Resurrection, Then the Rapture

Resurrection Then The Rapture
\t
The vast majority of churches, and Christian Ministries teach the doctrine of a Pre-tribulation "rapture". This doctrine is not biblical, and is clearly a false, and deceptive doctrine, causing a false sense of security to the believer. The following scripture clearly teaches something else.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

\tIn the two main scriptures concerning the "rapture" of the Church, it is clearly stated that the dead believers will be raised FIRST.
1TH. 4:16 and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

1 Cor. 15:52 and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

The event preceding the "rapture" is clearly the resurrection of the Saints, which is documented in Revelation 20:4. In Rev. 20:25b the event being discussed is called the FIRST RESURRECTION. Verse 20:4 talks about the "beast" of Revelation 13, clearly indicating the souls represented here at the FIRST RESURRECTION have been in the great tribulation, thus a pre-trib rapture is a false teaching as the "rapture" happens after this resurrection.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

To further illustrate this point, Martha, in John 11:24 speaks of this resurrection to Jesus, and calls it "the resurrection at the last day" further indicating an event long after tribulation has begun.

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

There are only two resurrections spoken of in the scripture, this one immediately preceding the Millennium, and a second one to follow the 1000 year millennium as stated in Revelation 20:5.

Blessings Greg Dagg October 26/2007

hi Smokey ,You are right to use the word unbiblical,just wrong application.
Posttrib is unbiblical for many reasons.
noah
the 10virgins
the marriage supper
the whitehorses
not to mention antichrist kills almost all the christians[who is left for the rapture?]

The false sense of security falls on the post trib side because,remember, hes not comming.......no need to be ready.

.....David

Smokey wrote:
This doctrine is not biblical, and is clearly a false, and deceptive doctrine, causing a false sense of security to the believer.

---------------------------------
This teaching comes from Dispensationalism - a theory which originated with J. N. Darby. Darby was one of the founders of Brethrenism. However, he split with this group to found the Exclusive Brethren, a cult-like group who reject all those who don't hold to Darby's teaching.

The teaching was Americanised through C. I. Scofield, a disciple of James H. Brooks, through whose church Darby propagated his theory of Dispensationalism during his visits to America.

Although Darby's theory of Dispensationalism was rejected in British churches on the grounds of being unbiblical and containing serious error, it seemed to flourish in the USA through Scofield and his disciple Dr. Chafer (Dallas Theological Seminary). It was through Chafer’s Seminary that Dispensationalism spread to many of the American churches, and is sadly, today, accepted without question by many undiscerning believers.

It is indeed a false and deceptive teaching and is now wide-spread in the USA thoughout many denominations. Whilst the British churches rejected dispensationalism in the past, it is again being introduced here through a handful of American fundamentalist missionary-preachers.

Some of the best reading on this subject is found in [i]Backgrounds to Dispensationalism[/i] - Clarence B. Bass; [i]Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth[/i] – John H. Gerstner; and [i]The Millennium[/i] – Loraine Boettner.

Greeting to you from Wales.

I am a bit surprised by the lack of response to this post. Am I to believe almost no one here cares that most of our "shepherds" are teaching false doctrine?

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Blessings Greg :-o

smokey,hi maybe most of the bretheren on si agree with you.
I have ' discussed' this many times and it is always the same outcome.
It would however be refreshing if more posttribs would follow the example of IRONMAN.
you can archive this.
He takes the unusual road[for a posttrib] of refraining from;
namecalling
tim lahaye
some girl in1843
accusations of falsedoctines
and like you,accusing people like me of not being saved
and like you accusing me of bringing damnable herisies.
which is the equivalent of saving even sold out saints are not saved due to your personal curse.

I think the bretheren targeted and the accusers are growing weary of your tactics.

If I were secure in my position why would i need to resort to 'trashing my opponent'

.......David

David

Please, please please show me where I trashed anybody, or called anybody names.

"I think the bretheren targeted and the accusers are growing weary of your tactics."

"If I were secure in my position why would i need to resort to 'trashing my opponent'"

MY TACTICS are merely to point out the error of this doctrine, and are we not called to "trash our opponent"? I am only aware of having one opponent, surely brother you can't be against exposing biblical error when it is so blatent?

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil , and he will flee from you.

Blessings Greg

The event preceding the "rapture" is clearly the resurrection of the Saints, which is documented in Revelation 20:4. In Rev. 20:25b the event being discussed is called the FIRST RESURRECTION. Verse 20:4 talks about the "beast" of Revelation 13, clearly indicating the souls represented here at the FIRST RESURRECTION have been in the great tribulation, thus a pre-trib rapture is a false teaching as the "rapture" happens after this resurrection.

Smokey,

I have a question. How do you explain in Revelation 11, the two witnesses being raised from the dead long before Revelation 20?

Correction made here: Jude 14-

How do you explain the Saints returning with Jesus Christ in Jude 14/ not Revelation 14, long before Revelation 20?

