What do you think about Pres. Bush and this War in Iraq?

----How many of you know that Pres. Bush acknowledges outright that he's born again and saved by the blood of Jesus Christ? ... How many of you are aware of a book called "The Faith of George W. Bush", and that while he was still governor of Texas he had a dream (If I remember correctly) that something terrible was going to happen to America, and that he had to be president when it did? ... How many of you are aware that Pres. Bush believes himself "called by God" to be president, and that he stated this along with the telling of his dream, to a few men of the cloth, amongst them Billy and Franklin Graham and James Robison, while he was yet still governor of Texas? ... I personally believe that our current President is born again ... I also believe that although a Christian, President Bush has put American in this pre-emptive Iraqi war more out of vengence (which belongs solely to the Lord) for Saddam attempting to assassinate his dad, than anything else ... But what I find most intriguing is that whether soveriegnly or permissively, God has appointed/allowed him to office, so his being there apparently fits into God's divine plan ... God knew that Pres. Bush was going to drive America into this Iraqi quagmire ... Why do you think God has allowed this (or has in effect orchestrated this situation), and how do you think He will use this war now, and into our future, to His own glorious purpose in our world, our country, and His Church?

The following statements are only personal and maybe not intended for those with a different calling than mine. :-) The deeper i grow in Christ- the less I care one iota about the politics, etc... of this world- this earthly kingdom. I am always reminded of how the Jews thought the Messiah would come to overthrow the government and he would be some big king that all could see and obey. He didn't come to do an outward thing- but an inward thing. This is why they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah.Also, we are a country full of lukewarmness and compromise- why not have a president who fits this mold also. While many in this country gloat over the fact that 'our president is a Christian'- they are having the time of their lives in lukewarm heaven. Lead by example- hmmmmm. The state of this country is in apostacy- the Lord has allowed what looks to be 'good and true' to be in rule because that is what even christians want. They want a guy who claims all the right things and heads up what's on their agendas.I am so tired of this right wing conservative christianity in America- it has become one-in the same.American Christianity has so much of our culture and philosophy mixed with it. It almost seems to be powerless in the face of our social ills.The Gospel of Jesus Christ was far more confrontive and life changing than our gospel. Our gospel is a combination of the "American Dream", the “Declaration of Independence”, the "Historical Church" and some selected teachings of Jesus all rolled into one pleasing palatable gift offered to our confused and hurting world......This explains so much. Our country- with a president like this- is content to sleep with a "christian' president at the wheel. I am wondering if it would be more beneficial for the kingdom of God for us to have a morally corrupt president because at least it keeps the christians on their toes.This presidency has allowed many people to fall asleep thinking that all is well. I see the Lord allowing this to actually let the people fall into deeper apostacy. Time will tell. I am personally not concerned or care too much about this government. I am a foreigner in this world. :-) I do not consider myself an American- only a follower of Christ. I only pray that the Lord's will will be done on earth as well as in this country. Come Lord Jesus!In Him, chanin

Moreofhim, I totally agree with you. That is basically how I see things also.

You mentioned the poorness of the faith of the president (you must know that when it comes to politics and political figures I am almost completely knowlegeless)What are some things that the president has done that would be "bad fruit" that would make you question his faith? (not refuting your point, just asking for clarification) If discussing this is gosip, ignore it.matthew

(caps for clarity)SISTER CHANIN YOU STATED:"The deeper I grow in Christ- the less I care one iota about the politics, etc... of this world- this earthly kingdom. "WITH ME IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE ... I'M THOUROUGHLY FASCINATED BY THE FACT THAT EARTHLY GOVERNMENTS, POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES ARE ALL SUBJECT TO OUR LORDS WHIMS, WHETHER HE RAISES THEM UP, KNOCKS THEM DOWN OR USES THEM AGAINST ONE ANOTHER (AS I SEE HIM DOING RIGHT NOW) TO BRING FORTH THE MEND OF THIS CRACK IN INFINITY THAT WE CALL TIME, BY WINDING DOWN THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES, AND THE RULE OF SATAN IN THIS WORLD, TO THE BIRTHING OF HIS KINGDOM WITHIN A NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH.LIKE OUR OLD TESTAMENT COUNTERPARTS LISTED BELOW OUR JOB IS TO WATCH FOR THE SIGNS OF HIS COMING, TO PRAY, AND TO WARN:WATCH!Isa.21 [5] Prepare the table, watch in the watchtower, eat, drink: arise, ye princes, and anoint the shield. [6] For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Go, set a watchman, let him declare what he seeth. Isa.62 [6] I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,Jer.6 [17] Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.Jer.31 [6] For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.Ezek.3 [17] Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.Ezek.33 [2] Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: [6] But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. [7] So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.WHAT ARE THE SIGNS I WATCH FOR?Matt.24 [3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? [4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. [5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. [6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. [8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.THE ABOVE SIGNS TO WATCH FOR ARE THOSE OF "THE BEGGINING OF SORROWS" WHICH I PERSONALLY BELIEVE WE'VE BEEN IN SINCE WW1 ... THESE SIGNS WILL CULMINATE, AND BEGIN TO SPILL OVER INTO THE SIGNS TO WATCH FOR OF "TRIBULATION" (BELOW) ... WHAT I WATCH FOR IS THE BEGINNING OF TRANSITION BETWEEN ABOVE AND BELOW ... THE TRIBULATION:[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. [10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. THE GREAT TRIBULATION:[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: [33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. [34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. [36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.HIS ADMONITION TO HIS CHURCH TO WATCH, PRAY AND BE COGNIZANT OF CURRENT EVENTS BECAUSE THEY MARK EVEN MORE THE EMINENCE OF HIS COMING:Matt.24 [42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.Matt.25 [13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.Mark.13 [33] Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. [34] For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. [35] Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: [37] And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.Luke.12 [37] Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. [38] And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. [39] And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.Luke.21 [36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.1Cor.16 [13] Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.Eph.6 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;Col.4 [2] Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;1Thes.5 [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.2Tim.4 [5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.1Pet.4 [7] But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.Rev.16 [15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.Eph. [15] See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, [16] Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.PRES. BUSH MAY NOT BE A LOT OF PEOPLES DEFINITION OF A CHRISTIAN, BUT HE'S THE FIRST PRESIDENT I'VE EVER HEARD UNASHAMEDLY UTTER THAT CHRIST SAVED HIM ... WE ARE LIVING IN A TIME WHERE ALL THREE ABRAHAMIC ORIGINED RELIGIONS (JUDAISM, ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY) ARE ALL CONVERGING TO A FUTURE, POTENTIALLY CATACLYSMIC CLASH ... OUR PAST PRESIDENTS HAVE ALWAYS KEPT CHRISTIANITY OUT OF THE MIX WHILE ATTEMPTING TO JUGGLE JUDAISM AND ISLAM ... PRESIDENT BUSH HAS LIT THE FUSE OF THE AFOREMENTIONED POWDER KEG, BY ADDING CHRISTIANITY TO THIS MIX IN CLEAR ALLIANCE WITH JUDAISM ... I SEE THIS CLEARLY AS GOD'S HAND AND TIMING IN BRINGING US ALL TO THE BRINK OF TRIBULATION.

