Biblical Unitarianism

--There is one God.

Mark 28-30
One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.

--Only God is to be worshiped and served.

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'

--Jesus is the Son of God, the King of Israel.

John 1:49
Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"

--Jesus is a human man in every way. He has no "God-nature".

2 John 7
Many false teachers are in the world now who do not confess that Jesus Christ came to earth as a human.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Acts 2:22
Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

--Jesus had a beginning - He was begotten.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

--Jesus did not exist before He was born any more than Jeremiah did.

Jeremiah 1:4
[God speaking of Jeremiah:]
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.

--God's Holy Spirit is not separate from God anymore than a man's spirit is separate from a man.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

--Dead men are not conscience. They are truly dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing

Psalm 88:10-12
Will You work wonders for the dead?
Shall the dead arise and praise You? Selah
Shall Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave?
Or Your faithfulness in the place of destruction?
Shall Your wonders be known in the dark?
And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the LORD,
Nor any who go down into silence.

--The wicked will be destroyed, not subject to eternal conscience torment (many of the "proof texts" of an eternal conscience hell are biased mistranslations).

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 20:15
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

-------

I made this short statement of belief. To see some that are made by others and are more comprehensive (I agree 99% with them (edit: more like 90-98)):

The Racovian Catechism
Allon Maxwell: I believe

My beliefs match up closely with Biblical Unitarianism, not to be confused with Universal or Rational Unitarianism. The later is probably the only kind of Unitarianism you have heard of.

The following is the best summary on the trinity I have found. It is excellent.

Understanding: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Here are more resources to look at, with many many articles (I do not agree with everything on these sites):

Jesus The Messiah and His Kingdom
Biblical Unitarianism
Bible Digest
Housemail

Remember: it's not about who can explain a passage, it's about which explanation is most coherent with all biblical revelation.

Once again, please read this short book:
Understanding: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

God bless in your search for truth,
Matt

Edit:
Here is one more link, with a massive scripture index. The site is somewhat bogus, but please see what it says about supposed trinity proof texts:

[url=http://godandson.reslight.net/]Jesus and His God[/url]

THE lord our God is one! Like moses said'hear o Israel! the Lord our God is One'

Jesus was one hundred percent man till He was anointed by the holy spirit-the spirit of God.
It is this Spirit(Spirit of Christ),that has been existing before the foundation of the world.

We all are gods under the one true God.For He says in Psalm 82 'I have said ye are gods'Jesus Himself testified to this verse when He said in John 'if He called them gods to whom the word of God came, what do you say of Him who the Father has sanctified and sent into the world?'

Nile, this is certainly an unorthodox stance you're taking on the forum... it seems like more and more people are making claims such as these lately.

Every great heresy, whether in the first century AD or in the last century has started with one fundemental claim... that Jesus was not God.

The attack on Jesus' divinity is always the first step towards becoming a heretic or a cult!

Whether it was the Gnostics in the early church, or the JWs, Mormons, Universalists of today... they all attack the divinity of Christ.

The most significant difference between the Jesus preached by Mormons and Muslims and Orthodox Christians is the divinity of Christ. Muslims reject the Divinity of Jesus Christ and claim that while he performed miracles he was just another man. Mormons claim that Jesus was just like us once.

This is VERY dangerous territory. Please take notice of this warning.

Nile,

Do you believe anything that would be considered "orthodox?"

Jhn 17:5 \t And now, O Father, [b]glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee [u]before the world was.[/u][/b]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=7893&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]godhead[/url]

That is a thread you may want to look over.

Do you believe anything that would be considered "orthodox?"

I don't know, I would have to look and see.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

A good verse for sure. What is your point though? I wouldn't believe what I do if I didn't have a good explanation consistent with all of scripture for such a well known verse.

---

Suppose...

The Bible has two verses that are tricky and seem to say that the sky is red. Now, they could be interpret to mean the sky is blue also.

Then there are 1000 verses that clearly say the sky is blue.

What do we do? Do we create a contradiction and say the sky is both blue and red at the same time? Or do we interpret the scripture in a way that makes the most sense in light of all scripture?

Who can tell me how many times Jesus is called "God the Son"?

Who can tell me how many times Jesus is called "God"? In addition to Jesus, how many other people in the Bible are called "God"?

For those who cry heresy: where am I commanded to believe that Jesus is God?

Matt

Hi Nile...

Here are a few verses to consider before aligning yourself with any sort of "unitarian" view:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
- John 1:1-5
[b]Jesus is God and created all things.[/b]

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That [b]at the name of Jesus every knee should bow[/b], of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
- Philippians 2:5-11
[b]Jesus is the very nature of God.[/b]

"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."
- Revelation 22:8-9
[b]We don't even bow at the feet of an angel; we only bow and worship God![/b]

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
- Colossians 2:9
[b]Jesus Christ is the form of God in "body" (the flesh).[/b]

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
- Titus 2:13-14
[b]Jesus is both God and our Savior, who gave Himself for us.[/b]

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
- I Timothy 3:16
[b]Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh."[/b]

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
- Hebrews 1:8
[b]The Son is God.[/b]

"In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
- Isaiah 6:1-5
[b]Who did Isaiah see? He saw the LORD (capital letters, referencing the Divine Name of God). But "no man can see God and live [Exodus 33:20]. So who did Isaiah see? Isaiah continues...[/b]

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me."
- Isaiah 6:8
[b]The lower case "Lord" often refers to the Messiah in the Old Testament (Matthew 22:41-44).[/b]

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."
- I John 5:20
[b]Even the modern texts refer to Jesus as the "true God." [/b]

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
- Revelation 1:17-18
[b]...in conjunction with...[/b]
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
- Isaiah 44:6
[b]This is speaking of Christ, the King of Israel.[/b]

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."
- Isaiah 43:11
[b]Yet Christ is our Savior! (Titus 2:10-13; Titus 3:4; Luke 2:11; John 4:42; [/b]

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
- Luke 16:19-31
[b]Hell exists for the wicked after death.[/b]

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
- Revelation 20:12-15
[b]Judgment Day preceeds punishment.[/b]

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
- Revelation 21:7-8
[b]How long does "the second death" last?[/b]
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
- Matthew 25:41
[b]It is "everlasting."[/b]

Interestingly, Keith Green had a difficult time with the concept of the deity of Christ at the beginning of his faith. Have you ever read his biography, "[i]No Compromise]/i]?" It is a great book!

:-)

Hey ccchhhrrriiisss, thanks for your reply!

Those are a lot of good verses - all of the ones I thought of when I set out to research non-trinitarianism! I can say that I have researched them all to my hearts desire and am convinced the trinity is not taught in one verse of the Bible. Doing some quick math, I have spent over 60 hours researching this. Enough time to look at 60 passages an hour each. I would encourage you to look at the links I gave at the first post and see what the non-trinitarian explanations of these verses are.

I just...I want to respond to all of your arguments, because they are good and valid, and I have read all of them and have perfect answers! Did you know that Moses was called Elohim? Did you know that David was worshiped with YWHW in the same sentence? Did you know that Elohim is indeed plural, but that the usage of the plural to describe singular is a literary device used elsewhere in scripture? Did you know that God did not speak out of the burning bush...but that an angel did, speaking for God? Did you realize that the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 is the same thing as the Word of John 1:1? Did you know that "logos" is not capitalized in the greek, and is used throughout the NT and never considered to be a person? Did you realize that until the KJV, the "He" of John 1:1-3 was always "it" (even in the Geneva Bible)?

Did you know that...I'll go through some of them.

We don't even bow at the feet of an angel; we only bow and worship God!

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
- Colossians 2:9
Jesus Christ is the form of God in "body" (the flesh).

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
- I Timothy 3:16
Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh."

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
- Hebrews 1:8
The Son is God.

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."
- I John 5:20
Even the modern texts refer to Jesus as the "true God."

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
- Revelation 1:17-18
...in conjunction with...
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
- Isaiah 44:6
This is speaking of Christ, the King of Israel.

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."
- Isaiah 43:11
Yet Christ is our Savior! (Titus 2:10-13; Titus 3:4; Luke 2:11; John 4:42;

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
- Titus 2:13-14
Jesus is both God and our Savior, who gave Himself for us.

(parable)
- Luke 16:19-31
Hell exists for the wicked after death.

Judgment Day preceeds punishment.
...
How long does "the second death" last?
...
It is "everlasting."

Let me throw one more link out there. It's a somewhat bogus site, but with some good things I believe:

[url=http://godandson.reslight.net/]Jesus and His God[/url]

It has a massive scripture index. I suggest looking at some of these verses to what they say, then arguing against the interpretation.

