Regular Or Hyper

Are you regular, or hyper?

I don't guess that that is really my question so much as this next one, but let me first explain why I am asking the question.

I have debated the issue many times of reformed five point calvinism, and what I have come to find is that when they realize that they can no longer prevail upon me in an argument, or when we have come to a stand still and I express my deep concerns with what they believe and a number of dangerous attitudes for any Christian to have, they always tell me "that what I am referring to is hyper calvinism".

Well, to be quite honest, I have studied both of them, and the only difference that I can see between the two is that a hyper calvinist has come to grips with the theology of calvinism, and accepts it's implications for the damned, that God foreordained them to hell.

While a regular calvinist plays that issue off as though God foreordained everything else in the world through his sovereignty, but on that issue He is excused from responsibility.

So here is the question, or rather 3 of them,

1. If God is totally sovereign in everything as the calvinist says He is, how is He then excused from foreordaining not only the damnation, but also the sin of the damned?

2. If God is not excused from the responsibility of that, then how is He not a wicked God that creates sin for His pleasure?

3. Lastly, are there any other differences between hyper and regular calvinism that I should be aware of?

Please be sure to respond to all three questions, if you cannot do that, the first two are the most important, and are linked together.

1. If God is totally sovereign in everything as the calvinist says He is, how is He then excused from foreordaining not only the damnation, but also the sin of the damned?

He is God.

How is God excused from sentencing people to Hell to begin with?

2. If God is not excused from the responsibility of that, then how is He not a wicked God that creates sin for His pleasure?

God did not commit sin ben, the creature did. God created man good and upright. Adam had a free-will(the only one who did), and thus forfeited the choice of sinning or not sinning.

We could always say, "Why doesn't God eliminate sin now?"

If God had not allowed sin to enter mankind, there would be no need for a Saviour from sin. Seeing that Christ is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the Earth, it is as if God saw all time in one moment, saw th fall, saw the redemption of men, etc.

3. Lastly, are there any other differences between hyper and regular calvinism that I should be aware of?

There are a multitude, but one of the most universal difference is that hyper-Calvinists do not believe the Gospel should be preached to men. Rather they will be brought Christ apart from hearing it.

Of course this is a horrible idea, and is completely contrary to Scripture.

Others differ over if God chose men out of a fallen mass of humanity, or if God chose men before the fall.

Also, you are fibbing a bit, because you say this-

I have debated the issue many times of reformed five point calvinism, and what I have come to find is that when they realize that they can no longer prevail upon me in an argument, or when we have come to a stand still and I express my deep concerns with what they believe and a number of dangerous attitudes for any Christian to have, they always tell me "that what I am referring to is hyper calvinism".

I don't believe I have done this, and ask that you would be more honest among the brethren here.

I hope that charity will prevail, that is usually why I back out of discussions, when it seems that it is going nowhere profitable, or edifying.

I do not care "to be right", simply to get people to look at their Bibles, and see if what they believe and have been taught is true.

You have made up interpretations of things that make your doctrine seem true, such as princes being demons in 1 Corinthians 2, which undermines any point of my discussion. It is like trying to tell someone that the Bible is the authority on matters, when they could care less what the Bible says. You will not get very far.

I have seen that you also have made your own ideas about Romans 1, and probably believe that Romans 9 speaks of nations, and not individuals while forgetting that even if this were the case, nations are made of individuals, thus an elect nation would be made of elect people.

He is God.

How is God excused from sentencing people to Hell to begin with?

That is not the question I asked, God is just in sending anyone to hell who has sinned. God is not just in sending people who are righteous to hell.

You did not answer how God is excused from ordaining sin.

If God is sovereign, (in the calvinist sense) and He has ordained all that has transpired since before time began, then He is responsible for the creation of sin.

If everyone after Adam had their free will taken away, that means God took it away, and is therefore responsible for the sin that they commit. Reason? Because He could have ordained that they keep they're free will.

Adam had free will after he sinned.

The question is very simple, and I will post it again:

1. If God is totally sovereign in everything as the calvinist says He is, how is He then excused from foreordaining not only the damnation, but also the sin of the damned?
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God did not commit sin ben, the creature did. God created man good and upright. Adam had a free-will(the only one who did), and thus forfeited the choice of sinning or not sinning.

We could always say, "Why doesn't God eliminate sin now?"

If God had not allowed sin to enter mankind, there would be no need for a Saviour from sin. Seeing that Christ is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the Earth, it is as if God saw all time in one moment, saw th fall, saw the redemption of men, etc.

This does not answer this question, because the first question was not answered.

The two questions are tied together, and cannot be answered apart from one another.
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There are a multitude, but one of the most universal difference is that hyper-Calvinists do not believe the Gospel should be preached to men. Rather they will be brought Christ apart from hearing it.

Of course this is a horrible idea, and is completely contrary to Scripture.

I have heard this concept as well, but I fail to see much difference between that and regular calvinists, reason being that according to any calvinist I've debated, (God will save who He wants to with or without preaching.)

I have yet to run into a calvinist who can explain to me why I should preach the gospel if what He says is true.

This falls back on what I said about a hyper calvinist having understood what he believes and realizing what it really means.

If the same foundation of God saving who He will regardless of any man's action, exists in both parties, yet one preaches because the scripture says to, and the other one doesn't, isn't the one who doesn't preach simply basing his actions off of that belief. Isn't he merely carrying that belief out to it's fullest extent?
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I don't believe I have done this, and ask that you would be more honest among the brethren here.

I hope that charity will prevail, that is usually why I back out of discussions, when it seems that it is going nowhere profitable, or edifying.

I do not care "to be right", simply to get people to look at their Bibles, and see if what they believe and have been taught is true.

First, I apologize if you thought I was referencing only you, I have had a number of debates with multiple people on this site, and I have debated with a few friends on the issue, I have even asked questions of the pastor at a presbyterian church.

Any time I express what I expressed to you, I get the same answer about hyper calvinism, what I say about the issues bounces right off of them, and it's as though they did not even hear what I said.

If you have not done that, I do apologize, but I was not referring only to you.

You have made up interpretations of things that make your doctrine seem true, such as princes being demons in 1 Corinthians 2, which undermines any point of my discussion. It is like trying to tell someone that the Bible is the authority on matters, when they could care less what the Bible says. You will not get very far.

Um... That isn't made up, nobody that crucifide Christ was a prince physically.

There is only one direction left, that is spiritual, now either Paul was saying that the Jews who killed Him were princes in the spiritual realm, or he was talking about something else. That something else is demons, have you not read about the prince of persia? Or of the principalities and powers of the air?

It is quite obvious that Paul was not calling the sanhedren officials princes, that would be a foolish assumption, and it is equally obvious that he was not calling the roman officials princes. Paul always calls all of these men by their name or official title when addressing them any other place, why would he suddenly call them something that they were not. It does not make any reasonable, or logical sense.

I have seen that you also have made your own ideas about Romans 1, and probably believe that Romans 9 speaks of nations, and not individuals while forgetting that even if this were the case, nations are made of individuals, thus an elect nation would be made of elect people.

Have you read my article that I wrote on Romans 1?

I believe it does talk about nations in Romans 9, however, the issue addressed in Romans 9 is not one of election, but one of whether the gentiles can be saved.

Now, if God has his chosen, are all the Jews, (which are God's "CHOSEN" people) and that are Abraham's descendants saved?

That is not the question I asked, God is just in sending anyone to hell who has sinned. God is not just in sending people who are righteous to hell.

Who of fallen man is righteous except for those in Christ?

Adam had free will after he sinned.

Adam had liberty to decide everyday matters, but that is not what we mean by "free-will", and someone so well versed in Calvinism(as you say you are ) would understand the Biblical and Calvinist view of the bondage of the will.

1. If God is totally sovereign in everything as the calvinist says He is, how is He then excused from foreordaining not only the damnation, but also the sin of the damned?

God is totally sovereign, He is excused in ordaining sin because He did not commit sin Himself. Rather He created an angel who brought sin into mankind. He allowed this under the auspice of the coming of Christ to redeem fallen men.

God does not know evil experientially as man does, therefore to call God evil is to reduce God to a man, or equal to man. Then you can demand of you god that he answer you.

The two questions are tied together, and cannot be answered apart from one another.

I believe they can be, but you simply do not like the answer. You have an agenda, and not a desire to understand what your brothers may believe.

I have yet to run into a calvinist who can explain to me why I should preach the gospel if what He says is true.

Then you must have come across Calvinists who do not read their Bible, or simply overlook the command of God to preach the Gospel to every creature, or to make disciples of all nations.

If the same foundation of God saving who He will regardless of any man's action, exists in both parties, yet one preaches because the scripture says to, and the other one doesn't, isn't the one who doesn't preach simply basing his actions off of that belief. Isn't he merely carrying that belief out to it's fullest extent?

No, he is basing his practice off of a faulty idea of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility.

I might ask you, why do you preach the Gospel?

There is only one direction left, that is spiritual, now either Paul was saying that the Jews who killed Him were princes in the spiritual realm, or he was talking about something else. That something else is demons, have you not read about the prince of persia? Or of the principalities and powers of the air?

Yes brother I have, but the word "archon" appears in 36 verses in the NT. It is used for a leader of a synagogue, the prince of demons, a magistrate, the chief of the pharisees, a ruler(rich young ruler).

Now consider this verse in light of this-
Luke 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

The word "rulers" here is the same word.

I think you may be stretching the text to say it was demons. It does not make sense.

Have you read my article that I wrote on Romans 1?

Most of it

I believe it does talk about nations in Romans 9, however, the issue addressed in Romans 9 is not one of election, but one of whether the gentiles can be saved.

If nations brother, then why this towards the end of the chapter?
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on [b]the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/b]
Romans 9:24 [b]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

What nations are these? and when did God decide nations were called vessels, when the majority of the uses of the word vessel refer to individual people?

Now, if God has his chosen, are all the Jews, (which are God's "CHOSEN" people) and that are Abraham's descendants saved?

No brother, because not all Israel is Israel. That is the point that Paul is making here. In response to the wonderful promises of Romans 8, Paul is responding to those who would ask, "has God's word failed?" Isn't that what Paul writes in verse 6 of Romans 9?

Those who have faith are descendants of Abraham-
Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that [b]they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.[/b]

Galatians 3 addresses this wonderfully.

1. If God is totally sovereign in everything as the calvinist says He is, how is He then excused from foreordaining not only the damnation, but also the sin of the damned?

He is not excused. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

He temps no man to sin. Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. This reveals sin and sin leads to death.

2. If God is not excused from the responsibility of that, then how is He not a wicked God that creates sin for His pleasure?

Romans 9:17-27 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Can God be wicked?

Can God sin?

Does the Christ in you make you Holy?

Can you still sin the sin of Adam?

Did the Cross pay that price?

The heck with Calvin, it is simply, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Christ liveth in me: Phillip

roaringlamb wrote:

Who of fallen man is righteous except for those in Christ?

That is not what I meant by that statement, I was attempting to answer to some degree at least your question from your previous post let's see...

He is God.

How is God excused from sentencing people to Hell to begin with?

My point was that it is not an issue of God being excused from sentencing people to hell. I have no issue with God sending people to hell. If they have refused to believe, then they should go to hell.

I suppose my statement was a little ambiguous, but that was not my intention. I just meant that God is justified in justice, I guess that's a better way to say what I said.
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Adam had liberty to decide everyday matters, but that is not what we mean by "free-will", and someone so well versed in Calvinism(as you say you are ) would understand the Biblical and Calvinist view of the bondage of the will.

Just like temptation to sin is an everyday matter, both for a believer and an unbeliever, salvation is an everyday matter for every human being who is not saved. Every day each person faces their conscience in the light of the truth God has placed in them, and their conscience bears witness in them that they need to repent.

I know very well the issue of bondage that you speak of, but it is not found in scripture, if you make the statement that it is true, then show how it is true, through context, and through support of other in context passages. I have already disproven it through contextual argument in my Romans 1 post, of which none of you responded to. Albeit you may have been busy, but in that post, I have brought many difficult questions to the surface for anyone who wishes to maintain your interpretation of that passage.
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God is totally sovereign, He is excused in ordaining sin because He did not commit sin Himself. Rather He created an angel who brought sin into mankind. He allowed this under the auspice of the coming of Christ to redeem fallen men.

God does not know evil experientially as man does, therefore to call God evil is to reduce God to a man, or equal to man. Then you can demand of you god that he answer you.

So what you are saying is that as long as God is not directly doing sinful things, he is not accountable for them happening, so He would still be righteous if say He created a race of people with the intention that they would commit sin?

That is exactly like saying that if I being a righteous person, send an unrighteous person to murder someone, that I am not guilty of the crime. I would be thrown in jail along with the murderer, because I was the cause of the action.

So in essence, God's intentions have no part in His actions?

I demand no answer of my God, He is just, and equal towards every man, He is full of wrath towards sin, and at the same time a friend to the sinner. Oxymoron-ish I know, but still true.
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I believe they can be, but you simply do not like the answer. You have an agenda, and not a desire to understand what your brothers may believe.

While the first question can be answered without answering the second question, the second cannot be answered without the first. Reason, the second question is based upon the answer of the first regardless of what it is.

You see, the first question gives only two possible answers, God is excused, God is not excused. The second question is asked based off of which of those two answers is given.

You still have yet to answer question #2
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Then you must have come across Calvinists who do not read their Bible, or simply overlook the command of God to preach the Gospel to every creature, or to make disciples of all nations.

No, this is not the case, they know their Bibles well, but they cannot explain to me what my preaching does for a sinner. God is not the author of confusion, but of things that are in order, and make sense. Granted, some things we cannot completely understand such as the trinity, and how it works.

But what purpose does my preaching achieve?

According to what you believe, men are saved before they hear the truth, so what profit does it have?

They are drawn long before I ever preach, so I am not helping to draw them.

And if they ask me, "what must I do to be saved?" it is because they are already saved and they just don't know it yet.

So what purpose does anything I do or say in preaching achieve?
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No, he is basing his practice off of a faulty idea of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility.

I don't understand what you mean here, can you explain it to me a little further please?
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I might ask you, why do you preach the Gospel?

[b][color=FF0000]II Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the (terror) of the Lord, (we persuade men); but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.[/color][/b]

I preach for the same reason that Paul does, because I know the terror of the Lord that awaits those who are not saved, so I therefore likewise persuade men, I myself like Paul himself, persuade men of what the truth is, and when they have heard and understood the truth, then they have to wrestle with the issue of belief in that moment, and they choose either to believe, or not to believe.

If men could not be persuaded of the truth, then Paul would not have said that he persuades them.

I preach, because a 100,000 souls are falling into hell every day, and they need to know the truth that some of them might be persuaded and believe.
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es brother I have, but the word "archon" appears in 36 verses in the NT. It is used for a leader of a synagogue, the prince of demons, a magistrate, the chief of the pharisees, a ruler(rich young ruler).

Now consider this verse in light of this-
Luke 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

The word "rulers" here is the same word.

I think you may be stretching the text to say it was demons. It does not make sense.

Granted, that word means rulers, as well, so maybe it is a little bit of a stretch, I don't know enough greek or hebrew, so I can't give a definitive definition of the word in that passage.

