Holy Spirit.

Did Israel, during Moses time, receive the Holy Spirit?

DHL wrote:
Did Israel, during Moses time, receive the Holy Spirit?

DHL,

Hope this link helps with your question.

http://www.bible.org/print_page.php?page_id=2124

Thank you brother,

That was a very informative Link. God bless.

There is one verse from the link that stuck to my mind.

Isaiah 63:10-11 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying: "Where is He who brought them up out of the sea With the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them.

When Isaiah said: But they rebelled.

I ask you, what was this rebellion about?

and are we today, at the risk of doing the very same thing?

God put His Holy Spirit in them, and yet they grieved it. and God fought against them.

this is a very scarry thought to me, having God fighting against me.

Hi DHL,
You are very welcome.

I ask you, what was this rebellion about?

Unbelief,

and are we today, at the risk of doing the very same thing?

Yes, if we look at anything other than the Word, and take our eyes off our example to follow, Jesus Christ.

this is a very scarry thought to me, having God fighting against me.

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Trust and obey, for there is know other way to be happy in Jesus, but to Trust and Obey.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Stephen said this of the many generations preceding Pentecost...

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

What does it mean for the individual to resist the Holy Spirit?

Why were their hearts not circumcised?

James speaks of the same...

James 3:

5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?

James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
\t“God resists the proud,
\tBut gives grace to the humble.”

Here we see that James indicates that in the OT Scriptures, teach that the Spirit in us yearns jealously against our fleshly desires.

Likewise Peter declares of the OT prophets..

1Pet. 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Then we have this in Proverbs...

Proverbs 1:

20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

In verse 23 God promises to pour out His Spirit on them who repent. The outcome of this grace by God is to "make" His "words known to you."

This is the same outcome that was experienced when the Spirit of God was "poured out" on them. They proceeded to speak the words of God.

There are many examples of the mystery of God working in the OT saint to preserve them by grace. Just look at last weeks Revival Conference...all the preachers posted thus far taught NT life out of the OT Scriptures....

God Bless
Your brother in Christ
Jeff

dorcas wrote:

Jeff said

all the preachers posted thus far taught NT life out of the OT Scriptures....

Well of course. But it wasn't 'life' as we know it... was it?

Luke 24
25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning [u]Himself[/u].

Hi dorcas,

Good question,

Was not their obidience, which could only come about by the Spirit, counted unto them for righteousness? Is not our obedience to the wooing of the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Word, which leads us to 'poor in spirit'
accepting Jesus Christ; both given life by the same Spirit.
In other words, it is the same Spirit that gave both, Life. Is it the same Life?

In His Love
pastorfrin

I think it is difficult to understand the Holy Spirit with the human mind.
In the ot the saints operated in more of a defined existance or walk. They had the law the priesthood and atonement. It was almost like communism. The government took care of them.
There was not a whole lot to understand.
They saw things 'one dimensional.'

This is why you see Jesus saying "you have heard it said"......."but i say unto you......"
Now we have the Kingdom of God at hand, which is deeper than the law.
Jesus showed us we break the law with our mind.
Holiness is inward and outward.[2 dimensional]
The trinity [including the Holy Spirit] is not one dimensional.
So we will never be able to understand the Holy Spirit on a one dimensional level.

ex; How can Christ be in us and seated at the right hand of the father.[at the same time]

You may disagree with me but when i read heb.11;39-40,I see the entire purposes of God placed squarely in the lap of the last days saints,...us,you and me....."That they without us should not be made perfect"
This is mind boggling!!!!

Holy Spirit come. Habitate in us. Indwell us. Empower us. Help us to surrender all and take our place in the army of God. Having no thought for ourselves, but singleminded FOR YOUR PURPOSES.

AMEN

Quote:

""ex; How can Christ be in us and seated at the right hand of the father.[at the same time"".

A Morman woman ask me the same question and I gave her the same answer and she went running down the driveway screaming, blasphemer.

Answer:
The same way Jesus could say that He and His Father are One, when Jesus is on earth and The
Father is in heaven. The same goes for us in Christ and Christ in us.

John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Christ liveth in me: Phillip

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

By His Faith I believe that He liveth in me, and has made me a new creature and new creation race of the son's and daughter's of God in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I,
(((((( but Christ liveth in me:))))))) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

And you also:

Sis quoted this Scripture...

27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

I wonder how much we ourselves are ignorant of the full revelation that Jesus gave these two individuals. The testimony that I hear from most christians today is that they find the OT boring and of little importance. I too once testified in like manner. But God sent a messenger to me who corrected me by saying, "I live in the OT for that is where I find the mystery of God revealed."

I would exhort everyone to look for the "fruits of the Spirit" in the OT saints.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Jeannette wrote:

The only significant differences are that the OT prophets were looking forwards and we are looking back; and that the outpouring and fullness of the Spirit at Pentecost wasn't "rationed", as in OT times, to a special few. To Jesus the Spirit is given "without measure", which wasn't true then.

Listen to the promise that was available to those who turned at God's rebuke...

Proverbs 1:

23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

What does it mean for those who obey? What does it mean to those who hear His voice?

Rom. 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And who heard His voice?

Heb. 11:32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

How many live this kind of life in western civilization today?

Just a thought

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

The situation going on is not about the New Birth. Reading the verses before between and after the ones you placed here will show that the Prophets only prophesied when the Spirit of the Lord was UPON them.

How often do you or others you know prophesy? Do you always have at your disposal the ability to prophesy?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

By His Faith I believe that He liveth in me, and has made me a new creature and new creation race of the son's and daughter's of God in Christ Jesus.

Is this different from what those 120 souls experienced on the day of Pentecost?

In Christ
Jeff

I pray you truly understand these:

Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Quote:

""Is this different from what those 120 souls experienced on the day of Pentecost?""

No different but they did not know it or Jesus would no have chosen Paul to bring the Truth of Christ in them.

Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Acts 22:11-15 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Paul's Gospel:

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

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Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Colossians 1:24-28 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Only One can make us perfect, that is of which is "Christ in you the hope of glory".

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

I pray you truly understand these:

Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The promise spoken here is the ressurection.

No different but they did not know it or Jesus would no have chosen Paul to bring the Truth of Christ in them.

David knew that Jesus was his Lord...

Psa. 110:1 \tThe LORD said to my Lord,
\t“Sit at My right hand,
\tTill I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

The gospel never changed from the foundation of the world. Jesus is Lord over all creation....from beginning to the end. He is our High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Do you acknowledge Christ in the OT?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

No different but they did not know it or Jesus would no have chosen Paul to bring the Truth of Christ in them.

Were they born again?

If so, what did the Spirit teach them?

In Christ
Jeff

Quote:
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No different but they did not know it or Jesus would no have chosen Paul to bring the Truth of Christ in them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Were they born again?

If so, what did the Spirit teach them?

In Christ
Jeff

Yes, but did not know that Christ was in them and their new life.

John 14:26-31 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Has it come to pass, is He in you? Are you dead to sin, are you alive in Christ, Did you die on the Cross with Him, as Paul saw Himself crucified with Him and living in His Faith unto the Glory of God.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Presenting every man perfect in Christ, Preaching by the Holy Spirit, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, That the birth of Christ has come to each one that believes that He is the Son of God, second birth, Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Phillip

Has it come to pass, is He in you? Are you dead to sin, are you alive in Christ, Did you die on the Cross with Him, as Paul saw Himself crucified with Him and living in His Faith unto the Glory of God.

This is how I recognize my life in Him...

Phil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

2Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Are you of like mind with Paul when he says....2Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

In Christ
Jeff

1 John 4:17-19 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: ((((((because as He is, so are we in this world.))))) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us.

What does it mean, "as He is, so are we

Brother Phillip,

1John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

John writes that God abides in us, "because He has given us of His Spirit."

He who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. So we who walk in the light as He is in the light, the love of God is perfected in him.

The Son loved the Father because He followed the Holy Spirit. Likewise we too will learn to love the Father as the Son whom He sent.

2 Corinthians 5:

18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Christ teaches us to love the Father through the power of the Holy Ghost.

What do think, are we learning from Him?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

Jeff, there is Prophecy and Prophesy. There are no NEW propheCies, yet to PropheSy is to exhort and build up. It is a Gift given to the Body of Christ for the Body of Christ.

I was refering to how the Spirit of God came upon King Saul and he prophisied. Likewise, at Pentecost Scripture states...

Acts 2:

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Then Peter identifies this action of the Spirit with the Scripture...

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 \t“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
\tThat I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
\tYour sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
\tYour young men shall see visions,
\tYour old men shall dream dreams.

Here we see that Joel who is inspired by the Holy Spirit writes..."That I will pour out of My Spirit ((((on)))) all flesh....your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..."

You see according to Scripture there is no difference in what happened to those at Pentecost who were filled with the Spirit and those who also prophesied and saw visions when the Spirit was pour out on them.

In terms of Prophesy we know that it speaks of future events but also of past events. Have you ever considered what God prophesied to King Ahaz and how that was a sign meant for him in his generation?

Is. 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”

Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!”

Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Do you see that there are two prophesies here, one would be for Ahaz and one would be for the generation of Peter.

Just some thoughts.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

sister Katy wrote;

Jesus Christ fully God/ fully Man did not exist in the OT. He was the Messiah they were looking forward to .

I believe that is why Scripture refers to Melchizedek in this way....

Hebrews 7: 3 "..but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

Notice the words "like the Son of God,"

Dan. 3:25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

Notice the words "like the Son of God."

Jesus is the Messiah in all generations...because

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Whether it was Daniel or Abraham or Paul, it was Jesus who is the Sent One.

Just a thought

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Katy-did said----------quote: "Even in John 8 Jesus said of Abraham (who was NOT under Law) "Abraham rejoiced to see MY DAY, he saw it and was glad".

Just a note about that, referring to Genesis 26:5 .... "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws".

(Thanks. I know it is aside from the general theme of your address)

Katy-did---------When you say the "Law of Moses", do you mean the "Law of God"? Just asking as some feel they are different.

Yes, Abraham did live by faith, and, as the scripture says - "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws".

Just as James says ...'faith without works is dead'... and ...'I by my works will show you my faith'...and speaking of Abraham...

James says in ch 2.....from verse 21: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

Dorcas asked------quote"Hi wildbranch, Please would you define 'law of God' and offer some scriptural support?

Dorcas, I will post some verses which reflect what I was thinking by the "Law of God". They basically emphasise that the Law of Moses is the same as the Law of God -the Law handed down by Moses from God.

Malachi 4:4 'Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments'.

Leviticus 26:46: “These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which YHWH made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.”

∙Numbers 36:13: “These are the commandments and the judgments, which YHWH commanded by the hand of Moses unto the children of Israel in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho.”

∙Judges 3:4: “And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of YHWH, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.”

∙1Kings 2:3: “And keep the charge of YHWH your God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do, and whithersoever you turn yourself.”

∙2Chronicles 35:6: “So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of YHWH by the hand of Moses.”

∙Nehemiah 9:13-14: “You came down also upon mount Sinai, and spake with them from heaven, and gave them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments. And made known unto them your holy sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses your servant.”

------The Scriptures talk of Moses’ law because he handed them down from YHWH; in fact, the law originated with YHWH...

We read in 1Kings 2:3: “And keep the charge of YHWH your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses…”

Further in 2Kings 14:6 we find: “But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the law of Moses, wherein YHWH commanded…”

Ezra 7:6 says: “This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which YHWH , God of Israel had given.”

Nehemiah 8:1 tells us: “And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring Feast Days and Sabbaths of the law of Moses, which YHWH had commanded to Israel.”

.....just a quick selection of the many references in scripture.

Dorcas wrote: "However, I notice you have offered only verses which refer to the law handed down to Moses. .................

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
As these are all Paul's words, who elsewhere reminds Jews not to trust in... no, not to practise keeping... Moses' law, 'the law of God' must be something different."

Hi Dorcas,

I am not sure what you mean? The law of God is spiritual, thus the carnal mind is in enmity against God, because it is in rebellion to the law of God, and will not be subject to it. The carnal mind hates God's laws, statutes and commandments, and would have none of it. (we see what has happened in our society at large today, they have absolutely rejected the laws of God and embraced lawlessness, because they are in enmity to God).

Where does Paul remind Jews not to practice keeping Moses' law, which according to scripture (my previous post), was the very same thing as God's Law. How would it be possible for an apostle to overturn the Law of God (as delivered by Moses), when the Messiah himself upheld it? The book of Hebrews does explain in depth how the sacrifical and ceremonial law is no longer required, as Messiah himself has become the propitiation for our sins and a faithful High Priest on our behalf. The works of slaughtering and burning animals are no longer required, because they are redundant.

When you said that we must not keep Moses' law---what law is that? Do you believe that to be certain laws that were made up by Moses, apart from God?

When David extolled the law and expressed his delight and love for the law throughout Psalm 119, what law was he talking about? I do not see how one can take away from God's Law (delivered by Moses), by urging people to reject it . Yeshua clearly stated that we cannot relax even the least of the commandments, that in fact our righteousness has to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5). It says in Acts 7:38, that Moses received 'living oracles' to give to the people. The living oracles came from God, not Moses.

Thanks!

2 Corinthians 3:1-18 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

(This tables of stone are not written in tables of stone. That is the Law and commandments given to Moses. But by the Christ in us written in the tables of the heart. He is not written by Ink, or on stone, but by the Spirit of Christ in the Heart. The new creature.)

