This needs attending to:

I wasn't planning to post this, as many of you may have read it in My Utmost for His Highest, but I also a (tho ChrisJD put it better) am concerned about the amount of energy and personal frustration which is exerted on this topic, likely because we are not beginning where most people would, to define basic terms [i]before[/i] engaging in discussion about how they interact with each other [u]in scripture[/u].

This is the entry for 28th October, entitled Justification by Faith. I believe it establishes the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world as the [i]raison d'etre[/i] of the operation of faith. Did Chambers express something almost inexpressible? [i]I think so.[/i]

[i]I am not saved by believing; I realize I am saved by believing. It is not repentance that saves me, repentance is the sign that I realize what God has done in Christ Jesus. The danger is to put the emphasis on the effect instead of on the cause. It is my obedience that puts me right with God, my consecration. Never! I am put right with God because prior to all, Christ died. When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals I can accept, instantly the stupendous Atonement of Jesus Christ rushes me into a right relationship with God; and by the supernatural miracle of God's grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, not because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done. The Spirit of God brings it with a breaking, all-over light, and I know, though I do not know how, that I am saved.

The salvation of God does not stand on human logic, it stands on the sacrificial Death of Jesus. We can be born again because of the Atonement of Our Lord. Sinful men and women can be changed into new creatures, not by their repentance or their belief, but by the marvellous work of God in Christ Jesus which is prior to all experience. The impregnable safety of justification and sanctification is God Himself. We have not to work out these things ourselves; they have been worked out by the Atonement. The supernatural becomes natural by the miracle of God; there is the realization of what Jesus Christ has already done - [b]"It is finished."[/b][/i]

Some are claiming that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.

I can not eat worms. I can, but I won't because it is disgusting and I hate the thought of it.

Men hate God, yes all men can be saved, but they won't because they hate God to much. Just sit at Starbucks and listen to random conversations for a while. It is no secret that men are the most vile and depraved creatures in existance. Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ though! All glory to Him.

and BTW, I am not a "5 point calvinist".

In Christ - Jim

Logic-

Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ though! All glory to Him.

OK, you got me??? Sorry I got involved in your little conquest here. I pray you are as passionate for feeding the orphans and widows and keeping your heart unspotted as you are about your theoligcal warmongering. I truly mean that, I know it sounds sarcastic but it is not.

So anyway, thanks be to God for His mercy and that His kingdom is not in word but in power.

In Christ - Jim

IRONMAN wrote:
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

dear saints i do believe that a major part of our problems with how God operates lies in our own secret vanity. if there is a problem with anything concerning God, we can be sure that the problem isn't with Him but it rests with us. We measure God by our own standard, or try understand Him with out own understanding and the tell tale sign of that is when we find Him unfair, confusing or in any way uncomfortable fot us...God doesn't do what we would do if we were Him...that is our problem, that is the standard we use to measure God, if i were God, i'd not have done this or that, or i'd not have asked this and that, vanity...

That God asked, no told Adam not to mess with that tree says to me obedience wasn't beyond Adam's reach, he did obey for a time. that one of the consequences of that is we are unable to be Saved unless God moves, that is God has already called and chosen the Elect (i take a literal view of Romans 9) is His Divine Prerogative so unless you're Him, you ain't God no business asking the potter why He made you thus...

i remember when Job wanted to get into God's Face about all the drama going on with him and God asked him some questions to which even today we only have answered a few. so like God said "who is this who darkens my counsel with words without knowledge...where were you when I...?" if you weren't there...well...like Job said "uh, uh, uh..."

Some have argued that if God has already chosen then why evangelize, coz He said so, furthermore, he who is among the Elect will not reason in any other way so as to conclude that there is no need to evangelize...no way. it has been presented that this is somehow unfair, he man look, if God has spoken about this and decided what He's going to do, you can jump up and down all you want but it won't mean squat because it is His standard by which we will all be Judged.

the scripture is plain, God chose Isaac, then He chose Jacob over Esau...before either one could do anything...that is Divine Prerogative folks...Esau gave up his birthright because God had already determined before Esau ate that stew that Jacob would have the birthright...in the end it all rests on Him, like Paul said, it ain't about he who runs or wills, but it's about He who shows Mercy. i understand this insamuch as i know i am a vessel of Mercy and as such i'm out looking for other such vessels.

bro Logic, i love you in the Lord but if you want answers to what you asked, you'd better ask the Author. some of us know bits and pieces, enough for us to move along without bugging out over it like you are but unless He brings you to that knowledge which sets you at ease, you'll be running around trying to figure it out all your life and never get anywhere.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

The first thing I heard God say to me when I read this is that He chose the weak things not the strong.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

This is deliberate, like it or not. Like you were trying to say; God is God and I'm not.

All messages of importancemust have a firm
foundation in Christ. Even
though the Old Testament
reveals Christ in types and
shadows, this is not a good
foundation for revelation
knowledge. Types are left to
the imagination of the
teacher and to his cleverness
to draw something of
Christ from them. Shadows
are something that can flee
away. These methods do not
make a good foundation for
spirit revelation.
We have a saying in the
Christ-life message, “You
must start out right to end
right.” Truer words were
never spoken. Most modern
preaching starts from
the Old Testament or the
four Gospels, but none of
these have the revelation
of the mystery that was
revealed to Paul. by Frank Stigal.

