Jesus Christ, An Offence To ‘Westernized Christianity’

Western Christianity from a Third World Perspective
Please read prayerfully and if you take offence check yourself in comparison to the words of Jesus.
Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Is it possible that we just as Peter have been caught up in being one who:

“thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”

I believe it is worth a daily, sometimes many times a day, examination of self; asking the Lord to search me and give me the grace to see, if there be any evil way in me.

2 Cor. 13:5a
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Psalm 26:2
Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Jesus Christ, An Offence To ‘Westernized Christianity’
Kato Mivule
January 1, 2006

1 Peter 2:4-8 (ASV)
4 unto whom coming, a living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God elect, precious,
5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
7 For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner;
8 and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Blessings in Christ Jesus as we walk through the year 2006. May The Lord lead us and guide us through every step of the way closer and deeper in Him more than before. Certainly there is a lot of anticipation prophetically. However, The Lord will continue His separation of those who are His from those who are not.

‘Westernized Christianity’ on a Downward Spiral…
‘Westernized Christianity’ will continue on its downward spiral too and continuously be OFFENDED by Jesus Christ and His Holy Saints who hold onto the Testimony of Jesus Christ… “Westernized Christianity’ is NOT Biblical Christianity and we MUST SEPARATE TOTALLY from Such…

It is very clear that ‘Westernized Christianity’ has REJECTED Jesus Christ and His Holy Word and therefore OFFENDED at Christ’s Holy Word. Christ Jesus is not the Cornerstone of Western Civilization and ‘Westernized Christianity’. Christ Jesus has clearly become a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence for the whole Western Civilization and ‘Westernized Christianity’. They therefore stumble at His Word being disobedient because they love the world and are friends of the world.

Things will only continue on a downward spiral as Nations race towards a One World Government that will rise to hate and fight against Christ Jesus and His Holy Saints. Lots of warnings have been given through the Holy Scriptures and by many ‘Prophetic’ Saints of our day.

There can be no excuse that we did not get the warnings. The trumpets have been sounding loud and very clear. The Sounds of the Trumpet warning the Saints to awake are sadly an offence to those who practice and indulge in ‘Westernized Christianity’. However, still the warning has gone out and there will be no excuse.

“Christians” with one foot still in the world…
Sad to say is that many “Christians” refuse to prepare spiritually by ‘Coming Out’ of The World and its “Christian” Religious System. Even those who have come to know the Truth about The Last Days still have one foot in the world and the other in the things of God, all hoping that somehow God will continue to give them an ‘extension’ and a ‘delay’ so they can ‘finish’ their plans in the world.

To such “Christians”, the warnings of Our Lord Jesus Christ are an OFFENCE to them…they are greatly offended because Truth requires action that they change their lifestyles from that of ease to one by which they carry their cross and follow Jesus Christ.

Having returned to Africa from the United States, I have been astonished at the breadth and width of what I have termed as ‘Westernized Christianity’ and how this type of Christianity is flourishing across Africa, especially in the urban areas courtesy of ‘American Christian Media’.

The fruit of such labors by ‘Westernized Christianity’ has been the ‘Apostasy’ and the ‘Great Falling Away’. Christians, Churches and Church Leaders who used to love Jesus Christ have turned their backs towards the True Word of God and embraced fully what The West markets around the world as ‘Christianity’ but is certainly ‘Another Gospel’ and NOT Biblical Christianity.

When it comes to understanding the Prophetic Times in which we live, many have been mesmerized and hoodwinked by ‘Westernized Christianity’ that all will be fine and ‘nothing bad will happen to them’, that ‘they will be raptured away’…such false security is very common and pervasive as is always the case with folks who embrace ‘Westernized Christianity’ and its Doctrines.

Image of the World, World-ians, World-like…
I sometimes turn on Radio and TV to check out what the ‘Apostles’ of ‘Westernized Christianity’ are teaching here in Africa. I have found an amazing thing…the teachings are engineered to transform the peoples into a Western Christian Image. This is what now millions around the Christian world are striving for…to be like the American Christians they see of Christian TV.

They are being conformed to the image of the World, which is the Image of Western Civilization and all its wealth and riches. Christians around the World are being transformed into the Image they see portrayed by the ‘Apostles’ of ‘Westernized Christianity’… They are not being transformed into the Image of Christ Jesus but that of the World…

Romans 8:29 (ASV)
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Romans 12:1-2 (ASV)
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.
2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

The Word of God is very clear, that we don’t be CONFORMED to the IMAGE of this WORLD but we are to be TRANSFORMED by renewing our MIND certainly by The Word of God and not giving excuses for our easy and lax lifestyles while ignoring the Sure Word of Prophesy that we have even in light of the days we live, knowing that these are indeed the Last Days…

2 Peter 1:19-21 (ASV)
19 And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts:
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.
21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

We cannot afford to continue be transformed into the Image of this World and still call our selves “Christians”. We are NOT Christ-Like if we are CONFORMED to the Image of this World. Those so-called Christians who are Conformed to the Image of this world are to be called ‘World–Like’ and therefore ‘World-ians’ and NOT Christ-Like or Christians.

We MUST TOTALLY SEPARATE from all that calls us to be transformed into the Image of the World. Certainly as we shall see ‘Westernized Christianity’ is a powerful vehicle that is out to transform “Christians” in their churches into the Image of the world, even if possible to hoodwink the Elect – Remnant into this Image of the World.

There is absolutely no doubt that the world has successfully entered in to the Church and the doctrines being taught and promoted by ‘Westernized Christianity’ are geared to conform “Christians” to the Religious Image of the World and finally to be like the World.

The Ingredients of ‘Westernized Christianity’…
Below I have listed some of the Doctrines taught and being fully funded and supported by the “Christians” in the West through their Churches, bible Colleges, and Worldwide Western Christian Media. This has become the norm around the world and Christians are abandoning Biblical Christianity in exchange for what the West has offered them…

1) Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine (False Eternal Security)…
2) ‘Ask Jesus in Your Heart’ Doctrine…
3) Pre-Tribulation (Fly Away) Rapture Doctrine…
4) Prosperity and Materialism Gospel Doctrine…
5) Purpose Driven Life Gospel Doctrine…
6) ‘Hell is Not Real’ Doctrine…
7) ‘Jesus Loves All, Don’t Offend Anyone, False Tolerance’ Doctrine…
8) Church Growth Movement Doctrine…
9) One-Man Pastor Leadership Doctrine…
10) Tithes Doctrine…
11) Women Pastors (Ruling Over Men) Feminism Doctrine…
12) ‘The Bible Gives Various Opinions’ Doctrine…
13) ‘Miracles Not for Today’ Cessation Doctrine…
14) ‘Marriage and Divorce According to the West’ Doctrine…
15) ‘You cannot Overcome Sin until Jesus Returns’ Doctrine…
16) Dominionism, Political Christianity – Christians Taking Over World Governments Doctrine…
17) Ecumenism, Universalism, and False Unity (Don’t Separate) Doctrines…
18) ‘Multi Million Dollar Mega Church Building Project’ Doctrine…
19) ‘The Holy Scriptures are not ALL True’ Doctrine…
20) Denominationalism Doctrine…
21) Gay Marriage Doctrine…
22) ‘Seeker Friendly Churches (Friends to the World)’ Doctrine…
23) ‘Bible Colleges and Intellectualism of Christianity’ Doctrine…

…And many more, just to mention a few…

All the above Doctrines are what make up Western Christianity and are FULLY FUNDED and PROMOTED around the world by the False Apostles of ‘Western Christianity’. This is Clearly ANOTHER GOSPEL and NOT BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY as founded on the foundation of the APOSTLES AND PROPHETS and BOOK OF ACTS CHRISTIANITY.

Galatians 1: 6-10 (ASV)
6 I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel;
7 which is not another gospel only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.
9 As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.
10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? or am I striving to please men? if I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ.

