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A MUST LISTEN TO :Carter Conlon/Neil Rhodes

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dohzman

It was a priviliage and honor to spend time with these two brothers beyond the conference.When Pastor Conlon returned to NY he shared a message that everyone who listened to the conference as well as attended the conference needs to listen to. If you listen close you'll hear two extremes in the church, both are false, the one is the prosperity gospel, the other is the works gospel of self abasement filled with false humility and man generated repentance and holiness. Listen to it and recieve instruction from the heart of God.

http://www.tscnyc.org/sermons.php The message is called: Beware Of The Angry Watchmen

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crsschk

Thank you brother will defenitely be listening to this ... And just in case, thank you brother for all that you did over the course of last week.

Had heard from someone that Times Square Church had set aside some special time to pray over the conference ...

D
dohzman

Bump

I
igy

This was a excellent message. I believe a word from God. I encourage all to listen and allow God to deal with you.

God bless,
Igy

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InTheLight

This message made me tremble. Let us take heed of these things if we are going to dare to take up the word of God and speak in His name in the days to come. There is true revival and there is false revival, God help us to know the difference.

In Christ,

Ron

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Corneliu

Brother Carter talks about a false "holiness revival".
Does anybody know if anythig at the Revival Conference might of prompted that message? And what is the false holiness he is reffering to?

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sermonindex


Listening now! :-)

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sermonindex

WOW! This is a prophetic message from a dream Carter Conlon had and encourages all to listen and distribute to friends. Thanks for sharing!

I wanted to just encourage everyone to stay away from those who pull you down and discourage you.

IF IT DOESN'T DRAW YOU CLOSER TO GOD AND MAKES YOU WANT TO GIVE UP STAY AWAY FROM THEM OR IT!!!

We cling to so many things that pull us down thinking they are helping us when they are only hindering us.

C
ChrisJD

Have been thinking about this verse lately:

"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."


[i]...let each esteem other better than themselves[/i]

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dohzman

You have to rember that the parisee had an outward form of godilness but inwardly was full of dead mens bones, Jesus said of the scribes that they made the way to God difficult. We are only changed as we see Jesus, we go from glory to glory. As a minister, or preacher if you will, if I can't bring a clear picture of who Jesus is, or what His doctrine is, lifting Him high in the sight of the congregation, than I have failed.

And what is the false holiness he is reffering to?

It's a man centered attempt at becoming holy. Usually has a strong outward code or ethic in dress as well as disposition. Instead of saying that one should dress modestly and allowing the Holy Spirit to bring a sense of personal conviction, we say dress modestly and this how and what you wear and how you dress in order to fit in and show that you are holy. The same is true about disposition, we say be gentle, humble, kind...etc...these are the workings of the Holy Spirit, His fruit, humility is nothing more than perfect yeildedness to the Spirit of the Living God in obedience. But we tell people "if you act a certain way than you are humble" and so the list goes on. The false holiness revival is a manward attempt at being holy. Like Paul said in Galatians,O'foolish galatians having begun in the spirit are you now made pefect in the flesh?And I know he was talking circumcision, however the principle is the same.
The narrow path that Jesus was talking about was was a life fully devoted to beholding Him and following Him, the change that occurs in us happens very naturally as we look upon Him.

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sermonindex

Here is the sermon on video:

http://www.tscnyc.org/sermons_on_video.php

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intrcssr83

Just heard it. I'm still trying to process it together, but what I gather from his prophecy was:
1. The modern prosperity gospel along with many other movements based upon counterfeit spiritual experience is reaching the point where the fruits of it's corruption, licentiousness and greed will be made manifest.
2. God will draw forth his children that have been trapped within these movements and bring them into the true church (praise God!)
BUT!
3. Satan will rise up a counterfeit holiness revival that is nothing more than no. 1's mirror image, a system of legalism that tears down the Body rather than build it up.

That is indeed scary. What we here at SI have been praying for could actually become the guise for Satan's final assault on the bride.

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intrcssr83

Call this paranoid, but I just had this thought: If an "anti-revival" based on legalism dressed up as "holiness" is indeed coming, than those of us who have struggling in "club frustration" (i.e., being in a lukewarm church while having a heartburden to get people motivated to seek personal and corporate revival leading to increased prayer, devotion and evangelism) are in for one very hard time.

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intrcssr83

Double post. Sorry

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sermonindex


Daryl said

The narrow path that Jesus was talking about was was a life fully devoted to beholding Him and following Him, the change that occurs in us happens very naturally as we look upon Him.
Been thinking about this recently and how easy it is to see one's shortcomings in the light of His countenance. It's not that they don't seem so bad, but in the light of His love, they appear to us with the solution or the start of it (repentance) very accessible.

Haven't heard the message yet, but will do asap.

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sermonindex


intrcssr83 wrote:
Call this paranoid, but I just had this thought: If an "anti-revival" based on legalism dressed up as "holiness" is indeed coming, than those of us who have struggling in "club frustration" (i.e., being in a lukewarm church while having a heartburden to get people motivated to seek personal and corporate revival leading to increased prayer, devotion and evangelism) are in for one very hard time.

Yes, it will be a hard time for those coming out of these movements but if we stay in a spirit of love for these people God can use us to help turn the tide that is against them. They are going to need to see the love of Christ in us.

I believe we are all either experiencing this kind of thing or may have been through it before.This to me is a picture of a christian who has a burning heart for God. She (the bride) comes after Christ but those who are supposed to be brethren and lovers of God also want to keep her away out of self righteousness.

Self righteousness can so consume us that we forget the love of God and lose the heart of God.


C
coffee

Bump

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sermonindex


coffee wrote:
Bump

I agree coffee we need to keep bumping this up. :-)

This church has been such a blessing to me since I have been saved! I enjoy listening to these sermons. We need to do those things that draw us closer to the father and steer away from those that don't.

These sermons are provisions from the Lord and He has set the table! :-)


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RobertW

This is a VERY important message. This could be the most important message you ever listen to if you aspire to preach repentance. I have been hearing this same thing for some time now.

ANGER is the enemy of every revival. [u]Anger[/u] is not anointing- it is the fires of hell. The wisdom that comes down from above is first pure and peacable and gentle- full of good fruits and mercy.

In fact, I spoke a very similar message on Sunday night from Numbers 11 as God had spoken to me at the conference that the danger we face today is an lust filled congregation that will not hear from God- and an ANGRY watchman. Moses smote the rock out of anger. This is always the danger ministers face in the midst of a perverse generation. We could misrepresent God at a critical time and we need to allow God to deal with that tendency in us before He can rightly use us.

He is not sending us to the 'well' but to the 'sick'. If we are not of the right temperement we cannot rightly deal with His people. God wants to use many young ministers, but they are loose canons that need to get a handle n their anger. Let me echo and affirm the witness of what the Holy Spirit is saying in the Churches right now. I was hearing almost the same thing- God is witness.

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nicetiga

This message came at a perfect time.
It seems for the last few months, I have been seeking God, and I have been coming into what seemed to be a brick wall, in a sense, because I make mistakes in my walk with God, to see his heart for me and my life, actually excited about giving God my heart, and his future for me, and my returning once again to his mercy.

This message showed me that The enemy points to us, and tell us there is something wrong with your garment, you are not clean, you can't approach the king now. Literally the enemy producing lying signs and wonders (Pastor Carter talked about Lies Within and Without) to show me that God is actualy angry with me, Bless God the enemy and his LIE is exposed. God Loves Me!!!


The Video is now availible.

http://media.tscnyc.org/wmv/2071028S1.asx

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InTheLight

nicetiga,

Praise God, thank you for sharing this testimony. It is good to hear that there is fruit from this message already, or perhaps to follow the metaphor in Mr Conlon's dream, yours is one house that has been plucked from the flames. Glory to God!

In Christ,

Ron

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dohzman

bump----I think this is such a timely message that everyone who frequents this board should hear it, so I'm going to keep bumping it. God Bless.

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sermonindex

My concern is that as many come out of the false belief systems, and someone comes along their side to help them to know a narrow walk they have never known, this message may only confirm their fleshly desire to cast off restraint.

Here are some thoughts that I pulled out of an email where a brother and I have been discussing this sermon.
===================
===================

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. This part of the message bares strong witness to me, as I have been in prayer and Christ has been showering me with His love in the secret closet. I also have been watching my attitudes to be sure that love is covering over a multitude of sins and have had to go back and make some things straight recently. You know I have struggled with condemnation in the past but through faith I have the victory brother, there is no condemnation for those truly in Christ Jesus!

I will say this about this message though... if it is heard wrong it could do great damage. Can you imagine if a Charles Finney or Jonathon Edwards comes through New York and start preaching repent or a sermon on "you adulterous people"... and those who have heard this message shut their ears against the true watchman and prophet (and even pity them).

Christs love will not just save us from condemning voices, it will save us from our sin... that probably could have been mentioned in the message also. There are those who falsely consider themselves part of the bride and this message will cause their ears to be shut further... I suppose the word of God has always done that though.

So I find this message refreshing and troublesome at the same time. It was said of Finney that he preached for days and days on sin and judgment before mentioning forgiveness through Christ. I can just see an unconverted member of Time Square Church walking by him and shouting "Quit hurling rocks at me... you need to repent you angry watchman".

Brother, we must guard ourselves against error on every side and be prepared to be called legalist and judgmental, making every certainty that our hearts are filled with the love of Christ Himself. We must also be sure that pride does not slip in through the flesh and cause us to work against the very kingdom we claim to give our lives for. As for me I trust in Christ to keep my heart and guard my preaching during these dark days of confusion on all sides. I am called lascivious for owning a TV by some brothers and am called a legalist for warning others that they should examine why they are watching the Simpson's and Family Guy...

Yet I trust in the solid rock who will keep my heart and lead me in all truth... and also those who are of His elect. May God keep us onto that day brother. The Lord has shown me that the false gospel is imitating the true gospel more and more... on both sides, legalism and lasciviousness.

M
myfirstLove

WoW, Jim, you took the words out of my heart! I was thinking the same thing as you.

I do understand what Mr. Conlon is saying, but like you Jim, I could see others taking it to another extreme.

We need to balance his message out with his other sermons. Mr. Conlon does preach agaist sin, ect....We must remember the other message he preached in Ohio and balance that out with this message.

Its interesting that he ended this message with getting this word in OHIO.

God gave me a couple of dreams way before this Conference about a certain teacher who preaches more legalism, attaining holiness by our own stregnth, focusing more on self instead of looking to Jesus. That kind of stuff leads to condemnation and hopelessness.

You find Paul and all the prophets rebuking His people harshly of their backsliding, but they always remind them of who they are in Christ, not leaving them in hopelessness, but encouraging them that God is so for you (Jer.29:11)

I do believe also this is a timely message, for so many of His people are living in hopelessness because focusing on sin/self, not being reminded to look unto Jesus for victory.

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RobertW

I will say this about this message though... if it is heard wrong it could do great damage. Can you imagine if a Charles Finney or Jonathon Edwards comes through New York and start preaching repent or a sermon on "you adulterous people"... and those who have heard this message shut their ears against the true watchman and prophet (and even pity them).

Christs love will not just save us from condemning voices, it will save us from our sin... that probably could have been mentioned in the message also. There are those who falsely consider themselves part of the bride and this message will cause their ears to be shut further... I suppose the word of God has always done that though.

The challenge as a minister is to always beware of what spirit we are of. There is a spirit that would call fire down from heaven. There is a wisdom that is earthly, sensual, and demonic- that sets on fire the course of nature with the fires of hell. this wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peacable, gentle, without hypocrisy, etc.

I think a good indicator as to what spirit we are of is our response to those seeking repentance. Is it one of celebration and rapturious joy- or do the angry feelings and indignations remain? I fear that repentance may well be preached and once the people repent the minister would continue to lash them as the come. It is a matter of what spirit we are of. When a person repents does the minister rejoice or do they probe a little deeper in order to maintain and justify that addictive angry feeling - that they may well be confusing with unction- when they find the next shortcoming? The wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God.

We MUST be led of the Spirit. We must be co-laborers together with God and not trying to work in an area that God is not dealing with on our own accord. God has a plan to work things out. We have to get in step with Him or we could marr the whole design.

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sermonindex


The truth of the matter is that people can take things and twist them no matter what you say. You could tell somebody "GOD LOVES YOU!" and they can interpret that a million different ways.

Pastor Conlon's message could not be preached any clearer.

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sermonindex

I think a good indicator as to what spirit we are of is our response to those seeking repentance. Is it one of celebration and rapturious joy- or do the angry feelings and indignations remain?

I guess the thing is I have never heard of anyone besides Jonah who had this attitude...

