those who threatened unrest in the workplace and the shantytown dwellers who demanded better living conditions. In the absence of any official political opposition, the Roman Catholic Church assumed the role of moral critic. In 1976 the Pinochet regime's anti-democratic tactics were glimpsed by the wider world when a former Allende ambassador to the US was killed by a car bomb in Washington DC. There was little doubt that the murder was linked to the government in Santiago but attempts by the Americans to extradite the accused members of the Chilean military were reportedly rebuffed. Ten years later General Pinochet himself was the target of an assassination attempt, by the armed wing of the Communist Party. The dictator, however, escaped the attack on his motorcade with a few minor injuries. When in 1990 he stepped down, it was due to his own miscalculation. He gambled his one-man rule on a plebiscite and lost. The general was down but not out. The constitution he had been instrumental in drawing up guaranteed his continuation as army commander-in-chief until 1998. He has ensured the armed forces remain largely outside the control of the government - a condition that has made it difficult to bring the military to book for past human rights offences."I read an article in the Bakersfield paper that pretains to this time in history. I am out of time for now.In ChristJeff

crsschk Jun 17, 2004

As it relates to this:Please notice that God asked Ezekiel to dig. Please notice that God revealed the darkness of that generation to a son of man. This son of man was dismayed by everything around him. Are we believers dismayed, do we dig to understand the evil around us? Or do we dig to bury our heads in the sand? Isn't Ezekiel 8 that is quoted here refering to the "Lord's house" , "My sanctuary"?Isn't this about the temple?And if you were to draw a comparisson wouldn't it be more reflected upon the church, than on the world?

rookie Jun 17, 2004

Yes Mike,With clarification, the temple was polluted by the world then, just as the church is poluted with the world now. "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this, To visit the orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." James 1:27 That is the reason for developing this thread, to shine a light on the sources of darkness that I have witnessed that can lead the sheep astray. Just think about this one. The leaders of our government are trying to change the law which would allow the church to recieve tax payers money for social work. What happened to the evangelical movement in places like India. The church built all kinds of hospitals and orphanages, but there was very little everlasting fruit. In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 18, 2004

Brother Mike,In terms of chapter 8 of Ezekiel, there are three groups of individuals named. The first group are the 70 elders of Israel. The second group comprised of women. And the third group comprise of 25 men worshiping toward the east. Now God summarizes the activities of the house of Israel."And He said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it a trivial thing to the house of Judah to commit the abominations which they commit here? For they have filled the land with violence; then they have returned to provoke Me to anger. Indeed they put the branch to their nose." Ezekiel 8:17Please notice that the children of Israel filled the land with violence. What do we see around us? Does not everyone say we are God's special nation? Does not everyone say God bless America? And yet who really believes?If you continue on to chapter 9, God gives the command to mark on the forehead all of those "who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within." vs 5. Then God gives the command to destroy all those without the mark. If we claim God as a nation, then we must also be willing to be judged by God as a nation. In ChristJeff

crsschk Jun 18, 2004

I guess what I didn't say is the verses you quoted there were pertaining to the temple."Furthermore He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations that the house of Israel commits here, to make Me go far away from My sanctuary? Now turn again, you will see greater abominations." So He brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, there was a hole in the wall. Then He said to me, "Son of man, dig into the wall," and when I dug into the wall, there was a door. And He said to me, "Go in, and see the wicked abominations which they are doing there," So I went in and saw, and there-every sort of creeping thing, abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, protrayed all around on the walls. And there stood before them seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, and in their midst stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan. Each man had a censer in his hand, and thick cloud of incense went up....And He said to me, "Turn again, and you will see greater abominations that they are doing." So He brought me to the door of the north gate of the Lord's house; and to my dismay, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz...Then He said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? Turn again, you will see greater abominations than these." So He brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house: and there, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east, and they were worshipping the sun toward the east." Ezekiel 8And it was just a question not a statement nesscesarily. Thanks for the clarification.As to the other issues, to be honest, I don't know. These things very well may have some merit, but there is too much suspicion of agenda's and conspiracy theories for my taste. Time will tell and usually does.

rookie Jun 18, 2004

Brother Mike wrote:"As to the other issues, to be honest, I don't know. These things very well may have some merit, but there is too much suspicion of agenda's and conspiracy theories for my taste. Time will tell and usually does."I hear you, and I hear your caution. Is not the overwhelming opinion of this group of believers, the thought that, we are in the end times? So if this is true, what then can we as believers expect to see? Revelation speaks clearly in terms of certain events. The mark of the beast which is tied to the right to buy or sell will be part of this time. Men will be lovers of money, pleasure, and self glorification. There will be kings who commit adultery with the hoar. So if these are the end times should not the truth of Revelation begin to manifest itself?In ChristJeff

crsschk Jun 19, 2004

Hi Jeff,In complete agreement with you there, 2 Tim 3 in full force. Guess as to the specifics it is difficult to make more of them until they change from speculations to realities. Of course we are to watch and pray and I just chaff a little at a lot of the political posturing of all the pundints and their 'facts'. Do they really have all the information to make such bold claims?Of course their interests are going to be completely different than ours and it is without a doubt very interesting the things you are bringing forth here.

rookie Jun 19, 2004

Brother Mike,First, please do not feel as though I am personally seeking to badger you for the thoughts you have expressed. What I am seeking to do is to draw attention to the commonly held beliefs and thoughts of this day. Yes, I agree with you Mike in terms of conspiracy theories being floated around, most of which are false or tainted by the desires for which men strive to uphold. I am sure that some of the things that I have posted in this thread contain the depravity of man. But look at what surrounds us. We are at war justified by conspiracy plots. (ie Al Qaida and Saddam formed a conspiracy for the 9/11 event.) In terms of the concept, conspiracy, I see that it is a device to take peace away from men. "Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earthand that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword." Revelation 6:4 I believe we are seeing the fruits of this work in progress. As I develop this thread, I too am learning to express and see things which many times are based on the world's viewpoints. I am learning to go to Scripture as a means for discerning the times in which we live. So for me this is an exercise or work in progress and I hope those who read this will ask the hard questions, the confrontational questions. In Christ Jeff

rookie Jun 19, 2004

Part two of events that took place in Chile:The Bakersfield Californian, Sunday May 30, 2004Chile coup pleased Kissinger, NixonNewly released tapes raise questions about what role U.S. may have played, by Neil Lewis NY Times News ServiceFive days after a bloody coup on Sept. 11, 1973, that toppled Salvador Allende, the Marxist leader of Chile, Henry Kissinger chatted on the phone with President Richard Nixon about the event, which clearly had delighted both men. After telling the president that he might go to the season opener for the Washington Redskins, Kissinger exulted in the toppling of a pro-communist government and complained about how much the news media was lementing the event. The press's attitude, he said, was steeped in "unbelievable filthy hypocrisy."The conversation is part of a 20,000 page cache of transcripts of Kissinger's telephone conversations while he served as national security adviser and secretary of state that was released this week by the National Archives......The conversation with Nixon about the coup in Chile will probably add to the debate about Washington's role in that event. Kissinger has long maintained, both in congressional testimony and his memoirs, that the United States had no direct role in the coup but only sought to protect private enterprise in the country. In 1973 conversation, Kissinger tells the president that "of course the newspapers are bleeding because a pro-communist government has been overthrown." Nixon responds; "Isn't that something." To which Kissinger says that he and the president would have been hailed as heroes during "the Eisenhower period" of the mid-1950's. He complains that instead they are criticized for tolerating the aparthied regime in South Africa. Nixon then says; "Well our hand doesn't show on this one, though." Kissinger replies; "We didn't do it. I I mean we helped them." The transcript then says, with a long dash that seems to indicate that a word or words were deleted, "--created the conditions as great as possible."Kissinger tells Nixon that he is not bothered by the criticism but is merely reporting it. "You are reporting it because it is just typical of the crap we are up against," the president replies..."Please notice that a democratically elected goverment by that nations people was overthrown. Please notice the form of government that followed. Also please notice that this coup began on September 11, 1973.If one looks to the historical outcomes of many of the regime changes that have taken place, democracies have been replaced with military dictatorships. What do men really strive for?In ChristJeff

crsschk Jun 19, 2004

Brother Jeff,And I neither! I am of the opinion that I don't have all that much of one except that the vast majority of the news media can't be trusted, certainly on a broader scale man can't be trusted at all...And even something like: (ie Al Qaida and Saddam formed a conspiracy for the 9/11 event.) Think the jury is still out even right now and it may be many many years if ever that the truth be told. More so than just Saddam, but Iraq. I sincerely believe, hope and pray that our Governments keeps secret that which is nobody's business, (they better if we are to be a secure country) despite the so called 'rights' of journalists and others that have an agenda, an axe to grind a party to support, etc. etc.Recently read a scathing rebuke of the media in their handling of the prison abuse scandal which of course is an atrocity, but it may be even more so now because of their handling of it. We are in a time of war in more than one fashion and the media still insists on this bent for disclosure no matter how much fuel gets thrown on the flames or despite the fact that they by doing so are actually causing more deaths, more hostility's, more anger, hatred etc. And they could care less if they do. By the way, the letter was from Pat Boone.But as far as we are concerned brother, not in the least, we may be doing the same thing in different ways perhaps?;What I am seeking to do is to draw attention to the commonly held beliefs and thoughts of this day. What I think is of no certain consequence, it is rare that I am sure of much of what I think :-) As I develop this thread, I too am learning to express and see things which many times are based on the world's viewpoints. I am learning to go to Scripture as a means for discerning the times in which we live. So for me this is an exercise or work in progress and I hope those who read this will ask the hard questions, the confrontational questions. And brother I didn't see it as otherwise, could see where you were going and these just were the thoughts that came to mind. It's a great thread, it can give us all pause to see things in different light.

rookie Jun 20, 2004

Just some thoughts to ponder concerning this illustration of Chile. Whether it is Scripture or the events surrounding me, I am learning to seek to understand the precepts of God. How is God working? What does Scripture say?The first question, how did the Chilean Christian respond to the fact that a democratically elected government was replaced by a dictator?The second question, how should an American Christian react to the fact that his or her democratically elected government supported the overthrow of another nations government? Remember Nixon's comment, "Well our hand doesn't show on this one..." How many governments since the end of WW2 have we displaced? Thirdly, remember that the Soviets are the other half of the equation. For every act that the U.S. initiated, the Soviet were seeking to counteract. How should a Russian Christian live under his or her government?If you truly ponder these things, is there an answer? Or do you experience frustration and confusion. How would God allow someone like Joseph Stalin or Pinnochet or the Nazi's to rule over the people He loves? Does it matter to God whether His people live under a dictatorship or a democracy? In ChristJeff

Rahman Jun 22, 2004

Jeff you posted:((( If you truly ponder these things, is there an answer? Or do you experience frustration and confusion. How would God allow someone like Joseph Stalin or Pinnochet or the Nazi's to rule over the people He loves?Does it matter to God whether His people live under a dictatorship or a democracy? )))All heavy questions that I've wrestled with God about before, most recently regarding the Christians who died so horribly on 9-11, but have since even put that query to rest ... These type issues will eventually make your head hurt, and far worse can cause a fissure in one's faith that the devil will eventually slither thru ... Yes there is an answer ... God's answer, but sometimes to we mere mortals His answer just doesn't seem good enough ... Whenever I find myself questioning God to much I mostly remember His answers to Job, but more than that I begin to concentrate on such facts that all that we see is created from nothing, and that each time science thinks they've gotten to the origin of matter (so as to prove God a liar) they find only smaller particles suspended in their own tiny-er universe ... And then I think to myself who am I to question a Creator that awesome ... I do the same thing at night when I look up into the heavens, and then I think Lord whether I agree with your methodology or not, anyone with the kind of power to create the overkill of space (which it often times seems like to me) can run things, do things, and allow things however it pleases You ... All I know is that God excercises His will in two ways ... Soveriengnly (when He personally alters things to His plan) or permissively (when He allows the devil to do things that fit into His plan) ... So as weird as it may seem Stalin, Pinnochet, Hitler and the Nazi's apparently were allowed because they somehow fit into His plan, and He allowed Satan's introduction and usage of them, just like He's allowing Bin Laden to now be a scourage on the U.S. ... It's funny how we can read the OT and see how God used the kings and kingdoms of satan in His plan, but we kinda miss it in modern times ... I guess that's why when I asked a recent OT class how they saw God working today, no one could relate modern events to God's workings ...I think God more than cares about the hell we all go thru down here, and particularly that of His own called out people, that's why Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, but we all live in a world, place & time where sin, death and the devil hold sway ... If only Adam had just said NO! ... But he didn't, and so here we are ... Thank God for the saving grace of Jesus Christ that for so many of our brothers and sisters who have lived, and are presently living a hell on earth, that their eventual reward will be paradise ... And as an American Christian I thank Him even more, for we're only just now about to partake of what so many others in the world are already experiencing , the wrath of a devil prowling around as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, for now he knows his time is realllllllllllllly short.

rookie Jun 23, 2004

Good morning brother Rahman:You wrote: "It's funny how we can read the OT and see how God used the kings and kingdoms of satan in His plan, but we kinda miss it in modern times ... I guess that's why when I asked a recent OT class how they saw God working today, no one could relate modern events to God's workings ..."I believe many miss the significance of the OT and how it applies to our lives today. I believe if the believer's of today were well rooted in the OT much of the frustrations and worries they experience would disappear. I was once caught up in trying to figure out why America was not holding to my idealistic thoughts. I was once caught up in following sports teams and always being frustrated with the fact, well maybe they'll do better next year. Those things created, in a sense, a bondage to this world. Yet as I grow in Christ, these things disappear. I listened to a complilation recently which talked about the bondage of those who have not died to self. The end point was, if your dead who cares about the things of this world. So in this thread, my focus is to relive the frustrations of my past. The issues I raise are the questions of my past. I am trying to share the frustations that stirred deep inside of me. As I shared in the beginning, God took away the bondage by showing me the true extent of the depravity of men. As one's understanding of the depravity of man grows, one also sees the futility for which men strive. In my own life, this precept, total depravity, has set me free from my former frustations. Why should I worry about something which God's says is corrupt? Only God can change these things. I share in hope that others may find that all the answers are only found in God. In ChristJeff

crsschk Jun 23, 2004

Jeff, Rahman,Thank you both. Great stuff here.Jeff you said:I listened to a complilation recently which talked about the bondage of those who have not died to self. The end point was, if your dead who cares about the things of this world. Yes indeed, which compilation were you refering to? In a similar vein and pardon the redunancy, but Zac Ponnen touched on this as well, of the effects of 'being slandered, spit on, praised or cursed...what can a dead man do? He just's lie's there'. (loose paraphrase) Be it the things of this world or the effect's of this world:As one's understanding of the depravity of man grows, one also sees the futility for which men strive.Amen.

rookie Jun 23, 2004

Brother MikeThis is the compilation I spoke of:https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3134In ChristJeff

Rahman Jun 24, 2004

Greetings all!!Good evening brother Jeff ... you posted:((( I believe many miss the significance of the OT and how it applies to our lives today. I believe if the believer's of today were well rooted in the OT much of the frustrations and worries they experience would disappear. )))A thousand amens! ... I tell saints all the time that the one good thing being raised a Jehovah's Witness did for me was to make me extremely knowledgeable about the OT ... I love the OT so much, and have so many heroes in it that affect my "walking and talking" with God to this very day ... Without understanding the OT a saint can never become fully aware that "God's law makes one appreciate God's grace grace, but true appreciation of God's grace makes one want to keep God's law" Brother Jeff you posted:((( So in this thread, my focus is to relive the frustrations of my past. The issues I raise are the questions of my past. I am trying to share the frustations that stirred deep inside of me. As I shared in the beginning, God took away the bondage by showing me the true extent of the depravity of men. As one's understanding of the depravity of man grows, one also sees the futility for which men strive. In my own life, this precept, total depravity, has set me free from my former frustations. Why should I worry about something which God's says is corrupt? Only God can change these things.I share in hope that others may find that all the answers are only found in God. )))I agree with you 100%, only God can change these things ... Amen, and bless his holy name that He does it one man (person) at a time, of which you, and I, and so many others on this SI forum are become part of so great a cloud of witnesses who can testify to our Jesus changing us from corruption to incorruption ... Oh bless His holy, and miraculous name! ... Thank you Jesus!Keep sharing brother Jeff ... keep sharing, as that's what our Master wants us to do ... What's the use of struggling and overcoming, if we don't share/example to others that we're a witness to the "more than conquerors" empowerment of our Lord and SaviorJesus Christ ... PS - Bro. Jeff where exactly on SI is the compilation sermon found? ... Thanks!

rookie Jun 24, 2004

Brother Rahman,Look to the download section on this site. Look to the bottom right corner under the topic of misc. audio. First selection is compilations. God Bless allIn ChristJeff

Rahman Jun 24, 2004

Thanks brother Jeff ... got it!

rookie Jun 25, 2004

I was watching a news story yesterday on Luara Bush. What I hadn't realized is that she supports Roe vs Wade. Someone on another site did the research for me. Here is another illustration.Laura Bush's abortion comments 'personal views,' Fleischer says Laura Bush is interviewed in Washington on Friday January 19, 2001 Web posted at: 9:12 p.m. EST (0212 GMT)WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Laura Bush, the wife of President-elect George W. Bush, said Friday she believes the country could do more to minimize the number of abortions, but also indicated she doesn't believe the 1973 Supreme Court ruling legalizing abortions should be overturned. "No, I don't think it should be overturned," Mrs. Bush told NBC's "Today Show" when asked about the high court's decision, Roe vs. Wade. Mrs. Bush did not respond in the interview when asked if a woman had a right to an abortion. Instead, she said the country should do "what we can to limit the number of abortions, to try to reduce the number of abortions in a lot of ways, and that is, by talking about responsibility with girls and boys, by teaching abstinence, having abstinence classes everywhere in schools and in churches and in Sunday school," she replied. "I agree with my husband that we should try to reduce the number of abortions in our country by doing all those things," she said. The Bush team refused to comment on the first lady-to-be's statements. Ari Fleischer, Bush's designated press secretary, said he would not discuss the "personal views" of the president-elect's family. During the presidential campaign, Bush did not push for a constitutional amendment to ban abortion, even though he supports one except in cases of rape or incest, or to protect the life of the mother. Bush said he didn't believe there was enough public support for such a move. Mrs. Bush said the country should do "what we can to limit the number of abortions" but that Roe v. Wade shouldn't be overturned In January 2000, Bush said he thought that Roe vs. Wade "was a reach" and that it "overstepped constitutional bounds." Noelia Rodriguez, Mrs. Bush's press secretary, said that Mrs. Bush's position on abortion is that there should be education on issues, such as abstinence and responsible behavior, to reduce the number of abortions, and only when pressed, did she answer the question on the landmark Roe vs. Wade ruling. When asked if Mrs. Bush supports a woman's right to choose, Rodriguez said, "She already addressed the question." "Everything Mrs. Bush wants said on this topic has been said," Rodriguez added. Later Friday in an interview on CNN, Mrs. Bush said she intends to use her position as first lady to put a focus on education. "I will take a high profile, at least a high interest, in education issues. I think education is the most important issue in our country," said Mrs. Bush, who earned her masters degree in library science and taught school from 1968-77. Education is "the great equalizer," she said. "It's the one way that every single person has a chance to succeed." Speaking with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Mrs. Bush said she never imagined when she married Bush that he would rise to the highest position in the land. Not only that, but she said she "would have never guessed then that his dad would have become vice president or president." "People use to say, Do you think George will get back into politics?' and I'd joke, 'Maybe when we're 50.' And as it turned out, we were pretty close to 50 when he ran for governor." Here is an example of putting one's faith in education. I was once a proponent of education. Another false path. In ChristJeff

Rahman Jun 25, 2004

You know brother Jeff I was watching President Bush's rebuttal to the swipes Ron Reagan Jr. made at his dad's funeral regarding Bush's overt mixing of his faith and politics, where Pres. Bush stated that like Thomas Jefferson he also believed in seperation of church and state, and instantly I thought "what association does light have with darkness"? ... George Bush espouses to being a born again believer, while Thomas Jefferson was a self serving diest who literally whittled down an actual Bible to the scriptures he agreed with while discarding the rest ... I think President Bush would do well to research the founding fathers beliefs before he agrees with them ...It's a real shame that our presidents are so much like the so called good kings of the divided kingdom of Israel back in ancient times, they too just couldn't seem to bring themselves to tearing down ALL the high places of Baal for fear that the people might rebel, and for that both kingdoms eventually secumbed to God's judgement of destruction ... What is to be, will be.

rookie Jun 25, 2004

Amen Brother Rahman,In my own life, as a father, before I became a believer, I was striving to provide the best education that I could contemplate for my new son. At that point in my life I viewed education as the cure all for man's miseries. In this article about Luara Bush, I see myself in her as she is now. I recognize our common solution to man's problems. I now thank God for opening my eyes to the only living water that has ever existed. May we not be accused of using broken cisterns that cannot hold that water.In ChristJeff

Matthew2323 Jun 25, 2004

Rahman,Was President Bush saying that his idea of "separation of church and state" meant freedom OF religion or freedom FROM religion? Jefferson (whatever religion he was) and the other Founders (mostly Christians) taught "separation of church and state" to mean freedom OF religion. It is the modern PC slant that renders the phrase to mean freedom FROM religion. From the article, what did you gather our President to be meaning?It's a real shame that our presidents are so much like the so called good kings of the divided kingdom of Israel back in ancient times, they too just couldn't seem to bring themselves to tearing down ALL the high places of Baal for fear that the people might rebel, and for that both kingdoms eventually secumbed to God's judgement of destruction Amen! (Unfortunately!) I was reading an article, I think from the Vision Forum, about how too many Christians are simply supporting President Bush uncritically and making excuses for the policies he makes that contradict Scripture. The author made the point that if Clinton or another liberal made some of the same decisions, how would you respond? He really stressed not having a double standard. I was really convicted by the article. I now pray for our President to stand for the Truth regardless of the cost. As I think about it more, President Bush is even more accountable because he claims the cross. Who, like John the Baptist will rise to tell him of his errors?!Jeff / Rahman, How do you pray for our President?Jeff, Thanks for the post about the limits of education. I remember holding that same belief you once held until I was confronted with those who smoke cigarettes. How many people who smoke, know it is harmful, and yet continue this destructive habit day in and day out? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.God bless you both and have a blessed weekend,Matthew

rookie Jun 28, 2004

Matthew 2323,I am guilty of not praying for the president. I have no hope in the ways of this world. And thus, I have strayed from the path which calls us to pray that we might live in peace. I see no peace, only the seas of humanity being thrashed to and fro. I have no hope in any political party. In another thought, VP Cheney, I just tried to research his religious beliefs. I haven't been successful yet. In ChristJeff

Rahman Jun 28, 2004

Brother Matthew you posted:((( Was President Bush saying that his idea of "separation of church and state" meant freedom OF religion or freedom FROM religion? )))You know brother Matt it just dawned on me that's what he meant, "freedom of religion", so I guess President Bush was ok in agreeing with Jefferson on that ... I just wish that we could have one Christian President who would get in office and do and say exactly what he knows/believes the Bible states/God desires, without thought to his political career, or whether he'd be elcted to another term ... I think it's just to much to hope for ... I've heard some say that "it's good to be the king", but I don't think so especially if one is a Christian ... Kings, presidents, prime ministers, etc., seem to have to do an awful lot of compromising of their Christian beliefs/principals in order to hold an office of rule over mankind ... That's why I instantly thought of the Kings of Israel and Judah, who just didn't seem to be able to be 100% for the Lord in political office.Brother Matthew you also posted:((( I now pray for our President to stand for the Truth regardless of the cost. As I think about it more, President Bush is even more accountable because he claims the cross. Who, like John the Baptist will rise to tell him of his errors?! )))I totally agree with you on the "even more accountable" issue regarding the president's claim to the cross, and I just hope that he understands this ... I'm thinking that it must be becoming clearer to him everyday what he's gotten himself into in that God will not have us ignorant, and since He is not a respector of persons I'm sure the Holy Spirit is talking to president Bush - now as to will the president listen, and be bold enough to speak/do the mind/will of Christ ...And your second point is the most poignant ... WHERE IS GOD'S SPOKESMAN FOR THIS AGE???? ... One would think that with all the religious right preachers, etc. hanging around the president one of them would have the unction to call it like the Lord shows it to them ... This is where I feel a certain despair creeping into my spirit, and one that I know I've got to keep check on for I've come to far by faith to allow a faltering now ... But I'd be less than truthful if I didn't confess that I'm weary of waiting to see the hand of our God move mightly ...Brother Matthew you also posted:((( Jeff / Rahman, How do you pray for our President? )))I just ask the Lord to direct Pres. Bush in the way that he should go and then to give him the boldness to do so, and also to bring him to repentance in any areas where he's made to realize that he's made errors, both politically and personally ... I used to pray even longer, more indepth prayers concerning Christ Church and it's leaders, revival and America and it's leaders, but I'm secumbing to weariness (which has now taken up much of my prayer time in praying for my own strength because I feel myself becoming weary in well doing, even though I know it's always darkest before the dawn) ... Pray for me, as I for you ... Amen

Rahman Jun 28, 2004

Brother Jeff in answer to brother Matthew's question of how do we pray for president Bush you posted:((( I am guilty of not praying for the president. I have no hope in the ways of this world. And thus, I have strayed from the path which calls us to pray that we might live in peace. I see no peace, only the seas of humanity being thrashed to and fro. I have no hope in any political party. )))Brother Jeff (please correct me if I'm wrong) you sound as if you're already at a place that I'm just now arriving to, a "weary" place when it comes to any type of positive expectation of any "repentant" good from humanity ... I've been trying my level best not to get to such a place in my outlook on the unsaved, and especially with my outlook on the saved ... It's like with my discussions with sister Chanin on "Christian City" ... I'm literally sick to gagging of Churchianity with it's commitees, programmed worship services, $150.00 choir robes, demi-god/CEO preachers, and the like, but I know that I'm not supposed to abandon them, especially in prayer ... But God knows, at this point, I sure want to ... So let me table this question ...Would you place our scriptural admonition to pray for our political leaders, under the same explicit scriptural instruction to "be not weary in well doing" ? ... It's this admonition that has fueled me for far longer than I've wanted to in praying for Christ Church and it's leaders, revival, and America and it's leaders, but as I've already stated to our Lord, "I'm tired, for it seems to only be getting worse, and nobody seems to be listening" ... I still pray, but it certainly isn't with the same fire, fervor and hours, as say even a year ago ... I long to see/experience/participate in the mighty movement of the Holy Ghost, that He's been telling me for 20 years is coming ... It's been glimpses of that little hand shaped cloud that has kept me going for years, but I long to stand in a full fledged thunder storm of a downpour of the Holy Ghost, where I'm no longer just peculiar by myself ... Pray for me, as I for you ... Amen

rookie Jun 28, 2004

Brother Rahman,"be not weary in doing well" You have seen my heart and I am weary many times, yet when I see the futility of men I also remember the work the Lord did in me to bring me to a deeper understanding of the depravity of man. We as evangelicals, often preach to our brothers and sisters about this doctrine. Yet, I believe we often miss all the implications or applications of this doctrine in day to day life.Secondly, during President Reagan's week of sevices, I saw a film clip covering the meetings between Gorbachov and himself. There was a point in this clip where Gorbachov spoke candidly about his negotiations with Reagan. The Soviet president said something to this effect, "For some strange reason I believed that President Reagan was speaking the truth." Gorbachov said it in a way that he seemed puzzled by this event. As I watched this clip, I believe God was behind this reconciliation of two men who ruled the world at one time. So I am weary most of the time, but every now and then I see His hand working. It is these times that give me a refreshing. Thankyou for your exhortation, Brother Rahman.God Bless Jeff

rookie Jun 28, 2004

Here is a story from the BBC. Are the nations of this era like those of old who sacrificed their babies to Moloch?"A new type of ultrasound scan has produced the vivid pictures of a 12 week-old foetus "walking" in the womb. The new images also show foetuses apparently yawning and rubbing its eyes. The scans, pioneered by Professor Stuart Campbell at London's Create Health Clinic, are much more detailed than conventional ultrasound. Professor Campbell has previously released images of unborn babies appearing to smile. He has compiled a book of the images called Watch Me Grow. Conventional ultrasound, usually offered to mothers at 12 and 20 weeks, produces 2D images of the developing foetus. These are very useful for helping doctors to measure and assess the growth of the foetus, but convey very little information about behaviour. Professor Campbell has perfected a technique which not only produces detailed 3D images, but records foetal movement in real time. He says his work has been able to show for the first time that the unborn baby engages in complex behaviour from an early stage of its development. Professor Campbell told the BBC: "This is a new science for understanding and mapping out the behaviour of the baby. "Maybe in the future it will help us understand and diagnose genetic disease, maybe even conditions like cerebral palsy which puzzles the medical profession as to why it occurs." The images have shown: From 12 weeks, unborn babies can stretch, kick and leap around the womb - well before the mother can feel movement From 18 weeks, they can open their eyes although most doctors thought eyelids were fused until 26 weeks From 26 weeks, they appear to exhibit a whole range of typical baby behaviour and moods, including scratching, smiling, crying, hiccoughing, and sucking. Until recently it was thought that smiling did not start until six weeks after birth.An hour long session using the new technology, which is not yet available on the NHS, costs £275."30,000,000 children have died in the U.S. alone. How many have died world wide? "Professing to be wise they became fools," Romans 1:22In ChristJeff

sermonindex Jun 28, 2004

Photo Moment: Ultrasound Advances Show Babies Smile in the Womb!This image captured using a 4D scanner suggests that unborn babies exhibit facial expressions as a reflex in preparation for birth, obstetrician Professor Stuart Campbell said in London, Friday, Sept. 12, 2003. Create Healthcare who released this image Friday, claim that recent advances in ultrasound scanning have shown that babies smile, cry and blink inside the womb. (AP Photo/Create Healthcare/PA)

sermonindex Jun 28, 2004

A dear brother just showed me this picture and felt it might convict some people by seeing it. It really shows that there is unique life with character in every womb and it is a terrible tragedy to kill a baby.

rookie Jun 30, 2004

Getting back to the time of post WW 2.In a previous article: "One of the main weapons in Hitler's Nazi organization was the use of manipulating the perceptions of the population. This was the first large scale use of propaganda. The Nazi called it; Weltanshauungkrieg. This word can be translated; world view warefare."Following the WW 2, the United States found that it could not go back to the ways of isolationism. The Cold War intensified during this post war period. There were sporadic military interventions conducted by the Soviet and U.S. However, the main battle was waged in the way of propaganda campaigns. The world had seen first hand how the Nazi's "world view warefare,' had succeeded in mobilizing the German nation. One can see the fruits of this type of warefare by looking to how the German people were blinded by pride. I saw a documentary once that gave a graphic example of how thoroughly successful this mind control warefare influenced the common man. During the holocaust, the skins of the Jewish people were used in the manufacture of lamp shades. We look back to this time in history and ask, how could this happen? How could people blindly fall into such a deception? This kind of mind or thought perception contol was imported into the U.S. as I have explained in previous posts. The CIA continued in the development of this type of warefare. Remember, from a previous post, that President Eisenhower warned the American people of the military-industrial complex. The point I want to make here is the fact that the results of this mind control research did not stay within the jusidiction of the CIA. The industrial component of the alliance of these two entities also benefited from this research. The private sector took this research and applied it to the marketplace. Today, one third of all money spent by U.S. corporations, is spent on advertising. Meditate on this phenomena. Today men spend vast amounts of capital on something that produces nothing physical. Do you see the power of the unseen? What controls our thoughts? What is it that creates the desires of our hearts? In Revelation, John writes about an entity called Babylon. He writes about the merchants. He writes about the kings who commit fornication with the whore. What do the hearts of the world worship? In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 30, 2004

Continuing along the same line of thought:Zbigniew Brzezinshi, in his book, The Grand Chessboard, develops a strategy for the acquistion of world supremacy. In the book he outlines how the United States should work to maintain world supremacy. One of the primary means stressed for accomplishing this task is to control the minds of people throughout the world. He first gives historic examples of this method.Pages 10-11,"At the empire's apex, the Roman legions deployed abroad numbered no less than three hundred thousand men--a remarkable force, made all the more lethal by the Roman superiority in tactics and armaments as well as by the center's ability to direct relatively rapid deployment. (It is striking to not that in 1996, the vastly more populous supreme power, America, was protecting the outer reaches of its dominion by stationing 296,000 professional soldiers overseas.) Rome's imperial power, however, was also derived from an important psychological reality. Civis Romanus sum--"I am a Roman citizen"--was the highest possible self-definition, a source of pride, and an aspiration for many. Eventually granted even to those not of Roman birth, the exaulted status of the Roman citizen was an expression of cultural superiority that justified the imperial power's sense of mission. It not only legitimated Rome's rule, but it also inclined those subject to it to desire assimilation and inclusion in the imperial structure. Cultural superiority, taken for granted by the rulers and conceded by the subjugated, thus reinforces imperial power." Paul gives us a glimpse into this phenomena, when he choose to claim the rights of being a Roman citizen. These rights afforded him a level of treatment not held by the masses around him. The appeal or the pull of belonging to something such as the thought of a superior culture causes blindness to the truth. The Nazi's proclaimed that they were the superior race. The Jews of Jesus' time on earth fell for basically the same reason. They prided themselves in the fact that they shared in the genealogy of the twelve tribes of Jacob. John the Baptist spoke to this phenomena, "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance. And do not think to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father." For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones." Matthew 3:8-9 In another place, the Pharisees brougth compliance about in the same way. "His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had agreed already that if anyone confessed that He was Christ, he would be put out of the synagogue." Mark 9:22What does it mean to accept the mark of the beast?In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Jul 1, 2004

I believe that the acceptance of the mark of beast is 2 fold. part of it has to do with the system which will come into play in which one has to have a certain mark in order to buy and sell goods, basically a license to survive. the other is the acceptance of the power of the beast as supreme. anyone else have any ideas?

rookie Jul 1, 2004

Again from Zbigniew Brzenzinski."Cultural domination has been an underappreciated facet of American global power. Whatever one may think of its aesthetic values, America's mass culture exercises a magnetic appeal, especially on the world's youth. Its attraction may be derived from the hedonistic quality of the lifestyle it projects, but its global appeal is undeniable. American television programs and films account for about three-fourths of the global market. American popular music is equally dominant, while American fads, eating habits, and even clothing are increasingly imitated worldwide. The language of the Internet is English, and an overwhelming proportion of the global computer chatter also originates from America, influencing the content of global conversation. Lastly, America has become a Mecca for those seeking advanced education, with approximately half a million foreign students flocking to the United States, with many of the ablest never returning home. Graduates from American universities are to be found in almost every Cabinet on every continent." Page 25Do you see the idea of cultural superiority and how it can lead to blindness? Do you see how easily we have accepted this role in the world? Do you see how nationalism tugs at our hearts? For what reason does this country strive?In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Jul 1, 2004

we strive to be the best at everything. say would the blindness you're talking about be blindness to all else except becoming the best at all costs?

rookie Jul 2, 2004

Brother Ironman,I believe some are motivated by the desire to be the best at what they do. They strive with all their might to obtain that for which they seek. The question still remains, does the outcome of their efforts glorify men or God. In the end times men will worship themselves. They will look to the world for their glory. The coming anti-christ will set himself before the world as savior. I have recently thought about what Hitler represents in accordance to Scripture. He promoted the idea of the master race. He promoted the idea that the German culture was superior to all others. He promoted the idea that he was Germany's father. I marvel at the blindness of the German people. Yet, what do we hear today? Is there an element of cultural superiority promoted within our country. I wonder about the idea that many attribute the idea of cultural superiority with Christianity. Yet, if we look at to our present leaders, the President professes Christ. Yet look at all the people he has surrounded himself with. Are they Christian? If Bush died today, our Vise-President Cheney would take over. No one have been able to tell me what Cheney is. Does anyone in this forum have a clue?It is not my intention to claim that our government represents the anti-christ. It is my intention to point out how easily men are swayed by the empty philosophies of this world. Out of time,In ChristJeff

Rahman Jul 2, 2004

Brother Jeff you posted:((( Do you see the idea of cultural superiority and how it can lead to blindness? Do you see how easily we have accepted this role in the world? Do you see how nationalism tugs at our hearts? For what reason does this country strive? )))Then you also posted:((( Is there an element of cultural superiority promoted within our country. )))You know brother Jeff the company I work for was taken over by a British company three years back, and I learned something about American nationalism that I'd not known before ... I was under the impression that since America and Britain were such allies governmentally that it would be a cinch to work for the Brits ... Not so, for I got a rude awakening about how many Brits (as well as other countries) feel about America, and Americans ... You'd be surprised at how many really nasty jokes other countries have about this one, and then this dawned on me, when you're the planets big dog superiority doesn't have to be promoted domestically or internationally, it's simply taken for granted and therefore subconsciously projected, it's institutional ... I told one of the Brits who was doing some rather disrepectful things with Old Glory that the reason why most Americans have few readily available nasty jokes about most other nations is that we very rarely even think of them unless they produce something that Madison Ave. has convinced us is worth buying ... I don't think that America or Americans are so much guilty of having a superiority complex as it is of a reverse pride of not having an national feelings of inferiority at all ... One dosen't have to promote one self as the standard if the rest of the world has placed one on the pedestal of being the standard ... I'd say that America and Americans feel inferior to no other nation, but many other nations, even though they'll deny it feel inferior to America, and therein lies the rub ... I don't think America or American's set out to propagandize the rest of the planet with a preset notion/message of its own cultural superiority, I don't think that's our blindness, our blindness is now a really mournfully misguided, schizophrenic, still meritoriously based on our Puritan heritage of yesteryear, belief in our continued moral and ethical superiority ... I think this is the blindness that most Americans believe, and will readily propagandize regardless of all the evidence pointing to the cesspool of ethical, moral and double standard corruption this nation has become ... It amazes me that most Americans, even though neck deep in all types of sin that offend God and the really less fortunate in this world can still utter regarding 9/11 that we're innocent ... Now to me, that's America's ultimate blindness, the fact that we can't see that there's some truth to our have becoming "the great satan" in a way far less disruptive than say the way of a Hitler or a Stalin, but putrifying non the less.America is made up of so many diverse cultures until most Americans glory in the meaning of their own ethnic culture at the expense of glorying in an collective American nationalism ... I don't think the majority of Americans (especially today) for the most part are especially nationalistic or patriotic ... I think Americans are only interested in, and strive for three things, their own individual pursuits of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness" which satan has transformed into modern America's new religion ... I believe that most Americans reaction to 9/11 wasn't really birthed out of some new found sense of nationalism, or patriotism, but was due to the fact that those crazy terrorist put one major crater in our broad and spacious road of hedonism, and threaten to do so again ... Praise God we're free from any of these encumbrances. All I can say brother Jeff is that these are exciting times we're living i ... You, I and all the rest of we Christian's on this planet could soon witness a movement of the Holy Ghost unprecedented on the Church of Christ, we could soon be waist deep into His final harvest, for where things were once at a simmer in our world, the bubbles I see popping to the top tells me that soon comes a vigorous boil! ... Maranatha ... come quickly Lord Jesus ... Amen

rookie Jul 2, 2004

Brother Rahman,I agree with your perception of the common man and what drives him or her. I agree with the notion of the immence diversity that exists within the U.S. Most are blind because of the pedestal mentality. I agree with your perception:"I think Americans are only interested in, and strive for three things, their own individual pursuits of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness" which satan has transformed into modern America's new religion ..."However, I also believe there is the promotion of what you have identified above. The "pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness which satan has transformed into modern America's new religion" is the substance for which many people work to create for the masses. The world promotes it's own. Just think back to the book of Daniel. The ark angel Gabriel was delayed for some 20 days, because he was busy fighting the prince of Persia. In these last days the efforts of satan are going to be more pronounced, more focused, more rapid as in the birth pains of a woman. I like your statement: " for where things were once at a simmer in our world, the bubbles I see popping to the top tells me that soon comes a vigorous boil! ...I have an article that talks about one type of bubble.In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 2, 2004

Please make a special note of the quote attributed to John Galbraith.Here is an article from the Bakersfield paper: Title: Ignore financial history at own peril, by Andrew Wahrenbrock Readers of this column might be pleased to learn of my ongoing quest for balance via a May 20 conference call with economist Art Laffer (Laffer Associates). The tone was overwhelmingly market/economy friendly. Laffer is perhaps best known for the "Laffer Curve" adopted in large degree by the Reagan administration. The story goes that Laffer drew the curve on the back of a napkin at a Washington, D.C., restaurant for a couple of administration bigwigs, and the rest is history... The summary of the call promotes the idea that the dollar's slike is about over, rates are generally where they should be (ten-year Treasury, short-term will increase) and the Fed is correctly managing the money supply. Break out your sunglasses. Those that may consider this writer's outlook at times "negative" or "bearish," pay attention here. Steve Puetz of the Steve Puetz Letter writes: "Recognizing the formation of a bubble, central banks usually burst a bubble before it gets completely out of control. But the Fed has proven to be the exception. The Fed has let the multitude of bubbles form with complete indifference. The damage from a bubble is always in future years. Given the magnitude of the current bubbles, the damage will likely translate into a total collapse of the U.S. financial system. In short, andy economy based on ever-expanding credit is doomed in the long-term. The size of the bubble dictates the following pain. Judging by the current bubbles, the coming pain will be unprecedented. The Great Depression of the 1930's will be mild in comparison." Ken Gerbino's recent essay, "The Fed Can't Stop Inflation," points out: "Starting in 2000, the U.S. has created $1.5 trillion new dollars (M2), and has cumulative trade deficit of $1.6 trillion... Here is the reality check on the above mentioned $1.5 trillion created from the year 2000. First, I will refer to the U.S. money supply (M2) in 1980. It was $1.5 trillion. All the tangible wealth in the United States, every bridge, office building, home, car, television, plane, everything was created over 200 years with a money supply that ended up at $1.5 trillion. 200 years of blood, sweat and tears to create all the tangible wealth in the U.S. Our country in a bit more than four years has created the same amount of money! $1.5 trillion. This money has not created anything near the tangible wealth of the first 200 years $1.5 trillion. This is currency depreciation on a grand scale." While you're dwelling on the significance of it all, a word about U.S. debt outstanding. The figure has increased by $11.6 trillion (45 percent) since 2000, to $37,247 trillion through the first quarter 2004. In 1980, the figure was $4.28 trillion. Crystal clear is the evidence that post-2000, the massive amounts of money supply and debt growth has produced an anemic economy. What has been produced is the universe's biggest real estate bubble. Investors hold stocks and bonds in this environment, but why? For exercise, simply imagine the economic performance during the past four-plus years without the currency debsement and credit growth. I'm reminded here of Howard Ruff's line that inflation is not rising prices, it's falling money. We are privy to this phenomenon via the daily drama of oil prices. China, India, terrorists, we're running out, refinery capacity, etc., etc. confront us daily as to why oil is high, and rising. The fact of the matter is that that's hardly the point. The simple reality is that the Fed is monetizing oil by its continued excess money growth. Inflation is being institutionalized, before your very eyes.... I close with a quote from John K. Galbraith's 1955 work, The Great Crash: 1929; "Even in such a time of madness as the late twenties, a great many men on Wall Street remained quite sane. But they also remained very quiet. The sense of responsibility in the financial community for the community as a whole is not small. It is nearly nil. Perhaps this is inherent. In a community where the primary concern is making money, one of the necessary rules is to live and let live. To speak out against madness may be to ruin those who succumbed to it. So the wise in Wall Street are nearly always silent. The foolish thus have the field to themselves." Do you see the failure of men's systems? Do you see how the substance for which men strive causes them to compromise their God given conscience. The only path where truth does not need to be hidden is the path that leads to Jesus. We will not have to compromise for the treasure that is in Him. For what do we seek? In Christ Jeff

IRONMAN Jul 6, 2004

I agree with you there and while I don't know what the outcome of all these enterprises will be, God will judge accordingly. You're also right in saying that men will worship themselves, look at how we behave. We always want things our way, when we want them irrespective of the consequences. We have become so selfish and self-centered that we are squeezing God out of our lives.Before a great fall, there is always great pride so it would be wise of us to evaluate ourselves to see that we are humble because humility is something God seeks in us all. Unless of course we want to be moved from one of the high chairs at that heavenly banquet to one of the lower ones. you know, I don't know what cheney's faith is, or any of the others in the cabinet...I think men are being swayed more and more by these philosophies because they sound good and what the word says is fast becoming politically incorrect because it offends people. I suppose one would be offended if the word was speaking against something one was doing. these philosophies are like cake, sweet to eat but it'll get you fat and a mouth full of cavities given time.

rookie Jul 7, 2004

I wrote in a recent post: "Today, one third of all money spent by U.S. corporations, is spent on advertising. Meditate on this phenomena. Today men spend vast amounts of capital on something that produces nothing physical. Do you see the power of the unseen? What controls our thoughts? What is it that creates the desires of our hearts?"The nature of our economic system has changed over the decades. Inovation, natural resources, and manufacturing created the wealth of the country. The mid 1960's marked the apex of that wealth creation. Since then, things have changed. As I stated above, advertising, a form of thought creation, a form of idol creation has evolved to capture the minds of those who would believe. Below is a list that demonstrates the shift of our economy.Taken from the book of Wealth and Democracy by Kevin Phillipspage 85, The Thirty Richest Americans and Families of 1968Mellon Family (oil, finance), Rockerfeller Family (oil, finance), J. Paul Getty (oil), Howard Hughes (aircraft), H. L. Hunt (oil), Edwin H. Land (Polaroid), D. K. Ludwig (shipping), Dupont Family (chemicals), Ford Family (cars), Whitney Family (oil, investments), Houghton Family (Corning Glass), N. Bunker Hunt (oil), J. D. MacArthur (Insurance), W. L. Mcknight (conglomerate), Charles Mott (cars), R. E. Smith (oil) H. F. Ahmanson (banking), Charles Allen (banking) V. W. Clark (cosmetics) John T. Dorrance (Campbell Soups), Charles Engelhard (mining), Sherman Fairchild (technology), Leon Hess (oil), W. R. Hewlet (computers), David Packard (computers), Joseph Kennedy (investments), Eli Lilly (pharmaceuticals), Forrest Mars (candy) S.I. Newhouse (media), Marjorie M. Post (food).There is one person in this list that became wealthy in the media industry. Now look to the 1992 list.Walton Family (retailing), Mars Family (food), Dupont Family (chemicals, inheritance), S.I. and Donald Newhouse (media), Bill Gates (software), Bass Family (oil, inheritance), Mellon-Scaife Family (inheritance), Rockefeller Family (oil, inheritance) John Kluge (media), Warren Buffet (investments), Cox Family (media), Sumner Redstone (media), Pritzker Family (real estate, investments), Dorrance Family (food), Koch Family (oil), Hunt Family (oil), Hearst Family (media), Ron Perelman (investments), Ted Arison (shipping), Paul Allen (software), Laurence and Preston Tisch (media), Rupert Murdoch (media), Richard DeVos (marketing), Jay Van Amdel (Marketing), Phipps Family (inheritance), Anneberg Family (media), Ross Perot (computer services), Edgar Bronfman (liquor and investments), H. L. Hillman (investments), Ted Turner (media). Please notice that in this top 30 list, 11 families or men have acquired their wealth through media and marketing. The nature of our economy has changed. The economy that produced the greatest wealth that this nation has ever seen ended back in the 1960's. What is product of this new economy we live in? Look at the power of the media. Money has flowed into the creation of ideas and perceptions. What are the nature of these ideas and thoughts? Do they point man to God? Or do they glorify men? In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 8, 2004

Many of these posts, whether writing about the Nazis or the media, have one underlying principle. I am trying to bring to light the massive effort being expended to influence, and shape the perceptions of the common person. This effort is not a conspiracy brought about by a few. But rather it is a general massive movement within our generation. Remember, we as a generation have only experienced a very short time in His story. Many things we believe to be true are based only upon the wisdom of the generation that preceded us and our own. Today, this generation, because of technology, has been shaped and molded unlike any other in the history of the world. The powers that rule this world have unprecedented opportunity to influence the sea of humanity. I exhort you to meditate on these thoughts. The bombardment of speeches, thoughts, philosophies, and hopes are all around us. We cannot escape this world. But God calls us to be no part of this world. He calls us out of this world. What does it mean to be no part of this world?In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 8, 2004

Here is a side note or an illustration. Does America accept this truth about itself?Bakersfield Califorian, Thursday, July 8, 2004Cox News ServiceDespite stricter enforcement and greater protection for victims, human traffickers continue to smuggle in thousands of foreigners from poor countries to work as slaves in brothels, homes, factories and farm fields in the United States, witnesses told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee Wednesday."Americans may be particularly alarmed to learn that at least 15,000 human beings are trafficked into lives of slavery in the United States each year," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, who chaired the hearing. He said some estimates put the figure as high as 50,000 a year.Women, children and men are brought in from places as far apart as Uzbekistan and Mexico, enticed with false promises of glamour, education or, in some cases, simply the propect of a steady pink-collar or blue-collar job. Beatings, isolation from society, threats of deportation, sexual humiliiation, rape or theats of retaliation against family members in their home countries are among the tactics used to keep them from escaping. The Justice Department's U.S. attorneys have uncovered "numerous examples of forced labor and sex slavery...from California to Maryland, from Hawaii to New Jersey, from Georgia to New Hampshire," Cornyn said. "The stories they tell are tragic, disturbing and hear-rending." Sen. Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, the panel's ranking Democrat, said those cases include "forced farm labor, domestic servitude, sweatshop labor, forced prostitution, construction work, restaurant work, or adoption."end of storyAbout 4 years ago we traveled as a family to Virginia. One of the sites we visited was Jefferson's home of Montecello. Jefferson who was responsible for writing much of the Constitution, built his home on top of a mountain. Everyone listened to the Park Service interpreter list inovation upon inovation of the features that Jefferson incorporated into Montecello's design. We saw gardens, and water features for storing rain water. Yet without slaves Montecello was not possible. You see Jefferson built a home which had no water supply. The slaves would have to truck up water from a river a mile or two below his property. Holy Scripture, if one wants to hear, is filled with the foolish exploits of man. There is much to learn about the world in Holy Scripture.In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 8, 2004

Here is another illustration of the failings of men in this world. Most who read this may not understand the economic impacts of this work done by our government, yet Mr. Buffet the second or third wealtiest man in the world calls the kettle black. Featured article on Yahoo Finance site:"Many companies, particularly in the high-tech industry, have railed against a current Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) proposal to account for employee stock options as expenses because it would increase the reported cost of these options and make their financial results appear worse. FASB isn't in the business of outcome-based decisions, but Congress sure as heck is. So the House, perhaps noting after the accounting scandals of the past decade and in the face of disgust over exploding executive compensation, recognizes that some further tightening of the rules is perhaps inevitable.As Buffett notes, though, what the House bill has in mind is simply bizarre. It accepts the fact that options are compensation and, therefore, should be expensed, but then it comes up with the gimmick that companies must only expense for the five highest-paid executive officers at each company. Further, the pricing mechanism that the House bill proposes to be used is one that assumes that the price of the underlying stock never fluctuates.Great. Show me the company stock that never fluctuates. Everything fluctuates. Buffett's verdict: "A for imagination... flat-out F for logic."And just so his point isn't lost in the inevitable recriminations of the "he doesn't know how it works" or "he's just jealous" crowd, Buffett notes that his position on accounting for options has fealty from the following: all seven members of FASB, all four of the big accounting firms, and legions of investment professionals (I'm sure he was including me in that assessment. I'm just sure of it.).That House members wish to ignore the voices of these folks who know a thing or two about accounting (the standard setters as well as the largest, most knowledgeable consumers thereof) is simply frightening. There is a good reason that FASB is an independent group not beholden to political interests: because it can make decisions for the benefit of the polity of accounting consumers without consideration of the special interests.The tone Warren Buffett uses in this editorial is a little more acid than I've seen in the past. He notes the silliness of counting only the top five execs' bonuses as expenses, then also notes that if Congress wishes to take on the roll as the chief scorekeeper for accounting that it had better clean up the hash of its own financial reporting. He noted that current standards allowed managers to "lie." Not "fudge," not "adjust," not "adopt looser accounting standards." Lie.'end of storyAll is vanity. I think Solomon would agree with Warren Buffett. In ChristJeff

crsschk Jul 12, 2004

Thought this was relevant to this thread but perhaps not in the way it could be interpeted. Have learned a great deal through the postings here and my thinking is in applying this to the 'whole' as Jeff is guiding us...OUR FRACTURED DISCOURSEHere's a couple of snippets:"``That is the question: How does anyone know anything today?'' said Michael X. Delli Carpini, dean of the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania.""For Delli Carpini, ``Fahrenheit 9/11'' is just the latest flash point amid the confusion and controversy generated by a ``breakdown between news and entertainment, and between fact and opinion.''""Separating facts from semi-facts, speculation and loose assertions is a job that has become, perhaps ironically, much harder as we've been deluged with new sources of information. We're already worried about the weaknesses of the mainstream press, and now unsubstantiated ``news reports'' fly around the world by e-mail, gaining strength by virtue of their computer-accelerated repetition. And with Moore's instigation, we're sitting in theaters trying to sift through the allegations about distortions and falsehoods in his film.""The fallout includes growing cynicism about the media among consumers and a polarization in TV and radio habits, based largely on people's ideological disposition.""``If you have the slightest familiarity with the World Wide Web,'' said Toobin, ``there's more diversity of information than our parents could conceive of, let alone see.''""With that much diversity, of course, comes the potential for more conflicting ``noise,'' rather than clearer news." But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Dan 12:4

rookie Jul 13, 2004

Brother Mike,We see the confusion, many time we fall into the confusion. I and my family have just returned from San Quintin Mexico. It was a first time visit for my wife, daugther, and niece. Five of us drove down in a Toyota Tercel. We visited some of our missionary friends who live down there. We shared fellowship with the various indian tribes who work the fields of the land owners. They are paid between 7 and 8 dollars a day for a 10 hour work period. Many of the home of these people, consist of one room. All the cooking, all the living happens within a 200 square foot shack. The love of Jesus fills these shacks. They prepared meals for us that cost them 2 days wages. They gave freely of all that they have. We were blessed by fellowship in the Lord. They sing and praise Him. They thank Him for His provision. When we asked them how they were doing, they would respond, "Muy contento." (very content). As we sat and ate, flies swarmed, landing occasionaly on our food. I watched my family eat these meals that up until that point they would have look to in disgust. Yet, the plates were clean after they had ate. Many times at our own dinner table, the plates are not as clean. The love of Jesus can overcome all that causes us to stumble. The love of Jesus can overcome the unknown pride in our hearts. These people love their families. They love their kids. They love to have lots of kids. The family is the center of their lives. They know nothing of the things that occupy our lives. News and advertising does not fill their lives with the cares that the world dictates. The Holy Scriptures, is the only book that they own. It seems to be working for them. In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 14, 2004

On our way back from Mexico, as we crossed the border, we were met with a shocking reality. A fence seperates the two countries. One is poor and the other is rich. As we entered the San Deigo area we were surrounded by the prosperity that has so permeated our lives. We have come to expect nothing but the best, the best buildings, the best food, the best schools, etc. We really know very little of the living conditions that exist throughout the rest of the world. We know very little of the struggles of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. We know very little of the joy that they have in Christ. We know very little of the joys of fellowship because we have allowed ourselves to be encumbered by the pursuits for which men strive for. These encumberances dilute our prayer life, they dilute our time of meditation. These encumberances make us hard of hearing, and near sighted. Brother Robert speaks to this from another thread:The Key to Laying Aside Your Weights… Hebrews 12:1 teaches us that there are weights that serve as an encumbrance in our spiritual lives, and sins also that easily beset us. The word beset could have been translated as compete. The Scripture would then read…the sin that does easily compete against us. The sense of the meaning is that there is a sin that easily competes against us and prevails. Key in on the word EASILY. There are sins that come against us and easily prevail against us. This ought not so to be! God has given us the keys to making that sin that easily beset us, into a sin that very RARELY if ever besets us. That is the context of Hebrews 12. This passage teaches us that there is a great cloud of witnesses that overcame the sins that would have easily beset them, and the weights that would have hastened their defeat. Have you laid aside your weights? Are you running the race to WIN! The victors of past races would be seated near the track in the ancient Greek games. The writer to Hebrews illudes to this. There are many that have gone before us as a testimony that God can keep us the same as He saved us. The Destruction in the High Places From the beginning of time mankind has sought to do or have that which is forbidden. For Israel it was the groves and the high places. The Old Testament is literally filled with the people of God repenting and backsliding over and over again. Ultimately the issue was the heart of the people, but many things contributed to God’s people backsliding. Much of their backsliding could have no doubt been prevented if the leadership had removed and kept removing the groves and the high places. The high places were elevated or hilltop sites dedicated to the worship of pagan gods. Ancient peoples often built their shrines on hilltops. In Mesopotamia, where the land is flat, they built artificial mountains in the shape of step pyramids called Ziggurats. The Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9) was probably such a Ziggurat. Most of the Old Testament references to high places indicate a form of pagan worship forbidden to the Israelites. But sometimes the Lord's people, with His approval, worshipped Him at elevated altars. This happened between the time Shiloh was destroyed and before the ARK OF THE COVENANT was installed in Solomon's Temple. For example, Samuel blessed the offerings made at the high place which perhaps was Ramah, a word which itself means "high place" (1 Samuel 9:12-14). At nearby Gibeon there was a high place. During the reign of David the Tabernacle was there (1 Chronicles 16:39; 21:29; 2 Chronicles. 1:3-4). At this "high place" Solomon made many sacrifices, had his dream, and asked God for wisdom (1 Kings 3:4 -15). At these times God’s people would seek Him at the high place, but later they would serve other gods there. Solomon would eliminate the need for ANY high place after the building of the Temple. So in our lives after becoming the true Temple of the Holy Ghost, we must forsake the high places, lest we return to them to our own destruction and perdition. Beside of these periods in Israel's history, all high places mentioned in the Bible were off limits to God's people. In Leviticus 26:30 God promised to destroy the high places, which He knew His people would later build. When Solomon began to backslide he established high places for his pagan wives (I Kings 11:7-8). After Solomon's death, the rebellious Northern Kingdom had its high places. The two major ones, containing golden calves, were at Dan and Bethel (I Kings 12:28-33). Then as ungodly kings came to the throne in Judah they inaugurated high places, and afterwards righteous kings abolished them. During Rehoboam's reign high places appeared (1 Kings 14:23), but Hezekiah broke them down (II Kings 18:4). Manasseh in his wickedness built them again (II Kings 3), but righteous Josiah utterly destroyed them and burned the groves as well (II Kings 23:8). He ground the images into powder and sprinkled the ashes of them over the graves of those who worshipped them and built them. Probably nothing provoked God to anger any more than His people turning from Him- to the groves and the high places. Casting Down the High Places In modern times a “high place” could be a place where you go to encounter that which you used to know as a sinner; a place where God does not reign in our lives…. , the place where God ceases to be God in our life. Going to a high place is like telling God “time out” I’m going to take a break from my calling, Christian testimony, and worst of all from your presence. In our Christian lives we will grow no farther than our high places. Our spirituality ends where our high places begin. God will not tolerate other things in our lives competing for the love and devotion that belongs to Him. We cannot be as Israel and serve God on one hand and this world on the other. Tossing Aside the Encumbrances "There is a pathway of stepping stones that lead to the high places in our lives. These stepping-stones form a bridge back to the world. A bridge that was once burned, but has been rebuilt. Each of those stones makes a formidable pathway that must be removed piece by piece. The sins that easily beset us are like the high places in Israel that keep us backsliding and repenting over and over, and the anger of the Lord thoroughly kindled. We must remove the things in our lives that make us vulnerable to the sins that so easily beset us. Why should we fool ourselves into believing that we can handle a multitude of encumbrances that make us easy prey for Satan? Why should we hand Satan the advantage against us in our lives? Among all of Satan’s devices, none are more successful than the stepping stones that we put in our lives as we listen to his lies. If you know it is a hindrance and is making you vulnerable-forsake it! Before it leads to you having forsaken God. What do you keep telling yourself that you can handle? What are you 'running with' that is alloeing sin to catch and trip you up? Why do you allow yourself to be knocked down by certain weights weighing you down? Always keep in mind that nothing is worth sacrificing the presence of God for, our victory for, and all the more…our soul for. What would a man profit if he gained all the world and lost his own soul? What would a man give in exchange for his soul? Words that are so often…just words. They have become of none effect in so many lives. Now more than ever when direct access to the world has invaded many of our own homes, we must use discernment. The FIRST KEY to unlocking the victory in YOUR LIFE is turned when you go through your house, car, work area, and heart and begin to dispose of those things that are causing you to struggle to keep the victory. Turning the key begins when we realize that we cannot take fire into our bosom and not be burned. Sadly, many people know WHAT they need to get rid of but will not, because they have listened to the lie of Satan and he has stolen their desire to have victory. God forbid that we would opt for defeat when God has made provision for victory, because we loved our toys and vices more than we desired to live righteously before God." I believe there is an evil that permeates our way of life. The promotion of self and individualism has placed a veil between us and our Lord. The media saturates ever means of communication with this philosophy. How many ways do we fall victim to this philosophy of individualism? How does this self promotion affect our fellowship with our Savior, with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? In this past week I have seen a little bit of the blessedness that Jesus speaks of in the beatitudes. It looks nothing like the prosperity gospel in this nation. In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 15, 2004

I have attempted to identify a significant event within the history of this nation. This event is the focus of man's efforts to persuade men and women in the ways that they should go. Within the last 40 years, the nature of our economy has changed. Prior to this period, we as a nation invested our resources into building the infrastructure. This country had over the course of two centuries built something that was real. We have seen men become wealthy for the things that they produced. They built railroads, cars, and roads. They drilled for oil. They harvested timber. Now, as I have established in prior posts, the wealth has shifted to those who produce information. Advertising, media, entertainment, retailing, and investments dominate the wealth of this nation.So now having identified this mass movement of men and women striving to capture the minds of men, I will attempt to identify some of the manifestations produced by their work.During the 1980's there was a thought being promoted throughout the media. Many people were losing their jobs to foreign competition. There was a debate being waged. The main question was this: to whom are the corporations responsible? For those losing their jobs, they sought to include themselves under the umbrella of corporate responsibility. For those who owned the corporations, they sought to deny any responsiblity for the labor force. The common thought promoted throughtout the media was; the corportations are responsible to their shareowners only. The sole objective for the corporate entity was to make a profit. During the soaring stock market days of that decade, most people accepted this wisdom. We have learned to assign wisdom to events which if they prove themselves successful, then the methods used to attain the success must be correct. Paris Reidhead speaks to this type of thinking in his sermon, Ten Shekels and a Shirt. Can you see the fallacy inherent in this method of perception? I am not argueing for or against the corporation. I am seeking to identify the ways men have traveled in this generation. I am seeking to identify the substance of men's faith. I am seeking to identify the evidence of the hopes for which men and women strive. Out of timeIn ChristJeff

rookie Jul 19, 2004

I wrote in the previous post:"The sole objective for the corporate entity was to make a profit."Today, most would agree with the truth of this statement. I too agree that an entity existing as a corporation under the law of capitalism must have this goal. However, my intent is to look through Scripture for the warnings that are given to us. First, I believe we as christians do not seek to differentiate between the things of this world and the things of Christ. Many christians believe that the precepts of democracy, capitalism, and corporations are somehow part of His kingdom. I would suggest otherwise. I believe these precepts are not of the heavenly Jerusalem. I believe these systems have been created by man. Thus I believe these systems fall under the sway of Satan. With that said, I also believe that christians are called to be the salt within these systems. Secondly, based on the precept that the corporation exists to make a profit, and that most corporations fall under the sway of Satan, it is up to God to take from what is bad and mean it for good for those who love Him. Remember, the doctrine of total depravity? Does it not apply to all systems created by man? And here is the warning that we have from Scripture. "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves though with many sorrows." 1 Timothy 6:10. First, who is it that is being warned? Is is not the believer? How did they stumble? They strayed from the faith in their greediness. What do we hear from the media? How does it influence our decisions? Do we not hear that greed is good. Do we choose not to see all kinds of evil that grow out of the pursuit of money? I believe the church suffers from a hypocritical faith. We profess Christ, and yet we also choose to not see all the warnings that Christ gave us. We see many striving to maintain prosperity by their own efforts. We see the kings of this world seeking to control the nations of this world. And for what purpose? Is is not to find security, and ease of life in this life? Look to the history of this world. Look to the vain strivings of men. Out of timeIn ChristJeff

rookie Jul 19, 2004

I forgot to make this point. If the love of money promotes all kinds of evil, will not this evil manifest itself in the depraved systems of men? The question is, do we as christians recognize those things which appeal to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life? These are the devices of Satan. Do you see these devices being used to influence your thoughts, your desires, and your actions? Are we straying from the faith because of greediness? Do we entertain futile thoughts?"Let him not trust in futile things, deceiving himself, for futility will be his reward." Job 15:31In ChristJeff

Rahman Jul 19, 2004

brother Jeff you posted:((( The question is, do we as christians recognize those things which appeal to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life? These are the devices of Satan. Do you see these devices being used to influence your thoughts, your desires, and your actions? Are we straying from the faith because of greediness? Do we entertain futile thoughts? )))i think there is a remnant of saints who see what's going on but it seems to me the majority of saints i'm around not only don't see it, but don't even want to see it ... They don't even want to talk about the type of things you, i, and so many others post, in fact i get more feed back about what concerns me spiritually on this SI forum than i can in actual conversation with fellow saints ... i had a very close friend tell me some weeks ago that he was concidering not being around me anymore, because he did not want to know what i know ... well at least he was honest enought to say it to me straight instead of either giving me the brush off, or avoiding me all together ... i've been sending up some timber for you as of late, after reading your posts from your family trip to Mexico up till this last one, because i said to the Lord, "This brother seems to be on a heavier mission than my own" ... i totally love the factual data you put out juxstaposed alongside scripture and your stinging questions, but then i'm analytical, and i don't think most folk are ... i'm just hoping and praying that if you're getting in real life the same type of patronizing "well bless God brother" babble that i get from so many folk i know, that it's not making you weary or depressed in your mission ... i've been very weary at times in mine, but i've had something happen to me in the past week that has taken my "self" totally out of the equation of what His mission is for me, and that is that "i am nothing" ... i'm just a trumpet, an instrument for God to pick up when He chooses to blow thru me, and to put down when He chooses to cease ... So are you ... So is every Christian ... So if He's blowing thru you and it seems like no ones listening, there's no need for a negative reaction in us, because instuments don't have feelings, and when one comes to truly seeing themselves as God's instrument (and not vise-versa), if folk don't like, or refuse to hear, or better yet dance to, the tune that's coming thru you, they ain't rejecting you the instrument, they're rejecting the Musician ... i now fully understand that my joy is not that folk would listen and dance to my tune (that would be reward down here), it's not even my tune, but that He's chosen to pick me up and blow thru me in the first place (that's reward in heaven) ... i am nothing ... you are nothing ... we are nothing ... and certainly all this shiny bling-bling crap that satan keeps the world, and alas so much of Christ Church hypnotized with, certainly ain't nothing, those dear saints in Mexico know that ... Christ is everything ... His kingdom is everything ... His righteousness is everything ... All else N-O-T-H-I-N-G !!!i'm no longer concerned with the hows, whys and wherefores of what this world, or Christ Church is coming to ... do you know why? ... because i already know ... it's all escalating toward His will being done on earth, as it already is in heaven ... God has it all under control ... LET ME SHOUT THIS AGAIN - GOD HAS IT ALL UNDER CONTROL ... i find that so comforting, so soothing ... when i think back on all that i know about the thousands of years of human history, this is what i see ... God intervening at His own appointed time, with His own appointed servant(s), bringing to pass what He has appointed from since before the founding of the world ... Same with now ... When God is ready He'll sound an epoch changing trumpet, or two, or three, that'll wake us all up in a way that's unmistakably Him ... What an honor it would be to be one of those trumpets ... REPENT! - FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND!

