From Science and Scripture do we believe in a literal Genesis because if we do not their is not reason for Jesus coming if we did not sin.
If God did not create the universe in 7 12 hour days then what is the point of him dying and being raised again.
A god of miracles who flooded the whole earth that he created and that he created man from the dust of the earth and spoke the world into being.
A litural Genesis is vital to the believes of a christian. It gives us meaning.
Litural Genesis
I totally agree, the earth was made in a space of 6 days and not a few millions of years. Those who believe in evolution can not say the believe the bible because evolution and the bible does not agree with each other.
There is a strong early church tradition of viewing the Bible Genesis allegorically (Origen, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr-- even Paul makes some inference to it in Gal 4:22-26). I believe this is a fine thing to do. Paul says all Scripture is inspired of God, not that it is historically true. A poem's truth for example does not come from its historical reality, but from what the message contains in and of itself. God was trying to send a message to the human race, and narrative may have been the only way to describe it to all generations of people from all cultures.
I myself have been coming to such a view of Genesis. I have come to recognize that science over and above contradicts such an interpretation. For example, how can you explain dinosaurs and the such?
Personally, when I held strong to a literal rendering of Genesis, it did not help my faith, but crushed it. For it contradicted logic, there being much evidence to the contrary.
Jordan
Edit: I meant Genesis in the first sentence!
www.answersingenesis.com
I would encourage you to look over this web site. Their are logical answers that give credibility to the belief in a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation account.
Have you ever studied the six day creation? On what day was vegetation made? (Gen. 1:11) Day 3. On what day was the sun made? (Gen. 1:16) Day 4. I am not a biologist, but I understand that plants cannot survive, at most, several weeks without the sun.
Just yesterday I was chatting with a fellow student. We began talking about evolution and creation. His argument was that evolution is the answer because, "we had to get here somehow." Now, creation and evolution is one thing I do know something about. I explained the evidence that points towards a literal six day creation and alot of evidence that opposes evolution. My friend's last argument was, "yes, but you have only read books by Christian writters." This, I told him, is not the truth and that I probably knew ten times more about the theory of evolution than he. One thing I wish I would have asked him though is this, "How many books have you read on creationism? How much have you studied it? What can you tell me about it?" Most people today arguee and debate like children about theories they hardly know the first thing about. The result is a mockery. The site suggested in the last post is an excellent site. (answeringgenesis.com) I also suggest Dr. Kent Hovind's material. (www.drdino.com) He explains dinosours, including how perfectly they fit into the Bible. As a child growing up, his work helped me alot. I encourage you to study these teachings.
Hi Jordan,
It was great meeting you in Canton.
I have come to recognize that science over and above contradicts such an interpretation. For example, how can you explain dinosaurs and the such?
I can understand your intellectual dissatisfaction with Genesis as a 'natural history.' However, do you really believe evolution explains dinosaurs 'and such'? In all honesty, I find evolution more intellectually unsatisfactory then Genesis.
For instance, evolutionists claim the fossil record is their most obvious exhibit. Yet to me the fossil record demonstrates stasis not evolution. If fossil impressions are the rare and random mineralization of animals and plants made over the course of hundreds of millions of years...then it should be statistically impossible to ever find the same snapshot twice.
Imagine there is a two hour video of a CGI animation showing a lungfish morphing into an amphibian, then a reptile, and then a mammal. Imagine that someone wrote a video capture program that would scan the video to randomly select and store 2% of the video frames in a folder on your desktop. Upon opening this folder how many duplicates of the same animal do you think you would find in this folder?
Now evolutionists believe that fossils are arbitrary freeze frames that were sampled from the restless morphological history of life on earth. But if this is true, the odds of finding dozens of T-Rex's, Triceratops, or Apatosaurs in geographically diverse locations seems to me to be a statistically impossibility. All I can say is if these paleontologists are that lucky to find multiple examples of the same morphing species, they should become professional gamblers...with their hot hand they would be hitting all cherries on the slot machines every night in Las Vegas.
I am also wary of mixing evolution with the scriptures. Like every cosmological or philosophic dogma, evolution cannot co-exist with scripture while being incongruent with the idea of a created purposeful universe.
Evolution is the kind of truth that must become the only truth that matters in order to be true. Increasingly, many honest scientists and writers are doubting this 'truth' today...many who are not Christians. But evolutionary theory enjoys the position of scientific fact and social dogma, though it actually contributes nothing to science or society....it is the meta-narritive of the modern age, assuring it's shaky consensus through academic enforcement.
For me, there simply are non-material mysteries that even actually valid sciences remain humble before..."i dunno" is often the most truthful answer there is.
Blessings,
MC
A poem's truth for example does not come from its historical reality, but from what the message contains in and of itself. God was trying to send a message to the human race, and narrative may have been the only way to describe it to all generations of people from all cultures.
God does not need a poem to communicate truth about man and Himself. The history of mankind and how God has dealt with man and sin is vitally important and provides the only real answers to the deep questions of life that we all ask. Questions like why does the universe exist? Why does man hold such a unique place in the universe? How is it that man can rise to such heights of achievement at times and yet fall to such depths of depravity at other times? If Genesis is not true history we have no real answers to these questions.
The Triune God is the personal God who is there and He has spoken. He has left a record of His purpose in creation, man's hinderance of that purpose, and God's merciful recovery of what was lost. Remove Genesis from the historic record and you're left with no real answers.
