A Rebuke to the Church

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This is a picture of a girl in South Carolina, standing on a street corner with a sign. If she is going to such an extreme extent to get a message out to the general public, it must be a very important message right? Wrong. She is doing this because she is getting paid to promote a halloween store.

This is my concern: as I travel I see these teenagers on street corners everywhere promoting halloween stores. These teenagers are everywhere and I know I'm not the only one that has seen them. Maybe you have seen them yourself. Usually these teenagers look like they could be popular in their schools. Yet they are willing to stand on the street corners of major intersections, with signs, to do what? To promote a demonic halloween store and get paid for it!

Yet, how many Youth Pastors can get their youth group to do this for Jesus? How many Youth Pastors would even dare to ask their teenagers to do this? Sure, youth groups may do this for car washes to raise money. But how many today are willing to do this for the gospel? How many are willing to do this to reach the lost, to reach our community with God's message? How many are willing to stand on a street corner with a "Turn to Jesus" sign?

Obviously the devil knows how effective it is to hold a sign on a busy street corner. The devil has the largest youth group in America. And he can get them to do all sorts of stuff for money, and very wicked stuff for pleasure. How much more should we, the Church of God, be so in love with Jesus Christ that we will be willing to go to the very ends of the earth for our Lord and Savior, to be willing to lay down our reputations and everything to help God to save the lost and dying world that He loves?

Let's take this as a rebuke from the devil. If the devils children can stand on street corners for him, can not God's children stand on street corners for Him???? You will answer that question by your life.

There's a type of believer who presumptuously witnesses for Jesus without first preparing himself in scripture, prayer, sackcloth and ashes. Such a one is bound to be religiously arrogant and equally unattractive to the heathen and the elect.

There's another type of believer who is painfully aware of his ill-preparedness, sinfulness, and pride. This one recognizes his inability to be an effective witness until he has overcome his demons. He will search the scriptures, repent, wrestle with demons, pray, and bemoan his fallen state until he's endowed with power from on high. It may take years, but he'll know when he's ready to effectively preach the Gospel.

You speak of kids in youth groups as though they ought to be witnessing. I say that no man, woman, boy or girl ought to so much as attempt to witness until they've repented, slain their demons, and show outward evidences of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Who's the more effective witness: the unregenerate girl with the Halloween poster or an unregenerate Churchian youth forced to hand out Jesus tracts?

The girl with the poster. She, at least, is familiar with the goods she's promoting.

All the posters, tracts, gospel music, and seminars in the world cannot compare with the witness of one genuine believer in Jesus Christ.

Belonging to a youth group is no guarantee of regeneration. If the unregenerate "Churchian" youth don't want to witness, don't make them. It won't be genuine and thus, will do more harm than good.

A genuinely regenerated person will witness about His Lord and Saviour whenever He can to anyone who will listen. You won't need to force, pay, or threaten him.

I agree with the responses. It's easy to judge and condemn the church today, and many times it is warrented. But many times I think we get so caught up in the pride that comes along with thinking we're always right... and everyone else in the church is always wrong... that we start to lose our grip on reality.

Krispy

I think you guys missed my point.

Sinners are very committed to sin. But many of us professing Christians are not even closely committed to Christ as they are to sin. In fact, most professing Christians are just as committed to sin as those who don't even call themselves Christians.

But my whole point was, if teenagers can get out there on the streets with signs just to get a pay check, can we not get out there on the streets with signs to glorify God and win souls?

Whether we want to admit it or not, there is a lack of commitment in the Church of actually living for God, living for eternity, and living for souls.

Many Christians are even appauled at the very thought of standing on a street corner with a "turn to Jesus" sign! Many are more concerned about their image and their reputation then about promoting the truth!

Am I way off base with this or is there some truth in this even if we don't like to hear it?? Do you guys really think that the Church is doing all it can, and al it ought to do, for the Great Commission???

Let's wake up folks! The world is going to hell and many of us are not doing all that we can do to help God save it. Are we really "co-laborers" with God as we ought to be??

Thank you for this refreshing word of truth, brother Corey! Grace be with you.

Brother Jesse, you don't have to witness to every creature in every situation. You don't have to. You won't be damned if you don't. You won't make a difference in the kingdom if you do. God's Kingdom is not in word, but in power. You don't become a Christian or maintain your status by producing certain works such as sharing your faith with unbelievers, giving to the poor, rebuking brothers in sin, etc. I think Corey said it well.

So get close to the Lord. Listen to Him. Do as He says. This is the hardest thing, for which you need much grace. It may mean that you will have to keep your mouth shut when you have the most to say. But He will get the glory! Honestly, Jesse, do you want to get a lot done for the Lord, even as much as you possibly can, to the praise of your diligence so you can have peace before His throne, or do you want to please Him by doing nothing but His concrete and definite will? I said "do [i]you[/i]" ... The truth is that what you or I want to do shouldn't matter.

In Him,
Slavyan

The vast majority of the kids in our youthgroups are not saved. They are children of the devil and committed servants of their babylonian religion. They have seen their parents christianity at work, sitting at home in nice houses watching ungodly programming on television night after night, taking expensive vacations, you know living the good life, and they have no desire to deviate from that path.

At first I agreed with you Jesse, but reading all of the comments I have to agree it would only bring more reproach to the kingdom by sending these kids out to do anything other then the annual fund raising car wash.

Better to be hidden away in the shame of their lukewarmness and compromise then bringing greater reproach to Jesus among the heathen.

In Christ -Jim

The vast majority of the kids in our youthgroups are not saved.

I dont know if I agree with this... mainly because I dont know if this is true or not. And neither do you. Altho your statement is not a complete generalization, it [b]is[/b] an over generalization because there are no facts to back up such a claim as this.

They are children of the devil and committed servants of their babylonian religion.

This is true of anyone who is not saved. However, in this context, this comes across as more judgementalism and condemnation... which, sadly, seems to be about all you can add to this forum.

They have seen their parents christianity at work, sitting at home in nice houses watching ungodly programming on television night after night

Again, while this is true for a lot of teens... it certainly isnt true of all teens who call themselves Christians.

taking expensive vacations

Not sure what this has to do with anything. Sounds to me like you are jealous that God has been blessing some families to take nice vacations. What this has to do with what your speaking about, I dont know. Just because someone takes an expensive vacation once in awhile doesnt mean they cant be a true Christian... so what business is it of yours?

and they have no desire to deviate from that path.

Again... a gross over generalization.

At first I agreed with you Jesse, but reading all of the comments I have to agree it would only bring more reproach to the kingdom by sending these kids out to do anything other then the annual fund raising car wash.

Yea, I can agree with this to a point. I am completely against sending all kids out to witness. I agree with the poster who said that before anyone does anything like witnessing, they need to be on their knees and weeping for the lost... and searching their own soul to see if there be any unrighteousness in them. [b]But again[/b]... you simply cant over generalize and say this is not the "vast majority" of Christian teens because you have no idea if such a statement if true or not. Only God does.

Better to be hidden away in the shame of their lukewarmness and compromise then bringing greater reproach to Jesus among the heathen.

Again... I could agree with this statement if it were not for your over generalization, coupled with your judgemental and condemning attitude.

Jim, I love you man, but your words come across as haughty and condemning. In your attempt to impress us all, you in fact offend quite a number. And I expect that you will wear that offence as a badge of courage, but you shouldnt, brother. It's not the same offence as the cross is.

Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall."

Proverbs 21:24 "Proud and haughty scorner is his name, who dealeth in proud wrath."

Isaiah 10:33 "Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled."

Since you see all these problems with the church, and with youth groups in particular... let me ask... what are you doing to make a difference? Do you work with youth? Are you on your knees weeping and sobbing in prayer for them? It's easy to hide behind a keyboard and make strong condemning over generalizations about them... it's a lot harder to roll up your sleeves and actually make a difference.

Your words lack grace, mercy and love. I'm all for strong words, but without grace, mercy and love it is nothing more than "holier-than-thou" judgementalism. That does more to harm the cause of Christ than 100 youth groups at a fund raising car wash.

