Does God Want Everyone to Be Saved?

Does God want everyone on earth to be saved?

HomeFree89 wrote:
Does God want everyone on earth to be saved?

yes

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Agree with hmmhmm. Peter makes it clear.

HomeFree89 wrote:
Does God want everyone on earth to be saved?

I think one of the best ways to answer and understand this question-is to scripturally see exactly who it is that Christ died for-since that is the very means of salvation.

This is who Christ died for:
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life FOR THE SHEEP.

John 15:13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his FRIENDS. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you

Jesus himself says he laid down his life for the sheep and his friends-well, where does that put the rest of the world-which are goats, and not his friends?

Pro 8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Pro 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

I like the NLT version of this passage

Pro 8:32 "And so, my children, listen to me, for happy are all who follow my ways.
Pro 8:33 Listen to my counsel and be wise. Don't ignore it.
Pro 8:34 "Happy are those who listen to me, watching for me daily at my gates, waiting for me outside my home!
Pro 8:35 For [b]whoever[/b] finds me finds life and wins approval from the LORD.
Pro 8:36 But those who miss me have injured themselves. All who hate me love death."

hmmhmm wrote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Does God want everyone on earth to be saved?

yes

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Well, wasn't Judas Iscariot a man? Yet he was lost
(John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas Iscariot); that the scripture might be fulfilled

Is not the anti-christ and false prophet literal human beings-men-and yet the have NO hope of Salvation.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to US-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter, a disciple of the Lord, part of his bride says "...to US-ward"-well who is the " US"-that he is referring to-it is certainly not the WHOLE world which hated Christ, but rather the "US" that Peter was indeed a part of-the Church-God ONLY purchased the CHURCH with his own Blood-not the rest of the world.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Again, Christ only laid down his life FOR his Friends the Sheep Chosen in Him FROM the foundation of the World-given to him by the Father-and that NONE of THEM be lost!

you can make those verses mean whatever you want to, I take it for what it says. it says all and for me it means all. Your tholaogain may disagree but the word says right there in those verses ALL. Many have a hard time accepting that...but the word that is used is ALL. Not some, not all except Judas. it says ALL. And i am one of those who belive God means what he says. And the word he uses in scripture is ALL.

the word [b]all[/b]

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

also this verse is ignored by many

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I thank God for that, whosoever.....

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If [b]any man will[/b] come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

if any man will....

the word [b]will[/b] here

G2309
θέλω, ἐθέλω
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).

1Tim 2:4 Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Well, wasn't Judas Iscariot a man? Yet he was lost
(John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas Iscariot); that the scripture might be fulfilled

So explain this?

BlazedbyGod wrote:
1Tim 2:4 Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Well, wasn't Judas Iscariot a man? Yet he was lost
(John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas Iscariot); that the scripture might be fulfilled

So explain this?

I think Judas chose to exercise his free will. :-)

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
God desires all to be saved, but he knows not all will be.
Blessings Greg :-o

I believe Judas choose money over Jesus. And I belive God wanted Judas to choose him instead, but he knew he wouldent. How do I know he did not want Judas to go to hell?

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I know, I know....that was spoken to israel...... but it shows Gods character to me.

How about this verse from Joshua 24?

"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Jordan

Dear Saints
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

if we consider to whom the letters/accounts which make up the N.T. and O.T. were written to and for, we find out that it is for those who are the Called of God, that is those chosen from before the setting of the foundations of the world. AMEN. See Romans 9 and John 6. God wants all to be Saved, all those that He has called and those will be. in John 6 we learn that unless God moves and quickens us, we don't know we need Salvation to even make a decision for Him. the bottom line is that the Decision was made at some point in eternity when Christ was slain, see Rev 13:8. So the Decision on who gets saved is God's own which we respond to by Grace which He gives us. Essentially saints, our Salvation rests on God ENTIRELY. if we were free to choose completely, there would have been no need for Christ to die. also the bible tells us that God Loved us FIRST so it rests on Him.yet we have free will and it is within the confines of the Sovereign will of God...that'll fry your brain...

