Drinking Wine???

While scripture is full of warnings concerning the excessive comsumption of alcohol, there is no prohibition. Over the years I've heard all the arguments, all the debates. I've heard people try to explain that the wine Jesus turned the water into was really grape juice.

Fact is, it wasnt grape juice, it was wine.

Anyway, I digress. No where in scripture is the drinking of alcohol forbidden or off limits for the believer. However, drunkeness is clearly forbidden. All things in moderation.

The question the believer has to ask himself tho is... why drink alcohol anyway? Now, there are some health benefits to drinking wine/beer. I've read a lot of articles about how a glass of wine/beer daily along with a piece of dark chocolate can help reduce levels of bad cholesterol.

Muscadine wine is almost 10 time more effective at reducing cholesterol than any other natural way, including red wine. I say when there is a natural way to acheive good health, do it that way rather than lining the pockets of the pharmecuetical companies and waiting to find out that that pill will increase your risk of sudden death.

But other than the health benefits... what does a Christian gain by drinking alcohol? Thats a personal question each of us must ask ourselves.

Personally, it's no secret that I do have a glass of wine, usually privately with my wife... and probably only a couple times a year.

I do have a beer now and then, again only a few times a year, and never more than one. If I'm out mowing the lawn or something, and it's 98 degrees in the shade, I'll have a cold beer.

I do not encourage others to follow me in this, I encourage others to seek God, and ask Him what it is that He wants for them. It might be different for them for many reasons.

Whenever there is no clear directive from scripture concerning a topic, this is what the believer needs to do. Pray about it, seek God, and let the Holy Spirit teach them. The Holy Spirit may convict them differently than He does someone else. We can not comprehend the mind of God, and there may be reasons why one believer is convicted one way, and another isnt.

This is a lot like the topic of keeping the sabbath, and which day is the sabbath... Paul addressed it like this:

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. [b]Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.[/b]

Hope that helps. I'm sure some will strongly disagree with me, and say that my answer will encourage people to drink... but if thats what you think, then you dont understand what I'm saying. Truth is truth, and sometimes truth is hard to wrestle with.

Krispy

By the way, it's interesting that if you look down thru history, the total abstinance of alcohol in the church is a relatively new concept. It really has more to with the Prohibition Era in America than it does with scripture. The "Temperance Movement" of the 1800's did much to change the church's stand on alcohol.

From what I understand, attitudes among Christians in Europe concerning alcohol is quite different than it is here in the US. Perhaps some of our European brethren could address this?

Again... certainly am NOT promoting the consumption of alcohol... just dealing with facts instead of emotions. People need to study these things to show themselves approved. Not just go along with the crowd.

Krispy

Tells me that God can surly deliver a drunkard to life.

Here's the thing... before I was saved I was a drunkard. I never drank wine, my drink of choice was beer and whiskey. Jack Daniels took a hit on their profit margin the night I got saved.

My wife and I drink wine on occasion, but we are very strict in our use, we never like to drink around the unsaved if we can avoid it, and we stick to non-alchoholic beverages when friends that don't drink come over.

Very important point you make here, Ben. Paul had a lot to say about the Christian's liberty. No where does it apply better today than to this topic. My wife and I do exactly as you are saying here too... I will give up my liberty so as not to be a stumbling block to a weaker brother. Love is the guiding light here.

However, nor would I lie about my stance and cause someone to think that I do not partake from time to time. But I am careful not to "flaunt" my liberty.

Krispy

Krispy, as to the grape juice thing-- nonsense! The Greek word represented in the NT (Oenos) is wine.

Yea... that was kinda my point. :-)

Krispy

[u]Sipping Saints[/u]

An outcry against the alarming spread
of drinking among Christians

By David Wilkerson

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" (Proverbs 20:1).

This nation is fast becoming a sodden society of too many intoxicated citizens. Alcohol is now the modern golden calf, and millions of people, young and old, male and female, have been seduced by it.

The teetotaler, the prohibitionists, and all the others who have for years fought against this flood of booze have been laughed out of existence. We laugh to scorn those old-fashioned little ladies who went around smashing barrels of whiskey and shutting down bars and honky-tonks, and taking pledges of abstinence.

We liberated moderns have made it fashionable to drink. It is now considered sophisticated, urbane, cool - to drink socially. Try saying "No" to the airline stewardess who keeps pushing drinks at you from the time you get on the airplane till you deplane. "What do you mean, no drinks?" She looks at you as some kind of kook for refusing free drinks.

People are offended nowadays when you refuse their offer of a complimentary drink. They try to make you feel unneighborly for not joining them, or that you are putting on a "holier than thou" attitude. Even President Carter couldn't keep drinks out of the White House.

"Be not among winebibbers..." (Proverbs 23:20).

To me, the real tragedy is that so many who call themselves "Christian" are now drinking. I call them "sipping saints," because that is how it all begins - one sip at a time.

A recent poll revealed that 81% of all Catholics now drink and 64% of all Protestants. These shocking figures keep mounting higher each month. The permissive attitude toward social drinking is fast creeping even into the most conservative, evangelical church circles.

I have spoken at Charismatic conventions where thousands of "Spirit-filled" saints of God lifted hands in praise and adoration to God - and after being dismissed, numbers of them walk out into the parking lot, open their car trunks and pull out a couple six-packs and pass them around to fellow worshipers. Others order mixed drinks with their restaurant meals, in between the praise sessions. They return to speak with "pickled tongues."

"And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands" (Isaiah 5:12).

The prophet Isaiah has a message for the entire Charismatic movement - in both Catholic and Protestant circles.

"God's people are in captivity to these things because of a lack of knowledge . . . But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness" (Isaiah 5:13-16)..

The prophet Hosea said, ". . . wine and new wine take away the heart . . ." (Hosea 4:11).

This suggests that sipping saints have divided hearts.

Spirit-filled people lay claim to being "kings and priests" unto the Lord. The Bible emphatically states,

"It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes strong drink, lest they drink and forget the law . . ." (Proverbs 31:4,5).

The writer of Proverbs suggests happy, overcoming Christians don't need wine, that it is only for the depressed and dying.

"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts" (Proverbs 31:6).

A fine Christian lady wrote to me saying:

"We are good church-going Christians. We love the Lord, and we see nothing at all wrong with serving wine in our home. We drink moderately, and our children are learning to drink under our supervision. They do not overindulge. We have never seen anyone drunk in our home.

"You are simply trying to make us feel guilty and are pushing your fundamentalist morals on us. We were not raised under the legalistic taboos like you evidently were. Frankly? sir, our drinking habits are none of your concern."

God bless that dear lady - but one of these days it will be my business. It starts becoming my business when those teenagers go out with their friends and get stoned.

Just today, one of my students, a converted alcoholic, told me how she became a drunkard. Her parents taught her how to drink moderately. At parties, birthdays, and when company came, everybody took a social drink. It was served at meals. She admired and loved her parents. They despised drunkenness, yet they had a bar in the house.

This young lady started going to teenage parties and began to drink socially with her crowd. That led to drinking in clubs. Soon she was getting stoned in parked vans. Finally, when problems began to pile up, she began to lean on wine heavily. She ended up in a mental institution, a hard-core alcoholic.

That same story is repeated to me over and over again from coast to coast. How many, many times I've heard it, "My parents were considered good Christians. They went to church. But we always served wine or beer at our house. My big brother drank moderately and he was my hero. I drank to be like my parents and big brother, but I couldn't handle it. But they made me think drinking was the thing all good people do."

Am I prejudiced? Narrow-minded on the subject? You bet I am! And I have reason to be. My own brother, a minister's son, started drinking beer moderately - just to be sociable with friends. He wound up a heavy drinker, leaving his wife and lovely children to pursue his habit. Thank God he is saved today and back with his family.