Jude 14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

thus a pre-trib rapture is a false teaching as the "rapture" happens after this resurrection.

I can't imaging a rapture happening [u]after[/u] any resurrection. What would be the purpose?

1 Corinthians 15 give the order:

Christ the first fruit,

Those who are His at His coming,(Rapture)

[u]Then[/u]the Kingdom,for He must Reign til He has put all enemies under Him,the last emeny is death/or the final overthrow of Satan.
That last enemy Satan, will be bound for 1000 years, set loose for a while and then his final judgement. This will be the time of the resurrection of the dead to face judgement along with Satan and the fallen angels.

Only after these events will there be a New Heaven and Earth where there is no more death.

Blessings to you all,

R.G. Benjamin

I think this whole matter hangs on the fact whether people follow the teachings of J. N. Darby/C. I. Scofield or not (i.e. Dispensationalism). For one, I do not. Their teachings are unbiblical and have been proven so without question.

Once we adopt the teachings of men and neglect the truth of Holy Scripture we can be sure to run into grave error and read scripture through spectacles of deception. Undoubtedly Darby and Scofield's teaching are extra biblical and, therefore, unbiblical.

It point is, are we READY to met the Lord when He returns to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth? The Apostle John tells us how to be ready.

“These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”
1 John 2:26-3:3

We need to get out eyes OFF dispensationalism and ONTO Jesus by looking off from ALL things unto Him, the Author and Finisher of faith.

We are warned in Scripture to avoid the doctrines of men, yet it seems to me few pay heed to these warnings.

smokey, hi again,to whom are you referring when you quoted the following?

......teaching false doctrine

Teachers.........damnable herisies......

.....false teachers.....

......pernicious ways......

.............the way of truth shall be evil spoken of

.........False deceptive doctrine

These are your words and by implication , again,who are you referring to?

And in you latest post can i connect 'opponent' and 'resist the devil' to myself?

I certainly hope not!

I think I see why this subect is defunct. We must wade through the mire to get to the debate.

you are not my opponent.
we have opposing views
you are my Brother

Do you also dissagree that i am YOUR brother?

I would hope that I am

....David

RevBenjamin

In response to your post.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mat 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

As you know, there are several other instances where the dead came back to life. However this is not a resurrection, but is just as Rev. 11:11 states, for reasons only God knows, the Spirit of life from God enters them, and they stand on their feet.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

There is no time line on this verse, it could referring to the time at the end of the millennium as refered to in Rev:20:7-8

Book of Enoch
"1
The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be
2
living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.

9
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. "

(EDIT: I do not contend that the book of Enoch has the same authority as scripture, I merely use this example to clarify my answer.)

Again there is no timeline on this, but seems to refer to the same event as in Jude.

You are right in regards to 1 Cor. 15. Jesus is truly the first fruit, being the first to be resurrected. Then those that are His at His coming, which is exactly what 1 Th: 4-16d-17a state.
"and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up"

As to why God chooses to do it this way, I do not know, all I know is that is how He SAYS he will do it, and I don't think it really matters if it makes "sense" to us or not.

Blessings Greg ;-)

Smokey,

I appreciate your response here, with scripture.

I know the word Rapture is not used in scripture, but the word translate is, as was used with Enoch and Elijah.

So, the possibility of the Church being translated out before the wrath of God comes to the wicked is not something that would have to happen [u]after[/u] the first resurrection. What would be the purpose? That was my question.

Enoch may very well represent those who will be translated out.

Immediately after the translation of Enoch, came the wrath of God upon all flesh in the flood, except for Noah and his family. Noah and his family could very well represent those saved during the tribulation period, to replenish the earth during the time of the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Blessings to all,

R.G. Benjamin

Dear saints
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro David as you know, you and i don't agree on this matter but more than that, it is not a thing over which we have to break fellowship. Our Lord will do as He sees fit and will set us straight. You have brought up the parable of the 10 virgins in support of your view, and i was wondering what you would make of this one in luke 12:

[u][b]35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. [/b][/u][b]39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut F33 him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[/b]

i have some questions which i hope someone may help me answer:

1)how come some of the servants aren't at the wedding?
2)at the wedding the master is served but upon His return home, He serves those who are waiting up for Him?
3)who are those who are then given charge over the Master's House because when He returns, He finds them doing what He asked them to do?

if we get caught up before the trib it's all good, but if we are to go through it and we are instead expecting to be caught up then we may have a problem.

we will very soon know when the day of our catching away is. Art Katz said that part of this notion has to do with Israel existing as nation and our erroneous view that this is the Israel of God when it isn't. He proposed, and i concur, that when Israel fails, the pre-tib rapture fails with it. When Israel is again cast out into the nations, we won't be able to say any more that the time is near because we have to await Israel's resettlement per Ezekiel 36. a careful reading of that chapter will let us know that Israel now isn't the Israel of God which we look at as a sign of our leaving this place as being imminent. in the advent of that crisis in the Faith, we will know what manner of Christian we are in our response to it. May we not be weighed on the scales and found wanting.