How many of you know that Pres. Bush acknowledges outright that he's born again and saved by the blood of Jesus Christ? While president Bush might have genuienly become a Christian sometime in the past, and was truly born again, I personally doubt he is currently living his life under the lordship of Jesus Christ. Although I will not say this about every political leader, it is difficult for me to imagine that a person who occupies such a high office in the world is a Christian. Obtaining such an office did not come without much political manipulation, exalting of the self, putting others down "unashamedly" as if they were but mere dogs. Bush just didn't wake up one morning, say he thought it'd be a good idea to run for President, then alerted this fact to the world and the general public through TV advertisments, and then just sat back and got elected. Nor does staying in such an office not come without the same political manipulation, exlating the self, and putting others down. Otherwise, a lot of folks who are wanting his job would have easily obtained it by now through the same methods that such offices are obtained, all while he sat around and did nothing.I believe Bush is there because God has ordained it, and frankly, he seems like the man we needed as a country since 9/11. I believe Bush might have geniuenly been born again at one point in time. But just being such does not make you a Christian. A Christian is one who follows the Lord. When asking if somebody is a Christian, the question should not simply be "Have they been born again?" Rather, the question should be "Are they following the Lord?" Many who have been born again have since abandoned the faith. Their past acceptance of Christ will gain them nothing on the day of judgment should they not be found faithful when the Master of the house returns from His trip. A dear sister in the Lord I know says the Lord has laid it upon her heart to pray daily for president Bush, because she says, he needs the Lord.

First as Rahman stated:WITH ME IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE ... I'M THOUROUGHLY FASCINATED BY THE FACT THAT EARTHLY GOVERNMENTS, POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES ARE ALL SUBJECT TO OUR LORDS WHIMS, WHETHER HE RAISES THEM UP, KNOCKS THEM DOWN OR USES THEM AGAINST ONE ANOTHER (AS I SEE HIM DOING RIGHT NOW) TO BRING FORTH THE MEND OF THIS CRACK IN INFINITY THAT WE CALL TIME, BY WINDING DOWN THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES, AND THE RULE OF SATAN IN THIS WORLD, TO THE BIRTHING OF HIS KINGDOM WITHIN A NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH.I agree with this thought as long as one is only watching for the signs and protecting the sheep. The question is: are we looking for man to solve the world's problems or do we seek to discern how God is working?Secondly, I believe the war was instigated to bring about economic objectives. Zignev Bresizinski wrote a book in I believe 1997, called: The Grand Chess Match. In this book he outlines strategies that would promote world wide domination of economic and political systems by the United States. If one were to read it now you would see a remarkable coincidence of historic facts that have occurred in 5 or 6 years that parralell this book. Thirdly, if you were to read a book written by Gregg Palast, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, you will get a glimpse of how the Bush family has ascended to power in this century. Remember Daddy Bush was head of the CIA before he became president. Grandpa Bush did business with the Nazi government before and during the WW2. "Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." James 4:4In ChristJeff

As a Political Scientist of sorts, it's rather interesting. Since I live in the D.C. area, what I see is bothersome to me, at least in terms of some of his appointees. I believe our current president is a man of faith, but much of what goes on is playing the part (again by some of his appointees).I also know that there oftentimes prayer meetings in the White House and other government officials as well. The current chaplain of the Senate is a very Godly man, as is his assistant.The work in the political arena is much like the church in the U.S. Much of it is pure fluff, "Having a form of Godliness and denying the power thereof" (2 Timothy 3:5). Then there are a remnant of true believers, who sincerely follow Christ and aren't in it for political favors or mammom of some sort or another.As to how this fits in prophetically, I'll save that for some other folks to discuss. I do believe we should pray for our political leaders and am confident we do have some godly leaders. Perhaps not a huge number (i.e. likely not a high number) but we do have some true followers of Christ. That's reassuring to me on some level but surely we should pray more.

Well, here I thought picking the 'lounge' to moderate was a safe bet ;-) My thoughts...hmmmm.First off, brother Rahman, go easy on the all CAPS, it's considered 'shouting' in Internet parlance, just a heads up.I am a 'Religious right flaming conservative' of the school of Rush Limbaugh...O.K. not totally.I used to be. So I am totally unoffended.Politics? I grew weary of the 'fluff' quite awhile ago, so much rhetoric. Was it right to go after Saddam? Yep. Terrorists? Yep.Is President Bush a Christian? I believe so, not as in 'former' but presently. I don't think his faith is for show, don't have any reason to doubt his sincerity. Has anyone read the aforementioned book? Just curious. I do understand that he reads his bible everyday and prays. Remember he is the President not a preacher and is also limited in his power by Congress and the Legislature. I would have bigger bones to pick with a lot of them frankly.I am also thankful that it was him in office when 911 happened."Issues" As a Christian I don't think it is to difficult to decide which 'side' of things we should fall on, political party's don't have any bearing on my decisions, they just happen to lean more toward one side. But my loyalty's are to the Lord. I don't get bogged down in all the rest of what is being 'said'.But world events...Oh, you bet. As was pointed out, we are to discern the times. I do hope we are keeping an eye on what is going on in Israel and the surrounding countries. It seems to me that this world is sitting on a powder keg that is just waiting to blow, and there is an awful lot of people who would love nothing more than to see us Christians, Jews and Americans dead. I believe persecution is coming, it's just a matter of time. I hope we are ready for it...