But I sent my brother Jerry with a team of converts to Europe to testify about what Christ did in delivering him from the power of alcohol. The Christians in Europe gladly rejoiced in the testimonies of deliverance from dope and prostitution - but they didn't want to hear a word about Jerry's deliverance from alcohol. Why? Because European Christians guzzle wine and beer like water. It broke his heart.

I have heard all the excuses for the drinking among Christians in Europe - and I can't accept any of them. They blame it on impure water. They talk about it being rooted in their culture and customs. They drink "because they have always done it."

How deeply offended some of the pastors were in Paris, France, when I refused to drink their wine. American missionaries, who themselves easily adopted the European customs, told me I should "do as the Parisians do, while in Paris!" Yet, how deeply offended I was when some of these same ministers were so stoned they couldn't stay awake during my crusade.

There is an alarming rate of alcoholism and heavy drinking in Christian circles in Europe. They do get drunk! They are not all moderate! None of their excuses make it right. And what phoniness for American Christians to drink "only in Europe." They won't touch a drop here in the States, but they think it's "cute" to join the brethren over there in sipping a few!

I am deeply offended by drinking Christians because of the terrible example it sets for young people! This nation is now facing a plague of drinking among teenagers. The two most popular words in school today are "cruising and boozing." Drunkenness is spreading in our schools like a wildfire out of control. Kids tell me that as many as 80% of their class not only drink, but get stone drunk. We face the possibility of having over one million young alcoholics next year.

I've been helping drug addicts for 20 years. But this drinking rage now sweeping our nation frightens me. They drink now because they think alcohol won't"waste" them like drugs! Booze is now the preferred "liquid pot." Everywhere you see teenagers getting stoned, they tell you - "No cops, no parents, no politicians can hassle us now - because they are all doing it, too. We finally found a kick that won't put us behind bars!"

I don't want to get involved in that age-old argument about the Bible and fermented wine as opposed to grape juice. But the more I see of these bombed-out, broken-down, hopelessly drunken young people - the more I am convinced Jesus did not mock that crowd at Canaan's wedding feast with the same stuff that is destroying our youth today.

Christ came to fulfill the law! The law says, "Wine is a mocker . . . whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Was Christ deceived? Would he have served a drink that would have led to a man leaving a feast drunken to heat up his wife? And in court that man is asked, "How did you get so drunk?" And the convicted man answers, "I went to a wedding feast. Jesus of Nazareth served up a really strong drink. He got me drunk."

I can't conceive that Jesus would mock that crowd and serve a drink that could have been abused if taken immoderately. I believe that elixir Jesus served was the pure juice of the vine - a supernatural punch so full of nature's true blend, it was a unique and welcome change! Would Jesus add alcoholic content to His supernatural drink and make it "bite the cup" when the law said -

"Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright . . ." (Proverbs 23:31)?

That was written by a king who had "given himself over to wine" (Ecclesiastes 2:3). And Christ would have never, never given the guests over to wine that was intoxicating.

Paul knew the law, too. He revered the wisdom of Solomon. Pure juice of the grape is good for the health! It is nutritious. But fermented wine is not more nutritious, according to a doctor friend of mind who is well read on the subject. How could Paul recommend drinking alcoholic wine when the law he respected so warned, ". . . be not among winebibbers..."?

But the real issue is not whether or not the New Testament refers to fermented wine or grape juice. The real issue is the abuse of it that is so prevalent today. Solomon had three thousand wives. At one time, Moses permitted divorce. God winked! But God does not wink when His laws become so perverted and abused. Look where our permissiveness has led us. So-called Christian discos, featuring beer drinking and dancing to Christian music. Rocking, rolling, drinking "Christians."

"...Lest they drink and forget the law..."

We are forgetting the laws of God, the very laws Jesus said He came to fulfill. We now allow a lesbian priest to be ordained in the Episcopal church. Homosexuals not only flaunt their sins, they boldly seek recognition and power within the church.

One million new divorces this year. Ten million kids victims of broken homes. Nude dancing in the church sanctuary. Liberal ministers mock old-fashioned biblical sex standards. They now tell our kids, "Masturbation is a gift from God to relieve your tensions."

And the lawlessness to end all lawlessness, some of our church agencies have been serving as fronts for anti-God, Communistic anarchists seeking to destroy democracy - using the churches' missions money to engage in covert acts of violence.

Do Christians drink because of ignorance? Has no one challenged them by the Word of God? Do these new converts from the Jesus movement drink to prove they are liberated and not under law?

A young lady, a member of a Christian love commune, wrote to me recently and said, "Sure, we all drink. Jesus did; Paul did! The Bible is not down on it. Our leaders drink moderately. They are good Bible teachers and they travel, speaking at youth gatherings." Yes - and I happen to know some of them also smoke. They mix Jesus with their heavy rock music, and only God knows where the compromise ends.

They seem to think that adding the word "Jesus" to anything sanctifies it and makes it all right.

You say - "Don't judge, David! What about the beam in your own eye?"

I am not anyone's judge. I have not set myself up as some kind of spokesman for any group. But Paul said, "We judge those within - God judges those without."

It's time judgment was called for! It's time all drinking Christians were challenged! It's time for the Holy Spirit to expose the looseness, the slaphappy "anything goes" attitude. If it's wrong for my dear converted alcoholics and addicts and prostitutes to drink, even moderately, then it is deadly wrong for mature Christians to drink and set a poor example for them.

And I get very weary and spiritually indignant when drinking Christians come back at me with - "Aw, you're just a fundamentalist, law bound, moral do-gooder. We modern, liberated Christians are free in Christ. We are not under law. We will not be bound by your attacks on our freedom."

That offends everything in me that yearns for godliness and holiness. That offends every young convert whom God has convicted of past drinking habits. And the Bible says -

"But whosoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" (Matthew 18:6-7).

I refuse to give in to the mounting pressures of worldliness - in the disguise of spiritual freedom! What has happened to us, saints of God - when we can sit idly by and not rebuke the fast eroding morals in the house of God?

I believe in free grace, but not licentiousness. I believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ, by faith. But I also believe the holiness of God demands that we "touch not that which is unclean."

I also believe that smoking ministers are not being honest with God. These "puffing prophets" refuse to practice what they preach. And drinking ministers are a reproach to the name and power of God.

It is not an effort to condemn true ministers of the gospel. But how can we as ministers and parents ask our kids to quit using drugs and alcohol, if we will not clean up our own lives - and set a Christ-like example?

At times, just for a fleeting moment, I think to myself, "Maybe I'm the one who is wrong. Maybe these new Christians who rock, roll, smoke, drink, and who go back to their old haunts to sing, entertain, and perform - maybe they have seen something in God I haven't yet seen. Maybe all these fast changes aren't compromise, but a sign of maturity and growth. Maybe I am too old-fashioned - too out of it to recognize some new thing God is doing."

But then I begin to compare the rollicking, boisterous sounds of their music with the old songs like "The Old Rugged Cross," and "Holy, Holy, Holy." Then I want to cry! I look at them going back into those smoke-filled clubs to entertain the drinking crowd on the pretense of taking Jesus with them, and then I compare them with all the millions of God's people over the centuries from the martyrs on down to the converted addicts and gangs of today, who forsook the world and all its associations to take on the reproach of Christ. I begin to weep for those compromised Christians. I know I am not wrong.

Please don't get mad at me! If you are one of the sipping saints - don't allow your hurt or anger to rob you of the truth. If you find yourself resenting this message of separation - it is probably because God has already convicted you - and He is now wanting you to enjoy complete freedom.

Pray also that God will lay it on the hearts of ministers all over the nation - to take a bold stand in their pulpits against these insidious trends.

