"Wow, Mommy, God is mean!"

My assistant told me the other day, that as she was reading the story of Adam and Eve to her little boy, he proclaimed, "Wow, Mommy, God is mean!"
so she quickly told him that Jesus loves Him and is always with him, and he doesn't need to be afraid of God.

What hit me was that it seems that is what we are doing now days in our churches....
Instead of telling the Truth behind Purposeful yet Loving Discipline of Almighty God; we are quick to pacify people with the assurance of His Love.

Please, do not misunderstand me...the realization of His Love, and Grace and His Mercy and Faithfulness is Oxygen to me...
However,
the opportunity for that child to hear the Truth in its fullness, was missed, when it was brushed over.

Sadly, I believe the Truth that sets us free, is being withheld today.

I will second that, AMEN

The Spirit of Truth has been locked out of many
places, while fleshly desires and emotions take His place.

It is time for those who truely believe, to speak the truth and demand that the truth be spoken.

If we don't, who will?

In His Love
pastorfrin

I would be interested in hearing your response to the little boy's comment, supposing he were your little boy. Mind you we're probably talking about a 5 year old or so.

In Christ,

Ron

I would be interested in hearing your response to the little boy's comment, supposing he were your little boy. Mind you we're probably talking about a 5 year old or so.

I can recall of a similar situation where a four year old child had gone to stay with their grandmother for a while. This grandmother had allowed the child to watch bad cartoons and had given the child virtually what ever they wanted and never disciplined the child. When the child came back home to a structured and disciplined environment, the child decried to his father when they were disciplined (not even a spanking, just a boundary issue where the child was told, NO!), "You are MEAN, dad!"

As a small child I read and was told the story of Adam and Eve and never thought of God as 'mean'. I thought that Adam and Eve had been a 'bad boy' and 'bad girl' and were being punished. I viewed it totally as their fault. God was doing what He said He would do.

And I think this may be part of the issue in our times. I'm reminded of Solomon's words, [i]Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.[/i](Eccl. 8:11) Because God does not immediately punish every delinquency, men think he disregards evil acts; and therefore they are emboldened to sin on. So this longsuffering of God, which leadeth to repentance, is abused so as to lead to farther crimes! When men sin against the remedy of their salvation, how can they escape perdition? (Adam Clarke)

supposing he were your little boy.

Okay, I'll take you up on your question. Actually, I plan to present the Adam and Eve account next Sunday for the children's message - to accompany my sermon, which refers to the "dividing wall of hostility" from Eph. 2:16 . The point: We need to be restored to God, and he has made a way.

I think children can understand the concept of sin's consequences better than we realize - and they can see it portrayed in the Adam and Eve account.

Something like this:

Children's Meditation:

Have you ever done something you knew your mom or dad wouldn’t want you to do – let's say you take some money off your mom's dresser to buy some candy? The candy was, oh, so good. But later, what might happen between you and your mom? Would you feel distanced from her – not so close like before? Maybe you want to stay away from her and spend a lot of time in your room. Maybe you want to blame your sister. Would it seem like there was an invisible wall between you and your mom?

And then, later let's say, you go to her and admit you took the money, and you know it was wrong to do that. You might want to give her some money from your piggy bank. Then let's say she says, “Thank you for being honest and admitting your wrong. I forgive you!”

And then, how do you feel? Close again? Maybe you hug each other. And you can enjoy the love of your parents again. The invisible wall is gone.

There is a story in the Bible about an invisible wall. Adam and Eve, the first people God made, walked and talked with God in a beautiful garden. They were very close to God. It was wonderful.
Then they did something that God had told them not to do.

And do you know what happened after that? …… When God came to enjoy their company, like he had always done before, they ran away from him and hid behind some bushes. They didn’t want God to be close to them anymore because they knew they had done wrong. There was suddenly an invisible wall between them and God.

And since then there has been an invisible wall between people and God because all have done wrong and God is holy..... .

But there is good news! Many years later Jesus came to take that wall away, so we can be brought close to God again and to each other. .........

Hopefully that does not portray either a cruel God or a permissive God.

(the fact that God allowed Adam and Eve to live, to me, is totally amazing - his love, for sure!)

PS I use "Mom" because there are some single parent homes.

Diane

I think this may be part of the issue in our times

This is something to consider here. One possibility is that the young child's reaction isn't so much a theological protest as much as a sociolgical symptom. Even Christian children can be more shaped by the Disney Channel and Nickolodean then perhaps their parents care to admit. In contemporary children's culture, authority figures, such as parents and teachers, are depicted as lovable but hapless rubes who are usually two or three steps behind the clever and self-willed children. The thought that an authority figure would be more wise then a child is by itself an unfamiliar concept...let alone an authority figure who would hold their feet to the fire.

Just my thoughts,

MC

So true, Pastorfrin...as I heard quoted a couple of years ago by Randy Phillips of Phillips Craig and Dean. "Church is about God NOT about us"...
and
unfortunately that is what we see so much now...what's in it for us...how can "We" improve? and have a better life...

and by pushing the message to appease us, Truth is knocked out.

It IS up to us...when we have our confidence in God and our Hope in Christ and the Power of the Holy Spirit within us, we should not hesitate to speak the Truth in love and authority!

Ron:
Well, I have been there before... I raised four children...and I spoke to them about God thru out the day and interjected the Word to them into our entire life/activities...so they grew up knowing His Heart toward us in all that we do.