And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;

Brought as life in Christ, Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

(The law of Moses and the commandments written in stone, (10 commandments) kills and condemns. There is no salvation in them. They only bring us to Christ Gloriously to a better ministration of the Spirit in Christ Jesus who is born again in the believer to condemn and abolish all that interferes with the New Testament in The Blood of Christ.)

was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory,

(The ministration of the Law unto condemnation and death in itself is Glorious because it is the Law of God. But so much more is the ministration of the Spirit of Christ in you. A new and different way God has provided for those that are in Christ Jesus, saved to the utmost for all eternity.)

much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious,

(The Law was done away at the Cross because it was fulfilled by One Man Jesus Christ fulfilling all the requirements God required, so man might be saved By Him that is birthed in us, Jesus Christ the Son of God.)

much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

(Of that which is abolished. Or rather, to be abolished, (tou katargoumenou;) whose nature, design, and intention it was that it should be abolished. It was never designed to be permanent; and Paul speaks of it here as a thing that was known and indisputable that the Mosaic institutions were designed to be abolished.)

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

(They still work the Law that has been abolished in Christ Jesus to make Israel pleasing in the sight of God, which is not. If they turn to Jesus Christ the Vail is taken away and the glorious light of the Gospel shines in the darkness.)

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 13:10-13 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

(Is He come, do you see face to face, are we learning to live in Christ who is faith, hope and Love.)

2Cr 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

(Christ abolished the death of the Law at the Cross and we are no longer under the old Law but under the new commandments, Love God with a pure heart which is Christ in you the hope of Glory. Love your neighbor as your self. These are the two that remain, not the letter but the Spirit of all that God intends in Christ Jesus our Lord.)

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

(These two commandments are Jesus Christ Himself.
Let us strive by the life of Christ that is in us to: Romans 12:1-3 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.)

Christ liveth in me: Phillip

Sister Katy wrote;

The Spirit and Person of Christ in us is that which unites us in His death and resurrection Life. It is the Spirit of Obedience, Surrender, Suffering, conforminng us to His Image, working in us and through us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (That I may KNOW Him and the fellowship of His sufferings being made conformable to his death that I may attain to the resurrection) It is the Spirit of Christ in us...full of Grace and Truth. THIS is OUR life under Grace. Grace is Calvary...the resurrection side. We are Saved by His RISEN life.

Have you yet considered Isaiah prophesy given to King Ahaz?

Have you yet considered how Scripture refers to Melchizedek and the fourth person found in the furnace with Shadrack, Mishack, and Adbendago? "one like the Son of God"

Do you suppose that Melchizedek was there in the furnace?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Quote:

Have you yet considered Isaiah prophesy given to King Ahaz?

"""Have you yet considered how Scripture refers to Melchizedek and the fourth person found in the furnace with Shadrack, Mishack, and Adbendago? "one like the Son of God"

Do you suppose that Melchizedek was there in the furnace?

((It does not say Melchizedek was in the furnace any where in scripture))

Your brother in Christ
Jeff"""

Why would we want to consider these when we have Jesus Christ unvailed. These have no life in them only a picture pointing to the Life in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:3-4 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

Those in the old testament are wonderful stories pertaining to how God dealt with Israel but they have nothing to do with the life of Christ which we now have in hand unvailed.

2 Corinthians 3:5-8 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather more glorious?

Our glory will never fade because it the Christ in us the Hope of Glory.

That which is the old is done away with that the new might exceed the old for a more glorious life that is available in Christ Jesus the Lord who is now our birthed again life.

2 Corinthians 3:9-11 For if the ministration of condemnation (old)be glory, much more doth the ministration of (new)righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Who is our righteousness? 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Why run back into the old when the new is so much more glory in Christ which is Christ in you.

2 Corinthians 3:11-12 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Take the Vail off your eyes and come to the unvailed heart of Christ life that is within you.

2 Corinthians 3:13-15 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

What is abolished? "For until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ."

This is now our glory. 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The old glory is done away with, behold the new.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Have you considered the unvailed Christ this side of the Cross?

Christ worketh in me and you mightily: Phillip

Katy-did, you asked: "Jeff and Wildbranch,
I'd like to ask you both a question based on YOUR believing Jesus Christ existed in the OT."

Speaking for myself, I do not believe that Jesus Christ existed in the OT.

As for the "An eye for an Eye and a tooth for a tooth"........here I believe that Messiah came to "magnify the law and make it glorious" Is 42:21 I think the Pharisees had twisted the original justice taught in the Torah, and were using this teaching as a means of retaliation, and not true justice. Yeshua rebuked that. Today we still expect true and righteous justice to be handed out in our courts.

Thanks

Christinyou--------------Thanks for that posting. I absolutely believe that salvation is found by faith and trust in Yeshua alone, and that..."He blotted out the handwriting (5498) of ordinances that were against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross".

**ordinances: 5498 cheirographon; AV - handwriting 1; Definition: something handwritten; a legal document or bond; a note acknowledging money either deposited or lent. (i.e. the wages of sin, our death sentence).

I also believe that when we come to Yhwh through the only way, Yeshua Messiah, repent and turn away from sin, He will enable us by the power of the Holy Spirit to follow in His ways.
As the apostle John says: "If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that every one who does right is born of him"
Also, he says in 1 John: "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments...He who says "I know Him" but disobeys his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him....he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked" (obedience)
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NT definition of 'sin':--------

-----1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.-----

*458 ~anomia~ iniquity 12, unrighteousness 1, transgress the law + 4160 1, transgression of the law 1; total 15. Definition: the condition of without law because ignorant of it or violating it contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness.
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Here we see some examples of sin/lawlessness/iniquity mentioned in the NT with the word anomia (against the Law) is found in the Greek.

--Mat 7:23 Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work (anomia) to transgress the Law.

--Mt. 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which (anomia) transgress the Law, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

--Mt. 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and (anomia) transgression of the law.

--Mt 24:12 And because (anomia) transgression of the law shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

--Ro. 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose (anomia) transgressions of the law are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

--Ro 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to (anomia) transgression of the law unto transgression of the law ; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

--2 Co. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with (anomia) transgressions of the law ? and what communion hath light with darkness? 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith Yhwh, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

--2Th 2:7 For the mystery of the (anomia) transgression of the law doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

--Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all (anomia) transgressions of the law, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

--Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated (anomia) transgressions of the law; therefore Yahweh, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

-Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their (anomia) transgression of the law will I remember no more.

--Heb 10:17 And their sins and (anomia) transgressions of the law will I remember no more.
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Satan hates commandment keepers. Rev 12:17 says, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of the God, and have the testimony of Yeshua Messiah".
***
Ps 19:7-8 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb
***
It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law" (Ps 119:126).
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PS...Christinyou...........do you agree with those who have abolished the ten commandments from courtrooms and schools in North America?

Christinyou said:---------------quote: "(The law of Moses and the commandments written in stone, (10 commandments) kills and condemns. There is no salvation in them. They only bring us to Christ Gloriously to a better ministration of the Spirit in Christ Jesus who is born again in the believer to condemn and abolish all that interferes with the New Testament in The Blood of Christ.) .... The Law was done away at the Cross because it was fulfilled by One Man Jesus Christ fulfilling all the requirements God required, so man might be saved By Him that is birthed in us, Jesus Christ the Son of God.).....and also..........Of that which is abolished. Or rather, to be abolished, (tou katargoumenou;) whose nature, design, and intention it was that it should be abolished. It was never designed to be permanent; and Paul speaks of it here as a thing that was known and indisputable that the Mosaic institutions were designed to be abolished."...

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Yeshua Messiah put it this way:
Matthew 5:17-19 - "Do not think that I came to annul (Strong's G#2647 - katalyo: throw down, abolish, destroy) the Torah or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill (Strong's G#4137 - pleroo: to fulfill, make full). Truly I say to you, until the heavens and the earth pass away, in no way shall one jot or tittle pass away from the Torah until all comes to pass. Whoever then shall break one of these commandments, even the least, and shall teach men to do so, shall be called least by the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great by the Kingdom of Heaven."

Matthew 7:21-23 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Master, master,' will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of my Father in Heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Master, Master, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many works of power?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, those working lawlessness (Strong's G#458: anomia - wickedness, lawlessness, i.e. violators of the Law, transgression of the law, unrighteousness)!'"

and again,

Matthew 13:37-43 - And answering he said to them, "The one sowing the good seed is the son of man. And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the damel are the sons of the evil one. And the enemy who sowed them is the devil; and the harvest is the end of the age, and the angels are the reapers. Then as the damel is gathered and is consumed in the fire, so will it be in the end of this age. The son of man shall send forth his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all the offenses, and those who practice lawlessness (Strong's G#458: anomia - wickedness, lawlessness, i.e. violation of the Law, transgression of the law, unrighteousness). And they will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one having ears to hear, let him hear."
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Isaiah 42:21 – Yhvh is delighted for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the Law and make it glorious.

Psalm 1:1-3 - Blessed is the man who has not walked in the counsel of the wicked; and has not stood in the way of sinners, and has not sat in the seat of scorners. But his delight is only in the Law of Yhvh, and he meditates in His Law day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivulets of water, which will give its fruit in it's season; and its leaf will not wither; and all which he does shall prosper. Amen!

Katy-did said to me----------"Wild Branch, I hope you don't mind my responding to this statement...Can you tell me what Kingdom you are referring to in the passage from Matthew you quoted? ...and the differences between that verse and the one here?

No probem Katy! ;-)

I believe that Messiah Yeshua is speaking about the Kingdom of God here..........His main message really was "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near". I see is as the very same Kingdom being referred to by Paul, and see no difference at all.... those who are in the carnal, the flesh, who live in and willfully practice sin, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. (even those who hypocritically are saying "Lord, Lord"...)

Sin and death no longer have power over those who have been redeemed, and the law cannot condemn them, as they walk in the light as the blood of Yeshua cleanses from all sin. HalleluYah!

One who is born of God can overcome the world!
"Death, where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory?"...."By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments....And his commandments are not burdensome....For whoever is born of God overcomes the world by our faith in Yeshua, the son of God." (from 1 John 5)
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Katy also asked---------"My second question is, Why do you refer to yourself as Wildbranch"

and along with-----------"Which Covenant are you under?"

Here is my reply---------

Katy, I believe that at one time I was....
"separated from Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and a stranger to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world...but now have been brought near through the blood of Messiah....no longer a stranger and sojourner, but a fellow citizen with the saints and members of the household of God.... Eph.2

I am a "wildbranch" :-P, and have been grafted in to the natural olive tree of Israel....."the Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises, to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race according to the flesh, the Messiah"...from Romans 9 + 11.

I believe I am under the [b]"Everlasting Covenant[/b]"...

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee [Abraham] and thy seed after thee in their generations for an [b]everlasting covenant[/b], to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." Genesis 17:7

Isai 24:1 "For Yhwh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish. The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the [b]everlasting covenant[/b]. 6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left".

Jer 32:40:... "They shall be my people, and I will be their God; and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. I will make an [b]everlasting covenant[/b] with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from me"...

Likewise, the prophet declares in Jer 50:4-5: ..."In those days and at that time," declares Yhwh, "the sons of Israel will come, both they and the sons of Judah as well; they will go along weeping as they go, and it will be Yhwh their God they will seek. They will ask for the way to Zion, turning their faces in its direction; they will come that they may join themselves to Yhwh in an [b]everlasting covenant[/b] that will not be forgotten".

...and those who have come into the Everlasting Covenant, the promise is more than we could even hope for!..........

Isaiah 56...3-7 "Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely separate me from his people”; and let not the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” For thus says the Lord: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an [b]everlasting name[/b] that shall not be cut off. “And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, to minister to him, to love the name of Yahweh, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”

Hebrews 13:20 says:..."Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our master Yeshua, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the [b]eternal covenant[/b], equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in you that which is pleasing in his sight, through Yehsua Messiah; to who be the glory for ever and ever. Amen

“Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?... …For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah , of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. Hebrews 7:11, 13-14

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the Law.” Hebrews 7:12

The change in the Law came through the abolishing of the Levitical priesthood...no longer is the High Priest from the tribe of Levi, but the tribe of Judah. Yeshua fulfilled all the requirements of the sacrifices required, becoming himself a sacrifice...through faith in him we have our sins forgiven and the law is written on our heart, enabling us to love it and sincerely seek to walk in it.

Peace and love in Yeshua, the Messiah
(Jesus, the Anointed One)

Katy asked another question of me:
--Referring to the Covenant"S" of Promise as stated in Ephesians, would you tell me what Covenant the ONE NEW MAN (The Church) is under.--

Col 1:26-28: "Of this I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the [i]mystery[/i] which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the [i]glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Messiah in you, the hope of glory[/i].”

What had been unknown in previous generations prior to Paul’s writing this was not the existence of “the Church” as a separate group of elect. He specifies the mystery as “the Messiah in you, the hope of glory.”

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this [i]mystery[/i]—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” (Romans 11:25).

In Ephesians 1:9 Paul tells us, “He made known to us the [i]mystery[/i] of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him.

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The "Eternal Covenant" really encompasses all our Father's dealings with His people. It is carried from one generation to another, with promises made to various patriarchs of things that will be fulfilled in the fullness of time. Essentially, Yhwh wanted a people set apart unto Him. He chose Abraham and gave him a clue of the 'mystery' that would be revealed in time.....'a ram, caught in the thicket'. On and on he led the Hebrew people, He dealt with them and tried to make them a "peculiar people unto Him". .....eventually the tribe of Judah produced the "One" who gave himself as a ransom for all, the mystery hid from the foundation of the world, now manifest unto all.

Remember, for the first 10yrs, the believers on Messiah were entirely Jewish....Cornelius was the first gentile convert. The followers of Messiah were now a mixed group- Jews and Gentiles- both being rejected from their former establishments. They came together under Messiah as "one new man"...........Messiah is our head, he is leading us on the highway to Zion.........therefore the redeemed of the LORD will return, and come with singing, unto Zion, and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads!....