Now that I have that off my chest... I am leaving for vacation. See y'all in a week or so.

Krispy

But my whole point was, if teenagers can get out there on the streets with signs just to get a pay check, can we not get out there on the streets with signs to glorify God and win souls?

Jesus didn't win souls by the world's means. Like the woman at the well, He won them one at a time, doing it God's way, in God's time.

The regenrate believer is already witnessing... a regenerate, born again of the Spirit, cannot help but witness about Jesus... But, being in the spirit, he will do God's work, God's way, in God's time, speaking to those God puts in his way or, conversely, sending him where he's in their way.

Just because one's not handing out tracts, armbands, waving signs like that kid with the sign, or wearing Jesus t-shirts, does not mean that one's not doing the Lord's work.

Has it ever occured to you that the reason The Gospel (at least, the spirit-filled Gospel) is fading in the West, is because of all the worldly methods used to "push it"?

Maybe the saints don't want a Christianity repackaged like the world's propoganda. No Christian comics. No Christian tracts. No Christian T-shirts. No fancy webpages with flash presentations...

God. Sanctuary. Peace. Spirit-filled prayer. Understand?

I dont know if I agree with this... mainly because I dont know if this is true or not. And neither do you. Altho your statement is not a complete generalization, it is an over generalization because there are no facts to back up such a claim as this.

There are plenty of facts... These are statistics from respected teachers.

75% of Christian youth in America polled said that the ressurrection of Jesus Christ is not important to them - Paul Washer

88% of children raised in evangelical homes will leave the church at the age of 18 never to return again - Ray Comfort

If you disagree with what people like Ray Comfort, Paul Washer, David Wilkerson, and many others are crying out... that the so called church is not, then thats to your own detrimate.

This is true of anyone who is not saved. However, in this context, this comes across as more judgementalism and condemnation... which, sadly, seems to be about all you can add to this forum..

Oh a personal attack... your superiority in love and grace is now evident :(

Not sure what this has to do with anything. Sounds to me like you are jealous that God has been blessing some families to take nice vacations.

we lack nothing in the means of income to take fancy vacations against the clear call of Christ to forsake our lives in this present age if we choose to. I think the Bible may say something about people being lovers of pleasure more then lovers of God in the last days though... and a vacation on its own is not worthy to mention, I was describing the many so called christians who are at ease in Zion...

Again, while this is true for a lot of teens... it certainly isnt true of all teens who call themselves Christians.

Jeremiah 7:30 " 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it.

Jeremiah over generalized a lot too... not all people in Judah had set up idols

Again... I could agree with this statement if it were not for your over generalization, coupled with your judgemental and condemning attitude.

Krispy - I have never attacked you, or any person besides a false teacher or two on this forum. I speak against the establishment and then you attack and judge me... calling me judgmental. This is hypocrisy to the highest degree. A quick review of the past months on this forum will continually show you personally attacking me several times including name calling and false accusations. May the grace of God sanctify your heart.

Jim, I love you man, but your words come across as haughty and condemning. In your attempt to impress us all, you in fact offend quite a number. And I expect that you will wear that offence as a badge of courage

Krispy - this is slander. You have continually made vicious personal attacks against me for speaking truth. Please stop addressing me personally on this forum, even in the guise of 'love'. You use shameful tacticts that can clearly be traced back over the last few months.

perhaps you could spend more time examing why what I say (about our precious babylon) offends you rather then slandering, judging and falsely accusing me on a personal level.

In Christ - Jim

Miccah said

No we don't know if kids are saved or not, but what we can tell is if thier fruit is good...

...How can someone NOT agree with Laz and Corey's statements? Look at the devil and his workers. They work day and night to win converts. What are we doing? Most of us pray, which is the most important thing we can do, but when it comes to really taking action, we hide behind the premise of "Preach the gospel daily, use words when nessessary"...

...we should be screaming to those that are damned.

You start with "fruit" and end with "screaming". But what sayeth the Gospel?

"But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and [i]bring forth fruit with patience.[/i]" (LUKE 8:15)

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..." (GAL 5:22-23)

"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And [i]the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace[/i] of them that make peace." (JAM 3:17-18)

Are we called by Jesus to convert the masses by terror (ie, screaming at them)? Or are we an elect minority, called by the Lord to be "a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (TIT 2:14)?

I think we should just all examine ourselves, take a look at our own lives, and ask ourselves, "Do I really love God? Do I really love people? And do I really believe that there is a hell?"

If we truly love God, we will obey God. And if we truly love people, we will tirelessly reach out to people. And if we truly love people, and truly believe in hell, would we be living the way that we are currently living??

BenK said

I've watched videos of street preachers and was initially warmed by their zeal, but, [i]I've seen a couple videos of you Jesse, screaming at unbelievers and calling them "Pharisees" engaging in name calling such as calling homosexuals "sissys" and the like.[/i] I've be thinking, is this something I should be doing?(street preaching)

Jesse, I've not seen your videos, but if this is true - if you're attacking sinners' character and calling them names - you need to re-examine what "Jesus" you serve... one's a lamb, and the other's a dragon wearing lambskins...

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (MATT 7:22-23)

I've watched videos of street preachers and was initially warmed by their zeal, but, I've seen a couple videos of you Jesse, screaming at unbelievers and calling them "Pharisees" engaging in name calling such as calling homosexuals "sissys" and the like. I've be thinking, is this something I should be doing?(street preaching)
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Jesse, I've not seen your videos, but if this is true - if you're attacking sinners' character and calling them names - you need to re-examine what "Jesus" you serve... one's a lamb, and the other's a dragon wearing lambskins...

I have almost 200 videos on YouTube that anyone can watch at anytime. You can make up your own mind. You can search for "Open Air Outreach Jesse Morrell" and they will come up. Some of the videos are a year old and I have improved since then.

The quote says that there were only "a couple" videos which were not liked. I'm not sure which "couple" that is refering to. There are almost 200 of them. But I am glad that there were only a "couple" which were not liked.

However, you will not find a single video where I "scream at sinners". I may raise my voice when large crowds gather. I may even "dispute" with sinners as Paul did. But I don't scream at sinners. Ever.

As far as calling people "Pharisees" that is only towards professing Christians, who also profess to living hypocritical lives.

And as far as the term "sissy". I only use that word to explain what "effeminate" means in 1Corithians 6:9-10. I don't go around and tell people "your a sissy". But when I read 1Corinthians 6:9-10 in the KJV, I explain that "effeminate" means a sissy man.

Anyways, my videos are on YouTube for all to watch and judge.

Also keep in mind that it is far easier to find the flaws and faults of those who are trying to do it, then to actually do it themselves. If anyone has a better way, please feel free to show me by your example.

murdog wrote:
Saints,

I have to agree with Jesse and Jim on this one. I was involved with leading a youth group at a pentecostal church I was attending. The pastor's wife was usually the one who led the group, I would fill in her absence. The kids ate snacks, watched a Rob Bell video and then played a secular board game at the end of group.

Do you think it's a sin to play 'secular boardgames' then?

My point is alot of kids in these youth groups would be to ashamed to hold up a sign for Jesus. I am not saying a sign is the preferred method of evangelism, but the point really is, are we ashamed of our Lord?

You got it. We must be concerned more about the Lord, and reconciling souls, when we are of our own image or reputation. We must seek to win the world, not please the world. We must seek to make the world a friend of God, instead of making ourselves friends with the world (which is enmity against God). The world must change in order to be acceptable to a Holy God. We must not seek to change to be acceptable to a sinful world.

Most of the churches our family has attended are teaching kids hip hop, break dancing, puppets ect.. Why not take the kids out to hand out tracks? I have taken my kids to the flea market with me to hand tracks out and they love it, even my 7 year old. They have also experienced some rejection but they understand that it's to be expected and that's what they did to Jesus. The bible says to train up your children in the way they should go. I understand what Jesse is saying. Sure we can't all be open air preachers but we need to teach kids how to share thier faith. I've heard Watchman Nee say the first thing a person should do after they are saved is go tell somebody.

The truth is most of us should not even tell people we are 'Christians' when our lives are not bearing fruit in keeping with repentance.