I would have said to this little boy (7 yrs old), just what I used to tell my children, and now my grandchildren:
"God is a loving God...and because He loves us so much He wants to protect us..."
I would explain about Good and Evil that is in the world...etc.

"God has set up boundaries, and guidelines, just as Mommy and Daddy have.
Do I let you run into the street, Michael?"
"no"
"Why do you suppose that is?"
"Cuz a car could smash me into the pavement" (something like that ~ hee hee)

"yes, I want to protect you from what is harmful and dangerous...God is the same way...yet He is so wise He knows what is harmful even more than we do...so He has guidelines....."

"But God sounds mean Mommy"
"Oh, Michael, how can it be mean when He is actually saving you from becoming hurt, or even lose your life?...
No, He is not mean, but He is serious about teaching us what is right and wrong, and must discipline and correct us in ways that will make us not ever feel comfortable doing the wrong thing again."

something to that effect....I would stress that discipline, punishment and correction, is an act of Love...NOT meanness or anger.

Wow, Mommy, God is mean!

I would be curious to know what the child actually heard that triggered this comment. Did he mis-hear something? I am asking because, from my understanding of children, they are eager for the guilty party to get a just consequence. They are obsessed with fairness.
I wonder if the mom asked him, ‘Son, what would you consider to be fair?”

Surely, the child would not have said, “Let them get away with it.”
If he did, I’d be a pretty concerned mom.

Or maybe the child did not understand the real implications of the sin. It wasn't simply about stealing an apple, after all. I wonder if the mother herself really understood this. If she didn't then how could she portray it to the child?

Diane

That is a terrific Meditation for children, Diane...well balanced!

And yes, as RobertW said, I agree too...when I heard the story of Adam and Eve I never thot of it as a mark against God...it was all Adam and Eve's doing.

I think that is why when my asst. said that, it jolted my attention.

There was nothing evil in wanting to know more or to have wisdom, the evil was disobeying God's word.

Just my thoughts…….

Diane

Good question Diane...I am going to ask her when I see her again...because that went thru my mind when she told me...

we were excruciatingly busy, and she told me that little scenerio as I was walking away and it hit me like a blow to my brain, because it seemed foreign to me... I have not heard that response before...

Immediately upon hearing that as I was leaving I thought..."That is why it is so difficult for many pastors to be straightforward to their congregations..they fear that the Truth of God's opposition and hatred of wrong doing, will make people think He is mean...

Therefore Truth is not proclaimed, and people walk around artificially cushioned...Lulled to sleep, deceived and in severely grave danger of spiritual death!

Excellent Point, Compliments!

...the evil was not the Tree, that was set there by God...but it was in disobeying God's Word. That brings it down to such simple understanding reality...why do we seem to miss that?

they fear that the Truth of God's opposition and hatred of wrong doing, will make people think He is mean...

How can we understand redemption if we don't understand sin?

Diane

RobertW...
sooo many times I have brot Eccl 8:11 before God and cried out for understanding to this...but in the end, each time I am assured that He is a Just God.

Compton wrote:
The thought that an authority figure would be more wise then a child is by itself an unfamiliar concept...let alone an authority figure who would hold their feet to the fire.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SO TRUE, COMPTON...
KIDS SHOWS TODAY ARE LOADED WITH DISRESPECT TOWARD PARENTS, TEACHERS, ALL AUTHORITY FIGURES....EVEN WHEN THEY TRY TO DISCIPLINE, THEY END UP LOOKING SPINELESS, AND YOU HEAR THE TV AUDIENCE ROAR WITH LAUGHTER...

I stand corrected...sin IS far more than "doing wrong"...
My mother talked about Sin straight out and I tell you, I feared disobeying her, and disobeying God...it definetly hit me square on.
The envisioning of suffering in a lake of fire made me take notice of what I was doing.

I also raised my children with a direct hit on the meaning of "sin" and God's No Compromise and hatred of it...
I have however, also balanced that teaching with God's Grace, Mercy and Love.
Balance is the key here...because unfortunately the extreme of the Sin and Hell caused me to see that if I did not behave perfectly, I was not accepted or loved.

I was totally convinced, until 14 years ago, that God did NOT love me...He was a God of love, for others, but not me. I can't explain how completely convinced I was.

On my own, I tried to hold up under pressure, and persecution, mistreatment etc...and after a couple of decades, I crumbled.

But in my heart I knew I loved Jesus...just felt horribly certain He did not love me.

Then one blessed evening, during worship, as tears rolled down my face He spoke Words of Life into my spirit, and I met Grace, for the first time. Never knew really in my heart, what Grace was til that moment. And I have been set free.

Now, what keeps me from potential sin, is my absolute Love for my God and my Savior...I don't want to sin, because I don't want to grieve the Holy Spirit.
It is not "hell" that I fear, it is sensing His Spirit's Presence fade in distinction ....

I obey Him and I serve Him, because He loved me before I ever loved Him, which causes me to love and adore Him, for His Faithfulness.
And I "revere" Him, for His Almightiness

That is why I say that balance in teaching is essential!

RobertW...sooo many times I have brot Eccl 8:11 before God and cried out for understanding to this...but in the end, each time I am assured that He is a Just God.

Truly it is the great challenge of Christian parenthood. Should I show mercy or should I not? When the child acts out should I swiftly bring discipline or should I be long suffering? There are few things that bring out the true heart and character of a person like showing mercy. I have seen it as a father and an administrator.

