Was God tempted to worship Satan?

Well, first...

James 1:13
For God cannot be tempted with evil

It is clear that God cannot be tempted.
So...

Matthew 4:1
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

It is clear that Jesus is not God.

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/mt4110ex.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/temptati.htm

How can some claim that God was tempted to worship Satan?

Nile

Jesus was fully God, and fully man. He was tested in every point like us, yet without sin.

It is clear that Jesus is not God.

Before we have to counter this latest attack on Christianity, am I reading this correctly? Do you really believe that the Divinity of Christ is up for grabs?

James is not denying the fact that God can be tempted in some sense. In order to know what James exactly meant we quote the immediate context:

"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted [u]when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.[/u] Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." James 1:13-15

James is referring to evil inclinations, sinful desires, that causes a person to be tempted and sin. Since God has no evil inclinations, no lustful feelings or sinful desires, it is not possible for God to be tempted to sin. God is completely good and holy. What James is basically saying is that only God has no desire to do anything that is sinful. Yet, this doesn't mean that fallen creatures cannot tempt God, since the Holy Scriptures clearly teach that many have tried to tempt God, and failed miserably:

"Then all the congregation of the children of Israel set out on their journey from the Wilderness of Sin, according to the commandment of the LORD, and camped in Rephidim; but there was no water for the people to drink. Therefore the people contended with Moses, and said, ‘Give us water, that we may drink.’ So Moses said to them, ‘Why do you contend with me? [b]Why do you tempt the LORD?[/b]’" Exodus 17:1-2 NKJV

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, [b]and have tempted me now these ten times,[/b] and have not hearkened to my voice;" Numbers 14:22 KJV

"On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. And the LORD said to Satan, ‘Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the LORD, ‘From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.’ Then the LORD said to Satan, ‘Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, [b]though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.’[/b]" Job 2:1-3

"Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: [b]When your fathers tempted me[/b], proved me, and saw my works forty years." Hebrews 3:8-9 KJV

The Holy Bible also says that even the Holy Spirit can be tempted:

"Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together [b]to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?[/b] Behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out." Acts 5:9 KJV

Therefore, God cannot be tempted despite people ever so often trying to tempt him. There is nothing within God to which sin could appeal and make him be tempted to do anything unholy or evil. It is in that sense that James says God cannot be tempted (in his innermost being) to do evil even if he is tempted from the outside to do something that he does not want (i.e. people or demonic beings trying to make him do something that is not in agreement with his perfect will). Even if people (seek or try to) tempt him – looking at the event from the outside –, he is not tempted – looking at his inner reaction to the temptation. In a sense, this is a problem of the English language which uses the same word for two very different things.

An illustration may help to clarify the issue better than abstract explanations: Some people revolt at cigarettes. Offering them a cigarette will not be a temptation whatsoever. They do not even have to struggle to refuse. Because of their disgust for it they will immediately reject it. For others, particularly former smokers who just quit, being offered a cigarette is a temptation which they have to actively fight, and force themselves to deny the offer, even though there is a desire in them to take it. Everyone has a certain set of innermost desires (some maybe harmless and others bad or sinful). We can be externally tempted (by others) for everything, but will only be internally tempted by those external temptations which find a corresponding desire inside of us.

In a similar manner, just because Jesus was tempted doesn't mean he isn't God, anymore than Yahweh God being tempted proves that he cannot be God either. Nor does this mean that since Christ was tempted he, therefore, had lustful or evil inclinations which would move him to sin.

Second, James had no problem in affirming the Deity of the Lord Jesus, despite the fact that Christ had been tempted:

"James, a servant of God [b]AND OF the Lord Jesus Christ,[/b] To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings." James 1:1

"My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in [b]our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.[/b]" James 2:1

James says that he is the slave of God AND OF the Lord Jesus, and calls Jesus the Lord of glory. James wasn’t the only one who identified Jesus as the Lord of glory:

"None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, [b]they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.[/b]" 1 Corinthians 2:8

The title, "Lord of glory", indicates that both James and Paul believed that Jesus is Yahweh since the OT speaks of the glory of Yahweh, that Yahweh is the one who is truly glorious:

Lift up your heads, O gates! And be lifted up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD, strong and mighty, the LORD, mighty in battle! Lift up your heads, O gates! And lift them up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory! Selah Psalm 24:7-10

"‘And I will be to her a wall of fire all around,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will be the glory in her midst.’" Zechariah 2:5

Yahweh also said that he would not share his glory with another:

"I am the LORD; that is my name;[b] my glory I give to no other,[/b] nor my praise to carved idols." Isaiah 42:8

"For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last." Isaiah 48:11-12

Hence, the criticism only shows that the questioner doesn’t understand the Holy Bible since none of the NT authors had a problem with Jesus being tempted and, at the same time, believing that he was also God.

Finally, the question fails to take into consideration that Jesus wasn't only God but was also fully and truly human. Therefore, as a man, Christ could experience the same general temptations that all men experience, but with one HUGE difference. The Lord Jesus never acted upon these external temptations but remained completely sinless:

"Simon Peter answered him, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, [b]that you are the Holy One of God.[/b]’" John 6:68-69

"The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory, but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, [b]and in him there is no falsehood.[/b]" John 7:18

"And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, [b]for I always do the things that are pleasing to him... Which one of you convicts me of sin?[/b] If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?" John 8:29, 46

"I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. [b]He has no claim on me,[/b]" John 14:30

"For our sake he made him to be sin [b]who knew no sin,[/b] so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, [b]yet without sin.[/b]" Hebrews 4:15

"For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, [b]holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.[/b] He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself." Hebrews 7:26-27

"how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself [b]without blemish[/b] to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Hebrews 9:14

"knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, [b]like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.[/b]" 1 Peter 1:18-19

"He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth." 1 Peter 2:22

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, [b]the righteous for the unrighteous,[/b] that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit," 1 Peter 3:18

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, [b]Jesus Christ the righteous.[/b]" 1 John 2:1

"And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself [b]as he is pure[/b] You know that he appeared to take away sins, [b]and in him there is no sin[/b]." 1 John 3:3, 5

To conclude, the divinely-inspired Scriptures teach that all three divine Persons can be tempted without this implying that they cannot be God, or that they have some evil inclination which would cause any of them to sin.

-[i][b]taken from [url=http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/index.htm]Papers by Sam Shamoun[/url][/i][/b]

Robert, you must have missed last week's "discussion" where Nile and a few others tried to convince us of this by using the same old boring Arian arguments, which were countered with numerous scriptures and history lessons, which were also subsequently ignored in favor of red herrings and other rabbit trails.

Nile, I believe you were asked by mods to put this heresy to rest, were you not? But to answer your question, no God was not tempted by Satan. Jesus was. Does this disprove Christ's divinity? No. You need to study the doctrines of Hypostatic Union and Communicatio Idiomatum.

BTW, why do you frequent a site where all the speakers and members you would call heretics and they would call you heretics?

I pray you leave this deception and turn to the truth.

edit: not needed for conversation

It is clear that Jesus is not God.

Brother if this is what you believe, then I am concerned for you.

Consider Christ's words here-
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:23 [b]That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.[/b]

God would not allow another to receive this worship if it were not showing Christ as God, for even the Commandments say, "thou shalt have no other Gods before me" and also "I will share my glory with no other".

You may think that by questioning Christ's divinity is not dangerous, it actually is showing that you might not know the Christ of the Bible.

Robert, you must have missed last week's "discussion" where Nile and a few others tried to convince us of this by using the same old boring Arian arguments, which were countered with numerous scriptures and history lessons, which were also subsequently ignored in favor of red herrings and other rabbit trails.

I missed it. There is a dangerous trend here I have seen where it seems to me that a lot of these younger guys think all sorts of essential Christian doctrines are up for grabs. Again, we can have these discussions and personally I am quite ready to move forward in defense of the faith if necessary; but my heart is grieved that this attitude seems to prevail among some. Forgive me if I am coming off strong here, I am just very alarmed at this.

BTW, why do you frequent a site where all the speakers and members you would call heretics and they would call you heretics?

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. (II Timothy 2:23)

The question of "Christ being tempted" and "God cannot be tempted" is a most elementary issue one faces immediately as they begin to study God's word. Is it not better than one would sit and learn and listen before enguaging in argument? Is this what we are seeing? YOung men that worship the art of debate and live to destroy their lesser learned opponent?

If one is willing to know the truth then the answer is easily understood. If strive and confusion is the objective then impressionable and young minds are at risk. Not everyone that frequents this site majors in apologetics and their faith can be overthrown or ministering questions can cause their faith to waver.

Notice what Paul here calls, "Unlearned questions." This is what we are dealing with here. Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. It was in Christ's humanity that He was tempted in all point like as we are - yet without sin.

(Hebrews 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

(Hebrews 2:15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

(Hebrews 2:16) For verily [u]he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him[/u] the seed of Abraham.

Christ existed from eternity past as the Son of God; but now has appeared, having taken on the nature of the seed of Abraham. He was not a man before taking on the nature of a man. He was not an angel that took on the nature of an Angel. He is the Son of God, the word of God that was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Thank you Robert for your posts. They are edification, as well as what the others wrote on the Unitarian post last week. May we all grow into the Head that is Christ Himself!

With regards to temptation and Christ i've been thinking lately about something. (I've run into some Christadelphians who basically have the same beliefs as Nile so i've been thinking in defense of the scriptures along these lines too).

If Christ were not God, that is if He were ONLY man, He could have done nothing but sin for the word says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Christ was not baptized with the Holy Spirit until around 30 years old. How then did He keep from sinning for those first 30 years? It's because although He took on our nature He still retained His nature. As we have said, He is all God and all man.

just a thought

I missed it. There is a dangerous trend here I have seen where it seems to me that a lot of these younger guys think all sorts of essential Christian doctrines are up for grabs. Again, we can have these discussions and personally I am quite ready to move forward in defense of the faith if necessary; but my heart is grieved that this attitude seems to prevail among some. Forgive me if I am coming off strong here, I am just very alarmed at this.

I agree that it is alarming. And grieving. One week the most popular thread was a few trying to convince us all of Sabellianism, and the very next week the most popular thread was a few trying to convince us all of Arianism. Not only that, but many in the church today just want to go along to get along...and this deals with who Christ is! You coming off as too strong Robert? By no means! We must know the Christ we worship! Defend our faith we must, and we will!

Tears_of_joy, thank you for your response. I think that's a much more reasonable trinitarian defense of this passage than the hypostatic union. Trinitarians should use that defense instead of tying themselves up saying Jesus was tempted in the same sense that God cannot be tempted.

Thanks again,
Nile

P.S.
If you use this same sort of reasoning on the verses quoted to show that Jesus is divine, you will find them lacking as well.

If you use this same sort of reasoning on the verses quoted to show that Jesus is divine, you will find them lacking as well.

I didn't get, what you want to say here.

Nile, have you ever worshiped Jesus as God in your life? (Before the time you decided to deny him as God)

I think that's a much more reasonable trinitarian defense of this passage than the hypostatic union.

Of course you do Nile...you do not believe or understand the hypostatic union

Bah, look at this thread for what it is, an attack by the enemy.

Does it suprise anyone here that these forums and believers on here would be attacked by the opposition? We have to expect it, prepare for it and defend it.

[u][b]2 Timothy 4:1-5 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Christiaan

I think that's a much more reasonable trinitarian defense of this passage than the hypostatic union.

Your use of the term [i]hypostatic union[/i] tells me that you in advance understood at least the jest of how Christ was indeed tempted- in advance of the first post. Was this indeed an attack on the divinity of Christ? In my last conversation with Nile the finished work of the cross was in question as I recall in the Moral Gov't thread started by Philologos.

(1 Timothy 1:20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

I hope this is a lesson to our listeners of a prime example of how error begets error and then begets major heresy. This is the natural progression of an unbiblical view of Original Sin, the Atonement, and a law based salvation. Someone mentioned in that thread (I believe it was) and it was almost prophetic that these ideas will land a person in full-on liberal theology and that is exactly what has happened. The next thing to go (obviously it has gone already in practical terms) is the authority of scripture. If a person will mix a moral gov't view of man's ability to fulfill the law (which is a close view of the law that the unbelieving Jews hold to), with the notion that it is impossible that Christ died on the Cross for [u]my[/u] sins (penal substitution), with the notion that Christ was NOT in fact God, but man one will end up with the same view of Christ, His life and ministry, and the Cross as the unbelieving Jews.

(John 5:18) [u]Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him[/u], because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, [u]making himself equal with God.[/u]

The next progression in this whole debacle is that Christ did not die as God for MY sins, but as as a blasphemer that made Himself equal with God.

(John 1:1, 2) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

This is before the creation. Therefore we see the eternality of Christ. Christ is the uncreated one.

(John 1:3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This is Christ the Creator. This is an allusion to Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 45:11-13;

(Genesis 1:1) In the beginning [u]God[/u] created the heaven and the earth.

(Isaiah 45:11-13) Thus saith the [u]LORD[/u], the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

The word for God in Genesis is the Hebrew Elohiym and it is a plural term. Even within the Jews [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1993]SHEMA recital is the plural unity of God found. [/url] Whenever you see the term capitol L O R D in the AV it is the translation of YHWH the Tetragrammaton. This is the most holy name of God as given under the Old Covenant. So much so that the Jews were afraid to mispronounce it and would substitute a different word or say [i]Hashem[/i], which means THE NAME.

(John 1:10, 11) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

This is amazing! The creator of the world was [i]in[/i] the world and the world did not know it. I might say also- still will not acknowledge it.

(John 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is John's Holy Spirit breathed revelation of the incarnation and hypostatic union. The word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld HIS (personal pronoun obviously denoting personhood) glory.

Let me just say that 'salvation' that does not include a genuine transformation of man through biblical regeneration by the Holy Spirit will leave a person natural and unable to grasp Spiritual concepts. They are foolishness to them because they are spiritually discerned. This is what Moral Gov't evangelism will produce in those that do not (in spite of the theology) become truly born again; people who cannot even grasp the most basic Christian concepts.