Time will bear witness to the testimony of this word.

In Christ - Jim

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sermonindex


jimdied2sin quoted

...I can just see an unconverted member of Time Square Church walking by him and shouting "Quit hurling rocks at me... you need to repent you angry watchman"...
In all sincerity, did the brother who wrote that think Carter Conlon sounded angry?

Do either of you hear the question\\rebuke which came to [i]him[/i] in the dream?

glorytoglory said

Pastor Conlon's message could not be preached any clearer.
The way I heard it, it was full of [i][b]love[/b][/i], and entreaty.

He said something like ... 'There was a sense that if they could get to higher ground, they would be safe'... but people were 'discouraged' because of the way they had been preached to. :-o

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sermonindex

Can you please clarify what you mean by quoting me sister.

In Christ - Jim

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RobertW

I guess the thing is I have never heard of anyone besides Jonah who had this attitude...

Time will bear witness to the testimony of this word.

In a lot of circles it has already [i]started[/i] to come to pass. The radical group in Topeka, Ks is case in point. As a minister that deals week in and week out with people in all areas of life I can attest to the ease with which, if a person were not careful, they would become angry and allow that anger to corrupt their heart and ministry. It is the 'dead fly' in the ointment.

Notice the progression. One candle. One document. Then the books. Then the house. Then the neighborhood. The wrath of man is not the recipe for our times. Not even in the least. We have to have the mind and heart of Christ. We dare not offer up strange fire in our ministry- a fire that is not the fires of revival- but the fires of human passion and frustration.

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sermonindex

The wrath of man is not the recipe for our times. Not even in the least. We have to have the mind and heart of Christ. We dare not offer up strange fire in our ministry- a fire that is not the fires of revival- but the fires of human passion and frustration.

This is where I go back to my original question...

How many people heard that sermon and will now be devisive against the genuine open air preacher, against the next John Wesley or Goerge Whitfield who stand and name the sins of the lukewarm church and call her to repentance.

In Christ - Jim

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sermonindex


jimdied2sin asked

Can you please clarify what you mean by quoting me sister.
If you mean me? I wasn't aware I was quoting you, as that is not clear from how you pitched your quote.

Is there a problem with my quote?

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sermonindex

You were quoting me (that is a quote of a quote from an email)

There is no problem, I just didn't see any relation between that quote and what you wrote under it... I guess I was looking for clarification on why you asked about anger? I think I may have been unclear in what I wrote about Finney or you may have misunderstood.

In Christ - Jim

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sermonindex

jimdied2sin,

Although we may esteem men like Finney, Wesley or Spurgeon, ultimately our example must be Christ Himself. Men are not perfect Christ is. This was the point of Carter Conlons message. All of us must look unto Jesus. As we behold Him we can rightly lead people back to the simplicity that is found in Him and His Word.

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sermonindex

By the way. I have ran across several sermons on this site that would fit under an "Angry Watchman" category. We would do well to remember that when visiting the site.

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sermonindex

Brother-

I am just using these men as examples of genuine revival (though some will argue Finney)... that is all. Paul said to imititate him, I am using proven saints of God who preached in revival and showing that some could view Conlons message as coming against them.

Because we have a false love gospel in our modern church system... many could interpret the angry watchman message as avoiding annointed preachers because they "sound angry".

Of course if you listen to Dave Wilkerson, he often sounds angry, but we know he weeps for the people... my point is that this message has strong power to innoculate the backslidden, lukewarm and false converts from receiving a message from a true prophet of God.

To quote a dear saint I know "Let us never be lovers of mens feelings more then we are lovers of their souls".

In Christ - Jim

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sermonindex

By the way. I have ran across several sermons on this site that would fit under an "Angry Watchman" category. We would do well to remember that when visiting the site.

Could you PM me brother so I can get a clue where you are coming from brother. I am really perplexed. One person mentioned the so called church that protests military funeral. I dont think they are in the equation as they dont carry the pretense of revival preachers, they are clearly not of God.

Please PM me if you can so I can understand this.

In Christ - Jim

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sermonindex

jim,

I think these verses are worth meditating on...

Brethren, even if a man be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man thinketh himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Galatians 6:1-3

As far as the sermons from this site that fall under that category I would encourage you to seek out the mind of Christ and He will show you. I don't care to name specific names.

Blessings!

S
sermonindex

Brethren, even if a man be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man thinketh himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

This takes quite a bit of judgment to determine who the angry watchmen are. If I do not like the tone of a preacher or a certain word he uses shall I then judge and divide the body of Christ by calling him an agry watchman????

Was James an angry watchman?

James 4:4You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

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sermonindex

Brother... I have a feeling that we wouldn't agree on who the angry watchmen are! Thats alright though, let us discern and judge everything by the whole council of God.

For instance, if some saw me on a street corner preaching "The Lord Jesus Christ is coming back in flaming fire...." They would deem me an angry watchman.

[b]
That is the danger of the angry watchman message. It calls for those who believe themselves to be part of the bride (70% of america) and have been preached a false love and false Jesus to plug their ears to anyone they dont like the sound of and write them off as being an angry watchman.

The jews of Jeremiahs day did not like the sound of what he was saying. To them HE WAS AN ANGRY WATCHMAN!
[/b]

Spiritual blessings to you in Christ Jesus

-Jim

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sermonindex

jim,

I don't think he would fall into that category because his ultimate exhortation was to "draw near to God and He will draw near to you".

In the message CC explains that our passionate plea for repentance must be in a heart of mercy that encourages people back to their first love.

My concern is when I hear about a message on the internet that boasts "the speaker was asked to leave and never invited back".

That stinks of pride, anger and the exaltation of the man rather than of a lifting up of Christ.

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sermonindex

My concern is when I hear about a message on the internet that boasts "the speaker was asked to leave and never invited back".

Brother,

Jesus was asked to leave and never come back... Jeremiah was thrown in a well... John Wesley was kicked out of every place he preached. In modern america, this a greater sign that Gods blessing is on you then being invited back over again.

In Christ - Jim

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sermonindex

Your right we probably won't agree. That is why we must each "look unto Jesus" ourselves.

This debate could go on forever my brother...but I think we need to "go and learn mercy".

I haven't learned it yet and this is why I need more of Him everyday.

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RobertW

How many people heard that sermon and will now be devisive against the genuine open air preacher, against the next John Wesley or Goerge Whitfield who stand and name the sins of the lukewarm church and call her to repentance.

Hopefully those that heard will realize that it was not the genre of the message, but the [i]spirit[/i] behind it. The issue is the attitude with which the Bride is being handled. you will also notice that Jesus dealt with the churches by first showing them what they were doing right. Not all churches are lukewarm. The danger is in taking pleasure in thrashing the sheep. And because society is 'trend' driven- soon it would be in vogue to just thrash sinners that God is leading through repentance.

This message is an advanced warning. To be forewarned of the enemies strategy is to be forearmed in prayer to head off a potential disaster.

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sermonindex

God bless you as you continue in your walk brother.

-Jim

C
coffee

On having listened, watched the sermon now for the 5th time ...the statements in the sermon that stand out to me are ....

The people who were caught in a snare, or down the wrong path and NOW realize I want the CHRIST of the BIBLE ....(that says to me a repentant heart, not someone trying to justify the wrong in their lives, and wanting to have a preacher tell them everything is okay, but a person saying show me now the right way), looking for their Beloved looking for TRUTH ...and the ones that had them ensnared are now going to say it's not by Faith, it's not by repentance and turning to God with all of your heart, but now you must pay the price, penence (spelling?) You must now work your way back into good grace with God....

They will be angry .... I know I came out of a church that went "Seeker Friendly" and went into a church that was having "Revival" He preached and taught the Bible ... I realized after a period of time though that he a rod in his hands and was beating the sheep saying...you will never be good enough, you will never make it, you will never be Holy enough, UNLESS you do what I say .... and would take scripture to back up what he was saying...

The true Shepherd that leads the sheep and not drives them beating them was not being shown, He was laying burdens on the people that he himself was not bearing....

Please God help me to put down the stones and fill my hands with the Sword of the Spirit and the Shield of Faith ...that I will defend Truth and your Bride... fighting off the fiery darts of the evil one ...not slaying the weak and the feeble.... But lifting up Holy hands without wrath..... God help us in these last days to put off anger and put on your armour ... and walk in your love and compassion ...in TRUTH.

Your Sister in Jesus,
Coffee

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sermonindex

This message is an advanced warning. To be forewarned of the enemies strategy is to be forearmed in prayer to head off a potential disaster.

And so it is bro. I have stated my concerns with the way that the message was left sounding a bit vauge on what constitutes an angry watchman. If it were from anyone else (except Dave Wilkerson) I would most likely toss it aside as just another prophesy...

Blessings to you in Christ brother.

R
Rahman

Hey Bro Daryl ...

i had to go back and listen to this message a second time because at first it really bummed me out as initially i found it somewhat irratating ... This second time i still find it troubling ... Maybe somethings wrong with me here so please pray for me, but the same guys of the prosperity gospel, flip moding and becoming the purveyors of a new and legalistic "false revival"? ... Not saying it can't be true, time will tell, but i'd be lying if i said it does't seem far fetched ... What will be they're motivation since clearly the prosperity guys like money, and money's about to become scarce? ...

In my own spirit i keep hearing Holy Spirit saying that very soon is to be the onset of a balm type ministry of explanation and consolation in reaction to the severity of God's correcting hand to His house and subsequent repentance/revival, because so many saints in America will be somewhat dumbstruck by it all because they never saw it coming, they never thought in a million years such calamity could befall we who are rich and in need of nothing ... Then i hear this message about "a false Revival" in the midst of "true REVIVAL" and my first thoughts were, exasperated actually, "Lord this can't be true, bro Conlon must be mistaken"! ... My second thoughts were, "Lord if it is true when will it ever end, when will You just stop satan dead in his tracks period"? ... Of course i know the Biblical answer to the latter, but it kinda just let me know just how weary i've become of it always seeming satan's having the upper hand and/or always being allowed to throw yet another black-eye ... How long O'Lord before Your Body gets to send him into rope-a-dope, before You knock him out? ...

This is one reason i've appreciated this sermon so much, from the REVIVAL Conference ...

[b]The Danger Of Complacency[/b] by Don Currin by Revival Conference 2007
http://www.pardoned.net/sermonindex/SID16260.mp3

The last word bro Currin spoke about is being careful not to go off into apostasy because of not seeing God "work" in the way we want to see him work really spoke to me ... i don't see renunciation of my faith anywhere in my future at all, but i know i've got to be careful of what can happen when i take my eyes off Him and begin reacting and/or focusing on the circumstances - i begin to sink ... That's why i know it's so important to keep my eyes on Him ... God help me in light of bro Currin's sermon not to become complacent, and in light of bro Conlon's sermon God help us all not to be just plain whatever we'd have to be to get completely duped yet again! ---


T
TonyS

The issue is the attitude with which the Bride is being handled. you will also notice that Jesus dealt with the churches by first showing them what they were doing right

And I am not even certain what exactly I mean by this except to say I watched on youtube as someone a few weeks ago here provided a link to what was termed open-air preaching and what strongly came to mind was “[u]Provoking Sinners[/u]”. I also had a similar situation a few years ago as my wife and I were in San Antonio Texas and we stopped to listen to a street preacher and my wife’s comment was; to her it seemed the individual was only “yelling at people”.

Of course the passage comes to mind concerning parents not provoking their children to wrath, how or if this can be used to relate to the above I am not sure?

Persecution, being asked not to come back certainly can be self-inflicted no doubt.

*I’m sorry, I should have also said this is not an indictment of any particular group or person. This observation I presume could have easily been made in a traditional setting as well.

H
hmmhmm


Rahman wrote:


This is one reason i've appreciated this sermon so much, from the REVIVAL Conference ...

[b]The Danger Of Complacency[/b] by Don Currin by Revival Conference 2007
http://www.pardoned.net/sermonindex/SID16260.mp3

The last word bro Currin spoke about is being careful not to go off into apostasy because of not seeing God "work" in the way we want to see him work really spoke to me ... i don't see renunciation of my faith anywhere in my future at all, but i know i've got to be careful of what can happen when i take my eyes off Him and begin reacting and/or focusing on the circumstances - i begin to sink ... That's why i know it's so important to keep my eyes on Him ... God help me in light of bro Currin's sermon not to become complacent, and in light of bro Conlon's sermon God help us all not to be just plain whatever we'd have to be to get completely duped yet again! ---


I was also very effected by this sermon....

C
coffee

These are also "Must Listen To Messages" ...

I Pray that we will never slay the Righteous, Nor justify the wicked....