Hebrews 8:5
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

I find the comment by Frank Stigal very interesting.
Because the word Shadow is used by the author of Hebrews and other places in Scripture, Colossians for one, it is necessary that our Revelation Knowledge of Christ is absolutely based upon scriptural fact.

Many today claim to have *revelation knowledge* of Jesus Christ not based on scripture at all.

God had revealed His WILL to *us* through these types and shadows laid out in the Old Testament.

Many words, in the 7 letters to the Churches in
the beginning of Revelation (not to mention through out) take on that of a type or shadow. Example.....does Jezebel really exist today, or are we to draw from this something deeper.

Never underestimate how the Holy Spirit reveals truths to us, not only conforming us to His Image, but keeping us out of trouble.

The OT is fulfilled in the New, and the New is revealed in the Old. The Lord even used parables and allegories to teach us.

The author of Hebrews uses the crossing of the Jordan, The Rest of God and many many more to instruct us. ALL scripture we are told is for instruction in righteousness.

Paul in Corinthians uses the provocation ( Israel's disobedience in the wilderness) as instruction as well.

Not only does this add to the Revelation of the Will of God through Jesus Christ, but the revelation of Jesus Christ to His Church.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

1 Corinthians 10:1-12
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

[color=0000FF]11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. [/color]

[color=0000FF]12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.[/color]

Thank You Glory to Glory. I thought first I would tag this on to my last, but will place here.

PS added for content:

The only hope for fallen, guilty, sinners is redemption, a redemption which includes atonement for sin, satisfaction for justice, and effectual deliverance from the guilt, power, dominion, and consequences of sin. Such redemption could be accomplished by only one Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, our Savior. Not only could he alone do it, he has done it, and he has done it alone.

When we consider the doctrine of redemption, we have come to the most important gospel truth. In our day, men attack the doctrine of the cross than any thing else. They deny the efficacy of Christ’s sin-atoning blood than any other doctrine.

Because the doctrine of redemption by the precious blood of Christ is so very important, I urge you to carefully study each verse of Hebrews along with OT Leviticus on this subject, comparing scripture with scripture, asking for clear understanding in the teachings of Holy Scripture about redemption.

The Holy Spirit declares in Hebrews 10:1 - "For the law having a *****shadow***** of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." According to those words, the law in the Old Testament Scriptures had a shadow of good things to come. That is to say, God, in the Old Testament, under the types and shadows of the law, gave many pictures and prophecies of what he would do for and give to us through his Son, OUR Lord Jesus Christ. The sacrifices offered to God in the Old Testament could never take away one sin. However, the law did have many instructive pictures, types , and shadows of our redemption by the blood of Christ.

In each of those types , pictures, and prophecies it set forth the redemptive work of Christ and has shown us several things now made more obvious. These obvious facts teach us much about the subject of redemption.

With Love Again
Katy

:-)

Some have argued that if God has already chosen then why evangelize, coz He said so, furthermore, he who is among the Elect will not reason in any other way so as to conclude that there is no need to evangelize...no way. it has been presented that this is somehow unfair, he man look, if God has spoken about this and decided what He's going to do, you can jump up and down all you want but it won't mean squat because it is His standard by which we will all be Judged.

Actually Ironman, the standard that we will be judged is by those who have accepted or rejected Jesus Christ.

You will find in Scripture that in the Beginning:

1. MAN seared his own conscience of the Glory of God they had. We have no Idea what that was like.

2. That Paul said SATAN has blinded the eyes of the lost.

3. That God blinded the eyes of Israel until the fulness of the Gentile comes in.

Each has it's own distinct reasons...Yes!

Jesus said, as Moses lifted up the Serpent in the Wilderness, so must WE lift up Jesus Christ.

John said, the atoning Blood of Jesus Christ, is not only for the us but also for the WHOLE world.

Paul said again , that the Foolishness of God is wiser then men, and just for that reason Salvation is given to those who believe...what, God's exclusion? I don't think that is the Gospel message at all. What GOOD NEWS could there be in that...for teh Lost I mean.

We have been given the Ministry of reconciliation...

[u][b]Be ye reconciled to God through Christ![/b][/u]

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Again, I am seriouse, Please explain this theology with out the above excuses.

Some here on this Forum make this to be only for a chosen few(the Elect), where God is not ALL Loving and very finite in grace; Creating men that are the non-chosen few.
These must be hated creations, for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell, which is contrary to reality.

Some are claiming that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.

Some claim that one must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.

Logic,

Here is an answer that I would like to present to you. I Understand your frustration, as I have felt this same frustration through teh teaching of a doctrine I also do not agree with and here is why:

I Believe.....
Election vs. Faith

Romans 9-11 Paul turns aside from his explanation of Grace through Faith , Given to Jew and Gentile alike Romans 1-8 through the preaching of the Gospel, now turns to the present dealing with Israel. God has committed Himself to bless Israel, and look, they have been Nationally set aside for what….he explains why….until the fullness of the Gentile come in.