Interestingly, Keith Green had a difficult time with the concept of the deity of Christ at the beginning of his faith. Have you ever read his biography, "[i]No Compromise]/i]?" It is a great book!

Matt

Nile, you need a balance of scripture and a balance of teachings.

If I listened to sixty hours of preaching on the need to observe Judaic law as a Christian I would probably come away convinced that I shouldn't eat pork... and there are some people like the Seventh Day Adventists who preach this kind of doctrine.

If I were to listen to sixty hours of sermons or read several books on Unitarianism I would probably come away with the wrong impression as well.

But if someone where to spend sixty hours in the Word of God they would realize that the full picture of the gospel is not quite so simple.

There are definitely verses that would lead one to believe that we must observe Jewish traditions, there are verses that would lead us to be believe in unitarian doctrines, and all sorts of other cults and unorthodox teachings... but in light of all of the scriptures these teachings will be shown ultimitaley to be false.

There are plenty of verses that support the teaching of the trinity, and there are plenty of verses that tell believers they can eat pork and don't need to become Jews.... you need to spend time in the Word and understand that you really don't understand anything about the nature of God.

iansmith,

Your post isn't that helpful to me.

Are you aware what the non-trinitarian arguments are?
If you could argue why the non-trinitarian system as a whole is wrong that would be helpful.

As it is, I have discussed this issue with ardent trinitarians and have spend much time in the word and prayer before coming to my conclusions.

Also, I want to mention that I didn't seek to prove the trinity wrong. I was presented with some arguments and wanted to see if they were true. I have no trouble understanding the trinity how the trinitarians explain it. It is not that I couldn't accept the doctrine, but it is that I do not believe it is Biblical.

Matt

You know, I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just stating the fact that your views are not orthodox. Despite the fact that you feel strongly about this issue, the majority of Christian witness (ie. orthodoxy) over the past two thousand years is in opposition of the conclusion you have come to.

As I was considering this, among Christians there are really only three camps that you could call home, Oriental Orthodox fellowships (ie. coptics) who believe in something similar to Unitarianism, Oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians. Really the only one of these groups that fits into Western Protestant Christianity is the Oneness Pentecostals... and they are very much on the fringes.

This forum for the most part tries to keep the narrow road of biblical orthodoxy. Since most of the members of this forum are Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglicans, Methodists etc, I've just got to be honest, you're going to be on the outside with a Unitarian viewpoint.

I really don't know how you can expect any different response than the one that you've gotten. You wouldn't walk into a Presbyterian seminary and proclaim that you hate reformed doctrine. You wouldn't walk into a Assemblies of God's church and state that tongues are a deception of the devil. You shouldn't expect to get a positive response coming to a forum that is probably better than 90% Trinitarian and claim that there is no Trinity and come away without any bruises.

Jesus makes it clear in John 14 who he is and who is in him.
He is the one whom we believe in and the one who we must obey, and that God the father has put all authority in the hands of Jesus.
If this teaching of unitarianism poisons just one of God's little one's.??!!!
you have a millstone to look forward to.
Please stop.
Have a great day.

You know, I'm not trying to argue with you

I'm just stating the fact that your views are not orthodox. Despite the fact that you feel strongly about this issue, the majority of Christian witness (ie. orthodoxy) over the past two thousand years is in opposition of the conclusion you have come to.

I really don't know how you can expect any different response than the one that you've gotten. You wouldn't walk into a Presbyterian seminary and proclaim that you hate reformed doctrine. You wouldn't walk into a Assemblies of God's church and state that tongues are a deception of the devil. You shouldn't expect to get a positive response coming to a forum that is probably better than 90% Trinitarian and claim that there is no Trinity and come away without any bruises.

I have been a trinitarian my whole life except for the past two weeks. I believe this is the first (or second) post I've made on SI not believing in the trinity. This is not me just walking in and causing a ruckus. I've had discussion with many people here before and wish to have more discussions.

Matt

poet wrote:
Jesus makes it clear in John 14 who he is and who is in him.
He is the one whom we believe in and the one who we must obey, and that God the father has put all authority in the hands of Jesus.

He_Reigns,

Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced. I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.

So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.

Yes that is correct, I do not believe Jesus was Creator God come in the flesh.

The verses that talk about Jesus creating the world are referring to the messianic age. Look at Hebrews 1:2 and then Hebrews 2:5. John 1:3 isn't talking about Jesus, but the actual word of God, just like it says.
This is directly from the Geneva Bible:

1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God. 2 This same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.

Amazing isn't it? That the whole notion of the word in John 1:1-3 being Jesus just came about in the last 500 hundred years or so.

Thank you for the question.
Matt

Let me give a point of clarification:

Jesus is not God in the flesh, but He does represent God in the flesh. He is the perfect image of God.

Matt...reading your posts greatly saddens me. Here are some resources for you to check out:

[url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/TheHistoryOfTheTrinity.pdf]History
of the Trinity[/url]

[url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/TheIAMSayingsProveJesusToBeDivine.pdf]The "I AM" Saying of Jesus - written by a former Muslim (these convinced Him that God is a Trinity)[/url]

[url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/Deity_of_Jesus.pdf]The Deity of Jesus by Walter Martin[/url]

Norman Geisler on the Trinity:
[url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/Trinity1.pdf]Part 1[/url]
[url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/Trinity2.pdf]Part 2[/url]
[url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/Trinity3.pdf]Part 3[/url]
[url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/Trinity4.pdf]Part 4[/url]
[url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/Trinity5.pdf]Part 5[/url]

Matt, what do you do with the fact that ALL of the Early Church Fathers believed in the Trinity and in the Deity of Jesus. Many of these men were disciples of the apostles. Men like Polycarp, Papias, Ignatius and Clement of Rome. And then after them were men like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hermas, Hippolytus, Tertullian, etc. They were Greek and read the Greek as a first language. Some of them heard from the Apostles directly and the others heard from those who heard from the Apostles. The Deity of Christ or the Trinity is NOT some new doctrine. It has been believed since the BEGINNING brother. You have all of history to fight against. Pardon me for being blunt, but you seem to be treating this as if it is a conspiracy theory or something. I pray that you seek and search this out more brother and that God will reveal the truth to you.

Also, check out this page: [url=http://www.answering-islam.org/Who/index.html]Who Is Jesus?[/url]
God Bless...

Annie, thank you for your concern.

I do not believe like the JWs that Jesus was "a" god or like the Mormons that Jesus was just like God. I know that both times God is used it is the same God. But I think that the "word" is the actual word of the God, or the plan or reason or wisdom of God. Look at proverbs 8.
Here is what I believe on John 1:
[url=http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/Beginning.htm]In the Beginning was the Word[/url]

I will look at the Greek, but what should I look for?

Thank you with love,
Matt

Hey Kerrigan,

I have some writings of the early fathers and see nothing of the trinity. Perhaps you could show me some that speak of the trinity? The earlier the better, like before 150 A.D. I think the doctrine of the trinity arose quickly because of the influence of Greek platonic influence.

I read skimmed the history of the church article you gave and see nothing of the trinity by early fathers. Rather, I see evidence against the trinity.

The "I AM" sayings of Jesus are very un-impressive to me. Other people in the NT said "I AM" in the same exact words Jesus did, yet no one thought they were God. Farther more, Jesus never said, "I am that I am."

Kerrigan, where am I commanded to believe that Jesus is God? Which commandment do I break? I believe He is the Son of God as the Old Testament says, as the gospels say, and as Paul teaches.

Brother, I very much wish you and other s to read some of these things I have read. Right now I'm not concerned with convincing you but just that someone would read what I've read! No one will ever convince me unless they first understand what convinced me in the first place. Then I could be convinced if I what convinced me is shown wrong.

I will read the links you gave when I have some time, thank you for them.
Matt

HE_Reigns wrote:
Hia Matt. I read your link, but I must ask now - than Who is this ....

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Brother Kerrigan left a good post also.

Love to you in Christ Jesus.
Annie

It is Jesus :-)

Now I ask, who is this "word of God"?
2 Timothy 2:8-9
Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.

Who is this "word of God"?
Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

Probably most important, who is this "word of God"?
2 Peter 3:5-6
For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

My point is that yes, Jesus is clearly called the Word of God, but every time the Bible says, "word" or "word of God" you can't simply substitute Jesus.

Matt

HE_Reigns wrote:
Yes, He is Jesus Coming back to earth in that chapter. You got His Name right. :-D

The thing is Matt - keep reading from there unto the end of chpt 22.