Ministers of Laciviousness by Carter Conlon

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2251&commentView=itemComments

Run For Your Life by Carter Conlon

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1724&commentView=itemComments

Let Me Not See My Wretchedness by Carter Conlon by Revival Conference 2007


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dohzman

John the baptist said bring forth FRUITS meet for repentance.
Legalism is that doctrine that says touch not eat not etc..., lets say I was to stand and rail against watching TV and call everyone who watched TV a filthy sinner, that's legalism, that's what we call clothes line preaching. If it's not clearly spelled out in scripture, like say adultry, than it's best to just teach the principles found in scripture like ....say.... you become what you behold, and allow for the Holy Spirit to bring conviction. Rember that Jesus spoke only what he recieved and in the backgroud of His ministry was the Holy Spirit at work, always drawing people to Jesus, the same was true with john the baptist and the prophets.
Holiness is not an outward show of piety, however there will eventually be an outward show in modesty and gentleness, joy, etc...the Fruit of the Spirit. We are only changed as we see Jesus, from glory to glory.


Now the message on the streets to the unsaved will probably be somewhat different than that which is delivered to the church anyway. So all you street preachers can sigh a sigh of relief, just make sure you're in the Holy Spirit when you speak. Does that help anyone???

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dohzman

also had a similar feeling a few years ago as my wife and I were in San Antonio Texas and we stopped to listen to a street preacher and my wife’s comment was; to her it seemed the individual was only “yelling at people”.


I think your right here brother. Much of what we see in street preaching is just shouting. I have always held to the view that its through the preaching of the Word of God that men are saved. The street preacher should have a carefully layed out sermon that they are going to agrue before the courts of mens reason and preach it in such a way that it reaches down to the very core of thier being(the preachers being). Afterwards the street praecher should know pretty much what they spoke and having an outline will help in that effort.

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He said something like ... 'There was a sense that if they could get to higher ground, they would be safe'... but people were 'discouraged' because of the way they had been preached to. :-o

Makes me wonder if we can so discourage someone they give up. :-o I know I am always thankful for those who have always encouraged me like Josh Parsley and a few others on OAO as far as evangelism ect..

Times Square Church has been a great encouragement to me. When you experiece that kind of love from others it makes you want to give more of yourself. :-)

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Christisking

One important aspect of Mr. Colon's message was "how will we treat those who are coming out of deception and coming back home to Jesus as a bride searching for her Bridegroom?" Now must of here have heard our dear brother David Wilkerson scream at the top of his lungs against the prosperity gospel in the hashes of terms and delivery in his sermon "Another Gospel" and Mr. Conlon himself has given similar heart felt cries against the prosperity gospel and the theology of Babylon - but i don't think that is what hew talking about - how are we going to treat those who come out of such teaching and are searching for there way back home. I personally have seen people who are searching for a way out of lukewarm Laodieca, false prophetic movements and prosperity teachings have stone thrown at them for there involvement in those false movement - and even worse yet I have also seen such wandering sheep snatched up and then brought under legalism, condemnation and judgementalism and impossible standards all under the guise of holiness. These are things I think brother Conlon was referring to and I agree 100%

Hopefully those that heard will realize that it was not the genre of the message, but the spirit behind it.

I agree with Robert - I have heard many messages and prophetic warnings and much of it has been done in the Spirit of frustration and anger - not in the Spirit of love. I believe if it is done in the Spirit of love the love of God will come across loud and clear in the message. As of lately the Lord has given me some pretty hard prophetic warnings and clear trumpet calls to preach on the streets - about hell and the eternal judgment of God. But I preach such message in the Spirit of love and concern and even though they may be harsh and hard to hear the Spirit bears witness in power - men and women weep under conviction and come to repentance. Bottom line - like Robert has been saying - it is the Spirit behind what is preached not necessarily what is preached - I can go into the streets and preach about hell and the judgment of God in anger and be a clanging cymbal and do more damage them good. MANY street preachers are like this. But I can preach the same message out of love and concern for the souls of men and out of tears and weeping for the eternity of souls and the Glory of God and see the Spirit bear witness and men come to repentance.

I preached last weekend down in Skid Row Los Angeles about the California wildfires and the coming eternal fire and judgment of God upon sin. You look at some the clips of the video - I hope you can see that it is not angry but birth in a Spirit of love and concern - it's only 10 min - so make sure you watch till the end.

California Wildfires Video
http://www.obeyjesus.net/content/view/308/37/


God bless,

Patrick

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(on p4) jimdied2sin wrote

or you may have misunderstood.
I believe I did. My apologies to you.

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sermonindex

OK... I got the message now. Thanks Christisking for reminding me of a certain group that does being men under false holiness and legalism...

I also have seen the first victim of "I dont like the truths that man preaches so I am going to call him a angry watchman".

So anyway, thanks everyone... beware of angry watchmen (and beware of labeling Gods true prophets as angry watchmen).

In Christs love - Jim

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RobertW

Hi Patrick,

I can go into the streets and preach about hell and the judgment of God in anger and be a clanging cymbal and do more damage them good.

I thank God that you guys go down to minister to the homeless and [i]I also[/i] have heard you minister in person. Do you think that a way of knowing whetehr or not our spirit is right is by how [u]we[/u] respond when the people actually repent or reject the message? I recall that Steven prayed the Lord not to lay it to their charge when they stoned him and Jesus wept when the people rejected Him. Could it be that if a person gets angry that they are feeling personal rejection and failure as opposed to the people actually rejecting God?

And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: [u]for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me,[/u] that I should not reign over them. (I Samual 8:7)

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nicetiga

Did you listen to the message that was preached the same day by William Carrol. Very good also.
(Many people don't understand, but Times Square Church has 3 services on Sunday.)

it is called "Show me your glory"

http://www.tscnyc.org/sermons.php?hl=890


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InTheLight

I can see that this message is causing many to take heed as to the spirit with which we take up the word of God into our mouths. This is very good. I tremble to think that I might offend even "the least of these My brethren." There is abundant grace which will enable us to abound in love. Let's approach the Throne to receive this grace and speak encouragement to our neighbors to receive that same grace.

I was also considering that if there will be false revival then there will also be true revival. Take courage and pray!

In Christ,

Ron

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I thank God all the more for sermon index and the saints on this board.I thank God for Times Square Church. I thank God he speaks through men and that He is so merciful and loving to reach out to us in our sin and ignorance.Thank you Jesus.

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InTheLight said

I was also considering that if there will be false revival then there will also be true revival. Take courage and pray!
Hasn't the false revival already begun, with much confusing similarity of terminology coming from the Roman church?

And hasn't there [i]always[/i] been a type of legalism which, cameleon-like, changes its stripes to blend in with the latest spiritual-sounding vogue, regardless of the lack of its own edible fruit?

These are varieties of 'nothing new under the sun'.


Our sister Spitfire said something which arrested me, today... that people who find themselves in deception, started off by '[i]wanting[/i] to be deceived'.

On thinking about it, I saw that that's true... people want to keep sinning so they kid themselves it's alright with God, then sin some more, until eventually they [i]believe[/i] their behaviour is [u]all[/u] right with God. It's in Romans 1... choosing to deceive their own minds with regard to truth, until God takes over and sends strong delusion.

(But there is a way back, praise God, or I for one would not be here!)

I also want to mention there is significance symbolically, to 'the veil', which Carter Conlon did not express fully, and for those who've had their veil taken away, there is deep desolation.

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roadsign

But I…

Patrick, One’s self-perception can depend a lot on what measuring rod he stands beside. Why not stand beside a TRUE spiritual giant - maybe read the journal of Jonathan Edwards or the biogrophy of Praying Hyde.

Diane

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He said the same ones that brought them into this movement would be the ones rebuking them when they come out.

If you have religion but not Jesus you WILL fall into deception. This would include most all churches today who have not preached a pure gosple, they could possibly be the same ones who led them into this movement to begin with.

You can also lead people by misleading them or giving them a false sense of security.

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glorytoglory said

You can also lead people by misleading them or giving them a false sense of security.
In forensic terms, this is known as 'misinformation', and the responsibility lies on the misinformer first.

I'm getting the feeling I need to listen to the message, again.

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ChrisJD

Brothers and sisters,


I'm somewhat troubled by this topic.


As I've been looking through this thread and meditating on this, the thought occurs to me that preaching is a Heavenly Calling.


Man is speaking on behalf of God. What he says relfects upon the court of Heaven.


What we say about it does also.

It is holy.


Is this the sort of thing we ought to put out in public view? If so, how carefull should we be?

Other preachers or messages aside, how does the court of Heaven view this discussion?


Am reminded of these words from the Preacher:

"Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few."

-Ecclesiastes 5:2(KJV)


As to godly preaching, the Apostle writes:


"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

- 1Peter 4:11(KJV)


Chris

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Christisking

Roadsign -

I don't stand next angry watchmen and then judge myself against what they preach - nor do I try to imitate or emulate other men of the faith like Edwards, Hyde, Whitefield, Wesley etc. - although I am quite well read and familiar with there works - I try to emulate Christ and His love and compassion for soul birth and maintained not by my own strength but through the power of the Holy Spirit. We can get off kilter when we take our focus off of Christ and start measuring ourself against other men. Why not stand beside Jesus? I preach what the Lord tells me to preach in the grace He has given me to preach it. The bottom line is we can not preach out of anger and frustration but out of love and concern for soul and the glory of God.


Patrick
www.revialarmy.com

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RobertW

Is this the sort of thing we ought to put out in public view? If so, how carefull should we be?

This is a good point, I think. One of the great concerns any time we discuss preaching, delivery methods, and our own hearts in more public setting we must needs be careful. I certainly hope that everyone (inclusing myself) is being sensitive to the Holy Spirit in all of our conversations here on SI.

On a different thread I mentioned that there are impressionable minds that listen in to our conversations. It is a strange thing to me that folk have no problem casting off bygone generations understandings of the scriptures and alligning themselves with even heretical views of Christ, the Cross, salvation, etc.

It is because of this that we must be sober, vigilant, moderate, but yet very firm and consistent in heading off these things. So long as questionable 'fire' is being brought into the public square we must needs be watchful and speak as the Oracle of God in dealing with these things.

If God is being misrepresented in the pubic square of ideas, I believe we have an obligation to prayerfully and boldly challenge that misrepresentation. With an eye on the very things that ChrisJD brought up, certainly. If we sanctify the Lord always in our hearts we have taken the first step in being ready to give a reason if any man asketh us a reason of the the hope that lies within us with meekness and reverence.

The reality is, we are often enguaged here in what Paul faced at Galatia. that is teh sharpest word you will read in the New Testament. It spoke of folk being 'cut-off' that trouble the Saints. At the end he says, "YOU SEE WITH WHAT LARGE LETTERS I HAVE WRITTEN TO YOU WITH MINE OWN HAND." I use caps here, because Paul wrote Galatians with his own hand and he was probably half blind. It was written entirely with his own hand and it was proabably a fearsome sight to those that opened it. All his other letters were written by a helper with a salutation at the beginning and end.

We stand in defense of the Gospel every hour. Many did 'run well' but they have been 'hindered' that they should not obey the truth. I suppose to some degree, I personally feel a Galatian type responsibility and mode in dealing with many ideas that would seek to exchange the grace of God for another Gospel and then preach it with anger as a counterfeit to anointing. Paul dealt handily with these things and the record of it is in most homes in America. That is a very public dealing. When falsehood goes public, as reluctant and cautious as we must be- we must nonetheless meet them where we find them.

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BVO

This thread has been on my mind weighing heavily because it is kind of personal. We came out of the local "church" because of the blatant sin that was being excused and tolerated. Because we wouldn't tolerate it we were being legalistic. David Bercot has a must listen tape called Legalism vs. Obedience(not available as an MP3 download as far as I know) and as an attorney he puts it in a clear and understandable way. On the subject of Angry Watchmen, my concern is that someone sees a group like Charity Christian Fellowship receiving people in from all sorts of belief systems from Catholicism to Amish and proclaiming God's word for God's remnant. I have heard some pretty nasty comments about them being so legalistic. I want to make sure we don't react to someone preaching obedience to God's commands which include touching not the unclean thing. On the other hand I have seen people following Charity and became very legalistic. They loved what Charity preached but lost the spirit of mercy and compassion and preached death. My wife nearly spiritually "died" because of such work. We need to be so careful. I have nothing but love and compassion for those that wake up, but we need to preach to turn completely from their old ways and not just add some new teaching to them and get another new Blend. People do hear what they want to hear and the preaching of the wide road is the reason we have what we have. Amen to keeping our eyes on Jesus and be willing to be sold out to Him and Him alone.