In Christ,
Ron
Hi Freiderick
Friedrick wrote:
Have you ever studied the six day creation? On what day was vegetation made? (Gen. 1:11) Day 3. On what day was the sun made? (Gen. 1:16) Day 4. I am not a biologist, but I understand that plants cannot survive, at most, several weeks without the sun.Just yesterday I was chatting with a fellow student. We began talking about evolution and creation. His argument was that evolution is the answer because, "we had to get here somehow." Now, creation and evolution is one thing I do know something about. I explained the evidence that points towards a literal six day creation and alot of evidence that opposes evolution. My friend's last argument was, "yes, but you have only read books by Christian writers." This, I told him, is not the truth and that I probably knew ten times more about the theory of evolution than he. One thing I wish I would have asked him though is this, "How many books have you read on creationism? How much have you studied it? What can you tell me about it?" Most people today argue and debate like children about theories they hardly know the first thing about. The result is a mockery. The site suggested in the last post is an excellent site. (answeringgenesis.com) I also suggest Dr. Kent Hovind's material. (www.drdino.com) He explains dinosours, including how perfectly they fit into the Bible. As a child growing up, his work helped me alot. I encourage you to study these teachings.
I am a Biologist, and don't believe in Evolution any more, especially for [i]scientific
It was a challenge by another Christian (he was a medical doctor and I was a new undergraduate, so trying to argue was futile!), that made me realise that I'd been [i]brainwashed
Being a Christian made it easier to accept that Evolution wasn't true, because there was no problem knowing the ultimate Origin of the Universe.
However, the scientific evidence also fits the Biblical account much better than Evolutionary dogma does.
Which, knowing God, is exactly what one would expect!
I did wonder about whether it was a literal six days, but have since read enough scientific and Biblical evidence to convince that it must have been. Except of course that God probably created time, and days too, which raises the question of what is a "day"? But as soon as He divided day from night (if not before) then time must have existed. So the concept of a literal six day creation is still scientifically reasonable - as long as you make the starting assumption that the God described in the Bible really exists.
After all, Evolutionists make the (scientifically much less likely) starting assumption that the Universe somehow came about all by itself!
The Evolution debate has been discussed here quite a bit. Put "Evolution" into search.
Blessings
Jeannette
Hi Jordan
jordanamo wrote:
There is a strong early church tradition of viewing the Bible Genesis allegorically (Origen, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr-- even Paul makes some inference to it in Gal 4:22-26). I believe this is a fine thing to do. Paul says all Scripture is inspired of God, not that it is historically true.
Do you think Origen et al knew much about modern science? ;-)
In fact, the more discoveries are made about the incredible complexity of living things (especially on the biochemical level) the less likely it is that Evolution could possibly produce them. But Evolution is a tenet of absolute faith (not science) to many scientists, so that they can't even see how increasingly unlikely it is - however many billions of years there may have been!
You are right that Scripture contains allegories, but what's to stop an account being allegorical AND historical?
Genesis is in a historical section of the Bible, so you need very strong evidence why it [i]shouldn't
Have you ever read any solid historical evidence why the early chapters of Genesis can't possibly be literal? Except of course that God Himself must have [i]told
Most of what you have read against the historical accuracy of Genesis will be conjecture, smokescreen, rank unbelief and atheism and man's opinions dressed up as "science" when it's nothing of the sort! The onus of disproof is on the sceptics, not on the Bible, and they haven’t succeeded yet!
Of course you can get many allegorical and spiritual lessons from the literal historical accounts, as Paul did with Hagar in Galatians. But that's no reason to think that Hagar never existed. Read the account of her life - doesn't she react just like a real human being? Doesn't the jealousy and spite between her and Sarah, and Abraham's anguish over it all, ring true to real life?
To allegorise the Bible's historical books out of historical existence is like saying that the Crucifixion is an allegory, and never actually happened! (Some theologians do say that of the Resurrection!) And I'm sure you wouldn't do that!
REAL science doesn't, that's the whole point!I myself have been coming to such a view of Genesis. I have come to recognize that science over and above contradicts such an interpretation.
There isPersonally, when I held strong to a literal rendering of Genesis, it did not help my faith, but crushed it. For it contradicted logic, there being much evidence to the contrary.
For example, did you know that Earnst Haekel's famous drawings of a series of embryos of different creatures (found in every school textbook) were [i]deliberately forged
Did you know that much fossil "evidence" of "missing links" is derived from fragments of bone that could be from almost any animal? One fossil tooth was hailed as coming from an ancient apelike human ancestor, and was later found to be from a pig!
Speaking of pigs, did you know that surgeons often use [i]pig
The reason apparently is that, immunologically, pigs are nearer humans than apes are, so there's less danger of our bodies rejecting the valve!
Dear Jordan, it makes me so angry that honest, sincere believers such as yourself can have their faith shaken by such deception and downright lies masquerading as science! To such an extent, in your case (and you aren’t alone) that the pressure of “scientific” unbelief makes you reinterpret the Bible in order not to lose your faith
You need to be more sceptical of what such “experts” believe (not only in science) and would have you believe. Truly Paul speaks of such in Romans 1:
[color=990000] 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.[/color]
Yours in Him
Jeannette
InTheLight wrote:A poem's truth for example does not come from its historical reality, but from what the message contains in and of itself. God was trying to send a message to the human race, and narrative may have been the only way to describe it to all generations of people from all cultures.