Grace and PEace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.

bro Benjamin
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Enoch may very well represent those who will be translated out.

you know bro, before we get all happy about Enoch being translated out of here we need to consider what manner of man he was before God that God would so do. do you think you walk as closely to God as Enoch did, or as Elijah did? i ask myself the same question and know i'm not close...Enoch walked with God, not since Adam's time in the garden was such said of any man, do you know what sort of relationship that must have been like? if you're there, God bless you and i have hope that i shall be that close to God.

Immediately after the translation of Enoch, came the wrath of God upon all flesh in the flood, except for Noah and his family. Noah and his family could very well represent those saved during the tribulation period, to replenish the earth during the time of the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Enoch was long gone before Methuselah died. Enoch was 65 when he had methuselah and we know methuselah lived 969 years, longer than anyone else ever did. After Methuselah died, the flood came. Methuselah apparently means "when he dies, it shall come" speaking of the Judgment of God, the length of time between his birth and death is God's Grace period. to use Noah's ark as sign of the rapture i think is dangerous because Noah wasn't saved "from" Judgment as much as he was saved through it and the 2 are different. Noah wasn't caught up like Enoch, Noah heard the screams of those people as the drowned...

it is my belief that the Grace of God is sufficient for us even in the day that He pours out His Wrath, God isn't careless, we will not suffer His Wrath "by mistake", God don't say "oops, my bad didn't mean to zap you" Even when Israel was Judged, Daniel was carried off into captivity in babylon, Ezekiel was also a prisoner and these men are models of Righteousness as God Himself says of Daniel that righteous as he was, he couldn't save his family, not even 1 soul beside himself.

it is also my belief that in adversity is when the truth of what we are comes out, how we handle difficulty shows us how much God has influence in our lives, if we fear adversity, we probably haven't walked with God long/closely enough to know that His Grace is sufficient so we would rather skip the test...if i'm wrong then i'll get caught up too so it's cool, if you're wrong though, there'll be more to eat than crow...you'll have to get in tight with God like never before coz people around you will leave the Faith left and right coz it's too hard...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

IRONMAN

In response to your first question "how come some of the servents aren't at the wedding", has anyone noticed that only the myrtered Saints are said to be resurrected in Rev.20:4??

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This might explain that>>

Blessings Greg

IRONMAN,greetings to you also. The part that says'......looketh not for him............and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers'
He is speaking of his servants.Or believers.
to me this cannot be a post-trib because it would place this event in with Jesus comming with the white horses.
we know from rev. that the wedding proceeds the white horses
As always bro. i enjoy your discussions. you are a man of the word.

...David

bro David
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

IRONMAN,greetings to you also. The part that says'......looketh not for him............and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers'

i am aware of that part, the thing is though He is talking of believers who aren't walking the walk. Note that He says "those servants", perhaps these are those who have knowledge of GOd but deny the power thereof? i was homing in on those servants who were found waiting for Him that He then asks to recline at the table and then He serves them, who are those ones?

i'm not bringing this up for support of the post trib view but curious as to how you view this since it mentions the master and a wedding which He comes back from to His servants.

indeed we know that the wedding precedes the horses but at the same time, if millions (perhaps of believers) can be transformed in the twinling of an eye, i don't think the wedding requires 7 yrs for us to be up there at it, time doesn't pass in the same way in Heaven as it does on earth all the time. The Wedding Feast of the Lamb as the LAmb Himself was, is and is to come.

as always bro your heart comes through and i bless God for your contributions wherever i read them for i hear His Voice in them.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Greetings to you Ironman,

you know bro, before we get all happy about Enoch being translated out of here we need to consider what manner of man he was before God that God would so do.

I believe him to be a man who had a personal relationship with God. It says of Enoch that he walked with God and in Hebrews 11:5 that he pleased God.

I hope everyone that confesses themselves to be Christians ( Disciples of Christ) do indeed have a personal intimate relationship with the Lord.

Anything less would only be religion.

As Christ is in me, and I in Christ, I can see no closer relationship imaginable. Jesus said in John 11:14 & 15 ...I do not call you servants, but *friends*.

As we are the Body of Christ, I believe in Ephesians 5, His Bride(His Church) we can find no closer relationship ever in the history of all eternity and all humanity, who have received the gift of His Grace, His very Life given to us as He laid down His life for us from the foundation of the world.

Yes Brother, I have greatly considered these things. My question to you is, have you?

to use Noah's ark as sign of the rapture i think is dangerous because Noah wasn't saved "from" Judgment as much as he was saved through it and the 2 are different. Noah wasn't caught up like Enoch, Noah heard the screams of those people as the drowned...

I don't believe I used Noah as a sigh of Rapture, but suggested a type of those saved during the tribulation period.