With Love and Thanksgiving Barry

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philologos

HI, I'm slowly getting back into sync over here. This is the first thread I have dipped into from the Conference. Carter Conlon's word from God challenged and thrilled me. I was greatly blessed to witness the obvious integrity of this servant of God and thrilled that a man of his stature in the 'Christian world' is saying these things so plainly.

Most of the conference were out at the front after this message but the long term effects will be greater if we receive it 'as from the Lord'.

Wherever I go, I shall recommend that the saints 'have an ear' to this word.

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ChrisJD wrote:
Brothers and sisters,


I'm somewhat troubled by this topic.


As I've been looking through this thread and meditating on this, the thought occurs to me that preaching is a Heavenly Calling.


Man is speaking on behalf of God. What he says relfects upon the court of Heaven.


What we say about it does also.

It is holy.


Is this the sort of thing we ought to put out in public view? If so, how carefull should we be?

Other preachers or messages aside, how does the court of Heaven view this discussion?


Am reminded of these words from the Preacher:

"Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few."

-Ecclesiastes 5:2(KJV)


As to godly preaching, the Apostle writes:


"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

- 1Peter 4:11(KJV)


Chris

Im really blessed at how sensitive the saints try to be here. I really don't have a problem discussing it as long as it doesn't get out of hand. Lord knows we are capable of that :-( .

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roadsign

I listened to Conlon’s sermon yesterday and was deeply stirred. Those fires he saw in his dream were incredibly real to me. Oh, how easily the flickering candle flame can get out of control, and soon the whole house burns down. The chastisement: “Why didn’t you do something sooner!” is still ringing my ears. Indeed, we need to learn to quickly recognize the tiny innocuous flames. In fact, we tend to overlook these sins of “our own kind” – and unashamedly permit this lashing out at those sinners “out there” or the hellish imprisonment to works doctrine. Sadly, what has felt righteous for so long escapes the radar of our conscience. And we feel no conviction. It is WE who need revival!

I wish Conlon had used the terms “bitter watchman” instead of “angry watchmen”. Here’s why: In some people’s understanding, anger is not much more than outward expression – ex: loud, shouting, cuss words, scolding, etc. True, anger often accompanies these behaviors, but anger can also hide behind polite words and smiles. It is a hidden ball of fire lurking in the heart. It can be masked by all kinds of behaviors and manifestations – addiction, emotional disorders, self-abuse, religiosity, claim to a special calling, etc etc. The heart is hardened.

Bitterness results when the sun goes down on anger and the anger is not acknowledged. The next day you don’t feel angry any more. It's buried. Since angry expressions are considered a sin in the church ( we don't teach on how to manage anger) it all the more easily gets suppressed - and remains unconfessed.

When people are hurt by the church they need to acknowledge their anger and enter into a time of healing– with the help of the Lord and support of a caring Christian family. They need to learn to forgive those who wounded them, and receive forgiveness from the Lord. This takes time!!

Time and time again I have seen angry, hurt people in the church run away from the source of their wounding, only to turn around and lash back at those with whom they once enjoyed fellowship.

Bitter watchmen, I suspect, are using their “mission” as a launch pad for venting their suppressed rage against past hurts.

The inner fireball of bitterness is constantly searching for fuel to feed its insatiable hunger to consume: revenge. And the most vulnerable victims are those who are yet unhealed, who are already laden with guilt, rejection, and besetting sins, etc - who most need the tender protection and healing environment of God’s people.

I believe that Conlon's message is a word from the Lord for us here on SI. Let’s admit, the majority of us have been wounded by the church. That’s why we are here. We don’t want the sins of the church to continue. But this also is why we are very vulnerable to becoming accomplices for the enemy, and join the ranks of his bitter watchmen.

SI is not likely in danger of slipping into philosophical relativism. However, over time our longing for better behavior in our society and church can subtly degenerate into a pursuit after revival of works fueled by the fire of bitterness.

May God reveal any roots of bitterness and purify our hearts with his blood!

Diane


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sermonindex

I really feel like this needs to be said, Lord help me.

Not too long ago a wonderful christian man named Ray Comfort started an evangelism ministry called "The Way of The Master". I have been blessed by this ministry as many have. I have always had a heart for evangelism. Ray Comfort has helped many to reach the lost by way of giving the ten commandments, convicting them of thier sin and than preaching the message of salvation.David Wilkerson too has been blessed by his ministry.

The law as the bible says is what brings us conviction because without the law we would not have known sin. I cannot speak for Ray Comfort but I do know he has been turned off by some who let's just say are not very Christ like in thier approach of preaching the law with very little if no grace.

The list of "THINGS" these unsaved or backslidden people have to do just keeps getting longer. There has been alot of vulgarity out of some of these preachers mouths. I don't want to get into too much detail but you can go to youtube anytime and see for yourself.

Im not saying this is what Carter Conlon was speaking of but it is something that needs to be brought to attention. I think of my unsaved loved ones and what would they think if they were to hear this.


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Rahman

--- [color=FF0000]Maybe i didn't here bro. Conlon right but didn't he say in his message that these "angry watchmen" are from the same guys of the now prosperity gospel who'll flip mode and become the purveyors of a new and legalistic "false revival"?[/color] ...

Did i hear it wrong because from what i got he said that apparently "something" would occur that will cause many saints who are caught up in all types of "other gospels" to turn away from them in repentance and toward 'true reveival" but many will be re-duped into a "false revival" of legalism by many of the once "prosperity preachers" ... Whew! ...

[color=FF0000]That's why i asked before, "What will be their motivation since clearly the prosperity guys like money, and money's about to become scarce? [/color]... Could it be that misleading folk is their livelihood and since the prosperity fiasco would be shattered, they'd somehow quickly regroup into "angry watchman" leadership roles just to stay employed? ... i'm sure it could happen, because many people/saints who don't know better can be easily misled of men, but i wonder to God how someone who has been duped once by a proved charlatan, could turn right around and be duped by the same charlatan in another guise - AGAIN? ...

Also someone called this serman a prophetic warning ... In both Bro Wilkerson's and Conlon's cases i don't think they'd agree to this terminology since they are both quick to point out that they're not prophets, perhaps tho it's a word from God in prophesying (as in the gift and not the calling) ... Whatever it is [color=FF0000]i still find the sermon disturbing, irratating, and troubling not that it can't be authentically from God but again because it's just lets me know just how weary i've become of it always seeming satan's having the upper hand and/or always being allowed to throw yet another black-eye ... It makes me cry out, "How long O'Lord before Your Body gets to send the devil into rope-a-dope, before You knock him out? ... It's like it seems we can't get into the ring of the major professional bout, because we can't even seem to get out of training camp[/color] ...

God help me! ... God help us! :-? ---


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MarkOne

It is intriguing, even strange, to see how the one preaching repentance in modern settings, preaching out of the purest motives under the covering of the Holy Spirit, is again and again made the perpetrator – the one in need of repentance, the one in need of asking the sinner for forgiveness for daring words touching an already pressured conscience.

Who do we defend? Do we defend the right of our dear Lord and Saviour to bring the end time church back to His order and intentions? Or, do we defend our right to protect what we think is our right to create and moderate statutes for a new kind of Church which focuses on user-friendliness and calls that which is secular to be equal to that which is holy?

None of us have reached the level of “Show me my wretchedness.”
None of us have reached an “I am undone.”
None of us see as the Lord sees.
Far too much of “Spare me, spare this, spare these. . .”
Far too many cry “I have rights, I am able to judge properly- better than both God and men.”

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Isaiah 59:4-6
4None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

5They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

6Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

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roadsign

And hasn't there always been a type of legalism

It has been said that the legalist is the guy on your right.

Diane

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You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!

I love the part in the Song of Solomon where He says to look into His eyes and she says I can't I'm not worthy. But we can because He is worthy and He is our righteousness.The way we see ourselves is not the way that He sees us. But how does He see us? That is the question that you have to ask God for yourself.You yourself have look into His eyes.

The reason I believe these watchman are angry is because the gosple they preach is not working for them.


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philologos

None of us have reached the level of “Show me my wretchedness.”
None of us have reached an “I am undone.”

This generalisation is too broad. No man can say this of another but only of himself. Speaking personally of God's gracious dealings... he showed me these things over 40 years ago and I have never recovered, not do I expect to.

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roaringlamb

Perhaps the greatest thing any of us can do is to put Christ in front of the hearers. That's it really, He saves people, He convicts people.

Of course this is an offence to US as we want to be the ones who think we have done something. I have found(though I still kick at times) that God hides fruit from us because we would get puffed up, and so that He alone receives the glory. It is similar to what Paul wrote to the Corinthian fellowship, "I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase."

There may be seasons where we are allowed to see fruit, but this is to test our hearts to see who receives the glory.

So now how does one put Christ in front of someone? It all depends, and the Spirit must be our guide.

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glorytoglory said

The law as the bible says is what brings us conviction because without the law we would not have known sin.
Without the law we would not have known sin, but we can now factor into the equation Jesus' own words about the work the Spirit must do.

Remember there was no escape from sin under the Law. Blood covered sin but did not cleanse it (Heb 10), and forgiveness was impossible. The gulf between the provision of the Old Covenant and the New, is enormous, in this respect (if one cares to view the changes as spiritually dynamic).

John 16
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you...

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [i]that[/i] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [i]it[/i] unto you.


2 Peter 1
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
3 as His divine power has given to us all things that [i]pertain[/i] to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, [i]having escaped[/i] the corruption [i]that is[/i] in the world through lust.

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dorcas wrote:

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I love how the holy spirit is called the Comforter.

One thing I remember Watchman Nee always taught is that it's revelation that changes us. As in the Song of Solomon we need to keep looking into His eyes daily. It's looking into his eyes and the revelation that changes us.

It just occured to me if we can't look into His eyes we can't move forward.He said in his dream that they could not form a line to even get to higher ground and some gave up and the house burned down.


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glorytoglory said

It just occured to me if we can't look into His eyes we can't move forward.He said in his dream that they could not form a line to even get to higher ground and some gave up and the house burned down.
roaringlamb said
Perhaps the greatest thing any of us can do is to put Christ in front of the hearers. That's it really, He saves people, He convicts people.
Please, everyone reading, I want to draw your attention to a heart matter.

People listening to the word of God (I don't mean the Bible only, but also a Holy Spirit-inspired word from God), have a way of recognising it as being from God, or at least, [i]maybe[/i] from God.


People who are discouraged, though, because they have sat under false teaching, are worn out with trying to make a lie work for them. They have grown to distrust the men they listened to.

These false shepherds trained them to look away from Christ Himself, and offered alternatives to hearing His voice - the voice of the Shepherd.

Now, you preachers have a very delicate task in speaking such a word in love, that these exhausted, pulverised souls, some of whom are suffering from having beaten themselves up for years over not being able to match up to the gospel they've sat under, might be comforted.


One of the most transforming words I ever heard when I was in this stage\\state, was preached from Isaiah 40: 1 and 2, ending with 'pardoned'. But it was the past tense - that her warfare is accomplish[b]ed[/b] which brought me rest and hope, and the hope of not having to [i]try[/i] any more.


Also, I heard large chunks of scripture read by men of spiritual integrity at Sunday church, and I learned to trust their exposition of the pure word, which did not drift off into fantasy about what might happen if we had revival, or overtly focus on themselves, their exploits, and their exaggerated revelations.


This may all sound strong - like roadsign's post on the previous page -- but I cannot overstate how long it takes to get over false doctrine.

It is not just the false doctrine, but the time one has given to believing it, the cringing things one did when one was following it, the money one has given away more likely into someone else's pocket than to the Lord's work, the tears one has cried, the indignities one has been expected to suffer in the name of God.... and on and on. Really, it's a kind of persecution, and it's definitely spiritual abuse.


These people are very much in need of a word which will encourage them to believe they are not completely lost. That in God's economy nothing is wasted. There is something good which remains, even if it is a weak fragment of what they once had.


Brethren and sisters, you need to strengthen what remains with your preaching, teaching, example and kindnesses, and be as patient as you can.


Also, they need permission to be weak and in need of carrying, with no criticism for it, no moaning about it and no pressure to jump through new spiritual\\practical hoops.


Please respect their sense of disorientation, and don't misinterpret that they are in wilful sin. Remember, some have been encouraged to live in sin and told they are okay while they do.

Big lies, which break hearts and minds.


There will be a lot of unpacking to do - listening and reassuring - and [i]general acceptance[/i] to minister, where people have been made to feel like outcasts for trying to resist the errors.


May the Lord give you all wisdom and fresh bread for these souls.

C
Compton

None of us have reached the level of “Show me my wretchedness.”
None of us have reached an “I am undone".