Pray for our teenagers! The pressures on them to drink with the crowd are getting worse daily. They need to be encouraged to stand up and resist, lest they be drawn into this whirlpool of drunkenness.

Even if you don't "feel convicted" - abstain for the simple but powerful reason of setting an example for the youth!

"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things" (Proverbs 23:29-33).

is drinking responsible for evil and i believe we have great record to bare that it is

No, alcohol is not responsible for evil. People are responsible for evil. It's like firearms... firearms do not kill people, people kill people.

The problem is that as soon as anyone gets real honest with what the Bible says about "liberty" people take it to an extreme in both directions. Many confuse liberty with license, thinking that liberty is a license to sin, which it is not.

The other never preaches or teaches about liberty because they are afraid people wont understand what liberty means to the believer and will therefore fall into sin... so they ignore it all together, and make up rules that people must follow in order to be a "true" Christian.

Thank the Lord Paul spoke and taught honestly about our liberty in Christ. Should we use this liberty as a license to sin? Absolutely not! God forbid!

But should we make up man-made rules to keep everyone walking the same line? No. God forbid this as well.

David Wilkerson (who frankly, I am not a fan of for other reasons) spells out his conviction concerning this issue. He makes some very valid points which I agree with. But he is promoting rules that are man-made rules which are not found in scripture.

I prefer to take an honest look at what scripture does and does not say, and not pay much attention to man's rules and lists.

Again, as stated previously, I am not encouraging Christians to drink. I am encouraging Christians to pray and seek God about this, and be honest with themselves. And understand that the Holy Spirit may convict someone else differently. We tend to think that because we feel convicted about something, then thats the way it should be and everyone who doesnt agree with us isnt a "true" Christian.

But this is not true at all. In fact, it's a lie. And who is the father of lies? Those notions do not come from the Holy Spirit.

It's the very root of spiritual pride. A sin much greater than most.

Krispy

Krispy:

David Wilkerson (who frankly, I am not a fan of for other reasons) spells out his conviction concerning this issue. He makes some very valid points which I agree with. But he is promoting rules that are man-made rules [u]which are not found in scripture[/u].

[u]Scripture:[/u]

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and [u]whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise"[/u] (Proverbs 20:1).

But he is promoting rules that are man-made rules

This is absolutely not true. He is promoting Christ in this issue and others.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" (Proverbs 20:1).

This is not a prohibition, this is a warning. Money can be a "mocker" as well, so can sex... neither of which is a sin when utilized in the proper context.

You're trying to make scripture say something that it doesnt, and therein lies the real issue for me. Not "can a Christian drink" but "Let's make scripture say something it doesnt so Christians wont drink".

Thats my issue. Thank you for illustrating my point so well. :-)

Krispy

I would avoid alcohol and tobacco altogether, if not for this very reason. Why open fatal doors, why give Satan ammo to fire at others to wound the conscience? If not consumed for medicinal purposes, I propose that an occasional indulgence in strong drink or tobacco is purely for self-enjoyment anyhow and should be easily expendable if one has died to self and is living for God.

I wont argue your points, mainly because they are excellent points.

It's reported that Charlse Spurgeon and DL Moody spent some time together. Moody had long admired Spurgeon’s sermons, and when Moody traveled to London, he went to meet the famous preacher. He was met at the door by Spurgeon himself, [b]smoking a cigar[/b]. Moody was shocked. “How can you, a man of God, smoke that cigar?” Spurgeon was not offended, but he replied, “The same way that you, a man of God, can be that fat.”

So, my point is this... while we all are making great point on both sides of this issue, ultimately this issue is one that needs to be decided between the believer and God. And we ought not to judge another's spirituality based on this issue alone... Period.

Krispy

Krispy

Money can be a "mocker" as well, so can sex... neither of which is a sin when utilized in the proper context.

You're trying to make scripture say something that it doesnt

The proper context is "Wine" here, nothing else.
I'm not trying to say anything but what scripture says plain and simple. Perhaps it's so simple that your missing it all together. I thinks this scripture is very plain. When one does and enjoys things of this world and try's to use the Word of God to vouch for it (like most people do) instead of conforming to the Word of God, perhaps they are yet still very carnal and in the flesh but certainly not speaking from or for the Holy Spirit but rather carnel and fleshly themselves.

Thank you for illustrating my point so well.

I don't believe you have a point except to use the Word of God to cater to your own fleshy desires instead of dieing more to your flesh that His spirit can be expressed in you, that your heart and mind are Christ's and not your own. We are to "conform" to God and His Word not Use His Word to cater to ourselves.

Brother Krispy, i do love you brother but your wrong. I disagree with you and you apparently disagree with me, so lets agree to disagree. I would hate to see anyone get hurt in this thread or for it to be locked. Again Krispy even though i disagree with you whole heartly, i do love you as my brother in the Lord and thats a fact!

The Lord Bless you Krispy :-)
_________________________________________________________

P.S.

I think it wise that i not continue speaking on this issue in this thread anymore. I sense in my Spirit at this very moment that it will only lead to "Vain Babblings" and "Un-Godlyness". God Bless.

If I have missed your point, then you have really missed mine. But some have grasped the heart of what I am saying... so it's ok if you disagree with me. I can handle it.

I love you too, man... but you cant have my Bud Lite!

(for you outside the US... the last line is from an American commercial. Just trying to add a little humor.)

Krispy

I heard that Spurgeon stopped smoking when the manufacturer of his tobacco of choice started making commercial "Spurgeon smokes this tobacco" or something similar, so he quite smoking...

Yes, this is true. First off, the cigar company never asked him if they could use his name and likeness in the advertisements, and secondly... he gave up the smoking for exactly the things I talked about earlier... he did not want to be a stumbling block.

People here need to look at the big picture of what someone is trying to say, and not just pick up on one line and take it out of context and make it seem like the person is saying the opposite of what they really are.

I think half the people on the forum here at SI are journalists for the Washington Post or something! lol

Krispy

Deleted

covenantword wrote:
amen Julian through my years of preaching there are two favorite quotes of sinners. Jesus drank and dont judge me.If someone believes that they can control sin they are deceived by it.You can never become an alcoholic if you never take a drink and when asked if drinking is wrong my response has been even if in moderation is the Holy Spirit leading you to drink and is drinking responsible for evil and i believe we have great record to bare that it is, then the bible tells us to abstain from the very presence of it.God bless

There are strong feelings on both sides of this debate, though as far as I've read it's been a nice polite thread :-)

I come from the opposite end of the matter from most people.

Many testify that they had been drinkers (often heavy) before being saved. I was the opposite, brought up very strict teetotal (Welsh chapel tradition), and very legalistic and repressed with it!

When aged about 30 I encountered for the first time those who were obviously truly born again, yet saw nothing wrong with an occasional glass of wine etc. It took quite a long time to get my head around this - how can a [i]Christian[/i] drink alcohol??? :-o

Yet, as others have said; while it isn't OK to get drunk there is nothing in Scripture about not drinking wine (except for the specific case of the Nazarite vow). This isn't an excuse, just a simple fact. Unlike some, probably, I don't need any excuse to drink, and in order to get drunk someone would have to forcibly pour the stuff down my throat!

Before the age of 30-ish, on the very rare occasion I'd tasted alcoholic drink (usually under protest, such as at a wedding, where it was difficult not to gag and spit out the small sip of sherry reluctantly taken for the toast!) I found it horrible.

To the question:

is the Holy Spirit leading you to drink

To be set free from the extreme legalism of my upbringing was the reason. My father seemed to think that anyone who touched alcohol (even without getting drunk) was wicked by definition.

So I made a deliberate decision, with the Lord's help, to walk free from that bondage. Only to find that I didn't like anything besides very sweet and low alcohol stuff anyway.