Bro. Mike, sorry about the caps ... I've got to figure out how to use "bold" when I post.((( Bro. Jeff said:I agree with this thought as long as one is only watching for the signs and protecting the sheep. The question is: are we looking for man to solve the world's problems or do we seek to discern how God is working?)))I watch the signs only to warn both the saved and the unsaved ... And yes, oh yes, to seek to discern how God is working, this is the most fascinating part of it all since we have an entire book that gives us the signs to look for before hand ... And as to looking for a man to solve the worlds problems ... Yes I look for that, but only in the since of percieving who the man of perdition is ... For it is foretold by the prophet's of old that the anti-christ will come to power by brokering peace into a world on the verge of unprecedented choas ... WWIII ... (((Bro. Mike said:But world events...Oh, you bet. As was pointed out, we are to discern the times. I do hope we are keeping an eye on what is going on in Israel and the surrounding countries. It seems to me that this world is sitting on a powder keg that is just waiting to blow, and there is an awful lot of people who would love nothing more than to see us Christians, Jews and Americans dead. I believe persecution is coming, it's just a matter of time. I hope we are ready for it... )))Amen ... I asked the question about president Bush and the war in Iraq for the reasons Bro. Mike stated above. The following is an excerpt from an essay I wrote, gleaned from a letter to Pres. Bush, shortly after 9/11:A SCENARIO FOR WWIII While ferverently praying concerning the horrors of 9/11/01 I heard the Lord our God say, "Is this you I hear O America. My wayward son, my second prodigal. You who have erred in My Christianity, the same as thine elder brother Israel in their worship of Me. Is this you I finally hear calling, God Bless Me, when you have turned your face from Me. Lip service you have offered upon My altar. Donning an outward vestige of My Godliness, but like white washed graves - inside you are full of decay. I thought I was dead to you, but in your time of travail you call? You have become an idolater, when I have told you that I am jealous, exacting exclusive devotion, and that you are to have no other gods before Me. Filthy mammon cannot save you from your reaping, nor your weapons of war. Only I can turn back the savage hand that strikes. Turn thine other cheek. Vengeance is mine, I shall repay" But how can we, as a nation, turn the other cheek to such horrific events as took place on Sept.11? Even I, a man of God privy to His plan, am soulishly, nationalistically, requiring a like payment in blood. But the larger question is what do we chance to ignite in our fit of self-righteous indignation, when we remain blinded to the fact that the real war is spiritual, invisible, and incapable of being seen thru the eyes of intellectualism and emotionalism? We have forgotten God, and replaced Him with our faith in our wealth, and in our own military might. And now the mighty find ourselves uncovered of His divine protection, and allowed to be chastised by a plague of deadly gnats. If we truly recognized this ghastly event as a clarion call to repentance, we as a nation could take this as an opportunity of global spiritual leadership, exemplifying Christ, and "forgiving (this time) those who have trespassed against us". So that if it were to ever happen again, there would be no hardship in forming a global coalition amongst the free world, against terrorism. But we won't do this, for we are still obscure to the fact that our hands are far from clean internationally, and that it is because of OUR national sin(s) that God has disciplined us so harshly. We as a nation now stand at the edge of the very self same precipice, that in the past we've so desperately pleaded the tiny state of Israel from which not to leap. And now we ourselves are about to make that jump, by massive retaliation for this unbearable wrong. I just pray that Pres. Bush, we American people, and our allies realize that once we're in free fall, there is no turning back! We Americans may soon choose to be the Satanic catalyst of the world crisis that will prepare the way of the AntiChrist. The third world conflict! For he is the man that comes to the fore with the perfect plan of peace that will quell this impending global destruction. At least for a time. -------I am on the wall watching with great anticipation!((( Bro. Mike you also said:Is President Bush a Christian? I believe so, not as in 'former' but presently. I don't think his faith is for show, don't have any reason to doubt his sincerity. Has anyone read the aforementioned book? Just curious. I do understand that he reads his bible everyday and prays. )))I believe him a Christian also ... And even though like all of us, he's prone to mistakes, even in the mistakes "all things work together for the good" ... God will get His glory out of it ... I've not read the book, but I watched an hour program with the author on C-Span's book channel, fascinating ...I think all of us have to be careful of how we judge one anothers outward Christianity, because God is a reader of the heart ... David was a murderer and an adulterer, in constant repentance, but yet he was concidered a man after God's own heart .... Why? ... Because in Acts, even though imperfect, God said that He could rely on him to do what He wanted ... My prayers are with our President, and that he will do what it is that God wants done, even if it's to bring the world to the brink of WWIII, that His kingdom come, that His will be done ... Amen

Brother Rahma,Thank you for the post and the reminder to "watch and pray". The Lord put that Scripture on my heart not too long ago. To watch the world and see what is happening, from God's perspective.God is using the war in Iraq to do what He is doing in America exposing evil for evil! The world in now seeing that the Muslim religion is a lie from hell. Even Muslims are starting to question their own religion. Praise God!God is exposing those who are using His name (in vain) and/or advancing the kingdom of darkness, whether they are professing Christians or pagans. The Roman Catholics have been exposed for not confronting homosexuality.A Baptist financial group in Arizona was caught defrauding its investors and has been destroyed.Radical homosexuals are being exposed for who they are as they try to usurp God's definition of marriage.Radical liberals are being exposed for their extreme tactics with the Pledge and the 10 Commandments.God is shining is holiness! Sin is being exposed and God is calling people accountable! The line has been drawn! It is time to choose your side! As far as the second half of the statement, "watch and pray", we are being called to stand in prayer according to Ephesians 6. We are standing both for and against. We are standing for the things of God and standing against the flesh, the world and Satan. It is interesting how President Bush is being attacked by both liberals (the world) and Christians. According to some of the posts on this site, it seems a few of you should be able to relate.Besides, do you pray for the president at much as you research and write about his faults? Do you read the Bible and pray more than you read political commentaries? Could you imagine if you life were in international media everyday? What if nearly every action and decision you made were broadcast for the world to see? How many people would call your salvation into question?(These questions are for the community in general, not a specific individual.)The fate of the nation lies in the hands of Christians and their response to God! Let us fix our eyes on Jesus!For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God. . .When the prophet Malachi spoke of the refiner's fire, who did God first refine? The Levites! The spiritual leaders of the day. Where are the spiritual leaders of our day? How are we praying for them?Henry Blackaby has just published a book entitled, "Holiness". It includes three of his most important sermons. First that the church has lost the fear of the Lord. Second, we no longer view sin from God's perspective. Third, about the need for our lives to be a highway of holiness.When the church is right with God, proper politics will fall into place. We are the light of the world and if the world continues to grow darker, we must look inwardly and ask ourselves, "Why?".God is using the war in Iraq to confront and expose evil. What evil in your life is God confronting? The message of Scripture is clear, Repent now, before it is exposed.HolinessGod bless,Matthew