This generalisation is too broad. No man can say this of another but only of himself. Speaking personally of God's gracious dealings... he showed me these things over 40 years ago and I have never recovered, not do I expect to.

We could go so far as to say that if none of us have ever come to the end of ourselves and cried out "I am undone", then none of us has salvation, or the life of Jesus...none of us have put on the New Man. Paul didn't say that he counted all of his prior life as dung for dramatic effect...he really did have no further confidence in himself, nor those religous things that other's might consider his greatest achievements. This is one sign of a broken man...his very life story is broken in half; he has forever been severed from his former lifeline...that life of the old man which existed prior to knowing Jesus is cut loose like dead driftwood. Only such poor in spirit can put on Christ. Only those who feel undone are yearning to clothe themselves in the new man...and only the new man abides daily in Jesus. Therefore it should never enter our imagination that there can be such a thing as a Christian who remains unbroken, his old man still in tow.

Yes, to God's glory, there are some who have been broken indeed! So we must be careful about making broad statements that could give even these brokenhearted a sense of still being trapped in that same hopeless sinful stasis they cried out to God from. When we make frustrated pronouncements on everyone without qualifications, we could be entering the arena of condemnation.

Let's lovingly gaurd our hearts against meditating and ministering from our own frustration. Now the bacterialization of so many churches with pernicious seeker-sensitive old-man pampering may give us a sense that the Gospel has been lost in America...but there are still truly broken men and women who been crucified and ressurected in Christ and now are alive to God...thanking Him daily for saving such a 'wretch like me."

Blessings,

MC

I
intrcssr83

Does everyone remember the parachute analogy Ray Comfort uses in "Hell's Best Kept Secret"?

Two men are seated in a plane. The first is given a parachute and told to put is on as it would improve his
flight. He’s a little skeptical at first because he can’t see how wearing a parachute in a plane could possibly improve
the flight. After a time he decides to experiment and see if the claim is true. As he puts it on he notices the weight of
it upon his shoulders and he finds that he has difficulty in sitting upright. However, he consoles himself with the fact
that he was told the parachute would improve the flight. So, he decides to give the thing a little time. As he waits he
notices that some of the other passengers are laughing at him, because he’s wearing a parachute in a plane. He
begins to feel somewhat humiliated. As they begin to point and laugh at him and he can stand it no longer, he slinks
in his seat, unstraps the parachute, and throws it to the floor. Disillusionment and bitterness fill his heart, because,
as far as he was concerned, he was told an outright lie.

The second man is given a parachute, but listen to what he’s told. He’s told to put it on because at any
moment he’d be jumping 25,000 feet out of the plane. He gratefully puts the parachute on; he doesn’t notice the
weight of it upon his shoulders, nor that he can’t sit upright. His mind is consumed with the thought of what would
happen to him if he jumped without that parachute.

Let’s analyze the motive and the result of each passenger’s experience. The first man’s motive for putting
the parachute on was solely to improve his flight. The result of his experience was that he was humiliated by the
passengers; he was disillusioned and somewhat embittered against those who gave him the parachute. As far as
he’s concerned it’ll be a long time before anyone gets one of those things on his back again. The second man put
the parachute on solely to escape the jump to come, and because of his knowledge of what would happen to him
without it, he has a deep-rooted joy and peace in his heart knowing that he’s saved from sure death. This
knowledge gives him the ability to withstand the mockery of the other passengers. His attitude towards those who
gave him the parachute is one of heart-felt gratitude.

Now listen to what the modern gospel says. It says, “Put on the Lord Jesus Christ. He’ll give you love, joy, peace, fulfillment, and lasting happiness.” In other words, “Jesus will improve your flight.” So the sinner responds, and in an experimental fashion, puts on the Savior to see if the claims are true. And what does he get? The promised temptation, tribulation, and persecution. The other passengers mock him. So what does he do? He takes
off the Lord Jesus Christ, he’s offended for the word’s sake (Mark 4:17), he’s disillusioned and somewhat embittered, and quite rightly so. He was promised peace, joy, love, fulfillment, and lasting happiness, and all he got were trials and humiliation. His bitterness is directed toward those who gave him the so-called “good news”. His latter end becomes worse than the first: another inoculated and bitter backslider.

R
roaringlamb

Please, everyone reading, I want to draw your attention to a heart matter.

Sister, I do not understand if you are agreeing with what I posted, or not :-(

S
sermonindex


roaringlamb said

Sister, I do not understand if you are agreeing with what I posted, or not
I am agreeing, on the assumption that you see the gentle, compassionate, patient Saviour and Healer, as the answer to these dear ones woes, and you would not lay into their woundedness with cries of 'repent!'

Let me say I'm amazed at the discussion which has flowed from this sermon - which was about so much more than 'angry watchmen'.

And I [u]am[/u] surprised that not one preacher has owned up to the vaguest possibility their style may have been - or should become - tempered by Carter's entreaties.

B
broclint


Jeremiah 23:28 - 32 (NKJV) 28 “The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?” says the LORD. 29 “Is not My word like a fire?” says the LORD, “And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? 30“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who steal My words every one from his neighbor. 31Behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who use their tongues and say, ‘He says.’ 32Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” says the LORD, “and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,” says the LORD.

Brothers and sisters, please bear with me in this careful introduction. I like many of you attended the Revival Conference with members of my family that included a son and two daughters, a son-in-law, and a niece, and the latest edition to the family, of 1 year and 3 months who spent more time than mom and dad wanted him to, out in the foyer. I was impressed with the humility and sincerity of the speakers and the moderators. I rejoiced in the hungry and thirsty expressions of repentance by those attending. As one of the post by one of the moderators crsschk stated, I basked in the unity of believers sitting at the feet of Jesus Christ from all the different doctrinal backgrounds and ethnic and cultural backgrounds as well. And although I have never posted on SI, I have been reading from and downloading from this site now for over 2 years. I have read many of the threads on various subjects. I have been in ministry for a number of years now and in a denomination that has long ago left me and my church among others in our denomination. What was birthed in a sincere desire to return to Biblical holiness, and let the New Testament be the only rule for government and discipline brought about a very powerful ingathering of souls for several decades, but wolves entered among the sheep, heresies crept in, emphasis upon gifts (just as dear Keith Daniel has often preached as well as the late dear Leonard Ravenhill also) led to the loss of the fruits of the Spirit, and the power with God and man fell by the wayside. There were no doubt many things that were promised to God in covenant that were not necessary, but then it was not as much the “things” as the love for Christ that prompted such covenants that kept the church for a good while victorious, just as those covenants made by Israel.

Along the way there has been great prophetic preaching, and no doubt God has given revelations and insights to men. Unfortunately, along with those revelations there have been many spurious “insights”,”revelations”, and “prophetic words”. The “prosperity” gospel is just one of many. On the other hand, there does not have to be a revelation to thoroughly refute that and many other spurious and heretical doctrines, but the simple, clearly, and contextually preached Word of God.

The refreshing thing in the Revival Conference was the fact that even though there were fresh insights from the Word of God, almost every one of the speakers spoke with very a very clear exposition of the Word of God. Their messages from the Word of God served to us what was clearly implied in the very texts they chose to exposit. And there is no doubt that their messages hit the target.

And there is no doubt that the last night of the conference, Brother Keith Daniel, as he so often does, used almost nothing but the Word of God, making his exposition from the Word of God, by the Word of God, the most offensive to some who prefer more milk and less meat, and smooth things to clearly enunciating the sins of this hour.

That brings me around to the caution that I felt compelled to add to this thread that has been expressed by Jim, among others. Our Brother Conlin expressed his desire that this message be disseminated quickly and widely among the churches, “to the returning Bride”, “God still loves you” among the rest. He stated that it was while he was still in Ohio that his concern came to him about the “angry watchmen” which is not a phrase I find anywhere in the scriptures. My dear brothers and sisters, an exposition from the Song of Solomon with very few supporting scriptures and very little supporting evidence other than a dream, regardless of how much we may respect the integrity and sincerity and love for the body of Christ, right on the heels of a move of God and the overwhelmingly unified consensus among the other speakers at the Conference calling for brokenness and repentance and contrition, with an abundance of scriptural support for such a call, I find somewhat disturbing. And what I also found disturbing was the fact that many of those who have written in this thread said that they had to hear the message again to see if they understood exactly what he was saying.
1 Corinthians 14:8 (NKJV) 8For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
The third thing I found very disturbing about this message is the fact that a general accusation of the sort made in this message, leaves a whole host of good men of God under the smear of such an accusation without any proof whatsoever of the charges against them.

The fourth thing that disturbs me is instead of bringing clarity and giving more impetus to the good work begun in Ohio, this message that he wants distributed far and wide could bring a cloud, and that cloud unfortunately, as was expressed by one of the writers on this forum, instead of inspiring more seeking of God and rejoicing in the fact that there has been raised up such a remnant to seek him, could dampen that fervor, like David’s crying over Absalom.

I agree that the Word clearly teaches,
James 1:20 (NKJV) 20for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.”

But that does not in any way diminish the need for deep soul searching repentance and healthy fear of the Judgment Seat of Christ by a church that has been fed too much already of “God loves you”, which is so abundantly obvious by the cross. To the sincerely hungry heart like that of the Syro-Phonecian woman “every bitter thing is sweet” (see Proverbs 27:7).

The fifth thing that disturbs me is the timing of this message, for all the reasons stated above.

I certainly have not added my voice to this forum to offend in any way and realize that I have never written before and may be misunderstood, but I felt compelled to express a sincere caution regarding dissemination of this message far and wide because there is very much area for confusion at a time when we need clarity.


S
sermonindex

Jeremiah 23:28 - 32 (NKJV) 28 “The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?” says the LORD. 29 “Is not My word like a fire?” says the LORD, “And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? 30“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who steal My words every one from his neighbor. 31Behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who use their tongues and say, ‘He says.’ 32Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” says the LORD, “and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,” says the LORD.

Brothers and sisters, please bear with me in this careful introduction. I like many of you attended the Revival Conference with members of my family that included a son and two daughters, a son-in-law, and a niece, and the latest edition to the family, of 1 year and 3 months who spent more time than mom and dad wanted him to, out in the foyer. I was impressed with the humility and sincerity of the speakers and the moderators. I rejoiced in the hungry and thirsty expressions of repentance by those attending. As one of the post by one of the moderators crsschk stated, I basked in the unity of believers sitting at the feet of Jesus Christ from all the different doctrinal backgrounds and ethnic and cultural backgrounds as well. And although I have never posted on SI, I have been reading from and downloading from this site now for over 2 years. I have read many of the threads on various subjects. I have been in ministry for a number of years now and in a denomination that has long ago left me and my church among others in our denomination. What was birthed in a sincere desire to return to Biblical holiness, and let the New Testament be the only rule for government and discipline brought about a very powerful ingathering of souls for several decades, but wolves entered among the sheep, heresies crept in, emphasis upon gifts (just as dear Keith Daniel has often preached as well as the late dear Leonard Ravenhill also) led to the loss of the fruits of the Spirit, and the power with God and man fell by the wayside. There were no doubt many things that were promised to God in covenant that were not necessary, but then it was not as much the “things” as the love for Christ that prompted such covenants that kept the church for a good while victorious, just as those covenants made by Israel.

Along the way there has been great prophetic preaching, and no doubt God has given revelations and insights to men. Unfortunately, along with those revelations there have been many spurious “insights”,”revelations”, and “prophetic words”. The “prosperity” gospel is just one of many. On the other hand, there does not have to be a revelation to thoroughly refute that and many other spurious and heretical doctrines, but the simple, clearly, and contextually preached Word of God.

The refreshing thing in the Revival Conference was the fact that even though there were fresh insights from the Word of God, almost every one of the speakers spoke with very a very clear exposition of the Word of God. Their messages from the Word of God served to us what was clearly implied in the very texts they chose to exposit. And there is no doubt that their messages hit the target.

And there is no doubt that the last night of the conference, Brother Keith Daniel, as he so often does, used almost nothing but the Word of God, making his exposition from the Word of God, by the Word of God, the most offensive to some who prefer more milk and less meat, and smooth things to clearly enunciating the sins of this hour.