But your point is well noted.
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In reference to my article on Romans 1, there are a number of issues raised in that article, that cannot be quelched with a simple "that's not what it says". Those issues must be addressed, because if the foundation of a belief is not stable, then the whole house will ultimately fail as well.

The issues raised as well, are not merely "my ideas", but rather they are simple conclusions to what is plainly stated in the text. To read into Romans 1 a depravity of the human frame that makes them incapable of responding to God is way to far out, there is a point I bring up about how it says that men "knew" (genosko) intimately God. It might help you to understand some of the things I say a little better.
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If nations brother, then why this towards the end of the chapter?
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

What nations are these? and when did God decide nations were called vessels, when the majority of the uses of the word vessel refer to individual people?

The reason is simple, because Paul is making the argument from about the 3rd chapter of Romans well beyond 9 that salvation now is for the gentiles, and not just the Jews. The Jews argument was, "It is for us as a nation, ourselves, and no one else of any other nation."
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No brother, because not all Israel is Israel. That is the point that Paul is making here. In response to the wonderful promises of Romans 8, Paul is responding to those who would ask, "has God's word failed?" Isn't that what Paul writes in verse 6 of Romans 9?

Those who have faith are descendants of Abraham-
Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3 addresses this wonderfully.

Good point, I don't know how this escaped me.

roaringlamb, my goal here is not one that is ingenuine, but it is one that I want to put these doctrines to the test, and if they fall, they fall, and if they stand, so be it. I have friends who believe on all sides of these issues, and often we discuss and debate these things. Not for the sake of being right, or arguing, but we want to know the truth. We are tired of all the lies.

If you do a study on gnostic gospels, you would be amazed, I think it was thata t the time the Apostle John wrote the book of John, there were between 30 to 40 gnostic gospels.

Now, in present day, the number has skyrocketed to I think somehere around 70,000 to 80,000 gnostic gospels.

So it is my great concern, that with all that going on, and all of them claiming they are the original truth, that I simply divide the word of truth rightly, and not be set back by any false doctrine that may be prevelant today.

christinyou wrote:

Romans 9:17-27 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Do you realize that this whole passage, which is used to back up the doctrine of calvin is based upon the "what if" of Paul?

Paul does not even say that it is so, only what if. A what if, is just not enough for me to form theology off of, what if it isn't true?

Secondly, are you aware that while everyone quotes this passage about pharaoh, he hardened his heart before God twice before it says that God hardened his heart?

I do not believe that passage means exactly what you say it means. Pharaoh's heart was hard before God ever got to hardening it, my best guess is that when God did harden his heart, it was not for the purpose of sending him to hell, because his heart was already hard, but it was for the destruction of his physical body in the sea.

This definition falls into line with what Romans 1 says about God giving a man over for the judgement of his flesh. To destroy the physical body.

My further guess is this, had God not hardened pharaoh's heart, on the last dealing with moses as he had, pharaoh would not have pursued them into the sea. While his heart would remain hard, and he would go to hell, the display of God's glory in overthrowing egypt would not have been as magnanimous as God obviously wanted it.
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Can God be wicked?

Can God sin?

Does the Christ in you make you Holy?

Can you still sin the sin of Adam?

Did the Cross pay that price?

The heck with Calvin, it is simply, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

No, God cannot be wicked, He would no longer be God.

Again, God cannot sin, or He would not be God.

Christ absolutely works in me holiness, as I daily surrender my will, he makes me holy.

I don't understand what you mean by "the sin of adam" I'm confused.

I think the cross question is related to the sin of adam question, so I will wait to answer it.

As far as throwing out calvin and pursuing only Christ, may it be according to your words for the whole world. That they would cease to follow the vain ideologies of men, and have Christ as the supreme teacher of their faith.

Why are we debating this? Go share the Gospel!

Just like temptation to sin is an everyday matter, both for a believer and an unbeliever, salvation is an everyday matter for every human being who is not saved. Every day each person faces their conscience in the light of the truth God has placed in them, and their conscience bears witness in them that they need to repent.

I know very well the issue of bondage that you speak of, but it is not found in scripture, if you make the statement that it is true, then show how it is true, through context, and through support of other in context passages. I have already disproven it through contextual argument in my Romans 1 post, of which none of you responded to. Albeit you may have been busy, but in that post, I have brought many difficult questions to the surface for anyone who wishes to maintain your interpretation of that passage.

Brother the bondage of a man's will is clearly presented through Scripture. Perhaps the highlight is when Scripture says that that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. We know that men are born "flesh", and they cannot re-birth themselves, or make themselves Spiritual. When Paul points out that no man can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit, I believe he is making a wonderful, and encouraging statement. For if man cannot say, "Jesus is Lord" by himself, does this not prove that God must initiate the new birth?

For example, if my natural will is bent on only making left hand turns, and that is all I can do, a new desire must be put within me to make me desire right hand turns. I cannot do this on my own. If then I begin to desire right hand turns, and begin to make right hand turns, all glory is to the one who changed my will, not to me.

But what purpose does my preaching achieve?

I will let Paul speak here-
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; [b]but God gave the increase.[/b]
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Brother it is not our preaching that saves anyone, for without God's work it is all empty words. Christ spoke many things to many people, but not everyone "heard" what He was saying. Remember when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ. Christ said that flesh and blood had not revealed this to him, but rather the Father in Heaven.

Our preaching is the means by which God brings life to people, but He is the One who does it.

They are drawn long before I ever preach, so I am not helping to draw them.

And if they ask me, "what must I do to be saved?" it is because they are already saved and they just don't know it yet.

So what purpose does anything I do or say in preaching achieve?

Brother ben, we must preach to obey God's word. We do not know who God is drawing, but yes you are helping, for how shall they hear without a preacher? We are co-laborers with God.

If someone asks you what I do to be saved, then you say the same thing that Paul said to the Philippian jailer, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." For no one who has not been convicted of sin would even care about being saved. An unconvicted person could care less about being saved, but where the Spirit is working, there is conviction of sin, and need of salvation.

I don't understand what you mean here, can you explain it to me a little further please?

Basically, it is saying that while God in His hidden will has chosen those who will be saved, and He will save them no matter what, in His revealed will, He has said, "go into all the world and preach the Gospel."

This shows that while God is sovereign over everything, man is responsible for his actions. Thus a man who murders someone is responsible for his actions though God allowed the murder to happen.

I preach, because a 100,000 souls are falling into hell every day, and they need to know the truth that some of them might be persuaded and believe.

I admire your zeal brother. Remember though, man alone cannot convince men of the truth. I am sure that as you have shared the Gospel with people in such a way that you were sure they "got it", you have seen them simply walk away as if they never heard a word you said.

However we do not know what will become of what God has spoken to them, as God will accomplish what He will with His words. That is why I say that God MUST awaken, and give life to our hearers.

roaringlamb, my goal here is not one that is ingenuine, but it is one that I want to put these doctrines to the test, and if they fall, they fall, and if they stand, so be it. I have friends who believe on all sides of these issues, and often we discuss and debate these things. Not for the sake of being right, or arguing, but we want to know the truth. We are tired of all the lies.

Oh brother, I too long for discussions on theology.

Allow me to tell you brother I was not always of the "Calvinist" persuasion, and I really don't like the tag, or as Spurgeon called it, a "nickname". I once was involved in a Church, was a youth pastor etc., and decided to study the pre-trib doctrine we so strongly held to.

Eventually, I came to doubt it, I also saw other issues, and I began to teach as the Lord led me. I was asked to either teach the party line, or no longer be in ministry.

When I came to embrace the doctrines of Sovereign grace, I had a friend tell me that I was out of my mind, and that he was concerned for me in spite of the overwhelming Scriptural evidence I was showing him.

In all of this though brother, I have learned the our Lord will graciously guide us. We do not "arrive" one day. There are bumps and bruises that we must experience along the way to buffet our pride, so we may not damage the souls God brings our way.

Brother I thank God for you, and your desire to study Scripture, continue in them, look not just to what you understand brother, but also look at universally accepted truth that the Church has accepted, and held to.

Every blessing to you in Christ.

roaringlamb wrote:

Brother the bondage of a man's will is clearly presented through Scripture. Perhaps the highlight is when Scripture says that that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. We know that men are born "flesh", and they cannot re-birth themselves, or make themselves Spiritual. When Paul points out that no man can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit, I believe he is making a wonderful, and encouraging statement. For if man cannot say, "Jesus is Lord" by himself, does this not prove that God must initiate the new birth?

Although flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit, a man is made up of both, whether his spirit is alive in Christ, or dead in sin, he still has them.

To be dead in sin, simply means that you are not alive in Christ, there are no implications or clear statements that are supported by the whole of scripture that show a man to be incapable of understanding the gospel.

The gospel itself as I have spoken of over and over again, is the power of God unto salvation, it awakens the spirit of those in sin, and they must with their conscience acknowledge the truth.

Then they must believe, and repent. The scripture shows clearly that it is with the gospel that God chooses to save men's souls.

There is no "other element" that is involved. I can't find a clear teaching on this. Oh sure there is a phrase here or there, that may lend themselves towards the idea, but any place of clear cut teaching on the issues of salvation do not hold the idea that a man is regenerated before he is saved. It holds the idea that regeneration is a man being saved.

Now, for what it is worth, if you go out on the streets preaching the gospel, it won't take long for you to hear an unsaved, unregenerate say the words "Jesus is Lord". Albeit mockingly, or just for whatever reason, they do have the ability to say those words without the spirit of God.

Paul was not saying that in such a blanket way, as much as he preached, he would have know this to be true as well. What Paul was saying was that no man can truly call Jesus Lord, and believe it without the spirit of God. At least this is my opinion on this passage, I have seen to many mockeries to believe he could have meant otherwise.

Yes, I believe absolutely that it proves that God must initiate the new birth, but there is no regeneration until the person believes, the gospel is the "initiation", and when met with belief, God regenerates, or saves them.

or example, if my natural will is bent on only making left hand turns, and that is all I can do, a new desire must be put within me to make me desire right hand turns. I cannot do this on my own. If then I begin to desire right hand turns, and begin to make right hand turns, all glory is to the one who changed my will, not to me.

That is where the burning shining light of the gospel steps in and penetrates my darkened left hand turning heart and exposes me to the truth. At which point all glory belongs to God for showing me the truth, if I believe He will save me and then all glory belongs to Him for saving me, what did I do, I surrendered to His will, I knelt in His presence that's all, I exposed my neck to the executioners sword.

I think there is a misconception that if a man is responsible for believing in God, then it somehow robs God of His glory. This is far from true, on the contrary, how much glory does God receive for taking a dead man and giving him the opportunity to believe, and then saving those who humble themselves in the light of the truth?

I have yet to meet a man who was genuinely saved, that would boast of anything to do with his own salvation. You listen to the account of hundreds of freshly saved believers, listen to their testimonies, they glory in nothing, but they praise God for saving them.
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I will let Paul speak here-
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Brother it is not our preaching that saves anyone, for without God's work it is all empty words. Christ spoke many things to many people, but not everyone "heard" what He was saying. Remember when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ. Christ said that flesh and blood had not revealed this to him, but rather the Father in Heaven.

Our preaching is the means by which God brings life to people, but He is the One who does it.

This is my whole point, the preaching is the tool of God by which men will know the truth and believe, and God is the one who saves them.

It is His gospel.

It is His power in the preaching.

It is His power that persuades a man through us.

It is His power that saves a man who will humble himself and believe.

I don't understand at what point that any glory is taken, or robbed of God.

A man wh humbles himself takes no glory, rather he gives it to someone else.

Paul does say that we plant a seed, seeds have life. He says we water, water causes seeds to grow, and God gives the plant life, He gives the seed life. But the seed is the gospel, and the water I would think is either a demonstration of the spirit, or of persuading a man, thereby watering the seed of the gospel.

By all means, the Father revealed that to Peter, but remember, Peter was already a follower of God, and in His own pursuit of knowing God, God revealed the person of Jesus Christ to him. Peter was not an unregenerate soul that was trapped in a body of death that God suddenly broke in upon. He was even so much as to be already a follower of Christ.
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Brother ben, we must preach to obey God's word. We do not know who God is drawing, but yes you are helping, for how shall they hear without a preacher? We are co-laborers with God.

If we are co-laborers, then we have co-work, co-results, co-success, I think the point is clear, if God does absolutely everything, and what I do is absolutely nothing, I mean if He can preach to everyone, then all I am is a pair of legs that runs around on my own, hoping that God gives life. I can have no faith that when I preach he is speaking through me, only that He might speak sometimes, and other times He might not.

If I preach without the power of God speaking through me, then it is dead preaching, and holds no life. Either He has set the gospel with power, or He chooses to allow dead preaching.
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I admire your zeal brother. Remember though, man alone cannot convince men of the truth. I am sure that as you have shared the Gospel with people in such a way that you were sure they "got it", you have seen them simply walk away as if they never heard a word you said.

However we do not know what will become of what God has spoken to them, as God will accomplish what He will with His words. That is why I say that God MUST awaken, and give life to our hearers.

I have, and the cry inside my heart that comes from the spirit of God is heart breaking, and I weep over the state of the man, because though the conviction of the truth was upon him, he hardened his heart to it.

This is why I say as well that God uses the gospel to penetrate to the heart of a man, and convict him of sin. Then God will save the man who repents and believes.
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The gospel is more than just words, it is life, and power, it is the testimony of Christ, God himself, how can a thing like that hold no power in the salvation of a man, I say it must be as witnessed by Paul the power of God unto salvation, that means the gospel is what produces salvation, God does the saving, but the gospel causes men to be saved.

If I cannot have faith that it is that when preached, I would be better off not preaching.

If it salvation is only for only a select few, I have no assurance that He hears my prayers for my loved ones.
Why do you interp the Scriptures to have such a lousy god?

This god is impotent! unloving, cruel hateful, unjust, devilish.
If you ever told Calvins doctrins to an unsaved, they will hate this god as I do, and do noy say that he will hate God because he is not "regenerated"; I am saved("regenerated") and hate him, why would you expect an unsaved man to love him.
Even with this so called "regenerated heart" one could not love him.
I do not know how you love him.
He hates your loved ones that are pre-determined for hell.
He might even hate your spouse or children.
How do you sleep at night when you know that God might hate the very one you love?

Yes you do not know if he does or not love anyone, but even the thought of a chance that he hates(Not electing to salvation frome the foundation of the earth) would have me retching.

You couldn't even beg him to love some one that he has already made his mind up to hate.

This doctrine has no assurance by this god's love, because his love is not infinite!

roaringlamb:
God did not commit sin ben, the creature did. God created man good and upright. Adam had a free-will(the only one who did), and thus forfeited the choice of sinning or not sinning.

If God had not allowed sin to enter mankind, there would be no need for a Saviour from sin.

There are a multitude, but one of the most universal difference is that hyper-Calvinists do not believe the Gospel should be preached to men. Rather they will be brought Christ apart from hearing it.

God is totally sovereign, He is excused in ordaining sin because He did not commit sin Himself.

Rather He created an angel who brought sin into mankind. He allowed this under the auspice of the coming of Christ to redeem fallen men.