So, the characteristics of Childishness, Ignorance and Lies is what in my humblest terms can best describe ‘Western Christianity’, Paul The Apostle would have better words for such…that those who hold this “Another Gospel” be ACCURSED…

1 Peter 1:13-16 (ASV)
13 Wherefore girding up the loins of your mind, be sober and set your hope perfectly on the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance:
15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living;
16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to each man's work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:
18 knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers;
19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ:

‘Westernized Christianity’ = Traditions of Men…
It is very clear that all Doctrines that make up ‘Westernized Christianity’ conform one to their ‘former lusts’ as in their time of ignorance. These ‘Westernized Christianity’ Doctrines certainly conform one to the Image of the world and cause one to follow after the lusts of the world. The Lord Calls us to TOTALLY SEPARATE from such and be Holy as The Lord Himself is Holy. We are not at one time to compromise and eat of the leaven supplied by ‘Westernized Christianity’.

We are to discern it and purge out all the leaven. We are not to give excuses, without holiness no one will see The Lord…knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, form your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers – Traditions of Men. Clearly the ingredients of ‘Westernized Christianity’ are the Traditions of Men, which only cause men to love the world and be friends of the world. The bible is so clear that we be not conformed to the Image of this world, be friends of the world or even love the world. We are clearly to be SEPARATE and HOLY unto The Lord…

Romans 8:5-8(ASV)
5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So, a very critical analysis of the Ingredients of ‘Westernized Christianity’ clearly shows that such doctrines are formed to entertain the flesh and not put death to the flesh that the life of Christ Jesus might fully be formed in us. ‘Westernized Christianity’ is after the mind of the flesh and therefore an enemy to God. One can therefore NOT Please God while embracing the Doctrines of ‘Westernized Christianity’. It is clear that we must weed out and purge out this leaven of ‘Westernized Christianity’ and follow wholly after God’s Pure Word with NO COMPROMISE…

1 Corinthians 5: 4-8 (ASV)
4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ:
8 wherefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

‘Westernized Christianity’ is All About Man and Money…
…And if one notes carefully, All the above doctrines have to do with Man and a RETURN to The LAW by Rejecting God’s Word and the Grace it Provides…and also a Money Making Scheme and an Easy Life that the Western Culture Provides, especially in America…

The West is the GREATEST promoter of the ‘Another Gospel’ because of her wealth and affluence. Therefore the West receives the “harshest, sharpest “ of all rebukes. Western Christianity is Totally tied to Money and Mammon and engrained in the Culture of Babylon as in Revelations 18…

Come Out of Her, Come out of The Harlot System…
My advice is that All True Christians should COME OUT OF HER; least they partake of her plagues and judgments… Yes, The Lord is calling ALL True Christians to come out of Babylon America and her ‘Western Christianity’ and Return to Bible Christianity as established by The Teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostles in the Book of Acts and the Epistles…

I lived in America seven years and I had to ‘Come Out’ of the ‘Western Christianity’ Doctrines – I had to come out of the Babylonian Religious System… It was hard and painful but very releasing and actually healing to me as I obeyed the Word of The Lord. Once I came to hear and know the Truth from God’s Word, it set me free from the Traditions and Laws of ‘Westernized Christianity’ a.k.a. Modern, Post Modern, and Emergent Christianity.

Truth is sometimes painful and hard to deal with because Truth requires you take action to act on the Truth we have known or heard. The Human tendency is to shield our selves with numerous excuses and of course the West has devised ways to not be offended by Truth…God’s Word is Clear COME OUT OF HER, BE SEPARATE…

Revelations 18: 4-5 (ASV)
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: 5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

‘Western Christianity’ boasts of its wealth and resources and therefore refuses to REPENT and turn away from such evil Doctrines and even takes the audacity to chastise and persecute those who speak Truth by calling them “Hateful”, “Unchristian”, and “Filled with Bitterness”. The Lord Jesus Christ is so clear…

Revelations 3:14-22 (ASV)
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

‘Western Christianity’ Offended by Truth…
With this kind of ministry I have from The Lord to warn and call people to repentance, I have been distasteful to those who practice and embrace ‘Westernized Christianity’. I have been referred to as “Hateful”, “Lacking Love”, “Full of Bitterness”, “Intolerant” and “ Self Righteous”, many more. The Truth is that the Parishioners of ‘Westernized Christianity’ HATE TRUTH and are OFFENDED by the very words of Jesus Christ.

I have noticed many who stand in the same calling and anointed to call God’s people to Repentance being called “Hateful” and “Filled with Bitterness” and “Self Righteous” by those who love the goodies that the rich and affluent western civilization offers. This includes those so-called remnant Christians who refuse to repent and still love the world and the things therein.

I have spoken to a number of Pastors and Church Leaders here in Africa whose eyes are open to see and hear Truth and they DETEST ‘Western Christianity’ and are asking what they should do. They are fed up with Western Christian TV Programming and lies spread on so-called Christian TV. They see the fruit is the World in their congregations and a Great Falling Away. These things are taken lightly in the eyes of Americans who hold onto Western Christianity Doctrines but it is very GRIEVOUS BEFORE THE LORD…

I have called a ‘Spade’ a ‘Spade’ and not called a Spade a ‘Big Spoon’. I know The West has been socially engineered to believe and accept only “Love” Gospel and total Hate for any ‘John The Baptist’ Preachers; the West always ‘requires such preachers’ heads on a platter’… I am used to e-mails of people calling me “self righteous”, “bitter”, “hateful”, “bigot”, “filled with rage” simply because I challenged them and told them that their ‘Western Christian Ways’ of Thought are Childish, Ignorant and Lies…and none can dispute any of those HARD PAINFUL FACTS AND TRUTH…

Jeremiah 16:19
O Jehovah, my strength, and my stronghold, and my refuge in the day of affliction, unto thee shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Our fathers have inherited nought but lies, even vanity and things wherein there is no profit. (ASV)

The West has been Socially Engineered to not be “Offended” at All, every one has to be “Positive” and anyone who does otherwise is “filled with bitterness” and “a hate for the brothers”, and “not weak to the weak”…this is nothing short of an escapism mentality and pure double mindedness and hypocrisy on part of the West while The Rest of The World FULLY ABSORBS ‘WESTERN CHRISTIANITY’ LIES WITH NO RESISTANCE…

Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebuke Than love that is hidden. (ASV)

No Apologies for Truth…
I cannot therefore apologize for Truth as laid down in God’s Word. If I did, I would have to totally recant all that I believe as True and put all my Tools back in the Tool Box and head back to Rome. (I hear The Pope needs more “open-minded” people and “love” from Christians”).

The West and ALL its civilization is OFFENDED by Jesus Christ and His Word. This can be seen in all institutions of the West such as Academic, Political, Social, and Economical…Jesus Christ and Holiness don’t sell.

The Rock of Offence for the West is Jesus Christ. He is also a Stone of Stumbling and as a result Judgment is headed towards the West in great severity and harshness because they knew the truth and rejected it for lies.

Repent and turn away from ‘Westernized Christianity’…
My message to Christians in the West is to totally REPENT and turn away from ‘Westernized Christianity’ to True Biblical Christianity. Let this be the year that those who stand make a clear stand and not ‘soft peddle’ the Gospel in endeavors to entertain and not offend the Rich and Affluent ‘Westernized Christians’… There is no middle ground. The time for ‘Cheap Grace’ is over and the time of Christians using “be weak to the weak” as a cover for their sins, error, and self-indulgent lifestyle is over.

If you are of The Lords’ then make your stand known and not lukewarm, if you are cold be cold, if you are hot then be so… Decide this day whom you will serve, ‘Westernized Christianity’ – Babylonian Christianity or Jesus Christ in Holiness and Fear, working out your salvation in fear and trembling…make your choice today and don’t hinder those who want to run after The Lord by claiming grace, grace, when it is a cover to indulge more in the delicacies of ‘Westernized Christianity’…Make Your Choice Today!