The 'mystery' hidden was "Messiah (Christ, the Anointed One) in you, the hope of glory"....

So the "one new man" is under the Everlasting Covenant, the all encompassing Promise of the Father to have a people of His own. We have the privilege of being grafted in through the living way that Messiah opened for us..............the banquet has been set, and those who were on the invitation list have not shown up.........He went looking in the highways and byways, and found us, willing to forsake all and enter into that banqueting hall.... Praise be unto God through Yeshua the Messiah! ....the covenants are now for us too, because as Ruth, we have said- "Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.

Katy-did------------what is your understanding of it all, if I may ask?

Thanks!

Quote:

"Yeshua Messiah put it this way"

Of course He did.

John 1:10-12 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

He was presenting to Israel the perfect interpreted and completely fulfilled Law. Even then they could not keep it.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

They were cut off for a time.

Acts 28:27-28 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Paul saw Jesus Christ and was given the Gospel of Christ in the Believer, that he was to be a witness to all men of salvation by Grace through the Faith of Jesus Christ, and that He would be birthed in the believer. Paul was the first to know this, not the first to be born again and receive the Holy Spirit as the Teacher of Jesus Christ. They had the Holy Spirit but they did not know the mystery which was revealed to Paul.

Colossians 1:23-28 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

"Christ in you the Hope of Glory", this futlfilled the the Word of God and revealed the mystery which Christ fulfilled in being birthed in the believer, fulfilling the Law, us becoming dead to the law and giving life to every person that would believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Acts 22:14-15 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

If we as the wife of Satan who was our husband, and our husband be dead we are freed from the Law and able to be married to another, the "another", is Jesus Christ of whom we are now His Bride.

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.

1Cr 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

We are not bound by the law anymore, unless you are not born again. We are loosed from the death of the law administered by our old husband Satan, who accused us continually before the Father that we were committing adultry by sinning and not keeping the Law.

Romans 7:4-5 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Are we serving in the newness of the Spirit or are we still serving the Law unto death in our old husband?

Romans 7:6-7 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

In Christ, not in the Law because Spirit of Christ liveth in me: Phillip

Katy-did said-----------quote: " My belief is that this Covenant was made between Father, Son and Holy Spirit from before the foundation of the world on our behalf. That the Everlasting Covenant is not based on "if" but on DONE.

My question Katy is this. What exactly is the Covenant that the "three persons of the Godhead"---(the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) made between themselves? What did they promise each other, on our behalf?

Another question would be: "Why would you call the "Word", the second person of the Trinity, when he is seen by Christianity to be the Creator of the Universe? Would he not then be the First person?

My 3rd question would be regarding your words here----------quote: "I don't believe I am being lead to ZION...earthly, but have all ready been seated in Heavenly Places In Christ, known as SION...heavenly..."
----------where in scripture is their a distinction found between "Zion" (Tsiyon)....and the Greek version of the word, "Sion"?

I am trying to understand where you are coming from, and also if your beliefs reflect those of mainstream Christianity.

Thanks Katy!

Christinyou said:---------------quote: "The law of Moses and the commandments written in stone, (10 commandments) kills and condemns. There is no salvation in them. They only bring us to Christ Gloriously to a better ministration of the Spirit in Christ Jesus who is born again in the believer to condemn and abolish all that interferes with the New Testament in The Blood of Christ.) .... The Law was done away at the Cross because it was fulfilled by One Man Jesus Christ fulfilling all the requirements God required, so man might be saved By Him that is birthed in us, Jesus Christ the Son of God.).....and also..........Of that which is abolished. Or rather, to be abolished, (tou katargoumenou;) whose nature, design, and intention it was that it should be abolished. It was never designed to be permanent; and Paul speaks of it here as a thing that was known and indisputable that the Mosaic institutions were designed to be abolished."...

Christinyou-------------do you agree with those who have abolished the Ten Commandments from schools and courthouses across North America, seeing that you say of the Ten Commandments, quote: "(10 commandments) kills and condemns....There is no salvation in them.............were designed to be abolished"...?

Thanks......(I have heard of this before, but never spoken to someone who felt this strongly about it)

Katy-did said------------quote: "...If you look up the words Zion and Sion in your Strongs, I do believe you have one, You will see the differences, and that they are not the same. They are placed in 2 entirely different places in Strong’s, and have entirely different scripture to back. If these words were one in the same, they would be listed, as so many that are the same under the same heading suggesting a different spelling, with ALL scripture referencing below.

SION is used in Hebrews 12:22, Romans 9:35,( I lay in SION a stumbling stone, (the Cross) (see :1 Peter 2:6 ). ...
_________________________________________________

Katy, it is quite clear from some research - Strongs or other dictionaries, that the words "Zion" and "Sion" have the same meaning, and are used interchangeably. The Greek alphabet did not have a "Z" in it, so the "S" was appropriate. Even the verses you quoted there from the KJV NT which use the word "Sion", are direct quotes from the OT which use the word "Zion" ........The Hebrews and 1Peter references you gave refer to Isaiah 28:16..."Zion".

Isaiah 28:26: "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste."

Result of search for "sion"and "zion":
7865 Siy'on see-ohn' from 7863; peak; Sion, the summit of Mt. Hermon:--Sion.

6726 Tsiyown tsee-yone' the same (regularly) as 6725; Tsijon (as a permanent capital), a mountain of Jerusalem:--Zion.

4622. Sion see-own' of Hebrew origin (6726); Sion (i.e. Tsijon), a hill of Jerusalem; figuratively, the Church (militant or triumphant):--Sion.

Zion means fortress in Hebrew. According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #6726 it is pronounced Tsiyown, tsee-yone; Tsijon (as a permanent capital), a mountain of Jerusalem --- Zion. The word Zion is found 152 times in the Old Testament.

Sion is Strong's #7865 SIYON, see-ohn; peak; Sion, the summit of Mount Hermon -- Sion. However, Sion (Deuteronomy 4:48 for Mount Hermon) can also be used to define a district in Jerusalem (Psalms 65:1, KJV). Remember, too, that Sion is the Greek spelling for Zion the seven times it is used in the KJV.

All modern translations that I have seen use Zion instead of Sion.

But ye are come unto mount Sion*, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, - Heb. 12:22-24

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion*, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. - Rev. 14:1
*In the New Testament, the Greek word "Sion" [#4622] derives from the Hebrew word for "Zion" [#6726] referring to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem.

Katy said-------quote: "First of all, let me say I am a Born Again Jew:.

Dear Katy-------**-wonderful!** As the apostle Paul says, a natural branch, grafted back into their own olive tree, after previously being 'broken off'.8-)

You also said------quote: "If memory serves me well, you say you are a wild branch grafted into the Natural! Correct. Saying you were grafted into Israel?????? Or grafted into the Covenants given to Israel???? "
_________________________________________________

Yes I did say that Katy, quoting again from the apostle Paul in Romans 11 and also from Ephesians 2 etc.

I pretty much agree with your last post on the issue of the covenants, the portion which I will copy paste at the end of this post.

My question was regarding the Everlasting Covenant, which you had previously said was made between the 3 persons of the Trinitarian Godhead. I'll post the quote----------

Katy-did said-----------quote: " My belief is that this Covenant was made between Father, Son and Holy Spirit from before the foundation of the world on our behalf. That the Everlasting Covenant is not based on "if" but on DONE.

My question Katy is this. What exactly is the Covenant that the "three persons of the Godhead"---(the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) made between themselves? What did they promise each other, on our behalf?

Another question would be: "Why would you call the "Word", the second person of the Trinity, when he is seen by Christianity to be the Creator of the Universe? Would he not then be the First person?

_________________________________________________

Katy's words on the covenants of Israel-------------"The Covenant made from before the foundation of the world, include those who's names are written in the Lambs book of Life from before the Foundation of the World......Long before God gave the Law to Moses. Those in the "Hall of Faith", listed in Hebrews 11, beginning with Abel, placed their faith in the promised redeemer, promised in Genesis 3:15. Abel's animal sacrifice was accepted by God, counting him righteous before God. Able was not a Jew, or is the "Everlasting Covenant" Jewish. However Israel was chosen to carry the "LIGHT" of the Everlasting Covenant into the World. From Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob (renamed Israel) through the line of Judah, through the line of David (David being Judah of coarse) on to Mary (of the tribe of Judah) who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, bringing in Jesus Christ, our Messiah, Jesus Christ.(The visible fulfilling((still more to come)) of the Promise of the Everlasting Covenant).
In the Old Testament, there were two comings of Messiah...one as KING, and one as the suffering servant, who was slain from the foundation of the world. This same Jesus Christ, of the seed and offspring of David, will be as was told to David in the Psalms (the Lord said to my Lord, sit here until I make my enemy your footstool.) Prophecy concerning Jesus Christ Messiah KING who will reign and rule during the 1000 Year Millennial Reign. (Also refer to 1 Corinthians 15 for the order of events) Christ the first fruits, then those who are His at His coming, THEN the Kingdom, where He must Rule until he has put all things under Him, for He must Reign until He has put all things under Him.....the fulfilling of Genesis "

----------Yes Katy, that sounds scriptural, and I would be in agreement with these words as you have posted them. Only one note, in that Psalm you quoted, the original language reads....YHWH said to my lord ...ADONAI (the LORD) said to my lord (Adoni).

Thanks

8-)

Katy---------I agree with you "You nor I *become* Jews, and that is not what Romans 11 is about."

We cannot become Jews, and are not required to at all.......a Jew is someone from the tribe of Judah (as Yeshua was).

I agree with you, I am not a proselyte to Judaism. That would mean denying my Messiah, and coming under a set of rabbinic rules and laws that have been added to God's perfect law, against the injunction to not 'add to or take away from it".

The problem is most do not want to be grafted into the richness of the olive tree....as Paul says..."to them (Israelites, belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises, to them belong the patriarchs, and according to the flesh, is the Messiah"..
----instead they have started their own new tree, devoid of the holy root..."aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the covenants of promise"...(Paul again, in Ephesians)
Many would claim all the promises in scriptures that were given to the Israelites, and never once consider the *if* factor...if you obey etc. They basically pick and choose which aspects of God's teachings they feel will fit into the new tree, and reject all else.

Messiah himself said he came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Sorry for thinking you had been a natural branch that had been grafted back into the olive tree as Paul speaks about. Paul does say 'some were broke off', which of course means 'not all'.

Sharon

Katy, I agree with your statement!------quote: "Sharon, tht is what is so wonderful about the New Covenant....I WILL put my Spirit in you and cause you to walk in my statutes"

When we have His Spirit, he causes us to walk in His statutes and we do so out of a heart of joy, loving every minute of it!

Brother Phillip wrote:

Why would we want to consider these when we have Jesus Christ unvailed. These have no life in them only a picture pointing to the Life in Christ.

"Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abed-nego' had life because of an intercessor whom Scripture describes as...

Dan. 3:25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

If you believe like a Jehova Witness, then this is Jesus when He was and angel like Michael.

But Scripture clearly says that Jesus was not an angel...

Heb. 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
\t“You are My Son,
\tToday I have begotten You”? And again:
\t“I will be to Him a Father,
\tAnd He shall be to Me a Son”?

"For to which of the angels (did He ever say)....

If you believe like a dispensationalist, you will reject the work of Jesus in the OT. And therefore reject the doctrine of the Trinity.

Heb 1:

7 And of the angels He says:
\t“Who makes His angels spirits
\tAnd His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:
\t“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
\tA scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 \tYou have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
\tTherefore God, Your God, has anointed You
\tWith the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
\t“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
\tAnd the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Jesus, the Son of God is the Lord, the Holy One of Israel. Just because one does not have the NT and greater revealation of who the Holy One is, this does not hinder the hand of God in the way the Potter's hands formed the clay in the OT. No one has seen the Father except the Son. And the Son has revealed the Father to all men in all generations.

Heb. 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
\t“Today, if you will hear His voice,
\tDo not harden your hearts.”

The word of God has always had the power to save....

To know doctrines is one thing but to know His ways is salvation...

Psa. 119:9 \tHow can a young man cleanse his way?
\tBy taking heed according to Your word.

Psa. 119:14 \tI have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
\tAs much as in all riches.
15 \tI will meditate on Your precepts,
\tAnd contemplate Your ways.

Psa. 119:26 \tI have declared my ways, and You answered me;
\tTeach me Your statutes.
27 \tMake me understand the way of Your precepts;
\tSo shall I meditate on Your wonderful works.

Psa. 119:29 \tRemove from me the way of lying,
\tAnd grant me Your law graciously.
30 \tI have chosen the way of truth;
\tYour judgments I have laid before me.

Psa. 119:33 \tTeach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes,
\tAnd I shall keep it to the end.

Psa. 119:37 \tTurn away my eyes from looking at worthless things,
\tAnd revive me in Your way.

Psa. 119:59 \tI thought about my ways,
\tAnd turned my feet to Your testimonies.

Psa. 119:101 I have restrained my feet from every evil way,
\t\tThat I may keep Your word.

Psa. 119:104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;
\t\tTherefore I hate every false way.

Psa. 119:128 Therefore all Your precepts concerning all things
\t\tI consider to be right;
\t\tI hate every false way.

Psa. 119:168 I keep Your precepts and Your testimonies,
\t\tFor all my ways are before You.

God has always required of man that man turn from his way and seek the Lord's way. God has always required of man to love Him with all of his heart, strength and mind. John writes that the purpose of God work in us...

1John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

If you read "His word" found in Psalm 119, you see that God has perfected the Psalmist love for Him.

Search the Scriptures in Psalm 119 and see if it is true...

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

God has dealt with men through out the centuries through "Covenants".