Judas was bound to his fate, he didn't reject Jesus because of any other reason than God rejected him first and appointed him for the task of betrayer. Some may say "that ain't fair" hey man to me if you have made all things, you can do whatever you want with no explanation to me...it's God's Prerogative. The reason that bothers us so much is because we're infected with the same malady that Lucifer was, pride...and pride always says " i can do better than God can..." and instead of doing what we're told, we do something else. in fact dear saints, who are we to ask God what is fair? whose standard are we using? we often measure the attributes of God against our own in comparison and make God come up short...that's of the devil...that's the same thing he did when he said he'd put his throne above the stars of God upon the mount of congregation...he'd lost his marbles and in many respects we follow the same model...God help us measure ourselves by your standard and not the other way round.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Judas was bound to his fate, he didn't reject Jesus because of any other reason than God rejected him first and appointed him for the task of betrayer.

The Lord said it would have "been better if that man had never been born", and yet God allowed Judas to be born. To follow your logic coupled with Jesus' statement, God did something that was "less than better". In light of this, I'm not sure I can accept your hypothesis at face value. Making an absolute statement through a dark glass is pretty risky. Much better to simply state, "I really don't know."

"I don't know" - I believe God honors these three words more than a million dissertations in conjectural theology. When we get brutally honest with ourselves, when we trim away all the fat, blow all the sugar off, and reduce all our acquired knowledge and pet convictions and theological interpretations down to the least common denominator, we suddenly find that we really don't know anything when it comes to stuff like this.

I used to fear those three words. Now, I relish saying them, because I know how much it pleases God to hear them, and how through them He is able to bring peace, and, amazingly enough, enlightenment and wisdom to areas we can actually employ for His glory.

Brother Paul

BlazedbyGod wrote:
1Tim 2:4 Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Well, wasn't Judas Iscariot a man? Yet he was lost
(John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas Iscariot); that the scripture might be fulfilled

So explain this?

[b]Act 17:30[/b] [color=990000]Indeed, then, condoning the times of ignorance, God is now commanding that all mankind everywhere are to repent[/color]
God does not double talk, He does not say, "I command that all mankind to repent, but I will not give all men the ability".

bro Paul

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

The Lord said it would have "been better if that man had never been born", and yet God allowed Judas to be born. To follow your logic coupled with Jesus' statement, God did something that was "less than better". In light of this, I'm not sure I can accept your hypothesis at face value. Making an absolute statement through a dark glass is pretty risky. Much better to simply state, "I really don't know."

if i didn't know i would have said so but to me, the word is very plain and God has given Grace that i may understand this. that Jesus said that it would have been better for that man (not God by the way) not to have been born has more to do with the severity of the punishment which would befall Judas, perdition. Had God chosen any other man for the task, the same would have been said because the result would have been the same. it has to do with the gravity of what Judas did and the consequence of it, and indeed it would have been better if Judas had never been born for that reason. so does that mean God did a less than Perfect thing or that there was nothing better He could have done? Of course not my dear brother for the word sais this concerning Judas:

John 17:

[b][color=0000FF]11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.[/color][/b]

the last line is the key. "that the scripture might be fulfilled" isn't that a statement of the very best of God, not that there is anything less than best, but we must understand that in every situation God does what is best, not what we think is good. of Judas it is said also:

Matthew 26:

[b][color=0000FF]24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.[/color][/b]

this is the KJV which says it had been good, but God saw it best for him to be born so that the scripture may be fulfilled. it had been good for that man had he not been born but what would that have meant for the plan of God? the scripture would not have been fulfilled. i hope that makes some sense bro.