Bro. Mike, sorry about the caps ... I've got to figure out how to use "bold" when I post.No problem, got your other message, but figured it best to reply here for others as well. You can do bold one of two ways. When typing out your post or reply just above the box is a series of small boxes preceding B (bold), I (Italicized), and U (underlined).Probably the best way to illustrate it would be for you to type in some text in the long box next to these and then check the B box, then 'add'. You will notice the 'tags' are now in place before and after the text, these are HTML tags and work by inserting the proper letter/letters between the [ ]. If you notice there is a list of 'allowed' HTML near the bottom.Note the placement and the use of the " / ". It is always the same formula: [ ] first, (text in the middle) and [/ ] last.If you use the 'add' button it will always put it where you leave off, so if you were to cut and paste from the middle of something you are typing, it will be placed at the bottom.Personally I have gotten use to just typing in the 'tags' as I go along. Practice with some text and use the 'preview' button to see what it will look like. The 'quote' button is also similar. Click on it, type in some text: The Lord is good!, click O.K. and note the tags'.It's all cut and paste, trial and error and a bit of practice, the 'preview' is a true blessing, I would have made quite a mess early on without it :-P One other little thought, when using the 'tags' take note of the spacing, you will see how they can be crowded against the other text...Hope that helps.

I have doubts about his methodologybut I do not doubt his sincerity.I applaud his stance on marriage's sanctitybut the mess in Iraq might make him lose his sanity.I appreciate his consistency and integritybut I have questions about confusing Christianity with American identityCheers, Sam

Rahman wrote: But how can we, as a nation, turn the other cheek to such horrific events as took place on Sept.11? Even I, a man of God privy to His plan, am soulishly, nationalistically, requiring a like payment in blood.Brother Rahman, it is not my intention to attack you. I am merely using this statement to pose a question. As a believer grows in the Lord, can nationalism remain?In ChristJeff

Conversely, can a person mature as a Christian and not increase his sense of patriotism?Here are two resources from the Vision Forum on this subject:Patriots vs. ToriesChristians vs. Diests

Bro. Jeff you wrote:((( Brother Rahman, it is not my intention to attack you. I am merely using this statement to pose a question. As a believer grows in the Lord, can nationalism remain? )))No my brother I don't take your question as an attack, but a valid query ... One that I asked myself after the Oklahoma bombing, and over and over again after 9/11 ... And one that has made me consciously list my priorities ... I'm a Christian first ... An American second ... then my ethnic group.To be totally honest I really wasn't aware that I was as nationalistic as my reactions to these two incidents ... On the Oklahoma bombing I thought it was outside terrorism and had thoughts of turning into a sea of glass whomever was responsible, then the gut wrenching discovery that it was one of our own ... But by the time of 9/11 our Lord was dealing with me in a totally different manner, and I saw 9/11 as His judgement, and that's where my nationality had to take backseat to my Christianity ... That's why the next sentence is:"But the larger question is what do we chance to ignite in our fit of self-righteous indignation, when we remain blinded to the fact that the real war is spiritual, invisible, and incapable of being seen thru the eyes of intellectualism and emotionalism? We have forgotten God, and replaced Him with our faith in our wealth, and in our own military might". Nationalism can only be self righteous indignation if that nation is out of the will of God.What you quoted was initially in the context of a letter to Pres. Bush addressing the fact that as a fellow American I too understood his emotional, humanistic desire for revenge ... But that we as Christians must sacrifice that to the tail end of the "word" I heard from the Lord ... namely,: "Filthy mammon cannot save you from your reaping, nor your weapons of war. Only I can turn back the savage hand that strikes. Turn thine other cheek. Vengeance is mine, I shall repay"That is why I initially posted the question: What do you think about Pres. Bush and this War in Iraq ... I believe that Pres. Bush is a believer, but I think that he let his emotionalism, and his nationalism preceed his Christianity ... And that's why I also said God already knew that he'd do this ... This mistake would not have been allowed to happen if our Lord did not have a use for it ... I believe that use is impending judgment.Jews under Jehovah, whether in the right or in the wrong we're very nationalistic ... When they were in the right they won as a nation, when they were wrong they lost as a nation ... We're in the wrong ... So yes, even as a believer I think nationalism can remain ... So while I'm a Christian first and foremost, I'd be lying if I said I didn't love America ... It's my earthly home ... It's why I weep and pray over her, as Jeremiah and Jesus did over the nation they loved.

Matthew 2323 wrote:Conversely, can a person mature as a Christian and not increase his sense of patriotism?What is the definition of patriotism? Is is not very simply pride for one's own country? What is one of the core teachings of Jesus in regard to pride? Does not pride cause one to stumble?In ChristJeff

Matthew2323 ... Praise God that He is using all of us as reminders to one another ... I totally agree with what you posted in regards our President, we the Church, and our need to keep our eyes on Christ, in HOLINESS! ... The latter is the key to why our country is in the mess we find ourselves in ... A majority unholy, unsanctified, unsalty, luke warm Church, more afraid of living holy than sinful. And Bro. Jeff your post has made me think even harder about my nationalism, and I can without a doubt tell you that if I had to choose between my spiritually far country and my natural country of America, I won't become a pillar of salt in the choice ... '0) ... Amen. And lastly "patriot" and "patriotism" is defined in Webter as "love" for ones country, not pride ... although I'm sure many Americans have the definition twisted ...I don't mean any of what I'm posting is in a spirit of harshness, or rudeness ... I am enjoying the dialogue!In His love,R