Sis, you always refer to the law given to Moses on Mount Sinai...yet we know that there was also another coventant in place that preceded the "covenant given on Mount Sinai"

Genesis 16: 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

Like the covenant that God swore to His Son,

Heb. 7:21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:
\t“The LORD has sworn
\tAnd will not relent,
\t‘You are a priest forever
\tAccording to the order of Melchizedek’ ”),

God made a covenant with Abraham and in each generation after him that God would be God to them, and they would be His people...

Do you say that this covenant has no effect in each generation? Does not Scripture declare that God by grace has established a remnant in all generations?

In Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy,

Have you considered how God established this prophesy during the life of King Ahaz?

Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The LORD will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”

Who is this Child..."For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good..."

How does Scripture reveal the Child to King Ahaz?

In Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

I believe I did say the "Everlasting Covenant" was first revealed in Genesis 3:15 and will be completely fulfilled at the end of the age when Jesus takes the Throne of David, reigns and rules, until he has put all things under Him, ( 1st Corinthians 15)also states as well.

Well said, this is the first covenant isn't it? You mentioned that this covenant "will be completely fulfilled at the end."

When did it begin, when were the effects of this covenant experienced by man?

I believe I said Abraham, or the covenant made to Abraham is the root in Romans 11, but deeper than this Jesus Christ is the root of the Covenant with Abraham. In Isaac will thy seed be called, not seeds as in many but seed as **ONE**, and that seed is Christ.

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Please notice that the wild olive was grafted in among them, that is, the "holy branches." Please notice that there were other branches broken off which made room for the wild olive branch.

Each "holy branch" represents a generation that has been sustained by

For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

The word of God is without question. If the branches are holy it is because they received the nourishment from that which is holy.

What do you think about all the branches that represent the remnant thoughout the generations?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Lyn wrote:

John 7
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Here we see that Jesus "being in the form of God" "made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant."

Our dispensational theology bent, often neglects the first part of Paul's explaination of Jesus...

If He was as Paul says, "being in the form of God" prior to His taking on a fleshly body, what did He do in the 4000 years that preceded this moment in earthly history?

Jesus also prayed to the Father looking back to the time before the incarnation....

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus also said this...

Matt. 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

How often I wanted to gather your children speaks to more than one generation....many prophets were killed in many different generations.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Lyn wrote:

The writer of Hebrews is seeking to establish Christ as God's Son by whom He has spoken in these last days. Yes He was\\is the Prophet by whom we also speak His word today through gifts of the Holy Spirit, but He was also an Apostle ('sent one' or 'messenger') and our High Priest after a different order then Levi.

God sent His Son to speak to a generation that lived 2000 years ago. And like you said, now the Holy Spirit speaks to us. Prior to Christ coming as man, how did God speak to men?

Who else in Scripture is able to perform the priestly duties according to the order of Melchizedek?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Lyn wrote:

Nevertheless, that was only a shadow of God becoming a lamb led to the slaughter, when Jesus was crucified. He lived that out in real time also. We cannot escape the real-time element of God's revelation to mankind. Now, we are living in the 'now is the day of salvation' and we must live as the 'saved by faith', and internalise the life of Jesus Christ as honestly as we can, becoming that pronouncement of the new and living way to our generations.

I know I've rambled, but it's my best attempt at communicating those thoughts.

We often speak about shadows in the OT. God's word often relates to us in a way in which we might observe precepts based on our physical senses. We know that if there exists a shadow, there must be something that creates that shadow.

Likewise if the "shadow" exists in the OT, one might think that there is something that "exists" that creates that shadow.

We also know that prophesy often manifests itself in multiply generations. What we see now is only a "shadow" that future generations will one day see; existed in our generation. They will say in the midst of the 1000 year reign of Christ that we only saw in part, dimly....

Then again, there is the final episode....where we will no longer suffer from shadows but we will see Him as He truly is. Jerusalem will be forever more...with the Father as the light and the Son as the lamp....

Rambling is a good thing....

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy refered to Pink's article....in it Pink writes

Unto Abraham God gave a remarkable pledge of the fulfillment of His covenant promises in the striking victory which He granted him over the federated forces of Chedorlaomer. This was more than a hint of the victory of Christ and His seed over the world: carefully compare Isaiah 41:2,3,10,15. Genesis 14:19, 20 supplies proof of what we have just said, for upon returning from his memorable victory, Abraham was met by Melchizedek (type of Christ) and was blessed by him. A further revelation of the contents of the covenant of grace was granted unto Abraham in Genesis 15, where in the vision of the smoking furnace which passed through the midst of the sacrifice, an adumbration was made of the sufferings of Christ. In the miraculous birth of Isaac, intimation was given of the supernatural birth of Christ, the promised Seed. In the deliverance of Isaac from the altar, representation was made of the resurrection of Christ (Heb 11:19).

Pink refers to Melchizedec as "a type of Christ." If Melchizedec was not the preincarnate Christ, If one believes that Melchizedec was only a man, then one must conclude that Melchizedec was conformed into the image of His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is the only way for man to resemble the Seed.

I believe that the Priestly order of Melchizedek could only be performed by the Holy One in Scriptures.

Thus we may see how fully the covenant of grace was revealed and confirmed unto Abraham the father of all them that believe, by which he and his descendants obtained a clearer sight and understanding of the great Redeemer and the things which were to be accomplished by Him. “And therefore did Christ take notice of this when He said, Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and was glad” (John 8:56). These last words clearly intimate that Abraham had a definite spiritual apprehension of those things. Under the Sinaitic covenant a yet fuller revelation was made by God to His people of the contents of the everlasting covenant: the tabernacle, and all its holy vessels; the high priest, his vestments, and service; and the whole system of sacrifices and ablutions, setting before them its blessed realities in typical forms, they being patterns of heavenly things.

I believe Pink has missed the point taught in Scripture...concerning the covenant made to Abraham and to each generation that followed...we find this in the book of Ezekiel.

Ezek. 20:5 “Say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God.’

Here we are told that God made an oath to a generation who were "descendants of the house of Jacob" ..."in the land of Egypt."

The Lord says to this generation, "I am the Lord your God."

Then the Lord spoke this to that generation....

6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, “flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands.

Then the Lord spoke this to that generation....

7 Then I said to them, “Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’

This is taking place in the nation of Egypt, where Jacob had moved to some 400 years before...God exhorts them to follow Him and not the idols of Egypt....

(Genesis 15:

13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” )

Now we find in the sequence of events....after God has revealed Himself to this generation....and commanded them to turn towards Him...

8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, “I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’

In this section of Scripture we find that God "was against them in the midst of the land of Egypt."

Then we hear again in the sequence of events that unfold...

9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

So now God relents for His name's sake, and for what purpose? So that HIS name "should not be profaned before the Gentiles.

Now we hear again in the sequence of events...

Ezek. 20:10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, “which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, “which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

In this section of Scripture we find that God now after this generation's first rebellion, gives them the Law given to Moses on Mount Sinai...

Now we know that this covenant purpose was to teach this generation and all others what God considers sin. The effect of this covenant is condemnation.

11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, “which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’

And yet again after more rebellion we find this same effect...

Ezek. 20:25 “Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; 26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the LORD.” ’

If the Lord gives one over to the effects of the Law given on Mount Sinai, there is no hope of salvation...

What is most important to understand in all of this is that when God speaks His promise to a man to be God to him, what does this mean for the man...Abraham is given to us as the Lord's testimony of the power of the promise.

Scripture builds itself in a straight line, it is man's doctrines which chop it up...

When Pink says that the covenant given on Mount Sinai brought more clarity to what existed before, I say it is the opposite. Because of unbelief that generation did not enter His rest. God was willing as we see in the above Scripture to give them much more that what they wanted....

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy...

Have you searched the Scriptures of how the prophesy given to King Ahaz by God came true during his life?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

Actually this is what the Scriptures say:

Then you quoted Hebrew and 1 Peter...

Are you refering to "...the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify..."

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Lyn wrote:

Jeff, surely there was no hope of salvation for idolaters, because there was no forgiveness, only the vengeance permitted under the Law, as a clear statement of God's inability to tolerate sin?

I was refering to Romans 1 and Proverbs 1 when Scripture teaches that God gives men over because they continually deny God.

Proverbs 1:

24 \tBecause I have called and you refused,
\tI have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 \tBecause you disdained all my counsel,
\tAnd would have none of my rebuke,
26 \tI also will laugh at your calamity;
\tI will mock when your terror comes,
27 \tWhen your terror comes like a storm,
\tAnd your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
\tWhen distress and anguish come upon you.
28 \t“Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
\tThey will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.

Romans 1
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Rom. 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

We are given this testimony...

24 Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,

What do these words imply...is it actually a visible hand that God extends to men? When Scripture testifies that God "called" and God "counsels" by what means does He accomplish this work?

What does it mean for those whom He gives over?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy...

Do you believe that Melchizedek was sent by God to minister to Abraham?

Why was it necessary to set up a Levitical Priesthood if Melchizedek were in fact Jesus Christ Eternal to begin with. Things would have gone on exactly that way from the beginning.

As the Scriptures point out in Ezekiel that the nation of Israel did not obey God. He offered them rest but because of unbelief they did not enter in. After God repented and still brought them out into the wilderness, then He gave the a covenant which taught them by the things which are seen.

Why does God send His high priest Melchizedek to Abraham?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy...

Have you considered either the prophesy given to King Ahaz or now the Scripture that I wrote about in Ezekiel?

In Christ
Jeff

Hebrews 6:

1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

This Melchizedek was both king and priest. The Scriptures describe the quality of this king by the name given to him....king of righteousness, and king of peace. This king, this priest who met Abraham was "made like the Son of God." And this king that met Abraham "remains a priest continually....

In Scripture we find that God places great emphasis on His name.

ie...

Ezekiel 20

9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

14 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out.

22 Nevertheless I withdrew My hand and acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out.

Ezek. 20:39 “As for you, O house of Israel,” thus says the Lord GOD: “Go, serve every one of you his idols—and hereafter—if you will not obey Me; but profane My holy name no more with your gifts and your idols.

44 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have dealt with you for My name’s sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”

So then when we are given a name that describes a priesthood that is represented as both the king of righteousness and the king of peace...a priest who is "made like the Son of God" and finally a priesthood "that never ends" what might we conclude about this priest who was sent by God to Abraham?

In Christ
Jeff

Jeff Wrote:

Quote,

"So then when we are given a name that describes a priesthood that is represented as both the king of righteousness and the king of peace...a priest who is "made like the Son of God" and finally a priesthood "that never ends" what might we conclude about this priest who was sent by God to Abraham?"

This Melchizedek "made like", was a created man not a birthed only begotten Son of God. He is a type of the priesthood Christ would enter forever for His people His Body of Christ the Church, not a type of the Messiah. Whom God has sent to you. Melchizedek was not born of a virgin, by the Holy Spirit, or say he was the Son of God incarnate, hang on a Cross, die be buried rise on the third day, taken up into heaven, come back and be birthed in the son's and daughter's of God.

By Albert Barns, The account of Melchisedek, which is very brief, occurs in Ge 14:18-20. The name occurs in the Bible only in Ge 14:1-24, Ps 110:4, and in this epistle. Nothing else is certainly known of him. Grotius supposes that he is the same man who, in the history of Sanchoniathon, is called suduk--Sydyc. It has indeed been made a question by some whether such a person ever actually existed, and consequently whether this be a proper name. But the account in Genesis is as simple an historical record as any other in the Bible. In that account there is no difficulty whatever. It is said simply, that when Abraham was returning from a successful military expedition, this man, who, it seems, was well known, and who was respected as a priest of God, came out to express his approbation of what he had done, and to refresh him with bread and wine. As a tribute of gratitude to him, and as a thank-offering to God, Abraham gave him a tenth part of the spoils which he had taken. Such an occurrence was by no means improbable, nor would it have been attended with any special difficulty if it had not been for the use which the apostle makes of it in this epistle. Yet on no subject has there been a greater variety of opinion than in regard to this man. The bare recital of the opinions which have been entertained of him would fill a volume. But in a case which seems to be plain, from the Scripture narrative, it is not necessary even to enumerate these opinions. They only serve to show how easy it is for men to mystify a clear statement of history, and how fond they are of finding what is mysterious and marvellous in the plainest narrative of facts. That he was Shem; as the Jews suppose, or that he was the Son of God himself, as many Christian expositors have maintained, there is not the slightest evidence. The latter opinion is false, that is perfectly clear; for if he were the Son of God, with what propriety could the apostle say that he "was made like the Son of God," Heb 7:3; that is, like himself; or that Christ was constituted a priest "after the order of Melchisedec;" that is, that he was a type of himself? The most simple and probable opinion is that given by Josephus, that he was a pious Canaanitish prince; a personage eminently endowed by God, and who acted as the priest of his people. That he combined in himself the offices of priest and king furnished to the apostle a beautiful illustration of the offices sustained by the Redeemer, and was, in this respect, perhaps the only one whose history is recorded in the Old Testament who would furnish such an illustration. That his genealogy was not recorded, while that of every other priest mentioned was so careful traced and preserved, furnished another striking illustration. In this respect, like the Son of God, he stood alone. He was not in a line of priests; he was preceded by no one in the sacerdotal office, nor was he followed by any. That he was superior to Abraham, and consequently to all who descended from Abraham; that a tribute was rendered to him by the great ancestor of all the fraternity of Jewish priests, was just an illustration which suited the purpose of Paul. His name, therefore, the place where he reigned, his solitariness, his lone conspicuity in all the past, his dignity, and perhaps the air of mystery thrown over him in the brief history in Genesis, furnished a beautiful and striking illustration of the solitary grandeur, and the inapproachable eminence of the priesthood of the Son of God. There is no evidence that Melchisedek was designed to be a type of the Messiah, or that Abraham so understood it. Nothing of this kind is affirmed; and how shall we affirm it when the sacred oracles are silent?