Those 4 chpt.s say it all.

His Love to you. Always.

I will read it tomorrow morning :-)

Hey Matt, you can check out all the quotes that I am about to type out in David Bercot's [i]Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs[/i]. By the way David Bercot used to be a JW.

[b]Athenagoras (c.175):[/b]
"Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men called atheists who speak of God the Father, and of GOD THE SON, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare bother their power in union and their distinction in order?"

"Christian know God and HIS LOGOS. They also know what type of oneness the Son has with the Father and what type of communion the Father has with the Son. Furthermore, they know what the Spirit is and what the unity is of THESE THREE: the Spirit, the Son and the Father. They also know what their distinction is in unity."

"We acknowledge a God, and a Son (HIS LOGOS), and a Holy Spirit. These are UNITED IN ESSENCE- the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Now, the Son is the Intelligence, Reason and Wisdom of the Father. And the Spirit is an emanation, as light from the fire."

[b]Theophilus (c. 180):[/b]
"The three days which were before the luminaries are types of the TRIAD GOD, His WORD and His Wisdom."

[b]Irenaeus (c.180):[/b]
"One God the Father is declared, who is above all, through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ. But the WORD is through all things and is Himself the Head of the Church. While the Spirit is in us all, and He is the living water."

"I have also largely demonstrated that the WORD, NAMELY THE SON, was always with the Father."

[b]Clement of Alexandria (c. 195):[/b]
"Thank the one only Father and Son, Son and Father. The Son is the Instructor and Teacher, along with the Holy Spirit. They are all in One, in whom is all, for whom all is One, for whom is eternity."

[b]Tertullian (c.198):[/b]
"We pray at a minimum not less than three times in a day. For we are debtors to Three: Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

"For the very Church itself is-properly and principally-the Spirit Himself, in whom is the TRINITY of ONE DIVINITY: Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

"I testify that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other...My assertion is that the Father is one, the Son is one and the Spirit is one-and that they are all distinct from each other...The Father is not the same as the Son, for they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: 'My Father is greater than I.'"

"However, that there are two Gods or two Lords, is a statement that at no time proceeds out of our mouths. Not as if it were untrue that the Father is God, the SON IS GOD and the Holy Spirit is God, and EACH IS GOD...Now, if there were found in the Scriptures but one Personality of Him who is God and Lord, Christ would justly enough be inadmissible to the title of God and Lord. For there was declared to be none other than ONE GOD and ONE LORD."

"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, distinct from one another. These Three are on in essence-not one in Person. For it is said, 'I and my Father are One,' in respect of unity of substance, not singularity of number."

[b]Hippolytus (c. 205):[/b]
"Therefor a man...is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God- who, BEING GOD, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject (Himself excepted)-and the Holy Spirit; and that these are three [Persons]. However, if he desires to know how it is shown there there is still one God, let him know that His power is one. But as far as regards the Economy, there is a threefold manifestation."

[b]Cyprian (c. 250):[/b]
"'Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.' He suggests the TRINITY, in who sacrament the nations were to be baptized."

"If a person baptized by heretics were sanctified, he would also be made the temple of God. I ask, 'of what God?' If of the Creator, he could not be. For he has not believed in Him. If of Christ, he could not become His temple, SINCE HE DENIES THAT CHRIST IS GOD. If of the Holy Spirit, how can the Holy Spirit be at peace with him who is the enemy either of the Son or the Father. For the THREE ARE ONE."

"The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one.' And, again, it is written of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: 'And these three are ONE.'"

I think that should be enough for now...but there are tons more quotes brother. Please do some more research and not be settled with your conclusions EVEN AFTER 60 hours. I kind of say that sarcastically brother, as if 60 hours were enough to do away with the Trinity and the Deity of Christ! :-(

Kerrigan,

Yes, I see the trinity emerging in those quotes. I think the deception had already by that time though. John himself said: " For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh."

What about the earlier fathers though?

Nothing I have read of them seems to suggest the trinity. The quotes that are claimed to be suggesting do not...they only appear to because of misunderstandings of John 1:1 and the manner in which Jesus is the Son of God.

Please do some more research and not be settled with your conclusions EVEN AFTER 60 hours. I kind of say that sarcastically brother, as if 60 hours were enough to do away with the Trinity and the Deity of Christ!

Yes, I only mention the hours so people realize that this is not a whim. I will do more research. What about you? Do you know what you arguments against the trinity are? And not the JW and Mormon arguments, the Biblical Unitarian arguments? Remember, I have believed in the trinity my whole life. One month ago I debated a Muslim on the trinity using the same arguments everyone else does. I talked about John 1:1, Thomas worshiping Jesus, Jesus saying "I Am", Jesus creating the world, Jesus being worshiped, Jesus saying He is the First and Last, saying, "I and the Father are One", etc. What could have caused me in less than two weeks (I have considered other doctrines much longer) to believe other wise? What were the arguments?!?!?

Matt

First, I must say that mentioned the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in one sentence says nothing about them being a trinity.

I will post one quote of my own, then I need to go to bed. It might be a few days before I can post again.

[i]Now, from this one passage of the epistle of the inspired apostle, we have been already able to show that the Father and the Son are two separate Persons, not only by the mention of their separate names as Father and the Son, but also by the fact that He who delivered up the kingdom, and He to whom it is delivered up -- and in like manner, He who subjected (all things), and He to whom they were subjected -- [b]must necessarily be two different Beings[/b].[/i]
-Tertullian

I found this, and other things
[url=http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?s=80cfb6eef949860a60650988fd5b609e&showforum=67]here[/url]

More later.
Matt

Corey,

Now, the best scripture for your argument is the story of the rich young ruler who called Jesus "good master".

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." (MATT 19:17, MARK 10:18, LUKE 18:19)

This is also the best scripture against Unitarianism. Why? Because it could just as well be a challenge to the man, in effect, "Did you just recognize me as God?"

There are many many arguments against the trinity though...
[url=http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=30]here are 100 for example[/url].

Nile, I'll posit a few questions to you. You can answer them in your own time, in your own way (ie, you don't need to answer them here):

1. Of all creatures in heaven and earth, was Man alone made in the image and likeness of God?

2. If Man was made in God's likeness, is it not logical for God to be able to become a human, or inhabit a human body (much as a hand fits in the glove designed to cover it)?

So no, God cannot become a man as the trinitarians say. God could put on a human body and pretend to be a man, but He could never only be a man.

What God can do is birth a Son into the world, and raise His Son in His manifold wisdom, teaching Him all His ways. God could train His Son and teach Him obedience, wisdom, and holiness so that His Son was the perfect image and reflection of His Father.

3. If you affirm the first two questions, is there any man in recorded history who was more wonderous, otherly, divine, or perfect than Jesus Christ?

Corey, have you read any of the links I gave?

Matt

Just a short post here to say I agree and support Nile in his beliefs.

Many are questioning the dogmas formulated in the Roman church and are finding them not biblical, but based on the Hellenized philosophies of the time.

It is time to restore the absolute Oneness of our Creator God - Immortal and not found in the likeness of man.

Jesus demonstrated absolute obedience to His Father and our Father, and by so doing overcame sin and became the second Adam, the one whom we are to emulate and follow as He leads us into the Kingdom of His God and our God.

HalleluYah!

So there are some things the omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God Almighty, Creator of Heavens and Earth, cannot do? The Lord cannot be man and God - even though he's omnipotent?

– C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, pages 40-41.

Nevertheless, the argument isn't relevant. It doesn't even address the possibility of Jesus being a man [i]who is[/i] the Son of God.

Matt

Jesus demonstrated absolute obedience to His Father and our Father, and by so doing overcame sin and became the second Adam, the one whom we are to emulate and follow as He leads us into the Kingdom of His God and our God.

HalleluYah!

Also, if you keep linking to Sites Nile - then what good will that do - because we could list a 1,000 sites also - don't ya see where this will end up - if we all do that?

Would you guys like to Disprove that Jesus was the Creator?

If you don't want to click a link though, here is something to read:

John 8: 58 "I AM "

You are not fifty years old," the Jews said to him, and you have seen Abraham! "I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am.

You have to look at the subject matter in this paragraph, which is Jesus’ age, not deity. The Jews are asking Jesus how can he know Abraham if he is not even fifty years old. Jesus tells them that before Abraham was born, I am. What Jesus is saying is that he is the one spoken of in the prophetic writings, long before Abraham’s time.

Let's look at the verse that started this whole misunderstanding so we can see what Jesus is referring to. John 8: 56 says:

"Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad."