"If a man's life is not right at home, he should go twenty miles away before speaking, stand up and then say NOTHING."

Amen, brother. The Lord is teaching me that this is the most important thing for me now--the issue of authority, of loyalty to Him, of intimacy with Him, of holiness. On whose behalf will I plead with sinners? And how can I ever plead with them if I am still bound by even the "smallest" sin? If my flesh still hinders hearing the Lord's voice? If the enemy still manages to counterfeit His presence? If I go out there in my own strength? Looking back at my life, I cannot but see all the times when I witnessed thinking I did God a favor, and ended up facing my own inability, my shame, and my sin. When my witness points to me and not to Him alone; when it's done by and through my fleshly power; when I only help blur or distort the picture with my presentation, then my well-meant effort is no good thing. In fact, I've done something that the Lord Jesus hasn't called me to do. I've missed the mark. I've sinned, even under the banner of fulfilling the Great Commission or saving a soul from the fire.

We must never see witnessing as something external to the totality of our service to God, as something you do on weekends or when you take a trip downtown, or when you write a post on SI, as some kind of a job. When I compromise one thing in order to witness, then my witness is already ruined. When I am self-conscious about my witness for Christ, then it is already ruined. Instead, I must do EVERYTHING (which includes my witness) in the plain sight of God, from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience, regardless of whether somebody is watching. Brothers and sisters, we must quit this kind of posing or performing to impress men and win them for Christ, if we ever have done it. Not with persuasive words of man's wisdom, but with the power of God...

I must first preach this to myself and then keep quiet until I've learned the lesson. It's amazing how quickly I can say something which seems good to me, even if the Lord has initially put something on my heart and it is quite precious, before I start feeling more self-confident and unwittingly depart completely from His instruction, and stepping on my previous accomplishment, say and do things He's never asked of me. Please forgive my rushed judgment, brothers and sisters. I see that when a word spoken doesn't come out of the reality of my life (so the message doesn't contradict the character of the messenger), but instead it proceeds from an unreal abstraction of my keen thought--or from my flesh--then I must hear Spurgeon and keep this wonderful thought to myself...

Christ said, "But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren" (Matthew 23:8). Oh if we only allowed Him to really teach us, how easier everything would be!

Should we only put on the show when an unbeliever is looking?

A man that I greatly admire is Michael Venya. He's an open air preacher who preaches EVERYWHERE that he goes.

He takes the commandment literally, "preach the gospel to EVERY creature".

As he's walking his baby carrage down the sidewalk, if he sees anybody he starts preaching.

If he's in McDonalds, he starts preaching.

If he's at the baggage claim at the airport, he starts preaching. (Actually, the security tackled him for doing this.)

He just preachings to everyone, everywhere he goes because he sees everyone as sinners on the edge of eternity, only moments away from the flames.

But he's not just a man of much preaching, but also a man of much praying and fasting. If he's not preaching the Word, he's reading the word and seeking the Lord.

I have found that the most vocal objectors to what we are doing are those that are oppressed/possessed , and those that claim to be Christians.

It's true. It was the religious Pharisees who gave John the Baptist and Jesus the hardest time too.

Speaking out, and warning a dying humanity of the judgment to come is what we are to be about, not sitting back and glibly critiquing the efforts of those that actually do it.

Good word!! Very wise.

Rejection either means one of two things. We are either doing something right or we are doing something wrong.

Our hearts must always be open to the Lord for correction from His Spirit and from His Scriptures.

I wanted to just bring this thread back to it's original topic.

THE WORLD IS GOING TO HELL. People are dying EVERY DAY. They are going to hell by the millions!

And if we love sinners, we must warn them to flee from the wrath that is to come.

If we love sinners, we will call them to stop their rebellion and surrender all to Jesus Christ.

And if we do not warn them, if we do not call out to them, then we simply do not love them and their blood will be on our hands!!

Jesse said

And if we do not warn them, if we do not call out to them, then we simply do not love them and their blood will be on our hands!!

I know it's in the Old, and I'm not saying the Old is irrelevant, but aren't we under a different set of parameters now?

For instance, Jesus is the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. All the blood of all the people who go to hell will be on His hands, as it is now, because He's taken their rap for their sins. If they reject Him, they will die in their sin.

The idea of blood being on 'our' hands, comes from what the religious authorities said when they took responsibility for encouraging the crowds to shout for Jesus crucifixion. They were happy to dump this weight of guilt on their own children, even, such was their level of resistance to righteousness. But only a few chapters later, we find the same people trying to wriggle out of what they said at that moment, when getting rid of Jesus was the most important thing in their lives.

The [u]fact[/u] is, that was all about to be in their heads [i]because[/i] they were guilty and yet could have received forgiveness immediately, if they had believed. Even at His crucifixion (if you remember) He asked His Father to forgive them. But they will bear their own condemnation for refusing to recognise Him.

Within the new organisation - the Church - we have our roles to play for each other as well as in evangelism, but God has deliberately kept a great deal of His movings in the lives of those who do turn to [i]Him[/i], secret from [i]us[/i]. Many of them have been prepared by prayer, or upbringing or real experience of God, making them easy to reap at the end when they hear real loving convicting preaching.

God Himself sends labourers into the harvest and He controls the deployment of those labourers, deliberately to take the heat off us so we can pursue His simple requirements upon our lives, albeit preaching to the lost.

Surely it is [u]God[/u] who leads people to repentance? Our part is to inform them of how they can escape His wrath... then it's their call.

Jesse, if you are labouring under the idea that you personally will carry the can for all the people you never warned, or for all the people who choose not to turn to Christ whom you did warn, then I'm not surprised it exercises your soul, makes you cry and even may stop you sleeping. These things are normal behaviour for people caught up in the will of God, without that extra 'blood-on-hands' theory you believe.

I'm not saying 'don't preach', I'm just asking if God really ever told you this, and you researched it properly under the New Covenant?

I'll be interested in your New Teatament back-up verses.

And if we do not warn them, if we do not call out to them, then we simply do not love them and their blood will be on our hands!!
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Do you find this thought in the New Testament?

The New Testament specificly says that WE are RESPONSIBLE:

Matthew 5:14 - "[b][u]YOU[/u][/b] are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

2 Corinthians 5:18 - "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to [b][u]US[/u][/b] the ministry of reconciliation."

The Great Commission was given to us. So we will be held responsible for failure to do what God has called us to do.

We will be guilty of letting the world go to hell when it was well within our power to reach out and preach the gospel.

[b]As Tozer taught, God will not only judge you for what you did but also for what you should have and could have done. As Pelagius taught, sin is not only doing what is forbidden, but also failure to do what is commanded.[/b]

We will be judged by the Law of Love. We are responsible to abide by the Law of Love. Anything that love requires is obligatory upon us. And we will be judge according to our responsibilities or obligations.

So if:

- We are judged according to our obligation

- And love is our obligation

- And love obligates us to warn the wicked

- Then we will be judged if we fail to warn the wicked.

Just like if you let a child drown in a pool next to you, when it was well within your power to help. Or if you let a family sleep to their death as their house burns around them, when it was well within your powre to call out to them and wake them up.

We will be responsible for letting sinners go to hell when it was our responsibility, imposed by the Law of Love, to warn them - plead with them - persuade them - reason with them - and even beg them to be reconciled unto God.

The Great Commission was given to us. So we will be held responsible for failure to do what God has called us to do.

Jesse, the Great Commission was given to The Apostles. Not everyone is called to be an apostle.

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." (I COR 12:28)

Mary, Martha, resurrected Lazarus, Lazarus the leper, and the Centurian are no where spoken of again after the gospels. Are they then unworthy of the even salary of the Lord?

"But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? [i]So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.[/i]" (MATT 20:10-16)

Also, Jesus spent thirty years in obscurity preparing for a three year ministry. Paul spent fourteen years preparing.

How much time have you spent preparing?

We will be guilty of letting the world go to hell when it was well within our power to reach out and preach the gospel.

What makes you think we can stem the tide of the dragon? The Lord told us "many" will take the broad road to perdition and only a small minority, elected by His sovereign will, would be spared.