Repentance Preachers, Sound your Trumpets Louder…
For those who are called to preach Repentance and Warn all men about the coming Judgment, sound your Trumpets even louder. Don’t ‘relent’ Truth; call a Spade a Spade and Don’t Call a Spade a Big Spoon so as to sound Politically Correct so as not to offend ‘Westernized’ hearers. This is the time when Men hate to Hear Truth…and are busy looking for teachers who will entertain them… ‘Westernized Christianity’ HATES the Cross of Jesus Christ and are not willing to carry their cross an inch…that is why when they hear about the coming judgments, they ask for more extensions from The Lord so as to indulge more in the delicacies of Western Civilization…

2 Timothy 4:1-5
1 I charge thee in the sight of God, and of Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2 preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.
5 But be thou sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry

Those who tell them the Truth are their enemies…

Galatians 4:16
16 So then am I become your enemy, by telling you the truth?

The West and its ‘Westernized Christianity’ is increasingly becoming very hostile to Truth and those who proclaim Truth and call for Repentance are seen as Enemies… Jesus Christ is the Rock of Offence to the West and Western Civilization but for sure Jesus Christ is the same Stone of Stumbling that will cause the Collapse and Demise of Western Civilization…for His Judgments are Righteous, Just, and True…Amen!

Your Fellow Servant in Christ Jesus
Kato Mivule
Entebbe, Uganda. Africa

Brothers and sisters... please, this [i]should not[/i] be neglected, this should be read by as many as possible...

Don't be afraid of the length of the article... I feel that this is [i]prophetic[/i] and most serious warning and feel that should be sticked on the home page... There is so much here, so much of vital importance...

I must wholly agree with this brother. My country is Satan's delight. However, I do have one question. Our brother states 1) "Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine (False Eternal Security)…". I ask: Once I am born, how can I be unborn? I understand that I will face the Judgment Seat of Christ and my life and my works will be exposed to His fire:
12)Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13)each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

14)If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

15)If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (1 Corinthians 3:12-15). If I am born of God, I will be saved, but will suffer loss and as through fire. I cannot make up for the things that I have done. I can only work out my salvation with fear and trembling and unto His glory. The reason that I love Him is because He first loved me.
I am not writing this to play games. This is more than seriuos! As I have first stated, this brother is very correct with the tragedy of "Western Christianity". As I study the Word and history, and the Apostles (Paul especially), fought the fake gospel daily and when Constantine legalized Christianity, the enemy stepped right into our blessed faith. We are repeatedly told by our brothers in the scriptures that we, the Church are to suffer and be persecuted for the Life of Jesus Christ "if we suffer, we shall reign with Him" (2 Timothy 2:11). I ask for your discipline and teaching in this.
Thanks,
Mike

Hi Chrstsm,
I was considering what you said about osas and your analogy. It reminded me of Hebrews 12, which I think goes along with the rest of your post. The Lord is telling us if we do not submit to the disipline of our Heavenly Father we will not partake of His holiness. If we are not trained by it we will not yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness. I say this because it states that if we are not subject to His chastening then we will not be sons, but we will be illegitimate children. So even though we may be born, we may not attain the inheritance of the legal heir/son, but the reward of the disobedient children.

This is my very first post. Hi everyone.

In His amazing love,

Lowly

Brother Greg wrote:

"Yes, truly modern evangelical Christianity is far from the biblical original. May God show His grace and mercy to us as we seek to recover the precious jewel that we have lost."

________________________________________________

Yes Brother Greg, we need to realize that the 'precious jewel' that we seek to recover,
is the cross

"Things will only continue on a downward spiral as Nations race towards a One World Government that will rise to hate and fight against Christ Jesus and His Holy Saints. Lots of warnings have been given through the Holy Scriptures and by many ‘Prophetic’ Saints of our day.

There can be no excuse that we did not get the warnings. The trumpets have been sounding loud and very clear. The Sounds of the Trumpet warning the Saints to awake are sadly an offence to those who practice and indulge in ‘Westernized Christianity’. However, still the warning has gone out and there will be no excuse.

“Christians” with one foot still in the world…
Sad to say is that many “Christians” refuse to prepare spiritually by ‘Coming Out’ of The World and its “Christian” Religious System. Even those who have come to know the Truth about The Last Days still have one foot in the world and the other in the things of God, all hoping that somehow God will continue to give them an ‘extension’ and a ‘delay’ so they can ‘finish’ their plans in the world.

To such “Christians”, the warnings of Our Lord Jesus Christ are an OFFENCE to them…they are greatly offended because Truth requires action that they change their lifestyles from that of ease to one by which they carry their cross and follow Jesus Christ."

Yes it is time to deny ourselves, take up our cross daily, and follow Him.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi pastorfrin...

3) Pre-Tribulation (Fly Away) Rapture Doctrine…

However, is the writer of this article so bold as to claim that a "pre-tribulation rapture" is a "false doctrine" invented by the modern church? The idea of a rapture BEFORE the coming wrath of God has been around an awfully long time. It is not confined to believers in the West, as I know sincere believers around the world who either embrace the concept or are open to the possibility. I am still somewhat persuaded of a pre-tribulation rapture, even if I am uncertain that such an event is a certainty. However, I don't think that anyone can claim with complete certainty that such an event is not at least plausible.

Anyway, this is an interesting article.

:-)

p.s. - The same is true, in my opinion, of the idea of New Testament "tithing." I don't mean to sound like I am validating the idea of "varied opinions" from the Bible (#12 on the list), but there are often good reasons for particular beliefs -- even if they may be undoubtedly wrong. BTW, I don't think that some of the ideas in the list are necessarily "[i]doctrines[/i]" of the Church. Most of them are simply flawed ideas.

Thank you for sharing that, Pastorfrin. I think the Lord is in the process of showing many of His Children the things spoken of in that article. We in Western Christianity (churchianity), have departed very far from the Word of the Lord on many different topics of concern in the Christian life. I have shared this article with other brothers/sisters, as I think it is a VERY good thing for us to really consider the truth of what this "other side of the world" brother is speaking to us.

Chris wrote:
Quote:

3) Pre-Tribulation (Fly Away) Rapture Doctrine…

“For the most part, I agree with the list included in the article.

However, is the writer of this article so bold as to claim that a "pre-tribulation rapture" is a "false doctrine" invented by the modern church?”
________________________________________________________________________

I don’t know Chris, why don’t you ask him?

http://www.yesumulungi.com/index.htm

He was so bold as to claim:

16) Dominionism, Political Christianity – Christians Taking Over World Governments Doctrine…

So yes, I would guess he is that bold; again though, I would recommend you ask Brother Kato.

Happy to hear you find the article interesting.
:-)

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi pastorfrin...

I don’t know Chris, why don’t you ask him?

http://www.yesumulungi.com/index.htm

Please don't misunderstand me: I don't believe that someone shouldn't share their belief that the pre-trib rapture is untrue. I just don't think that a believer should boldly claim something as a "[i]false doctrine[/i]" that is not inarguably certain, or to equate a very old doctrine as if it were the invention of the modern "feel good" church. There are many believers here on SermonIndex who happen to be persuaded that a "rapture" might take place BEFORE the time of God's wrath upon the Earth. They are just as entitled to their conclusions as the people who aren't. In addition, neither side should go around pompously calling the beliefs of the other as false doctrines (particularly since their isn't a clear consensus from the Scripture). Even the most adament researcher of Bible prophecy should at least be able to understand WHY some happen to embrace a contradictory view on such matters WITHOUT labeling them as "believers of a lie" (which has happened from time-to-time in the forums).