Compare this verse with Hebrews 11: 13 which is talking about Abraham and his descendants. It states:

"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw it and welcomed it from a distance."

What Abraham saw was the fulfillment of God’s promise that the savior would be his descendant (Genesis12:3), and that line of descent started with their son Isaac. That is why it says "they saw it and welcomed it from a distance." The Jews misunderstood what Jesus meant at John 8: 56 and made it an issue of Jesus’ age, at which Jesus tried to correct them once again by saying, "Before Abraham was born, I am" (The Messiah). Jesus is saying that before Abraham was even born, God had already planned him as the Messiah in His mind.

1 Peter 1: 20 says:

"He was known before the foundation of the world."

Remember John 1: 1, "In the beginning was the word" (plan). Also, if you look at a Greek Bible, the two words for I am are the exact two words used for I am in John 8: 12 and John 8: 24. In John 8: 12 Jesus says:

"I am the light of the world."

In John 8: 24 Jesus says:

"For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

John 8: 24 is the continuation of John 8:12. The first I am is obviously referring to Jesus being the light of the world. The second I am is referring to Jesus being the light of the world, the Son of God. These are the exact same words used in John 8:58, yet, no one has taken them to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. As a matter of fact, the KJV translates the Greek I am in John 8:24 as, "I am he." In John 4:26, again, the same exact two words are used as in John 8: 58. The Samaritan woman has just said to Jesus,

"I know that the Messiah is coming, the one called the Anointed; when he comes, he will tell us everything."

Jesus says to her, (the actual Greek translation)

"I am, the one speaking to thee. "

He is who? The Messiah that is coming. The KJV and NIV translate this verse as "I that speak unto thee am he" and "I who speak to you am he." The I am here is referring to Jesus being the Messiah.

Mark 6:50 is about when Jesus walks on the water towards the disciples who are on a boat, and they think that they are seeing a ghost. The actual Greek reads, "Be of good cheer, I am; be ye not afraid. " The KJV and NIV translate this verse as,

"be of good cheer: It is I; be not afraid " and "Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid."
None of these I am are taken to mean that Jesus is God. As a matter of fact, they are translated in a variety of different ways, such as, "It is I" and "I am he." The beggar in John 9:9 when asked if he is the one who used to sit and beg answers them by saying the exact same words, "I am." Does that mean that the beggar is claiming to be God? Of course not!

So why do people claim that the John 8:58 I am is referring to the Exodus 3:14 I AM? Because of human tradition, trying to make Scripture fit their thought, instead of the other way around. It is the same exact I am as in the rest of these verses and the topic is obviously not Jesus’ deity. If the John 8:58 I am refers to the Exodus 3:14 I AM, then the rest of the other I am should also. But they DON’T.

Matt,

Have you joined a Christadelphian group?

Just a question regardless. Jesus reproved the Pharisees saying
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have eternal life." John 5
Who gives eternal life Matt? Is it obtained by a life of obedience? Jesus said that He gives it. Have you gone to Him to have eternal life or are you going to have a go at it yourself. I pray that you would do it immediately.

On another note to everyone. Muslims claim that the true knowledge of the true scriptures comes from the original writings in the original language. Otherwise you can't understand it properly and must have it taught to you. Is that the way with God? Is God's Mighty Right Hand only Mighty to those who study greek and Hebrew and know the history of the early church? Or is God Mighty enough that He can save english people by HIS WORD alone. Was God on holidays when Tyndale or whoever it was wrote the english bible? Or maybe He thought that english would never amount to much of an international language.

Matt, I suggest you look at your english bible, whichever version you got, and read the whole thing and don't talk to us for a few months until you've reread it, in english. Where it says that Jesus is man, understand it to mean man, where it says He is the Blessed God forever, understand it as that. Let the Holy Spirit do the interpreting and reconciling of the various texts.

In Christ,

Lloyd

Nile wrote

Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced. I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.

So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.

Yes that is correct, I do not believe Jesus was Creator God come in the flesh.

Paul wrote the following verse for a good reason; we come across all sorts of doctrines, but sudden change is not a good thing. [color=009900]Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;[/color] If you believe something has merit, it is worth holding it in your heart and considering it carefully for a long, long time; a week is way to short to abandon the deity of Christ; the risk with preaching (as you are doing) is so high; if one is wrong, you are insulting Him and misleading many, many others; one needs a really long time to be sure that you are in any way close to the truth.

You may refer to Saul's change on the Damascas Road, but I would remind you that was a very different experience from an intellectual study of other's writings and the bible as you have pursued. He had already heard Stephen's testimony, but it did not divert him from his pursuit at all!

Much love
Mike

I posted this in another thread, but it is worth repeating here:

The silence of the New Testament and the apostles is indeed a living accusation and witness against any notion of a three person make-up of the Living God of Israel.

Not one of the apostles felt the need to address this megashift in the unshakable Hebraic/Jewish understanding of pure monotheism. A monotheism based on the celebrated Deut 6:4: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord". This understanding was given to them by God Himself: "But the Lord has taken you, and brought you out of the iron furnace, from Egypt, to be a people for HIs own possession as today...To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD, He is God: there is no other besides Him: Deut 4.20, 35. The original reading would be: ..."YHWH, He is God: there is no other besides Him".

These early Jewish believers on the long awaited Messiah (the first assemblies of believers were almost entirely Jewish for about the first 10yrs), these believers on the Messiah of Israel, who held with unrelenting tenacity to the belief in the One God of Israel, are now said to have their entire theology rocked - without raising a question, a debate, an uproar? Suddenly they are purported to understand that The Eternal, Immortal, AlmightyGod, Creator of the Universe was actually the man Jesus, and Mary was the mother of God, and the Spirit of the Father (the Breath, Wind , Ruach of God), was actually a 3rd person, a ghost.

Deut.18:15 is a prophecy about the one to come, as Moses said: "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brethren. Him you shall hear......verse 18: I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him". This is Jesus, the perfect man, obedient and true, who later laid down his life for his brethren.

Peace

MikeH--------------You are accusing Nile (Matt) of the very thing that you say the first Jewish believers in Messiah did; that is throw out a strong, unshakeable belief at the drop of a hat, and start preaching a new one. As I said in my previous post, the notion of a 3 person God was absolutely foreign to the first Jewish believers in Messiah, and they would not have given up their pure Monotheism without much debate and questioning. The long awaited and expected Messiah was to be of the line of David, a mortal man, not YHWH, the Almighty God Himself.

Actually,as the bible clearly shows, the early jews for the most part rejected Jesus. If He was merely a man while being the Messiah then He would not be the stumbling stone that the builders rejected. They had Isaiah 53 or 54 whatever it is and they had the Psalm (can't remember which number) which says the Messiah must suffer. What then is it about Jesus that caused them to stumble over Him:

"Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you". Hab 1:5

Mike wrote:

So it took you a week to abandon a key doctrine of the Christian faith? And another week and a half to start preaching it. I won't enter the fray on the doctrine, as I doubt that I would be any more successful than others at convincing you. However, I would question such a dramatic change of mind in such a short space of time, and furthermore, that you so boldly proclaim your new found position. My experience is that I have occasionally 'discovered' wonderful new doctrines, but it only takes a little while to realise their source, as the primary appeal is to my pride, not the edification of the body. I have changed my view on a particular doctrine, though not half as important as this one, but it took me 10 years to get there. Of course, you could just say that I am slow

You are right on...you are saying the same things that was going through my mind...

It seems to me the Pharisees understood who Jesus was better then moderns who have the entire Bible at their disposal for study. Consider John 5:18: "Therefore, the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, i][b]making himself equal with God."[/b][/i]." And if Jesus was not God how can Isa. 43:11 be true: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside, me there is no savior." Isa. 45:21: "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time?, who hath told it from that time?, have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me."

Or consider: Luke 2:11: the angel told the shepherds that a Savior was born in Bethleham.

Nile, you must study the scriptures as a whole. To suggest the writer Isaiah did not know about what was to come is denying the inspiration of the HS in supervising the writings of His people. Hope and pray you will reconsider why you are so willing to abandon basic tenets of scripture...

ginnyrose

Post deleted by ginnyrose

Bubba,

When the Word is explicit in its teachings, we do well to make it our own. God has revealed Himself to us in ways we can comprehend. Failure to do so is our fault, not God's. I may be an ant but I would have you know the ants in Mississippi are not lazy and they can bite! and are smarter then humans often give them credit.

ginnyrose

hi, "before abraham was,I am" jimp

wildbranch wrote:
MikeH--------------You are accusing Nile (Matt) of the very thing that you say the first Jewish believers in Messiah did; that is throw out a strong, unshakeable belief at the drop of a hat, and start preaching a new one.