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (MATT 7:14)

Churches fall into apostacy:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" (II THE 2:3)

The Dragon wars against the saints and overcomes them. The elect flee from him or are beheaded.

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (REV 13:7-8)

The Churches become superficial instead of spiritual.

"But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. [i]These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.[/i]" (JUD 1:17-19)

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (REV 11:18)

It is written. It will happen. There's nothing Tozer, you, nor I can do about it.

We will be responsible for letting sinners go to hell when it was our responsibility, imposed by the Law of Love, to warn them - plead with them - persuade them - reason with them - and even beg them to be reconciled unto God.

I viewed a few of your videos on youtube and was disturbed by your abuse of a young woman (black sweatshirt, overweight) who claimed she was a Christian. You called her a pharisee and meanly laid into her. She didn't deserve that.

You deserve that. Because what you're doing is sick, abusive, and bears nothing of the love of Christ in it. Just like a pharisee.

What will the Lord will say to you in the Great Day if that girl is turned off Jesus for life because of your insensitively offensive comments?

Brother, there are going to be so many street preachers, pastors, prophets, and theologians who are going to stand before His Throne and declare their mighty words and works, and He'll say to them,

"[i]Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:[/i] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (MATT 25:41-46)

Street preaching, it appears, is not a prerequisite for Heavenly citizenship... Though it has its rewards:

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues [i]and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.[/i] Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." (MATT 6:5)

- All Christians are called to love

- Love cannot passively sit by while people go to hell

- All true Christians love God and love their neighbor

- Therefore all true Christians will reach out and warn the wicked. It is a sure sign that someone is not a Christian if they don't want the world to be won to Christ.

But for true Christians witnessing will be natural for them. It will not be a task or a burden but it will be a delight and a blessing. They won't do it because they have to. They will do it because they want to. They will do it because they love God and love people.

And anyone who doesn't care if the world goes to hell, anyone who chooses to do nothing when it is well within their power to do something, is certainly and definitely not a Christian.

All Christians are called to love, therefore all Christians are called to do what they can do to see sinners saved from hell. Love does not and cannot let people go to hell unwarned.

Diane,

I guess I didn't see the reason of your posts.

Are your posts directed towards someone or are they just sort of general?

I see your concerns. We can't preach without the Spirit, etc.

But I don't think anyone here has been advocating preaching without the Spirit. I think we all agree that we need the Spirit. And Jesus must be with us always, even to the end of the earth. Nobody is disputing that, so I don't see the necessity of arguing about that on this particular thread.

If we truly have the Holy Spirit, He WILL lead us out into the highways and the byways. The Holy Spirit is EAGER to share the gospel with the world. If we are full of the Spirit, He will lead us to share the gospel with a lost and dying world.

And so if someone is not burdened for the hell-bound millions around us, if someone is not doing what they can to warn the wicked to flee from the wrath that is to come, they either do not have the Holy Spirit or else they are grieving and resisting the Holy Spirit. But those yeilded to the Holy Spirit will be full of boldness to preach the Word as they were in Acts.

I believe that He, the Holy Spirit, wants to witness more then any of us can possible imagine. I believe that He longs to go with the Church to the ends of the earth. He wants to dwell in us, to motive us and lead us and guide us and encourage us, why? So that we can feel good? No, so that we can win the world for Christ!

Diane said

I close with a general comment to all of God’s people: If we cannot accept admonishment directed towards us, how can we expect the unregenerate out there to trust our rebukes aimed at them. As they say: [b]What is good for the goose is good for the gander![/b] [i]emphasis mine[/i]

[i]I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that you make your bodies a quick [living] sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God which is your reasonable serving of God; and fashion not yourselves like unto the world. But be ye changed in your shape, by the renewing of your wits that ye may feel what thing that good, that acceptable, that perfect will of God is. For I say (through the grace that given unto me is), to every man among you, that no man esteem himself more than it becometh him to esteem: but that he discreetly judge of himself, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

As we have many members in one body, and all members have not one office: so we being many are one body in Christ, and every man (among ourselves) one another's members. Seeing that we have divers gifts according to the grace that is given unto us: if any man have the gift of prophecy,* let him have it that it be agreeing unto the faith. Let him that hath an office, wait on his office. Let him that teaches, take heed to his doctrine. Let him that exhorteth, give attendance to his exhortation. If any man give, let him do it with singleness. Let him that ruleth, do it with diligence. If any man show mercy, let him do it with cheerfulness.[/i]

This is the challenge, then, according to Paul, that [u]we also[/u] respond to the revelation which the Holy Spirit gives us for others.

Much has been written and preached, how that you, or I can only bring another person as far as we ourselves have gone on in God. This is why we have to be ready to receive from one another, through each other's ministries, because we will help each other to go on, and, we will go on together, demonstrating a unity in the body. Thus our spiritual lives are enriched, the body is strengthened, edified, and [i]grows[/i].

Diane, I don't expect you to disagree with me, but it would be interesting to hear how you as a preacher find yourself enriched by the congregation, if indeed you do?

Jesse, I do have a reply from you, partly resting on the truth that not everyone is called to the same variety of service for the Lord, as Paul eloquently explains in 1 Cor 12. But right now, I have an appointment with some work outside. So I'll be back ... :-)

PreacherParsly Quote:
"I'm not sure why so many have reacted to this post the way they have. All Jesse is saying is that the world boldly doesn't things, why doesn't the church? Why dispute this?"

Amen! I often wonder that myself.Why doesn't it???

Hi Jesse,

I've written you an essay. There are no direct quotes of you from this thread, but I have alluded to your words, I hope accurately enough.

It's nearly light here now and I toyed with not posting till after I've had some sleep. But I'll risk it. If you think I haven't been gentle enough, please tell me, and be gentle at the same time please. I have tried to share the thoughts which have come to me as an explanation for the apparent disconnects which this thread has generated, which seem to me to be unnecessary, seeing we are all on the same side.

Also I've been trying to understand what it is you don't see, without intending to fall on you from a great height for not being able to see it. I hope you can give me credit for that, because I haven't watched your videos and I don't intend to criticise you for doing what God has called you to do.

This leads me to comment that you seem to feel free also to criticise others, though, in a general way, for not doing what [i]you've[/i] been called to do. But this deduction is erroneous as how can we give account of our obedience to the Father's will, if we are not doing what He has told us?

I realised, this evening, that the thread's title also is misleading, in that the whole Church cannot be street preachers, even if every member should be able to give a reason for the hope that is in him or her. This is not to be lukewarm but to acknowledge the other parts of the body.

Further, not everyone should be let loose in a pulpit. If you've never heard someone 'preaching' who has not been called to preach, and felt the death settle on those who find themselves condemned to listen, you haven't missed a thing. :-?

I would like to put it to you that you could take much more interest in what God has said to [i]others[/i], and nurture them\\us in their\\our obedience to Him. This would be the outworking of the general exhortation in Hebrews to 'provoke one another to love, while it is today'.

Earlier, when I quoted Tyndale, the very point he is making (in case it was not clear to you) is that whatever a person's ministry, gift or calling, they should make themselves available to that, faithfully, and they should make sure they are admonished and edified by the word brought through the exercise of their gift, as much as the others in the body for which it or they were given. Amen. I think it is one of the clearest marks of spiritual integrity under God, when a man realises he must blaze the way in his own following of Christ, before he can lead anyone else to that point.

Following on from that thought, assuming Peter wasn't one of those (and that neither are you), there is a phrase which I believe you could borrow from his book, namely: save yourselves (Acts 2). Your aggression against fellow-saints, as if they are 'letting' an unbeliever go to hell, [i]after[/i] the person has heard the word but not received it, is not scripturally accurate. This exhortation was given by Jesus to His hearers: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matt 10:28). Not the brethren, but the unsaved are being urged to fear Him. He is going to save us from the wrath to come.