Melchizedek is not Jesus Christ and never could be. He could not be a type of Himself until He became incarnate.

Melchizedek did not and could not bring God's Elect into the Kingdom of His dear Son. That is the Son's reward for His obedience unto death on the Cross.

Melchizedek is only a type of the Priesthood.

In Christ: Phillip

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said , I see men loose no .

"is like" Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
1821. d@mah (Aramaic)
Search for H1821 in KJVSL
hmd d@mah (Aramaic) dem-aw'
(Aramaic) corresponding to 1819; to resemble:--be like.

"the son of God": Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
1247. bar (Aramaic)
Search for H1247 in KJVSL
rb bar (Aramaic) bar
(Aramaic) corresponding to 1121; a son, grandson, etc.:--X old, son.

"is like, to resemble a son of God".

Not Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God.

Their are many sons that are heavenly.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Katy wrote:

Jeff, it is referring to when the Spirit of Christ would be "in them".

NKJ

11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

KJV

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

ASV

1Pet. 1:11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

WEB

1Pet. 1:11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that would follow them.

YNG

1Pet. 1:11 searching in regard to what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ that was in them was manifesting, testifying beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory after these,

DRBY

1Pet. 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ which [was] in them pointed out, testifying before of the sufferings which [belonged] to Christ, and the glories after these.

Did you miss what the Scriptures says about the" Spirit of Christ which was in them....."

We all have the same word of God but not the same doctrine...

In Christ
jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

Jesus own words, in the Gospels, says HE will send the Spirit, after he goes to the Father.

Who sent the Spirit before Christ became man and what did the Spirit communicate to man?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy...

Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

How does God establish this sign to Ahaz...who is this "Child" who eats "curds and honey" who is the sign given to King Ahaz...

One of King Ahaz's sons which he didn't sacrifice to the idol of Baal is known a King Hezekiah...

What does Scripture teach us about this "Child"? And what does Scriptures teach about the revival of that generation...even the earth stopped during this revival...

Many revival preachers in this generation teach about the revival of that generation....

In Christ
Jeff

Albert Barnes writes...

Nothing else is certainly known of him. Grotius supposes that he is the same man who, in the history of Sanchoniathon, is called suduk--Sydyc. It has indeed been made a question by some whether such a person ever actually existed, and consequently whether this be a proper name.

Who needs Grotius or Sanchonianthon, we have the Scripture and the Holy Spirit....

The most simple and probable opinion is that given by Josephus, that he was a pious Canaanitish prince; a personage eminently endowed by God, and who acted as the priest of his people. That he combined in himself the offices of priest and king furnished to the apostle a beautiful illustration of the offices sustained by the Redeemer, and was, in this respect, perhaps the only one whose history is recorded in the Old Testament who would furnish such an illustration.

Again Barnes relies on man and not Scripture...

In this Barnes quotes..."That he combined in himself the offices of priest and king..."

We know according to Scripture that no man takes it upon himself to be priest of the Most High God... we know that the king of righteousness is not found in fallen man but in Christ alone....

That he was superior to Abraham, and consequently to all who descended from Abraham; that a tribute was rendered to him by the great ancestor of all the fraternity of Jewish priests, was just an illustration which suited the purpose of Paul.

Scripture does not state that Paul wrote Hebrews...

Brother Phillip wrote:

Melchizedek is only a type of the Priesthood

How is the priesthood of Melchizedek different from the Levitical priesthood?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

Their are many sons that are heavenly.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Well said, and this is true...

Heb. 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

But how many according to Scripture hold the office, "priest of the Most High God"?

In Christ
Jeff

NKJ

Heb. 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

KJV

Heb. 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

ASV

Heb. 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

Heb. 7:2 to whom also Abraham divided a tenth part of all being first, by interpretation, King of righteousness, and then also King of Salem, which is King of peace;

Heb. 7:3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like unto the Son of God, abideth a priest continually.

WEB

Heb. 7:1 ¶ For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

Heb. 7:2 to whom also Abraham divided a tenth part of all (being first, by interpretation, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace;

Heb. 7:3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God), remains a priest continually.

YNG

Heb. 7:1 ¶ For this Melchisedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who did meet Abraham turning back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him,

Heb. 7:2 to whom also a tenth of all did Abraham divide, (first, indeed, being interpreted, ‘King of righteousness,’ and then also, King of Salem, which is, King of Peace,)

Heb. 7:3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, and being made like to the Son of God, doth remain a priest continually.

DRBY

Heb. 7:1 ¶ For this Melchisedec, King of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from smiting the kings, and blessed him;

Heb. 7:2 to whom Abraham gave also the tenth portion of all; first being interpreted King of righteousness, and then also King of Salem, which is King of peace;

Heb. 7:3 without father, without mother, without genealogy; having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but assimilated to the Son of God, abides a priest continually.

In all of these translations we find that the author of Hebrews describes Melchizedek with these words..."but assimilated to the Son of God," "being made like to the Son of God," "but made like the Son of God," "but made like unto the Son of God,"

Who is the author of Hebrews pointing to when Scripture is translated....Son of God?

In Christ
jeff

Quote:

But how many according to Scripture hold the office, "priest of the Most High God"?

Jesus is not a priest of the most high, He is the most high priest Himself "after the order", like the priest of Salem, not of him through him or by him. But High Priest Himself. Only become High Priest after the last sacrifice, Christ on the Cross. We don't pay ties to Him, we pay ties to God the Father. We are to believe that God the Father has birthed in us His only begotten Son, He in us and us in Him.
He is our High Priest not the Father's High Priest, His Father is God also, He needs no High Priest, but provided one for you and I. Is Jesus not on His throne that is in us, as He provided the Temple for the Holy Spirit to dwell in us forever and His Father's abode also. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Katy asked:

eff, Are you asking a question you don't know the answer to, or are you asking questions simply to use as a method of teaching your beliefs?

I ask questions in the hope that one would consider what Scripture actually teaches...

For example....

How did God speak to the prophets?

Another question...

Peter states in Acts 2...

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In the above Scripture it is clearly stated that the Holy Ghost filled the disciples...

Now listen again to what Peter declares....

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

In the above Scripture Peter declares that the event that has just occured was prophesied by Joel...

Now, in this prophesy, Scripture states that "God, I will pour out of my Spirit [u][i][b]upon[/b][/i][/u] all flesh..."

Now I ask another question have you ever considered that being filled with the Spirit is the same thing as the events of the OT where the Spirit of God was poured out upon the individual...

And once again, in Scripture we find this...

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The Scripture indicates that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets of the OT....

Now I ask another question....

Do you believe Scripture or have you only learned from the writings of men?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katie wrote:

You're not suggesting King Hezekiah is Christ?

No Hezekiah was not Christ. But I believe that he was conformed into the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

There is a precept taught in Scripture...There are two spiritual forces that influence all men. We know that the Holy Spirit gives witness of God to all men. We also know that Satan sows his influence in all men. This is declared in Scripture....

Genesis 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

In this covenant, God declares that there hatred would grow between Satan and the woman....

Now we know that Satan is a spiritual being...so therefore to keep the purity of Scripture intact...what is the nature of the woman...spirit or flesh?

Now the second part of this covenant we see this result...

"and between thy seed and her seed; "

Now who is the seed of Satan according to Scripture?

As a real life example of this precept...we find this in Isaiah 14:

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. 22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts. 24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

In the above Scripture we find that Isaiah is writing about Lucifer and the king of Babylon... their nature are the same...listen to Daniel...

22 And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this; 23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified: 24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. 25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. 26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. 27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. 28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

What was prophesised in Isaiah came true in Daniel...

So here we have a clear example of a man who takes on the nature of his father Lucifer...

This will also come to pass some time in the future where the anti christ will exault himself above the heavens and delcare like his father Lucifer the same words.

We are also given testimony of this same precept in the life of Cain...there are many examples of men who took on the nature of their father Lucifer.

Do you see this precept here in Scripture?

Enough for now...

Your brother In Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

Only become High Priest after the last sacrifice, Christ on the Cross.

The sacrifice that He made at the end of times covers all time...

Was Christ part of the Trinity in the OT?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Jeff wrote,

Quote:

""The sacrifice that He made at the end of times covers all time...

Then why did God command Israel to sacrifice animals on the Altar to show that the forgiveness of sin would come through Jesus Christ Crucified. God hated those sacrifices but it was His way of saying out of death comes life. There was only covering of sin in the old testament, there is the complete taking away of sin in the New Testament by Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.

Quote:
""Was Christ part of the Trinity in the OT?""

John 1:2-4 The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Of Course He was part of the Trinity. He was not manifest to anyone in the Old Testament as He is manifest to us after His birth through Mary. They knew Him Not and received Him not.
No one knew His Name until Mary was given it. They could not even believe on His Name. They certainly did not know He was the birthed Son of God.

John 1:10-18 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Now God is manifest in the flesh through Jesus Christ. Moses could only give the Law, a picture of who Christ would be and now is, but even Moses could not become manifest as God and Die and reconcile the world to Himself and to the Father, to those elect that believe.

Why was the Law given if Jesus Christ was already their sacrifice, leading to eternal life, having offered a sacrifice pleasing to God for all time, once and never again needed to be offered and overwhelming and taking away the old priesthood of the old testament priests offering year by year.

If the Cross was in the old testament why did it have to be manifest to start the New Testament?

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Philip wrote:

If the Cross was in the old testament why did it have to be manifest to start the New Testament?

The "effect of the cross" was present in the OT...

Psa. 116:1 \tI love the LORD, because He has heard
\tMy voice and my supplications.
2 \tBecause He has inclined His ear to me,
\tTherefore I will call upon Him as long as I live.
3 \tThe pains of death surrounded me,
\tAnd the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me;
\tI found trouble and sorrow.
4 \tThen I called upon the name of the LORD:
\t“O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!”
5 \tGracious is the LORD, and righteous;
\tYes, our God is merciful.
6 \tThe LORD preserves the simple;
\tI was brought low, and He saved me.
7 \tReturn to your rest, O my soul,
\tFor the LORD has dealt bountifully with you.
8 \tFor You have delivered my soul from death,
\tMy eyes from tears,
\tAnd my feet from falling.
9 \tI will walk before the LORD
\tIn the land of the living.
10 \tI believed, therefore I spoke,
\t“I am greatly afflicted.”
11 \tI said in my haste,
\t“All men are liars.”
12 \tWhat shall I render to the LORD
\tFor all His benefits toward me?
13 \tI will take up the cup of salvation,
\tAnd call upon the name of the LORD.
14 \tI will pay my vows to the LORD
\tNow in the presence of all His people.
15 \tPrecious in the sight of the LORD
\tIs the death of His saints.

Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints.

Have you ever considered this in Scripture...

Your brother in Christ
jeff

Sister Lyn wrote:

As it is impossible for us to turn the clock back, to know for sure how the men of the Old Testament thought in themselves, we must rely on scripture's commentary on every single point on which doctrine finally comes to rest. But one thing is certain - their 'old man' had not been crucified with Christ - and therefore, they had not been delivered from the power of sin.

I believe Scripture does give evidence that the OT saints were delivered from the power of sin...

Psa. 116:1 \tI love the LORD, because He has heard
\tMy voice and my supplications.
2 \tBecause He has inclined His ear to me,
\tTherefore I will call upon Him as long as I live.
3 \tThe pains of death surrounded me,
\tAnd the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me;
\tI found trouble and sorrow.
4 \tThen I called upon the name of the LORD:
\t“O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!”
5 \tGracious is the LORD, and righteous;
\tYes, our God is merciful.
6 \tThe LORD preserves the simple;
\tI was brought low, and He saved me.
7 \tReturn to your rest, O my soul,
\tFor the LORD has dealt bountifully with you.
8 \tFor You have delivered my soul from death,
\tMy eyes from tears,
\tAnd my feet from falling.
9 \tI will walk before the LORD
\tIn the land of the living.
10 \tI believed, therefore I spoke,
\t“I am greatly afflicted.”
11 \tI said in my haste,
\t“All men are liars.”
12 \tWhat shall I render to the LORD
\tFor all His benefits toward me?
13 \tI will take up the cup of salvation,
\tAnd call upon the name of the LORD.
14 \tI will pay my vows to the LORD
\tNow in the presence of all His people.
15 \tPrecious in the sight of the LORD
\tIs the death of His saints.
16 \tO LORD, truly I am Your servant;
\tI am Your servant, the son of Your maidservant;
\tYou have loosed my bonds.

This man proclaims that he "will walk before the Lord in the land of the living"...he will "take up the cup of salvation,
\tAnd call upon the name of the LORD."

This man testifies that God has "loosed my bonds."

And does not Scripture in the NT say...

Acts 2:21 \tAnd it shall come to pass
\tThat whoever calls on the name of the LORD
\tShall be saved.’

Rom. 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

Again in another sections of Scripture we have a man who prays for God to do this in his life...

Psalm 119:

28 \tMy soul melts from heaviness;
\tStrengthen me according to Your word.
29 \tRemove from me the way of lying,
\tAnd grant me Your law graciously.

Do you believe God was unable to answer his prayer because Christ had not come in the flesh yet?

We often look at Scripture according to our understanding of time, yet example after example in Scripture points to the work of God existing outside 'our" constraints based on time. God has been reconciling man to Himself through the Holy One since the foundation of this world.

2Cor. 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

David said ...

Psa. 32:1 \tBlessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
\tWhose sin is covered.
2 \tBlessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
\tAnd in whose spirit there is no deceit.

So Scripture is clear that the OT saints had a life where..."in whose spirit there is no deceit."

Sorry it took so long to respond...local ministry is captivating more of my thoughts these days...