Nile,

Hope you do recognize the sheer patience expressed toward you by the members here, all who have much more than correcting your doctrine in mind, that they care for your soul.

Indeed this is but a repeating of the same thing under a different guise, have you asked yourself why it is that this has so taken up your thoughts?

[i]Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[/i] Joh 5:18

Do you fully recognize where you are standing here?

(Edit: This verse came to mind as collary to John 5:18 ... [i]Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, Php 2:5,6 [/i] ... 'Equal', 'Equality' ... not a thing to be grasped ... "[i]but made himself nothing[/i]")

The admonishen and suggestion mentioned earlier is repeated; Challenge yourself to immerse your mind elsewhere for a season and prayer ... Let me be very blunt about this, prayer is what you desperately need to be attending to, to empty yourself before the throne and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you what you cannot accept from your own Brethren, who also have the Spirit.

If you do not wish help or to engage in learning, sharing, discussion, but only to perpetuate an agenda you will find yourself in similarity to this principle;

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The flesh in this case pertains not to the lusts of that context but to your [i]mind[/i] that would have you strip mining the very Lord of glory Himself. Repent of this.

Nile wrote:
Well, first...James 1:13 For God cannot be tempted with evil

It is clear that God cannot be tempted.
So...
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

It is clear that Jesus is not God.

How can some claim that God was tempted to worship Satan?

If not that, then you are clearly a deceiver knowing the truth but stubbornly refusing to receive the love of the truth, that you might be saved.
Because you don’t received the love of the truth to be saved, for this reason God will send you a strong delusion, that you will believe the lie: and you will be condemned for not believing the truth(2Th 2:10-12)

Do you not know that you speak evil of those things which you refuse to know: but what you naturally do know, as a brute beast, in those things you corrupt yourself(Jude 1:10). Furthermore, as a natural brute beast you would be made to be taken and destroyed, because you speak evil of the things that you refuse to understand; You shall utterly perish in your own corruption(2Peter 2:12);

Consider these Scriptures:

[b]Hebrews 4:15 [/b] [color=990000]For we have not a High Priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses with us in our weaknesses, but one who was tempted in every respect just as we are tempted, and yet did not sin.[/color]
If Jesus could not have sinned, He could not sympathize with our weaknesses or be tempted.

[b]John 17:21-22[/b] [color=990000]that all may be one, as You are in Me, Father, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
[b]:22[/b] And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, as We are One:[/color]
[b]Col 1:19[/b] [color=990000]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;[/color]
[b]Col 2:9[/b] [color=990000]For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;[/color]
[b]1Tim 3:16[/b] [color=990000]And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: [size=medium][b]God was manifested in flesh[/b][/size], was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.[/color]

Why do you purposely hide these Scriptures?

Brother logic-
Good word!
1 Timothy 3:16 And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory

Thank you for this verse.

Heterodoxic paradigms never posit anything new...they simply regurgitate and recycle ancient heresies. Dynamic Monarchianism has some serious christological and soteriological implications if Christ is not God of very God.Interestingly enough, Unitarianism seems to subscribe to a modernal understanding of Holy Writ, where human reasoning is the chief arbiter of truth and not biblical revelation. I fail to see such an understandiing of divine revelation being compatible w/ biblical truth.

BTW, why is Nile now employing a "back door" methodology to attack the divinity of Christ?

Tears_of_joy,

Tears_of_joy wrote:

If you use this same sort of reasoning on the verses quoted to show that Jesus is divine, you will find them lacking as well.

I didn't get, what you want to say here.

The arguments being used to show that Jesus was divine is the same sort of argument I was using to show He wasn't God. My argument was flawed, seeing as there are passages saying that God is tempted, so it is not a cut and dry simple argument. The same is true most trinitarian arguments.

My argument went like this:

God cannot be tempted.
Jesus was tempted.
Therefore Jesus is not God.

If the first point can be shown wrong, then the conclusion does not follow. That's what happened to my argument, I was shown that it is reasonable to hold that God can be tempted in a sense, the same sense in which Jesus was tempted. All that was needed was a counterexample, "Look, here it says God was tempted..."

Lets look at a trinitarian argument:

Only God can forgive sins.
Jesus forgave sins.
Therefore Jesus is God.

But...Jesus gave the disciples authority to forgive sin. So the premise fails, so the conclusions does not follow.

Here's another:

Only God is called savior.
Jesus is called savior.
Therefore Jesus is God.

But...judges and kings are called saviors in the OT. So the premise fails, so the conclusion does not follow.

One more:

Only God worshiped.
Jesus is worshiped.
Jesus is God.

If we go strictly by the word "worship" then the premise fails. God commands men to worship the king in the OT and Jesus tells the saints they will be worshiped in Revelation. Kings are worshiped in the OT. "That's a different kind of worship!" Yes, it is...but the premise still fails. To make this argument work, you would need to say:

Only God is worshiped as God.
Jesus is worshiped as God.
Therefore Jesus is God.

The only problem is, Jesus is not worshiped as God anyone in the Bible. "But He is called God and worshiped." Let me give one more example argument which will clear this up:

Only God is called Elohim (theos).
Jesus is called Elohim (theos).
Therefore Jesus is God.

But...Moses is called Elohim, Solomon is called Elohim, false gods are called Elohim, etc. Look at the definition of Elohim and you will see that "Almighty God" is not the only usage of the word. So the premise fails, so the conclusion does not follow.

One last one:

God does not give glory to anyone but Himself.
Jesus was given glory from God.
Therefore Jesus is God.

This is a good argument...except that Jesus says He will give His glory to us. Following this argument, we would have to conclude that we will be God also! So the premise fails (because God gives glory to us, and we are not God), so the conclusion does not follow.

I have not attempted to show here that Jesus is not God, but to show that these are not good arguments as to why He is God.

I hope that answers your question.

Nile, have you ever worshiped Jesus as God in your life? (Before the time you decided to deny him as God)

Yes, I did

Nile

"Only God is worshiped as God.
Jesus is worshiped as God.
Therefore Jesus is God.

The only problem is, Jesus is not worshiped as God anyone in the Bible."-- Nile

" Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side and be not faithless but believing. v28 and thomas answered and said unto him MY Lord and MY GOD."
you would do good to follow the same brother.
love
andy

Also when Philip says to Jesus, "show us the Father and it suffices us." To which Christ replies, "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

Nile read, 1 corinthians 10:9 then read numbers 21:5-9 please compare
love
andy

Nile wrote:
My argument went like this:

God cannot be tempted.
Jesus was tempted.
Therefore Jesus is not God.

If the first point can be shown wrong, then the conclusion does not follow. That's what happened to my argument, I was shown that it is reasonable to hold that God can be tempted in a sense, the same sense in which Jesus was tempted. All that was needed was a counterexample, "Look, here it says God was tempted..."

Only God can forgive sins.
Jesus forgave sins.
Therefore Jesus is God.

But...Jesus gave the disciples authority to forgive sin. So the premise fails, so the conclusions does not follow.

Only God is called savior.
Jesus is called savior.
Therefore Jesus is God.

But...judges and kings are called saviors in the OT. So the premise fails, so the conclusion does not follow.

[b]Rev 17:14[/b] [color=990000]These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for [b]He is Lord of lords, and King of kings[/b]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.[/color]
[b]Rev 19:11[/b] [color=990000]And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon it was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness [b]He does judge[/b] and make war.[/color]

Only God worshiped.
Jesus is worshiped.
Jesus is God.

If we go strictly by the word "worship" then the premise fails. God commands men to worship the king in the OT and Jesus tells the saints they will be worshiped in Revelation. Kings are worshiped in the OT. "That's a different kind of worship!" Yes, it is...but the premise still fails. To make this argument work, you would need to say:

[b]Rev 5:12[/b] [color=990000]Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.[/color]

[b]Eph 1:20-23[/b] Which he performed in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come:
:22 And has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
:23 [color=990000]Which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all.[/color]

[b]Hebrews 9:14[/b] [color=990000]how much rather shall the blood of Christ, Who, through [i]His[/i] eternal spirit offers Himself flawless to God, be cleansing your conscience from dead works to be offering divine service to the living and true God?[/color]
No mere man can do this.
Furthermore, Who els can create other than God Himself?
[b]Eph 3:9b[/b][color=990000]...God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:[/color]
[b]Col 1:15-17[/b] (Jesus) [color=990000]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:
[b]:16[/b] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[b]:17[/b] And he is before all things, and by him all things are held together.[/color]

Nile - try answering ALL the others who posted Scriptures to you.

Second, my original question on this thread was answered. This was not intended to be a generic trinity thread, so I feel no need to talk about it. If you want to discuss something else, make a new thread and I might post.

We could also carry the other posts that were posted from the other thread unto this one.
Since wildbranch is a female - it should be your place to answer all the ones on your other thread.

No one has opted to do so.

Sincerely,
Nile

1Tim 3:16 "God was manifested in the flesh"...

Guys, I would caution you against using this text in support of your argument. It is well documented and attested to, even among Trinitarian scholars, that this text has been
redacted by the Roman Church *cough* '[i]editorial processing[/i]'.
The facts also reveal that this version of the text was completely unknown to the early Christians.

Here follows a list of the manuscripts and what they [b]do[/b] say.

Manuscript Common Name Date Text Comments
B Codex Vaticanus ca. 300 Does not contain 1 Timothy Alexandrian.
Aleph Codex Sinaiticus ca. 350 [b]who[/b] was manifest in flesh Alexandrian.
Al Codex Alexandrinus ca. 450 [b]who[/b] was manifest in flesh Scrivener attests to theos.
C Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus ca. 450 [b]who[/b] was manifest in flesh
D Codex Claromontanus ca. 550 [b]which[/b] was manifest in flesh
Peshitta
Coptic
Ethiopic
Sahidic [b]which[/b] was manifest in flesh
Gothic [b]which[/b] was manifest in flesh

Thus we see that none of the extant early manuscripts contain the word "God" in this verse....

A correct reading is: [b]Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: Who (which/or He) was manifested in the flesh, vindicated/justified by in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory[/b]. (referring to Yeshua the Messiah)

Thanks
:-)

wildbranch wrote:
1Tim 3:16 "God was manifested in the flesh"...

...A correct reading is: [b]Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: Who (which/or He) was manifested in the flesh, vindicated/justified by in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory[/b]. (referring to Yeshua the Messiah)

The facts also reveal that this version of the text was completely unknown to the early Christians.

This is sheer speculation. Many of us here on Sermonindex reject this assertion outright. I would recommend a review of the thread [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3602&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Which Version?[/url]

Hey

This is just another thread promoting blasphemy as was the other thread you started Nile. I will pray for both you Nile and Wild branch to repent. In denying Jesus is Lord you both are in sin, pure and simple. I used to find these forums a place to come to read posts from other brothers and sisters that would point me toward Jesus but sadly it would seem that more and more are like these kinds of threads and only seek to tear down our Lord, and Savior!

Saved by Jesus Christ our Lord!
Bethany

Nile, which arguments of yours have not been answered? Best I can tell, all of yours have been answered, but you then throw in another argument. It is you who is ignoring us, not the other way around.

Wildbranch, I think you need to do a little more studying of the manuscripts and "scholars". If this verse was a "Roman Church editorial", why is it not in the vulgate? Furthermore, the Byzantine manuscripts support "Theos" in this verse, and only a few Alexandrian texts are questionable. Wescott and Hort "decided" that the text said "Hos" and and not "Theos", but the two are extremely similar looking and the scholars that look at all the texts and not just the few Alexandrian ones you mentioned believe the original said "Theos" and that can even be argued using the texts you posted.

Furthermore...let's play your game (well, this most definitely NOT a game) for a minute and say "who was manifest in the flesh." What does that mean? Christ was born and existed? Paul could not possibly have meant that. EVERYONE knew that Christ existed...the question is, do you believe He was MANIFEST? Which you and Nile clearly do not.

What gets me with these Italian guys suddenly calling God YHWH and Yeshua, is if they knew anything about Judaism, they would know that Messiah had to be God and that is why the Pharisees wanted HIM dead - because He claimed to be Messiah - equal to God by calling Himself the son of David or Son of God.

There is always a temptation when trying to reach the Jews of taking on too many ideas that they hold dear. One has to know that Rabbinic Judaism is AntiChrist from the word go. It is a religion specifically designed to lock Christ out of their religion. I wish to recommend looking at these articles that deal with the subject:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=13627]Atheism Among The Jews[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1957]Rabbi Akiba's False Messiah[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1958]Talmudic Revisionism And The Struggle For Authority[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1954]The Birkat Ha Minim[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1962]The Silencing of The Prophetic[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1963]Am- Ha - Eretz[/url]

Dear Matt (Nile), please hear what is on my heart to share with you.

I am afraid and almost tremble while I am writing you, because I had similar experience with a man who is very dear to my heart, and I know how painful it is.

Presently I am more afraid about your attitude toward the subject, than the very subject, though this is subject is the most crucial one of our faith, it is a matter of [u]life and death[/u], nothing more, nothing less.

I tremble over these words that you shared:

[b]Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced.[/b] I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.

So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.

Yes that is correct, I do not believe Jesus was Creator God come in the flesh.

You have been here (on SI) many months, you have participate in the discussions, you have met some godly men who have walked with the Lord many years. And for about few weeks, reading articles from unknown men with unknown fruits, you decided to deny the Lord Jesus Christ as God.
Now, what I am most afraid is not your doubts, because the Lord is faithful to reveal the truth to all His children, but from the attitude that you came at once, and declared "..therefore, Jesus is not God." instead, to come and ask...

"Brethren, I read this and this, there are doubts in my heart, could you help me what it means, could you bear with me in these times of doubts, what the Lord is saying to your heart"

I am sure that many, literally many would take time and share with you and pray with you, and search together. And of course, if you have at least a little trust in the brothers and sisters on this virtual community. It is not by accident that the Lord has brought you here, internet has 1000's forums.