Now, I don't know Nile, I note he is 19 and engaged (congrats) and has been on the website for around 7 months. I don't know how long he has been a Christian. But my advice still stands, switching to a radically different doctrine and start preaching it within one week, is a dangerous thing to do. We are not talking about a salvation experience, but a doctrinal understanding, the implications of which are wide ranging and undermine many other doctrines within Christianity.

wildbranch wrote:
...and they would not have given up their pure Monotheism without much debate and questioning.

Mike

Hey all,

Just wanted to say that I'm not ignoring everyone, but I'm very busy with school and work.

The only comment I'll make now is that a house of cards falls quite easily. And that both of my two best friends have rejected the trinity in as much time as me as well. One was extremely opposed to the idea, as is to be expected, but then, in his own words, "Everything just fell into place after the first or second article." This article on Colossians was one of those articles:
[url=http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/colossians.htm]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/colossians.htm[/url]

Nile

The issue of whether you view Jesus is God is a salvation experience. I'm sorry but to not warn someone who claims otherwise is not loving. To know Jesus and be known by Him is an intimate loving knowing. I doubt that I could say I was intimate with someone if they were God and I didn't know it, say it and worship them aright. If John in 1John says you discern the spirits by whether they acknowledge Jesus came in the flesh ( not just that He was flesh ) If Thomas said Jesus was the Christ and his God and Jesus didn't object, if the Jews killed Jesus because he claimed to be equal with God and Jesus didn't object then Jesus is either insane or God. I choose and worship and exalt the latter. Please Nile repent.

MikeH - Greetings

The Trinity means three (3). Triad. Threesome. Not One (1).

ie. "Tritheism", opposed to "Monotheism"

Wildbranch, don't argue about semantics. I'm sure you are aware of what the Trinitarians believe. One, triune God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Arguing the word Trinity? You might as well go watch glue dry, it would be more worth your efforts.

On another note:
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron...

Amazing, within two verses it says in my bible that God Himself became flesh and that in the end times (now) many would fall away from this faith. And just to be clear: Who is manifest in the flesh, WHO? GOD!!
Sort of sounds like another verse: And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten. As in the Shekinah glory that Moses experienced. Men could not even look at Moses' face after he'd been in the very presence of the Lord. He had to wear a veil and we know that a veil is over the eyes of Isreal and apparrently over these men too as they cannot bear to look at the Glorious Son. Isreal told Moses, you talk to God, we can't bear His presence, we'll just obey. Is that not the situation here. Men, can you not bear the presence of God, but you say you are willing to obey. Isreal in the end departed from God and worshipped a golden calf while Moses was with God. If you don't believe Moses was in the presence of God Himself because the bible says that no man can see Him and live, remember that it also says in Deuteronomy 5
"The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire," showing clearly that the argument that it was merely an angel in the burning bush is totally false.
and again in Numbers 12
"And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, [I] the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Lkid:

Have you joined a Christadelphian group?

Amazing, within two verses it says in my bible that God Himself became flesh and that in the end times (now) many would fall away from this faith. And just to be clear: Who is manifest in the flesh, WHO? GOD!!

Third I doubt the idea that this was the result of Hellenistic thought. Surely this counterpoint of many levels of meaning, many levels of revelation, many levels of understanding is characteristic of Hebrew, not Hellenistic thought? Also, being comfortable with paradox - such as two apparently oppposing things both being true, is surely not characteristic of the neat Greek methods of reasoning?

---
The New American Bible has this to say about the word "logos" in a footnote:

"May denote an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word, speech, or message."

In Greek, the word "logos" according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary means:

Logos - The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea.

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:

Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

This unfortunately is not what it meant to Greek philosophy. In Greek philosophies such as Stoicism, and Neo-Platonism, "logos" was considered divine. To a Stoic, logos means "the divine principle of life." This is basically a definition of God. In Gnosticism "Logos" was the actual name of one of the intermediary gods.

Someone educated in one of these philosophies would interpret John 1: 1 in the following manner.

"In the beginning was the divine principle of life, the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God." Verse 14. "The divine principle of life became flesh."

Now you have God in heaven and in the flesh at the same time. The explanation came in the form of a dual natured Messiah who is fully God and fully man at all times (This definition of Jesus is in the Creed of Chalcedon which is the Trinitarian creed of all Trinitarian denominations). Thus the trinity.

---

From: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/Beginning.htm

I'm open to correction on this point, because of not having much knowledge of Hellenistic thought, but it doesn't sound Hellenistic to me! Please explain why you think it is...

He accepts worship

Not to mention the fact that "worship" has more definitions than the trinitarians would like you to believe. From Blue Letter Bible:

John 9:38
[i]And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.[/i]

he worshipped:

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
1) to the Jewish high priests
2) to God
3) to Christ
4) to heavenly beings
5) to demons

He uses titles that are only used by God. For example, the First and the Last, Alpha and Omega, in Revelation (quoting Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12, which are - especially the first - clearly God Himself speaking).

However, it is poor logic to suggest that when the same words are spoken in different places, by two different identities, those two MUST therefore be the same person! Nevertheless, that is what some theologians do with the three Bible verses which are the subject of this paper!"

http://home.pacific.net.au/~amaxwell/bdigest/bd90bbs.htm

he Bible says that Jesus (temporarily) laid down such things as omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience

---
Some people will try to answer some of these questions by saying, "Jesus emptied himself." This shows how little people understand their own creed. This is called the "kenotic doctrine" and people try to use it in defense of the trinity. But it is in total contradiction to the Chalcedon Creed. The Kenotic Doctrine says that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the kenotic doctrine, then you have already rejected the trinity. You cannot be both.

In 1951, in celebration of the 1500th birthday of the Chalcedon Creed, Pope Pius the 12th wrote the following:

Encyclical of Pope Pius the 12th on the Council of Chalcedon September 8, 1951

(paragraph 29).

There is another enemy of the faith of Chalcedon, widely diffused outside the fold of the Catholic religion. This is an opinion for which a rashly and falsely understood sentence of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Philippians (2:7), supplies a basis and a shape. This is called the kenotic doctrine, and according to it, they imagine that the divinity was taken away from the Word in Christ. It is a wicked invention, equally to be condemned with the Docetism opposed to it. It reduces the whole mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption to empty the bloodless imaginations.
---

From: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/4holyspi1.htm

His pre-existence is undoubted (read Proverbs 8 for example, Isaiah 48:16, John 1:1-4 and John 8:58, which has already been quoted)

---
Within the Christian tradition, the New Testament has long been read through the prism of the later conciliar creeds... Speaking of Jesus as the Son of God had a very different connotation in the first century from that which it has had ever since the Council of Nicea (325 AD). Talk of his preexistence ought probably in most, perhaps in all, cases to be understood, on the analogy of the pre-existence of the Torah, to indicate the eternal divine purpose being achieved through him, rather than pre-existence of a fully personal kind.
---

From: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/natureof.htm

And the Greek of John 1:1 makes it absolutely impossible to translate as anything other than "the word was God").

[i]God's wise plan has been since the beginning, and His wise plan was with Him, and His wise plan was of Him and His nature. God had His wise plan even in the beginning. All things were made through God's wise plan, and apart from His wise plan nothing was made that has been made. There was a means of life in His wise plan, and that means of life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, but the darkness did not comprehend it.[/i]

ginnyrose:

And if Jesus was not God how can Isa. 43:11 be true: "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside, me there is no savior."

To top it off, Jesus is not the only one in the Bible other than God to be called savior. Upon seeing this, it should become imedietly obvious that this argument falls apart.

------------

Well, this is a long post.

I will say, no one has brought anything up yet that I have not encountered in my study. I pray people to search these things out for themselves and see what the other side of the trinitarian arguments are. Give it a fair trial - see what BOTH sides of the arguments are. I highly suggest looking at the Biblical Unitarian arguments. Just check out a Biblical Unitarian website and search for a verse which you think undoubtedly PROVES that Jesus is God. I bet you'll be surprised.

Thanks to you how are willing to discuss,
Matt

Actually manifest:
make manifest 19, appear 12, manifest 9, show 3, be manifest 2, show (one's) self 2, manifestly declare 1, manifest forth 1

or

1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

a) make actual and visible, realised

b) to make known by teaching

c) to become manifest, be made known

d) of a person

1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear

e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood

1) who and what one is

Ah, the resurgence of the age-old arian heresy. :-?