And I think the great fear is that we want to show mercy, but don't want the negative results of that mercy to manifest. There is a side of me that believes that young employees can be ruined by allowing them another chance when they miss work or are late or are loafing. Yet, this seems to me to be the Christlike thing to do- to be long-suffering. But in the attempt there is (at least for me) this nagging feeling that the person does not need mercy, they desperately need to be fired and shocked back into reality.

In the original post there was a view that God is 'MEAN'. I think fear of God being presented as 'mean' causes churches not to practice true church discipline. People are allowed to keep sinning in our midst and need to be confronted- but there is that constant desire to be longsuffering and merciful. It leaves me thinking that we need to stop worrying about God coming off as 'mean' when we follow the word or preach the word. We simply cannot allow the distorted view of love affect out responsibility to act when action needs to be taken.

But by no means am I there. I am forever embattled by testimonies of Christian dads that seemed to be able to rule their homes with an iron fist with the gentleness of a dove or a lamb. "I never saw my dad angry" was a testimony I recently read. That was the most amazing thing I ever heard in my life. I don't know of another man on earth that did not get angry sometimes and at some things. And then once dads are made 'nicey' 'nice' they get criticized because they can't control their teen aged sons or rebellious boys. It just seems to me that dads need to be dads and God needs to be God sometimes if they come off as 'mean' or not. Adam should heve been 'mean' to the serpent when he was trespassing in the Garden. To everything there is a season- and we need to know what time of year it is in our situation.

allowing them another chance when they miss work or are late or are loafing.

[OR]

they desperately need to be fired and shocked back into reality.

Are these the only two options:
1. placid permissiveness
2. the “big guns”?

Both, I feel are indications that the person in authority likely lacks authority and those under him know it. It reminds me of a teacher I knew who let kids get out of hand, and when it got real bad she stood on her desk and blew a whistle and screamed. The kids all knew how far they could push her.

What about authority portrayed in the calm caring police officer who can hand you a speeding ticket without the need to shout, get angry, or hand cuff you (to prove his authority).

Why do so many view God as having two switches: 1. placid “love” or 2. mean vengeance? Does God need to be angry to correct us? Or is that view a reflection of the parental style of using anger to intimidate the misbehaving child into obedience and in that way to assert ‘authority” (which is not authority at all)

Diane

RobertW....

Sensitivity to the Holy Spirit is our only hope in each circumstance...

Yes we need not concern ourselves if God is coming across as "mean" just by speaking the Truth...We need to speak Truth, PERIOD.
But we are to speak the Truth in Love.

I had to confront a woman the other day, who is training to be an assistant for me. She is a strong go-getter take charge person, and she prides herself in that characteristic.

I addressed this head on, in the most calm and gentle manner possible...but I left no room for her to argue...
She is a very strong personality, and I am more mild and quiet...but when it comes to Truth and what is to be done, I don't compromise...so she set her jaw and challenged me, and I remained unbelievably calm, but firm as firm could be. I never backed down,nor did I lose eye contact with her.

There was actually more strength coming out of my quiet determined leadership than in her loud, challenging opposing comments...and she eventually backed down.

I didn't demean her, I just spoke what needed to be said, in a respectful manner. I am observing her closely and will determine if she will be suitable for this position, or if she would be better set elsewhere...and for "her" sake, I will make the changes necessary if need be; and this will be a learning experience for her in the future.

We show kindness, in NOT compromising that which is right.

Great statement when you said, "Adam should have been 'mean' to the serpent when he trespassed in the the garden!"

This child’s response could probably have come from the mouth of many professing believers as well. Mostly because there is a wrong understanding of what God’s goodness is. We think something is good when it satisfies our desire, meets our need, makes us feel content. But God’s goodness is a higher and more excellent goodness.

It is similar to the goodness of a parent that makes a child spend an hour every evening practicing the piano because there lies within a talent that needs to be developed. Or making the child finish their homework before going out to play. It is a goodness that thinks more of future benefit than immediate desire.

This is my way of thinking of God’s goodness. He will deny us something that we desire, realizing that we do not have His knowledge of what it would do to us if we had it. His goodness is more concerned with our holiness than our immediate happiness and that sometimes (or many times) means withholding from us something we desire.

Several years ago I had a position in my church that gave me many opportunities that I would not have otherwise have had. Due to a change in leadership, someone else was given this position. I was absolutely devastated. But as I watched events unfold, I began to see it as the kindness of God to have been removed. At the time I would have never guessed it was His goodness. That event changed my perspective on His goodness forever.

Danielle

Danielle:
That is how her comment struck me. I immediately thought, is that the understanding now amongst people...and the reason Pastors are afraid to speak straight and clear about sin?

B.

Some very good thoughts expressed here in this thread. I agree with what others have pointed out, the little boy's comment itself is troublesome and indicative of the culture in which we live. What can we expect when our society expresses a contempt for authority and a presupposition that man is essentially good at heart?

Diane, I enjoyed your example of what to share with the child. In fact, if you don't mind, I may take up your illustration and run with it at a Children's Ministry class that I will be teaching shortly.

In thinking about this matter I have come to believe that we really need some good ministry in the churches to equip parents to raise up disciples in their homes. There is too much of an attitude of letting the Children's Ministry people at church do the discipling. We need to take full advantage of every teachable moment in our homes.

May God fill our hearts with His burden for all children and grant us grace to be faithful stewards as parents.

In Christ,

Ron

Are these the only two options:
1. placid permissiveness
2. the “big guns”?