Noah was certainly saved from the judgment God pronounced upon all flesh. Noah and his family were not judged...but saved.

it is also my belief that in adversity is when the truth of what we are comes out, how we handle difficulty shows us how much God has influence in our lives, if we fear adversity, we probably haven't walked with God long/closely enough to know that His Grace is sufficient so we would rather skip the test..

Adversity is and has always been the mark of a true Christian regardless of when he walked upon the earth...from our brother Abel to those going through adversity today.

Now I ask you, if you have submitted to adversity from the moment of your New Birth, aren't you now finding His grace is sufficient? Aren't you now partaking of the fellowship of His sufferings? Those words were written nearly 2000 years ago by the Apostles, for Christians throughout the centuries, not kept in store for the tribulation period.

I don't believe the problem here is Christians being translated out before the wrath of God, but a peculiar understanding of our life as Christians.

If your only objective is suffering Christians may want to escape, my conclusion is any Christian at any time through out the Centuries who want to escape adversity have walked away from the true faith.

Jesus taught adversity to those who are His. The Sermon on the Mount also taught adversity.

I just don't understand your logic here.

Blessings to you,
R.G. Benjamin

IRONMAN,i do ,like you wonder about the 7 year period..It appears that the wrath of God is not poured out untill the last half of the tribulation period.
For now I am pre=trib and am assuming that position. I do feel that I am as ready as I will ever be should I go through the tribulation.
It appears to me either is awesome to the sold out bretheren.

Especially those 2 witnesses with fire comming out of their mouths.

....David

bro Ben
Greetings in JEsus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

indeed anything less than relationship is religion. That we have a close relationship with Christ as His Bride is a Mighty thing and indeed i have sought God on these things as i know you have. However as the Bride, this brings to mind some things about the Husband-wife relationship. i hope that we as Christians love Him enough to endure whatever must be endured on this side. That He suffered such a brutal death testifies to me that such may be required of us and so like JEsus asked JOhn and James, are we willing to drink of that same cup?Such deaths haven't ceased, the happen in China, India, Muslim nations, in Africa, all over the place and we may well be visited with such suddenly. The Bride is also concerned for her Husband's affairs, how concerned are we for His Righteousness, His Favour and to be more like Him?i fear that many of us though being married to Him aren't chaste nor as concerned with His affairs as we ought to be.

indeed Noah wasn't Judged, but he was there to see it and hear it all around him as he was in the ark. i see that as a sign not of rapture in the sense of getting out but being preserved by God in the midst of it all.

Now I ask you, if you have submitted to adversity from the moment of your New Birth, aren't you now finding His grace is sufficient? Aren't you now partaking of the fellowship of His sufferings? Those words were written nearly 2000 years ago by the Apostles, for Christians throughout the centuries, not kept in store for the tribulation period.

i have and am. i am however concerned that some of us limit the suffering to what we endure every day in scourn, ridicule, mistreatment and neglect the physical brutality which often comes with the enemy's attack. The first few are perhaps a bit easier to deal with, but physical pain is another matter. i have found His Grace to be sufficient so much so that i believe it to be sufficient even in the face of such physical torture, it is proven sufficient each day in the stories of the martyrs who die daily for Him and whose stories are recorded. i fear that perhaps we have come to a place where we think that the physical aspect of it may not come to us so if it does, we may be found unprepared or unexpecting it.

I don't believe the problem here is Christians being translated out before the wrath of God, but a peculiar understanding of our life as Christians.

what do you mean bro?

If your only objective is suffering Christians may want to escape, my conclusion is any Christian at any time through out the Centuries who want to escape adversity have walked away from the true faith.

true this has happened.but like you said, adversity has always been the way to prove the Faith, my thing is what if the tribulation period is a time of trying of our Faith to see what sort of Faith it is? it's not that God will pour out judgment on us, we know it is reserved for the enemy, however, the enemy will retaliate against Saints of God and that is the persecution i am thinking will be used to try our Faith in an Ultimate way beyond what we would have endured till then. in the Revelation the word says that the beast went and made war with the Saints of God in Rev 13. who are these Saints? The ones who are martyred in this period along with those who have killed for Him in times past, the ones who didn't take the mark nor worship the beast are those who are found worthy to rule with Him 1000 yrs per Rev 20. Maybe these are those servants that are found waiting for Him when He comes back from the wedding?it is said of them that He puts them in charge of His house?

perhaps some things to consider?

either way i do believe we will find out soon enough and so if i am wrong i'll soon know and repent of it and leave the matter alone. if you're wrong and we find ourselves here what will you do? that's what really matter to me i suppose, what will you do?

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

bro David, Greetings in Jesus' NAme by WHose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

even if the wrath of God is poured out in the last half of the trib, i don't think God is so careless as to afflict His saints with that. so to me we are kept from it even while we're here and it happens all around us. That would be quite a sign to the enemy's minions i'd say.

I do feel that I am as ready as I will ever be should I go through the tribulation.

that's the bottom line for me...