And instead of that, you came with very wrong position, trying to demolish, the very core of the Christian faith and that is the person of Jesus Christ. Many, many have stumbled on that, because the word says that Jesus Christ is the corner stone on which many will stumble.

Nothing is more important than this - knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and God in your life, worthy of every praise and honor and worship and might.

Dear Mat, I suppose that there is some bitterness in your heart. This might be so dangerous. It can cost you so much that you cannot imagine now. Read all the answers and replies with a humble and searching heart. You must be honest first with yourself, this is a starting point. And with all of us. You don't have anything to hide. We are not here to compete who knows more from the Bible and who have bigger brain. You and we all are just poor fellows, who need the grace of God every moment, who need every moment to be humbled under the mighty hand of God, so one day in His time, He will exalt those have humbled.

Mat, every saint have moments of confusion, doubts and struggling times. That's why we are part of His body. We cannot go on without each other. I mean firstly, our local fellowship of believers. The Lord has made an order, how His organism should function,

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For [b]the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith,[/b] and of the [b]knowledge of the Son of God,[/b] unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 [u]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [/u]
Eph 4:15 [b]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [/b]
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Dear Matt, I don't know do you have as a believer, local fellowship with teacher and pastor, and someone who is "watching for your soul," (Heb. 13:17) or you are are spiritual orphan, as many brothers and sisters around the world, which was by no means God's will for His children.

His will was to be a body, family, with responsibilities to one another. We have need one another, the Lord has made us so.

Heb 3:13 [b]But exhort one another daily,[/b] while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Daily.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: [b]and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.[/b]

I am sure that many could and will bear with you here, but you need an humble heart (the most important) and teachable character, you are too young, and this is too important (the most important), there are years ahead that Lord Jesus can show His power through you.
Read carefully all responds to the other brothers and sisters, ask their question, if you don't know the answers, that's not shameful, and let us together continue to search?

What is God saying to your heart? Could you hear His voice right now? Could we together, again lay on our faces and worship the Lord Jesus? Will he reproach us? Did He reproached the humbled souls who felt on their faces before him?

Don't give up Matt! Seek revelation from God!

[b]1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; [/b]

I'm waiting for response, there is much more to be said about the subject, just open your heart Matt, we will search together. There is so much more.

I tremble over these words that you shared:

Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced. I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.

So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.

Yes that is correct, I do not believe Jesus was Creator God come in the flesh.

Again, as I mentioned in an earlier post, this is the trouble we will land ourselves in when we substitute a glorified version of repentance for genuine regeneration. There has been enough proof laid out for the Trinity and deity of Christ to suffice an early Church counsel meeting in these couple of threads and yet in the space of two or weeks a man would cast off their belief in the divinity of Christ? Something is seriously amiss here. These are subjects that men pondered for long periods of time- even years before coming to any real conclusions. Two weeks? Two weeks?

(Ephesians 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

If Christ be a mortal man then we are all yet in our sins.

BeYeDoers---------quote: "Wildbranch, I think you need to do a little more studying of the manuscripts and "scholars". If this verse was a "Roman Church editorial", why is it not in the vulgate".

The Byzantine manuscripts are also Roman in origin, coming from the Byzantine Empire which Constantine established when he moved the capital of the Roman Empire (Rome), to Constantinople (Istanbul in Turkey, today). The rulers in Constantinope themselves continued the use of the term "Roman," and their subjects were referred to as Rhomaioi, or Romans.

That is why I include them in my posting.

HeReigns---------quote: "What gets me with these Italian guys suddenly calling God YHWH and Yeshua, is if they knew anything about Judaism, they would know that Messiah had to be God ....The "Jews" knew Messiah would be GOD.

"Italian guys"? It would be great if "Italian guys" would use the proper scriptural names for God and for the Messiah, but sadly most do not, and in fact tend to recoil at the usage.

If the "Italian guys" knew anything about Judaism they would definitely know that Messiah was not YHWH, and was never expected to be YHWH in the flesh, a man who could be tempted to worship Satan and die. (Even the "B.C" crowd).

I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.

I'm sorry, but there is not enough time in two weeks or even two months to even do justice to the issues involved- much less come to any real conclusions. I surely hope your friends did not fall into the same apostacy? Let's set out a few more passages to compare in case they were missed:

(Micah 5:2) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; [u]whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting[/u].

(Habakkuk 1:12) Art [u]thou[/u] not from everlasting, O [u]LORD[/u] my [u]God[/u], mine Holy One? we shall not die. O [u]LORD[/u], thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O [u]mighty God[/u], thou hast established them for correction.

Micah 5:2 is fulfilled in Matthew 2:5,6.

(Zechariah 12:8-11) In that day shall the [u]LORD[/u] defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that [u]I[/u] will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And [u]I[/u] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: [i]and they shall look upon [u]me[/u] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for [u]him[/u], as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for [u]him[/u], as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

(John 19:37) And again another scripture saith, [u]They shall look on him whom they pierced[/u].

Zech. 12:1 declares the speaker to be the LORD (Jehovah) that it is said they shall look upon [u]ME[/u] whom they have pierced.
:

(Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, [u]The mighty God[/u], The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"Mighty God" is found in many places in the Old Testament referring to God Almighty (Deut 10:17, Neh 9:32, Isaiah 10:21, Jer. 32:18)

Psa 50:1 [u]The mighty God[/u], even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto [u]the mighty God[/u].

Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: [u]the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,[/u]

"Italian guys"? It would be great if "Italian guys" would use the proper scriptural names for God and for the Messiah, but sadly most do not, and in fact tend to recoil at the usage.

Do you know of a single Greek text that uses Yeshua to describe Jesus?

If the "Italian guys" knew anything about Judaism they would definitely know that Messiah was not YHWH, and was never expected to be YHWH in the flesh, a man who could be tempted to worship Satan and die. (Even the "B.C" crowd).

The Jews in the first century had their minds in many places other than the workings of their True Messiah. If they had known what they were supposed to be looking for they would not have rejected Him. That is why Bar Kochba fit their mold so well. They rejected Christ as He refused to overthrow Rome and reestablish Israel. That was all they really cared about. They were exalted in the pride of their own righteousness and felt no need- only insult at the notion that one would die for them. Call your religion what you will, but it is definitely not Christianity.

That is why I include them in my posting.

Yet you would have us believe that the majority of Byzantine manuscript evidence negates the passage.

Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced. I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.

So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.

Yes that is correct, I do not believe Jesus was Creator God come in the flesh.

So, to say that We must rely on what is revealed, we must first know the Author of what is being read by prayer, not just by text only.
Most people get their revelation purely on text without knowing who HE is in prayer first.
One must first know who He is in prayer in order to know who He is in the Text.

I will liken prayer to being with Jusue in this next verse:
[b]Act 4:13[/b] [color=990000]Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ordinary men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.[/color]

Why do you think that unlearned and ordinary men such as fishermen would understand the Scriptures better than Caiaphas, John, Alexander, and as many as were of the high priestly family?(Acts 4:6)
Why do you think that a common man as Stephen could come against the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians and they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke(Act 6:9-10).

All this is because of Jesus. When we pray, we will get a fuller understanding of what the Author is saying. This "prayer-induced-understanding"(as one called it) does not go against Scripture, but it brings it to life.

Do you divorce the Word of God from prayer? Do you not know that the Word of God and prayer go hand in hand? How do you think God answers your thoughts in prayer accept by His word.

[b]2Corinth 3:13-16[/b] color=990000]And not as "Moses, who put a veil over his face," for the sons of Israel not to gaze at the end of the thing being done away.
[b]:14[/b] But their thoughts were hardened, for until the present time the same veil remains on the reading of the Old Covenant, not being unveiled, that it is being done away in Christ.
[b]:15[/b] But until today, when Moses is being read, a veil lies on their heart.
[b]:16[/b] But whenever the heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.[/color]

Why do you think that a Pharisee like Saul/Paul only really understood the Scriptures utill he was saved?
Even Scripture itself teaches that one should turn to the Lord(Jesus) when reading His Word. I am not saying that Christians have the veil over their hearts, but in a sense, their heart will not have the same clarity in the Word if one is not reading prayerfully.

How many today read the Scriptures only to gather ammo for their theology and not to learn of HIM?
If they are not reading for the purpose of gathering ammo, then they are only being careful to stay within the concepts of their theology.
Therefore, this "prayer-induced-understanding" is a concept that all should exersise. I am not saying that I know all, but I am saying that one should seek the Author of what they are reading before making a theology or a doctrine. Furthermore, one must not read the bible only for the reason of information, but for the sole purpose of knowing Him better. And one must not read the bible without prayer, asking for His wisdom.

Last of all, I would ask you and others falling into this harassy, to actualy ask God the real identity of JESUS, or is it jesus.

RobertW wrote:
...Let's set out a few more passages to compare in case they were missed:

(Micah 5:2) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; [u]whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting[/u].

(Habakkuk 1:12) Art [u]thou[/u] not from everlasting, O [u]LORD[/u] my [u]God[/u], mine Holy One? we shall not die. O [u]LORD[/u], thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O [u]mighty God[/u], thou hast established them for correction.

Micah 5:2 is fulfilled in Matthew 2:5,6.

(Zechariah 12:8-11) In that day shall the [u]LORD[/u] defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that [u]I[/u] will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And [u]I[/u] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: [i]and they shall look upon [u]me[/u] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for [u]him[/u], as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for [u]him[/u], as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

(John 19:37) And again another scripture saith, [u]They shall look on him whom they pierced[/u].

Zech. 12:1 declares the speaker to be the LORD (Jehovah) that it is said they shall look upon [u]ME[/u] whom they have pierced.
:

(Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, [u]The mighty God[/u], The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"Mighty God" is found in many places in the Old Testament referring to God Almighty (Deut 10:17, Neh 9:32, Isaiah 10:21, Jer. 32:18)

Psa 50:1 [u]The mighty God[/u], even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto [u]the mighty God[/u].

Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: [u]the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,[/u]

[u][b]2 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Destructive Doctrines[/b]

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

[u][b]Jude 1:3-5 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Contend for the Faith[/b]

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[b]Old and New Apostates[/b]

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Christiaan

He Reigns----------------quote: "Edit. For wildbranch - "Our Blessed Hope" - Our Savior - "the first and the last."

Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory (Footnote: 1) of the great God and our Saviour Yeshua the Messiah"
Footnote: (1) Or of our great God and Saviour )

Our "Blessed Hope" is therefore the [b]return of Yeshua the Messiah[/b] to earth, to establish the Kingdom of His Father.

The Apostle Paul was very clear when speaking of the Father and the Son:

2 Corinthians 1:3. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

and Peter: 1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Acts 5:30. "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree."

"Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus, as He promised." Acts 13:23
Acts 13: 38-37: " But [b]God raised him[/b] from the dead: And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath [b]raised up Jesus again[/b]; as it is also written in the second psalm, [u]Thou art my Son, [b]this day[/b] have I begotten thee[/u]. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: [b]But he, whom God raised[/b] again, saw no corruption. "

Acts 13:38: "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this MAN is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins"

Wildbranch,

When do you believe that the "idea" of Christ being divine was 1st posited?

Miccah------------quote: "ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Here Peter already sees the beginnings of two deceptive teachings; that of abusing the grace of God by licentious, lawless behaviour, contrary to, and rejecting the commandments of God, and those who would later deny the Lord God (YHWH) and the Lord Jesus Christ (Yeshua the Anointed One).

We see later how those warnings of Peter were ignored, and how these two heresies took a hold of the church as more and more former pagan gentiles entered in. The next few centuries of the 'church' are a bloody, sordid tale of power hungry individuals, rife with all manner of excesses and vile behaviour. Constantine eventually brought some order to the mess by instating the first of many Church Councils, where, in this [i]milieu[/i], all doctrines were formulated and sworn in as "dogma"......with warnings that anyone not adhering to them would be 'anathema'....which could mean exile, persecution or loss of life. :cry:

Wildbranch...would you be kind enough to answer my query?

;-)

Yes, thank you Scribe.

Scribe asked me--------------quote: "Wildbranch, When do you believe that the "idea" of Christ being divine was 1st posited?

Here follows my reply.
WARNING: The positions held by me are not those of the "SermonIndex" community. I entered into the discussion in support of one of the regular posters, "Nile", who was defending (from what I can tell), a similar position to mine. I post this in answer to a question: (quotes from books are copy/pasted).

The apostle Paul warned the Greek Colossian city, "Beware lest any man cheat you through philosophy and vain deceit. . .(Colossians 2:8)"

What kind of philosophy was Paul warning about? Since Paul was addressing a Greek city, he must have been warning about the entrance of Greek Philosophical Thought. The Platonic fathers, also known as Greek Apologists were the first to introduce trinitarian thought into Christianity.

Church historian Adolf Harnack states that the Church Fathers which developed the Nicene Creed were Platonists who appealed to Plato in support of the trinity: Volume 4. Page 88: "Science concluded on alliance with the Nicene Creed; that was a condition of the triumph of orthodoxy. . . These men took their stand on the general theory of the universe which was accepted by the science of the time; they were Platonists, and they once more naively appealed to Plato in support even of their doctrine of the trinity."

Edward Gibbons's History of Christianity notes: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism". The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."
Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity."

H. P. Blavatsky in Isis Unveiled (pages 45,46), reveals that the Trinity Dogma originated from Babylon:
"We find it northeast of the Indus; and tracing it to Asia Minor and Europe, recognize it among every people who had anything like an established religion. It was taught in the oldest Chaldaean, Egyptian, and Mithraitic schools. The Chaldaean Sun-god, Mithra, was called 'Triple,' and the trinitarian idea of the Chaldaeans was a doctrine of the Akkadians, who themselves belonged to a race which was the first to conceive a metaphysical trinity. According to Rawlinson, the Chaldaeans are a tribe of the Akkadians, who lived in Babylonia from the earliest of times."