That brings me around to the caution that I felt compelled to add to this thread that has been expressed by Jim, among others. Our Brother Conlin expressed his desire that this message be disseminated quickly and widely among the churches, “to the returning Bride”, “God still loves you” among the rest. He stated that it was while he was still in Ohio that his concern came to him about the “angry watchmen” which is not a phrase I find anywhere in the scriptures. My dear brothers and sisters, an exposition from the Song of Solomon with very few supporting scriptures and very little supporting evidence other than a dream, regardless of how much we may respect the integrity and sincerity and love for the body of Christ, right on the heels of a move of God and the overwhelmingly unified consensus among the other speakers at the Conference calling for brokenness and repentance and contrition, with an abundance of scriptural support for such a call, I find somewhat disturbing. And what I also found disturbing was the fact that many of those who have written in this thread said that they had to hear the message again to see if they understood exactly what he was saying.
1 Corinthians 14:8 (NKJV) 8For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
The third thing I found very disturbing about this message is the fact that a general accusation of the sort made in this message, leaves a whole host of good men of God under the smear of such an accusation without any proof whatsoever of the charges against them.

The fourth thing that disturbs me is instead of bringing clarity and giving more impetus to the good work begun in Ohio, this message that he wants distributed far and wide could bring a cloud, and that cloud unfortunately, as was expressed by one of the writers on this forum, instead of inspiring more seeking of God and rejoicing in the fact that there has been raised up such a remnant to seek him, could dampen that fervor, like David’s crying over Absalom.

I agree that the Word clearly teaches,
James 1:20 (NKJV) 20for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.”

But that does not in any way diminish the need for deep soul searching repentance and healthy fear of the Judgment Seat of Christ by a church that has been fed too much already of “God loves you”, which is so abundantly obvious by the cross. To the sincerely hungry heart like that of the Syro-Phonecian woman “every bitter thing is sweet” (see Proverbs 27:7).

The fifth thing that disturbs me is the timing of this message, for all the reasons stated above.

I certainly have not added my voice to this forum to offend in any way and realize that I have never written before and may be misunderstood, but I felt compelled to express a sincere caution regarding dissemination of this message far and wide because there is very much area for confusion at a time when we need clarity.

Brother,

thank you for sharing your post I do share "some" of your concerns and the only word I could think of after reading through this thread and listening to part of the message by pastor conlon was [b]confusion[/b]. I thank God for pastor conlon and his heart to share the heart of God and I believe it is a valid message from what I have heard. I know of "some" angry watchman and God has shown this error to me even in my heart at times over the last 2 years something I had to repent of. I do NOT think that carter conlon was blanket judging the revival conference by his message at all. But I do think the timing has brought confusion because of the lack of detailed clarity in the message because he directed it to "MOST" of the body of Christ.

I do agree that the revival conference showed a wonderful "unity" of the body of Christ from many different backgrounds and persuasions yet unifying under the truth of need need for genuine holiness and repentance and meeting with the living God. There is nothing wrong with that and I have grace for a modern day pentecostal church member, a formalistic presbyterian church member, or a mennonite traditional church member who has the spirit of Christ in them. The error is if we try and say "this form" needs to be given to the whole body of Christ or your not truly "holy" etc. Let us have grace and moderation for everyone, yet seek holiness and God with all our hearts in this "wicked and perverse" generation.

The church needs be warned yet there is definetly a fine line of warning the church of those that are "falling asleep" and "abusing the body" or making the weak ones stumble.

God ultimately is in charge of His church and is the head thereof. He will keep those who are His. Lord, Lord will be the cry of many. May we humbly seek those things above and call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

R
roaringlamb

I am agreeing, on the assumption that you see the gentle, compassionate, patient Saviour and Healer, as the answer to these dear ones woes, and you would not lay into their woundedness with cries of 'repent!'

Sister Dorcas,

I was one who used to thunder down upon God's people, and it has been a painful, and humbling realization as He has brought me away from that.

I now see that I wanted to produce something to prove I could do it. I wanted to be the next Finney who people would see and repent there on the spot(whether this truly happened is speculation as none of us were there). But I used the Law to beat people, and then worst of all I used Christ to beat people with.

I was full of zeal, but no compassion. I did not have wisdom to know when to apply the balm of the gospel to hurting admitting sinners, and when to magnify Sinai to the self-righteous.

Now only by the grace of God, has He taught me how He deals with people, and I learned as He dealt with me. He did not beat me when I deserved to be beaten, but rather He poured wine and oil into my wounds, and showed me His wounds for me. He did not thunder down "this do", but rather came to me, and said "this is my Son hear Him".

Oh it was then when I saw the difference between Law and Gospel, when I beheld my Saviour dying for me, and rising for me, and seating me in Heaven with Him, that I rejoiced, and regretted ever opening my mouth to speak such harsh words to God's lambs.

So, I know only to well that monster, and only by His grace, and the mercy He has shown me does that monster stay in the grave.

R
roadsign

Yesterday I listened to the sermon [url=http://www.tscnyc.org/sermons.php ]Show Me Your Glory [/url]by Wm Carrol of Times Square and was struck to the core of my soul! It is a fitting sequel to the “Beware of Angry Watchmen” sermon. Its impact on me cannot be described in words. I wept throughout it and felt God’s holy presence – his glory. I sensed the wooing of God’s love – so blazing, so intense - not only for me, but especially for those whom I am interceding for – those sheep who have wandered from the flock, damaged and caught by the wolves. Yes, yes, God is reaching out his hands to them, inviting them: “Come just as you are!” Some day these sheep will begin their journey back home, and I want to be ready to receive them and usher them into God’s presence - to offer his balm of forgiveness and grace, to help heal their fragile, wounded spirits.

Rev. Carrol extracts powerful lessons from the accounts of Moses’ anger. He highlights the close connection between anger, law, and legalism. When Moses was angry, he held the law over their heads, and tried to bring about justice in his own strength. It produced harm and death.

We cannot forget that Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.” Oh, why do we keep on trying to fix the “righteous” – that is, those who are not ready yet to return, who don’t see their need, whether they are living like pagans or are zealously religious. It doesn’t help to(simply) bash the law over their heads. They need Spirit conviction!

Oh, may we instead move where the Lord is working, and partner with him in the healing journey of the returning prodigals – those still smelly, dirty, but ready to begin God’s long process of cleansing, healing, and spiritual maturation. May we be watchful, ready and available BEFORE they encounter the “older brothers”!

If I had been at Times Square Church last Sunday, I would have eagerly accepted Conlon/Carrol’s invitation to the altar - not as a returning prodigal, but as one willing receive them. However, I wasn’t there. So, alas, the day for cyberspace altars has arrived, and so here I offer myself to the Lord. My name, Diane, means “in God’s Glory” and so it is most fitting that a sermon about God’s glory should stir me to crave his glory at work in lives.

May the SI forum become one huge altar to the glory of God - where the tired, lost, fed up, and fearful can come and find a safe environment – free from the risk of being snared by bitter watchman and “doctors” who dispense self-righteousness.

May those who have left SI because they have been wounded here or soured to this body be stirred to return and find restoration and true humility. Please, Lord, protect SI from the snares of the enemy.

Yesterday I put my feet where my heart was. I visited a nearby church and shared with the wearied and discouraged pastor my desire to pray in his church during the nights. This church has experienced a great falling away – many have strayed and been captured by wolves.

In his book “Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire”, Jim Cymbala reflects my heart with these words:

“I was tired of the escapist mentality I had witnessed since childhood – always glorifying what God did way back in some revival, or else passionately predicting “the coming great move of God just ahead.” pg 22

May SI be not merely a forum ABOUT revival, but may it BE a place of revival!

Diane


E
Eli_Barnabas

That is indeed scary. What we here at SI have been praying for could actually become the guise for Satan's final assault on the bride.

Dear saints,

I've been going through this thread and with all due respect, I feel statements like this are said in haste and without fully considering the situation.

I agree with what brother Conlon has said in his recent sermon, and how true it is that there are many in the borders of the Church today who are preaching a works based gospel based upon self-righteousness and, as it has been said, "man generated repentance". I personally know of certain individuals who promote such a perverse message; [i]but I would never say this is what I heard at the Revival Conference.[/i] I do not believe we can accuse Revival Conference, or even Sermonindex, of promoting such things. Holiness? Yes: there is true holiness, and we need the fruit of such holiness. This is not salvation by works but works by salvation. Let's not throw away the real thing in an attempt to remove the false.

I remember a couple months ago reading a small booklet in Utah entitled "God's Love: Better Than Unconditional". The message of the book was this:

There are usually only two options people consider when thinking of the love of God:

1. Conditional Love - you must do something to earn God's love
2. Unconditional Love - God loves you just as you are

But, the author contests, neither of these are the true love of God in Christ as presented in the Bible. There is a third option which is usually overlooked. The author calls it:

3. God's Love: Better than Unconditional - this is the true love of God that does not [b]just[/b] love you as you are, for that only means God accepts you as a sinner and is content to leave you like that. God's love is so great that He takes you in as a sinner but His love is not content to leave you like that. It's the love of God in Christ that justifies the ungodly and then sanctifies them by His grace.

I think this is the true way of holiness that the Church needs to preach. Let us not be reactionary (jumping away from extremes into other extremes). We must preach that Jesus loves sinners so much that He died to take away their sins, not leave them in them. That is the true message of holiness. Salvation is not of works, but [i]"we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."[/i] (Ephesians 2:10)

Thank you Lord for the messages here on SI that preach the true Gospel and not the "cheap grace" gospel we hear so often in these apostate days.

So amen to brother Conlon, and to all the brethren who preach the true grace of God.

C
ChrisJD

Brother Robert, I appreciate your thoughtfull and balanced reply.


Sister Diane, I appreciate what you shared about anger and it spoke to me also. I felt some pricks as I read. I shared with a brother at the confrence how I read in a book a while back how fisherman have to spend time cleaning their nets. I think that applies here, that we need to spend time apart cleaning the nets of our souls from all the filth that may collect there as we labor.

Brother Eli,

Appreciate what you shared also,


"Let's not throw away the real thing in an attempt to remove the false."

I thought of how the Lord Jesus said


"Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered."


Having recovered this key should we lose it again or let it rust from neglect? Or was the recovery of it not from the Lord?

Also brother...


"Holiness? Yes: there is true holiness, and we need the fruit of such holiness."

Friends, can we forget the words of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the mount where He told us of such blessedness as: meekness, righteousness, and poverty of spirit? And is not that blessedness, holiness?


But again I wonder brothers and sisters how much we may say about the preaching of others beyond if to ask: is it of God or is it not. For if it is of God, than who can say anything against it?!! And if it is not, but it is done in His name, does it not still bare upon it a certain holiness which demands we keep it above the level of idle commentary, or of curiosity or of our own critique?

In meditating upon that later thing, I thought of what the Lord said regarding the offering which the rebels offered when they challenged Moses:

"And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, Speak unto Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, that he take up the censers out of the burning, and scatter thou the fire yonder; for they are hallowed. The censers of these sinners against their own souls, let them make them broad plates for a covering of the altar: for they offered them before the LORD, therefore they are hallowed: and they shall be a sign unto the children of Israel."

- Numbers chapter 16 verses 36-38(KJV)

[i]...for they offered them before the LORD, therefore they are hallowed[/i]

Chris

S
sermonindex


roaringlamb said

Now only by the grace of God, has He taught me how He deals with people, and I learned as He dealt with me
Dear Patrick,

Thank you for all you shared, honestly and bravely, in your last post, of how your preaching has been changed by the Lord's love.

Although I don't preach, my message has been radically changed also, by His dealings with me.

May we be 'slow to chide and swift to bless'.

D
dohzman

He stated that it was while he was still in Ohio that his concern came to him about the “angry watchmen” which is not a phrase I find anywhere in the scriptures.

Actually he said he's had this message coming to him regularly and while in Canton he had a dream which re-confirmed what he had from the Lord previously, listen again closely.

Galatians talks about those who started out in Faith but than wanted to be made perfect by works of the flesh or legalism, that's what he's addressing, people leaving the prosperity message and trying to get back to the simplicity of the gospel which is simple trust in Jesus Christ, it still is the goodness of God that LEADS men unto (into) repentance, right?, but in thier way were angry watchmen who made the way hard and beat these saints with do this don't do that until the returning bride was to weary to climb to higher ground.
He never infered that the Revival Conference was out of order, he's sounding a general alarm to the whole body of Christ.
I find so many in this thread are so insecure it amazes me! Something unheard of happened at that conference but now after the mountain top its time to come down to real life again and see the church as it is, movements have always run hot than cold, the pendulum has always swung from one side completely to the opposite side, the Lord's warning through him is accurate, God Himself will show everybody in the weeks and months to come. If there is no grace, no quickening so that faith may give practical expression, than that which is heard is of no use to the hearer. Now that doesn't nessarily make the preacher at fault, it can be the hearer who has grown deaf or has hardness of heart, Jesus Himself noted this many times to His disciples. So what is an angry watchman? Listen to the message again, the results were they beat the bride, they tore her veil away, they uncovered her nakedness, they brought discouragement, the one man even went back to the place he had fled from and that house burned down around him, think of what he said. You guys are great with doctrine but you don't have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Instead of hearing and understanding you want to explain it away or defend a position or feel threatened that something we just accomplished is maybe somehow evil or false, how shallow is that!
Come on!, he's sounding a warning, many of these hurting people will come here on this board to find practical help and how are "we" going to handle them?