Especially those 2 witnesses with fire comming out of their mouths.

yes that will be something to see, the fire won't be directed toward us though thankfully!

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Good Evening Ironman,

Do you know what I like about you? You admit---"I don't know". I appreciate the honesty coming from you.

We do know the times we are living today. That is really the most important issue here. How many laugh at such a thought. Yes, even those who profess to be God's children have no understanding of what is going on around.

I believe you have a great outlook on the matter, knowing not, but always keeping your mind on Christ. Look up for our Blessed Hope, through life or through death...we know [u]nothing[/u] can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, who will never leave or forsake.

Blessings to you,

R.G. Benjamin

Bump

IRONMAN, concerning your prophecies. Did you see this in a vision or dream and then post what you saw.?

Just courious

David

Oh, and God blees you too!

psalm1 wrote:

For now I am pre=trib and am assuming that position. I do feel that I am as ready as I will ever be should I go through the tribulation.
It appears to me either is awesome to the sold out bretheren.

Especially those 2 witnesses with fire comming out of their mouths.

....David

Great walk. As a post believer, I feel that the outlook that you have should transcend any rapture talk. If we all had this outlook and are prepared regardless, we would have more strong believers.

Bravo on your attitude and faith in the Lord psalm1

Christiaan

bro Dave
Greetings in Jesus' Name by WHose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

our Lord spoke them to me about 2 yrs ago and between then and now i have seen visions and had dreams also.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus'AMEN.

IRONMAN, I was wondering specifically about the 2 cities on the east coast. Was it a dream or vission?

David

Bro Dave
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

i heard it first and then saw it in a vision. i did have dreams and further visions of this in greater detail.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

As you all might have guessed, I believe that this information is important, so I am bumping it back up to give more people a chance to have a look.

Blessings Greg

:-o

Why is the church gone in Rev.5? Why is John suddenly in Heaven chap.5? The word rapture is scriptural, in the Greek it is "taken up"...

c52 wrote:
Why is the church gone in Rev.5? Why is John suddenly in Heaven chap.5? The word rapture is scriptural, in the Greek it is "taken up"...

I don't know if people are debating The rapture, but just whne it takes place.

Christiaan

brethren
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro C52 said this:

Why is the church gone in Rev.5? Why is John suddenly in Heaven chap.5? The word rapture is scriptural, in the Greek it is "taken up"...

where is the Church gone in Rev 5? John is in Heaven because God wanted to show him something which was going on there. now in Rev 7, there is mention of the great multitude which nobody could number and these are the saints of God in full, past, present and future. These are the ones which were Saved by the BLood of Jesus Christ at the time of His being slain from the foundation of the world. Mind you this is all in the context of the tribulation going on so what is going on here? Most of us read the Revelation as though it is Linear and it is to some degree and we can benefit from it but really the Revelation is beyond linear. The way to get all the marrow out of the bone so to speak is to view it from God's Perspective, that is we ought to take our positions in Heavenly Places now as Paul said. We are in Heaven now and if we realize this, we see that the Revelation isn't confusing at all but make perfect sense. Christ was slain from the foundations of the world, that dear saints is the point of our Salvation, that is why John saw the multitude in Heaven in whatever year it was he received the Revelation even though all the people he saw hadn't all been born yet and generations over the course of 2+ millenia still had to come through. in fact Christianity was a flegdling belief then with few members compared to the multitude which no man could number which JOhn saw. God sees past, present and future as being in front of Him in the same moment which is why the Revelation reads as it does with some things seeming out of place or not making sense. it is not that these things are out of place or not making sense but rather we have a wrong view of the word, we're looking at it with carnal eyes and not the eyes of the inner man who sees as God does from on High.AMEN. the Church is in Heaven now, clearly coz Paul said we are seated in Heavenly Places with Christ Jesus, the Church was in Heaven from the point of the slaying of Christ at the foundations of the world and yet we await Christ coming for us. As far as we have experienced things, this makes no sense and it has to be one of the 3 and yet the testimony of scripture is contrary to that, scripture says that it is ALL 3. Likewise the Marriage feast of the Lamb like the Lamb Himself Jesus was, is and is to come all at once. it doesn't need for us to be caught up before the trib or midway because we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye and in Heaven time isn't like what we perceive it to be here. The Marriage feast requires but a moment...all this which has transpired since the Creation is as a moment before God...let us take our places in Heaven and see clearly what God is saying...

really we ought to be aware that suffering of a kind greater than that which was at the first is upon us and if those saints, Paul, Peter and them died for the Faith at the beginning and weren't spared, God's not going to spare us suffering either...We are the terminal generation and if God shined through the suffering of those saints who were at the first, how much more will He shine through those of us who are at the end of the Age?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

glorytoglory wrote:
I don't see a rapture in the bible.

Maybe rapture is the wrong term to use. I myself am post trib.