In Revelation 17:1-5, the Bible gives ample warning to beware of the Apostasy which would emanate from Babylon:
". . . I will show you the judgment of the great whore that sits upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with fold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
The idea of a Trinity of three personal gods in one clearly [b]originated in ancient Babylon[/b]. It was from ancient Babylon that all Pagan Religions had their original source. When God dispersed the ancients at the tower of Babel, they settled throughout the world with their concept of a metaphysical trinity firmly entrenched. It was from this source that we have been infiltrated. Babylon is the Mother of all false religion.

Thank you.

PS. There is no instance in the NT where we are told to believe on a 'trinity' for salvation. In contrast, Paul clearly says in 1Tim 2:5: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time."

Yeshua our High Priest is forever mediating between His God and our God (YHWH) on our behalf, and it is by his perfect and obedient life of overcoming and vanquishing sin, that we can stand in his glorious merits and achievements and attain eternal life, through repentence and regeneration, thereafter following in the manner in which he walked. (obedient).

HalleluYah! The kingdom of this world is soon to become the kingdom of our Lord (YHWH) and His Christ (Anointed one)!!!

Adolf Harnack is not a very good source to quote, seeing as how he subscribed to German Rationalism and Higher Critical Theory.

Adolf von Harnack (May 7, 1851–June 10, 1930), was a German theologian and prominent church historian. He produced many religious publications from 1873-1912. Harnack traced the influence of Hellenistic philosophy on early Christian writing and called on Christians to question the authenticity of doctrines that arose in the early Christian church. He rejected the gospel of John in favor of the synoptic gospels, criticized the Apostles' Creed, and promoted the social gospel.

Harnack also questioned the authenticity of the veracity of scripture, doubting its verbal plenary inspiration. He seemed also to subscribe to philosophical naturalism as he doubted the miracles performed by Christ.

Sorry Wildbranch... we must continue this dialogue later, I must get ready for church. Thank you for your response. ;-)

Scribe said------------ "Adolf Harnack is not a very good source to quote, seeing as how he subscribed to German Rationalism and Higher Critical Theory."

Yes, I can understand how one would feel led to reject his observations of history, based on his own personal beliefs and life. His conclusions are the same as other historians though.

I have the same feeling about those who have formulated the dogma of the church and insisted that all believe such. Their lives and the resulting testimony of their institution leave one aghast at such a confusing mixture of truth and lie, a true 'babel'.

One has to question why they decided to outlaw the keeping of the Sabbath. From the website catholic.com we read: "Augustine: "Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian."

The Council of Laodicea was formulated in 364 A.D. to address such issues. Canon XXIX decrees: CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day (Sunday); and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. The Sabbath was thus changed to Sunday. (He shall seek to change the times and the seasons, says the book of Daniel).

Later this church felt it necessary to initiate Crusades, Inquisitions, Pogroms, etc. Even Luther in his final frustration and fury with the Jews published such works of hatred, that the Germans did not find it difficult to turn a blind eye to the holocaust.

The first of all commandments is "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is One." Those nine words have been cried out by Jews for centuries as they were about to be slaughtered by Christian inquisitors in Spain, crusaders in the Holy Land, religious fanatic neighbors in Poland, Cossacks in Russia and concentration camp Nazi guards all over the rest of Europe during the Holocaust.

The origins of our institutional church system stem from the most bloody doctrinal battles imaginable about 1700 years ago in the city of Nicea in present Turkey. In those early days, lofty disputes were settled by anathematizing, excommunicating, banishment, swords, clubs, knives, the flaying alive of fellow humans and burning at the stake .

Then there was John Calvin who had Michael Servatus burned at the stake for opposing the church on the trinity issue.

Those who denied the trinity were persecuted throughout Europe, and between 1548 and 1612 we find few anti-Trinitarians, most of whom were either executed or forced to recant. Those burned included George van Parris. (1551), Flemish surgeon; Patrick Pakingham (1555), fellmonger; Matthew Hamont (1579), ploughwright; John Lewes (1583); Peter Cole (1587), tanner; Francis Kett (1589), physician and author; Bartholomew Legate (1612), cloth-dealer, last of the Smithfield victims; and the twice-burned fanatic Edward Wightman (1612). In all these cases the anti-Trinitarian sentiments seem to have come from Holland; the last two executions followed the dedication to James I of the Latin version of the Racovian Catechism (1609). (Wikipedia)

The Toleration Act was amended (1779) by substituting belief in Scripture for belief in the Anglican (doctrinal) articles. In 1813 the penal acts against deniers of the Trinity were repealed. (thankfully)

This is an astonishing trend in the church. Like Robert has said, many younger saints are customizing their own gospel...with hardly more seriousness then mixing their own flavor of coffee at Starbucks.

Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced.

Really Nile...a week of reading was all it took to become convinced to deny a core tenet of your faith? Can you ever trust yourself again for being so unstable? Tears for Joy sobriety expresses well a serious concern. You are young...and there are greater challenges ahead to your faith then just a week's worth of pursuasive arguments in books.

Brother I find double-mindedness is an unfortunate pitfall to minds who are naturally quite bright and sensitive to other points of view. Especially on college campuses, where the mind is bombarded with articulate contrarian arguments constantly...some students experiment with drugs, some with politics, and some with philosophy and theology.

Yet some issues are so important that it is simply sophmorish to assume hasty positions and then dig our heels in. Yet, there are some saints who establish this restless pattern early in life...they spend thier days being tossed about by every doctrine that floats down the pike. They are earnest, always searching but never coming to any firm conclusions.

Young men and women of the faith...consider that many older saints have already been through the very same issues you are facing. Indeed, what seems modern is also ancient. In universities today, there is far too much maverick self-styled revisionism going on in history, economics, politics,...and Christian theology. The laziest intellectual trend today in the Church is to blame every doctrine or tradition we don't like on Constantine. Really this practice is quite a bore...we attribute more power and influence in our lives to a long dead king then to the risen Jesus himself! Eventually this maverick trend will have to level off...and people will have to accept responsibility for their own beliefs and character intead of laying all of their personal controversies at the feet of a long dead man.

Please Nile, consider taking a healthy rest from this entire controversy...resist cementing yourself so hastily into a position on an issue that will impact your faith and your character; don't overcook the roast on the outside before it's properly cooked on the inside.

MC

The saddest thing about this thread is that no one, besides Nile and myself, has stood up to say that our God, YHWH, [b]cannot be tempted by evil[/b]-----------tempted to sin through enticement and lust. The thread had the question: "Can God be tempted to worship Satan?" Rather than unequivicably refuting such a blasphemous claim, people have actually insisted that He can.

Speaking of Yeshua, the scripture says:
Mark 1:12-13 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mt 4:1-10 Then was Yeshua led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Would someone within the camp of those who claim Yeshua is YHWH please explain how YHWH (the Eternal God of the Universe), who cannot be tempted with evil, was often tempted with evil?

The Holy Scriptures repeatedly describe the absolute, incomprehensible, unequalled perfection of the Eternal Father and that He is totally immune from temptation to do evil.

James 1:13 [b]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:[/b]

page 1. i answered this.

Some things, like defending the trinity, generally I would not attempt

Not to nit-pick here...but there is no need for us to defend the trinity; scripture reveals this reality quite plainly. This is not a transcendental secret that is whispered in our ear by the Holy Spirit, but was spoken, written, and printed in quite comprehensible language. Scriptures claims about Jesus, and Jesus' claims about himself, were clear enough to have warranted his death even by people who resisted the Holy Spirit.

Just who became incarnate to the first century world, is a repeated Old Testament promise, and New Testament confirmation that went far beyond the claims of Moses for the Jews, beyond the claims of Mohammed for the muslims, and beyond the claim of Gautama for the Buddhists.

Isaiah 9..."For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called...The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father...

Micah 5:2 "But thou Bethlehem...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler of Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting...

Collossians 1 ...for by him all things were created...

God may even withhold revelation from you

I recognize the intended understanding offered here Dorcas...but to treat Jesus' Godhood as a secret identity only knowable from mystical revelation is contrary to the intention of presenting scripture in a written message for all mankind. The issue is literally black and white...God has not withheld revelation from anyone on this central truth. Let's not miss the camels here while waiting to see some gnats. The Gospel is captured and conveyed to mankind not in man's transcedental experience but by God's condecension in human language. This may not be what guru's and sages expect, but it works quite well with simpletons and children.

Now we might agree that faith in what is plainly written might indeed be a gift from the Holy Spirit...but the Spirit's words upon the pages are plain enough even if the faith to believe them is lacking.

Wildbranch, this entire question of how could Jesus be tempted if we was also God, is hardly a stumper. Really sir, haven't you been paying attention to scripture? Does not Phillipians 2:6-8 make it clear that the incarnate Jesus was as much a man as he was God? We are told with almost elementary simplicity that 1)Jesus was in the form of God, 2) Jesus is equal with God, and 3) Jesus walked on Earth in the likeness of a man.

Look further into Isaiah 7:14. Behold a virgin shall concieve, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Here the twofold nature of the Messiah is indicated...he is to be born of a woman clearly not as some kind of paranormal being but as a normal human being...yet he is is also born as Immanuel which when interpreted is more then God with us, but one of us. Deny either aspect of this son born of a virgin and you deny this scripture.

Now how this works might indeed seem incomprehensible to you, Nile, and myself, but truth is not referenced by the conprehension of man but by every word that comes from God. If we agree that scripture indeed conveys those Words, the issue of just who was incarnate is hardly up for debate just because we might lack the faith to accept these words.

MC

Brethren
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro wildbranch asked:

The saddest thing about this thread is that no one, besides Nile and myself, has stood up to say that our God, YHWH, cannot be tempted by evil-----------tempted to sin through enticement and lust. The thread had the question: "Can God be tempted to worship Satan?" Rather than unequivicably refuting such a blasphemous claim, people have actually insisted that He can.

based on this scripture:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

this scripture continues on to say this:

[i][b][color=0000FF]14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, 15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.[/color][/b][/i]

God can't be tempted in the sense that He would sin because no such desire is to be found in Him which would lead Him astray and lead to sin. however that doesn't mean the same as tempting in the sense of bringing such an idea to Him, that is the idea to sin. Clearly the enemy tempted Jesus in the sense that he presented our Lord with the opportunity to worship him and be rewarded for it. However because Jesus had no such wicked desire in Him because Jesus is God, there was nothing for that idea to latch onto that it could come to fruition. the word tempt itself doesn't mean to act on something only but also to present an idea which can be acted on.

now to bros Nile and Wildbranch i ask this:
this scripture is from Psalm 78:

[b]54 And He bringeth them in unto the border of His sanctuary, This mountain His right hand had got, 55 And casteth out nations from before them, And causeth them to fall in the line of inheritance, And causeth the tribes of Israel to dwell in their tents,[/b][u][b][color=0000FF]56 And they tempt and provoke God Most High, And His testimonies have not kept. [/color][/b][/u]

what does the underlined mean then?

what of this in Exodus 17?

[b][color=0000FF]Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?[/color][/b]

Deuteronmy 6:16?

[b][color=0000FF]15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. 16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.[/color][/b]

there are some more O.T. examples of God being tempted which i could list and some also in the N.T. like Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 and another incident in Acts 15.

it seems to me the sense of the word tempt as used in James is different in that it not only speaks of the presentation of the idea to act upon but also following through with the idea presented. in that sense God is tempted in the sense that an idea is presented to Him to act on however God doesn't follow through on such because He has no such desire. Jesus also didn't follow through with such presentations when Satan tempted Him because He being One with His Father also had no such desire. God can't be made to do anything contrary to His desire and that's what James is saying, we because of the nature of sin however have an inherent desire to sin.

The Holy Scriptures repeatedly describe the absolute, incomprehensible, unequalled perfection of the Eternal Father and that He is totally immune from temptation to do evil.

He is immune to doing evil but that didn't stop Israel from trying to make Him act rashly or against His will which is what evil is, anything contrary to the will of God. this continues daily.

any spirit, idea, theology, philosophy which seeks to make Christ out to be anything less than God or diminish Him is of the devil. any person who would propose such as you have has been influenced by the enemy in that matter and unless God moves, you will not be loosed from those chains. You and bro Nile both tempt God even now with the questioning of Christ as being God. Brothers do not tempt God so. He will not act rashly or do evil but should He deal with you out of His Justice, you would be as Ananias and Sapphira, dead in an instant. don't tempt Him to do that because as God He retains that option and the Divine Right to excercise it.Let us rather appeal to His Mercy which Endures and out of which we are Saved.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Wildbranche's: Would someone within the camp of those who claim Yeshua is YHWH please explain how YHWH (the Eternal God of the Universe), who cannot be tempted with evil, was often tempted with evil?

The entire book of Hebrews was written particularly to believing Jews that were trying to sort this all out and in some cases were in danger of falling back into Judaism under persecution.

And I suppose we have already answered this and you have rejected our answer in your rejection of the hypostatic union. Perhaps I should ask you a question; [i]could a mere man have created the worlds and all that are contained therein?[/i]

(Colossians 1:16-17) For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

What a marvelous thing to believe Christ were merely a man! That a mere man created himself and the world he lived in!

Now how this works might indeed seem incomprehensible to you, Nile, and myself, but truth is not referenced by the conprehension of man but by every word that comes from God. If we agree that scripture indeed conveys those Words, the issue of just who was incarnate is hardly up for debate just because we might lack the faith to accept these words.

Imagine the wonder of the Word of God walking the earth in flesh and blood. Imagine the awesomeness of hearing an audible voice from heaven speaking, "This is my beloved Son, here ye Him." Imagine that the Pharisees just picked up stones to stone Christ as He stated, [i]"Before Abraham was- I AM."[/i] (John 8:58) These people had enough proof as Christ declared plainly who He was.

(John 19:7) The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Understand that they did not declare Him a blasphemer because He declared Himself to be a mere man.

(John 5:18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

You will notice that NEVER ONCE did He rebuke them or correct them for their accusation of Himself being equal with God. He did not consider equality with God as a thing to be grasped (Phil. 2); but He never denied it. Wildbranch and Nile may misunderstand what Jesus revealed Himself to be; but the Jews certainly did [u]not[/u].