You see, while there are a few people who can claim a formal ministry, which is recognised by others with degrees and church affiliations, who are accountable within denominational systems and codes of conduct, many of us (especially at SI), are working to at least as high a standard or higher, because we feel accountable directly to the Lord, and we feel something like what happened to Peter and John, as John records here:

[i][Jesus] saith unto him the third time, Simon, [/i]son[i] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [/i]thee[i] whither thou wouldest not.

This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, [b]Lord, and what [/b][/i]shall[i] [b]this man [/b][/i]do[i]? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, [b]what[/b] [/i]is that[i] [b]to thee? follow thou me[/b].

Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [/i]is that[i] to thee? [/i] (John 21)

You state that those who do not have a heart for the lost, maybe don't have the Holy Spirit, or are grieving the Holy Spirit. But there are a great many lost people [u]in churches[/u], who present recurring opportunities for spiritual nurture, and there are many more opportunities to apply the gospel to situations in daily life which those of us who do not work on the streets (any more, or, all the time), are presented with continuously - perhaps for more hours in the day than a street preacher faces. For those who don't know better, such implications cause confusion and condemnation. When I say 'know better', I mean, know how God is leading them [i]not[/i] to be 'preachers' [i]because[/i] He's equipping them for a completely different kind of service.

One of the things I've wondered, knowing that you believe a person who becomes a Christian will follow Christ (not without any nurturing or discipling, but will have been dynamically changed enough to do the following), is whether you have ever given any thought to the kind of commitment some Christians give to their ministry, which makes a place available to meet, week by week, month by month, year by year, bearing the cost of bills, hospitality, staying up late to prepare, getting up early to pray, raising children, holding down full time employment (often) as well, and somehow holding together marriage and other responsibilities? This kind of pressure is what produces the fruit of the Spirit in a person, because if they are not abiding in Christ, they cannot cope.

These are the ones who are going to be there for those you bring into 'the Church' as raw converts, who are going to find food for them from the word of God, that they may grow. Who have to find food for themselves from the word, that they may have something to sustain them while they pour out to others. I don't mean that they pull out some verses which sound as if they must be relevant, (but aren't), but that they allow themselves to be led by the Holy Spirit in conversation and counselling, so that they give the young saint the right balance of attention, example and spiritual food as God brings it to their heart.

Here are a few things I think about 'the lost'. One is, that it's pretty hard to believe that in the English speaking countries there are many people who are completely unaware of Christmas. They have heard of Jesus, even if they don't understand what He was about.

Also, God is always speaking. People have a conscience and feel their guilt, often quite supernaturally and not because of the value system they are adopting, or, were raised with (whether those are the same or different). They cannot get away from their sense of being out of fellowship with God. He makes them know it.

Therefore, when people find themselves in a very deep hole, sinking in the miry clay, drowning in sin, sorrow, depression and heartache, it is a surprise to find that God is also there with them, giving hope and causing them to cry out for help - not necessarily mercy, for they may not understand anything about sin - because God is desirous of being their reconciled Father, (Acts 17) and they have been unbelieving children (Eph 2).

Really, they don't need any more antagonism from the preaching fraternity. They need answers. They need the gospel to be comprehensively presented, so they can fit their woe-set into what they are hearing, and God will use a methodical presentation perhaps even more effectively, than one which is emotionally charged with overstatements. One does not have to shout 'wrath' for wrath to be 'wrath', as long as what 'wrath' means, is clearly communicated.

Frances Schaeffer pondered over how he would present the gospel if he had only one hour with a man, and concluded he would spend 45 minutes on the wrath of God, and 15 minutes on God's answer to His wrath. However, I would add that people are not necessarily being difficult when they don't see what the problem is about sin; when they don't get why God even cares. They genuinely don't see. They are blind. They genuinely don't hear. They are deaf. They geniunely aren't sorry. They are dead. It is only the word of [i][b]life[/i][/b] which is going to reach their brand of opacity, and cut through it like a knife in butter, and that might be just one word or phrase. Then you need to let God continue His own work in them.

Also, I hope you preach healing to them, and not only sin. Because Jesus preached healing and repentance together, but there is no record of Him calling a person directly, a 'sinner'. He may have told them what they did wrong 'you gave me no kiss', or forgiven them without being asked for forgiveness, or by His presence brought them conviction of sin (as Zaccheus), but He [i]loved[/i] the people for whom He was about to die, [u]and they could tell that He did[/u].

I have one last thought to share. It's tough to keep going through with God. Not everyone (eg me) has any idea what is involved in [i]being[/i] a Christian, but God has a way of letting us fall into all kinds of trouble, so that we need Him to get us out, and also find how much we need Him in the process, proving again and again that if it's left to us, we fail. However, [i]if[/i] someone like me, who has a reasonably disastrous past can be pulled through by God, so can many others. But I came through because people in churches honoured my needs with their time and prayers, as much as by my own determination to know God for myself, and I suppose I feel a bit of sympathy for the concern that maybe you don't honour the members of your audiences [u]enough[/u], bearing in mind that they bear the image of God, albeit marred.

I work with a charming group of Asians, some obviously of gentile descent, one of Ishmeal, another Jewish, another of Seth. It's fascinating to consider this. But I have no idea how to present Jesus to them except by caring for the things which matter to them, at the same time as being completely independent in my thinking, and value system. In passing, these men all have wives and are faithful to them. It's the Europeans who are living out of wedlock. :-o :-o :-o Also, I believe in situations where the believer is with the same people day after day, and everyone knows they are a believer, [u]the heat is on the believer to show forth Christ[/u] in such a way as people have to ask questions, for the good of their own souls.

You know, people are listening for the voice of the Shepherd. Something inside them tells them they'll know when they hear it. When you preach, can they hear Jesus calling them into life? Does His word create faith in them? Can they tell that He's alive in you, because you love them? Or might they wonder about that?

I do ask myself aaaall the same questions and know they are not rhetorical.

Certainly not everyone is called to open air preach or to preach in a Church.

All I am saying is that no Christian is called to be lukewarm for Jesus.

We are all called to be bold and zealous in the Lord.

No Christian is called to withold the gospel.

Every Christian is called to share the gospel.

No Christian is called to let souls go to hell.

All Christians are called to love the lost.

I tried to make this point earlier in the thread, but I was just considering that Leonard Ravenhill said he would be suprised if 2% of the professing chrsitians in America are born again. Bill Bright reports that about 2% of professing Christians share the Gospel regularly... you do the math.

I perosnally see no value in training our unconverted youth to go out and "share the gospel". If they are truly converted they will find their calling, either in the secret closet of prayer (that benefits those of us who are out publicly sharing the Gospel), out on the streets with tracts, down with the homeless feeding the least of these my brethren to bring glory to Jesus...

of course we all should take part in these things to some degree, but a hand is never called to be a foot, and likewise, the true brethren are a body and Jesus Christ is the head.

To paraphrase Paul Washer

I go to evangelism conferences and here people say things like 'God wants to do so much, but we just won't let him, because we are his hands and we are not moving'... That is absolute stupidity! As if God's up moaning and groaning in heaven over what to do with His body. The great commision is Gods work and He will get it done! You have been called to participate in it, if you do you will be blessed, if you do not you will lose but God will complete His work.

In Christ - Jim

PS - That quote is from The Glory of God in Missions, one of the best Washer sermons on this site.

Diane - I have been out street preaching, thundering forth the moral law and the severest threatenings of Gods judgment against His enemies whom he hates with a Holy hatred (sinners) and have witnessed passers by fall down weeping under conviction and crying out what shall I do to be saved...

Are you saying this is wrong?

your brother in Christ - Jim

Diane-

I have just finished reading His journal with notes by Jonathon Edwards... glory to God for His work. As Brienard says in His journal, God would awaken indians to their state, then cause them alarm and ultimately "comfort them", that is give them the witness of the Spirit.

As you know Brienard was very influenced by Gods working through Jonathon Edwards and on his death bed wrote to his professing Christian friends to avoid the common chrsitianity of his day and to study some of Edwards works. If you have ever heard sinners in the hands of an angry God, you would know that Breienard by no means came against fire and brimstone preaching in any fashion.

And by the way, Brainerd had a terrible struggle trying to overcome the bad immage of Christianity that the Indians had developed in the minds. That is the concern I address.