"I don't know" - I believe God honors these three words more than a million dissertations in conjectural theology. When we get brutally honest with ourselves, when we trim away all the fat, blow all the sugar off, and reduce all our acquired knowledge and pet convictions and theological interpretations down to the least common denominator, we suddenly find that we really don't know anything when it comes to stuff like this.

indeed God does honour it when we admit we don't know, for He then does fill us up with knowledge concerning what we don't know. however when one does Know as God has given knowledge, one becomes liable and responsible for passing that on for those who are looking. and you're right if we cut away what we know and have acquired by ourselves, we have nothing, but if GOd has poured into you then you have IT. Paul understood Predestination and Free will, yet it still fries brains today. the Truth is the word is simple, perhaps too simple for our liking, we seem to like more sophisticated things.

to me it is very plain, Judas was appointed to that task that the scripture would be fulfilled which is something infinitely better than if Judas had not been born, in fact that is what was best because it furthered the Purpose of God in bringing Salvation to the world.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

bro Blazed by God
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you quoted from John 17 as though there was some conflict in God as to all men being saved, there is none and so whatever such things we see in the word are our own misconceptions and not God's. The key in understanding what the deal with Judas was is in the very last line of the scripture you quoted, "that the scripture may be fulfilled" God's not about to do anything in violation of what He has decreed in His word because everything is held up by His word. Judas' role had to do with the fulfilment of scripture and since God wrote it, He would bring it to pass.

we must also consider that the words of scripture are written to and for the called of God from the setting of the foundations of the world.

think about the Gravity of this statement "that the scripture may be fulfilled"

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN

[b]God has given Grace that i may understand[/b] this. that Jesus said that it would have been better for that man (not God by the way) not to have been born has more to do with the severity of the punishment which would befall Judas, perdition. Had God chosen any other man

God personally told you that He chose Judas from the foundation of the world to suffer a fate worse [i]in severity[/i] than if God had never birthed him? Was this knowledge given to you in a dream or vision? Please don't say the Word of God is abundantly clear on this, or you do a disservice to greater men than yourself who have wrestled this issue for centuries and centuries with unresolve.

however [b]when one does Know as God has given knowledge,[/b] one becomes liable and responsible for passing that on for those who are looking.

Again, this supposes that the revelation you received on the fate of Judas Iscariot was indeed from God. Twice now you speak of receiving a privileged impartation of some sort. Brother, it is my understanding that you (this is not an ad hominem, but a referral to previous claims made by you that newer readers may not be aware of) regard yourself as a prophet here in the forums, and one who recieves special insights (such as this) and [i]knowledge[/i] to grasp the hidden things of God, and in particular, prognostications. Note, I am not going to argue this, or make a judgment. But I am a bit concerned about anyone who makes repeated claims of special impartations of "grace" to understand the centuries-old nebulous mysteries that God in His wisdom has chosen to conceal.

Brother Paul

The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect

This is commonly known as a belief in a "limited atonement" (some Reformed men prefer to call it "definite atonement"). It is the teaching that Christ died on the cross and paid the penalty only for the sins of the elect. He did not die for the ones who eventually will be in the lake of fire. Often it is worded as follows: "Christ died for all men WITHOUT DISTINCTION but He did not die for all men WITHOUT EXCEPTION." This is a subtle game of semantics which makes it possible for them to say that He died for all without really meaning that He died for all. What they really mean is that Christ died for all kinds of people and all classes of people, but He did not die for every single person. That is, He died for Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, slave and free, male and female, etc., but it is understood that He died for only elect Jews and Gentiles, only elect rich and poor, etc.

Dr. Paul Reiter, has clearly and simply summarized the Scriptural teaching on this issue. FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?

HE DIED . . .

1. For all (1 Tim. 2:6; Isa. 53:6).
2. For every man (Heb. 2:9).
3. For the world (John 3:16).
4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1).
7. For many (Matt. 20:28).
8. For Israel (John 11:50–51).
9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25).
10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20).

[From unpublished lecture notes written by Dr. Paul Reiter, former professor at Appalachian Bible College, Bradley, WV.]