He is laying a foundation in Romans 9, not of individual election, but of Israel’s Election. Jacob was renamed Israel, not Abraham, not Isaac, but Jacob. The Promise given to Abraham, now more fully developed, where will this seed (Christ), come? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must be completely understood. Not Abraham, Ishmael and Esau, as some today would like to think, considering themselves Abraham’s seed. Romans 10- 16, after this complete and thorough announcement, continues back to this MERCY given to Gentiles…ends Romans with stating “My Gospel“ , The Gospel of the Mystery for the obedience of faith …to ALL nations.

Would you like to be a Child of Promise? You can be you know. Those who receive Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sin, receive the Promise Paul explains in Galatians, The Promise that is now to come to the Gentiles, The Promise of the Spirit. Those who are of the Spirit are the Children of Promise. Yes, that is exactly what Galatians says. The Spirit of the Life of Christ that sets you free from the law of sin and death. You ask, what Law of Sin and death. The law of sin and death that took place at the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve sinned, and all died. Even before the Law of Moses was sin and death. Even before the Law of Moses was this promise made…to Abraham, having nothing what so ever to do with the Law of Moses. Romans 4. So if election were only by those who were picked as Isaac and Jacob, then what would faith have to do with anything.

Israel, mine Elect, was the carrier of the seed, which is Christ, Yes, now that is by election. God elected it so. Their faith had nothing at all to do with it…there was NO FAITH in Isaac or Jacob’s election what so ever. Yet we are SAVED by grace through Faith, not be election. One seed, not many seeds. One seed which is Christ. That is made clear. Now those who believe in elite election must see themselves as many seeds, or many Christ’s . One Christ, One Body. He is the Head, we are His Body.

This is one of the Promises in the Everlasting Covenant, made between Father Son and Holy Spirit on behalf of fallen man.

God knowing before the foundation of the world the fall of man through Adam's sin. He is called the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Our redemption was predestined. Along with our sanctification to be partakers of the His Holiness (God)through Jesus Christ . 2 Peter 1

No other way to have complete fellowship with God(AGAIN) apart from these truths.

The Preaching of the Gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation. Hearing it and receiving these truths ( faith comes by hearing) not by predestination, but the predestination of the Gospel massage to all who believe and receive God's Gift...Jesus Christ for the Remission/forgivness of sin are guaranteed to be conformed to His image. (The Church) who Christ will present to Himself, without spot or wrinkle.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Katy-did said

He is laying a foundation in Romans 9, not of individual election, but of Israel’s Election.

The distinction you make here, is novel, but I see what you mean.

Israel, mine Elect, was the carrier of the seed, which is Christ, Yes, now that is by election. God elected it so. Their faith had nothing at all to do with it…there was NO FAITH in Isaac or Jacob’s election what so ever.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel

Lets put tht into perspective.

All men, from Adam and Eve to the end of time will be judged according to the Gospel. I do believe at the great white throne, there will be the Book of Life there too. No mattter How good anyone's works were ( possible degrees of hell) if their name was not written in the Book of Life from the foundation fo teh world my understanding is...well!

Paul first mentioned the MYSTERY in Romans 16, not at the beginning of Romans, where he lays the foundation of God and man.

If you are suggesting this Mystery that was intrusted to Paul to bring to the Gentiles will be something OT Saints will be judged by, then I would say, they are eternally lost, for no such knowledge was made known.

However from Genesis 3:15 onward, the Gospel of Salvation has been made known to all. Abel and OT saints, Hebrews 11, knowing nothing about PAUL's GOSPEL, are the Spirits of Just men made perfect...with Christ as we speak. Hebrews 12.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Good Morning Dorcas,

Yes, "National" Israel was set aside, not individual Jews. We know at teh day of Pentecost thousands of Jews ONLY were saved. The Church age began with JEWS. Yes all have sinned.

God truns now from National Salvation (of which we see at the end of Romans 11 (ALL Israel will be saved) to individual salvation.

Chapters 9-11 go far deeper than what one wants to skim off the surface to prove a particular doctrine that doesn't exist.

Romans 1-8 have nothing what so ever to do with election, but man who had the consciencesness of God at that time.

For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world[u][b]are clearly seen[/b][/u] [u][i][b][size=xx-small][color=000000]being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse[/color][/size][/b][/i][/u].

It was man who seared his own conscience, not God.

So in fact God is a fair and Just God who has made Himself KNOWN to all men in one form or fashion. He Spoke to us through the Prophets, and now has spoken to us through His Son. The US is not an eclusive elite of Elect. The US is ALL mankind.

Faith is believing what was spoken to be true and by faith receiving those truths. Abraham is the example of faith...He believed God, and it was counted to Him for righteousness.

Ninevah believed Jonah and repented. Was Ninevah God's elite Elect? No, but they heard didn't they, and not only that repented upon what they heard.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hi Katy,

On many points I agree with you. Which doesn't mean I don't differ on some. But this thread was really set up to challenge those who use a different word for the faith which is created by hearing the word of truth: they call it 'regeneration' and say that until a man has been regenerated he cannot believe (exercise faith), and that God's election to salvation has all been settled in heaven before we were born, so that some men are elected to destruction and nothing anyone can say or do will save them...