He_Reigns wrote
_____________________

If one denies the deity of Christ they are teaching an anti-Christ doctrine.

It would not be "too harsh" to say blasphemy is being pushed here now.

_________________________________

I agree completely with He_Reigns. Nile what you are pushing here is wrong. You truly are on dangerous ground, you need to repent. I am praying for you.

Praying for you
Beth

I'd like to hear the unitarian's view on atonement if Christ is not God. Christ is the voice of the Burning Bush in Exodus 3:14 (cf John 8:56) and the vision Isaih saw in Isaiah 6 (cf John 12:38-42)...now why are we having this discussion? ;-)

To deny Christ of His deity is blasphemy.

Nile,

After reading this thread last night, I went to bed with this thread heavily on my mind. Suddenly a few things became clear to me.

Many people have worked hard to dissuade you from your belief that Jesus is not divine. You have frequently said how your belief in this doctrine happened quite suddenly. This is highly unusual UNLESS you are guilty of sin. Only sin can cause a person to want to discredit Jesus for who he says he is. It appears to me you have sin in your life and this is why you work so hard to disprove Jesus.

I have been around the block a few times - I am 60 years old. One thing a person can depend on when he/she apostasies is how he/she will suddenly become so fanciful in their justification of their beliefs. They become ‘scholars’, very skilled in justifying their position, twisting scripture to suit their philosophical bent. They have systematically discarded truth and replaced it with something more to their own liking which blinds them to the realities of TRUTH. It is all self-imposed. I have personally witnessed it among people I know well. And you are no different.

Son, we beg of you to repent while there is yet time...

ginnyrose

ginnyrose,

Thank you for your concern and your post.

Many people have worked hard to dissuade you from your belief that Jesus is not divine.

Working hard to show me wrong would mean understanding what my arguments are and showing them to be wrong. Just quoting verses and spelling out the trinitarian arguments does no good; I know them all and have found them to be quite lacking. Working hard to dissuade me would mean understanding why I find them lacking.

You have frequently said how your belief in this doctrine happened quite suddenly.

This is highly unusual UNLESS you are guilty of sin. Only sin can cause a person to want to discredit Jesus for who he says he is. It appears to me you have sin in your life and this is why you work so hard to disprove Jesus.

Your conclusions are baffling to me!!! Why would sin cause me to deny that Jesus is God? I don't see how it's related at all. I believe Jesus is who He said He was, the Son of God. I don't go beyond the scripture. And try as you might, there is nothing in the Bible that says if I do not believe Jesus is God I am damned.

Rather, the scripture says this:

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is ______, God lives in him, and he in God."

You fill in the blank. (1 John 4:15)

One thing a person can depend on when he/she apostasies is how he/she will suddenly become so fanciful in their justification of their beliefs. They become ‘scholars’, very skilled in justifying their position, twisting scripture to suit their philosophical bent

Now a quiz: Many times Jesus uses the phrase, "I am." Who else in the New Testament uses these exact same words? Are they too claiming to be God? (hint: it will be hard to find the answer in a trinitarian Bible)

Matt

Nile,

Those who wrote the Nicene Creed used the word "person" in describing the Trinity with good reason. Three Persons in existence, loving each other and communicating with each other, before all else was.

If this were not so, we would have a God who needed to create in order to love and communicate. In this scenario God would have needed the universe as much as the universe needed God. But God did not need to create to love and communicate.

Those early Christian forefathers knew this very well in A.D. 325. They didn't invent the doctrine of the Trinity, they simply stressed what the Bible has put forth. They saw that an infinite personal God who is there was the only real answer to the metaphysical problem of existence.

Because God has told us about Himself - that He is the infinite and personal Triune God - we have the [i]only[/i] answer to existence. He has spoken and told us what He is and that He existed before all else, and so we have the answer to the existence of what is.

In Christ,

Ron

Now a quiz: Many times Jesus uses the phrase, "I am." Who else in the New Testament uses these exact same words? Are they too claiming to be God? (hint: it will be hard to find the answer in a trinitarian Bible)

Why would a man of your intellectual stature use this strawman argument...this is a classic case of reductio ad absurdum?

The utilization of the phraseology "I Am" is used in such a way that it denotes equality with God. For example:

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

This staement makes no grammatical sense to the gentile mind, but the jews immediately drew the inference back to Exodus 3-Christ was claiming to be the voice of the burning bush, and I know this by the fact that the Jews tried to stone Him (stoning someone was permitted for blasphemy).

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.

[i]As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?[/i] Joh 10:15-20

[i]Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[/i] Joh 5:18

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[i]Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.[/i] Joh 14:8-12

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Only two people I have talked to have worked hard to prove me wrong, and neither of them are on this forum.

You forget that the onus is upon you, not the other way around, it was yourself that brought all this forward. Nonetheless you are finding yourself up against it by way of dismissing the very divinity of the Lord.

[i]Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no [u]life[/u] in you.[/i] Joh 6:53

Joh 1:4 In him was [b]life[/b]; and the life was the light of men.

[i]Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath [u]eternal life[/u]; and [b]I[/b] will raise him up at the last day.[/i] Joh 6:54

[i][b]I[/b][/i]

[i]He that eateth [b]my[/b] flesh, and drinketh [b]my[/b] blood, dwelleth in [b]me[/b], and [b]I[/b] in him.[/i] Joh 6:56

Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If [b]I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.[/b]

Joh 15:3 Now ye are [b]clean through[/b] the word which I have spoken unto you.

[i] As the living Father hath sent me, and [b]I live by the Father[/b]: so he that eateth [b]me[/b], even he shall live by [b]me[/b].[/i] Joh 6:57

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

[i][b]This is[/b] that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of [b]this bread[/b] shall [u]live[/u] for ever.[/i] Joh 6:58

And if the [b]Spirit[/b] of the [b]one[/b] who raised [b]Jesus[/b] from the dead is [b]living in you[/b], then the [b]one[/b] who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by [b]his Spirit[/b] who lives in you. Rom 8:11

(Do what you will, but here is the doctrine presented in it's fullness, all are represented)

[i]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that [b]I speak[/b] unto you, they are [b]spirit[/b], and they are [b]life[/b].[/i] Joh 6:63

1Co 3:16 You know that you are God's sanctuary and that God's Spirit lives in you, don't you?

Don't you?

If you have no divinity living in you than you are not part of Him.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the [b]Spirit of God[/b] dwell in you. Now if any man have [b]not the Spirit of Christ[/b], he is none of [b]his[/b].

(Again the fullness of the Godhead)

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Col 2:9 [b]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily[/b].

The charge of blasphemy is not without merit here, in fact something to seriously consider ...

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Might this very well be it? (Edit: That is if one were to hold to it ... Joh 17:6, 1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) )

Brother, if it is possible, put this away for a season, put away all your links and arguments and these notions that someone else so well put it ... That by being so immersed in it you cannot see nor hear nor listen to those who love you. I do not belive it is 'our' argument per se and for my part am certainly not coming from the point of a notion that has long been accepted without question rather, what sayeth the scriptures?

Consider.

hi, when Jesus said before abraham was I am....He used the most holy term for a jew to use. so holy it is forbidden,unless it is the truth. either Jesus should be stoned and go to hell or He is God. jimp heb.1 God who at sundry times and diverse mannerspoke...by prophets...in these last days has sokento us by son.Jesus is and always was the language of the father...the Word

wildbranch wrote:
MikeH - Greetings

The Trinity means three (3). Triad. Threesome. Not One (1).

ie. "Tritheism", opposed to "Monotheism"

A remedial course in etymology may help you...

Trinity-a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

Trinitarianism and thritheism are in no way synonymous...this, my friend, is a non-sequitur. If you are going to utilize theological terminology, at least have a modicum of understanding of these terms.

All trinitarians...stay the course...unitarianism is nothing more than the propagation of neo-arianism. Biblical Unitarianism? A misnomer is you ask me :-?

Matt, have you repented and recanted yet?

The "Trinity" is the belief that Three is One and One is Three.....yet....Three are not One and One is not Three.