rookie Jul 20, 2004

Brother Rahman:You brought a new song to my heart this morning. It is a very lonely place that I am in. Your experiences that you have shared are the things of my life. The thoughts that I share, of the things of this world, I too fall prey to Satan's devices. The more I see the less I am. In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 20, 2004

What are some of the manifestations that have come about because of this pragmatic approach of capitalism? Last week, I found out that the 5 digit number tatooed on Holocaust survivors was created by IBM. This numbering system was created to facilitate record keeping for the Nazi prisoner system. It is all about making a profit. What was true 70 years ago is true today. There is nothing new under the sun. The ways of men have not changed, just the names."America Hosts 76 percent of Islamic Terrorist Websites by Sean Beesley While America and the world combat terror, it appears that the terrorists and their supporters themselves are tapping into America’s booming web hosting industry to spread their venom. With the war on terror in full swing and terrorists scrambling to reorganize and regroup, the anonymous nature of the Internet has become an essential tool. As we often hear in news reports terrorists and their supporters have become more reliant on websites, message boards and chat rooms to communicate, rally supporters, and grotesquely display their barbaric acts of beheading to the world. We in the western world generally assume that these sites are set up and run in some remote Middle Eastern country spewing their hate to the world from afar. However, the first instalment of new report by MEMRI (Middle Middle East Media Research Institute) has a shocking revelation. The Middle East Media Research Institute has released part one of it's report on terror affiliated Websites. In a special report entitled Islamist Websites and Their Hosts Part I: Islamist Terror Organizations, which they state is to be the first of many reports on the topic. MEMRI has listed 25 terror affiliated or official Websites active as of July 16 2004. Based on the information shown 20 of the sites are hosted in North America, 19 in the United States and 1 in Canada. The remaining sites were from the United Kingdom, Hong Kong, Russia, United Arab Emirates, and Iran. Meaning 76 percent of the official or affiliated terror sites mentioned are hosted in the United States, while two sites or 8 percent are from the middle east. The American hosted sites include the website of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Army of Ansar Al-Sunnah ; known supporters of Al-Qa'ida, several pro Al-Qa'ida sites including one that publishes Al-Qa'ida's Al-Battar Training Camp magazine, the official website of Hamas, a pro- Hizbullah weekly magazine, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the military wing of Arafat’s Fatah organization, Hizbullah TV station Al-Manar, website of Palestinian Islamic Jihad Secretary General Dr. Abdallah Ramadhan Shalah., and Al-Quds Brigades, military wing of Palestinian Islamic Jihad. While the site for Izz Al-din Al-Qassam, military wing of Hamas, is hosted in Kelowna, Canada. In general, hosting companies have general terms and conditions regarding content that they require their clients to agree to. The majority of these terms state that the dissemination of hate is prohibited. However, with a large increase in third party subcontracting of hosting services and thousands of news sites emerging everyday, it is not know how widely these conditions are enforced. Canada Free Press is presently contacting the companies listed in the report as to their comments. http://www.canadafreepress.com/cover_storys.htm"Do you see?In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 21, 2004

One manifestation that permeates our world today is the idea that we as an educated people must grow more tolerant of others. One of the major contributors to promotion of this precept is the marketing divisions of the corporation. With profit being the motive, the goal of the message is to remove all things that seperate people groups from one another. The thrust of the effort is to remove division. The thrust of the message is to gain the acceptance of as many people as possible. The idea of free trade is one example of the type of message permeating our generation. The push to homogenize people groups for the purpose of creating consumption can be illustrated by the following illustration. The corportations began marketing to the gay and lesbian groups a decade ago. Think about it, what entities were the first to legitimize same sex unions. Was it not the corporations who began treating same sex couples as normal family relationships? If you still watch TV shows, what position does the entertainment industry promote? If you watch the news, what expert opinions are voiced to promote or reject the normalizing of gay and lesbian relationships? I believe the majority of the "expert witnesses," promote only the acceptance of the gay and lesbian positions. And you know what, the marketing effort is working. The younger generations, are as a majority, being swayed to view homosexuality as normal. The marketing industry has identified these groups as profit potential. Budwieser Beer has for years focussed on gay men as source of profit. I am sorry for this illustration, yet it is true, the long neck beer bottle was brought back for the sole purpose of gaining gay market share. Do you see how the love of money cause men to accept all kinds of evil?In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 23, 2004

Again, with profit being the motive, the corporate entity will seek to dismiss roadblocks that are meant for good. Here is another current illustration.Grand Jury Steps Up Inquiry Into Possible Halliburton Ties to Iran By T. Christian Miller and Peter Wallsten Times Staff WritersJuly 21, 2004WASHINGTON — A Halliburton controversy erupted Tuesday, fueled by a grand jury investigation into whether the oil services giant violated federal sanctions by operating in Iran while Vice President Dick Cheney was running the company.The investigation centers on Halliburton Products and Services Ltd., a subsidiary registered in the Cayman Islands and headquartered in Dubai that provided oil field services in Iran. The unit's operations in Iran included Cheney's stint as chief executive from 1995 to 2000, when he frequently urged the lifting of such sanctions.Numerous U.S. companies operate in Iran, but under strict guidelines requiring that their subsidiaries have a foreign registry and no U.S. employees, and that they act independently of the parent company. At issue is whether Halliburton's subsidiary met those criteria.The Treasury Department has been investigating the matter since 2001. But Halliburton disclosed in public financial filings this week that the department had forwarded the case to the U.S. attorney in Houston for further investigation. The company said a federal grand jury had subpoenaed documents on its Iranian operations.The Treasury Department refers such complaints only after finding evidence of "serious and willful violations" of the sanctions law, a government official said.Sen. Frank R. Lautenberg (D-N.J.), whose office has provided information on the case to the Treasury Department, said Tuesday that Halliburton Products and Services was a sham that existed only to circumvent the sanctions."It's unconscionable that an American company would skirt the law to help Iran generate revenues," Lautenberg told reporters during a conference call arranged by the campaign of the presumed Democratic presidential nominee, Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts.Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt called the allegations against Cheney baseless, and accused Democrats of trying to use Halliburton as a distraction. Cheney's office and the White House characterized the latest criticisms of Halliburton as political."The Democrats have made clear that their all-purpose strategy, no matter the issue, whether it's healthcare or John Kerry's plans to raise taxes or John Kerry's votes against our men and women in uniform or John Kerry's proposals to cut the intelligence budget, will be met by one word: Halliburton," Schmidt said. "The Kerry campaign has become increasingly flailing in their attacks as there has been increasing focus on John Kerry's record."Democrats have long criticized Cheney for his connections to Halliburton, hoping to link the vice president to the company's contracts for Iraq reconstruction and its overbilling for services in that country. Cheney has denied any connection to the contracts.The company has repeatedly found itself at the center of government investigations.The Securities and Exchange Commission and the Justice Department are looking into allegations that top officials in a consortium that included a Halliburton subsidiary paid millions of dollars in bribes to win contracts in Nigeria. The Justice Department is also looking into reports that Halliburton officials took $6.3 million in kickbacks in Iraq. The Pentagon is examining whether the company overcharged U.S. taxpayers by more than $186 million for meals never served to U.S. troops abroad.Treasury and Justice officials declined to comment on their inquiry into the Halliburton subsidiary.Violation of the sanctions can result in criminal charges, and those found guilty can face 10 years in prison. A company can be fined as much as $500,000.Lautenberg said that in the Iran case, the actions taken by the Republican-controlled Justice and Treasury departments showed that the accusations against Cheney were more than political.He noted that the grand jury investigation comes amid a flurry of questions about Iran's role in terrorism against the United States.The independent commission investigating the 2001 terrorist attacks is expected to conclude in a report due Thursday that several of the Sept. 11 hijackers passed through Iran on their way to the United States.Lautenberg's office distributed copies of four letters from 1997 sent from a London arm of the Iranian state oil company to Halliburton Products and Services in Dubai.The four letters, all requests for goods and services from the Halliburton subsidiary, included handwritten notations to specific individuals. Lautenberg's staff questioned whether the individuals worked for the foreign subsidiary or for a U.S. subsidiary, in violation of the sanctions.Halliburton confirmed the authenticity of the documents, but said that two of the individuals were British citizens who had never worked for any U.S. Halliburton subsidiary. The other two handwritten notations did not list first names of the individuals, and Halliburton said it was unable to locate records for them."These documents do not suggest that any violation of the applicable regulations occurred," Halliburton spokeswoman Wendy Hall said in a statement.Hall said Halliburton's business in Iran had not violated any sanctions, and pledged full cooperation with the government's inquiry."It is important to understand, especially in the current political environment, that this is not a condemnation of the company, but a method of further studying the facts," Hall said of the grand jury subpoena. "We welcome a thorough review of any and all of the company's business."The law forbids U.S. companies from doing business with countries considered by the U.S. government to be sponsors of terrorism. The list includes Iran, North Korea, Cuba and Sudan.An executive order signed by President Clinton in 1995 specifically prohibits U.S. firms from activities that would benefit the Iranian petroleum industry. The order accuses Iran of sponsorship of international terrorism, undermining the Middle East peace process and developing weapons of mass destruction.Development of petroleum resources, Clinton said at the time, "would provide new funds that the Iranian government could use to continue its current policies."Halliburton's Iran operations are virtually all related to oil and gas, and generated at least $39 million in revenue last year, the company said.The policy allowing U.S. firms to indirectly operate in prohibited countries has come under increasing attack. One leading critic is New York City Comptroller William C. Thompson Jr., a Democrat who oversees the city's pension fund. He has launched an effort to persuade Halliburton and other firms he invests in to cut all ties to countries that sponsor terrorism.A January report by CBS' "60 Minutes" featured Thompson and raised questions about the Halliburton subsidiary that does business in Iran.In that report, a CBS reporter traveled to the company's Cayman Islands operations, only to find no such company there. Instead, the building is owned by a local bank. A bank employee told the reporter that when mail arrived for the Halliburton subsidiary, it was forwarded directly to Houston. end of article.The nature of the business of natural resource extraction requires that the business find more resources to extract. The value of the company in not based only on what it sells today. The true value is determined by the potential to extract resources tomorrow. A business that can demonstrate abundant ownership of natural resources has high intrinsic value. This pursuit by businesses is world wide. So with profit being the motive, competion for limited resources intensifies. And depraved man and his systems write the rules as they compete. Do you see the futility of man's pragmatic ways?In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 27, 2004

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are upon you! Your riches are corrupted, and yur garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasures in the last days. Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury, you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you." James 5:1-6When our family traveled to Baja Mexico, we drove past miles of agricultural businesses. These businesses depend on the cheap labor of the Mexican Indians. The indians are bussed up from southern tropical Mexico. They are paid between 7 and 10 American dollars a day for 10 hour work shifts. Most work 6 days a week. Some work 7 days a week. This amount of compensation sustains life for these people. This story is played out all over the world. Whether it is the migrant worker in the San Jacquin Valley of California, or somewhere in China, the story is the same. I believe there is evidence that this story is reaching more and more people all over the world. Look to the national debt of the United States. Five years ago, we would import 20 billion dollars worth of products and services above what we exported each month. That means as a whole, our incurred debt was about 240 billion dollars. Now the current debt spending record is holding at 40 billion plus per month. China is the primary recipient of our debt spending. Why is this occuring? Corporations, seeking profits, have been allowed to use the Chinese labor force as a comodity. I have a friend whose sister works for Toshiba computer systems. In the last two years Toshiba has been seeking to establish manufacturing plants in China. She said that women between the ages of 14 and 21 are hired to work in these plants. Over time the corporation has determined that this demographic is the most productive segment of the population. This demographic is also present in the border towns adjacent to the American borders with Mexico. I believe the Scripture found in James is becoming a reality in our generation. Look to how these times are manifested in this warning. Look to the book of Revelation. Does it not illustrate the same principles. "And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine." The poor exist on wheat and barley, the rich on oil and wine. Look around you what do you see?In ChristJeff

rookie Jul 28, 2004

Here is a timely illustration of the previous post. CEO pay hikes double Corporate Library survey finds median raise for S&P 500 CEO was 22.18% in 2003. July 28, 2004: 8:34 AM EDT NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The CEO's at the nation's largest companies saw their raises more than doubled in 2003 as the median raise handed out by S&P 500 companies to their top executives was 22.18 percent, according to a study by The Corporate Library. The watchdog group said that stock options and awards of restricted stock drove the larger pay hikes. But most elements of the pay -- base salary, annual bonuses, restricted stock, long-term incentive payout, value realized from stock options and total compensation -- showed increases. The only type of compensation not to show a gain was the value of stock option grants during the year. "This double-digit rise in pay shows that calls for pay restraint appear to be being ignored," said the statement from the group. end of article...I found this in the Pensees thread:It is a perverted judgement that makes every one place himself above the rest of the world, and prefer his own good, and the continuance of his own good fortune and life, to that of the rest of the world!PascalWe see the strivings of a few men. What about the common man? What about the believer? What is the nature of the fruit of these men's works? In Christ,Jeff

ZekeO Jul 28, 2004

rookie wrote:We see the strivings of a few men. What about the common man? What about the believer? What is the nature of the fruit of these men's works? It is such a fine line between what we want and what we need. Being content with what we have, knowing that we have a father who loves and cares for us. One of things that I find quite challenging is maitaining a cutting edge attitude towards life and the Lord, knowing that he deserves my all, but being a good steward of what he has given me. In regards to policies and planning for the future of your family certainly adds to the weight of decisions that we need to make. Being sold out but at the same time not being stupid:-(. It is so easy to get consumed with stuff, but in the light of living conservatively we have a life that is so consumed with the beauty of Jesus, that that one vision motivates a life of self-sacrifice.Thoughts.Zeke

rookie Jul 29, 2004

Brother Zeke wrote:It is so easy to get consumed with stuff, but in the light of living conservatively we have a life that is so consumed with the beauty of Jesus, that that one vision motivates a life of self-sacrifice.I believe the answer to our problem in the U.S. is summed up with what you said Zeke. The solution is to have Jesus fill our lives with a joy that consumes our life. I am clueless to how things are in South Africa. Maybe you could share some of your observations of your country. However, here in the U.S. the common man finds himself slowly losing the prosperity his father once had. I remember the mid 1960's when my father was a steel worker for Bethlehem Steel. My mother was able to stay home. He supported us on his wages. My father always purchased a new car. He never bought used cars. However he only bought one car every ten years, and he paid cash for it. In 1965, my parents purchased an acre of land and built a home. Back then a 1700 square foot home was considered quite large. They paid the mortgage off in less than 10 years. Back then, only 17% of moms with children under the age of I believe 8, worked. Today, 70% of moms work with children under the age of 8 years old. It now takes two people working to sustain the life style most Americans have been trained to desire. Surprisingly, with two parents working, income levels have basically stayed the same or dropped for 80% of the population. In addition to this phenomena, debt levels have increased beyond imagination in the past 40 years. So here in the U.S. we have begun to live on our future earnings. Do you see how different these times are compared to the 1960's? Not only are two people working, but we have added debt to strive for something that amounts to what?In ChristJeff

Jslimbaugh Jul 29, 2004

I believe the answer to our problem in the U.S. is summed up with what you said Zeke. The solution is to have Jesus fill our lives with a joy that consumes our life.Jesus said that "no man can serve two masters." He said this specifically and contextually concerning money. We see a lving example of this truth in Christ's exchange with the Rich Young Ruler.In America, we have a name that we wear quite glibly...if not proudly and triumphantly. It is the lable of "consumer." Do you know what a consumer is? A consumer is just a worldly way of saying one is supremely coveteous. And this is how Western culture in general, and American culture in particular, chooses to define itself.The Western Christian is infused with this mentality, and should not deceive himself or herself about it. You have been -- as a citizen of the First World -- socialized, groomed, and conditioned to love and seek after the wares of the world.So what is the solution for such an ingrained flaw? Our hope is Christ -- that this faith is a transforming faith. That it has the ability to accomplish what no other discipline or system on the face of the planet can: to actually make you a DIFFERENT PERSON. As Paul wrote, "If any man is in Christ, he is a NEW creature. The old has GONE and the new has come."But what does the process look like? What is our part in it? "If any man wants to be My disciple, he must pick up his cross daily and follow me." It is through a deep, thorough, painful death to "my stuff" that we crucify the consumerist mentality and become free. Then we can say with Paul, "Godliness with contentment is great gain." But until we learn to LIVE like Paul, we will never learn to experience this maxim. We will only be able to agree with it, which doesn't impress God in the least.One helpful encouragement in this call to be free of the world is that God's goal isn't deprivation. His goal isn't to deny you. His goal is to remove the material obstacles that cloud our spiritual view. If this work can be accomplished in us, then we can joyfully proclaim these words from the Scripture -- "Oh, the depths of the RICHES of the wisdom and knowledge OF GOD."God becomes our greatest treasure. David said of God, "Eternal pleasures are at Your right hand forevermore." Many fear that answering the call to come away from the distractions of the world and all its "stuff" will mean a supremely boring, austere life. To the contrary, David says that it is the gateway to eternal pleasures that far outshine anything this world has to offer.Blessings!!Jason

ZekeO Jul 29, 2004

But what does the process look like? What is our part in it? "If any man wants to be my disciple, he must pick up his cross daily and follow me." It is through a deep, thorough, painful death to "my stuff" that we crucify the consumerist mentality and become free.I’ve heard it said that crucifixion is the only form of death that you can’t do to yourself, and because you can’t do it to yourself you can’t control it. I think that is what scares me at times, how much it would really cost in terms of me losing everything to be dead. The process sometimes is painful. On the topic at hand the thought of giving up ‘my stuff’ that I have so carefully put together, I mean I worked for it, don’t I deserve it? I know the answer leans more towards ‘NO’ but you hear my heart. Suppose I had better get in the trunk.It has been said many times: Trust and obey, it is the only way. Raises another thought provoker, do I really trust God with my life, my wife, my children, my home everything? If I do not know him how can I even begin to let it all be stripped away? We are constantly being bombarded with messages of what we should do and what we ought to be doing with out lives etc. I think these days as a Christian require utmost diligence to maintain intimacy with him. Guarding the good deposit.Consumerist mentalityNow that is an interesting mindset, in relation to the Church situation. The town were I live is quite slow in terms of trends, fads, labels, fashion etc. But you travel 80 Kms down the highway and you get Durban, which is completely opposite. What is interesting, is that within these two cities are Churches, which in our church language are base churches, in other words they export ministry and resources beyond their local environs. We both belong to the same church grouping but the way we reflect ourselves in terms of fashion, the cars we drive, the houses we buy is chalk and cheese. I know allot has got to do with the comparative salaries and the like, but when we stand next to them, we are quite ‘untrendy’. The culture in that Church is a young, happening, trendy, outgoing, coffee shop lifestyle. Whether this has got anything to do with a consumerist mentality on there part I could not tell, but it is something that I have noticed. The leaders in these churches are good friends and they both have a heart to see the gospel impact the world, so to see how much finances influence the style of the church is noteworthy. One thing that it does do is make everyone in that environment think that this is normal, and if you don’t have the labels 'you feel' you don't fit in. Not only are two people working, but we have added debt to strive for something that amounts to what?Not much really, but heck them Jones’ have just got a new jeep Cherokee. Is this the case in the church as well?I am clueless to how things are in South Africa. Maybe you could share some of your observations of your country.Bro, its just the same, the only thing that differs maybe is the degrees of variance. You can have multimillion Dollar home and literally 5 miles down the road you have people living in a shantytown. The sad thing is that person living in a shack wants exactly what the person in the big house wants: MORE! To be fare to the people who live in absolute squaller, they have a sense of joy and community that the rich castles don't.So it has to be a Jesus revolution to quell the monsters that live within each of us. Marx didn’t say for nothing that religion is the opiate of the masses.

rookie Jul 29, 2004

Thanks for sharing Zeke. Here are some thoughts according to Scripture.John 4:1-26Jesus taught His disciples to preach the good news of the kingdom. The beatitudes identify the nature of the work that Jesus’ life manifests in the lives of the believer. Jesus promises an abundant life, a passionate life, a joyful life to those who seek. Jesus promises, “whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” John 4:14 Are we living a life that is parched? Are we content with living a life that does not satisfy? Let us look to how Jesus ministered to the Samaritan women at the well. The Samaritan woman said to Jesus, “Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock? (verse 12) Also she said, “Our fathers worshipped on this mountain…” (verse 20) Listen to the words of the Samaritan. She claims to be of the same lineage as Jesus. Yet the Jews “have no dealings with Samaritans. Why is this so? It is important that we go back in time to understand the significance of this encounter between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. We find a short summary of the judgment God placed on the tribes of Israel. He strengthened the hand of the Assyrians to conquer the northern tribes that lived in the area of Samaria. “For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them, until the Lord removed Israel out of His sight, as He had said by all His servants the prophets. So Israel was carried away from their own land to Assyria, as it is this day.” 2 Kings 17:22-23 “Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone.” Vs 18 “Then the king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Ava, Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel; and they took possession of Samaria and dwelt in its cities. And it was so, at the beginning of their dwelling there, that they did not fear the Lord; therefore the Lord sent lions among them; which killed some of them. So they spoke to the king of Assyria, saying, “The nations whom you have removed and placed in the cities of Samaria do not know the rituals of the God of the land; therefore He has sent lions among them, and indeed, they are killing them because they do not know the rituals of the God of the land.” Then the king of Assyria commanded, saying, “Send there one of the priests whom you brought from there; let him go and dwell there, and let him teach them the rituals of the God of the land.” 2 Kings 17:24-27Let us listen to what happen in the region of Samaria. “However every nation continued to make gods of its own, and put them in the shrines on the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in the cities where they dwelt…They feared the Lord, yet served their own gods-according to the rituals of the nations from among whom they were carried away…To this day they continue practicing the former rituals; they do not fear the Lord, nor do they follow their statutes or their ordinances, or the law and commandment which the Lord had commanded the children of Jacob…” 2 Kings 17:29-34So, coming back to the time of Jesus we can understand why the Samaritan woman claims Jacob as the father of the Samaritans. She also knows that the Messiah is coming! She says, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” John 4:25 Yet Jesus says to her, “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.” John 4:22 Jesus declares that the Samaritans do not know God. Their history of mixing the word of God with the gods they brought with them from Assyria, combine to mean only that they practiced religious rituals. There can be no satisfaction, no fulfillment, no power in a life that seeks to have one foot in this world and one foot seeking God. Jesus asserts this precept when He says to the Samaritan woman, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again…” Jesus points out to the woman, “for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband, in that you spoke truly.” She has strived to quench her thirst. She said to herself, I will fill the void in my life with the things that a good man can give me. She failed 5 times and now tries once more. Jesus declares He will always quench her thirst if she will only ask. “…Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” He says to her, “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” What does it mean to worship in spirit and truth? What is Jesus really teaching here? I believe the story of the Samaritan woman and Paul’s letters to the Corinthian church teach us an important precept about our relationship with God. Paul cries out to the hearts of the Corinthians, “O Corinthians! We have spoken openly to you, our heart is wide open. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections.” 2 Corinthians 6:12 He goes on to identify the affections which hinder the flow of water that Jesus promises. “For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols?” Paul points to the central problem that is keeping the Corinthians from becoming a fountain of living water. He declares that the Corinthians still hope for the same substances as the world hopes in. Paul’s exhortation to the congregation, “Therefore, Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean. And I will receive you. I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.” 2 Corinthians 6:17-18. Jesus ministers to the Samaritan woman, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”Many have tried to apply Paul’s solution. “Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean…” Many Christians walk this earth in frustration and fear. They struggle through life without the joy of the Lord. They fear contact with the world. They hide their lamp under their bed. They make rules like the Jews who wrote the Talmud. But this is not the way that Jesus provides for His disciples. Listen to Him minister to the Samaritan woman, “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Paul also gives us the same solution to our frustrations and fears, Just before he quotes from Isaiah, “Come out from among them,” Paul identifies that the indwelling Spirit is the only way, the most perfect way. Listen, “I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God and they shall be My people.” Verse 16. Jesus will guide us through His Holy Spirit. He will do the work. He will convict us what hinders us in our relationship with our Lord. He will teach us a way that is not a burden. Jesus promises are true! “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.” Jesus promised the Samaritan woman that she would find rest for her soul if she would only seek. She would no longer search for the substances of the world in hope of finding true joy. Her heart would worship her Creator. Let us search our own hearts. Is our life filled with striving for the substances of this world and at the same time content with our walk with our Lord? Our hearts will either be convicted or confirmed by the Spirit. Jesus will change the substance of our hope. We will not strive for the things of this world, but we will strive for the things of God. Then we too will find rest. Submit to the Spirit that yearns jealously for you. “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, Abba Father!” Romans 8:14-15 When others witness the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives they too will ask, what is the substance of the hope for which we strive. With joy and love we will truly want to share our hope, for Jesus has filled us with living water.Look unto Jesus! He is faithful. In ChristJeff

Rahman Jul 29, 2004

Greetings brethren! ... In the past two years our Lord has schooled me real tough in the Puritan way of viewing, and handling money ... Bottom line, any money that our Lord intrusts to us is His test of stewardship to us ... Can we be trusted with little, if in fact it is His good pleasure to intrust us with more to further His good pleasure ... i've learned so much from adopting the Puritan's view of wealth, money and finance, that in only 2 years I've seen a marked improvement in my finances ...This is the basic Puritan outlook on money, " A firm belief that people are stewards of what God has entrusted to them. Money is ultimately God’s, not ours. In the words of the influential Puritan book, A Godly Form of Household Government, money is “that which God hath lent thee.” ... There once was a time when American business folk practiced the former ...In these lessons God has also made it so clear why it has only taken 100 years for America to fall from the glorious guilded age, to the notorius beguiled age, from the American dream, to the American scream, from the mindset of God's money, to money becoming god ... It's really sad how far America has fallen ...The Puritans and Moneyby LELAND RYKENThe Dangers of WealthInstead of regarding success as a sign of God’s approval or of their own virtue, the Puritans were much more likely to look upon prosperity as a temptation. A marginal note to Genesis 13:1 in the Geneva Bible speaks volumes: “Abraham’s great riches gotten in Egypt hindered him not to follow his vocation,” implying that his riches could easily have become a temptation to him. “Both poverty and riches,” wrote John Robinson, “have their temptations …. And of the two states, … the temptations of riches are the more dangerous.” Thomas Lever claimed, “He that seeks to be rich … will fall into diverse temptations and snares of the devil.” Richard Rogers woke up a little after midnight and was convicted of the fact that the blessings of God “waxed too sweet to me, and … dangerous.” A second reason why riches are dangerous is that they instill reliance on self instead of on God. Richard Baxter was of the opinion that “when men prosper in the world, their minds are lifted up with their estates, and they can hardly believe that they are so ill, while they feel themselves so well.”The acquisition of wealth, said the Puritans, also has a way of absorbing so much of a person’s time and energy that it draws him or her away from religion and moral concern for others. Richard Mather, in his farewell sermon, said: Experience shows that it is an easy thing in the midst of a worldly business to lose the life and power of religion that nothing thereof should be left but only the external form, as it were the carcass or shell, worldliness having eaten out the kernel and having consumed the very soul and life of godliness. Cotton Mather was equally alarmed by the trend toward materialism in New England Society: “Religion begat prosperity and the daughter devoured the mother.”If money is as dangerous as all this, shouldn’t a person simply avoid it? Not according to the Puritans. William Ames claimed that “riches… are morally neither good or bad, but things indifferent which men may use either well or ill.” Thomas Adams told his city congregation, “We teach you not to cast away the bag, but covetousness”How Much Is Enough? The Puritan Ideal of ModerationFor the Puritans, the crucial issue was not how large a person’s income was, but how much money was spent on oneself. The Puritan ideal was moderation. Such an ideal has, of course, appealed to many people besides the Puritans, but the concept of “temperance” was associated with the Puritans in their time.The Puritans conceived of moderation or temperance as a golden mean between extremes. John Downame wrote that “the mean [median] estate is much to be preferred before the greatest prosperity .… The mean estate… preserveth us from forgetfulness of God, irreligion, and profaneness.”If moderation is the goal it needs to be protected against its opposites. One of these is greed for wealth which is often intertwined with covetousness. In a sermon on Matt. 6: 19,20 Perkins listed the following as the things Christ forbids; “sundry practices of covetousness, whereof the first is excessive seeking of worldly wealth, when men keep no measure or moderation.”Another thing that moderation stands opposed to is luxury. The Puritans looked askance at a luxurious lifestyle, no matter what form it took one’s house, clothing, recreation, or eating habits. When Richard Baxter denounced the “wealthy vices,” he included a discussion of sensuality, overeating, and overindulgence in sports and recreation. His “directions against prodigality and sinful wastefulness” included comments against “pampering the belly in excess … or costliness of meat or drink,” “needless costly visits and entertainments,” and “unnecessary sumptuous buildings.”Such warnings against luxury were common among the Puritans. Having defined the essence of luxury with the formula “wealth more than necessary for nature and person,” William Perkins proceeded to show his negative assessment of it: it is “as a knife in the hands of a child, likely to hurt, if not taken away.” Samuel Ward, in his college diary, listed as one of the “sins of the university” that of “excess in apparel.”It would be wrong to conclude that because the Puritans were opposed to luxury they were ascetic. They did not think that denying oneself legitimate indulgences was inherently virtuous. In fact, they were as clear-sighted about the temptations of poverty as they were about the temptations of luxury. Baxter’s list of temptations ran like this: “overmuch care about their wants and worldly matters,” discontent, covetousness, envy of the rich, neglect of spiritual duties, and neglect of “the holy education of their children.”_What Is Money For?The more we explore Puritan attitudes, the more apparent it becomes that the key to everything they said on the topic was their conviction that money is a social good, not a private possession. Its main purpose is the welfare of everyone in society, not the personal pleasure of the person who happens to have control over it.The genius of Puritanism was its clear-sightedness about what things are for, and that genius did not desert them in money matters. Everything depends on how a person uses his or her money. Baxter stated, “The question is how they use that which they labour so hard for, and save so sparingly. If they use it for God, and for charitable uses, there is no man taketh a righter course.”What are the ends or uses of money? The Puritans can speak for themselves on this topic. “Riches may enable us to relieve our needy brethren, and to promote good works for church and state.” Money exists “for the glory of God and the good of others.” “The more diligently we pursue our several callings, the more we are capacitated to extend our charity to such as are in poverty and distress.” “God’s children look to the spiritual use of those things which the worldlings use carnally.” In none of these comments about the purpose of earning money does one get the impression that income is something people have a right to spend on themselves simply because they have earned it.William Perkins provides an adequate summary on using money:We must so use and possess the goods we have, that the use and possession of them may tend to God’s glory, and the salvation of our souls …. Our riches must be employed to necessary uses. These are first, the maintenance of our own good estate and condition. Secondly, the good of others, specially those that are of our family or kindred …. Thirdly, the relief of the poor…. Fourthly, the maintenance of the church of God, and true religion …. Fifth, the maintenance of the Commonwealth.The belief that money is a social good is also the key to Puritan views on the taking of interest. In the sixteenth century the Puritans were overwhelmingly opposed to the practice of taking interest on money that had been lent. They were opposed to it because of Old Testament prohibitions against it and because of what they felt to be the spirit behind the practice, namely, covetousness and greed. As society changed, becoming less agrarian and more industrial, Puritans increasingly made a distinction between interest and usury (exploitive interest).At first glance, the two attitudes seem contradictory, but in fact they are not. Look at what the anti-interest and pro-interest Puritans had in common: they both agreed that money is a social good and that therefore hoarding and exploitation are not permissible. In an increasingly commercial society, the most compassionate act became the willingness to lend money at a modest rate of interest. In Baxter’s words, “There is an usury which is against neither justice nor charity,” and he went on to describe conditions under which it is charitable.Why did the Puritans view money as a social good when, as our modern view shows, it is so much more natural to view it as a person’s own possession? The Puritan outlook stemmed from a firm belief that people are stewards of what God has entrusted to them. Money is ultimately God’s, not ours. In the words of the influential Puritan book, A Godly Form of Household Government, money is “that which God hath lent thee.”The Puritan Critique of The Success EthicModern Western culture is based overwhelmingly on the success ethic—the belief that material prosperity is the ultimate value in life and that a person’s worth can be measured by material or social standards. By contrast, the Puritan Thoman Watson asserted that “blessedness… does not lie in the acquisition of worldly things. Happiness cannot by any art of chemistry be extracted here.” Samuel Hieron was far from the success ethic when he prayed:“Oh, let not mine eyes be dazzled, nor my heart bewitched with the glory and sweetness of these worldly pleasures …. Draw my affection to the love of that durable riches, and to that fruit of heavenly wisdom which is better than gold, and the revenues thereof do surpass the silver, that my chief care may be to have a soul enriched and furnished with Thy grace.” The Puritan Critique of The Self-Made PersonAmerican culture has been strangely enamored of the image of “the self-made person”—the person who becomes rich and famous through his or her own efforts. The idea of having status handed over as a gift does not appeal to such an outlook. Yet the Puritans denied that there can even be such a thing as a self-made person. Based on an ethic of grace, Puritanism viewed prosperity solely as God’s gift. John Preston wrote regarding riches that “it is God that gives them, it is he that dispenseth them, it is he that gives the reward…. The care of the work only belongs to us.” The Puritan Critique of Modern Business EthicsIt has become an axiom of modern business that the goal of business is to make as much profit as possible and that any type of competition or selling practice is acceptable as long as it is legal. The Puritans would not agree. For one thing, they looked upon business as a service to society. “We must therefore think,” wrote John Knewstub, “that when we come to buying and selling, we come to witness our love towards our neighbor by our well dealing with him in his goods.” William Perkins said, “The end of a man’s calling is not to gather riches for himself… but to serve God in the serving of man, and in the seeking the good of all men.”Nor would the Puritans agree with modern methods of competition or profiteering. When citizens in Boston complained that Robert Keayne charged excessive prices, the magistrates fined him two hundred pounds, and he very nearly found himself excommunicated from the church. John Cotton used the trial to lay down some business principles in a public lecture on economics. Cotton denounced as false the following premises:That a man might sell as dear [expensively] as he can, and buy as cheap as he can…. That he may sell as he bought, though he paid too dear, etc., and though the commodity be fallen, etc. That as a man may take advantage of his own skill or ability, so he may of another’s ignorance or necessity.In England John Knewstub showed what a gulf lies between the Puritans and modern commercial practices when he wrote disparagingly of businessmen who: come to buying and selling as it were to the razing and spoiling of some enemy’s city …, where every man catcheth, snatcheth and carrieth away whatsoever he can come by. And he is thought the best who carrieth away the most…. But the Holy Ghost will bring us to another trial of our love. The Puritan Critique of The “Simple Life” PhilosophyModern materialism has produced its own antithesis in the form of people who view affluence and possessions as inherently tainted. The Puritans were closer to such an outlook than to one supporting an affluent lifestyle, but they cannot be fitted comfortably here either. William Perkins wrote, “These earthly things are the good gifts of God, which no man can simply condemn, without injury to God’s disposing hand and providence, who hath ordained them for natural life.” The Puritans were also wary of a blanket condemnation of people who have a higher standard of living than some other people. In Perkin’s words:We must not make one measure of sufficiency of goods necessary for all persons, for it varies according to the diverse conditions of persons, and according to the time and place. More things are necessary to a public person than to a private; and more to him that has a charge than to a single man. The Puritan Critique of SocialismA final force in modern life of which the Puritans would not approve is socialism, whether in its overt form of governmental ownership or in its subtle form of the welfare state. William Ames wrote, “Ownership and differences in the amount of possessions are ordinances of God and approved by him, Prov. 22:2; II Thess. 3:12.” John Robinson commented:God could … either have made men’s states more equal, or have given everyone sufficient of his own. But he hath rather chosen to make some rich, and some poor, that one might stand in need of another, and help another, that so he might try the goodness and mercy of them that are able, in supplying the wants of the rest.As I have suggested, the Puritans would have shared some of the assumptions of many different groups on the economic scene today. But they would stand aghast at what secularism and self-interest have made of principles that they placed in a Christian context. SummaryOne of the ironies in the history of the Puritans is that their very industriousness and plain living tended to make them relatively affluent. Their virtues produced corresponding temptations. On the one hand, the Puritans held attitudes conducive to the amassing of wealth and property: the view that money and property are good in principle, disbelief that poverty is meritorious in itself, and a conviction that the disciplined and hardworking lifestyle is virtuous.On the other hand, to curb the potential for self-indulgence that followed in the wake of their lifestyle, the Puritans had an even longer list of cautions: an awareness that God sends poverty as well as riches, an obsession with the dangers of wealth, the ideal of moderation, a doctrine of stewardship in which God is viewed as the ultimate owner of goods, and a view of money as a social good.

Rahman Jul 29, 2004

How the Lord steered me toward the Puritan ethic on money and wealth is a long story, but it culminated in a question asked in a Tony Robbins course, and a subsequent indepth study of the life of JD Rockefeller Sr. via audiotapes of the book "Titan" ... Mind blowing! ... Certainly not the man history has painted him to be ... This man was the prince of the Puritan ethic in what, and what not to do with money ... If anyone's interested here is a little article i wrote for our church newsletter regarding JDR Sr ...THE DIVIDENDS OF SUNDAY SCHOOL, HARD WORK AND CHEERFUL GIVING " After it is all over, the religion of a man is his most important possession. And with that religion comes the accessories which it brings with it. The Sunday school should be a place, not only where the word of God is taught, but from it should go influences – which help each one to follow carefully in the footsteps of the Master. There is nothing in this world that can compare with the Christian fellowship, nothing that can satisfy but Christ. It is the Sunday school which can bring both. Christ is to be studied and through an acquaintance with His life, and through His words, which have been handed down to us, we can only learn of His love for us, the greatest of that love and sacrifice which led Him to the cross that we, His brothers, might live with Him forever. We can never learn too much of His will towards us, too much of his messages and His advice. The Bible is His word and its study gives at once the foundation for our faith and an inspiration to battle onward in the fight against the tempter. We should learn more of His word, and the Sunday school is the place where all may gather that knowledge of His great love for us that will turn our dark days into brightness, and furnish the glad light which should shine out from our lives as an inspiration for the despondent and heart-sick brother who finds the way of life hard to tread. In our Sunday school let us learn to repeat those passages which show forth best the beauties of holiness. Each class should be taught to repeat at will those inspired words. Passages of Scriptures should be as familiar to our children as are the lessons of education taught in day schools. In some moment of their lives who knows that the warning, the promise learned and understood in the Sunday school, may prove to be the turning point in their lives and save some one from being turned away from the right and swept down the broad road to destruction. And we are never too old to study the Bible. Each time the lessons are studied comes some new meaning, some new thought which will make us better. Don’t forsake the Sunday school because you have reached years of maturity. Stick closer to it as the years go by. Dig deeper into its truths. Make your place early in the Sunday school, and let that place be filled by you as long as you live. It is particularly gratifying to me after my absence to notice the signs of prosperity in the Sunday school. The growth of the school has been exceptional, and I foresee in that growth the new beginning of a marvelous power for good in our city. The Sunday school has been a help to me, greater perhaps than any other force in my Christian life, and I can ask no better things for you, than that you, and all that shall come after you in this great band of workers for Christ, shall receive the same measure of blessedness which I have been permitted to have. When you come to the church or to the Sunday school and associate yourself with it you must put something into it. When the business men associate themselves together for the manufacture of these gas fixtures, or the window glasses or many of the things that we see about us, each man contributes some money for that joint undertaking. In proportion to what they put into this business do they receive returns from their investments or dividends. The more they put in the more they receive in dividends.Now it is not necessary that you put a great amount of money into this work that you are becoming a part of, but that the whole may accomplish the most it is necessary that each contribute something, be it money or what it may. Put something in. And according as you put something in the greater will be your dividends of salvation." John D. Rockefeller Sr. (from a speech given at the Euclid Ave. Baptist Church, to his Sunday school teachers and students, as it’s superintendant and teacher of 49 years) A reporter wrote this of Mr. Rockefeller, “Devoted as he is to his church, Mr. Rockefeller makes much more impression by his charities which are indeed one expression of his religion. Mr. Rockefeller has always held that methodical giving was a part of a Christian's duty. Again and again he has stated this view in his Sunday school talks. “I believe it is a religious duty to get all the money you can fairly, and honestly;" he told young men one day, "to save all you can, and to give away all you can." Will they (the people of the future) say of us, we accumulated wealth” he remarked in a little Cleveland address a few years ago: "No, that will all be forgotten. They will want to know what we did with it. Did we spend it for the benefit of our fellow man? Of that we ought to think”. Such expression are often on his tongue. These are but reflections of his practice of methodical giving since his early childhood. It is evident that his giving is governed by some theory of 10% percent due to the Lord”. Rockefeller stated in 1905, "God gave me my money. I believe the power to make money is a gift from God . . . to be developed & used to the best of our ability for the good of mankind. Having been endowed with the gift I possess, I believe it is my duty to make money and to use that money for the good of my fellow man, according to the dictates of my conscience." What better way to prepare ourselves and our children for the Kings business than by regularly attending or teaching Sunday school. What better way for the King to do business with us but by our “cheerfully” funding His Church, Commision and Charity. Both are sure fire ways of seeking first His kingdom, and His righteousness. Free your mind about the dividends … they are blessedly assured.Bro. Rahman

rookie Jul 31, 2004

Thank of sharing Brother Rahman,A statement from this article:"Richard Mather, in his farewell sermon, said: Experience shows that it is an easy thing in the midst of a worldly business to lose the life and power of religion that nothing thereof should be left but only the external form, as it were the carcass or shell, worldliness having eaten out the kernel and having consumed the very soul and life of godliness."This statement bring a Scripture to mind. "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with the cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity." Luke 8:14Brother Rahman I enjoyed this article of the Puritans. Can you reccommend any books on this subject?In ChristJeff

Rahman Aug 2, 2004

Brother Jeff you posted;---Brother Rahman I enjoyed this article of the Puritans. Can you reccommend any books on this subject?---No i can't recommend any books as our Lord did not lead me in that direction ... But i have listened to every audio sermon on SI regarding Puritans, and here is a link to a Yahoo search on the subject ...http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=fp-pull-web-t&p=BOOKS+ON+PURITANS+AND+MONEYi think the Puritans had the right idea about money, if not on so many subjects of Christian conduct ... No purity, no power ...

rookie Aug 2, 2004

The ways of Satan tempt us through appealing to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. We have discussed some of these temptations. And there is much more to discuss in each of these categories. Yet, there is something common to all of these pursuits. All temptations require our time. Time is really the only thing we have to give. True love can only be expressed with our willingness to give our time to one another. Each breath we take is a gift from God. Yet, I fear, much of our time is spent on futile things. I recently commited to help coach my son's Pop Warner football team. I had not played football for 30 years. I have not watched much football in the last 8 years. So in the last three weeks I have devoted a large amount of time to brush up on the fundamentals and practice 4 times each week. I have spent time watching the ESPN NFL channel. (As a side note, the commercials are filled with temptations appealing to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.)My son who is 11 years old, mentioned to mom that he was concerned for his father. He asked mom, "Do you think that there is a chance that we might find dad sitting home watching football, drinking beer, and eating a pizza?" My son is concerned for my spiritual well being. He has seen the promotion of questionable habits that are pounded into the football watching public. I myself have, so to speak, been caught up with the things of this world. My son has witnessed where I am spending my time. I say to myself, it is only for a season. Yet, am I spending my time on futile things? Do you see how we influence others by the way we spend our time? There is a battle being waged for our time, beware these days are evil.In ChristJeff

rookie Aug 4, 2004

This was the headline back on August 4, 1964."1964: Three civil rights activists found dead The bodies of three civil rights workers missing for six weeks have been found buried in a partially constructed dam near Philadelphia, Mississippi. Agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation found the three young men - two white and one black man - about six miles from the town in a wooded area near where they were last seen on the night of 21 June. They were Michael Schwerner, aged 24, Andrew Goodman, 20, both from New York and James Chaney, 22, from Meridian, Mississippi. All were members of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE) dedicated to non-violent direct action against racial discrimination. As soon as the men were reported missing, the case was made top priority and codenamed Miburn (Mississippi burning). FBI agents headed by Major Case Inspector Joseph Sullivan were sent down to Mississippi to investigate the matter. After a tip-off they found the mens' burnt-out car two days after their disappearance. The bodies have been taken to Jackson, Mississippi, for further examination into the cause of death. It is believed all three had been shot and the finger of blame is pointing at the Ku Klux Klan white supremacist group. Church burned down The three young men had left the CORE office in Meridian six weeks ago to investigate the destruction of a black congregation church in Longdale, Neshoba County because it was used as the site for a "freedom school". The school was set up by Mr Schwerner as part of a wider civil rights campaign in Mississippi teaching black children, among other things, black history and the philosophy of the civil rights movement. The Mount Zion Church was burned down on 16 June by members of the KKK searching for Mr Schwerner. His wife, Rita, made an emotional statement to newspapers today. She said: "My husband, Michael Schwerner, did not die in vain. If he and Andrew Goodman had been negroes, the world would have taken little notice of their deaths. "After all, the slaying of a negro in Mississippi is not news. It is only because my husband and Andrew Goodman were white that the national alarm had been sounded."end of articleThis is just an observation. I hear many say that before the 1960's this nation was a whole lot holier. Well maybe sex, drugs and rock and roll became popular in the 60's, but there was still a whole lot of evil in those days too. It is easy to want to romantise the past, but what is the truth? The church was segregated then, and still is to some extent. Where is Jesus?In ChristJeff

Rahman Aug 4, 2004

Brother Jeff you posted the ?;--- This is just an observation. I hear many say that before the 1960's this nation was a whole lot holier. Well maybe sex, drugs and rock and roll became popular in the 60's, but there was still a whole lot of evil in those days too. It is easy to want to romantise the past, but what is the truth? ---My observation of then and now ... "It was a lot less Satanic".