(Luke 5:21) And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Having desired to take Him and crucify him they allied themselves with their enemies the Romans to take Him. Ask yourself if this is a mere mortal man:

(John 18:5, 6) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I AM. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I AM, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

As if to remove all doubt, this answer literally took these men off of their feet! I marvel at the hardness of heart. I marvel at the arrogance of men. To still declare Him a blasphemer worthy of death for making it plain that He was the Son of God and equal with God- with the dirt and grass stains still clinging to their backsides. If men could still after all of this deny Christ's deity and then set up an entire religion to shut Him out of the Jews lives- it is a light thing that they should contend with us. I mean, what will it take for some people to get the message? To be blown through a stone wall by His voice? Jesus answered it Himself:

(Luke 16:29-31) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The people rejected Moses and put a vail on his glowing face in fear of seeing the residue of God's glory. They molded a golden calf whilst the mountain was on fire. What a marvel! To behold the Fire of God Almighty and then cast a golden god. What again? To reject Jesus Christ of Nazareth and appoint Simon Bar Kochba.

Dear saints Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

this is by bro Zac Poonen:

The secret of a godly life lies in receiving revelation onthe fact that Jesus lived on earth in a flesh exactly likeours, was tempted through every lust that dwelt in thatflesh and yet never sinned even once in thought, word, deed,attitude or motive, or in any other way ( 1 Tim 3:16 and Heb4:15) Temptation is not the same as sin. James 1:14, 15 makes itclear that ever person is tempted through the lusts in hisown flesh. This was how Jesus was tempted too (Heb 4:15).But God’s Word says that those lusts have to conceive beforesin can be born. For this to take place, the mind has togive an assent to the temptation. Jesus’ mind neverassented even once to temptation. As a result the lusts inHis flesh never got an opportunity to conceive as sin in Hisheart. The lusts were put to death in the flesh itself. Hisheart was pure. Thus He made a new and living way throughHis flesh (Heb 10:20), in which we can walk today, becauseour flesh is the same as His was. The Bible teaches that Jesus received an education throughHis temptations in the days of His flesh. In eachtemptation He learnt obedience by suffering in the flesh andthus He was perfected [became complete] (Heb 5:7-9). ThusHe became a Forerunner for us to follow (Heb 6:20) Now He can sympathize with us in our struggle againsttemptation, because He has been through that struggleHimself having been made in all things exactly like us, Hisbrothers (Heb 2:17-18, 4::15; 12:2-4) The purity of Jesus was not something that He received on aplatter, but one that He acquired through battles. Butthose battles were not endless ones. Each lust in the fleshwas conquered – one after the other. Thus, over the periodof His lifetime, every single lust that dwelt in the fleshof man was completely overcome. The school of temptation is just like any other school. Weall have to start in the kindergarten class. Jesus alsostarted here. But He never spent more than the minimum timenecessary in each class. By the time He was 33 years old,when He died on the cross, he could say “It is finished”.Every single examination in the school had been passedsuccessfully. He had been made perfect. His education as aman was complete. (Heb 5:8, 9). For a person who is unfaithful in the kindergarten class oftemptation (e.g. sexual lust, anger, lying etc.,) to try andunderstand what temptations Jesus faced in the Ph D class isboth ridiculous and presumptuous. If you are faithfulyourself, you will understand (That is what Jesus said inJohn 7:17), If you are unfaithful in the moments oftemptation however, you will never understand, no matter howmany books you read or tapes you listen to. God’s secretsare not heard through tapes or from books but directly fromthe mouth of God Himself, through His Word.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

...unmistakably deposited in the word, is the tri-unity of the Godhead.

My quibble wasn't so much that I doubted your personal understanding Dorcas...The question posited in this thread is based largely on a false allegation that Jesus' diety is not clearly revealed in scipture...and I wanted to make sure your suggestion to seek revelation from the Holy Spirit wasn't misconstrued into an unintended agreement with such a defective view of scripture. The words on the pages of the bible are clear enough in telling us who Jesus is. I thought that your suggestion of seeking something more needed to be accompanied with the reminder that plenty has already been given! (As you know and stated quite well.)

Blessings,

MC

IRONMAN asked------------"now to bros Nile and Wildbranch i ask this:
this scripture is from Psalm 78: And they tempt and provoke God Most High, And His testimonies have not kept.
what does the underlined mean then?"
It means that they tempted and provoked God most High to punish them because they did not keep His laws and commandments.
It does not mean that the Most High God was 'tempted with EVIL', for He is unable to be tempted by evil.....unable to be lured and enticed to sin, so that is where the 100% God status of Yeshua breaks down.

IRONMAN also quoted Zac Poonen-----------------"Following Jesus who was Tempted as we are by Zac Poonen.....James 1:14, 15 makes itclear that ever person is tempted through the lusts in his own flesh. This was how Jesus was tempted too (Heb 4:15)..............In eachtemptation He learnt obedience by suffering in the flesh andthus He was perfected [became complete] (Heb 5:7-9). Thus He became a Forerunner for us to follow (Heb 6:20) Now He can sympathize with us in our struggle against temptation, because He has been through that struggle Himself having been made in all things exactly like us, His brothers (Heb 2:17-18, 4::15; 12:2-4)"

AMEN! I agree entirely with these words expressed by Zac Poonen. It is obvious though that these verses are not speaking about YHWH God.
Now most on this forum believe that Jesus is the creator of the Universe (RobertW-------"Perhaps I should ask you a question; could a mere man have created the worlds and all that are contained therein?") They then believe that the Creator of the Universe became one of His created beings, thus becoming a god-man, (100% God and 100%man) and then was tempted by evil.

**No one has rejected the notion that God has been tempted by Evil.**

To quote a wise man: "I prefer clarity to agreement".

So, for the record---------------

I worship a God (YHWH) who is UNABLE TO BE TEMPTED BY EVIL , and not a man, nor a son of man. I am able to enter into His Kingdom through the glorious accomplishment; the perfect life, death and resurrection of His chosen, begotten, and Anointed Son, Yehoshua the Messiah. Once having come to sincere repentence for sin and being regenerated through faith in the Son of God, I am given the Spirit (Ruach, Pneuma, Wind/Breathe of God) who then writes His laws and ways on my heart, enabling me to live in His ways with joyful anticipation of the return of Yeshua the Messiah to establish His Father's Kingdom out of Jerusalem. Let it be known to the 'powers that be' that my God is Immortal and far above all, the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! Let it be known too that His Son is now seated at His right hand, awaiting the day (of which Yehoshua himself does not know the date), when His Father will choose to send him back into our midst to complete His most wonderful plan!! Amen and Amen.

Others here worship a God who IS ABLE TO BE TEMPTED BY EVIL (the notion of this thread started by Nile). This God is 100% part of the creatures He created, in fact he is 100% man, while at the same time being YHWH. This God learned obedience by the things He suffered and was tempted in all things. This God then died. The creature killed the Creator (Jesus created the world). He was then resurrected by another part of Himself, and is seated at His right hand, waiting to return to the earth (or 'rapture' away those who believe in him), although that part of Him does not know when. This God also "did away with the Eternal Torah (teachings, laws and commandments) He had previously handed down to His people........in fact, this God rejects those who would sincerely follow in those ways, saying that they have now 'fallen from grace'. So this man-God changes and rejects His former guidelines given to His people, calling them 'weak and beggarly elements'.

OK-------------as I said----------------"I prefer clarity to agreeement".

Thank you very much.

Let it be known to the 'powers that be' that my God is Immortal and far above all, the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! Let it be known too that His Son is now seated at His right hand, awaiting the day (of which Yehoshua himself does not know the date), when His Father will choose to send him back into our midst to complete His most wonderful plan!! Amen and Amen.

So you believe that Jesus Christ (Yeshua) is just a man?

Once having come to sincere repentence for sin and being regenerated through faith in the Son of God, I am given the Spirit (Ruach, Pneuma, Wind/Breathe of God)

So you deny also that the Holy Spirit is God?

This God learned obedience by the things He suffered and was tempted in all things.

Do you view the book of Hebrews at canonical?

This God also "did away with the Eternal Torah (teachings, laws and commandments) He had previously handed down to His people........in fact, this God rejects those who would sincerely follow in those ways, saying that they have now 'fallen from grace'

So you also deny the inspiration of Galatians?

OK-------------as I said----------------"I prefer clarity to agreeement".

If and when they show you who they are- BELIEVE THEM!

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Thank you Robert for your insightful comments and questions! I do believe they are rhetorical, and are answered in my posts.

What can I say Robert, other than that you are a true warrior for your beliefs! Bless you for your earnest responses!:)

I am busy with school, but I will spend some time answering as many posts as I can. I'll be starting back at page 4, so it will take some time catch up. I will not be responding to posts simply claiming heresy, etc. I will do my best to answer everyone who has asked questions.

First off, thanks to wildbranch! I agree with her 100% as far as I know.

Nile

Thank you Robert for your insightful comments and questions! I do believe they are rhetorical, and are answered in my posts.

Sharon,

I don't think Robert was seeking patronization, and such does not put these opposing beliefs on equal ground though I and I'm sure he also appreciates your civility. This issue here is most serious; one of fellowship and even salvation.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.

Verse 14 And the Word BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us.

If the English is not clear enough, John was even more clear in the Greek that Jesus is YHWH.

Tears_of_joy

From page 4:

Dear Matt (Nile), please hear what is on my heart to share with you....

I'm waiting for response, there is much more to be said about the subject, just open your heart Matt, we will search together. There is so much more.

I'm not sure what else to say...I'm really not struggling with anything right now and I don't have doubts about who Yahweh is...

Nile

RobertW,

Again, as I mentioned in an earlier post, this is the trouble we will land ourselves in when we substitute a glorified version of repentance for genuine regeneration. There has been enough proof laid out for the Trinity and deity of Christ to suffice an early Church counsel meeting in these couple of threads and yet in the space of two or weeks a man would cast off their belief in the divinity of Christ? Something is seriously amiss here. These are subjects that men pondered for long periods of time- even years before coming to any real conclusions. Two weeks? Two weeks?

I'm sorry, but there is not enough time in two weeks or even two months to even do justice to the issues involved- much less come to any real conclusions. I surely hope your friends did not fall into the same apostacy?

If I had converted from Islam to Christianity in two weeks would you cry just the same?

As I said before, a house of cards falls easily, no matter how pretty it may look, how tall it is, or how many people like it.

If Christ be a mortal man then we are all yet in our sins.

This is the doctrine of men, not of God. There is no verse that says anything like this.
Quite the opposite, Jesus actually [b][u]DIED![/u][/b] proving His mortality.

Worship which ever god you wish, but my God can not die.

"Mighty God" is found in many places in the Old Testament referring to God Almighty (Deut 10:17, Neh 9:32, Isaiah 10:21, Jer. 32:18)

In Psalm 45 the King is called Elohim.
In Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 Moses is called Elohim.
In 1 Sam. 5:7, Jud. 11:24, 1 Kings 11:33, 1 Kings 11:33, 1 Kings 11:33, an individual false god is called Elohim. (indiviudal - not multiple.)

The plain fact of the matter is that trinitarins do not even agree with their own scholars. Everyone agrees that Elohim being plural does not mean God is plura. From blue letter Bible, the definition of Elohim:

1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God

Nile

Quite the opposite, Jesus actually DIED! proving His mortality.

There is no dillema here for the Christian. That Jesus can be at the same time both God and man John 1:1-14 is scriptural. I don't know how much more plain a 1st century writer could describe this than what John did in the opening of his gospel.

Of course Jesus died! He was a man, but this doesn't mean that He wasn't also God.

I ask you, Do you NOT worship Jesus then since He is not God?

sis Wildbranch
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

It does not mean that the Most High God was 'tempted with EVIL', for He is unable to be tempted by evil.....unable to be lured and enticed to sin, so that is where the 100% God status of Yeshua breaks down.

Evil is something against the Will of GOd. GOd isn't forced to do anything and so in that sense God isn't tempted however temptation is also the presentation of the idea to go against His will and God deals with that all the time. if you read the article by Zac Poonen, you will see that he says this:

[b]Temptation is not the same as sin. James 1:14, 15 makes itclear that ever person is tempted through the lusts in hisown flesh. This was how Jesus was tempted too (Heb 4:15).But God’s Word says that those lusts have to conceive beforesin can be born. For this to take place, the mind has togive an assent to the temptation. Jesus’ mind neverassented even once to temptation. As a result the lusts inHis flesh never got an opportunity to conceive as sin in Hisheart. The lusts were put to death in the flesh itself. Hisheart was pure. Thus He made a new and living way throughHis flesh (Heb 10:20), in which we can walk today, becauseour flesh is the same as His was.[/b]

now if Jesus isn't God, how can He be the way in which we are reconciled to God if only God is sufficient for this?

Others here worship a God who IS ABLE TO BE TEMPTED BY EVIL (the notion of this thread started by Nile).

yes He is in the sense that we can do or say things to try and make Him act rashly but He will not so while we tempt Him, He will not succumb to sin.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Joh 8:58

wildbranch, there are many notions you are forwarding here and it seems plain enough that you have no intention whatsoever of even considering that you might have things incorrect.

The way this question was posited in the first place is deceptive as it had the backbone of the previous thread tied to it. It is presented as a statement attached with an agenda set forth to 'prove' only one thing, that to your and Niles thinking Jesus is not who He said He is. Both of your arguments are not with the members of this forum but with Him.

[i]Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.[/i] Joh 10:36,37

The whole matter of equality that was presented and continued on by Robert has been not been addressed, what does 'equal' mean in the plainest of sense?

And if I may again forward this consideration;

[i] ... who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[/i] Php 2:6 ESV

Is it not therefore unbelief and even rebellion to turn around and say that you have now found a way around this and can [i]grasp[/i] that which is far beyond these feeble human minds?