The Scriptures are not decidedly clear to our flawed intellects in regards to Bible prophecy. For instance, many Jews are STILL waiting for the Messiah -- simply because they didn't understand the Scriptures that pointed to the first coming of Christ. Likewise, most of us have been persuaded to our beliefs about the "rapture" only following quite a bit of research (and discussion). Even then, some of us are still not completely convinced one way or the other. I do not, however, equate the idea of a pre-trib rapture with "easy believism." The concept of a pre-trib rapture (from my own perspective) is not to be mistaken as a belief that Christians will escape [i]persecution[/i] or worldly [i]tribulation[/i] (or even the wiles of Satan). My understanding of such a belief is that a pre-trib "catching away" will simply allow believers to be protected from the coming wrath of God that will be poured out upon the entire world. There [u]are[/u] verses that seem to indicate at least the [i]possibility[/i] of such an event occurring. Thus, it would be presumptiously and boldly unwise (and incorrect, from my point of view) to simpy dismiss such a notion as "false doctrine" without at least acknowledging the actual rationale behind the belief.

He was so bold as to claim:

16) Dominionism, Political Christianity – Christians Taking Over World Governments Doctrine…

So yes, I would guess he is that bold; again though, I would recommend you ask Brother Kato.

Again, I did enjoy the article. However, I wish that we wouldn't be so bipolar in areas where there is at least room for discussion. We should never be so limited as to feel that our beliefs are so above discussion that they are the only ones that matter.

:-)

As to "OSAS", and speaking as a "five-pointer", I agree with Jim; Eternal Security is intimately tied to temporal obedience. We are not saved by our works, but all who are saved have turned from lifestyles of sin to lifestyles of pursuing holiness and good works. OSAS is a perversion of perseverance of the Saints, and would be better called "Perseverance of God on behalf of those who prayed a prayer."

You are familiar with the four types of soil in the Parable of the Sower? OSAS essentially teaches that the last three types all go to heaven - those choked by the world, those who turn away after trials - and that a perpetual lifestyle of sin does not discredit one's experiential assurance of salvation.

[As to the Pre-Trib Rapture] I must disagree with my brother, Ccchhhrrriiisss. For myself, having come from being deeply rooted in Pre-Trib (raised in Calvary Chapel and four years at their college) I have come concretely to the opposite side. I believe that the scriptures do explicitly refute the doctrine, but that few teachers present their case properly. David Pawson's message on the Rapture is a pretty good starting point, outlining the "popular history" of the doctrine.

His message is on SermonIndex, here.

[url=http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID11649.mp3]The Rapture[/url]

Chris,

Please, go into your prayer closet and ask the Lord to deliver you from your persecution complex.
I simple requested you ask the author of the article your questions who is the only one (since he is the author) who can give his motives for what he has written.
I have not attacked you or your motives, why do you throw such insinuations at me? You assume way too much, brother.
Chris, you have taken this article and are attempting to make it an issue with me and I will not go there.
As I requested before, ask Brother Kato and I trust he is well able to answer your questions.

Your opinions are well documented and you have made them very clear to all of us here, again ask Brother Kato.

Again, happy you enjoyed the article. :-?

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi pastorfrin...

Please, go into your prayer closet and ask the Lord to deliver you from your persecution complex.

I simple requested you ask the author of the article your questions who is the only one (since he is the author) who can give his motives for what he has written.

I'm not questioning the author's motives. His website makes it quite clear what he thinks about the notion of a pre-trib rapture. I don't even have a problem with that (like I said). I simply don't think that it is wise to make a claim like was presented in the article. I think that you'll notice that if you read over my post again.

I have not attacked you or your motives, why do you throw such insinuations at me? You assume way too much, brother.

Chris, you have taken this article and are attempting to make it an issue with me and I will not go there.

Your opinions are well documented and you have made them very clear to all of us here, again ask Brother Kato.

My main issue with this and some of the other discussions in the past has been with the manner in which they are presented. Before I go any further, let me make it clear that I am NOT pinpointing any particular person (including you) in this. And let me also be clear: I do not try to “argue for the sake of arguing.” Nor am I attempting to purvey that I am a “victim” in all of this. I just feel that now is the time to voice my concerns with some of the presentations of various doctrinal discussions at SermonIndex. Nor am I trying to play the “devil’s advocate” (I hate that term). I simply want to bring to light the manner of our discussions – even within issues that I fully agree.

Recently, I have responded to several notions of doctrinal belief in the SI forums. I hope that this could be clearly understood: I recognize the right of each person to their respective beliefs, regardless of whether or not I agree or disagree. The problem, in my perspective, is the manner in which things are presented. There is a way to discuss doctrinal issues WITHOUT presenting a bipolar view of a subject. What is the “bipolar view?” It is the view in which we see things in a matter of polar extremes. The Gospel is, of course, "black and white." But God doesn't always deal with some people in such a bipolar manner. He is compassionate and forgiving to David for murder, while forsaking a Saul for his "good idea." Yet believers are often confining our views of God and others with a narrow, bipolar mannerism. We believe in "truth or lie" -- yet forget that our flawed human nature's idea of the "truth" is often somewhere in between. Still, some people present their side as if it is INDISPUTABLE. Some have made remarks as if what they were sharing were the very opinion of God.

This website contains a broad variety of believers from a plethora of doctrinal backgrounds and opinions. We have adherents and non-adherents to doctrinal beliefs ranging from once saved/always saved, tithing, pastoral authority, the gifts of the Spirit, the existence and extent of the five fold ministry in today’s Church, pre-trib, post-trib and mid-trib (and even NO trib) beliefs about the rapture, KJV-only, KJV-flawed, supremacy of the Textus Receptus (and vice versa), required Christian “non-resistance,” required Christian “non-involvement,” Christian rock and roll (good or evil), strict views of Christian modesty, etc… This list could be longer than the 30,000 members of this wonderful SermonIndex fellowship.

In fact, we should all have doctrinal beliefs in which we are persuaded through prayer and research. There are some issues that are obvious (such as those that are listed in Hebrews 6:1-2). But even those issues have diversity of opinion in the application of the beliefs (…like “[i]Should we be baptized in the Name of “Jesus” or in the Name of the “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost[/i]?” etc…). The problem, in my perspective, basically arises when one believer sincerely and honestly presents their belief AS IF IT IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS.

There are some controversial issues that are amicably discussed because each party respects the integrity of the opposite party’s opinion. I have discussed issues with which I am quite convinced with people who are quite convinced in the other direction. Yet we have ENCOURAGED one another in our efforts to both seek God in the matter and to seek the Truth as revealed in God’s Word. We may not ever reach an agreement, but the presentation is polite and not demanding of adherence or acknowledgement of a “change in belief.”

However, there are some discussions here that are hotly disputed where two separate individuals (or groups united by belief) are so adamant about an issue that they dismiss any need for discussion, if only to “convert” the other side. Typically, the issue is presented in a strong manner (…like “[i]The teaching of ‘tithing’ is a deception of the modern church meant to trap believers into giving[/i]!” etc…). While this presentation of beliefs may possibly be somewhat [u]TRUE[/u], should this be the manner in which we present our beliefs? Should we make such bold discussions that are seemingly already decided before they are presented?

It seems that we have left out the words “[i]I believe…[/i],” “[i]It is my belief[/i]…,” and “[i]I am persuaded that[/i]…” out of too many of our conversations. Instead, we shower them with “statements of fact.” “[i]The Bible says…,[/i]” “[i]God told me[/i]...,” and “[i]This is completely clear from the Scriptures[/i]…” often replaces any possibility of error in our discussions. They also convey to the adherents of opposing beliefs that they are “[i]believing a lie[/i].” In fact, those words have even been [u]written[/u] within some of the posts of various threads.

It is a good thing to have an opinion about Scripture – including those that we fully believe came by the guidance of God. Yet the question begs to be asked: Just HOW CERTAIN are we of our “facts” and “conclusions?” I have noticed some people literally present their beliefs as if they came from the hand of God Himself. Anyone who argues, it seems, must obviously believe a [u]lie[/u]. If there is ANY room for doubt, then this is not the manner in which we should conduct ourselves – even in discussions concerning doctrine.