rookie Aug 9, 2004

"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, Peace and safety! then sudden destruction come upon them as labor pains upon a pregnant worman, and they shall not escape." 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.I came across this timeline of terrorist activity. Notice it resembles the labor pains of a woman. "Bombing of Marine Barracks, Beirut, October 23, 1983: Simultaneous suicide truck-bomb attacks were made on American and French compounds in Beirut, Lebanon. A 12,000-pound bomb destroyed the U.S. compound, killing 242 Americans, while 58 French troops were killed when a 400-pound device destroyed a French base. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. 1984 Kidnapping of Embassy Official, March 16, 1984: The Islamic Jihad kidnapped and later murdered Political Officer William Buckley in Beirut, Lebanon. Other U.S. citizens not connected to the U.S. government were seized over a succeeding two-year period. Restaurant Bombing in Spain, April 12, 1984: Eighteen U.S. servicemen were killed and 83 people were injured in a bomb attack on a restaurant near a U.S. Air Force Base in Torrejon, Spain. . 1985 WA Hijacking, June 14, 1985: A Trans-World Airlines flight was hijacked en route to Rome from Athens by two Lebanese Hizballah terrorists and forced to fly to Beirut. The eight crew members and 145 passengers were held for seventeen days, during which one American hostage, a U.S. Navy sailor, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft was returned to Beirut after Israel released 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners. Attack on a Restaurant in El Salvador, June 19, 1985: Members of the FMLN (Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front) fired on a restaurant in the Zona Rosa district of San Salvador, killing four Marine Security Guards assigned to the U.S. Embassy and nine Salvadorean civilians. Soviet Diplomats Kidnapped, September 30, 1985: In Beirut, Lebanon, Sunni terrorists kidnapped four Soviet diplomats. One was killed but three were later released. Achille Lauro Hijacking, October 7, 1985: Four Palestinian Liberation Front terrorists seized the Italian cruise liner in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, taking more than 700 hostages. One U.S. passenger was murdered before the Egyptian government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages’ freedom. Egyptian Airliner Hijacking, November 23, 1985: An EgyptAir airplane bound from Athens to Malta and carrying several U.S. citizens was hijacked by the Abu Nidal Group. Airport Attacks in Rome and Vienna, December 27, 1985: Four gunmen belonging to the Abu Nidal Organization attacked the El Al and Trans World Airlines ticket counters at Rome’s Leonardo da Vinci Airport with grenades and automatic rifles. Thirteen persons were killed and 75 were wounded before Italian police and Israeli security guards killed three of the gunmen and captured the fourth. Three more Abu Nidal gunmen attacked the El Al ticket counter at Vienna’s Schwechat Airport, killing three persons and wounding 30. Austrian police killed one of the gunmen and captured the others. 1986 Aircraft Bombing in Greece, March 30, 1986: A Palestinian splinter group detonated a bomb as TWA Flight 840 approached Athens airport, killing four U.S. citizens. Berlin Discothèque Bombing, April 5, 1986: Two U.S. soldiers were killed and 79 American servicemen were injured in a Libyan bomb attack on a nightclub in West Berlin, West Germany. In retaliation U.S. military jets bombed targets in and around Tripoli and Benghazi. Kimpo Airport Bombing, September 14, 1986: North Korean agents detonated an explosive device at Seoul’s Kimpo airport, killing 5 persons and injuring 29 others. 1987 Bus Attack, April 24, 1987: Sixteen U.S. servicemen riding in a Greek Air Force bus near Athens were injured in an apparent bombing attack, carried out by the revolutionary organization known as November 17. Downing of Airliner, November 29, 1987: North Korean agents planted a bomb aboard Korean Air Lines Flight 858, which subsequently crashed into the Indian Ocean. Servicemen’s Bar Attack, December 26, 1987: Catalan separatists bombed a Barcelona bar frequented by U.S. servicemen, resulting in the death of one U.S. citizen. 1988 Kidnapping of William Higgins, February 17, 1988: U.S. Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel W. Higgins was kidnapped and murdered by the Iranian-backed Hizballah group while serving with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO) in southern Lebanon. Naples USO Attack, April 14, 1988: The Organization of Jihad Brigades exploded a car-bomb outside a USO Club in Naples, Italy, killing one U.S. sailor. Attack on U.S. Diplomat in Greece, June 28, 1988: The Defense Attaché of the U.S. Embassy in Greece was killed when a car-bomb was detonated outside his home in Athens. Pan Am 103 Bombing, December 21, 1988: Pan American Airlines Flight 103 was blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb believed to have been placed on the aircraft by Libyan terrorists in Frankfurt, West Germany. All 259 people on board were killed. 1989 Bombing of UTA Flight 772, September 19, 1989: A bomb explosion destroyed UTA Flight 772 over the Sahara Desert in southern Niger during a flight from Brazzaville to Paris. All 170 persons aboard were killed. Six Libyans were later found guilty in absentia and sentenced to life imprisonment. 1990 U.S. Soldiers Assassinated in the Philippines, May 13, 1990: The New People’s Army (NPA) killed two U.S. Air Force personnel near Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines. 1991 Attempted Iraqi Attacks on U.S. Posts, January 18-19, 1991: Iraqi agents planted bombs at the U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia’s home residence and at the USIS library in Manila. Sniper Attack on the U.S. Embassy in Bonn, February 13, 1991: Three Red Army Faction members fired automatic rifles from across the Rhine River at the U.S. Embassy Chancery. No one was hurt. Assassination of former Indian Prime Minister, May 21, 1991: A female member of the LTTE (Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam) killed herself, Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, and 16 others by detonating an explosive vest after presenting a garland of flowers to the former Prime Minister during an election rally in the Indian state of Tamil Nadu. 1992 Kidnapping of U.S. Businessmen in the Philippines, January 17-21, 1992: A senior official of the corporation Philippine Geothermal was kidnapped in Manila by the Red Scorpion Group, and two U.S. businessmen were seized independently by the National Liberation Army and by Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC). Bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Argentina, March 17, 1992: Hizballah claimed responsibility for a blast that leveled the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, causing the deaths of 29 and wounding 242. 1993 Kidnappings of U.S. Citizens in Colombia, January 31, 1993: Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) terrorists kidnapped three U.S. missionaries. World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993: The World Trade Center in New York City was badly damaged when a car bomb planted by Islamic terrorists exploded in an underground garage. The bomb left 6 people dead and 1,000 injured. The men carrying out the attack were followers of Umar Abd al-Rahman, an Egyptian cleric who preached in the New York City area. Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack 2 months later on the Iraqi capital Baghdad. 1994 Hebron Massacre, February 25, 1994: Jewish right-wing extremist and U.S. citizen Baruch Goldstein machine-gunned Moslem worshippers at a mosque in West Bank town of Hebron, killing 29 and wounding about 150. FARC Hostage-taking, September 23, 1994: FARC rebels kidnapped U.S. citizen Thomas Hargrove in Colombia. Air France Hijacking, December 24, 1994: Members of the Armed Islamic Group seized an Air France Flight to Algeria. The four terrorists were killed during a rescue effort. 1995 Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995: Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan. Tokyo Subway Station Attack, March 20, 1995: Twelve persons were killed and 5,700 were injured in a Sarin nerve gas attack on a crowded subway station in the center of Tokyo, Japan. A similar attack occurred nearly simultaneously in the Yokohama subway system. The Aum Shinri-kyo cult was blamed for the attacks. Bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, April 19, 1995: Right-wing extremists Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols destroyed the Federal Building in Oklahoma City with a massive truck bomb that killed 166 and injured hundreds more in what was up to then the largest terrorist attack on American soil. Kashmiri Hostage-taking, July 4, 1995: In India six foreigners, including two U.S. citizens, were taken hostage by Al-Faran, a Kashmiri separatist group. One non-U.S. hostage was later found beheaded. Jerusalem Bus Attack, August 21, 1995: HAMAS claimed responsibility for the detonation of a bomb that killed 6 and injured over 100 persons, including several U.S. citizens. Attack on U.S. Embassy in Moscow, September 13, 1995: A rocket-propelled grenade was fired through the window of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, ostensibly in retaliation for U.S. strikes on Serb positions in Bosnia. Saudi Military Installation Attack, November 13, 1995: The Islamic Movement of Change planted a bomb in a Riyadh military compound that killed one U.S. citizen, several foreign national employees of the U.S. government, and over 40 others. Egyptian Embassy Attack, November 19, 1995: A suicide bomber drove a vehicle into the Egyptian Embassy compound in Islamabad, Pakistan, killing at least 16 and injuring 60 persons. Three militant Islamic groups claimed responsibility. 1996 Papuan Hostage Abduction, January 8, 1996: In Indonesia, 200 Free Papua Movement (OPM) guerrillas abducted 26 individuals in the Lorenta nature preserve, Irian Jaya Province. Indonesian Special Forces members rescued the remaining nine hostages on May 15. Kidnapping in Colombia, January 19, 1996: Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) guerrillas kidnapped a US citizen and demanded a $1 million ransom. The hostage was released on May 22. Tamil Tigers Attack, January 31, 1996: Members of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) rammed an explosives-laden truck into the Central Bank in the heart of downtown Colombo, Sri Lanka, killing 90 civilians and injuring more than 1,400 others, including 2 US citizens. IRA Bombing, February 9, 1996: An Irish Republican Army (IRA) bomb detonated in London, killing 2 persons and wounding more than 100 others, including 2 U.S. citizens. Athens Embassy Attack, February 15, 1996: Unidentified assailants fired a rocket at the U.S. Embassy compound in Athens, causing minor damage to three diplomatic vehicles and some surrounding buildings. Circumstances of the attack suggested it was an operation carried out by the 17 November group. ELN Kidnapping, February 16, 1996: Six alleged National Liberation Army (ELN) guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. citizen in Colombia. After 9 months, the hostage was released. HAMAS Bus Attack, February 26, 1996: In Jerusalem, a suicide bomber blew up a bus, killing 26 persons, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring some 80 persons, including three other US citizens. Dizengoff Center Bombing, March 4, 1996: HAMAS and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) both claimed responsibility for a bombing outside of Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall that killed 20 persons and injured 75 others, including 2 U.S. citizens. West Bank Attack, May 13, 1996: Arab gunmen opened fire on a bus and a group of Yeshiva students near the Bet El settlement, killing a dual U.S./Israeli citizen and wounding three Israelis. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but HAMAS was suspected. AID Worker Abduction, May 31, 1996: A gang of former Contra guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. employee of the Agency for International Development (AID) who was assisting with election preparations in rural northern Nicaragua. She was released unharmed the next day after members of the international commission overseeing the preparations intervened. Zekharya Attack, June 9, 1996: Unidentified gunmen opened fire on a car near Zekharya, killing a dual U.S./Israeli citizen and an Israeli. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) was suspected. Manchester Truck Bombing, June 15, 1996: An IRA truck bomb detonated at a Manchester shopping center, wounding 206 persons, including two German tourists, and caused extensive property damage. Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the US military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack. ETA Bombing, July 20, 1996: A bomb exploded at Tarragona International Airport in Reus, Spain, wounding 35 persons, including British and Irish tourists. The Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA) organization was suspected. Bombing of Archbishop of Oran, August 1, 1996: A bomb exploded at the home of the French Archbishop of Oran, killing him and his chauffeur. The attack occurred after the Archbishop's meeting with the French Foreign Minister. The Algerian Armed Islamic Group (GIA) is suspected. Sudanese Rebel Kidnapping, August 17, 1996: Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA) rebels kidnapped six missionaries in Mapourdit, including a U.S. citizen, an Italian, three Australians, and a Sudanese. The SPLA released the hostages 11 days later. PUK Kidnapping, September 13, 1996: In Iraq, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) militants kidnapped four French workers for Pharmaciens Sans Frontieres, a Canadian United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) official, and two Iraqis. Assassination of South Korean Consul, October 1, 1996: In Vladivostok, Russia, assailants attacked and killed a South Korean consul near his home. No one claimed responsibility, but South Korean authorities believed that the attack was carried out by professionals and that the assailants were North Koreans. North Korean officials denied the country's involvement in the attack. Red Cross Worker Kidnappings, November 1, 1996: In Sudan a breakaway group from the Sudanese People's Liberation Army (SPLA) kidnapped three International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) workers, including a U.S. citizen, an Australian, and a Kenyan. On 9 December the rebels released the hostages in exchange for ICRC supplies and a health survey for their camp. Paris Subway Explosion, December 3, 1996: A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train as it arrived at the Port Royal station, killing two French nationals, a Moroccan, and a Canadian, and injuring 86 persons. Among those injured were one U.S. citizen and a Canadian. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but Algerian extremists are suspected. Abduction of US. Citizen by FARC, December 11, 1996: Five armed men claiming to be members of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) kidnapped and later killed a U.S. geologist at a methane gas exploration site in La Guajira Department. Tupac Amaru Seizure of Diplomats, December 17, 1996: Twenty-three members of the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA) took several hundred people hostage at a party given at the Japanese Ambassador's residence in Lima, Peru. Among the hostages were several US officials, foreign ambassadors and other diplomats, Peruvian Government officials, and Japanese businessmen. The group demanded the release of all MRTA members in prison and safe passage for them and the hostage takers. The terrorists released most of the hostages in December but held 81 Peruvians and Japanese citizens for several months. 1997 Egyptian Letter Bombs, January 2-13, 1997: A series of letter bombs with Alexandria, Egypt, postmarks were discovered at Al-Hayat newspaper bureaus in Washington, New York City, London, and Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Three similar devices, also postmarked in Egypt, were found at a prison facility in Leavenworth, Kansas. Bomb disposal experts defused all the devices, but one detonated at the Al-Hayat office in London, injuring two security guards and causing minor damage. Tajik Hostage Abductions, February 4-17, 1997: Near Komsomolabad, Tajikistan, a paramilitary group led by Bakhrom Sodirov abducted four United Nations (UN) military observers. The victims included two Swiss, one Austrian, one Ukrainian, and their Tajik interpreter. The kidnappers demanded safe passage for their supporters from Afghanistan to Tajikistan. In four separate incidents occurring between Dushanbe and Garm, Bakhrom Sodirov and his group kidnapped two International Committee for the Red Cross members, four Russian journalists and their Tajik driver, four UNHCR members, and the Tajik Security Minister, Saidamir Zukhurov. Venezuelan Abduction, February 14, 1997: Six armed Colombian guerrillas kidnapped a US oil engineer and his Venezuelan pilot in Apure, Venezuela. The kidnappers released the Venezuelan pilot on 22 February. According to authorities, the FARC is responsible for the kidnapping. Empire State Building Sniper Attack, February 23, 1997: A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine." ELN Kidnapping, February 24, 1997: National Liberation Army (ELN) guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. citizen employed by a Las Vegas gold corporation who was scouting a gold mining operation in Colombia. The ELN demanded a ransom of $2.5 million. FARC Kidnapping, March 7, 1997: FARC guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. mining employee and his Colombian colleague who were searching for gold in Colombia. On November 16, the rebels released the two hostages after receiving a $50,000 ransom. Hotel Nacional Bombing, July 12, 1997: A bomb exploded at the Hotel Nacional in Havana, injuring three persons and causing minor damage. A previously unknown group calling itself the Military Liberation Union claimed responsibility. Israeli Shopping Mall Bombing, September 4, 1997: Three suicide bombers of HAMAS detonated bombs in the Ben Yehuda shopping mall in Jerusalem, killing eight persons, including the bombers, and wounding nearly 200 others. A dual U.S./Israeli citizen was among the dead, and 7 U.S. citizens were wounded. OAS Abductions, October 23, 1997: In Colombia ELN rebels kidnapped two foreign members of the Organization of American States (OAS) and a Colombian human rights official at a roadblock. The ELN claimed that the kidnapping was intended "to show the international community that the elections in Colombia are a farce." Yemeni Kidnappings, October 30, 1997: Al-Sha'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa. The tribesmen sought the release of two fellow tribesmen who were arrested on smuggling charges and several public works projects they claim the government promised them. They released the hostage on November 27. Murder of U.S. Businessmen in Pakistan, November 12, 1997: Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum Corporation and their Pakistani driver after they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. The Islami Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council, claimed responsibility in a call to the U.S. Consulate in Karachi. In a letter to Pakistani newspapers, the Aimal Khufia Action Committee also claimed responsibility. Tourist Killings in Egypt, November 17, 1997: Al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya (IG) gunmen shot and killed 58 tourists and four Egyptians and wounded 26 others at the Hatshepsut Temple in the Valley of the Kings near Luxor. Thirty-four Swiss, eight Japanese, five Germans, four Britons, one French, one Colombian, a dual Bulgarian/British citizen, and four unidentified persons were among the dead. Twelve Swiss, two Japanese, two Germans, one French, and nine Egyptians were among the wounded. 1998 UN Observer Abductions, February 19, 1998: Armed supporters of late Georgian president Zviad Gamsakhurdia abducted four UN military observers from Sweden, Uruguay, and the Czech Republic. FARC Abduction, March 21-23, 1998: FARC rebels kidnapped a US citizen in Sabaneta, Colombia. FARC members also killed three persons, wounded 14, and kidnapped at least 27 others at a roadblock near Bogota. Four U.S. citizens and one Italian were among those kidnapped, as well as the acting president of the National Electoral Council (CNE) and his wife. Somali Hostage-takings, April 15, 1998: Somali militiamen abducted nine Red Cross and Red Crescent workers at an airstrip north of Mogadishu. The hostages included a U.S. citizen, a German, a Belgian, a French, a Norwegian, two Swiss, and one Somali. The gunmen were members of a sub-clan loyal to Ali Mahdi Mohammed, who controlled the northern section of the capital. IRA Bombing, Banbridge, August 1, 1998: A 500-pound car bomb planted by the Real IRA exploded outside a shoe store in Banbridge, North Ireland, injuring 35 persons and damaging at least 200 homes. U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. Approximately 5,000 Kenyans, 6 U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured. The U.S. Embassy building sustained extensive structural damage. Almost simultaneously, a bomb detonated outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing 7 FSNs and 3 Tanzanian citizens, and injuring 1 U.S. citizen and 76 Tanzanians. The explosion caused major structural damage to the U.S. Embassy facility. The U.S. Government held Usama Bin Laden responsible. IRA Bombing, Omagh, August 15, 1998: A 500-pound car bomb planted by the Real IRA exploded outside a local courthouse in the central shopping district of Omagh, Northern Ireland, killing 29 persons and injuring over 330. Colombian Pipeline Bombing, October 18, 1998: A National Liberation Army (ELN) planted bomb exploded on the Ocensa pipeline in Antioquia Department, killing approximately 71 persons and injuring at least 100 others. The pipeline is jointly owned by the Colombia State Oil Company Ecopetrol and a consortium including U.S., French, British, and Canadian companies. Armed Kidnapping in Colombia, November 15, 1998: Armed assailants followed a U.S. businessman and his family home in Cundinamarca Department and kidnapped his 11-year-old son after stealing money, jewelry, one automobile, and two cell phones. The kidnappers demanded $1 million in ransom. On January 21, 1999, the kidnappers released the boy. 1999 Angolan Aircraft Downing, January 2, 1999: A UN plane carrying one U.S. citizen, four Angolans, two Philippine nationals and one Namibian was shot down, according to a UN official. No deaths or injuries were reported. Angolan authorities blamed the attack on National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA) rebels. UNITA officials denied shooting down the plane. Ugandan Rebel Attack, February 14, 1999: A pipe bomb exploded inside a bar, killing five persons and injuring 35 others. One Ethiopian and four Ugandan nationals died in the blast, and one U.S. citizen working for USAID, two Swiss nationals, one Pakistani, one Ethiopian, and 27 Ugandans were injured. Ugandan authorities blamed the attack on the Allied Democratic Forces (ADF). Greek Embassy Seizure, February 16, 1999: Kurdish protesters stormed and occupied the Greek Embassy in Vienna, taking the Greek Ambassador and six other persons hostage. Several hours later the protesters released the hostages and left the Embassy. The attack followed the Turkish Government's announcement of the successful capture of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) leader Abdullah Ocalan. Kurds also occupied Kenyan, Israeli, and other Greek diplomatic facilities in France, Holland, Switzerland, Britain, and Germany over the following days. FARC Kidnappings, February 25, 1999: FARC kidnapped three U.S. citizens working for the Hawaii-based Pacific Cultural Conservancy International. On March 4, the bodies of the three victims were found in Venezuela. Hutu Abductions, March 1, 1999: 150 armed Hutu rebels attacked three tourist camps in Uganda, killed four Ugandans, and abducted three U.S. citizens, six Britons, three New Zealanders, two Danish citizens, one Australian, and one Canadian national. Two of the U.S. citizens and six of the other hostages were subsequently killed by their abductors. ELN Hostage-taking, March 23, 1999: Armed guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. citizen in Boyaca, Colombia. The National Liberation Army (ELN) claimed responsibility and demanded $400,000 ransom. On 20 July, ELN rebels released the hostage unharmed following a ransom payment of $48,000. ELN Hostage-taking, May 30, 1999: In Cali, Colombia, armed ELN militants attacked a church in the neighborhood of Ciudad Jardin, kidnapping 160 persons, including six U.S. citizens and one French national. The rebels released approximately 80 persons, including three U.S. citizens, later that day. Shell Platform Bombing, June 27, 1999: In Port Harcourt, Nigeria, armed youths stormed a Shell oil platform, kidnapping one U.S. citizen, one Nigerian national, and one Australian citizen, and causing undetermined damage. A group calling itself "Enough is Enough in the Niger River" claimed responsibility. Further seizures of oil facilities followed. AFRC Kidnappings, August 4, 1999: An Armed Forces Revolutionary Council (AFRC) faction kidnapped 33 UN representatives near Occra Hills, Sierra Leone. The hostages included one U.S. citizen, five British soldiers, one Canadian citizen, one representative from Ghana, one military officer from Russia, one officer from Kyrgystan, one officer from Zambia, one officer from Malaysia, a local Bishop, two UN officials, two local journalists, and 16 Sierra Leonean nationals. Burmese Embassy Seizure, October 1, 1999: Burmese dissidents seized the Burmese Embassy in Bangkok, Thailand, taking 89 persons hostage, including one U.S. citizen. PLA Kidnapping, December 23, 1999: Colombian People’s Liberation Army (PLA) forces kidnapped a U.S. citizen in an unsuccessful ransoming effort. Indian Airlines Airbus Hijacking, December 24, 1999: Five militants hijacked a flight bound from Katmandu to New Delhi carrying 189 people. The plane and its passengers were released unharmed on December 31. 2000 Car bombing in Spain, January 27, 2000: Police officials reported unidentified individuals set fire to a Citroen car dealership in Iturreta, causing extensive damage to the building and destroying 12 vehicles. The attack bore the hallmark of the Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA). RUF Attacks on U.N. Mission Personnel, May 1, 2000: On 1 May in Makeni, Sierra Leone, Revolutionary United Front (RUF) militants kidnapped at least 20 members of the United Nations Assistance Mission in Sierra Leone (UNAMSIL) and surrounded and opened fire on a UNAMSIL facility, according to press reports. The militants killed five UN soldiers in the attack. RUF militants kidnapped 300 UNAMSIL peacekeepers throughout the country, according to press reports. On 15 May in Foya, Liberia, the kidnappers released 139 hostages. On 28 May, on the Liberia and Sierra Leone border, armed militants released unharmed the last of the UN peacekeepers. In Freetown, according to press reports, armed militants ambushed two military vehicles carrying four journalists. A Spaniard and one U.S. citizen were killed in a May 25 car bombing in Freetown for which the RUF was probably responsible. Suspected RUF rebels also kidnapped 21 Indian UN peacekeepers in Freetown on June 6. Additional attacks by RUF on foreign personnel followed. Diplomatic Assassination in Greece, June 8, 2000: In Athens, Greece, two unidentified gunmen killed British Defense Attaché Stephen Saunders in an ambush. The Revolutionary Organization 17 November claimed responsibility. ELN Kidnapping, June 27, 2000: In Bogota, Colombia, ELN militants kidnapped a 5-year-old U.S. citizen and his Colombian mother, demanding an undisclosed ransom. Kidnappings in Kyrgyzstan, August 12, 2000: In the Kara-Su Valley, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan took four U.S. citizens hostage. The Americans escaped on August 12. Church Bombing in Tajikistan, October 1, 2000: Unidentified militants detonated two bombs in a Christian church in Dushanbe, killing seven persons and injuring 70 others. The church was founded by a Korean-born U.S. citizen, and most of those killed and wounded were Korean. No one claimed responsibility. Helicopter Hijacking, October 12, 2000: In Sucumbios Province, Ecuador, a group of armed kidnappers led by former members of defunct Colombian terrorist organization the Popular Liberation Army (EPL), took hostage 10 employees of Spanish energy consortium REPSOL. Those kidnapped included five U.S. citizens, one Argentine, one Chilean, one New Zealander, and two French pilots who escaped four days later. On January 30, 2001, the kidnappers murdered American hostage Ronald Sander. The remaining hostages were released on February 23 following the payment of $13 million in ransom by the oil companies. Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Laden were suspected. Manila Bombing, December 30, 2000: A bomb exploded in a plaza across the street from the U.S. Embassy in Manila, injuring nine persons. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front was likely responsible. 2001 Srinagar Airport Attack and Assassination Attempt, January 17, 2001: In India, six members of the Lashkar-e-Tayyba militant group were killed when they attempted to seize a local airport. Members of Hizbul Mujaheddin fired two rifle grenades at Farooq Abdullah, Chief Minister for Jammu and Kashmir. Two persons were wounded in the unsuccessful assassination attempt. BBC Studios Bombing, March 4, 2001: A car bomb exploded at midnight outside of the British Broadcasting Corporation’s main production studios in London. One person was injured. British authorities suspected the Real IRA had planted the bomb. Suicide Bombing in Israel, March 4, 2001: A suicide bomb attack in Netanya killed 3 persons and wounded 65. HAMAS later claimed responsibility. ETA Bombing, March 9, 2001: Two policemen were killed by the explosion of a car bomb in Hernani, Spain. Airliner Hijacking in Istanbul, March 15, 2001: Three Chechens hijacked a Russian airliner during a flight from Istanbul to Moscow and forced it to fly to Medina, Saudi Arabia. The plane carried 162 passengers and a crew of 12. After a 22-hour siege during which more than 40 passengers were released, Saudi security forces stormed the plane, killing a hijacker, a passenger, and a flight attendant. Bus Stop Bombing, April 22, 2001: A member of HAMAS detonated a bomb he was carrying near a bus stop in Kfar Siva, Israel, killing one person and injuring 60. Philippines Hostage Incident, May 27, 2001: Muslim Abu Sayyaf guerrillas seized 13 tourists and 3 staff members at a resort on Palawan Island and took their captives to Basilan Island. The captives included three U.S. citizens: Guellermo Sobero and missionaries Martin and Gracia Burnham. Philippine troops fought a series of battles with the guerrillas between June 1 and June 3 during which 9 hostages escaped and two were found dead. The guerrillas took additional hostages when they seized the hospital in the town of Lamitan. On June 12, Abu Sayyaf spokesman Abu Sabaya claimed that Sobero had been killed and beheaded; his body was found in October. The Burnhams remained in captivity until June 2002. Tel-Aviv Nightclub Bombing, June 1, 2001: HAMAS claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing of a popular Israeli nightclub that caused over 140 casualties. HAMAS Restaurant Bombing, August 9, 2001: A HAMAS-planted bomb detonated in a Jerusalem pizza restaurant, killing 15 people and wounding more than 90. The Israeli response included occupation of Orient House, the Palestine Liberation Organization’s political headquarters in East Jerusalem. Suicide Bombing in Israel, September 9, 2001: The first suicide bombing carried out by an Israeli Arab killed 3 persons in Nahariya. HAMAS claimed responsibility. Death of "the Lion of the Panjshir", September 9, 2001: Two suicide bombers fatally wounded Ahmed Shah Massoud, a leader of Afghanistan’s Northern Alliance, which had opposed both the Soviet occupation and the post-Soviet Taliban government. The bombers posed as journalists and were apparently linked to al-Qaida. The Northern Alliance did not confirm Massoud’s death until September 15. Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001: Two hijacked airliners crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Soon thereafter, the Pentagon was struck by a third hijacked plane. A fourth hijacked plane, suspected to be bound for a high-profile target in Washington, crashed into a field in southern Pennsylvania. The attacks killed 3,025 U.S. citizens and other nationals. President Bush and Cabinet officials indicated that Usama Bin Laden was the prime suspect and that they considered the United States in a state of war with international terrorism. In the aftermath of the attacks, the United States formed the Global Coalition Against Terrorism. Attack on the Jammu and Kashmir Legislature, October 1, 2001: After a suicide car bomber forced the gate of the state legislature in Srinagar, two gunmen entered the building and held off police for seven hours before being killed. Forty persons died in the incident. Jaish-e-Muhammad claimed responsibility. Anthrax Attacks, October-November 2001: On October 7 the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported that investigators had detected evidence that the deadly anthrax bacterium was present in the building where a Florida man who died of anthrax on October 5 had worked. Discovery of a second anthrax case triggered a major investigation by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The two anthrax cases were the first to appear in the United States in 25 years. Anthrax subsequently appeared in mail received by television networks in New York and by the offices in Washington of Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle and other members of Congress. Attorney General John Ashcroft said in a briefing on October 16, "When people send anthrax through the mail to hurt people and invoke terror, it’s a terrorist act." Assassination of an Israeli Cabinet Minister, October 17, 2001: A Palestinian gunman assassinated Israeli Minister of Tourism Rehavam Zeevi in the Jerusalem hotel where he was staying. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) claimed to have avenged the death of PFLP Mustafa Zubari. Attack on a Church in Pakistan, October 28, 2001: Six masked gunmen shot up a church in Bahawalpur, Pakistan, killing 15 Pakistani Christians. No group claimed responsibility, although various militant Muslim groups were suspected. Suicide Bombings in Jerusalem, December 1, 2001: Two suicide bombers attacked a Jerusalem shopping mall, killing 10 persons and wounding 170. Suicide Bombing in Haifa, December 2, 2001: A suicide bomb attack aboard a bus in Haifa, Israel, killed 15 persons and wounded 40. HAMAS claimed responsibility for both this attack and those on December 1 to avenge the death of a HAMAS member at the hands of Israeli forces a week earlier. Attack on the Indian Parliament, December 13, 2001: Five gunmen attacked the Indian Parliament in New Delhi shortly after it had adjourned. Before security forces killed them, the attackers killed 6 security personnel and a gardener. Indian officials blamed Lashkar-e-Tayyiba and demanded that Pakistan crack down on it and on other Muslim separatist groups in Kashmir. 2002 Ambush on the West Bank, January 15, 2002: Palestinian militants fired on a vehicle in Beit Sahur, killing one passenger and wounding the other. The dead passenger claimed U.S. and Israeli citizenship. The al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Battalion claimed responsibility. Shooting Incident in Israel, January 17, 2002: A Palestinian gunman killed 6 persons and wounded 25 in Hadera, Israel, before being killed by Israeli police. The al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed responsibility as revenge for Israel’s killing of a leading member of the group. Drive-By Shooting at a U.S. Consulate, January 22, 2002: Armed militants on motorcycles fired on the U.S. Consulate in Calcutta, India, killing 5 Indian security personnel and wounding 13 others. The Harakat ul-Jihad-I-Islami and the Asif Raza Commandoes claimed responsibility. Indian police later killed two suspects, one of whom confessed to belonging to Lashkar-e-Tayyiba as he died. Bomb Explosion in Kashmir, January 22, 2002: A bomb exploded in a crowded retail district in Jammu, Kashmir, killing one person and injuring nine. No group claimed responsibility. Kidnapping of Daniel Pearl, January 23, 2002: Armed militants kidnapped Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in Karachi, Pakistan. Pakistani authorities received a videotape on February 20 depicting Pearl’s murder. His grave was found near Karachi on May 16. Pakistani authorities arrested four suspects. Ringleader Ahmad Omar Saeed Sheikh claimed to have organized Pearl’s kidnapping to protest Pakistan’s subservience to the United States, and had belonged to Jaish-e-Muhammad, an Islamic separatist group in Kashmir. All four suspects were convicted on July 15. Saeed Sheikh was sentenced to death, the others to life imprisonment. Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, January 27, 2002: A suicide bomb attack in Jerusalem killed one other person and wounded 100. The incident was the first suicide bombing made by a Palestinian woman. Suicide Bombing in the West Bank, February 16, 2002: A suicide bombing in an outdoor food court in Karmei Shomron killed 4 persons and wounded 27. Two of the dead and two of the wounded were U.S. citizens. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in the West Bank, March 7, 2002: A suicide bombing in a supermarket in the settlement of Ariel wounded 10 persons, one of whom was a U.S. citizen. The PFLP claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, March 9, 2002: A suicide bombing in a Jerusalem restaurant killed 11 persons and wounded 52, one of whom was a U.S. citizen. The al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed responsibility. Drive-By Shooting in Colombia, March 14, 2002: Gunmen on motorcycles shot and killed two U.S. citizens who had come to Cali, Colombia, to negotiate the release of their father, who was a captive of the FARC. No group claimed responsibility. Grenade Attack on a Church in Pakistan, March 17, 2002: Militants threw grenades into the Protestant International Church in Islamabad, Pakistan, during a service attended by diplomatic and local personnel. Five persons, two of them U.S. citizens, were killed and 46 were wounded. The dead Americans were State Department employee Barbara Green and her daughter Kristen Wormsley. Thirteen U.S. citizens were among the wounded. The Lashkar-e-Tayyiba group was suspected. Car Bomb Explosion in Peru, March 20, 2002: A car bomb exploded at a shopping center near the U.S. Embassy in Lima, Peru. Nine persons were killed and 32 wounded. The dead included two police officers and a teenager. Peruvian authorities suspected either the Shining Path rebels or the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement. The attack occurred 3 days before President George W. Bush visited Peru. Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, March 21, 2002: A suicide bombing in Jerusalem killed 3 persons and wounded 86 more, including 2 U.S. citizens. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in Israel, March 27, 2002: A suicide bombing in a noted restaurant in Netanya, Israel, killed 22 persons and wounded 140. One of the dead was a U.S. citizen. The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) claimed responsibility. Temple Bombing in Kashmir, March 30, 2002: A bomb explosion at a Hindu temple in Jammu, Kashmir, killed 10 persons. The Islamic Front claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in the West Bank, March 31, 2002: A suicide bombing near an ambulance station in Efrat wounded four persons, including a U.S. citizen. The al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed responsibility. Armed attack on Kashmir, April 10, 2002: Armed militants attacked a residence in Gando, Kashmir, killing five persons and wounding four. No group claimed responsibility. Synagogue Bombing in Tunisia, April 11, 2002: A suicide bomber detonated a truck loaded with propane gas outside a historic synagogue in Djerba, Tunisia. The 16 dead included 11 Germans, one French citizen, and three Tunisians. Twenty-six German tourists were injured. The Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Sites claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, April 12, 2002: A female suicide bomber killed 6 persons in Jerusalem and wounded 90 others. The al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed responsibility. Car Bombing in Pakistan, May 8, 2002: A car bomb exploded near a Pakistani navy shuttle bus in Karachi, killing 12 persons and wounding 19. Eleven of the dead and 11 of the wounded were French nationals. Al-Qaida was suspected of the attack. Parade Bombing in Russia, May 9, 2002: A remotely-controlled bomb exploded near a May Day parade in Kaspiisk, Dagestan, killing 42 persons and wounding 150. Fourteen of the dead and 50 of the wounded were soldiers. Islamists linked to al-Qaida were suspected. Attack on a Bus in India, May 14, 2002: Militants fired on a passenger bus in Kaluchak, Jammu, killing 7 persons. They then entered a military housing complex and killed 3 soldiers and 7 military dependents before they were killed. The al-Mansooran and Jamiat ul-Mujahedin claimed responsibility. Bomb Attacks in Kashmir, May 17, 2002: A bomb explosion near a civil secretariat area in Srinagar, Kashmir, wounded 6 persons. In Jammu, a bomb exploded at a fire services headquarters, killing two and wounding 16. No group claimed responsibility for either attack. Hostage Rescue Attempt in the Philippines, June 7, 2002: Philippine Army troops attacked Abu Sayyaf terrorists on Mindanao Island in an attempt to rescue U.S. citizen Martin Burnham and his wife Gracia, who had been kidnapped more than a year ago. Burnham was killed but his wife, though wounded, was freed. A Filipino hostage was killed, as were four of the guerrillas. Seven soldiers were wounded. Car Bombing in Pakistan, June 14, 2002: A car bomb exploded near the U.S. Consulate and the Marriott Hotel in Karachi, Pakistan. Eleven persons were killed and 51 were sounded, including one U.S. and one Japanese citizen. Al Qaida and al-Qanin were suspected. Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, June 19, 2002: A suicide bombing at a bus stop in Jerusalem killed 6 persons and wounded 43, including 2 U.S. citizens. The al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in Tel Aviv, July 17, 2002: Two suicide bombers attacked the old bus station in Tel Aviv, Israel, killing 5 persons and wounding 38. The dead included one Romanian and two Chinese; another Romanian was wounded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. Bombing at the Hebrew University, July 31, 2002: A bomb hidden in a bag in the Frank Sinatra International Student Center of Jerusalem’s Hebrew University killed 9 persons and wounded 87. The dead included 5 U.S. citizens and 4 Israelis. The wounded included 4 U.S. citizens, 2 Japanese, and 3 South Koreans. The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in Israel, August 4, 2002: A suicide bomb attack on a bus in Safed, Israel, killed 9 persons and wounded 50. Two of the dead were Philippine citizens; many of the wounded were soldiers returning from leave. HAMAS claimed responsibility. Attack on a School in Pakistan, August 5, 2002: Gunmen attacked a Christian school attended by children of missionaries from around the world. Six persons (two security guards, a cook, a carpenter, a receptionist, and a private citizen) were killed and a Philippine citizen was wounded. A group called al-Intigami al-Pakistani claimed responsibility. Attack on Pilgrims in Kashmir, August 6, 2002: Armed militants attacked a group of Hindu pilgrims with guns and grenades in Pahalgam, Kashmir. Nine persons were killed and 32 were wounded. The Lashkar-e-Tayyiba claimed responsibility. Assassination in Kashmir, September 11, 2002: Gunmen killed Kashmir’s Law Minister Mushtaq Ahmed Lone and six security guards in Tikipora. Lashkar-e-Tayyiga, Jamiat ul-Mujahedin, and Hizb ul-Mujahedin all claimed responsibility. Other militants attacked the residence of the Minister of Tourism with grenades, injuring four persons. No group claimed responsibility. Ambush on the West Bank, September 18, 2002: Gunmen ambushed a vehicle on a road near Yahad, killing an Israeli and wounding a Romanian worker. The al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed responsibility. Suicide Bomb Attack in Israel, September 19, 2002: A suicide bomb attack on a bus in Tel Aviv killed 6 persons and wounded 52. One of the dead was a British subject. HAMAS claimed responsibility. Attack on a French Tanker, October 6, 2002: An explosive-laden boat rammed the French oil tanker Limburg, which was anchored about 5 miles off al-Dhabbah, Yemen. One person was killed and 4 were wounded. Al-Qaida was suspected. Car Bomb Explosion in Bali, October 12, 2002: A car bomb exploded outside the Sari Club Discotheque in Denpasar, Bali, Indonesia, killing 202 persons and wounding 300 more. Most of the casualties, including 88 of the dead, were Australian tourists. Seven Americans were among the dead. Al-Qaida claimed responsibility. Two suspects were later arrested and convicted. Iman Samudra, who had trained in Afghanistan with al-Qaeda and was suspected of belonging to Jemaah Islamiya, was sentenced to death on September 10, 2003. Chechen Rebels Seize a Moscow Theater, October 23-26, 2002: Fifty Chechen rebels led by Movsar Barayev seized the Palace of Culture Theater in Moscow, Russia, to demand an end to the war in Chechnya. They seized more than 800 hostages from 13 countries and threatened to blow up the theater. During a three-day siege, they killed a Russian policeman and five Russian hostages. On October 26, Russian Special Forces pumped an anesthetic gas through the ventilation system and then stormed the theater. All of the rebels were killed, but 94 hostages (including one American) also died, many from the effects of the gas. A group led by Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev claimed responsibility. Assassination of an AID Official, October 28, 2002: Gunmen in Amman assassinated Laurence Foley, Executive Officer of the U.S. Agency for International Development Mission in Jordan. The Honest People of Jordan claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, November 21, 2002: A suicide bomb attack on a bus on Mexico Street in Jerusalem killed 11 persons and wounded 50 more. One of the dead was a Romanian. HAMAS claimed responsibility. Attack on Temples in Kashmir, November 24, 2002: Armed militants attacked the Reghunath and Shiv temples in Jammu, Kashmir, killing 13 persons and wounding 50. The Lashkare-e-Tayyiba claimed responsibility. Attacks on Israeli Tourists in Kenya, November 28, 2002: A three-person suicide car bomb attack on the Paradise Hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 15 persons and wounded 40. Three of the dead and 18 of the wounded were Israeli tourists; the others were Kenyans. Near Mombasa’s airport, two SA-7 shoulder-fired missiles were fired as an Arkia Airlines Boeing 757 that was carrying 261 passengers back to Israel. Both missiles missed. Al-Qaida, the Government of Universal Palestine in Exile, and the Army of Palestine claimed responsibility for both attacks. Al-Ittihad al-Islami was also suspected of involvement. Attack on a Bus in the Philippines, December 26, 2002: Armed militants ambushed a bus carrying Filipino workers employed by the Canadian Toronto Ventures Inc. Pacific mining company in Zamboanga del Norte. Thirteen persons were killed and 10 wounded. Philippine authorities suspected the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF), which had been extorting money from Toronto Ventures. The Catholic charity Caritas-Philippines said that Toronto Ventures had harassed tribesmen who opposed mining on their ancestral lands. Bombing of a Government Building in Chechnya, December 27, 2002: A suicide bomb attack involving two explosives-laden trucks destroyed the offices of the pro-Russian Chechen government in Grozny. The attack killed over 80 people and wounded 210. According to a Chechen website run by the Kavkaz Center, Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev claimed responsibility. 2003 Suicide Bombings in Tel Aviv, January 5, 2003: Two suicide bomb attacks killed 22 and wounded at least 100 persons in Tel Aviv, Israel. Six of the victims were foreign workers. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed responsibility. Night Club Bombing in Colombia, February 7, 2003: A car bomb exploded outside a night club in Bogota, Colombia, killing 32 persons and wounding 160. No group claimed responsibility, but Colombian officials suspected the Colombian Revolutionary Armed Forces (FARC) of committing the worst terrorist attack in the country in a decade. Assasination of a Kurdish Leader, February 8, 2003: Members of Ansar al-Islam assassinated Kurdish legislator Shawkat Haji Mushir and captured two other Kurdish officials in Qamash Tapa in northern Iraq. Suicide Bombing in Haifa, March 5, 2003: A suicide bombing aboard a bus in Haifa, Israel, killed 15 persons and wounded at least 40. One of the dead claimed U.S. as well as Israeli citizenship. The bomber’s affiliation was not immediately known. Suicide Bombing in Netanya, March 30, 2003: A suicide bombing in a cafe in Netanya, Israel, wounded 38 persons. Only the bomber was killed. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility and called the attack a "gift" to the people of Iraq. Unsuccessful Hostage Rescue Attempt in Colombia, May 5, 2003: The FARC killed 10 hostages when Colombian special forces tried to rescue them from a jungle hideout near Urrao, in Colombia’s Antioquia State. The dead included Governor Guillermo Gavira and former Defense Minister Gilberto Echeverri Mejia, who had been kidnapped in April 2002. Truck Bomb Attacks in Saudi Arabia, May 12, 2003: Suicide bombers attacked three residential compounds for foreign workers in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. The 34 dead included 9 attackers, 7 other Saudis, 9 U.S. citizens, and one citizen each from the United Kingdom, Ireland, and the Philippines. Another American died on June 1. It was the first major attack on U.S. targets in Saudi Arabia since the end of the war in Iraq. Saudi authorities arrested 11 al-Qaida suspects on May 28. Truck Bombing in Chechnya, May 12, 2003: A truck bomb explosion demolished a government compound in Znamenskoye, Chechnya, killing 54 persons. Russian authorities blamed followers of a Saudi-born Islamist named Abu Walid. President Vladimir Putin said that he suspected that there was an al-Qaida connection. Attempted Assassination in Chechnya, May 12, 2003: Two female suicide bombers attacked Chechen Administrator Mufti Akhmed Kadyrov during a religious festival in Iliskhan Yurt. Kadyrov escaped injury, but 14 other persons were killed and 43 were wounded. Chechen rebel leader Shamil Basayev claimed responsibility. Suicide Bomb Attacks in Morocco, May 16, 2003: A team of 12 suicide bombers attacked five targets in Casablanca, Morocco, killing 43 persons and wounding 100. The targets were a Spanish restaurant, a Jewish community, a Jewish cemetery, a hotel, and the Belgian Consulate. The Moroccan Government blamed the Islamist al-Assirat al-Moustaquim (The Righteous Path), but foreign commentators suspected an al-Qaida connection. Suicide Bomb Attack in Jerusalem, May 18, 2003: A suicide bomb attack on a bus in Jerusalem’s French Hill district killed 7 persons and wounded 20. The bomber was disguised as a religious Jew. HAMAS claimed responsibility Suicide Bombing in Afula, May 19, 2003: A suicide bomb attack by a female Palestinian student killed 3 persons and wounded 52 at a shopping mall in Afula, Israel. Both Islamic Jihad and the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, June 11, 2003: A suicide bombing aboard a bus in Jerusalem killed 16 persons and wounded at least 70, one of whom died later. HAMAS claimed responsibility, calling it revenge for an Israeli helicopter attack on HAMAS leader Abdelaziz al-Rantisi in Gaza City the day before. Truck Bombing in Northern Ossetia, August 1, 2003: A suicide truck bomb attack destroyed a Russian military hospital in Mozdok, North Ossetia and killed 50 persons. Russian authorities attributed the attack to followers of Chechen rebel leader Shamil Basayev. Hotel Bombing in Indonesia, August 5, 2003: A car bomb exploded outside the Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia, killing 10 persons and wounding 150. One of the dead was a Dutch citizen. The wounded included an American, a Canadian, an Australian, and two Chinese. Indonesian authorities suspected the Jemaah Islamiah, which had carried out the October 12, 2002 bombing in Bali. Bombing of the Jordanian Embassy in Baghdad, August 7, 2003: A car bomb exploded outside the Jordanian Embassy in Baghdad, Iraq, killing 19 persons and wounding 65. Most of the victims were apparently Iraqis, including 5 police officers. No group claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombings in Israel and the West Bank, August 12, 2003: The first suicide bombings since the June 29 Israeli-Palestinian truce took place. The first, in a supermarket at Rosh Haayin, Israel, killed one person and wounded 14. The second, at a bus stop near the Ariel settlement in the West Bank, killed one person and wounded 3. The al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades claimed responsibility for the first; HAMAS claimed responsibility for the second. Bombing of the UN Headquarters in Baghdad, August 19, 2003: A truck loaded with surplus Iraqi ordnance exploded outside the United Nations Headquarters in Baghdad’s Canal Hotel. A hospital across the street was also heavily damaged. The 23 dead included UN Special Representative Sergio Viera de Mello. More than 100 persons were wounded. It was not clear whether the bomber was a Baath Party loyalist or a foreign Islamic militant. An al-Qaeda branch called the Brigades of the Martyr Abu Hafz al-Masri later claimed responsibility. Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, August 19, 2003: A suicide bombing aboard a bus in Jerusalem killed 20 persons and injured at least 100, one of whom died later. Five of the dead were American citizens. HAMAS and Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility, although HAMAS leader al-Rantisi said that his organization remained committed to the truce while reserving the right to respond to Israeli military actions. Car Bomb Kills Shi’ite Leader in Najaf, August 29, 2003: A car bomb explosion outside the Shrine of the Imam Ali in Najaf, Iraq killed at least 81 persons and wounded at least 140. The dead included the Ayatollah Mohammed Bakir al-Hakim, one of four leading Shi’ite clerics in Iraq. Al-Hakim had been the leader of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) since its establishment in 1982, and SCIRI had recently agreed to work with the U.S.-sponsored Iraqi Governing Council. It was not known whether the perpetrators were Baath Party loyalists, rival Shi’ites, or foreign Islamists. Suicide Bombings in Israel, September 9, 2003: Two suicide bombings took place in Israel. The first, at a bus stop near the Tsrifin army base southeast of Tel Aviv, killed 7 soldiers and wounded 14 soldiers and a civilian. The second, at a café in Jerusalem’s German Colony neighborhood, killed 6 persons and wounded 40. HAMAS did not claim responsibility until the next day, although a spokesman called the first attack" a response to Israeli aggression." Assassination of an Iraqi Governing Council Member, September 20, 2003: Gunmen shot and seriously wounded Akila Hashimi, one of three female members of the Iraqi Governing Council, near her home in Baghdad. She died September 25. A Second Attack on the UN Headquarters in Baghdad, September 22, 2003: A suicide car bomb attack on the UN Headquarters in Baghdad killed a security guard and wounded 19 other persons. Suicide Bombing in Israel, October 4, 2003: A Palestinian woman made a suicide bomb attack on a restaurant in Haifa, killing 19 persons and wounding at least 55. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. The next day, Israel bombed a terrorist training camp in Syria. Attacks in Iraq, October 9, 2003: Gunmen assassinated a Spanish military attaché in Baghdad. A suicide car bomb attack on an Iraqi police station killed 8 persons and wounded 40. Car Bombings in Baghdad, October 12, 2003: Two suicide car bombs exploded outside the Baghdad Hotel, which housed U.S. officials. Six persons were killed and 32 wounded. Iraqi and U.S. security personnel apparently kept the cars from actually reaching the hotel. Bomb Attack on U.S. Diplomats in the Gaza Strip, October 15, 2003: A remote-controlled bomb exploded under a car in a U.S. diplomatic convoy passing through the northern Gaza Strip. Three security guards, all employees of DynCorp, were killed. A fourth was wounded. The diplomats were on their way to interview Palestinian candidates for Fulbright scholarships to study in the United States. Palestinian President Arafat and Prime Minister Qurei condemned the attack, while the major Palestinian militant groups denied responsibility. The next day, Palestinian security forces arrested several suspects, some of whom belonged to the Popular Resistance Committees. Rocket Attack on the al-Rashid Hotel in Baghdad, October 26, 2003: Iraqis using an improvised rocket launcher bombarded the al-Rashid Hotel in Baghdad, killing one U.S. Army officer and wounding 17 persons. The wounded included 4 U.S. military personnel and seven American civilians. Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul D. Wolfowitz, who was staying at the hotel, was not injured. After visiting the wounded, he said, "They’re not going to scare us away; we’re not giving up on this job." Assassination of a Deputy Mayor in Baghdad, October 26, 2003: Two gunmen believed to be Baath Party loyalists assassinated Faris Abdul Razaq al-Assam, one of three deputy mayors of Baghdad. U.S. officials did not announce al-Assam’s death until October 28. Wave of Car Bombings in Baghdad, October 27, 2003: A series of suicide car bombings in Baghdad killed at least 35 persons and wounded at least 230. Four attacks were directed at Iraqi police stations, the fifth and most destructive was directed at the International Committee of the Red Cross headquarters, where at least 12 persons were killed. A sixth attack failed when a car bomb failed to explode and the bomber was wounded and captured by Iraqi police. U.S. and Iraqi officials suspected that foreign terrorists were involved; the unsuccessful bomber said he was a Syrian national and carried a Syrian passport. After a meeting with Administrator L. Paul Bremer, President Bush said, "The more successful we are on the ground, the more these killers will react." Suicide Bombing in Riyadh, November 8, 2003: In Riyadh, a suicide car bombing took place in the Muhaya residential compound, which was occupied mainly by nationals of other Arab countries. Seventeen persons were killed and 122 were wounded. The latter included 4 Americans. The next day, Deputy Secretary of State Armitage said al-Qaeda was probably responsible. Truck Bombing in Nasiriyah, November 12, 2003: A suicide truck bomb destroyed the headquarters of the Italian military police in Nasiriyah, Iraq, killing 18 Italians and 11 Iraqis and wounding at least 100 persons. Synagogue Bombings in Istanbul, November 15, 2003: Two suicide truck bombs exploded outside the Neve Shalom and Beth Israel synagogues in Istanbul, killing 25 persons and wounding at least 300 more. The initial claim of responsibility came from a Turkish militant group, the Great Eastern Islamic Raiders’ Front, but Turkish authorities suspected an al-Qaeda connection. The next day, the London-based newspaper al-Quds al-Arabi received an e-mail in which an al-Qaeda branch called the Brigades of the Martyr Abu Hafz al-Masri claimed responsibility for the Istanbul synagogue bombings. Grenade Attacks in Bogota, November 15, 2003: Grenade attacks on two bars frequented by Americans in Bogota killed one person and wounded 72, including 4 Americans. Colombian authorities suspected FARC (the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia). The U.S. Embassy suspected that the attacks had targeted Americans and warned against visiting commercial centers and places of entertainment. More Suicide Truck Bombings in Istanbul, November 20, 2003: Two more suicide truck bombings devastated the British HSBC Bank and the British Consulate General in Istanbul, killing 27 persons and wounding at least 450. The dead included Consul General Roger Short. U.S., British, and Turkish officials suspected that al-Qaeda had struck again. The U.S. Consulate in Istanbul was closed, and the Embassy in Ankara advised American citizens in Istanbul to stay home. Car Bombing in Kirkuk, November 20, 2003: A suicide car bombing in Kirkuk killed 5 persons. The target appeared to be the headquarters of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. PUK officials suspected the Ansar al-Islam group, which was said to have sheltered fugitive Taliban and al-Qaeda members after the U.S. campaign in Afghanistan. Attacks on Other Coalition Personnel in Iraq, November 29-30, 2003: Iraqi insurgents stepped up attacks on nationals of other members of the Coalition. On November 29, an ambush in Mahmudiyah killed 7 out of a party of 8 Spanish intelligence officers. Iraqi insurgents also killed two Japanese diplomats near Tikrit. On November 30, another ambush near Tikrit killed two South Korean electrical workers and wounded two more. A Colombian employee of Kellogg Brown & Root was killed and two were wounded in an ambush near Balad. Train Bombing in Southern Russia, December 5, 2003: A suicide bomb attack killed 42 persons and wounded 150 aboard a Russian commuter train in the south Russian town of Yessentuki. Russian officials suspected Chechen rebels; President Putin said the attack was meant to disrupt legislative elections. Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov denied any involvement. Suicide Bombing in Moscow, December 9, 2003: A female suicide bomber killed 5 other persons and wounded 14 outside Moscow’s National Hotel. She was said to be looking for the State Duma. Suicide Car Bombings in Iraq, December 15, 2003: Two days after the capture of Saddam Hussein, there were two suicide car bomb attacks on Iraqi police stations. One at Husainiyah killed 8 persons and wounded 20. The other, at Ameriyah, wounded 7 Iraqi police. Guards repelled a second veh

rookie Aug 9, 2004

Sorry for the long post, I ran out of space in the previous post. Do you see the turmoil in the sea? Look around this country. Are we not building up the siege walls all around us? Look to the where the dwindling resources are being spent. The wealth of this nation is evaporating. Could this be the beginning of Revelation Chapter 6?"When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see." Another horse, fiery red, went out, and it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword." Rev. 6:3-4."When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine." Rev. 6: 5-6In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Aug 11, 2004

do you mean in terms of the increasing serverty of the terrorist attacks being like the increasing pains of labor?

IRONMAN Aug 11, 2004

perhaps it could be but doesn't the white horse come first?

rookie Aug 11, 2004

Labor pains grow more frequent and with more intensity as the time approaches. Listen to the events that surround us. New businesses are being created to prevent terrorism. New businesses are flourishing in services providing counseling to those who are sinking into depression. Imagine the stress of working in the Financial buildings that have recently been in the news. Image men holding assault rifles as you pass through the doors of these buildings. Now imagine what it is like to live in Israel today. The world leaders are saying peace, peace, yet they are barricading themselves behind concrete barriers and body guards. We hear of wars and rumors of wars. In our own country, first it was Afganistan. Before the end of that conflict we were already being prepared for Iraq. While the war in Iraq was being waged, Iran, Syria, and North Korea were on the radar screen. What about all the other conflicts that are going on in the world at the same time? I believe the rider on the white horse has been given a crown, and he has been sent out to conquer. I see the fruits of the fourth seal around us too. And the cry of the martyrs may be comming soon. What season are we in?In ChristJeff

rookie Aug 13, 2004

Today's CNN POLL: Friday Aug. 13Would you vote for a gay politician?63% Yes37% NoThese times are evil. Is the evidence of the path that most Americans walk, is it in light or in darkness? In Christ or anti Christ? There is no middle ground. In ChristJeff

rookie Aug 17, 2004

The U.S. has been involved with undermining the government of Venezuela. They have provided monetary assistance through political action groups to overthrow the Chavez presidency. Here we see the out working of a more democratic movement. The democratic movement in Venezuela is controled by the poor. The poor control the wealth of the nation. President Chavez has invested large sums of money in educating the poor, and providing health care. The minority has sought through the use of a failed coup and now a California style recall election to overthrow the president. There was a recall election held this weekend and Chavez received 58% of the vote.This is a quote from Chavez,"The Venezuelan people have spoken and the people's voice is the voice of God!"Aplying Scripture to this thought, as we have debated about in other threads, is this not true? Is this not God's will?Jimmy Carter verified the election process that took place. Yet the American government has not recognized Chavez's victory. How does this action reconcile with our professed beliefs in God's will over the nations? In Christ Jeff

rookie Aug 17, 2004

Please excuse the flippant use of language of the author. He is a writer for the BBC. The content of this article may shed some light on the evidence of what the world hopes for.Dick Cheney, Hugo Chávez and Bill Clinton's Band Greg Palast, August 16, 2004 There's so much BS and baloney thrown around about Venezuela that I may be violating some rule of US journalism by providing some facts. Let's begin with this: 77% of Venezuela's farmland is owned by 3% of the population, the 'hacendados.'I met one of these farmlords in Caracas at an anti-Chavez protest march. Oddest demonstration I've ever seen: frosted blondes in high heels clutching designer bags, screeching, "Chavez - dic-ta-dor!" The plantation owner griped about the "socialismo" of Chavez, then jumped into his Jaguar convertible.That week, Chavez himself handed me a copy of the "socialist" manifesto that so rattled the man in the Jag. It was a new law passed by Venezuela's Congress which gave land to the landless. The Chavez law transferred only fields from the giant haciendas which had been left unused and abandoned.This land reform, by the way, was promoted to Venezuela in the 1960s by that Lefty radical, John F. Kennedy. Venezuela's dictator of the time agreed to hand out land, but forgot to give peasants title to their property.But Chavez won't forget, because the mirror reminds him. What the affable president sees in his reflection, beyond the ribbons of office, is a "negro e indio" -- a "Black and Indian" man, dark as a cola nut, same as the landless and, until now, the hopeless. For the first time in Venezuela's history, the 80% Black-Indian population elected a man with skin darker than the man in the Jaguar.So why, with a huge majority of the electorate behind him, twice in elections and today in a referendum, is Hugo Chavez in hot water with our democracy-promoting White House?Maybe it's the oil. Lots of it. Chavez sits atop a reserve of crude that rivals Iraq's. And it's not his presidency of Venezuela that drives the White House bananas, it was his presidency of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, OPEC. While in control of the OPEC secretariat, Chavez cut a deal with our maximum leader of the time, Bill Clinton, on the price of oil. It was a 'Goldilocks' plan. The price would not be too low, not too high; just right, kept between $20 and $30 a barrel.But Dick Cheney does not like Clinton nor Chavez nor their band. To him, the oil industry's (and Saudi Arabia's) freedom to set oil prices is as sacred as freedom of speech is to the ACLU. I got this info, by the way, from three top oil industry lobbyists.Why should Chavez worry about what Dick thinks? Because, said one of the oil men, the Veep in his bunker, not the pretzel-chewer in the White House, "runs energy policy in the United States."And what seems to have gotten our Veep's knickers in a twist is not the price of oil, but who keeps the loot from the current band-busting spurt in prices. Chavez had his Congress pass another oil law, the "Law of Hydrocarbons," which changes the split. Right now, the oil majors - like PhillipsConoco - keep 84% of the proceeds of the sale of Venezuela oil; the nation gets only 16%.Chavez wanted to double his Treasury's take to 30%. And for good reason. Landless, hungry peasants have, over decades, drifted into Caracas and other cities, building million-person ghettos of cardboard shacks and open sewers. Chavez promised to do something about that.And he did. "Chavez gives them bread and bricks," one Venezuelan TV reporter told me. The blonde TV newscaster, in the middle of a publicity shoot, said the words "pan y ladrillos" with disdain, making it clear that she never touched bricks and certainly never waited in a bread line.But to feed and house the darker folk in those bread and brick lines, Chavez would need funds, and the 16% slice of the oil pie wouldn't do it. So the President of Venezuela demanded 30%, leaving Big Oil only 70%. Suddenly, Bill Clinton's ally in Caracas became Mr. Cheney's -- and therefore, Mr. Bush's -- enemy.So began the Bush-Cheney campaign to "Floridate" the will of the Venezuela electorate. It didn't matter that Chavez had twice won election. Winning most of the votes, said a White House spokesman, did not make Chavez' government "legitimate." Hmmm. Secret contracts were awarded by our Homeland Security spooks to steal official Venezuela voter lists. Cash passed discreetly from the US taxpayer, via the so-called 'Endowment for Democracy,' to the Chavez-haters running today's "recall" election.A brilliant campaign of placing stories about Chavez' supposed unpopularity and "dictatorial" manner seized US news and op-ed pages, ranging from the San Francisco Chronicle to the New York Times.But some facts just can't be smothered in propaganda ink. While George Bush can appoint the government of Iraq and call it "sovereign," the government of Venezuela is appointed by its people. And the fact is that most people in this slum-choked land don't drive Jaguars or have their hair tinted in Miami. Most look in the mirror and see someone "negro e indio," as dark as their President Hugo.The official CIA handbook on Venezuela says that half the nation's farmers own only 1% of the land. They are the lucky ones, as more peasants owned nothing. That is, until their man Chavez took office. Even under Chavez, land redistribution remains more a promise than an accomplishment. But today, the landless and homeless voted their hopes, knowing that their man may not, against the armed axis of local oligarchs and Dick Cheney, succeed for them. But they are convinced he will never forget them.And that's a fact.What drives men along the path that they travel? Is it not security?In ChristJeff

Rahman Aug 17, 2004

Brother Jeff you posted;--- Jimmy Carter verified the election process that took place. Yet the American government has not recognized Chavez's victory. How does this action reconcile with our professed beliefs in God's will over the nations? ---To me it reconciles that thank God, the will of God is not predicated on what we men believe or not believe, discount or validate ... satan in his multiple attempts, and man in his usually singular attempts, both try to outwit the will of God, but it's so impossible, for our God can play the cosmic chess game with satan, and all of the men past, present and future, toward the outcome of the game that He already has checkmated, and still run the intire universe without even thinking about it ... i'd rather be a pawn on our God's side, than a king on satans ... Our God has it all under control, satan, his fallen commrades, and his demons already know this, which is why they all work so hard to keep mankind from this awareness ...It's man that seems to be the total fool in all this, thank God that were saved, and God forgive us that we don't tell others, whether they believe it or not.

rookie Aug 17, 2004

In addition to Brother Rahman's post:"Back to Jerusalem" by Paul Hattaway pg 57In the testimony of Brother Yun I found this thought. "But that is not the only training they have received. (Back to Jerusalem missionaries) The past fifty years of suffering, persecution, and torture of the house churches in China were all part of God's training for us. He has used the government for his own purposes, molding and shaping his children as he sees fit. This is why I correct Western Christians who tell me:"I have been praying for years that the Communist government in China will collapse, so Christians can live in freedom." This is not what we pray! We never pray against our government or call down curses on it. Instead, we have learned that God is in control of both our lives and the government we live under. Isaiah prophesied about Jesus, "the government will be on his shoulders" (Isa. 9:6). Instead of focusing our prayers against any political system, we pray that regardless of what happens to us, we will be pleasing to God.Don't pray for the persecution to stop! We shouldn't pray for a lighter load to carry, but a stronger back to endure! Then the world will see that God is with us, empowering us to live in a way that reflects his love and power. This is true freedom!"Brother Art Katz says basically the same thing. (paraphrase) Why would the Jews be jealous of the Christianity we have. God says that there will come a time when the Jews become jealous of our relationship with God.Do you see the difference in these brothers?In ChrisJeff

rookie Aug 25, 2004

From another post:Vice President Dick Cheney, whose oldest daughter is a lesbian, said Tuesday he believed that decisions about same-sex marriages should be left to the states, contending that "freedom means freedom for everyone." Despite his personal view, he added, President Bush is his boss, and Bush favors an amendment to the Constitution banning such marriages. "The president makes policy for the administration," Cheney said. His comments came in response to a question during an invitation-only town hall meeting in Davenport. Cheney's remarks were his first this year on the gay marriage issue while campaigning. Religious conservatives, a key part of the Republican coalition, strongly support a federal ban on same-sex marriage. But recent Senate debate on the issue showed that it is a divisive subject among GOP lawmakers. Cheney's view represents a rare break by him from the party's conservative base. "Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue that our family is very familiar with," Cheney said Tuesday. "With respect to the question of relationships, my general view is that freedom means freedom for everyone. People ... ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to.Jesus' promise to man, He will free us from the bondage of sin. Man preaches another kind of freedom. "Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us." Psalm 2:3What freedom do we seek?In ChristJeff

rookie Aug 30, 2004

I've started researching Nazism. Here is what occurred in a small town in Germany around 1933. The name of the town is Northeim. The information is taken from, The New Order, The Third Reich/Time-Life Books. "The nazification of Northeim did not take that long. By May 1933, one-fifth of the town's adults, 1200 people, had joined the party. Not everyone joined voluntarily or for motives of personal advancement. Some, such as Otto von Schulenberg, the county prefect, had little choice. The Nazi county leader, Walter Steineck, threw a swastika pin on Schenlenberg's desk and said, "Put that on! If you don't, you won't be prefect tomorrow." Others were pressured, less bluntly but just as effectively, by their own families. One resident remembered wives "who actually went out and bought a brown shirt and put their men into it." (page 34)(page 40) "Meanwhile, the process of nazification extended to Northeim's every nook. The railroad unions, civil servants' society, craft guilds, and shooting and sports clubs, as well as the organizations of doctors, dentists, and teachers, immediately became targets. Each was taken over by the Nazis or replaced by a parallel Nazi organization and then forced to dissolve. Surviving organizations all had the prefix "National Socialist" added to their names. Even the local Lutherans, confident that their support of the Nazis would bring rewards, found instead that the Nazis intended to take over the churches. The Nazis set out to win Lutheran elective offices and urged the church elders to join the German Christian Movement, a pro-Nazi infiltration group. Even the public library was nazified when 500 volumes of "worthless literary trash" were burned. The people in Northeim who were not converted or neutralized by nazification were usually subjected to terror. In April, a four-day boycott of the town's Jewish businesses was announced as retaliation against "international Jewry" for "slandering" Germany. The action notified astonished Northeimers that while the Nazis had soft-pedaled their anti-Semitism during the election campaigns, they had no intention of doing so now. Once the point was made, most of the town's 120 Jews submitted to their new role as second-class citizens. And signs appeared in non-Jewish stores that read, "Purely Christian Family Enterprise" and German Merchant." Later, the signs declared, "Jews not admitted." I imagine that these times will be repeated once again. What Scripture do these events bring to mind? In Christ Jeff

rookie Aug 31, 2004

Joseph Goebbels developed the science of propaganda to new heights during the reign of the Third Reich. This quote is taken from the same book, page 54."Although Hitler was the true genius of Nazi propaganda, he delegated day-to-day authority for its dissemination to the gifted disciple who liked to be called "Herr Doktor"--Paul Joseph Goebbels. An energetic little man who stood scarcely five feet tall and weighed just a bit more than 100 pounds, Goebbels had big eyes, a diabolical grin, and a talent for distortion, half-truths, and outright prevarication. For the benefit of future propagandists, Goebbels cynically summed up the essence of his craft; "Any lie, frequently repeated, will gradually gain acceptance."end of quoteDo you see the influence of satan in his life? Do you see any manifestations of this "craft" in the world leader today?Will not satan manifest himself again like that of the Nazis of 70 years ago? In ChristJeff

Rahman Aug 31, 2004

Rev.13[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.[2] And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.[3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.[4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?[5] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.[6] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.[7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.[8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[9] If any man have an ear, let him hear.- ANTIOCHUS EPIPAHANES- ADOLF HITLER- 666 (ANTI-CHRIST) ???

CJaKfOrEsT Sep 1, 2004

Rahman wrote:- ANTIOCHUS EPIPAHANES- ADOLF HITLER- 666 (ANTI-CHRIST) ??? Huh???

Rahman Sep 1, 2004

Sorry Brother Aaron, i just posted this in thought to Brother Jeff's post about Nazi "propaganda" and his subsequent questions ...Quote;Do you see the influence of satan in his life? Do you see any manifestations of this "craft" in the world leader today?Will not satan manifest himself again like that of the Nazis of 70 years ago? And i thought to myself yes satan will manifest himself at least one more (final) time, in another, far superior jew hating propagandist, and great orator of lies and blasphemies, namely the anti-christ ... In my research of history there has only been two other men who stand out in their extreme hatred of the jews, and their religion, on the par of the coming anti-christ, and that's....- ANTIOCHUS EPIPAHANES & ADOLF HITLER Both of this guys were strange charasmatic men, as most satanic, demon influenced/possessed instruments of power are ... Most of us know of Adolf ... here's some scoop on Antiochus (Daniel's forerunner of the Revelations anti-christ) ...Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Template of the Beasthttp://goodnewsandprophecy.org/footnote_antiochus.htmDan.7[7] After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.[8] I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. Dan.8[8] Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.[9] And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.[10] And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.[11] Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.[12] And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?[14] And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

rookie Sep 1, 2004

During the 1920"s and 30"s the common German people lived under the repression of the world because of WW1. During this time the people suffered from the depression that affected most of the world. These people were looking for a savior. Again listen to the words found on page 57 of the book I have been quoting from. "Encouraged by Hitler's tutelage and driven by the need to revive the fractious, anemic party organization in Berlin, Goebbels blossomed into a tireless and inventive propagandist. He developed eye-catching poster, published simple pamphlets with such titles as The Little ABCs for National Socialists, and started a Nazi weekly newspaper, Der Angriff (The Attack), that specialized in vicious caricatures of Jews and Marxists. He provoked brawls with communists and then propped up his own wounded and heavily bandaged Storm Troopers to show them off as martyrs at party rallies. He disrupted the premiere of the American made antiwar film All Quiet on the Western Front by releasing white mice and harmless snakes in the theater. He made a heroic myth of the sordid story of Horst Wessel, a young Storm Trooper who had been killed by a communist--the former suitor of Wessel's prostitute girlfriend. And he elevated a primitive marching song written by Wessel into the anthem of the Nazi movement. No propaganda was "too crude, too low, too brutal," Goebbels announced, as long as it was successful in getting attention or winning converts. "The people want to be bamboozled."In 1930, Hitler promoted Goebbels to party propaganda chief, a post the Fuhrer himself had been filling. While retaining the job as party leader of Berlin, Goebbels took a prominent role in subsequent Nazi election campaigns, nurturing the myth of Hitler as a messianic redeemerwho would save Germany from the Jews and Marxists. Goebbels eventually expressed this myth in terms of an ear-catching trinity: ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer, one people, one nation, one leader."end of quoteMany believe that Nazism and Facism are movements of the past. I believe that we are witnessing the seeds of these movements again. Remember Goebbels said the people wanted to be bamboozled. What events will lead the sea of humanity back to looking for a savior?In ChristJeff

Rahman Sep 1, 2004

Quote;In 1930, Hitler promoted Goebbels to party propaganda chief, a post the Fuhrer himself had been filling. While retaining the job as party leader of Berlin, Goebbels took a prominent role in subsequent Nazi election campaigns, nurturing the myth of Hitler as a messianic redeemerHitler, as will anti-christ had his own personal false prophet, Goebbels ... Interesting that as with Hitler anti-christ will come onto the world scene first, then will later aquire his propaganda minister/false prophet ...Rev.16 [13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.Rev.19[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.Quote;What events will lead the sea of humanity back to looking for a savior?i believe it will be the dire events that will escalate even further toward WWIII, and that just prior, or even a little space after it's onset, the globe will be ripe for the man with the answer, and anti-christ will initially have that answer to peace, and because of it the world will hail him as messiah, and prince of peace ... An American loss in Iraq could very well be the precursor to such a downward spiral ...

rookie Sep 2, 2004

Brother Rahman wrote:i believe it will be the dire events that will escalate even further toward WWIII, and that just prior, or even a little space after it's onset, the globe will be ripe for the man with the answer, and anti-christ will initially have that answer to peace, and because of it the world will hail him as messiah, and prince of peace ... An American loss in Iraq could very well be the precursor to such a downward spiral ...Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 will define the world at the beginning of this time. All the security that men seek will disappear. Money, pension, insurance, armies, and governments will be emptied of the security men have placed their faith in. And then the antichrist will be revealed. Look at the systems surrounding us. What do you see? Can our government keep spending 500 billion more than we have? Can this country keep spending 500 billion more than we earn? Each year the debt increases. This year it will be 1 trillion. What will next year bring? The monetary system we have is basically an illusion. It is backed by the faith men place in paper with ink on it. Imagine the condition of other countries around the world. Most of us have no idea of what it means to live in third world poverty. What will happen when it is all gone. Will we like the germans of the 1930's take the mark of the beast?In ChristJeff

rookie Sep 3, 2004

This is an illustration of the ways of men who use the same tactics of 70 years ago. There is no value in compromising the truth. Man's pragmatic ways defies God.CNN Article;Recalling that the Soviets once occupied part of Austria in the aftermath of World War II, Schwarzenegger told the convention on Tuesday: "I saw tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes."No way, historians say, challenging Schwarzenegger's knowledge of postwar history -- if not his enduring popularity among Austrians who admire him for rising from a penniless immigrant to the highest official in America's most populous state."It's a fact -- as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised, historian Stefan Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.Schwarzenegger, now a naturalized U.S. citizen, was born on July 30, 1947, when Styria and the neighboring province of Carinthia belonged to the British zone. At the time, postwar Austria was occupied by the four wartime allies, which also included the United States, the Soviet Union and France.The Soviets already had left Styria in July 1945, less than three months after the end of the war, Karner noted."Let me tell you this: As a boy, I lived for many years across the street from where the Russians were based in Vienna -- and honestly, I never saw a Russian tank there," retiree Franz Nitsch said Friday. "He said it all on purpose -- and that's bad."In his convention address, Schwarzenegger also said: "As a kid, I saw the Socialist country that Austria became after the Soviets left" in 1955 and Austria regained its independence.But Martin Polaschek, a law history scholar and vice rector of Graz University, told Kurier that Austria was governed by coalition governments, including the conservative People's Party and the Social Democratic Party. Between 1945 and 1970, all the nation's chancellors were conservatives -- not Socialists.What's more, when Schwarzenegger left in 1968, Austria was run by a conservative government headed by People's Party Chancellor Josef Klaus, a staunch Roman Catholic and a sharp critic of both the Socialists as well as the Communists ruling in countries across the Iron Curtain.Schwarzenegger "confuses a free country with a Socialist one," said Polaschek, referring to East European Communist officials' routine descriptions of their countries as Socialist.Polaschek saw the moderate Republican governor's recollections at the convention as a tactical move. Schwarzenegger, he said, was "using the old Communist enemy image for Bush's election campaign.""He did not speak as a historian, after all, but as a politician," Polaschek said.Norbert Darabos, a ranking official of Austria's opposition Social Democratic Party, sharply criticized Schwarzenegger's "disdain for his former homeland.""The Terminator is constructing a rather bizarre Austria image," he said.But many ordinary Austrians seemed to be in a forgiving mood Friday over the gaffes."Maybe he has a wrong recollection -- it's so many years since he left," said Wilma Fadrany, 32, a Vienna waitress."There must be political reasons for such comments," she said. "You've got to tell the (convention delegates) what they want to hear in order to win them over. Politicians always talk the way it fits into their agenda."end of articleThe seeds of Satan are being sowed. Only those who have a love for the truth will overcome.In ChristJeff

rookie Sep 15, 2004

Here is a second article on the Govenor of California:"SACRAMENTO – Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed the first major gay rights legislation to reach his desk yesterday when he approved a bill that would require insurance companies to offer coverage to registered domestic partners. The governor's office announced his approval late yesterday without any fanfare or even a signing message explaining his decision. AB 2208, sponsored by Assemblywoman Christine Kehoe, D-San Diego, would require companies that offer health, life, homeowners and auto insurance to offer policies that cover domestic partners in the same way they cover spouses. Current law requires insurers to offer domestic partners coverage equivalent to a dependent, rather than a spouse. Gay rights advocates say the bill is a technical fix needed to pave the way for California's domestic partnership law, which takes effect next year. The law gives same-sex registered domestic partners a variety of rights and responsibilities now available only to married couples."A warning comes to mind, "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." Matthew 7:18-20We as Christians must strive to discern all circumstances through the use of Scripture. "But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Hebrews 5:14How many are willing to compromise the Truth? Only the love of the truth will enable one to overcome the deception that is to come.In ChristJeff

rookie Sep 17, 2004

We have an interesting discussion going on about the works of Satan and you we should pray for the kings of this earth. See 1 Timothy 2:1-4In ChristJeff

rookie Oct 11, 2004

While watching the news on tv I have noticed what seems to be a greater magnitude of tv programing promoting sex in one way or another.Comercial upon comercial displaying a show called Desperate Housewives is saturating the advertisements. The leaders of the nation of Israel were condemned by the Lord through Jeremiah."because they have done disgraceful things in Israel, have committed adultery with their neighbors' wives, and have spoken lying words in My name, which I have not commanded them. Indeed I know, and am a witness, says the Lord." Jeremiah 29:23"Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem; they commit adultery and walk in lies; they also strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no turns back from his wickedness. all of them are like Sodom to Me, and her inhabitants like Gomorrah." Jer. 23:14The powers that be are definitely strengthening the hands of the evil doers.In ChristJeff

sermonindex Oct 12, 2004

I only made it to page 6, before I had to tell you both what an invigorating discussion you both are having and respectfully ask if I may join you in this folder?so much to say, but as you say Jeff,out of time,Neil

rookie Oct 12, 2004

Br. Neil,Looking forward to your fellowship in these thoughts.The following articles covers one of the influences that our American culture has exported to other continents. It is a long article but it has much value. GANGS WITHOUT BORDERS CONFOUND THE LAWBY GINGER THOMPSON, N.Y. TIMES NEWS SERVICESan Pedro Sula, Honduras--- Christian Antunez chokes back a scream as the nurse sticks a needle above his left eyebrow."Ay mama!" he shouts, "It really hurts." "Don't move," the nurse tells him, sticking him again and again with anesthesia. He pleads for a break. At least four other men, all covered with tattos, are taking needles around him, on their arms and legs, backs and chests. The whining rises from the chairs. One has a tatoo on his scalp. Another has one over his top lip. Yet another on his neck. Antunez, 22, has them everywhere. The men have all come to this makeshift clinic in a neighborhood ravaged by street violence for a desperate and disfiguring kind of healing; to have their gang tatoos removed.to be continued.In ChristJeff

rookie Oct 12, 2004

continued:"Society thinks we are monsters," Antunez said. "The police want us dead. That's why we do this. If we do not take off these tatoos, we will never be able to live in peace." The pain, he said, seems a small price for a new life. 'I dream of being clean, even if it means being scarred."They are gang members, known here as "maras," after a species of swarming ants. Indeed, over the last decade, gangs have spread like a scourge across Central America, Mexico and the United States, setting off a catastrophic crime wave that has turned dirt-poor neighborhoods into combat zones and an equally virulent crackdown that has left thousands of gang members dead, in hiding, in jail or heading to the United States.The authorities estimate there are 70,000 to 100,000 gang members across Central America and Mexico. In the last decade, gangs have killed thousands of people, sowing new fear in a region still struggling to overcome civil wars that ended just a decade ago. Gangs have replaced guerrilas as public enemy No. 1. MANO DURA RULESThe president of Honduras and El Savador have called the gangs as big a threat to national security as terroism is to the United States. They have revived old counterinsurgency strategies and adopted zero-tolerance laws known as Mano Dura, which loosely translates as "firm hand, " that bypass basic rules of due process and allow them to send young men to prison for nothing more than a gang tatoo. Instead of offering reassurance, official campaigns inflame public fear. and in the last year, human rights investigators have begun to report alarming increases in the numbers of young men killed by the police and vigilantes. No one denies that gang violence requires a tough response. No one-not even the nurese who remove his tatoos- feels sympathy for men with brutal histories, like Antunez. But many human rights advocates and community leaders worry that the aggressive measures governments are taking against gangs have not solved the problem as much as they have spread it. Thousands of gang members are fleeing north, moving with and preying on the waves of illegal migrants who travel to the United States, which is taking aggresive measures of its own and deporting thousands of gang members on immigration violations. The effect is to churn the gangs throughtout the region. As gang members move, the gang culture moves with them. Police departments across the United States call the gangs a top crime problem. In January, some 72 departments nation wide met to discuss the issue in Los Angeles. Another gang summit meeting by law enforcement authorities will be held in Washington on Thursday. In Guatemala, the authorities say gun violence will kill 1000 more people this year, compared with two years ago. Gangs, they say, will commit 80 percent of those killings. The Mexican state of Chiapas, which shares a lawless border with Guatemala, has become another mara hunting ground. Gangs strike in parks and bus stations. Over the last year, gang members reportedly killed more than 70 migrants stowed away on northbound freight trains. In a rare display of solidarity last year, the governments of Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, Panama, and Mexico signed an agreement to begin exploring ways to collaborate in the fight against gangs. They stopped short of adopting measures as tough as those in Honduras and El Salvador. But in countries crippled by official corruption and impunity, the crackdowns have weakened the rule of law as much as they have stemmed the rise in crime.Prisons are filled way beyond capacity with young men waithing months before they are formally charged. Overcrowded cellblocks have turned into death traps, with hundreds of gang members killed in suspicious riots and fires. Some gang members, picked up by the police, never make it to jail. Human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and the Honduras National Commision for Human Rights, have reported incidents of gang memebers being kidnapped, tortured and killed by the same kinds of secret security forces responsible for the disappearance of hundreds of suspected leftists during the civil war years. Commissioner Ramon Custodio has described the killings as a "Slow social cleansing," often involving youths with no criminal records.to be continued.In ChristJeff

rookie Oct 13, 2004

continued:Reports by Amnesty International and the State Department have echoed similiar warnings."It seems to me that this country is losing, in great measures, the democratic advances that have cost us so much," said Bertha Oliva, director of the Committee for the Relatives of the Disappeared, formed at the height of the Cold War. "In the 1980's, this country said it was OK to dill off its political enemies because they were anti-social. We say the same today about gang members." The two largest gangs, the Mara Salvatrucha and the Mara 18, began on the streets of Los Angeles. The Salvatruchas gang was started by the children of refugees from U.S. -sponsored civil wars in Central America of the 1980's. Young people started the gangs as support networks, even social clubs.Mara 18 was started by Mexican immigrants in the 1970's. Fist fights with rival groups turned to gunfights. Gunfights led to declarations of war. Then in the crackdown by U.S immigration officials, tens of thousands of gang members were sent back to their home countries. At the peak of the program in the mid-1990's, some 40,000 criminal illegal immigrants were sent back each year. Suddenly, one of the poorest corners of the world, which struggles to meet its people's basic needs, was burdened by a superpower's crime plague.Entire neighborhoods were plundered by violent turf wars waged by volatile young men armed with machetes and homemade pipe guns, called chimbas. Homicide rates, especially among men under 30, soared. Law-abiding citizens lived like prisoners in their own homes. Armies and law enforcement agencies that had been scaled down for what was supposed to be a new era of peace were forced to build back up. RETURNING TO HAUNT U.S.Now, with the extraordinary measures by Central American governments driving them away, the rampage had come full circle. The sheer force of illegal immigration has made the Mara Salvatruchas and Mara 18 two of the fastest growing gangs in the United States.They are driving crime in cities like Los Angeles, Chicago and the suburbs around Washington, police officials say. They have expanded from their big city bases to make violent debuts in places like Durham NC, Omaha NE, and Nassau County NY. A national study by Northeastern University found that while overall crime dropped by more than 20 percent from 1999 to 2002, gang homicides increased by more than 50 percent. Some of the most shocking violence has played out in the suburbs around Washington, where members of Mara Salvatrucha have been blamed for hacking the hands of a 16-year old rival with a machete, and stabbing a pregnant 17-year old who was an informant in murder investigations. Metropolitan Los Angeles, with a population almost equal to that of Honduras, remains the world capital of street gangs., with an estimated 700 different cliques and more than 110,000 gang members. City and county police officials sya half of all homicides they are gang related. Chief William J. Bratton of the Los Angeles Police Department has described gang members as "domestic terrorists," who have received little attention from a society preoccupied with al-Qaida since September 11. In speeches across the country, he has urged other police departments to make gangs their top law enforcement priority and demand increased federal support......."People deserve protection," he added. "And I believe gang members are terrorizing our communities." end of article.In Isaiah 30:28, "His breath is like an overflowing stream, which reaches up to the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of futility; and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people causing them to err." This judgement was called on the nations of old, yet do you see His bridle manifesting itself in this generation? There is no protection outside of God.In ChristJeff

sermonindex Oct 13, 2004

Dear Lord, please Jesus, raise up missionaries to go into the ranks of these young men. Father let us, the body of believers become their family. Lord, I pray against the spirit that takes young boys away from their earthly fathers. Jesus, please raise up men who will tell them that You are their Father and their Brother, their Alpha and their Omega. Lord You are our Everything. On earth as it is in Heaven. amenWe love You Jesus

rookie Oct 15, 2004

During the last debate one man acused the other of foolishness in regards to raising the debt ceiling of our government. Today in the paper we hear about this topic."Government hits debt ceiling, needs to borrow, official says"NY TimesLess than a day after President Bush implied that Sen. Kerry lacked "fiscal sanity," the Bush administration said on Thursday that the federal government had hit the debt ceiling set by Congress and would have to borrow from the civil service retirement system until after the election. Federal operations are unlikely to be affected because Congress is certain to raise the debt limit in a lameduck session in November....Since Bush took office in January 2001, the federal debt has increased about 40 percent, or 2.1 trillion. Congress has raised the debt ceiling three times in three years., raising it most recently by 948 billion in May 2003.....end of storyYesterday the debt taken on by the U.S. in terms of trade deficits with the world last month increased by 54 billion. 18 billion dollars of last months business was attributed to trading with China. We consumed 18 billion more than we sold China. We bought televisions, toys, and cell phones. What does that say about we as a people?We argue about how one man or another is going to make a difference. Both men running for office plan to do the same thing no matter whose plan gets implemented. The U.S. is bankrupt finanicially because the nation is bankrupt spiritually. Only Jesus can protect the poor in spirit from the foolishness of men. In ChristJeff

Rahman Oct 15, 2004

Hmmmm brother Jeff ... Wonder how long it'll be before the Church loses it's tax exemption behind desperately needed revenue? ... Wall daubers beware!These are exciting times?