God does not know evil experientially as man does.

when did God decide nations were called vessels,

when the majority of the uses of the word vessel refer to individual people?

This verse is telling us that we ourselves choose what kind of vessel we may be.

Those who have faith are descendants of Abraham-
Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Therefore, it is God's fault for them not repenting and having faith, and for that reason it is God's fault for them going to hell.

It is Gods fault for creating a world to have sin.

It is Gods fault for man's fall, just so HE can save only some.

It is Gods fault for man condemnation, He had Adam's sin to make all mankind guilty.

It is Gods fault that man deos not repent or have faith, it is HE who must first give it.

It is Gods fault for man in hell, He could have save all.

Christinyou wrote:
1. If God is totally sovereign in everything as the calvinist says He is, how is He then excused from foreordaining not only the damnation, but also the sin of the damned?

He is not excused. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

He temps no man to sin. Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

2. If God is not excused from the responsibility of that, then how is He not a wicked God that creates sin for His pleasure? Romans 9:17-27...

Can God be wicked?

Can God sin?

Does the Christ in you make you Holy?

Can you still sin the sin of Adam?

Did the Cross pay that price?

If it salvation is only for only a select few, I have no assurance that He hears my prayers for my loved ones.

Why, are you God? Do you know that your loved ones will not be saved?

God hears every one of His children's prayers, and it is a good indication that usually the burden is because of God's desire to do something.

If you do not believe that God can save your family, then that is a lack of belief on your part, not a lack of ability on God's part.

Only God knows who He will save, and who He will not, and that is not something for us to peer into. We must pray, and preach, and love our neighbor as ourselves because that is the revealed will of God to us in His word, as is the fact that He will not save all men.

This god is impotent! unloving, cruel hateful, unjust, devilish.
If you ever told Calvins doctrins to an unsaved, they will hate this god as I do, and do noy say that he will hate God because he is not "regenerated"; I am saved("regenerated") and hate him, why would you expect an unsaved man to love him.
Even with this so called "regenerated heart" one could not love him.
I do not know how you love him.
He hates your loved ones that are pre-determined for hell.
He might even hate your spouse or children.
How do you sleep at night when you know that God might hate the very one you love?

Well brother, I would caution you as unsaved men do hate God, and until the heart is changed they will continue to do so.

I love God because He first loved me, and caused me to see my great need for Christ, and His forgiveness of sins in Him, and the promise of new life and an eternal home when I leave this temporal one. Had God not intervened, I would never have been inclined to even think of Christ, or even think I had a need of a Savior. I surely never would have seen that I was a sinner except the Holy Spirit showed me.

I do pray and plead for my loved ones to be saved. However I also understand that so long as they are outside of Christ, they are condemned, and though they may seem like the greatest people in the world, their belief that they are "good" people is what keeps them from seeing their need of Christ. I cannot do away with this, neither can they, but God can arrange circumstances to bring them to despair in themselves and cry out to Him.

According to you, It is God's fault for making it so that Adam's sin condems all to hell before thay are even born.

It is not God's fault at all, but rather man's. Man had a choice to trust God, and obey Him, or to seek his own ideas of good and evil apart from God. Adam decided to de-god God, and make himself like god to know good and evil.

All who are born into this world are under condemnation brother, Scripture shows this, and apart from Christ, there would be no hope at all. Man could not save himself. Have you ever thought about that? What would man have done if there were no Savior?

God is not responsible for Adam's sin, Adam and all of his relatives(this includes us)are.

Perhaps you think that you would not have sinned in the Garden, but because you too are a sinner, you would have, as would I, as would anyone.

Now that would be a tragedy!
God wants man to sin only for the reason to save man?
That is equvalent to shooting your wife or child only for the reason of saving his life.

Well, why don't you tell me why sin exists brother?

Did it catch God by surprise when He wasn't looking? Did God forget to factor into the equation that man would fall, and in His love for mankind, He would provide a Savior. So then because of this if any are saved, we should be thankful, as none deserve to be saved, but would justly be damned instead?

If you for a second believe that God perhaps did not see sin entering mankind, or that it caught Him by surprise, then you stand in contrast to the Scriptures and do not believe in the God of the Bible who is all-knowing.

Yah, That would mean that man has no part in his relationship with Christ.

Please do not misrepresent my view, man can do nothing to establish or instigate this relationship. But the new heart bears the fruit of repentance and faith, which are key to the relationship, and allow God to call us children. Just as the new born does nothing to bring itself into the world, however the proof of life is the breathing and crying.

Not all people are God's children.

According to you, He could have made a world without sin, but didn't.
That is equivalent to:
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.
If God could make a world with no sin but creates a world with sin anyway, that would be knowing to do good, and doing it not, to God it is sin.

How is it that you will throw a verse up completely out of context, and say, "see, see you are wrong." But if I put a verse up in its context, you scurry to make a different meaning for it?

Here are some questions for you-

Does sin exist in our world today?

Did God create this world?

Could God have not allowed sin to enter the human race?

According to you, He must have wanted Lucifer to sin, otherwise HE wouldn't be "sovereign"
The "auspice" would be evil in that HE wanted man to sin.

I don't know if I would say God wanted man to sin, but I do know that if God did not wish for sin to be in existence, it would not be.

Again you are so tied to defense of man, that you would rather fling mud upon God than realize that man is really a vile creature apart from Christ. No matter what "goodness" any of us have, Christ is the only way any of us are entering Heaven.

However, this god surly wanted sin to exist. Therefore by HIS "sovereignty" he made it be.

A man is a sinner and his actions bear that out. The heart puts forth actions. God is not a sinner, and thus does not commit sin. God is holy, He is good, everything He does is for His good pleasure.

How you can attribute sin to God, I do not know.

2Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and fit for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This verse is telling us that we ourselves choose what kind of vessel we may be.

Is it written to an unsaved person?

Have fun telling God what vessel you will be, and what vessel you will not be, as He alone determines that as He gives gifts to men as He wills, not as we will.

Also where in this do you see, "man has free will because he is morally good, and can choose God anytime he pleases apart from any working of God first"?

According to you, it is God who decides who has faith and who doesn't

According to Scripture it is this way.

Therefore, it is God's fault for them not repenting and having faith, and for that reason it is God's fault for them going to hell.

None deserve to be given anything at all, so if God chooses to save whom He desires, He is still good and just. God does not owe man, He is not in debt to man, it is the other way around.

It is Gods fault for creating a world to have sin.

No, man sinned, and continued sinning, God in His mercy created a way for man to be saved from sin.

It is Gods fault for man's fall, just so HE can save only some.

The fall has happened, and not all will be saved, these are truths that cannot be changed.

God is not the one who caused the fall, man did, and again you need to stop looking at man at innocent, and deserving of God's grace.

It is called grace, because man does not deserve it. If we deserved it, it would cease to be grace, and be a reward because we deserve it.

It is Gods fault for man condemnation, He had Adam's sin to make all mankind guilty.

Again, no man is the one who sinned. Adam was a man and sin has passed on through his descendants. If you know of another race other than that of mankind, perhaps they might be innocent, but we descend from Adam.

It is Gods fault that man does not repent or have faith, it is HE who must first give it.

Yes God must give faith, but man is not innocent and in a place where he can call God unjust for not doing so. Creation, and conscience condemn those who do not believe.

It is not like those who will be lost are going to complain that they were searching for the true God in this life, and He withheld Himself from them.

It is Gods fault for man in hell, He could have save all.

It's man's fault, but either way, you still must answer the question, why doesn't God save all? He could in a second couldn't He?

roaringlamb wrote:

If it salvation is only for only a select few, I have no assurance that He hears my prayers for my loved ones.

Why, are you God? Do you know that your loved ones will not be saved?

God hears every one of His children's prayers, and it is a good indication that usually the burden is because of God's desire to do something.

If you do not believe that God can save your family, then that is a lack of belief on your part, not a lack of ability on God's part.

Only God knows who He will save, and who He will not, and that is not something for us to peer into...
...He will not save all men.

Well brother, I would caution you as unsaved men do hate God, and until the heart is changed they will continue to do so.

I love God because He first loved me, and caused me to see my great need for Christ, and His forgiveness of sins in Him, and the promise of new life and an eternal home when I leave this temporal one

According to you, It is God's fault for making it so that Adam's sin condems all to hell before thay are even born.

It is not God's fault at all, but rather man's.

Man had a choice to trust God, and obey Him, or to seek his own ideas of good and evil apart from God.

All who are born into this world are under condemnation brother,

God is not responsible for Adam's sin, Adam and all of his relatives(this includes us)are.

Well, why don't you tell me why sin exists brother?

Did it catch God by surprise when He wasn't looking? Did God forget to factor into the equation that man would fall, and in His love for mankind, He would provide a Savior. So then because of this if any are saved, we should be thankful, as none deserve to be saved, but would justly be damned instead?

If you for a second believe that God perhaps did not see sin entering mankind, or that it caught Him by surprise, then you stand in contrast to the Scriptures and do not believe in the God of the Bible who is all-knowing.

Please do not misrepresent my view, man can do nothing to establish or instigate this relationship.

Not all people are God's children.

How is it that you will throw a verse up completely out of context, and say, "see, see you are wrong." But if I put a verse up in its context, you scurry to make a different meaning for it?

Here are some questions for you-

Does sin exist in our world today?

Did God create this world?

Could God have not allowed sin to enter the human race?

I don't know if I would say God wanted man to sin, but [b]I do know that if God did not wish for sin to be in existence, it would not be.[/b]

Again you are so tied to defense of man,

that you would rather fling mud upon God than realize that man is really a vile creature apart from Christ.

A man is a sinner and his actions bear that out. The heart puts forth actions. God is not a sinner, and thus does not commit sin. God is holy, He is good, everything He does is for His good pleasure

2Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor....

Is it written to an unsaved person?

Have fun telling God what vessel you will be, and what vessel you will not be, as He alone determines that as He gives gifts to men as He wills, not as we will.

Also where in this do you see, "man has free will because he is morally good, and can choose God anytime he pleases apart from any working of God first"?

According to you, it is God who decides who has faith and who doesn't

According to Scripture it is this way.

Therefore, it is God's fault for them not repenting and having faith, and for that reason it is God's fault for them going to hell.

None deserve to be given anything at all, so if God chooses to save whom He desires, He is still good and just. God does not owe man, He is not in debt to man, it is the other way around.

It is Gods fault for creating a world to have sin.

No, man sinned, and continued sinning, God in His mercy created a way for man to be saved from sin.

God is not the one who caused the fall, man did, and again you need to stop looking at man at innocent, and deserving of God's grace.

It is Gods fault for man condemnation, He had Adam's sin to make all mankind guilty.

Again, no man is the one who sinned.

Adam was a man and sin has passed on through his descendants.

Yes God must give faith, but man is not innocent and in a place where he can call God unjust for not doing so. Creation, and conscience condemn those who do not believe.

It's man's fault, but either way, you still must answer the question, why doesn't God save all? He could in a second couldn't He?

He has already preselected the ones HE wants to heven and hell. Even the thought of a chance that he hates one of my loved ones would send shivers down my spine, for there is a chance that they are doomed to dispare, just because HE wanted them in hell.

Brother you still look at all men as good and deserving of salvation. Yes it is very hard to know that some of my loved ones, or my in-laws may not enter Heaven. However I cannot blame God for this, for they are sinners, and have offended my Father, and have committed crimes against Christ.

Perhaps this why Jesus said a house would be divided.

People do not go to hell because God wants them there, they go there because they are sinners, and want nothing to do with God. Like Adam and Eve they think they know what is good, and what is evil. They do not need God, and are not concerned about their offense to Him.

No, He wouldn't here the prayer to save one HE has already predetermind to hell.

If someone is praying to be saved, then God has already begun to work in that person to bring them to faith in Christ. There are not any people who asked to be saved, who will be turned away. God creates the desire, and He does not do so to torment or tease.

No natural person out of the blue decides to pray to be saved, and God will not deny any that come to Him through Christ.

It's not a matter of faith, jJust grasping a hold of reality if the god of Calvin(your god) exists.
Furthermore, it not a matter if HE can but if HE will.
How could one truly belive a prayer for an unsaved if God there is a chance that God has already pre-determind that one to hell.

Well isn't there also a chance for them to go to Heaven?

Has not God commanded us to pray?

And again, are you God, and do you know who is among the elect and who is not?

We know that the revealed will of God is that not all men will be saved, we also know from the revealed will of God that we are to pray and preach the Gospel.

It is in the hidden will of God that we find who will and who will not be saved. But that is not for us to look into. It is much like the timing of Christ's return- we know that Christ will return, this is revealed in Scripture. Yet we do not know the timing of His return for that is in the hidden will of God.

The truth is that HE can not save all.
I hate that God that will not save or chooses not to. That would mean he is cold and heartless.

Then you hate the God of Scripture, and I cannot help you with that.

Please ask yourself why you think man is so good, and why God owes salvation to any man at all.

Your one of the lucky ones, The elite.

No brother I am one of the most undeserving of God's grace. For I was a murderer, an adulterer, a thief, pretty much every crime against God I had committed. If it was not for His grace, I never would have chosen Him.

I used to stand on stages, and proudly announce the stupidity of Christianity, and the greatness of anything else.

I cannot boast of salvation brother for I am no better than anyone else, it was not my choice because I was somehow more inclined to spiritual matters. God and God alone reached down and pulled me out of the garbage that I loved, and changed me so I would love Him.

NO, it is God's!
According to you, He is the one who put the law into existance that all men would be guilty of Adam's sin.

God did put the Law into existence. Men were guilty of sin before the Law came as well.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Paul is showing that even before the Law came, death was upon all men as the penalty for sin even though they had not committed the same sin as Adam did.

According to you, no one has a choice to trust God, its all up to Him to give them the ability.

Yes, for there are none who seek God, no not one.

Thats my point, according to you, God made it that way.
Adam didn't make the law that his sin would condemn the world to hell.

The Law is to drive people out of themselves, to show them their need for Christ. It was never a means of justification.

All men are condemned because they do not believe in Christ, that is the issue for even if a man could keep the Law perfectly but did not accept God's means of salvation through His Son, those works would only condemn him, because he is trying to find another way into Heaven when Jesus said, "I am the way".

according to you, God God wanted Adam to sin just for the purpose of saving man, with God's sovraignty, HE made sure that Adam sined.
The truth is that death passed to all mankind, not sin.

God did not want Adam to sin, He wanted Adam to continue in fellowship with Him. Adam wanted to sin and used his freedom(the only one who truly had free will) to sin against God.

Death is a proof of the guilt brother, for if there was no death, then there wold be no sin and vice versa. Death is a part of the curse this world is under because of the fall in the Garden.

It is a logical imposability for sin not to exist with the free will of man.

Where did sin come from? Please answer this question.

a HE made sure of that.

No, man made sure of it by allowing himself to be "children of the devil" and because seeks to do the works of their father the devil, and until a man is born from above, he is not a child of God.

Yes.
yes.
No!

Can you explain to me how God could not have kept sin from entering the world if He did not wish for it to be here?

Jesus has that job.
But actualy, I am attempting to show the absurdity of your view.