Christiaan

It just never occured to me intens4him to read it any other way. I was taught to start at the beginning, and that everything after was built on everything that went before. Hmm, maybe my logic professor was even wrong, huh? I'll try that to see what I was missing. Hey, let's begin by placing Genesis between 1st and 2nd Thessalonians and, better yet lets begin at chapter 27 in Genesis. The only problem I have with this marvelous, new technique is deciding in which direction to continue. I'll practice until I get it right...

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is not the J.W.s 144,000. These are those that are not raised from the dead in Christ but are alive in Christ.

144,000 are 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Not the caught up together in the air with the Lord and the dead in Christ.

This is the companion to 1 Thess 4.

1 Corinthians 15:47-58 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Rapture? No, but we will be taken to our heavenly home being prepared for those that are in Christ Jesus, that is His Body the Church, where we are already seated spiritually and will be in the manifestation of the son's of God that all creation longs for, be with the Lord and so shall be be with Him forever. Therefore comfort all the brethren with these words.

In Christ, In the Father, and In the Spirit The Three in One where our heavenly home is, now and future.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

He delivered us, He is delivering us, and He will yet deliver us.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Delivered in Christ Yesterday today and forever:

Phillip

Moe-mac

Moses represents those that have died a natural death, and their spirit/soul has gone into heaven and is present with the Lord. All that remains of his physical body, is still buried in the dust awaiting the resurrection when his body and spirit will be united again. ( I do not have a clue how that is going to work.) Paul explains this in the following verses of scripture.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Also:

1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

In Regards to Elijah, he represents those, as does Enoch, that God chose to bring home to heaven without having to die. I suppose that these two individuals could represent the body of believers that are to be raptured, but I do not know. They clearly were not resurrected, as they have not died. The resurrection is the event when the dead are raised and come before God, some for reward, and some for judgment. If you look at Revelation 20:5, the resurrection that happens just prior to the Millennium, is called "The first Ressurection". This is a massive, event that brings huge numbers of dead Christians before the throne, to be united with Christ, and to rule, and reign with Him for the thousand years. The beginning of the same verse speaks of another ressurection that will follow the 1000 year millennium, that will include all humans that have lived, and were not included in the "First Resurrection" of Rev. 20:5.

Jesus was resurrected, and is called the "first fruit", I believe that God uses the resurrection of Jesus to show His approval of the finished work, and as an example to all that will follow Him of the absolute certainty of our coming resurrection.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

I hope this helps your understanding .

Blessings Greg :-D

moe-mac

I believe that I clearly and biblically answered all your points. If you still choose to believe what you have been taught to believe, that is your right.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Where in scripture is this resurrection that proceeds the rapture, if not in Rev.20:5?

Blessings Greg

Dear Saints Greetings in JEsus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Brethren as you know i tend toward a pre-trib scenario in which the catching away conincides with Jesus' return in the clouds as Paul said. Now i disagree with the pre-tib view because the tribulation is largly viewed as the time of God's Judgement on the wicked which it is but it is also the time in which the Church is most greatly needed to minister to those who are brought to Salvation in those days. God has never taken His people out of a Judgement situation but Poured out Grace to go through it and this time is no different.

The bottom line dear saints is that we are soon to find out. Judgement begins at the House of God as we are the standard bearers and Peter said that the righteous shall scarecly be saved...it doesn't sound to me like this Judgment will be a cakewalk. i do believe some things are poised to happen to us Christians which will prove our Faith and Try it by fire. This has long been happening to the saints in China, the southeast Asian countries, some of the African nations also. At some point we here in the west will have to endure not only discrimination or laws which target us but even imprisonment, torture, death and so on in following with the suffering which Jesus endured. it is this suffering which will make the Jew jealous such that he comes to repentance and JEsus. The bible doesn't say only 144000 Jews will be saved, in Zechariah the word says that 2/3 will be cut off and the remaining 3rd will be tried by fire, that's more than 144000...also these must experience God through the Ministry of His Church. until the Church makes Israel Jealous, we ain't going nowhere and more than anything we have been enabling Israel's continued rebellion against God by coddling her and more importantly by not carrying God in a manner which will make Israel jealous and want to have interest in God. Jacob has a knack for seeing through pretense and one of the reasons which has him disinterested in the things of God is that we the Church haven't represented God as we ought. instead Japheth has oft used GOd as means to gain wealth/influence and power and Jacob even in his rebellion now sees through that ruse...Saints i believe like Art Katz but more importantly i believe this is the Heart of God on this matter, that our suffering in the trial of fire which is the tribulation at the hands of the agents of the enemy in tending to Jacob as he runs from the destruction of Israel which is soon coming is what will make him jealous. He will remember Him that he pierced because Jacob will see Him in our faces, in our homes in our Loving of he who is unloveable, and then will Jacob repent and be Saved.AMEN.