You only need look at the longsuffering of God as it waited in the days of Noah or in Israel as God loved them to understand that human beings almost always misinterpret mercy and longsuffering and few see it for what it really is. The giant color pallet between placid permissiveness and the big guns has yielded the world that we now live in and the history we read about. The scriptures are loaded with account after account of the Holy Spirit dealing with the hearts of men in various situations and men have found a way to resist Him on every almost hand. This has allowed the world to deteriorate into what we see today- not because of God's goodness- but because the heart of man is desperately wicked.

[i]My Spirit will not always strive with man[/i] is a terrible passage to consider. Being sensitive to the Holy Spirit is key to God's will being done or at least His will being presented, but by no means does that sensitivity and presentation guarantee the person will respond rightly. In fact, often it will yield anything other than the desired result. Why? People are in rebellion. Men do not respond rightly to God in most cases. The road is still broad- not because God's method of mercy and goodness has failed; but because men's hearts are desperately wicked.

Keep in mind here we are talking about being 'nice'. I know of no situation where authority of any kind has been established by a 21st century definition of 'nice'. If obedience is the only objective of authority, one could cite God as having [i]no[/i] authority. The world is filled with disobedience- does this mean God is not in authority? Jesus could have weilded unparalleled authority in His time on earth, yet look at the vast numbers of rebels like the pharisees that dismissed that authority and later set up a whole system of rebellion (against that authority) known as Rabbinic Judaism.

Some day God will assert His full authority and every knee will bow and tongue will confess. This is no doubt why the law came before grace. God sought to establish His authority in the hearts of men through punishments for offenses (disobedience) and great manifestations of His glory and power. This had only a limited effect. The reality is- some people don't understand nice by any definition. They only understand [i]force[/i]. The problem is, that Christians are not always in a position to rise to the level of force required to bring about submission to authority. Christians cannot carry guns as police officers and don't have the whole government backing their actions. They cannot call fire down from Heaven. So what do you do? Many times you just have to tolerate rebellion.

We show kindness, in NOT compromising that which is right.

I'm enjoying this conversation as it is [i]real[/i] Christianity in the [i]real[/i] world. This is Christianity not in a monastary where everyone loves God, but in a world filled with challenges.

Certainly kindness and compassion must rule the day. This is normal Christianity. The challenge comes in dealing with folk that continue in rebellion. We speak the truth in love and in gentleness. We confront people in truth and in peace as much as possible. What is love to do when the goodness and kindness of expressing love has lost it's effectiveness and you watch a person headed for destruction and damnation? After exhausting all 'nice' options would it be sin to ask a person point blank, "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!?" "DO YOU NOT SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOUR LIFE!!?" or would that just be mean?

RobertW...

With the same, calm and firm attitude that I gave the instructions and guidelines to holding the position in my department, I will also remove her from that position if she is not complying or shows rebellion.

If I am thot to be mean, that is fine...I am not concerned about that. It will make it all the more clear to her that her attitude as she displays, is not tolerated.

Sounds harsh?
that is only because people are used to manipulating and getting their way...but I will do what I need to do, in a way that does not compromise policy and show disrespect.

Take that "no compromising the Truth" into the Church and in our witness to the world, where that needs to be, and people will scatter and complain...but SPEAK THE TRUTH anyway.

I am pretty quiet on my opinions about a lot of things...but when it comes to the Lord, the Word, things of God I have such a strength within me that rises up...because I view it as tho I am dealing with life and death situations...because it IS life and death.

I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for it is the Power of God unto Salvation...(Romans 1:16)

Sounds harsh?
that is only because people are used to manipulating and getting their way...but I will do what I need to do, in a way that does not compromise policy and show disrespect.

I understand. I suppose what I am driving at here, to cut to the chase, is that when things are life and death and heaven and hell- where do Christians draw the line in their tone and directness? Removing people from positions does not nearly get my dandruff up, but life and death issues tend to get me a little more excited. And also, maybe if someone had really told that person what was up, they may have straitened up and not gotten fired. ;-) I'm not saying I'm the one, I'm just wondering if someone needed to be.

would it be sin to ask a person point blank, "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!?" "DO YOU NOT SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOUR LIFE!!?" or would that just be mean?

Robert, I don’t believe this is mean at all! But it is likely fruitless. Just about everyone I know is “good” and to tell them otherwise merely presents myself as the one who needs correction. And I get a big speech from them explaining how I am wrong and have misunderstood. Besides feeling like a jerk after that, I realize that I have merely succeeded in reinforcing their self-delusion.

In my experience, people seem most ready to admit their fallenness when their life starts to hurt, and it isn’t working any longer. Then we can start talking seriously about spiritual matters. In the mean time…………… we go where GOD is working. And that keeps us plenty busy.

The reality is- some people don't understand nice by any definition. They only understand force. The problem is, that Christians are not always in a position to rise to the level of force required to bring about submission to authority. Christians cannot carry guns as police officers and don't have the whole government backing their actions. They cannot call fire down from Heaven. So what do you do? Many times you just have to tolerate rebellion.

If God intended us to change others by force, manipulation, or pleadings, he would have given us the “equipment”. Early Christians in the Roman Empire were not in positions of authority and influence. They were nobodies – and yet, they turned the world upside down for Christ.

Are we missing something?

Diane

Diane, I enjoyed your example of what to share with the child. In fact, if you don't mind, I may take up your illustration and run with it at a Children's Ministry class that I will be teaching shortly.