These days I occasionally (usually no more than once or twice a month - if that) have a small glass (one only) of Lambrusco (4% alcohol) in the evenings. I do enjoy the taste of this, but the main reason is because it's supposed to be good for the blood pressure!

I'm not recommending that anyone else does what I did, but in this case it was an important step of faith.

Blessings

Jeannette

Redeemedone, You asked:

He was using it to justify his drining habits, saying that Jesus himself used to to drink. I dont have any other explaination, but i dont believe this is true. Somebody help with a hermeneutical commentary please.

I know on the day of Pentecost the Apostles were accused of being drunk with New Wine.

I so love this verse in Proverbs. Now we know Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and the PRINCE of Peace.

We also know Jesus was without sin. The WORD became flesh and dwelt among us, so yep; these are His words all right. I believe personally that for Jesus to have gone against the Word, he would not have been able to redeem us of our sin. It took the spotless Lamb of God to do that.

Proverbs 31:4
It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

I have some lady friends who were told by their pastor that Jesus drank wine when He turned the water into fermented wine at the wedding feast. Now they (having never participated in drinking, drink LOTS of wine every time they get together.) When I tried to explain to them that the turning water into wine was symbolic of the blood of the Covenant, that it was not alcoholic as that would be (the fermentation is considered leaven-yeast)and how that was a total contradiction to everything Jesus taught, didn't go over well at all.

As far as they are concerned, Jesus turned water into fermented wine just for the pleasure of it all.

The natural mind cannot receive the things we know spiritually.

Best not to argue the point. They are sure to find the scripture they want to justify.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

KrispyKrittr wrote:
he [Spurgeon] gave up the smoking for exactly the things I talked about earlier... he did not want to be a stumbling block.

People here need to look at the big picture of what someone is trying to say, and not just pick up on one line and take it out of context and make it seem like the person is saying the opposite of what they really are.

As I said, I wouldn't recommend what I did to most people, but for me it was right, becasue of the legalism.

But we all agree that it's a bad thing to get drunk (though there are worse sins!)

The general rule I think re alcohol is, if in doubt don't.

But don't condemn those who do.

Blessings

Jeannette

PS, Wonder why Noah got drunk after the Flood? The poor chap made a bit of a fool if himself, but it was the son who saw him, (and, reading between the lines, probably mocked at him) who was condemned.

My personal theory is that the yeasts (and/or vine seeds that survived the Flood happened to be of a strain that produced a stronger kind of wine. (The real result of "survival of the fittest" is loss of genetic material, and cannot produce evolution - just in case any sceptics are on this thread). So Noah maybe got drunk by accident - it's the only time it's recorded so he was probably more careful afterwards"!

Even these days, home brew, they say, can be powerful stuff, and someone can get drunk before they realise its happening.

Just wondering...

wildbranch wrote:

-----" just thought that I would settle the issue, did Jesus drink?
Luke 7:33-35 33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35But wisdom is justified of all her children."

Yes Ben, thank you, the point is clearly made.

Along with: Eph 5:18 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery', there is no problem.

It means more than that of course, but that's the aspect I like best!

Jeannette

wildbranch wrote:
Rev 6:6 says: Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, 'A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!'

That is an interesting verse. As the rider on the black horse with the balance in his hand goes forth, a voice cries out showing the state of extreme inflation that will be prevalent at that time - and an injunction not to harm the oil and the wine.

I wonder if this is seen in a spiritual or physical sense, or both?

The 'oil and the wine' could be seen as those who 'have the seal of God' (from Ch 9), and should not be harmed, with the oil and wine perhaps representing the anointing and presence of the Holy Spirit. Or it could be literal provisions which are protected, maybe for those who find that place during the tribulation, the 'place prepared by God in which to be nourished'...(from Ch 12).

The 'oil and the wine' could be seen as those who 'have the seal of God' (from Ch 9), and should not be harmed, with the oil and wine perhaps representing the anointing and presence of the Holy Spirit.

While it can, like all Scripture, have a spiritual interpretation it mainly seems to speak of famine conditions, as one of the plagues upon the earth.

There is of course famine in many parts of the world even now, but it will get worse.

But thank you for reminding us that the Lord will keep His own, even in the most horrendous worldwide upheavals that are coming...

Blessings

Jeannette

Would you please site scripture of where in the Bible this is mentioned? Most specifically about the wine being symbolic of the blood of the covenant?

Miccah, from scripture ...here it is. Now you know there are no verses that say: "This is symbolic of this and that is symbolic of that".

But you will see through these verses what is meant by "symbolic".

Jesus first says to His Mother[u][b] “My time” [/b][/u] has not yet come.

John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, [u][b]and manifested forth his glory;[/b][/u] and his disciples believed on him.

Lets keep in mind that what Jesus did was for a [u][b]sign[/b][/u].

***Everything*** Jesus did was for a reason and purpose pointing to redemption and salvation.

Jesus prayer in John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Philippians 2:
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Hebrews 9:15And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Testament/Covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, ****************through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The Significance of the Miracle of Moses (Old Covenant )and Jesus Christ (New Covenant) have parallels:

The signs that God gave to Egypt in the Old Testament were plagues, destruction, and death, and the signs that Jesus did in the world in the New Testament were healings, blessings, and life. The turning of water to blood initiated Moses (a type of the Savior- Deuteronomy 18:15) leading his people out of the bondage of Egypt into an earthly liberty; the turning of water into wine initiated Jesus taking His people out of the bondage of the corruption of the world into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Romans 8:21). The turning of water to blood culminated in the firstborn in Egypt being delivered to death, while turning the water into wine culminated in the life of the Firstborn being delivered from death (Colossians 1:18).

We also see other miracles Moses did symbolic of Jesus Christ. One of my favorites was when the waters were bitter Moses threw in a piece of wood, and the bitter waters became sweet, signifying the Cross.

Exodus 15:

22So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.
23And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.
24And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?
25And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,

And we all know when Moses struck the Rock (Jesus Christ---our rock of ages) water came forth.

We also know when Jesus Christ was crucified out of His side came Blood and Water.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

Wasn't the wine back in the Bible times weaker than the stuff we have today?

Micah, my understanding is that it was. Not all wine in the Bible is fermented, but was called wine, or has been translated wine, whether fermented or not.

I may be wrong but the term *New Wine*, was not fermented, and that was the joke when the Apostles were accused of being drunk on New Wine.

The process of making wine in Biblical times is not how wine is made today. They actually went out of their way to prevent the fermentation process, by keeping it in wineskins or clay pots.

There is a verse also in scripture saying not to drink the wine when it turns a certain color.

I'll see if I can find these articles to post for you. I spent much time researching this years ago.

Alcohol is a drug...period. Wine or the fruit of the grape is not. Also researchers have found that Grapejuice has the same medicinel value as wine, and that grapejuice is great for the stomach....however alcohol is not.

We know alcohol causes liver disease among other things, and interfers in digestion...and should never be drunk on an empty stomach.

(((((Added/edited for common sense:

If Timothy were to have had or was working on an ulcer, oh my, alcohol was/is certainly not recommended. Not for that or for any thing that would irritate the lining of the stomach. I also don’t believe Paul recommended fermented wine to Timothy. There is no proof one way or another. Common sense just tells me so.))))

The more one researches these facts, possibly the more enlightened one becomes.

I have a friend who is a severe alcoholic. At the age of 13, her father gave her a glass of wine, and from that *one* drink, (sever allergic reaction...as alcoholism is) has been in and out of rehab's her entire life. She is a binge drinker, also a Christian. If she gets even one drop of perfume (that bad) on her tongue, she is off to the races, drinking rubbing alcohol, vanilla extract ect.

What I meant here too is, no one knew, until my friend had so many bouts, that the wine (church decided to change from Grape juice to wine) is what was setting her off.