It is evident that the extreme Calvinist must ignore the clear language and obvious sense of many passages and he must force the Scriptures and make them fit into his own theological mold. Limited atonement may seem logical and reasonable, but the real test is this: IS IT BIBLICAL? "What saith the Scriptures?" (Rom. 4:3). In childlike faith we must simply allow the Bible to say what it says.

Those who promote this erroneous doctrine try to tell us that "world" does not really mean "world" and "all" does not really mean "all" and "every man" does not really mean "every man" and "the whole world" does not really mean "the whole world." We are told that simple verses such as John 3:16 and Isaiah 53:6 must be understood not as a child would understand them but as a theologian would understand them. That is, we must reinterpret such verses in light of our system of theology.

The true doctrine of the atonement could be stated as follows:

The Scriptures teach that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God involved the sin of the world (John 1:29) and that the Savior’s work of redemption (1 Tim. 2:6; 2 Pet. 2:1), reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:19) and propitiation (1 John 2:2) was for all men (1 Tim. 4:10), but the cross–work of Christ is efficient, effectual and applicable only for those who believe (1 Tim. 4:10; John 3:16). We could even say it in a simpler way: "Christ’s death was SUFFICIENT FOR ALL but EFFICIENT only for those who believe." The cross–work of Christ is not limited, but the application of that cross–work through the work of the Holy Spirit is limited to believers only.

The extreme Calvinist would say that the cross was designed only for the elect and had no purpose for the "non–elect" (persistent unbelievers). But the death of God’s Son had a divine purpose and design for both groups. For the elect, God’s design was salvation according to His purpose and grace in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Tim. 1:9; 2 Thess. 2:13). For unbelievers, God’s purpose and design is to render the unbeliever without excuse. Men are CONDEMNED because they have rejected the Person and WORK of Jesus Christ and refused God’s only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40). Unbelievers can never say that a provision for their salvation was not made and not offered. They can never stand before God and say, "The reason I am not saved is because Christ did not die for me." No, the reason they are not saved is because they rejected the One who died for them and who is the Savior of all men (1 Tim. 4:10). They are without excuse.

This issue is not merely academic. It is extremely practical. It affects the very heart of the gospel and its presentation. The gospel which Paul preached to the unsaved people of Corinth was this: "Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3). Do we really have a gospel of good news for all men (compare Luke 2:10–11)? In preaching the gospel, what can we say to an unsaved person? Can we say, "My friend, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you. He paid the penalty for your sins. He died as your Substitute"?

One Reformed writer said this:

But counselors, as Christians, are obligated to present the claims of Christ. They must present the good news that Christ Jesus died on the cross in the place of His own, that He bore the guilt and suffered the penalty for their sins. He died that all whom the Father had given to Him might come unto Him and have life everlasting. As a reformed Christian, the writer believes that counselors must not tell any unsaved counselee that Christ died for him, FOR THEY CANNOT SAY THAT. No man knows except Christ Himself who are His elect for whom He died [emphasis mine]. [Jay Adams, Competent to Counsel, p. 70.}

As C.H.Mackintosh has said, "A disciple of the high school of doctrine [extreme Calvinist] will not hear of a world–wide gospel–of God’s love to the world–of glad tidings to every creature under heaven. He has only gotten a gospel for the elect."

How can we sincerely offer to men what has not been provided for them? How can we offer them a free gift if the gift has not been purchased for them? How can we urge them to drink from the fountain of life if no water has been provided for them? How can we tell them to be saved if the Lord Jesus Christ provided not for their salvation? How can we say to a person, “Take the medicine and be cured!” if there is no medicine to take and no cure provided? W. Lindsay Alexander explains: “On this supposition [that of a limited atonement] the general invitations and promises of the gospel are without an adequate basis, and seem like a mere mockery, an offer, in short, of what has not been provided.” [W. Lindsay Alexander, A System of Biblical Theology, 2nd volume, page 111]

If the Reformed preacher were really honest about it, he would need to preach his "gospel" along these lines:

"Perhaps Christ died for you."