First I will humbly and apologeticaly say that I used to be a very strong right wing conservative republican--when i was a lukewarm christian. I listened to talk radio and supported many political things. (since then, hearing about rush limbaugh being addicted to all those medications was no surprise to me- many in this camp say one thing but do not live it) Things have defintiely changed since I decided to surrender my whole entire life to Christ, pick up my cross and follow Him. My allegiance used to be to many things -with Christ thrown in there too. Now it is Christ alone.What I see is that, especially since 9-11, that American Patriotism has become a religion. I see so many, many people who are boasting and proud to say the pledge of Allegiance or quote something about how they believe in God and country. And they think this makes them a christian.Patriotism and Christianity are not the same. I am appalled that they are even considered to be similar. I know many "christians -in- name-only" who are blind to the fact that God is not just the God of America. Jesus is not American. The American dream did not come out of the bible.I am ashamed of America and it's idolatrous and adultrous ways. I am ashamed of our pride- in thinking we are the BEST and greatest thing to ever happen to this world. Pride comes before destruction. We are consumed with wealth and material posessions. I don't see much humility in America. I don't see much "carrying our cross" in America.Yes, we have a duty to rend to Ceasar- what is his- but our citizenship is not of this world. We are to be aliens in this world.The deception of all of this is what concerns me. I hear so many comments from people who believe they are christians because they are right wing conservatives. They believe in the 10 commandments and keeping God in the pledge of Allegiance. No one is telling them any different.Patriotism will not save you. Fighting for certain rights will not save you- giving up your rights may save you. Because giving up our rights and giving up anything Christ asks us to lay down and picking up our cross to follow Him is our only hope.We don't need help from experts or politicians- this is not the kind of help we as a dying sleeping church in America needs. We need to hear the word of God. We need to listen to Him- not talk radio or politicians or experts. We cannot serve God and man.In reading Ezekiel (and many on this forum are aware of the similarites of God's people (Judah) and God's people in North America. Things are not getting better. Just like Judah- we are a people who are supposed to be His but we are so full of idolatry and adultery. We are also a people who claim Him with our lips (and our patriotic songs) but we deny Him by our actions.I know with every thing in me that God is grieved at America and compares it as worse than Sodom and her sisters. If it is true that a real Christian was leading our country- how can it be that the church in America is falling deeply faster into deception and apostacy and believing a "false gospel". A happiness, everyone-is-included gospel. When our "christian" leaders talk about God - why do they not mention JESUS? All of these christian things they do- prayer meetings ect- this is no different then the regular lukewarm sleeping churchs all over America. If we come on here to explain what it really means to be a christian and say that many of the christians today really actually have not surrendered their entire lives to Christ- we come on here to explain how coming to Christ (as explained in Ten Shekels) is about His glory alone and not for what we can get out of Him- that we are supposed to love Him, serve Him and obey Him just because He is worthy-- why do we make exceptions for christian leaders? Just because they are not preachers- neither am I or the next girl or guy- but the Lord still has His standards. He does not make exceptions for certain individuals.Patriotism itself has become an idol, I'm afraid. I see it everywhere. All of these other things cause people to lose focus on Christ alone. Again, I pray that the Lord's will will be done and I know it will. Someday soon we will see His preeminence over all things, while the rest of this folly falls away.ok, i guess i'll stop now. :-)

Well, it's hard to argue with that logic.Thanks Chanin for giving our noggins a fine tuning and something to think about...

I have been sitting on and praying over this post all day. I know I am a bit hmmmm, zealous, a bit RADICAL for Jesus. hee hee I am not ashamed of this! Just as He is jealous over me and you, I am fiercly jealous over Him. I don't like anyone or anything get the glory that He alone deserves.May He reign gloriously forever and ever! May we all be radically sold out for Him alone!in Him, chanin

Chanin,I agree with part of what you're saying. I do think our sin, pride, and careless wealth stinks in the sight of God. Without getting into my many objections to what you're saying, let me ask, as a Christian, who will you vote for in Nov.? I don't think it's our prerogative to sit by and just let the world go by. As Christians, I think we're obligated to make the best of the situations put before us even in politics. Sitting the fence is not an option. So, Bush or Kerry? Can a Christian vote for John Kerry with the stances he takes on abortion, homosexual rights, and euthanasia?I may not agree with every one of Bush's decisions, but I believe he is much better than the alternative.And Yes, not to be argumentative, though, I am thankful to be an American. I believe it's our God-given duty and privelege to love our land and people and to continually hold our nation before God. As Americans, I think we neglect our duties to the Lord if in our own homeland we don't find a commitment to love and pray for our country. Can we really carry a burden for our country if we don't love it? Would God be pleased with us if we leave off our position as citizens and don't pray? It reminds me of Paul's nationalism when he said that he could wish himself accursed for his kinsmen according to the flesh... Rom. 9:1-5Kendal

I'm sorry to be so ignorant, but what is the right-wing label about? Is right wing the Christian morals? Republican?

Hmmm neither.. ohh yea im Canadian that's why well you never know 'Canada could be the next american state!'I think Mr Blair may be ahead of you in the queue. ;-)