C
crsschk

Well ... Amen Brother.

I find so many in this thread are so insecure it amazes me! Something unheard of happened at that conference but now after the mountain top its time to come down to real life again and see the church as it is, movements have always run hot than cold, the pendulum has always swung from one side completely to the opposite side,

And to think that there might have been more of a concern over Keith Daniel's ... intensity. But you are right brother, somehow there is a way when everything gets put under an extreme microscope that the message can get lost in the delivery or the delivery gets analyzed past the message.

Well said.

S
swsojourner

Something unheard of happened at that conference but now after the mountain top its time to come down to real life again and see the church as it is, movements have always run hot tha

What was it that was "[b]unheard of[/b]" that happened at the conference, if I may ask ? personally, I thought it was quite subdued, possibly a prophetic offense. "Do not quench the Spirt. Do not despise prophecies."

that's not to denigrate anything that happened there or to say the Spirit of God wasn't there, or at work BUT

giving it wings, ;)
Karsten

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dohzman

What was it that was "unheard of" that happened at the conference, if I may ask

You had several speakers from many denominational backgrounds who were there for only one reason, Revival. To be sure there wasn't a charismatic/penecostal backdrop but that doesn't mean the Giftings of the Holy Spirit wasn't in operation there. Quick testamony, (I was gone much of the time due to a member in my church having passed away and so I had calling hours to attend as well as a funeral Wed afternoon, also I had to shuffle several people around town as well as look to the needs that would arise during the conference, so I only made 4 complete sessions) Here's the testamony, A brother was walking the halls praying wed late morning when the Holy Spirit spoke to that individual to speak a word of encouragement to Denny Kenaston (I trust I have it right here), they told Denny that he was a plough sent before the move of God which would proceed in the next evenings, I think that's how it was told me, and that his faithful presentation of the Word of God would be rewarded in the move of God following. Personally I saw God move in both evening services, very powerfully in wednesday nites and on thursday nite it was a good reminder to guard the gates in our lives(eye, door-mouth-ears-heart), I doubt anyone took the time to watch Daniels after the alter time was over as he made his way through the scattered few that was left, he continued to minister on a one by one basis and occassionally to several, I actually believe his ministery at this time was very good, very anointed, precious.


To the penecostal/charismatic, it was very different, but what if we should someday find our selves in jail in a hostile setting? Will we be able to see the Hand of God and/or hear His voice or feel His presence? In a somewhat dull seemingly uneventful setting?

To the non-penecostals, when God starts to move in what seems like rapid spontaneous moves are you going to be so dull of hearing that you miss God, or worse yet dismiss it as of something devlish or fleshly?

I think in the days ahead the Lord is going to surprise many, it'll take a real heart that only wants to hear His voice and follow Him that will make it in the days ahead, I'll give you a key: You must become like a child, for such is the kingdom of heaven.

R
roadsign

“angry watchmen” … is not a phrase I find anywhere in the scriptures.
I can accept your concern over the adoption of this label - and its potential drifting from the word. Before we know it, we can start to create in our minds a kind of species – and then run away with it – diagnosing this person and that person with that label – and them discarding them into their own camp – like the “Jezebel” label of the past. (More than a few godly women have been given that label!) This is the risk with any words. The original sense of the label can get lost. And we can use it to foster division in the Body.

Yet the idea of angry “judges” (let's try another label) is certainly seen in the Bible. Consider King David:

When the prophet, Nathan told David the story of a rich man who took a poor man's one-and-only lamb, David's response was revealing: "David burned with anger against the man , and he said, '…the man deserves to die….he had no pity.'" David had an acute sense of justice, but he lacked mercy. He, who had committed far worse sins, did not see the parallel - that's how blind he was to the evil of his own actions, and therefore blind to his own need for God's mercy.

While David harbored unconfessed sin he became an angry legalist who held the law over the head of another sinner.

This is a universal problem:
Like David, when we get angry at someone else’s actions, it could be that we are guilty of the same sin and can't see it. That is the power of denial combined with a dulled conscience. It is entirely possible that we are acutely awareness of God's standards, even teaching and preaching them, but yet be blind to our own shortcomings in those very areas. Our anger at others reveals that we have not received God’s mercy and forgiveness for ourselves.

... so you see, it's not just about mean preachers "out there" who we have to be wary of.

Diane

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sermonindex

it could be that we are guilty of the same sin and can't see it
For many years, I've believed the guard against this was established by Paul when he wrote

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. (Rom 2)


It is far healthier to allow ourselves to be convicted by this word, than to ignore the effect of ignoring it.

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sermonindex

This message deeply moved me and spoke to me in many ways about many things.I'm praying about emailing him just to let him know.

C
crsschk

Perhaps some further clarification ... With what has transpired for some of us in the past week, coming fresh from the conference, our perspective might be slightly biased but I would like to put even that in a proper perspective ...

I do hope and pray that it is a right perspective. We may not have had the 'type' of Revival that has been know of old and am still holding out that the events themselves may yet foster or develop out in other ways after some germinating ... Not presuming nor prophesying anything, I can only speak to the changes already begun in my own heart and thinking.

Perhaps what I have taken notice of through the years here of our shared experience on this forum and do let me say there is a great import here, this is not mere trifling matters we are often dealing with but each others souls ... The notice is that we do need to enlarge the reservoir of our 'perhaps' and have an ability to accept some things that may not be all that important and then the greatest of all these is to just keep them to ourselves.

What we saw at the conference was in many ways given flesh and face, blood and air, tangible qualities that cannot transpose letters stitched together in words that we write here. Please don't misunderstand, it is just as paradoxical to say that when the words we use to give expression are the same ones that also spell us as saints and give impetus to our spiritual condition, to our love or lack thereof for the Brethren and finally and most importantly, to the Lord Himself. Had it in mind to put this up on the Canton Journal but present it here;

[u]By this[/u] shall [u]all men know[/u] that ye are my disciples, if ye [u]have[/u] love one to another. Joh 13:35

"[b]My[/b] disciples"

This lone verse is so powerful and important, each and every word could and perhaps should be underlined, moreover embedded into our hearts. I do not know what it is that would have us going right past this all too quickly, the readiness of some other doctrine or dispute, some other controversy ... some minor thing that really is only that which creates and continues, feeds and prolongs strife and quarreling ... sigh. It is not a sigh of disgust but one of ...

Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. [i]My brethren, these things ought not so to be[/i]. Jas 3:10

And please, the latter part of this the emphasis without forgetting the first. Need to find and recall just where it was that a great deal of these problems, it may have been on the subject of politics, is confused and made more difficult just by the way of approach. Too often something is taken and re-stated with a different meaning and intention than the author has intended, far better to [i]ask[/i] than to presume. And, to regroup ... just as often better to be just left unsaid.

What I am at pains to express here is that for all that might be either uncomfortable or different in approach by our Brethren a great deal of it does not boil down to important matters of our great faith, that is what was taken great notice of with the out-workings of the conference, all of a sudden these things that can become great swellings of controversy and strife are subdued in an atmosphere of common purpose and heart desire such as what we experienced.

This is and was not a sweet and sentimentalistic manner or matter, many of the speakers, most, were very strong in word and in passion, grieved by the present state of the church overall and that is because they do indeed [i]love her[/i], she is the bride, we [i]are[/i] the bride. That, was in great evidence there and furthermore that same emphasis was primarily a focus of what is wrong with [i]us[/i] not 'them' as is far too easy to give sway to. Certainly it is there, certainly that aspect. The only way we are ever going to move forward and right the wrongs is to do them where they must be done first and that is to look unto ourselves long and hard and deep, take an accounting of where we stand with the Lord individually and rectify [i]that[/i], then on to reconciliation with each other and then unto the world at large, maybe then will they take notice of what the Lord spoke of by their 'knowing' that we are indeed His disciples.

I am of a mind the Lord may well not send a revival until we get ourselves into a position where He can.

So if anything my beloved Brethren and friends might we find out what is truly important, what can stay unsaid and what can be accepted without either compromise or defending. I can understand brother Darryl just as well as some of the things brought up as a concern here, look to the Lord and see what thick skin He had though He was also the epitome of love and compassion. The same One who could have mercy on the vilest of sinners also held a threat of impending doom within ear shot of those who came to arrest Him;

[i]Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?[/i] Mat 26:53

Might we be just more sober over these things and humble ourselves, giving place to each other ... holding our peace when it is often more than necessary. Something I am quick to hear but often slow to learn myself.

C
ChrisJD

continuing from what brother Mike said...


[b][color=660000]And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. [/color][/b]


John chapter 17 verses 19-23(KJV)

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sermonindex


You had several speakers from many denominational backgrounds who were there for only one reason, Revival. To be sure there wasn't a charismatic/penecostal backdrop but that doesn't mean the Giftings of the Holy Spirit wasn't in operation there. Quick testamony, (I was gone much of the time due to a member in my church having passed away and so I had calling hours to attend as well as a funeral Wed afternoon, also I had to shuffle several people around town as well as look to the needs that would arise during the conference, so I only made 4 complete sessions) Here's the testamony, A brother was walking the halls praying wed late morning when the Holy Spirit spoke to that individual to speak a word of encouragement to Denny Kenaston (I trust I have it right here), they told Denny that he was a plough sent before the move of God which would proceed in the next evenings, I think that's how it was told me, and that his faithful presentation of the Word of God would be rewarded in the move of God following. Personally I saw God move in both evening services, very powerfully in wednesday nites and on thursday nite it was a good reminder to guard the gates in our lives(eye, door-mouth-ears-heart), I doubt anyone took the time to watch Daniels after the alter time was over as he made his way through the scattered few that was left, he continued to minister on a one by one basis and occassionally to several, I actually believe his ministery at this time was very good, very anointed, precious.


To the penecostal/charismatic, it was very different, but what if we should someday find our selves in jail in a hostile setting? Will we be able to see the Hand of God and/or hear His voice or feel His presence? In a somewhat dull seemingly uneventful setting?

To the non-penecostals, when God starts to move in what seems like rapid spontaneous moves are you going to be so dull of hearing that you miss God, or worse yet dismiss it as of something devlish or fleshly?

I think in the days ahead the Lord is going to surprise many, it'll take a real heart that only wants to hear His voice and follow Him that will make it in the days ahead, I'll give you a key: You must become like a child, for such is the kingdom of heaven.


Amen brother well said. God was moving in a powerful way uniting those of many different backgrounds and traditions under the banner of "truth" and the "blood of Jesus". I believe Carter Conlon's message about the "angry watchman" was given not to address the conference but inlign with the conference preparing the way for truth revival. I have seen many that have been "revived" but with a zeal that does not have compassion and speak very hard against sin. This is a great danger and it is worthy to be spoken against.

What a glorious thing the Lord did!

12 speakers, 3 days, 1 theme.

God did it all. Glory to His Name, may the Lamb that was slain recieve the reward of His sufferings.

R
roadsign

Perhaps this thread has served its purpose. Nevertheless the message that the Spirit has imprinted on my mind through last week’s duel sermons at Times Square is still burning on my conscience.

Through a dream [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20420&forum=35&3]A Lost Identity [/url] God has been heightening my empathy for those who are lost and looking to find their way back. In the dream I was one of them! It was a horrible experience! There are many like me in the dream - sheep who have wandered through all kinds of religious systems (represented by the monstrous cathedral in the dream) only to discover that people in those places are more occupied with themselves. The sheep may be lonely, disconnected, and have come to distrust everyone. They may be trying new age philosophy. But, still their search leaves them swirling in a quagmire – not knowing who they are anymore – feeling non-human. Maybe some act out their emptiness through rebellion. Maybe they cut themselves to remind them that they are alive. Maybe they seek identity through belonging to an organization, trying to dull the emptiness.

Now, imagine our angry watchmen coming along, condemning these people with reminders of their wickedness and worthlessness. They already know that! Oh, how easy it is to beat the wounded sheep, and make them even more lame!

God has been speaking to us a single message through various recent threads: WE NEED TO PRESENT CHRIST. If we believed that Christ is enough, we wouldn’t resort to all manner of manipulative devises that flow out of the flesh – be it offering “candy” or offering “vinegar”.