That is not at all what I meant. Your view of man's innocence is completely unscriptural. For you make God to be unfair because all men are not saved.

You seem to be offended that God would dare have any right over His creation. In effect, it is ok for men to perish so long as they choose to do so, but if God actually determines who gets in and who doesn't, then that is unfair.

What of the man who came to wedding feast with his own garment on, but was asked to leave? The lord of the feast had every right to decide that this guest was not welcome there, or do you think he was unfair and should have let him in anyways?

Why would HE wish it to exist?
surly not just so HE can save.

Yep, why did God allow the people of Israel to toil in Egypt for 400 hundred years? Was it not to provide a deliverer? Why did Joseph endure false imprisonment, and abandoning by his brothers? Was it not part of the process of bringing Israel into Egypt?

Did God not know the pain and toil that would await those people during their 400 years of service to Egypt?

God does what He does with His pleasure in mind, and His purpose. However He is good, and gracious even to those who hate Him. Ever notice how many unbelievers do not think twice about where their heart beat comes from, or their breath? These are God's mercy to them.

Can a christian be a vessel of dishonor?

The vessel of dishonour here is a false professor, or one who speaks evil of the Gospel etc. as Paul is speaking of the Church(the great house).

"If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor"
Sounds like ones choice to me.

The "these" are Hymenaeus and Philetus
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

Why were they to purge themselves from these men?
2Ti 2:18 [b]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[/b]

The some were perhaps not true believers, and that is why Paul goes on-
2Ti 2:19 [b]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.[/b] And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The iniquity here being false teaching, and those who espouse it.

But notice the Lord knows who are His.

According to you, We are only God's pupetts. but anyone(exept for you) can see free will there.

Only if you twist it out of context, and try to force your tradition or ideology upon it.

According to you, God made it sure that we don't deserve anything, HE had Adam's sin to pass on to all mankind.
It wasn't Adam's choice to pass his sin to anybody.

Either way brother, once a sin is committed we are guilty. The sin comes from within, no one needs to teach us how to disobey God, it is there when we are born into this world.

Even little children have sin, and show when they say, "mine" and jerk toys away from other children, or when they hit another child because they are not getting their way.

We sin because our heart is full of sin.

According to you, God wished for Adam to sin, only for the purpose of saving him.
If God wished for Adam to sin, it is Gods fault for creating a world to have sin.

Here are two facts that you are refusing to address-
1-Adam sinned against God
2-God could have never allowed sin into mankind

What you do not see is that man left to his own choice will choose sin as Adam did. But God provided a way of salvation for man even thought He did not need to. He could have left us to perish, to never know Him.

According to you, it was God's aovreignty that made it all happen.

God allowed it to happen, as He knew it would. Nothing in this caught God by surprise, He knew it would happen before He even formed the Earth.

According to you, God made that law.

Brother was it not God who told Adam, "in the day that you eat of that tree, you shall surely die"?

But Adam did it anyway.

Adam had a free will as he had never been stained with sin, and yet with that free will he chose to sin.

Man was warned of the consequences, yet did not care. It is not God's doing, it is His allowing.

According to you, those poor souls that are destined to sin never had a chance because God hated them & didn't give the faith.

I do not know which souls are going to be saved, and which ones are not. All men will sin, they are born with that promise, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

All men deserve God's punishment,not His blessing, yet in His wondrous grace, He allows life, prosperity, happiness even to those who will not be saved.

Because HE can't.

Why not? If all men are "good" and deserve to be saved, what keeps God from saving them?

Is it really that puny and powerless thing called free will? That thing that does not exist?

How can the will that loves sin, and desires to please itself, that loves itself more than God or its neighbor be "free".

Perhaps the chains are invisible to you, but a man is enslaved to his sin until his will is renewed and he is made to see that he has rebelled against God.

No natural man can do this.

roaringlamb wrote:

He has already preselected the ones HE wants to heven and hell. Even the thought of a chance that he hates one of my loved ones would send shivers down my spine, for there is a chance that they are doomed to dispare, just because HE wanted them in hell.

Brother you still look at all men as good and deserving of salvation. Yes it is very hard to know that some of my loved ones, or my in-laws may not enter Heaven. However I cannot blame God for this, for they are sinners, and have offended my Father, and have committed crimes against Christ.

People do not go to hell because God wants them there, they go there because they are sinners, and want nothing to do with God.

No, He wouldn't here the prayer to save one HE has already predetermind to hell.

If someone is praying to be saved, then God has already begun to work in that person to bring them to faith in Christ.

It's not a matter of faith, just grasping a hold of reality if the god of Calvin(your god) exists.

Well isn't there also a chance for them to go to Heaven?

We know that the revealed [b]will of God[/b] is that [b]not all men[/b] will be saved,

The truth is that HE can not save all.
I hate that God that will not save or chooses not to. That would mean he is cold and heartless.

Then you hate the God of Scripture, and I cannot help you with that.

Please ask yourself why you think man is so good, and why God owes salvation to any man at all.

Your one of the lucky ones, The elite.

No brother I am one of the most undeserving of God's grace.

If it was not for His grace, I never would have chosen Him.

NO, it is God's!
According to you, He is the one who put the law into existance that all men would be guilty of Adam's sin.

God did put the Law into existence. Men were guilty of sin before the Law came as well.

According to you, no one has a choice to trust God, its all up to Him to give them the ability.

Yes, for there are none who seek God, no not one.

Thats my point, according to you, God made it that way.
Adam didn't make the law that his sin would condemn the world to hell.

The Law is to drive people out of themselves, to show them their need for Christ. It was never a means of justification.

All men are condemned because they do not believe in Christ,

God did not want Adam to sin, He wanted Adam to continue in fellowship with Him.

Death is a proof of the guilt brother, for if there was no death, then there wold be no sin and vice versa.

Where did sin come from? Please answer this question.

It is a logical imposability for sin not to exist with the free will of man.

Not all people are God's children.

a HE made sure of that.

No, man made sure of it by allowing himself to be "children of the devil" and because seeks to do the works of their father the devil, and until a man is born from above, he is not a child of God.

Can you explain to me how God could not have kept sin from entering the world if He did not wish for it to be here?

Again you are so tied to defense of man,

Jesus has that job.
But actualy, I am attempting to show the absurdity of your view.

That is not at all what I meant. Your view of man's innocence is completely unscriptural.

For you make God to be unfair because all men are not saved.

This god you worship condemns people before thay are even born, before the actual crime.
Manipulates man by telling them not to sin and secritly wishes sin to exist only for the purpose of savng a few.

You seem to be offended that God would dare have any right over His creation.

In effect, it is ok for men to perish so long as they choose to do so, but if God actually determines who gets in and who doesn't, then that is unfair.

What of the man who came to wedding feast with his own garment on, but was asked to leave? The lord of the feast had every right to decide that this guest was not welcome there, or do you think he was unfair and should have let him in anyways?

"If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor"

The "these" are Hymenaeus and Philetus
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

According to you, We are only God's pupetts. but anyone(exept for you) can see free will there.

Only if you twist it out of context, and try to force your tradition or ideology upon it.

Either way brother, [b]once a sin is committed[/b] we are guilty.

The sin comes from within, no one needs to teach us how to disobey God, it is there when we are born into this world.

Even little children have sin, and show when they say, "mine" and jerk toys away from other children, or when they hit another child because they are not getting their way.

We sin because our heart is full of sin.

Here are two facts that you are refusing to address-
1-Adam sinned against God
2-God could have never allowed sin into mankind

What you do not see is that man left to his own choice will choose sin as Adam did.

But God provided a way of salvation for man even thought He did not need to. He could have left us to perish, to never know Him.

God allowed it to happen, as He knew it would. Nothing in this caught God by surprise, He knew it would happen before He even formed the Earth.

I do not know which souls are going to be saved, and which ones are not. All men will sin, they are born with that promise, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

All men deserve God's punishment,not His blessing, yet in His [b]wondrous grace[/b], He allows life, prosperity, happiness even to those who will not be saved.

why doesn't God save all? He could in a second couldn't He?

Because HE can't.

Why not? If all men are "good" and deserve to be saved, what keeps God from saving them?

No, I see God judging before the crime of sin even was commited.
Pre-determining who will go to hell and heaven is judgment before the crime.

Only if you are limited to a temporal view of things. But God is not limited as we are. He knows all things that will be, that could be, and that have been.

In effect, God looks at a lump of fallen sinful men, and chooses to save some of them. What that number is we do not know, and again we should thank Him for His grace in saving any out of this fallen mass.

Why in the he77 does He judge them to hell before they even sin then?
Why did HE make a law that Adam's sin would pass through to all mankind? (I am using your theology)

He doesn't, all men are born sinners, and the acts of sin they commit show that they are.

I don't know, why did He make another law that all who were in Christ would be counted as righteous?

I am talking about those whop have no desire but one is praying for that man.
God might have preselected him to damnation, therefore He will not hear the prayer.

Well we don't know who is and who isn't, so we should pray for them. It's not for us to know, so don't try to.

So, your saiy that faith if God answering the prayer to save a lot one is base on chance?

I cannot figure out what you are saying here.

I know that you twist the scripture, but here it is anyway:
2Peter 3:9b not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Brother if proper exegetical interpretation is "twisting", then I am guilty.

We have been through this before, and as the text proves, it is speaking of the elect to whom Peter is writing to.

It does not mean that poor old God cannot do something that He really really wants to do apart from man's help.

I don't think man is good the way you think I do.
I know that man can choose to have faith and repent as the command says(Act 17:30).
If you call that as man being good, then your wrong.

Brother you have continued to call God unfair for judging those who have sinned against Him, and you have called God a tyrant for condemning men who will not believe in Christ.

You are more willing to defend man, than to stand upon God's truth.

Wrong law. I am talking about the law that god made Adam to be the Federal Headship as you declaire.

It's not what I declare, it is what the Bible teaches.

Representation in another is not uncommon to us. If you work for a company and they send you as a representative, you are there on behalf of the company, and make decisions for them.

It is the same with Adam, he was our representative in the Garden. Christ was the representative for all who will be saved on Calvary. He was made to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

This is why it is imperative that we see the imputation principle throughout Scripture.

This god you claim made sure of that.
However, in reality there are people who seek the truth and find God in the prosess.

So in the light of Scripture, you say contrary? There are none that seek Him, no not one, but you say that God is wrong here?

Anyone "seeking" is being drawn by God, and that is why they come to faith in Christ- "no man can come to me except the Father which has sent me draws him."

That is because the god you claim refuses to "regenerate" them.
How can they believe in Christ if this god does not first initiate?

All men are condemned because they are sinners, and their deeds show this to be so. Apart from God's restraining their wickedness, this world would be even more wicked than it presently is.

Now your going back on what you told me.
you said god wish for sin to be. and that is only for the purpose of saving him.

God allowed sin to enter humanity, if He did not want it to happen, it wouldn't have. yet God knew also at the time of the fall and even before it, that it would cost Him the life of His Son to redeem men, and still allowed it to be so.

This can only show His amazing love for us.

No, phisical death is the proof of the circumstance of Adam's sin.
Spiritual death is the proof of the guilt, that only comes from ones own sin, not Adam's.

Well than either way bot h point to the universal guilt, as all die physically, and all are dead spiritually until re-born.

No one is born spiritual(John the Baptist is an exception) and then forfeit their spirituality by sinning.

Men are not born a "blank slate" and can be swayed by whatever is written upon them. They are already fallen and subject to the curse of the fall which is death, illness, pain, selfishness, etc.

Man's wrong use of free will.

Yep Adam misused his free will when tempted by Satan, and we all suffer from this same curse.

Did you ever stop to think that Christ had to endure the temptation of Satan to recover that which was lost in the Garden when Adam gave into the temptation?

Seems that you can't keep you theology right.
God only chooses those HE want, therefore He makse sure not to make those He dosn't want as God's children.
If God mande it so that Adam is the "Federal Headship" so that his sin will condemn all mankind. then how is it that "man made sure of it by allowing himself to be 'children of the devil"
According to you, God made man of the devil before he was born by the "Federal Headship of Adam"

I do not really understand what you're saying in the first part. God will save those whom He chosen , and what I do not understand is why you automatically assume that this means very few will be saved, or who will be saved and who will not be saved.

As Adam followed Satan's ways rather than God's, so too all who are in Adam will do the same, further proving the connection between Adam's sin being ours as well. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were of their father the devil and desired to do his deeds, meanwhile they were trying to boast in their natural lineage from Abraham. The first birth does not fit us for Heaven brother, only the new birth.

Your the one who is unscriptural, making dotrines out of what you shouldn't.
I am not making man innocent after he sins. I am only making people innocent before thay sin.

Who hasn't sinned?

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" I don't why you make "all" mean everyone when it suits you, but not when it doesn't.

We can logically see that all men have sinned, all human beings suffer from sin, all are under the curse of sin.

This god you worship condemns people before thay are even born, before the actual crime.
Manipulates man by telling them not to sin and secritly wishes sin to exist only for the purpose of savng a few.

God exists outside of time brother, and time is His creation. He knows everything.

Brother while you disagree with me, you still must address why God would create men knowing they would perish. And if there were such a thing as free will to resist or choose God, would you not desire God to override your will and save you?

The bottom line still exists, that God creates men knowing that not all of them will be saved, so either He is cruel because He does not override their will and make them believe, or (as you say) He is cruel to save only some who were doomed for the start.

No, I am offended at you for presenting God to go against the basic reality of Justice(not fairness!) presenting God to NOT be all loving and only finite in grace.

Brother do you really desire justice from God? If He gave us justice, none of us would be saved because we have all sinned. Criminals do not hope for justice, but rather grace.

Justice has been satisfied by Christ dying for all who will believe, and that justifies them before God.

No, it is unjust, please learn the diference.
If you do, I will try to spell better.

How is it unjust for the Judge to declare who will receive pardon and who will not?

In a courtroom, none dare accuse the judge of unfairness if he decides to pardon one and not another especially if all were guilty of the crimes they were brought in for.

However someone must pay for our crimes as we cannot pay for them ourselves, and Christ has fully payed for those crimes, so that God can justify us and call us children and not enemies.

Someone has to fulfill the righteousness demanded by God, and since man cannot then it cannot be man who fulfills it.

He chose to were his own when he knoew that he neede to were the one given. no injustice there.

Then why do you say it is unjust for God not to save those who seek their own righteousness as a means to salvation, or who care not one bit about Christ, and would rather sin, and create a god in their own image?

Are these not all fruits of their wicked hearts?

If God leaves them alone, they will continue on in these things never even stopping to think about their offense before their Creator.

Still, there is choioce as anyone but you can plainly see.

But brother this passage has nothing to do with salvation. Rather it is written to a saved man who has the ability to work with God as God wills and does His good pleasure in him.

Then why does your god condemn before the foundation of the Earth?
Why are we guilty "in Adam"?
Why the spiritual death before the sin actualy commited?

Because God has already seen the end from the beginning, and knows exactly who will be saved and who will not be.

We are all guilty because we all sin. We sin because we are sinners. Out of our hearts come forth what we are.

No one has to be told the murder, theft, & lying is wrong. This knowledge is there when we are born into this world.

So then when we lie, are we not going against our conscience and breaking the law proving that we are justly condemned?