God does not need a poem to communicate truth about man and Himself. The history of mankind and how God has dealt with man and sin is vitally important and provides the only real answers to the deep questions of life that we all ask. Questions like why does the universe exist? Why does man hold such a unique place in the universe? How is it that man can rise to such heights of achievement at times and yet fall to such depths of depravity at other times? If Genesis is not true history we have no real answers to these questions.
The Triune God is the personal God who is there and He has spoken. He has left a record of His purpose in creation, man's hinderance of that purpose, and God's merciful recovery of what was lost. Remove Genesis from the historic record and you're left with no real answers.
In Christ,
Ron
I wasn't trying to debate evolution more the fact that it is so frustrating when you have to debate issues like this.
When I debate this issue it is more a faith issue.
If someone cannot believe that creation was spoken into being in seven days, then how can they believe any of the other miracles , to me it shines light on people's faith more than anything else. If they are Christian I would question their faith.
God is not a god of the impossible he is not god!!
Jordan,
I am so sorry to hear that your faith in God has taken such a beating! If God cannot do the [apparent] impossible, how can you even believe [i]anything
I can not debate evolution vs creationism because of ignorance on my part. However, I will have to tell you this: our son graduated from Mississippi University for Women with a BS degree in microbiology and he is a creationist! He said that when you get into the high levels in the study of origins, the flaws of evolution become apparent, rendering a belief in the Biblical [account of] creation logical.
Hope this helps..
ginnyrose
Hey Mike, thanks for your response.
..then it should be statistically impossible to ever find the same snapshot twice.
Concerning the fossil record, how is it statistically impossible to find the same snapshot twice? Yes fossilization is very rare, but that in and of itself doesn't seem to me to be a good argument for against evolution.
the odds of finding dozens of T-Rex's, Triceratops, or Apatosaurs in geographically diverse locations seems to me to be a statistically impossibility.
Except that the odds of finding a fossil increase the more stronger-boned an animal is.
God does not need a poem to communicate truth about man and Himself.
Hello Ron.
Says who? ;)
The creation story deals with the becoming of all things, God's revelation, and as such I think it to be only proper for it to be written as a poem!
Do you think Origen et al knew much about modern science?
Hello Jeanette.
No, they didn't, but if they did I'm sure if they did they'd hold an even more allegorical view of Genesis!
For example, did you know that Earnst Haekel's famous drawings of a series of embryos of different creatures (found in every school textbook) were deliberately forged by him, in order to give the impression that they were almost identical (thus "evidence" for evolution)?
Yes, but that has long been debunked and is not a proper criticism of the evolutionary theory itself.
Dear Jordan, it makes me so angry that honest, sincere believers such as yourself can have their faith shaken by such deception and downright lies masquerading as science! To such an extent, in your case (and you aren’t alone) that the pressure of “scientific” unbelief makes you reinterpret the Bible in order not to lose your faith
My faith hasn't been shaken, but strengthened. I have not reinterpreted the Bible, but read it as it is. It is an interpretation of the text, sure, but all readings of the Bible are. I have just emphasized a recognition of certain literary techniques (apocalyptic, narrative, historical). My faith has not been lost. God is still the triune God of Israel and Abraham, the God found in the crucified Christ.
I am so sorry to hear that your faith in God has taken such a beating!
Hello ginnyrose.
I restate and reaffirm: my faith in God stands strong. I just have come to a view of Genesis (in particular the creation story) as allegory-- as narrative. This is just recognizing that there are MORE literary techniques than simply historical.
I do not really want to debate the theory of evolution by common descent as I only have a cursory understanding of the subject. But I just want to affirm that faith in God is not based upon a literal, historical interpretation of Genesis.
Jordan
Hello Jordan,
The creation story deals with the becoming of all things, God's revelation, and as such I think it to be only proper for it to be written as a poem!
True, God could have given Moses a poem to describe creation but did he? The Hebrew language has specific grammatical guidelines for something written poetically. Genesis 1 however is not written in Hebrew poetry. It follows the grammatical rules of historical literature. It's written in elevated language to be sure, but not poetry.
[url=http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/Genesis.asp]Genesis Questions and Answers
Check out this web page. It might help you to see where I'm coming from. You will find the articles a very interesting read.
In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey
Hebrews 11
By Faith
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Science changes ever so often, the word of God doesn't. I find it futile to try to use science to either prove or disprove biblical facts.
Can we scientifically prove Jesus resurrection or ascension?
If you take Genesis allegorical, you may as well take the other doctrines in the bible allegorical.
Philip
*unintended duplication deleted*
I would have agreed with you 100%, but have learned that, sadly, many true, sincere, and committed Christians (such as Jordan, whose salvation I do not doubt in the slightest) have been "got at" regarding Evolution. Especially those who have no scientific background (but also some who do) and therefore may lack the tools to study the subject in enough depth to sort out the very biased
deltadom wrote:If someone cannot believe that creation was spoken into being in seven days, then how can they believe any of the other miracles , to me it shines light on people's faith more than anything else. If they are Christian I would question their faith.
What many Christians also fail to realise is that there are demonic strongholds of [i]thought
The philosophy behind Evolution is one of these strongholds, and blinds many - even Christians. I shall never forget the difference when the Lord helped me to see that I'd been brainwashed! How could I, as a science student, have possibly believed, what was now so obviously an unscientific "theory"? The man Jesus had to touch a second time to heal his sight fully couldn't have been more thrilled! He saw men "as trees walking" Evolutionists see men "as apes walking"!