Diane

Just a side comment :-)

I have found th ehardest thological questions and medtiations dont come from calvinism vs arminianism or similar "debates"

It comes from children's questions.... :-)

I think it is good for ALL of us to once in a wile be dumbfounded by a little childs questions.... all "our knowledge" seems so little when I dont know if I should say yes or no to "dad....will there be snow in heaven?" or similar questions and comments....

just some thoughts of subject :-)

Christian

If God intended us to change others by force, manipulation, or pleadings, he would have given us the “equipment”. Early Christians in the Roman Empire were not in positions of authority and influence. They were nobodies – and yet, they turned the world upside down for Christ.

Are we missing something?

Yes. We are missing an unction powerful enough to smite a person dead when they lie to the Holy Ghost or smite them with blindness like Paul did Elymas the sorcerer (Acts 13:11). A person don't have to get loud when they are operating at a level like that. Great fear came upon people when these things happened. And yet, no doubt, someone had called Paul and Peter 'mean' for what happened.

I think the problem is simple. When God followed through with His word to Adam- it was viewed as 'mean'. He only did what He said would happen. You mentioned an abused wife. What happens when she finally follows through with leaving the man? Or what about when a parant follows through with kicking one of their kids from the house? How can a Christian be a Christian and finally have to withdraw mercy and let the gavel fall?

How can a Christian be a Christian and finally have to withdraw mercy and let the gavel fall?

And yet, no doubt, someone had called Paul and Peter 'mean' for what happened.

This makes me realize that without evidence of God’s authority in our lives and our ministry, we haven’t got a leg to stand on. That would be like Joe the construction worker trying to give out speeding tickets – without authority backing him up. (Now, THAT would be mean!) I suspect that far too many Christians are far too eager to go on a mission against sin when they aren’t conscience of their own shortcomings. Dangerous!

Could it be that without divine authority in the fight against evil, we actually put ourselves at risk – like the seven sons of Sceva who were attacked by the demon possessed man.

Yet, even then, this had a positive result:

”When this became know … they were ALL seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in honor. Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds…. (burned their scrolls) … In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.” Acts 19:17

We are missing an unction powerful enough to smite a person dead when they lie against the Spirit...

But murder is against the law...

Has any great revival leader ever possessed this power? Did Peter possess it himself? Or did God pass judgement on Ananias and Saphirra, in order to preserve the newly forming church?

Diane

Roadsign's: Quote:But murder is against the law...

Has any great revival leader ever possessed this power? Did Peter possess it himself? Or did God pass judgement on Ananias and Saphirra, in order to preserve the newly forming church?

I believe that the reason that Ananias and Sapphira were smitten dead is because God refused to leave off His people as He had done many times in the past. The pattern of scripture is that when there is sin in the camp- God rolls out. Sin is judged swiftly when God is [i]truly[/i] near. I don't believe we have seen a true Pentecost since Pentecost. If we had we had had 'Pentecost' results. In the Acts 5 ordeal, God had departed the Garden, He had left off Israel, He had been silent and away for 400 years. I suppose He just figured He was tired of being driven from His people (Ezekiel 8). As if God said, I'm not leaving this time- YOU (Ananias and Sapphira) are. And they did.

God, no doubt, smote them. Peter just knew it was coming. Paul on the other hand it's a little more difficult to tell. I suppose it is being sensitive to what God is ready to do and then acting on it. I do [u]not[/u] believe Paul possessed such power to be wielded at his own will. I do believe the NT Church had the working of the Spirit at a whole different level than what we have heard or read about.

The problem is that so many falsehoods and flakes have come down the pike that God can't hardly get His power in edgeways. People are ready to call something of the devil out of the starting gate. Just like in Jesus and Paul's day. The miraculous has always been around- even in Moses' day there was a showdown between God and the Egyptian sooth sayers. Even in the NT there were supernatural things happening of the demonic. But God's power always prevailed and drove those demons out.

Authority is established in the minds of men when a word or declaration is followed through with every single time and without hesitation. Hair trigger consequences bring great authority to a person. When ALL doubt is removed of getting by with something is achieved- great respect (reverence) is yielded. Mercy runs counter to this. No imagine how when Jesus gave commandments to the people they could take or leave what He said, but NEVER once did a demon take or leave what Jesus commanded. They had a heart of rebellion- but when God says jump- they may as well ask, "How high?" SO the enemy takes a different line. He knows that God will pull of with the proliferation of sin. The is the message behind the story of Baalim. If you cannot destroy the people- introduce sin so God will not fight for them. SO I guess what I am saying is, when God finally comes home again- folk may well think He is one MEAN GOd. Cause a lot of things that go on now will not be tolerated when God draws near.

I believe that the reason that Ananias and Sapphira were smitten dead is because God refused to leave off His people as He had done many times in the past. The pattern of scripture is that when there is sin in the camp- God rolls out. Sin is judged swiftly when God is truly near.

I take no exception with this except to ask under the New Covenant, this Ananias and Sapphira story is it the exception or the norm? The way the story is often presented would leave a person with the idea there is a plethora of such examples in the New Testament.

And if God truly does roll out, what then is left? How is this played out practically? Should God leave that is? I have asked often (to myself) what could a person do to actually be excluded from a local fellowship? Other than Minster’s being “fired”, I really cannot name any incidents of this taking place.

Confrontation is avoided at all costs, and might I say it has been at a great cost?

Has any great revival leader ever possessed this power?

Not like the NT era. But I do not believe it is a different working of the Spirit either. J. Vernon McGee once commented that he did not believe in all the miracles that he heard about ministers performing because they (those ministers) did not live close nough to God to be doing them. I think he may be on to something.