In my own life, I have watched as some of my views have changed over time. I have seen beliefs of which I was so “CERTAIN” slowly crumble in the light of further study and research. However, an attitude of “I’M RIGHT AND CANNOT BE WRONG” doesn’t allow room for any sort of maturity in others. A good teacher should not FORCE FEED their congregation. Rather, they should lead them to an ability to make up their own mind by a preponderance of the evidence.

How does it help to present a one-sided argument with no room for disagreement?

From my initial post, I meant to express a singular issue [u]within[/u] the article provided at the beginning of this particular thread. I might not have communicated it effectively, and if that is the case, I apologize. My issue wasn’t actually with the author’s belief about the pre-trib rapture or the belief in tithing, but with this statement:

This is Clearly ANOTHER GOSPEL and NOT BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY as founded on the foundation of the APOSTLES AND PROPHETS and BOOK OF ACTS CHRISTIANITY.

I don’t agree with the teachings of Calvinism or “once saved/always saved.” However, I would hardly call the teaching ANOTHER GOSPEL. I know some individuals (even some here at SermonIndex) who are sincerely persuaded toward such a belief. Yes, they have studied this issue. And yes, I do believe that the message is Scripturally flawed. However, how should I present my beliefs? Should I immediately dismiss their sincere beliefs in favor of my own supposedly superior beliefs? Should I present my views in a manner which leaves no room for honest discussion or disagreement?

Once more, I am unconvinced about the concepts of a “pre-trib” rapture or “tithing” enough to take a definitive stand. Even though I am somewhat persuaded is the validity of both ideas, I really question the need to teach it (pro or con) without adding a disclaimer about the various views on the issue at hand. Instead, most people tend to bring a “my way or the highway” attitude – even concerning the most controversial and disputable of issues.

So what is the proper way of presenting an issue? Recently, Brother Mike has presented some helpful tips about posting in the forums. They are quick to point out the differences when dividing between fact and presumption. I feel that we should be mindful of our own flawed humanity in every communication. We should present our views on each issue without crossing the line of required [i]adherence[/i] to a particular doctrine that is not universally clear from Scripture. When we present “facts” – they should not be based upon mere presumption (i.e. “[i]The war in Iraq is obviously about oil[/i],” “[i]President Bush deceived Americans about Iraq because he wanted to go to war[/i],” or “[i]Brother Chris is deceived because he believes…[/i],” “[i]The translators of the NIV were attempting to ‘change’ the Word of God to suit their own doctrinal beliefs[/i],” etc…). It is difficult to distinguish between fact and opinion when we feel so “certain” about the rationale behind the issues. We should be careful about separating fact from myth and conclusion (or even conspiracy types of allegations). We should list TRUTH without mingling it with commentary that seeks to influence a conclusion. We should never resort to slander or character assassination.

What was the purpose of my initial post? I wasn’t trying to “accuse” you or play the “victim.” Rather, I wanted to discuss the only “flaw” that I felt might be in the initial article -- the "ANOTHER GOSPEL" conclusion following the list of "doctrines." In my last post, I simply couldn’t seem to understand your response (the quote you included from the article about “Dominionism” and “political Christianity,” and what it even had to do with my previous post). I wasn’t sure if you felt that I somehow espoused such a doctrinal view (which I felt the need to point out that I don’t). That wasn’t an “insinuation.” It was simply trying to address a possible issue in the form of a question WITHOUT accusing you of even holding such a belief. I simply don’t know why you included that statement in your reply.

As for the article, I do agree with much of what is written (with the exception of the claim that I pointed out). Thanks!

:-)

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

dear saints i do believe that once we are Saved, we are always Saved because Christ was slain from the foundations of the world and at that point is our Salvation. Now to be sure, being Saved requires work on our part also as we are co-labourers with God and we are to work out that Salvation with fear and trembling. For us to work with God to that end requires an Obedience which only He Himself can Supply because it is not to be found in us. So on the issue of Salvation, God provided the Blood for the Sacrifice and the Grace for us to be Obedient, indeed God has furnished everything we need to walk in Salvation so if we are Saved, we are always Saved in that sense. that Jesus was slain before creation says that the enemy can't go back and undo what had been decreed from before by God at that point in Eternity thereby robbing us of Salvation because Salvation depends wholly on God and He is more than capable of seeing us through.

now some people who run around pretending to be of Christ but aren't, are obviously unsaved. They front like they are but aren't. That being said, once one is Saved, one can't remain the same without progressing toward Perfection. the rate at which this happens depends on what our Lord has decreed but there is no staying at the same place as though nothing happened. Even when i would rebel against God after i was Saved, His Holy Spirit always let me know and i was always convicted no matter what and eventually i'd come Home running like the prodigal son after being out in the world a bit and catching all kinds of grief away from Him. That i would say is a mark of someone Saved, that no matter what, he/she repents and presses on into God.

As for the rapture issue, i don't think scripture supports it being pre-trib, especially given that the Revelation is written to the Church and Paul talks about the catching away as being some time after the revelation of the man of sin which is during the trib. bro Chris, the bottom line is that either the pre-trib rapture is a false doctrine or it isn't, there isn't an inbetween discussion/debate about it or not. i think it is a false doctrine calculated to lull the Church into a false sense of security that we will escape fire which is how we are proven. it is easier to be a Christian (or do anything really) under ideal conditions, the true test has always been adversity. i agree with Katz when he said, "crisis reveals and absolute crisis reveals absolutely" my wife said "we're finding out and about to find out if we are Christians in theory or in fact,"

i make no bones about my stance on the rapture, if i am wrong, our Lord will surely set me straight and we will find out soon enough. However if indeed our Lord has spoken, and has been speaking saying that this event is post trib...then we're in for a time of trial unlike anything ever witnessed. to me that makes sense since much more is expected of us, we have the whole canon and 2 millenia plus of testimony and experience concerning God to much more is expected of us i believe...but like i said, if i am wrong, then it will be me who is wrong, but if i have spoken rightly, it will be because it is God who is right, so let Him be shown to be Truthful and every man a liar!

Grace and PEace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.

It seems we are all leaves blown about by the storms of our times...let's not kid ourselves and think that a few of us, even if we believe we are prophets, are outside of these winds looking in on everyone else. Even prophets can be carried aloft by the fearful passions of this dark hour. We may be loathe to admit it, but we Christians are still captialists, or marxists, or pacifists, or patriots, Americans or Africans. God help us, we are still humans and not angels...we are still human players, seperated by national and cultural perspectives upon the stage of history in a frightful hour.

Let's not further isolate ourselves into divided camps because of our eschatology. Am I the only one who is weary of the sting of constant denoucements of one another? Do prophets use terms like 'neo-con' and 'right-wing' and then wonder why the 'American Church" is offended? Sometimes it's not the cross that offends others, but our own worldy stains that we refuse to acknowledge.

My question is if we reach the hour of our nuclear purification, can we start being brothers again?

MC

i think it [the pre-trib rapture] is a false doctrine calculated to lull the Church into a false sense of security that we will escape fire which is how we are proven.

I agree, with the addition that it is too often a "holiness gimmick"; people are motivated to live upright lives because "who knows when you might get 'caught up'", rather than because of the plain commands and worthiness of God, and the putridness of sin. I speak on my own testimony, and of my friends who were similarly carried by the doctrine of Pre-Trib rapture.

I had no intention of preparing for mass-deceit on that level until I was Post-Trib.

My question is if we reach the hour of our nuclear purification, can we start being brothers again?

That's a stark statement, and one that I feel too. There are certain lines that even heavy trials have difficulty smearing - the tortures of the inquisition couldn't bring reformers to congregate with Anabaptists - but I see what you mean. Unity will come more into place when it's a matter of life or death. What will also take place in such dire conditions is the clarification of what the gospel is and is not, at the essentials. Right now it does not cost so much to disagree; then we will pay prettily and will want to know for certain what makes someone a "brother".

Chris,
Thank you for your thoughtful commentary, your opinions are so very much appreciated.
:-)

In His Love
pastorfrin

MC wrote:

My question is if we reach the hour of our nuclear purification, can we start being brothers again?