People hate God without cause, the reason we should be concerned is that they view christianity as powerless and just another form of religion. I am afraid by your words that you are in error on the opposite side of Jesse sister. We can only "turn people off" by bringing reproach through sinful, wordly and powerless living.. not through the preaching of the Gospel. if someone is turned off by the preaching of the true Gospel, Christ crucified, (which brings along sin, rightousness and judgment) it is because they hate God.

God will draw some through the gentle yoke of Christs commands, some through the terrors of the law, some through encounter with a blinding light, some by miraculous healings, these all bear witness to the testimony of scripture. Who are we to toss out the means that are not conducive to our personal experience or disposition?

In Christ - Jim

Yes, I am familiar with the sermon, and also with Edwards’s testimony. Edwards, like Brainerd, had the brokenness and humility, and the Spirit, and a great deal of Biblical knowledge.

Amen and Amen!

He could connect with people. Not all who preach fire and brimstone do.

The Spirit could connect with people through Him because he was connected to the Spirit!

They are sounding gongs (1 Cor. 13) May the Spirit expose any root of arrogance in our hearts, pride, fear, or anything that may hinder his work in us.

Diane - I agree with you in principal. I wanted to add that I in NO WAY ENDORSE the shameful tacticts used by Open Air Outreach on college campuses. I qualified my statement earlier with that we couldn't turn people off by preaching the true Gospel. Just google the "parable of the dormie" as presented by open air outreach, I do not consider this the preaching of the true Gospel.

Diane- We have a tendency to swing the pendulum of error to the opposite side of something we see as being wrong, or throw the baby out with the bath water as it is. Not all "fire and brimstone preachers' are of the same shameful and un-annointed mold.

There are Edwards and Whitfields and Wesleys in our day, though the frauds preach a similar message, it is without annointing and is appearent. As I said, for you though, don't "Throw the baby out with the bathwater".

In Christ - Jim

If you are speaking of Evan, then he has repented of doing such. Is this thread about OAO?

Preach.. I was not pointing out Evan, I know he has repented from that.. however that STYLE of preaching is the MO of OAO. That is all I am doing is using it as an example to clear up confusion between my sister and I. I guess I should have pointed her to a different OAO video.

I thought it was about Jesse's post.

and here are my thoughts on Jesses post. I do agree with it to an extent, but the underlying supposition is that our "churches" are full of "christians" who need to get out "evangelizing".

I find that to be false, the problem is that the vast majority of our "churches" are not "churches" and the "christian youth" are not "christian youth"... so to that extent it is better that we do not force them out into the streets to preach a gospel that they themselves do not live out.

Here is my main thought from earlier.

I tried to make this point earlier in the thread, but I was just considering that Leonard Ravenhill said he would be suprised if 2% of the professing chrsitians in America are born again. Bill Bright reports that about 2% of professing Christians share the Gospel regularly... you do the math.

Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus
- Jim

jimdied2sin said

I perosnally see no value in training our unconverted youth to go out and "share the gospel". If they are truly converted they will find their calling, either in the secret closet of prayer (that benefits those of us who are out publicly sharing the Gospel), out on the streets with tracts, down with the homeless feeding the least of these my brethren to bring glory to Jesus...

It is interesting that Paul referred to the gospel he preached as 'my gospel'. I took this to heart on the heels of hearing a sermon by one of the preachers featured on SI, in which he encouraged us to make the gospel our own. To prove it to ourselves by making it work through our relationship with God, that then we would have an implicit authority in our testimonies.

Once I'd internalised his meaning, I was able to rephrase my message, to make it much more of a testimony about the God who I was more and more sure I knew personally. Necessarily, I stopped trying to tell people whose experience I could not identify with, how I thought they should deal with it, and I stopped speaking for God as if I knew His mind on the intricacies of their needs. But, I could still point them to a Saviour who would bear them up and a God who answers prayer and is able to change both situations and people.

I agree with you that youngsters who have not met the Lord and even those who have, are not necessarily to be put in danger on roadsides in the way Jesse suggested. Not only unbecoming for a Christian would it be, but I'm sorry that any teenager has to do that.

RevKerrigan said

Maybe part of the problem is that people are too busy on the internet to care enough to reach out to the lost?

In the end, 'care' for the 'lost' is something God gives. It does not come from the natural man, and all the 'reach'ing which may be done, may be dead works of the flesh apart from God's grace to honour His own word where it is repeated accurately or preached with understanding. But we know from the many of John Wesley's experience, that simply making time for preaching the word, does not save a man - either the preacher or the hearer - without God giving 'the increase'.

Honestly, I'm trying to be realistic here, as I am completely sure of what God said to me a few years ago, which makes sense of my life; not only specific ways He led me over years, but even who I am (the family I was born into and the family I gave birth to) and how sermonindex has been one place I can be obedient to Him.

I am reaching out to [i]the world[/i] - not only those I perceive to be 'lost', outside the 'church', as if they are the only ones who need to understand the gospel. As one who was brought up [i]within[/i] 'the church', to whom the gospel had never been preached in my hearing with understanding (apart from once, on Isa 63:1 - 4, by one who was considered rather extreme because he knew, believed and preached the Bible), I am very aware how possible it is to be 'lost' while filling a pew on Sundays.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Now, if they truly ARE NOT saved (don't bear the fruit of repentance), then of course don't send them out.

One of the great dangers of sending out the young in faith, is that they are not given the time and space they need to grow. They are, perhaps, not allowed to have off days, or fail, or find something too hard, or need time to seek the Lord before making a decision, choice or commitment.

In the last sentence I quoted, it sounds as if the person doing the judging (of the fruit of the repentance) is a man, and it is also a man who is going to do the sending out. :-(

Now I do see that the fruit of repentance is a good thing, but I'm sure it is not always seen by the man who gives himself the power to do the sending... and what one ends up with is a man-centred focus, where a youngster in the Lord feels he has to prove himself... not in spiritual ways but in practical (works) ways, to get himself noticed, so he has a chance to be picked for sending... none of which is really God's way.

God Himself takes responsibility for the people He sends, and a believer's integrity has to stand first before Him. It doesn't matter if no-one else recognises God has called him, or backs him up, supports him, pats him on the back or gives him credibility amongst his local peer group; as long as God has given Him a word to speak and that is the word he speaks faithfully.

The man who preached the gospel to me was one such... standing in the pulpit of Horatius Bonar, preaching his heart out to a fairly dead congregation, of which I was one very young teenager. Not so many weeks after, that man died of a heart attack, but, [i]after[/i] he made an eternal impression on my life.

He didn't call us names. He pointed us to Jesus. He didn't condemn us for the death in which we were bound, he pointed us to the one who could give us life. He challenged the pretences he saw, that 'all is well', by bringing to life this Man in red who was riding into our consciousness, our Deliverer.

Did he 'care'?

How do you know whether I 'care' or not?

Who decides?

As Mike said

...[i]and make disciples[/i]

There is some burden on those who preach, teach and write like this, not to make disciples of themselves, just as the followers must take responsibility for [i]not[/i] following [u]a man[/u] (or woman), but rather, [i][b]Jesus[/b][/i].

Surely we each need God to burn [i][b]His[/i][/b] will into our consciousness, and draw from us obedience to it, so we won't be standing before Him one day when He asks why we did what we did, saying some [i]man[/i] told me to.

I think we all have (what has been called) 'selective hearing' to some extent, and we need God to challenge our relative deafness, but in the end, what He is after is a life laid down. It is not that He might call us to our most prized imaginiation of ourselves in His service, but that He might call us to Himself, to serve Him with fidelity and total abandon, [i]whatever[/i] He calls us to do. He has His own way of making that kind of life [b]speak[/b] for Him.

Can't someone tell someone else their testimony?

Those of you who have been sent to reap... well, I think maybe you also do a bit of seed-sowing and watering, and should be expecting to take care of the tender young plants which are growing from the previous preachers' obedience.

I think that's all anyone who criticises Jesse's style wants to hear... that you understand you are part of a much bigger invisible team, and when people don't receive the gospel, it is they who will answer for it - not the preacher who loved them with the pure word of God.