Imagine a person being healed of a serious physical problem by men (or women) of God that were ON THEIR WAY to the prayer meeting. Notice- not on the way home. Those men walked with God. When asked they said,

Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but [u]such as I have[/u] give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.(Acts 3:6)

Pater had something that we do not have. I'm thinking now of Mark 16:17, 18:

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

It seems to me, that if the Church must to this day carry the weight of Mark 16:15, then they also ought to walk in verses 17, 18. It is all one context. Now, Wesley thought we ought to preach entire sanctification until we reached it; what if we preached this until we reached it:

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (I Cor. 2:5,6)

We have tried to see salvation and revival come by the eloquent words of mens articulation. As if some smoothe ear tickling statement were a substitute for the demonstration of the power of God. Two things people confuse as unction: a cool bass line or rift in a worship service and a smoothe talking eloquent preacher. Neither one are unction. Some of the most evil men on the face of the earth were also the most eloquent. People are getting goosebumbs tonight at some concert as a band plays some sensual sounds. But the question is; where is the UNCTION?

But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. (1 Cor. 4:19, 20)

This is the pink elephant in the room that nobody seems to be seeing. The Kingdom is not in word- the Greeks were smoothe talkers. The Kingdom of God is where the Finger of God is resident. That is how you know something is legit.

But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.(Luke 11:20)

This is what Paul was referring to in I Cor. 4. I'm not coming looking for the smoothe tongues of men, but for the finger of God. This is why the cover of Daniel Gruber's work on Rabbinic Judaism has a broken off finger on the cover. The Rabbi's broke off the finger of God and exalted the word of God in it's stead. Why need we the finger of God we have that which thy finger hath written. And when the church gets a revelation of that we will be one step closer to real revival.

But instead, faith is tried to be made to stand in the eloquence and wisdom of men.

I take no exception with this except to ask under the New Covenant, this Ananias and Sapphira story is it the exception or the norm? The way the story is often presented would leave a person with the idea there is a plethora of such examples in the New Testament.

I recall Paul writing to the Corinthians that had been suffering many sicknesses and deaths not knowing why:

For this cause [i]many[/i] are weak and sickly among you, and [i]many[/i] sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Here is the revelation of the underlying cause of much sickness and death among the people. Yet people today will often receive communion as if it were a lite thing. Why is there not wholesale death and sickness? It was true at Corinth, why would it not be true, say in Kansas City? I think the answer is clearly found as the common pattern of scripture. When God rolls out- all sorts of things are gotten by with. Just my radical thoughts I guess. ;-)

And if God truly does roll out, what then is left? How is this played out practically? Should God leave that is?

I think this is what Jesus said when He warned of the candlestick being removed. I have often wondered, if Ephesus were in danger of loosing their candlestick as we read of, what local church among us could possibly still have a candlestick at all? That is, unless God has changed the standard.

I have asked often (to myself) what could a person do to actually be excluded from a local fellowship? Other than Minster’s being “fired”, I really cannot name any incidents of this taking place.

I know that at John Macarthur's church they put people out when they meet the biblical criteria for sin and unrepentance. He broadcast an excommunication service once, I recall. They said when he took the church he would lose his congregation over it- but instead it has grown.

Confrontation is avoided at all costs, and might I say it has been at a great cost?

You are spot on here, I think. The cost is that folk think that they can sin with impunity. The danger is that sin begins to grow in a church. There are some 'mean' prescriptions for dealing with sin:

Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (I Tim. 5:20)

Two things people confuse as unction: a cool bass line or rift in a worship service and a smoothe talking eloquent preacher. Neither one are unction. Some of the most evil men on the face of the earth were also the most eloquent. People are getting goosebumbs tonight at some concert as a band plays some sensual sounds. But the question is; where is the UNCTION?

You probably know this already; the popular Actor Brad Pitt was raised three hours south of us in Springfield Missouri. Per capita, this town may have more churches, bibles, preachers than any city it’s size in the U.S.

And he made a statement the other day that he would get the same feelings at a local Revival Meeting as he would at a secular concert. The drive, the beat, the emotion, the activity ect… And it left him confused and in question about his Southern Baptist upbringing and Christianity in general.

I know little about this man, and perhaps outside the U.S he is little known, but I think his observation to be legitimate.

Confrontation is avoided at all costs, and might I say it has been at a great cost?
folk think that they can sin with impunity. The danger is that sin begins to grow in a church.

I have been in churches where sin was addressed in every service. The problem was, I never knew what exactly would comprise that list of sins being referred to, other than smoking, drinking and cussing, and a few others – but certainly sins like worry, bitterness, fear of man, desire for approval, religious dependencies, etc were never mentioned – those sins that play more havoc in the church than the “biggies”.

There is something else that I am concerned about: Our concern should not merely be over church leaders who refuse to expel the sinful brother, but over the REDEFINING of sin – simply by practise. Let’s admit, when you do something for long enough it FEELS right, in fact it IS right to the conscience. And what you never do, feels wrong, even if it is right (Ex Peter and the sheet of unclean animals)

I’ve been “confronted for my sin” a few times – only what I was confronted for was actually my obedience to the Lord. See why I’m not too quick to jump into this “rebuking sin” thing – it becomes a case of rebuking what the church VIEWS as sin?

While everyone here seems to be appealing for more confrontation of sin, I would like to suggest that we should be more concerned about the need to teach and model the godly life. That might be the best way to induce change: “Let your light shine…”

“Go and make disciples of all nations…. “

Re pastoral confrontation, I have a good story. A pastor friend of ours began his ministry in a church by writing a letter to all the non-attending members telling them that their name would be removed from the membership if they were not intending to be active members. People got hopping mad at him. But by and by, he had, and still has, a strong church, spiritually speaking. He teaches the godly life – rich sermons. And it works!