We don't have to be bound with the cords of our culture - the Lord sets us free, in every way: spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and often physically too (though complete physical healing has to wait till we get our new bodies in the resurrection!)
2Corinthians 10
[color=990000]3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not 1carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 [i][b]casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ
The word "arguments", (KJV "imaginations") has more the meaning of "reasonings":
Blessings
Jeannette
Hello Jeanette.
jordanamo wrote:Do you think Origen et al knew much about modern science?
No, they didn't, but if they did I'm sure if they did they'd hold an even more allegorical view of Genesis![b]including that written by evolutionists
Yes, but that has long been debunked and is not a proper criticism of the evolutionary theory itself.For example, did you know that Earnst Haekel's famous drawings of a series of embryos of different creatures (found in every school textbook) were deliberately forged by him, in order to give the impression that they were almost identical (thus "evidence" for evolution)?
I mentioned the complexities of Biochemistry, and new discoveries of even more complex and finely tuned systems are being made all the time. To imagine that they could have come about by chance is like saying that a factory producing a range of complex chemicals in a precise order, and able to produce other chemicals that need that order to be able to exist, could have built itself from a pile of bricks and other raw materials!
Maybe not, but but why did you change your interpretation of the historical account in Genesis merely as a result of an anti-God hypothesis, that can be shownI do not really want to debate the theory of evolution by common descent as I only have a cursory understanding of the subject. But I just want to affirm that faith in God is not based upon a literal, historical interpretation of Genesis.Jordan
As has been said, where does it end? Do you doubt the resurrection because its scientifically unlikely? (Actually resurrection [i]is
Geological and other evidence in recent years increasingly support the Genesis account - even from the research of sceptics, although they would never admit it!
For example the Flood:
Most fossils, worldwide, show evidence of being quickly buried in massive amounts of sediment that was almost certaily deposited by water.
A boat of the dimensions of Noah's Ark would suit its purpose incredibly well. There would have been plenty of room for all the creatures (at least if only eggs or young individuals of a few kinds of larger dinosaurs were taken). Remember that animals wouldn't have had time to diversify all that much from the original created "kinds", (roughly corresponding to present day genera, or larger groupings?) so there would have been far fewer species than we have today.
The Ark must also have been an amazingly stable structure that would have been able to stand up to huge storm conditions. Again, recent tests on a scale model (the original dimensions were more like that of an ocean liner) of such a boat have shown that it would indeed have had the required stability, and proved uncapsizable under the most extreme test conditions.
These days, there is such a weight of real science, as opposed to conjecture, that fits the Genesis account extremely well. Evolution just can't compete.
Except that it is a stronghold, as I said. Otherwise you would be willing to consider the evidence more closely. Even as a layman you could get enough understanding of the subject to see some of the fallacies and virtual scientific [i]impossiblity
Doesn't your reluctance to do so tell you anything? That was what started me doubting Evolution - my own reaction when belief in it was challenged. Before that it had never occurred to me to doubt it, or that it might possibly be incompatible with my faith.
I'm glad it hasn't shaken your faith, but it's certainly distorted your understanding of the Bible. Genesis is a [b]historical
in Him, the Author and finished of our faith, who was there at the Beginning.
Jeannette
Jeannette
Hi Jordan,
...the odds of finding a fossil increase the more stronger-boned an animal is.
My skepticism wasn't againts tthe possibility of a dinosaur bone becoming a fossil. My skepticism is against the possibility of dozens of identical species being captured without any morphological differences. Again if all life is really in constant flux, and if the animals that exist in any given moment of time are constantly morphing forms rather then fixed species...then how often should we find two identical species of anything preserved in the random slot machine of the geological record? (Let alone dozens...)
Why do we continue to find that every triceratops uncovered is just like the other triceratops specimens that have already been uncovered for the past one hundred years? Shouldn't we find a triceratops that is morphing into something else at least once?
My point is that the persistent pattern of stasis in the fossil record has historically always been a major problem for Darwinists, ever since the theory was published in 1858. Now Darwin had the benifit that paleontology was, in his day, still a young enough science to afford him the hope that thousands of transitional fossils would eventually be found.
Well it is almost 2008 and they have not been found. In fact the fossil record is curiously a record of stasis and does not present morphological instability or fluidity...at least not without the help of museum curators telling us it does. For a resonable unbiased person, the fossil record should be an embarrasment for Darwininsim.
Now admittedly the evolutionists do point with pride to the archeopteryx and their textbook contrived sequence of horse fossils beginning with eohippus and ending with the modern breeds. Yet these two questionable examples only underscore the overwhelming lack of similar examples. According to Darwin, our museums should be filled with unique chimeras, each one slightly different then the other. Instead, we find only stasis. Over and over again, perfect unvarying stasis. Have you ever seen the Triceratops in the Carnegie Museum in Pittsburg? It's just like the one in the Natural History Museum in New York, the Smithsonian in DC and the Peabody Museum in New Haven CT. Imagine that...each museum has a find of the exact same random mutation!
Again, considering that genetic mutation is supposed to be in constant flux within evolutionary and geological history...and considering that a variance in dept of just a few feet in rock strata could represent the span of 50-100 millions years of history being captured...the odds of finding consistently identical fossilized species, captured infrequently and randomly from an endlessly mutating sequence across the span of millions of years, should be considered quite an unlikely possibility. It is an unlikely possibility that happens all the time in evolutionary paleontology.