rookie Oct 25, 2004

I've been reading in Ezekiel this week. The nation of Israel was condemned for having adulterous affairs with it's neighbors. The list of nations included Egypt "your very fleshly neighbor," the Phillistines, the Assyrians, and the "land of the trader, Chaldea." Ezekiel 16. Then God gives a parable speaking of the trust that Israel has in other nations. God declares that these nations will not save Israel. God speaks of a time where the captivity of israel will go to Babylon. "He cropped off its topmost young twig and carried it to a land of trade; He set it in a city of merchants." Ezekiel 17:4We all know that there is a future Babylon which will be destroyed by God. Listen to the judgement of the future."And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore; merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. Revelations 18:11-13Yesterday I saw a report on hospitals in the United States. They are producing live television programs of surgeries. The thought is to promote the hospital's expertise in surgery. They are advertising. Then this news event covered an event that spoke of a man in need of a kidney. He advertised his need on the internet. A man responded to the need and "donated" his kidney. He recieved 5000 dollars to cover his expenses. Then it was reported that this man had a warrant out for his arrest. He owed 8000 dollars in back child support. The experts presented to its audience the ethical questions of selling body parts for money. I believe this is the ultimate manifestation of mechandizing. Meditate on where we are today in the idol worship of materialism.These days are evil.In ChristJeff

rookie Oct 25, 2004

A further thought on the mechants that are accused of selling the bodies and souls of men. The Scriptures say it will come to pass. There is nothing that will stop it. Now the question that I have, is what does it mean when the Scriptures speak of the merchants selling the bodies and souls of men?I of course can't begin to fathom the full manifestation of this behavior, yet one is called to look for the signs of the season. I had another thought this morning. What if the manifestation covers the products of stem cell research? Just another brick in the wall. In ChristJeff

rookie Oct 30, 2004

Please note that I am not adding this to disparage the man, but to bring light to the ways of men. What is the means by which men seek to accomplish their dreams?"By Russ BakerTwo years before 9/11, candidate Bush was already talking privately about attacking Iraq, according to his former ghost writerHouston: Two years before the September 11 attacks, presidential candidate George W. Bush was already talking privately about the political benefits of attacking Iraq, according to his former ghost writer, who held many conversations with then-Texas Governor Bush in preparation for a planned autobiography. “He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999,” said author and journalist Mickey Herskowitz. “It was on his mind. He said to me: ‘One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.’ And he said, ‘My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.’ He said, ‘If I have a chance to invade….if I had that much capital, I’m not going to waste it. I’m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I’m going to have a successful presidency.” Herskowitz said that Bush expressed frustration at a lifetime as an underachiever in the shadow of an accomplished father. In aggressive military action, he saw the opportunity to emerge from his father’s shadow. The moment, Herskowitz said, came in the wake of the September 11 attacks. “Suddenly, he’s at 91 percent in the polls, and he’d barely crawled out of the bunker.” That President Bush and his advisers had Iraq on their minds long before weapons inspectors had finished their work – and long before alleged Iraqi ties with terrorists became a central rationale for war – has been raised elsewhere, including in a book based on recollections of former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill. However, Herskowitz was in a unique position to hear Bush’s unguarded and unfiltered views on Iraq, war and other matters – well before he became president. In 1999, Herskowitz struck a deal with the campaign of George W. Bush about a ghost-written autobiography, which was ultimately titled A Charge to Keep : My Journey to the White House, and he and Bush signed a contract in which the two would split the proceeds. The publisher was William Morrow. Herskowitz was given unimpeded access to Bush, and the two met approximately 20 times so Bush could share his thoughts. Herskowitz began working on the book in May, 1999, and says that within two months he had completed and submitted some 10 chapters, with a remaining 4-6 chapters still on his computer. Herskowitz was replaced as Bush’s ghostwriter after Bush’s handlers concluded that the candidate’s views and life experiences were not being cast in a sufficiently positive light. According to Herskowitz, who has authored more than 30 books, many of them jointly written autobiographies of famous Americans in politics, sports and media (including that of Reagan adviser Michael Deaver), Bush and his advisers were sold on the idea that it was difficult for a president to accomplish an electoral agenda without the record-high approval numbers that accompany successful if modest wars. The revelations on Bush’s attitude toward Iraq emerged recently during two taped interviews of Herskowitz, which included a discussion of a variety of matters, including his continued closeness with the Bush family, indicated by his subsequent selection to pen an authorized biography of Bush’s grandfather, written and published last year with the assistance and blessing of the Bush family. Herskowitz also revealed the following: -In 2003, Bush’s father indicated to him that he disagreed with his son’s invasion of Iraq. -Bush admitted that he failed to fulfill his Vietnam-era domestic National Guard service obligation, but claimed that he had been “excused.” -Bush revealed that after he left his Texas National Guard unit in 1972 under murky circumstances, he never piloted a plane again. That casts doubt on the carefully-choreographed moment of Bush emerging in pilot’s garb from a jet on the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln in 2003 to celebrate “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq. The image, instantly telegraphed around the globe, and subsequent hazy White House statements about his capacity in the cockpit, created the impression that a heroic Bush had played a role in landing the craft. -Bush described his own business ventures as “floundering” before campaign officials insisted on recasting them in a positive light. Throughout the interviews for this article and in subsequent conversations, Herskowitz indicated he was conflicted over revealing information provided by a family with which he has longtime connections, and by how his candor could comport with the undefined operating principles of the as-told-to genre. Well after the interviews—in which he expressed consternation that Bush’s true views, experience and basic essence had eluded the American people —Herskowitz communicated growing concern about the consequences for himself of the publication of his remarks, and said that he had been under the impression he would not be quoted by name. However, when conversations began, it was made clear to him that the material was intended for publication and attribution. A tape recorder was present and visible at all times. Several people who know Herskowitz well addressed his character and the veracity of his recollections. “I don’t know anybody that’s ever said a bad word about Mickey,” said Barry Silverman, a well-known Houston executive and civic figure who worked with him on another book project. An informal survey of Texas journalists turned up uniform confidence that Herskowitz’s account as contained in this article could be considered accurate. One noted Texas journalist who spoke with Herskowitz about the book in 1999 recalls how the author mentioned to him at the time that Bush had revealed things the campaign found embarrassing and did not want in print. He requested anonymity because of the political climate in the state. “I can’t go near this,” he said. According to Herskowitz, George W. Bush’s beliefs on Iraq were based in part on a notion dating back to the Reagan White House – ascribed in part to now-vice president Dick Cheney, Chairman of the House Republican Policy Committee under Reagan. “Start a small war. Pick a country where there is justification you can jump on, go ahead and invade.” Bush’s circle of pre-election advisers had a fixation on the political capital that British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher collected from the Falklands War. Said Herskowitz: “They were just absolutely blown away, just enthralled by the scenes of the troops coming back, of the boats, people throwing flowers at [Thatcher] and her getting these standing ovations in Parliament and making these magnificent speeches.” Republicans, Herskowitz said, felt that Jimmy Carter’s political downfall could be attributed largely to his failure to wage a war. He noted that President Reagan and President Bush’s father himself had (besides the narrowly-focused Gulf War I) successfully waged limited wars against tiny opponents – Grenada and Panama – and gained politically. But there were successful small wars, and then there were quagmires, and apparently George H.W. Bush and his son did not see eye to eye. “I know [Bush senior] would not admit this now, but he was opposed to it. I asked him if he had talked to W about invading Iraq. “He said, ‘No I haven’t, and I won’t, but Brent [Scowcroft] has.’ Brent would not have talked to him without the old man’s okaying it.” Scowcroft, national security adviser in the elder Bush’s administration, penned a highly publicized warning to George W. Bush about the perils of an invasion. Herskowitz’s revelations are not the sole indicator of Bush’s pre-election thinking on Iraq. In December 1999, some six months after his talks with Herskowitz, Bush surprised veteran political chroniclers, including the Boston Globe’s David Nyhan, with his blunt pronouncements about Saddam at a six-way New Hampshire primary event that got little notice: “It was a gaffe-free evening for the rookie front-runner, till he was asked about Saddam’s weapons stash,” wrote Nyhan. ‘I’d take ‘em out,’ [Bush] grinned cavalierly, ‘take out the weapons of mass destruction…I’m surprised he’s still there,” said Bush of the despot who remains in power after losing the Gulf War to Bush Jr.’s father…It remains to be seen if that offhand declaration of war was just Texas talk, a sort of locker room braggadocio, or whether it was Bush’s first big clinker. ” The notion that President Bush held unrealistic or naïve views about the consequences of war was further advanced recently by a Bush supporter, the evangelist Pat Robertson, who revealed that Bush had told him the Iraq invasion would yield no casualties. In addition, in recent days, high-ranking US military officials have complained that the White House did not provide them with adequate resources for the task at hand. Herskowitz considers himself a friend of the Bush family, and has been a guest at the family vacation home in Kennebunkport. In the late 1960s, Herskowitz, a longtime Houston Chronicle sports columnist designated President Bush’s father, then-Congressman George HW Bush, to replace him as a guest columnist, and the two have remained close since then. (Herskowitz was suspended briefly in April without pay for reusing material from one of his own columns, about legendary UCLA basketball coach John Wooden.) In 1999, when Herskowitz turned in his chapters for Charge to Keep, Bush’s staff expressed displeasure —often over Herskowitz’s use of language provided by Bush himself. In a chapter on the oil business, Herskowitz included Bush’s own words to describe the Texan’s unprofitable business ventures, writing: “the companies were floundering”. “I got a call from one of the campaign lawyers, he was kind of angry, and he said, ‘You’ve got some wrong information.’ I didn’t bother to say, ‘Well you know where it came from.’ [The lawyer] said, ‘We do not consider that the governor struggled or floundered in the oil business. We consider him a successful oilman who started up at least two new businesses.’ ” In the end, campaign officials decided not to go with Herskowitz’s account, and, moreover, demanded everything back. “The lawyer called me and said, ‘Delete it. Shred it. Just do it.’ ” “They took it and [communications director] Karen [Hughes] rewrote it,” he said. A campaign official arrived at his home at seven a.m. on a Monday morning and took his notes and computer files. However, Herskowitz, who is known for his memory of anecdotes from his long history in journalism and book publishing, says he is confident about his recollections. According to Herskowitz, Bush was reluctant to discuss his time in the Texas Air National Guard – and inconsistent when he did so. Bush, he said, provided conflicting explanations of how he came to bypass a waiting list and obtain a coveted Guard slot as a domestic alternative to being sent to Vietnam. Herskowitz also said that Bush told him that after transferring from his Texas Guard unit two-thirds through his six-year military obligation to work on an Alabama political campaign, he did not attend any Alabama National Guard drills at all, because he was “excused.” This directly contradicts his public statements that he participated in obligatory training with the Alabama National Guard. Bush’s claim to have fulfilled his military duty has been subject to intense scrutiny; he has insisted in the past that he did show up for monthly drills in Alabama – though commanding officers say they never saw him, and no Guardsmen have come forward to accept substantial “rewards” for anyone who can claim to have seen Bush on base. Herskowitz said he asked Bush if he ever flew a plane again after leaving the Texas Air National Guard in 1972 – which was two years prior to his contractual obligation to fly jets was due to expire. He said Bush told him he never flew any plane – military or civilian – again. That would contradict published accounts in which Bush talks about his days in 1973 working with inner-city children, when he claimed to have taken some of the children up in a plane. In 2002, three years after he had been pulled off the George W. Bush biography, Herskowitz was asked by Bush’s father to write a book about the current president’s grandfather, Prescott Bush, after getting a message that the senior Bush wanted to see him. “Former President Bush just handed it to me. We were sitting there one day, and I was visiting him there in his office…He said, ‘I wish somebody would do a book about my dad.’ ” “He said to me, ‘I know this has been a disappointing time for you, but it’s amazing how many times something good will come out of it.’ I passed it on to my agent, he jumped all over it. I asked [Bush senior], ‘Would you support it and would you give me access to the rest of family?’ He said yes.” That book, Duty, Honor, Country: The Life and Legacy of Prescott Bush, was published in 2003 by Routledge. If anything, the book has been criticized for its over-reliance on the Bush family’s perspective and rosy interpretation of events. Herskowitz himself is considered the ultimate “as-told-to” author, lending credibility to his account of what George W. Bush told him. Herskowitz’s other books run the gamut of public figures, and include the memoirs of Reagan aide Deaver, former Texas Governor and Nixon Treasury Secretary John Connally, newsman Dan Rather, astronaut Walter Cunningham, and baseball greats Mickey Mantle and Nolan Ryan. After Herskowitz was pulled from the Bush book project, the biographer learned that a scenario was being prepared to explain his departure. “I got a phone call from someone in the Bush campaign, confidentially, saying ‘Watch your back.’ ” Reporters covering Bush say that when they inquired as to why Herskowitz was no longer on the project, Hughes intimated that Herskowitz had personal habits that interfered with his writing – a claim Herskowitz said is unfounded. Later, the campaign put out the word that Herskowitz had been removed for missing a deadline. Hughes subsequently finished the book herself – it received largely critical reviews for its self-serving qualities and lack of spontaneity or introspection. So, said Herskowitz, the best material was left on the cutting room floor, including Bush’s true feelings. “He told me that as a leader, you can never admit to a mistake,” Herskowitz said. “That was one of the keys to being a leader.” Research support for this article was provided by the Investigative Fund of The Nation Institute. Russ Baker is an award-winning independent journalist who has been published in The New York Times, The Nation, Washington Post, The Telegraph (UK), Sydney Morning-Herald, and Der Spiegel, among many others. What do men lust after in this world?In ChristJeff

crsschk Oct 30, 2004

Russ Baker is an award-winning independent journalist who has been published in The New York Times, The Nation, Washington Post, The Telegraph (UK), Sydney Morning-Herald, and Der Spiegel, among many others. And also extremely biased. (A stop by his site would only confirm that, but guard your eyes if you are not fond of some of the magazine's he links there.)I know that is part of the article and not your comment, but still, the timing of this cast's it in the ever growing rhetoric and agenda pile regardless if there is any truth to it or not. This whole process stinks the way it is conducted anymore, like one long playground argument without any real substance. Shouldn't really surprise anyone I guess.Here is the most balanced coverage I have seen yet: From The Hands Of The PeopleIt takes awhile to load, it must be getting a lot of traffic, but it's worth the wait.

rookie Oct 31, 2004

Br. Mike wrote:but still, the timing of this cast's it in the ever growing rhetoric and agenda pile regardless if there is any truth to it or not. This whole process stinks the way it is conducted anymore, like one long playground argument without any real substance. Shouldn't really surprise anyone I guess.Your point is well taken. Part of this thread has to do with the promotion of propaganda. What is the truth? I once shared in your feelings, (this whole process stinks). That was a time when I couldn't understand all the injustice of this world. Then the doctrine of total depravity took hold of me. That revelation set me free from the boiling seas of humanity. I am sorry for adding to the fire. But another brother spent time stiring the boiling pot until the pot boiled over. Since then, I seek to drive people to the pilgrimage that the writer of Psalm 119 speaks of.18 \tOpen my eyes, that I may see\tWondrous things from Your law. 19 \tI am a stranger in the earth;\tDo not hide Your commandments from me. 45 \tAnd I will walk at liberty,\tFor I seek Your precepts. 46 \tI will speak of Your testimonies also before kings,\tAnd will not be ashamed. 53 \tIndignation has taken hold of me\tBecause of the wicked, who forsake Your law. 54 \tYour statutes have been my songs\tIn the house of my pilgrimage. Our souls will always be troubled by the world, dwell in His house.God BlessJeff

crsschk Oct 31, 2004

Hey Jeff,Definitely following your train of thought throughout this thread, which has grown to include a plethora of food to chew on, not that it all tastes good ;-) Partially my response is/was related to those who may have come along late in the process here.But more so it really is along the same lines. What is truth? once shared in your feelings, (this whole process stinks). That was a time when I couldn't understand all the injustice of this world. Then the doctrine of total depravity took hold of me. That revelation set me free from the boiling seas of humanity. I am sorry for adding to the fire. But another brother spent time stiring the boiling pot until the pot boiled over. Since then, I seek to drive people to the pilgrimage that the writer of Psalm 119 speaks of.Again, certainly understand what is back of all this and am neither surprised nor overtly frustrated, so no, I don't see this as adding to the fire so to speak. I guess if anything that is frustrating is that a large portion of the church has let others do their thinking for them. The sense of going with the flow without questioning the logic, ramifications and motivation behind what is being said from all sides, sweeping under the rug or hurrying past issues that make us uncomfortable and thus burying it in a mountain of rhetoric.But if this is the point that is being made, namely as you stated, to drive people to dwell in The House of The Lord where the only true help is, then the point is well taken. On the other hand, this article for all it's talk of being honest only leaves one with an impression of it being sincere on the surface, much like everything else being bandied about and sadly that is where most people will stop, even Christians.No sense in getting all bent out of shape over what we should come to expect in this area and yet we do have to deal with it. Was in the process of filling out my absentee ballot when this came up and even at the local level sorting through the chaff is ridiculous. The cleverness of introverted word-smithing to make propositions sound one way while the meaning is opposite or co-joined to something previous or yet future or dosen't even address the root issue at all.(A good case in point would be the gambling props out here).Much more could be said. Propaganda run amok.Here is another perspective:Why Voting for a Third Party Candidate is NOT Throwing Your Vote Away"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion." Psa 2:1-6

rookie Oct 31, 2004

Br. Mike wrote:I guess if anything that is frustrating is that a large portion of the church has let others do their thinking for them. The sense of going with the flow without questioning the logic, ramifications and motivation behind what is being said from all sides, sweeping under the rug or hurrying past issues that make us uncomfortable and thus burying it in a mountain of rhetoric.We have all been influenced by the rhetoric surrounding us. This precept started when the serpent approached Eve. Look at the result of that exchange of views. We too are like Eve or Adam. One was deceived the other just went along for the ride. Only the love of the truth will overcome the deception of our time. God BlessIn ChristJeff

Rahman Nov 3, 2004

Bro. Jeff,Did i ever supply you this link before ... i can't remember ...THE NEO-CONShttp://shockingelk.com/text/neoconservative/And i think this may interest you also ...T.R. Reid: Europe, The New Superpowerhttp://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?todayDate=11/02/2004God's Will is Done ... Pres. Bush Remains America's Leader...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3595&forum=35

rookie Nov 4, 2004

Thankyou Br. Rahman,I will check these sites that you have furnished. In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 5, 2004

Daniel 2"40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. 41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."This prophesy reminds me of the time we are in. Look to the divisiveness within our own nation. Seemingly, things are looking good for the prospect of overturning the slide into depravity. But listen to this article."REPUBLICAN SENATOR CAUTIONS BUSH ABOUT NOMINATIONS FOR SUPREME COURTWhen Senator Arlen Specter, R-PA, faced the toughtest primary race of hsi political career, President Bush came to his rescue, campaigning with Specter at every turn. But when both men were re-elected this week, Specter promptly cautioned the president against nominating Supreme Court justices who would overturn the 1973 ruling legalizing abortion. On Thursday, as outraged conservatives tried to block Specter's rise to the chairmanship of the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Pennsylvania senator issued a statement clarifying his remarks. "I did not warn the president about anything," and "I have never and would never apply any litmus test on the abortion issue," he said.The controversy suggests that, despite talk of a political mandate, the long-running battle over federal judgeships will be in full bloom when the new Congress convenes next year under strengthened Republican control......As the second-most senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Specter is in line to replace the current chairman, Senator Orin Hatch of Utah, who must step down under Senate rules that limit the terms of committee chairmen to eight years. The position will give Specter, a centrist who is known for his independent streak, great influence over the judicial confirmation process. The issue of judicial nominations percolated throughout the elections, including Specter's own. This spring, he faced a difficult primary challenge he faced a difficulty primary challenge from Rep. Patrick J. Toomey, a conservative Republican, who labeled Specter a "Ted Kennedy" liberal who would block conservative judges if he ascended to the Judiciary charmanship.With help from the White House, Specter won that race, and then went on Tuesday to win a fifth term in the Senate. He broached the topic of Roe v. Wade, the 1973 ruling that legalized abortion nationally, in an interview with The Associated Press. "When you talk about judges who would change the right of a woman to choose, overturn Roe v. Wade, I think that is unlikely" that they would be approved, Specter said. On Thursday, Specter did not dispute those remarks. He said that he was simply noting "the political reality of the Senate on the Democrats' filibustering."end of articleThe last remarks remind me of the 10 spies that came back from spying out the land and did not believe God. In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 8, 2004

There will come a time where the nations will be just like those spoken of in Ezekiel 22. Listen to the types of sins the Lord found in His people.Ezek. 22:23 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 24 “Son of man, say to her: ‘You are a land that is not cleansed or rained on in the day of indignation.’ 25 The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured people; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in her midst. 26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes in her midst are like wolves tearing the prey, to shed blood, to destroy people, and to get dishonest gain. 28 Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, “Thus says the Lord GOD,’ when the LORD had not spoken. 29 The people of the land have used oppressions, committed robbery, and mistreated the poor and needy; and they wrongfully oppress the stranger. 30 So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one. 31 Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord GOD. " Ezekiel 22Do you see the blood in the streets? Do you see oppression brought about for monetary gain? Do you see the mixing of the clean and the unclean? Where is the heart of the people around you?What season is it? In ChristJeff

Rahman Nov 8, 2004

Well brother Jeff, first off Sen. Specter is no Messianic Jew, and thereby no friend of Christ, for the usual reasons ...And to me, the season we're living in is definitely that of "Harvest" ... The questions are what have we sown that we're about to get back in spades? ... and ... Will we reap as vessels of mercy, or vessels of wrath? ...Praise God ALL who find themselves listed of the former, for they shall be major reapers of the souls of men into the Kingdom ... Amen

sermonindex Nov 9, 2004

"Well brother Jeff, first off Sen. Specter is no Messianic Jew, and thereby no friend of Christ, for the usual reasons."Rahman, I'm a bit confused as to what you meant by all that. Curious, what are "the usual reasons"?Rahman, haven't you discerned the real reason why neither democrat or republican is serious about ending abortion on demand?get on your knees and ask God, He might tell you.Hint...it has something to do with the reason our nation is embroiled in this sinful war in Iraq.

Rahman Nov 10, 2004

Brother Neil,When i posted the statement about Specter the Spirit let me know that you'd be all over it like white on rice ... The most difficult thing for the Spirit of God to do with all folk, but in particular Jews and Af/Am's, is to get us to stop operating out of our ethnic connection, and to get and stay in the Spirit connection ...i don't mean to be rude but i don't think you're at all confused or curious about my Specter statement, but moreso tweaked by it in the flesh, as a Jew ... By my estimation it's the same reason why so many Af/Am Christians could condone Kerry's ultra liberal agenda by voting from the strictly natural stand point of being Black ...Brother Neil get a grip ... the election is over ... God's will is apparent ... God's Will is Done ... Pres. Bush Remains America's Leader...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3595&forum=35&2So your grief is no longer with me, but with God Himself, who's allowed this war in Iraq, and Bush to be President for four more years ... You keep blaming this war on Bush, when your bigger, and more spiritual question should be, "What is God's purpose for the U.S. being in Iraq" ... The natural man points toward the things in the natural, but the spiritual man points toward the things of the Spirit ... In the final analysis, all fingers point to God ... God allowed my ancestors to go thru the hell of slavery, as He allowed yours to go thru the hell of the holocaust, it was His will, for His reasons, and as a Christian that has freed me to seeing all things from that higher spiritual vantage point ...You wrote, quote;"get on your knees and ask God, He might tell you".Excellent advice! ... and since my life verse is Jeremiah 33:3 i'm a witness that it's not "might" tell me, but "will" answer me back, and tell me great and mighty things i knowest not ... How do you think i know the things i know? ... It's because He decided to choose this foolish one, to confound the wise ...But if in fact you really are curious about why a non Messianic Jew is no friend of Christ, being that you are a Messianic Jew yourself, then may i suggest you follow your own advice and, "get on your knees and ask God, He will tell you" ... But will you be open to the hearing? ... i can tell you that you both won't and can't if you don't hear Him in Spirit alone ... Gal. 3[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.This will be my last post to you on this matter as i'm beginning to feel like Paul in Acts chapter 16 ... i love you brother Neil, and am praying that God removes the scales from the eyes of which of us, or both of us, as needed ... Amen

rookie Nov 11, 2004

From the posting of Ezekiel 22, we learn of the manifestations of wickedness that God identified in the nation of Israel. The root of this wickedness seems to speak of the love of money doesn't it? Remember Paul's warning to Timothy, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil..." 1 Timothy 6:10Further on in Ezekiel we find another nation that God declares judgement on. The nation of Tyre consisted of a company of traders. Listen to the description of Tyre:Ezek. 27:1 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 2 “Now, son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyre, 3 and say to Tyre, “You who are situated at the entrance of the sea, merchant of the peoples on many coastlands, thus says the Lord GOD:\t“O Tyre, you have said,\t‘I am perfect in beauty.’ 4 \tYour borders are in the midst of the seas.\tYour builders have perfected your beauty. 5 \tThey made all your planks of fir trees from Senir;\tThey took a cedar from Lebanon to make you a mast. 6 \tOf oaks from Bashan they made your oars;\tThe company of Ashurites have inlaid your planks\tWith ivory from the coasts of Cyprus. 7 \tFine embroidered linen from Egypt was what you spread for your sail;\tBlue and purple from the coasts of Elishah was what covered you. 8 \t“Inhabitants of Sidon and Arvad were your oarsmen;\tYour wise men, O Tyre, were in you;\tThey became your pilots. 9 \tElders of Gebal and its wise men\tWere in you to caulk your seams;\tAll the ships of the sea\tAnd their oarsmen were in you\tTo market your merchandise. 10 \t“Those from Persia, Lydia, and Libya\tWere in your army as men of war;\tThey hung shield and helmet in you;\tThey gave splendor to you. 11 \tMen of Arvad with your army were on your walls all around,\tAnd the men of Gammad were in your towers;\tThey hung their shields on your walls all around;\tThey made your beauty perfect. Ezek. 27:12 “Tarshish was your merchant because of your many luxury goods. They gave you silver, iron, tin, and lead for your goods. 13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech were your traders. They bartered human lives and vessels of bronze for your merchandise. 14 Those from the house of Togarmah traded for your wares with horses, steeds, and mules. 15 The men of Dedan were your traders; many isles were the market of your hand. They brought you ivory tusks and ebony as payment. 16 Syria was your merchant because of the abundance of goods you made. They gave you for your wares emeralds, purple, embroidery, fine linen, corals, and rubies. 17 Judah and the land of Israel were your traders. They traded for your merchandise wheat of Minnith, millet, honey, oil, and balm. 18 Damascus was your merchant because of the abundance of goods you made, because of your many luxury items, with the wine of Helbon and with white wool. 19 Dan and Javan paid for your wares, traversing back and forth. Wrought iron, cassia, and cane were among your merchandise. 20 Dedan was your merchant in saddlecloths for riding. 21 Arabia and all the princes of Kedar were your regular merchants. They traded with you in lambs, rams, and goats. 22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah were your merchants. They traded for your wares the choicest spices, all kinds of precious stones, and gold. 23 Haran, Canneh, Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Assyria, and Chilmad were your merchants. 24 These were your merchants in choice items—in purple clothes, in embroidered garments, in chests of multicolored apparel, in sturdy woven cords, which were in your marketplace. 25 \t“The ships of Tarshish were carriers of your merchandise.\tYou were filled and very glorious in the midst of the seas. 26 \tYour oarsmen brought you into many waters,\tBut the east wind broke you in the midst of the seas. 27 \t“Your riches, wares, and merchandise,\tYour mariners and pilots,\tYour caulkers and merchandisers,\tAll your men of war who are in you,\tAnd the entire company which is in your midst,\tWill fall into the midst of the seas on the day of your ruin. 28 \tThe common-land will shake at the sound of the cry of your pilots. 29 \t“All who handle the oar,\tThe mariners,\tAll the pilots of the sea\tWill come down from their ships and stand on the shore. 30 \tThey will make their voice heard because of you;\tThey will cry bitterly and cast dust on their heads;\tThey will roll about in ashes; 31 \tThey will shave themselves completely bald because of you,\tGird themselves with sackcloth,\tAnd weep for you\tWith bitterness of heart and bitter wailing. 32 \tIn their wailing for you\tThey will take up a lamentation,\tAnd lament for you:\t“What city is like Tyre,\tDestroyed in the midst of the sea? 33 \t“When your wares went out by sea,\tYou satisfied many people;\tYou enriched the kings of the earth\tWith your many luxury goods and your merchandise. 34 \tBut you are broken by the seas in the depths of the waters;\tYour merchandise and the entire company will fall in your midst. 35 \tAll the inhabitants of the isles will be astonished at you;\tTheir kings will be greatly afraid,\tAnd their countenance will be troubled. 36 \tThe merchants among the peoples will hiss at you;\tYou will become a horror, and be no more forever.’ Now listen to prophesy in Revelation 18:Rev. 18:9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, “Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’ Rev. 18:11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, “Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, “What is like this great city?’ Rev. 18:19 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’ Do you see the root?to be continuedIn ChristJeff

rookie Nov 12, 2004

We are given a snapshot of an event that happens in the last days, at the time of judgement, where our Lord will be the rod of correction, the Lion of Judah. One of the ways Satan has deceived many, is manifested in the story of the Mystery of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots. Listen to Revelation 17:Rev. 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.” Rev. 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:\t\tMYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. What is the nature of this deception? It is said that, "the kings of the earth committed fornication," with her. In the past post we are given an example of a nation whose activities mirrow the events depicted in Revelation 18. The king of Tyre committed fornication with the Mother of Harlots. Listen to God's description of the result of the kings fornication with the Harlot.Ezek. 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, “Thus says the Lord GOD:\t‘You were the seal of perfection,\tFull of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 \tYou were in Eden, the garden of God;\tEvery precious stone was your covering:\tThe sardius, topaz, and diamond,\tBeryl, onyx, and jasper,\tSapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.\tThe workmanship of your timbrels and pipes\tWas prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 \t“You were the anointed cherub who covers;\tI established you;\tYou were on the holy mountain of God;\tYou walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 \tYou were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,\tTill iniquity was found in you. First we see that by the power of God, this man was established king of the nation of Tyre. In the book of Job, we see that God picks and destroys the kings of the earth. Listen to a description of how God rules over this world.17 \tShould one who hates justice govern?\tWill you condemn Him who is most just? 18 \tIs it fitting to say to a king, “You are worthless,’\tAnd to nobles, ‘You are wicked’? 19 \tYet He is not partial to princes,\tNor does He regard the rich more than the poor;\tFor they are all the work of His hands. 20 \tIn a moment they die, in the middle of the night;\tThe people are shaken and pass away;\tThe mighty are taken away without a hand. 21 \t“For His eyes are on the ways of man,\tAnd He sees all his steps. 22 \tThere is no darkness nor shadow of death\tWhere the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. 23 \tFor He need not further consider a man,\tThat he should go before God in judgment. 24 \tHe breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,\tAnd sets others in their place. 25 \tTherefore He knows their works;\tHe overthrows them in the night,\tAnd they are crushed. 26 \tHe strikes them as wicked men\tIn the open sight of others, 27 \tBecause they turned back from Him,\tAnd would not consider any of His ways, 28 \tSo that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him;\tFor He hears the cry of the afflicted. 29 \tWhen He gives quietness, who then can make trouble?\tAnd when He hides His face, who then can see Him,\tWhether it is against a nation or a man alone?— 30 \tThat the hypocrite should not reign,\tLest the people be ensnared. Now listen to God's judgement of the king of Tyre.16 \t“By the abundance of your trading\tYou became filled with violence within,\tAnd you sinned;\tTherefore I cast you as a profane thing\tOut of the mountain of God;\tAnd I destroyed you, O covering cherub,\tFrom the midst of the fiery stones. 17 \t“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;\tYou corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;\tI cast you to the ground,\tI laid you before kings,\tThat they might gaze at you. 18 \t“You defiled your sanctuaries\tBy the multitude of your iniquities,\tBy the iniquity of your trading;\tTherefore I brought fire from your midst;\tIt devoured you,\tAnd I turned you to ashes upon the earth\tIn the sight of all who saw you. Do you see the common thread of the deception? In a previous post we heard of the judgement of Israel. The nation of Israel was judged for the murder and oppression of the people as the kings and princes sought to secure their safety in the abundance of their treasure. Ezekiel 22:13, "Behold, therefore, I beat My fists at the dishonest profit which you have made, and at the bloodshed which has been in your midst." The king of Tyre is judged by God's same standards. Listen to how adultery with Babylon the whore, manifestes itself in those who submit to Satan's ways. Ezek. 28:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, “Thus says the Lord GOD:\t“Because your heart is lifted up,\tAnd you say, ‘I am a god,\tI sit in the seat of gods,\tIn the midst of the seas,’\tYet you are a man, and not a god,\tThough you set your heart as the heart of a god3 \t(Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!\tThere is no secret that can be hidden from you! 4 \tWith your wisdom and your understanding\tYou have gained riches for yourself,\tAnd gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; 5 \tBy your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,\tAnd your heart is lifted up because of your riches),” Ezek. 28:6 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD:\t‘Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god, 7 \tBehold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,\tThe most terrible of the nations;\tAnd they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,\tAnd defile your splendor. 8 \tThey shall throw you down into the Pit,\tAnd you shall die the death of the slain\tIn the midst of the seas. 9 \t“Will you still say before him who slays you,\t‘I am a god’?\tBut you shall be a man, and not a god,\tIn the hand of him who slays you. 10 \tYou shall die the death of the uncircumcised\tBy the hand of aliens;\tFor I have spoken,” says the Lord GOD.’ ” To be continued,In ChristJeff

Rahman Nov 12, 2004

Brother Jeff i love this thread of yours ... Your recent posts remind me of this scripture ...Ezek.47[3] And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.[4] Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.[5] Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.i'd say our Lord has you swimming man, while most are comfortable only at the ankles, knees and loins ... It takes a certain type of saint to swim in our God's river ... Anyhow you wrote;"In the book of Job, we see that God picks and destroys the kings of the earth". Man, if the child of God could ever fathom this! ... We are all either vessels of His mercy, or vessels of His wrath ... Our God has it all under control, as really we as small mankind are in control of nothing, as nothing transpires without it being the will of God ... First off we who know Him should be ever praising Him that we're vessels of mercy, and be fully open to His using us in any capacity He sees fit ... We're His, bought and paid for! ... But this is not the gist of my post ...Brother Jeff i don't know if in you're reading/researching Ezekiel if you were as struck as i was as to how much Ezekiel and the Revelation have in common ... The Revelation mentions the river that Ezekiel expounds upon ... And also have you noticed that you can't really find any good, in depth sermons on Ezekiel, as with the Revelation? ... It seems that these two books which start out in, and gives such vivid descriptions of the heavenlies, makes many a saint of God shun them, but isn't it ironic that the Revelation is the only book of the Bible with an actual blessing bestowed to all that read it, but so many preachers avoid it by saying it really doesn't affect the Church past chapter 3, so it's of no consequence to us ...Keep swimming and diving my brother, and i'll keep reading what our Lord is working out in you ... Amen

rookie Nov 13, 2004

Br. Rahman wrote:Brother Jeff i don't know if in you're reading/researching Ezekiel if you were as struck as i was as to how much Ezekiel and the Revelation have in common ... The Revelation mentions the river that Ezekiel expounds upon ... And also have you noticed that you can't really find any good, in depth sermons on Ezekiel, as with the Revelation? ... It seems that these two books which start out in, and gives such vivid descriptions of the heavenlies, makes many a saint of God shun them, but isn't it ironic that the Revelation is the only book of the Bible with an actual blessing bestowed to all that read it, but so many preachers avoid it by saying it really doesn't affect the Church past chapter 3, so it's of no consequence to us ...I agree Brother. What I am seeing is that the kings of the earth, since at least Nimrod have been influenced by the Harlot. Revelation 1823 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” Please note that the sorcery has affected all nations and also that the blood of the prophets and saints were spilled because of this sorcery.Brother Rahman, I fear that our teaching of these two books are limited because many have been found to be under the spell of Her sorcery. I agree that there is much to learn of the way Satan has grip over this world and these two books are the key to understanding his ways.In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 15, 2004

We have seen the judgment of Israel and Tyre. We have seen that these kings and princes have exaulted themselves before God. We have seen that they did not obey God. Let us look at more examples of the same precept. That precept being the judgment of God upon the kings of this world who submit to Satan. This Scripture speaks of God's establishing and then judging Pharaoh and Egypt. God is raising up Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom of Babylon as the destructor. Ezekiel 312 “Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude:\t‘Whom are you like in your greatness? 3 \tIndeed Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon,\tWith fine branches that shaded the forest,\tAnd of high stature;\tAnd its top was among the thick boughs. 4 \tThe waters made it grow;\tUnderground waters gave it height,\tWith their rivers running around the place where it was planted,\tAnd sent out rivulets to all the trees of the field. 5 \t“Therefore its height was exalted above all the trees of the field;\tIts boughs were multiplied,\tAnd its branches became long because of the abundance of water,\tAs it sent them out. 6 \tAll the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs;\tUnder its branches all the beasts of the field brought forth their young;\tAnd in its shadow all great nations made their home. 7 \t“Thus it was beautiful in greatness and in the length of its branches,\tBecause its roots reached to abundant waters. 8 \tThe cedars in the garden of God could not hide it;\tThe fir trees were not like its boughs,\tAnd the chestnut trees were not like its branches;\tNo tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty. 9 \tI made it beautiful with a multitude of branches,\tSo that all the trees of Eden envied it,\tThat were in the garden of God.’ Ezek. 31:10 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Because you have increased in height, and it set its top among the thick boughs, and its heart was lifted up in its height, 11 therefore I will deliver it into the hand of the mighty one of the nations, and he shall surely deal with it; I have driven it out for its wickedness. 12 And aliens, the most terrible of the nations, have cut it down and left it; its branches have fallen on the mountains and in all the valleys; its boughs lie broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the peoples of the earth have gone from under its shadow and left it. Please note the description of God's work to establish Pharaoh's kingdom. Now listen to God's description of Nebuchadnezzar's vision in the book of Daniel.Daniel 410 “These were the visions of my head while on my bed:\tI was looking, and behold,\tA tree in the midst of the earth,\tAnd its height was great. 11 \tThe tree grew and became strong;\tIts height reached to the heavens,\tAnd it could be seen to the ends of all the earth. 12 \tIts leaves were lovely,\tIts fruit abundant,\tAnd in it was food for all.\tThe beasts of the field found shade under it,\tThe birds of the heavens dwelt in its branches,\tAnd all flesh was fed from it. Do you see how God raises up the kings of this earth. Do you see the repetition of events as one kingdom is replaced by another. It is always for the same reason. The kings have exaulted themselves above God. Now listen to the God's discipline of Nebuchadnezzar.Daniel 413 “I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven. 14 He cried aloud and said thus:\t“Chop down the tree and cut off its branches,\tStrip off its leaves and scatter its fruit.\tLet the beasts get out from under it,\tAnd the birds from its branches. 15 \tNevertheless leave the stump and roots in the earth,\tBound with a band of iron and bronze,\tIn the tender grass of the field.\tLet it be wet with the dew of heaven,\tAnd let him graze with the beasts\tOn the grass of the earth. 16 \tLet his heart be changed from that of a man,\tLet him be given the heart of a beast,\tAnd let seven times pass over him. 17 \t“This decision is by the decree of the watchers,\tAnd the sentence by the word of the holy ones,\tIn order that the living may know\tThat the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,\tGives it to whomever He will,\tAnd sets over it the lowest of men.’ Now this discipline of the king commensed 12 months later because of this king's heart being lifted up in his own mind. Daniel 428 All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of the twelve months he was walking about the royal palace of Babylon. 30 The king spoke, saying, “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?” 31 While the word was still in the king’s mouth, a voice fell from heaven: “King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! Now we know that this king repented. But his son would see the hand writing on the wall. Do you see how God works within His creation? Do you see His precepts and how He establishes the government and destroys the same government. Do you see the reason for judgment?1 Corinthians 1:1Cor. 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence."Those who follow Satan reflect his image and commit the same sin.to be continuedIn ChristJeff

Rahman Nov 15, 2004

Brother Jeff you wrote;"I agree Brother. What I am seeing is that the kings of the earth, since at least Nimrod have been influenced by the Harlot.Please note that the sorcery has affected all nations and also that the blood of the prophets and saints were spilled because of this sorcery.Brother Rahman, I fear that our teaching of these two books are limited because many have been found to be under the spell of Her sorcery. I agree that there is much to learn of the way Satan has grip over this world and these two books are the key to understanding his ways".Amen brother Jeff! ... If you've not heard this series then i think you'll find it most interesting! ...Scarlet Threads, History of Mystery Babylon 1 - 12 ... Bob Faulknerhttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2788&forum=42#17771Bro. R

rookie Nov 15, 2004

Br. Rahman,Thankyou. I have not heard of this man, I will check it out. In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 16, 2004

Job 34:24 \tHe breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,\tAnd sets others in their place. 25 \tTherefore He knows their works;\tHe overthrows them in the night,\tAnd they are crushed. 26 \tHe strikes them as wicked men\tIn the open sight of others, 27 \tBecause they turned back from Him,\tAnd would not consider any of His ways, We hear that God does indeed establish the kings and their kingdoms on earth. We hear that God causes His rains to fall upon them. We see that the hand of God brings this all to be. In addition to this we also see that according to Scripture, the kingdoms eventually are destroyed by God because, "27 \tBecause they turned back from Him,\tAnd would not consider any of His ways, In Job 37:6 \tFor He says to the snow, “Fall on the earth’;\tLikewise to the gentle rain and the heavy rain of His strength. 7 \tHe seals the hand of every man,\tThat all men may know His work. 8 \tThe beasts go into dens,\tAnd remain in their lairs. 9 \tFrom the chamber of the south comes the whirlwind,\tAnd cold from the scattering winds of the north.10 \tBy the breath of God ice is given,\tAnd the broad waters are frozen. 11 \tAlso with moisture He saturates the thick clouds;\tHe scatters His bright clouds. 12 \tAnd they swirl about, being turned by His guidance,\tThat they may do whatever He commands them\tOn the face of the whole earth. 13 \tHe causes it to come,\tWhether for correction,\tOr for His land,\tOr for mercy. It is God who brings the gentle rains. It is God who establishes the kingdoms of men. And it is of God when He brings " the heavy rain of His strength."The first rain is for establishing, the second rain is for harvesting. Each one is judged according to his deeds. What do you see happening in the world? Is it the gentle rain that is to come upon us or is it the latter rain of His strength? In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 17, 2004

Now let us look more closely at the Harlot, Mystery, Babylon the Great. Rev. 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.” Please note that the kings of the earth committed fornication with her. Again in Scripture:2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! 3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.” Please note that all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Please note it is the kings who enter into the bond with her. And finally, please note the substance of the wine. What is the result of the fornication of the Harlot and the kings of all nations. "...the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury." What does Scripture say about the power of this woman? Revelation 17: 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Listen to her words,"I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow." Revelation 18:7Now listen to the words of Lucifer.Isaiah 14:13 \tFor you have said in your heart:\t“I will ascend into heaven,\tI will exalt my throne above the stars of God;\tI will also sit on the mount of the congregation\tOn the farthest sides of the north; 14 \tI will ascend above the heights of the clouds,\tI will be like the Most High.’ Now listen to the description of the king of Tyre:Ezek. 28:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, “Thus says the Lord GOD:\t“Because your heart is lifted up,\tAnd you say, ‘I am a god,\tI sit in the seat of gods,\tIn the midst of the seas,’\tYet you are a man, and not a god,\tThough you set your heart as the heart of a god3 \t(Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!\tThere is no secret that can be hidden from you! 4 \tWith your wisdom and your understanding\tYou have gained riches for yourself,\tAnd gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; 5 \tBy your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,\tAnd your heart is lifted up because of your riches),” Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 6:16,1Cor. 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.There are two peoples, the bride of satan and the Bride of Christ. The one who joins himself to the harlot becomes one with the harlot. The one who joins himself with Christ becomes one with Christ.Now look back to Isaiah 14:Is. 14:3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:\t“How the oppressor has ceased,\tThe golden city ceased! 5 \tThe LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,\tThe scepter of the rulers; 6 \tHe who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,\tHe who ruled the nations in anger,\tIs persecuted and no one hinders. 7 \tThe whole earth is at rest and quiet;\tThey break forth into singing. 8 \tIndeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,\tAnd the cedars of Lebanon,\tSaying, “Since you were cut down,\tNo woodsman has come up against us.’ 9 \t“Hell from beneath is excited about you,\tTo meet you at your coming;\tIt stirs up the dead for you,\tAll the chief ones of the earth;\tIt has raised up from their thrones\tAll the kings of the nations. 10 \tThey all shall speak and say to you:\t“Have you also become as weak as we?\tHave you become like us? 11 \tYour pomp is brought down to Sheol,\tAnd the sound of your stringed instruments;\tThe maggot is spread under you,\tAnd worms cover you.’ 12 \t“How you are fallen from heaven,\tO Lucifer, son of the morning!\tHow you are cut down to the ground,\tYou who weakened the nations! 13 \tFor you have said in your heart:\t“I will ascend into heaven,\tI will exalt my throne above the stars of God;\tI will also sit on the mount of the congregation\tOn the farthest sides of the north; 14 \tI will ascend above the heights of the clouds,\tI will be like the Most High.’ 15 \tYet you shall be brought down to Sheol,\tTo the lowest depths of the Pit. 16 \t“Those who see you will gaze at you,\tAnd consider you, saying:\t‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,\tWho shook kingdoms, 17 \tWho made the world as a wilderness\tAnd destroyed its cities,\tWho did not open the house of his prisoners?’ 18 \t“All the kings of the nations,\tAll of them, sleep in glory,\tEveryone in his own house; 19 \tBut you are cast out of your grave\tLike an abominable branch,\tLike the garment of those who are slain,\tThrust through with a sword,\tWho go down to the stones of the pit,\tLike a corpse trodden underfoot. 20 \tYou will not be joined with them in burial,\tBecause you have destroyed your land\tAnd slain your people.\tThe brood of evildoers shall never be named. 21 \tPrepare slaughter for his children\tBecause of the iniquity of their fathers,\tLest they rise up and possess the land,\tAnd fill the face of the world with cities.” 22 \t“For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts,\t“And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,\tAnd offspring and posterity,” says the LORD. You see here we have judgment declared against the king of Babylon. Do you see the nature of his union with Lucifer. Do you see that they, meaning Lucifer and the king, have become one?All those kings who commit fornication with the Harlot take on the nature of Satan and they exault themselves above God. To be continuedIn ChristJeff

rookie Nov 18, 2004

During the time of the kings in Israel we find that there have been faithful servants. Roughly 25 percent of the these kings were determined righteous by God. However the majority were determined wicked. Then Scripture gives us commentary on the lives of the Gentile kings. This is where I need to focus the point I am labouring to bring to light. We know from the last few posts that the kings of this earth commit fornication with the Harlot. In addition we are given examples of times when this fornication creates kings that becomes exceeding wicked. These kings, because of their fornication with the Harlot, take on the same nature as Satan. They become one with Satan. Like Satan they too stand up before God and say they are god. At these times in the history of men, the Scriptures teaches that God's judgment is near. At these times in history the world experiences great terror. Scripture teaches that there is still to come another Day of the Lord. Listen to Jesus's depiction of the days prior to His return.Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.Matt. 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, “Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.Matt. 24:26 “Therefore if they say to you, “Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Matt. 24:32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."I am going to focus on the first verse of this section of Scripture. Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),."Jesus tells us that there is much to be learned from the book of Daniel in terms of what is coming in the future. He tells us that when we begin to see these things happening around us, the time is near for judgment. Listen again to this warning:Matt. 24:32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."What are the signs of these times going to look like?In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 18, 2004

Just a example of our times.The UN has warned that Afghanistan could become a "narco-state" after opium cultivation rose by two-thirds this year. A UN report released on Thursday urged the US and Nato forces to fight drugs as well as Taleban insurgents. It said Afghanistan now supplied 87% of world opium. In 2003, the trade was worth $2.8bn, representing more than 60% of gross domestic product. One in 10 Afghans are now estimated to be involved in the business. The UN said it would be an "historical error" to abandon the nation to opium. 'No silver bullet' The UN Afghanistan Opium Survey 2004 said the drug was now the "main engine of economic growth and the strongest bond among previously quarrelsome peoples" It said opium cultivation had increased by 64% compared to 2003. It would be an historical error to abandon Afghanistan to opium, right after we reclaimed it from the Taleban and al-Qaeda Antonio Maria Costa, executive director of the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, said the report was a wake-up call to the world. Mr Costa said the Afghan government was too weak to tackle the problem alone. He called on US and Nato-led forces to carry out military operations against drug traffickers. "In Afghanistan, drugs are now a clear and present danger," Mr Costa said. "The fear that Afghanistan might degenerate into a narco-state is becoming a reality." He said there was "no silver bullet" with which to tackle the problem. "The opium economy in Afghanistan has to be dismantled with democracy, the rule of law and economic improvement - it will be a long and difficult process," Mr Costa said. The UN report said opium production in 2004 was close to the peak of 4,600 tons in 1999, a year before the Taleban banned new cultivation. The BBC's Roland Buerk in Kabul says it is easy to see why 2.3m people - a tenth of the population - is involved in opium, when a farmer can earn more than 10 times as much growing poppies than cultivating wheat. US prosecutions The report came as the US announced a major new offensive against drug production in Afghanistan. Washington expects to spend an extra $780m in the next financial year on measures including the eradication of poppies and alternatives for farmers. US officials describe the new plan as a full-board commitment to support the new Afghan government in its battle against the growing drugs trade. A senior Western diplomat in Kabul also told the BBC there were plans to take some of the largest drugs barons to the United States to prosecute them there. Robert Charles, assistant secretary of state for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement, described poppy cultivation as a primary, if not the primary, concern for the country. Aggressive eradication would be backed up, Mr Charles said, by a public information campaign, better law enforcement and, perhaps most crucially, real alternatives for farmers. "You don't go in and eradicate in an area without making provision... for a marked up or added alternative development resources, or alternative livelihoods," he said.end of articleThere have been other times in history where drugs have been allowed to flourish and therefore undermine the people. Is this another time? Just look back to a time where Great Britian imported opium into China. They traded opium for tea. Today, what is the real reason for this event?In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 22, 2004

Returning to the Harlot:Isaiah 14:9 “Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. 10 They all shall speak and say to you: “Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’ 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. 16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, Again look to the way Lucifer sinned. Again realize that the king of Babylon became one with Lucifer. Just as Scripture speaks of One sitting on the throne of David and Christ interchangably so does Scripture speak of Lucifer and all those who are of his seed. We see that the nature of those who are of the seed of Satan reflect his nature and his sin. However, satan is a spiritual being, and the kings of this earth are of flesh. By what means does satan use to grow in men the same manifestations that he himself experienced?13 For you have said in your heart: “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ The work of the Harlot brings the fruit that Satan seeks. The work of the Harlot is focused on the kings of the earth. Again listen to Scripture:Rev. 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.” Again understand that the kings fornicate with the Harlot. Again understand that the fruit of this fornication makes the people drunk. This wine clouds their vision. This wine clouds their hearing. This wine disables their senses. Listen to Paul's teaching:2Th. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2Th. 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."What does Paul point out about the fruit of Satan? Lawlessness will abound and those who do not love the truth will be sent strong delusions that they should believe the lie. The fruit of the lie will give those who drink of this wine pleasure in unrighteousness.Paul warns: 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."The mystery is already at work. The fruit of this mystery will have a king that exaults himself above God. The fruit of this mystery will have the nations of the world take pleasure in his unrighteousness. How does the world satisfy itself in this day?In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 20, 2004

Br. Gregg wrote in the intercessory prayer section concerning President Bush being selected Time Magazine Man of the Year:Sorry brother Doug but theres no way that Bush is equal to hitler in any way. Wars have exisited almost since men was created and it has always been to protect themselves and their land. In the same way america is just literally protecting itself. Hitler on the other hand was a ruthless dictator that had a direct mission to inialate many different races predominatly jews. If the thought crosses your mind that Bush is trying to anialate muslims is false.I do not make this point to draw comparisons between President Bush and Hitler. One of the motivations for Hitler invading adjacent countries was to appropriate the gold and other commodities that he needed to stay afloat in a sea of debt. The United States currently is falling into debt at a pace not known in its history. History tells us that governments often times need to create enemies in order to unite the people in a cause that seems right in their own eyes. The United States lost the immediate threat of communism 14 years ago. Now we have a solidified public opinion that the Muslims are now the preeminant threat to world peace. Combine that thought with the increased demand for natural resources that exist in the middle east and you have a synergistic mix of reasons why we must democratize the region. Also look to the events in China, a fast developing country, which poses a great economic threat to the United State. As world powers seek to maintain or establish its economic control over the natural resources of the world, they will come into direct conflict with one another. I believe China, in the near future will begin to be painted as an evil empire which needs to be undermined. Iran and North Korea will also be on the back burner again because of their economic threat to the United States. I read a letter written by a soldier justifying the war he is fighting in. He stated that Iraq attacked us, therefore it is right that we fight to change that govenment. I thought to myself, I believe the majority of those who participated in 9/11 were citizen's of Saudi Arabia. What is the truth for why we fight?In ChristJeff

Gideons Dec 21, 2004

You're right Jeff. In one generation, the U.S. went from being the greatest creditor nation to now being the greatest debtor nation. How could that happen? Simply because of our greed and our need to have it now.If you've ever read "God's Plan in the Coming Depression" by David Wilkerson he writes "Christ is taking his chosen people into a wildnerness one last time, as a final opportunity to find a remnant who will fully trust him as savior and provider." We simply cannot continue to finance the tremendous deficits and the aggregrate amount of debt we have.I believe the economy will one day simply implode because of all the debt and that the dollar will no longer be the world standard. I'm saying that as someone who has spent a considerable amount of time studying economics. I do not believe the "status quo" will continue much longer. I certainly believe very difficult days are ahead and it's critical that we diligently seek the Lord now.

rookie Dec 21, 2004

Br. Neil wrote:Now in these days, the opposite has happened. the right wing is supplying the social gospel. The right wing in America is attempting to supplant God's Divine Truth by marrying it with the cult of state, the cult of military might, and the needs of the power elite, and their insatiable thirst for wealth and power, and to form a national church; hence you see this great caterwauling about how bad this speration of church and state is, when indeed the wisest thing our founding fathers did was to say, NO NATIONAL CHURCH. In many ways now, you see this man, George Bush acting as the Pastor-In-Chief.I finished reading Zechariah recently, and when I read your post these Scriptures came to mind.Zechariah 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."This particular idea came to mind regarding this verse: 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God."Please note, the rulers of this day will view the inhabitants of Jerusalem as their key to acquiring strenght because of their God.The one who comes to deceive will for a time make a covenant with God's people, not because of his relationship with God, but because of his desire to usurp the strenght of His people. Are the leaves of the fig tree beginning to sprout?In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 22, 2004

A secular thought on what the birth of Jesus meant to the world power at that time. By James CarrollRepublished from Boston Globe Jesus represents more than a guilty conscienceTHE SINGLE most important fact about the birth of Jesus, as recounted in the Gospels, is one that receives almost no emphasis in the American festival of Christmas. The child who was born in Bethlehem represented a drastic political challenge to the imperial power of Rome. The nativity story is told to make the point that Rome is the enemy of God, and in Jesus, Rome’s day is over.The Gospel of Matthew builds its nativity narrative around Herod’s determination to kill the baby, whom he recognizes as a threat to his own political sway. The Romans were an occupation force in Palestine, and Herod was their puppet-king. To the people of Israel, the Roman occupation, which preceded the birth of Jesus by at least 50 years, was a defilement, and Jewish resistance was steady. (The historian Josephus says that after an uprising in Jerusalem around the time of the birth of Jesus, the Romans crucified 2,000 Jewish rebels.)Herod was right to feel insecure on his throne. In order to preempt any challenge from the rumored newborn “king of the Jews,” Herod murdered “all the male children who were 2 years old or younger.” Joseph, warned in a dream, slipped out of Herod’s reach with Mary and Jesus. Thus, right from his birth, the child was marked as a political fugitive.The Gospel of Luke puts an even more political cast on the story. The narrative begins with the decree of Caesar Augustus calling for a world census—a creation of tax rolls that will tighten the empire’s grip on its subject peoples. It was Caesar Augustus who turned the Roman republic into a dictatorship, a power-grab he reinforced by proclaiming himself divine.His census decree is what requires the journey of Joseph and the pregnant Mary to Bethlehem, but it also defines the context of their child’s nativity as one of political resistance. When the angel announces to shepherds that a “savior has been born,” as scholars like Richard Horsley point out, those hearing the story would immediately understand that the blasphemous claim by Caesar Augustus to be “savior of the world” was being repudiated.When Jesus was murdered by Rome as a political criminal—crucifixion was the way such rebels were executed—the story’s beginning was fulfilled in its end. But for contingent historical reasons (the savage Roman war against the Jews in the late first century, the gradual domination of the Jesus movement by Gentiles, the conversion of Constantine in the early fourth century) the Christian memory deemphasized the anti-Roman character of the Jesus story. Eventually, Roman imperialism would be sanctified by the church, with Jews replacing Romans as the main antagonists of Jesus, as if he were not Jewish himself. (Thus, Herod is remembered more for being part-Jewish than for being a Roman puppet.)In modern times, religion and politics began to be understood as occupying separate spheres, and the nativity story became spiritualized and sentimentalized, losing its political edge altogether. “Peace” replaced resistance as the main motif. The baby Jesus was universalized, removed from his decidedly Jewish context, and the narrative’s explicit critiques of imperial dominance and of wealth were blunted.This is how it came to be that Christmas in America has turned the nativity of Jesus on its head. No surprise there, for if the story were told today with Roman imperialism at its center, questions might arise about America’s new self-understanding as an imperial power. A story of Jesus born into a land oppressed by a hated military occupation might prompt an examination of the American occupation of Iraq. A story of Jesus come decidedly to the poor might cast a pall over the festival of consumption. A story of the Jewishness of Jesus might undercut the Christian theology of replacement.Today the Roman empire is recalled mainly as a force for good—those roads, language, laws, civic magnificence, “order” everywhere. The United States of America also understands itself as acting in the world with good intentions, aiming at order. “New world order,” as George H.W. Bush put it.That we have this in common with Rome is caught by the Latin motto that appears just below the engraved pyramid on each American dollar bill, “Novus Ordo Seculorum.” But, as Iraq reminds us, such “order” comes at a cost, far more than a dollar. The price is always paid in blood and suffering by unseen “nobodies” at the bottom of the imperial pyramid. It is their story, for once, that is being told this week."end of article.Where is the power of the life of Christ today?In ChristJeff

rookie Feb 7, 2005

Listen to the leaders of the world. The words and hopes that are communicated to the seas of men identify the doctrine of secularization. It use to be the Nazi's and the Communist who promoted the rule of men. But listen closely to the prayers of the those who lead the nations. What is the substance of their faith; in man or in God?In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Feb 8, 2005

This article just goes to show that only the spirit can profit from spiritual things.