John 16:9
[He will convince the world] "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

roadsign said

According to Gothard, a lot of youth got right with God real quick - after they realized that their lives could be at stake.

The problem with this rebuke is that it is laden with presuppositions. Trust me, you don’t need to be a Christian to witness.

Abe Juliot has started two or three threads, attempting to draw out discussion on the place of doctrine in evangelism... and your example is perfect for it... but no-one answered him.

I realise it's spiritually healthy to testify soon after any major spiritual event, but too much exposure acts to prevent growth, just as not enough does the same. My main concern is the danger of ignoring the [i]need[/i] for spiritual progress,

Gothard's section titles continue:

...How a wounded spirit causes communication breakdown
How family conflicts affect our future
Consequences of rejecting authority

Hmmm ... That list was just beginning to get interesting!

Hello Diane...!

I really didn't expect quite such an affirmative answer!

So you see, Gothard was not one for easy believism and simplistic formulas. He didn’t send his “flock” to the wolves unprepared and naïve.

roadsign wrote

Gothard makes this point about walls better than I do!

That is a remarkable statement by him. It is exactly what I was trying to say also, to describe how you have a way of seeing this 'reflection' thing as well as the whole matter of blind spots (which has been a major theme of your posts in this thread).

Certainly, without anyone having to agree with either of us, Gothard plainly states exactly what happens when people react to what they see on the outside, without keeping cool long enough to understand the preconceptions both they and the other person brought to the encounter.

' "Whether we realize it or not we are projecting attitudes to the people around us. These attitudes cause them to form an image of us.

When people react to us or build walls against us it is important for us to look at their rection and see if they are mirroring back to us the wrong attitudes which we have towards them." '

Food for thought in my own life.

I am a 39 year old woman with 5 kids, I work part time and I open air preached for the second time at a breast cancer awareness rally BY MYSELF.

I am a member on another message board and I can tell you that VERY FEW of those men or women ever encourage me, not that I seek to please men.Most of the open air preachers (about 98% of them) on that board have nothing to say to me though they have plenty to say on this board.

They encourage each other all the time and ignore me as if I'm not there.Yes, it does hurt but it has made me all the more determined to seek God first. I just wrote a letter to a preacher who was at the revival conference whose wife also is a preacher/pastor to get his opinion. I do not just go out and do things without seeking the will of the Lord first.

It actually has taken me 15 years before I could even figure out if this is the Lord or not and Im still searching.Finally I just decided to act on it and see what happens.

Bottom line is that you have to do what is in your heart. If all you feel led to do is get on your knees and pray for people than that is what you do. You may even be more effective than I am.

Jesse Quote:
"This is a picture of a girl in South Carolina, standing on a street corner with a sign. If she is going to such an extreme extent to get a message out to the general public, it must be a very important message right? Wrong. She is doing this because she is getting paid to promote a halloween store...."

Jesse, you draw attention to what unbelieving women are doing but what about christian women like me who work, have kids and are serving the Lord?

Quote:
"Let's take this as a rebuke from the devil. If the devils children can stand on street corners for him, can not God's children stand on street corners for Him???? You will answer that question by your life...."

If this is so upsetting then where is the rejoicing when others are serving????

You even have pictures of the heathen.Yet when a working woman with five kids is preaching the gosple, handing out tracks and witnessing to the lost you have nothing to say.

Plenty of praises to the men though.

I would like to take the time to thank all of the women on this board for what they are doing! :-)

Not just the women but all of the God seeking people of God!

Keep praying, keep exhorting, comforting and encouraging one another!

THE GREATEST THING OF ALL IS LOVE!!!

Don't get discouraged, seek God and what He wants from you. He loves you and there is no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.

Do you love God? Do you walk after the spirit? Than be at peace and rest! You will find God's will for your life.He will reveal it to you in His time.

I did get a respond from my email and it was very encouraging.

I will continue to preach as the Lord leads me and though all forsake me still I will follow Him.

roadsign wrote:

glorytoglory:

They [men] encourage each other all the time and ignore me as if I'm not there.Yes, it does hurt but it has made me all the more determined to seek God first.
…
Plenty of praises to the men though.

roadsign quote: I understand this! Yet I feel that this may not be a deliberate (conscious) oversight. Let’s admit, we are all naturally more aware of our “own kind”.

Thanks Diane,
I was convicted of judging them when I wrote this. I don't want the praise of man at all. If I wanted the praise of man I certainly would not be open air preaching because all I probably will ever get is criticism but who knows. :-)

I was encouraged by a pastor from the church of one of the other pastors at the revival conference to stay around those who will be an encouragement to me and that is what I intend on doing.People like yourself, thanks. :-)

roadsign wrote:
Thank you GlorytoGod for your words of encouragement to me...

... and while we're on the topic:

I was encouraged …. to stay around those who will be an encouragement to me….

A pastor once told me about two kinds of people: the “drainers” and “gainers”. You can’t let yourself be drained by those who discourage you – which is what ungodly criticism does. And you need the edifying influence of the “gainers”. Yet, he pointed out that we need both kinds of people in order to grow. God’s grace-builders (the sand-papery ” types) toughen us for the battle.

I was convicted of judging them when I wrote this.

Praise God for his ways of bringing conviction. Why is it that we see these things best AFTER we write and expose our thoughts - after the world sees it:-o )

This reminds me of the “Conviction or Condemnation” thread. It is an attempt to gain discernment – to know which voices to reject, and which to accept as from the Lord.
Some criticism is helpful – and ultimately encouraging. After all, don’t we all have our blind spots, and aren’t we all “prone to wander”? - using words from the hymn, Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing

O to grace how great a debtor
Daily I’m constrained to be!
Let Thy goodness, like a fetter,
Bind my wandering heart to Thee.
Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here’s my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

Diane

Actually when I wrote it, it did seem like the right thing to do and I'm still wondering if maybe it was the right thing to do. This was an open rebuke to the church and I openly rebuked back.

I do take back the personal attack on Jesse and anyone else on this other board.Personal attacks are wrong.

It is possible that every post I have written in the last 5 years on my own desires and efforts in evangelism was all just one big huge massive oversight or maybe he/they just didn't think to respond for whatever reason.

I have recieved a little bit of encouragement from some. When I saw that picture of that woman holding the halloween sign though and the efforts to make this thread and rebuke the church, I thought to myself if it means so much why not encourage me more???

I guess this is just all coming out over hurt feelings on my part and I do apologize to everyone.

I will continue though to take the advice of this Godly man at Times Square Church and keep doing what I am doing which is preaching the gosple.

I just wanted to say I am thankful for those on OAO who have been an encouragement to me.

I am a 39 year old woman with 5 kids, I work part time and I open air preached for the second time at a breast cancer awareness rally BY MYSELF

Wow! I never knew that! That's awesome! Your an inspiration!

roadsign wrote:
Glorytoglory, I apologize for writing your name incorrectly. I also acknowledge your humble spirit of conviction, and the gratitude you express for those who encouraged you, even in the midst of the discouragers.

I also support your counter-rebuke, and trust that it will be received with humble repentance. I am not wishing to be unkind to my brother, but to admit that I realize from personal experience, how easy it is to hurt the church inadvertently.

After listening to Conlon’s message regarding angry watchmen, I feel it is important to do as you have done: try to snuff out those potentially dangerous fires that Conlon witnessed in his dream.

We need to guard the “Bride”. May God give us more boldness!

Diane

Thanks Diane,

That is exactly what I felt like I needed to do when I wrote this was to "gaurd the bride" as you say. I wrote it out of love and with a broken heart. I cried and prayed last night and have felt heart broken all morning between this and Carter Conlon's message.

This was not at all meant to be an attack on anyone personally.

Lazarus1719 wrote:

I am a 39 year old woman with 5 kids, I work part time and I open air preached for the second time at a breast cancer awareness rally BY MYSELF

Wow! I never knew that! That's awesome! Your an inspiration!

Thanks Jesse for your encouragement.