Blessings brother,
MC
Compton said
Instead, we find only stasis. Over and over again, perfect unvarying stasis. Have you ever seen the Triceratops in the Carnegie Museum in Pittsburg? It's just like the one in the Natural History Museum in New York, the Smithsonian in DC and the Peabody Museum in New Haven CT. Imagine that...each museum has a find of the exact same random mutation!
The real bones are too heavy for display - the bones are die cast (I don't know if that's the proper terminology) and the skeletons on display are made of lighter materials.
The museums, no doubt, cast only the best fossils for their shows... thus, many museums exhibit reproductions of one skeleton in pristine condition.
As for this "flux" you're speaking of, type "triceratops" into wikipedia and examine the various phenotypes (size, weight, number of horns, some even had multiple spikes along the ridge of head armor) of this magnificent beast - they did change over time.
While you're at it, type in "rhinoceros" and compare the two creatures. One's a reptile, the other a mammel, but these "tanks on four legs" share many similarities in skeletal structure (called "evolutionary convergence").
There is a strong early church tradition of viewing the Bible Genesis allegorically...Paul says all Scripture is inspired of God, not that it is historically true. A poem's truth for example does not come from its historical reality, but from what the message contains in and of itself. God was trying to send a message to the human race, and narrative may have been the only way to describe it to all generations of people from all cultures.
Jordanamo, read the following verses and tell me that Genesis is not historically, literally true:
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, [b]from the blood of righteous Abel
Matthew 23:34-35 (x-ref with Luke 11:51)
Please read those verses again.
"From the blood of righteous" who???
Can the blood of a righteous figure that never lived condemn the hypocritical pharisees?
It seems Jesus took the book of Genesis literally.
Or how about another one:
Hebrews 11:4: "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he [b]being dead
Well...if he's dead, then he must have been [i]alive
even Paul makes some inference to it in Gal 4:22-26
Tell me, who is the author of time and history? Is it not the Lord? Is He not sovereign, using all things for His glory? Can He not use real, literal, historical events to serve as an allegory for us?
With your type of reasoning what keeps us from concluding that the book of Exodus is not an allegory as well, since the events occuring there where also containing an important message for us? Paul explains this in 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 when he speaks of crossing the Red Sea and the wilderness, saying that "these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
Or heck, why believe in [i]any
I myself have been coming to such a view of Genesis. I have come to recognize that science over and above contradicts such an interpretation. For example, how can you explain dinosaurs and the such?
We've already recommended the answersingenesis.org site for you investigate. It will really help. One thing you must realize is that scientific findings are open to interpretation, especially when they deal with organisms that are no longer extant. Bias and speculation play a key role here. Bias, because those who are not with Christ are against Him, and because of this they hate Him and will do everything in their power to suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), and would rather believe fables than the truth (2 Tim 4:4). Speculation, because no one except the Lord has been alive since before the foundations of the world, and thus there is really no way to know how old the earth is (and no, radiometric dating is innacurate), except through Scripture. Please consider the fact that you've been duped by evolutionary propaganda.
What it really comes down to is this: are you going to believe, base your life on, and view the Holy Scriptures in light of, the findings and "facts" of godless men who abhor the Savior, love their sins, follow after human ideologies, and seek to advance the kingdom of man, OR are you going to believe the findings and interpretations of godly, regenerate, sincere scientists who set the literal truth of God's Word as their foundation, seeking nothing more than the Lord's glory and HIS kingdom to be advanced?
Something to think about.
God bless you.
Oh yea, I almost forgot--you may also want to read 2 Peter 3:3-6. It says that in the last days scoffers will come, walking after their own lusts, being "willingly ignorant" of Creation and the Flood. In order to have a right view of science, it is important to not be ignorant of these.
Greetings bro Jordan in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.
There is a strong early church tradition of viewing the Bible Genesis allegorically (Origen, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr-- even Paul makes some inference to it in Gal 4:22-26). I believe this is a fine thing to do. Paul says all Scripture is inspired of God, not that it is historically true. A poem's truth for example does not come from its historical reality, but from what the message contains in and of itself. God was trying to send a message to the human race, and narrative may have been the only way to describe it to all generations of people from all cultures.
that don't make no sense no way... :-?
The bible isn't a poem, those things which men wrote as they were led of Holy Ghost aren't based on nothing but on Truth. Why would God inspire something which isn't historically accurate? or is God a liar which is what you are suggesting in what you said whether you know it or not. Paul said that what is seen was made from what is not seen which is the atomic theory. That the plants were made before the sun says to me that the plants didn't need the sun to live but God Himself sustained them until He finished creating and thereafter creation sustained itself, a Perfect System from The Perfect MAker. Do you realize that Adam had no need of food?His relationship with God was his sustinence, the closeness of that Fellowship negated need for anything else as it was all in all.Even Eve coming into the picture came out of that.
the contradiction as it were between the word of God and what you observe in terms of logic and all isn't a failing of God in communicating Himself through His word, but rather a failure of man to understand God as revealed in His word...it is also and indictment to us of our foolishness and vanity in our own understanding which has been tainted since the fall. God will often contradict what we understand for the simple reason that we don't understand squat unless it is revealed to us from Heaven.
i hold to a literal view of Genesis because i know God to be more than capable of doing what He said He did, it is offensive but then again God is an offense to us in our vanity for He exposes what we are by His Light.