In light of the words of Christ, I would say very doubtful.

Matthew 10:17-22
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; [18] And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. [19] But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. [20] For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. [21] And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. [22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

I believe the term brother is soon to take on a whole new meaning.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The question then is, what is the will of the Father? Very important to be founded in the Word,
hey.

In His Love
pastorfrin

theopenlife wrote:

Right now it does not cost so much to disagree; then we will pay prettily and will want to know for certain what makes someone a "brother".

Amen, kind of makes one think, doesn't it?

Thanks for the thoughts, Brother.

In His Love
pastorfrin

bro Theopenlife
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

I agree, with the addition that it is too often a "holiness gimmick"; people are motivated to live upright lives because "who knows when you might get 'caught up'", rather than because of the plain commands and worthiness of God, and the putridness of sin. I speak on my own testimony, and of my friends who were similarly carried by the doctrine of Pre-Trib rapture.

yes indeed. the motivation for doing what's right ought to be simply because it is what God requires and we delight in doing it. i heard Fred Price one time talking against predestination using the argument that if he did everything right and got to the front of the line and was told "sorry, no room for you up here" it would be a travesty...i was like "are you nuts? we ought not to be in this for what we can gain, we ought to be in this because we're called." too many times our motivation is something other than what God requires.

may God right our motives.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Brothers and Sisters,
Back to the topic at hand.

Jesus Christ, An Offence To ‘Westernized Christianity’

I wonder if this could be the reason that Jesus Christ is An Offence To 'Westernized Christianity'?

because it is not Christianity at all.
Check it out, after you get mad, pray and seek our Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient and it is time we believe such.

http://www.yesumulungi.com/Commentary/Comment72.htm

In His Love
pastorfrin

I've read his interpretations. Now I'll see if he's right. (Though if he's right, living in Southern California doesn't suggest I'd see much for long, besides a white flash.)

Hi pastorfrin…

I hesitated to return to this topic, but I would like to share my feelings in this. Please don’t think that I am “following you” around or disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. This is an interesting topic, and it merits a sincere discussion.

Jesus Christ, An Offence To ‘Westernized Christianity’

I wonder if this could be the reason that Jesus Christ is An Offence To 'Westernized Christianity'?

because it is not Christianity at all.
Check it out, after you get mad, pray and seek our Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient and it is time we believe such.

http://www.yesumulungi.com/Commentary/Comment72.htm

Moreover, your link points to Brother Kato’s website, which includes the following “prophecy:”

[b]Rise of Persia-Iran is Judgment to Babylon-USA[/b]
Prophetic Warning and Commentary
By Kato Mivule
February 4th 2007

•\tRise of Persia-Iran is for America's Judgment...
•\tAmerica is jeering up for War with Iran...
•\tYes, World War Three is at hand...
•\tAmerica will be destroyed in this war...
•\tIran will attack Israel in the Gog Magog War Ezekiel 38,39...
•\tAmerica will be destroyed by Iran...
•\tIran will be destroyed in this Battle...
•\tGog and Magog will not win this Battle...
•\tThe Lord God will defend Israel without America's Help...
•\tThe Days of America are numbered...
•\tThis Gog Magog war will involve Russia and China...
•\tThis war will involve Nuclear weapons...
•\tThis war will NOT be the end of the world...
•\tThis war will be 'The Beginning of Sorrows'...
•\tThe Rapture won't take place before or after this war...
•\tThe Tribulation will begin after this war...
•\tThe antichrist will arise out of this global chaos...
•\tThe Rapture will take place after the Tribulation of those days...

[b]USA moving world towards World War III [/b]
Much of the news today is filled with the United States moving its war machinery to the Persian Gulf in its plan to engage Iran which it accuses of supporting rebel militias in Iraq.

However, the situation should warrant all serious Christians to watch and keep up with what is going on in the Middle East. The events in this region do not substantiate an expansion of the US Empire but otherwise its demise.

The US is moving the world towards a nuclear holocaust and a Gog Magog war that will claim millions of lives. However, it is imperative that Christians realise that this coming war will not be the end of the world but the ‘Begging of Sorrows’ as Jesus Christ spoke about it in Matthew 24.

[i]Matthew 24:6-8
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.[/i]

We are getting into a time that very severe alterations are coming as pertains to the current world lifestyles. The adjustments are going to be so severe that current world systems will fail and therefore need for new systems. It is in this light that the rebellious anti God and antichrist systems are going to be ushered in.

In addition, I disagree with the author’s premise that America is the “world’s only empire.” He claims:

” We are witnessing the demise of the world's only empire-USA
What we are witnessing is the transition from current world system to the New World Order. We are witnessing the demise of one world empire – The USA and the rise of another one world empire – One World Government – Antichrist System. Certainly the coming Middle East war will be a climax of the clash of the West and Islamic civilizations that has already begun.

Make no mistake about it, the Iran US war will usher in great sorrows. This coming war will not go as planned by the Americans but it will go as planned by The Lord God of Heaven and Earth. The implications here are great. It means that we are seeing Bible prophesy being fulfilled before our eyes…that is if you live through this coming Nuclear Holocaust in the Middle East.

No Turning Back from Doom's Day...
There is no turning back from this point onwards. I say this for two reasons. One is that Israel will NOT coexist with a nuclear-armed Iran that has made its intentions to ‘wipe Israel of the world map’.

Secondly, the US and pursuit for more Oil treasures as she continues her conquest of more middle east territories and expand her empire. The USA's foreign policy is driven by greed for more oil and this is what is causing all the wars around the world currently. Iran has large oil deposits and the USA out of greed seeks to control them. Did the Bible not say that the root of ALL Evil is love for money? America's Capitalistic egos are leading her to death! Her salivating for the control of Oil deposits in the Middle East is surely what is going to kill her. “

The topic of New Testament prophecy and Bible prophecy is a touchy subject. There are so many persuasions about the meaning of such Scripture. Jesus never told us that we would understand the exact time-table of His coming. In fact, not even the Son of God knows this timing (Matthew 24:36 -- which would be peculiar, in the case of a 3 ½ or 7 year tribulation and SUBSEQUENT rapture). However, the situation should warrant all serious Christians to watch and pray. I feel that we should keep our eyes on Christ WHILE and DESPITE what is going on in the Middle East. We should remember that “[i]To live is Christ and to die is gain[/i]” (Philippians 1:21). If the End is delayed, then praise the Lord for more time to seek Him in our Earthly dwelling while introducing Christ to others. If the End comes, then even better!

I wonder if this could be the reason that Jesus Christ is An Offence To 'Westernized Christianity'?

because it is not Christianity at all.
Check it out, after you get mad, pray and seek our Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient and it is time we believe such.

;-)

I certainly won’t get mad; but I will still pray and seek our Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is certainly sufficient!

:-)

Chris,

Hey Brother, I believe you are absolutely right, there is no way Iran could destroy Babylon in the natural. One question though, is it actually Iran who destroys Babylon
or is it the Lord?
I do believe it is the Lord and with Him, ‘ALL’ things are possible.
Might want to watch, just in case, maybe even get our house in order, like maybe get our eyes off the things of this world and on the Lord Jesus Christ; or we could dismiss it all and go on our merry ways.
Luke 12:19-21
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. [20] But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? [21] So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Maybe this is actually the issue at hand, you know Babylon and all.

:-)

In His Love
pastorfrin

What is the "Bible colleges and intellectualism of christianity" doctrine?

Chris, just thought I'd throw this in for balance...

The very same Ephraem also wrote the opposite:

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I)."

As well, Pseudo-Ephraem (believed 4th century) wrote: "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [Antichrist]..." (On the Last Times, the Antichrist etc., 2).

It is believed that either he oscillated because of earlier confusion, or his previous statement must be interpreted in light of his other statements. Perhaps he thought that the church would be unified from its schisms before the Antichrist come?