The larger, more penetrating question above and beyond this cerebral contest is just what compulsion produces a desire to unseat Him who is master and Lord, who laid down His life and raised it up again, who accepted worship as a babe (Mat 2:11), who raised the dead, who posited this very question to challenge indeed if the one who asked it knew well what he was talking about;

[i]And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but [b]one[/b], that is, [b]God[/b]: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[/i] Mat 19:17

Measure your self up against this standard;

[i]Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?[/i] Mar 2:7

Are you therefore present day scribes come amongst us? Or again as accusers;

[i]The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?[/i] Joh 10:33-36

We could well be through the entire written account of God's Word and seemingly no further along if all this is is an agenda that you would both be forwarding without any other consideration, without accepting any challenge or re-considering.

wildbranch, your last two paragraphs are either confused or you are trying to be cute, if it is indeed the latter then you are denying your preference for clarity and are just being contentious, not helpful at all.

[i]And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; [b]I am from above[/b]: ye are of this world; [b]I am not of this world[/b]. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye [u]believe not that I am[/u] [b]he[/b],

ye shall die in your sins.

Then said they unto him,
[b]Who art thou?[/b]
And Jesus saith unto them,

Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.[/i] Joh 8:23-25

[i]And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, [b]Whom do men say that I am?[/b] And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets. And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, [b]Thou art the Christ[/b].[/i] Mar 8:27-29

This is a very serious and sobering matter, I pray you take it as such, indeed it is highly spiritual matter that may only be such that can be understood to be 'understood' spiritualy ... or in other words, accepted because He who gave it is trustworthy, that is if you find Him such.

Worship which ever god you wish, but my God can not die.

Read Hebrews.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[i]Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.[/i] Act 2:22-24

I beseech you brother, away with your doctrines and controversies, your positing of all this terminology over 'trinitarians' as something setup to tear down ... all this is so much rubbish. You may both be full of scholarly knowledge and will continue to argue this for the rest of your lives but you must be numb not to feel the grieving of the Holy Spirit. How is it that neither of you can see that your behavior and conduct, may I say your spirit, mirrors precisely that of the Pharisees and scribes of Jesus day in the words and questions they brought to Him. It is like watching the whole episode being replayed in real time ...

Put yourself to prayer and leave off this nonsense ...

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Cease resisting my brothers before you are swallowed up in all this. I beg you, leave off of this for a season ... please.

Crsschk said----------"And if I may again forward this consideration. ... who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, Php 2:6 ESV"

Philippians 2:6: "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

... who, being in the form (morphe - form OR nature, character, outward appearance) of God (theos ), did not consider it robbery to be equal (isos - like) with God (theos ).
Here Paul does not say that Messiah was God, but he was in the 'form/nature/character/outward appearance of God, because he is the perfect Son of God.

When Yeshua lived his life, he was the perfect image or likeness or visible form of our God, who is invisible. He showed "God's image" perfectly.
He was the quintessential human, the long-awaited one who lived out godlikeness that was his as God's image-bearer ("God's son"), but never sought to take God's place by attempting to rob his "Father" (creator) God of godhood that belongs only to his God. He never grasped at worship that was due to God alone. He allowed his perfect form and character to be marred by our sin, as he bore it on the cross.

These verses from Romans seem very pertinent:

For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of humans beings who suppress the truth due to unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them -- for God made it evident to them....For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God...but became futile in their speculations, and their foolish hearts became darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools -- [u]and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible [mortal] man[/u]....Therefore God gave them over to the sinful desires of their hearts...

FOR they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the [b]creature [in the form of corruptible (mortal) man] rather than the creator who is blessed forever[/b]....As they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind to things that are not proper, being filled with all manner of unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, malice, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, being gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know God's ordinance (righteous decree) -- judgment that those who do these things are worthy of death -- they not only do the same, but enjoy [give hearty approval to] those who practice them. (Rom 1:18-31)

I want to thank everyone posting on this topic. I know that this topic was started with intentions to destroy the Lord, but the opposite affect is taking place.

Through the back and forths here, my understanding of the trinity has increased more and more. I have always believed the truth, but reading it from other believers perspectives is truly a blessing. Keep contending for our Lord.

For the saints.

[u][b]2 Timothy 4:6-8[/b][/u]

[b]Paul’s Valedictory[/b]

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Christiaan

Nile's:
In my opinion, this is the weakest trinitarian argument. I myself used it in the past, but only out of ignorance.

In Psalm 45 the King is called Elohim.
In Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 Moses is called Elohim.
In 1 Sam. 5:7, Jud. 11:24, 1 Kings 11:33, 1 Kings 11:33, 1 Kings 11:33, an individual false god is called Elohim. (indiviudal - not multiple.)

Elohyim can be a generic term for God or [i]gods[/i]. What you cannot deny are the many passages I related from the Old Testament that identify Jesus Christ as YHWH.

Robert, what is this but an appeal to authority and to the opinion of the mass?

If I had converted from Islam to Christianity in two weeks would you cry just the same?

As I said before, a house of cards falls easily, no matter how pretty it may look, how tall it is, or how many people like it.

The deity of Jesus Christ is an anvil that hath worn out many of hammers. If a Muslim converted to Jesus Christ based upon [i]information[/i] and argument alone in the span of two weeks- I had questioned whether Islam was a sincerely held belief and would also expect he/she may be a Buddhist [i]next[/i] week.

John the Baptist announced who was coming; He understood that the way was not being prepared for a mere man.

(Isaiah 40:3) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the [u]LORD[/u], make straight in the desert a highway for our [u]God[/u].

Ananias and Sapphira when they lied to the Holy Spirit did not lie to men- they lied to God. We are leaving out a whole section of essential doctrine that Nile and Wildbranch deny; the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

When Yeshua lived his life, he was the perfect image or likeness or visible form of our God, who is invisible. He showed "God's image" perfectly.

This does not explain what would be clearly blasphemy if it were not in fact true; that Christ thought it not robbery to be equal with God. EQUAL with God? Clearly it would be blasphemy!

Moreover, the passage makes not sense for him to say that the Christ-like nature of God is nothing to be 'grasped'. If that were true, then the whole purpose of God's restoration of the image of God in man- should not for us either be a thing to be grasped. If that is true Jesus did not believe that having the nature of God is important and we need not concern ourselves with being partakers of the Divine Nature.

Hi RobertW...

John the Baptist announced who was coming; He understood that the way was not being prepared for a mere man.

(Isaiah 40:3) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Ananias and Sapphira when they lied to the Holy Spirit did not lie to men- they lied to God. We are leaving out a whole section of essential doctrine that Nile and Wildbranch deny; the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

:-)

Compton:

Really Nile...a week of reading was all it took to become convinced to deny a core tenet of your faith?

Yes really! That's all it took! Lies are easy to disprove! Do not be amazed at this. You would not marvel if I saw the error of Mormonism is a week.

Can you ever trust yourself again for being so unstable?

Unstable? How so? I have never studied something more fervently, anxiously, and prayerfully before in my life.

Young men and women of the faith...consider that many older saints have already been through the very same issues you are facing.

Please Nile, consider taking a healthy rest from this entire controversy...resist cementing yourself so hastily into a position on an issue that will impact your faith and your character; don't overcook the roast on the outside before it's properly cooked on the inside.

I come here to express what I have learned and be corrected if wrong. [u]Being corrected does not mean being told, "You're wrong. Go pray." It means showing me why my arguments, why my worldview fails to match up with the Bible and with reality.[/u] So far, I have not been shown this. Simply pointing to a Bible verse does nothing. No one seems to realize that I have investigated these verses. It is extremely unlikely I'm going to be blindsided by a passage I've never seen before (not that I know the whole Bible, but I have know the arguments for the trinity).

What we need is [b]reasonable discussion[/b]. I believe X because of Y. Saying, "X is wrong" does nothing. What would help is to say, "I understand that you believe X because of Y. But have you considered that Z disproves Y?" "Yes I have, and Z fails because of A." "Ah, but A is wrong because of B." Etc. Just a rudimentary example.

So, let me put forth something that can be destructo tested.

I believe Jesus being called Elohim [u]does not[/u] prove that He is God Almighty, [b][u]because[/b][/u] Elohim means more than "God Almighty" and other people besides Jesus are called Elohim.

Trinitarians should [b][u]not[/u][/b] use this as an argument for the deity of Jesus.

I invite everyone to consider this.

Nile

Nile,

You still have avoided all of the references to Jesus being YHWH, and you have never even attempted to answer John's testimony of Christ in the opening of his gospel.

The belief in the trinity is logical and reasonable not because of a few references but because it is present through out the whole Bible. Genesis 19 has YHWH on earth calling down fire from YHWH in heaven. Isaiah calls YHWH the first and the last, the creator who will share his glory with no other. Isaiah further states that at the name of YHWH every knee shall bow...ALL CLEARLY attributed to Jesus in the New Testament.

Two weeks isn't enough time simply because the material is SO VAST.

If I wanted to say that Jesus was God come to earth and clothed with humanity I couldn't do a better job than the first chapter of John. Have any of your [i]TEACHERS[/i] taught you that chapter yet?

Matt I'm not trying to win an argument with you. This is life and death.

RobertW II---------------------quote": "We are leaving out a whole section of essential doctrine that Nile and Wildbranch deny; the Deity of the Holy Spirit."

Speaking for myself, how can one deny the deity of the Holy Spirit of God? The very words "Spirit of God" define the phrase.

Spirit is the English translation of the Hebrew ruach (Strong's #7304), in the Old Testament and the Greek pneuma (Strong's #5141) in the NT.
The word "holy" is translated from the Hebrew word kodesh, and in the Greek text, hagios, which literally means "set-apart." Strongest Strong's Dictionary #6944: kodesh - holy or sacred thing, holy or sacred place, sanctuary; holiness, set-apart as dedicated to God.

Every mention of God's spirit (some 400 times) in our English Bible is translated in the OT from the Hebrew word 'ruach' and in the NT from the Greek word 'pneuma', these being the only two words God inspired the writers of Scripture to us. Both words were part of everyday Hebrew or Greek speech, having the literal meaning, breath or wind.

So, let me put forth something that can be destructo tested.

I believe Jesus being called Elohim does not prove that He is God Almighty, because Elohim means more than "God Almighty" and other people besides Jesus are called Elohim.

Trinitarians should not use this as an argument for the deity of Jesus.

I invite everyone to consider this.

Trinitarians? You mean Christians don't you? You still did not answer Jesus Christ being referred to as YHWH in those vast number of passages.

Speaking for myself, how can one deny the deity of the Holy Spirit of God? The very words "Spirit of God" define the phrase.

You would deny the [i]person[/i] of the Holy Spirit as being distinct from the Father and the Son.

Both words were part of everyday Hebrew or Greek speech, having the literal meaning, breath or wind.

Can breath and wind be blasphemed?

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. (Mark 3L29

Can a mere breath or wind testify?

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Just a few examples.

dorcas:

I appreciate your post, but I can't help but feel drastically misunderstood :-(

As long as you are hoping to come away from Bible reading with a nice linear, academic precis, I fear you will be disappointed, and God may even withhold revelation from you, while you have any other agenda except to know Him alone.

I have no problem saying that the trinity cannot be understood. That isn't why I reject it! I reject it because I have found out that all of the arguments for the trinity that I was taught [u]are very bad un-scriptural arguments[/u]. Not seeing any good arguments for the trinity, but rather seeing a multitude of reasons to accept the truth that Jesus is the Messiah, in fact the SON of God, not God the Son, even the BEGOTTEN SON not the Unbeggoten God. Christ is man just like me and you in every way, yet without sin. [u]This is plain plain, straight up scripture[/u]. I am practically quoting verses here.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. I have not been "logically forced" into rejecting the trinity but have been "common sensed","big pictured", and "Biblical reasoned" into rejecting it.

I just wish others would open their eyes to and dare to question what they've been taught their whole life. If you're right, then you know it all the more, and will have good arguments against deception. If you're wrong, then amen for searching out the truth.
Nile

HeReigns,

I am sorry that the posting from Romans offended you. :cry: It was not meant to judge or condemn or offend you.

I felt that it was relevant to the thread specifically because of its warning to those who exchanged the glory of the incorruptible (rsv Immortal) God for an image in the form of corruptible [mortal] man, or birds, or animals or reptiles. The discussion about whether God (in his human form as many understand), can be tempted to worship Satan, or be tempted to do evil. As has been stated by James - He cannot be tempted to evil (He is incorruptible). Most hold (according to the postings), that the temptation of the Messiah was real, he was tempted by Satan after his 40 day fast in the wilderness. They then say that Messiah is 100% YHWH, making him able to be tempted.
Yes, ultimately the passage does say that those who do that will be given up to the lusts of their heart etc...

I do not judge anyone on this forum. I do not condemn anyone to hell or say that they are lost, deliver them up to Satan etc.

I appreciate that most here are sincere, devoted Christians. That most believe something that I believe to be gross error does not entitle me to sit as judge over them. Rom: 2:16 says: ...."God shall judge the secrets of men by Yeshua the Messiah according to my gospel". He is the righteous, merciful judge, and I will leave that to Him.

Peace to you all

I just wish others would open their eyes to and dare to question what they've been taught their whole life. If you're right, then you know it all the more, and will have good arguments against deception. If you're wrong, then amen for searching out the truth.

Nile,

No man EVER told me that Jesus was God. With few exceptions of children's stories no one ever attempted to explain God to me at all. All my early understanding of Him came from reading the Bible, including Jesus being God. I was not taught that, I read it from the scriptures. I didn't need a Greek scholar or MDiv to tell me. I wasn't convinced by a Church council or deceived by Constantine. After years of studying the Bible, you telling me and others on SI that Jesus is not God incarnate is like trying to tell us that the story of Pinocchio did not include a puppet.

The whole of Scripture is centered on this Nile. It's so plain that your conclusion is absurd. If a 12 year old can see this and 23 years later only be more convinced I find it funny that your 2 week "Bible Study" is going to change the world.

We're still waiting for your exposition of the 1st chapter of John.

Christ is man just like me and you in every way, yet without sin. This is plain plain, straight up scripture. I am practically quoting verses here.

What a marvelous thing! In an earlier thread we were defending Pelagianism- taken together; if Pelagius and Nile are right- any one of us could have been the Messiah if only we had actually been sinless.