"Maybe God so loved you."

"Christ shed His blood for you, perhaps."

"Salvation has been provided for you, maybe."

"Possibly God commendeth His love toward you."

"Hopefully He’s the propitiation for your sins."

"There is a possibility that Christ died as your Substitute."

"I bring you good news, maybe."

"It’s possible that Christ died for you. If you get saved then we know that He did die for you, but if you continue to reject Him then He did not die for you."

"Christ died for you only if you believe that Christ died for you (thus proving you are elect), but if you do not believe this and if you continue in your unbelief until the day you die, then Christ did not die for you."

Those who hold to a definite or limited atonement do not present the gospel in this way, but would not such a presentation be consistent with their theology? Would it not be a correct and cautious and sincere way of sharing with the unsaved? An extreme Calvinist must be very careful how he presents the cross-work of Christ to an unsaved person because he never really can be sure if Christ has made provision for that person. As Robert Lightner has said, "Belief in limited atonement means that the good news of God’s saving grace in Christ cannot be personalized. Those who hold to such a position cannot tell someone to whom they are witnessing that Christ died for him because that one may, in fact, not be one for whom Christ died." [This quote is from an article by Robert Lightner in the book, Walvoord: A Tribute, p. 166].

John Bunyan made this observation: "The offer of the Gospel cannot, with God’s allowance, be offered any further than the death of Christ did go; because if it be taken away, there is indeed no Gospel, nor grace to be extended" (Bunyan’s Works). In other words, how can you offer the gospel to a person if Christ did not die for that person? How can we offer the sinner what has not been provided? As Lightner has said, "No maxim appears more certain than that a salvation offered implies a salvation provided." [Robert Lightner, The Death Christ Died, p. 114]

Boettner says: "Universal redemption means universal salvation" (cited by Lightner, The Death Christ Died, p. 96). The extreme Calvinist argues that Christ must save everyone that He died for. They reason thus: "If Christ died for everyone, then everyone will be saved." Let’s think about the logic of this statement. This would be like saying, "If medicine is available for everyone, then everyone must be healed." This is obviously false. The medicine, though available, will not do any good unless it is taken. "There is more than enough cool, refreshing water for every thirsty person in the village." Does this mean that every person in the village will have his thirst quenched? Only if every person drinks! We need to make a difference between redemption accomplished and redemption applied.

"Lord, I believe were sinners more
Than sands upon the ocean shore,
Thou hast for all a ransom paid,
For all a full atonement made."

--Nikolaus L. von Zinzendorf, 1739

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/dangerso.htm

I have been looking through some commentary's on these verses, and I must say "I dont know". And I belive it is so with the whole calvinism vs everything else, and many other subjects. We just dont know all the answers. The bible isent an encyclopedia with all information in it, God has kept us on a "need to know basis" I think you Americans say :-)

But how ever, Many verses say God wants everyone to be saved.... it is there. To say otherwise is to lie. Also there are verses on election, predestination and such. How does it fit together? I dont know, but many brighter heads then yours and mine have tried to work it out and failed through the centuries Tozer said. And I wont say I am brighter then all those people, what I can do is ask the Lord to reveal it to me, and maybe it pleases him to do so. Til then i stick with what i know and what i see in scripture. And it says right there ALL men.

And i cant see it says God chose Judas for hell. Or predestined him for hell. I can see scripture telling us God knew how Judas would act and do.

I have been looking through some commentary's on these verses, and I must say "I dont know". And I belive it is so with the whole calvinism vs everything else, and many other subjects. We just dont know all the answers.