Did Jesus really make fermented wine and serve it to already drunk people getting them even drunker. Did he also get children drunk too? Weddings were a community affair, including children as well.

Saving the best for last was referring to the Better Covenant, based on BETTER Promises. He ceertainly did save the best for last!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS Added for content

For years people argued that the ancients did not have a method for preserving grape juice, so it was bound to become alcoholic.

Actually, without a controlled environment, spoiled grape juice is more likely to become vinegar than wine.

There were three methods of preservation.
Boiling the juice to the consistency of syrup
“By boiling, the juice of the richest grapes loses all its aptitude for fermentation, and may afterwards be preserved for years without undergoing any further change.” - Herman Boerhave, Elements of Chemistry, page 81

Columella (1st century) said it was common in Italy and Greece to boil wine.

Pliny (62-113 AD), wrote that after two centuries of production, Opimian wine had the consistency of honey.

Virgil (70-19 BC) said to make wine keep, they boiled the juice down to ½ or 1/3 of its original volume.

The reason the Jewish Mishna teaches the Jews to water down their wine was because they commonly kept it in syrup form.

There are records giving instructions for reconstituting the syrup, depending on the kind of wine being used

Hesiod (8th century BC) said in the summer months, one part wine to three parts water was the correct amount.

Hippocrates(460-377 BC) said to use one part Thracian wine to twenty parts water.

Some regions built places where citizens could get hot, cold, or lukewarm water to mix with their wine, depending on the drink they desired. They were called “Thermopoliums” and several were found in Pompeii.

Filtration:
The gluten (or yeast) was separated from the juice. Without the gluten, fermentation could not take place.

Plutarch (46-120 AD) “Wine is rendered feeble in strength when it is frequently filtered. The strength or spirit thus being excluded, the wine neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind and passions, and is much more pleasant to drink.”

Pliny (62-133 AD) “The most useful wine was all its foce or strength broken by the filter.”

Refrigeration:

Juice kept at 45 degrees or less cannot ferment. If the juice is kept cool for a period of time, the gluten will settle to the bottom. Then the juice can be skimmed off the top and will not ferment even if it is warmed again.

Pliny described a wine called Aigleuces (“Always Sweet”) “They plunge the casks, immediately after they are filled from the vat, into water, until winter has passed away and the wine has acquired the habit of being cold.”

Marcus Pontius Cato (234-149 BC) “If you wish to have ‘must’ all year, put grape juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch. Sink it in a fishpond. After 30 days, take it out. It will be grape juice for a whole year.”

The Jews poured a small amount of olive oil on the top of juice placed in caves. The oil produced an airtight seal and the cool caves allowed large quantities of juice to be stored and sold at later times of the year.

Records consistently indicate that the best wines were considered to be the freshest, unfermented juice, even among the Gentiles.

Katy,

I know in my heart and spirit that the water that Jesus turned into wine at the marriage feast was "not" alcoholic as well as any other time Jesus or the disciples did "not" partake in anything alcoholic, and lastly, the last supper as well. Thank you for displaying so much information (of which i will save) and breaking it down. It's absolutely beautiful how you did it, and how knowledgeable you are on the subject. I learned a great deal from your post.

Blessings Sister

Julian, Thank you Brother!!!

I have to say I absolutely LOVE your signature line. I couldn't agree with you more.

There was one tid-bit of info I left out....that was how fermentation takes place. It is so gross, that just knowing it, would make even the liberal partakers think twice.

I shared it once, and was nearly stoned to death! Those who agree as we both do, got a great laugh!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Great Article Pastorfrin,

Thank you for sharing with us. You know, the greatest argument today from the drinking crowd of Christians is the comment...."Don't be drunk, but that a little is ok, because you are not drunk".

So I asked, if one were to put alcohol on the same scale as lying, and if a "little white lie" (1 point) as some like to call it, were in God's eyes equal to one glass of Wine (1 point), is a "little white lie" excused from the sin factor altogether. Even a little white lie can get you into a lot of trouble.

So many think God sees sin on a scale of 1-10. Yet God has no such scales.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

Pastorfrin, I really loved this part of the article you posted here. I also liked the part about poor Jews who couldn't afford to keep from fermentation, yet God just winked, because of their poverty, and that was the only reason why he allowed.

Considering we have the Riches that are in Christ Jesus along with this statement from the article you posted here, are you saying now you don't agree with what you posted?

We live by the Law of LOVE. And Love is that which dies to self, even those things we may see as lawful under Grace. A baby or carnal christian may certainly say..."I have a right, but a Mature Christian who sees and Know's their position In Christ gladly has given up those rights.

Quote:
Anyone who took a Nazirite vow, a vow to set himself apart for a period of special dedication and service to the Lord, was forbidden to eat or drink any product of the vine. He was specifically required to abstain from wine and strong drink (Num. 6:3).

The law of the Nazirite and the special regulations for priests and kings were evidently intended as a lesson for believers under the New Covenant. The offices of Nazirite, priest, and king are no longer reserved for a few. Rather, Christ has gathered all these offices to Himself, and as a member of Christ, each believer is simultaneously a Nazirite, priest, and king. Moreover, he performs each office at all times, during every moment of His Christian walk. He is always a humble servant displaying the contemptible marks of his calling, like a long-haired Nazirite. He is always a petitioner and intercessor before the throne, like a priest. And he is always a minister to those under his charge, like a king. After the example of his predecessors under the Old Covenant, he should refrain from alcoholic beverages, recognizing that they might in some way make his service ineffective or dishonorable. In performing his offices, there is never any pause. So, likewise, there is never any pause in his duty to shun alcoholic drink. He should practice total abstinence.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

I must agree with Brother Paul West on this issue, what ever we do in word or deed must be able to be done in the Name of Jesus Christ, for His glory. It may not be considered sin, but is it... 1 Cor. 10:23

Pastorfrin, I apologize if I misunderstood. I don't believe Paul was talking about alcohol here, but meat, sacrificed to idols. He does say, whether in food or on drink, do all to the Glory of God. I don't believe he specifically meant fermented wine.

I do believe many do take this verse to justify many things UNDER GRACE, because they are not under Law. That was a matter of conscience sake, not eating anything sacrificed to idols.

I see now that is not what you were saying.

The, "it may not be considered sin but is it 1 Corinthians 10:23".....threw me off there.

One who has lost their testimony or Ministry ( a gift from God), and turns it into wood hay and stubble, to find personal gratificatin certainly IS sin. They may insist all things are lawful for me because I am under Grace,(cheap perhaps) but I don't think it will fly.

Please accept my apologies!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

have watched him how he reacts when christians drink in moderation, and if he see you drinking, that will be the moment when you have lost all your testimony for Jesus in front of him.

Wow! How many feel that way, yet we don't know, or yes we do, that we do live in Glass Houses whether we like it or not.

We've become so much like the world, in order to woo the world to Christ. What a terrible mistake.

I live in an area where teh High School has teh highest mortality rate anywhere in the country. I nearly fell to my knees one day walking around the property of the Highschool, waiting for my daughter. They have a Memorial Ground area with all the children's names on plaques in the ground. Many of those Children lived in my neighborhood, I had known since they were in kindergarten. The #1 cause....alcohol....and driving under the influence. Respectable parents all going to church, professing Christianity, seeing nothing wrong with drinking....the occasional ...well!!

Now, my very best friends, Christians, with the permission, based on false theology, would rather get together and drink and gossip (it loosens the tongue you know)rather then fellowship in the Lord.

Oh well, it's late! I'm getting mellow-dramatic here I think!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Thanks for sharing!

Miccah,

The term Trinity isn’t used in scripture either, but careful study of the scriptures declare it to be so.

We know that alcohol is a poison and works as a **depressant** among other things.