I certainly don't agree with this explanation for God's speakings, movings and workings in individual men, because it denies the truths in other scriptures, and I have come to understand 'other scriptures' often hold the key to understanding [u]better[/u], matters which appear to have more said about them (if that makes sense). So, your explanation of the word 'elect' ties in with Young's use of 'fore-appointed' rather than 'pre-destined'.

Some of the KJV's language is weighted to maintain the differential between rulers and their subjects, and this is one place where, in the climate of James VI and I's preoccupation with 'the divine right of kings' (which later influenced his son to make such poor political decisions that he finally was beheaded), we see [i]an impression of (non-existent) divine prejudice being added to the text[/i], which those fighting for the supremacy of God's word revealed in scripture (as opposed to the traditions of Rome), have grappled with ever since.

Slowly, (climbing onto soap box; Katy, you can sit down now ;-) ), as this subject has been discussed again and again, I am finding myself falling back on what I would call the big picture - that God intends [i]relationship[/i], because there is pure love amongst the members of the Godhead, and He intends [i]increase[/i], because He cannot be contained... (I tried qualifying that statement, but... probably best not to!) So, God desires a relationship with His creation, which He had had, apparently.

But, I [i]will[/i] qualify this statement, in that He knew He had cast Satan out of heaven, and he had become the prince of the power of the air. And He knew Satan would look for a place on earth, which would [i]most[/i] corrupt God's next work as soon as there was dry land to walk upon. And God [u]knew[/u] how vile Lucifer had become when he rebelled, so He might have predicted Satan would wait for [i]man's[/i] appearance, and set out to corrupt the image that most revealed God's nature - a nature that desires relationship obsessively (for that is what Divine love sets out to do to us, and what man desires from woman and vice versa).

In fact, God did not give Adam a choice. He gave him an order which had clear consequences if Adam disobeyed. And God kept His word. Because He wants man to [i]consent[/i] to the relationship God has in mind. But to begin to understand how it is the relationship God offers is more than fair, each person invited to it, has to catch a glimpse of the eternal proportions of it. I don't know if there are people who hear the gospel and really don't [i]see[/i] anything at all of God's love for them, or, of God's judgement on sin. But even if they are completely dense before they hear the gospel, [u]I believe the word of truth, preached faithfully in its fulness, is able to make them know enough[/u] to say 'yes Lord', as Paul did.

I would hate anyone reading this to think they have missed the boat... that they know they should have said 'yes' to God on Sunday, or a year ago, or twenty years ago, and they are languishing under a doctrine which tells them they are now excluded. It's a [u]lie[/u]. God is able to save [i]to the uttermost[/i] those who [i]come to Him[/i] through Christ Jesus. Yes, it's a narrow door. But what is your soul worth to you if you reject Him, when God has declared plainly to all principalities and powers, that it was worth Jesus dying [i]for[/i] you? [i][b]Believe! Believe![/i][/b] That's all there is to do at the beginning. God is love. He really does care. But He is not messing around when He calls, invites, compels, desires, hopes, entreats for our affirmative responses.

But, He is waiting for a full-hearted commitment to His love, so He can grip us with it, and save us as He has promised. He paid the price and we cannot wriggle out of our debt to Him while saying yes with our lips only. He wants our hearts to [i]go with Him[/i]. And He is willing to minister to us that our hearts may expand to receive [u]more[/u] of His love, as we are able.

I don't have half such a problem with the thought that people deselect themselves because their hearts are evil and they choose to stay evil (especially since someone like Legion could [u]run[/u] to Jesus [u]and[/u] worship Him (Mark's account) [i]before[/i] he had had any demons cast out, but I have a [i]huge[/i] problem with any presentation which makes God out as unwelcoming to the sinners for whom He died, or unwilling to forgive them, unwilling to save them according to their faith in the word He has spoken to them, or unwilling even to countenance their approach to Him, because of declarations from[i] men[/i] to the contrary.

I would rather preach the gospel that [i]Jesus Christ preached - 'whosoever will may come' - which is in the Bible right up to its last few verses [/i]- than stand before Him one day having to explain why I told some people that they had been destined to hell [i]by God[/i], and needn't even bother applying for eternal life. :-?

Give me a break.

What's more, this dispute is not Calvin's fault, and anyone reading this who thinks they are saved because they're a Calvinist, is building on sand. The Bible doesn't mention Calvin. Okay? Furthermore, the word of God [i][u]will[/i][/u] last for ever. Only here is a safe Rock on which to build your hiding-place.

I feel a whole lot better for having said all that, and I do know it looks as if I don't believe some people are saved because they would call themselves Calvinists. That is not my point if you know Jesus Christ as your Saviour.

What I am resisting in the spurious [i]helmet of salvation[/i] which follows from accepting non-biblical doctrine, because it will lead you to reason incorrectly at times when your [u]only[/u] defence is [b]truth - the pure word[/b] - and not an(y) interpretation of it will suffice.