God Bless
Your brother in Christ always.
Jeff

Sister Lyn wrote:

I believe the differences you highlight, are simply explained, rather in the same way that those who had visions of airplanes, or men with flowing 'hair', had difficulty in knowing how to communicate the revelation their spirit had received. Therefore, as they had never known the indwelling Holy Spirit, but rather only the empowering (anointing for service) Holy Spirit, which gripped their mind and compelled them to live a certain way outwardly in demonstration of God's hold on them, they used word of outward significance, such as 'upon'.

I believe what Scripture says, not what we might imagine....

If a prophet or apostle writes the word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit, then it is pure. If the word of God spoke by Joel states that the Spirit of God is poured out "upon" and Peter states that Penecost is an example of this Spirit poured out "upon" the disciples then it must be true. We are given this testimony in Scripture on how God used His prophets...

Neh. 9:30 \tYet for many years You had patience with them,
\tAnd testified against them by Your Spirit in Your prophets.
\tYet they would not listen;
\tTherefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.

Here is another 'example" given to us in Scripture where the Spirit is "in' the prophets....Peter knew what Scripture indicated because he studied the Scriptures...

I often hear teachers say that Isaiah was "confused" by the order in which he wrote down the word of God...this of course is an error on the part of those who teach this way. The word of God is pure with out defect...it is our dispensational theology which hinders our understanding....

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Lyn,

In the example that I gave concerning the spiritual influence that Lucifer exacted on Belshazzar....

Dan. 5:22 “But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified.

In Isaiah we find that Belshazzar takes on the nature of Lucifer...do you recoginze the spiritual precept that is declared in Genesis 3:15?

In other words, does the OT Scripture teach that Satan becomes the father of all of those who walk in the way of Cain? And do his children take on the nature of their father?

In Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

Even when Jesus Did rise again, look at Thomas, who said, I won't believe until I see.

These are signs and wonders...look to the sign that God gave Hezekiah...

2Kings 20:11 So Isaiah the prophet cried out to the LORD, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down on the sundial of Ahaz.

God gives us signs and wonders so that we might believe that He is....but it is the ongoing obedience to the Spirit that causes us to know His word...

Proverb 1

23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

Well, many scriptures have layers of truth. The deeper layer of truth concerning the seed of David, and a sign to the House of David is that Jesus Christ will take the throne of David during the 1000 Year Kingdom Reig

Yes Scripture does have many layers of truth...like the example I posted in Isaiah that God gave King Ahaz revelation...in the same way we find another layer of the same prophesy given in Revelation...

Rev. 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who is this "woman" and who is "the male Child'?

A berean would search the Scripture, are you a berean?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Quote:

Linn wrote:

""One of my concerns about your way of reading the Old Testament, is that it undermines what Christ did come to do, by implying (almost) that His work was unnecessary, which this is definitely not the testimony of New Testament writers, nor the experience of those who have been purged from their sin and been born again""

Amen, for those that live in the old testament will die in the old testament.

Jhn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

They did not know Him.

Romans 10:1-5 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Christ is outside of the Law and He is perfect that has given us His perfectness by His birth in us from the Father.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So then how do we live without the Law?

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

How do we die in the Law?

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

No man keeps the Law and will parish. It was not Cain that caused the whole human race to fall, it was Adam because he believe a lie, and not the truth of God.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Our victory is not in the old testament but in the New and that victory is Christ in you the same mystery.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

All of the old testament is fulfilled in Christ, leading all of creation to the New Testament, and all of the new testament is fulfilled in Christ. The old has passed away, let us live in the New, which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Old Testament:

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

New Testament:

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who's Faith are we justified by?

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Made righteous by Christ in you. Justified in righteousness by Christ in you.

Righteous:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1343. dikaiosune
Search for G1343 in KJVSL
dikaiosunh dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Katy wrote:

The Old Testament is fulfilled in the New, and the New is revealed in the old.

I have heard this statement often... what does this mean to you that "the New is revealed in the old?"

Have you listened to any of the Revival Conference sermons? Is it proper for one to teach NT precepts found in the OT?

Your brother in Christ

Jeff

Sister Lyn asked:

Do you mean you are separating those who kill as Cain did, from those who do\\did not kill?

What I wonder is, why are you picking Cain and not Adam?

I used Cain as a means to show according to Scripture, because the Scriptures clearly states, that Cain became the son of Lucifer...

1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

In this section of Scripture we find that Abel was a child of God and Cain was a child of Satan. This precept is first revealed to us in Genesis 3:15. We see that hatred rose up between Abel and Cain because they had different spiritual influences...

So when God spoke to Satan...

Gen. 3:15 \tAnd I will put enmity
\tBetween you and the woman,
\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;

We see that the first example of this precept manifested itself in the lives of Cain and Abel. Cain was the seed of Satan. Abel was the Seed of the woman. If we say, as Brother Phillip often speaks of Christ being birthed in the individual, are not all who live as Abel the Seed of the woman?

Now this precept is not only manifested once in Scripture but throughout.

We find that those who grow more and more of the likeness of Satan display the same character as Satan.

Dan. 5:22 “But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified. 24 Then the fingers of the hand were sent from Him, and this writing was written.

In the book of Daniel we are given this description of a man who resembled the spiritual influence of his father Lucifer...
Dan. 5:22 “But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven.

Now look to Isaiah for more detail in the example above...
Is. 14:3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
\t“How the oppressor has ceased,
\tThe golden city ceased!
5 \tThe LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,
\tThe scepter of the rulers;
6 \tHe who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
\tHe who ruled the nations in anger,
\tIs persecuted and no one hinders.
7 \tThe whole earth is at rest and quiet;
\tThey break forth into singing.
8 \tIndeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
\tAnd the cedars of Lebanon,
\tSaying, “Since you were cut down,
\tNo woodsman has come up against us.’
9 \t“Hell from beneath is excited about you,
\tTo meet you at your coming;
\tIt stirs up the dead for you,
\tAll the chief ones of the earth;
\tIt has raised up from their thrones
\tAll the kings of the nations.
10 \tThey all shall speak and say to you:
\t“Have you also become as weak as we?
\tHave you become like us?
11 \tYour pomp is brought down to Sheol,
\tAnd the sound of your stringed instruments;
\tThe maggot is spread under you,
\tAnd worms cover you.’
12 \t“How you are fallen from heaven,
\tO Lucifer, son of the morning!
\tHow you are cut down to the ground,
\tYou who weakened the nations!
13 \tFor you have said in your heart:
\t“I will ascend into heaven,
\tI will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
\tI will also sit on the mount of the congregation
\tOn the farthest sides of the north;
14 \tI will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
\tI will be like the Most High.’
15 \tYet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
\tTo the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 \t“Those who see you will gaze at you,
\tAnd consider you, saying:
\t‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
\tWho shook kingdoms,
17 \tWho made the world as a wilderness
\tAnd destroyed its cities,
\tWho did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 \t“All the kings of the nations,
\tAll of them, sleep in glory,
\tEveryone in his own house;
19 \tBut you are cast out of your grave
\tLike an abominable branch,
\tLike the garment of those who are slain,
\tThrust through with a sword,
\tWho go down to the stones of the pit,
\tLike a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 \tYou will not be joined with them in burial,
\tBecause you have destroyed your land
\tAnd slain your people.
\tThe brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 \tPrepare slaughter for his children
\tBecause of the iniquity of their fathers,
\tLest they rise up and possess the land,
\tAnd fill the face of the world with cities.”
22 \t“For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts,
\t“And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,
\tAnd offspring and posterity,” says the LORD.

Do you recognize the way in which Isaiah who is inspired by the Holy Spirit, draws a likeness of Lucifer in the life of Belshazzar? This likeness is also prophesied to come again in the future when the Abomination of Desolation lifts himself up above all men and aspires to be God...do you see how Scripture covers all generations?

The spiritual influences establish the motivations of the heart. Do you recognize the spiritual influences at work in the life of Cain and Belshazzar and those who become the seed of their father Lucifer?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

I asked this question...

The spiritual influences establish the motivations of the heart. Do you recognize the spiritual influences at work in the life of Cain and Belshazzar and those who become the seed of their father Lucifer?

This spiritual influence born in men like Cain and Belshazzar also worked against those OT saints who were not of the same Father...

Heb. 11:32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

Why did these OT saints suffer? The answer is found in Genesis 3:15

In Christ
Jeff

This is a promise to all who turn at God’s rebuke…

Proverbs 1:23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

Look closely to what the promise brings to those who turn….

Below there are 3 examples of men who God spoke to…

Ezekiel 1:28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.

So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking. 1 And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” 2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

Jer. 1:9 Then the LORD put forth His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me:
\t“Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.

2Sam. 23:1 Now these are the last words of David.
\tThus says David the son of Jesse;
\tThus says the man raised up on high,
\tThe anointed of the God of Jacob,
\tAnd the sweet psalmist of Israel:
2 \t“The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
\tAnd His word was on my tongue.

What do we find when the Holy Spirit entered these men? What does it mean when God’s word is on their tongue, in their mouth?

Now look to the description of this event taught by Paul….

1 Corinthian 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

The Holy Spirit reveals the deep things of God to the spirit of man. And by this work of the Holy Spirit we are taught in this way…

Proverbs 1:23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

God says that He will make His words known to man by the pouring out of His Spirit on man.

This was testified to by Peter at Pentecost…

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 \t“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
\tThat I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;

Please notice that the action of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples….and God made known to them His words…

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
\tYour young men shall see visions,
\tYour old men shall dream dreams.
18 \tAnd on My menservants and on My maidservants
\tI will pour out My Spirit in those days;
\tAnd they shall prophesy.

These disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit just as Ezekiel was…

Ezekiel 2:
2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

There is no imagination involved, there is no private interpretation, there is only the word of God that is pure and that all Scripture supports itself….

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

These disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit just as Ezekiel was…

Ezekiel 2:
2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

There is no imagination involved, there is no private interpretation, there is only the word of God that is pure and that all Scripture supports itself….

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Why would Jesus Pray if they already had the Holy Spirit in them?

Why would He make the distinction of with you, and shall be in you?

Why in the old testament is the Holy Spirit upon them.

Why in the New testament Is Christ in you and the Holy Spirit in you the most prevent?

There is a difference from Pentecost forward.

In Christ: Phillip

Sis wrote:

When you introduce a phrase like 'seed of Satan' - even though it can be extrapolated from what God said to Eve

Sis, you have not seen what Scripture says...God speaks to each in their own judgment...

Gen. 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
\t“Because you have done this,
\tYou are cursed more than all cattle,
\tAnd more than every beast of the field;
\tOn your belly you shall go,
\tAnd you shall eat dust
\tAll the days of your life.

In this section... Scripture identifies Satan and what would be his judgment...

God finishes His thought with

15 \tAnd I will put enmity
\tBetween you and the woman,
\tAnd between your seed and her Seed;
\tHe shall bruise your head,
\tAnd you shall bruise His heel.”

God has not yet spoken to Eve..He has only spoken to Satan...

So when Scripture says..."And between your seed" who is the father of this seed?

Do you see what Scripture says?

There is no new terminology...I am sorry if Scripture does not fit certain doctrines that we have been trained to accept without searching Scripture for the truth...

Only the love of the truth will free us from deception.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

We learn so much about the charactor of God and how he deals with men, even in the OT, God had mercy. DAvid said His Mercy is New every day. That's true for today as well.

How are we any different than the men who lived in the generations prior to Christ's incarnation? Are not all men fallen and unable to please God? The books of Job, Proverbs, and Romans all teach that men are unable to please God because their minds are carnal.

So when Scripture says that:
Gen. 5:21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Whether it is the book of Genesis or Hebrews we find that Enoch "walked with God" and "that he pleased God."

To be very clear, how does God enable men to "walk with Him"?

What does Scripture say on this matter?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip asked"

Why would Jesus Pray if they already had the Holy Spirit in them?

Because He had not yet been glorified...

You see Jesus for a time lowered Himself...
Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Do you remember another prayer of Jesus where He asks the Father to restore His glory?

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Why in the old testament is the Holy Spirit upon them.

Brother, didn't you read in Scripture where Peter testifies that the prophesy of Joel had been witnessed by those 120 disciples on the day of Pentecost?

Again Scripture says...
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 \t“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
\tThat I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
\tYour sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
\tYour young men shall see visions,
\tYour old men shall dream dreams.

In verse 17 we see that the word of God says...
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit ((on)) all flesh:

God said it so I believe it....

In this Scripture is (((says)) that the Spirit of God (((entered)) Ezekiel....

Ezekiel 1:28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.

So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking. 1 And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” 2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

In this section of Scripture it ((says)) that the Spirit is "in" Joshua...

Num. 27:18 And the LORD said to Moses: “Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;

In this section of Scripture it ((says)) that the Spirit is "in" the prophets...

Neh. 9:30 \tYet for many years You had patience with them,
\tAnd testified against them by Your Spirit in Your prophets.
\tYet they would not listen;
\tTherefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.

And we know that Peter also confirms this precept...

1Pet. 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Likewise James writes:

James 4:5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?

What Scripture is James pointing too? NT or OT

Brother, the word of God says it... why don't you believe it?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Lyn wrote:

Then, your use of 'child of God' to describe Abel, doesn't find resonance anywhere in the Old Testament, and in the New, Abel is described as 'righteous' - meaning he pleased God.

Scripture says this, not me....

1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

In this section of Scripture, not me, it says that there are two families and two fathers...

Do you see in verse 10, "children of God" and "children of the devil"?

The OT is filled with this precept...here is a very clear example...

Deut. 8:5 You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the LORD your God chastens you.

As a man chastens as ((son)) so the Lord your God ((chastens you)).

We know from Scripture that the Lord chastens those whom are His sons...