Many people believe that Israel as she stands now is fulfilment of Ezekiel 36 and so many believe that the rapture is soon because Israel is in existance. Saints this isn't the Israel of God, this man's attempt which God is setting up to destroy at the hands of the Muslim. dear saints, read carefully and prayerfull Ezekiel 36 and you will see clearly that the picture portrayed of Israel in that chapter is vastly different from what we know as Israel now...When she falls, how then will we be able to say the rapture is near?

i believe our understanding of what ISrael is, what America is and indeed the state of His Church is about to be revised in Judgment. We have largly not come to terms with God as Judge...we're about to meet the so-called O.T. God...

may we NOT be found wanting nor unable to abide the fire by His Grace.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

p.s. this is a thread bro Rahman started on the Church in America and it asks some rather pointed questions. if you feel led to, check it out [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20456&forum=35&11]here, Are we smoke and no Fire?[/url]

bro Moe
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

i read what you had written as though you implied that only 144000 would be saved and i don't believe that to be the case. indeed there are 144000 who are sealed from each tribe, of that we can be sure. however that isn't the total number in that these 144000 do minister to their brethren i believe. these may be the very first of all the Jews who are converted in that period. to me there is something unique of this group hence the prominent mention of them. also i think it is important to note that not everyone who lives through the trib will take the mark either:

from Rev 20:

[b][color=0000FF]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;[/color][/b]

so some are killed for not taking the mark, others don't take the mark but remain alive at His return. these make up part of those who rule with Christ 1000 yrs, these are among those killed for Him over the ages.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

bro Moe Greetings in Jesus' Name by WHose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

indeed all Israel will be saved. however that doesn't change that not everyone in the trib will take the mark, Rev 20 clearly says that, it says also that those who come through the trib will make up some of the ones who Rule with Jesus 1000 yrs.

Rev 20 vs4:

[b][color=0000FF]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;[/color][/b]

there are some who don't take the mark of the beast, nor bow before it and they reign with Christ. also i do believe that something as momentous as the Church being caught up would have been mentioned quite plainly in the context of the 144000. also Rev 20 vs 4 says that this is the first resurrection...when Paul talks of the catching away, he says the dead in Christ shall rise first. There is no resurrection mentioned elsewhere in the Revelation like this except the first one which happens at His return in Rev 20. There is a second resurrection also after the 1000 yrs in which the rest of the dead are raised up and Judged. if the whole Church has been caught up, how come the book of Life is mentioned and it is plain that there are some among the dead written therein?

as for the full number of Gentiles coming in, that doesn't usher in the rapture, Paul doesn't say that. The purpose of saving the Gentiles is that God may bring the Jews to Jealousy, we as the Church ought to carry God in a way which will draw the Jew into Jesus. Also in the letters to the 7 Churches, there is no mention of the whole Church being caught up because there are things which 5 of those Churches need to repent of. yes i know Smyrna is said to be saved from the hour of trial which is coming upon the world but the word kept there means being kept through not out of it...

The tribulation represents for the Church of Christ a period of ultimate trying to prove our faith to be genuine or not. the judgements of God will not be poured out on us, but the enemy will sure persecute us in response to God's judgement on him and his.God did not spare Paul, Peter and the early Church the persecutions of those days, at the beginning of the age, He shined through them as they endured, how much more do you think He wants to shine through us at the end of the age?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

I am fairly new to posting on these forums but am intensely interested in seeing this discussion adding my comments on another thread along the same lines. I would not dare disparage another brother or sister’s walk with Christ because we do not see eye to eye on this subject, but I do believe there is going to be such great disillusionment and despair and departing from the faith because of those whose expectations were not fulfilled. It is not just a doctrinal issue, and will not be just a doctrinal issue. As Corrie ten Boon and many others like her, and the many Jews who endured the holocaust, it was a matter of faith or absolute apostasy. Many of us have had tests of faith, but I dare say that very few of us have had anything like the kind of faith that will be required when those whom we love are put into the kind of position that many have already been in around the world, and like those during so many of the times of the history of Israel so plainly chronicled in the writings of Jeremiah. I had an experience several years ago which I will not take the time to go into in which my faith was tested, and having been reared in the pre-trib tradition, I was praying for the Lord to soon come and take me out of all this mess. I had a dream, and as I said on an earlier post, those who have a dream let them tell the dream, but the Word of God is our bread and our proofs, not dreams and visions. I thank God for the dream however because it made me start searching the scripture diligently. I talked to my pastor who had been a pre-trib preacher. He was honest enough to tell me that he had some questions of his own and asked me to pray about it, to do my research and he would as well and we would come back together in about a month to talk about it. In the meantime, about three weeks later he preached his first message that gently prepared the congregation for the possibility that what we had believed on the subject was a mistake. And for years we researched and compared notes. These abundantly simple observations that follow are just a few to add to the excellent study that has already been presented. And let me also add, that I appreciate so very much the spirit and attitude of the vast majority that post on SI. May God raise up a host of sincere seekers of the truth like those referred to in the Acts that seek to know whether what they have heard or read is the truth. Too bad, sometimes, just because of name recognition, or prominence, whatever is preached is swallowed like fish bait. There is far too much at stake for that kind of loyalty.