There were many scriptures presented here, and the article presented by Pastorfrin had many scriptures as well.

As we all continue to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ,
We are to
*Rejoice in the Lord *!
Don’t cry in your beer.!

Let your conversations be seasoned with salt and full of grace this Holiday Season. Don’t let that which loosens the tongue (that little member can start fires from hell) cause any family arguments.

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Titus 2:12
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

1 Peter 1:13
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Remember too……..The JOY of the Lord is your Strength. Who would want to mess that up? Not me!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Chrisss:

“New wine” was wine that was not purposely stored for the fermentation process. Since it lacked much of the long-term fermentation, it was the most readily available wine of the poor. However, it is STILL fermented wine. That is why we are warned about putting “new wine into old wineskins.” The drink is still undergoing the fermentation process, and will likely expand as the carbohydrates (sugar interacting with yeast) ferment.

You know Chhrriss;

Putting "New Wine" in Old Wine skins. Now let's look at that for a moment. Jesus was not at all talking about Wine, or how to make wine...really!!! but the New Man. The New Covenant... I do believe Jesus Came to point to redemption, not wine making!

It's the idea of not mixing LAW Leavened---yeast--+ EVIL(Old Wineskins) with NEW Wine....(unleavened)New Covenant Life In Christ.

Yeast...leaven...fermentation... represents evil.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Cchhhrriiss,

There is so much information on this subject.

The verses here are comparing many ideas all together. Idon't believe Jesus came to instruct us on our sewing either.

Speaking of sewing, This will be the last stitch I will make on this subject. We will just have to agree to disagree.

God Bless!

Here is Mark 2: 18-28.

18And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

19And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

20But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

21No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.

22And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

23And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

24And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

25And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

26How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp3.htm

Love in Christ
Katy-did

PS Answweing your last statement

:-)

Interestingly, the Lord only forbade the eating of some types of yeast during the Feast of Unleavened Bread (during which they were only permitted to eat unleavened breads like Matzah). Jews were permitted to eat it during every other day.

I was referring to the spiritual application.

Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 16:11
How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Matthew 16:12
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mark 8:15
And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Luke 13:21
It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1 Corinthians 5:6
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:8
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Miccah,

You said you were looking for scripture on the subject of wine, fermented and unfermented. Here is another excellent article, and a book recommended, done by a pastor years ago who himself did extensive reserch on the subject.

God Bless!
Katy-Did
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/bibleandwine.html

Good Morning Christiaan/ Miccah,

When was saved, I was a non-drinker at all, no exceptions. I held a very strict thought on this and would not bend. What I found as I grew in my faith was that this thought of not drinking was because of what it had done in my life before I was saved, not from what the Lord said.

I know exactly what you mean here. I think Jeannette was saying the same thing. And OH do I understand being brought up under legalism.

I think sometimes we take those who have gone before us, and have grown in the Lord, believing them to be legalistic, rather then mature.

But, it really is a matter of the Heart. When we're in the flesh, yes, those things sound very legalistic. When we are in the Spirit, and we know those Laws producing an Godly and Holy Life are written on our heart by the finger of God.

It wasn't just the 10 Commandmants written there, but the whole council of God, the HOPE of our Calling, Christ formed in us, and so much more.

Then Proverbs 8 (the Wisdom of Christ made unto us)has a higher intelligence.

The Law Kills absolutely. It kills a life so desiring to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. That, the law can never do. Like putting New Wine in old wineskins...it surely will bust.

Why? That old skin, can never stretch to *the height, depth, length and width* ( Ephesians 3)
And to Know the Love of God who passes on this knowledge and wisdom to us through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

If it's not there we live and have our being, one can keep the law all they want...never drink a drop of alcohol, wear lipstick, earings, painting the bumpers of your car black, and the list goes on and on, will never measure up to the righteousness that we have in Christ Jesus. True Christianity is always carrying about in our flesh the dying of Jesus, that the Life ( Spiritual walk) of Jesus is made manifest. There is no other walk.

May God Bless you always.
I know I said I wouldn't make another stitch here, but I did forget to tie the knot!! :-P

Love In Christ
Katy-Did ;-)

deleted, double post, very sorry

katy-did:

I know I said I wouldn't make another stitch here, [u]but I did forget to tie the knot!![/u]

No, Christians are to abstain from every form of evil

Actually, what scripture says is: [b]1 Thess 5:22[/b] Abstain from all [i]appearance[/i] of evil.

This is actually an even stricter standard.

But let me say this... Guns are sometimes used to murder (sin). Alcohol sometimes is used to get drunk (sin).

Should we therefore say Christians should never touch a gun?

Guns are used to attain meat, and also for sporting events.... when used in the correct manner.

Alcohol can be used in a correct manner as well. Wine goes well with some Italian meals, enhancing the taste of the food.

Me, I like a dark amber beer with a good steak. Not to get drunk or feel a buzz... but it just tastes good.

I dont hear anyone saying it's a sin to target shoot, even tho a gun can be used to commit grevious sins. Worse acts than drunkeness.

There is no prohibition in scripture agaisnt the moderate, correct use of wine.

Period.

Krispy

Krispy:

Actually, what scripture says is: 1 Thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. This is actually an even stricter standard. But let me say this... Guns are sometimes used to murder (sin). Alcohol sometimes is used to get drunk (sin). Should we therefore say Christians should never touch a gun?
Guns are used to attain meat, and also for sporting events.... when used in the correct manner. Alcohol can be used in a correct manner as well. Wine goes well with some Italian meals, enhancing the taste of the food. Me, I like a dark amber beer with a good steak. Not to get drunk or feel a buzz... but it just tastes good. I dont hear anyone saying it's a sin to target shoot, even tho a gun can be used to commit grevious sins. Worse acts than drunkeness. There is no prohibition in scripture agaisnt the moderate, correct use of wine. Period.

Good Grief! Little to no discernment. Not judging, just - " you will know them by there fruits ".

Sorry again, don't know why i'm getting double post's.

Good Grief! Little to no discernment. Not judging, just - " you will know them by there fruits ".

So whats it been for me? Several years and something like 4,000 posts on here... and you'll judge my salvation on this topic?

Thats the definition of foolishness.

So far not one person has produced any evidence from scripture forbidding the moderate, responsible consumption of wine (mainly because there isnt any!). Just a lot of judging.

We all like to consider this to be a forum for mature and serious Christians... but when we get on a topic like this it causes me to wonder if that's true.

A dark amber beer with a steak is demonstrating a "lack of discernment"? Why? Would a blush wine be better? lol....

Krispy

PS Again... I'm not promoting drinking. I'm promoting that we should not add to scripture by coming up with restrictions and lists of sins that are not in scripture. Adding to or taking away from scripture is forbidden, and will cause a person to be anathema.

So whats it been for me? Several years and something like 4,000 posts on here... and you'll judge my salvation on this topic?

I don't think you can really use that to defend yourself with.

Although I completely agree with you Krispy about this topic, you can search all day but will never find any Scripture that says drinking alcohol is a sin.

I don't think you can really use that to defend yourself with.

Richard, I think you misunderstood what I was saying...

I was trying to point out that there are several years of posts numbering over 4,000 on a plethura of different topics and theological debates with which one can get a good idea of my own beliefs... and with which one can get an idea of my personal walk with God... yet Julian is willing to completely write me off because he disagrees with me on [b]this[/b] topic.

Thats not right, and it's foolish.

If anyone wants to get to know more about me there is plenty here with which to do go about that. I've beared my heart and soul on this forum. Go back and get to know me, and then read my thoughts on this topic in the context of everything else I've written and shared on here.

Krispy

Just thought I'd sew a little top stitching here!!

you will know them by their fruits

AMEN!! Brother Julian!