Keep your church healthy spiritually, and you won’t have so many “sickies” hanging around.

Diane

Keep your church healthy spiritually, and you won’t have so many “sickies” hanging around.

This is where we have to be driving towards if any revival is to ever be sustained. A church that is spiritually healthy has to be one in which the candlestick is in place and Christ is walking among them (it). [i]As many as I love [u]I[/u] rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore and repent. He that hath an ear let him hear what the [u]Spirit[/u] saith unto the churches[/i].

The Holy Spirit has to be the administrator of the churches. The trouble is that people fear allowing God to have that type of reign in a gathering. So the pattern becomes one in which there is a speaker and many hearers. But in an atmosphere were the vast majority of the people are truly walking with God and [i]hearing[/i] what the Spirit is saying to the church then deception is minimized. But you can't have 3% Spirit led people and the rest carnal. Everyone is [i]supposed[/i] to be walking with God and when something is not right in an environment such as this it is not all that hard to narrow it down. But so long as we have such a small number willing to seek to walk in NT life we will always walk this treadmill. Sin (especially sins as are outlined in Galatians 5) is the enemy of any move of God. If we do not recognize this fact and not for the sake of being harsh we will suffer greatly.

We have some occasions of folk being dealt with that come to mind from the NT. The fornicator in I Corinthians is the most popular. Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers that had to be put out. Archippus was personally challenged to get about fulfilling his ministry. I don't know if that was public, but it almost had to be given that letters were often read aloud. Jesus often rebuked or challenged folk publicly.

It was Adam's responsibility to hedge the Garden of Eden about with thorns (Gen. 2). He was supposed to be protecting the environment that God came to meet him in. When he allowed the tempter in it was not long and sin turned that Garden into just any ole' piece of property. The key is always prevention. Paul wept and warned Ephesus (and Asia) 3 years day and night about wolves coming. He was trying to get them to see the need to hedge in that church. How can you hedge in a church in today's world when the object is to allow in anybody and everybody unthwarted? But it would be 'mean' to do otherwise?

I find the widespread and universal operation of the Holy Spirit in NT times very challenging. Again in Acts 20 we read:

Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

The Holy Spirit was speaking in the churches of every city [i]prophetically[/i]. Again, this is that missing finger of God I referred to.

hmmhmm:

There have been many times when comments from my children have brought me to attention and made me stop and think.
I believe it is because when they speak, they are speaking purely out of a curious and trusting heart.

Small children look to their parents as having all the answers.

The mother of the child that this post originated with, is not walking with the Lord, altho she was raised by a Christian mother.

It is interesting because recently she got into trouble, and was fearful of the consequences.

She is currently paying the consequences of those actions.
I plan to reference her son's comment to this situation she is in; as to God's dealings with sin in our lives.

God is Awesome!...He allowed such a situation to take place in this girl's life; the same time her son is inquiring about God and sin.

I look forward to talking with her again, and plan to make a point of this topic and speak clear and direct with her.
She is receptive to me; because she trusts my opinion and knows my walk with Christ.

I believe that God placed this young lady under my leadership, not so much for the sake of our jobs, but to redirect her back to Him.

Oh, the Love of our Father, that His heart is set on reconciling us back to Him.
How can we NOT Praise His Name? I love Him SO!!!

B.

I believe that God placed this young lady under my leadership, not so much for the sake of our jobs, but to redirect her back to Him.

I think that if you approach this mom with the idea that sin is essentially the desire to live a life independent of God – like Adam and Eve did, then she may understand the consequences as described in Garden account, and also her need for Christ. To try to get her to eradicate her bad habits may merely produce pharisaism. You end up with a white-washed sepulchre – at best.

If we leave out the eternal life aspect of the Biblical story, then yes, God would be mean…. very mean! And it is mean to teach the Adam and Eve story without presenting the promise – ie Christ!

By the way, was death given to mankind as a punishment or as a means to hope? Without death how could sinners ever escape their sin-wounded condition? How could they ever have perfect fellowship with God again?

Diane

Sin (especially sins as are outlined in Galatians 5) is the enemy of any move of God.

Are we willing to, like Paul, view it all as “rubbish’, “lost for the sake of Christ’?

Diane

How can we expect revival without the willingness to surrender our national, cultural, religious identities and securities. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave not master….. and so forth.

Are we willing to, like Paul, view it all as “rubbish’, “lost for the sake of Christ’?

I have met young people in the last few years that were so radical for revival that they were even casting off their families for Christ. But the thing I told them then and say again now, is that the principal is that Christ must come [i]first[/i] in a real and genuine way. We ought to obey God rather than men, etc.. We must be prepared to lay down our lives also, but that does not mean we seek martyrdom. Sometimes it is a greater challenge to stay in the lion's den or the firey furnace than to seek to flee to a different country. I think the key is to discern the will of God and walk in it. We just need to be obedient, I think. I'll give God what He asks for- but what would it profit to give to God offerings He has not required at our hands? Again, I think it is the Martha and Mary lesson all over again. Martha was upset because her sister did not help do the house chores- and I'm sure she received a reward for her labors at the Judgment Seat of Christ. But Mary had been listening to Jesus and she knew something everyone else missed- and she acted at the right moment in faith. She broke the alabaster ointment. She anointed His body for burial. She is one of only two people in the NT that a memorial is made of their deeds. The other is Cornelius.