Slowly, (climbing onto soap box; Katy, you can sit down now ),

Oh Dorcas, I would stand on the roof tops, preaching whosoever will, if I thought I wouldn't fall and break my neck.

Unlike you, I have very deep convictions concerning whosoever will.

Jesus told the Jews

Nineveh will rise in Judgement against this generation, because they repented on the preaching of Jonah, yet there is one here greater than Jonah.

Lifting up the serpent in the wilderness was *WHO SO EVER WILL*.

My soap box was answering Logic's original question. If this subject has been discussed so many times before, then why post and ask again, scolding those who reply?

Stephen didn't mind standing on his soap box, getting stoned to death in doing so. I guess he could have taken the diplomatic way out and just said, Whatever, the Elect are saved regardless.

Do you know Dorcas, many who believe in this doctrine BOYCOTT revivals wearing t-shirts saying "NO CHOICE".

Man is given a choice. Choose LIFE!

We also know that even after God rejected Cain's offering, God still had fellowship with Cain and gave him a second chance to do what was right in God's eyes, not his own.

There is no scripture that says a man is regenerated (born again) first in order to believe God. OT Saints, we both know and have discussed on another thread did not posess teh indwelling of the Holy Spirit (regeneration) yet were saved by faith and obedient to the revelations of what was given to them.

Regeneration is your New Birth in the NT. That comes with repentance.

When Paul found several after Pentecost who of coarse repented with John's preaching knew nothing of the Holy Spirit, Paul having to explain more fully the fulness of Salvation and regeneration.

That came by hearing as well. If they were all ready regenerated, no such explination was necesary.

Well, Not that I'm stepping down from this soap box, but I do have to get going.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

Hi Katy,

I don't know what gave you the idea I don't have 'very deep convictions' about 'whosoever will'. Such as they are, are tempered with the other verses about the Father drawing us to Jesus (and so on), and with an understanding that the whole of mankind is made in the image of God with an affinity for fellowship with Him.

It is a Roman (church) doctrine that sin is so hard to be forgiven, and get free from that we have to work for it, which came from Europe through the Anglican church, into the Americas. And this seems to have brought with it an accompanying thought that therefore, anyone who finds God and is truly saved into a life of overcoming sin and knowing peace with God through Christ, must somehow have been given this extra-special deal by Him, above one's peers. I don't think so.

Do you know Dorcas, many who believe in this doctrine BOYCOTT revivals wearing t-shirts saying "NO CHOICE".

I feel perhaps I should desist from this thread now. There is no reasoning with me from scripture, that all the work we have to do is toss a bit of evangelism out, in the hope that those predestined for salvation will catch the bait. No. There is much more that we are called upon to do to [i]live[/i] like Jesus, that this is not only about evangelism, but that the image of God in man be restored as far as possible.... and partly by our service.

Don't misunderstand me. God is speaking to my heart through all this discussion. It has not been fruitless for me to think on these things.

don't know what gave you the idea I don't have 'very deep convictions' about 'whosoever will'.

I would have been more than greatful to share my soap box. As a matter of fact, I welcome all aboard! I see many soap boxes here on line, issues discussed many times over. The Prosperity Gospel for one. Hats off to those who will gladly take that stand.

When it comes to one's eternal salvation, many of these issues are of up-most importance, not just to discuss among ourselves, but to put into action.

After getting off earlier, I re-read the whole book of Acts. How refreshing that was, and so much just jumped out at me. I mean JUMPED OUT.

The Beginning of the Church as I said before were Jews, thousands of them. What was preached to them? Paul wasn't there, and the preaching was ...guess what...Old Testament...right in their faces. No who said the OT holds no power? Hello!

More interesting is the order of what was said.
Repent, for the remission of Sin, in the name of Jesus Christ, and in doing so, you will receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Over and Over. Whosoever will was also said...

The Gift of the Holy Spirit, the Gift that now seals us until the day of redemption, the Gift given to repentant sinners to do a deeper work in our lives. Who's lives? Those who repented.

When I asked Logic, would you like to ba a child of promise, I wasn't kidding. With the Gift of the Holy Spirit, You are Promised by God Himself to Jesus Christ a Gift, and Promised so many things you could never imagine.

Acts also says the Gift of the Holy Spirit are given to those who OBEY Him. Obey in what? Could this be the "Obedience of Faith" for all Nations Paul spoke of in Romans? Obedience of Faith. Not Obedience of Law. Obedience of Faith in Jesus Christ. Obedient to that form of Doctrine that was first delivered ( Romans 6) aaawwww!

Look up the two verses that use the word regeneration. There are only two in scripture. One in Matthew, and one in Titas.

Look up the definition.

I like the one in Matthew. Was that the form of doctrine that was first delivered? Possible. Total Surrender, just like Romans 6 and Romans 12:1&2.

Debate is very good. Even argument is good as well. It gets the blood flowing...manes you look up things and by doing so, God will bless even more. But you have to be open to the Holy Spirit.

Yep. The one in Mattther is really awesome. Whosoever will........you read the rest.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hello Phillip,

That was very good.