Either way, the age of an heresy makes it the more wrinkled, but no less heresy. Call Pre-Trib a "classic", but I believe the scriptures are emphatic enough. Have you read Eli Brayleys posts about the subject? They helped inform me, and they are at his timothyministries blog.

Hi theopenlife...

It is believed that either he oscillated because of earlier confusion, or his previous statement must be interpreted in light of his other statements. Perhaps he thought that the church would be unified from its schisms before the Antichrist come?

What harm is there in a persuasion toward a pre-trib rapture if there is an acute awareness that it is merely a possibility? Are we so bold as to label it a "false doctrine?" It is my belief that neither "pre-trib" OR "post-trib" should even be a DOCTRINE. They are merely possibilities concerning the End Times. I feel that all believers should at least be AWARE of the various beliefs -- without the fingers pointed by would-be "experts" or "prophets" of an opposing belief willing to publicly call an alternate theory a "LIE."

Thus, I am [u]neither[/u] pre-trib or post-trib. I feel that I am very well read on the issue (including both pre-trib and post-trib thoughts). I just don't know with enough certainty to stake a final conclusion. I suspect that our brother Kato (or anyone else) does not know with enough complete certainty to stake such a claim either. I certainly don't feel that there is enough evidence to turn either belief into a mandatory "doctrine" of the Church. So what if a person is not completely convinced one way or the other? The important thing is that a believer maintains an intimate relationship with Christ. They should be willing to serve Him through the persecutions of this world, and if need be, the wrath of God upon this world.

What does that mean for Kato's "prophecy" as voiced on his webpage (using the link provided by Brother pastorfrin)? He claims that Iran will be the vessel used to destroy "heathen" America. Some of the same "prophets" (not referring to Brother Kato) were pointing the same prophetic finger at Iraq (instead of Iran) both five and 17 years ago (just before both Iraq wars). With all of America's vices, I have never believed that it is the most sinful nation on the Earth. There are many wonderful believers in this nation. No one could honestly deny the influence of Protestant Christianity upon our nation. When compared to pagan nations like China, Japan, India, Muslim nations and Communist nations -- America is a land (for better or for worse) of liberty. A couple of years ago, would-be prophets were declaring that Hurricane Katrina was a judgment of God upon sinful New Orleans. It could have been. But I would wonder why God chose to judge New Orleans over San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, Los Vegas, Amsterdam, Pyongyang, Paris, Beijing, Tokyo, New Delhi, Khartoum, or Tehran? I suppose that there is a great deal of hypocrisy in America, because we have inherited the truth yet some have preferred lasciviousness. However, our sinfulness is not nearly as publicly accepted as what is found in many other western or pagan countries. Gross immorality is "normal" and completely legal in some cities. Christianity is still persecuted and largely prohibited around the globe! And God chose to pour out "judgment" upon New Orleans -- sadly resulting in the death of the poor residents instead of the sinful or immoral? It just didn't make sense then, and I'm not quite so sure that it makes sense now.

I understand the analogy of America and Babylon as recorded in Revelation 17. It does [u]seem[/u] to be indicative of America (at least in the context of our time). However, this is not completely certain. In the past, some have pointed to specific cities (like New York or Rome). It has been used to refer to Empires (like Rome, Britain or the Roman Catholic Church). I have even read writings that articulated a belief that the Babylon was indicative of the Arab world. The point is that we cannot be conclusively certain about the meaning of this passage. We can only be persuaded as to its possible meaning.

Yet the "prophets" continue to "prophesy." I suppose that there is a danger of becoming like one of the townspeople in Aesop's [i]The Boy Who Cried Wolf[/i]. For every false prophesy or loud proclamation that never comes to pass, some people might become less receptive to the voice of a true prophet. I suppose the safe thing is, as pastorfrin says, consider the information. We shouldn't have to "get our house in order" because of the fear of the future. Our house should ALWAYS be in order. We should always be prepared for the End and "[i]Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your LORD doth come[/i]" (Matthew 24:42). The key, I suppose, is to WATCH, PRAY and BE READY.

As far as the prophecy uttered by Brother Kato, I really don't know what to think. I disagree with some of his assertions about the motives of the United States regarding operations in Iraq. His subtle implications between these "words of warning" do strike me of yet another [i]conspiracy theory[/i]. But I will not worry. Who cares WHEN and HOW the end will come? We just need to know that it is coming. I will continue to make seeking and fellowshipping with Christ my number one objective for life. As we watch with longing and homesick anticipation for our groom, why should we fear about what happens between now and his arrival?

:-)

pastorfrin wrote:

Maybe this is actually the issue at hand, you know Babylon and all.

The issue I was pointing to is this; Babylon, if the US is Babylon, then it would make perfect sense that Jesus Christ is and will continue to be, An Offence to ‘Westernized Christianity’.

Many ‘Christians’ in the US have this attitude:

Luke 12:19-21
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. [20] But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? [21] So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Thus the statement: “Might want to watch, just in case, maybe even get our house in order, like maybe get our eyes off the things of this world and on the Lord Jesus Christ; or we could dismiss it all and go on our merry ways.”

The sad and very real fact is that many will ignore the signs Jesus told us to watch for, and go on their merry ways, all the way to perdition.

Yes our house should always be in order, is yours?
Yes we should always be watching and ready, are you?

Some are not, and that is why we are to sound the trumpet.

In His Love
pastorfrin

BRO Chris
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

What harm is there in a persuasion toward a pre-trib rapture if there is an acute awareness that it is merely a possibility? Are we so bold as to label it a "false doctrine?" It is my belief that neither "pre-trib" OR "post-trib" should even be a DOCTRINE. They are merely possibilities concerning the End Times. I feel that all believers should at least be AWARE of the various beliefs -- without the fingers pointed by would-be "experts" or "prophets" of an opposing belief willing to publicly call an alternate theory a "LIE."

the problem with thinking that the rapture is pre-trib as a possibility is that if one leans that way and is wrong, one could be in for some serious hurdles to get over. Bless God though that His Grace is sufficient for those He has called to Himself.AMEN. to the last point i say, if those who are calling alternate theories lies are wrong, then they are wrong, however if they are right, then indeed God has spoken and so by default anything aside from what God has spoken is a lie, end of story. God will Himself prove His word to be Truth and by so doing, those He sent with it will be vindicated.

Thus, I am neither pre-trib or post-trib. I feel that I am very well read on the issue (including both pre-trib and post-trib thoughts). I just don't know with enough certainty to stake a final conclusion. I suspect that our brother Kato (or anyone else) does not know with enough complete certainty to stake such a claim either. I certainly don't feel that there is enough evidence to turn either belief into a mandatory "doctrine" of the Church. So what if a person is not completely convinced one way or the other? The important thing is that a believer maintains an intimate relationship with Christ. They should be willing to serve Him through the persecutions of this world, and if need be, the wrath of God upon this world.

if you are like you said at the end of this portion of your post prepared to serve Him no matter what, then it's all good. At the end of the day for the true believer, God's Grace is sufficient for us to endure whatever must be endured, however the persecution will shake of the fakers. The True Saints will have Christ shining through them. i am convinced the rapture is post trib and as such believe any alternative to be lie which lulls the saints into a false sense of security and unpreparedness for the trial by fire which will come our way. a lot of people in dissilousionment will jump ship because such is not what they signed up for. to me the word is plain on this. if i have misread it, then our Lord will surely make it plain and set me straight. my concern isn't so much that people believe as i do, but rather that we as saints be prepared to follow our Lord no matter what be it tribulation or not because that's really the bottom line.