Heb. 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Heb. 12:10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

Be a Berean Sis...

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

When you look in the OT you will find not more then 2 times the word FAITH used, however the Author of Hebrews was trying to tell these NT Saints that it has been FAITH all along, and uses examples from Genesis all the way up to The time that the one they had faith in actually came...Jesus Christ.

How does God create faith in the believer, according to the Scriptures?

Now the Actual has come, Jesus Christ, and no more sacrifice of animals are needed. They did this IN FAITH of the Redeemer promised in Genesis 3:15.

Yes you are correct in this, but there is much more to the book of Hebrews and Christ's offering...
Heb. 7:26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever. 1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

Heb. 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

In this section of Scripture we find this question....

Heb. 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer.

What is the answer, according to the Scripture that follows this section, in the book of Hebrews?

Thirdly, you mix the ressurection of the believers with the earthly work of God in the believers...this thread is on the Spirit of God and how He enables men to please Him before they die, not after....

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

However their faith in teh Redeemer was all tht was necessary to please God, and if you study Hebrews 11, their life reflected a life of Faith in what they looked forward to. Abraham looked for a City made without hands....Moses suffered with the People of God, counting the reproach of Christ more worthy then all the treasures of Egypt.

Each era, from Adam and Eve forward were responsible to live according to teh revealed knowledge given them...WE now have tht FULL knowledge and the Holy Spirit to live ours.

Gal. 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

In this section of Scripture we find that no one is justified by the law...

The law given to Moses on Mount Sinai condemns all under sin.

But what does Scripture say about those who are righteous like Abraham?

Gal. 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

What God has always required is that man listens and obeys Him. God spoke to Abraham and he believed Him. Whatever God says to a man, that is what God requires of that man.

Proverbs 1:

20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

Here we see the promise of the Spirit given to all who turn at His rebuke. The purpose for which the Spirit of God is poured out on a man is to "make my words known to you."

This is the revelation that is perfect in all generations, and is able to save, His incorruptible word. You will find that as men continue to listen and obey God, the hopes of their hearts grow in unity to desire the same things that Christ desires...

Look at the testimony of all of the OT saints...what do you find that is common to all...look for the heart of Christ.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

1 Corinthians 1:17-31 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

What is pleasing to God?

"it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe"

It pleased God. God was disposed, or well-pleased. The plan of salvation originated in His good pleasure, and was such as His wisdom approved. God chose this plan, so unlike all the plans of men.

What was His plan?

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Christ is the pleasing One, and only two others, Elijah and Enoch.

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Paul was pleasing to God and called Paul to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

This is what the Holy Spirit does: John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is also pleasing to God, for it is His beloved Son that accomplishes our salvation by His birth in us. This is what the Holy Spirit is for in this world:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

This Comforter had not come in this way ever before and He would proceed from the Father and testify of Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:16-18 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Hear ye Him.

If you don't hear Him by the Holy Spirit Comforter, you cannot be saved.

Hear Ye Him.

Before the Cross, Jesus Christ could not be heard in this way, taught by the Holy Spirit. Our Salvation is a complete new way of salvation.
That is The Holy Spirit in you and Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Not possible before the Cross.

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Lyn wrote:

But it is not divided between people, so that some people have the seed of Satan and some don't, and some people have the seed of the woman, and some don't. That's what is unsettling about this:

I believe Scripture teaches that we all are subjected to the influence of Satan and corruption. Yet Scripture also teaches that the Holy Spirit also gives witness to all. Thus all men are given both the knowledge of good and evil. This precept is found in Genesis 3 and 4. We all find ourselves condemned because of the evil that has corrupted us.

In speaking of the seed of Satan and the seed of the woman, if one were to look at this precept, in the same way we often do about predestination and election, we find that there is a story unfolding in every man's life. The story is similar to Cain and Abel. Each man is given the choice to believe God or to reject Him. Those who continually reject Him will continue to harden their own hearts. There comes a point in each rebellous life where God turns them over and removes the grace that was once given him. Without the knowledge of good, man is left to the ever growing influence of Satan. This growing influence of the evil one, conforms man into his image. Pride and self rule dominate this man unto his destruction.

There are other examples in Scripture, where God according to His purpose nurtures through His Holy Spirit, a man even when he is in the womb of the mother....

Jer. 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
5 \t“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
\tBefore you were born I sanctified you;
\tI ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

So in these examples above, we find that the Holy Spirit is given to those whom God has chosen for His specific purpose. These are they whom Paul teaches about to Timothy...

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Whether we are vessels of gold and silver, or wood and clay, the Holy Spirit is the means by which God gives freely to all men who turn to Him...

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

The sons of God obey the Spirit of God. The sons of Satan reject the Spirit and are conformed into the image of the evil one by his spiritual influence.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip quoted:

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Proverbs 1:

20 \tWisdom calls aloud outside;
\tShe raises her voice in the open squares.
21 \tShe cries out in the chief concourses,
\tAt the openings of the gates in the city
\tShe speaks her words:
22 \t“How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
\tFor scorners delight in their scorning,
\tAnd fools hate knowledge.
23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

Proverbs 2:
1 My son, if you receive my words,
\tAnd treasure my commands within you,
2 \tSo that you incline your ear to wisdom,
\tAnd apply your heart to understanding;
3 \tYes, if you cry out for discernment,
\tAnd lift up your voice for understanding,
4 \tIf you seek her as silver,
\tAnd search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 \tThen you will understand the fear of the LORD,
\tAnd find the knowledge of God.
6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;
\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 \tHe guards the paths of justice,
\tAnd preserves the way of His saints.
9 \tThen you will understand righteousness and justice,
\tEquity and every good path.
10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,
\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;
\tUnderstanding will keep you,

Proverbs 8:
30 \tThen I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
\tAnd I was daily His delight,
\tRejoicing always before Him,
31 \tRejoicing in His inhabited world,
\tAnd my delight was with the sons of men.
32 \t“Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
\tFor blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 \tHear instruction and be wise,
\tAnd do not disdain it.
34 \tBlessed is the man who listens to me,
\tWatching daily at my gates,
\tWaiting at the posts of my doors.
35 \tFor whoever finds me finds life,
\tAnd obtains favor from the LORD;

Is Christ this "wisdom" that Solomon writes about?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

Jeff, your answer is here, by a New and Living Way.

We are resurrected with Christ as we speak, and it is the resurrected life of Christ in us is that is pleasing to God.

WE are called into Romans 6-8. OT Saints were not.

I was pointing to Hebrews in chapter 8 specifically...

In Hebrews 7, the author instructs us about the Priesthood of Melchizedec and then compares Christ's priesthood to the Levitical priesthood...

Here are some of the comparisons...

Hebrews 7:
Heb. 7:23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Those of the Levitical priesthood die, but Christ's priesthood is unchangeable and continues forever.

Heb. 7:26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Here we find that the earthly priesthood had to offer up sacrifices continually for himself and then the flock. And of course we know that Christ offered Himself once for all...

Now the author writes this...and he says that this is the Main point....

Hebrews 8"
1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

So we are told that we should consider most of all with how He ministers to us...

Then the author points to the difference between what the earthly priesthood has to offer and heavenly priesthood...

He begins with this statement...

Heb. 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law;

He continues speaking about the law given on Mount Sinai, then he writes this...

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, “Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

What does it mean for those whom God promises to "put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts;" what does it mean for those have the promise from God, "I will be their God, and they shall be My people." What law does this?

Proverbs 8:
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;

"For whoever finds me finds life, and obtains favor from the Lord"

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Jeff,

Was David, Abraham, Moses, etc. born again?

If they were, when and how?

All you have written depends on man doing something to be pleasing to God. There is only one that is pleasing to God, that is Jesus Christ.

Tell me, How are we able to see the kingdom of God?

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Lyn asked:

Thus Saul, when he was wasting the Church of God before the Damascus road, was under grace?

Gal. 1:13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

1Tim. 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Acts 22:12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, “Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, “The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

The reason Paul persecuted the Way was due as he witnessed...

"did it ignorantly in unbelief."

Paul lived for God his entire life, Jesus counted him faithful and put him into ministry.

Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

There was a time in Jeremiah's life before God spoke to him...

There was a time in Ezekiel's life before God spoke to him...

There was a time in Abraham's life before God spoke to him...

All these men according to Scripture were chosen for a specific purpose...Paul was given the ministry to the Gentiles.

Paul writes this of the OT saints...

Romans 11:
4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

The remnant of God lived by grace through faith in all generations.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Katy wrote:

Jesus Christ is our High Priest, and we have In Christ been made a royal priesthood. As teh Chapter goes on, it is saying, you have no need that anyone need to teach you, for all will know the Lord from the smallest to the Greatest.

Yes this is the most important fact...

When Solomon wrote in Proverbs about this promise...

Proverbs 1:

23 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

In light of Psalm 119, in light of the NT, what do you think God teaches men by His Spirit when they repent? What kind of thoughts does God share with men when He speaks to them?

ps...

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Psalm 118
14 \tThe LORD is my strength and song,
\tAnd He has become my salvation.
15 \tThe voice of rejoicing and salvation
\tIs in the tents of the righteous;
\tThe right hand of the LORD does valiantly.
16 \tThe right hand of the LORD is exalted;
\tThe right hand of the LORD does valiantly.
17 \tI shall not die, but live,
\tAnd declare the works of the LORD.
18 \tThe LORD has chastened me severely,
\tBut He has not given me over to death.
19 \tOpen to me the gates of righteousness;
\tI will go through them,
\tAnd I will praise the LORD.
20 \tThis is the gate of the LORD,
\tThrough which the righteous shall enter.
21 \tI will praise You,
\tFor You have answered me,
\tAnd have become my salvation.
22 \tThe stone which the builders rejected
\tHas become the chief cornerstone.

I wonder how many builders of the temple reject Christ?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Brother Phillip asks:

Tell me, How are we able to see the kingdom of God?

Proverbs 123 \tTurn at my rebuke;
\tSurely I will pour out my spirit on you;
\tI will make my words known to you.

:Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Quote:

""""
Brother Phillip asks:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tell me, How are we able to see the kingdom of God?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proverbs 123 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

:Your brother in Christ
Jeff""""

Answer:

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who is the Word? John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Because He makes us sons and brothers: Phillip

Brother Phillip quoted:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Proverbs 123 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

Look at these two verses....we have the Holy Spirit being poured out on an individual with the purpose of making God's word known to that individual.

When you received the Holy Spirit, did this happen to you?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Sister Lyn wrote:

I think you know why I picked up on grace, as it is one of the factors which separates the Old and the New Testament.

Paul teaches that there is no separation of the grace given to the NT and OT saints...

Romans 10:
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

"All who call on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Psa. 105:1 \tOh, give thanks to the LORD!
\tCall upon His name;
\tMake known His deeds among the peoples!

Psa. 116:4 \tThen I called upon the name of the LORD:
\t“O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!”

Psa. 116:13 \tI will take up the cup of salvation,
\tAnd call upon the name of the LORD.

Psa. 116:17 \tI will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving,
\tAnd will call upon the name of the LORD.

Psa. 118:5 \tI called on the LORD in distress;
\tThe LORD answered me and set me in a broad place.

And by what means are they saved?

Rom. 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

According to Paul, in Elijah's generation, 7000 men were saved by grace who did not bow the knee to Baal. Now we know from Scripture that there are two fathers and two seeds. We know that most are the children of Satan. But there is a remnant, who because of God's grace, were enabled not to bow their knee to Satan. In Elijah's generation, these men were not saved by their works but by grace.

In Romans 11:1, Paul says that he is the seed of Abraham...

In Galatians...
Gal. 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

We see that no one is saved by the works of the law, but they are saved by the hearing of faith. Those who live by faith are the sons of Abraham, just as Paul was. "So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

Do you see that there is no difference in the grace extended to the OT saints. Faith comes to those whom hears the word of God, and do what He commands.

Paul heard the word of God and did what God told him to do.

Acts 22:12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, “Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, “The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Ananais was told by God to say these words to him..."The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and ((hear the voice of His mouth.))

This happened at Pentecost also...
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 \t“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
\tThat I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
\tYour sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
\tYour young men shall see visions,
\tYour old men shall dream dreams.

What is happens to men and women when the Spirit of God is poured out on them?

They prophesy, they are given visions, and dreams. And for what purpose? Is it not to know the mind of Christ?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff

Call on His Name;

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

When could they call on His Name?

Who's Name must we believe in?

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on Him which should come after Him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:29-31 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures
Ro 3:30
If so be that God is one (eiper heis ho theos). Correct text rather than epeiper. It means "if on the whole." "By a species of rhetorical politeness it is used of that about which there is no doubt" (Thayer. Cf. 1Co 8:5; 15:15; Ro 8:9. By faith (ek pisteôs). "Out of faith," springing out of. Through faith (dia tês pisteôs). "By means of the faith" (just mentioned). Ek denotes source, dia intermediate agency or attendant circumstance.

"Out of Faith"

"By means of the Faith"

See the difference.

In Christ: Phillip

[u]His hand pierced the fleeing serpent[/u]

I'm sorry, but what translation are you quoting from?

There is only one way God will speak to this generation, not by Abraham, not by Moses, or any other being will He speak but by the Son only.

Hebrews 1:1-14 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Thus separating the old from the New, He has and is now speaking only by the Son.

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,"

That is why the Holy Spirit only speaks what the Son has given Him. It is now. Now is the day of salvation by the Son.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

He would and could not speak such until the Son had been given, "upholding all things by the word of His power, when he had by Himself purged our sins,

Now is the day of this Salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord, not them of whom in the past were under the Grace of God through the upholding of the Law and animal blood for the covering of their sins.