One thing...no maybe two or three things I would like to ask you. Because I have heard this before stated exactly as you say, I had some questions I asked the Lord About.

1. Is 2 Corinthians 3 this New Covenant/ New Testament written on the Heart? Was Paul talking to Jews or Gentiles? Is there a difference between Covenant and Testament?

Woops, I think more than 3 or 4 here.

When the Author of Hebrews was writing to the Jews, was it about the future restoration of earthly Israel or was it in *real time*...NOW is the day of Salvation. Were they told to wait, salvation is not for you, or the promises of the Holy Spirit promised in the New Covenant was something future. Then you must believe Hebrews has no application to the Church what so ever.

These were those exact questions I did ask the Lord...do these promises apply to me now, or are you telling me Lord I am not part of the Church, but if I am able to live into the future restoration of earthly Israel, maybe I will be able to enjoy these benefits.

He said No, My dear, not only are these to you now, but the Gentiles are also partakers of the Covenant*S* of Promise. As you can see in 2 Corinthians 3, the Corinthians are Gentiles NOW enjoying the New Testament/Covenant promises.

Does Hebrews Chapter 8 specifically say this is *not* for today? Please show me where this is said?

Scripture has many layers of Truth. Just as Jesus of the Seed of David brought forth the redeemer, this same Jesus of the seed of David will bring forth KING. Is one sacrificed for another?

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Paul preaching to the Ephesians about this MYSTERY
carefully coordinates his thoughts based solely on the Covenants of Promise through the blood of Jesus Christ. No other Book but Hebrews so carefully explains the Blood of the Covenant.

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Hebrews 10 applies here....

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

[u][i]12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [/i][/u]

[u][b][size=xx-small]13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ[/size][/b][/u]

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Well we covered the Blood and the Covenant on the last post, here is the Cherry on top of this Sunday:

This part is so very exciting. You ask, what does that have to do with the Spirit? I’ll never forget when the Lord showed me this confirming, How and through what means we receive the Holy Spirit….

Hebrews 13:
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Romans 8:
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,( Hebrews 13:20&21) he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

There we now are, our indwelling Holy Spirit, Born Again, Regenerated.

Now Romans 8 makes so much more sense. The Spirit of the Life of Christ that set us free from the law of sin and death.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Good Morning Ginnyrose,

Oh I do love the Book of Job,

Many things I have gleened so many things from Job. I believe it was Peter or James who also refers to Job, his sufferings etc.

Job, we know sacrificed to God, so he knew about sacrifice as did Cain and Abel.

He was called righteous by God, I'm sure, because anyone even from the beginning of Genesis to now, who put their faith in the coming redeemer was called righteous.

How do we know he put his faith in the coming redeemer?

1. He said, I know that my redeemer liveth.
2. He said I know that I will see Him in the last day...he believed in the resurrection.
3. He said through his sufferings, I shall come forth as GOLD.

So yes, we know those who put their faith in the promised redeemer ( Genesis 3:15) were indeed saved.

These are the spirits of Just men now made perfect. Hebrews 12.

A whole list of Saints in Hebrews 11 are infact listed beginning from Genesis.

We are told at the end of Chapter of Hebrews 11 that they died without *the promise*. Certainly not the promise of salvation, but the promise of the Holy Spiirt....regeneration, Born Again of the Spirit. So they were not so totally depraived as some would teach.

The fulfilling of the New Covenant, and the Promise of the Spirit promised in the New Covenant had to come into force, before the Blessings of Abraham could now come to the Gentiles. Paul goes very deep into this in Galatians, also covering Covenants.

The Everlasting Covenant was first revealed in Genesis 3:15. Within the Everlasting Covenant are other Covenants, subordinate to the Everlasting Covenant....yet all the while fulfilling the many Covenants that are subordinate.

One thing very interesting, is that those from Abel to the end of time SUFFER for their faith in Christ. Hebrews 11 is quite clear about those from Abel on, regardless of whether they were aware of other Covenants.

That was great Ginnyrose.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

I don't know how to answer your questions from individual scriptures, but I have gotten a pretty good idea of What Paul’s heart was. He said, he would die for his countryman, that is the Jew, his brethren. He also had a direct revelation from Jesus Christ about the new life of Christ in him. I see Paul in Hebrews trying to bring the two together. The individual salvation of the some he prayed to save of Israel and the elect of God in Christ Jesus, by his own Gospel he called "my gospel".

Good Morning Phillip,

May I suggest Paul did not write Hebrews, actually no one knows who did, so in all fairness that needs to be clearly established.

No where in Hebrews is there a reference to MY GOSPEL, however there is most assuredly the Mystery. Hebrews 10 is the most profound Chapter.

Crucified with Christ is the Mystery, because without it there is no Christ in you...correct?

Perfect in Christ is the Mystery, because Christ in you is what makes you perfect.

Sanctified once and for all is the Mystery correct, because our sanctification is only through Christ In You...Correct?

What do you suppose, through the veil, that is to say my flesh means?

What do you suppose a NEW AND LIVING WAY means?