Children lie brother. Many young children when asked if they did something will blame it on someone else, or lie about it.

Now what was Adam's response to being confronted to his sin? Did he not blame someone else? "It was the woman you gave me" Eve of course followed suit, "the serpent deceived me."

It is completely unnatural for us to admit our sin, and thus it must be worked in us by the Holy Spirit. We would rather sew fig leaves together and try to establish our own righteousness, than to have God provide skins for us to cover our filth.

ARe they accountable to God whom they can not comprehend?

Are they sinning?

I personally believe that children to young to comprehend the Gospel are regenerated when they die and are among God's elect.

1- God wanted him to(according to you) Therefore, in God's sovregnty, He made Adam to sin.
2- He would have made puppets &/or robots

God allowed sin.

We are puppets though brother. Either to sin and the devil, or to God and His truth.

An unsaved man can only respond to the sinful tugs of his strings.

A godly man much like Adam before the fall can choose to either sin, or obey God.

According to you, in god's limited love and finite grace, he provided a way of salvation for only a few, and took pesure in making most to perish, to never know Him.

But you are starting from the wrong place. All men are guilty and can only look forward to judgment. Therefore if God did not save any, he would still be just, holy, and blameless.

Now onto the second point. How do you know who will be saved and who will not? Do you know the number of the elect? Do you know that most people will perish?

You cannot base your ideas upon something you do not know, and you cannot play God.

Free will of man resisting Him is the reason that HE can't save all men.
Your so called "regeneration" is a myth.
I never say that man is "good" and He is only deserving to be saved because he is made in the image of God and because God's infinite love obligates Him to save, for that is HIS nature. His name even means: savior; deliverer = Jesus

So you mean to tell me that puny man can resist God, and that this made up idea of a free will can stop God from doing His will in this world?

I wonder if Paul's will was cooperating with God when he was struck down o the way to Damascus. Hmm, seems Paul's will was set on killing Christians, not being saved.

Regeneration is a myth now? i guess Christ did not know what He was speaking of when He spoke of the new birth, or Paul when he said a man is made a new creature in Christ, or any of the other passages that speak of God re-birthing man into His Son, and making them spiritual.

The image of God that was in the original man has been marred by the fall brother. Thus it is needful for us to born again to regain that full image.

This does not mean that we are not to care for our neighbor, for God commands us to. And perhaps through that, He may lead them to Christ.

Hey roaringlamb, don't forget about our conversation here, I know that you and logic are all into this, but I am still waiting for your response to my last post. If you get a moment, I'd appreciate it.

Although flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit, a man is made up of both, whether his spirit is alive in Christ, or dead in sin, he still has them.

I believe that man is spiritually dead. In the garden, Adam was body, soul, and spirit but the spiritual was forfeited.

When God said to Adam that in the day that he ate of the tree, he would surely die, we know that Adam went on to live many more years. This death was not only physical, but also spiritual.

The Gospel preached does not alone bring faith to hearers. God must bring about the ability to believe it. This is why a man can doubt it for so long, and then suddenly it all makes sense to him.

The Gospel is the good news of Christ and His death for sinners, His burial, and His resurrection. But men must see that they are sinners in need of this forgiveness, and this does not come from flesh or fleshly wisdom as the flesh will seek to excuse itself.

This Gospel is the means by which God opens the blinded eyes to Christ, God uses it to enable our withered hands to reach out and grasp Christ, and he uses it to enable our lame feet to walk in His ways.

Now, for what it is worth, if you go out on the streets preaching the gospel, it won't take long for you to hear an unsaved, unregenerate say the words "Jesus is Lord". Albeit mockingly, or just for whatever reason, they do have the ability to say those words without the spirit of God.

Paul was not saying that in such a blanket way, as much as he preached, he would have know this to be true as well. What Paul was saying was that no man can truly call Jesus Lord, and believe it without the spirit of God. At least this is my opinion on this passage, I have seen to many mockeries to believe he could have meant otherwise.

I agree with you here brother, and I did not mean it in the way that mocking people would say it. But no man can apart from the Spirit.

Yes, I believe absolutely that it proves that God must initiate the new birth, but there is no regeneration until the person believes, the gospel is the "initiation", and when met with belief, God regenerates, or saves them.

Well, I would have to disagree with you, and I would say that a man repents and has faith because of the new birth. As a new born baby does not birth itself, but proves its life by breathing and crying.

If our faith was the determining factor, then God would be saving us because of some work we had done. Also, we would have to ask where does this faith come from.

Salvation is from God renewing hearts, but not man co-operating with God to be saved. For until our hearts are changed, we do not wish to have anything to do with God. After our new birth of course we work with God as He works in us to will and do His good pleasure.

That is where the burning shining light of the gospel steps in and penetrates my darkened left hand turning heart and exposes me to the truth. At which point all glory belongs to God for showing me the truth, if I believe He will save me and then all glory belongs to Him for saving me, what did I do, I surrendered to His will, I knelt in His presence that's all, I exposed my neck to the executioners sword.

But you are able now to turn the other direction because you have been changed by another, and you did not do anything to bring about that change.

You could not see the truth unless he gave you "eyes to see" as we are blinded by satan, and our flesh.

We are saved because of what He has done, not what we have done or could do. It is not my surrender, or any other work I could do that saves me, it is Christ and His sacrifice. I know you know this, but we must understand that it is only God's grace that allows us to be saved.

If we begin to think that we had any work or addition to the work, then we may seek to carry on our walk looking at what we are doing, how much we are praying, how many times I have preached the Gospel, as a means to stand before God. But the work is finished in that we are justified by Christ's work, and our faith is a proof of our new birth, and assures us that we are God's children.

I think there is a misconception that if a man is responsible for believing in God, then it somehow robs God of His glory. This is far from true, on the contrary, how much glory does God receive for taking a dead man and giving him the opportunity to believe, and then saving those who humble themselves in the light of the truth?

Rather brother how much glory does God receive for taking those who are dead and giving them life, and faith. Notice that in your version, God's will can be thwarted, but in mine, God's word actually produces life, not just a possibility.

Again, God does not save us because we agree with His word, or because we humble ourselves, we do these things because we are saved. We could not do this if we had not seen with spiritual eyes the truth of God's word, and our need of Christ.

I have yet to meet a man who was genuinely saved, that would boast of anything to do with his own salvation. You listen to the account of hundreds of freshly saved believers, listen to their testimonies, they glory in nothing, but they praise God for saving them.

Yes, and then they are taught to believe that somehow they either deserved it, or did something to be saved.

If they were allowed to see that God chooses in His own good pleasure who to give life to, they would have greater assurance of their standing with Him, and would realize that we are all unworthy servants.

It is His gospel.

It is His power in the preaching.

It is His power that persuades a man through us.

It is His power that saves a man who will humble himself and believe.

It is His power that makes a man humble himself and believe, without the new heart, a man will not do this. Again it is not because we have done something, but rather we do because God has done something.

I don't understand at what point that any glory is taken, or robbed of God.

A man wh humbles himself takes no glory, rather he gives it to someone else.

Perhaps because this view makes God a God of possibilities rather than a God of actualities.

It is like when God created the Earth, He spoke and there was. he did not create a possibility for the Earth to exist, but instead He spoke and it was.

It makes God weak, or His grace ineffectual as it cannot do what it is sent forth to do.

Paul does say that we plant a seed, seeds have life. He says we water, water causes seeds to grow, and God gives the plant life, He gives the seed life. But the seed is the gospel, and the water I would think is either a demonstration of the spirit, or of persuading a man, thereby watering the seed of the gospel.

By all means, the Father revealed that to Peter, but remember, Peter was already a follower of God, and in His own pursuit of knowing God, God revealed the person of Jesus Christ to him. Peter was not an unregenerate soul that was trapped in a body of death that God suddenly broke in upon. He was even so much as to be already a follower of Christ.

It may be that Peter was a believer, but later Christ tells Peter, "when you are converted, strengthen your brethren"(Luke 22:32)

So who knows, but I still believe this shows the need of God's revelation to man in order to come to faith in Christ much like Jesus said in John 6:44.

If we are co-laborers, then we have co-work, co-results, co-success, I think the point is clear, if God does absolutely everything, and what I do is absolutely nothing, I mean if He can preach to everyone, then all I am is a pair of legs that runs around on my own, hoping that God gives life. I can have no faith that when I preach he is speaking through me, only that He might speak sometimes, and other times He might not.

No brother, for if you believe that God will give life to all whom He has chosen, then you have great hope that His word will be effective when preached. Our hope is in the good news of Christ and Him crucified. I am always amazed at the simplicity of the messages preached in the book of Acts. Each one has mention of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and yet the results are astounding!

If salvation were left up to man's decision, then we would really have to despair, for then our words would really be empty.

Of course Christ is that word that we should preach, and we should tell people to believe, but only those who are born again will believe.

If I preach without the power of God speaking through me, then it is dead preaching, and holds no life. Either He has set the gospel with power, or He chooses to allow dead preaching.

Any time Christ is proclaimed brother there is power. We do not need to concern ourselves with the results, but rather our faithful Savior who we are proclaiming.

Consider Jeremiah and his 40 years of preaching without any converts. Was he not speaking the word of God to his hearers? Of course he was, but God must give the word life, we cannot manufacture it.

I have, and the cry inside my heart that comes from the spirit of God is heart breaking, and I weep over the state of the man, because though the conviction of the truth was upon him, he hardened his heart to it.

This is why I say as well that God uses the gospel to penetrate to the heart of a man, and convict him of sin. Then God will save the man who repents and believes.

Brother if there was some effect, be of good cheer. It may be a ways off, and you and never see the fruit, but God will work in His time, and in His way.

I remember sharing the Gospel with a gentleman where I live, and he was very cordial, he even thanked me for explaining it to him. But he did not change, or believe, because everything was everyone else's fault. I had the chance to speak to him one more time after that and within a few days he died, this is one of the events that caused to really look into why some believe and some do not.

There was another man who was adamantly against hearing anything about God, but I would talk here and there about spiritual things with him. Three weeks ago he passed away, but before he died, he raised his hands to the ceiling and said, "God I am ready to go home now."

I don't know his state brother, but God can do so many things when people are on the verge of the grave. We do not know that He does not speak to those in comas, we don't know. Maybe that's what makes us want to know, so we can see something to prove we're doing it right, I don't know.

The gospel is more than just words, it is life, and power, it is the testimony of Christ, God himself, how can a thing like that hold no power in the salvation of a man, I say it must be as witnessed by Paul the power of God unto salvation, that means the gospel is what produces salvation, God does the saving, but the gospel causes men to be saved.

Yes, but there will be those who hear and witness its power, and deny the truth of it just like the Pharisees,and scribes did when the Word incarnate walked among them.

Brother the Gospel is Christ, it is good news that is to be declared. We do not ask for opinions on news stories, we simply tell them. It is important to understand that we preach the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as an objective truth that all men must reckon with. Those whom God gives ability will come, some may come another day, some perhaps never. But we do it because necessity is placed upon us, and we must love our neighbors as ourselves.

If I cannot have faith that it is that when preached, I would be better off not preaching.

Trust that whenever Christ is proclaimed in truth brother, He is there.

Blessings to you ben.

P.S. We do agree on the alcohol issue as well(this could be dangerous) :-D

This is the God you present:

If God could have made a world with no sin when it is evident that HE didn't, means that He chose the world that has sin over the one that didn't. This, in turn, means that He wanted sin to exist.

He then made Adam to sin by His [u]sovereignty[/u](the ultimate cause of everything and ultimate control of everything); the reasoning behind this is if Adam did sin against God's will, that would mean that Adams will is greater than God's.

God made the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" so that all mankind would be condemned in Adam before any one was born(Psa 51:5). This causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature". This nature causes all mankind to sin and go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.(Psa 58:3).

God commands all mankind to do the impossible and condemns man for not obeying. Man is condemned for that which is unavoidable. Therefore, man is doing that which he was created to do, that is to sin.

Those who are pre-selected to hell in contraposition to the Elect, can not ever repent because God refuses to give them the ability and condemns for it.

Well isn't there also [b]a chance[/b] for them to go to Heaven?

So, your saying that faith in God answering the prayer to save a lost one is based on chance?

I cannot figure out what you are saying here.

2Peter 3:9b not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

We have been through this before, and as the text proves, it is speaking of the elect to whom Peter is writing to.

Brother you have continued to call God unfair for judging those who have sinned against Him, and you have called God a tyrant for condemning men who will not believe in Christ.
You are more willing to defend man, than to stand upon God's truth.

I am standing up for truth when you continue to make God to be a devil. See my opening statement.

Wrong law. I am talking about the law that god made Adam to be the Federal Headship as you declare.

It's not what I declare, it is what the Bible teaches.

This god you claim made sure of that.
However, in reality there are people who seek the truth and find God in the process.

So in the light of Scripture, you say contrary?

There are none that seek Him, no not one, but you say that God is wrong here?

That is because the god you claim refuses to "regenerate" them.
How can they believe in Christ if this god does not first initiate?

All men are condemned because they are sinners, and their deeds show this to be so

God [b]did not want Adam to sin[/b], He wanted Adam to continue in fellowship with Him.

Now your going back on what you told me.
you said god wish for sin to be. and that is only for the purpose of saving him.

God allowed sin to enter humanity, [b]if He did not want it[/b] to happen, it wouldn't have.

This can only show His amazing love for us.

No one is born spiritual(John the Baptist is an exception) and then forfeit their spirituality by sinning.

I am not making man innocent after he sins. I am only making people innocent before they sin.

Who hasn't sinned?

This god you worship condemns people before they are even born, before the actual crime.
Manipulates man by telling them not to sin and secretly wishes sin to exist only for the purpose of saving a few.

God exists outside of time brother, and time is His creation. He knows everything.

Brother while you disagree with me, you still must address why God would create men knowing they [b]would perish[/b].

And if there were such a thing as free will to resist or choose God, would you not desire God to override your will and save you?

The bottom line still exists, that God creates men [b]knowing[/b] that not all of them will be saved,

No, I am offended at you for presenting God to go against the basic reality of Justice(not fairness!) presenting God to NOT be all loving and only finite in grace.

Brother do you really desire justice from God?

How is it unjust for the Judge to declare who will receive pardon and who will not?
In a courtroom, none dare accuse the judge of unfairness if he decides to pardon one and not another especially if all were guilty of the crimes they were brought in for.

Then why does your god condemn before the foundation of the Earth?
Why are we guilty "in Adam"?
Why the spiritual death before the sin actually committed?

Because God has already seen the end from the beginning, and knows exactly who will be saved and who will not be.

Your so called "regeneration" is a myth.

Regeneration is a myth now?

roaringlamb wrote:

I believe that man is spiritually dead. In the garden, Adam was body, soul, and spirit but the spiritual was forfeited.

When God said to Adam that in the day that he ate of the tree, he would surely die, we know that Adam went on to live many more years. This death was not only physical, but also spiritual.

While I agree with the fact that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the tree he would surely die, let me point something out and ask a question.

[b][color=FF0000]Genisis 3:22 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:[/color][/b]

If man was completely spiritually dead, why was God concerned here?