Trinity:
n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of one and one and one
[syn: three, 3, III, trio, threesome, tierce,
leash, troika, triad, trine, ternary, ternion,
triplet, tercet, terzetto, trey, deuce-ace]
2: the union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost, three persons, in one "Godhead"

Trinity:

A GROUP OF THREE INDIVIDUALS: three, threesome, triad, trine, trio, triple, triumvirate, triune, triunity, troika

Trinity was put forth in the fourth century as follows: "...we worship one God in the trinity, and Trinity in Unity...for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal...he therefore that will be saved must thus think of the trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian creed). The blood of many was shed for refusing to believe that RC doctrine.....even Calvin had his hand in the death of Michael Servatus for not bowing to that creed. :-(

In the Scriptures we read: (a small sampling)

** "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD (YHWH) he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else." Deuteronomy 4:39.
** "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3
**" Ye are my witnesses, saith YHWH, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I , am YHWH; and beside me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11.
** "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:6

Amen

:-(

A Brief Definition of the Trinity

by James White

I know that one of the most oft-repeated questions I have dealt with is, "How does one explain, or even understand, the doctrine of the Trinity?" Indeed, few topics are made such a football by various groups that, normally, claim to be the "only" real religion, and who prey upon Christians as "convert fodder." Be that as it may, when the Christian is faced with a question regarding the Trinity, how might it best be explained?

For me, I know that simplifying the doctrine to its most basic elements has been very important and very useful. When we reduce the discussion to the three clear Biblical teachings that underlie the Trinity, we can move our discussion from the abstract to the concrete Biblical data, and can help those involved in false religions to recognize which of the Biblical teachings it is denying.

We must first remember that very few have a good idea of what the Trinity is in the first place - hence, accuracy in definition will be very important. The doctrine of the Trinity is simply that there is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.

The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.

NOTE: We are not saying that the Father is the Son, or the Son the Spirit, or the Spirit the Father. It is very common for people to misunderstand the doctrine as to mean that we are saying Jesus is the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity does not in any way say this!

The three Biblical doctrines that flow directly into the river that is the Trinity are as follows:

1) There is one and only one God, eternal, immutable.

2) There are three eternal Persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These Persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.

3) The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully deity---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

The three sides of the triangle represent the three Biblical doctrines, as labeled. When one denies any of these three teachings, the other two sides point to the result. Hence, if one denies that there are Three Persons, one is left with the two sides of Full Equality and One God, resulting in the "Oneness" teaching of the United Pentecostal Church and others. If one denies Fully Equality, one is left with Three Persons and One God, resulting in "subordinationism" as seen in Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way International, etc. (though to be perfectly accurate the Witnesses deny all three of the sides in some way---they deny Full Equality (i.e., Jesus is Michael the Archangel), Three Persons (the Holy Spirit is an impersonal, active "force" like electricity) and One God (they say Jesus is "a god"---a lesser divinity than Yahweh; hence they are in reality not monotheists but henotheists). And, if one denies One God, one is left with polytheism, the belief in many gods, as seen clearly in the Mormon Church, the most polytheistic religion I have encountered.

Hopefully these brief thoughts will be of help to you as you "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I will post one last time to say that I have been asked not to post any more on this thread, which I see no reason to go against. Be at peace with all men as much as it is up to you.

Anyone who wants to talk can message me.

Nile

Brother, think rather that the admonishen is one of giving all this a season of rest. Sometimes the greatest thing we can do is to purposefuly distract ourselves from certain penchants that have arrested our thinking.

Perhaps prayer as a item to dig down into the depths of ...

Just a thought brother.

Greetings all :)

The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4, is an important consideration here, as the trinitarian stance relies heavily upon these verses, as they define John 1:1.

Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads, "All things were made by [b]it[/b], and without [b]it[/b], was made nothing that was made. In [b]it[/b] was life, and the life was the light of men." As you can see, Tyndale used [b]"it"[/b] instead of "him." (Uncapitalised) What this tells us is that Tyndale did not read Messiah into the "logos" or "word" of verse 1 and he was not influenced by the Latin Vulgate or Wycliffe. Tyndale had access to Greek text of Erasmus which Wycliffe did not have. (Wycliffe relied on the latin Vulgate of Jerome).

Let's look at the possible Greek meanings of the term logos. The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible defines among the various meanings the following:

Motive
mental faculty
Reasoning
Intent
Thought
Divine Expression

Strongs 3056: (logos/word) reads:
1) of speech

a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

b) what someone has said

1) a word

2) the sayings of God

3) decree, mandate or order

4) of the moral precepts given by God

5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets

6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

c) discourse

1) the act of speaking, speech

2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking

3) a kind or style of speaking

4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction

d) doctrine, teaching

e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative

f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law

g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed

2) its use as respect to the MIND alone

a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating

b) account, i.e. regard, consideration

c) account, i.e. reckoning, score

d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment

e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation

1) reason would

f) reason, cause, ground

Strong's then goes on to give a Doctrinal interpretation of the word:

3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

Note: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe.

thus John 1:1-3 could be read:
In the beginning was the Divine plan/motive/thought, and the Divine plan/motive/thought was with God, and the Divine plan/motive/thought was God. The same (Plan) was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it and without it was not any thing made that was made.

As we can see in this link http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/historic_John1.htm ; The "logos" (word) of John 1:1 is defined as 'speech, oral expression, reasoning, spoken word (including thought)' summarized as 'The oral expression, or Logic' pertaining to YAHWEH. The history of the translation of the verse is documented there.

Peace

In the three Greek New Testaments I have (Byzantine by Robinson and Pierpont, Wescott-Hort, and TR), the word is "auton" which is the masculine form of the third person reflexive pronoun. The proper translation is "him(self)". I don't have Tyndale's Bible or commentary, so I can't comment except that "it" is not correct here. Besides, I'm not sure where you are going this considering Tyndale was a trinitarian and would call what you are teaching heresy.

Furthermore, lexicons can only take you so far. You can't look at all the possible uses of a word and just pick the one you like and force it on the text to fit your theology. You have to look at how it is USED in context. John clearly uses "Logos" as a name, here and elsewhere. And more than one person has posted several quotes from early fathers showing that in the earliest history we have of the scriptures being used, "Logos" was understood to be the preincarnate Christ.

Re: the Greek of John 1

Luther said "the lack of the article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism"

You are preaching Arianism, and another thread we had going a few weeks ago was preaching Sabellianism. Both are heresies that both postdate trinitarian thought and were rejected as heresies shortly after they surfaced (no, not by the RCC...it did not even exist yet).

May I recommend the following website, one of the most thorough treatments on the deity of Christ as understood by NT writers and believers. It was in response to JW's (Arians) teaching that YHWH was omitted from the NT early on in an attempt to "hijack the truth" that they teach.

www.tetragrammaton.org

But be careful...you may just come to believe that Christ really is who He said He was :-D

Now we've got a "plan/motive/thought" descending out of Heaven on a horse ---

LOL! A red-herring if you ask me. Wildbranch, are you positing that Jesus Christ had no ontological subsistence and was merely ideological expression? Lexical aids do not trump context...you are only obfuscating what is already perspicuous in scripture-Jesus is God! :-o Be done with your heterodoxic caprice, my friend and Christ will give thee light.

I have read through a few pages on this thread and I just wanted to say that I love how everyone is handling the situation. There is so much great scripture being covered in detail, and I can truly sense the grace for proper ministry in talking with Nile.
It is always such a blessing to see our brothers and sisters working together so faithfully with our Father's Word.

1 Tim 2:5 says perspicuously : For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

'Scribe 75', I am positing that this man, Christ Jesus, was in the plan and mind of God from the foundation of the world.

1Pet 1:20 : He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of times...But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son”… (Gal. 4:4).

So, as yourself and 'HeReigns' so interpreted my post, we do not have a 'plan/motive/thought' descending from heaven on a white horse, just as we do not have a 'word' descending on a white horse.....

What we do have, however, is the culmination and the manifestation of the great plan and mind of our God--------the ultimate one through whom the Kingdom of God would be brought about----------the perfect and obedient second Adam, Jesus the Messiah. This is the one who will descend on the white horse and tread the winepress of the fury of the Almighty God.

The Greek word for 'word' is lexis.....not logos, despite the use in conventional translation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos.

'HeReigns'....of course there was no 'it' on the cross....Jesus the Christ (ie Jesus the anointed one, ...anointed by his God) died on the cross as part of the plan of the Eternal, Immortal God of the Universe. He was risen from the dead by the power of His God and our God. Acts 13:30: But God raised him from the dead.

YHWH the Almighty God has exalted Messiah to the highest place and given him the name that is above every name.
Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ (lit. "anointed one), and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Evidence that Jesus is not the god/man of mystical hellenized and pagan religions is reiterated by what is NOT said.