I'm being healed and delivered from The Lie. It's The Lie that has been put forth here in America that says, "You can be a good Christian and still pursue the American Dream."

AMEN!

Here is a great word from David Wilkerson I just read and added to my site. For those who don't have time to read it, here is a quote:

Our God is a consuming fire. For those willing to walk into that wall of fire, all sin and self will be consumed by His holy fire. When the worldly sins of lust, adultery, sensuality come roaring down, it will find nothing in you to consume. You will be able to say with Christ, "The wicked one cometh and hath nothing in me."

[url=http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/undated/tswall.html]http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/undated/tswall.html[/url]

In Christ - Jim

Spitfire said

And the main thing is, I now understand that this old way of thinking is really a spiritual power, a spirit, it's the spirit of the world and it's God's enemy and so shall I be if I walk with it. This earthly mindedness is the Lie.

Thank you for sharing all this. Amen. :-D

It is a real joy to hear your testimony of clarity... and it leaves me with a question... about a post you made some time ago, in which you remembered in a previous revelation, you were left dangling in a tree, unable to get down.

Are you down from the tree yet?

If my question is premature, please ignore it. I just want you to know you are loved and supported as you make your next step to freedom.

Reading Spitfire's and roadsign's posts, I suddenly remembered this post from ignitemysoul, which also describes an urgency to escape from fire.

Two Visions! NEED YOUR HELP!

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11296&forum=35]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11296&forum=35[/url]

Spitfire wrote:
Roadsign asks:

It is a spiritual place. How do we get people to flee there?

I think we must strive to make people understand that there's a war going on and it is [i]the[/i] most significant reality there is. It's the war between God and Satan over the souls of men. Sure, there will be many who call us fanatics and lunatics, but there will be some whom God has given grace to understand who will listen to us. We need to tell people that the most powerful weapon that Satan is using is deception and he has come, full bore, into the church with this lie of mixture. It's a lie that will kill as sure as the fire. It destroys people from the inside out. To flee is to turn with all your heart to the pure Word of God. To flee is to lose your life in this world (success in every sense of the word), and cling to God in total abandon.

When I went to preach at this rally I felt led to tell them to turn to God before it's too late. I really don't plan what I am going to say when I preach to people. I am not eloquent at all. I ask God to fill my mouth. I felt this urgency and still do everyday. I can't wait to get back out and preach again. I'm surely not the greatest preacher of all time but it is not my desire to be. I'm out there to reach lost people.

Spitfire wrote:
I'm afraid. I don't know how to live in this world without health insurance and a secure home and a decent car. I don't even know how to have joy without hope for security in this life. I feel totally insecure. I want to trust God. I really do. I want to be changed. I want to go beyond the norm. I want to live by faith. How can I love not my life unto death? I want to get this. I'm so scared of the future. I'm scared because I don't know how to live without money. I don't [i]want[/i] to live without money. Is anyone listening? Are others going through this same thing?

Hi,Spitfire, I've been listening but I honestly wasn't sure right away how to answer.I've been learning to wait on God before I answer people. I don't always respond right away. We're all accountable to how we answer people.

You have fear and God hasn't given us a spirit of fear the bible says. I would just call your fears what they are, not of God.God is also not the author of confusion but of peace, so when you feel confused you know that is not of God either. The bible says not to lean unto your own understanding and I see you are doing alot of that which will only add to your confusion.

Leaning to your own understanding is something I have seen alot of christians do. Alot do it by habit but it is a really bad habit. It seems innocent but it brings alot of confusion.We are to acknowledge Him in all our ways and He will direct our paths. He will not direct your path though if you are not acknowledging Him in all your ways.

Hope that helps... :-)

Spitfire wrote:
Ok...so here's the thing. I used to encourage myself by believing that everything would work out and I would be alright and have everything I need, but now, I'm trying to find a way to lose everything and still be alright. I see it coming. I've run from it for a long time, but I [i]may[/i] have to lose everything in the near future. I'm trying to prepare myself for that, but I'm scared. My mother is dying and my husband just doesn't seem to have wisdom, but the Lord is telling me to put my life in my husband's hands and trust Him (God). It's like holding onto a dragon in a movie. I can't help but have fear to fight. I've never ridden a dragon. I'm just plain running through a gauntlet that I've never been through before. I'm afraid of not making it through in a way that pleases God. Dian.

Spifire, if most of your concern with your husband is with money I would let that fall to the wayside.David says in Psalms that I have not seen the righteous forsaken or his seed begging bread. Given that your financial problems are over. The time you spend serving God and taking care of your dying mother and family is what you will be taking with you. These things are eternal and leave no regrets. If you focus on things like money your worry you are having right now is going to be nothing compared to your regrets in the future for worrying in the first place and wasting all of you God given valuable time.

Boy did I get a reality check this morning. I took my kids to the bus stop and I met this woman and her two kids. She is from a trailer park nearby our house. She is a young woman from Tennesee and just moved down here to Florida. It was cold outside this morning and her two kids (about 5 and 7) didn't even have jackets. She said they had to leave behind alot of their things in Tennesee. It broke my heart and got my mind off of my problems real quick. I came home and right away went rummaging through some of my kids clothes they have outgrown looking for some jackets for these girls.

I got to witness to her a little before the bus came and hopefully I can build a friendship with her. She is really nice and I could tell they were responsable people who just fell on hard times. There is alot of that going on in our area.

roadsign wrote:

glorytoglory said: …tell them to turn to God before it's too late.

Spitfire said: We need to tell people that the most powerful weapon that Satan is using is deception …

Here’s my concern: When it comes to sounding the alarm, how can we be believed? This becomes increasingly difficult when the term “God” means just about anything these days. With the predominance of relativism, including pantheism incorporated in New Age type philosophies, people feel that they actually are fleeing. They may indeed be fleeing from the false philosophies (and theologies) of the past, but they are still a frog in the frying pan.

We are eventually forced to admit that within ourselves we have no authority. We are just one of thousands of voices that cram people’s minds - along with the quack “specialists” who use scare tactics to tempt you to buy their product – be it medicinal or philosophical. How can others know we are speaking God’s truths when truth is a non-entity in our culture? We have to grapple with that question, I believe.

When I was preaching at this rally about turning to God before it's too late I was speaking of today being the day of salvation.

Have you ever discovered what your gift is? I have taken these written tests one which was by Bill Gothard and it always comes up prophet and evangelist but always more of a prophet.I have taken about 5 already. The test by Bill Gothard really seemed sound. Not that a test is the last word. I have noticed that I always tend to have the need to warn people.

I have recognized that alot of men and women who are evangelists are also prophets. Some of them are more of prophets than evangelists.

Shouldn't we ask God what are gifting is and than try and use it more effectively knowing that is what we are gifted for? If I have the gift of a prophet for example and I feel like I need to tell someone to be careful your getting out too deep and I see trouble ahead and if I don't warn them because I think well who am I to go around warning people than I feel I am not using the gift God has given me.

I am nothing but I was bought with a price. If anything who am I not to use this gift He has given me?

I have been saved for 18 years not that this means anything really but I have noticed always in the past and even now I constantly feel the need to warn or draw attention to something that is being neglected. It comes natural and the closer I walk with God the more abundantly.

Then, the Lord said to me, "This is what is wrong in the institutional church. It's full of stuffed Christians."

I love the idea that the Lord used your son's stuffed otter to speak to you about the state of the church. ;-) How long ago was that?

One of the things which seems to have changed in the perspective of some of us, is that.... years ago.... there was a strong idea coming from those leading churches, that the 'right' thing to do - even if you 'disagreed' with things there - was to stay. This was seen as a good testimony. No-one seemed to care about the gut-wrenching compromise by which the ordinary saint was thus being vexed.

Now, since some people couldn't stomach 'church' any longer, and as we receive the strong word to Carter Conlon that if people don't come out they will be lost in the fire, perhaps there is hope for some of those stuffed Christians, who wake up in time to join those heading for higher ground. I want to believe there is hope for them, including [u]disillusioned pastors[/u].

Our biggest responsibility is to be a real Christian, but that comes by going down the narrow path, which is very difficult. There's suffering involved.