According to what you have told me, Adam would have been incapable of choosing the things of God, or understanding them. Yet, God was concerned about this, why? Because Adam knew full well that the tree of life would grant him life. He, under his own faculties, while he was supposedly too dead to choose the things of God, could have eaten of the fruit of the tree of life.

One other thing here, which is more poingant than that last point, you must provide evidence of the effects of sin through the scripture to support that belief, otherwise it is a vain theology.

First you must prove that the effects of sin are anything more than stated.

They are wrapped up in this statement, "you shall surely die". So we know that that would destroy Adam's life, (death) and it would destroy his perfect standing before God (loss of perfection). There is no mention of his spirit being "killed" or "dying".

These are the effects of sin as witnessed by Genisis, or Moses, the writer of Genisis. I think that with Moses's attention to detail would have caused him to expound upon any and all effects of sin that were involved.

Therefore, if there are any other effects of original sin, they must be witnessed by someone from the scriptures, and it must be plainly obvious that that is the issue being addressed.

[b]So let's start at the beginning, show me from scripture the effects of sin that are not shown in Genisis.[/b]
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The Gospel preached does not alone bring faith to hearers. God must bring about the ability to believe it. This is why a man can doubt it for so long, and then suddenly it all makes sense to him.

This is a false statement, not supported by scripture, Paul says,

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.[/color][/b]

Faith does come by the preaching, not by an act of God. It is the hearing that requires the word of God, which is also the preaching.

This is not an issue of personal opinion, Paul directly disagrees with your statement.
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The Gospel is the good news of Christ and His death for sinners, His burial, and His resurrection. But men must see that they are sinners in need of this forgiveness, and this does not come from flesh or fleshly wisdom as the flesh will seek to excuse itself.

This Gospel is the means by which God opens the blinded eyes to Christ, God uses it to enable our withered hands to reach out and grasp Christ, and he uses it to enable our lame feet to walk in His ways.

I believe both these statements are related directly to the prior two points, if those fail, then these two fail as well.
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Well, I would have to disagree with you, and I would say that a man repents and has faith because of the new birth. As a new born baby does not birth itself, but proves its life by breathing and crying.

If our faith was the determining factor, then God would be saving us because of some work we had done. Also, we would have to ask where does this faith come from.

Salvation is from God renewing hearts, but not man co-operating with God to be saved. For until our hearts are changed, we do not wish to have anything to do with God. After our new birth of course we work with God as He works in us to will and do His good pleasure.

I am not sure that the new birth explanation here matches, newborns are not preached to, so it doesn't quite make perfect sense. While their may be similarities, I think we should stick more to what is said in the scripture.

Paul says we are saved by our faith,

[b][color=FF0000]Ephesians 2:8 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[/color][/b]

We are saved through faith, if we were saved before, then it would not be through. Here is the meaning of that word through according to strong's.

[b]de-a

1) through
a) of place
1) with
2) in
b) of time
1) throughout
2) during
c) of means
1) by
2) by the means of
2) through
a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1) by reason of
2) on account of
3) because of for this reason
4) therefore
5) on this account[/b]

I think it is very clear that the word through means that faith was the reason, or instrument by which we are saved. That means that if someone was saved before they had faith to believe, then Paul is wrong. It cannot be both ways. Either someone is saved by faith, or they are not, if they are, then they are saved once they have faith.

As we both already know, salvation and regeneration are one and the same. There is no seperation of the two throughout scripture.

So a man is not regenerated, given the ability to believe, and then saved. That is contrary to the scriptural account I have just shown. A man is given faith by hearing the word of God preached, and if he exercises his faith, through that he is saved.
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But you are able now to turn the other direction because you have been changed by another, and you did not do anything to bring about that change.

You could not see the truth unless he gave you "eyes to see" as we are blinded by satan, and our flesh.

We are saved because of what He has done, not what we have done or could do. It is not my surrender, or any other work I could do that saves me, it is Christ and His sacrifice. I know you know this, but we must understand that it is only God's grace that allows us to be saved.

If we begin to think that we had any work or addition to the work, then we may seek to carry on our walk looking at what we are doing, how much we are praying, how many times I have preached the Gospel, as a means to stand before God. But the work is finished in that we are justified by Christ's work, and our faith is a proof of our new birth, and assures us that we are God's children.

Let me reintroduce the example, God walks up, lays a two edged sword that is razor sharp upon my neck and says, "believe in me and you will go free." If I believe he exists, all I did was acknowledge the obvious, I will die if I do not believe. If I chose not to believe, I sentence myself to death, God's glory is not taken in that situation.
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Rather brother how much glory does God receive for taking those who are dead and giving them life, and faith. Notice that in your version, God's will can be thwarted, but in mine, God's word actually produces life, not just a possibility.

God's will is not thwarted, you misunderstand his will. Was God's will thwarted when moses struck the rock twice instead of once?

The answer is...

Yes, and no. God's will was that Moses strike the rock once, Moses struck it twice, and as a result did not see the promised land.

God's will was thwarted, yet even with His will thwarted, He still causes His will to be done. Israel reached the promised land.

The scriptures are full of places where God's will was thwarted, and disobeyed, yet His will was still accomplished by another means.

So while a man who refuses to believe thwarts God's will for him to be saved, many others are saved, and thereby His will is accomplished.

This is a hard concept to understand, yet it is all throughout scripture.
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Yes, and then they are taught to believe that somehow they either deserved it, or did something to be saved.

If they were allowed to see that God chooses in His own good pleasure who to give life to, they would have greater assurance of their standing with Him, and would realize that we are all unworthy servants.

Not so, I know men who were saved in their twenties, believe as I do, and are now in their mid fifties, and still if asked would say that it was God who saved them, and that they were not responsible, but they would tell you that you must believe to be saved. But that in no way thwarts the glory of God belonging to God.

I have met men on both theological sides, who believed firmly their doctrine, and neither one of them has any more assurance than the other, they both have assurance, and neither one more than the other. WHile many people on my side of the issue do struggl with that issue sometimes, it is only because they do not fully understand the grace of God towards them.
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It is His power that makes a man humble himself and believe, without the new heart, a man will not do this. Again it is not because we have done something, but rather we do because God has done something.

I addressed this statement further back up the page, you cannot be saved before you have faith to believe.
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Perhaps because this view makes God a God of possibilities rather than a God of actualities.

It is like when God created the Earth, He spoke and there was. he did not create a possibility for the Earth to exist, but instead He spoke and it was.

It makes God weak, or His grace ineffectual as it cannot do what it is sent forth to do.

But he did not say to the earth "if you believe in me I will create you." The earth has no mind, it has no spirit, and it has no soul.

Man is the exception to all of creation, because man was created with a will, in God's image. Therefore, the will of am man must line up with the will of God, or he cannot be saved.

The only way that that can happen is through faith. Not regeneration, not election, not foreordination or predestination. It can only take place through faith.

If it is not by faith, then it is by another means contrary to the gospel, and contrary to the teachings of Paul.

This is not an issue of God being strong or weak, that is not a valid argument. For that to be a valid argument, I ask that you show me throughout all of scripture how God would command both those with faith, and those without faith to do things, and they were not done?

Is man's will stronger than God's will?

Do God's commands that are His will not achieve their purpose?

Oh no, not a valid or logical argument, man constantly thwarts the will of God throughout all of scripture, yet God's will is accomplished.

How does that happen?

I don't know completely, and I need to ask God that question when I die. But neither does anyone else understand that paradigm completely, because it is a paradigm.
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It may be that Peter was a believer, but later Christ tells Peter, "when you are converted, strengthen your brethren"(Luke 22:32)

So who knows, but I still believe this shows the need of God's revelation to man in order to come to faith in Christ much like Jesus said in John 6:44.

While I believe that revelation is needed in order to have faith, Paul clearly teaches that the gospel is that revelation, that causes faith, whereby we are saved.

John 6:44 only emphasizes the fact that the Father draws men to Christ, it does not say that God only draws the chosen, it only says that man does not come to God apart from God drawing them to himself.

It in no way deals with the issue of election, rather it deals with the self seeking attitude that says "I came to God, and saved myself because of my righteousness."
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No brother, for if you believe that God will give life to all whom He has chosen, then you have great hope that His word will be effective when preached. Our hope is in the good news of Christ and Him crucified. I am always amazed at the simplicity of the messages preached in the book of Acts. Each one has mention of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and yet the results are astounding!

If salvation were left up to man's decision, then we would really have to despair, for then our words would really be empty.

Of course Christ is that word that we should preach, and we should tell people to believe, but only those who are born again will believe.

I think I finally am beginning to grasp more the reasons why you believe as you do, while I disagree here, I understand your point.
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Any time Christ is proclaimed brother there is power. We do not need to concern ourselves with the results, but rather our faithful Savior who we are proclaiming.

Consider Jeremiah and his 40 years of preaching without any converts. Was he not speaking the word of God to his hearers? Of course he was, but God must give the word life, we cannot manufacture it.

I agree with you here, but this is not the point I am attempting to make, I will have to consider it for a day or two so that I can put it into proper words that will communicate it effectively.
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P.S. We do agree on the alcohol issue as well(this could be dangerous)

I knew you did, I had the suspicion, because I know that presbyterian churches use wine in the communion, one point I might add that I do like about the presbytery. :-P

Genisis 3:22 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If man was completely spiritually dead, why was God concerned here?

Well we must understand that the violation of God's commandment to Adam was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. By breaking this command, Adam lost fellowship with God-
Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Of course God knew where Adam was, so we can conclude that the question was for Adam to realize the distance now created between himself and the God with whom he had walked with and talked with.

The death that we see coming upon men works itself out in the book of Genesis as moral(Cain's murder of Abel), spiritual(men trying to build their own way to Heaven with the Tower of Babel).

But now to your question about God's concern for Adam eating of the tree of life. If Adam would have eaten of the tree, he would have lived forever. There would have been a continual decay of the outward man that would have never ended, and man would have never had the hope of the removal of sickness, and death.

Another reason would be also that if man could gain eternal life for himself, or by his own taking of the fruit, then God's word that Adam would die would be broken. And if possible, man might save himself from dying: to prevent him, and to cut off all hopes of securing life to himself in this way, it is suggested that something must be done, which may be supplied from the following verse, let us send him out of the garden.

So let's start at the beginning, show me from scripture the effects of sin that are not shown in Genisis.

Deu 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
Deu 29:3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Deu 29:4 [b]Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.[/b]

It is interesting that Job is believed to be the oldest book of the Bible(written before Genesis was written by Moses), and look at what Job says-
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
Job 15:16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

If you consider how we drink water, and crave it, is it not the same with the natural man?

I hope I am doing what you have asked, I don't rally understand what you are asking.

When Adam sinned, he forfeited the right standing he had with God, and brought separation between man and God. The effects of this sin are all over the pages of Scripture, whether it is the moral sin of a man sleeping with his daughter-in-law, a man raping another man's daughter and then her brothers lying and then killing them, Abraham lying about his wife being his sister. There are many many more stories that illustrate the moral corruption brought about by this separation.

It is not just moral, because if we believe that separation from God is spiritual death, then we see that in the Garden with Adam and Eve as they hid themselves, and God reminded them of the distance between them that had been created.

Before I go further, I want to make sure I am heading the right direction.

This is a false statement, not supported by scripture, Paul says,

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Brother please look closely at what I wrote and what this verse says.

Here is what I wrote-
The Gospel preached does not alone bring faith to hearers. God must bring about the ability to believe it. This is why a man can doubt it for so long, and then suddenly it all makes sense to him.

This is exactly what that verse is saying. the word "word" there is not logos, but rather rhema which is more like a spoken word.

What I mean is that as the Gospel is preached, God speaks to those who have ears to hear. It is where jay and I understand the outward call to all men, and the inward call as God renews the heart to believe, and opens the ears to hear.

It is interesting to see in this passage the contrast between those who believe and those who don't, and the reason why they do not.

John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
John 12:39 [b]Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,[/b]
John 12:40 [b]He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.[/b]
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:42 [b]Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:[/b]

So why did some believe and others did not?

So a man is not regenerated, given the ability to believe, and then saved. That is contrary to the scriptural account I have just shown. A man is given faith by hearing the word of God preached, and if he exercises his faith, through that he is saved.

Not so, for many will hear the word of God preached and walk away unchanged, because there is no internal change to believe it.

Yes we are saved by grace through faith, but look at the next part, "and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...."

The faith to believe is a gift, as is the renewed heart.

How can we say a man who was blind to spiritual things, and suddenly "see" apart from the fact that God opened their eyes to see.

Let me reintroduce the example, God walks up, lays a two edged sword that is razor sharp upon my neck and says, "believe in me and you will go free." If I believe he exists, all I did was acknowledge the obvious, I will die if I do not believe. If I chose not to believe, I sentence myself to death, God's glory is not taken in that situation.

Well what if God does not do this to every man?

Does He have the right to exclude some?

(I am not agreeing with you on this, but just going with your analogy)

The scriptures are full of places where God's will was thwarted, and disobeyed, yet His will was still accomplished by another means.

So while a man who refuses to believe thwarts God's will for him to be saved, many others are saved, and thereby His will is accomplished.

I agree with you that this is true through Scripture, but in salvation, God's grace is not snubbed. Oh sure even those who are going to be saved may at times resist His grace, ultimately it brings them to salvation. God's grace is never wasted, and it always accomplishes what it sets out to do, and provides what it demands.

This is why I don't agree that a man can completely resist God's grace if it is convicting him, it will accomplish salvation.

I addressed this statement further back up the page, you cannot be saved before you have faith to believe.

And you cannot have faith with a natural heart, it must be renewed. The moment a man is regenerated, he is saved, and is adopted by God. Faith is a fruit of the new heart, and not the cause of it.

Man is the exception to all of creation, because man was created with a will, in God's image. Therefore, the will of am man must line up with the will of God, or he cannot be saved.

The only way that that can happen is through faith. Not regeneration, not election, not foreordination or predestination. It can only take place through faith.

But brother, a man's will will never line up with God's apart from him being renewed. A regenerate heart produces faith. Perhaps it simultaneous, in that the they are so closely linked it is difficult to tell the order of.

But like my example earlier of the new born babe(which Peter uses this term to describe us), the proof of birth is life. The birth causes life, apart from this, of course there is no life.

While I believe that revelation is needed in order to have faith, Paul clearly teaches that the gospel is that revelation, that causes faith, whereby we are saved.

But many will hear the Gospel and walk away as if it were nothing at all. So then their eyes are blocked from the revelation of Christ in the Gospel. There may be a time later in which the scales fall off, and they believe though.

John 6:44 only emphasizes the fact that the Father draws men to Christ, it does not say that God only draws the chosen, it only says that man does not come to God apart from God drawing them to himself.

Brother here is an interesting verse that I would like to present to you-
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, [b]that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.[/b]
John 17:3 [b]And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.[/b]

Now what is interesting to me is the word for "power"

Here is the Strong's definition-
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

In essence it seems that Christ has been given the free right to give eternal life to all that the Father has given Him, and this life is knowledge of God, and His Son.

If it has to be given, and if it to those whom the Father has given Christ, how do we say that man can believe on his own, or that salvation is open to all?