Kendal you said:((( As Christians, I think we're obligated to make the best of the situations put before us even in politics. Sitting the fence is not an option.So, Bush or Kerry?Can a Christian vote for John Kerry with the stances he takes on abortion, homosexual rights, and euthanasia?I may not agree with every one of Bush's decisions, but I believe he is much better than the alternative. )))Now see, these are the same questions I ask myself ... As Christians are we supposed to sit idly by and watch our country go to hell in a hand basket? ... Didn't Christ say to obey the laws of the land, as long as they don't over rule His own? ... We all know that voting for the most part is a choice between the lesser of two evils, but shouldn't we as Christians be a part of making the better choice ... In fact shouldn't we as Christians be mobilized as the mega voting block that we are, and use the laws of the land to promote Christian candidates and ideals? ... It was the mobilization of the Christian right that greatly aided Pres. Reagan to office ... It was the mobilization, curried by now Pres. G.W. Bush, that was totally responsible for getting his dad elected ... And it was the Christian right that was greatly responsible for our current Presidents election (although many say he stole it) ... Sure Jesus has given us the commision to proclaim His gospel, but I personally believe that every Christian in a land that grants them a right to vote, should do so ... We all know the Revelation is gonna happen, but we can be resisters to apocalypse both spiritually and politically ... There were a few old testament saints whose presence even in totally heathen governments benefited those governments/societys greatly ... We are the salt, and light of the earth!I was born in the still conservative 1950's, so I was age 10-19 during the free wheeling, rule breaking 60's ... I remember that heathen devil atheist Madelaine Murry O'Hare, I remember when the pledge of allegiance and prayer was eradicated from public schools, and I remember my seperatist Jehovah Witness parents predicting the beginning of doom for America, but I don't remember any major organized Christian outcry about it ... Perhaps it was because so many took the stance of Christ's kingdom being no part of this world, or perhaps many were too busy being wrapped up in their own little insular lives to SEE the evil approaching, or perhaps many were afraid to organize and get involved against the seperation of church and state, but whichever the reason evil triumphed big time!There was no major counteractive Christian outcry until the late 70's into the 80's when Jerry Falwell founded The Moral Majority, of which I was a part and member, the beginning of what's now known as The Christian Right, mind you that the Left hates so much ... That orginization was started because in just 10 -15 years the moral/ethical decline in America was drastic, and I remember thinking at age 30 how/why did the Christian's back then allow satan to get such a stronghold in our society? ... Why didn't they rise up in holy anger? ... But alas, by the time Brother Falwell made his move satan was already entrenched in America ... Thus today.I believe in being a participant in the society, nation God has placed me in from the voting in of public officials to the boycotting against the Porn shop that wants to set up it's vile business in my township.So Kendal for me it's Bush all the way, and not because I'm a Republican for I'm an Independent, but for all the reasons you mentioned ... I'll not stand by on my watch as mature Christians did in the 60's and allow satan to drag us down one more inch without a fight both spiritually and politically ... I know that Christ is our highest allegience (God), (and) then there's allegience to (country) according to:Rom.13 [1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. [6] For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing ... Amen

Rocklife wrote:I'm sorry to be so ignorant, but what is the right-wing label about? Is right wing the Christian morals? Republican?The Republican Party would not have enough people to vote them into office were it not for a "Astro Turf roots political movements." Seed money for the formation of the Moral Majority in the late 70's and the Christian Coalition of the early 90's did not come from people like you and I. It came from money's spent by the Republican Party. The values of those who run the Republican Party are primarily concerned with power and money. So few American's share the same ideals of these elite. The elite know they could never win an election by promoting their values. So they must build coalitions which will give them the votes. So they give lip service to fool many people who profess to be Christian.Everyone knows how many times the words, "weapons of mass destruction," were brainwashed into our minds. The events of 911 were a tradgedy no doubt. Three thousand lives were lost and billions upon billions of dollars disapeared with a wink of an eye. Yet what about the million children that were murdered that year. Did this administration attempt to brain wash the public on this issue? In ChristJeff

Jeff, I think I know what you are touching on here.I think that this end time govt. system will end up seperating the wheat from the tares. Scary! So much deception- only a few will catch on.in him, chanin

This two sites will help answer some of your questions:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_righthttp://www.cc.org/ - Christian Coalition

Thank you for the clarification about love vs. pride in regards to nationalism.To me, a patriot is one who loves his country because he sees it as a gift from God. When I say I love America, I mean that looking back at our history, we can all see the hand of Providence and that is something to cherish.To love my country in to love the people and ideals upon which it was founded, godly men and women seeking the freedom to worship God in a land where there was no tyranny and (at the time) a small influence of evil.The fact that God has blessed this country so much means a great deal to me. The freedom I enjoy today cost many people their lives (and freedom).To pray for revival in America is an act of patriotism. I see it as obedience to both the first and second great commandments. I long to see God glorified and worshiped in spirit and in truth in a land that he has blessed (and been patient with) for so long; so I pray for revival. I care about the spiritual (and physical) well being of my fellow countrymen; so I pray for revival.To love one's country is not having a double mind or a divided heart, as long as the love of God is first!I am devoted to my wife, our children, our local church and the brothers I fellowship with. Obeying the second great commandment is a fruit of obeying the first great commandment. (And yes, these loves can become idolatry if loved in the incorrect order.) If the pagan and the backslidden commit idolatry with their patriotism, pray for them! (This is probably the least of their problems, however.)America is a country whose government was founded on Biblical principles. Our founders were influenced by the writings of Augustine, John Calvin, John Knox and other godly men who sought to pattern human government from a biblical worldview.The exegetical writings of the Reformers show that there is biblical justification for declaring war against tyrants. Please read the sermon, Defensive War in a Just Cause Sinless preached in 1775. (You will have to download a pdf.)Defensive WarThe government's role is to protect the Church (physically). Our role is to protect the government with prayer (and service as needed).To turn the other cheek is not applicable. That was a personal insult, not a physical threat to their person, family or nation. The Bible clearly instructs men that it is their duty to protect (physically) these three entities.Do you think terrorists respond to reason? No! We are facing modern-day Hamans who demonically desire to destroy our nation. We need to let the proper channels fight the physical war while we Christians join the ancient Mordecai in supplication to the Sovereign Lord to intercede for our nation.For such a time as this. . .Is the threat of the terrorists any less real than the threat of Haman? If not, will you respond like Moses, Daniel, Jeremiah, Paul and Jesus and intercede for our land? Please prayerfully consider how you should respond.God bless,MatthewPS Rahman you are correct. Christians must vote for those whose policies align closest with the Bible. It is a holy duty to vote in accordance with the Word. We will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. What (if anything) will be on your ballot when God holds it in front of you and calls you to account for your voting history?