Very wise statement, Christian. You'll find the greatest men of God -- that is, those who have progessed greatly in Christ's school through trials and brokeness and humilty -- will not give you an absolute answer pertaining to these things. This is because, paradoxically, they know the Word of God [i]too well[/i] to make any such assumption. We may be sure on many, many things pertaining to salvation and the like, but on this, God has chosen to conceal absolute knowledge. I believe that any man, any preacher, teacher, any prophet who comes and boldy proclaims to know the absolute truth to this dilemma has forgotten that he knows nothing as he ought. This is why the men who know God's Word best and continually abide in Christ will not over-inflate to give you an absolute on this topic. Because deep in their hearts [i]they know that they don't know,[/i] and God won't allow them to teach personal presumptions (no matter how fervently they believe in them) as absolute truth. The best any of us can say is, "I believe" -- or, even better, "I just don't know". This is true wisdom, it keeps us safe, and gives us peace.

I've heard messages by Keith Daniel, Poonen, Dr. Wiersbe, and Tozer where they are coaxed during Q&A meetings and informal talks to give personal answers pertaining to this. They always seem to wisely avoid the unknowable absolute; they may say the Bible teaches both views, they might say not to go beyond what is written. They will say God's ways are beyond ours, and in eternity it will all make sense when the dark glass is taken away. They may share their personal belief, but I've never heard any of them teach or preach such a thing from the pulpit with absolute resolve.

Brother Paul

Brethren,

1Co 13:9 [b]For we know in part and we prophesy in part.[/b]
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Amen.

bro Paul
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

God personally told you that He chose Judas from the foundation of the world to suffer a fate worse in severity than if God had never birthed him? Was this knowledge given to you in a dream or vision? Please don't say the Word of God is abundantly clear on this, or you do a disservice to greater men than yourself who have wrestled this issue for centuries and centuries with unresolve.

to me bro, the scripture in John 17 and the same saying of Jesus as recorded in the other gospels makes it plain. had Judas not existed he'd not have to deal with the consequenced of what he did.i believe it is simple and concise that yes as far as Judas was concerned, it would have been better not for him to have been born just like some things are better not to be said/done because for you/me they bring much pain, but the end of it is something even better as far as God is concerned. it's not that i received it in a vision or dream but it jumps out at me in the text.indeed great men have wrestled with this befor i have, greater by far than i but that doesn't change it has been made plain. i don't say that as though i think i'm better but as a testimony to the Goodness and Grace of God that He'd even make plain something as this. i certainly would much rather have said nothing but to me it is plain so i believe that the greater disservice would have been silence. at the end of the day, if indeed God has spoken and i had been silent, what could have been said in my defense when i have to give an account? God will either vindicate me if He has spoken (this goes for anyone else by the way) or eradicate me coz if none of this is of Him then i got problems...it's easier to say it's not Him, i can just sit down, but if it is Him things get a bit difficult...

bro Paul was given such insight into the mysteries of predestination and free will and he wrote of it in Romans 9. He understood it well enough to write about it and as i read it, it's pretty plain to me that our free will is wrapped up in His Sovereign will and it's not either or. Paul did explain many mysteries of God and his writings plainly spell them out.

bro, if it is who regard myself a prophet and i'm not called to be then i'm a man in much need of prayer...if 1/1/08 comes by and nothing of what i have said (and it will have been me not our Lord) then i'll come through here, apologize, repent and you won't have to worry about me saying anything further.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

bro Kire Greetings in Jesus' NAme by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Tears_of_joy wrote:
Brethren,

1Co 13:9 [b]For we know in part and we prophesy in part.[/b]
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Amen.

indeed we do, i never said i knew every in and out of the whole deal with Judas, but to me the text concerning those which God gave to Jesus and He didn't lose and Judas in John 17 is plain to me.i do hope someone out there knows more about this episode. sure it would have been better for Judas not to have been born but that would have been at the expense of "so that the scripture may be fulfilled" to me that's the key. it may have been good for Judas, but would it have been good for God?