I look forward to hearing more from you brother, every blessing to you.

roaringlamb wrote:

Well we must understand that the violation of God's commandment to Adam was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. By breaking this command, Adam lost fellowship with God-
Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Of course God knew where Adam was, so we can conclude that the question was for Adam to realize the distance now created between himself and the God with whom he had walked with and talked with.

The death that we see coming upon men works itself out in the book of Genesis as moral(Cain's murder of Abel), spiritual(men trying to build their own way to Heaven with the Tower of Babel).

But now to your question about God's concern for Adam eating of the tree of life. If Adam would have eaten of the tree, he would have lived forever. There would have been a continual decay of the outward man that would have never ended, and man would have never had the hope of the removal of sickness, and death.

Another reason would be also that if man could gain eternal life for himself, or by his own taking of the fruit, then God's word that Adam would die would be broken. And if possible, man might save himself from dying: to prevent him, and to cut off all hopes of securing life to himself in this way, it is suggested that something must be done, which may be supplied from the following verse, let us send him out of the garden.

Now, the concluding point, if all the above is correct, and God was genuinely concerned about this issue, that means that God knew that man would seek after eternal life by any means necessary.

With that in mind, let me show you a verse that will reveal the reason for this point.

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 2:6-7

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:[/b]

Paul in this passage is not addressing the saved, you can look for yourself, but you will find that what he says here in verse 7 is very poingant, "Those who seek after eternal life".

It is interesting to me that both Paul and God knew that men would seek after eternal life, and Paul says He will reward them according to their deeds, if they are patient and do well.
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Deu 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
Deu 29:3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

I might point out here that you stop two verses short of gathering the whole statement in it's context. Let's have a look,

[b][color=FF0000]Deuteronomy 29:5-6

5And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

6Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: (that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.)[/color][/b]

This passage is leading to the point of verse 6, which is, God did all these things, and led them through the wilderness so that they would know He is God.

The point of this passage is not, God has not allowed you to believe, until today.

Let me show you something I found, it doesn't make sense to me, and probably I would have to have a hebrew scholar explain it, but in that passage where it says, "hath not given you an" in the original language according to strongs, there is no negative assertion, there is one word for the whole phrase, let me show you.

[b]na-than

1) to give, put, set
a) (Qal)
1) to give, bestow, grant, permit, ascribe, employ, devote, consecrate, dedicate, pay wages, sell, exchange, lend, commit, entrust, give over, deliver up, yield produce, occasion, produce, requite to, report, mention, utter, stretch out, extend
2) to put, set, put on, put upon, set, appoint, assign, designate
3) to make, constitute
b) (Niphal)
1) to be given, be bestowed, be provided, be entrusted to, be granted to, be permitted, be issued, be published, be uttered, be assigned
2) to be set, be put, be made, be inflicted
c) (Hophal)
1) to be given, be bestowed, be given up, be delivered up
2) to be put upon[/b]

It cofuses me a bit, because I would have expected it to match more closely the english, what this appears to me to mean is that even more the opposite of the english translation it would read something like this:

[b]29:4

Yet the LORD "hath given you an" heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.[/b]

Now I by no means am a scholar, but when I read what strong's says about it, it shows it to be the opposite, meaning that God has given them hearts to perceive and understand all the way until this day, as Moses said, so that they would know...
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It is interesting that Job is believed to be the oldest book of the Bible(written before Genesis was written by Moses), and look at what Job says-
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
Job 15:16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

If you consider how we drink water, and crave it, is it not the same with the natural man?

I hope I am doing what you have asked, I don't rally understand what you are asking.

When Adam sinned, he forfeited the right standing he had with God, and brought separation between man and God. The effects of this sin are all over the pages of Scripture, whether it is the moral sin of a man sleeping with his daughter-in-law, a man raping another man's daughter and then her brothers lying and then killing them, Abraham lying about his wife being his sister. There are many many more stories that illustrate the moral corruption brought about by this separation.

It is not just moral, because if we believe that separation from God is spiritual death, then we see that in the Garden with Adam and Eve as they hid themselves, and God reminded them of the distance between them that had been created.

Before I go further, I want to make sure I am heading the right direction.

While I agree here, that seperation you mentioned, is taken away by one element, and that is faith, faith which comes through hearing the word of God.
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Brother please look closely at what I wrote and what this verse says.

Here is what I wrote-
The Gospel preached does not alone bring faith to hearers. God must bring about the ability to believe it. This is why a man can doubt it for so long, and then suddenly it all makes sense to him.

This is exactly what that verse is saying. the word "word" there is not logos, but rather rhema which is more like a spoken word.

What I mean is that as the Gospel is preached, God speaks to those who have ears to hear. It is where jay and I understand the outward call to all men, and the inward call as God renews the heart to believe, and opens the ears to hear.

It is interesting to see in this passage the contrast between those who believe and those who don't, and the reason why they do not.

1. According to your belief, no one has ears to hear, therefore there is no one to preach to. Because again, God must give the ears.

2. According to your belief, a person must be regenerated, (which is salvation) before they can hear the gospel and understand it.

3. Why would you preach to a man who is already saved?

4. The only reason given according to the scripture for why men do not believe is that they do not want their sin exposed. Not any of these other things.
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John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

So why did some believe and others did not?

First I must say here, it does not say that God blinded their eyes, capital letterds mean nothing, as in Greek all letters are capitals, but let me bring in some scripture to balance this issue.

[b][color=FF0000]Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.[/color][/b]

Jesus makes a statement here, that if tyre and sidon had witnessed miracles like these, they would have believed and repented.

The reason they did not believe? Their hearts were hard, and their eyes were blinded by their sin and satan.
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Not so, for many will hear the word of God preached and walk away unchanged, because there is no internal change to believe it.

Yes we are saved by grace through faith, but look at the next part, "and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...."

The faith to believe is a gift, as is the renewed heart.

How can we say a man who was blind to spiritual things, and suddenly "see" apart from the fact that God opened their eyes to see.

Paul addresses your first point of some not believing with this,

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 3:3 3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?[/color][/b]

The gospel remains effective to give faith whether or not a man chooses to believe, and the heart always acknowledges the truth by way of the conscience.

You see, you are assuming that if the gospel is the means for salvation, and it is what produces faith, then everyone would automatically believe and get saved.

But this is not a balanced understanding, if you read the parable of the sower, it causes the gospel to make more sense in understanding this. You see, the sower sows, but the hearts of men are different everywhere, and while the gospel convicts, and gives faith, it only does this for those who receive it.

You see, you can write me checks for a million dollars with my name on the check all day long, but if I do not receive the check from you, if I do not choose to take it, then I will not get the gift from you. I may even take the checks from you, but if I don't cash them at the bank, they have no profit for me.

Now let me say this, how is that gift of faith given to us, well as Paul says, "Faith comes by hearing the word of God".

So we now know how the gift of faith is given, by "HEARING" the word of God.

The renewed heart is a gift that comes by faith, according to the scripture salvation, or renewal takes place once a person has believed.

For this not to be the case, you must show evidence through the scripture of a person who was saved before they believed. You will not find any such thing.
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Well what if God does not do this to every man?

Does He have the right to exclude some?

(I am not agreeing with you on this, but just going with your analogy)

No, He does not, reason you ask?

Because He has already done this to every man, past present and future, I believe we started our previous discussion "All Men Everywhere" with the very verse that shows that He has already done this, here it is again,

[b][color=FF0000]Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:[/color][/b]

You see, it is not an issue of "does He have the right" it is an issue of "He already has".
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I agree with you that this is true through Scripture, but in salvation, God's grace is not snubbed. Oh sure even those who are going to be saved may at times resist His grace, ultimately it brings them to salvation. God's grace is never wasted, and it always accomplishes what it sets out to do, and provides what it demands.

This is why I don't agree that a man can completely resist God's grace if it is convicting him, it will accomplish salvation.

Why is salvation any different than anything else?
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And you cannot have faith with a natural heart, it must be renewed. The moment a man is regenerated, he is saved, and is adopted by God. Faith is a fruit of the new heart, and not the cause of it.

You cannot be saved until you believe, I have scripture on my side for this point, probably more than any other point I have made.

To continue making this statement, you must disprove the following with scripture:

1. Belief and then salvation.

2. Faith comes through the gospel.

If you cannot disprove at least one of those with scripture, then your statement is outside of the authority of scripture.
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But brother, a man's will will never line up with God's apart from him being renewed. A regenerate heart produces faith. Perhaps it simultaneous, in that the they are so closely linked it is difficult to tell the order of.

But like my example earlier of the new born babe(which Peter uses this term to describe us), the proof of birth is life. The birth causes life, apart from this, of course there is no life.

A man cannot be saved unless he has faith.

A man cannot have faith unless He hears the word of God.

A man cannot be saved before he believes, this is a logical impossibility. Because you are saved by faith, not for, by.
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But many will hear the Gospel and walk away as if it were nothing at all. So then their eyes are blocked from the revelation of Christ in the Gospel. There may be a time later in which the scales fall off, and they believe though.

I think I addressed this issue a little further back up when dealing with the prophecy of Isaiah.
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Brother here is an interesting verse that I would like to present to you-
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Now what is interesting to me is the word for "power"

Here is the Strong's definition-
????????
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

In essence it seems that Christ has been given the free right to give eternal life to all that the Father has given Him, and this life is knowledge of God, and His Son.

If it has to be given, and if it to those whom the Father has given Christ, how do we say that man can believe on his own, or that salvation is open to all?

I look forward to hearing more from you brother, every blessing to you.

I'm afraid I don't see how this says anything other than what the point of the passage is, and that is that Christ has power to save. It does not address all the issues and intricacies involved in salvation.

God has given Christ all that will be saved, no question, and Christ will save all who will be saved. He most definitely has power over all flesh that God has given Him to be saved.

But this in no way conflicts itself with what I believe. I think you have the misconception that I do not believe in a God who has planned everything out from start to finish and beyond. Well I do.

You see, there is a word I use called omniscience, which means with all knowledge.

If God has already seen the end from the beginning, then He can say of those who will choose Him, I give them to Christ to be saved. No problem at all.
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It is interesting to me that both Paul and God knew that men would seek after eternal life, and Paul says He will reward them according to their deeds, if they are patient and do well.

Well there are two points that we must look at here.
1)Men will seek eternal life- we see this in the multitude of religious practises that men take part in in order to justify themselves before their idea of God.

2)If men can be justified before God by being patient and continuing in good works, this is justification by works, which presents a way to be save aside from Christ.

So this passage cannot mean what you are saying it means as it would contradict to many other parts of Scripture.

I think it would be safe to ask the question, "Who is it that does good works, and perseveres in them?" Those who are justified of course. For sanctification is that process of continuing on in the work that saves, faith.

Now I by no means am a scholar, but when I read what strong's says about it, it shows it to be the opposite, meaning that God has given them hearts to perceive and understand all the way until this day, as Moses said, so that they would know...

When you consider the events that Israel went through, consider this passage(v6)

"Ye have not eaten bread..."
The word for bread signifies grain bread etc. But Israel ate manna given to them from God

"neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink..." Instead they drank from the rock, and also from the bitter waters that God made sweet.

"that ye might know that I am the LORD your God." These provisions were so that Israel would know that God was with them. Yet there were still those who did not perceive, or understand.

1. According to your belief, no one has ears to hear, therefore there is no one to preach to. Because again, God must give the ears.

We present the Gospel to men, God must give the spiritual life/ability it takes to produce faith and repentance.

Consider here in the book of Acts when Paul and Barnabas preach-
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: [b]and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.[/b]

We can see hear that the Jews must not have been ordained to eternal life as they did not believe.

2. According to your belief, a person must be regenerated, (which is salvation) before they can hear the gospel and understand it.

No, my belief is that regeneration and faith are so closely knit together that it is hard to separate them. However understanding that as Paul says in Ephesians-
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also [b]we all[/b] had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and [b]were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/b]

Because "by nature", or natural birth, we are children of wrath, we must be re-born and recreated, made spiritual.

A natural man cannot understand spiritual things. I remember before I was saved, the Bible made no sense tome at all. However once the Spirit resided in me, it became alive. The Bible did not change, I was changed. I who was dead in sin, was made alive.

3. Why would you preach to a man who is already saved?

I think I addressed this, however, believers need to hear the Gospel every day of their lives, but not to be saved, to be reminded of the great work of Christ for them.

4. The only reason given according to the scripture for why men do not believe is that they do not want their sin exposed. Not any of these other things.

So the fact that man is dead in sin and trespasses, and is by nature a child of wrath does not factor into this?

A man that is dead can make himself alive?

See I think we will continue to go round and round until the issue and extent of original sin are agreed upon.

First I must say here, it does not say that God blinded their eyes, capital letterds mean nothing, as in Greek all letters are capitals, but let me bring in some scripture to balance this issue.

Consider this brother-
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
John 12:41 [b]These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. [/b]

This is a flashback to Isaiah 6. Look at what is being said there-
Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isaiah 6:9 [b]And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.[/b]
Isaiah 6:10 [b]Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.[/b]

It is because they could not perceive by natural means, that they did not hear, see, or comprehend.

Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Jesus makes a statement here, that if tyre and sidon had witnessed miracles like these, they would have believed and repented.

The reason they did not believe? Their hearts were hard, and their eyes were blinded by their sin and satan.

I'd say there are two things here, one is that because Jesus is God, He knows all that would be, could be, or will be. Therefore, He can make this statement about something that could have happened.

The second point , I agree with you that they were blinded by their sin, and satan. And because they could not set themselves free from these, it shows that God must free us and give us life before we understand. This also shows that men are willing slaves to sin and satan in their natural state. They willingly serve satan by their sinful desires and rebellion against God, just like their father the devil.

But these things are not done contrary to their will as there is nothing that would fight with that desire until a man is born again, and has the Spirit that wars with the flesh.

Romans 3:3 3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

This is not talking about the Gospel brother but rather the Jews who did not believe the fulfillment of all that was written to them. Their unbelief of these things in no way negates God's faithfulness to His promises or His words.

The gospel remains effective to give faith whether or not a man chooses to believe, and the heart always acknowledges the truth by way of the conscience.

The literal words of the Gospel are not what give power or life, it is the Spirit that gives life.

A man may have his conscience pricked apart from new birth, and seek to amend his ways based on outward actions. We see this alot, men realize they are not "good", and then scurry to clean themselves up apart from the Spiritual birth.

So we now know how the gift of faith is given, by "HEARING" the word of God.

I think you have not read what I said about the word "rhema" and that it is almost like God literally speaking to a person through the preaching of the Gospel. This is the hearing that comes once God opens the ears to hear His voice.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Again though, this does not mean man is able on his own to do this.

What is interesting is that Paul before he says this says that God made from "one blood" all nations of men, or from one man, that being Adam. Which if we all came from Adam, we are all like him, and thus we go back to the passage in Ephesians 2 that speaks of us being dead in sin, and by nature or natural birth children of wrath.

If by nature we are children of wrath, then we must assume we are guilty, or God would definitely be unjust to place wrath upon an innocent man.

1. Belief and then salvation.

2. Faith comes through the gospel.

If you cannot disprove at least one of those with scripture, then your statement is outside of the authority of scripture.