In the Beginning of Acts, remember I said only Jews were saved at first (Cornelius was the first Gentile) and look what they, (Peter were so astonished at....that they(Gentiles) received the Holy Spirit. They were astonished!

Now Cornelius may actually have died before Paul completely unfolded the Mystery, but does that disqualify Cornelius as having Christ in him?

Absolutely not.

Because the Holy Spirit (Romans 6-8) is that Spirit that baptizes us into the Body of Christ to begin with.

When the Author of Hebrews is explaining Hebrews 3 & 4, do you actually believe they were talking about the physical land, or was that a type as well, referring to Ephesians, Entering in the Rest of God, through Jesus Christ.

Some of the most profound teaching of the Mystery is in fact NOW clearly understood by Born Again Jews and it is all rooted perfectly in Hebrews.

Paul did not preach a * MY GOSPEL* that is not rooted in these truths in Hebrews. Salvation [u][i]period[/i][/u] is OF the Jews. and how often,
Paul brings this to mind.

Anyone claiming to have a special revelation of any gospel apart from Hebrews is an accursed Gospel. There is nothing New and Different that God Gives to any man. God never made a covenant with Gentiles. Gentiles are partakers of the Covenants all ready put into place.

To drive this point home, Joseph Smith and many more have these *Special Gospels* they would like you to believe. Even the Bereans checked to make sure everything Paul said was true. What did they check with? Scripture I hope.

Also a point I would like to make is all Cults can be Identified through Hebrews. It is so impregnated by the Holy Spirit with truths so deep, you will never reach the bottom. They hate the Beginning of Hebrews, because it clearly shows Jesus was NOT an angel as they teach.

You may not understand Hebrews in all it's depth, but believe me:

When the warning of trampling underfoot the Son of God, Considering the Blood of the Covenant with witch they are sanctified an unholy thing, and insulting the Spirit of GRACE......

Wanting to go back to the old way of sacrifice for sin that could never make anyone PERFECT...has to do with TODAY, not future.

They are told TODAY is the day of Salvation.

The only life you have of Christ in you is that life that was laid upon an alter for the forgiveness of sin, RAISED UP, and it's that Risen Life ( Hebrews 13:20&21) that is Christ In YOU.

A New and Living Way..throught the veil, that is to say His Flesh (I am Crucified with Christ)....certainly not something Earthly Israel will be saying...correct?

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS, It is through the RISEN Lord Glorified that He can fulfill the remaining New Covenant promises to Earthly Israel when He takes the Throne of David. ;-)

Phillip, Part 2:

In Christ, a new Covenant for the Gentiles and all those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Just to entertain you notion for a moment that Paul wrote Hebrews, pleading with them , also suggesting that God made a *New* Covenant with Gentiles, how then do you explain the following scripture? Was Paul pleading with lost Israel to now be partakers of a *New* Covenant made with Gentiles? Would that not be boasting against the branches?

Why would Paul teach in Ephesians the Covenant*s* of promise given to Israel alone. There is no mention of a New Covenant made with Gentiles. This Covenant was made with Abraham…in thee shall all nations of the world be blessed. Paul uses these words in Galatians, unfolding the MYSTERY there as well.

We are told in Romans 11 not to be *ignorant* of this MYSTERY.

And if Paul is pleading with his Lost brethren to be part of this New Gentile Covenant why so much New Covenant speak here?

According to your definition of a New Gentile Covenant excluding the New Covenant, he doesn't seem to be pleading here at all. Hebrews I mean.

Romans 11:
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

In Christ, a new Covenant for the Gentiles and all those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Ephesians 2:
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Phillip,

Actually no one knows who wrote Hebrews. The Holy Spirit wrote it and that is all that matters.

Paul always opened his letters,

Paul, a servant

Paul and Apostle,

Paul and Timothy, as so on. Always opened with Paul. Even when someone else penned his letters, he qualified himself the author.

Paul’s last letter was in 67AD, 2nd Timothy , where he ends that his time is at hand. Paul was kept in chains in a Roman prison, knowing he was about to be beheaded , as he was in Rome in 67 AD.

2 Timothy 4:6
For I am now ready to be offered , and the time of my departure is at hand, I fought the good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith, henceforth there is now laid up for me a crown of righteousness……….

However Hebrews was written in 68 AD, with one tiny post script at the end of the chapter , Ch 13 VS18&19. Pray for US, for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly, But I beseech you rather to do this, that I may be restored to you sooner. ( was that Paul?? ) NO!

Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles, not to the Jews.

Paul through out all his letters opened up more fully the Gospel according to the Mystery.

This letter of Hebrews was written to Jews just prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, were warned to stay the course, run the race etc, etc, being edified through this letter, that Christ is now their High Priest, and no Temple was necessary. They came under great persecution at that time. This is why all Paul’s terminology concerning the Mystery is not used in Hebrews. However our calling is to run the course, and that we suffer persecution, and fellowship in His Sufferings, also clearly laid out in Hebrews .

Why is this point so important? For the same reason whosoever will is important. One must thoroughly search all facts , and not be blinded by others .

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Phillip #2,
Remember when I said Hebrews has so much depth you can't even get to the bottom.