Diane:

Yes, death is love. Without death, there is no life.

I really had not thought to help this girl learn to eradicate her bad habits, that would be fruitless. I am excited for the opportunity God has opened up, for me to hit her square in the face with the Truth.
I am a no frills person, when it comes to the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

The Spirit of God makes it possible for a heart to be open/receptive.

I was thinking tonight about the people in the Bible that Jesus forgave and healed...The woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, the man dropped thru the roof by his caring friends.

Jesus forgave/healed them, and He told them straight out..."Go and sin no more"...

And I believe what changed their lives forever, was not only that He spoke words of instruction and life to them, but that they "met" Jesus.

I want this girl at work, as well as all the others that the Lord has brot into my path, to "MEET Jesus" and be saved from eternal damnation.

and RobertW...to your comment about it being more difficult to stay in the fire than to flee to another country (something to that effect); I absolutely agree.
When God leads us to Wait on Him, it many times brings on persecution, because well meaning Christian friends will tell you that you need to be doing something, because God would not want you to be in that situation.
Yet, Waiting on God IS His will and it feels like Fire! But it is the safest place to be, even if it is difficult.

B.

what about corporate sins: reliance on our institutions: church, the buildings,...Are we willing to, like Paul, view it all as “rubbish’, “lost for the sake of Christ’?

Not to steer this in another direction, but sometimes our vocabulary takes us unintentionally down dead-ends we don't want to go.

I think it's important to note that reliance on church is not a sin; in fact it's apostolic new testament Christianity. There is much emphasis on individual reliance on Jesus today...perhaps in reaction to "churchianity"...but such individual reliance on Jesus I believe is contrary to the history of the Early Church.

One of the secrets to their success, I firmly believe, is not only in their remarkable individual unction, but in the power of their society....something which is lost because of our modern dislocation. Contrary to revivalist romanticism, it wasn't just the dynamic apostolic individual that challenged and altered pagan society. To be a Christian in ancient society meant you were part of a contrast society.

For me, I believe only in the context of this contrast society will we take hold of all of the things we hope for in Christ. Godly parenting, worship, evangelism, non-violence, charity, holiness...all these only really thrive in the context of a seperate committed society. This "crutch" is instituted by God and is not an idol to Jesus. I do not believe an individual, no matter how passionate he is about his salvation, can sustain his creeds without this holy family.

Even our more modern revivals bear this out. For instance, Methodists were a society whose fellowship was not only filled with the fire of the Holy Spirit, but was also marked by a regulated conformity of conduct. Today, I believe these communites are still being formed...even if we do not hilight them. I am sure our own Jesse and Jim can testify that the daily bond they have with their fellow ministers in Christ may be closer then the bond they have with flesh and blood family.

So today, if we are seeking true revival, but not seeking spiritual and social familiarity with one another, we are going to be dissapointed because we are seeking something not provided for in scripture. Jesus is not mine...but ours.

My children are also exposed in this venture...a brother in the Lord is someone whom I could trust to deposit something of Christ, if not through speech, then through conduct, into the character of my own children. The stakes of true Christianity are high indeed, in which the true church is not a generous welcome center for the world, but a safely gaurded emblematic community living seperated but open before the world.

With this in mind, the sorry state of many chuches becomes really clear. Perhaps this why even our children are surprised at the concept of discipline in church. Seeker sensitive evangelistic methodology is eradicating any remaining traces of New Testament Christianity in the American Church,...leaving only an empty program of self-help platitudes and a diety that nurtures self-interest.

So let's be careful about including reliance on the Church as 'rubbish for the sake of Christ' without articulating exactly what we mean...

buildings

Blessings,

MC

This is why seeker sensitive evangelistic methodology is eradicating any remaining traces of New Testament Christianity in the American Church

I think this is very well put and very true indeed.

Today I worked with my assistant mentioned in the original post on this thread, and was able to briefly ask her how she responded when her son said that God was mean.

She said she told him that God is NOT mean;
Adam and Eve had been told by God NOT to eat from that tree and they disobeyed, therefore they were punished.

So she did drive two points of Truth to him...God is a loving God. God punishes when we disobey.

b.

So let's be careful about including reliance on the Church as 'rubbish for the sake of Christ' without articulating exactly what we mean...

Speaking of the need to explain more fully:

She said she told him that God is NOT mean;
Adam and Eve had been told by God NOT to eat from that tree and they disobeyed, therefore they were punished.

This thread is awakening me to the need for thoroughness in sharing the truths from the Word of God. It is easy to assume that our listeners are reading our minds and are filling in the blanks correctly. But in the end, we might have left them with a distorted picture of God and his ways.

Diane

Diane...
Yesterday was the first time she worked with me, since the day last week that she told me her son's statement.

I was glad to hear what her response to him was.

She was gone for a few days, because she was serving a short "sentence" as punishment for something that she did.

She said that the experience was so horrible, and that she will never make that mistake again.

I thot of our exchange regarding eraticating bad habits...vs...speaking the Truth and a change of heart etc....

It has helped in me being all the more straight forward with her....she is receptive more now than ever.

Thank you allll for your input on this thread. The life and soul of this young lady is priceless to the heart of God, and I am honored to be put in her life for such a time as this, to help bring her thoughts and direction back to the Lord

I appreciate every bit of input that has gone in to this thread.

You all have blessed my walk with Christ, immensely!

God Bless you for your Care and Wisdom,
Bonnie