IRONMAN Feb 8, 2005

The world system has no room for God so everything rests on man and his abilities. This will undoubtedly lead to a lot of people being disappointed. We have become so intoxicated by our technologies (and other ologies and isms) that we just don't need God.

rookie Feb 8, 2005

I was watching a news program yesterday. What I have noticed recently, is that the news media are generating stories which point out discrepancies between Conservative Republican Leaderships stated doctrines and the actual actions that do not promote their positions.Yesterday's story involved the cable industry. All the major cable companies, Comcast, Adelphia, Turner, etc, market X-rated adult films to all markets in the U.S. They stated that they are only providing a service to those who demand such a product. Of course, they are making lots of money. And some of that money has been donated to people like George Bush and Bill Santouri for election campaigns. Since 1998, I believe it was Comcast has given President Bush $109,000.00, and Bill Santouri $12,000.00. The news story stated that, "Shouldn't these men give the money back? The world is watching to see if those who talk the talk walk the walk? In ChristJeff

rookie Feb 8, 2005

Those in the world know that God exists, yet they choose not to listen and be thankful. Those in the world look at many who profess Christ and declare the hypocrisy of that profession. The power of the world's proclamations will bring many to hate all that resembles Christianity. The love of many Christians will grow cold because of this battle. Many will turn away from those who profess Christ yet not demonstrate His love. Those of Sodom and Gamorrah will sit in judgement of those who blaspheme the name of God. In ChristJeff

rookie Feb 18, 2005

I've listened to all the audio that Br. Rahman suggested. The overwhelming thought that comes to mind after listening to these interviews, can be summed up, by one of the observations that one of these men made. He said, that the leaders in this country seem unwilling to take the steps necessary to correct the wrongs. Government steals the money from the Social Security Trust fund. Shareholders of corporations do not want the CEO's to report realistic data on earnings. Homebuyers do not understand or care about the debt that they are taking on. Wall Street people do not want you to know the depth of the problems that exist in our current financial system. All believe that things will remain the same. One man said that to sum up all of what I mentioned, it basically can be labeled as immoral blindness. He said every world power that has existed throughout time has destroyed its own currency because the people did not want to do the right things. The results of such behavior brings wars and desolations. The leaders are blind and the masses are blind. And we all drink from the wine of fornication with the Great Harlot, the kings and the sea of men. In ChristJeff

rookie Feb 18, 2005

Another thought, the men speaking in Rahman's list spoke of the possibility of hyper-inflation. They spoke of the lies that the government puts out every month on inflation. The truth is that inflation is growing much faster than what they are telling the public. This is a portion of an inflation report put out this morning."The PPI report was clearly disappointing and a bit of a warning signal that inflationary pressures could rise in the months ahead," said Michael Sheldon, chief market strategist, at Spencer Clarke LLC. Core inflation for wholesale goods, which excludes volatile food and energy prices, jumped 0.8 percent in January compared with forecasts of a 0.2 percent increase. This was the fastest rate of increase in six years. The overall producer price index increased 0.3 percent as expected."If core inflation prices were up .8% how then does the price index only go up .3%? In ChristJeff

rookie Feb 22, 2005

The continued drop in the value of the dollar will lead to hyperinflation. Hyperinflation will cause many problems within our nation. In the past, leaders during these times have started wars to take the people's minds off the evil that exists within a nation. I read this in the BBC today.Dollar drops on reserves concerns Recent rebounds in the dollar have proved to be short lived. The US dollar has dropped against major currencies on concerns that central banks may cut the amount of dollars they hold in their foreign reserves. Comments by South Korea's central bank at the end of last week have sparked the recent round of dollar declines. South Korea, which has about $200bn in foreign reserves, said it plans instead to boost holdings of currencies such as the Australian and Canadian dollar. Analysts reckon that other nations may follow suit and now ditch the dollar. At 1930 GMT, one euro was worth $1.325, up 1.46% on the day. The British pound had added 0.76% to reach $1.91, while the dollar had fallen by 1.25% against the Japanese yen to trade at 104.2 yen. Change in mood At the start of the year, the US currency, which had lost 7% against the euro in the final three months of 2004 and had fallen to record lows, staged something of a recovery. The comments from Korea come at a time when sentiment towards the dollar was already softening. Ian Gunner, Mellon Financial Analysts, however, pointed to the dollar's inability recently to extend that rally despite positive economic and corporate data, and highlighted the fact that many of the US's economic problems had not disappeared. The focus once again has been on the country's massive trade and budget deficits, with predictions of more dollar weakness to come. "The comments from Korea came at a time when sentiment towards the dollar was already softening," said Ian Gunner, a trader at Mellon Financial. On Tuesday, traders in Asia said that both South Korea and Taiwan had withdrawn their bids to buy dollars at the start of the session. Mansoor Mohi-Uddin, chief currency strategist at UBS, said that there was a sentiment in the market that "central banks from Asia and the Middle East are buying euros". A report last month already showed that the dollar was losing its allure as a currency that offered rock-steady returns and stability. Compiled by Central Banking Publications and sponsored by the UK's Royal Bank of Scotland, the survey found 39 nations out of 65 questioned were increasing their euro holdings, with 29 cutting back on the US dollar. In ChristJeff

Rahman Feb 22, 2005

Anyone confused about brother Jeff's latest post, they have to do with something I posted over on: "Where's Rahman"? ... America's Precarious Economy ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4275&forum=35#31327Brother Jeff i praise the Lord for you! ... You are the lone brother/saint that i can count on to get it! ... Holy Spirit said to me about a week ago during our study time (because i was in a fret) of His teaching me further from the life of Joseph, "Rahman no one wants to hear the story of the dreams I'm giving you until such time as I bring them to pass, then everyone will want to hear" ... Truth be told brother Jeff if young Joseph, much like myself as a relative babe in Christ when Holy Spirit first began talking to me, had of known the disdain he would have suffered for relaying his dreams to his family, he certainly wouldn't have ... The afore mentioned fret i was in at the time of Holy Spirit's prompting me to keep on believing had all to do with the past 20 years of hanging on to the dreams that i believe our Lord gave me for my life, and some very painful memories from my immediate and Church family when i conveyed to them what i heard our Lord say to me ... First, "I will make you a spokesman first to My Church, then to the nations" ... Second, "When your ministry takes off, it will take a multitude of people with it" ... Why He's saying to me what He's saying to me most recently i get no unction from Him to share with others (in fact He's shut my mouth) and so i'm content to study what He's taking me thru, and retaining it for whatever future use He has for me to it's use ... But because i know you too see the "Mene, Mene, Tekel and Parsin" of God's almighty hand on America's wall i will share with you the list of books He's taking me thru right now ... And man am i learning a lot! ..."The Great Bu$T Ahead: The Greatest Depression in American and UK History"By: Daniel A. Arnold"Conquer the Crash: You Can Survive and Prosper in a Deflationary Depression" By: Robert R. Prechter Jr."The Law of Recognition"By: Mike Murdock(A book that if i'd not been brought past my placing my predjudice above the voice of Holy Spirit i would never had ordered, as with Chironna's "You Can Let Go Now")"The Coming Crash in the Housing Market : 10 Things You Can Do Now to Protect Your Most Valuable Investment"By: John R. Talbott"The New Economic Disorder"By: Larry Bates (a Christian Writer)"How to Profit from the Coming Real Estate Bust : Money-Making Strategies for the End of the Housing Bubble"By: John Rubino"The Coming Collapse of the Dollar and How to Profit from It : Make a Fortune by Investing in Gold and Other Hard Assets" by JAMES TURK"Running On Empty: How The Democratic and Republican Parties Are Bankrupting Our Future"by Peter G. PetersonLast year our Lord told me to tell the pastor of my church that in the interim period of the coming economic collapse, and the time it takes for Him to unspot and unwrinkle His Church and bring in His remaining harvest, that He means for our church to be a church of provision and not one that has to be provided for ... Did he believe me? ... Of course not ... Can i blame him? ... Of couse not, for i often have trouble believing what i'm hearing myself ... But praise God for all of the stories of the OT saints for they were like men as myself ... I'm sure Joseph's hardest period was the very tail end of that last two year period when he must have been sure that those dreams he had so long ago must have been horrible giant figments of his boyish naive imagination ... That's what i think whenever i get into a fret at my present condition, but The Comforter never fails to come and prompt me on as i need prompting ... Brother Jeff i do believe i dimly see the fulfilment of my dreams like trees moving! ... And so i'm holding on for that one last Christ touch adjustment that will make me see my dreams turn into stark clear reality! ... Pray for me my brother, as i pray for you ...Here are a few more i think you'll be interested in! ... So many demonic chickens coming home to roost at this most appointed of times ...The Coming Collapse of the Dollar and How to Profit From Ithttp://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2005/Turk_Rubino.htmlLife After The Oil Crashhttp://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2004/Savinar.htmlWinning the Oil Endgamehttp://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2004/Glasgow.html Powerdown: Options and Actions for a Post-Carbon World http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2004/Heinberg.htmlThe End of Oil: On the Edge of a Perilous New World http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2004/Roberts.htmlThe Coming Collapse of the Dollar and How to Profit From Ithttp://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2005/Turk_Rubino.html

Rahman Mar 3, 2005

Brother Jeff,Where are you?All those years ago when Holy Spirit first led me to Jer. 33:3 and placed it within my spirit/heart to accept it as my life verse, and to take Him at His word that if i continue to call unto Him, He will indeed answer me, and tell me great and mighty things i do not know, i had no idea what i was in store for ... i was once like everyone else (saved or unsaved) regarding our present day, totally and blindly ignorant of the wicked scarlet thread of babylon that satan has been spinning in our world since Gen. 3:15 ... Holy Spirit is ever revealing to me satan and his thru the ages Babylonish world system toward the goal of his anti-Christ one world government, and one world economy under his man of perdition, in a most startling way ... i praise God for it in that my personality as always is one of inquisitiveness, and He knows that i most certainly believe with all that is me that when i diligently seek Him He's got to reward me, especially now that i've been adjusted to the desires of my heart now being the desires of His own ... He is taking me thru some understandings now that to me are mind blowing, so deep in fact that i have no immediate peer in which to discuss such things ... But at least in cyber world He's provided me you ... From reading this thread, and pondering some of the questions you've asked let's me know that our Lord has you a little further up the mountain than most ... In fact in some of the things He's revealing to me now, i understand this thread even better now ...As i stated earlier, one of the books that Holy Spirit led me to is ..."The New Economic Disorder"By: Larry Bates (a Christian Writer)This is a most interesting book in that the Christian writer, once a banker, gives some insightsinto our financial system that truly exposes satan's part in it ... But one of the things that really, really stuck out to me is his villification of The Fed ... Our Lord has shown me some really disturbing things about The Fed, in fact about the World Banking System period, and it was thru this book that Holy Spirit led me to this info ... Please pray first for Holy Spirit's discernment, and then check out the following and then please comment on what He tells you ... i've listened to this with great interest as this seems like the mother of all conspiracies ...Myron Fagan's Illuminati and Council on Foreign Relationshttp://www.usa-the-republic.com/illuminati/fagan_recording.htmlMyron C. Fagan Biography (1887-1972)http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/myronfaganbio.shtmlJacob H. Schiffhttp://www.upne.com/0-87451-948-9.html... there are things that i've heard in this series that seem just to weird to be true, but over the decades i've learned to hear the voice of Holy Spirit above my own weak limited reasoning, and what i'm hearing Him say is, "Rahman why do you doubt that satan could promote such a dark scheme with his own diobolical pawns, thru the ages, toward the building of his kingdom, when you firmly believe that I am doing so for My own even now in the Light"? ... After all brother Jeff a pagan Illuminati symbol does (dis)grace our dollar, right there beside "In God We Trust" ... There is so much going on in the kingdom of lucifer that has, is and will continue to reveal itself as we get even closer and closer to the tribulation period, but for so many that i view everyday (espeicially within the Church) these words of Jesus come to mind ..."And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is. And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time"? ... Luke 12: 54-56Contrary to one of satans greatest lies ... Ignorance is not bliss ... It's weeping and gnashing of teeth just waiting to happen ... Amen

rookie Mar 3, 2005

Br. Rahman wrote:Brother Jeff,Where are you?I'm in the book of Isaiah.Gen. 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil..."Sometimes I just don't desire to meditate on the evil that is revealed through the Light. It becomes a burden at times, I know you know. God BlessIn Christ Jeff

Rahman Mar 3, 2005

Brother Jeff you wrote:"Sometimes I just don't desire to meditate on the evil that is revealed through the Light. It becomes a burden at times, I know you know".Amen, i do know ... But i also know this, that some of us are chosen as watchmen on the wall whose very job it is to peer afar out over the horizon of the age we're living in while everyone else is going about their daily routines in the oblivious doings of their everyday lives (although in fact we all are supposed to be watching) ..."Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand" ... Joel.2:1Trouble is not to many like our trumpet blasts of impending trouble that interrupt their leisurely dwelling in the comfort of their Christian Cities ... They jest, "Repent for what? ... Flee to the mountains! ... Troubles coming! ... That trumpet blower must be on crack"! ...Ezek.3[17] Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of (Christ): therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.[27] But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.Alas, we are pretty rebellious ...God's perfect leading in His taking you thru Isaiah ... AmenRahman

rookie Mar 3, 2005

Br. Rahman wrote:Alas, we are pretty rebelliousEzekiel 33:2 “Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’ Paul wrote:26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. K.P. Yohanon says, "Who wants to be on Paul's team? Not me. The Scripture on the "watchman," haunts me as it does you. I sensed you would mention that thought.God Bless In ChristJeff

Rahman Mar 3, 2005

Brother Jeff you wrote ..."K.P. Yohanon says, "Who wants to be on Paul's team? Not me" ...Funny you should post this quote about Paul, for in a round about way (while ministering to a beloved brother the other day) concerning Holy Spirt's lesson to me about Joseph's being in prison, a lesson about Paul and Silas time in prison came thru ... i know that He gave me my Damascus Road experience with Him some time ago, and like Joseph i know the dream(s) He's given me, but just like Paul and Joseph both had to go thru God's prep time for each of their missions, i know i'm still going thru mine, and God knows that i'm chomping at the bit to get loose to whatever His loose is for me ... Anyhow i'd been telling our Lord lately how much i feel like i'm in a box that i just can't seem to get out of and how despondent i some times feel ... So He recently took me thru the life of Joseph and subsequently let me know that what i'm feeling is correct ... He let me know that it's He that has me in a sort of spiritual prison, and that it doesn't do me any good to pray, beg, scream, fret, throw tantrums or appeal to other human being to petition my freedom from this prison, for i can't get OUT until His appointed time/chain of events for it to be so" ... He in fact said to me, "Rahman stop fretting over the vision of grand service I gave you so long ago, for it will come to pass as soon as I deem it so ... But in the meanwhile glorify Me in your prison and do the work that I have for you to do in your prison for I have you there for but a season, and have set you in place as my blessing to those in this place with you ... Rahman you must learn to be faithful over the few before you can ever be faithful over the many, for you will never be able to do My work in the palace place until I have done My work in you in the prison place" ... That's when i heard Holy Spirit remind me of the words of our beloved Apostle Paul ... "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called ... Eph. 4:1 ... Then He followed it up with ..."And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor tokeep them safely: Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and madetheir feet fast in the stocks. And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God:and the prisoners heard them. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed" ... Acts 16:25,26And then it dawned on me the key for release is coming to understand that He is the one that has mehere, for His good purpose, and i must relax in knowing that i may not be able to detect the time when He'll release me, but from the life of Joseph, i know that it'll be at His perfect time, after i've been perfected by the experience! ... Our prison experience with Him is so that He can show us just how much we not only believe, but need Him, for even when things most assuredly are not appearing as a blessing in our lives, we hang onto Him in integrity anyway ... But also like Paul and Silas, what i must do in prison is to cast off my usualmelancholy (despair one minute)/choleric (anger the next) personality trait and both pray to in all thanksgiving and praise our Lord in the midst of an otherwise uncomfortable situation for it's not until our Lord shows us that we love Him so much that we can still both pray to and praise Him, in no matter what situation He has us in, that He can supernaturally release us, but even more important that because of our positive actions, He will also release all those around us too! ... Passing the test of prison (actual or figuratively) is not about us as much as it is about all those around us whom He will free thru us ... In prison He perfects us as servants first to Himself, then to His Body, and even to the heathen ... Brother Jeff you also wrote:"The Scripture on the "watchman," haunts me as it does you. I sensed you would mention that thought".Amen ... It doesn't just haunt me, it consumes me ... A "watchman" is what i know i'm called to be, and i know that the capacity of my office at this time is no where near where the vision(s) He gave me so long ago will take me once He's freed me to my full potential to His service ... So at this point if answering a resounding "YES" to being on Paul's team will cause He's freeing of me to that service then like Isaiah i say, "Lord here i am ... send me"!i also know full well that Holy Spirit bore witness between our spirits for you to know that i would be used to mention "watchman" to you, for you spoke of it "tiring" you ... Brother Jeff you and i are cut from the same cloth, with what i percieve as much of a similar mission, and however it may drain us, "It's like fire shut up in our bones", and until we complete His unctions, there is no rest ... Ameni love you my brother in Christ Jesus, and pray for you mightly, for yes i do know ... Man, do i know ...

rookie Mar 4, 2005

Br. Rahman,It is a wonderful thing to experience the Scripture becoming part of ones life. Many talk about shadows and symbols, but to be brought into Scripture, to experience Scripture, to me is the essences of the Word growing in me.To hear is the seal of the Life. To live a day in the Light, whether in trial or peace, is better than 1000 days spent else where. Thankyou for the joy of fellowship.God blessIn ChristJeff

rookie Mar 6, 2005

This is a quote earlier in this thread:Joseph Goebbels developed the science of propaganda to new heights during the reign of the Third Reich. This quote is taken from the same book, page 54."Although Hitler was the true genius of Nazi propaganda, he delegated day-to-day authority for its dissemination to the gifted disciple who liked to be called "Herr Doktor"--Paul Joseph Goebbels. An energetic little man who stood scarcely five feet tall and weighed just a bit more than 100 pounds, Goebbels had big eyes, a diabolical grin, and a talent for distortion, half-truths, and outright prevarication. For the benefit of future propagandists, Goebbels cynically summed up the essence of his craft; "Any lie, frequently repeated, will gradually gain acceptance."This article was in the Bakersfield Californian this morning:PRESIDENT CHALLENGES PUBLIC ON PENSIONSBush says he'll push plan until Social Secruty's dire prognosis "sinks in" despite wariness of AmericansBy Anne K. Kornblut and Sam Roberts, N.Y. Times News Service...After weeks of stiff opposition from Democrats and reluctance from members of his own party in Congress, Bush appeared to relish confronting his opponents head-on, as he has in past political fights. He promised to keep telling voters Social Security is headed for disaster "until it sinks in.""I'm going to keep saying it all around the country," he told an audience of hundreds of supporters at the New Jersey Army National Guard Armory in Westfield. "I like doing this, by the way--like going around the country, saying, "Folks, we have got a problem." .....Do you see the similarity between the methods of Goebbels and Bush. It is a lie, that Bush and Greenspan will continue to repeat before the public. You see back around 1983, Greenspan suggested that Social Security was in trouble. He reccomended that the tax be doubled to over 6%. That would then provide a huge surplus of cash for the comming baby boomer retirement. So since 1983, each year over 200 billion dollars have been paid into that surplus savings fund. That would mean that today we the tax payers should have trillions of dollars earning interest. But there is a problem. The government, from Ronald Regan, George Bush, Bill Clinton, and now the greatest spender of all time, Son of Bush, has spent every dime. Now Greenspan and Son of Bush are pushing the lie once again. The bankers who own the U.S. do not want to have to be held accountable for the liabilities that wiil soon come due. The strength of the currency will diminish. Those who rule, rule with immoral methods.In the next month listen to the frequency of the lie. Do you remember the phrase, "Weapons of Mass Distruction?" Now it will be, "Social Secrurity is bankrupt." Actually the American government is bankrupt.In ChristJeff

Rahman Mar 6, 2005

Brother Jeff you wrote:"To live a day in the Light, whether in trial or peace, is better than 1000 days spent else where. Thank you for the joy of fellowship".Amen to your first, and ditto to the last ... The most amazing, fascinating and spine tingling part (for me) to Jer: 33:3 is that the all powerful Lord God Creator of the universe promises to "answer" our call ... Holy Jesus!You further wrote:"Actually the American government is bankrupt".The sobering part for me is that the greater majority of Americans don't know this, but the scariest part is that neither do most Christians ... It takes megs bucks to keep afloat mega churches, and some of them are as leveraged out as the leveraged out banks they've borrowed all that money from, who in turn borrowed their money from the leveraged out Fed ... Here we for the most part have only seen what has negatively transpired in our open society by our complete dismissal of God as our ultimate Authority, but now the S&L scandal of the early 80's, the Stock Market crash of 1987, the LBO crash of 1990, the Commercial Real Estate Crash of 1990, the 1993-94 crashes in Japan and America's most recent Tech Stock crash in 2000 is systematically, and escalatingly so, revealing to us what happens in the money sector without Godly inspired regulations ... America's become one gigantic over (debt) inflated ballon soon ready to ... POP! ... God have mercy on His saints!

rookie Mar 7, 2005

Br. Rahman wrote:... Here we for the most part have only seen what has negatively transpired in our open society by our complete dismissal of God as our ultimate Authority,This reminds me of Scripture that I have read recently. Jerusalem had grown fat and oppresive. They had forgot the "Old Path." Listen to Isaiah 22:8 \tHe removed the protection of Judah.\tYou looked in that day to the armor of the House of the Forest; 9 \tYou also saw the damage to the city of David,\tThat it was great;\tAnd you gathered together the waters of the lower pool. 10 \tYou numbered the houses of Jerusalem,\tAnd the houses you broke down\tTo fortify the wall. 11 \tYou also made a reservoir between the two walls\tFor the water of the old pool.\tBut you did not look to its Maker,\tNor did you have respect for Him who fashioned it long ago. 12 \tAnd in that day the Lord GOD of hosts\tCalled for weeping and for mourning,\tFor baldness and for girding with sackcloth. 13 \tBut instead, joy and gladness,\tSlaying oxen and killing sheep,\tEating meat and drinking wine:\t“Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!” 14 \tThen it was revealed in my hearing by the LORD of hosts,\t“Surely for this iniquity there will be no atonement for you,\tEven to your death,” says the Lord GOD of hosts. God removed the protection of Judah in that day, for the people's hearts said, "Let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die!" In this Scripture it speaks of a nation that has begun to witness destruction. Their response has been to tear down their houses so that they might build a wall of defense or a fortress to protect them. Does that not sound like today? All of a sudden we are spending 100s of billions on homeland defense. The money we are spending in based on debt not cash. Are we not tearing down our own houses to build a fortress? In ChristJeff

rookie Mar 7, 2005

Here is an article describing one man's opinion of these times. Lex: Buffett/trade deficitSunday March 6, 1:45 pm ET Warren Buffett's letters to shareholders at times read like scripts from The Waltons TV show. But the billionaire fund manager's folksy style is a breath of fresh air for currency investors used to the obfuscation of Alan Greenspan, chairman of the Federal Reserve.Mr Buffett believes the dollar has further to fall and the US trade deficit risks turning America into a "sharecropper's society". It is only fair to point out that the chairman of Berkshire Hathaway is talking his own book. The value of the group's foreign exchange contracts mostly short positions against the dollar increased to $21.4bn at December 31 2004 from $12bn the previous year. That caveat aside, Mr Buffett's reasoning has merit.Some might argue that while foreigners are happy to finance the US deficit by recycling their corresponding surpluses into dollar assets the situation is sustainable. But, as Mr Buffett's sharecropping analogy highlights, that argument ignores the transfer of wealth that accompanies persistent large trade deficits. US net external liabilities are currently about three times export earnings. With a trade deficit amounting to 5.4 per cent of gross domestic product, net indebtedness continues to grow. It is unlikely that America can trade its way out of the problem. Since 1991, the share of exports in US GDP has remained static, at close to 10 per cent, while the share of imports has jumped by five percentage points.Not all of the transfer of wealth to the rest of the world leaves US control. Part of the deficit reflects trade between US-based companies and their overseas subsidiaries. But it has been the willingness of foreign central banks, particularly in Asia, to accumulate currency reserves that has allowed the deficit to persist without more significant dollar depreciation. As US indebtedness grows, so does the risk that its creditors' appetite for dollar assets wanes or they at least require a higher return. The dollar has already proved sensitive to suggestions that South Korea might diversify the currencies in which it holds its foreign exchange reserves. In Mr Buffett's words, US "spendthrift behaviour won't be tolerated indefinitely".How many know what it is like to be a sharecropper?In ChristJeff

rookie Mar 8, 2005

Just a thought....If we become a nation of sharecroppers, it might be that we again would begin to cry out to our Lord, just like Israel did many times in Scripture. In ChristJeff

Rahman Mar 8, 2005

Brother Jeff ...Sharecropper sounds kind ... What i see is America becoming a nation of dustbowlers, far worse than these images from the 1930's ... Photographs of the Great Depressionhttp://history1900s.miningco.com/library/photos/blyindexdepression.htmDust Bowl Web Questhttp://home.centurytel.net/mr-h/dustbowl/resources.html... and the phrase "crying out" does not do justice to what over pampered, over satiated, soft modern day American's will be doing ... Ugly, ugly times ahead ... The Refiner's fire ... CAUSE:Joel.1[4] That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.[5] Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.[7] He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.[9] The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD's ministers, mourn.[10] The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.[11] for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.[12] The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.[16] Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?[17] The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.[18] How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.[20] The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.EFFECT:[8] Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.[11] Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers [13] Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.[14] Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,[15] Alas for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.[19] O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.This is what Joel says that happens when God's people abuse His long suffering kindness as weakness, or worse yet come to not even really believing in Him anymore ... Very sobering if one is a true BELIEVER ... Bless God that i have no fear concerning this whatsoever, but praise Him that He would even extend His terrible grace to we the American Church part of His Bride to bringing us to Himself in purity without spot or blemish ... Amen

Rahman Mar 9, 2005

Brother Jeff,i think this info is important enough to repeat in that many saints read this thread ...As strange and as difficult as this may be able to be percieved since the deregulation of God out of the American society in the 60's, His influence over the ethics and morality of the subsequent Godless generations of younger business movers and shakers is only becoming horribly evident now in all of the corporate/Wall Street scandals that are coming to light since the S&L's some 20 yeras ago ... American business now is pretty much in the hands of a bunch of greedy, lying, scheming parasites who will do whatever it takes to get rich, stay rich, and keep afloat this debt servicing so called economy that they/we've trapped ourselves in ... It's all one huge bubble that's desperately attempting to stay clear of anything that will make it POP! ... Do you know what makes me not cheat my fellow man ... FEAR OF GOD, instilled in me as a child! ... Very wicked things occur without fear of God ... I'm sure that those of you who have an understanding of what this post is about, know that the S&L's seem like small potatoes in light of the recent discovered shenanigans of Enron, World Com and Fannie and Freddie. "In the first years of the Bush administration, some of America’s most prominent corporate executives cashed out billions of dollars in stock and stock options before driving their companies to ruin through fraud and bankruptcy. In their wake they left a tangle of lost jobs, depleted pensions, and shattered lives". He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church, "America is about to take one huge tumble" ... My question is, "Will you tumble with her?My advice to any sinner, or backslidden saint, is to REPENT & GET RIGHT WITH GOD RIGHT NOW! ... For it is He, and He alone, that will be the only One capable of supplying your needs thru this time of the Refiner's fire ...Pss.9[10] And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.Pss.37[25] I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.America's economy has been sustained on the floatsom of magically providing credit and repackaging, selling and then re-servicing that newer debt, which even if you can't comprehend the depth of intricasies of what this means, it simply means that say America suffers a devestating earthquake in the right place (primarily NY and/or LA), or another devestating terrorist attack in downtown Manhattan, and that causes major defaults in debt repayments, it will cause a domino effect in that our entire economy is based on every other bank owing every other bank, with no banks holding enough reserve cash anymore in case of a panicked public making a run on any bank to get their deposits out ... Do you know why this will happen, because your precious money is not sitting in the bank, it's all loaned out to a now irresponsible, unregulated big business class who's doing all sorts of immoral and unethical dealings with it that prior to the go-go 80's would have sent them straight to jail and public humiliation ... Not anymore ... America's precarious economy now is basically based on a non stop shuffling of debt payments, interrupt that shuffle and economic chaos will insue ... The following Audio interview will give you some indication of what i'm saying ...Nomi Prins, Author"Other People's Money: The Corporate Mugging of Americahttp://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2005/Prins.htmlAnd if your hope and trust is in so called Social Security take a listen to this, and then place your trust into His Everlasting Arm Security ...February 5Select an Audio FormatReal Player l WinAmp l Windows Media l mp3http://www.financialsense.com/fsn/2005.htmlSocial Security - Trust Fund or Ponzi?Market Anomalies - The Approaching StormThe Gathering StormFinancial Sense NewshourSpecial Roundtable - AMERICA IN CHAOShttp://www.financialsense.com/Experts/roundtable/021905.htmlListening to these exposes reminded me of these scriptures ..."Forasmuch therefore as your treading is upon the poor, and ye take from him burdens of wheat: ye have built houses of hewn stone, but ye shall not dwell in them; ye have planted pleasant vineyards, but ye shall not drink wine of them. For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right" ... Amos.5:11,12"Shall I count them pure with the wicked balances, and with the bag of deceitful weights? For the rich men thereof are full of violence, and the inhabitants thereof have spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth" ... Mic.6: 12,13"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation. There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain. And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken. The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully. And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD ... Ezek.22: 6-31

rookie Mar 11, 2005

Trade Deficit Hits $58.3B in Jan. on Imports of Consumer Goods and Cars; 2nd Highest Level Ever WASHINGTON (AP) -- The U.S. trade deficit climbed to $58.3 billion in January, the second-highest level in history, as Americans' appetite for foreign consumer products and automobiles hit record highs. The deficit with China was pushed higher by a surge in textile shipments, reflecting the end of global quota. The Commerce Department reported Friday that the January trade gap was 4.5 percent higher than December's $55.7 billion deficit and was just below the all-time high monthly deficit of $59.4 billion, recorded in November.For all of last year, the U.S. trade gap surged by 24.3 percent to $617.1 billion, setting a record for the third straight year. Analysts believe that 2005 will also set a record, reflecting higher prices for imported oil and continued heavy demand by U.S. consumers for all things foreign.....The great whore of Babylon one day will fall. On that day the merchants of the world will weep. Could it be that mammon is worshiped by the world during the final days?What will happen to a world that bases all it's trust, all it's value, all it's hope in the U.S. dollar and for that matter, all currencies of the world? In ChristJeff

rookie Mar 11, 2005

The exaultation of man as God in the form of Nazism is still alive.Article from BBCGermany beefs up anti-Nazi laws NPD march in Dresden: Support surged in SaxonyGermany's parliament has tightened restrictions on neo-Nazi marches to keep them away from sensitive memorials such as former concentration camps. The changes make it easier for local authorities to ban such gatherings. The new curbs target a planned march by the far right National Democratic Party (NPD) at Berlin's Brandenburg Gate, near a new Holocaust memorial. The 8 May march would coincide with the 60th anniversary of Germany's capitulation in World War II. Germany's upper house of parliament still has to approve the changes. But the government says it is determined to get them in place in time to prevent neo-Nazi demonstrations overshadowing the official May ceremonies marking the 60th anniversary. Support for NPD Last month, thousands of neo-Nazis marched through Dresden on the 60th anniversary of the allied bombing of the city. It was one of the biggest far-right demonstrations in Germany's post-war history. Last year the NPD won 9% of the vote in Saxony, giving it seats in a German state assembly for the first time since 1968. Germany already has laws to restrict neo-Nazi propaganda and Nazi symbols are banned. On Thursday, Germany's highest court upheld a ruling that a neo-Nazi rock band was a criminal organisation whose songs spread racial hatred. The German Constitutional Court rejected an appeal by the band's former lead singer, Michael Regener, against his three-year prison sentence. Two years ago a Berlin court found the rock group Landser - meaning "foot soldiers" - guilty of spreading hatred of Jewish people and foreigners in Germany. Landser's CDs included The Reich Will Rise Again and Get The Enemy. End of article......In the 1930's Germany experienced hyper-inflation which destroyed the social fabric of the nation. Fear allowed Hitler and the Nazi dogma to take hold in that generation. The seeds are still alive in this generation.In ChristJeff

rookie Mar 13, 2005

I read this article in the Bakersfield Californian today, here are protions of the ariticle.OBJECTIVITY OR PROPAGANDA? IN BUSH ADMINISTRATION THE LINE GETS BLURRIERBy David Barstow and Robin Stein, NY Times News ServiceIt is the kind of TV new coverage every president covets. “Thank you, Bush. Thank you, USA, “ a jubilant Iraqi-American told a camera crew in Kansas City for a segment about reaction to the fall of Baghdad. A second report told of “another success” in the Bush administration’s drive to strengthen aviation security”; the reporter called it “one of the most remarkable campaign in aviation history.” A third segment, broadcast in January, described the administration’s determination to open markets for American farmers. To viewers, each report looked like any other 90 second segment on the local news. In fact, the federal government produced all three. The report from Kansas City was made by State Department. The “reporter” covering airport safety was actually a public-relations professional working under a false name for the Transportation Security Administration. The farming segment was done by the Agriculture Department’s office of communication. Under the Bush administration, the federal government has aggressively used a well-established tool of public relations: the prepackaged, ready-to-serve news report that major corporations have long distributed to TV stations to pitch everything from headache remedies to auto insurance…..This winter, Washington has been roiled by revelations that a handful of columnists wrote in support of administration policies without disclosing they had accepted payments from the government. But the administration’s efforts to generate positive news coverage have been considerably more pervasive than previously known….An examination of government-produced news reports offers a look inside a world where the traditional lines between public relations and journalism have become tangled, where local anchors introduce prepackaged segments with “suggested” lead-ins written by public relations experts. It is a world where government-produced reports disappear into a maze of satellite transmissions, Web portals, syndicated news programs and network feeds, only to emerge cleansed on the other side as “independent” journalism…..A recent study by congressional Democrats offers another rough indicator; The Bush Administration spent $254 million in its first term on public relations contracts, nearly double what the last Clinton Administration spent….Here is a portion of an history found in a Time-Life Books, THE NEW ORDER. This book covers events that took place in Nazi Germany in the 1930’s. Page 57“Goebbels was rewarded for good service on March 13, 1933, six weeks after Hitler had become chancellor. He was appointed to Hitler’s cabinet in the new position of minister of popular enlightenment and propaganda. The ministry consolidated functions formerly scattered in a half-dozen government agencies, and it assumed sweeping new powers. By decree, Goebbels was to be responsible “for all influences on the intellectual life of the nation; for public relations for state, culture, and the economy; and for the administration of all the institutions serving these purposes.” Eccl. 1:8 \tAll things are full of labor;\tMan cannot express it.\tThe eye is not satisfied with seeing,\tNor the ear filled with hearing. 9 \tThat which has been is what will be,\tThat which is done is what will be done,\tAnd there is nothing new under the sun. 10 \tIs there anything of which it may be said,\t“See, this is new”?\tIt has already been in ancient times before us. 11 \tThere is no remembrance of former things,\tNor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come\tBy those who will come after. In ChristJeff

rookie Mar 14, 2005

I read this in the Bakersfield Californian today, March 14.The article speaks of similiar types of "public relations" activity here in California.SCHWARZENEGGER AIDES DEFEND DISTRIBUTION OF "VIDEO NEWS RELEASES"By Beth Fouhy AP Political WriterSaturated as he is in the ways of Hollywood, it's no surprise that Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger know better than most politicians how to fashion an image for television cameras. But the recent disclosure that several state agencies have distributed video news releases masquerading as TV news reports have led Democrats to cry foul and news directors to re-examine their policies about airing such material. Schwarzenegger aides have acknowledged using state money to produce "video news releases," or VNRs, that cast an entirely favorable light on some of the administration's most controversial policies.They have been used to advocate proposed regulatory changes, like modifying lunch break rules for workers and easing a new law requiring more nurses in California hospitals. And one video was produced to help sell a key aspect of Schwarzenegger's policital agenda; to pay teachers by merit instead of tenure, and to make it harder for teachers to get tenure. The videos resemble local television news stories, complete with a suggested script for anchors to read as a lead-in to the pieces. They're distributed via satellite for TV stations to broadcast as they wish. Video news releases have been used for years by private industries, like pharmaceutical companies, to promote their products. They are routinely sent to television newrooms around the country and often provide useful video images, or "B-roll," to help illustrate the story. But most TV stations have strict rules governing the use of VNRs, such as clearly labeling the source of the material when it appears on the air....Earlier in this thread I covered the development of propaganda as a "mind science" that was developed during the time of Nazi Germany. The influences of that time are still alive today. In this article what is the underlying motive for VRNs? Is it about helping people or making money?In ChristJeff

rookie Mar 14, 2005

Br. Rahman, I was reading in Ecclesiastes yesterday and this Scripture brought you to mind.Ecc. 1:18 \tFor in much wisdom is much grief,\tAnd he who increases knowledge increases sorrow. In ChristJeff

rookie Mar 14, 2005

Here is an article found on CNN. 100 alleged members of the violent Honduran street gang MS-13 have been arrested in a nationwide sweep, authorities said Monday.Using information from local and state law enforcement agencies, federal agents charged 103 members of the Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, gang with a range of criminal and immigration charges.The arrests came in the New York, Washington, Los Angeles, Baltimore, Newark, Miami and Dallas metropolitan areas over the last several weeks.Officials said MS-13 is one of the largest and most violent street gangs in the United States, and the majority of its members are in the country illegally. The gang has carried out beheadings and grenade attacks in Central America and is known to hack their enemies with machetes in cities along the East Coast in the United States.The arrests are the result of a new "Operation Community Shield" nationwide sting by the U.S. Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement to target violent gangs."By bringing the full range of ICE's immigration and customs authorities in the fight against violent street gangs, we can take hundreds of gang members off the streets and have a significant impact on community safety," said Homeland Security Assistant Secretary Michael Garcia, who is director of the ICE bureau.Half of the alleged gang members have prior arrests or convictions for violent crimes, including murder, sodomy, assault, arson and weapons and drug possession, officials said.In one example, on March 13 agents arrested a man who acknowledged he is a founding member and leader of the MS-13 cell in Hollywood, officials said. The man, who was charged with immigration violations, was previously convicted in the United States for robbery, possession of a dangerous weapon and mail theft.Authorities also arrested the purported leader of the MS-13 cell in Long Branch, New Jersey on March 10. The suspect has a criminal rap sheet that includes charges of arson, weapons possession and grand larceny, officials said. He was also arrested on immigration charges.Last month, former Homeland Security Deputy Secretary James Loy called MS-13 an emerging threat to the United States, referring to the gang and the al Qaeda terrorist organization in the same breath in testimony to Congress. Besides al Qaeda, Loy said, "We are seeing the emergence of other threatening groups and gangs like MS-13 that will also be destabilizing influences."Officials arrested 30 alleged gang members in the New York metropolitan area, the most of any of the seven cities targeted. Twenty-five were arrested in Washington, 17 in Los Angeles, and 10 each in the Baltimore, Newark and Miami areas. The last arrest came in Dallas, officials said.Matt. 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. In ChristJeff

Rahman Mar 14, 2005

Brother Jeff, you quoted:Ecc. 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief,And he who increases knowledge increases sorrow. Ha! ... ha! ... brother Jeff that scripture reminds me also a lot of you ... i've often thought in reading this thread this brother and i of are like mind/spirit/calling ...i love knowledge, always have, just not any ole kind tho ... i'm analytical by God's design and am extremely inquisitive, but not by what most in my peer group finds fascinating ... i find God to be the most fascinating subject of inquiry period ... He's the only subject who's promises that if we diligently call unto/seek Him, that He'll answer us and tell us more and more and more things that we didn't know before ... i'm most joyous and at peace when i'm in that Holy of Holies place with God, and i'm not wearing a rope because i don't want nobody on the outer side pulling me out! ... '0) i was reading a book last week that asked me "What is your greatest gift" ... i couldn't for the life of me pin it down so i asked Holy Spirit to tell me ... True to form as usual just the other day, out of the clear blue, He said to me, "Your greatest gift is your ability to talk to and about God" ... That kinda blew me away because when i'm talking to, or about God it's hard to shut me up, other than that i tend to revert back to my more reserved, contemplative, quieter self ... But truly what i concider my greatest treasure is that He answers back ... It's impossible for any saint to diligently seek communion with the all knowing, and all wise Creator, and not have some of it rub off ... And yeah what you learn can cause grief, and increase sorrow, that for me soon pales in the glow of all the blessings of attaining His knowledge, and wisdom ... There are so many life sustaining "wisdom" and "knowledge" perks listed in Proverbs for those saints that indure a little more grief and sorrow to be in His know, here i've just included a few ...Wisdom:Prov.2[1] My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;[2] So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;[3] Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;[4] If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;[5] Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.[6] For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.[7] He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.[8] He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.[9] Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.[10] When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;[11] Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:[12] To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward thingsProv.3[13] Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.[14] For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.[15] She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.[16] Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.[17] Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.[18] She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.[21] My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:[22] So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck.[23] Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.[24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.[25] Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.[26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.Knowledge:Prov.9[10] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.Prov.20[15] There is gold, and a multitude of rubies: but the lips of knowledge are a precious jewel.Holy Spirit is doing something so beautiful, and so miraculous in my spirit these days that i can't even begin to put it into words ... But i especially pray the same anointing on you brother Jeff, and each and every other saint who longs to possess the "knowledge" and "wisdom" of our Jesus ... Amen

rookie Mar 15, 2005

This morning I saw a 90 second news release covering the state of religion in the U.K. It stated that only 5% of the population attend church regularly. It then reported that in Manchester England, merchandise stores are having pastors from various backgrounds come into the stores as part of a service that they offer to the consumer. The story also noted that these stores were trying to recruit local Islamic leaders too. Is this an acurate description of the state of Christianity in England today or is it propaganda?In ChristJeff

rookie Mar 16, 2005

Associated Press Trade Deficit at All-Time High of $665.9BWednesday March 16, 11:17 am ET By Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer U.S. Trade Deficit Hits All-Time High of $665.9 Billion in 2004, Commerce Dept. Reports WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States deficit in the broadest measure of international trade soared to an all-time high of $665.9 billion in 2004, showing in stark terms the speed with which the country is becoming indebted to the rest of the world. The Commerce Department reported Wednesday that the shortfall in the current account was 25.5 percent higher than the previous record, the $530.7 billion deficit set in 2003. The department also noted that the deficit was worsening as the year ended with the shortfall in the fourth quarter hitting a record $187.9 billion, up 13.3 percent from the third quarter deficit.The Bush administration contends the soaring trade deficits reflect a U.S. economy that is growing faster than the rest of the world, pushing up imports and dampening demand for U.S. exports. But private economists are worried that the huge level of resources being transferred into the hands of foreigners will eventually result in lower U.S. living standards."Matt. 24:32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.How long will this nation choose to be blind?In ChristJeff

Rahman Mar 16, 2005

Brother Jeff,And the debt goes on ...i'm just finishing up a book entitled "The Coming Crash in the Housing Market" which breaks down how leveraged out all the main players are in the effort to keep America's precarious Economy functioning on "debt" by extending mad credit to the most "sub-prime" of borrowers, to say nothing of all the deregulation from sane business practices, and the smoke and mirrors games contrived to say on paper that one can in fact afford a house that common sense says otherwise ... Anyway the main players are ...1 - Banks (who initially loan the $$$)2- Private Mortgage Insurance Companies (Who because hardly anyone puts down 20% of their own cash anymore, underwrite responsibility for reimbursement to the lender of the mortgage debt in case of default - Responsible for $750 billion dollars in mortgage loan defaults)3 - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (Who buy up mortgage debt repackage them into derivatives and somehow sell them, a great deal to Mutual Funds, Pension Plans, and any other large group of bundled investment monies where such participants are average Joe Public's who haven't a clue ... These two combined entities hold $3 trillion dollars in outstanding mortgage loan debt)But the real Achilles heel out of the three are the PMI's ... There are currently in America 5 small PMI companies with a combined total asset of 11 billion dollars, out on the limb for a combined $530 billion dollars in promise to mortgage default ... This may have been a reasonable gamble 50 years ago in America, but with the dire straits that out economy is in now it's just a matter of God's grace before it begins a domino effect ...When you posted the Ecc. 1:18 the other day i was so glad that you did because it gave me this scripture to relay to others why i don't have a fear in the world about what's coming ...Prov.2[23] Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.[24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.[25] Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.[26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.What a Mighty God we serve! ... Amen

rookie Mar 20, 2005

U.S. REPORTEDLY MISLED ALLIES ABOUT TRANSFERPakistan, not North Korea, sold nuclear material to Libya, intelligence showsBy Dafna LinzerThe Washington PostIn an effort to increase pressure on North Korea, the Bush Administration told its Asian allies in briefings earlier this year that Pyongyang had exported nuclear material to Libya. That was a significant new charge, the first allegation that North Korea was helping to create a new nuclear weapon state. But that is not what U.S. intelligence reported, according to two officials with detailed knowledge of the transaction. North Korea, according to intelligence had supplied uranium hexafluoride-which can be enriched to weapon-grade uranium—to Pakistan. It was Pakistan, a key U. S. ally with its own nuclear arsenal, that sold the material to Libya. The U.S. government had no evidence, the officials said, that North Korea knew of the second transaction.Pakistan’s role as both the buyer and the seller was concealed to cover up the part played by Washington’s partner in the hunt for al-Qaida leaders, according to the officials, who discussed the issue on the condition of anonymity. In addition, a North Korea-Pakistan transfer would not have been news to the U.S. allies, which have known of such transfers for years and viewed them as a business matter between sovereign states. The Bush administration’s approach, intended to isolate North Korea, instead left allies increasingly doubtful as they began to learn that the briefings omitted essential details about the transaction, U.S. officials and foreign diplomats said interviews. North Korea responded to public reports last month about the briefings by withdrawing for talks with its neighbors and the United States……Do you remember last month when all we were told is that North Korea behaves as a rogue nation and that they are a threat to the free world. My question is, why do our leaders lie? What is their real motive for such actions? Psa. 101:7 \tHe who works deceit shall not dwell within my house;\tHe who tells lies shall not continue in my presence. In ChristJeff

rookie Mar 22, 2005

Vice President Dick Cheney visited Bakersfield yesterday, listen for the theme of this observation.BAKERSFIELD CALIFORNIANRobert Price Staff Columnist Tuesday March 22, 2005CHURNING OUT PROPAGANDA, TEXAS-STYLEWas it just five years and two presidential campaigns ago that George W. Bush was so prolifically mangling English syntax? Or was that some previous White House resident?I ask because the once-parodied president is building a Ronald Reagan-like rep these days, and not just in the ideological sense.This Great Communicator (West Texas version) doesn’t have Reagan’s oratorical gifts, but he makes up in resource mobilization what he lacks in enunciation.We got a taste of that Monday when Vice President Dick Cheney was dispatched to Bakersfield to pitch Bush’s Social Security privatization plan.In a meticulously choreographed infomercial, Cheney—accompanied by Bakersfield Congressman Bill Thomas—hosted a “town hall meeting” at Cal State Bakersfield that was more like town hall theater. It lacked the two key attributes that tend to characterize the real thing: access and spontaneity.In order to attend, townfolk first needed to land on somebody’s guest list. And, if history is an indication, the people passing out the invitations were interested in giving the vice president the kind of reception that would best serve his purpose; a crowd willing to supply it’s-all-good sound bites for the evening news.(A couple of dissenters obtained tickets anyway and briefly interrupted Cheney’s Q-and-A-modeled presentation. Ah, the hazards of going live.)Cheney called on seven people who raised their hands with questions, and six were conveniently seated on or near an aisle. The microphone-holders located them instantly, and the questions were uniformly positive, on point and clearly stated.Were they a true cross-section of Americans with realistic range of Social Security concerns? Hardly.Nationally, only 33 percent approve of the president’s handling of Social Security, according to the latest Newsweek poll; 59 percent disapprove. More people trust the Democrats (44 percent) on the issue than trust Bush (33 percent.) But the president had a 99 percent approval rating Monday in the Icardo Room at CSUB.Give Bush this much: His White House manipulates the media as well as any administration ever has.Two Bakersfield TV stations broadcast all or part of Cheney’s appearance live, and all four English-language stations that have newscasts topped their evening shows with his appearance. It was probably much the same Monday in Tuscon, where Bush himself was making the same Social Security pitch. Nothing surprising about that. Republican and Democratic presidents alike have always commanded the camera’s attention.But this administration seems to take things a step further. Whether it’s allowing idealogue reporters with laughably inadequate credentials into the White House press briefing room, or paying sympathetic newspaper columnists on the QT to promote Bush’s education agenda, or hiring faux reporters to produce one-sided “news stories” that TV stations can and do broadcast as straight news, this White House plays by a different set of rules. It is called propaganda.And to think, A recent Knight Foundation survey tells us that one in three teens believes the government ought to be able to approve newspaper stories prior to publication…”Did you see that last thought? In the 1930’s Hitler and Goebbels brought about that very circumstance. This fact already exists in nations like China. Do you see the growing tide?In ChristJeff

Rahman Mar 22, 2005

What's that old adage? ..."Tough Times Call for Tough Measures" ..."Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a Pagan Ethos"http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2002/Kaplan.htmWe ain't seen nuthin yet!

rookie Mar 22, 2005

Br. Rahman,Have you read the book?In ChristJeff

Rahman Mar 23, 2005

Brother Jeff,No i haven't ... But the interview is pretty insightful in itself ... No one in America other than the Neo-Cons themselves seem to understand their agenda ... But all the major players outside the dummied down American general public sure do ... What stuck out to me in the interview was that the author said that in light of what the Bush Administration knows regarding the increasingly precarious economic precipice our nation is teetering on, they're going into Iraq was exactly what a "realist" political leadership would have do ... He said that the Bush administration just shouldn't be so cocky about it ... But hey, that's Texas ...The major difference i see between what the Democrats would have done in juxtaposition to what the Neo-Cons have done, is that America would have been dwindled down slowly as a second rate power with a lot of nuclear weapons ... Whereas the Neo-Cons have a lot more pride than that, believe that God (at least i believe George Bush does) is on their side, and so have a right to use America's might to insure that America controls the middle east ... For who does so controls the oil ... With the Neo-Con's it'a all, or nothing at all ... Iraq is their last throw of the dice in their bid to stay the preimminent global economic power, but the numbers tell the informed that it's even now all over but the shouting ... Some how i think America's gotten some kind of divine stay of execution with Bush in office, even tho it seems so many American's hate him ... Folk think it's bad now but i shudder to think what an extremely liberal agenda would have brought already on this country that we haven't gotten yet ... To me, no matter which way you cut it, America's in for a long overdue reckoning ... Praise Him that if one diligently has their spiritual ears cocked to His whisperings, and is ever on the wall watching, one won't be disappointed of His early warning ... When you see these things start to occur ...i'm looking to the hills ... you know the rest dear brother ... Amen

rookie Mar 24, 2005

Here is a different perspective on what is going on in the world.By Dr. Elias Akleh *Republished from Amin.orgWhen Iran sells oil in euros, the dollar suffersIran does not pose a threat to the United State because of its nuclear projects, its WMD, or its support to “terrorists organizations” as the American administration is claiming, but in its attempt to re-shape the global economical system by converting it from a petrodollar to a petroeuro system. Such conversion is looked upon as a flagrant declaration of economical war against the US that would flatten the revenues of the American corporations and eventually might cause an economic collapse. In June of 2004 Iran declared its intention of setting up an international oil exchange (a bourse) denominated in the Euro currency. Many oil-producing as well as oil-consuming countries had expressed their welcome to such petroeuro bourse. The Iranian reports had stated that this bourse may start its trade with the beginning of 2006. Naturally such an oil bourse would compete against London’s International Petroleum Exchange (IPE), as well as against the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX), both owned by American corporations. Oil consuming countries have no choice but use the American Dollar to purchase their oil, since the Dollar has been so far the global standard monetary fund for oil exchange. This necessitates these countries to keep the Dollar in their central banks as their reserve fund, thus strengthening the American economy. But if Iran – followed by the other oil-producing countries – offered to accept the Euro as another choice for oil exchange the American economy would suffer a real crisis. We could witness this crisis at the end of 2005 and beginning of 2006 when oil investors would have the choice to pay $57 a barrel of oil at the American (NYMEX) and at London’s (IPE), or pay 37 Euros a barrel at the Iranian oil bourse. Such choice would reduce trade volumes at both the Dollar-dependent (NYMEX) and the (IPE). Many countries had studied the conversion from the ever weakening petrodollar to the gradually strengthening petroeuro system. The de-valuation of the Dollar was caused by the American economy shying away from manufacturing local products – except those of the military -, by outsourcing the American jobs to the cheaper third world countries and depending only on the general service sector, and by the huge cost of two major wars that are still going on. Foreign investors started withdrawing their money from the shaky American market causing further devaluation of the Dollar. The keen observer of the money market could have noticed that the devaluation of the American Dollar had started since November 2002, while the purchasing power of European Euro had crept upward to reach nowadays to $1.34. Compared to the Japanese Yen the Dollar had dropped from 104.45 to 103.90 yen. The British pound climbed another notch from $1.9122 to $1.9272. Economic reports published at the beginning of this month (March) had pointed towards the deep dive of the American economy and to the quick rise of the deficit up to $665.90 billion at the end of 2004. The worst is still to come. These numbers worried the international banks, who had sent some warnings to the Bush administration. In its economical war Iran is treading the same path Saddam Hussein had started when he, in 2000, converted all his reserve from the Dollar to the Euro, and demanded payments in Euro for Iraqi oil. Many economists then mocked Saddam because he had lost a lot of money in this conversion. Yet they were very surprised when he recuperated his losses within less than a year period due to the valuation of the Euro. The American administration became aware of the threat when central banks of many countries started keeping Euros along side of Dollars as their monetary reserve and as an exchange fund for oil (Russian and Chinese central banks in 2003). To avoid economical collapse the Bush administration hastened to invade and to destroy Iraq under false excuses to make it an example to any country who may contemplate dropping the Dollar, and to manipulate OPEC’s decisions by controlling the second largest oil resource. Iraqi oil sale was reverted back to the petrodollar standard.There is only one technical obstacle concerning the use of a euro-based oil exchange system, which is the lack of a euro-denominated oil pricing standard, or oil ‘marker’ as it is referred to in the industry. The three current oil markers are U.S. dollar denominated, which include the West Texas Intermediate crude (WTI), Norway Brent crude, and the UAE Dubai crude. Yet this did not stop Iran from requiring payments in the euro currency for its European and Asian oil exports since spring 2003. Iran’s determination in using the petroeuro is inviting in other countries such as Russia and Latin American countries, and even some Saudi investors especially after the Saudi/American relations have weakened lately. This determination had also invited an aggressive American political campaign using the same excuses used against Iraq: WMD in the form of nuclear bomb, support to “terrorist” Lebanese Hezbollah organization, and threat to the peace process in the Middle East. The question now is what would the American administration do? Would it invade Iran as it did Iraq? The American troops are knee-deep in the Iraqi swamp. The global community – except for Britain and Italy- is not offering any military relief to the US. Thus an American strike against Iran is very unlikely. Iran is not Iraq; it has a more robust military power. Iran has anti-ship missiles based in “Abu Mousa” island that controls the strait of Hermuz at the entrance of the Persian Gulf. Iran could easily close the strait thus blocking all naval traffic carrying gulf oil to the rest of the world causing a global oil crisis. The price of an oil barrel could reach up to $100. The US could not topple the regime by spreading chaos the same way it did to Mussadaq’s regime in 1953 since Iranians are aware of such a trick. Besides Iranians have a patriotic pride of what they call “their bomb”................."During the late 1930's Germany was suffering from the economic collapse of it's currency. Remember the pictures we have all seen of a German citizen pushing a wheel barrow full of paper currency? Also, do you remember the military tactic of what Germany called the 'blitzkrieg." Germany would pour over the border of neighboring countries in lightning like fashion. One of the results of such tactics is that the banking systems of each country did not have time to move it's gold bullion out of harms way. Hitler invaded each country with the same intensity. He needed real gold to finance his ambitious goals. Now we may be a country in need of "black gold."In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Mar 25, 2005

Do you remember last month when all we were told is that North Korea behaves as a rogue nation and that they are a threat to the free world. My question is, why do our leaders lie? What is their real motive for such actions? you knew from the beginning that bush was full of it when he was drumming up war support for iraq. Saddam had gotten into it with bush senior and there is no way he wanted any more from the U.S. Bush had it in his heart to go to war no matter what. He got his wish and many people killed coz of it. it's what 1500 troops now (I don't even keep track any more) However we never hear of any civillian casualties...I wonder why...the estimates are up to about 100k or so. But of course they are Iraqi so they don't count...this whole Iraq thing was to make money. There was no threat from there of any kind. I mean it has now come out that there were no weapons to be found, no evidence tying saddam to 911 or osama. We were lied to. See one of 2 things happened and neither option is good, either bush lied to us (leaning toward this myself) or he was lied to by intelligence which is bad...Haliburton stocks have doubled in the last year...any guesses as to why?

Rahman Mar 27, 2005

Ahhhhhhhh brother Jeff ...The gist of the Neo-Con's War in Iraq ...You wrote:"In its economical war Iran is treading the same path Saddam Hussein had started when he, in 2000, converted all his reserve from the Dollar to the Euro, and demanded payments in Euro for Iraqi oil. Many economists then mocked Saddam because he had lost a lot of money in this conversion. Yet they were very surprised when he recuperated his losses within less than a year period due to the valuation of the Euro. The American administration became aware of the threat when central banks of many countries started keeping Euros along side of Dollars as their monetary reserve and as an exchange fund for oil (Russian and Chinese central banks in 2003). To avoid economical collapse the Bush administration hastened to invade and to destroy Iraq under false excuses to make it an example to any country who may contemplate dropping the Dollar, and to manipulate OPEC’s decisions by controlling the second largest oil resource. Iraqi oil sale was reverted back to the petrodollar standard".When this was first reported some time back it completely went over most folks head ... When i heard it an alarm bell went off in my head ... This also is one of the benefits that far outweigh the rejections of being a "watchman" ... America has become a drowning man grasping at straws ... Our present (NEO-CON) administration knows it but just how long do you think it'll take for the American people (including so many saints) to realize this ... Bank runs maybe ...

Rahman Mar 27, 2005

Ironman you wrote;"this whole Iraq thing was to make money. There was no threat from there of any kind". Please go back and read brother Jeff's post regarding Iran pushing for "petro-euro's" at the discontinuation of "petro-dollar's" and that Iraq/Sadaam was the first to do so ... America's initial excursion into Iraq was not to make money but to attempt to stop an even faster destabilization of our economy via the ouster of the petro-dollar ...That's the real threat, and thru the outing of the underhanded shenanigans of the UN/Iraqi Oil for Food program, now the rest of OPEC, particularly Iran, is very well aware of America's economic weakness ... Iran smells the bleeding of America ... Somehow i don't think that Sadaam was savy enough as an investor to see that his hording his wealth in Euro's at the time of the UN fiasco with him of selling limited oil for the benefit of his people, but was due to the fact that all the crooked European countries knew that to do so would leave no money trail that the US could track while it was going on ... Of course it was found out after the fact by the US, but in the interim prior to the US invasion of Iraq our Trade Deficit had grown in leaps and bounds and Sadaam's Euro's increased in worth with the demise of our dollar ... What i think has happened since then is that Iran has stumbled across this legal weapon of mass destruction aimed at America, that being firing a symbolic nuke into our economy called switching the currency of oil trading from dollars to euro's, which is what the Euro Union wants in the first place ... The Bush administration is fighting by any means necessary for the continued preimminence of America as the #1 world economic power, but the sad fact of the matter is that we are no longer due to our unprecedented greed, overexpenditure, and astronomical debt both governmentally and private sector ... America's economy is soon to mimic the World Trades, but i wonder if the planet has also taken under concideration what they're gonna do with all the excess products that the #1 consumers in all the world will no longer be able to afford? ...

IRONMAN Mar 31, 2005

Rahmanoooohhhhhh....this is crazy...this switching of currency could be a bit of a problem...if opec succeeds on doing so, gas prices will increase again for us since we have a weaker unit right?

Rahman Mar 31, 2005

Ironman you wrote;"oooohhhhhh....this is crazy"...That's how it's gonna appear to most who are taken by surprise, and most (including saints) are gonna be taken by surprise ... What's about to transpire with America's economy is both her wages of sin for her materialistic idolotry and the prophetic voice of God in relation to the rising Euro Union in fulfilment of it becoming the seat of anti-christ in wresting control of ALL buying and selling at some point in the future ... The Euro Union (revived Roman Empire) is the up and coming final world power (economical) of the amalgamated feet of iron/clay and the ten toes in the book of Daniel ...You continued;"this switching of currency could be a bit of a problem...if opec succeeds on doing so, gas prices will increase again for us since we have a weaker unit right"?Not only gas prices ... Prices on everything will rise ... Case in point i heard the other day that it takes 80 barrels of oil to raise one beef cow in America ... Oil derivative are in so many manufactured goods ... i read in the WSJ that rising oil prices are increasing costs to everything from plastics to shoes ... If America was as dependent on Jesus as she was oil we wouldn't even be having this discussion ... OPEC is in fact losing money on every barrel of oil it sells under our deflated (the word that strikes terror in the heart of The Fed) dollar, and would stand to gain much more value in the currency of Euro's ... America's economy is shot! ... To place a pun America is now sitting between "Iraq and a hard place" starring at either allowed deflation (the tough pill of massive downturn market correction) to come, or hyper inflation (printing so much paper that it'll take $20. to buy a cup of coffee) in attemps to keeping the boat afloat ... This nation both governmentally and private sector are leveraged beyond most folks comprehension of what our "debt" actually is ... In a 100 years span America has went from the largest (ever) lending/manufacturingnation to now the largest (ever) borrowing/consumer nation of which the past 50 years of decline can be marked by her regressive dismissal/disrespect of God ... i can certainly understand why the heathen may not want to hear this, and i don't want to understand why so many saved folk don't want to hear this, but i do ... i call it "the Lot's wife syndrome" ... Ironman as you know our Lord has used me for the past 20 years in my current assignment, most vigorously in these last three years ... Since about May of 2004, when i heard our Lord say to me, "Rahman cease, for you have done all that i require of you in this season/place", i have cried out to our Lord that i felt like i was in a box, imprisoned, at which point thru His lesson to me concerning Joseph He let me know that i was, and that i could not be released until He deemed the proper time ...Well the Saturday that you and i were speaking and i said to you that i had to go to a in house prayer service, He gave me a "word" ... i went expecting that "word" because #1 my prayers and #2 a sister called me to tell me about this prayer meeting and that our Lord had told her that His "word" to me would come forth there ... Well bless God here is the "word" He gave me from the mouth of a fellow prophet (brother Ron) i'd never met before ...Jer.40[4] And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains which were upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land is before thee: whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go, thither go.[5] Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go.i did some commentary study on this scriptural passage that just blew my mind ... i've always said that i've never read anywhere in scripture where even thru the direst of circumstances God did not provide for His "spokesman" ... i've read/listened to Jeremiah on a number of occasions but this particular passage never jumped out at me ... Notice that in such a seemingly God forsaken place as Jerusalem and the lands surrounding it after it's Babylonish devestations God provide the captain of the gaurd to give "victuals and a reward" to the prophet ... Man! ... talk about divine provision of needs ...Jeremiah chose to stay in the land of Israel, amongst Israelites most unappreciative of him and his message ... Unlike Jeremiah i've told our Lord i chose to go with the captain of the guard into Babylon, whatever that means, because i can hardly stand to stay anywhere in the vacinity of this lonely place where i've been/am ... i heard Him say, "First to my church, then to the nations" ... i think things are about to get even more interesting in this "new season" of His plan for my life ... All i'm waiting to hear from Him now is "Rahman, let's go"!

rookie Mar 31, 2005

Br. Rahman wrote: i've read/listened to Jeremiah on a number of occasions but this particular passage never jumped out at me .Num. 11:29 Then Moses said to him, “Are you zealous for my sake? Oh, that all the LORD’S people were prophets and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them!” In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Apr 1, 2005

it is all finally coming to pass with or the attention or approval of the world. It's a thing, frightful I might add, that is dreaded by most people. It means the world will not continue as it has and a change from the usual is scary for some. After gas goes up (again) all things will get even more expensive.Lately God has been dealing with me in such a way that I have little concern for provisions in the flesh coz I have learned to expect them but to look for provisions and workings in the spirit. God will hold you up in whatever work He has for you. It is good to hear confirmation of God's provision always.I wonder where the captain of the guard will take you...

Rahman Apr 1, 2005

Brother Jeff ... Amen ...PS - You are in my prayers.

Rahman Apr 1, 2005

Ironman you wrote;"I wonder where the captain of the guard will take you" ...i haven't the slightest idea, all i know about Babylon is that it is the source of "confusion" ... On the definition of Babylon alone what could entail being led straight into the source of "confusion"? ... "Come out of her my people if you don't want to share in the price of her sins"? ... God only knows ...When i got home and went thru the commentary on the "word" that came forth for me i found out that at that point in Jeremiah's life God gave him a free will choice with no judgment from God as to what Jeremiah chose ... Jeremiah apparently had a piece of property in Israel that he could have taken his victuals and reward from the captain of the gaurd to and in essence it seems to me could have become a retired "prophet" ... Jeremiah didn't choose that and neither have i for i'm still to young to be retired and i'd miss the continued type of fellowship with Holy Spirit that my calling affords ... Even tho at times the calling can be exasperating the often times intense personal intimate relationship of walking, talking and hearing from God far out weighs any percieved deficits ...Jeremiah also could choose to stay with the "left behind" folk he prophesied to, who by my estimation never seemed to be able to "get it" as to what Jeremiah's message was ... That's excatly how i've felt in my prior season of service, particularly so in the past 5 years ... Jeremiah chose to stay with Gadeliah, Gadeliah was killed ... Then somehow those remaining left behind hardheads in Israel got Jeremiah into more difficulty by kidnapping him and taking him to Egypt ... Ughhhhh ... God forgive me if my motive is wrong for my choosing to go with the captain of the gaurd to Babylon has much to do with the fact that i'm weary of ministering to folk whose only response seems to be blank stares (but again He's given me a free will choice w/ no strings) ... Bottom line is i don't want to be retired, but i'm tired of the box i've been in for the past 20 years for now it seems so small and confining, so my only logical, reasonable option of continued service and new spiritual adventure is to move on to Babylon ... My thinking is that in Babylon as with Daniel, i will at least have spiritual peers and contemporaries like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego who also "get it" - which is something that i sorely lack at present ... If it were not for SI i'd be totally locked up inside myself as to it's discussion/sharing with fellow saints ... And then also there's is a certain intriguing mystery i feel as to just what being a "spokesman" in Babylon will mean ... Since recieving that "word" last Saturday i've come to see "the Captain of the guard" as Holy Spirit, and that i have nothing to fear in Babylon at all because He Himself has promised to look after me ... i've got my spiritual bags packed, i'm ready to go when He says, and do anticipate the next congregate of believers He assigns me to by the river Chebar ...

IRONMAN Apr 1, 2005

bro Rahman I have 4 words for you, on the road again...this time in a big way. I'll be right there with you bro...i'll give you a buzz this weekend, got to run a few errands tomorrow and sunday but I'll get hold of you though.

rookie Apr 11, 2005

I read this in the Sunday Parade section of the paper."Including estimates for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will spend $527 billion on military expenses this year. In fact, the U.S. spends as much money on its military as all other nations combined."Just a thought.In ChristJeff

rookie Apr 12, 2005

Associated Press Trade Deficit Hits All-Time High in Feb.Tuesday April 12, 11:25 am ET By Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer Trade Deficit Hits All-Time High of $61.04B in Feb., Aggravated by Surging Oil, Textile Imports WASHINGTON (AP) -- The U.S. trade deficit, aggravated by surging imports of oil and textiles, soared to an all-time high of $61.04 billion in February.The Commerce Department said Tuesday that the February imbalance was up 4.3 percent from a $58.5 billion trade gap in January as a small $50 million rise in U.S. exports of goods and services was swamped by a $2.58 billion increase in imports. The surging trade deficit is leading to an increase in protectionist pressures as American textile and clothing manufacturers are lobbying the administration to limit imports of Chinese textile and clothing goods to ward off a flood of products now that global quotas have expired.For February, imports of textiles and clothing from China rose by 9.8 percent even though America's overall trade gap with China actually narrowed to $13.9 billion, down by 9.2 percent from a January deficit of $15.3 billion. The improvement reflected an increase in U.S. exports to China and declines in other import categories outside of textiles.For the first two months of this year, the trade deficit is running at an annual rate of $717.2 billion, a full $100 billion above the record imbalance of $617.1 billion set for all of 2004.There was a time long ago when God had blessed His people Israel. As time went on, they became prideful and began to say that they themselves were responsible for the wealth that surrounded them. They began to steal from the poor. They began to murder those because of envy and covetousness. They laid on their bed at night and thought up evil schemes to take what was not theirs. They did all of this so that they could live in luxury. What do you see in this generation?In ChristJeff

Rahman Apr 12, 2005

Quote;"What do you see in this generation"?Vipers? ... :-(

rookie Apr 13, 2005

Br. Rahman wrote:vipers?There are times in Scripture where the kings and princes have led the people into wickedness. Also there are times where the people have wanted their rulers to pursue wickedness. (ie... Aaron) I believe that the people of this generation are like that which Jesus warned in the end times. These times seem like the times of Noah. We are living for ourselves. Let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die. This generation does not see the hope that is in Christ. We do not live for that hope. We are stumbling against the Rock.In ChristJeff

deltadom Apr 14, 2005

The biggest question I have asked if the days are getting evil is Jesus going to be with us more strongly and what effect that will have are livesIt also says by the blood of the lamb and the word of are testimony? I need to write mine out it is long. Loving not there lives to the death this one is one that some people leave out but is this going to be our hopr for the evil time ahead

rookie Apr 20, 2005

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Consumer prices jumped 0.6 percent in March, the biggest inflation surge in five months, as the costs of energy, clothing and airline fares all rose sharply.The Labor Department said last month's increase in the Consumer Price Index, the most closely watched inflation gauge, followed a 0.4 percent rise in February and left consumer inflation rising at an annual rate of 4.3 percent in the first three months of this year. That was a full percentage point above the 3.3 percent rise in prices for all of 2004.This is a serious warning!In ChristJeff

rookie May 17, 2005

HAVANA, Cuba (AP) -- Hundreds of thousands of Cubans answered Fidel Castro's call to file past the American mission early Tuesday in a "March against Terrorism," demanding that the United States arrest a Cuban militant in the deadly bombing of an airliner.Dressed in his traditional olive green military uniform and cap, the 78-year-old Castro showed up in the crowd outside the U.S. Interests Section minutes before the march was to start."Down with terrorism!" Castro shouted in brief comments before he stepped off to lead the march. "Down with Nazi doctrines and methods! Down with the lies!"Marchers began gathering hours before dawn, recalling the scores of massive marches the communist government organized in 2000 during the battle for the return of young Cuban castaway Elian Gonzalez to his homeland.Cuban state TV showed huge rivers of people crowded into side streets spilling into the Malecon coastal highway, which runs past the American mission. Most marchers wore T-shirts in red, blue or white, the colors of the Cuban flag.Protesters were calling for the arrest of Castro's longtime foe, Luis Posada Carriles, an elderly Cuban exile who recently traveled to the United States where he is seeking political asylum. Venezuela is seeking the extradition of Posada in the 1976 airliner bombing that killed 73 people.Posada, was once a senior officer of the Venezuelan intelligence service, denies involvement in the bombing.Cuban officials -- and newly released U.S. archives -- also link Posada to other violent actions, some of them military, some aimed at civilians. The declassified U.S. documents indicate he was on the CIA's payroll until a few months before the 1976 bombing.In his first media interview since arriving in the United States earlier this year, Posada again denied involved in the airliner explosion in a story published Tuesday by the Miami Herald."They accused me of being the intellectual author of fabricating a weapon of war and of treason to the homeland. No one saw me make a bomb," Posada said Wednesday in a two-hour interview at a luxury condominium. "Sincerely, I didn't know anything about it."But he was less forthcoming about a series of bombings targeting Cuban tourist sites in 1997, including one that killed a young Italian tourist. Despite previous admissions, Posada refused to confirm or deny playing a role in those bombings, saying, "Let's leave it to history."Posada applied for political asylum shortly after arriving in Miami in March following an illegal trip through Central America.Since then, Castro has been waging a relentless campaign, appearing frequently on state TV and calling on the U.S. government to arrest his old nemesis.How will the world believe that we are fighting terrorism when we also engage in terrorism? Will these Scriptures apply to the U.S.? Are we on a similar path?Habakkuk 2:9 \t“Woe to him who covets evil gain for his house,\tThat he may set his nest on high,\tThat he may be delivered from the power of disaster! 10 \tYou give shameful counsel to your house,\tCutting off many peoples,\tAnd sin against your soul. 11 \tFor the stone will cry out from the wall,\tAnd the beam from the timbers will answer it. 12 \t“Woe to him who builds a town with bloodshed,\tWho establishes a city by iniquity! 13 \tBehold, is it not of the LORD of hosts\tThat the peoples labor to feed the fire,\tAnd nations weary themselves in vain? 14 \tFor the earth will be filled\tWith the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,\tAs the waters cover the sea. 15 \t“Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor,\tPressing him to your bottle,\tEven to make him drunk,\tThat you may look on his nakedness! 16 \tYou are filled with shame instead of glory.\tYou also—drink!\tAnd be exposed as uncircumcised!\tThe cup of the LORD’S right hand will be turned against you,\tAnd utter shame will be on your glory. In ChristJeff

rookie May 18, 2005

Earthly EmpiresBy William C. Symonds, with Brian Grow in Atlanta and John Cady in New YorkBusinessWeek Online There's no shortage of churches in Houston, deep in the heart of the Bible Belt. So it's surprising that the largest one in the city -- and in the entire country -- is tucked away in a depressed corner most Houstonians would never dream of visiting. Yet 30,000 people endure punishing traffic on the narrow roads leading to Lakewood Church every weekend to hear Pastor Joel Osteen deliver upbeat messages of hope. A youthful-looking 42-year-old with a ready smile, he reassures the thousands who show up at each of his five weekend services that "God has a great future in store for you." His services are rousing affairs that often include his wife, Victoria, leading prayers and his mother, Dodie, discussing passages from the Bible.Osteen is so popular that he has nearly quadrupled attendance since taking over the pulpit from his late father in 1999, winning over believers from other churches as well as throngs of the "unsaved." Many are drawn first by his ubiquitous presence on television. Each week 7 million people catch the slickly produced broadcast of his Sunday sermons on national cable and network channels, for which Lakewood shells out $15 million a year. Adherents often come clutching a copy of Osteen's best-seller, Your Best Life Now, which has sold 2.5 million copies since its publication last fall.To keep them coming back, Lakewood offers free financial counseling, low-cost bulk food, even a "fidelity group" for men with "sexual addictions." Demand is brisk for the self-help sessions. Angie Mosqueda, 34, who was brought up a Catholic, says she and her husband, Mark, first went to Lakewood in 2000 when they were on the brink of a divorce. Mark even threw her out of the house after she confessed to infidelity. But over time, Lakewood counselors "really helped us to forgive one another and start all over again," she says.Disney LookOsteen's flourishing Lakewood enterprise brought in $55 million in contributions last year, four times the 1999 amount, church officials say. Flush with success, Osteen is laying out $90 million to transform the massive Compaq Center in downtown Houston -- former home of the NBA's Houston Rockets -- into a church that will seat 16,000, complete with a high-tech stage for his TV shows and Sunday School for 5,000 children. After it opens in July, he predicts weekend attendance will rocket to 100,000. Says Osteen: "Other churches have not kept up, and they lose people by not changing with the times."Pastor Joel is one of a new generation of evangelical entrepreneurs transforming their branch of Protestantism into one of the fastest-growing and most influential religious groups in America. Their runaway success is modeled unabashedly on business. They borrow tools ranging from niche marketing to MBA hiring to lift their share of U.S. churchgoers. Like Osteen, many evangelical pastors focus intently on a huge potential market -- the millions of Americans who have drifted away from mainline Protestant denominations or simply never joined a church in the first place.To reach these untapped masses, savvy leaders are creating Sunday Schools that look like Disney World (NYSE: DIS - News ) and church cafés with the appeal of Starbucks (NasdaqNM: SBUX - News). Although most hold strict religious views, they scrap staid hymns in favor of multimedia worship and tailor a panoply of services to meet all kinds of consumer needs, from divorce counseling to help for parents of autistic kids. Like Osteen, many offer an upbeat message intertwined with a religious one. To make newcomers feel at home, some do away with standard religious symbolism -- even basics like crosses and pews -- and design churches to look more like modern entertainment halls than traditional places of worship.to be continued.........In Christ Jeff

rookie May 18, 2005

(Continued)Branding WhizSo successful are some evangelicals that they're opening up branches like so many new Home Depots (NYSE: HD - News) or Subways. This year, the 16.4 million-member Southern Baptist Convention plans to "plant" 1,800 new churches using by-the-book niche-marketing tactics. "We have cowboy churches for people working on ranches, country music churches, even several motorcycle churches aimed at bikers," says Martin King, a spokesman for the Southern Baptists' North American Mission Board.Branding whizzes that they are, the new church leaders are spreading their ideas through every available outlet. A line of "Biblezines" packages the New Testament in glossy magazines aimed at different market segments -- there's a hip-hop version and one aimed at teen girls. Christian music appeals to millions of youths, some of whom otherwise might never give church a second thought, serving up everything from alternative rock to punk and even "screamo" (they scream religious lyrics). California megachurch pastor Rick Warren's 2002 book, The Purpose-Driven Life, has become the fastest-selling nonfiction book of all time, with more than 23 million copies sold, in part through a novel "pyro marketing" strategy. Then there's the Left Behind phenomenon, a series of action-packed, apocalyptic page-turners about those left on earth after Christ's second coming, selling more than 60 million copies since 1995.Evangelicals' eager embrace of corporate-style growth strategies is giving them a tremendous advantage in the battle for religious market share, says Roger Finke, a Pennsylvania State University sociology professor and co-author of a new book, The Churching of America, 1776-2005: Winners and Losers in Our Religious Economy. A new Pope has given Catholicism a burst of global publicity, but its nominal membership growth in the U.S. stems largely from the influx of Mexican immigrants. Overall, the Catholic Church's long-term decline in U.S. attendance accelerated after the recent sex-abuse scandals, there's a severe priest shortage, and parish churches and schools are closing in the wake of a financial crisis.Similarly, the so-called mainline Protestants who dominated 20th century America have become the religious equivalent of General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM - News) The large denominations -- including the United Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church -- have been shrinking for decades and have lost more than 1 million members in the past 10 years alone. Today, mainline Protestants account for just 16% of the U.S. population, says University of Akron political scientist John C. Green.In contrast, evangelicalism's theological flexibility gives it the freedom to adapt to contemporary culture. With no overarching authority like the Vatican, leaders don't need to wrestle with a bureaucratic hierarchy that dictates acceptable behavior. "If you have a vision for ministry, you just do it, which makes it far easier to respond to market demand," says University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill sociology professor Christian Smith.With such low barriers to entry, the number of evangelical megachurches -- defined as those that attract at least 2,000 weekly worshippers -- has shot up to 880 from 50 in 1980, figures John N. Vaughan, founder of research outfit Church Growth Today in Bolivar, Mo. He calculates that a new megachurch emerges in the U.S. an average of every two days. Overall, white evangelicals make up more than a quarter of Americans today, experts estimate. The figures are fuzzy because there's no common definition of evangelical, which typically refers to Christians who believe the Bible is the literal work of God. They may include many Southern Baptists, nondenominational churches, and some Lutherans and Methodists. There are also nearly 25 million black Protestants who consider themselves evangelicals but largely don't share the conservative politics of most white ones. Says pollster George Gallup, who has studied religious trends for decades: "The evangelicals are the most vibrant branch of Christianity."to be continued......