Brother, I have addressed this. Belief and salvation are together as we are raised from death to life in Christ, as He quicken us who were dead in sin. He changes our nature and makes us a new creature(creation) in Him.

Both are fruits of regeneration, as they are both based upon Spiritual life, which no natural man possesses.

As for faith coming through the Gospel, this is not so. The Gospel will be heard by many with no effect to them as it was in Paul's days, and Christ's days. The Gospel itself is dead words apart from God's giving life to the hearers.

A man cannot be saved unless he has faith.

Absolutely, and this does not come from himself in his natural state. It is not the faith that justifies this man, but rather the Christ who he has faith in.

A man cannot have faith unless He hears the word of God.

Again, absolutely. But you can go out and preach to stone all day, and it will remain a stone. Until it changes, and has life that can comprehend the Gospel, it will remain that way.
(I know you're not preaching to rocks, it's good practice though!!)

A man cannot be saved before he believes, this is a logical impossibility. Because you are saved by faith, not for, by.

Belief is a part of regeneration though, the new life we have gives faith and repentance. Please don't' try to make a time issue out of this, as I have said many times, these are intertwined with one another. but neither can happen with an unchanged heart.

God has given Christ all that will be saved, no question, and Christ will save all who will be saved. He most definitely has power over all flesh that God has given Him to be saved.

Maybe this was more for logic to see than yourself.

roaringlamb wrote:

Well there are two points that we must look at here.
1)Men will seek eternal life- we see this in the multitude of religious practises that men take part in in order to justify themselves before their idea of God.

2)If men can be justified before God by being patient and continuing in good works, this is justification by works, which presents a way to be save aside from Christ.

So this passage cannot mean what you are saying it means as it would contradict to many other parts of Scripture.

I think it would be safe to ask the question, "Who is it that does good works, and perseveres in them?" Those who are justified of course. For sanctification is that process of continuing on in the work that saves, faith.

First of all, Paul made the statement, so it is what it says it is, we know no one will be justified ouside of one thing, faith. So faith is the key interpreter into who who does well will be saved. Not anything else.
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We present the Gospel to men, God must give the spiritual life/ability it takes to produce faith and repentance.

Consider here in the book of Acts when Paul and Barnabas preach-
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

We can see hear that the Jews must not have been ordained to eternal life as they did not believe.

Honestly, I don't know enough greek to say definitiveley what this means, but I did look at it in strongs, the definition of the word is as follows,

[b]ta s-so

1) to put in order, to station
a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one
b) to appoint, ordain, order
1) to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority
2) to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon[/b]

I do not have any answer with this, I believe I would have to see much more contextual scripture that verifies this type of occurence, or statement, otherwise there is not enough to form a belief out of it.
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No, my belief is that regeneration and faith are so closely knit together that it is hard to separate them. However understanding that as Paul says in Ephesians-
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Because "by nature", or natural birth, we are children of wrath, we must be re-born and recreated, made spiritual.

A natural man cannot understand spiritual things. I remember before I was saved, the Bible made no sense tome at all. However once the Spirit resided in me, it became alive. The Bible did not change, I was changed. I who was dead in sin, was made alive.

Although it is hard to seperate them, they must be seperated, because scripture does not teach what you have just described.

Unless there is an instance in scripture where a man or woman are saved/regenerated before they believe, then this is not a truthful doctrine.

I can pull scripture after scripture that say and teach that you must believe to be saved. You on the contrary can pull up no scriptures that teach what you say.

I do not disagree that we are children of wrath by nature, that means that by nature we were all damned to hell. Plain and simple.

Now, before I was saved, the Bible made perfect sense to me, I understood the whole thing, but I hated God because I wanted to sin, and He didn't want me to sin. It was not until I began to meditate on hell, and the reality of my unsure standing before God that I had to make a decision to follow Christ inspite of my desire to sin.

Brother let me tell you, there was no doubt in my mind prior to being saved that the Bible was true. I knew that only an idiot would believe anything else. I was raised a Christian, but was not saved. I knew it was true, I understood much of the scripture, but I had to come to grips with the reality that I was damned to hell.

I chose to believe in God, not because of a sudden awakening to truth, or a magical regeneration that changed me. I was one of those that the scripture talks about when it says "surley some will be won by fear". I was afraid of hell.

I was a "natural man" and I did understand spiritual things, and I was adversley opposed to the will of God in my life. Nobody preached these things to me either, I found them in the scriptures. By the leading of the Spirit I'm sure, but I understood them without a question. And I was the farthest thing from a regenerate Christian that you would ever see.
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So the fact that man is dead in sin and trespasses, and is by nature a child of wrath does not factor into this?

A man that is dead can make himself alive?

See I think we will continue to go round and round until the issue and extent of original sin are agreed upon.

No to the first, and no to the second.

That is what I want to discuss, what are the effects of original sin as shown through the scripture?

Outside of the obvious moral wickedness, and physical death. Let's examine everything that the scripture teaches concerning the spiritual death, and what that entails.
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Consider this brother-
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

This is a flashback to Isaiah 6. Look at what is being said there-
Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isaiah 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

It is because they could not perceive by natural means, that they did not hear, see, or comprehend.

Ah, but you stopped a couple of verses short of the explanation of the passage.

[b][color=FF0000]Isaiah 6:11-12 11Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

12And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.[/color][/b]

God was passing judgment on them because of their unbelief, and the judgment would cause those things to come to pass.

This only further illustrates my points in the Romans 1 topic.
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I'd say there are two things here, one is that because Jesus is God, He knows all that would be, could be, or will be. Therefore, He can make this statement about something that could have happened.

The second point , I agree with you that they were blinded by their sin, and satan. And because they could not set themselves free from these, it shows that God must free us and give us life before we understand. This also shows that men are willing slaves to sin and satan in their natural state. They willingly serve satan by their sinful desires and rebellion against God, just like their father the devil.

But these things are not done contrary to their will as there is nothing that would fight with that desire until a man is born again, and has the Spirit that wars with the flesh.

First issue, that is an easy way out of the point, Christ says that statement to place the responsibility of belief upon those He is speaking to, undeniably.

Second, that would not be a true statement, because it would not be the miracles that made them believe, only as you say, the regeneration of God.

Therefore, Jesus statement is not true, if brought under your beliefs. Jesus statement causes a contradiction of what you say is true.

Lastly, the statement that Jesus knew all that could have happened, is a illogical circle, if it could have happened, it would have, according to what you and Logic have been discussing.

You see, if God ordains everything, then nothing goes against His ordination. So for Jesus to say something could have, is to usurp the ordination of God. See the endless circle of confusion?

Even a slave can believe you have the key if you tell him you do, and thereby be set free.

You see, it seems as though you think the effects of sin make people to be actually dead, like without any brains or organs or anything like that. It's not true.
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I think you have not read what I said about the word "rhema" and that it is almost like God literally speaking to a person through the preaching of the Gospel. This is the hearing that comes once God opens the ears to hear His voice.

Again, circles, if He gives them ears, they are already saved. They cannot be saved before they have faith, so if the preverbial ears are the faith, Paul says that faith comes by hearing, so the ears/faith cannot be before the faith comes. Paul said the hearing comes by the word of God, not by God giving them ears, this concept is not even in scripture, could you please show me where you are getting this from, because I cannot find it anywhere.

This circle is so obvious, don't you see it, it is double talk, unintentional I presume, but this does not work logically.
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Again though, this does not mean man is able on his own to do this.

What is interesting is that Paul before he says this says that God made from "one blood" all nations of men, or from one man, that being Adam. Which if we all came from Adam, we are all like him, and thus we go back to the passage in Ephesians 2 that speaks of us being dead in sin, and by nature or natural birth children of wrath.

If by nature we are children of wrath, then we must assume we are guilty, or God would definitely be unjust to place wrath upon an innocent man.

Forgive my bluntness, but this is religious retorhic, I have just proven that God has already placed the sword upon the neck of all men, if He has done so, yet not given men the ability to believe, He is truly cruel, for He commands that which is impossible of a man, and God has yet to do that in scripture.

For if the sword is there, He gives the command to believe to all, and then picks and chooses who He will alow to believe, He is cruel, a liar, unjust. Not because man is just, but because justice is not a respecter of persons, the word respecter means a chooser.
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Brother, I have addressed this. Belief and salvation are together as we are raised from death to life in Christ, as He quicken us who were dead in sin. He changes our nature and makes us a new creature(creation) in Him.

Both are fruits of regeneration, as they are both based upon Spiritual life, which no natural man possesses.

As for faith coming through the Gospel, this is not so. The Gospel will be heard by many with no effect to them as it was in Paul's days, and Christ's days. The Gospel itself is dead words apart from God's giving life to the hearers.

Again, forgive my bluntness, but let's go to missouri, Show me scripture that proves this to be true, plain cut teaching, not implications.

I have plain cut teaching that is easily verified, and you do not.

Belief does come before salvation, albeit, the moment a man believes, he is saved, he is not saved and then believes immediately. That is exactly opposite of scripture.
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Again, absolutely. But you can go out and preach to stone all day, and it will remain a stone. Until it changes, and has life that can comprehend the Gospel, it will remain that way.
(I know you're not preaching to rocks, it's good practice though!!)

Men are not stones, the are cogniscent beings with intellect and understanding.
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Belief is a part of regeneration though, the new life we have gives faith and repentance. Please don't' try to make a time issue out of this, as I have said many times, these are intertwined with one another. but neither can happen with an unchanged heart.

roaringlamb, this is the whole issue, upon this the five points stand or fall.
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I'm not trying to make issues out of nothing, but these are the issues, and they must have a scriptural backing.

Brother I was working on a reply, and went to post it, and my account timed out. I got a message that said I did not have the right to post on this forum.

I am going to work on it again, it will take some time :(

Quote:

""Again, circles, if He gives them ears, they are already saved. They cannot be saved before they have faith, so if the preverbial ears are the faith, Paul says that faith comes by hearing, so the ears/faith cannot be before the faith comes. Paul said the hearing comes by the word of God, not by God giving them ears, this concept is not even in scripture, could you please show me where you are getting this from, because I cannot find it anywhere.

This circle is so obvious, don't you see it, it is double talk, unintentional I presume, but this does not work logically""

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the
Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Word: both cases in Peter and John, "Logos".

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3056. logos
Search for G3056 in KJVSL
logoV logos log'-os
from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

By Albert Barns:

Was the Word. Greek, "was the Logos." This name is given to him who afterward became flesh, or was incarnate (Joh 1:14)--that is, to the Messiah. Whatever is meant by it, therefore, is applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ. There have been many opinions about the reason why this name was given to the Son of God. Those opinions it is unnecessary to repeat. The opinion which seems most plausible may be expressed as follows:

1st. A word is that by which we communicate our will; by which we convey our thoughts;

2nd. The Son of God may be called "the Word," because he is the medium by which God promulgates his will and issues his commandments. See Heb 1:1-3.

3rd. This term was in use before the time of John.

(a) It was used in the Chaldee translation of the Old Testament, as, e.g., Isa 45:12: "I have made the earth, and created man upon it." In the Chaldee it is, "I, by my word, have made," &c. Isa 48:13: "Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth." In the Chaldee, "By my word I have founded the earth." And so in many other places.

(b) This term was used by the Jews as applicable to the Messiah. In their writings he was commonly known by the term "Mimra "--that is, "Word;" and no small part of the interpositions of God in defence of the Jewish nation were declared to be by "the Word of God." Thus, in their Targum on De 26:17-18, it is said, "Ye have appointed THE WORD OF GOD a king over you this day, that he may be your God."

(c) The term was used by the Jews who were scattered among the Gentiles, and especially those who were conversant with the Greek philosophy.

(d) The term was used by the followers of Plato among the Greeks, to denote the second person of the Trinity. The term nous, or mind, was commonly given to this second person, but it was said that this nous was the word or reason of the first person. The term was therefore extensively in use among the Jews and Gentiles before John wrote his Gospel, and it was certain that it would be applied to the second person of the Trinity by Christians, whether converted from Judaism or Paganism. It was important, therefore, that the meaning of the term should be settled by an inspired man, and accordingly John, in the commencement of his Gospel, is at much pains to state clearly what is the true doctrine respecting the Logos, or Word. It is possible, also, that the doctrines of the Gnostics had begun to spread in the time of John. They were an Oriental sect, and held that the Logos or Word was one of the AEons that had been created, and that this one had been united to the man Jesus. If that doctrine had begun then to prevail, it was of the more importance for John to settle the truth in regard to the rank of the Logos or Word. This he has done in such a way that there need be no doubt about its meaning.

Being born again by the Word of God is being born again by Jesus Christ, to whom the Father gives Him. The Incorruptable Seed is the Seed of the Father, we are born again by The Spirit of Christ, the Sperma of God, now we Call Him Father by His Seed Christ that is in us.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This is the perfection of God, that is Christ in you The Hope of Glory;

Who are born again by? The Word Jesus Christ Himself, the Incorruptable Seed of the Father.

By who's Faith do we believe before and after salvation? The Faith of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

How do we live this life?

Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

What is He the minister of? Justification and righteousness by Jesus Christ.

If this Faith is the Faith of Jesus Christ and the Faith is means of justification in Christ, who must the Faith come from first?

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So before salvation it is the Faith of Jesus Christ and after salvation it is the Faith of Jesus Christ that we now live this life in the Flesh.

The Father gave them to Christ, Christ gave them faith to believe and salvation by Grace through Faith and that not of yourselves if is perfect in its God intended chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Not unto salvation but given to Christ to be formed in Christ and Christ formed in us.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now what?

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Christ liveth in me by the Faith of the Son of God: Phillip

Hey roaringlamb,

That used to happen to me all the time, so what I did, is any time I'm about to post, I first highlight the text that I'm posting, and I "ctrl+c" it. Then if that happens, I just reload the website, and "ctrl+v" it back in until it let's me post. No worries though, I'm in no rush.

Christinyou,

I read your post briefly, like I spent about ten minutes reading it quickly, I plan to read over it again a little later, but I am not quite sure what the whole point is of what you posted, maybe it will be clear later when I read it again. If you have time, a brief summary of it would help. Thx

"" They cannot be saved before they have faith, so if the preverbial ears are the faith, Paul says that faith comes by hearing, so the ears/faith cannot be before the faith comes""

They can't be justified without faith and that faith must be be faith that believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That Faith must come from Jesus Christ Himself. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This "word" is narrative utterance. This faith is after the initial Faith imputed to the believer that saves and justifies unto becoming son's of God.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This "word" is Logos, The "Word" Himself Jesus Christ. John 1: 1-4

The Hearing the Word must be Christ and His Faith or the hearing does not work. Galatians 2:17-18 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

It must be the Faith of Christ the Word that brings the believer to the point of believing Faith, to receive justified salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

My glory is in the Faith of Jesus Christ imputed to me that I might believe and be justified in righteousness in salvation by Jesus Christ.

It cannot be done without the impartation of this Faith in the believer. My faith leaves me unjustified and still a sinner. If it was my faith it would make Christ a sin minister and that is not possible. By His Faith my faith becomes saving faith, not sinners faith.

Christ liveth in me by the hearing of Faith: Phillip