Compton:

Collossians 1 ...for by him all things were created...

Jesus said in Luke 6, "...Give to everyone who asks of you..."

Hey Compton! Gimme me a million dollars!

"Huh? No."

Yeah, the scripture says, it's plain as day!

"No, it doesn't mean give to everyone who asks of you."

lol! Yes it does! You're denying the plain truth of scripture!

"You're tearing scriptures out of context. You're building a doctrine on one verse. Your forgetting common sense. Jesus obviously didn't mean it the way you're saying."

...

Now lets look at Collossians 1 [i]in context[/i].

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Now...lets look at the flow of thought.

vs. 13
[i]He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,[/i]

So Paul is talking about a [u]kingdom[/u] here, the kingdom of The Son.

vs. 14
[i]in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.[/i]

We enter into this kingdom through Christ's blood. By it, we are redeemed (from the kingdom of Darkness) to the kingdom of the Son.

vs. 15
[i]He is the image of the invisible God[/i]

Jesus is the perfect man. He fulfills what God said when He said, "Let us make man in our image." (us = plural intensive. common literary device.) If we see the Son, we have seen the Father.

[i]the firstborn over all creation.[/i]

Firstborn over all creation? What? Jesus surely wasn't the first man born. He was born after millions of other men. So what is Paul talking about? Well, [b]remember the context[/b].

vs. 13
[i]He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love[/i]

Think Jewish. Firstborn. Ring a bell? We're not talking about [u]time[/u] here, we're talking about authority and heirship! Jesus is the firstborn in the Kingdom of God! That is to say, Jesus has the first place, the highest spot, the most rights, all the inheritance. This idea is repeated a few verses later:

vs. 17&18
[i]And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.[/i]

Is it starting to make sense now? Paul isn't talking about Jesus [i]existing[/i] before all things, he's talking about in the kingdom of God, Jesus is [b]before all things as the righteous Son, the anointed King![/b] Jesus has the chief place of authority, honor, and glory.

Now, lets look at verse 16 which is right in the middle of all this kingdom talk.

vs. 16
[i]For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.[/i]

Do you see it yet? Let list the things which Jesus created:
1. Thrones.
2. Dominions.
3. Principalities.
4. Powers.

If it's not obvious yet, [b][i]these are all Kingdom things!!![/i][/b] It doesn't say anything like "Jesus created the rocks and trees." No! [b]That's not the context! The context is the kingdom of the Son![/b]

To sum it up, all things pertaining to the Kingdom of God were created by Jesus and for Jesus. Try reading the passage again from that perspective.

This also explains the other passages talking about Jesus creating the world (Compare with Hebrews 1:2 ("world" is "age"), Hebrews 1:10 and Hebrews 2:5) and the passages that talk about Jesus being the First and the Last (in Revelation).

...

I hope everyone reads this explanation closely. Click on any of the links I have posted and you will see this idea expounded on and supported even more. Here are some of them again:
http://www.creatorgod.org/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/

Compton, I will address the rest of your post in a future post.

Nile

I appreciate that most here are sincere, devoted Christians.

This is not a matter that is up for debate within Christendom. This is an unalterable essential Christian doctrine in question. This is not some side issue that we can agree to disagree on.

Simply pointing to a Bible verse does nothing....

What we need is reasonable discussion. I believe X because of Y. Saying, "X is wrong" does nothing. What would help is to say, "I understand that you believe X because of Y.

Nile...you've taken away my "Y" by telling us not to point to a verse in the bible to pursuade you. That was my reasonable dicussion...everything else is intellect and philosophy.

Nile, I appreciate that you feel you've given this matter sufficient thought. I am, however sad that you feel you can't place trust in any authority...not sad only for you per se, but for the Church in your generation. The post-modern agnostic complaint that the bible is unclear and that truth is unknowable has gained ground in this thread. A few fitting lines of 17th century poetry by John Dryden...

For did not Arius first, Socinus now,
The Son's Eternal Godhead disavow?
And did not these by gospel texts alone
Condemn our doctrine, and maintain their own?
Have not all heretics the same pretence
To plead the Scriptures in their own defence?
:-(

MC

Isaiah 45:22-25
Look to Me and be saved all you ends of the earth! For I am God and there is NO other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return

[b]That to [i]Me[/i] every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.[/b]

He shall say, "Surely in the LORD (YHWH) I have righteousness and strength." To Him men shall come and all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. In the LORD (YHWH) all the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.

Philippians 2:9-11

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him THE NAME which is above every name,

[b]That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Kyrios, another greek name for God) to the glory of God the Father.[/b]

We're still waiting for your exposition of the 1st chapter of John.

Yes, still waiting. And with it the mass of scriptures that identify Jesus Christ with YHWH.

RobertW wrote:

Christ is man just like me and you in every way, yet without sin. This is plain plain, straight up scripture. I am practically quoting verses here.

What a marvelous thing! In an earlier thread we were defending Pelagianism- taken together; if Pelagius and Nile are right- any one of us could have been the Messiah if only we had actually been sinless.

No one has said Jesus was not unique. He was the Son of God, trained by God Himself.

I don't know about your Jesus Robert, but my Jesus [u]had to learn obedience and to love righteousness and hate wickedness[/u].

Hebrews 5:8
[i]though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered[/i]

Isaiah 15-16
[i]Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.[/i]

Woah! Nobody likes to hear those verses!

Read them again. And once more.

Was there time when Jesus didn't know to refuse evil and choose good? How is this possible if Jesus is God?

(I am not saying Jesus actually chose evil, but when He was child, [u]He was a child just like us[/u].)

Nile

The post-modern agnostic complaint that the bible is unclear and that truth is unknowable has gained ground in this thread.

It is only because we treat them courteously that we loose ground among the simple. Had we declared their doctrine rife heresy and blasphemy and the probigators blasphemers and heretics we had well kept that ground. And this is how the Church has lost so much ground in the last 100 years- sitting back and just allowing the enemy to bring out our niceness.

RobertW wrote:

We're still waiting for your exposition of the 1st chapter of John.

Yes, still waiting. And with it the mass of scriptures that identify Jesus Christ with YHWH.

Was there time when Jesus didn't know to refuse evil and choose good? How is this possible if Jesus is God?

You will never understand so long as you continue to deny the hypostatic union.

RobertW wrote:

Was there time when Jesus didn't know to refuse evil and choose good? How is this possible if Jesus is God?

You will never understand so long as you continue to deny the hypostatic union.

In other words, "We have no explanation. Go study our vain doctrines."

No, you have greatly withstood our words even in the face of tremendous counsel and scriptural evidence. You have had MORE than enough evidence to convince you. Your doctrine declares who you are.

Nile,

Context my friend remember that word because is testifies against you. Once again still waiting on John ch.1 (actually probably still waiting on you foolishly* googling it until you find another link to post).

But back to the context:

John ch1

This Gospel opens magnificently. It begins by portraying the life of Christ in eternity, before the world was.

"In the beginning was the Word" The allusion is given here to the creation of the all that exists. In the beginning was the Word. The meaning in the original is not that the Word was the first thing created but that in the beginning, the Word ALREADY existed.

[b]"And the Word was God"[/b] Literally it says [b]God was the Word[/b] If you wanted to stress something in the Greek you placed it to the front of the sentence. Here John is STRESSING!!! the divinity of the Word.

Hendrickson says:

in order to place all the emphasis on Christ's FULL (emphasis mine) deity the predicate in the original precedes the subject. [b]Over against every heretic it must be MADE PLAIN that this word was fully divine[/b] (emphasis mine)

One sentence back John says "The Word was with God." Literally, The Word was face to face with God. Let's get all Hebrew here for a moment can we? If I were a Hebrew Christian and I wanted to tell disciples that the Word enjoyed an intimate relationship with God BEFORE every thing began what would I say. I would say that the word was Face to Face with God. EXACTLY what John says. This is not, I repeat NOT what one would say who is trying to deny a Christ who exists BEFORE anything is created, because that is evidence of divinity.

Verse 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Hendrickson once again says,

All things, one by one, came into being through this divine word. Thus, the great truth that Christ created all things is first of all stated positively and from the view point of the past. Stated negatively and from the view point of the present, it is expressed thus: "Apart from Him not a single thing that exists came into being."

Two facts are here stressed: a. that Christ Himself was not created; he was eternally (in order to convey that thought the imperfect tense is used four times in verses 1 and 2); and b. that all things were created by him.

I'm taking you to task on this Nile because this is not a "do you eat meat or not" issue. You cannot defeat the clear language of scripture. I'm not a Trinitarian because I believed a lie, but because I was confronted with the truth.

*I shouldn't have said "foolishly" to Nile and I apologize.

Well, when I first saw this discussion, I was very interested in joining it, as I have spent the last number of months studying the divinity of Christ, because of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

However, after having read almost 8 of the 12 pages here, I discovered that Nile has yet to answer any post that contains a scripture in it. At least in context.

So Nile, if you want to discuss the divinity of Christ, pm me, if not, continue with the nonsense. But if you pm me, you will have to respond to every point I make, or I will discontinue any conversation on the issue.

I don't know why anyone on here bothers talking to Nile about this any further, he only preaches false doctrine, and picks non threatening posts to respond to. He is not here to see if what he believes is true, only to espouse his doctrine.

I don't know why anyone on here bothers talking to Nile about this any further,

They way I'm looking at it right now is that Nile and Wildbranch have opened up a forum where the Deity of Christ can be wonderfully and EASILY defended.:-)

His attack on Scripture is only serving to establish it.

[b]Nile,

I would still love you read your exposition of John Ch. 1.[/b]

*

I don't know about your Jesus Robert, but my Jesus had to learn obedience and to love righteousness and hate wickedness.

Hebrews 5:8
though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered

Isaiah 15-16
Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Woah! Nobody likes to hear those verses!

Read them again. And once more.

Was there time when Jesus didn't know to refuse evil and choose good? How is this possible if Jesus is God?

I have NEVER EVER EVER had a problem with this my friend and I'm sure Robert hasn't either. You see, for those who believe ALL of scripture the humanity of Christ is one of the most blessed subjects in the Bible. Jesus also had to learn to talk, to walk, to speak. According to Luke He grew in wisdom and favor with men and God.

NOT ONE TIME will I ever deny a scripture showing the full humanity of Christ. He was absolutely as human as you and I are only without sin.

[b]We don't have a problem with the scriptures pointing to the humanity of Christ. How come you have a problem with the scriptures that equally and JUST AS PLAINLY point to His divinity???[/b]

Jesus Christ was God from eternity, and from the moment of His conception became 100% Man, and 100% God at the same time.

I don't know about your Jesus Robert, but my Jesus

Yes Nile, if this is what you've become convinced of, the Jesus you serve is another Jesus.

*edited (I missed this comment by Nile and couldn't help answering it :-))

quote:------------"Nile, I would still love you read your exposition of John Ch. 1."
Hulsey------------The link that Nile provided is a good study on that. I have posted the conclusion of the study below. Also, it was covered a bit in the bibilical unitarian thread.

It fits in well with the signature that appears on each of your posts:

-- In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America, where it became an enterprise --

The outcome of the Greek philosophical (the church moving to Greece where it became a philosophy) interpretation of the Word becoming flesh, is called Dualism.

Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach, the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. Early Christianity incorporated both views from those religions and philosophies with which it came in contact. This is the same concept used not only in Greek philosophy, but also in Greek mythology. Hercules is the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene. He had a dual nature, he was a man that had supernatural strength which he inherited from his father Zeus. The Pharaohs were godmen and so were the Caesars. The Bible even provides us with an example of this belief in Acts 14:11 when God healed a crippled man through Paul and Barnabas:

"When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form."

The idea of gods becoming men was very prevalent in the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural to inject this belief into Christianity. As you can see, the idea of Dualism is the exact definition that Trinitarians have used for Jesus: He has two natures. He is fully God and fully Man. This is stated in the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD. Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah).

The idea of gods becoming men was very prevalent in the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural to inject this belief into Christianity. As you can see, the idea of Dualism is the exact definition that Trinitarians have used for Jesus: He has two natures. He is fully God and fully Man. This is stated in the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD. Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah).

You all are so predictable. It's about time you took the bait.

This might be a little long so I apologize:

[b]The Logos[/b]

En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton Theon kai Theos ho logos

"In the beginning was the word and the word was with the God and God was the word"

This is an early Aramaic Christian hymn to Christ as God as the introduction to John's Gospel. It has three stanzas each having ho logos "the word" in focus.

[b]The Meaning of Logos[/b]

When the dust finally cleared on the nineteenth century controversy over whether the meaning of the word logos is to be sought in ancient Greek philosophy or in the Old Testament and in early Judaism, it became clear that John was referring to Jesus as the "Word of the Lord" mentioned so many times in the Old Testament, the Targums, and in other early Jewish works. Hendrikson conludes, "It is rooted no in Greek but in Semitic thought."

The nineteenth century liberals had tried to inject an element of philosophic sophistication into John's use of the logos which was nothing more than eisogeses on their part. They forgot that John was a simple man writing to a simple people and to to Greek philosophers. John's point is quite simple: Just as your words reveal what is in your mind, even so the pre-incarnate Word is the revelation of the mind of the Father (John 1:18).

Of course, there are those who are still caught in a nineteenth century time warp and think that John was referring to pagan Greek concepts of the Logos. They have yet to read the Targums or the Dead Sea Scrolls. They need to break free from the eroneous pre-archeological speculations of nineteenth century German rationalism.

[b]In the Beginning Was the Word[/b]

The imperfect en, (was), must designate, according to the ordinary meaning of the tense, the simultaneousness of the act indicated by the verb with some other act. This simultaneousness is here that of the existence of the Word with the fact designated by the word beginning. "When everything which has begun began, the Word was." Alone then, it did not begin; the Word was already. Now that which did not begin with things, that is to say, with time, the form of the developement of things, belongs to the eternal order...The idea of this first proposition is, therefore, that of the eternity of the Logos.

Thus the Word existed before the beginning, since He has always existed. With Him there is no beginning. He is eternal and everlasting...It is impossible to avoid the force of John's grammar.