What does that mean for Kato's "prophecy" as voiced on his webpage (using the link provided by Brother pastorfrin)? He claims that Iran will be the vessel used to destroy "heathen" America. Some of the same "prophets" (not referring to Brother Kato) were pointing the same prophetic finger at Iraq (instead of Iran) both five and 17 years ago (just before both Iraq wars).

well i believe that we don't need any nation from outside to destroy us, we've set that up ourselves through poor policies, fiscally, corruption and so on but it wouldn't be beyond believe that God would raise up a nation such as Iran to that end. People have said this war has been about oil, one of the arguments i heard, and it makes sense to me, perhaps bro Chris you can shed some light on this since you're doing a Ph.D on this sort of thing, is that the idea in going into Iraq for oil isn't for dropping prices of gas right now, but rather to secure a source for the long run as China expands and sucks up more oil. Eventually there won't be enough to supply our need and theirs and this could precipitate a conflict. i don't think that would be a good thing but what do you think of that argument. by the way i'm not really concerned about all this from any other perspective outside of what is God doing here?

With all of America's vices, I have never believed that it is the most sinful nation on the Earth. There are many wonderful believers in this nation.

that's a good point bro Chris, but we could argue the same for Israel, yet Babylon, Assyria, Greece and Rome overran her...The Babylonians and Assyrians were wicked people and yet those very heathen nations are the ones which God used as the rod of chatizement... but i think the fact that we are a nation with the majprity of us being believers, makes it really bad...Israel was probably not as wicked/corrupt as Babylon, Assyria or Rome but the fact that she knew God and didn't do the right thing is what hacked God off to the point of destroying her.in fact we can say we know for sure Israel wasn't as wicked as those nations because they were heathens. Fast forward to us at this time, it's not about America being "not as bad as others like China" but that in America we know God but don't act like it, that makes God angry because it gives the heathen occasion to blaspheme His Name and God doesn't like that

i am reminded of this parable which Jesus spoke in Luke 12:

[b]37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut F33 him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[/b]

...but like with Israel, that there were believers among them just as there are in America today, God will not utterly destroy us but put us in a place where those He has called to Himself will indeed cleave to Him like never before. for those nations which have not liberty as we do here, Christians there tend to hold more tightly to God because there is nothing else. We have liberty but in some respects we lack the fervor of those who don't have it. We have been given much and i feel much more is required of us than what we have done/are doing.

With all of America's vices, I have never believed that it is the most sinful nation on the Earth. There are many wonderful believers in this nation. No one could honestly deny the influence of Protestant Christianity upon our nation. When compared to pagan nations like China, Japan, India, Muslim nations and Communist nations -- America is a land (for better or for worse) of liberty.

i see how you could conclude as you did bro, but again it's not about comparison to other nations, but rather to God's Standard because we know what is expected of us. We know what is right and yet we do it not so we shall be spanked with many stripes. there are many believers here but we have failed to affect the nation by being salt and light. the darkness can't overcome the light unless the light goes out...the pagan nations are expected to be wicked, but that nation which calls the Lord it's God ought to know better...that's the beef God has.

A couple of years ago, would-be prophets were declaring that Hurricane Katrina was a judgment of God upon sinful New Orleans. It could have been. But I would wonder why God chose to judge New Orleans over San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, Los Vegas, Amsterdam, Pyongyang, Paris, Beijing, Tokyo, New Delhi, Khartoum, or Tehran?

why wouldn't God hammer N.O? in S.F. the crowd there is for the most part pretty wayward...it's legendary so that is expected and who is to say that God will not yet pour out Judgment on S.F. or the other cities you mentioned? at the end of the day, He strikes down on His own schedule which may not have a pattern which we can discern but all the same, it's on His time. Tehran doesn't know the gospel (she will be judged too) but D.C. does...if God does like He did with Israel by using the heathen as His rod, what will we say then?if the enemy is behind it, was God unaware? we know the answer to that so the next one is why didn't God do anything? the thing i feel we don't understand is God's Role as Judge, that's why we can't swallow Rita and Katrina as Judgment from Him. if they weren't, we can continue on as before, but if they were, then we need to repent. it's easy to say that it's not God, we can chill after that like nothing happened, but to consider that it is Him requires repentance and that's work and we're not so open to that...we tend to write many things off as not being of God, perhaps we could consider a bit more often that they may well be, especially if the end result is genuine repentance because that can only be achieved by God manifesting Himself in a way which prompts us to do so.

Gross immorality is "normal" and completely legal in some cities. Christianity is still persecuted and largely prohibited around the globe! And God chose to pour out "judgment" upon New Orleans -- sadly resulting in the death of the poor residents instead of the sinful or immoral? It just didn't make sense then, and I'm not quite so sure that it makes sense now.

bro i hope you understand that God boggles our minds...for example, why would God use Abraham rather than an able bodied man to bring in the line which would lead to Jesus?Why would allow Him to die on the cross? i would say if God spared not His Son, He will not take kindly to those of us who know of the Gravity of that Sacrifice and esteem it lightly...

i think as His creatures we have this concept of what we would do if we were Him and this sometimes blurrs our vision of what He is doing. why did He hit N.O. and spare other cities? why does it matter, who are we? our Job is to repent and to be circumspect in our walks with Him...when you're maker of all, you get to do whatever you want and i believe it's His Divine prerogative to bless as He will and smite as He will also. my question isn't why anymore, my concern is what would you have me do?The other cities will get theirs in time...but that's not our concern, ours is what would God have us to do.

so i guess it may not make sense to you but to me it does, it's God's prerogative, He does as He pleases and once He has acted, that's it.

I understand the analogy of America and Babylon as recorded in Revelation 17. It does seem to be indicative of America (at least in the context of our time). However, this is not completely certain. In the past, some have pointed to specific cities (like New York or Rome). It has been used to refer to Empires (like Rome, Britain or the Roman Catholic Church). I have even read writings that articulated a belief that the Babylon was indicative of the Arab world. The point is that we cannot be conclusively certain about the meaning of this passage. We can only be persuaded as to its possible meaning.

i believe that Babylon's meaning is dual, that is symbolic of everything which is in opposition to God's own City, Jerusalem, and secondly the place which serves as the headquarters for such wickedness. America has indeed exported a lot of filth into the world but i think we have yet to see the sort of centralization of wickedness which says "i am Babylon" it could be that the ancient city of Babylon may be rebuilt or it could be Rome but when Babylon presents herself, all speculation will stop...we aint's seen her just yet.

Yet the "prophets" continue to "prophesy." I suppose that there is a danger of becoming like one of the townspeople in Aesop's The Boy Who Cried Wolf. For every false prophesy or loud proclamation that never comes to pass, some people might become less receptive to the voice of a true prophet. I suppose the safe thing is, as pastorfrin says, consider the information. We shouldn't have to "get our house in order" because of the fear of the future. Our house should ALWAYS be in order. We should always be prepared for the End and "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your LORD doth come" (Matthew 24:42). The key, I suppose, is to WATCH, PRAY and BE READY.

bro Chris, what you said at the end sums it up. that was well worded bro, our house always should be in order...

As far as the prophecy uttered by Brother Kato, I really don't know what to think. I disagree with some of his assertions about the motives of the United States regarding operations in Iraq. His subtle implications between these "words of warning" do strike me of yet another conspiracy theory. But I will not worry. Who cares WHEN and HOW the end will come? We just need to know that it is coming. I will continue to make seeking and fellowshipping with Christ my number one objective for life. As we watch with longing and homesick anticipation for our groom, why should we fear about what happens between now and his arrival?

as far as conspiracy theories go, i always say, it aint a good conspiracy if people can figure it out...the less plausible that it's a conspiracy, the better, then the people will be easily led astray unsuspectingly. if i were the government and wanted to do something i suspected the people wouldn't agree with, i'd present it a such a manner as to dupe everyone...that is lie about it. no government wants the people to know all their business or why they do what they do, that could lead to chaos. i'm not insinuating that this is what happened with Iraq, but saying that if this is what happened, i wouldn't be surprised. really it doesn't matter what machinations went on behind the scenes, whether you think this war is about freedom and virtue or lies and oil, God's Plan marches on and the real deal is, how does this fit into what God is going and what should our response be?

our Lord is drawing nigh so let us be prepared and not be found napping or abusing His servants.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.