Christ is enough! He is all in all. When he radiates through our lives, others will see it. And only then will our message be believable. Remember, that the wandering sheep have heard all kinds of advice about the right way. They have come to distrust all of it, and they aren’t about to trust us just because we claim we have the right answer. They must see it – or rather Him - Christ! Can they?


Christ is the way to the “higher ground”. Christ is the place to flee to. No where else will do. It is a spiritual place.

Oh, my brothers and sisters, I plead: May we be ambassadors of Christ, ministers of reconciliation – restorers – not making cleaned-up “empty cups” , but making people alive in Christ.

”We proclaim HIM, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect IN CHRIST. To this end I labor, struggling with all HIS energy, which is so powerfully works in me.” Col. 1:28,29


Diane

D
dohzman

I'm not a Daniel so I won't tackle your dream, but I did find it interesting.

What I'm hearing from the Lord these days is really simple, the ones who will weather the storm of apostasy will be those who have child like faith in Jesus Christ.

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sermonindex


dohzman said

What I'm hearing from the Lord these days is really simple, the ones who will weather the storm of apostasy will be those who have child like faith in Jesus Christ.
I would testify this: 'the ones who will weather the storm' 'will be those who have child like faith in Jesus Christ.'


He is at rest in any storm.

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sermonindex


roadsign wrote

Yesterday I listened to the sermon [u]Show Me Your Glory[/u] by Wm Carrol of Times Square and was struck to the core of my soul! It is a fitting sequel to the “Beware of Angry Watchmen” sermon. Its impact on me cannot be described in words. I wept throughout it and felt God’s holy presence – his glory. I sensed the wooing of God’s love – so blazing, so intense - not only for me, but especially for those whom I am interceding for – those sheep who have wandered from the flock, damaged and caught by the wolves
Dear Diane,

What a precious word indeed. I heard things I'd never heard before, and that love of God you felt so keenly, was very very touching. It was a real encouragement to my soul, to press on.

S
sermonindex

By Josh Parsley

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:14,15

John chapter 3 is probably the most well known chapter of the Bible. Many seem to rush through the chapter, pause at verse 16, and then rush through the rest of it. There are so many truths in this chapter that need to be mulled over and mused by modern Christians. So many of us have heard basic truths so many times they we never really think of the implications or the deeper meaning of it. This is what is commonly called a truism. In this short space here I’m going to labor to show a few characteristics and outcomes of faith.

First, let’s look at some background information about this serpent of Moses so we can assimilate it into our thinking of faith. If we don’t understand what he is speaking of in these verses, John 3:16 means nothing, for this is the very illustration he uses to show us what is needed to “not perish.” Looking back to Numbers 21, we can see that Israel was blessed by God in that they won a battle and were on their way toward the Red Sea. As they were walking they began to be impatient, not only with Moses, but with God Himself. Being impatient usually stems from a self centered mindset in which you are demanding to get what you want, rather than trusting God. This is in distinction with a Godly urgency where the motive is for God’s glory, rather than yourself. As they went in this self centered mindset, God gave a manifestation of His wrath against sin in the form of serpents. These serpents attacked the disobedient. Israel cried out to their mediator, Moses, and God told Moses to lift up a bronze serpent on a pole. Whoever looked upon it was healed

Before we look at this faith, it would be good to remind us of something. Israel had, at minimum, heard of God’s goodness. They were not a people who were ignorant that God could deliver. The book of Romans teaches us that men cannot believe unless Christ has been preached. Can you believe in something you have never heard of? Of course not. The first thing we see about converting faith is a desire to be delivered from sin. One of the first things Israel did when these serpents came is say, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us." An obvious fact is that if they didn’t know it was possible for God to forgive their sin, they wouldn’t have asked. Surely they would have put things into their own hands and tried to correct their sin if this knowledge wasn’t there. Their cry for mercy presupposes a hope that mercy is possible.

As I said, the first aspect is a desire to be delivered from sin, but there is more to this. Consider the atmosphere they were in. It was completely chaotic, serpents were everywhere, and people were going down every moment. Fathers, mothers, children, and everything they had was effected by their sin. It sounds strikingly similar to today. Have you ever been around a snake or wild animal? Would you have even considered taking your eye off of it for a moment? Probably not, you wanted to do everything you could do to protect yourself. But this was the very opposite of what God required them to do. They had to lift their eyes upon this serpent on a pole and away from the live serpents all around them! God demanded that they put down their guard and defense and look to his solution. They had to turn away from their sins, turn away from the consequences of it, and look to God in their helplessness trusting in his solution. This was not a mere glance but a fixation of one’s self to the power and deliverance of God. There is also somewhat of a paradox in this. This gazing toward the serpent reminded them of the very sin they committed and the penalty of it. How could it not? The very thing they fear, the serpents, is the very thing they gaze upon for deliverance. And so it is with the Cross. The very thing we fear, death and God’s severity, is the very thing that fills our mind when we consider the Cross. Oh! The wisdom of God was surely manifest in the Cross.

If a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. This is the immediate outcome of faith. Many things in the Christian life are a process, but certain things are not. This healing didn’t take years, but only a moment. They very moment a person’s being is directed toward Christ in that moment salvation is wrought. This healing put them in a place where they were before their fall. The rest of the chapter shows them singing songs of praise and winning battles. We must never take our eyes off of Christ and we will be changed. Or as the scripture says, “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Cor 3:18)”

Let us be like Abraham who “lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold (Gen 22:13)” the very thing that saved him from shedding his own son’s blood was in sight. Or like Rebecca who “lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. (Gen 24:64)” Or David who said “unto thee, O LORD, do I lift up my soul. (Psa 25:1).” We must be like the disciples who “when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. (Matt 17:8)” lest we be like the rich man who “in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. (Luke 16:23)”

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roadsign

What I'm hearing from the Lord these days is really simple, the ones who will weather the storm of apostasy will be those who have child like faith in Jesus Christ.

The challenge, of course, is to discover those ways that our faith is not so “simple” (pure) - that is, how it is rivalled by idolatrous strongholds. Really only the Lord knows our true heart, and thankfully he works in our lives to expose them. And that is not pretty! Let’s admit, nothing makes us angrier than when our idols are threatened. That’s why people say that revival is messy. The polish comes off! We discover that we’re not near as saintly as we have assessed ourselves to be. While this is a rude awakening, (re-vive = wake up) it also helps us to see our own need for God’s mercy.

I am learning to value this process more and more, as my burden for the wandering and lost sheep intensifies. We, God’s people will never be able or willing to come alongside of them and lead them into a pure faith in the Shepherd as long as our faith is tainted by idols of some sort. It is easy to point our fingers at the sinners, including all those faulty churches and institutions out there, and talk about how bad they are. It may be easy to tell sinners they should repent and trust Christ. But, telling them is not the same as actually helping them get there – either through prayer or through being involved in their lives, as God equips us.

Jesus said, “The harvest is plentiful and the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest to send workers…”

In my dream there were no harvesters, no workers. Not one person even realized that I was a needy “neighbour”. Some were too absorbed in their own squabbles to notice my plight. Some were busy trying to incorporate their expectations and customs into their “worship”. Some were just too absorbed in their own tasks. Nobody cared about me!

Of coures Jesus’ words still apply. Every day we are surrounded by people who will some day be ready to be “harvested. How dare we conclude that all the sinners “hate God”, don’t want God , or just want what feels good , want to be entertained. Of course there is truth in that, but we can subtly write them off with those assumptions - and then we won’t do a thing for them. Where is the faith in that?

May God give us a sense of urgency for the harvest.

Diane

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sermonindex


In roadsign's dream

Some were busy trying to incorporate their expectations and customs into their “worship”.
Uh oh! I've been guilty of that! This is a timely reminder as I start going to a church which has its own unique style.

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sermonindex

(on p10) Diane said

Yes, yes, God is reaching out his hands to them, inviting them: “Come just as you are!” Some day these sheep will begin their journey back home, and I want to be ready to receive them and usher them into God’s presence - to offer his balm of forgiveness and grace, to help heal their fragile, wounded spirits.
Dear Diane,

I've been thinking that it is wonderful how the word of God (which sort of began at the conference or because of it) is reaching you where you are, in such a powerful way, to continue God's work of preparation in your heart.

If I had been at Times Square Church last Sunday, I would have eagerly accepted Conlon/Carrol’s invitation to the altar - not as a returning prodigal, but as one willing receive them. However, I wasn’t there. So, alas, the day for cyberspace altars has arrived, and so here I offer myself to the Lord
Your readiness to respond is a blessing, and certainly a challenge, and the response in your post makes a lot more sense, since I heard [u]Show me Your glory[/u] for myself. I was struck at the parallels between law and grace which were brought out, and also, the connection to the 'angry watchmen' of that morning's preaching.

Reversing your original order:

[color=003366]'May those who have left SI because they have been wounded here or soured to this body be stirred to return and find restoration and true humility. Please, Lord, protect SI from the snares of the enemy.'

'May the SI forum become one huge altar to the glory of God - [b]where the tired, lost, fed up, and fearful can come and find a safe environment – free from the risk[/b] of being snared by bitter watchman and “doctors” who dispense self-righteousness.'[/color]


I am wondering if we need to prepare ourselves for a fair amount of audible moaning and groaning, as those laden with guilt and pain stumble across the threshhold here. As a midwife, I learned to block out the noise of a crying baby, and get on with attending to what it needed, knowing there was [u]no[/u] chance it would stop crying, if it was neglected any longer. May the Lord give us the necessary fortitude to 'attend' (listen), while people re-order the truths they [u]do[/u] know, which they can build upon.

One thing which is interesting me is how different are all our ministries in the Spirit, and how quickly the Lord has moved to take you on in yours; how graciously you have shared this with us all, and how encouraging it is to hear of it.

When I heard there had been a strong move of the Spirit on the same Sunday (as the two sermons addressed in this thread), at the small church I attended last Sunday, it appears obvious to me it is all part of the same movement of God, to bring to Himself a people who are ready.

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rookie

Sister Diane wrote:

I am learning to value this process more and more, as my burden for the wandering and lost sheep intensifies. We, God’s people will never be able or willing to come alongside of them and lead them into a pure faith in the Shepherd as long as our faith is tainted by idols of some sort. It is easy to point our fingers at the sinners, including all those faulty churches and institutions out there, and talk about how bad they are. It may be easy to tell sinners they should repent and trust Christ. But, telling them is not the same as actually helping them get there – either through prayer or through being involved in their lives, as God equips us.

This is where I and my wife are at. Everything you said here is a description of where we are now...

God Bless
your brother in Christ
Jeff

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rookie

I listened to this sermon last night about 4 in the morning...what I got out of it was a beautiful love story of Christ and His bride.

The beauty and glory of God, expressed in His Son, a Song given to us by Solomon. This song sang to my heart last night, through a faithful man of God.


In Christ
Jeff

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Hi Jeff,

Amen. I hope you find it possible to listen to the evening preaching of the same day, Show me Your glory, which made a big impression on Diane. The link is in her post at the top of p10, or the Times Square website.

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roadsign

Jeff:

This is where I and my wife are at.

“There is one Spirit….”

Dorcas:

there had been a strong move of the Spirit on the same Sunday

Yes, there may have been a surge of Spirit on that Sunday. Even in my church – my minister preached a convicting sermon on empathy. God is not partial to where he chooses to speak – maybe where there are some ears open to him, I don’t know.

Now, I realize that my church is not up to par. I am aware of its shortcomings and need for revival. But, let me tell you, if anyone starts lashing out against my church – like some of the posts I read around here, they would be receiving some strong words from me: GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY CHURCH!

This forum aught to count it a blessing that I am not a mod here! The way I feel right now (not that I’m right in this!) that handy mods’ delete button would be just a-clickin’. In my view, far too many sinful words are being permitted – words that speak against God’s project – his church. This should not be permitted - verbal assaults against just about every kind of organization and questionable figurehead and individual. There seems to be some sort of perverse relishing of evil – of stirring the pot, and looking for what else can float to the top, so that we can gawk at it, and show everyone else. Maybe finding people worse than us makes us feel better about ourselves – but it is not the way Jesus said that he would build his church. Nowhere in Scripture are we called to engage in this practise – AT THE EXPENSE of investing in his bride – those who desperately need mature Christians to come along side of them, teach them, help them learn the truths of God - so that they themselves are equipped to discern. ”Then [they] will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching…. “ Eph. 4:14

In all fairness, I doubt that most of the offenders realize that God may very well be stirring in those “terrible” places (hearts) - touching consciences, secretly, polishing his nuggets in the ashes. Let us be careful, lest our verbal hand-grenades damage the tender shoots of newly forming life.

May we be willing to come to the light so we can fellowship in the light.
Shine Jesus shine.
Diane


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