Rookie, maybe I'm misunderstanding your stream of thought. Are you saying that we shouldn't vote Republican in the presidential race because the party's elite are corrupt? I'm not trying to disagree with you about corruption in politics, just trying to make sure that is the point your are trying to make. I agree politics under whatever name (Rep, Dem, or Ind.) is probably tainted. My thoughts are that we as Christians have an obligation to choose the best choice put before us. As Rahman and Matthew2323 stated, what is most closely aligned with the Bible we should try to support. Even if the Republican party has alterior motives, surely their voting record in the House and Senate is twice as moral as the other half?It would be hard to justify not voting for a man (Bush) that is against abortion and homosexual marriage because we think he is corrupted by money and then vote for a man (Kerry) that is openly for abortion and homosexual marriage.Well, thankfully politics won't be a part of Christ's soon coming kingdom. Kendal

I was read something from Charles Finney concerning Christians and politics. If my memory is correct I think he indicated that they really don't mix well and that a Christian is not part of any party for he/she belongs to Christ. On the other hand he seemed to recognize that there was some part that we play.I for one am so far removed from politics. It really has no appeal to me and I am honestly very discusted with it in general. I am not sure about Bush because I have heard so many wishy washy comments from him and even comments that clearly did not stand for Christ as the only way. I do believe God has put him where he is for this time and perhaps when he is out of office and politics he will be less tempted to compromise and God can finish what He has begun in him.Keep seeking Him who is above.MikeHere is an excerpt from what I found from Finney."The church must take a right stand in regard to politics. Do not suppose that I am going to preach a political sermon, or that I wish to have you join in getting up a Christian party in politics. No, you must not believe that. But the time has come that Christians must vote for honest men, and take consistent ground in politics...God cannot sustain this free and blessed country, which we love and pray for, unless the Church will take right ground. Politics are a part of a religion in such a country as this, and Christians must do their duty to the country as a part of their duty to God. It seems sometimes as if the foundations of the nation are becoming rotten, and Christians seem to act as if they think God does not see what they do in politics. But I tell you He does see it, and He will bless or curse this nation, according to the course they take." "In popular or elective governments, every man having a right to vote, every human being who has moral influence, is bound to exert that influence in the promotion of virtue and happiness. And as human governments are plainly indispensable to the highest good of man, they are bound to exert their influence to secure a legislation that is in accordance with the law of God." "It is said that Christians should leave human governments to the management of the ungodly, and not be diverted from the work of saving souls, to intermeddle with human governments." "To uphold and assist good government is not being diverted from the work of saving souls. The promotion of public and private order and happiness is one of the indispensable means of doing good and saving souls. It is nonsense to admit that Christians are under an obligation to obey human government, and still have nothing to do with the choice of those who shall govern." "It is asserted that Christians have something else to do besides meddling with politics." "In a popular government, politics are an important part of religion. No man can possibly be benevolent or religious, to the full extent of his obligations, without concerning himself, to a greater or less extent, with the affairs of human government. It is true, that Christians have something else to do than to go with a party to do evil, or to meddle with politics in a selfish or ungodly manner. But they are bound to meddle with politics in popular governments, because they are bound to seek the universal good of all men; and this one department of human interests, materially affecting all their higher interests." Charles Finney

Huey Long was a governor of Louisiana back in the 30's. He was assasinated during his run for the presidency. He had a famous saying, "The only difference between a Democrat and a Republican is this, one starts skinning you from the head down, the other starts at your feet and works up." I find very little difference between the two. One party outwardly states that they are against God's laws. The other party only gives God's laws lip service. Both are guilty of the same disobedience. I believe Bush stated that he is against gay marriage, but he is also okay with gay civil unions. Please correct me if I have mistated his position. "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland and truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is a heavenly country. Hebrews 11:13-16All of those who were acknowledged by God as living by faith lost interest in the earthly country. They were always able to return to the earthly things, yet we see that by faith their desires were transformed into desiring a heavenly country. I cannot tell any one who they should vote for. I don't believe God needs us to vote. I do believe that God needs us to be vessels prepared for good works. He uses men to proclaim the Gospel. He works in men so that they can glorify Him in love and truth. In terms of voting, a corporation out of Texas was contracted by Florida to review their lists of registered voters prior to the last presidential election. This computer firm threw out over 50000 voters who were primarily black and poor. They were screened out because they had names which resembled convicted felons. Now we know that Bush won by less than 2000 votes. We also now that the southern black population votes predominately democratic. So my question to those who do not like what I have said, Did God need that corporation to do His work? In ChristJeff

Matthew 2323 wrote:America is a country whose government was founded on Biblical principles. I agree with you. Our form of government was established into 3 seperate groups, the legislature, the president, and the supreme court. The men who knew the doctrine of man's total depravity sought to mitigate the evilness of man when they created this government. In terms of the dream Daniel explained to Nebuchadnezzar, I believe we can see that over time man's government would continue to grow more defiled as time went on. The form of man's governments would continue to be more beastly. Please read Daniel 2 In ChristJeff

A quote from this article:A secular constitution wit no mention of religion or ideology with local autonomy, free and fair elections, a stable and democratic governmentJust a thought, would the founding fathers, the Puritans, have agreed with this man?In ChristJeff

I do not know how God is working in the current situation other than to know that man or satan will not prevent His word. I do not want to be argumentative, however many times my flesh surfaces. What I endeavor to do is to evaluate every thought held by men. All thoughts must be put through the sieve of Holy Scripture. So let us contend for the faith which will bring us together in Christ.In ChristJeff

Jeff posted:I do not want to be argumentative, however many times my flesh surfaces.What I endeavor to do is to evaluate every thought held by men. All thoughts must be put through the sieve of Holy Scripture. So let us contend for the faith which will bring us together in Christ.Amen to this Brother Jeff, and Lord Jesus forgive me/us if i've/we've offended one another in anyway ... Amen. All of us have to contend with our old man/nature from time to time, but thank God for our Jesus! ... And though many of us have different opinions and doctrines in our faith we can all agree on these ... That "Jesus is the (only) way, the (only) truth and the (only) life, and no one can get to the Father except by Him" ... And "that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature (including each other), shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" .So it don't matter if one Christian votes and the other one doesn't ... It doesnt matter if folk in political or clergical office are just plain carnal, or marginal, moderate or full blown, dyed in the wool Christian ... It doesn't even matter about mans injustices to man, or the fact that the real battle is spiritual and just played out in the natural ... Our Lord soveriegnly or permissively controls it all via His will, and nothing is going to stop God's truth, church and kingdom from marching on!Eph, 4:13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: ... Care and keep us Lord Jesus, and use, motivate and employ whomever and whatever it takes on this earth to bring your will to pass, as it already is in heaven ... For you alone are our awesome God, worthy to be praised, adored and worshipped ... Our strength, our strong tower and city of refuge, of whom shall we fear ... We your children all love you Lord, and may we increasing show this by our actions not only toward You, and the carrying out of your commision, but also by increased love towards one another, regardless of denomination, race, culture or creed, and even more, caring, compassionate, and empathetic love toward the lost ... May we show them your love Master ... In your most precious name we pray King Jesus ... Amen