rookie May 18, 2005

The triumph of evangelical Christianity is profoundly reshaping many aspects of American politics and society. Historically, much of the U.S. political and business elite has been mainline Protestant. Today, President George W. Bush and more than a dozen members of Congress, including House Speaker Dennis Hastert, are evangelicals. More important, the Republican Right has been fueled by the swelling ranks of evangelicals, whose leaders tend to be conservative politically despite their progressive marketing methods. In the 1960s and '70s, prominent evangelicals like Billy Graham kept a careful separation of pulpit and politics -- even though he served as a spiritual adviser to President Richard M. Nixon. That began to change in the early 1980s, when Jerry Falwell formed the Moral Majority to express evangelicals' political views. Many of today's evangelicals hope to expand their clout even further. They're also gaining by taking their views into Corporate America. Exhibit A: the recent clash at software giant Microsoft.As they thrive, though, there are growing tensions, with some mainline Protestants offended by their conservative politics and brazen marketing. "Jesus was not a capitalist; check out what [He] says about how hard it is to get into heaven if you're a rich man," says the Reverend Robert W. Edgar, general secretary of the liberal National Council of Churches.Especially controversial are leaders like Osteen and the flamboyant Creflo A. Dollar, pastor of World Changers Church International in College Park, Ga., who preach "the prosperity gospel." They endorse material wealth and tell followers that God wants them to be prosperous. In his book, Osteen talks about how his wife, Victoria, a striking blonde who dresses fashionably, wanted to buy a fancy house some years ago, before the money rolled in. He thought it wasn't possible. "But Victoria had more faith," he wrote. "She convinced me we could live in an elegant home...and several years later, it did come to pass." Dollar, too, defends materialistic success. Dubbed "Pass-the-Dollar" by critics, he owns two Rolls Royces (NasdaqNM: RYCEY.PK - News) and travels in a Gulfstream 3 jet. "I practice what I preach, and the Bible says...that God takes pleasure in the prosperity of his servants," says Dollar, 43, nattily attired in French cuffs and a pinstriped suit.Hucksters?Some evangelical leaders acknowledge that flagrant materialism can raise the specter of religious hucksterism à la Sinclair Lewis' fictional Elmer Gantry or Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. "Our goal is not to turn the church into a business," insists Warren, the founder of Saddleback megachurch in Lake Forest, Calif. After The Purpose-Driven Life made him millions, he repaid Saddleback all the salary he had taken over the years and still lives modestly. Cautions Kurt Frederickson, a director of the Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif.: "We have to be careful when a pastor moves into the CEO mode and becomes too market-oriented, or there might be a reaction against megachurches just as there is against Wal-Mart."Many evangelicals say they're just trying to satisfy demands not met by traditional churches. Craig Groeschel, who launched Life Church in Edmond, Okla., in 1996, started out doing market research with non-churchgoers in the area -- and got an earful. "They said churches were full of hypocrites and were boring," he recalls. So he designed Life Church to counter those preconceptions, with lively, multimedia-filled services in a setting that's something between a rock concert and a coffee shop.Once established, some ambitious churches are making a big business out of spreading their expertise. Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill., formed a consulting arm called Willow Creek Assn. It earned $17 million last year, partly by selling marketing and management advice to 10,500 member churches from 90 denominations. Jim Mellado, the hard-charging Harvard MBA who runs it, last year brought an astonishing 110,000 church and lay leaders to conferences on topics such as effective leadership. "Our entrepreneurial impulse comes from the Biblical mandate to get the message out," says Willow Creek founder Bill Hybels, who hired Stanford MBA Greg Hawkins, a former McKinsey & Co. consultant, to handle the church's day-to-day management. Willow Creek's methods have even been lauded in a Harvard Business School case study.Hybel's consumer-driven approach is evident at Willow Creek, where he shunned stained glass, Bibles, or even a cross for the 7,200-seat, $72 million sanctuary he recently built. The reason? Market research suggested that such traditional symbols would scare away non-churchgoers. He also gives practical advice. On a recent Wednesday evening, one of his four "teaching" pastors gave a service that started with 20 minutes of music, followed by a lengthy sermon about the Christian approach to personal finances. He told the 5,000 listeners about resisting advertising aimed at getting people to buy things they don't need and suggested they follow up at home by e-mailing questions. Like Osteen, Hybel packages self-help programs with a positive message intended to make people feel good about themselves. "When I walk out of a service, I feel completely relieved of any stress I walked in with," says Phil Earnest, 38, a sales manager who in 2003 switched to Willow Creek from the Methodist Church he found too stodgy.So adept at the sell are some evangelicals that it can be difficult to distinguish between their religious aims and the secular style they mimic. Last December, Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Tex., staged a spectacular Christmas festival, including a 500-person choir, that attracted 70,000 people even though the cheapest ticket was $20. Throughout the year, some 16,000 people take part in its sports program, which uses eight playing fields and six gyms on its $100 million, 140-acre campus. The teams, coached by church members, bring in converts, many of them children, says Executive Pastor Mike Buster.Gushers of CashKids are often a prime target audience for megachurches. The main campus of Groeschel's Life Church in Edmond, Okla., includes a "Toon Town" of 3D buildings, a 16-foot high slide, and an animatronic police chief who recites rules. All the razzmatazz has helped Life Church quadruple its Sunday school attendance to more than 2,500 a week. "The kids are bringing their parents to church," says children's pastor Scott Werner.Such marketing and services help to create brand loyalty any CEO would envy. Willow Creek ranks in the top 5% of 250 major brands, right up with Nike (NYSE: NKE - News) and John Deere (NYSE: DE - News), says Eric Arnson. He helped develop a consumer-brand practice that McKinsey then bought and recently did a pro bono study for Willow Creek using that methodology.Other megachurches are franchising their good name. Life Church now has five campuses in Oklahoma and will expand into Phoenix this fall. Pastor Groeschel jumped the 1,000 miles to Arizona after market research pinpointed Phoenix as an area with a large population but few effective churches. Atlanta's Dollar, who is African American, has pushed into five countries, including Nigeria and South Africa.All this growth, plus the tithing many evangelicals encourage, is generating gushers of cash. A traditional U.S. church typically has fewer than 200 members and an annual budget of around $100,000. The average megachurch pulls in $4.8 million, according to a 1999 study by the Hartford Seminary, one of the few surveys on the topic. The money is also fueling a megachurch building boom. First Baptist Church of Woodstock, near Atlanta, for example, has just finished a $62 million, 7,000-seat sanctuary.Megachurch business ventures sometimes grow beyond the bounds of the church itself. In the mid-1990s, Kirbyjon Caldwell, a Wharton MBA who sold bonds for First Boston before he enrolled in seminary, formed an economic development corporation that revived a depressed neighborhood near Houston's 14,000-member Windsor Village United Methodist Church, which he heads. A former Kmart now houses a mix of church and private businesses employing 270 people, including a Christian school and a bank. New plans call for a massive center with senior housing, retailing, and a public school.For all their seemingly unstoppable success, evangelicals must contend with powerful forces in U.S. society. The ranks of Americans who express no religious preference have quadrupled since 1991, to 14%, according to a recent poll. Despite the megachurch surge, overall church attendance has remained fairly flat. And if anything, popular culture has become more vulgar in recent years. Still, experts like pollster Gallup see clear signs of a rising fascination with spirituality in the U.S. The September 11 attacks are one reason. So is the aging of the culturally influential Baby Boom, since spirituality tends to increase with age, he says. If so, no one is better poised than evangelicals to capitalize on the trend.Capitalize on the trend.House of prayer? or?In ChristJeff

rookie May 18, 2005

Rahman May 18, 2005

The Feds inching up interest rates ... Credit/money supply is tightening ... Dollar's in trouble ... Blind Representatives and Congressmen fooling themselves into thinking China, who along with Japan buys our debt, has more to lose that the U.S. in a mutual trade war ... US bonds falling in value ... US stock market staggering ... Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae in trouble ... Financial Analyst scared to death that the Housing bubble may pop ... Enron, World Com and now the Stock securites Exchange have relegated both GM and Ford's investment paper to junk bonds ... United Airlines just dumped all their pensioners, other airlines will soon follow, as will GM and Ford, and the government agency that's supposed to assure pensions up to half their value is itself $23 billion dollars in debt ... Social Security is a joke ... These are but the beginning of the woes of the aging Baby Boomers of the American middle class ... Gas price increases ... Future fuel shortages due to increasing demand (China) and not enough refining capacity ... Etc ... etc ... etc ... and the list not only goes on but is added to negatively with each passing day ... But so much of the American Evangelical Church is rolling right along in the same blind oblivion as every one else caught up in the delusion of American prosperity while completely ignoring the fact that we're nationally in hock now way past our eyeballs ... Guess there's soon gonna be a whole lot of empty mega-church real estate for sale, at cents on the dollar, amongst such other usless edifices/facilities to the god of mammon in financially depressed times like Specialty Stores and Shopping Malls ... How will the business man/pastor swing all the debt he's swallowed when half his congregation suffer financial loss? ... How will the false prophet/entrepreneur continue their extravagant lifestyle as the American cash cow becomes as lean as those of Pharoah's dream? ... A day of economic reckoning is shortly upon us for our God is a jealous God who warns us to have no other gods before Him, because in His so great a love for us He will eventually topple whatever and whoever it is that we have set before Him ... And as usuall the more the watchmen sound the alarm, the more determined folk become in ignoring it ... So much sadness that's even now past the horizon in it's coming toward us, dust cloud so evident ... So many modern day Americans, and alas so sad even saints, can't believe that they will ever experience such OT archaic language as "weeping and gnashing of teeth" ... But i can tell you that that's what many saints are doing right now who had all their hopes and trust tied to the likes of such man made institutions as Enron, World Com, United Airlines and the like ... And the same will be true for many as they watch their man inspired mega-churches dry up and topple ... Extreme wealth produces boom towns ... Extreme poverty produces ghost towns ... So sad that even we Christians have sucumbed to the madness and folly of satan's "fool's gold" ... But bless God He always has the perfect plan and answer to snatch His own back to His reality ... Amen

IRONMAN May 21, 2005

JeffI read the posts you put up on the megachurches and their pastors/methods etc. Interesting. It does beg the question, are these houses of prayer or are they temples filled with money changers? One thing is for sure though, when the prosperity gospel is revealed for the fraud it is, we will see truly where people have their treasure.

IRONMAN May 22, 2005

I watch CNN and listen with interest at the financial news. Everyone seems all smiles about everything, Fannie May and Freddie Mack were briefly mentioned as being worried that the housing bubble would burst. of course noone came across as believing that it would happen. Noone ever talks about how much in debt we are or how dangerous that is or that the economy is in trouble. I guess we can see now that it is beginning to crumble. For those whose hearts are tied up to their wealth there shall indeed be much weeping and gnashng of teeth and anger directed to those who lead them astray...aka BEEF.the old saying does ring true, great pride always comes before a great fall. I think it is going to be a sudden collapse of the economy. Without wealth to distract us, perhaps we can begin to focus on God more.

crsschk May 22, 2005

Thanks Jeff,Really think this is much appreciated and seldom mentioned, a very informative and thought provoking thread, always. So, thanks brother.One thing that rose to the top, what of all the financiers of all these mega-churches? Maybe the bigger question is, would these behemoths even exist if it wasn't for making an old covenant requirement subtly binding upon the believers?

IRONMAN May 22, 2005

what old covenant requirement is that? :-?

crsschk May 22, 2005

what old covenant requirement is that?Tithing is not a Old Testament Law ! tithingStanding Fast in Christian Liberty

IRONMAN May 22, 2005

oh ok so tithing is more of sharing rather than donating to a church?

rookie May 24, 2005

US army 'let down dead NFL star' Tillman joined up six months after the 11 September 2001 terror attacks The family of NFL star turned soldier, Pat Tillman have expressed anger at the US army's handling of his death. "After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," his father told the Washington Post. Tillman died in Afghanistan in 2004 and for weeks afterwards, US army officials said he was killed by enemy fire. They are said to have known he had been accidentally shot by US troops, but failed to inform his family of this. 'Poster boy' Tillman's parents said they believe the military concocted the story that their son had been killed in a hail of enemy fire to stimulate national pride. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterwards is disgusting Mary Tillman "They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realised that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a hand basket if the truth about the death got out. They blew up their poster boy," Patrick Tillman Senior said. Tillman turned his back on a contract with the Arizona Cardinals American football team, worth $3.6m (£2m), when he joined the US army six months after the 11 September 2001 attacks. He enlisted in the US Rangers alongside his brother Kevin - a former professional baseball player with the Cleveland Indians - and both were subsequently despatched to Afghanistan as part of the US war on terror. "Pat had high ideals about the country, that's why he did what he did. The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect," his mother Mary Tillman said. Uniform burnt Tillman died on 22 April 2004 when his US Rangers patrol was hit by gunfire as it passed along a canyon road in Khost province, south of Kabul, at twilight. Fans flocked to pay tribute to the star when he died The 27-year-old was hit by a hail of bullets, which army officials quickly claimed came from the enemy - a story they stuck to for weeks afterwards. But according to a recent US military investigation, army chiefs were informed that Tillman's death was the result of "friendly fire" within days of his death, but chose not to reveal this fact to his family or friends. The true details of his death were not made known until 29 May 2004, weeks after a televised memorial service in which fans paid tribute to the man hailed as an "American hero". "The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting," his mother said. Tillman's uniform and body armour were burned the day after he was fatally shot. At the time, officials claimed his uniform had been burned because it presented a biohazard. However, investigators now say his clothes should have been preserved as evidence. The military investigation, led by Brig Gen Gary Jones of the Army Special Operations Command, was carried out at the request of Tillman family, who wanted to know why the uniform was burned and why information was withheld.End of article......Is. 30:28 \tHis breath is like an overflowing stream,\tWhich reaches up to the neck,\tTo sift the nations with the sieve of futility;\tAnd there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people,\tCausing them to err. In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 2, 2005

Pension penance Retirement funding needs a major overhaul, now May. 31, 2005 12:00 AM The traditional notion of retirement took a body blow recently. United Airlines dumped its pension plan, the largest such default in U.S. history. It won't be the last. The corporate pension system is staggering. We need to shore it up before it collapses. Many companies have been underfunding their retirement plans for years. With the added pressure of a weak stock market and low interest rates, the shortfall is estimated at $450 billion. The government agency that insures pensions, the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., is reeling, too. With the United default, it has deficit of nearly $30 billion. If struggling companies keep bailing out of pension plans, the PBGC will face financial catastrophe. There are just three possibilities for dealing with the losses, says Bradley Belt, executive director of the PBGC. The companies that participate in the insurance program will have to make up the difference. Workers will take severe cuts in benefits (there's already a limit on their paychecks when the PBGC takes over a plan). Or taxpayers will be left holding the bag. Stiffing workers is neither fair nor acceptable. Sure, companies have been phasing out the "defined benefit" plans, which providing a regular retirement check for life. Only one out of five workers now has that once-standard benefit. But there's still a huge number of Americans - an estimated 34 million - who have made their retirement plans counting on the promised pension. A full-scale rescue by taxpayers is equally unacceptable. When the federal government is deep in debt, we would be hard-pressed to come up with the resources. And the pension liabilities dwarf the size of the fiasco that occurred when the savings-and-loan industry went belly-up. We must find ways to keep the pension system functioning. In some cases, that means companies will freeze current benefits and shift to a different type of pension, based not on fixed payouts but on the amount of money contributed to the plan. Northwest and Continental airlines are negotiating such an arrangement with their unions, according to news reports. Congress needs to clarify the rules for companies seeking to switch from traditional plans to other systems. Regulations must be tighter for funding pension plans, preventing companies from deliberately contributing too little money. Congress should also remove the disincentives for putting in extra funding when times are flush. We must also strengthen the PBGC. Premiums need to be higher for participating companies and should take into account the relative riskiness of their pension plans. The Bush administration has proposed an increase of nearly 60 percent in premiums. Some argue that an across-the-board premium increase puts an unfair burden on responsible companies that have properly funded their pension plans. And it would be counterproductive if the rate increase were so high that it prompted companies to pull out of the pension system, shrinking the support for the PBGC. On the other hand, the current rate for premiums was set in 1994. An adjustment is certainly in order. The biggest adjustment, though, is for workers. Even the most effective job of stabilizing pensions is no more than temporary life support. The traditional security of a company-sponsored retirement plan, with a dependable monthly paycheck, is gone. And Social Security, as we know, is in real need of an overhaul. The bottom line: Save like crazy. End of Article,If one continues to read the headlines, every where you hear the same news. Social Security is broke, Private Pension Plans are broke, don't rely on them. Whether it is the Social Security system or the private pension plan system our government is responsible for these problems. Our leaders tax us at a greater rate than is required for Social Security funding. The excess money they receive, they spend on other things. Our government has made the laws which allow the private corporations to not fund their own obligations to those that work for them. Our government has an agency which is to secure the pension benefits should the private corporations fail to fulfill their obligations to their workers. This agency is no longer solvent. So again the tax payers bail out private and public plans. My question is why do so many people place their faith in the governments of men? In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 3, 2005

61% of all home mortgages taken on by home owners last year in the state of California, are interest only loans. This enables someone who would have to pay 1800 dollars a month for a 300,000 dollar mortgage to pay only 1250 per month. However in as short as 3 years these people will have to begin paying interest and principle to satisfy lenders. When this happens the mortgage is refinanced at the going rate then. So will these people be able to pay their mortgage? What might happen if all of these people need to sell the home all at the same time? Our leaders are no different than those they lead. Do you see where the evidence of their hopes lies?In ChristJeff

GaryE Jun 4, 2005

The letters in this thread sound more political than spiritual. Of the posts I've read in this thread, some contain quotes of liberals. It is these very liberal traitors that have been used by Satan to take this country backwards for the last forty years. So, if backbiting our elected president by majority vote is where you guys are at then it must be said that many of the people that have read these posts that don't agree with you guys. In 2 Timothy 3:4 the word traitor is used. Verse 3 speaks about false accursers and this is what at least some people think of your posts. Also the word tells us not to dissemble with our lips or be talebearers.During the early sixtys we were told that there would be no more reading the bible or prayer in school any longer. Up to that time some teachers read the bible or prayed with children at school in Pa. Some teachers told us no bible reading and no prayer was a good thing; others didn't believe it was good at all only they were't allowed to tell us why any longer. So, children like myself figured this was a good thing.Later, during the sixtys, while in high school we were taught that abortion would make a world that all the children born would be wanted. They told us there would be no more child abuse. This was of course a lie but it made sence and we believed it.Later in the sixties, the fifth collumn fell apart during the Viet Nam War. It was traitors like I was at that time that extended the war and caused our country to retreat. Most of our news then like today had a liberal slant to it and people like me fell for the lies.After coming to the Lord, I had to think a lot of things through that previously I had accepted. Being involved with war was one of those things and also whether being a policeman was right. Some of my confusion was cleared up when considering a story of a woman being raped and killed ouside an appartment building with thirty or forty people not responding to her screems. God showed me that as a Christian I can't let evil go on around me and not do something about it if I possibly can. One liberal cartoonist from our past said on his cartoon that the way to overthrow a country was to undermine its leaders. I guess that is what has been done in the last forty plus years. We have special interest liberal judges making laws instead of interpreting our laws.A few years back there was a man nominated for the Supreme Court named Bork who apparently was against abortion. The lieing liberals said they didn't want a litmus test when they in fact had their own litmus test; don't let a person get on the Supreme Court that is against abortion. Currently, the litmus test is don't let any radical right wing fanatical Christians on the Supreme Court.As far as the prosperity gospel and maybe other things in this thread, I agree with you guys.In Christ,GaryE

rookie Jun 4, 2005

Brother Gary wrote:he letters in this thread sound more political than spiritual. Of the posts I've read in this thread, some contain quotes of liberals. It is these very liberal traitors that have been used by Satan to take this country backwards for the last forty years.Prior to the period you speak of the church sought to distance itself from government. You see Abraham did not desire the country from which he once lived but he desired a heavenly country. He was a pilgrim on this earth. Many of the articles that have been posted here speak of the times in which we live. The morals of both the leaders and the people are corrupt. The only solution is to point the people to Jesus. The focus of this thread most times seeks to identify how the powers and principalities fight to prevent the people from looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. Many times we are distracted only to find that we have left the path in pursuit of Satan's schemes. Only love for the truth will protect the saints for the schemes of the prowling lion. I never use the terms conservative or liberal. They are both false paths. The ancient path is the one that will seperate both the liberals and conservatives from this world.In ChristJeff

rookie Jun 4, 2005

Brother Gary wrote:The letters in this thread sound more political than spiritual.Upon reflection, I have gotten lazy in looking at each situation illustrated and presenting it through a Scriptural sieve. I am sorry, Brother Gary and all who have grown weary of the relentless focus of worldly things. I will endeavor to be more thoughtful Scripturally speaking.In ChristJeff

rookie Aug 26, 2005

There is a video available on this website which reports on the impact the mega-church phenomenon is having on the smaller churchs in the U.S. This particular report cover Joel Olsteen's ministry.http://news.bbc.co.uk/#In ChristJeff

sermonindex Aug 28, 2005

1st post - page 1, on this thread by rookie on 2004/5/19 12:39:24 Our lives are filled with the philosophies and hopes of this world. And unless we are like the mighty men of David who knew that their times were wicked how can we battle against the ruler of this world. In ChristJeffWow .... Now how did I miss this thread, till just now.Sure glad it got bumped two days ago.I saw up to page 6 and then just could glance some more after that and because my eyes are starting to hurt now, I'll have to finish the rest another day.On the BBC, night before last, a "new research" came out by a new Dr. Frankenstein (I call him) ... that claimed that babies (he calls them 'fetuses') up to, I think he said 21 weeks old, don't feel PAIN. If that doesn't make you furious, then you need an cranial MRI or something.I wrote down his name, but now can't find it.When I do, I'll post it.Jeff, your quote above said it all. Don't apologise for mixing your news reports with Bible.Those "are" the signs of the times. And David's men were 'wise' to them and Jesus asked us to be "wise to them". How many times is the word "Watch" in the N.T. ?This thread is one of the best I've seen in many moons, and I appreciate everyone that posted to it.I hope you'll either continue it, or start a part two, but if it's O.K., I personally would like to see this one just continue, with all the same posters who I saw in the first, (I forget) how many pages.God Bless the Watchman in the Church.Maybe all are not called to be Watchman, but don't knock those who are, just because that's not your burden .... right ? Love you all.Annie

sermonindex Aug 28, 2005

Researcher Stands by Fetal Pain FindingsReview suggesting early-stage fetuses don't feel pain has triggered heated debate. By Randy DotingaHealthDay Reporter WEDNESDAY, Aug. 24 (HealthDay News) -- A controversial new research article questioning whether early-term fetuses feel pain has triggered a heated debate on how the research might influence the flash-point realm of abortion politics. But a neuroscientist who helped write the paper, published Wednesday, said there's no doubt about the conclusion: Humans only feel pain if they have a properly functioning brain, and fetuses in the early stages of development don't."The circuitry is not there," at least in the first 20 weeks, said Dr. Henry Ralston, a professor of anatomy and neuroscience at the University of California, San Francisco. "Without the connections, the sensation can't take place."The report, a review of known research by four doctors and a researcher at UCSF, goes even further: In examining the effectiveness of giving anesthesia to a fetus for therapuetic procedures or abortion, the researchers concluded that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester, at 29 to 30 weeks. Other doctors disagree, however, as do anti-abortion activists who criticized the findings, which appear in the Aug. 24/31 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association.Dr. K. S. Anand, a pediatrician at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, told The New York Times, "There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that pain occurs in the fetus."Anand said premature babies only 23 or 24 weeks old cry when their heels are pricked for blood tests and become conditioned to cry when someone nears their feet. "In the first trimester, there is very likely no pain perception," Anand said. "By the second trimester, all bets are off, and I would argue that in the absence of absolute proof we should give the fetus the benefit of the doubt if we are going to call ourselves compassionate and humane physicians."The study is also raising eyebrows, according to a Philadelphia Inquirer report, because one of its authors is the head of an abortion clinic. Her affiliation was not disclosed in the study, nor was that of the lead author, a medical student who once worked for an abortion-rights organization, the newspaper said.The researcher, UCSF obstetrician-gynecologist Eleanor A. Drey, is medical director of the abortion clinic at San Francisco General Hospital. She told the Inquirer: "We thought it was critical to include an expert in abortion among the authors. I think my presence ... should not serve to politicize a scholarly report."JAMA editor-in-chief Catherine D. DeAngelis told the newspaper she had been unaware of that."This is the first I've heard about it," she said. "We ask them to reveal any conflict of interest. I would have published" the disclosure if it had been made.The issue of fetal pain, once fairly obscure, has taken an increasingly prominent position in the public consciousness in recent months. More than a dozen state legislatures -- including those in New York and California -- have debated whether to require doctors to tell women getting abortions about the potential pain felt by fetuses during the procedures. The proposed laws would require doctors to offer anesthesia for the fetus. Arkansas, Georgia and Minnesota have already passed such laws.And Congress is considering whether to require doctors to provide anesthesia to fetuses in all cases of abortion after 22 weeks of gestational age. (The new study noted that only 1.2 percent of abortions in the United States are performed at or after 21 weeks.)Ralston said he and his colleagues launched their study, an analysis of previous research, to provide some perspective on the debate. The researchers examined studies that looked at feelings of fetal pain before the age of 30 weeks. They found that while there hasn't been much research, the evidence suggests that fetuses aren't able to sense pain before the third trimester. They also report that "little or no" research provides guidance about the use of anesthesia on fetuses. Advocates of anesthesia legislation have pointed to medical reports that fetuses shy away from painful stimuli, like the stick of a needle, in operations during pregnancy. Some doctors argue that infants between 20 and 30 weeks actually suffer pain more intensely than older fetuses and babies because their neural systems aren't set up to adequately process the sensations. But Ralston said early fetal reactions are simply reflexes stemming from the spinal cord, not a matter of brain response to pain. The spinal cord develops earlier than the brain, as early as eight weeks, he said. So when do fetuses actually start feeling pain? Ralston said it's not clear, but the lack of feeling before 20 to 22 weeks is "open and shut."However, Dr. David A. Grimes, a former head of abortion surveillance at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention who now delivers babies and also performs abortions in Chapel Hill, N.C., told the Times, "This is an unknowable question.""All we can do in medicine is to infer," he added.Still, he said, the new research makes a compelling case that fetuses younger than 29 weeks have no perception of pain.(SOURCES: Henry Ralston, M.D., professor of anatomy and neuroscience, University of California, San Francisco; Aug. 24/31, 2005, Journal of the American Medical Association; Philadelphia Inquirer; The New York Times) http://www.healthfinder.gov/news/newsstory.asp?docID=527596Minnesota Public RadioSt. Paul, Minn. — The law was a top legislative priority for the state's largest anti-abortion group, Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life. While such measures often draw a fight from abortion rights supporters, Minnesota's fetal pain measure passed with little opposition.The new law says women seeking abortions who are more than 20 weeks pregnant must be offered anesthesia for their fetuses. In practical terms, that will not affect many cases. Only 67 of the nearly 14,000 abortions performed in Minnesota last year were at more than 20 weeks. Still, Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Line lobbyist Jackie Moen says her organization felt strongly about the provision."We do want people to know that these are unborn children, and they can feel pain," she said.Moen says scientific evidence shows that by 20 weeks, all the systems are in place for a fetus to feel pain. But the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says there is no legitimate scientific information indicating that a fetus experiences pain. The organization also cautions that a higher dose of anesthesia for women undergoing the procedure puts them at greater medical risk. http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/08/01_mccalluml_fetalpain/National Right to Life articlehttp://www.nrlc.org/abortion/fetal_pain/Proabortionlinktostudy.htmlHow long Oh Lord ?

rookie Oct 21, 2005

Chavez warns U.S. against invasionUnited States says it has no plans to invade. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez addressed businessmen in Paris Thursday.PARIS, France (AP) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Thursday that his government is preparing for a possible U.S. invasion, and he warned that such "aggression" would send gasoline prices in the United States soaring.The U.S. government repeated that it is not planning any such thing.Chavez, a vocal critic of "imperialism" and the Bush administration, said he was not against the American people -- just the current government."We are sure that it will be very difficult for the United States to attack Venezuela," Chavez said. He said his country has eight oil refineries and 14,000 gasoline stations in the United States."If the United States tried to attack Venezuela by a direct invasion, forget the oil," he said during a two-hour news conference beamed live to Venezuela. "Everyday we send 1.5 million barrels to the United States."The barrel price of crude oil could hit $150 following a U.S. attack, Chavez said. Currently New York light sweet crude oil trades around $60 a barrel."That's why Pat Robertson, the spiritual adviser of Mr. Bush, is calling for my assassination. That would be much cheaper than an invasion," Chavez said.Robertson, the U.S. religious broadcaster, said in August that Chavez should be killed, then later apologized.In Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Chavez's suspicions were unfounded."I've stated many times before, the United States is prepared to work with any government in the region: left of center, center, right of center. Our issue is with states that don't govern in a democratic manner," McCormack said.The Venezuelan leader used his news conference to trumpet what he called his "alternative" vision of a world that works for the poor rather than corporations seeking profits.Chavez reiterated longtime claims that the United States finances his opponents, seeks his ouster and sabotages efforts to move his country forward."Venezuela is used to defending itself ... and fighting imperialism," Chavez said, speaking in Spanish with a French translator."We must be ready for an aggression," said Chavez, who previously said Venezuela is organizing an expanded military reserve and civilian defense units.In an interview with the British Broadcasting Corp. radio aired earlier Thursday, Chavez said he had evidence to prove the U.S. government was planning an invasion.Chavez said he believed the reason Washington was plotting an invasion was to take control of Venezuela's oil fields.Meanwhile, Israel canceled -- under American pressure -- a lucrative deal to upgrade Venezuelan warplanes, Israel TV reported Thursday.The report said Israel was to install its own systems in U.S.-made F-16 fighters for the Venezuelan air force, but the U.S. government forced Israel to call off the deal. No dollar figure for the deal was given.Israeli Defense Ministry officials were not immediately available for comment.End of Article,How many things do you see in this article that are lies or present evil?Here is one item>"I've stated many times before, the United States is prepared to work with any government in the region: left of center, center, right of center. Our issue is with states that don't govern in a democratic manner," McCormack said. In fact, the people of Venezuela actually elected Chavez by vast majority. Democracy as Plato suggested is alive and well in Venezuala. So what issue is McCormack really speaking of? Here is another Item>Meanwhile, Israel canceled -- under American pressure -- a lucrative deal to upgrade Venezuelan warplanes, Israel TV reported Thursday.The report said Israel was to install its own systems in U.S.-made F-16 fighters for the Venezuelan air force, but the U.S. government forced Israel to call off the deal. No dollar figure for the deal was given.Why in the first place is Israel selling weapons? And secondly, who sold them the weapons of mass destruction?In ChristJeff

rookie Oct 31, 2005

Voodoo practitioners scatter after KatrinaMonday, October 31, 2005; Posted: 9:25 a.m. EST (14:25 GMT) Louisiana (AP) -- The last time Don Glossop saw his customers they were ritually burning green candles, hoping voodoo would pierce the federal bureaucracy and hasten the arrival of desperately needed relief checks.Glossop's shop, New Orleans Mistic, has been closed since Hurricane Katrina swamped the city two months ago, and most of his clients, who practice a local variant of voodoo, have scattered across the country.He fears that Katrina, which laid waste to entire neighborhoods and claimed hundreds of lives here, may take another casualty: New Orleans' status as the country's voodoo capital."As of today I would say it's pretty dead," Glossop said. "Even the tourist shops are in jeopardy. There is a chance for a huge loss here."Voodoo has long been entrenched in New Orleans, quietly practiced in homes with altars, candles and incense to solve problems of the heart and wallet. Before the storm tore through, about 15 percent of the city's population actively practiced, according to Lisa Fannon, a tour guide, though estimates vary widely.Voodoo is part of the vernacular here, showing up in jazz and conversation. Some residents still sprinkle red brick dust on their doorway steps to ward off evil spirits.It's an economic draw as well, enticing curious tourists and their pocketbooks into stores such as Glossop's.While plans are still on for an annual voodoo fest for Monday, organizer Brandi Kelley said the event will be much smaller this year because many drummers and dancers were forced to relocate.The ceremony at her shop will focus mainly on healing the city."We have got to call on the ancestors for help and get real serious about it," Kelley said. "The spirit is in the city. It's the spirit of this city that is going to rise from the ashes."If only she could find her snake for the closing ceremony. He was supposed to be in a bathtub of a friend's apartment."They say he's somewhere in this room full of debris," Kelley said, her voice trailing off.It wasn't supposed to be this way. The "go away" hurricane ritual was performed in July, just as it always is at the start of the hurricane season."It didn't quite work out so well," acknowledged Giselle Moller, manager of Marie Laveau House of Voodoo. But, she said, it may have helped a bit."Imagine if the hurricane would have hit us straight on. There would have been no French Quarter," she said.Even before Katrina, some thought voodoo was fading in New Orleans because the younger generation was less interested in the complicated practice, which involves substantial memorization of rituals and songs, Glossop said.But New Orleans is not giving up on voodoo, notwithstanding evangelist Franklin Graham's recent comments that the city's Mardi Gras revelry and ties to voodoo were adverse to Christian beliefs.Defenders say voodoo is a legitimate African-based religion that has been unfairly maligned in movies and popular culture."Voodoo is not some kind of black magic cult," said Wade Davis, a Washington-based National Geographic explorer-in-residence who has studied the religion extensively in Haiti. "It's the distillation of very profound religious ideas that came over during the tragic era of slavery."In New Orleans, much of what is practiced these days is a system of folk magic. Some also practice Haitian voodoo.As the city revives, proponents hope voodoo will make a comeback, too, because it's part of the intrigue that draws visitors."I think it's going to be a very strong part of what will get people back here," said Jameson King, who works in one of the voodoo shops in the French Quarter. "We're here for more than drinking."Look at the evil in the high places, just like in Israel spoke of in Ezekiel, Jeremiah,and Isaiah,etc. In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 8, 2005

Things are starting to bubble to the surface about the Iraq war, the reasons for, the actions taken, and the results. Here is one example of actions taken, is this of Christ or Satan?BBCUS 'uses incendiary arms' in Iraq Italian state TV, Rai, has broadcast a documentary accusing the US military of using white phosphorus bombs against civilians in the Iraqi city of Falluja. Rai says this amounts to the illegal use of chemical arms, though the bombs are considered incendiary devices. Eyewitnesses and ex-US soldiers say the weapon was used in built-up areas in the insurgent-held city. The US military denies this, but admits using white phosphorus bombs in Iraq to illuminate battlefields. Washington is not a signatory of an international treaty restricting the use of white phosphorus devices. Spontaneously flammable chemical used for battlefield illumination Contact with particles causes burning of skin and fleshUse of incendiary weapons prohibited for attacking civilians (Protocol III of Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons) Transmission of the documentary comes a day after the arrival of Iraqi President Jalal Talabani on a five-day official visit to Italy. It also coincides with the first anniversary of the US-led assault on Falluja, which displaced most of the city's 300,000 population and left many of its buildings destroyed. The documentary was shown on Rai's rolling news channel, with a warning that the some of the footage was disturbing. The future of the 3,000-strong Italian peacekeeping contingent in Iraq is the subject of a political tug-of-war, says the BBC's David Willey in Rome. 'Destroyed evidence' The documentary begins with formerly classified footage of the Americans using napalm bombs during the Vietnam war. It then shows a series of photographs from Falluja of corpses with the flesh burnt off but clothes still intact - which it says is consistent with the effects of white phosphorus on humans. Jeff Englehart, described as a former US soldier who served in Falluja, tells of how he heard orders for white phosphorus to be deployed over military radio - and saw the results."Burned bodies, burned women, burned children; white phosphorus kills indiscriminately... When it makes contact with skin, then it's absolutely irreversible damage, burning flesh to the bone, Last December, the US state department issued a denial of what it called "widespread myths" about the use of illegal weapons in Falluja. "Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. US forces have used them very sparingly in Falluja, for illumination purposes. They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters," the US statement said. However, the Rai film also alleges that Washington has systematically attempted to destroy filmed evidence of the alleged use of white phosphorus on civilians in Falluja. Italian public opinion has been consistently against the war and the Rai documentary can only reinforce calls for a pullout of Italian soldiers as soon as possible, our correspondent says. Both the Italian government and opposition leaders are talking about a phased withdrawal in 2006. President Talabani and the US say the continued presence of multi-national forces in Iraq is essential.

rookie Nov 8, 2005

Bloomsberg Powell Aide Wilkerson Says Bush Policymaking `Courts Disaster' Oct. 21 (Bloomberg) -- The Bush administration has ``courted disaster'' in Iraq, Iran and North Korea and is so inept that it could not cope with a major domestic disaster, according to Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to former Secretary of State Colin Powell. Wilkerson said Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld formed a ``cabal'' to formulate U.S. foreign policy in isolation from other government institutions, seriously weakening the nation's decision-making process. ``If something comes along that is truly serious, truly serious, something like a nuclear weapon going off in a major American city, or something like a major pandemic, you are going to see the ineptitude of this government in a way that will take you back to the Declaration of Independence,'' Wilkerson said in a speech Oct. 19 to the New America Foundation, a Washington research institute. The Bush administration has ``flummoxed'' the interagency decision-making process, Wilkerson said. He chastised Congress for abandoning oversight and warned that, without more accountability, ``it's going to get even more dangerous than it already is.'' Wilkerson, 60, left office in January along with Powell at the end of President George W. Bush's first term. A retired colonel, he is a former director of the U.S. Marine Corps War College and a former associate director of policy planning at the State Department. He also served under Powell when Powell was chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs under President George H.W. Bush. Other Critics Wilkerson's criticism echoes that of others who've left the current administration, including former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill and counter-terrorism adviser Richard Clarke, although not Powell, who has remained largely silent. Wilkerson said Powell was ``not happy'' with his decision to speak out. Telephoned requests for comment to the White House, Pentagon and State Department were not immediately returned. Opinion polls show Americans broadly dissatisfied with Bush's stewardship. A USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll released Oct. 17 found just 39 percent of U.S. adults approve of how he's handling his job, the lowest level of his presidency. On Oct. 19, Republicans as well as Democrats on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee attacked Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice for more than three hours for failing to present a clear strategy for bringing troops home from Iraq, and they accused her of presenting an unrealistically optimistic picture of the situation there. Rice `Extremely Weak' Wilkerson said Rice, as national security adviser during Bush's first term, was ``extremely weak.'' Rather than ensure a broad airing of views within the White House, ``she made a decision that she would side with the president to build her intimacy with the president.'' She did not play the role of ``the balancer'' or ``the person who would make sure that every dissent got to the president that made sense,'' Wilkerson said. What ``I saw for four-plus years was a case that I have never seen in my studies of aberrations, bastardizations, perturbations, changes to the national security decision-making process,'' he said. ``What I saw was a cabal between the vice president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made,'' he said, according to a transcript posted on the New America Foundation Web site. Wilkerson did not respond to e-mails seeking elaboration on his comments. `Why?' Wilkerson was scathing in his criticism of the Bush administration's foreign policy decisions. He said he still cannot explain why the U.S. invaded Iraq. ``So many decisions'' defy explanation, he said. ``Why did we wait three years to talk to the North Koreans? Why did we wait four-plus years to say we at least back the EU-3 approach to Iran? Why did we create the national director of intelligence and add further to the bureaucracy, which was what caused the problem in the first place?'' While Wilkerson's criticism is his strongest to date, and perhaps among the strongest of any former Bush administration official, it's not his first attack on Bush's foreign policymaking. In an interview with GQ magazine last May, Wilkerson likened former deputy secretary of defense Paul Wolfowitz to the Russian revolutionary Vladimir Lenin. ``I don't care whether Utopians are Vladimir Lenin in a sealed train going to Moscow or Paul Wolfowitz. Utopians, I don't like. You're never going to bring Utopia, and you're going to hurt a lot of people in the process trying to do it.'' He also described U.S. sanctions on Cuba as the ``dumbest policy on the face of the earth.'' Did you vote for Cheney? How about Rumsfield? How about Wolfowitz? Did you know that these men represent a group that is labeled Neo Cons. Did you know that the root of their thinking goes back to the McGovern days?Did you ever see that the these men want to have a perpetual war and impose democracy by the use of war? Is this not part of Humanism? In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 8, 2005

Vice President Cheney is fighting behind the scenes to veto this legislation sponsored by McCain of Arizona. McCain vows to add torture ban to all major Senate legislation John HendrenLos Angeles TimesNov. 5, 2005 12:00 AM WASHINGTON - Girding for a potential fight with the Bush administration, supporters of a ban on torturing prisoners of war by U.S. interrogators threatened Friday to include the prohibition in nearly every bill the Senate considers until it becomes law. The no-torture wording, which proponents say is supported by majorities in both houses of Congress, was included last month in the Senate's version of a defense spending bill. The measure's final form is being negotiated with the House, and the White House is pushing for either a rewording or deletion of the torture ban. On Friday, at the urging of Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz, the Senate by a voice vote added the ban to a related defense bill as a backup. Speaking from the Senate floor, McCain said, "If necessary - and I sincerely hope it is not - I and the co-sponsors of this amendment will seek to add it to every piece of important legislation voted on in the Senate until the will of a substantial bipartisan majority in both houses of Congress prevails. Let no one doubt our determination." The ban would establish the Army Field Manual as the guiding authority in interrogations and prohibit "cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment" of prisoners. The Bush administration has sought to exempt the CIA from the ban. McCain's stature in the fight is enhanced because he was tortured while he was a prisoner during the Vietnam War. When the Senate voted to include the ban in the defense spending bill last month, it was approved 90-9. The House's version of the spending bill does not contain the torture ban. But Rep. John Murtha of Pennsylvania, the ranking Democrat on the House Defense Appropriations subcommittee, earlier this week urged his colleagues to accept the Senate provision. The provision would reverse the Bush administration's contention that conditions placed on the treatment of prisoners of war in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and other international treaties signed by the United States do not apply to foreigners held overseas. The prisoners "can, apparently, be treated inhumanely," McCain said. "This means that America is the only country in the world that asserts a legal right to engage in cruel and inhumane treatment." Bush initially threatened to veto the "must-pass" spending bill for the Pentagon if it contained the Senate provision. Later, he sought simply to exempt the CIA from the ban. McCain called that proposal "totally unacceptable." Opponents of the McCain language contend that setting no-torture ground rules would signal to prisoners that they have little to fear during interrogations, discouraging them from providing information. Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita had said Thursday that prisoners captured during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq "know what we do by virtue of interrogation manuals and procedures, And they are trained to resist." "So there's a perception that the kind of rigidity that comes with these kinds of amendments could restrict the president's flexibility in the global war on terror," DiRita said. "And anything that restricts our ability to engage this highly agile adversary is not desirable." James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. In ChristJeff

sermonindex Nov 9, 2005

these are evil days indeed, and please please DON'T call me an "evangelical".......follower of Jesus...yes!! that's what I am, Praise God for His grace in saving a wretch like me.neil

rookie Nov 9, 2005

Br Neil wrote:DON'T call me an "evangelical".This thougth brings to mind this Psalm 1.Psa. 1:1 \tBlessed is the man\tWho walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,\t\tNor stands in the path of sinners,\t\tNor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 \tBut his delight is in the law of the LORD,\t\tAnd in His law he meditates day and night. 3 \tHe shall be like a tree\t\tPlanted by the rivers of water,\t\tThat brings forth its fruit in its season,\t\tWhose leaf also shall not wither;\tAnd whatever he does shall prosper. 4 \tThe ungodly are not so,\tBut are like the chaff which the wind drives away. 5 \tTherefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,\tNor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 \tFor the LORD knows the way of the righteous,\tBut the way of the ungodly shall perish. The sinners of the congregation shall not stand with the righteous. The Constantinian Christian suffers from drought because he is not planted by the river of water. He instead chooses to dwell in the habitation of men.I too have come to see Evangelical = Conservative = Lover of this world.In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 9, 2005

As I have been contemplating the times in which we are in, this thought of boiling to the surface continues to occuppy my mind. According to Scripture we are given examples in the OT of how God has given certain kings the spiritual gifts of knowledge and wisdom. King Solomon, Joshua, Hezekiah and others received commands from the Lord in the ways that they should minister to His people.With this precept in mind, I then began to think of our current times. We know that those who govern have adopted a new philosophy of when we as a nation should make war. We now say that it is right to preemptively strike those people who are preceived to be a threat to our nation. With this, the present kings and princes have told the people that Iraq had WMDs and was engaged with Osama Bin Laden in the support of terrorism. Now as the facts begin to boil to the surface we find that this is not true.So looking at this situation from a Scriptural perspective, did God give these current kings and princes the spiritual gifts of knowledge and wisdom or did Satan promote a lie?The word of God is the only means by which we can know our heart's condition. The word of God is the only means by which we can decern what is evil and what is good.What do you see?In ChristJeff

sermonindex Nov 9, 2005

What do you see?LIGHT has no fellowship with DARKness!

sermonindex Nov 9, 2005

Oh! and I meant to say Amen to 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,And in His law he meditates day and night. 3 He shall be like a treePlanted by the rivers of water,That brings forth its fruit in its season,Whose leaf also shall not wither;And whatever he does shall prosper. AMEN and AMEN and AMEN.

rookie Nov 9, 2005

Yesterday an Italian news agency released this testimony of what happened in Fallujah. This is the essences of war. http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/body.aspDan. 7:25 \tHe shall speak pompous words against the Most High,\tShall persecute the saints of the Most High,\tAnd shall intend to change times and law.\tThen the saints shall be given into his hand\tFor a time and times and half a time. By what law do the kings and princes of this war live by? What is changing?What do you see?In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Nov 10, 2005

``If something comes along that is truly serious, truly serious, something like a nuclear weapon going off in a major American city, or something like a major pandemic, you are going to see the ineptitude of this government in a way that will take you back to the Declaration of Independence,'' Wilkerson said in a speech Oct. 19 to the New America Foundation, a Washington research institute.this is sobering and it is only a matter of time...it will be sooner than we think that something beyond 9-11 will occur here. let us fall on our faces and repent, repent and repent some more.

rookie Nov 10, 2005

U.S. Trade Deficit Hits High on StormsThursday November 10, 1:52 pm ET By Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer U.S. Trade Deficit Hits All-Time High of $66.1B; Storm-Related Jobless Claims Increase WASHINGTON (AP) -- The trade deficit soared to a record in September as the Gulf Coast hurricanes helped push America's foreign oil bill to an all-time high. The politically sensitive deficit with China also set a record.The Commerce Department reported Thursday that the deficit jumped to $66.1 billion in September, 11.4 percent higher than the $59.3 billion imbalance recorded in August. It was a far bigger increase than analysts had been expecting and reflected in part a record $23.8 billion in oil purchases as the price skyrocketed, reflecting widespread shutdowns of production facilities following hurricanes Katrina and Rita.So far this year, the deficit is running at an annual rate of $706.4 billion. This puts the country on track to far surpass the old deficit record of $617.6 billion set last year and gives critics ammunition to argue that President Bush's trade policies are not workingThe king and princes of this country go around the world trying to promote FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS. The nations around the world are beginning to reject what the U.S. is selling. Last week Latin America told our king to go home. This week we find that we have set a record deficit in trade with the world. Why is this occuring?Here is one example.The policies of the last 25 years have promoted free trade which removes tariffs for imported goods. The most appealing case before us is how this policy is changing our relationship with China.U.S. Corporations have shutdown factories in the U.S. and moved their manufacturing to the provinces in China. Why? There are four reasons that have the same underlying goal of to maximize profits now. How do these corporations maximize their profit potential by moving to China? First, by moving to China, the corporations save 90% of their costs associated with regulations regarding environmental and personnel issues. Secondly, the corporation seek to minimize labor costs. And thirdly, because of the free trade agreements, the products that are manufactured in China by U.S. Corporations are then allowed to be shipped back into the U.S with minimal tariffs. And finally, these same U.S. corporations do not pay taxes on profits as they are required to if the products were produced and sold here in the U.S. So now China enjoys a trade surplus with the U.S. that is ever increasing. China then takes this surplus and buys from regional nations like Iran and its oil, Korea, India, and Japan. This event has begun to transform the Asian continent in terms of economic interests. China is establishing itself as the dominant economic and soon to follow political force in that part of the world. So what, one might say. The economic growth in Asia of 6 to 9 percent anually far exceeds the growth of Western Europe and the Americas. Why is this happening? The king and princes worship mammon. The philosophies of man based on greed have blinded many with the wine of fornication with the Great whore Babylon. According to Scripture this wine makes drunk the masses. Drink this wine and wars will be fought. Why do we fight in Iraq? Is it not to establish our presence in that part of the world? As the economy of China grows in sophistication so will it's demand for natural resources like oil. So where will the U.S. be in the next 25 years? Where will the military/industrial complex pick it's next fight? Is there still hope? Does this stir your soul? Maybe some will come to know the peace that Abraham had when he looked upon the ground on which he stood and said to himself, " I am a pilgrim." "This world and its hopes have no hold on me." I have a heavenly country where my Savior waits for a time of refreshing and renewal. In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 11, 2005

Eph. 5:3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Eph. 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 11 "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them."How many are willing to accept what is of the darkness? How many still look for security found in the sons of disobedience? In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Nov 11, 2005

bro Jeffthw word says that the love of money is the root f all kinds of evil, i had no concept really of this as i was younger. however in seeing all the wird things that go on in politics, corperations, churches even and other institutions i think i'm beginning to inderstand what this means. basically people will do whatever for money and these coperations moving their operations overseas and saving billions on manufacturing here but selling the products to us for get that once the middle class is all out of work, they will go down coz noone will be left to buy their products. all these additional burdens on the economy will eventually cause it to collapse and all this prosperity nonsense will be exposed. some people will come running to God after that and shall surely be saved. there will be those who are so attached to all this they won't let go. i don't know about y'all but the Lord has shown me how pittiful this existence we hold so dear is. wake up, work, run here and there, pay bills etc...surely there is something better!we are pilgrims as the word says and i'm saying this as a man who is LONGING and WEEPING for home... brethren let those who have ears hear and repent now before the fire comes. let us be concerned with the kingdom of God which is everlasting rather than building earthly empires which the Lord will surely destroy.let us repent, repent and repent some more before an all holy God!

rookie Nov 12, 2005

Bro,It is a pitiful experience when one has tasted the goodness of His word. How good it is to be a pilgrim. This is true freedom.In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 12, 2005

By Robert ParryIt was and still is about the oil, stupid!When Colin Powell’s former chief of staff Lawrence Wilkerson publicly decried the Bush administration’s bungling of U.S. foreign policy, the focus of the press coverage was on Wilkerson’s depiction of a “cabal” headed by Vice President Dick Cheney that had hijacked the decision-making process.Largely overlooked were Wilkerson’s frank admissions about the importance of oil in justifying a long-term U.S. military intervention in Iraq. “The other thing that no one ever likes to talk about is SUVs and oil and consumption,” the retired Army colonel said in a speech on Oct. 19.While bemoaning the administration’s incompetence in implementing the war strategy, Wilkerson said the U.S. government now had no choice but to succeed in Iraq or face the necessity of conquering the Middle East within the next 10 years to ensure access to the region’s oil supplies.“We had a discussion in (the State Department’s Office of) Policy Planning about actually mounting an operation to take the oilfields of the Middle East, internationalize them, put them under some sort of U.N. trusteeship and administer the revenues and the oil accordingly,” Wilkerson said. “That’s how serious we thought about it.”The centrality of Iraq’s oil in Wilkerson’s blunt comments contrasted with three years of assurances from the Bush administration that the war had almost nothing to do with oil.When critics have called the Iraq War a case of “blood for oil,” George W. Bush’s defenders have dismissed them as “conspiracy theorists.” The Bush defenders insisted the president went to war out of concern about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction and Saddam Hussein’s links to al-Qaeda, neither of which turned out to be true. Later, Bush cited humanitarian concerns and the desire to spread democracy.Always left out of the administration’s war equation – or referenced only obliquely – was the fact that Iraq sits atop one of the world’s largest known oil reserves at a time when international competition is intensifying to secure reliable oil supplies.But Wilkerson is not the first senior Bush administration official to cite the importance of oil in the U.S. calculus toward Iraq. Former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill made similar assertions in 2004.O’Neill, who was fired in late 2002 after disagreeing with Bush on tax cuts and Iraq, told author Ron Suskind that Bush’s first National Security Council meeting just days into his presidency included a discussion of invading Iraq. O’Neill said even at that early date, the message from Bush was “find a way to do this.”Oil and Iraq were soon mixing in the administration’s thinking about energy and politics.On Feb. 3, 2001 – only two weeks after Bush took office – an NSC document instructed NSC officials to cooperate with Cheney’s Energy Task Force because it was “melding” two previously unrelated areas of policy: “the review of operational policies towards rogue states” and “actions regarding the capture of new and existing oil and gas fields.” Before this disclosure, which appeared in The New Yorker three years later, it was believed that Cheney’s secretive task force was focusing on ways to reduce environmental regulations and fend off the Kyoto protocol on global warming.But the NSC document suggested that the Bush administration from its first days recognized the linkage between ousting unreliable leaders like Saddam Hussein and securing oil reserves for future U.S. consumption. In other words, the Cheney task force appears to have had a military component to “capture” oil fields in “rogue states.” [For more on the NSC document, see The New Yorker, Feb. 16, 2004.]After al-Qaeda’s Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, Bush had the political opening he needed to turn his designs on Iraq into reality. Though there was no credible evidence connecting Hussein to al-Qaeda and Sept. 11, Bush and Cheney made the linkage anyway.Active preparations for war with Iraq were soon underway. Behind the scenes, O’Neill said he watched as the administration refined its plans for how to divvy up Iraq’s oil reserves after the invasion.“Documents were being prepared by the Defense Intelligence Agency, (Defense Secretary Donald) Rumsfeld’s intelligence arm, mapping Iraq’s oil fields and exploration areas and listing companies that might be interested in leveraging the precious asset,” Suskind wrote in The Price of Loyalty.Beyond giving U.S. firms access to Iraq’s oil, the Bush administration recognized how the oil could help induce both allies and rivals to back broader U.S. policies.“One document, headed ‘Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts,’ lists companies from 30 countries – including France, Germany, Russia and the United Kingdom – their specialties, bidding histories, and in some cases their particular areas of interest,” Suskind wrote in recounting O’Neill’s observations.“An attached document maps Iraq with markings for ‘supergiant oilfield,’ ‘other oilfield,’ and ‘earmarked for production sharing,’ while demarking the largely undeveloped southwest of the country into nine ‘blocks’ to designate areas for future exploration. “The desire to ‘dissuade’ countries from engaging in ‘asymmetrical challenges’ to the United States … matched with plans for how the world’s second largest oil reserve might be divided among the world’s contractors made for an irresistible combination, O’Neill later said.”In pronouncements to the American people, however, Bush and other administration officials denied that oil was a reason for the Iraq invasion. Instead they stressed the danger posed by Iraq’s supposed WMD, then the humanitarian interest in removing Hussein, then encouraging democracy to flourish in the region, and finally preventing the spread of Islamic extremism.Air Force Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, who was among the career military officers pulled into the war planning, said she and her fellow officers were troubled by how the American people were manipulated.“Many of us in the Pentagon, conservatives and liberals alike, felt that this (Iraq) agenda, whatever its flaws or merits, had never been openly presented to the American people,” she wrote. “Instead, the public story line was a fear-peddling and confusing set of messages, designed to take Congress and the country into a war of executive choice, a war based on false pretenses.” [See Salon.com’s “The New Pentagon Papers.”] Wilkerson’s CritiqueBy contrast, Wilkerson openly acknowledged the oil factor both in explaining the U.S. invasion and in justifying the need to remain in Iraq to ensure that any new government is not hostile to American interests.Despite his earlier doubts about the wisdom of invading, the former chief of staff to Secretary of State Powell said the Middle East’s oil reserves makes withdrawal from Iraq more dangerous than leaving Vietnam three decades ago.“We can’t leave Iraq; we simply can’t,” Wilkerson said in his Oct. 19 speech to the New America Foundation in Washington.“I’m not evaluating the decision to go to war. That’s a different matter. But we’re there, we’ve done it, and we cannot leave. I would submit to you that if we leave precipitously or we leave in a way that doesn’t leave something there we can trust, if we do that, we will mobilize the nation, put five million men and women under arms and go back and take the Middle East within a decade. That’s what we’ll have to do.”Wilkerson made clear that what made Iraq such a strategic concern was the oil.“We consume 60 percent of the world’s resources,” he said. “We have an economy and we have a society that is built on the consumption of those resources. We better get fast at work changing the foundation – and I don’t see us fast at work on that, by the way, another failure of this administration, in my mind – or we better be ready to take those assets (in the Middle East).James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Be free in ChristJeff

IRONMAN Nov 13, 2005

bro Jeffit is indeed the most wonderful thing to be free in Christ! no longer bound by the things of this world. i see all this politicking and the Lord has shown me that much of it is a farce to placate the masses by speeches etc and it angers my spirit. what's sad is that so many people buy into it...i see people ripping and running trying to secure this and that thing for the future and perhaps a few think i'm crazy for being unconcerned. bro i've pledged my life and allegiance to heaven and that peace that paul talks of in philippiams is so real to me now. all this scrambling about for security is due to a lack of reliance on God.but happy are those that He has graciously allowed to learn to lean on Him, His grace shall be sufficient. it's amazing how much shadiness goes on behind the scenes...however what is done in the dark shall surely come to light...

rookie Nov 13, 2005

Brother FaraiContinue to be that light in the dark place. Preach the good news of peace to those who still hold onto what is "seen," what is "the country he or she belongs to."God BlessJeff

ginnyrose Nov 13, 2005

Jeff,What are you driving at?You made a big case in detailing how lies and deception has been a driving force in national politics and in the decision making process. What about it on the local level? I read recently how some officials declares Mississippi to have so such corruption among its elected persons making them among the highest in the nation. Without that information, I have been coming to the point where I am thinking I should not even vote in local politics! You look at the canditates and try to decide which one is the better of the two. I have done jury duty, one being a murder case. There was jury tampering done and the judge was said to have been bribed. (He did not run in the next election, citing personal ambitions outside of being judge). Jeff, I can not do anything about national politics. But what about the local level, where I live, where it is reported to be so corrupt? (Oh, BTW, the USA justice department is looking into the way elections are run in our county and are on the brink or have -am not certain - of filing some lawsuits which will be very interesting to watch... reverse discrimination, among other things.) And neither am I about to run for office. We have been told of honest people who have tried and withdrew from running because they complained of the corruption there, that an honest person can not be elected. What do you think a person should do?ginnyrose

rookie Nov 14, 2005

Sister ginnyrose wrote: We have been told of honest people who have tried and withdrew from running because they complained of the corruption there, that an honest person can not be elected. What do you think a person should do?The concept of this thread has been to dwell on what is corrupt. I have strayed numerous times from this core thought. Scripture teaches us through examples how man thinks and how God thinks. The first is corrupt, the second is incorruptible. Many times we as believers only dwell on Scripture which speaks of God's grace. Very few seem to go beyond this point and learn from what God has given us to understand the lie. Satan is the father of lies. The writer of Hebrews writes, Heb. 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. To me the milk of the word describes the grace of God. The meat of the word describes the lie. The carnal man, the babe in Christ, does not desire to see the ugliness of the lie that still remains in him. What does it mean to worship the beast? What does it mean to have the mark of the beast? Does it not speak of those who look to man for their safety? Scripture teaches us that this will be. The antichrist is a seed of Satan. This precept is given to us in Genesis 3:15. All men who do not repent remain the seed of Satan. So who can we trust?The king and princes of this country are promising to establish "democracy" in the middle east. They are selling us a lie. Is this not the religion of "Humanism." All forms of human government are corruptible. The book of Daniel teaches us this concept. Yet I see so many that profess Christ, and yet I see the evidence of their hope still remains in man. I see the sea of men stirred up by the subversive attacks of Satan. He is a destroyer of men, nothing more. You ask, "What do I think a person should do?"I have no wisdom to share as to what one member or another member of the body should do. Only this do I know. Paul points everyone to Christ. Phil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Phil. 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. What should we do? We who grow into maturity should look to God to reveal His will. What is the substance of what we should hope for? 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 14, 2005

Sister ginnyrose wrote:What are you driving at?To encourage others to go deeper into Scripture. To encourage others to seek understanding which frees us from the bondage of the lies. Paul sights this reason for the stumbling of the Corinthian church.2 Corinthians 6: 12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. 13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open. Paul identifies the source of their trouble. They are "restricted" by their "own affections." The underlying theme of Scripture points to the spiritual battle that permeates the world that is seen. All are born under the influence of Satan. All are given a choice to remain or to choose to be set apart. What do we choose to be yoked to? The lie or the Truth?God desires that all should repent and that none should die. This means that God works in all individuals to give none an excuse, but He gives all a choice. In ChristJeff

ginnyrose Nov 16, 2005

One thing is certain, we can not look to secular government to provide us with a utopia on earth. It likely is more of a mircle there is any semblance of law and order considering the corruption in high places. You are right. There is nothing in secular government that can ever take the place of Jesus. Too many are looking for government to do for them which it can not do and never had the ability to do. But I still wonder since my experience as a juror whether it was even worthwhile. I learned a lot....do appreciate the court process but when it is tainted by corruption, one cannot even make a difference. Or so it seems...ginnyrose

rookie Nov 16, 2005

For the next few additions I would like to quote varios parts of a book writen by Patrick Buchanan, Where The Right Went Wrong, How Neoconservatives Subverted the Reagan Revolution and Hijacked the Bush Presidency.Page 23 At the Reagan Library in November of 1999, candidate Bush had repudiated the truimphalist rhetoric of the Clinton administration with all its braying about our being the "indespensable nation." "Let us have an American foreign policy that reflects American character," said Bush. "The modesty of true strength. The humility of real greatness. This is the strong heart of America. And this will be the spirit of my administration."In a presidential debate with Al Gore, Bush had said:"One way for us to end up being viewed as the ugly American is for us to go around the world saying, we do it this way, so should you ... The United States mus be humble...humble in how we treat nations that are figuring out how to chart their own course." This was the conservative the nation had elected president. In the following posts I will document a speech given by President Bush at West Point June 2, 2002. As a prelude to this, please remember that first after 9/11, Bush declared war on terrorism and any country that had established relationships with terrorist groups. Here is a quote from that time."America has a message to the nations of the world; If you harbor terrorists, you are terrorists. If you train or arm a terrorist, you're a terrorist, and you will be held accountable by the United States..."Time passes and now here is a quote from President Bush's state of the union address in 2002.page 18"We'll be deliberate, yet time is not on our side. I will not wait on events, while danges gather. I will not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons."With this threat, President Bush stunned many who had supported his leadership. What did Iran, Iraq, and North Korea have to do with 9/11? Why was he widening the war by issuing ultimattums to Iran, Iraq, and North Korea before Al Queda and its colaborators had been eradicated? Whe had Iraq, Iran, or North Korea threatened America with "the world's most destructive weapons?" The Bush threat of war upon nations that had not attacked us was unprecedented. Truman never theathened war to stop Stalin from building atomic bombs after Russia tested one in 1949. LBJ did not threaten war on China when it exploded a nuclear weapon in 1964. While it had been U.S. policy to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, Russia, Britain, France, China, Israel, India, and Pakistan had all aquired nuclear weapons without serious retribution for the United States. ......Still, President Bush had no authority to issue those threats. The Constitution does not empower the president to launch preventive wars. There is a new doctrine, The Bush Doctrine. Let us see where the king and his princes are leading us.In ChristJeff

sermonindex Nov 16, 2005

Yet I see so many that profess Christ, and yet I see the evidence of their hope still remains in man.Thank you for this lucid comment. Basically, you're saying democracy is a man-made man-worshipping device?