God don't lie nor does He do anything you have suggested in saying He inspired people to write things which aren't historically accurate...whose standard are you using as the plumb line? man or God? it seems we like to measure God up to our standard and that is the very epitome, the very embodiment of our wicked vanity as men.
God help us.AMEN.
Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
Jordanamo,
give it up, they will not listen to reason but will tell you that God is a liar if evolution or something like it is true. their literal interpretation of what is clearly intended to be allegory speaks to the foundation of their faith. God in a box! the Bible must make the mystery of God and the creation comprehendable!!! and it must be exactly as the words state in their narrowly defined meanings!
furthermore, when Jesus told parables they were literal, factual stories, as well as being parables! otherwise He wasn't being truthful. thus the seed that the sower spread was mystically both seed AND the Word etc.
there are no words in the Bible that have allegorical or any meaning other than what is literal. this makes Faith so much easier, don't you see!!!!
bub
Greetings in Jesus' Name bro Bub by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
you said bro Bub:
give it up, they will not listen to reason but will tell you that God is a liar if evolution or something like it is true. their literal interpretation of what is clearly intended to be allegory speaks to the foundation of their faith. God in a box! the Bible must make the mystery of God and the creation comprehendable!!! and it must be exactly as the words state in their narrowly defined meanings!
you're right i'm not going to change my stance from what i know from God working in me to be true to some nonsense men with no concept of the Grandeur of God invented, not on your life. Clearly man's efforts to account of creation by any other means have at their root the very thing which caused Lucifer to fall, pride. Indeed in our vanity we have measured God against our own flawed standard of what we think we know in terms of science, politics, morality and everything else and He doesn't cut the mustard...the tragedy is, our standard/understanding isn't what we will be Judged by, it is His. i mean honestly to come to the conclusion that Genesis can't be literal based on our understanding of how things work? have we lost all respect for God? This is the very embodiment of the thing which brought Lucifer to sin, he thought he knew better than God and what God said and we know what happened to him. the very same fate lies in wait for those who would repeat the same folly like yourselves.
it is not this view which puts God in a box but your own. to think that God is wrong because we have spent a few years studying what He knows through and through coz He made it, all the while messing up here and there and having to redo things? come on dear saints, this is the result of folly of the kind which leads to eternal damnation. if you want to go down that road, that's cool, i'm having no part in that.
how is it that we have made our understanding of things the standard?or has God been dethroned?
God help us, Please humble us lest we find ourselves on the road to perdition.AMEN.
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
Hi Corey,
The real bones are too heavy for display - the bones are die cast (I don't know if that's the proper terminology) and the skeletons on display are made of lighter materials.
This is true, most of the time. The mounts in Carnegie are the actual mineral supported by steel bars. However, whether these Triceratops fossil displays are original or cast, they still represent independent finds...they are not all casts off of the one Carnigie sample.
...type "triceratops" into wikipedia and examine the various phenotypes (size, weight, number of horns, some even had multiple spikes along the ridge of head armor) of this magnificent beast - they did change over time.
The Ceratopsian family is wonderfully broad. Yet scientists do not see each different species as a series of points along a chronological sequence of linear evolution. However, some scientists say that these fossils represent non-linear contemporaneous branches on some tree...
This whole subject of how evolutionary relationship is percieved and determined is an interesting one for me. For instance the term convergent evolution produces no real information about the natural world, but is actually uninformative evolutionary word-stock used to label any apparent similarity observed in unrelated species. Terminology like "Convergent Evolution" is not at all a pentrating idea with the ability to explain these similarities...it merely inteprets their existance as some inevitable product of evolution. This is because to an evolutionist all relationships, close or distant, are evolutionary relationships. Evolutionary biology's highly specialized lexicon of intepretive language is obviously not found in the external natural world, and so must originate from internal superimpositional beliefs about the natural world.
On the subject of evolutionary relationships, and out of curiosity fueld by this thread, I cracked open my copy of Horned Dinosaurs, written by Peter Dodson, and recognized as one of modern paleontology's definitive works on Ceratopsia. In particular I want to share a much abridged version of the chapter titled Sisters, Cousins, and Aunts: Deciphering the family tree. The exerpts I am selecting help depict a brief history of constructing the family tree for the Triceratops...and then deconstructing...and then reconstructing it. Actually, I believe these exerpts show how subjective and quite frankly, how predisposed to evolutionary doctrine this practice is.
Peter Dodson...
Fossils do not come out of the ground with labels on them. Defining and naming species and genera is a major intellectual activity.
Marsh identified the first remains of a horned dinosaur as Bison horns in 1887. When at last he finally got it right, naming Triceratop Horridus in 1889, Marsh compared the animal to Stegosaurus, a favorite of his from the late Jurrasic Morrison Formation that he has named in 1877. Only as more specimens and more taxa were described did it become evident that the Ceratopsia represent a distinct group by themselves.
The discovery of protoceratops in Mongolia 1922 proved to be truly electrifying, and it was recognized immediately by Osborn as "the long-sought ancestor" of Triceratops. Psittacosaurus too was a fruit of the AMNH expeditions to Mongloia, but it was a remote cousin, all but forgotten...only admitted into full membership in the Ceratopsia in 1975.
An important synthetic activity of the paleontologist is the determination of relationships.
Clear ancestor-descendant relationships are not unequivocally preserved.