This may be of some interest here.In his own words:Bush Calls for 'Culture Change'In interview, President says new era of responsibility should replace 'feel-good.'

moreofHim wrote: The deeper i grow in Christ- the less I care one iota about the politics, etc... of this world- this earthly kingdom. What you write after this statement seemingly contradicts this claim.moreofHim wrote:Also, we are a country full of lukewarmness and compromise- why not have a president who fits this mold also. What evidence do you have that George W. Bush is is full of lukewarmness and compromise?moreofHim wrote:While many in this country gloat over the fact that 'our president is a Christian'- they are having the time of their lives in lukewarm heaven. Lead by example- hmmmmm. Isn't "gloat" a loaded word, being used for thought control of the reader. You could just as easily wrote that many Christians are glad over the fact that 'our President is a Christian'. Persoanally I am glad to have a President who is strong on Biblical principles, publically declares his faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour, who supports faith based initiatives, school vouchers, pro-life, and the biblical family unit; and who prays diligently to God for wisdom, help and guidance, and seeks Christians to pray also for the same. And I am certainly not having the time of my life, I perceive that the powers that be exert great influence through the 'systems of things' controlled by them on this earth are very anti-Christian, opposing our Christian president as well as Christians every where. So who do you think are the more lukewarm: those Christians that voted for GWB, or those Christians who voted for Bill Clinton and Al Gore?moreofHim wrote:I am so tired of this right wing conservative christianity in America- it has become one-in the same. How tired are you of left wing liberal christianity in America?For that matter, just how tired are you of all left wing liberals in America? moreofHim wrote:... Our country- with a president like this- is content to sleep with a "christian' president at the wheel. I am wondering if it would be more beneficial for the kingdom of God for us to have a morally corrupt president because at least it keeps the christians on their toes. Please explain how having a morally corrupt president such as Bill Clinton kept Christians on their toes while GWB puts them to sleep?Chanin, you may have good answers to these questions, I can only await your response. But your post is full of unsubstantiated, declarative statements. It would be helpful if you substantiated your comments so that they can be examined as to whether or not they are justified and logical. I know this is how you feel, but, from what you wrote, I do not understand why.Sincerely,ArtB

KingJimmy wrote:While president Bush might have genuienly become a Christian sometime in the past, and was truly born again, I personally doubt he is currently living his life under the lordship of Jesus Christ. Although I will not say this about every political leader, it is difficult for me to imagine that a person who occupies such a high office in the world is a Christian. Clearly George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Herbert Hoover, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, and Gearge W Bush, to name a few such Presidents, are Christians. Your assumption that obtaining such office nullifies one's Christianity is unjustifiable. KingJimmy wrote:Obtaining such an office did not come without much political manipulation, exalting of the self, putting others down "unashamedly" as if they were but mere dogs. ... Nor does staying in such an office not come without the same political manipulation, exlating the self, and putting others down. I know of specifics where such charges apply to Bill Clinton, but not of George W. Bush. Perhaps you can supply the specific incidences of George W. Bush "putting others down "unashamedly" as if they were but mere dogs." Informing voters of one's qualifications to be President is not "exalting of self" and informing the same of their opponent's disqualifications to be President can not be simply labelled as "putting others down." One must demonstrate deceitfulness and outright deliberate lying on the part of the candidate. Political manipulation is a wise and good tool in the hands of the righteous, e.g. King David used it often to bring about positive effects. But like any tool, it can be misused. What negative manipulation is GWB guilty of?

rookie wrote:I find very little difference between the two. One party outwardly states that they are against God's laws. The other party only gives God's laws lip service. Both are guilty of the same disobedience. I believe Bush stated that he is against gay marriage, but he is also okay with gay civil unions. Please correct me if I have mistated his position.GWB and most Republicans are fighting for the sanctity of the Marriage union to be strictly between a man and a woman. Liberal Democrats, supported very strongly by the Liberal media (e.g. USA Today, Gannet newspapers, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS) have been very pro- gay marriage.)GWB is not endorsing homosexual unions when he speaks of civil unions, he is arguing against the gay lobbies arguments for legalizing marriage between gays. Please note that Civil Unions are currently legal and they are not at all similar to marital unions. A Civil Union is a legal contract between individuals regarding distribution of material possesions in the event of death and seperation. When I had my own business, I entered in to such civil union with my partner that identified our roles in our business and mandated an equitable distribution of corporate wealth in event of one partners death. Gays have claimed that they need marital status to legally pass on their material possesions (wealth) to their surviving gay partner. However this could easily be accomplished by a civil contract between the two. rookie wrote: I don't believe God needs us to vote. I do believe that God needs us to be vessels prepared for good works. He uses men to proclaim the Gospel. He works in men so that they can glorify Him in love and truth. In a dictatorship such as the former Soviet Union or in Saddam Hussein's Iraq this would be true. However, in the USA, our type of government allows us to be involved in the politcal process and to make a legitimate choice to elect those who govern us and to choose candidates that genuinely reflect our views. As such I see Christians not voting as a dereliction of our duty to God. Part of our 'good works' is to raise up and elect candidates that most closely represent our Biblical worldview, that Godly men may govern our nation.

Do you think there needs to be a greater sense of urgency for the federal marriage amendment?People have got to understand that the definition of marriage is being changed act by act. And the reason I thought a constitutional amendment was the right avenue on this issue it's because it would prevent the definition—it would reaffirm the current definition of marriage and prevent it from being changed decision by decision or act by act.George BushBush Calls for 'Culture Change'

Hey ArtB,I'm glad someone else thought it was sad that on a Christian forum that we were bashing our own president. I thank God for a man (George Bush) with ethics, dedicated to his family, that proclaims Christ, and loves our nation. He may have faults, but let's uphold him in prayer and in conversation, lest we allow the alternative to take office next January. :cry: Kendal