Jesus said in the context of prayer these words:
Luke 18:6 - 8 (NKJV) 6Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long (delay long) with them? 8I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
It is apparent from the last verse in this parable that it is about more than prayer. In fact the whole context is pleading with a judge for justice. But then He ends the parable with a reference to His returning and the very consistent message that is found all through every reference to the end times, in relation to apostasy “when the Son of Man comes”. There is certainly room for debate in many of the parables where those who want to take the pre-trib side but in each of the parables regarding “the when” (Greek tote- at that time), there is the sense of delay. There is the servant that begins to beat his fellow servants because he says the Lord delays his coming. The parable of the 10 virgins finds all of them asleep with only half of them sleeping prepared, the others frantically trying too little, too late, but the call is at midnight, the darkest hour.

The use of the illustration of Noah and of Lot, certainly does not indicate an escape from tribulation (see my other post on that subject) but ONLY from the wrath of God, and that escape is only at the time of final annihilation of the wicked and only after every means of mercy has been totally exhausted. The same is true of the Egyptians and the Children of Israel. Israel passes over the Red Sea while simultaneously the Egyptians are destroyed, and that only after all the years of tribulations alongside of the judgments of God, where God makes a distinction at one point between those in Goshen (which means “drawing near”) and the Egyptians, leading up to that final devastating judgment (of which there are plenty of parallels in the Revelation) in which only those covered by the blood escape… led out as a victorious army without having to fire a shot. There is the parallel of Daniel. He and his companions were certainly not saved out of tribulation but saved in it whereas those who were trying to deliver them into tribulations were destroyed. Even (and how can you escape this parallel) during the image of the “beast” being set up and a command given to bow down and worship the image… the saints were commanded to bow but refused to bow. The tribulation times are prophesied in Daniel and he and his companions illustrated the faith that will be required for us to endure it.

I said in the other post, but will repeat it briefly; “tribulation” is the appointment of saints of God. There is a vast difference between the wrath of God to which His children are not appointed, and the wrath of man and the wrath of the devil to which we have always been appointed, which is the very essence of tribulation. Tribulation is the appointment of the saints of God, not the world. The world as in Judges and all through the history of the Israel is the tribulum that separates the chaff from the wheat, the faithful remnant from the majority. It was the majority (of Judah) that refused to believe the tribulation that was coming, that gave Jeremiah such a hard time. But it was the believing minority represented by Daniel, and the Hebrew children that prepared themselves for the captivity/tribulation to come by purposing in their hearts that they would not be defiled.

What in the world would be the point of all the warnings in Daniel and the Revelation not to mention the gospels for a world that does not believe the Word of God or have any intention of worshipping the Lamb of God, but will most definitely take the mark. My the world and the worldly church member already is so mired in “eating, drinking, marrying (or the alternatives)… buying, selling, and wrapped up in sports, entertainment, and etc. so much so that NOW they would not dare give up a $2 raise to be in the house of God. Any of the above is excuse enough to put God at the bottom of the list of priorities. What will keep them from taking the mark?

And then there is the question of “who are the elect”?
Matthew 24:24 - 25 (NKJV) 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.

Matthew 24:30 - 31 (KJV) 30And then (tote) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Are we to suddenly relegate the “elect” to the Jews at this point in the narrative as I have heard some do, whereas there are all those many scriptures that give that title to those of us who have heard and obeyed the Gospel? Such as the favorite of so many: Romans 8:33fl. It is abundantly evident that God’s elect in Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2, and etc. are the saved. But then this scripture clearly tells us the ‘when’ they will be gathered. It is “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24).

Then there is the subject of how He is coming that I do not believe I have seen in these posts… and that is in clouds:
Acts 1:9 - 11 (KJV) 9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Matthew 24:29 - 30 (KJV) 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. See also Mark 13:24-26.

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) 7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 14:14 - 15 (KJV) 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Then there is that thorny issue of the Last Trumpet and the significance of trumpets throughout the Word of God for those who are willing to spend the time studying it.
Matthew 24:31 (KJV) 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:51 - 52 (KJV) 51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 8:2 (KJV) 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Which one is the LAST ONE? Thank God I know about one in the Old Testament and I “sho nuff” know what it means…JUBILEE!

There was the sound of the trumpet on the seventh day, on the seventh round, while the Children of Israel were marching around Jericho… and that trumpet was the trumpet of victory over their enemy.

The trumpets were sounded to gather the people together, to prepare for war, to declare the end of war, and etc. I suspect in this case, just as in 1 Samuel 13:3,
2 Samuel 2: 28, 2 Samuel 15:10 (wups, he like the antichrist blew his horn too early), 2 Samuel 18:16, and so forth, the trumpet that is going to gather us in is the one sounding the end of battle… the trumpet of triumph.

Then there is the question of how many times the Lord is going to come back.
Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This verses ties all that is above together:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 17 (KJV) 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Clint