I attended a church years ago, briefly, who the Pastor said, "Grace means God has set you free to do anything you want....and so they did. Wine was acceptable, but not all in this denomination agreed with his particular teaching or Pastor.

Very liberal in his approach to what GRACE meant, " God setting you free to do anything you want" were his exact words.

and.....

Yes they did, do anything they wanted.... and with that were many affairs, and divorces within the Church, including the Minister of Music, and Youth Pastor. So bad was the reputation of this Church, the other denominations including those within the denomination refused to fellowship and forbid their congregation to have fellowship, including sports (these Church teams would play one another)with this Church.

(30 Years later, this church has never lost that reputation, even though there is a New Pastor ( Godly) he has to carry the burden of what went on before him.

Grace is NOT being set *free* to do anything you want. You were set free from SIN, the WORLD, and SELF. God brought you out (of Egypt..the World) to bring you (IN ..to Chirst).

Paul said, *who's appetite is in their shame*...who mind earthly/worldly things. Philippians 3

*****Proverbs 11:30
The [i][b]fruit[/b][/i] of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

No wonder *GRACE* takes such a bad rap.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

yet Julian is willing to completely write me off because he disagrees with me on this topic.

I will take a long break from the forums. There's just to much spiritual immaturity going on right now, all in the name of Christ.

I will take a long break from the forums. There's just to much spiritual immaturity going on right now, all in the name of Christ.

It would seem to me that the spiritually immature thing to do would be to run away. :-)

Guess you and I dont agree on much. I apologize that I dont live up to your standards of what you think a Christian is.

Krispy

If you do believe that drinking alcohol moderately is permissible, why would you debate it?

Krispy, what is the point in you speaking about how you like to drink alcohol knowing it offends some? Surely you do know it since so many are up in arms about it.

I'm not debating alcohol... I'm contending that we can not make the Bible say something that it doesnt say. I'm not bragging that I have a drink once or twice a year, or that I may smoke a cigar when I'm camping 3 miles off of the beaten trail. Thats not the point... the point is Christians have rules (usually for other Christians) that have [b]absolutely NO[/b] foundation in the Word of God.

Thats wrong.

But there is no way of making that point without someone saying that I'm promoting drinking (which I am not).

But thats ok because many accused Paul of preaching license when he spoke of grace. I'm in good company. It didnt keep Paul from preaching the [b]truth[/b], and your misunderstanding of me and your accusations will not deter me from declaring the truth. The misunderstanding of my point is as old as scripture itself.

It's funny that Jesus obviously never got drunk, for that is a sin. Yet, he did drink wine, and did reach out to people who were drunkards... and the religious people misunderstood Him and accused Jesus of being a drunkard too. Some things never change.

If the truth offends you, thats not my fault, brother.

Krispy

Katy-did wrote:

When was saved, I was a non-drinker at all, no exceptions. I held a very strict thought on this and would not bend. What I found as I grew in my faith was that this thought of not drinking was because of what it had done in my life before I was saved, not from what the Lord said.

I know exactly what you mean here. I think Jeannette was saying the same thing. And OH do I understand being brought up under legalism.

However the next bit of your post here puzzles me.

I think sometimes we take those who have gone before us, and have grown in the Lord, believing them to be legalistic, rather then mature.

But, it really is a matter of the Heart. When we're in the flesh, yes, those things sound very legalistic. When we are in the Spirit, and we know those Laws producing an Godly and Holy Life are written on our heart by the finger of God.

However, it [i]sounds[/i] as if you are saying that those of us who think drinking in moderation is OK are immature?

Maybe I don't appreciate the temptations of alcohol, never having experienced them, and because coming out of that legalistic attitude to drink was such an important step in my walk with the Lord.

I also have difficulty in [i]really[/i] grasping how anyone could become an alcoholic, because the stronger stuff tastes (and in the case of beer, smells) so foul to me. Unless it's very sweet and low alcohol, even good wine tastes, at best, like a dose of OK cough medicine!

But of course to a drinker it's the alcohol, and the dishinibition and sense of "having a good time" that is the important thing, not the taste. I like the taste of Lambrusco because it's like lemonade with a zing to it, that's all. Ginger pop (I think you call it root beer in the US???) has the same sparkle if put in the fridge, and i enjoy it just as much. And why drink cider if you can get good quality apple juice?

In theory I appreciate that alcohol is a terrible temptation to many, and the importance of not causing a brother to stumble, but in practice it's so totally out of my personal experience...

Maybe let's look at the key passage in Romans 14 (my emphasis). there are challenges here for those on both sides of this debate:

[color=990000]...3 [b]Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not[/b]; and [b]let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: [i]for God hath received him[/i][/b].

4 [b]Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand[/b].

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. [b]Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind[/b].

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. [b]He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks[/b].

7 [b] For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself[/b].

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 [b]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ[/b].

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13 [b]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way[/b].

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [b]there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean[/b].

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. [b]Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

17 [u]For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost[/u][/b].[/color]

Amen!

Love in Him

Jeannette

In context of the rest of your post, you don't seem to mean it the way it sounds because you obviously understand the bonds of legalistic "faith".

Jennette, There is no such thing as "legalistic faith", for the Law is not of Faith.

I am so delighted hummmmm posted this SHORT ARTICLE, by Tears of Joy.

It will cut through the confusion you may have had in my comment.

The first posting was not mine, but Miccah's of which I repsonded to. In my very lame way of saying it, it was on the same thoughts as this Short Article.

Jesus Said, MY WORDS are Spirit and they are LIFE. The letter killeth, but the Spirit brings Life.

The natural mind (fleshly mind) cannot understand the things of the spirit because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 1-3 Paul addresses SAINTS, yet at teh same time, calling them carnal in their worldly thinking and understanding.

We need to be careful we don't confuse *carnality* with being unsaved. Carnality is that of our old Adam Nature rearing up it's ugly head wanting it's own way.

The Spiritually minded place Christ first, others second, and themselves last.

We GROW Spiritually out of our carnality, up into all the fulness of Jesus Christ.

We are a BODY, not individual believers who can say and do as we please. The Body has been given Gifts, for the edification of the BODY, Christ being the head.

Carnality see themself as an individual, wanting it's own way, doing it's own thing. Spiritual Christians see themselves as members of one another. When one cries, we all cry. When one is hurt, we all hurt. When one bring shame to the Body of Christ, we are ALL shamed.

With Love in Christ
Katy-Did

;-)

CARNALITY VS SPIRITUALITY

Taker -Taken
Assumes - Assured
Complains- Constrained
Contentious- Content
Competes- Concrete
Being Overcome- Overcoming
Given To Change- Living Changed
Divisive- Decisive
Trust The Visible- Trust The Invisible
Looks For Opportunity- Looks To Importunity
Independent- Dependent
Lives By Fearing-- Lives By Hearing
Lives by Feeling – Lives by Faith
Need to be taught – Are able to teach
Wants To Survive- Wants To Submit
Needs Excitement- Heeds Exactness
Preference Oriented- Principle Oriented
Needs Alternative-- Heeds Ultimatum
Makes Demands- Takes Commands
Reacts – Responds
Luke Warm – HOT, HOT, HOT!!!
Me, Myself and I – No longer* I* but Christ.
Seeks it’s own – Seeks that of others
Baby’s cry when they don’t get their way or feel falsely accused – Jesus did not open His Mouth.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Baby’s cry when they don’t get their way or feel falsely accused – Jesus did not open His Mouth.

Actually, thats not true. He was only silent when He stood trial. He was falsely accused during His whole ministry, and He regularly challenged His accusers and faced them... and had quite a bit to say. Sometimes in His own defense.

Sorry... but thats the truth. Didnt mean to pop your bubble.

Krispy

Sorry... but thats the truth. Didnt mean to pop your bubble.