Not the Living sacrifice of Jesus Christ the Son of God by who's blood the whole world is saved if they only believe,

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

"Certainly not by Abraham, but certainly by the covenant given to Abraham. Laid out very nicely in Galatians. If reading these scriptures very carefuly, you will see Fellow Heirs...but Fellow Heirs of or with what or who. It's not saying here Fellow heirs with Jesus but fellow heirs to the Covenant promised to Abraham"

Abraham's promise was the Seed, not seeds as of one man only, Jesus Christ.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Then we are fellow heirs with Jesus Christ to the Promise to Abraham, the Seed, Jesus Christ Himself.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Then the rest is plain when it comes to being heirs with and in Christ: Galatians 3:27-29 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Then are ye Abraham's Seed, which is Christ, then are Christs'.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I am not Abraham's seed, I am the Seed of Christ by the Father, who has birthed that Seed in me, as of the Only Begotten Son of God, so I am rebirthed into family of God not the family of Abraham.

Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

A son must be of the Father of whom he is the heir of.

This is what Paul is speaking of in all his epistles, his Gospel which was preached to him by Jesus Christ Himself for approx 3 years in Arabia.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

John Agrees with Him and so does Peter, finally.

1 John 3:1-3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

"Born of God" and "being born again of Incorruptable Seed".

1 Peter 1:21-23 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Hard to understand? Peter also, the one Peter mentions is Paul even in his last words.

2 Peter 3:15-18 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

In Christ: Phillip

The seed of Abraham is of Israel whom God chose to be the line of Jesus Christ, that is Mary and Joseph, descendants of Abraham, They are earthly. The Seed of Christ came from His Father, God which is heavenly. I don't know where our father Abraham is seated but I know that our Lord is seated in the heavenlies with our Father, God.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

I don't want to be a stone, I want to be birthed son of God, not a created stone.

Romans 4:1-3 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Not made righteous by the Christ that is in us.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It is truly not Abraham that lives in me, but the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me:

"Christ liveth in me": Phillip

m

Our roots are from before the beginning.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Jesus Christ is on this earth now. He is the Life of and in the believer now.

2Cr 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ's, even so [are] we Christ's.

To fulfill the Word of God in Christ Jesus and by His Blood.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

We are not earthly creatures, we are a new creation race of people, that is Christ persons. We are not of the old testament or have anything to do with the old testament we are in Christ which is the New Testament. God will still deal with Israel but not until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Then Israel will receive all the promises and covenants that God promised them for they will inherit the earth, as God promised and Israel will lead the whole earth to God, as they were supposed to do in the old testament and did not. This earthly promise will be complete by the Christ of the New Testament ruling and reigning with His Church and from the Throne of David, as is promised, on this earth. We the church are already seated in heavenly places with Christ and all that needs to take place is "The dead in Christ" are resurrected with those that are still alive and in Christ, which will only take a twinkling of an eye period of time. Thus, "we shall ever be with the Lord. These are the words we are to be comforted with. "In Christ"

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

We are not in Abraham, I don't care how many times it says we are, the Word Himself supersedes all claim to be connected to the Old Testament and those that try are commingling the Scripture and not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

We are born again son's of God, adopted and birthed by God the Father, even in His Son Jesus Christ. There are no persons called Christians before Antioch.

Acts 11:19-26 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

This Paul did to fulfill the Word of God, not to continue it from the old testament but to fulfill the old testament with the New Testament in Christ.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1Cr 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

In Christ by the fulfillment of God the Father, and the preaching of Paul, given direct to him by Jesus Christ Himself: Phillip

Phillip

Quote:

""
Yes, God's plan of Salvation certainly was before teh foundation of the World, and so was God's knowledge of Abraham as well before the foundation fo the world.

God has chosen Abraham, the Father of our faith, to be our example of true genuine faith among other things.

I do believe Calvinism overlooks these facts, preaching instead a secret society of the elect, taking many scriptures out of context to prove what is not there.

Because Calvinism ( some extreme teachings) teach that God just picked your name out of a hat, no need for repentance leading to faith in the finished work of Christ...or the evidence of that faith working through us.

The faith of Abraham is the faith of obedience as James also tries to tell us.

Because of a doctrine not believing that anyone can have this faith apart from being first elect and born again first to have it leads to this total severing of our roots, to the Promises made to Abraham...BY OATH.""

How did Calvin get in this?

Which Faith would you prefer, the reckoned righteousness of Abraham, or the Made Righteous by the Faith of Jesus Christ?

Rom 4:9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Or the righteousness of Jesus Christ, that is birthed in you? Made righteous.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him (God the Father) are ye in Christ Jesus, who (Jesus Christ) of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Our Glory is in Jesus Christ and no one else. Abraham's Faith which is reckoned and Abraham's righteousness does not have the capacity for salvation. Only the Faith of Jesus Christ will save to the utmost.

Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

How are we not sinners? 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed (Jesus Christ) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In our Spirit which is Jesus Christ after becoming Born Again, we cannot sin because our Spirit is Christ Himself, the Incorruptable Seed of the Father.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

But if we sin in the Flesh, it is not sinning in the Spirit or Christ could not be our spirit, because Christ and Sin cannot exist in the same spirit of a person. But if a MAN sin, which is in his own flesh sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ The only Righteous One, and God the Father is Just and Faithful because of the Christ that is our spirit to forgive and cleanse our flesh from all sin.

1 John 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The sin of the flesh is forgivable, the Sin of the Spirit is impossible because our Spirit is the Son of God and He cannot sin, Christ is Not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works in our soulish part, which is the mind and the soul of man, which learns to fall in Love with the Christ that is now the Spirit of the Man.
Satan out Christ in.

So the Faith of Christ and the Spirit of Christ is what accomplishes The Work before the foundation of the earth, that is: Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How are we holy and without blame? Living by the Faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Who now lives in us? The Son of God. Who's Faith do we live by? The Faith of the Son of God.

This is what Paul calls the Mystery, "that is Christ in you the hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:24-29 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is what fills up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: This is our ministry, the ministry of reconciliation, The reconciliation of Christ to the believer and the Body of Christ, His Church.

Abraham cannot do this.

2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Hbr 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto [His] brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Be reconciled to God By Jesus Christ who is our all in all.

In Christ: Phillip

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"And that not of yourselves"; even the act of faith through which salvation is bestowed, is not of yourselves. Thus not only the favor, but even the willingness to receive the favor, is the gift of God.

If we are saved by the Faith of Jesus Christ, then we are sanctified by the Faith of Jesus Christ, You cannot have one without the other.

For God has made Him to be our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

"That not of yourselves."

If this sanctification takes my faith to believe unto salvation and my works to keep salvation, then the scripture and Jesus Christ are wrong and He died for nothing.

Romans 6:6-11 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Did you die on the cross with Jesus Christ? If your answer is yes, then through Jesus Christ we are alive unto God, if the answer is not then your sin remains. We must see ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God, by the work of Christ at the Cross. Not my faith, not my sanctification, not my righteousness, not my wisdom, and most assuredly not my redemption, but is Christ that is all this unto me by His Faith that works all my capacity to be saved, to be redeemed, sanctified, and made righteous, and wise unto Grace of God in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

"""Again, Jesus Christ is the GIFT, not faith. We are not saved by faith through grace , but by Grace through faith. Please know the difference"""

And again:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

These scriptures are separating the Law and the Faith of Jesus Christ. This is the Faith that leads us to salvation, if the deeds of the Law can bring no person to Christ then no person can come to Christ by His own works of Faith either.
It must take the Faith of Christ to even understand the things of the Kingdom of God. For unless you are born again and have Christ birthed in us, we cannot even understand the things of God supplied by the Holy Spirit to our soulish part. The Spirit is Christ and we now live by the Faith of the Son of God, which without His Faith we live in our own flesh in our own faith reckoned as righteousness because we do what God says. If we don't do what God says we are not righteous. Jesus Christ has become righteousness in us and it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me that produces initial salvation by His Faith and continued salvation by His Faith, led by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This is the righteousness of Jesus Christ Himself, that righteousness making us pleasing to the Father and the only righteousness we can lay hold of that is pleasing to the Father.

For our righteousness is as dirty rags to the Father.

If I am righteous because I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then Christs righteousness is void and I am righteous in my own faith and works.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

I don't live any more, for it is Christ who liveth in me and the life I now live, I live by the Faith of the Son of God, which was given His Faith was given to me and I believed by the Faith of the Son of God that He truly is the Son of the Living God, the only begotten of the Father and the first fruit of this new creation race of People, we are now of this first fruit. It is His Faith that brings forth fruit. Its His Faith that brings forth righteousness, It is God the Fathers work the gives birth of His Son in the believer.

When the time and the circumstances and situations were perfect in this dispensation of Grace, Paul was given these truths that are "hard to understand," written by Peter. The birthing is the thing that is hard to understand. Did your Father consult with you before you were conceived? The Same go for our Heavenly Father. All that the Incorruptable Seed of The Father when it was give and birthed in the believer. God did not ask us if we would give Him permission to birth His Son in us. No person is ever in his own works righteousness or faith able to birth himself.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1 Peter 1:20-23 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

You must leave your antagonism for Calvin out of this truth of the Scripture or you will never understand the birthing of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Seek and you will find, The Holy Spirit revelation given to Paul. Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is revealed the same way to all son's and daughters that have hungry hearts and want more and more of the Christ that is in them.

2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Know Him:

Philippians 3:9-10 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

Me:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you die on the cross with Jesus Christ? If your answer is yes, then through Jesus Christ we are alive unto God, if the answer is not then your sin remains.
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Quote:

You:

"""Absolutely...but now that your are alive unto God what, Wasn't Paul alive unto God at his moment of salvation .....and it didn't end there....What about when he laid down his to follow Jesus Christ at all cost, walking in those works from the foundation of the world?

Thank you Paul for that obedience unto death. Thank you that you were a gift to us in hearing the Gospel."""

Amen.

Quote from Paul, "and nevertheless I live".

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We must see ourselves as dead as He was, when His dead Head fell on dead shoulders, that was me also, dead to this world and dead to sin and alive unto God by the birth of the resurrected Jesus Christ, in whom we are resurrected from the dead and unto our life in Christ unto the Father of us all and by His Son Jesus Christ who is our all in all.

In Christ: Phillip

1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.

Before the Cross this Gospel could not have taken place, No Blood shed yet.

Colossians 1:13-14 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

What was done in Jerusalem, what the agreement was, that the Gospel would go to the Gentiles also.
It was not agreed upon that The Glory of the Gospel was Christ in them, which only Paul preached. Peter never preached Christ in the believer, only that they had received the Holy Spirit as they had at Pentecost, and that was to go to the Gentiles also. Peter only mentions the in Christ position in his final epistles, that is: 1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Here He is able to separate the soul from the spirit and showing that having been with Paul understood that Christ was in him, birthed of the Father and the Holy Spirit was the purifier of our soul-mind by His keeping the Word of Christ that the Holy Spirit would teach us all things that pertain to Christ Himself and not speak of Himself,(The Holy Spirit), but only speak of what He is given by Jesus Christ.

Peter never preached the final Gospel given to Paul, until he understood from Paul and the Revelation of the Holy Spirit, which is: Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Peter only preached that they had crucified the Lord of Glory. Paul got the final Gospel which was to fulfill what Peter was preaching. That is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", which no man knew except Paul who preached it always. Peter finally got the truth given to Paul by his association with Paul and by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:3-4 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

How are we partakers of the divine nature? Only by the rebirthing of the Christ that they new was the Son of God. Although this birthing happened at Pentecost, they did not know it until Paul gave them the mystery that Jesus Christ Himself had been birthed in them. Peter finally understood it form Paul and the revelation of the Holy Spirit which is the only way this finality to the Gospel can be accepted.

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul not only wrote to Peter but to all that Peter was over in his ministry to the Jews.

This is not a new Gospel or Mystery if you will, but it has not been revealed to anyone but Paul and that is why God chose Paul. Acts 26:14-18 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

"Sanctified by the Faith that is in ME: (Jesus Christ Himself)

This is Paul's testimony: The Final Gospel;
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The fulfillment of the Word of God:
Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

This is the only way we become perfect and are able to see the things of the Kingdom of God.
"In Christ Jesus" being born again.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This is truly the birthing: The Incorruptable Seed born again in us by the Father of all that the Son of God did at the Cross. Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The Final Gospel, Amen. The fulfillment of The Word of God by which we will be judged. Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Edited for judgement.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

""Paul was not an original Apostle who spent time person to person with Jesus. I’m sure Jesus shared many things with the Apostles with His time with them, and also the days afterHe rose from the dead (40) that Paul was not privy""

I disagree with you. Jesus said He had things to say but they would not understand them or bear them.

Jhn 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

These are the things that Jesus gave to Paul to say to His body the Church, they could not bear it until He was ascended and returned in the believer, and the Holy Spirit was given to be able to understand this truth of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Paul was persecuted in that he would fill up that which is behind of the affliction in Christ.

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Paul had to fight then, just like he fights in the hearts of those that won't follow his as he follows Christ, and miss the center peace of Gods plan, that is God Himself putting another person in the believer and making the believer and birthed son of God and not a created being ruled by another created being, Satan. He puts a new life in the believer and the creature becomes completely new, All things are past away and All things are become new. That includes our spirit, which is Christ, our soul-mind which is the Holy Spirit and the body has been quickened to contain The God Head Himself, we are "IN CHRIST", and Christ is in us, we are filled with the Holy Spirit, and He quickens our mortal bodies to contain this complete new being, That is me walking on this earth as He is, When I get up in the morning it is He who wants to walk in me and use this new creature to bring forth the greater works than He did through me and in me and as me. That is how much we must take the birth of this Son of God to our understanding and Follow Paul as He follows Christ.

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

1Cr 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

Born Again by the Christ in me: Phillip