as for the death of Christ for the Elect i do belive it is so. it has been argued that such is illogical or that it may dampen efforts to evangelize or why evangelize at all etc. For the Elect, the issue of Evangelizing is not in question, he that is called isn't going to say "well i won't evangelize because all the Elect are going to be saved anyway" rather he goes forth to fulfill the great commission knowing that not all are called but doing so for no other reason than that is the command of the Master.He that is of the Elect will seek to do the will of the Father and not his own as Jesus stated in John 6. He that is among the elect doesn't languish in that knowledge but by the Spirit of God goes forth to do what is pleasing before GOd. i believe that many people haven't considered that Truth. that we encounter those who don't believe is not without purpose.

brethren for your consideration some verses from John 6 which speak to me of how Salvation is a thing which is initiated by the Father and even our response to it requires His Grace.

vs 39:

[b][color=0000FF]`And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;[/color][/b]

we ought to ask then, who are these which aren't lost but are raised on the last day?

[b][color=0000FF]61 And Jesus having known in himself that his disciples are murmuring about this, said to them, `Doth this stumble you? 62 if then ye may behold the Son of Man going up where he was before? 63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life; 64 but there are certain of you who do not believe;' for Jesus had known from the beginning who they are who are not believing, and who is he who will deliver him up, 65 and he said, `Because of this I have said to you -- No one is able to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father.'[/color][/b]

nobody can come to Christ except the Father draw him...does GOd draw people and fail?

Peter proclaimed Jesus as Messiah and what was Jesus' Response? that flesh and Blood hadn't revealed that to him but the Father in Heaven did.

i do believe saints that our Salvation isn't simply a matter of our deciding for Christ but it rests on the Father drawing us into Him and anything less would place man in a position which is God's.

then at the end of John 6:

[b][color=0000FF]70 Jesus answered them, `Did not I choose you -- the twelve? and of you -- one is a devil. 71 And he spake of Judas, Simon's [son], Iscariot, for he was about to deliver him up, being one of the twelve.[/color][/b]

so Jesus chose Judas and yet Judas was the betrayer. to me this ties into what Paul says of God in Romans 9:

[b][color=0000FF]19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?' 20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus? 21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour? 22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us -- 24 not only out of Jews, but also out of nations, [/color][/b]

if what Paul says is true, that God has appointed some vessels unto wrath and others Mercy, shall we then (irrespective of which camp we're in) ask "why have you made me so?"

i suppose a part of our displeasure at this whole arrangement of things and how it all hinges on Him is the revelation that we are powerless to save ourselves and have no recourse but to trust in Him Wholly.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

A very appropriate verse for this topic would be Romans 11:33, O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

The Word of God will cut down any man who thinks he's got it all figured out, because the foolishness of God is wiser than men. But those who come to the faith must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

You must believe God is good! Jesus clearly said, "the son of man is not come to destroy men's lives but to save them". He died for our sins, not only ours but the world's also.

So I would say to all, come unto Christ all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and He will give you rest. For He truly is meek and lowly at heart.

With Love- timmyjoe

"I don't know" - I believe God honors these three words more than a million dissertations in conjectural theology. When we get brutally honest with ourselves, when we trim away all the fat, blow all the sugar off, and reduce all our acquired knowledge and pet convictions and theological interpretations down to the least common denominator, we suddenly find that we really don't know anything when it comes to stuff like this.

I used to fear those three words. Now, I relish saying them, because I know how much it pleases God to hear them, and how through them He is able to bring peace, and, amazingly enough, enlightenment and wisdom to areas we can actually employ for His glory.

Oh a million times yes! So refreshing to hear this out loud ... from someone else. Brother, it is my most frequently repeated prayer, the inverse and response of that other great utterance;

"Oh Lord, Thou knowest"

Heart-Faith And Not Mind-Faith - Zac Poonen

[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=111&date=07_11&title=Heart-Failth+And+Not+Mind-Faith]I thought this weeks word from bro Zac was good on this subject of faith[/url]

maybe not so much on some of the things discussed here, but still some very good things to take to heart. Be blessed