Compton Nov 16, 2005

Let us see where the king and his princes are leading us.Actually Jeff, I'm beginning to be curious where you are leading us!;-) We know the days are dark. Other then prayer...in your opinion is there a right choice these days? Or is there only wrong choices left to us anymore? Are conservative evangelicals guilty of something here? Are you advocating something political? Or boycotting the whole affair of man-government and becoming nuetral or apolitical, claiming heavenly citizenship? Are you cursing the darkness or are you suggesting there is a better direction for American Christians that the church is overlooking? Are you talking in the tradition of Jeremiah, saying that our nation is finished..and to prepare to be chastised by other nations? Or are recalling the prophecies of John or Daniel...warning us that these are the very last moments before the coming of Jesus.These are dark days indeed...is there more to understand here? Just curious and maybe dense.MC

rookie Nov 16, 2005

I have come to a place in my walk where I see things more and more through Scripture. What I mean is that the light of the truth causes me to rejoice in the grace of God. However this light also brings out the darkness of this world. This is the work of the Holy Spirit is it not? John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.1 John 1:14 I have written to you, fathers,\t\tBecause you have known Him who is from the beginning.\t\tI have written to you, young men,\t\tBecause you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,\t\tAnd you have overcome the wicked one. Do you see that the work of the Holy Spirit enables those who mature in Christ to overcome the wicked one. There is a spiritual battle to be fought by those who have been trained by the word to discern between what is good and evil. This come to those who grow strong in the word of God. I see the lie of Satan all around me. I perceive the illusions created by him to deceive. How else could we fight the good fight, if the Holy Spirit wasn't equiping us in the knowledge and wisdom preparing us to go to battle? So to answer the question recently asked of me, I myself do not vote. Yet, I do not know what God's will is for others who are my Master's servants. This is where I am at. This is just a thought, If I had voted for President Bush, I also voted for Dick Cheney, Rumsfield, Rice, Wolfowitz, Pearlman, and how many other nonbelievers? In this next few sections of these posts the object is to reveal the nature of the decisions that are made and what that means for those who live under their rule.In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Nov 16, 2005

bro Jeffi kinda feel the same way about voting and/or political involvement. i personally don't feel led to vote or anything like that but the Lord wouldn't have me ignorant of what's going on so i keep up with the news etc. i voted for kerry in the last election more because i disagreed with President Bush's policies but the more i reflect on it, the more i see that for me that was something that came from my flesh and not the will of God.bro mike you asked if bro Jeff felt like Jeremiah in that our nation was done for or like daniel. i'm feeling a lot more like Jeremiah...very soon our nation will come crashing down however for those who have their trust in God through Christ and have Holy Spirit in them enabling them to do God's will, they will want for nothing. as Far as i've seen in scripture all those who serve the Lord never want for anything. am i worried or scared? not at all? should i be? not at all because the Lord said He's sustain me in His work, i buy it and that's that really.at the end of the day the right choice is doing whatever God asks, for me it's keeping up with the goings on and going back and forth with God about it. let us all seek the Father's will with more diligence in these days lest we do what seems right in man's eyes and grieve the Father...Let us fall on our faces and repent, repent and repent some more.

rookie Nov 16, 2005

Sister Dorcas wrote:Thank you for this lucid comment. Basically, you're saying democracy is a man-made man-worshipping device?Yes, man has created another form of a religion rooted in Humanism. The evidence of what many christian hope for is revealed in the zeal for which they strive to promote democracy. The evidence is revealed by the passion that overflows from their hearts. Here is a quote from the book concerning what the king and his princes worship.page34"Liberty is both the plan of Heaven for humanity, and the best hope for progress here on Earth," said President Bush. Christians used to believe salvation was Heaven's plan for humanity and Jesus Christ was the way, the truth, and the life. Neoconservatives have made democracy their god. But why is George W. Bush falling down and worshiping this golden calf?Do you see how deceptive the lie is? Do you see how this lie is interwoven into everything around us. The illusions are strong and only the love of the truth will save you from the effects of the lie.Doesn't the whole world in the end worship a man who promises peace through government? What type of govenment might that be? Democracy?Read DanielIn ChristJeff

Compton Nov 16, 2005

Thanks for the reply Rookie and Ironman. To quote Charles Dickens let me ask, "Are these the shadows of the things that Will be, or are they shadows of things that May be, only.". To further quote, "Why show me this, if I am past all hope?`Good Spirit,' he pursued, as down upon the ground he fell before it:' Your nature intercedes for me, and pities me. Assure me that I yet may change these shadows you have shown me, by an altered life"What do you guys think? MC

rookie Nov 16, 2005

Brother MikeI see now the reason for your question in terms of Jeremiah or Daniel. I see what you are saying in terms of Dickens.I am also currently reading a book called "The Last Apocalipes" (SP?). About 1000 AD things looked then like they do now. The Vikings were constantly terrorising the various towns along the coast of Great Britain. Nothing seemed good but evil was all around. Yet we know that God was at work then and eventually God's blessings did come. I guess the way I am beginning to look at things is as I quoted from the book by Buchanan where he states:"Christians used to believe salvation was Heaven's plan for humanity and Jesus Christ was the way, the truth, and the life." What if I share the gospel with my neighbor? What if my neighbor repents and comes to know Christ as I? What if he shares his hope with his neighbor? The law only condemns, it is the law of the Spirit in Christ that converts the mind and heart. This is the only way corruption will be rooted out. This is the only way to have hope for progress on this earth.In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 16, 2005

The question of where I am leading is rooted in where I have been. As I struggled with Scripture, as I struggled with the American dream of my father, as I began to see the reasons for what men struggle for, as I myself sought to find peace in this world where hypocracy and lies jaded my idealism, the experience realized from this struggle this I share. The word of God paints a picture of where a disciple will be as he walks day by day with his Lord. The struggles that have come into my life because of Scripture have affected the substance of my hopes. The meat of the word of God attacks all those things which relate to hopes that are rooted in this world. The choice to submit to His leading or to hold onto the vain traditions of men can really be gut wrenching. There is a inner struggle that between the old man and the Spirit. The Spirit yearns jealously within us. The nature of these times of struggle are consuming. I imagine that it might be similar to the what some go through when a family is broken by divource. I believe that this is spoken of in Mark 4:16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. The trials and tribulations "arises for the word's sake,"...I believe this speaks of what I have experienced in my own life. There are trials which God brings to you to show you the condition of your own heart. He gives you a choice, do you believe Me in this matter or will you continue to honor men? Do you fear Me or men? As you submit to Him you will find you are not in agreement with the world. The world hates what you begin to love because He is good and this brings to light the wickedness and emptiness that exists in fallen man. My Lord has at times given me understanding of situations that exist in these times. At first I did not want to accept but as I submit I see a glimmer of the truth that was once hidden by my unwillingness to believe. The old man refuses to see, he wants to remain blind. This allows him to continue to live in the ways of this world seeking friendship and not tribulation. But my Lord and His grace have overcome the world in me in many different aspects of what I once hope for. Everyone's salvation is unique to the individual. God is the only One who can repair what is broken. I believe he has equipt me in certain ways to reveal the lies of Satan and how it impacts the walk of my fellow brothers and sisters. That is all I know. I don't know where I am going I only know where I have been.In ChristJeff

Compton Nov 16, 2005

it is the law of the Spirit in Christ that converts the mind and heart. This is the only way corruption will be rooted out. This is the only way to have hope for progress on this earth.Amen Jeff! Thank you for clarifying this...If we believe that conservatism will make us moral and righteous or liberalism will make us loving and compassionate we are tragically and fatally mistaken. Only each heart born again, indwelt by the Spirit of God, and a renewed mind, awash in the Spirit of God will produce a righteous and (edit: even compassionate) nation. MC

rookie Nov 16, 2005

This article is a confirmation of an Italian documentary that brought to light that the U.S. used white phosphorus as a weapon against the Iraqis in Fallujah. The web site address is probably on the previous page or two. By BBC NewsRepublished from BBC NewsThe Pentagon has come clean and said that 'White Phosphorus' was used in IraqThe Pentagon has confirmed that US troops used white phosphorus during last year’s offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja.“It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants,” spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC – though not against civilians, he said.The US earlier denied it had been used in Falluja at all.BBC defence correspondent Paul Wood says having to retract its denial is a public relations disaster for the US.Col Venable denied that the substance – which can cause burning of the flesh – constituted a banned chemical weapon. Washington is not a signatory of an international treaty restricting the use of white phosphorus devices.Col Venable said a statement by the US state department that white phosphorus had not been used was based on “poor information”. ‘Incendiary’The US-led assault on Falluja – a stronghold of the Sunni insurgency west of Baghdad – displaced most of the city’s 300,000 population and left many of its buildings destroyed.Col Venable told the BBC’s PM radio programme that the US army used white phosphorus incendiary munitions “primarily as obscurants, for smokescreens or target marking in some cases”.“However it is an incendiary weapon and may be used against enemy combatants.” And he said it had been used in Falluja, but it was “conventional munition”, not a chemical weapon.It is not “outlawed or illegal”, Col Venable said.He said US forces could use white phosphorus rounds to flush enemy troops out of covered positions.“The combined effects of the fire and smoke – and in some case the terror brought about by the explosion on the ground – will drive them out of the holes so that you can kill them with high explosives,” he said.‘Particularly nasty’White phosphorus is highly flammable and ignites on contact with oxygen. If the substance hits someone’s body, it will burn until deprived of oxygen.Globalsecurity.org, a defence website, says: “Phosphorus burns on the skin are deep and painful… These weapons are particularly nasty because white phosphorus continues to burn until it disappears… it could burn right down to the bone.”A spokesman at the UK Ministry of Defence said the use of white phosphorus was permitted in battle in cases where there were no civilians near the target area.But Professor Paul Rodgers of the University of Bradford department of peace studies said white phosphorus could be considered a chemical weapon if deliberately aimed at civilians.He told PM: “It is not counted under the chemical weapons convention in its normal use but, although it is a matter of legal niceties, it probably does fall into the category of chemical weapons if it is used for this kind of purpose directly against people.”When an Italian TV documentary revealing the use of white phosphorus in Iraq was broadcast on 8 November, it sparked fury among Italian anti-war protesters, who demonstrated outside the US embassy in Rome.end of article.It seems that the U.S. is willing to give Sadam chemical weapons and we are also willing to use them. The video has very graphic examples of women and children who were burned alive by this weapon. The evil is boiling to the surface.In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 16, 2005

What is white phosphorus? White phosphorus is a solid, waxy man-made chemical which ignites spontaneously at about 30C and produces an intense heat, bright light and thick pillars of smoke. The US military says it used white phosphorus to flush out insurgents It continues to burn until deprived of oxygen and, if extinguished with water, can later reignite if the particles dry out and are exposed again to the air. Also known by the military as WP or Willy Pete, white phosphorus is used in munitions, to mark enemy targets and to produce smoke for concealing troop movements. It can also be used as an incendiary device to firebomb enemy positions. What are its effects? If particles of ignited white phosphorus land on a person's skin, they can continue to burn right through flesh to the bone. Toxic phosphoric acid can also be released into wounds, risking phosphorus poisoning. Skin burns must be immersed in water or covered with wet cloths to prevent re-combustion until the particles can be removed. Exposure to white phosphorus smoke in the air can also cause liver, kidney, heart, lung or bone damage and even death. A former US soldier who served in Iraq says breathing in smoke close to a shell caused the throat and lungs to blister until the victim suffocated, with the phosphorus continuing to burn them from the inside. Long-term exposure to lesser concentrations over several months or years may lead to a condition called "phossy jaw", where mouth wounds are caused that fail to heal and the jawbone eventually breaks down. In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Nov 17, 2005

bro Mikewell to me what the Lord has spoken in terms of the future isn't changeable but it's a call to repentance for us all. now as a father my initial concern was for my family in the midst of all this. the thing i realize now is that the Lord loves my wife and daughter more than i ever could and will give us all grace enough to endure. we're not in a hopeless situation for the Lord will surely bring us through it all and see his will done in us and through us. i guess i have been assailed by the peace which surpases all understanding :) in all honesty i'm ready to go home...

rookie Nov 17, 2005

Getting back to Buchanan's book, with this thought in mind, I am not supporting Buchanan's views and do not seek to say that we should support his fixes for this government. The purpose is to bring to light certain thoughts that most have no clue at to what might be. Page 19THE WEST POINT MANIFESTOAfter the president had widened the theater of conflict to include "axis of evil" nations that had nothing to do with 9/11, the coalitions he had drawn together domestically and abroad began to crumble. But the president was undetered. In an address to the graduates at West Point on June 2 2002, he went further, announcing a new post-cold war mission for the armed forces of the United States."Our nation's cause has always been larger than our nation's defense. We fight, as we always fight, for a just peace- a peace that favors human liberty. We will defend the peace against threats from terrorists and tyrants. We will preserve the peace building good relations among the great powers. And we will extend the peace by encouraging free and open societies on every continent." In asserting America's duty to "extend the peace" the president was assuming a global mission no other president had ever dared assert. And, the Wilsonain rhetoric aside, America had never gone to war for any such gauzy goal as a "just peace...that favors human liberty." ....At West Point, President Bush now rejected as obsolete the doctrines of containment and deterrence that had won the Cold War, and adovated anew an American policy of preemptive war:"Containment is not possible when unbalanced dictators with weapons of mass destruction can deliver those weapons on missiles or secretly provide them to terrorist allies...If we wait for threats to fully materialize, we will have waited too long. The war on terror will not be won on the defensive. We must take the battle to the enemy, disrupt his plans, and confront the worst threats before they emerge. In this world we have entered, the only path to safety is the path of action. And this nation will act."....The president then took the Bush Doctrine a great leap forward, asserting a sovereign right to prevent any nation from ever acquiring the power to challenge the strategic supremacy of the United States:"Competition between great nations is inevitable, but armed conflict in our world is not...America has, and intends to keep, military strengths beyond challenge--thereby making the destabilizing arms races of other eras pointless, and limiting rivalries to trade and other pursuits of peace."This was breathtaking. President Bush was saying to Beijing, Moscow, New Delhi; You may compete with us in trade, but we will not allow you to increase your strength to where it challenges America's power.....But the president was not finished at West Point. "All nations that decide for aggression and terror will pay a price. We will not leave...the peace of the planet at the mercy of a few mad terrorists and tyrants. We will lift this dark threat from our country and the world."Where in Scripture does it speak about peace peace peace?Where in Scripture does it speak of the fortress becoming the thing that is worshiped?In ChristJeffIn Christ

Compton Nov 17, 2005

"Containment is not possible when unbalanced dictators with weapons of mass destruction can deliver those weapons on missiles or secretly provide them to terrorist allies...If we wait for threats to fully materialize, we will have waited too long.In all fairness Bush has a point here. Instead of May Day parades of missiles and tanks in Red Square, our enemies hide in mountains without sanction of legitimate government.Yet, as Christians how can we approve of preemptive war? (Some would ask, how can we approve of war at all?) It's a moral delimma that is completely different then the cold war struggle against the Soviet Union. The only ethical and moral position left to us is to tighten border security hoping that nothing else happens. Even if we are hit again, we may not have the right to strike back because no government will willingly take credit for these assaults or admit that terrorists planned these attackes within their border. (Why would they?)Perhaps the only acceptable choice left to American Christians in the face of terrorism is to simply hope it doesn't happen again and if it does we can die as martyrs for world peace. Any other response will require premptive strikes or overthrow of legitimate governments, which are morally objectionable. Martyrdom was the policy of the first century church towards violence. Could it work as a national policy? I remember a historian once observing about the early church. "The Apostle Paul had handed the Roman Empire a tremendous challenge...how do you defeat a people who believe that defeat is victory?" Well, defeat may be the only road to victory for Christians in this country. Our conservative and liberal leaders are taking us places that we cannot follow. MC

rookie Nov 18, 2005

Brother Mike wrote:It's a moral delimma that is completely different then the cold war struggle against the Soviet Union. The only ethical and moral position left to us is to tighten border security hoping that nothing else happens. Even if we are hit again, we may not have the right to strike back because no government will willingly take credit for these assaults or admit that terrorists planned these attackes within their border. (Why would they?)Is seems we always hear the wrong questions asked. We hear that it is better that we fight on foreign soil against the terrorist than on our own soil. This seems to be the wisdom that is accepted today by the vast majority of people. First, why does everyone believe this? The emphasis of thread was to expose how people are led to believe a lie. The Nazi establishment of the 1930's to 1945 created the science of propaganda in a way that had not existed before. Remember Goelbels statement, "Repeat the lie enough times and it becomes the truth." There is a great difference between the Soviet Union situation and the current situation. But how is it different? I have heard that Osama Bin Laden hates the U.S. for who we are. President Bush has stated this many times. Yet this in not the truth. Osama Bin Laden hates us for what we do. Remember when the Russians invaded Afghanistan? The U.S. trained and equiped Osama Bin Laden to wage terror against the Russians. Osama Bin Laden hated the Russians because they were invading Islamic lands. We created Osama Bin Laden and his organization. I am sure he did not hate the U.S. back then. So what is the real reason for Osama Bin Laden's hatred for the U.S. now? Why has he turned agaisnt the U.S.?He and Al Queda hate us for what we do. This is the real truth. In a Scriptural analogy, Satan and his world does not hate those who profess Christ, the world hates those who follow Christ. This is the question that no one wants to know the answer too. Why? Are we blinded by pride? You see in history terrorism has always existed. So the situation of the Soviet Union and the Cold War is different than what we are experiencing now. What is the difference?According to history terrorism is the price of empire. Where ever a nation has strived to become an empire, terrorism has surfaced to oppose that nation. So how should we, America defend ourselves and our homes? If you do not wish to pay the price, you must give up the empire. The terrorists are over here because we are over there. This last thought was gleaned from the book that I have been posting from.So why do we seek to be an empire? Why do we communicate a doctrine that says that we will no longer permit another nation of the face of the earth to threaten us militarily? What is the truth? What is the lie? In ChristJeff

Compton Nov 18, 2005

So how should we, America defend ourselves and our homes? If you do not wish to pay the price, you must give up the empire.Well, I'm with you on this one. Yet I am curious how many people really want this.. My premise is that perhaps there aren’t many moral choices left for this world. Our hope lies in the next realm…this one is corrupt and all who live here are touched by this corruption.Let’s consider how we might reverse our global influence without causing more evil. First order of business is to allow the oil companies the entrepreneurial incentive to develop domestic energy sources. Next, in the interest of defending ourselves from risk of further homeland terroism we will have to concentrate on clamping down on our Canadian and Mexican borders. Globally we should start where our world power began…in Europe. Now that Nato has served it’s purpose nicely we can withdraw the few remaining troops from the continent. First order of business in the mid-east is reinstating Saddam Hussein and leaving Iraq. He is still alive, and enough of his Baath party remains in hiding to reconstruct the former government. This should solve many problems. The next mid east policy would be to allow Arabs to try their luck at removing the Zionist squatters from their soil without US interference. Besides, it doesn’t have to be genocide because Europe, as a contribution to the mid-east peace process should be more then happy to welcome back the Jews.The next item on the agenda is to withdraw out troops from South Korea and our aircraft carriers from Taiwan. Maybe these Islands will fare better then we imagined. In the meantime we can use our massive Navy to strengthen our own border waters. Perhaps, since we would no longer be provoking terroism we can scrap most of our Navy. I think we can let the UN leave if they choose to.Don't ask me if I am joking...even I don't know! If we could find away to not be a super power without creating a vacuum I might welcome it. I agree that Al Quaida hates us because of our interference. (I certainly don't agree that we created Al Quida...what happened to free will?) But I agree that our sole super-power status is an unnerving to the rest of the world and don’t blame citizens of other nations for resenting US presence.In the end, I can’t help feeling this is really a no-win situation. I think that’s what keeps me from being either conservative or liberal…I’m too pessisimistic to believe there is a valid political solution. I don't think there are very many moral choices left in this age. Because we are all connected globally, even shopping at Wal-Mart has evil consequenses…if you think about it hard enough. I’m not trying to be fiesty or argumentative here…only trying to share my frustration at the wall to wall evil that seems to carpet every moral path that lies before us. Any suggestions?

rookie Nov 18, 2005

Brother Mike wrote:In the end, I can’t help feeling this is really a no-win situation. I think that’s what keeps me from being either conservative or liberal…I’m too pessisimistic to believe there is a valid political solution. I don't think there are very many moral choices left in this age. Because we are all connected globally, even shopping at Wal-Mart has evil consequenses…if you think about it hard enough. I’m not trying to be fiesty or argumentative here…only trying to share my frustration at the wall to wall evil that seems to carpet every moral path that lies before us. Any suggestions?I'll start voting again when you run for president.Amen BrotherIn ChristJeff

Compton Nov 18, 2005

I'll start voting again when you run for president.That's one! :-P Bless you Jeff.MC

sermonindex Nov 18, 2005

I’m not trying to be fiesty or argumentative here…only trying to share my frustration at the wall to wall evil that seems to carpet every moral path that lies before us.Have you been listening to Don Francisco's Duke and Duchess song?He describes a money-craved society with the poor outside begging for a crust of bread while others live in obscene luxury. And then the wrath of God which will fall on those greedy people one day. But for me, the punchline is that 'high above the King of kings hears every little prayer'. How that 'little' has encouraged me many many times, to seek my Father in heaven.

rookie Nov 19, 2005

Terrorism is the war of the poor, and War is the terrorism of the rich.Sir Peter UstinovAre we willing to see or are we blinded by our comforts?The battle is a spiritual one. In ChristJeff

Compton Nov 19, 2005

Jeff,it's interesting that you quote Ustinov. Earlier I had mentioned that there doesn not seem to be political solution. For Peter Ustinov there was still one valid political solution left: a world government. He has said, “World Government is not only possible, it is inevitable; and when it comes, it will appeal to patriotism in its truest, in its only sense, the patriotism of men who love their national heritages so deeply that they wish to preserve them in safety for the common good.”I admit I am too influenced both by an apprehension of anti-christ and a deep sense of American independence to readily embrace the idea. (Ustinov, as president of the World Federalist Movement, was a firm supporter of the International Criminal Court which has indicated that Bush should be tried as a war criminal.) In the end I think it's impossible but one can't help but feel the tide turning slowly in that direction.I am asking because if there was ever a reason for nations to start prosecuting Christians with a clear conscience...it would be because many in our ranks, along with fundamentalists from other faiths, oppose ecumemical and political globalism. Do you have any thoughts on this?MC

rookie Nov 21, 2005

Brother Mike wrote:t's interesting that you quote Ustinov. I do not know anything more of Ustinov than what you have stated here. I quoted this quote from page 89 of Buchanan's book. Earlier I had mentioned that there doesn not seem to be political solution. For Peter Ustinov there was still one valid political solution left: a world government. He has said, “World Government is not only possible, it is inevitable; and when it comes, it will appeal to patriotism in its truest, in its only sense, the patriotism of men who love their national heritages so deeply that they wish to preserve them in safety for the commLast week we began receiving a subscription to a news paper that serves the area we are planning to move to. "The Lancaster New Era" was described by the sales rep as a paper that represents the conservative agenda. So I began to read and found one of the editorials written by "Charles Krauthammer. Up until last week I had never heard or read of Krauthammer, yet I also came across this man in Buchanan's book. I would like to quote this in relation to your thought.Page 12"When the Soviet empire started to unravel with the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, the Cold War that had defined America's mission came to an end. Americans began to cast about for a new foreign policy. Owen Harries of the National Interest invited this writer to participate in a symposium on America's role in the post-Cold War world, alon with neoconservatives Jeane Kirkpatrick, Ben Wattenberg, and Charles Krauthammer. Kirkpatrick, a former UN ambassador, held out the hope that we might become again what we had been before a half century of hot and cold war from 1939 to 1989: "The time when Americans should bear such unusual burdens (as the Cold War) is past. With a return to "normal" times, we can again become a normal nation-- and take care of pressing problems of education, family, industry, and technology."Wattenberg, however, urged that America not come home at all but launch a global campaign to "wage democracy" all over the world.Krauthammer's vision was even more grandiose. It should be the "wish and work" of America now, he wrote, to "integrate" with Europe and Japan inside a "super-sovereign" entity that would be "economically, culturally and politically hegemonic in the world." The old republic was to be absorbed by the new entity. This "new univeralism," wrote Krauthammer, "would require the conscious depreciation not only of American sovereignty but of the notion of sovereignty in general. This is not as outrageous as it sounds." ---end of thought----One thing I know is that the Scriptures teach that there will be a one world government just like that which man tried to establish back in the book of GenesisGen. 10:8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, “Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.” 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city). 3 Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” This will happen again. And I know that we can do nothing about this from happening. To me what is most important is the fact that we ourselves search for the truth and are not caught up in the lie. We are called to expose the lie. When we do this we will be persecuted by those who strive to promote the lie. People like Charles Krauthammer are seeking to establish democracy that places men under the rule of one world government. These doctrines of men are weaving its way into the minds of Christtians who are not willing to discern what is evil. These times are perilous for the Children are being cast about by every wind of doctrine. In ChristJeff

Compton Nov 21, 2005

Thanks Jeff,A couple of affecting statements..."The time when Americans should bear such unusual burdens (as the Cold War) is past. With a return to "normal" times, we can again become a normal nation-- and take care of pressing problems of education, family, industry, and technology."I've mentioned this before, but it seems hard for Americans to imagine themselves anything less then the greatest nation on Earth. That is not so bad in it if our definition of greatness is righteousness. There was a time when our aspirations were to be more then rich and powerful, as captured by this well-known 1850 statement attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville: “I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers - and it was not there . . . in her fertile fields and boundless forests and it was not there . . . in her rich mines and her vast world commerce - and it was not there . . . in her democratic Congress and her matchless Constitution - and it vas not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.” (It's typical of the disillusionment of our times that the authenticity of this cherished quote is now being called into question by scholars.)Now, that the cold war is over, we might have hoped that the arms race would likewise wind down. On the contrary I fear it's only grown more chaotic and dangerous, and we have become the pace setter. In a twist of the plot, Americans who previously saw themselves as making the world safe for democracy are finding themselves the subject of fear and loathing.Wattenberg, however, urged that America not come home at all but launch a global campaign to "wage democracy" all over the world.The irony strikes at the heart of America's self-definition:independence. We who are most opposed to all forms of foreign interference, highly suspicious of the UN, have become a global power that dwarfs the UN's claim upon the planet. People like Charles Krauthammer are seeking to establish democracy that places men under the rule of one world government.I remember a British citizen complaining that it was unfair that they couldn't participate in the vote for the American president...claiming that our presidential vote affected her life more then British political races. Even as an American voter, I understand her sense of powerlessness before recent events in America.At the end of the day it is not hard to feel a sense that the world has become a runaway train. The passenger cars are full of people, some who are laughing and others who are desperate to leave, while a few are exhorting all to brace for impact. These latter warn that really no one man is running the engine but the rickety speeding train, winding back and forth, is sure to reach it's destination, fixed as it is on the track of God's government. There is a government that I do believe in after all! "To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders."MC

rookie Nov 21, 2005

In terms of fighting a war against Terrorism, how would one look at this situation. When Nazi Germany invaded France and set up its government; there came a movement know to us as the French Resistance. The Germans suffered from the terrorism created by this organization. Yet we look upon this work as heroic.When President Bush stated that we are going to fight a war against terrorism, what does He really mean? In ChristJeff

Compton Nov 21, 2005

I see your point but I think there are important differences...Did the French target women and children purposely? (American caused civilian casualities are horrible, but can not be compared to the policy of targeting civilians such as in 9/11.)Also, America was not the only western power aiding various mid-east nations. While we are allied with Israel, France has funded the Palestinian Authority...yet both nations suffered from terrorist strikes before the Gulf Wars. The only conclusion I have is that radical Islam is not guided by the same defensive logic that the French resistance was. Indeed, the recent attack against Jordan proves that Al Quiada is like a rabid dog, that bites anything in it's path. I appreciate the fair-mindedness but I cannot equate Islamic terrorists with freedom fighters. 9/11 was inexcusable. The image of freedom fighters has more substance inside Iraq. I remember answering someone who was outraged at the decitful tactic of Iraq soldiers who dressed in civilian clothing in attempt to get closer to American soldiers. I told them, "before you point out the suicide bomber in their eye, remove the B-52 from thine own!"Even so, the feeling I get from the conflicting reports from Iraq, is that the population wanted Saddam out. Those that are resisting are not doing so as part of a "conquered nation". They are insurgents...and they are coming from outside Iraq. I'm going to attract criticism for this, but I think the people of Iraq will be better off without Saddam. Iraq was a developing nation before the Ba'ath party raped it, killing the other political parties. If we doubt this, then I still think it's not to late to reinstate Saddam. We could parade him back in...of course all those people who were kicking his statue and spitting on his picture would be in trouble. Now I still think we need to hear a firm plan for leaving Iraq intact and strong. And as for Al Quaida, I can't see them as the French Resistance, and I can't see America as Nazi Germany. MC

GaryE Nov 21, 2005

The following review was sent to me on my e-mail account a couple of weeks ago. It is my opinion that it is accurate and true. I realize that this subject is not spiritual at all and usually only brings about strife and contention, but have decided to add it to this thread since it fits well here.In Christ,GaryE.................................................- Historical Review of Iraq Situation A California Lawyer's Perspective on the Iraq War Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between England and America for food and war materials. Bushido Japan had overrun most of Asia, beginning in 1928, killing millions of civilians throughout China, and impressing millions more as slave labor.The US was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most Americans and Congress wanted nothing to do with the European war or the Asian war. Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 and in outrage Congress unanimously declared war on Japan, and the following day on Germany, which had not attacked us. It was a dicey thing. We had few allies. France was not an ally (Are they ever? General Patton once said,"I'd rather have a battalion of Germans in front of me, than a battalion of french behind me!") the Vichy government of France aligned with its German occupiers. Germany was not an ally, it was an enemy, and Hitler intended to set up a Thousand Year Reich in Europe. Japan was not an ally, it was intent on owning and controlling all of Asia. Japan and Germany had long-term ideas of invading Canada and Mexico, and then the United States over the north and south borders, after they had settled control of Asia and Europe. America's allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia, and Russia, and that was about it. There were no other countries of any size or military significance with the will and ability to contribute much or anything to the effort to defeat Hitler's Germany and Japan, and prevent the global dominance of Nazism. And we had to send millions of tons of arms, munitions, and war supplies to Russia, England, and the Canadians, Aussies, Irish, and Scots, because none of them could produce all they needed for themselves. All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the east, was already under the Nazi heel. America was not prepared for war. America had stood down most of its military after WWI and throughout the depression, at the outbreak of WWII there were army units training with broomsticks over their shoulders because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted on the doors because they didn't have tanks. And a big chunk of our navy had just been sunk and damaged at Pearl Harbor. Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England that was the property of Belgium and was given by Belgium to England to carry on the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler - actually, Belgium surrendered in one day, because it was unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next day anyway just to prove they could. Britain had been holding out for two years already in the face of staggering shipping loses and the near-decimation of its air force in the Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively minor threat that could be dealt with later and turning his attention to Russia, at a time when England was on the verge of collapse in the late summer of 1940. Russia saved America's ass by putting up a desperate fight for two years until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany. Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow, 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but also more than a million soldiers. More than a million. Had Russia surrendered, then, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire campaign against the Brits, then America, and the Nazis would have won that war. Had Hitler not made that mistake and invaded England in 1940 or 1941, instead, there would have been no England for the US and the Brits to use as a staging ground to prepare an assault on Nazi Europe, England would not have been able to run its North African campaign to help take a little pressure off Russia while America geared up for battle, and today Europe would very probably be run by the Nazis, the Third Reich. Isolated and without any allies (not even the Brits), the US would very probably have had to cede Asia to the Japanese, who were basically Nazis by another name and the world we live in today would be very different and much worse. I say this to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. AND we are at another one. There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world, unless they are prevented from doing so. France, Germany, and Russia, have been selling them weapons technology as recently as 2002, as have North Korea, Syria, and Pakistan, paid for with billions of dollars Saddam Hussein skimmed from the "Oil For Food" program administered by the UN with the complicity of Kofi Annan and his son. The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs - they believe that Islam, a radically conservative (definitely not liberal!) form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world, and that all who do not bow to Allah should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, destroy Israel and purge the world of Jews. This is what they say. There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East - for the most part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and its Reformation today, but it is not yet known which will win - the Inquisition, or the Reformation. If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control the Middle East, and the OPEC oil, and the US, European, and Asian economies, the techno-industrial economies, will be at the mercy of OPEC - not an OPEC dominated by the well-educated and rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis. You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want jobs? You want the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins. If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge. We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, Al Qaeda and other Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. We cannot do it everywhere at once so we have created a focal point for the battle now, at the time and place of our choosing, in Iraq. Not in New York, not in London, or Paris, or Berlin, but in Iraq, where we did and are doing two very important things.(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is or was a terrorist, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million Iranians. (2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad guys there and the ones we get there we won't have to get here, or somewhere else. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed. The Europeans could have done this, but they didn't, and they won't. We now know that rather than opposing the rise of the Jihadist, the French, Germans, and Russians were selling them arms - we have found more than a million tons of weapons and munitions in Iraq. If Iraq was not a threat to anyone, why did Saddam need a million tons of weapons? And Iraq was paying for much of these French, German, and Russian arms with money skimmed from the UN Oil For Food Program that was supposed to pay for food, medicine, and education, for Iraqi children. World War II, the war with the German and the Japanese Nazis, really began with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before America joined it. It officially ended in 1945 - a 17 year war - and was followed by another decade of US occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running on their own again . . . a 27 year war. World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full year's GDP - adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion dollars, WWII cost America more than 400,000 killed in action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action. [The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $180 billion, which is roughly what 9/11 cost New York. (What will the next hit cost in $ & lives if we wait until the Jahadist have nuclear weapons???) It has also cost over 1,900 American lives, which is roughly 2/3 of the lives that the Jihadist snuffed on 9/11.] But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have been unimaginably greater - a world now dominated by German and Japanese Nazism. Americans have a short attention span, conditioned I suppose by 60 minute TV shows and 2-hour movies in which everything comes out okay. The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be. If we do this thing in Iraq successfully, it is probable that the Reformation will ultimately prevail. Many Muslims in the Middle East hope it will. We will be there to support it. It has begun in some countries, e. g. Libya, Dubai and Saudi Arabia. If we fail, the Inquisition will probably prevail, and terrorism from Islam will be with us for all the foreseeable future, because the Inquisition, the Jihadist, believe they are called by Allah to kill all the Infidels, and that death in Jihad is glorious. The bottom line here is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism until we defeat it (or are defeated by it), whenever that is. It will not go away on its own. It WILL NOT go away if we ignore it. If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and never-ending war. Now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons unless WE prevent them. The Iraq war is expensive, and uncertain, yes. But the consequences of not fighting and winning it will be horrifically greater. We have four options:1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons. 2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is). 3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in America. 4. Or we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany, which is well underway, and maybe most of the rest of Europe. It will be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier then. Yes, the Jihadist say that they look forward to an Islamic America. If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law as dictated by the Qur'an), an America that resembles Iran today. We can be defeatist peace-activists as anti-war types seem to be, and concede, surrender, to Jihad, or we can do whatever it takes to win this war against it. The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes -cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.Those who are willing to be the most ruthless win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them. In the 20th century, it was Western democracy vs. communism, and before that Western democracy vs. Nazism, and before that Western democracy vs. German Imperialism. Western democracy won, three times, but it wasn't cheap, fun, nice, easy, or quick. Indeed, the wars against German imperialism (WWI), Nazi imperialism (WWII), and communist imperialism (the 40-year Cold War that included the Vietnam War, itself a major battle in a larger war) covered almost the entire century. The first major war of the 21st Century is the war between Western Judeo/Christian Civilization and Wahhabi Islam. It may last a few more years, or most of this century. It will last until the Wahhabi branch of Islam fades away, or gives up its ambitions for regional and global dominance through Jihad, or until Western Civilization gives in to the Jihad. Senator John Kerry, in the debates and almost daily, makes 3 scary claims: 1. We went to Iraq without enough troops. We went with the troops the US military wanted. We went with the troop levels General Tommy Franks asked for. We deposed Saddam in 30 days with light casualties, much lighter than we expected. The real problem in Iraq is that we are trying to be nice - we are trying to fight a minority of the population that is Jihadi, and trying to avoid killing the large majority that is not. We could flatten Fallujah in minutes with a flight of B52s, or seconds with one nuclear cruise missile - but we don't. We're trying to do brain surgery, not amputate the patient's head. The Jihadis amputate heads. 2. We went to Iraq with too little planning.This is a specious argument. It supposes that if we had just had the right plan the war would have been easy, cheap, quick and clean. That is not an option. It is a guerrilla war against a determined enemy and no such war ever has been or ever will be easy, cheap, quick, and clean. This is not TV. 3. We proved ourselves incapable of governing and providing security.This too is a specious argument. It was never our intention to govern and provide security. It was our intention from the beginning to do just enough to enable the Iraqis to develop a representative government and their own military and police forces to provide their own security, and that is happening. The US and the Brits and other countries there have trained over 100,000 Iraqi police and military, now, and will have trained more than 200,000 by the end of next year. We are in the process of transitioning operational control for security back to Iraq. It will take time. It will not go with no hitches. This is not TV. Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind. The Cold war lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. Forty-two years. Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany.World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation, and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan. World War II resulted in the death of more than 50 million people, maybe more than 100 million people, depending on which estimates you accept. The US has taken a little more than 1,900 KIA in Iraq. The US took more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944, the first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism. In WWII the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week for four years. Most of the individual battles of WWII lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far. But the stakes are at least as high . . . a world dominated by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms . . . or a world dominated by the radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihadist under the Mullahs and the Sharia. I do not understand why the American Left does not grasp this.They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently not for Iraqis. In America, absolutely, but nowhere else. 300,000 Iraqi bodies in mass graves in Iraq are not our problem. The US population is about twelve times that of Iraq, so let's multiply 300,000 by twelve. What would you think if there were 3,600,000 American bodies in mass graves in America because of George Bush? Would you hope for another country to help liberate America? "Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate where it's safe - in America. For this priviledge, they should thank US veterans.Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, in the places in the world that really need peace activism the most? The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy. If the Jihad wins, it will be the death of Liberalism. Sadly, American Liberals just don't get it. Raymond S. Kraft is a writer and lawyer living in Northern California

Compton Nov 21, 2005

I think it's worth noting a recent comment I heard made by the Iraqi president on the American and Iraqi deaths in the present conflict. In so many words he said that while the death count is tragic, it is not nearly as bad as what was happening when the Ba'ath party ran the country...where on average, 30,000 Iraqi citizens were murdered by the Saddam government every year. So, I suppose, in these evil days, that will have to count as progress.MC

rookie Nov 21, 2005

Brother Mike wrote:I appreciate the fair-mindedness but I cannot equate Islamic terrorists with freedom fighters. 9/11 was inexcusable. I agree with this statement for the most part. Yes Islamic terrorists are different than much of what we have seen in the past. And yes, I should have not made a comparison of situations between these two events in history. They just don't line up. Yet, what was it that the terrorist attacked on 9/11? What was their focus? Was it meant to kill women and children or something else? We often submit that there are civilian casualities that were not targeted yet they occur. They occur everyday in Iraq by the hands of U.S. soldiers. We have many testimonies from the soldiers of these events. This is the outcome of war, it happens. The young kids fighting over there have to make split second decisions. It is either them or me. But the results, what does it do to those who experience this? What pictures play over and over again in the minds of those subjected to war? I believe it may bring them a little closer to crying out to God. And I pray that they would be filled with the peace that comes as a perfect gift down from the Father. I in no way sanction what those who practice terrorism do. What I am looking for is how should we fight the roots of terriorism. What if the world saw the evidence of the power of God in those who profess Him. Would not these radical Isalmists like Paul, forget the things of the past, and look onward and upward to the call of Christ in their lives? In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 21, 2005

The first major war of the 21st Century is the war between Western Judeo/Christian Civilization and Wahhabi Islam. It may last a few more years, or most of this century. It will last until the Wahhabi branch of Islam fades away, or gives up its ambitions for regional and global dominance through Jihad, or until Western Civilization gives in to the Jihad. Since 632 Ad there has been a clash of civilizations. For eight hundred years, it was the Muslims who were the advanced people of the world. The European Christian nations were the barbarians. And then things changed around. And now it seems like things may change around again. I wonder how Daniel, Shadrach, Mishack, and Adbendego felt as their nation Israel was considered the barbarians and the Babylonians the civilized nation?God protected those who lived in bondage to the Chaldeans. God protected His people during the time of Queen Ester. Why would He not protect those who have the mind of Christ? Why do we need the U.S. government to protect our families? What if it is God's will that live in subjection to the Wahhabe nation? The real question is would we submitt to Islam or be like Daniel? These are easy things to say and contemplate, yet only when I am confronted by realily will I know the outcome. Yet the love of the truth will deliver us from the lies. God is faithful. It is we who must discover His ways.In ChristJeff

Compton Nov 21, 2005

Yet, what was it that the terrorist attacked on 9/11? What was their focus? Was it meant to kill women and children or something else? Certainly attacking the Trade Towers was a shot at US global economic influence. Also, hitting the Pentagon was a military assault. We can only assume that many other intended targets had equal symbolic or strategic value. In fact, the strategic nature of the targets raised the attack from "mere" terrorism, to declaring full war on the US. (I still catch myself calling 9/11 a "terrorist attack"...we would never call Pearl Harbor a terrorist attack.) The young kids fighting over there have to make split second decisions. It is either them or me. But the results, what does it do to those who experience this?I can't imagine. It is tempting to take the individual experiences of those young people that fit our world view and elevate them to universals. For instance, which soldier represents the American experience in Iraq...the soldier who returned with positive stories of safe streets and friendly natives, or the angry soldier on BBC telling the world about his involvement with Phosphorus? Both soldiers are telling the truth in my opinion.I in no way sanction what those who practice terrorism do.I know that brother!What I am looking for is how should we fight the roots of terriorism. What if the world saw the evidence of the power of God in those who profess Him. That is my desire as well...I think your policy of scrutinizing the actions of our leaders is very wise. Such scrutiny reminds me that there is still a remnant in this nation that care for righteousness. For instance, the outrage over the incident at Abu Grab shows me two things about America...one, that we have a few ignorant red neck reservists serving in the military, and two...most importantly... that this nation does still have a conscience. So keep challenging us to give ourselves completely to the Lord, and to not give ourselves over to any man liberal or conservative, in these dark days brother!MC

rookie Nov 21, 2005

“I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers - and it was not there . . . in her fertile fields and boundless forests and it was not there . . . in her rich mines and her vast world commerce - and it was not there . . . in her democratic Congress and her matchless Constitution - and it vas not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.”This is spoken of in Deuteronomy, the curses and the blessings. Yes this is a beautiful insight. The Scriptures often talk about how one generation was an apple in God's eye. The Scriptures also speak of unfaithful generations who continue to claim God yet they deny Him by what they do. Just a thought. I see the evidence of compromise all around me. I myself fall way short. Yet I believe we have reached a point where pride has blinded us, (the U.S.), and for those who are not saved that is the only hope that they have. Yet for those who profess Christ, I see that maybe, many look the other way when they see the evil that their own nation does against others. Their hope for security in what men have to offer will allow them to continue to live in the land of milk and honey. Just like in the days of Noah, they will eat and drink and have weddings. What do those Christians who live in China hope for? Matt. 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.Matt. 6:25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?Matt. 6:28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?Matt. 6:31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, “What shall we eat?’ or “What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.The Chinese don't have to worry about mammon but we do.In ChristJeff

Compton Nov 21, 2005

Since 632 Ad there has been a clash of civilizations. For eight hundred years, it was the Muslims who were the advanced people of the world. The European Christian nations were the barbarians. And then things changed around. And now it seems like things may change around again. While I could believe that we could become barbarians...I don't see the Mid-east becoming advanced...powerful yes, but not advanced. Much is made of the Christian and Islamic wars in the dark ages. Yet it is worth noting that it was the Mongols that reduced the thriving Islamic civilization to ruin. In the early 13th century, the war of the Khans went on for 60 merciless years in Iraq and Syria. When the Caliph of Baghdad (Islamic pope?)defied the Khan, the Mongol general had him trampled to paste in a sack by horses. (A sign of respect to keep the religous leaders blood from touching the ground.) The Caliphate has never been restored, and Arab scholars say the region has still never economically recovered.Why do we need the U.S. government to protect our families?Great question. Again I am reminded of the Mongol army. After the Khans had conquered the mid-east they set their sights on Europe. They got within sight of Vienna's walls before stalling for winter to pass. Europe would in all likely hood have been unable to withstand the superior Mongol military. Yet, suddenly news reached the Mongols that their tribal leader died (yes tribal people almost conquered Asia, the mid-east, and Europe)which meant that all the soldiers needed to return to prevent civil war. They never returned...I take that as God having saved Europe in 1241. He can do the same for those who trust in His will in 2006.MC

rookie Nov 22, 2005

Page 79 of Buchanan's bookWHY DO THEY HATE US?When the terrorists of 9/11 drove those planes into the twin towers of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the field in Pennsylvania, Americans were shocked at how many in the Islamic world said, "The Americans had it coming."What had we don that any should take satisfaction in the massacre of three thousand of our people? Why did demonstrators from Palestine to Pakistan support the Taliban? Why do millions in that world admire Osama? Why do Islamic radicals hate us so they willing to commit suicide if they can take some of us with them? They cannot defeat or destroy the United States. Are they mad?"Why do they hate us?" Americans asked after 9/11, President Bush professed himself shocked even by the implications of the questions. "I am," he declared,"...amazed....that in some Islamic countries there is vitrolic hatred of America...I'm amazed that there's such misunderstanding of what our country is about that people would hate us...like most Americans, I just can't believe [it}. Because I know how good we are."When others probed for a deeper answer, they were charged with "blaming America first," parroting enemy propaganda, trying to place responsibility on our own country for what the murderers had done to us.We were attacked, declared the National Review on its cover, "because we are powerful, rich and good." Our enemies "hate our democracy, our liberal markets, and our abundance and economic opportunity, at which the terror attacks were clearly directed," said Jack Kemp."They hate what they see right here in this chamber; a democratically elected government, " President Bush told Congress. "They hate our freedoms; our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other."Americans for Victory Over Terrorism, a subsidiary of Empower America, declared in its statement of principles; "The radical Islamists who attacked us did so because of our democratic ideals, our belief in, and practice of, liberty and equality." With due respect, these answers insult the intelligence of a second-grader. Did the Japanese attack us a Pearl Harbor because we were free, rich, good, and had low marginal tax rates? What is it about us Americans that we so often lack for what the poet Robert Burns said was the greatest gift the gods can give us, "to see ourselves as other see us." We are not hated for who we are. We are hated for what we do. It is not our priciples that have spawned pandemic hatred of America in the Islamic world. It is our policies. Nothing justifies the mass murders of 9/11. Nothing. Nor need we hear out the extended plea bargains of those who slaughtered our countrymen. They deserve the rough justice they are receiving. But now that the Taliban have gone down, bin Laden is in hiding, and Iraq is occupied, we need to reflect on why Islamic peoples despise the United States so much they wish to see us dead or gone. If we wish to avert a clash of civilizations, from which we have nothing to gain, we need to listen to what they say--not to what we say---about America.In the indictment of the Muslim world, these are our crimes:1. We preach democracy and human rights, yet prop up dictators and olighrchies who oppress Islamic peoples and steal and squander their wealth.2. By moving thousands of U.S. soldiers, especially women soldiers, onto the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia, we have insulted Arab honor and defiled the land on which sit the holiest sites of Islam. As Ian Buruma and Avishai Margalit, the authors of Occidentalism; The West in the Eyes of Its Enemies, write, "true Whahabi believers, such as Osama bin Laden...view the presences of American women soldiers in Saudi Arabia as an act of defilement. To him and his followers, it is as if the Americans were sending their temple prostitutes to defend the unmanly rulers of Saudi Arabia."3. America's neopagan culture---alcohol, drugs, abortions, filthy magazines, blasphemous books, dirty movies, hellish music ---is a satanic lure that corrupts the morals of Islamic children.4. Americans use hypocritical doulbe standard in dealing with Arabs and Israelis. We embargoed and blockaded Iraq, wich cost the lives of tens of thousands of Iraqi children, because Sadam defied UN resolutions. Yet we give Israel all the aid Sharon demands to defy UN resolutions, seize Arab land, and deny Palestinian rights that America professes to champion.5. We attacked, invaded, and occupied a prostrate Arab nation that did not attack us, did not want war with us, and could not resist us, on the pretext that Iraq had played a role in 9/11 horrors and was building weapons of mass destruction to attack us. These were lies to cover up our greed to control the oil wealth of Iraq, destroy a defiant Arab nation, and erect an American empire in the Middle East. To millions of Muslims, we are the "evil empire."(to be continued)In ChristJeff

sermonindex Nov 23, 2005

I dont agree- you dont seem to know God's promises. The palestinians are terrorists and have been squating on the land God gave Israel according to the Bible through Abraham. read Genesis and Gen 12:3 The Muslims need Christ and will perish without him Their Koran is a violent diatribe against Jews and Christians and all who reject their phoney prophet.They advocate death to all who is not of them. Wake up - we are in ww3jj

rookie Nov 23, 2005

Brother JJ I am not argueing for Islam. I am seeking to reveal how Satan causes the sea of man to be cast to and fro. He is a roaring lion seeking to devour. Only the love of the truth will enable one not to be devoured by the lion.We are actually in WW 4.In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 23, 2005

page 82 To understand our enemies, we should read their words. In a 1998 article in Foreign Affairs, " License to Kill," Bernard Lewis disclosed and dissected a declaration of war against America, published in London in an Arab newspaper. Lewis described this "Declaration of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and the Crusaders" as a "magnificent piece of eloquent, at times even poetic Arabic prose." The author was Osama bin Laden, then being sought in the bombing of our embassies in Kenya and Tanznia. Osama's declaration began by citing the most militant passages of the Koran, and asserted that Americans are the Crusaders reincarnated."Since God laid down the Arabian peninsula....no calamity has even befallen it like these Crusader hosts that have spread in it like locusts, crowding its soil, eating its fruits, and destroying its verdure; and this at a time when the nations contend agaisnt the Muslims like diners jostling around a bowl of food...For more than seven years the United States is occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of its territories, Arabia, plundering it riches, overwhelming it rulers, humiliating its people, threatening its neighbors, and using its bases in the peninsula as a spearhead to fight against the neighboring Islamic peoples."Here then is the first charge against us: We are a Christian empire plundering Arab wealth and trampling with infidel feet on the sacred soil of the Hejaz. Osama next charged that Ameria was preparing a new war to destroy Iraqi people and humiliate all Muslims, in collusion with Israel."Despite the immense destruction inflicted on the Iraqi people at the hands of the Crusader-Jewish alliance and in spite of the appalling number of dead, exceeding a million, the Americans nevertheless...are trying once more to repeat that dreadful slaughter. It seems that the long blockade following after a fierce war, the dismemberment and destruction are not enough for them. So they come again today to destroy what remains of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors...While the purposes of the Americans in these wars are religious and economic, they also serve the petty state of the Jews, to divert attention from their occupation of Jerusalem and their killing of Muslims in it."These crimes represent a "declaration of war by the Americans against God, his Prophet and the Muslims," wrote Osama. Thus jihad against America becomes the duty of every Muslim.(end of thought)Osama bin Laden predicted that the U.S. would invade Iraq a second time. He wrote this in 1998. If I was an Arab and have witnessed what Osama predicted what would I believe? How did Osama bin Laden know that the U.S. would invade Iraq 4 years before it happened? In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 24, 2005

Do you suppose that Osama bin Laden has brought to be what he prophesised about in his declaration of war against the U.S.? What spirit is behind all this? How have the people of the U.S. been deceived? James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. The fruit of satan or the fruit of righteousness what do you see?In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 25, 2005

Terrorism is nothing new.Page 122THE CANONIZATION OF TERRORISTSWhile we condemn terror, it will be used again and again. For terror often triumphs. Sherman and the Union armies crushed the South, setting it back a century. But they were victorious, they freed the slaves, and they are lionized. Hiroshima and Nagasaki convinced the emperor that unconditional surrender was preferalbe to the alternative. The IRA, the Irgun, the Stern Gang, the Viet Minh, the FLN, the Mau Mau, the ANC all used terror and all prevailed. And innocent blood shed in the revolution is quickly washed away in the exhilaration of victory.The FLN's Ben Bella became the first president of Algeria. Jomo Kenyatta, Kikiyu leader to the Mau Mau, became the father of his country, Kenya, and the "grand old man" of Africa. Yitzhak Shamir became prime minister, as had Menachem Begin, his predecessor, who would go on to win the Nobel Prize for Peace. So would Nelson Mandela, who went to prison in 1964 for the bombing of trains and whose ANC was famous for "necklacing" enemies, i.e., cutting off their arms and draping a gas-filled tire around their necks, which was set ablaze to the laughter of the mob. Today, Mandela is perhaps the most respected political figure on earth. Arafat, too, shares a Nobel Prize for Peace and aspires to be the first president of Palestine. The body of the Communist state terrorist Ho Chi Minh is honored in Hanoi. Saigon is no Ho Chi Minh City. The remains of the tyrant responsible for the deaths of perhaps 30 million Chinese lie in a crystal sarcophagus in Tiananmen Square. The waxen body of Lenin, the archterrorist and the brother of the terrorist who attempted to assasinate Czar Alexander III, lies in a mausoleum in the heart of Red Square. D. W. Griffith's classic Birth of a Nation protrayed the Klan as gallant and heroic. Geronimo, the Indian chief who murdered pioneer women and children, was lionized in a Hollywood film. Michael Collins is the title of a film starring Liam Neeson, in which Collins portrayed as an Irish hero fighting for freedom. In State of Siege, the 1973 film based on the kidnapping and murder of a U.S. aid official in Uruguay, his Tupamaro executioners are protrayed as sensitive and principled.Terrorism often succeeded in the twentieth century, and, when it did, the ex-terrorists achieved power, glory, and immortality, with streets, towns, and cities named for them. And America today recognizes every regime to come out of these wars where terrorism was a common tactic. end of thoughtAre we swept away by every wind of doctrin of man? Are we building our foundation upon the shifting sands of mans wisdom?In ChristJeff

rookie Nov 30, 2005

Brother Mike wrote:While I could believe that we could become barbarians...I don't see the Mid-east becoming advanced...powerful yes, but not advanced. I started reading another book of Buchanan, "The Death of the West.Page 11"As a growing population has long been a mark of healthy nations and rising civilizations, falling populations have been a sign of nations and civilizations in decline. If that holds true, Western civilization, power and wealth aside, is in critical condition...page 9The West is dying. Its nations have ceased to reproduce, and their populations have stopped growing and begun to shrink. Not since the Black Death carried off a third of Europe in the fourteenth century has there been a graver threat to the survival of Western civilization. Today, in seventeen European countries, there are more burials than births, more coffins than cradles...Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox---all the Christian faiths are represented in the great death march of the West. The new hedonism seems unable to give people a reason to go on living. Its earliest fruits appear to be poisonous. Will this new "liberating" culture that our young have so enthusiastically embraced prove the deadliest carcinogen of them all?"page 5"Every few years, a storm erupts when some public figure blurts out, "America is a Christian nation!" She was once, and a majority yet call themselves Christian. But our dominant culture should more accurately be called post-Christian, or anti-Christian, for the values it celebrates are the antithesis of what is used to mean to be a Christain. "I am the Lord they God; thou shalt not have strange gods before Me" was the first commandment Moses brought down from Mount Sinai. But the new culture rejects the God of the Old Testament and burns its incense at the altars of the global economy. Kipling's "God of the Market Place" have shouldered aside the God of the Gospels. Sex, fame, money, power--those are what our new America is all about." end of thoughtIn the next few posts I will attempt to describe what has happened since the 70's some of the thoughts coming from this new book and also policies the U.S. pursued to limit population growth. One of those policies seems to be abortion.In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 1, 2005

Chapter 2,,, WHERE HAVE ALL THE CHILDREN GONE?"And ye shall be left few in numbers, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldst not obey the voice of the Lord thy God. Deuteronomy 28:28Why have Europe's nations and peoples stopped having babies and begun to accept their disappearance from this earth with such seeming indifference? Did the wounds of wars or the loss of empire kill the will to live? From the evidence, neither appears to be the case.The Great War left Imperial Germany defeated and dismembered, with two million dead and millions crippled. Yet the German population grew so quickly after 1919 that France, which had been among the victors, was alarmed. After World War 2, baby booms exploded among the vanquished Japanese and Germans as well as the victorious Americans. From studying the birth charts, we find that something happened in the mid-1960's, in the midst of the postwar prosperity, that changed the hearts and minds of Western women and killed in them the desire to live as their mothers had. But if the reason Western women stopped having babies remains in dispute, how they did so is not. Contraception halted the population growth of the West, with abortion as the second line of defense against the unwanted child.First, a little history: Only once had the U.S. birthrate fallen below population replacement, during the Depression, when the economy shrank by half and a fourth of America's breadwinners were out of work, many of them out on the streets. Pessimism, a sense of despair that the good times are over and may never come again, can apparently impact national fertility. The Silent Generation was born in the 1930's, a relatively small cohort and the only generation of the twentieth century never to have produced a president.The postwar baby boom began in 1946, peaked in 1957, and fizzled out in 1964. But just as the World War 2 generation was about done having babies, and the baby boomers themselves were about to begin, a new and more convenient way to prevent pregnancies was discovered.Historians may one day call "the pill" the suicide tablet of the West. It was first licensed in 1960. By 1963, 6 percent of American married women were using Dr. Rock's invention; by 1970, 43 percent were "on the pill." As Catholics furiously debated the morality of contraception and Pope Paul VI issued his encyclical Humane Vitae--which declared all artificial birth control to be immoral for Catholics, the pill included---suddenly a graver issue arose.Arizona TV personality Sherry Finkbine, a married mother of four who had taken thalidomide, the drug that caused deformaties in babies in Europe, learned that she was pregnant. Mrs. Finkbine was subjected to threats from some and offers from others to raise the child if only she would carry it to term. As abortion was still against the law, a blazing national debate ensued. But Mrs. Finkbine mooted the issue by flying to Sweden and having the child aborted.By 1966, however, the Finkbine affair was ancient history, for 6000 abortions were being done every year. By 1970, that figure had leapt to 200,000 as Governors Rockefeller of New York and Reagan of California signed the most liberal abortion laws in America. By 1973, 600,000 abortions were being done. That year, the Supreme Court, with three of President Nixon's four nominees concurring, declared that a woman's right to an abortion was protected by the Constitution. Within a decade, the number of abortions had soared to 1.5 million a year, and abortions had replaced tonsillectomies as the most common surgical procedure in America. Since Justice Blackmun's decision, 40,000,000 abortions have been performed in the United States. Thirty percent of all pregnancies now end on a tabletop in an abortionist's clinic.In 2000, the Food and Drug Administation approved RU-486, a do-it-yourself abortion drug for use in the first seven weeks of pregancy. As no U.S. firm wished to be associated with RU-486 , a China-based company began to produce the drug. Cynics might characterize China's role in producing RU-486 for America as an act of assisted suicide for the one nation blocking Beijing's path to Asian hegemony and world power. To be continued.In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 2, 2005

Roe vs. Wade put a constitutional canopy over a woman's right to an abortion. Yet that decision does not of itself explain the sea change in the attitudes of American and Western women. What was it that made them so hostile to the idea of pregnancy and motherhood that they would prefer to have an abortion, an act their own grandparents would have considered a monstrous offense against God and man? In the 1950's abortion was not only a crime, but a shameful act. There was no national clamor for its legalization. Yet, fifteen years later, a Supreme Court decision declaring abortion a constitutional right was hailed as a milestone of social progress. A revolutionary transformation had taken place in the beliefs of tens of millions of Americans. One of two things had happened; either the sixties drove a moral wedge getween us, or the sixties exposed a moral fracture that had existed, but that we had failed to recognize. I believe the former is true. In that pivotal decade of the last century, a large slice of young America was converted to a new way of thinking, believing, and living. From 1945 to 1965, America passed through what sociologists call "the golden age of marriage," when the average age of first mariages fell to record lows for both men and women, and the proportion of adults woho were married reached an astronomical 95%. The America Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy was a vibrant, dynamic nation. But, as Allan Carlson, president of The Howard Center for Family, Religion, and Society, writes:"All the indicators of family well-being abruptly turned in these places (Western nations) during the short 1963-1965 period. Fertility resumed its fall, tumbling well below zero-growth levels; a massive retreat from marriage commenced; and Western societies seemed to lose all sense of inherited family order."Dutch demographer Dirk van de Kaa traces the phenomenon to four transformations: (A) A shift from the golden age of marriage to the dawn of a new age of cohabitation. (B) A shift from a time of "king-child" with parents to that of king-parents with one child. (C) A shift from preventive contraception, to benefit early children, to self-fulfilling contraception, to benefit parents. (D) A shift from a uniform family system to a pluralistic system of families and households, including single-parent families.As the drop-off in the birthrate began in the mid-1960's, this is the site to excavate to discover the causes of this tectonic shift in attitude of American and Western women away from having children. What ideas did the boomers bring to maturity? What ideas did they absorb in college?to be continuedIn ChristJeff

rookie Dec 6, 2005

This is a side note. This was sent to me by one of my fellow workers. Very interesting eye-opener... DEMOCRATS: * Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71. * David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72. * Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade. * Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam. * Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII. * John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts. * Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea. * Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Paraplegic from war injuries. Served in Congress. * Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53. * Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. * Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91. * Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. * Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier's Medal. * Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit. * Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart. * Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V. * Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star. * Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57 * Chuck Robb: Vietnam * Howell Heflin: Silver Star * George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII. * Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311. * Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy. * Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953 * John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and AirMedal with 18 Clusters. * Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg. REPUBLICANS -- and these are the guys SENDING PEOPLE TO WAR: * Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage. * Dennis Hastert: did not serve. * Tom Delay: did not serve. Roy Blunt: did not serve. * Bill Frist: did not serve. * Mitch McConnell: did not serve. * Rick Santorum: did not serve. * Trent Lott: did not serve. * John Ahcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business. * Jeb Bush: did not serve. * Karl Rove: did not serve. (Bush's Machiavelli) * Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism. * Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve. Neocon warhawk * Vin Weber: did not serve. * Richard Perle: did not serve. Neocon warhawk * Douglas Feith: did not serve. * Eliot Abrams: did not serve. * Richard Shelby: did not serve. * Jon! Kyl: did not serve. * Tim Hutchison: did not serve. * Christopher Cox: did not serve. * Newt Gingrich: did not serve. * Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor. * George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty. * Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non- combat role making movies. * B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea. * Phil Gramm: did not serve. * John McCain: Vietnam POW, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Remember how the Bush campaign trashed him in the Republican primaries in 2000? * Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve. * John M. McHugh: did not serve. * JC Watts: did not serve. * Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem, " although continued in NFL for 8 years as quarterback. (Win one for the Gipper!!) * Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard. * Rudy Giuliani: did not serve. * George Pataki: did not serve. * Spencer Abraham: did not serve. * John Engler: did not serve. * Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer. * Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base. (Our gift from Austria) Pundits * Sean Hannity: did not serve. * Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.') * Bill O'Reilly: did not serve. * Michael Savage: did not serve. * George Will: did not serve. * Chris Matthews: did not serve. * Paul Gigot: did not serve. * Bill Bennett: did not serve. * Pat Buchanan: did not serve.* Bill Kristol: did not serve. * Kenneth Starr: did not serve. * Antonin Scalia: did not serve. * Clarence Thomas: did not serve. * Ralph Reed: did not serve. * Michael Medved: did not serve.It just doesn't seem right that those who have not sacrificed are also those who have spoken out against Congressman Murtha of Pennsylvania when he suggested that America should change coarse. What do you think? This list really was an eye opener.In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Dec 6, 2005

whoa :-?

sermonindex Dec 6, 2005

half of me is angered, half of me is not surprised, another half says........oh boy....thanks for the post brother.

Compton Dec 7, 2005

Very interesting list indeed...however their is one unbearable distortion in one of your headings...REPUBLICANS -- and these are the guys SENDING PEOPLE TO WAR:If only things were this black and white. Vote for the Democrats and we would never go to war. Does anyone remember Clinton's military expeditions...or does the press only count casualties under a Republicans admin. Again, I am not a hardcore Republican but in these surreal times I think we should strive to avoid further warping of reality...such as rewriting what actually happened on the way to Baghdad. Here is a list of Democrats also responsible for the present war..."I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 "We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction." - Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."Letter to President Clinton. - (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 MC

rookie Dec 7, 2005

Brother Mike,There is nothing being rewritten, these are current events. This is a deception to think things are being changed. We are only now beginning to find out the truth. Second thought...I read the thoughts of those who voted to go to war. Each one stated that it is a good idea to remove Sadam Hussein from power and to prevent Iraq from using WMD's. This was the stated reason for which they voted to give the executive branch the power to conduct war. Well, now we know that Hussein has been removed from power. We know that there are no WMD's. So why are we now still fighting. The goal has changed hasn't it. We now want to spread "democracy" all over the world. The purpose for going to war is no more. Yet, the goals have been changed. The spread of democracy somehow speaks of the religion of humanism.In ChristJeff

GaryE Dec 7, 2005

Brother Jeff,This is a self defense issue. The United States has chosen to make a stand in Iraq. The radical anti-western position of the terrorists is not a new thing, it has been going on for years. The high jacking of air planes, bombing of innocent people etc. has been going on for well over thirty years. Now, because of oil wealth, we have people that have a lot of money that support people that are trying to bring about their evil control of the world. In recent years the radical terrorists became better organized and trained in Afghanistan.Years ago Libya bought up much of the world supply of plastic explosives. Tons of explosives that couldn't be identified with x-rays. The material only had a 20 year expected life period and some of this material doesn't go off today when bombs are set. This is why fighters were sent to Libya and why Libya was thought of as a threat to our country years ago. Libya is at, least for now, out of the picture but that material is still very much in the picture because much of the plastic explosives are now in terrorists hands.Again, this is a self-defense issue. Things that go on today will have an affect on tomorrow. The western world will either get a handle on this today or, just like the plastic explosives of Libya, will have to be dealt with tomorrow.As I've stated before, it is my opinion that a Christian can not just stand by and let evil happen if there is anything they can do about it. This to me means getting into a war if that is what it takes.Also, it is probable that Iraq cleaned out its closet before the war. I heard this was going on over a year before the invasion and that it was going into Syria. Iraq had a heads up because we went into Afghanistan.This is a self-defense issue. Some Christians believe it is wrong to self defend other people or themselves. I believe it is wrong to let evil go on without trying to do something about it when it is possible to interveign.In Christ,GaryE

rookie Dec 7, 2005

Brother Gary wrote:Now, because of oil wealth, we have people that have a lot of money that support people that are trying to bring about their evil control of the world. My point, although sometimes not to clear, is to search for what is evil and root out the lie in the matters of this world. My question in regards to your response is:Why didn't the United States invade Saudi Arabia? This nation truly is the source of the terrorism. Wasn't 16 of the 19, Saudi participants in the 9/11 attacks? Aren't the Saudi's the source of money backing the terrorist networks? We have found that there were no ties between Iraq and Al Queda. What about Saudi Arabia and Al Queada?These questions are not meant as a rebuttal to your thoughts, rather what are we being led to believe by the propaganda machine that has it's roots in humanism.Remember, according to Scripture the whole world will be looking for a man to save them.In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 7, 2005

Does anyone remember the 9|11 report? Do you remember that 28 pages of the report were blanked out which concerned Saudi invovlement? “The Joint Inquiry Into Intelligence Community Activities Before and After the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001,” which was released in late 2002, included 28 pages that were blanked out, apparently concerning the possible role of Saudi government officials. In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 7, 2005

Also, about two pages ago in this thread, Osama bin Laden predicted that the U.S. was going to invade Iraq back in 1997 or 1998. How did he know?In ChristJeff

GaryE Dec 7, 2005

Brother Jeff,Within the Muslim world there are radicals and moderates. Many of the Muslim countries are governed by moderates and are threatened by the radical Muslim terrorists who want to get control of these countries. There are many people in Saudi Arabia who support terrorism and also want to get control of Saudi Arabia. The king of Saudi Arabia is threatened by Al Queda and probably a majority of the people of Saudi Arabia are a threat to him.Anwar Sadat was murdered by the terrorists in Egypt. The king of Jordan is threatened by Al Queda. Any country that has any peaceful attitude towards the West is endangered by the radical Muslims.These kings are not Christians but they aren't trying to kill us like the radicals. Their motives may be selfish and not of God, but they are not threatening people in other countries. It is one thing having a neighbor that isn't friendly towards you, as compared to a neighbor that would burn your house down if the opportunity arrose.We have been forced into war by these radical terrorists who want to take over the whole world and force every one to be Muslim.Jeff, you brought up a propaganda machine that is rooted in humanism. When I think of propaganda I remember back to the Viet Nam era when the secular press in the U.S. used propaganda to get our country out of Viet Nam. Many youths, including myself, soaked it up to the point we cut and ran and left that country fall. If you look at humanism as a life that lives for today and life is only about being happy today, where was the humanism in staying in Viet Nam. There was a little oil, a little rubber, and a potential tourist land was there but that was about it. The propaganda that was humanism was to get out so we can preserve our life. The secular press that was not willing to die because they loved this world gave us a bunch of propaganda to save their face.The Sadducees were rich and didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead. Life was about being happy now. The Epicureans on Mars hill were the same way. It's all a philosophy and doctrine about living now and being happy now. So, obviously if I'm sold on that propaganda, I'm not going to be found in Viet Nam or Iraq. I might lose this life.In Christ,GaryE

rookie Dec 7, 2005

Brother Gary,Will democracy prevent or enable the Islamic fanatics drive to install Sharia law in Iraq?In terms of Vietnam, the issue was to prevent Communism's spread. We lost, but as you have truly pointed out that where the people believe in something they will give their life for it. Osama bin Laden, trained and provisioned by the U.S. destroyed the Soviet Union. That country went bankrupt. The real question is what is God doing in all of this? It it a time where He is hardening the heart of Pharoah to bring down a curse on the nation so that they might cry out to Him? Or is it a time of blessing for this nation? What is the fruit?In ChristJeff

Compton Dec 7, 2005

There is nothing being rewritten, these are current events. This is a deception to think things are being changed.Goodness, how can you say that. I just posted quotes from these people saying they were for dissarming Iraq, who voted for the action..and are now making it a partisan issue! To be fair to the Democrats...I don't believe they really ever were for the war. They voted for it because they wanted to ride the political wave of zealous patriotism that was sweeping post 9/11 America at the time. And now, that the war is losing popularity, they are changing their position on it. My frustration about blaming Bush does not mean that I am either conservative or liberal per se…just that I don’t think the goal of leaving Iraq justifies spreading false witness and out-right lies about the President.I think this country (edit:extreme partisanship) is destroying the only way out of Iraq…we need bi-partisan ownership of repsonsibility for the war and the subsequent reconstruction. If the Democrats really believe the war was a mistake then they should begin with an admissions to their own role in this mistake. It would be much more compelling for the American forgiving voter and might have the effect of leaving Bush and the Republicans in the moral rear position. Yet because the Dems will own up to nothing, choosing instead to portray the President as a cowboy, they are missing an opportunity for moral leadership. Even though the Democrats cause has merit, they seem to be positioning failure in Iraq as their ticket to the Whitehouse, and in doing so have made the political stakes so high that neither side will back down untill it becomes a catstrophic threat. They began bi-partisan, but they have retreated...and they want the country to follow. Yet, that wouldn't be so bad if they would be truthful about their own contribution to the situation. Instead the left are demonizing Bush, and our foolishly leaving him no path for an honorable exit. Such naked appeasement of popular sentiment is not only cowardly, it is potentially volatile.This is my frustration with some, (not all) of your comments Rookie. On one had you are wisely cultivating emphathy with our “enemies”, trying to understand their possible motivations and identifying with their humanity. I believe this is a good descipline in times of war. (It was a key to our good fortunes during the Cuban Missile crisis.) Yet you seem to show no emphathy for the President…believing the most outrageous bloggosphere allegations. Not only is this approach unprincipled…it has a strategic flaw. In fear and anger, the only door we leave Bush is for him to confess that he is a war criminal and an international pirate. In other words, we have made it nearly impossible for him to modify his position on Iraq!…his own honor and more importantly the honor of the country has been greedily challenged…by the very weasels who voted for the war in the first place. I don’t believe we as Christians should be putting too much stock in all of these Pat Buchanon, Michael Moore fearmongering conspiracy theories, nor to Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson white-man burden braggadocio and bombast. Instead I think we should always try to maintain cautious emphathy with our leaders, even with those we disagree with, just as you are doing with our foriegn and military enemies. Spreading unprovable notions or cynical intepretations of these events does not increase our understanding...only our passion. MC

sermonindex Dec 7, 2005

I don't understand what you wrote in your post.... When I think of propaganda I remember back to the Viet Nam era when the secular press in the U.S. used propaganda to get our country out of Viet Nam. what do you mean?what does this If you look at humanism as a life that lives for today and life is only about being happy today, where was the humanism in staying in Viet Nam. mean?Are you saying that Vietnam was a just war, as is the war in Iraq?..... and that it's the "humanists" and their secular agenda that bring out defeat?I'm confused as to what you are saying.