No Krispy, but this may burst yours. Since WE are not GOD, Jesus addressing His Own, He came to His own, and they received Him Not, is and can never be used as an excuse exalting ourselves.

The Battle belongs to the Lord. Cast your cares on Him, humbling yourself before God and HE will lift you up and vindicate you if you need to be vindicated. We don't vindicate ourselves.

Krispy, one thing I read on this site was rules. In those rules it says you will get your feelings hurt and will be challenged.

What you did, in my opinion on a New Thread this morning....."Judgmental bla bla bla, was reprehensible. You took "your" hurt feelings and Gossiped and slandered a brother....that is called MURDER in God's eyes. Was it worth it? All those Poor Poor Krispy …boy, I bet it was nice being in the limelight at the expense of someone else. :-?

One thing, my greatest pet peeve…..Trying to look good at someone else’s expense….still never measure up to very much…ever!

1 Peter 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Sorry... but thats the truth. Didnt mean to pop your bubble.

Sometimes LOVE tells it like they see it. I tell you this in LOVE. You REACTED, and are still REACTING.

You are responsible for your own actions and tongue…regardless of what someone else has said or done. God allows those who are hammers and sandpaper in our lives for a reason….to conform US to His image. When we think it’s always the OTHER person’s fault, God shows us He is dealing with US……

God Bless
And
Love in Christ
Katy-Did

No Krispy, but this may burst yours. Since WE are not GOD, Jesus addressing His Own, He came to His own, and they received Him Not, is and can never be used as an excuse exalting ourselves.

I have no idea what this means, or how it applies to me or this topic.

The Battle belongs to the Lord. Cast your cares on Him, humbling yourself before God and HE will lift you up and vindicate you if you need to be vindicated. We don't vindicate ourselves.

Again... huh? Not sure what you're referring to here.

Krispy, one thing I read on this site was rules. In those rules it says you will get your feelings hurt and will be challenged.

Uh... yea... kinda learnt that lesson a few years ago, but thanx for the reminder.

What you did, in my opinion on a New Thread this morning....."Judgmental bla bla bla, was reprehensible. You took "your" hurt feelings and Gossiped and slandered a brother....that is called MURDER in God's eyes. Was it worth it? All those Poor Poor Krispy …boy, I bet it was nice being in the limelight at the expense of someone else.

First of all... what Julian said to me was done publicly. And he is free to join the conversation. But if someone says something publicly where everyone can read the entirety of the conversation in context, it's not gossip. It's not even slander. I said nothing about his character or him personally... I simply responded to what he said to me in a public forum. I think you should consider investing in a dictionary. There are some free one's online.

Also, if you think I did that to be in the limelight, then perhaps you should re-read the title of the thread... because you're sitting in judgement over my heart and my motives. This is exactly what the thread was about.

One thing, my greatest pet peeve…..Trying to look good at someone else’s expense….still never measure up to very much…ever!

It's amazing to me how some people can get it, and understand it... yet others can miss it so completely.

Sometimes LOVE tells it like they see it. I tell you this in LOVE. You REACTED, and are still REACTING.

There is no love in your response.

You are responsible for your own actions and tongue…regardless of what someone else has said or done. God allows those who are hammers and sandpaper in our lives for a reason….to conform US to His image. When we think it’s always the OTHER person’s fault, God shows us He is dealing with US……

Well, if you could so me how I have slandered Julian I would appreciate it. If you can show me where I was wrong I would be more than willing to repent and apologize publicly.

In the meantime, I dont consider you to be "sandpaper" in my life because you have completely misunderstood my postion, my motives and have set yourself as judge and jury over my life and my heart.

And that, my dear, is exactly what I was addressing this morning with that thread... but the mote in your eye wont allow you to see it. ;-)

Krispy

PS... about the limelight thing, this will probably sound like I am bragging, but I dont need to slander anyone to get people to read my posts.

Katy-did wrote:

In context of the rest of your post, you don't seem to mean it the way it sounds because you obviously understand the bonds of legalistic "faith".

Jennette, There is no such thing as "legalistic faith", for the Law is not of Faith.

Of course there isn't such a thing as "legalistic faith"! That's why I put it in quotes!

I am so delighted hummmmm posted this SHORT ARTICLE, by Tears of Joy.

It will cut through the confusion you may have had in my comment.

But I'm still no nearer understanding what you meant by what you wrote! Unless you meant it the way I fear you did.

Not that it touches me personally, one way or the other, (I would have much more difficulty giving up drinking milk or eating cheese than not tasting another drop of alcohol!) but for the sake of the Body (see below)...

The first posting was not mine, but Miccah's of which I repsonded to. In my very lame way of saying it, it was on the same thoughts as this Short Article.

If of course that really is what you meant - which I'm still by no means certain!

Jesus Said, MY WORDS are Spirit and they are LIFE. The letter killeth, but the Spirit brings Life.

The natural mind (fleshly mind) cannot understand the things of the spirit because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 1-3 Paul addresses SAINTS, yet at teh same time, calling them carnal in their worldly thinking and understanding.

We need to be careful we don't confuse *carnality* with being unsaved. Carnality is that of our old Adam Nature rearing up it's ugly head wanting it's own way.

The Spiritually minded place Christ first, others second, and themselves last.

We GROW Spiritually out of our carnality, up into all the fulness of Jesus Christ.

We are a BODY, not individual believers who can say and do as we please. The Body has been given Gifts, for the edification of the BODY, Christ being the head.

Carnality see themself as an individual, wanting it's own way, doing it's own thing. Spiritual Christians see themselves as members of one another. When one cries, we all cry. When one is hurt, we all hurt. When one bring shame to the Body of Christ, we are ALL shamed.

I understand, from Romans 14, that it is [i][u]equally[/u][/i] carnal to condemn those who drink or eat things we think are wrong, as to cause a brother to stumble through drinking.

Love in Him

Jeannette

I said:

There is hurt in the Body when a Christian sets a bad example by drinking, and especially if it causes another, who is maybe more vulnerable, to be tempted that way. But there is also hurt when someone is accused of being carnal if they drink (even if they are in no danger of being addicted and would never get drunk).

Maybe he would be more "spiritual" if he didn't react to these accusations, but reaction is understandable in the circumstances.

Romans 14:10
[color=990000]10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.[/color]

In Him

Jeannette

I'm feeling that hurt at the moment. Why is Krispy getting such flak for merely having an opinion that some disagree with?

I think in all fairness that can be said for all who have an opinion.

Yes, God looks at the heart.

So my question is, Why would you prefer a glass of wine over a glass of grape juice?

What is your motive? Relaxation...to get that buzz?
Hard day at the office and you just need something to help you relax? The answers will be very telling.

Krispy, No I am not married to Julian. I believe if one has an issue with another, they go to that person in private. If you wanted to pour your heart out...that's ok, and express your frustration with those who seem judgmental...that's ok too. But in all fairness, you must name EVERY PERSON who has offended you, not just Julian. That was my point. You posted that after getting off this thread.

Did you give yourself time to think it over? Did you first count to 10?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...right?

Agree to disagree, as I did with Ccchhhrriiiss.

If some don't understand your thoughts, you don't have to give an explanation...just simply say....I'm sorry you didn't understand that, maybe someday you will, and let it go.

I'm learning these things too. There is such a diversity here on line. We shouldn't use these threads to try to win arguments, but win souls to Christ.

How many unbelievers are looking in? Do you care what they think? Arguing about alcohol??

Personally, for me...I'm pressing on towards the mark of the High Calling of God in Christ Jesus. Even a good athletic coach will tell their team...no alcohol before the game.

The % of those who say they drink in moderation are few and far between. It is also interesting how many CHRISTIAN rehabs are in operation. What? Christian rehab!!!

Good night you guys!
God Bless
Love in Christ
Katy-Did