It would be most convenient if a lenghty series of time-successive formations were found in sedimentary basin, each with a descendant species of genus of Dinosaur, but this is not found in practice...much of the evolutionary activity thus may have gone on "off stage", perhaps in upland areas closer to the mountain uplifts, which are not well represented in the fossil record. Presumably new kinds of Dinosaurs then migrated down into the lowlands. This is an interesting model, but one for which there is as yet little emprical evidence.
The first attempt to review all of the Ceratopsia was in 1907...
Dodson goes on to describe the 20th century history of Ceratopsian acedemia...each step much like groping in the dark...sometimes a scientist making a contribution that sticks to the wall chart, and at other times a succesive scientist is undoing the cherished work of a predecessor.
Fair enough...
Now on the newly evolving science of cladistics he informs the laymen For a number of years there was acrimonius debate about the merits of the cladistic method compared to the more classical methods used by systematists for the previous two centuries. Today there is general agreement, whether one or not subscribes to all aspects of cladistic philosophy, that the methodology of cladistic analysis is a useful one. Briefly, cladistic attempts to reconstruct evolutionary novelties---derived characters or synapomorphies, in cladistic jargon.
There is just one final point to make before proceeding. It makes no difference at all to a chicken or a pigeon or an ostrich whether we call it a bird or a dinosaur. It is useful for us to be able to make generalizations about the organisms we wish to discuss. But the names we choose to discuss them are pure human artifacts...the term 'Dinosaur' is a human construct, not an objective fact of nature...we can define our "Club Dinosauria" more broadly or narrowly, and it makes no differenceto the animals inside. It's a matter of taste, not of science. And good taste never goes out of style!
Cladistic analysis began to be applied to dinsaurs in 1984...for our purposes I wish to consider Seron's analysis, particularly the part that relates to ceratopsians.
The origin of Ceratopsians had long been a problem...Sereno came up with a novel arrangement that links the Ceratopsia with the Pacheycephalosauria (the dome-headed dinosaurs) as the Marginocephalia (shelf-heads).
The only other cladistic analysis of the Ceratopsia as a whole was published by Philip Currie and me in 1990. We countered Sereno's suggestion of paraphyly of the Protoceratopsidae by suggesting, albeit tentatively, three potential derived characters uniting protoceratopsids...the matter is unresolved, and the anatomy of the skull Montanoceratops, putatively the most highly derived member, is inadequately known.
The foregoing discussion provides an overview of ceratopsian relationships using the most powerful and respected tools of the trade. Why stop there? Fools rush in where angels fear to tread...Evangelists for cladistics insist their technique is the only one that can yeild objective, reliable results, but it is also true that cladistics requires prior knowledge and makes certain explicit assumptions.
I apologize for the extensive quoting, but I am aware how easy it is to take a writer out of context, and I wished to minimize that risk. It bears repeating that these quotes were from a single chapter and not cherry-picked from various sources.
Also it needs to be said that my point here is not that Peter Dobson is being dishonest as an evolutionary scientist. On the contrary I find him to be refreshingly candid about his approach to dinosaur science, and feel that his writing is unpretensious and upright.
My point is that what the fossils "tell us" is really what the scientists tell us. And what they tell us is based on what their world view tells them. I find many evolutionary thinkers will readily admit to their bias...they feel confident in doing so because, in their honest opinion, materialistic uniformitarianism and evolutionary biology are the only intellectually viable candidates for truth...and that the only possible alternatives; intelligent design and special creationism, deserve no place at their table of professional speculation.
MC
Compton said
My point is that what the fossils "tell us" is really what the scientists tell us. And what they tell us is based on what their world view tells them. I find many evolutionary thinkers will readily admit to their bias...they feel confident in doing so because, in their honest opinion, materialistic uniformitarianism and evolutionary biology are the only intellectually viable candidates for truth...and that the only possible alternatives; intelligent design and special creationism, deserve no place at their table of professional speculation.
Their worldview is based upon what data they encounter in the observable universe.
On the one hand, I don't understand how some scientists refuse to acknowledge God's hand in the evolution of life - considering the immense complexity and purpose of DNA, its billions of parts of information, and the fact that inanimate matter somehow became animated and then [i]passed on information
And they always use the words "purpose", "information", "code", and other such words to describe things that can't be those things if it all just happened by accident.
My problem with literal 6-24-hour-day creationists is that they acknowledge and use all technologies, medicines, and other goodies that come from modern science yet refuse to acknowledge paleontologists', geologists', and even astronomers' findings when it comes to the age of the Earth and the Universe.
God didn't tell us everything. He lets us discover new things. I'm fine with that.
Good points Cory.
Ironman, my belief is that God created the universe. that God begat life through this creation. that Genesis tells us this and it is the word of God and truthful.
when folks say that if evolution is true, then God is a liar, I think, what blaspheme!!! who are they to explain how God communicates with us?!! and to question the veracity of God's word??
the Bible is full of allegory, parable, story in order to convey deeper meanings and truth. taking Genesis to be literal is to take this means of communicating His Word away from God.
and this is what i mean by the lack of faith which puts God in a box.
God gave us powers of reasoning and observation and expects us to use these. there may be some scientists who believe that the big bang happened without God's Word causing it, but they are also saying that it is possible for something to come out of nothing; that zero is really one. such people are obviously deluding themselves, because they know very well this cannot be true. i don't listen to them either.
but the evidence for the interrelatedness of the animal kingdom (which includes us mammals) is profound. the evidence for the age of the earth and the age of the universe is beyond a reasonable doubt. contrarians, beware! you are laying a faith trap for yourselves and putting a stumbling block in front of others who may otherwise come to and receive God and His Almighty Word!
bub
bub
Cory and bub,
You guys seem to think because you can't believe in Genesis that evolution must be true. These two discussions are not always the same. For me this isn't an either/or proposition.