[b]and the Word was with God[/b]

John 1:1 describes the relationship of the Word first to the creation then to the Father. When we think of the relationship between the Word and the creation, the Word is not a part of the creation because He existed before it. And since He is before it, He is not with it. Sine the Word is not with the creation then He must be with the Father from all eternity. John's logic is simple and straight forward on this point.

Johns use of the preposition "pros" "with" is significant. It implies that the Father and the Son had an intimate as well as eternal relationship.

Lenski says,

"The preposition pros, as distinct from eos, para, adn syn, is [b]of the greatest importance[/b]... The idea [b]is that of presence and communion[/b] with a strong note of reciprocity--in other words an equal relationship. [b]The Logos, then, is NOT AN ATTRIBUTE INFERRING in God, OR A POWER EMANATING from Him, BUT A PERSON in the presence of God and turned in loving inseparable communion toward God and God turned equally toward Him. [i]He was another and yet not other than God.[/i][/b]

The sheer force of John chapter one undercuts any and all denials of either the Humanity or Deity of Jesus Christ. You can't have a personal relationship with an idea.

BenWilliams:

BenWilliams wrote:
Well, when I first saw this discussion, I was very interested in joining it, as I have spent the last number of months studying the divinity of Christ, because of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

However, after having read almost 8 of the 12 pages here, I discovered that Nile has yet to answer any post that contains a scripture in it. At least in context.

Nile

Here's another:

John 1:18 God himself no one has ever seen. [b]The only begotten God[/b], who lies upon the Father's breast, it is he who made him known.

(Hedrikson's trans.)

This reading is supported by the many of the best manuscripts.

The idea of gods becoming men was very prevalent in the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural to inject this belief into Christianity. As you can see, the idea of Dualism is the exact definition that Trinitarians have used for Jesus: He has two natures. He is fully God and fully Man. This is stated in the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD. Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah).

This is a typical early on teaching in Messianic Jewish circles; but rarely, so far as my experience goes, do they go so far as to deny the Deity of Christ.

Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah)

I knew the use of the term Yeshua would not go on forever. Starts to feel almost pretentious after a while, does it not? ;-)

RobertW II wrote to me:--------------"Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah)
I knew the use of the term Yeshua would not go on forever. Starts to feel almost pretentious after a while, does it not?"

***[i]pretentious[/i] ???

To call the Messiah by the name that his parents were told to is NOT pretentious. Not in my books - sorry. I make no apology for using his God-given name.

But that aside, RobertW II, I copy-pasted that from the link that Nile had provided.

"And thou shalt call his name YESHUA; for he shall save his people from their sins!" AMen!!

*pretentious*...are you sure??

In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America, where it became an enterprise

This has a real attractive and even clever ring to it; but it is not true.

Greek influence upon the people of God did not begin when the Church was driven West. Albeit the non-believing Jews [i]were[/i] cursing the believers in the synagogues with the Birkat ha Minim before the destruction of the Temple. And while that was happening the Galileans, Zealots and other members of the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1949]Jewish Freedom Movement[/url] and were working towards a baptism of fire and blood upon Jerusalem. Overall unrest was erupting around the actions of the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1951]ROBBERS[/url] and [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1952]The ASSASINS[/url], along with [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1950]THE ZEALOTS[/url] led to the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1953]Destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. [/url] These are the events that did the MOST to drive Christianity towards the West.

Beside of this, when Alexander the Great conquered the then known world the language of Greek spread throughout. This was convenient for the spread of the Gospel and was prophesied through Nebuchadnezzars dream centuries before. Jews from the Diaspora were living in a Greek culture and were speaking the Greek language. This gave rise to a new term that we must concern ourselves with at this time called [i]Hellenism[/i]. Hellenists are Greek speaking Jews. Hellenism is a blanket term to describe Greek ideas, style, and culture among the Jews.

The Greeks were pagan and very superstitious (Acts 17). It was actually a culture of paganism. They had many gods and mythologies too numerous to even begin to discuss. One thing stands out about the Greeks as it pertains to the Jews that made for a great concern among those who followed scripture; and it was that of “Emperor Worship.” A major change came with Alexander the Great. He seems to have wished to be treated as a god in his lifetime, and the Hellenistic monarchies followed suit.

Certain leaders received what are called isotheoi timai (honors equal to the gods'): priests, sacrifices, an image among those of the gods. Political tribes named after them, their birthday and day of ascension are celebrated like religious holidays. The kings assumed titles associated with their godlike actions: ktistes (founder), euergetes (benefactor), soter (savior). To what extent they were really considered gods is unclear, but the Jewish Freedom Movement participants would view this as a breach of the 1st commandment. From a Jewish standpoint, this is totally unacceptable. The Galileans rose up over the census- likely because it would be for tax purposes. This led to one revolt after another over the next centuries. Those zealous Jews (see previous teachings on the Jewish Freedom Movement) refused to be under Roman dominion is a fashion that made the emperor out to be a god. Taxes in their minds equaled paying tithe and to pay tithe is to give homage to someone or something.

[u]The Septuagint (LXX)[/u]

Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX which means “70”) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. The Septuagint was completed in Alexandria, Egypt between 300-200 BC. Many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language so the Septuagint became widely used among Hellenistic Jews.

The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek gave many non-Jews their first look at the Word of God. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars. According to Ptolemy II Philadelphus, King of Egypt (287-47 BC) had recently established a valuable library at Alexandria. He was persuaded by Demetrius of Phalarus, chief librarian, to translate a copy of the sacred scriptures of the Jews.

In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America, where it became an enterprise

This has a real attractive and even clever ring to it; but it is not true.

Hi Robert,

Sharon is actually quoting my signature. It's a comment from a minister observing how the Gospel, if not guarded, is changed and "culturized."

*edit: It's amazing that she would try to make use of that quote. After all it was not Greek philosophy or Alexadrian allegory that gave rise to the understanding of Christ being both fully God and fully man. However they did birth the heretical teachings we are fighting today.

"And thou shalt call his name YESHUA; for he shall save his people from their sins!" AMen!! But that aside, RobertW II, I copy-pasted that from the link that Nile had provided.

"And thou shalt call his name YESHUA; for he shall save his people from their sins!" AMen!!

[i]pretentious[i/]..are you sure??

Well, after having studied with the Messianics, took 5 semesters of 613 Laws and a host of other courses, celebrated a 1st century style Passover, I came to realize, that in fact I was called to be a Gentile and I never really knew Him by using that name- even IF (and all Yeshua really is is Joshua in Hebrew) that was what He was called in His days upon the earth. I just asked the question from my own experience. I guess calling Paul 'Rav Shaul' and and James 'Rav Jacob' and the like- just was not ME. I began to feel like folk that have an affected personality- only it did not work even that well. I speak English and the LORD knows what I am saying. After al, He counfounded the languages. ;-)

Hi Robert,

Sharon is actually quoting my signature. It's a comment from a minister observing how the Gospel, if not guarded, is changed and "culturized."

No friendly fire intended brother. I just heard lots of similar things in the past and had an idea where that line of reasoning sprang from within Messianic circles. :-)

Nile,

In an earlier post I used the used the word foolishly in reference to you and I apologize. I shouldn't have done that.

I'm not angry with you or sharon though I am passionate about this.

I have a book in my library about the Trinity in the Bible. The author endeavored to cover the issues on the subject throughout the Bible. It's well over 500 pages long and he still wasn't able to cover very much of the material.

One God existing as multiple persons is so prevalent from Genesis to Revelation it's overwhelming. Even in the Sh'ma in Deut. ch6 Hear O' Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one. The word from one is not the Hebrew word for a singular one, but that of a plural of persons being in unity. "They are one" would be an accurate translation.

Please keep studying this.

Robert, I mostly agree with you re your experience with the "Messianics".

Although my husband and I have not been part of such a group, I have seen enough on the internet to see the sort of fake nature of what is going on in some of these elitist type groups(not all). Everything is draped in layers of 'Jewish garb', with excesses not seen in synogogues and Judaism.

You are right, there is a type of pretention going on. Hopefully many will move on to a more genuine expression of their beliefs. The same sort of thing can be seen in the hyper-charismatic Christian circles, although along different lines.

Sharon

*edit. Actually we were part of a type of Messianic community once, but it was a very simple life style, very similar to the Amish or Hutterites Communities. In order to join the community, we were required to 'sell all that we had and give it to the poor', as they took that injunction very literally. Although we lost everything, and ended up only staying a few months, it was a wonderful time.

Compare and consider these three passages:

(Acts 14:11-15) And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. [u]Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you,[/u] and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

Here we have mere men reacting to being considered and called 'gods'. It is a swift reaction and a right one. they rent their garments as a show of vexation at what they people were considering and believing. Their reaction was to NIP IT in the bud!

(Revelation 19:10) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Here an angel refuses to be considered worthy of being known as God and accepting worship. [i]See thou do it not[/i] was the angel's reaction. again, the reaction was to NIP IT in the bud!

(John 20:27, 28) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Bishop Pearce says here: “Observe that Thomas calls Jesus [u]his God[/u], and that Jesus does not reprove him for it, though probably it was the first time he was called so.” And, I would ask, could Jesus be jealous of the honor of the true God - could he be a prophet - could he be even an honest man, to permit his disciple to indulge in a mistake so monstrous and destructive, if it had been a mistake? (Adam Clarke) Truly if the Messiah be as exalted above all other names as Christ is- He would not have allowed such an error to go on unthwarted. Jesus' acceptance of being known as God and worship is additional proof that He is God. If it were not so- He had [u]not[/u] been sinless because He stood by and watched more than one worship Him in VIOLATION of the first commandment.

What I'm still inclined to wonder is, how would Paul deal with this? Or John. Or Jude?

The challenge in these forums is to understand that there is still hope for folk to come to the knowledge of the Truth if they are willing to listen. I believe we have defended the Truth valiantly and rightly; not just with zeal but with Truth. I believe any potential deception has been handled and feel no real fears that we have somehow leaft an question unanswered. Yet, there are still precious souls to consider- both that could be endangered by falsehood and that have been deceived themselves.

If in the event that we cannot come to an understanding of the Truth truly we cannot fellowship with people that hold such a doctrine. There are some issues worth dividing over- and the Deity of Christ and the Trinity are among them. We can win an argument and lose a soul. We must earnestly contend for the faith. And that we have done. If we cannot agree upon essential Christian doctrien after having plainly expounded our case; there is no other recourse but division. We simply cannot allow the proliferation of falsehood in our midst.

Rev 3:14. "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [b]beginning of the creation[/b] of God, says this:'

Uh-oh... Yeshua is talking. Did you listen to what He just said? He just said that he is..."THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD."

Those that claim that Yeshua IS the CREATOR - how can he be the Creator and ALSO at the beginning of the Creation of God? There was a time when 'he was not.....when he was begotten....when he became the first-born...?

"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, [b]Today I have begotten Thee[/b]. (Psalms 2:7)

Hebrews1: 5-9 "For to what angel did God ever say, "Thou art my Son, today I have [b]begotten[/b] thee"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? 6 And again, when he brings the [b]first-born[/b] into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God(**see note), is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, [b]thy God[/b], has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades".

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***note:

Strongest Strong's Dictionary #430: elohim - God (plural of majesty: plural in form but singular in meaning, with a focus on great power); gods (true grammatical plural); any person characterised by greatness or power: mighty one, great one, judge.

*some verses where the word god is used to describe Moses, children of God, and even satan:

Exodus 7:1 "Behold I have made you a [b]god[/b] (Hebrew word: elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet."

Psalm 82:6 "I say , "You are [b]gods[/b] (elohim), sons of the Most High, all of you;"

Yeshua answered them, ‘Is it not written in the Scripture, “I said, you are [b]gods[/b].” If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken, do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘[b]I am the Son of God?[/b]’

The Greek word, theos, is also used to describe Satan, "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4)

The challenge in these forums is to understand that there is still hope for folk to come to the knowledge of the Truth if they are willing to listen. I believe we have defended the Truth valiantly and rightly; not just with zeal but with Truth. I believe any potential deception has been handled and feel no real fears that we have somehow leaft an question unanswered. Yet, there are still precious souls to consider- both that could be endangered by falsehood and that have been deceived themselves.

If in the event that we cannot come to an understanding of the Truth truly we cannot fellowship with people that hold such a doctrine. There are some issues worth dividing over- and the Deity of Christ and the Trinity are among them. We can win an argument and lose a soul. We must earnestly contend for the faith. And that we have done. If we cannot agree upon essential Christian doctrien after having plainly expounded our case; there is no other recourse but division. We simply cannot allow the proliferation of falsehood in our midst.

With this it seems prudent to lock this thread and send out a warning. Niles and wildbranch, you are welcome to partake just as anyone else here but I am asking you to not start any more postings of this nature. It may be difficult to recognize but by what you have both brought forth here in these two subsequent posts of the same nature that everything will have this taint to it. It seems quite the reach that you would even be wiling to listen to any of the messages here or even fellowship with the members of this community when the Lord is seen in such stark contrasts ... That is a very mild and tempered way of putting it, but enough has been spoken already.

John 1:1 In the beginning the Word already existed, and the Word was with God AND THE WORD WAS GOD

verse 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE.

Who's Him??? God, yes God the Son.

Verse 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Who is this?

verse 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

An idea or "principle of life" is not a Him. The Word was (pros gk)with God. The idea in verse one in the greek word pros is that of personal relationship. They were with each other from eternity past. You don't have a relationship with an idea but with a person. You don't call an idea "He" or "Him" as John does. Why? because the Word was a person who existed with God from eternity, and in fact was God from eternity with the Father.

You know if your gonna tell me there's no gold in China all I have to do is find one nugget to prove you wrong. You on the other hand have to dig up the whole country. If you're gonna tell me Jesus isn't God you better know what your talking about because all I have to do is find something like John ch 1 to show your folly, or Gen. 19 or Proverbs ch8 or Isaiah 53, or Phil. 2:6,...etc.etc.etc.