GaryE Dec 8, 2005

Brother Neil,I was little when the Viet Nam era started. For some reason a conversation has stuck in my mind I heard when I was around some adults. In the conversation they were speaking about the moral reason to go to Viet Nam and protect those people from being taken over by communists. While there were probably people who thought to profit by war, there were many people who got involved with that war for a moral reason.As the years went by the secular press chose to report more and more about the difficulties of war. Maybe their reporting on bad news is what sells and conflict brings them money. Eventually, the reporting made heroes out of anyone that would be a traitor. Yes, I look at the secular press of sponsoring propaganda against the war in Viet Nam for their own benefit whether that is to sell news or to protect their own self-righteous face.Jeff sometimes looks at the motive for war as being from people who gain to profit financially from war. The Civil War could be an example. Most people are taught that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery. In a sense this is true, but the fact is it was the moral issue of slavery that went on before the war wouldn't go away until the war was fought. Other motives in the Civil War were not about the morality of slavery at all. Some people stood to get or hold onto great wealth. Their propaganda was so they could get or keep that wealth and be happy in this life. Like the Sadducees that did not believe in the resurrection of the dead they needed that happiness now.With Viet Nam it doesn't look like there was a lot of wealth to gain. There was some oil there and some rubber but not that much to fight a war over if your object was wealth. If you are a humanist in that situation your propaganda would be to get out. Humanism doesn't lose its life in this world, it holds on to it. Yes, I am implying that humanism is what got us out of Viet Nam.In Christ,GaryE

rookie Dec 8, 2005

I wrote:There is nothing being rewritten, these are current events. This is a deception to think things are being changed.I guess I did not say clearly what I meant to say. What I mean to say is this. Yes, many in our government voted for a war based on removing Sadam Hussein from power and also to remove a perceived threat of WMDs. This was the reasons given for going to war. Now these events are currently evolving are they not? For those who voted for the war are not those objectives accomplished? Is not Sadam Hussein disposed? Is not the threat of WMDs proven to be no threat? What I see that has changed is the mission. The Americans were brought to war based on fear. The objects of that fear have been dealt with. But what really is the objective now? How does fighting terrorism align with what is going on now? Will democracy solve the reason for terrorism?Has democracy solved what is wrong in this country? We have lived in an age where 40,000,000 children have been sent through the fire, just like the OT talks about. We have lived in an age where the culture of media disseminates hedonism throughout the world. We are the democracy which promotes globalism through our economic policies. We hope that our brand of democracy will dilute the religious beliefs of extreme Islam? How has this same democracy diluted our own Christianity?In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 8, 2005

Brother Mike wrote:Yet you seem to show no emphathy for the President…believing the most outrageous bloggosphere allegations.I have nothing in common with those who are dead and without God. The President has chosen to surround himself with non-believers. According to Scripture it is not possible to have empathy for non believers, only enmity. Genesis 3:1515 \tAnd I will put enmity\tBetween you and the woman,\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;\tHe shall bruise your head,\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.” How can a generation change by enforcing the law of Moses? Forcing Democracy on nations who view this form of govenment as evil will not work. This is a lost cause. There is no hope. Only by the law of the Spirit in Christ is their hope. The kings and the princes of this world will never be able to escape the hold of Satan their father. From the very beginning, there are only those who will escape that hold and those who choose to remain. What do you see in this world that gives you hope?In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 8, 2005

continuing in the bookpage 29"The boomers arrived on campus in the fall of 1964. They were the first American generation with the freedom and the means to choose how they wanted to live their lives. In the 1930s, college had been a privilege only a few could afford. Family decisions were imposed by family hardships. If the breadwinner lost his job, sons and daughters could forget about college; they had to quit school and find work. Tens of millions still lived in small towns in rural America, where the Depression had hit the farms long before the 1929 Crash that hit Wall Street. After Pearl Harbor, the war and the war economy made the career decisions for America's young. The Silent Generation of the fifties grew up with parents, teachers, and clergy still as authority figures. Not until 1957 did Professor Galbraith discover that we were all living in The Affluent Society.But the parents who had gone through the Depression and the war were determined that "my kid's not going to have it as rough as I did." so the baby boomers were raised differently, spending almost as many hours in front of a television as in school. By the mid-1950s, parent had a serious rival for their children's attention, and youngsters had an entertaining and witty ally, and a privileged sanctuary to retreat to, in the age-old struggle against parents. The message that came from TV, especially the ads, was instant gratification.By 1964, the year of Mario Savio and the Free Speech movement at Berkeley, when the first wave of boomers hit the campuses, never having kown hardship or war, it was ready to rock. And though the student riots and rebellions were blamed on LBJ, Nixon, Agnew, and Vietnam, this will not do. For student rebellions were not confined to America. They broke out across Europe and even in Japan. As the 1968 Days of Rage tore apart the Democratic party in the streets of Chicago, Czech students who made the Prague Spring were facing Russian tanks, Mexican students were being shot down in the streets of the capital, and French students almost seized Paris from President de Gaulle. What baby boomers had in common with contemporaries abroad was not Vietnam, but their numbers, affluence, security, and freedom, and the televised example of their peers all over the world. In childhood, they had all had the same baby-sitter, TV---a baby-sitter more entertaining than the parents. Its incessant ad message was the same. "Kids! You need this ---now!"(end of thought)Remember back in the beginning of this thread how Madison avenue was able to glean the techniques of the mind scientists that came out of Nazi Germany at the end of WW 2. How has our Christiany been diluted by the Secular powers of this world?In ChristJeff

Compton Dec 8, 2005

Yes, many in our government voted for a war based on removing Sadam Hussein from power and also to remove a perceived threat of WMDs...This was really the point I didn't want to lose sight of. Regardless of the merits of democracy or the war, we cannot allow the Democrats to "blame" Bush. (edit:and not themselves as well.) The President may have done the wrong thing (another discussion) but at least he is standing consistent...the left in this country has really been a disappointment with their political transformation. How immoral and irresponsible they are...voting to take our nation to war and then acting appalled at the humanity of it all. Some of these weasels surely remembered the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, so claiming that Bush "lied" to them is pitiful. These men and women were involved in the various security councils and were equally responsible for the intelligence reporting WMD's. And last but not least, let's not forget the state department whose mid-east policies are bedrock regardless of the various administrations....For those who voted for the war are not those objectives accomplished? Is not Sadam Hussein disposed? Is not the threat of WMDs proven to be no threat? The Americans were brought to war based on fear. The objects of that fear have been dealt with. But what really is the objective now? Certainly the specter and question of Saddam endangering America is past but there remains the issue of stability.If we leave, and thousands or tens of thousands of people die at the hand of some Iranian supported radical...well their blood is equally on the hands of our government at this point. One thing is becoming certain; that there is no certainty in Iraq. The thing is a bloody mess, at least that’s the news we are recieiving. Sometimes I think I hear shades of Lyndon B. Johnson when I hear Bush talking about how well the training, and liberation in Iraq is going. (Maybe it's the Texas accent.) And has anyone noticed the eerie resemblance between Rumsfeld and McNamara? Still we don’t have 500,000 men there yet, and unlike Vietnam, the majority of Iraqi citizens wanted Saddam out. Speaking of McNamara and Vietnam, this situation reminds of a quote of his from the recent documentary “Fog of War.” He was reluctant to discuss Vietnam any further so the interviewer quipped at him,” It sounds like you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t”. McNamara, avoiding controversy, replied “That’s right, and I’d rather be damned if I don’t!”That’s how I feel about this world brother. (edit: it feels there are no right choices left.) If only the Church could be made up of nationless Christians who didn’t have to worry about damnable issues like national security and natural resources. Francis of Assisi was correct when he said something to the effect,“The only way to eliminate war is to eliminate property.” His comment was profound even as it was useless. Perhaps one day the thoroughbred Christian will have to claim true alien status on this planet, expecting no priviledge nor protection from any nation or society. (I have to admit that won’t be me...I wouldn't know how.)I don’t know who said it but there is a saying that speaks of a brighter day coming. “The darkest hour has only 60 minutes.”MC

rookie Dec 9, 2005

(thought continued, page 30)“With millions of young women “liberated” from parents, teachers, and preachers, with money to burn, and with the in loco parentis authority of dons and deans crumbling, the revolutions rolled over the campuses: the antiwar movement (Hey, hey, LBJ, /How many kids did you kill today?” and “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh/ The NFL is going to win!”); the drug revolution (“turn on, tune in, and drop out”); and the sexual revolution (“make love, not war”).Then came the women’s movement, modeled on the civil rights movement; it won converts even in Middle America. As blacks had demanded equal rights with whites, women demanded the same rights as men. Nothing less than full equality. If the boys can sow their wild oats in frat houses and singles bars and with one-night stands, why not us? But as nature did not design the sexes that way, and the consequences of promiscuity are unequally borne by women, in the form of babies, solutions had to be found. The magic of the marketplace did the rest. If you forgot to take the pill, or the contraceptive didn’t work, the local abortionist would not fail. The old sanctions against promiscuity collapsed. Nature’s sanctions---unwanted pregnancy and fear of disease---were taken care of by the pill, available abortion, and the new miracle drugs. No need for shotgun marriages. One teary-eyed trip to the Center for Reproductive Rights gets the job done. The fear of social stigma--- loss of reputation---was lifted by a popular culture that celebrated the sexual revolution and applauded as “swingers” girls who in the 1940s and 1950s might have been called less attractive names. THE MORAL SANCTIONS---THE SENSE OF SHAME AND SIN, OF VIOLATING GOD’S LAW, OF RISKING ONE’S IMMORTAL SOUL---WERE EASED BY A NEW BREED OF “ARE-YOU-RUNNING-WITH-ME-JESUS?’ PRIESTS AND PASTORS WHO WON HUGE POPULARITY BY EXPLAINING THAT HE (OR SHE) WAS JUST NOT THAT KIND OF “JUDGEMENTAL” GOD AND, HEY, “HELL IS ONLY A METAPHOR!”Not only did the old sanctions collapse, a new way of measuring morality emerged to justify and even to sanctify “doing one’s own thing.” Under the new code, morality was now to be determined not by who slept with whom or who inhaled what—trivial matters of personal preference---but by who went South for civil rights, who protested apartheid, who had marched against the “dirty, immoral war” in Vietnam. As has often been true in history, a new moral code was crafted to justify the new lifestyle already adopted. As they indulged themselves in sex, drugs, riots, and rock and roll, the young Jacobins had the reassurance of their indulgent and pandering elders that, yes, indeed, “This is the finest young generation we have ever produced.” Has it not ever been so with revolutions? “Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive/ But to be young, very heaven!” burbled the great Wadsworth of an earlier revolution that turned out rather badly. (to be continued)Do you see the false gods that we have created. The God of the OT is the same as the NT. Jesus was the stumbling stone for the OT saints just as He is for those who profess Him and yet practice lawlessness. Isaiah 358 \tA highway shall be there, and a road,\tAnd it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.\tThe unclean shall not pass over it,\tBut it shall be for others.\tWhoever walks the road, although a fool,\tShall not go astray. The Ancient Path has been dispised by those who think they are wise according to the wisdom of this world.In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 9, 2005

Brother Mike wrote: Perhaps one day the thoroughbred Christian will have to claim true alien status on this planet, expecting no priviledge nor protection from any nation or society. This is the purpose of this thread. The meat of the word of God seperates our hopes from this world. The Holy Scriptures teach that there is only evil in fallen man. The only hope that saves is in Jesus Christ. Growing into maturity in Christ will overcome this world because He overcame this world. If our mind is like Paul's, forgetting the things of the past, we should look onward and upward to the call of Christ in our lives. This call brings liberty. The things of the the past represent the bondage to Satan's lie. In Christ Jeff

Compton Dec 9, 2005

The meat of the word of God seperates our hopes from this world. The Holy Scriptures teach that there is only evil in fallen man. The only hope that saves is in Jesus Christ.Amen Jeff.

IRONMAN Dec 10, 2005

bro Jeffthat quote from brother mike reminds me of a bold statement borther Baruch said some time ago, WE DON'T NEED RIGHTS. the day is fast coming that we shall recognize fully our pilgrim status on this planet.

rookie Dec 12, 2005

Page 31"In the 1960s, both a student rebellion and a cultural revolution rolled over the campuses. When the rebels graduated, got jobs, and got married, they ceased to be rebels, taking their place in the country of their parents and voting for Ronald Reagan; though it took some--our president comes to mind---perhaps longer than others to "break away."The sixties' rebels, however, were not the revolutionaries. Converts to the revolution came to college thinking and believing one way and left thinking and believing an entirely different way that changed their whole lives. Hillary Rodham, the Goldwater Girl who came to Wellesley in 1965 and left as a social radical in 1969, with new values, a new moral code, and a steely resolve to change the corrupt society in which she had been raised, is as good an example of the revoluionary as Mr. Bush is of the rebel.The cultural revolution that swept America's campuses was a true revolution. In a third of a century the Judeo-Christian moral order it defied has been rejected by millions. Its hostility to Ozzie-and-Harriet America has been internalized by our cultural elites, and through their domination of our opinion--and value-shaping institutions--film, TV, the theater, magazines, music--these evangelists of revolution have spread their gospel all over the world and converted scores of millions. We are two Americas; Mother Angelica and the Sunday sermon compete with Ally McBeal and Sex and the City. And the message the dominant culture emits, day and night, reacts with mocking laughter to the old idea that the good life for a woman means a husband and a houseful of kids. And there are now powerful collateral forces in society that are also pulling American women away from the maternity ward forever."(to be continued)Do you see the methods by which the winds of doctrine are diseminated?In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 12, 2005

side noteWomen's group vows to again appeal Colombia's abortion ban.Bogota, Columbia--Days after Columbia's highest court rejected a case challenging the country's complete prohibition on abortion, an international women's rights group says it is planning to file another suit on Monday.Monica Roa, a Bogota lawyer who works for Women's Link Worldwide, had sought to legalize abortion when a mother's life is in danger, when the fetus is expected to die from abnormalities or when the pregnancy is the result of rape.(end of short article in the Bakersfield paper)The Ford Foundation is one of the funders for this group. It seems that the Fords have promoted other organizations in times past. One of the most noteworthy, Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party.In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 12, 2005

Listen to the goals set forth by the religion that one day will unite the world, that is the lost world. Listen to how these people preach peace, freedom, and democracy for all. What do you see around you? Do you hear the kings and princes words in the manifesto below?Humanist Manifesto IIIt is forty years since Humanist Manifesto I (1933) appeared. Events since then make that earlier statement seem far too optimistic. Nazism has shown the depths of brutality of which humanity is capable. Other totalitarian regimes have suppressed human rights without ending poverty. Science has sometimes brought evil as well as good. Recent decades have shown that inhuman wars can be made in the name of peace. The beginnings of police states, even in democratic societies, widespread government espionage, and other abuses of power by military, political, and industrial elites, and the continuance of unyielding racism, all present a different and difficult social outlook. In various societies, the demands of women and minority groups for equal rights effectively challenge our generation.As we approach the twenty-first century, however, an affirmative and hopeful vision is needed. Faith, commensurate with advancing knowledge, is also necessary. In the choice between despair and hope, humanists respond in this Humanist Manifesto II with a positive declaration for times of uncertainty.As in 1933, humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to live and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith. Salvationism, based on mere affirmation, still appears as harmful, diverting people with false hopes of heaven hereafter. Reasonable minds look to other means for survival.Those who sign Humanist Manifesto II disclaim that they are setting forth a binding credo; their individual views would be stated in widely varying ways. This statement is, however, reaching for vision in a time that needs direction. It is social analysis in an effort at consensus. New statements should be developed to supersede this, but for today it is our conviction that humanism offers an alternative that can serve present-day needs and guide humankind toward the future.-- Paul Kurtz and Edwin H. Wilson (1973) The next century can be and should be the humanistic century. Dramatic scientific, technological, and ever-accelerating social and political changes crowd our awareness. We have virtually conquered the planet, explored the moon, overcome the natural limits of travel and communication; we stand at the dawn of a new age, ready to move farther into space and perhaps inhabit other planets. Using technology wisely, we can control our environment, conquer poverty, markedly reduce disease, extend our life-span, significantly modify our behavior, alter the course of human evolution and cultural development, unlock vast new powers, and provide humankind with unparalleled opportunity for achieving an abundant and meaningful life.The future is, however, filled with dangers. In learning to apply the scientific method to nature and human life, we have opened the door to ecological damage, over-population, dehumanizing institutions, totalitarian repression, and nuclear and bio- chemical disaster. Faced with apocalyptic prophesies and doomsday scenarios, many flee in despair from reason and embrace irrational cults and theologies of withdrawal and retreat.Traditional moral codes and newer irrational cults both fail to meet the pressing needs of today and tomorrow. False "theologies of hope" and messianic ideologies, substituting new dogmas for old, cannot cope with existing world realities. They separate rather than unite peoples.Humanity, to survive, requires bold and daring measures. We need to extend the uses of scientific method, not renounce them, to fuse reason with compassion in order to build constructive social and moral values. Confronted by many possible futures, we must decide which to pursue. The ultimate goal should be the fulfill- ment of the potential for growth in each human personality -- not for the favored few, but for all of humankind. Only a shared world and global measures will suffice.A humanist outlook will tap the creativity of each human being and provide the vision and courage for us to work together. This outlook emphasizes the role human beings can play in their own spheres of action. The decades ahead call for dedicated, clear- minded men and women able to marshal the will, intelligence, and cooperative skills for shaping a desirable future. Humanism can provide the purpose and inspiration that so many seek; it can give personal meaning and significance to human life.Many kinds of humanism exist in the contemporary world. The varieties and emphases of naturalistic humanism include "scientific," "ethical," "democratic," "religious," and "Marxist" humanism. Free thought, atheism, agnosticism, skepticism, deism, rationalism, ethical culture, and liberal religion all claim to be heir to the humanist tradition. Humanism traces its roots from ancient China, classical Greece and Rome, through the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, to the scientific revolution of the modern world. But views that merely reject theism are not equivalent to humanism. They lack commitment to the positive belief in the possibilities of human progress and to the values central to it. Many within religious groups, believing in the future of humanism, now claim humanist credentials. Humanism is an ethical process through which we all can move, above and beyond the divisive particulars, heroic personalities, dogmatic creeds, and ritual customs of past religions or their mere negation.We affirm a set of common principles that can serve as a basis for united action -- positive principles relevant to the present human condition. They are a design for a secular society on a planetary scale.For these reasons, we submit this new Humanist Manifesto for the future of humankind; for us, it is a vision of hope, a direction for satisfying survival.ReligionFIRST: In the best sense, religion may inspire dedication to the highest ethical ideals. The cultivation of moral devotion and creative imagination is an expression of genuine "spiritual" experience and aspiration. We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or authoritarian religions that place revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a disservice to the human species. Any account of nature should pass the tests of scientific evidence; in our judgment, the dogmas and myths of traditional religions do not do so. Even at this late date in human history, certain elementary facts based upon the critical use of scientific reason have to be restated. We find insufficient evidence for belief in the existence of a supernatural; it is either meaningless or irrelevant to the question of survival and fulfillment of the human race. As nontheists, we begin with humans not God, nature not deity. Nature may indeed be broader and deeper than we now know; any new discoveries, however, will but enlarge our knowledge of the natural. Some humanists believe we should reinterpret traditional religions and reinvest them with meanings appropriate to the current situation. Such redefinitions, however, often perpetuate old dependencies and escapisms; they easily become obscurantist, impeding the free use of the intellect. We need, instead, radically new human purposes and goals. We appreciate the need to preserve the best ethical teachings in the religious traditions of humankind, many of which we share in common. But we reject those features of traditional religious morality that deny humans a full appreciation of their own potentialities and responsibilities. Traditional religions often offer solace to humans, but, as often, they inhibit humans from helping themselves or experiencing their full potentialities. Such institutions, creeds, and rituals often impede the will to serve others. Too often traditional faiths encourage dependence rather than independence, obedience rather than affirmation, fear rather than courage. More recently they have generated concerned social action, with many signs of relevance appearing in the wake of the "God Is Dead" theologies. But we can discover no divine purpose or providence for the human species. While there is much that we do not know, humans are responsible for what we are or will become. No deity will save us; we must save ourselves. SECOND: Promises of immortal salvation or fear of eternal damnation are both illusory and harmful. They distract humans from present concerns, from self-actualization, and from rectifying social injustices. Modern science discredits such historic concepts as the "ghost in the machine" and the "separable soul." Rather, science affirms that the human species is an emergence from natural evolutionary forces. As far as we know, the total personality is a function of the biological organism transacting in a social and cultural context. There is no credible evidence that life survives the death of the body. We continue to exist in our progeny and in the way that our lives have influenced others in our culture. Traditional religions are surely not the only obstacles to human progress. Other ideologies also impede human advance. Some forms of political doctrine, for instance, function religiously, re- flecting the worst features of orthodoxy and authoritarianism, especially when they sacrifice individuals on the altar of Utopian promises. Purely economic and political viewpoints, whether cap- italist or communist, often function as religious and ideological dogma. Although humans undoubtedly need economic and political goals, they also need creative values by which to live.EthicsTHIRD: We affirm that moral values derive their source from human experience. Ethics is autonomous and situational needing no theological or ideological sanction. Ethics stems from human need and interest. To deny this distorts the whole basis of life. Human life has meaning because we create and develop our futures. Happiness and the creative realization of human needs and desires, individually and in shared enjoyment, are continuous themes of humanism. We strive for the good life, here and now. The goal is to pursue life's enrichment despite debasing forces of vulgar- ization, commercialization, and dehumanization. FOURTH: Reason and intelligence are the most effective instruments that humankind possesses. There is no substitute: neither faith nor passion suffices in itself. The controlled use of scientific methods, which have transformed the natural and social sciences since the Renaissance, must be extended further in the solution of human problems. But reason must be tempered by humility, since no group has a monopoly of wisdom or virtue. Nor is there any guarantee that all problems can be solved or all questions answered. Yet critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled. Thus, we are not advocating the use of scientific intelligence independent of or in opposition to emotion, for we believe in the cultivation of feeling and love. As science pushes back the boundary of the known, humankind's sense of wonder is continually renewed, and art, poetry, and music find their places, along with religion and ethics.The IndividualFIFTH: The preciousness and dignity of the individual person is a central humanist value. Individuals should be encouraged to realize their own creative talents and desires. We reject all religious, ideological, or moral codes that denigrate the individual, suppress freedom, dull intellect, dehumanize person- ality. We believe in maximum individual autonomy consonant with social responsibility. Although science can account for the causes of behavior, the possibilities of individual freedom of choice exist in human life and should be increased. SIXTH: In the area of sexuality, we believe that intolerant attitudes, often cultivated by orthodox religions and puritanical cultures, unduly repress sexual conduct. The right to birth control, abortion, and divorce should be recognized. While we do not approve of exploitive, denigrating forms of sexual expression, neither do we wish to prohibit, by law or social sanction, sexual behavior between consenting adults. The many varieties of sexual exploration should not in themselves be considered "evil." Without countenancing mindless permissiveness or unbridled promiscuity, a civilized society should be a tolerant one. Short of harming others or compelling them to do likewise, individuals should be permitted to express their sexual proclivities and pursue their life-styles as they desire. We wish to cultivate the development of a responsible attitude toward sexuality, in which humans are not exploited as sexual objects, and in which intimacy, sensitivity, respect, and honesty in interpersonal relations are encouraged. Moral education for children and adults is an important way of developing awareness and sexual maturity.Democratic SocietySEVENTH: To enhance freedom and dignity the individual must experience a full range of civil liberties in all societies. This includes freedom of speech and the press, political democracy, the legal right of opposition to governmental policies, fair judicial process, religious liberty, freedom of association, and artistic, scientific, and cultural freedom. It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide. We oppose the increasing invasion of privacy, by whatever means, in both totalitarian and democratic societies. We would safeguard, extend, and implement the principles of human freedom evolved from the Magna Carta to the Bill of Rights, the Rights of Man, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. EIGHTH: We are committed to an open and democratic society. We must extend participatory democracy in its true sense to the economy, the school, the family, the workplace, and voluntary associations. Decision-making must be decentralized to include widespread involvement of people at all levels -- social, political, and economic. All persons should have a voice in developing the values and goals that determine their lives. Institutions should be responsive to expressed desires and needs. The conditions of work, education, devotion, and play should be humanized. Alienating forces should be modified or eradicated and bureaucratic structures should be held to a minimum. People are more important than decalogues, rules, proscriptions, or regulations. NINTH: The separation of church and state and the separation of ideology and state are imperatives. The state should encourage maximum freedom for different moral, political, religious, and social values in society. It should not favor any particular religious bodies through the use of public monies, nor espouse a single ideology and function thereby as an instrument of propaganda or oppression, particularly against dissenters. TENTH: Humane societies should evaluate economic systems not by rhetoric or ideology, but by whether or not they increase economic well-being for all individuals and groups, minimize poverty and hardship, increase the sum of human satisfaction, and enhance the quality of life. Hence the door is open to alternative economic systems. We need to democratize the economy and judge it by its responsiveness to human needs, testing results in terms of the common good. ELEVENTH: The principle of moral equality must be furthered through elimination of all discrimination based upon race, religion, sex, age, or national origin. This means equality of opportunity and recognition of talent and merit. Individuals should be encouraged to contribute to their own betterment. If unable, then society should provide means to satisfy their basic economic, health, and cultural needs, including, wherever resources make possible, a minimum guaranteed annual income. We are concerned for the welfare of the aged, the infirm, the disadvantaged, and also for the outcasts -- the mentally retarded, abandoned, or abused children, the handicapped, prisoners, and addicts -- for all who are neglected or ignored by society. Practicing humanists should make it their vocation to humanize personal relations. We believe in the right to universal education. Everyone has a right to the cultural opportunity to fulfill his or her unique capacities and talents. The schools should foster satisfying and productive living. They should be open at all levels to any and all; the achievement of excellence should be encouraged. Innovative and experimental forms of education are to be welcomed. The energy and idealism of the young deserve to be appreciated and channeled to constructive purposes. We deplore racial, religious, ethnic, or class antagonisms. Although we believe in cultural diversity and encourage racial and ethnic pride, we reject separations which promote alienation and set people and groups against each other; we envision an integrated community where people have a maximum opportunity for free and voluntary association. We are critical of sexism or sexual chauvinism -- male or female. We believe in equal rights for both women and men to fulfill their unique careers and potentialities as they see fit, free of invidious discrimination.World CommunityTWELFTH: We deplore the division of humankind on nationalistic grounds. We have reached a turning point in human history where the best option is to transcend the limits of national sovereignty and to move toward the building of a world community in which all sectors of the human family can participate. Thus we look to the development of a system of world law and a world order based upon transnational federal government. This would appreciate cultural pluralism and diversity. It would not exclude pride in national origins and accomplishments nor the handling of regional problems on a regional basis. Human progress, however, can no longer be achieved by focusing on one section of the world, Western or Eastern, developed or underdeveloped. For the first time in human history, no part of humankind can be isolated from any other. Each person's future is in some way linked to all. We thus reaffirm a commitment to the building of world community, at the same time recognizing that this commits us to some hard choices. THIRTEENTH: This world community must renounce the resort to violence and force as a method of solving international disputes. We believe in the peaceful adjudication of differences by international courts and by the development of the arts of negotiation and compromise. War is obsolete. So is the use of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. It is a planetary imperative to reduce the level of military expenditures and turn these savings to peaceful and people-oriented uses. FOURTEENTH: The world community must engage in cooperative planning concerning the use of rapidly depleting resources. The planet earth must be considered a single ecosystem. Ecological damage, resource depletion, and excessive population growth must be checked by international concord. The cultivation and conservation of nature is a moral value; we should perceive ourselves as integral to the sources of our being in nature. We must free our world from needless pollution and waste, responsibly guarding and creating wealth, both natural and human. Exploi- tation of natural resources, uncurbed by social conscience, must end. FIFTEENTH: The problems of economic growth and development can no longer be resolved by one nation alone; they are worldwide in scope. It is the moral obligation of the developed nations to provide -- through an international authority that safeguards human rights -- massive technical, agricultural, medical, and economic assistance, including birth control techniques, to the developing portions of the globe. World poverty must cease. Hence extreme disproportions in wealth, income, and economic growth should be reduced on a worldwide basis. SIXTEENTH: Technology is a vital key to human progress and development. We deplore any neo-romantic efforts to condemn indiscriminately all technology and science or to counsel retreat from its further extension and use for the good of humankind. We would resist any moves to censor basic scientific research on moral, political, or social grounds. Technology must, however, be carefully judged by the consequences of its use; harmful and destructive changes should be avoided. We are particularly disturbed when technology and bureaucracy control, manipulate, or modify human beings without their consent. Technological feasibility does not imply social or cultural desirability. SEVENTEENTH: We must expand communication and transportation across frontiers. Travel restrictions must cease. The world must be open to diverse political, ideological, and moral viewpoints and evolve a worldwide system of television and radio for information and education. We thus call for full international cooperation in culture, science, the arts, and technology across ideological borders. We must learn to live openly together or we shall perish together.Humanity As a WholeIN CLOSING: The world cannot wait for a reconciliation of competing political or economic systems to solve its problems. These are the times for men and women of goodwill to further the building of a peaceful and prosperous world. We urge that parochial loyalties and inflexible moral and religious ideologies be transcended. We urge recognition of the common humanity of all people. We further urge the use of reason and compassion to produce the kind of world we want -- a world in which peace, prosperity, freedom, and happiness are widely shared. Let us not abandon that vision in despair or cowardice. We are responsible for what we are or will be. Let us work together for a humane world by means commensurate with humane ends. Destructive ideological differences among communism, capitalism, socialism, conservatism, liberalism, and radicalism should be overcome. Let us call for an end to terror and hatred. We will survive and prosper only in a world of shared humane values. We can initiate new directions for humankind; ancient rivalries can be superseded by broad-based cooperative efforts. The commitment to tolerance, understanding, and peaceful negotiation does not necessitate acquiescence to the status quo nor the damming up of dynamic and revolutionary forces. The true revolution is occurring and can continue in countless nonviolent adjustments. But this entails the willingness to step forward onto new and expanding plateaus. At the present juncture of history, commitment to all humankind is the highest commitment of which we are capable; it transcends the narrow allegiances of church, state, party, class, or race in moving toward a wider vision of human potentiality. What more daring a goal for humankind than for each person to become, in ideal as well as practice, a citizen of a world community. It is a classical vision; we can now give it new vitality. Humanism thus interpreted is a moral force that has time on its side. We believe that humankind has the potential, intelligence, goodwill, and cooperative skill to implement this commitment in the decades ahead.We, the undersigned, while not necessarily endorsing every detail of the above, pledge our general support to Humanist Manifesto II for the future of humankind. These affirmations are not a final credo or dogma but an expression of a living and growing faith. We invite others in all lands to join us in further developing and working for these goals.end of article,many of those that signed are Nobel prize winners in Science and Medicine. In ChristJeff

Compton Dec 13, 2005

Traditional religions are surely not the only obstacles to human progress. Other ideologies also impede human advance....except Humanism. ;-) But reason must be tempered by humility, since no group has a monopoly of wisdom or virtue....except the group of Humanists who signed this manifesto. :-o Hence extreme disproportions in wealth, income, and economic growth should be reduced on a worldwide basis.Didn't they already try this in 1917? I guess these guys are smarter.Wow, how many millions of people will have to be killed or enslaved during the engineering of this planetary utopia? Who is going to wield the power of this new society? I'm sure they will be benevolent overlords...:-? Goodness Jeff, the arrogant and vain imagination of humanity seems to be without bounds. (Edward Wilson is a recognized expert on ant colonies, and perhaps he imagines this qualifies him to engineer human civilization.) The most arrogant thing is that they seem to believe their manifesto is some new idea for mankind. Apparently they've never read the book "Animal Farm". If some pigs couldn't make it work, then we know humanity is going to make a mess of things.MC

sermonindex Dec 13, 2005

Monica Roa, a Bogota lawyer who works for Women's Link Worldwide, had sought to legalize abortion when a mother's life is in danger, when the fetus is expected to die from abnormalities or when the pregnancy is the result of rape.Hi Jeff,I confess I'm not reading this thread thoroughly, but I'd like to offer my two pen'rth (two pennyworth) on the silence which prevails within the church, whenever rape is mentioned. It's all very well talking about how evil is 'man' in their imaginations of political solutions, but, until individual Christians get real about individual sins and their impact on the individuals against whom those sins are committed, you (we?) are guilty of just as much rhetoric with regards to abortion. Abortion is not a woman problem, it's a man problem. If we argue that the nature of man and woman is intrinsically unchanged since the Fall, then why is there no outcry against those how impregnate women who do not wish to carry a baby to full term? What are these men thinking of? (That's rhetorical, btw.) Not babies..... obviously. And the church is culpable for not leading the way in the fight - is that the right word? - against fornication and sexual violence against minors, and adultery amongst its members and in the world.

rookie Dec 13, 2005

Sister Dorcas wrote: And the church is culpable for not leading the way in the fight - is that the right word? - against fornication and sexual violence against minors, and adultery amongst its members and in the world.We were discussing last night at a men's study, about the works of the Holy Spirit in the Church.One shared of knowing a man who has often displayed the gift of prophesy. In this particular instance, he was bothered that he could not worship God, he could not come close to Him in Sunday worship. Then the Holy Spirit brought to his mind the reason. There was a man two rows up from him that was commiting adultery. This event reflects the story of Aachan and the sin that hindered the work God was doing in the book of Joshua just after Jerricho had fallen. There is so much that we are missing in today's Church. Much of it is as you have brought to bear in your post Sister. May we endeavor to have the gifts of prophesy. May the Holy Spirit work out the sin that hinders the Church. May the Holy Spirit bring to light those who desire darkness.In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 13, 2005

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Gay cowboy love story "Brokeback Mountain" won three of the top four awards from the New York Film Critics Circle Monday, building momentum as the critics' favorite for Hollywood's top honors, the Oscars.(end of headline)Search your hearts, what does this say of the generation that we live in? We speak of the ideals of our forefathers just like the Pharisees did during Jesus's ministry here on earth. "Our father is Abraham." But we are a new generation surrounded by the works of Satan. Do we willingly seek to understand the evil around us? Do we willingly seek to identify how Satan promotes his agenda? How prevasive is the philosophy of humanism ingrained in our beliefs?In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 14, 2005

Iran leader: Holocaust a 'myth'TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has described the Holocaust as "a myth" and suggested that Israel be moved to Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska.The United States, Israel and the European Commission -- along with individual European countries -- have condemned the remark.Ahmadinejad sparked widespread international condemnation in October when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map." Last week, he also expressed doubt about the killing by the Nazis of six million Jews during World War II, but Wednesday was the first occasion when he said in public that the Holocaust was a myth."They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said in a speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report on Wednesday from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting."The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets," he said. "(It) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet.""If you have burned the Jews, why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel," Ahmadinejad said."Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"Mark Regev, spokesman for Israel's Foreign Ministry, said: "The combination of a regime with a radical agenda, together with a distorted sense of reality that is clearly indicated by the statements we heard today, put together with nuclear weapons -- I think that's a dangerous combination that no one in the international community can accept.""What the Iranian president has shown us today is that he is clearly outside the international consensus, he is clearly outside international norms and international legitimacy, and in so doing he has shown the Iranian government for what it is -- a rogue regime opposed to peace and stability and a threat to all its neighboring countries," Regev said.In addition, Ahmadinejad spoke in Zahedan about Iran's nuclear program, maintaining it will insist on its right to develop nuclear energy for peaceful purposes."Those who themselves produce nuclear arms should not raise hue and cry against those who only want to gain access to nuclear technology for peaceful purposes," he said, according to a report from the Islamic Republic News Agency."Countries which have arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons which can be used against other countries at their whim and those who supplied the Baathist regime with (chemical) weapons that killed thousands of innocent Iranians ... now go to all lengths to block Iran from gaining access to peaceful nuclear technology," he said."We are sure they have criminal intentions, and there was never any doubt that they were piling weapons of mass destruction to be used against less powerful nations," Ahmadinejad said, according to the IRNA report.(end of article)Will the promise of peace be accomplished by democracy that is spread by the sword? What does Scripture say about the illusions of peace in the last days?In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 15, 2005

(thought continued from the book page 32)(A) The New Economy.In an agricultural economy, the workplace was the home where the husband and wife labored together and lived together. In the industrial economy, the man left the home to work in a factory, while the wife stayed home to look after the children. The agricultural economy gave us the extended family; the industrial economy, the nuclear family. But in the postindustrial economy, husband and wife both work at the office, and no one stays home with the children. Indeed, there may be no children. As political science professor James Kurth of Swarthmore writes:"The greatest movement of the second half of the nineteenth century was the movement of men from farm to the factory.... The greatest movement of the second half of the twentieth century has been the movement of women from the home to the office...[This] movement separates the parent from the children, as well as enabling the wife to separate herself from her husband. By splitting the nuclear family, it is helping to bring about the replacement of the nuclear family with the non-family."As men's jobs in manufacturing, mining, farming, and fishing are no longer needed, or are shipped overseas, the skills and talents of women are now more desirable. There are also opportunities in government, education, and the professions open to women today that their mothers and grandmothers never had. Businesses, large and small, offer packages of pay and benefits to lure talented women out of the home and keep them out of the maternity ward, where they are "no good to the company." It is working. In the scores of millions, American women have left the home for the office to work beside and compete with men. By the tens of millions, women college graduates have put off marriage, many forever. "You can have it all!" the modern woman is told--baby and a career. With nannies, courtesy of open borders, with equal-pay-for-equal work, maternity leave, and daycare, courtesy of the government and the company, the lure is not a lie. What you can't have is a brood of kids back home while keeping pace with the competition at the office.Forced to choose, women are choosing career, or career and the joy of motherhood, once. The Global Economy works hand in hand with the New Economy, transfering manufacturing jobs from high wage Western nations to the low-wage, newly industrialized nations of Asia and Latin America. With Working America's yellow brick road to the middle class down to one lane, wives must work to keep up with the Jones next door. So children are put off, sometimes for good. In 1950, 88 percent of women with children under six stayed home, where they often had more kids. Today, 64 percent of American women with children under six are in the labor force."How you gonna keep' em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?" was said of the World War I soldiers who went off to Europe. Well, how you gonna get' em back in the 'burbs, after they've seen D.C. one might ask of the talented women lawyers, journalists, PR specialists, and political aides who have enjoyed the great game in an exciting city.Writing in the Spectator, Eleanor Mills is an authentic voice of her generation; "The fact is that girls like me--ie. healthy, hearty, middle-class women in their 20s--are just not breeding." Why not? Because, she writes, "my generation's twin preoccupations are, unfortunately, looks and money." She quotes one of her many childless contemporaries;"If I had a kid," said Jane, and advertising executive, thoughtfully, "I wouldn't be able to do half the things I take for granted. Every Saturday at 10:30 am when we are still in bed, my husband and I look at each other and just say, "Thank God we weren't up at 5 a.m. caring for a brat." We have such a great time just the two of us; who know if it would work if we introduced another person into the equation?""The rich are different from us," said F. Scott Fitzgerald. To which Hemingway replied, "Yes, they have more money." But the rich also have fewer children. Using Occam's razor--the somplest explanation is usually the right one--the best explaination for the sinking birthrate in the West may be the simplest. As America's poor enter the middle class, and the middle class becomes affluent, and the affluent become rich, each adopts the style of the class they have lately entered. All begin to downsize their families; all begin to have fewer children. A corollary follows; The richer a nation becomes, the fewer its children, and the sooner it begins to die. Societies organized to ensure the maximum pleasure, freedom, and happiness for all their members are, at the same time, advancing the date of their own funerals. Fate may compensate the Chinese, Islamic, and Latin peoples for their hardships and poverty in this century with the domination of the earth in the next. Indeed, do we not have it on high authority that "Blessed are the meek...they shall inherit the earth?"end of thoughtThe love of money is the root of all kinds of evil isn't it?In ChristJeff

IRONMAN Dec 15, 2005

"Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"the Palestinians have no right to that land as they are descended from the people God wanted israel to wipe out completely, genocide before they took the land. the Jews didn't obey and here we are in this mess. That land belongs to God's people and it will in nowise be taken away. Those nations will rise again against israel but the Lord will destroy them.

rookie Dec 17, 2005

Page 35(B) End of the "Family Wage."In the 1830s, as America's industrial revolution was about to begin, the Philadelphia Trade Union warned its members about the hidden agenda of what it called "cormorant capital":"Oppose [employment of our women folks] with all your minds and with all your strength for it will prove our ruin. We must strive to obtain sufficient remuneration for our labor to keep the wives and daughters and sisters of our people at home... That cormorant capital will have every man, woman, and child to toil: but let us exert our families to oppose its design."In 1848, the year of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto, the labor publication Ten Hour Advocate editorialized: "We hope the day is not distant when the husband will be able to provide for his wife and family, without sending [the wife] to endure the drudgery of a cotton mill.?This vison of American free labor was at war with the view being espoused by Marx and his patron and collaborator, Friedrich Engels, who wrote in The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State; "The first condition for the liberation of the wife is to bring the whole female sex into public industry and ...this in turn demands the abolition of the monogamous family as the economic unit of societ." Is it not a remarkable coincidence how global capitalism's view of women--as units of production, liberated from husbands, home, and family--conforms so precisely to the view of the fathers of global communism?As Allan Carlson, who also publishes The Family in America, writes, there was a consensus in America, not so long ago, that employers should pay fathers a "family wage" sufficient to support their wives and children in dignity without their having to leave the home to go to work. That was considered one of the defining characteristics of a good society. ...This idea was widely accepted. Carlson notes that the "wage gap" between men and women actually widened after World War II. In 1939, women earned 59.3 percent of men's pay; by 1966, that had fallen to 53.6 percent. In the 1940s and 1950s, the culture, with a good conscience, separated men and women in the workplace. In newspapers, the "Men Wanted" ads were run separate from the "Women Wanted" ads. Only rarely could working women be found outside such occupations as clerk-typist, secretary, nurse, school teacher, or salegirl. Carlson writes:"To an observer from the Year 2000, the most amazing thing about this system was that it was both understood by the average people and popularly supported. In opinion polls, large majorities of Americans (85 percent or more), women and men, agreed that fathers deserved as income that would support their wives and children at home and that the labor of mothers was secondary or supplemental. This was seen as simple justice."This system fell apart in the 1960s, when feminists managed to add "sex" to the discriminations forbidden by the sweeping Civil Rights Act of 1964, which had been written to protect the rights of African Americans. This turned the new Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) into a siege gun against the family wage. "Men Wanted" ads were declared discriminatory and outlawed. Gender equality replaced "moral contract." The rights of individuals took precedence over the requirements of family. Women's pay soared, and as women began moving into occupations that had been largely restrictived to men--medicine, law, the media, the academy, the upper bureaucracy, and business--families began to crumble. Between 1973 and 1996, writes Dr. Carlson, "the [real] median income of men, aged 15 and above, working full-time, fell 24 percent, from $37,200 to $30,000," Marching under feminist banners--equal pay for equal work, and equal pay for comparable work--women moved into direct competition with men. Millions succeeded, shouldering men aside with superior performance. Their pay rose steadily, and the absolute and relative pay of married men began to yield to wives' insistence that they " go back to work." Young men found they no longer earned enough in their late teens or early twenties to start a family, even if that had been their hope and dream. Stripped of the duties of fatherhood and family, many of these young men wound up in trouble--and even in prison.America's young women found they could achieve independance on their own. They need not get married, certainly not yet. More and more did not marry. In 1970, only 36 percent of women aged twenty to twenty-four were unmarried. By 1995, 68 percent were in the "never married" category. Among women twenty-five to twenty-nine, the "never marrieds" had soared from 10 percent to 35 percent.The young family with a batch of kids is now an endangered species. Only the young rich can afford that "lifestyle," and they are uninterested. With the Democratic party so beholden to feminism that it cannot even oppose partial birth abortions, and the GOP in thrall to libertarian ideology and controlled by corporate interests, the call of the gods of the marketplace for more women workers prevails over the command of the God of Genesis: "Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth." Many conservatives have succumbed to the heresy of Economism, a mirror-Marxism that holds that man is an economic animal, that free trade and free markets are the path to peace, prosperity, and happiness, that if we can only get the marginal tax rates right and the capital gains tax abolished, Paradise--Dow 36,000!--is at hand. But when the income tax rate for the wealthiest was above 90 percent in the 1950s, America, by every moral and social indicator, was a better country. The reformed radical and Christian convert Orestes Brownson saw this new idolatry of "Mammon worship" rising in the America of the nineteenth century: "Mammonism has become the religion of Saxodom, and God is not in all our thoughts. We have lost our faith in the noble, the beautiful and the just." A century later, another convert from a failed materialistic faith would remind us again. Wrote Whittaker Chambers, "Economics is not the central problem of our age, faith is."The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 19, 2005

page 38(C) The Population Bomb Hysteria.Then there was the antipeople movement of the 1960s and 1970s, the elite's backlash against the baby boom. Paul Ehrlich, a Stanford University biologist, was its guru, and his bestseller, The Population Bomb, did for population control what Rachel Carson's Silent Spring had done for environmentalism. Ehrlich was a twentieth-century reincarnation of Thomas Robert Malthus, the British demographer whose prediction of world starvation proved so spectacularly wrong in the nineteenth century. Malthus had written: "It may be safely asserted....that population, when unchecked, increases in geometrical progression of such a nature as to double itself every twenty-five years." As the world's food production could not double every twenty-five years, said the gloomy parson, mass starvation was dead ahead. Malthus proved as wrong about food production as Ehrlich did about the world's resources, which he assured us were running out. Today, the six billion on earth live in far greater freedom and prosperity than did the three billion in 1960, the two billion in 1927, or the one billion in 1830. Political incompetence and criminality, foolish ideas and insane ideologies, are the cause of starvation and misery, not people.Published by the Sierra Club, Ehrlich's book became required reading in many high schools. By 1977, former secretary of defense and World Bank president Robert McNamara was playing Henny Penny to Ehrlich's Chicken Little, warning that "continued population growth would cause "poverty, hunger, stress, crowding, and frustration," that would threaten social, economic and military stability." In 1978, a congressional select committee on population announced that the "major biological systems that humanity depends upon....are being strained by rapid population growth...[and] in some cases, they are.... losing productive capacity." As Jacqueline Kasun, author of The War Against Population, writes, about this time the Smithsonian Institution created a "traveling exhibit for schoolchildren called "Population: The Problem Is Us, " [that] featured a picture of a dead rat on a dinner plate as an example of "future food sources."As a result of this antipopulation propaganda from America's elite institutions of politics and ideas, the public funding for population control here and abroad exploded. But though the message was taken to heart by the First World wealthy and middle class, it was largely ignored by the Third World poor, at whom it had been targeted. We can see the results today: a birth dearth among the affluent nations, and baby boom across the Third World.end of thoughtThe next few posts will be taken from a NSA policy paper that was requested by Henry Kissinger in 1974. This paper outlines the policy the United States would create and establish in this country and the rest of the world. It is an eye opener as to how foolish the kings and princes are in their earthly wisdom.In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 20, 2005

This is the policy paper which established the United States program for population control in the world and the U.S. This first post begins with the first page of this directive. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASHINGTON, D.C. 20506 April 24, 1974National Security Study Memorandum 200--------------------------------------TO: The Secretary of Defense The Secretary of Agriculture The Director of Central Intelligence The Deputy Secretary of State Administrator, Agency for International DevelopmentSUBJECT: Implications of Worldwide Population Growth for U.S. Security and Overseas InterestsThe President has directed a study of the impact of world population growth on U.S. security and overseas interests. The study should look forward at least until the year 2000, and use several alternative reasonable projections of population growth.In terms of each projection, the study should assess: - the corresponding pace of development, especially in poorer countries; - the demand for US exports, especially of food, and the trade problems the US may face arising from competition for re- sources; and - the likelihood that population growth or imbalances will produce disruptive foreign policies and international instability.The study should focus on the international political and economic implications of population growth rather than its ecological, socio-logical or other aspects.The study would then offer possible courses of action for the United States in dealing with population matters abroad, particularly in developing countries, with special attention to these questions: - What, if any, new initiatives by the United States are needed to focus international attention on the population problem? - Can technological innovations or development reduce growth or ameliorate its effects? - Could the United States improve its assistance in the population field and if so, in what form and through which agencies -- bilateral, multilateral, private?The study should take into account the President's concern that population policy is a human concern intimately related to the dignity of the individual and the objective of the United States is to work closely with others, rather than seek to impose our views on others.The President has directed that the study be accomplished by the NSC Under Secretaries Committee. The Chairman, Under Secretaries Committee, is requested to forward the study together with the Committee's action recommendations no later than May 29, 1974 for consideration by the President. HENRY A. KISSINGERcc: Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff(end of first page)In the following post you will begin to see how we have been taught to think. What is today, is the result of what began back in 1973. In ChristJeff

Compton Dec 20, 2005

I'm finding this material fascinating. It's the inevitable result of making "science" the religion of the age...history, economics, and government have all become seen as a competition for resources and survival. Philosophical ideas such as Marxism, evolution, socialism, euthanasia, birth control,...are all driven by a zealous materialistic interpretation of reality. One last thought about Buchanan’s book. (I assume this material is from the same book.)...not to pick a nit with his concerns about the west's shrinking population, but how many children does he have? ;-) MC

rookie Dec 21, 2005

Brother Mike asked:One last thought about Buchanan’s book. (I assume this material is from the same book.)...not to pick a nit with his concerns about the west's shrinking population, but how many children does he have? I did a search and found that he has NO children. I guess he is like those he writes about. Affluence and power corrupts the things that God has called for in the lives of His creation. I myself have been greatly influenced by the same things that he has brought to this forum. I believed that it was the responsible thing to minimize the number of children so that I could financially provide for them. I remember so many people deriding those who had large families. I am 49 going on 50 and during my generation, people were judged irresponsible for having large families. So I too only have two children. Only now do I see the fruits of the lie that was promoted by those who helped to shape the thoughts of my generation. One thing that I did right so far is that once we had children, my wife became a fullllll time mother. My children are 10 and 12 years old, so she still has a way to go in her life's work.(I assume this material is from the same book.)I have quoted from two of his books, the first dealt with the impact of Neoconservatism, and the second, the death of western civilization. The current posts are not found in either book. This policy paper Nssm 2000 is an actual document that I discovered some time ago. The ideas that Buchanan brings concerning our goverment's involvment in population control finds its roots in this policy paper. In ChristJeff

Compton Dec 21, 2005

...people were judged irresponsible for having large families. This is true brother. They still are. I have a friend who is often met with incredulity and derision when people find out he has 6 children.I had a friend in Virginia that raised 13 children...it was a position he held all his life that we are supposed to grow the church primarily through reproduction rather then conversion. For him, being a Christian meant that he was the "priest" over a small flock...his family. (He was also a home school pioneer in the early years when many Christians still thought home schooling was crazy...)My wife and I have three children of our own...barely a surplus. ;-) Bless you Jeff,MC

rookie Dec 21, 2005

(continued U.S. Policy paper on population control) NSSM 200: IMPLICATIONS OF WORLDWIDE POPULATION GROWTH FOR U.S. SECURITY AND OVERSEAS INTERESTS December 10, 1974 CLASSIFIED BY Harry C. Blaney, III SUBJECT TO GENERAL DECLASSIFICATION SCHEDULE OF EXECUTIVE ORDER 11652 AUTOMATICALLY DOWN- GRADED AT TWO YEAR INTERVALS AND DECLASSIFIED ON DECEMBER 31, 1980.This document can only be declassified by the White House.---------------------------------------------------------- Declassified/Released on 7/3/89 ----------- under provisions of E.O. 12356 by F. Graboske, National Security Council EXECUTIVE SUMMARY World Demographic Trends 1. World Population growth since World War II is quantitatively and qualitatively different from any previous epoch in human history. The rapid reduction in death rates, unmatched by corresponding birth rate reductions, has brought total growth rates close to 2 percent a year, compared with about 1 percent before World War II, under 0.5 percent in 1750-1900, and far lower rates before 1750. The effect is to double the world's population in 35 years instead of 100 years. Almost 80 million are now being added each year, compared with 10 million in 1900. 2. The second new feature of population trends is the sharp differentiation between rich and poor countries. Since 1950, population in the former group has been growing at 0 to 1.5 percent per year, and in the latter at 2.0 to 3.5 percent (doubling in 20 to 35 years). Some of the highest rates of increase are in areas already densely populated and with a weak resource base. 3. Because of the momentum of population dynamics, reductions in birth rates affect total numbers only slowly. High birth rates in the recent past have resulted in a high proportion in the youngest age groups, so that there will continue to be substantial population increases over many years even if a two-child family should become the norm in the future. Policies to reduce fertility will have their main effects on total numbers only after several decades. However, if future numbers are to be kept within reasonable bounds, it is urgent that measures to reduce fertility be started and made effective in the 1970's and 1980's. Moreover, programs started now to reduce birth rates will have short run advantages for developing countries in lowered demands on food, health and educational and other services and in enlarged capacity to contribute to productive investments, thus accelerating development. 4. U.N. estimates use the 3.6 billion population of 1970 as a base (there are nearly 4 billion now) and project from about 6 billion to 8 billion people for the year 2000 with the U.S. medium estimate at 6.4 billion. The U.S. medium projections show a world population of 12 billion by 2075 which implies a five-fold increase in south and southeast Asia and in Latin American and a seven-fold increase in Africa, compared with a doubling in east Asia and a 40% increase in the presently developed countries (see Table I). Most demographers, including the U.N. and the U.S. Population Council, regard the range of 10 to 13 billion as the most likely level for world population stability, even with intensive efforts at fertility control. (These figures assume, that sufficient food could be produced and distributed to avoid limitation through famines.)(to be continued)In Christ Jeff

rookie Dec 22, 2005

(continued on from the policy paper) Therefore, if a country wants to influence its total numbers through population policy, it must act in the immediate future in order to make a substantial difference in the long run. For most of man's history, world population grew very slowly. At the rate of growth estimated for the first 18 centuries A.D., it required more than 1,000 years for world population to double in size. With the beginnings of the industrial revolution and of modern medicine and sanitation over two hundred years ago, population growth rates began to accelerate. At the current growth rate (1.9 percent) world population will double in 37 years. By about 1830, world population reached 1 billion. The second billion was added in about 100 years by 1930. The third billion in 30 years by 1960. The fourth will be reached in 1975. Between 1750-1800 less than 4 million were being added, on the average, to the earth's population each year. Between 1850-1900, it was close to 8 million. By 1950 it had grown to 40 million. By 1975 it will be about 80 million. In the developed countries of Europe, growth rates in the last century rarely exceeded 1.0-1.2 percent per year, almost never 1.5 percent. Death rates were much higher than in most LDCs today. In North America where growth rates were higher, immigration made a significant contribution. In nearly every country of Europe, growth rates are now below 1 percent, in many below 0.5 percent. The natural growth rate (births minus deaths) in the United States is less than 0.6 percent. Including immigration (the world's highest) it is less than 0.7 percent. In less developed countries growth rates average about 2.4 percent. For the People's Republic of China, with a massive, enforced birth control program, the growth rate is estimated at under 2 percent. India's is variously estimated from 2.2 percent, Brazil at 2.8 percent, Mexico at 3.4 percent, and Latin America at about 2.9 percent. African countries, with high birth as well as high death rates, average 2.6 percent; this growth rate will increase as death rates go down. The world's population is now about 3.9 billion; 1.1 billion in the developed countries (30 percent) and 2.8 billion in the less developed countries (70 percent). In 1950, only 28 percent of the world's population or 692 million, lived in urban localities. Between 1950 and 1970, urban population expanded at a rate twice as rapid as the rate of growth of total population. In 1970, urban population increased to 36 percent of world total and numbered 1.3 billion. By 2000, according to the UN's medium variant projection, 3.2 billion (about half of the total) of world inhabitants will live in cities and towns. In developed countries, the urban population varies from 45 to 85 percent; in LDCs, it varies from close to zero in some African states to nearly 100 percent in Hong Kong and Singapore. In LDCs, urban population is projected to more than triple in the remainder of this century, from 622 million in 1970 to 2,087 in 2000. Its proportion in total LDC population will thus increase from 25 percent in 1970 to 41 percent in 2000. This implies that by the end of this century LDCs will reach half the level of urbanization projected for DCs (82 percent) (See Table I). The enormous built-in momentum of population growth in the less developed countries (and to a degree in the developed countries) is, if possible, even more important and ominous than current population size and rates of growth. Unlike a conventional explosion, population growth provides a continuing chain reaction. This momentum springs from (1) high fertility levels of LDC populations and (2) the very high percentage of maturing young people in populations. The typical developed country, Sweden for example, may have 25% of the population under 15 years of age. The typical developing country has 41% to 45% or its population under 15. This means that a tremendous number of future parents, compared to existing parents, are already born. Even if they have fewer children per family than their parents, the increase in population will be very great.(to be continued)In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 23, 2005

(Policy paper continued)This is an example of how the people in power look at children. Moderation of population growth offers benefits in terms of resources saved for investment and/or higher per capita consumption. If resource requirements to support fewer children are reduced and the funds now allocated for construction of schools, houses, hospitals and other essential facilities are invested in productive activities, the impact on the growth of GNP and per capita income may be significant. In addition, economic and social progress resulting from population control will further contribute to the decline in fertility rates. The relationship is reciprocal, and can take the form of either a vicious or a virtuous circle.... In most, if not all, developing countries high fertility rates impose substantial economic costs and restrain economic growth. The main adverse macroeconomic effects may be analyzed in three general categories: (1) the saving effect, (2) "child quality" versus "child quantity", and (3) "capital deepening" versus "capital widening." These three categories are not mutually exclusive, but they highlight different familial and social perspectives. In addition, there are often longer-run adverse effects on agricultural output and the balance of payments. (1) The saving effect. A high fertility economy has perforce a larger "burden of dependency" than a low fertility economy, because a larger proportion of the population consists of children too young to work. There are more non-working people to feed, house and rear, and there is a smaller surplus above minimum consumption available for savings and investment. It follows that a lower fertility rate can free resources from consumption; if saved and invested, these resources could contribute to economic growth. (There is much controversy on this; empirical studies of the savings effect have produced varying results.) (2) Child quality versus quantity. Parents make investment decisions, in a sense, about their children. Healthier and better-educated children tend to be economically more productive, both as children and later as adults. In addition to the more-or-less conscious trade-offs parents can make about more education and better health per child, there are certain biologic adverse effects suffered by high birth order children such as higher mortality and limited brain growth due to higher incidence of malnutrition. It must be emphasized, however, that discussion of trade-offs between child quality and child quantity will probably remain academic with regard to countries where child mortality remains high. When parents cannot expect most children to survive to old age, they probably will continue to "over-compensate", using high fertility as a form of hedge to insure that they will have some living offspring able to support the parents in the distant future. (3) Capital deepening versus widening. From the family's viewpoint high fertility is likely to reduce welfare per child; for the economy one may view high fertility as too rapid a growth in labor force relative to capital stock. Society's capital stock includes facilities such as schools and other educational inputs in addition to capital investments that raise workers' outputs in agriculture and manufacturing. For any given rate of capital accumulation, a lower population growth rate can help increase the amount of capital and education per worker, helping thereby to increase output and income per capita. The problem of migration to cities and the derived demand for urban infrastructure can also be analyzed as problems of capital widening, which draw resources away from growth-generating investments.These thoughts are based on man's economy. How does this differ from God's economy? In ChristJeff

rookie Dec 27, 2005

(Nssm200 policy paper continued) Now I will try to post the "means by which the U.S. planned to reduce populations in Low Developed Countries as well as here in the States. Within the overall array of U.S. foreign assistance programs, preferential treatment in allocation of funds and manpower should be given to cost-effective programs to reduce population growth; including both family planning activities and supportive activities in other sectors. While some have argued for use of explicit "leverage" to "force" better population programs on LDC governments, there are several practical constraints on our efforts to achieve program improvements. Attempts to use "leverage" for far less sensitive issues have generally caused political frictions and often backfired. Successful family planning requires strong local dedication and commitment that cannot over the long run be enforced from the outside. There is also the danger that some LDC leaders will see developed country pressures for family planning as a form of economic or racial imperialism; this could well create a serious backlash. Short of "leverage", there are many opportunities, bilaterally and multilaterally, for U.S. representations to discuss and urge the need for stronger family planning programs. There is also some established precedent for taking account of family planning performance in appraisal of assistance requirements by AID and consultative groups. Since population growth is a major determinant of increases in food demand, allocation of scarce PL 480 resources should take account of what steps a country is taking in population control as well as food production. In these sensitive relationships, however, it is important in style as well as substance to avoid the appearance of coercion. D. Provision and Development of Family Planning Services, Information and Technology Past experience suggests that easily available family planning services are a vital and effective element in reducing fertility rates in the LDCs. Two main advances are required for providing safe and effective fertility control techniques in the developing countries: 1. Expansion and further development of efficient low-cost systems to assure the full availability of existing family planning services, materials and information to the 85% of LDC populations not now effectively reached. In developing countries willing to create special delivery systems for family planning services this may be the most effective method. In others the most efficient and acceptable method is to combine family planning with health or nutrition in multi-purpose delivery systems. 2. Improving the effectiveness of present means of fertility control, and developing new technologies which are simple, low cost, effective, safe, long-lasting and acceptable to potential users. This involves both basic developmental research and operations research to judge the utility of new or modified approaches under LDC conditions. Both of these goals should be given very high priority with necessary additional funding consistent with current or adjusted divisions of labor among other donors and organizations involved in these areas of population assistance. Do you see that the main components listed here are "family planning programs" and medical research for "fertility control?"In ChristJeff

sermonindex Dec 28, 2005

Jeff-I can see your interest in the shortcomings of the world and the paths of destruction it is going down on. Yet, please remember the words of Paul in the Epistle to the Philippians:Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. (Phil.4:8)In Christ,SlavP.S. Do not let the enemy tempt you to despair.

CyberCarbon Dec 28, 2005

Amen, I need to remember that verse myself.

rookie Dec 28, 2005

Brother SlavThis was the initial post of this thread.""See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil." Eph 5:16-17Last week I was teaching in the last part of Genesis 17. A question came up about the 12 princes of Ishmael. I had not prepared for this topic, for I was focused on God's promise. What I learned was this. The Scriptures teach about God and His righteousness. The Scriptures also teach about the wickedness of this world. I was guilty of only teaching half the Scriptures last week. I believe we Christians pass over much of the Bible which speaks of the different ways men are wicked. We preach the Cross, but yet we don't want to identify what needs to go on the Cross. I believe there is much to learn about how Satan holds sway over this world. Our lives are filled with the philosophies and hopes of this world. And unless we are like the mighty men of David who knew that their times were wicked how can we battle against the ruler of this world."" I believe the meat of the word of God centers on our discerning between evil and good. We are called to identify and warn our brothers and sisters of the evil that that may engulf them. Much of the Bible speaks of this situation, does it not?Paul warns the Corinthians:2Cor. 6:11 O Corinthians! We have spoken openly to you, our heart is wide open. 12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. 13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open. 2Cor. 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. A believer's life is impacted by the world. The more of the world the less of Christ. In ChristJeff

sermonindex Dec 28, 2005

This thread will be continued in "Days ARE Evil 2" thread. This thread is being locked.

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