Regardless of what one believes about Genesis, we should be at least skeptical about evolution's self-directing assertions. Just because modern cosmology is called science doesn't mean it is any more truthful then ancient cosmologies. In fact, for all modern man's utmost confidence in his science and civilization, I don't think modern man has a natural clue of how he really got here.
Cory, I've just quoted a leading paleontologist explaining that much of what they do is not based on observation, but is a synthetic intellectual exercise.
I believe my post below reasonably shows that evolutionist's conduct their science on as much philosophic presupposition as the creationists. By you not even acknowledging this bias, a bias that most professional paleontologists would admit to themselves, aren't you two demonstrating the same dogmatism you believe fundamentalists are guilty of?
Hey what do you know?! A couple of fundamentalists!
:-P
On the one hand, I don't understand how some scientists refuse to acknowledge God's hand in the evolution of life
In all seriousness Cory, with this understanding I believe you place yourself solidly in the Intelligent Design camp. No university-employable evolutionist could risk taking away credit from self-directing natural processes and giving credit to some Dues Ex Machina.
Good conversation guys,
MC
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
bro Mike said:
I believe my post below reasonably shows that evolutionist's conduct their science on as much philosophic presupposition as the creationists. By you not even acknowledging this bias, a bias that most professional paleontologists would admit to themselves, aren't you two demonstrating the same dogmatism you believe fundamentalists are guilty of?Hey what do you know?! A couple of fundamentalists!
:-P
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
How is evolution science as you cannot measure it?
It is based on conjecture, as noone can go back in time.To actually see it take place.
There is no basis for evolution now.
I believe in a litural genesis because of things like Israel and because of my personal realtionship with Jesus.
If Israel or Jewish people did not exist then Jacob would not exist. Then the Jewish people were chosen by God. Which proves the existance of God.
Romans 1 states because they did not know god nor glorify him as god
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared F1 to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience F2 to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with F3 my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with F4 you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among F5 you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain F8 God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
It says in here that because they did not glorify the creator they worshiped less than the creator so not attribuiting the creation to the creator is not glorifying the creator and therefore sin.
1Co 10:14 - Show Context
Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
To not attribuite the seven day creation that god created one thing per day using nothing is not to glorify god or to make god to be less than he infact his. If god is not allpowerful he is not god. To me I like the fact that god created with his words and with our words we can create life and death aswell.
Dominic,
I can tell that you have a good heart for God. But there is no need to prove the existence of God (and in fact, it cannot be done.) God is manifest in all the universe and reveals Himself to those that He chooses and in the manner that He chooses and in the time that He chooses. When this happens, we have a choice to accept Him or reject Him in our lives.
The manner in which God created the earth and all of life is mysterious. Genesis tells us that there was an order and progression to this creation process. Science is one of mankinds means of finding out the details of this process. It does not contradict Genesis, but rather helps us to understand it better.
Bub
Hi Corey
Corey_H wrote:
...My problem with literal 6-24-hour-day creationists is that they acknowledge and use all technologies, medicines, and other goodies that come from modern science yet refuse to acknowledge paleontologists', geologists', and even astronomers' findings when it comes to the age of the Earth and the Universe.
You used this argument before on a previous thread. It doesn't make any more sense now than it did then! You seem to be locked into the idea that believing that God created the world as Genesis says He did is unscientific because so many scientists (most of whom don't believe God exists), deny it more loudly (and get more funding) than those (including agnostic scientists) who don't believe Evolution!
There is a vast difference between practical science (operational science I think is the technical term) and theoretical science that tries to deal with origins.
All useful inventions come from operational science. Many were invented by Christians who take the Bible seriously, and, unlike you, have no intellectual difficulty in believing the Genesis account.
So why shouldn't I make use of modern technology, some of which was invented by those who believe the Bible? As was mentioned in the previous thread, the principle of magnetic resonance imaging, for example, was developed by a creationist.
So, on your reasoning, maybe you should refuse to have a scan if you need one?
If only you sceptics, who prefer to believe man rather than God, would be willing to examine [b][i]the [u]scientific
Why won't you? What are you afraid of?
Are you afraid of [i]real
Afraid of admitting that you have been brainwashed into believing Evolution?
Afraid of discovering that God is infinitely greater than you ever imagined?
in Him
Jeannette
This is a kind of PS
Many Evolutionists seem to find it impossible to get their heads around the fact that the variability of living things is not Evolution, nor is it evidence for Evolution. If anything it's evidence that Evolution is impossible.
Speciation, mutation, adaptive radiation, and other mechanisms that are hailed as proof of Evolution are nothing of the kind, [b]because they all arise from already existing genetic material
There is no increase in complexity, which Evolution absolutely requires. Neither is there evidence that any real increase in complexity is even possible - not in the sense of completely new living systems arising spontaneously.
in Him
Jeannette
Thought this might be of interest, since it deals with some of the issues being discussed here--two Way of the Master Radio segments where Todd Friel interviews Paul Taylor from Answers in Genesis in Scotland.
If you guys have the time I would recommend listening to these, they're very interesting and informative, not to mention edifying.