As I said before, the first believers on Messiah, for the first 10 years, were almost entirely (if not entirely) Jewish. The apostles were all Jewish. The writers of the NT were Jewish. During these 10 years and the years that followed, there is no record of anyone addressing the issue of this 'new revelation' that the Eternal God of Israel, was actually a 3 person Godhead, who was actually Jesus who had died on the cross. (according to the dogma of Jesus is God).

Not even in Jewish history of the time do we see a record of any variant sect claiming such things, which would have been idolatary and blasphemous to those who understood the basics of the Shema. (Deut.6:4).

Later,when former pagans, steeped in Greek-Roman culture, converted to Christianity they brought with them a pagan understanding of the nature of God.
The concept of the trinity has it origins in the Sumerian/Babylonian triune lunar mother goddess. The Babylonian Trinity included the father, mother and son as exemplified by Baal, Ishtar and the incarnate baby Tammuz.

Trinitarian thinking was solidified as the doctrine of faith for the new church in the 4th century under the authority of Roman Emperor Constantine who continued to serve as the High Priest of the Mystery Sun Religion.

The Trinity in Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning [b]God[/b] created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the [b]Spirit of God[/b] moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God [b]said[/b], Let there be [b]light[/b]: and there was light.

Funny that the first three verses should contain the Father, The Holy Spirit and the Son. For some people the third verse is a stretch, but I think what the EARLY church said about Jesus will clarify this.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the [b]Word,[/b] and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the [b]light[/b] of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In verse three we have the Word of God, the divine Logos, speaking into the darkness, that Word was the life giving force, the Light. So Jesus, the Light and the Logos was there in the beginning of creation, uncreated, working in union with the other two parts of the God Head in the creation of the world.

This isnt' a new teaching, this is Genesis 1. First John wasn't written by gnostics 300 years later, it was written by the Apostle John on the Island of Patmos -it is divine revelation about the nature of God.

To deny this is to deny what God has said about himself.

HeReigns....thank you for the verses. As always context is good, as 'verse wars' can and have been used to proove just about anything under the sun!

John 8: 24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." - This verse says "I am he', and not I AM, which is always jumped on as some mystical code word for trying to read things into the passage. He is speaking about how his Father who sent him into the world, bears witness to him. He goes on to explain that when the son of man is lifted up, they would know that he is the one sent by the Father, who did nothing on his own authority, but only that which the Father taught him.

John 10:30 "I and my Father are One." The meaning of this statement is quite clear in its context, that the Father and son are united in will and purpose, just as Jesus prayed that his followers would be one (John 17:11)

John_2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up and John 10: 17, 18; “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I HAVE RECEIVED from MY Father.”

As Jesus himself said: " And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent".

"Little Gift" said: "Not even in the Jewish history of the time..."! What about the Bible itself? Doesn't that give something of the Jewish history of the time? Jesus claimed equality with God more than once, (as has been shown a number of times, and which you are unable to refute), and see the reaction He got! That's one reason why the Jewish authorities wanted to kill Him!"

NOwhere in the NT does Jesus claim to be the Eternal, Immortal, Creator GOD of Israel. Some like to massage the texts into saying something vaguely like it. Not once is he called, or calls himself, "God the Son".

The authorities wanted to kill him in John 10, where Jesus asked the question, "For which good work are you stoning me?" The Jews answered him, "For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God". Jesus dealt with that accusation by citing the Old Testament, showing that the Hebrew Scriptures were still the supreme authority able to clarify his Messianic claim: "Has it not been written in your Law, "I said you are gods'? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came,...do you say of him (Jesus) whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world. "You are blaspheming,' because I said, "I AM THE SON OF GOD?"

wildbranch wrote:
John 8: 24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." - [b]This verse says "I am he',[/b] and not I AM, which is always jumped on as some mystical code word for trying to read things into the passage.

Dear wildbranch, the word "he" is added, you cannot find it in the original text.

Joh 8:24 I said2036 therefore3767 unto you,5213 that3754 ye shall die599 in1722 your5216 sins:266 for1063 if1437 ye believe4100 not3361 that3754 I1473 am1510 [b]he,[/b] ye shall die599 in1722 your5216 sins.266

wildbranch wrote:
As Jesus himself said: " [b]And this is eternal life,[/b] that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent".

Dear wildbranch,

The Lord Jesus said that He is the very [b]life[/b].

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, [b]I am[/b] the way, the truth, and [b]the life:[/b] no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of [b]the water that [u]I[/u] shall give him[/b] shall never thirst; but [b]the water that [u]I[/u] shall give him[/b] shall be in him a well of water [b]springing up into everlasting life.[/b]

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, [b]let him come [u]unto me,[/u] and drink.[/b]

Compare with:

Jer 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken [b]the LORD, the fountain of living waters. [/b]

Hallelujah!

1Jo 5:12 [b]He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.[/b]

Praise to our Father and Lord Jesus Christ!

Dear wildbranch, what you need is take passages from NT and compare them with OT, compare them and compare, there are hundreds, what a joy you will find! Compare the atributes, titles, acts of Yahweh and Lord Jesus Christ! Don't stop, just compare!

Wildbranch,

If Jesus is not God, then explain...

1.Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.)
2.Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
3.Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1,14)?
4.Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
5.Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was , "...calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God," (John 5:18)?
What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God.
6.How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)?
7.How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?
How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?
8.How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
9.How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
10.How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?
11.How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?
12.How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
13.How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God
in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?
14.How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and "God" also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?
15.How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?
16.How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?
17.How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?
18.Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)
19.In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58.
Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.
19.Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?
20.Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?
21.Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)?

Arianism-a noxious weed in the garden of truth
:-(

Greetings!

HeReigns----------I shall refrain from posting anymore on this subject--------------thank you for informing me that I had to stop, as I was not aware of that. (I thought Nile was requested to stop?).

The truth should never fear examination.

I understand that many here are very concerned and fearful that Nile has 'left the fold' or 'lost his salvation'. This despite the [b]FACT[/b] that the issue of accepting the Trinity, the god-man, the deity of Jesus, the Godhead etc, are [b]never once[/b] preached or taught as salvational issues in the NT. What [b]is[/b] taught, however, is that the man Jesus, the Messiah, has come, and told all men everywhere to "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near".

While the NT does[b] not[/b] teach these things as[b] salvational[/b] issues, many here intimate that they are. Here are a sampling of[i] loving [/i]responses:

from "Poet": you have a millstone to look forward to.
Please stop.

from "HeReigns": This is the foundational doctrine of our Salvation (ie trinity) ...If one denies the deity of Christ they are teaching an anti-Christ doctrine.....It would not be "too harsh" to say blasphemy is being pushed here now......Who gives eternal life Matt? Is it obtained by a life of obedience? Jesus said that He gives it. Have you gone to Him to have eternal life or are you going to have a go at it yourself. I pray that you would do it immediately.

From "whymw": The issue of whether you view Jesus is God is a salvation experience.
Please Nile repent.

From "1another": I agree completely with He_Reigns. Nile what you are pushing here is wrong. You truly are on dangerous ground, you need to repent.

"Scribe" says: To deny Christ of His deity is blasphemy

"Ginnnyrose" It appears to me you have sin in your life and this is why you work so hard to disprove Jesus....Son, we beg of you to repent while there is yet time...

"Little Gift": Nile you have been absorbing deadly poison in the things you've been reading. Spit it out before it kills your soul!

Matt, have you repented and recanted yet? says RevKerrigan

Read the history of the 'church'. They have silenced many with death for not recanting their belief in the absolute oneness of YHWH, and bowing to this dogma. Thankfully, we now have separation of church and state.

I respect that this is a Trinitarian message board ~ thank you for allowing me to post on this subject that means so much to me ~

Peace to you all------In the merit and grace of Yeshua, the Messiah,
unto the glory of YHWH. [b]HalleluYAH![/b]

Amen

Nile said:

Well, no, no one on here has done that. Only two people I have talked to have worked hard to prove me wrong, and neither of them are on this forum. One of them is now convinced the trinity is wrong and I am still discussing with the other.

"One of them is now convinced the trinity is wrong"

Please keep in mind that you have been key in causing someone to stumble!

Jesus Himself said: "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea." Mark 9:42

wildbranch, I pray that you too would take into consideration that you have been led astray and must repent and turn from these false understandings for your own sake, but also for others; lest you too cause stumblings in others!

Hi all!! Interesting thread..There are time when i've opened the bible and been confronted by verses that make me question the trinity, so i understand fully where Nile is coming from,but a question for you Nile..

Is God love,and is love a word of action?

If so,in the infinite time before anything was created,how was that love manifested,and to who?

GB andy