Everything in the Tabernacle in the OT, was a picture of Christ, and Yes you can see the Church (Now you can) fully revealed.

God asked Moses to build it exactly after the pattern of things in Heaven. The MYSTERY was *behind the veil*. No one was allowed to go in except the High Priests, and they too had to offer a sacrifice for their sin before they could enter....only an earthly picture.

The Tabernacle, showbread, candlesticks, Aaron’s budding rod....all were a picture of Christ. The 10 Commandments reveal the perfect Holiness of God. The blood of bulls and goats offered could never make anyone perfect, therefore it was the perfect Holiness of God that kept them from all going behind the veil. When Christ died on the Cross, the Veil in the Temple also was rent, a Miracle and sign, signifying the way into the Holiest of Holies had been open for (who so ever will).

Jesus Christ perfectly kept the Law, every jot and tittle, and His very "Christ In You" now is what allows you to come boldly to the throne of Grace....behind the veil. It is the righteousness of Christ in you, Yes, written in your Heart, that is one of the mystery's. It is that New Heart given to the New Creature.

No one needs to teach us...know the Lord, in John 17 prayed that we may KNOW Him. Or that anyone need to teach you, "The Holy Spirit is our teacher". Paul even the Ephesians they were taught by Christ.

Your sins forgiven, New Covenant Promise....are you not forgiven. Peter tells us in 2 Peter, Have you forgotten your sins are forgiven you? Check yourselves and make sure you are in the faith.

But this behind the veil, our life In Christ, behind that veil, is our Heavenly Home. The Heavenly Jerusalem, Mt Sion, where the Church is ( Hebrews 12) In the beginning of Hebrews, they were reminded of their Heavenly Calling, not earthly calling.

Do you know all that is behind the veil? ALL? Well, John was a special vessel chosen by God and brought to see even more behind the veil, the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Look at all the imagery in Revelation pointing to the pattern of things made by Moses, now realized ...the visible, now has revealed the invisible. We get a glimpse of that through John's letter, more fully seeing the Mystery.

The Mystery consists of those who are a Perfect 7 ( there is that word again...perfect) In Christ and Christ in Them, contrasted to those who fell short ,the 6's. They never entered in. Many thought just standing in the outer court was enough. But we see, the outer court will be trampled, but those who entered in, within the temple and the alter, are safe.

Now we understand why it is so very important why Christ must be In You, and You in Him.

Never under-estimate the depth of Hebrews. It goes even deeper then this.

Happy Thanks Giving
Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Ezekiel 33:11
Turn now, turn now, for why will ye die, saith the Lord. Behold, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked

2 Peter 3:9
God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

Ezekiel 3:18
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thine hand.

If everyone who winds up in hell were supposed to go to hell no matter what then why did God tell Ezekiel this? Why does Ezekiel have to be responsible for someone going to hell because he didn't warn him/her?

But isn't it wonderful that faith comes by hearing, not by works, which then would have to be measured at the end to see if it was enough.

Itn't it wonderful God gave us ears to hear, first speaking through the prophets, and now in these last days SPOKE to us through His Son.

Did you hear? How beautiful are the feet of those who Speak the Truth that ALL may hear. Go ye into all the world did not Jesus say!! All may not believe what they her, that is quite another matter.

Have they not heard? quotes Paul. Absolutely they did Quotes Paul.

Katy

Yes Chris, you wrote:

Hi ChrisJD,

My first thought is , from Adam to Moses, although sin was not imputed to them, however knowing and seeing the Glory of God, turned that glory into worshiping the creature more then the creator. Now , Moses to Christ, having the revealed Glory of God, the Holiness of God revealed to them, through Law and the Prophets, also failed. Why? NOW God can declared *ALL* have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Now where sin abounded Grace did so much more abound. Now Comes Jesus Christ full of Grace and truth, now come the New Covenant, New Testament declared to ALL. Oh the ways of God are unsearchable aren’t they?

Romans 11:18
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

I also would like to bring to mind at the end of Ezekiel, that God promised to make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Now we don't want to keep living in the OT, but here in the New. Of which Jesus *is* ( present tense) mediator of the New Covenant, A message of Life not death. What a great God we have. A message that says, I will put my fear in you that you will not depart from me. Wow. What a Good News Message that is. Are Gentiles now included in this message, in this hope? According to Paul in Ephesians 2, Gentiles are now partakers of the Covenants of Promise.

Maybe the times have changed, but the character of God Never Changes, the same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. We preach life not death, Forgiveness, not condemnation.

I've always been so curious about out those who wan to boast of their election, rather then boast in the Lord.

When Paul preached the Gospel, his boasting was in the Lord, not his election.

2 Corinthians 11:10
As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.

There seem to be a reverse lately, boasting in the *me myself and I am God's elect gospel.
That Gospel is accursed!

Do you remember your "first love" after you got saved? Mine was and has always been to share the Gospel with the Lost. Now that I think of it, Paul, immediately upon his salvation went into the Temple and preached that Jesus was indeed the Son of God. The first words out of His mouth.

I also find it interesting that he hoped to provoke some to jealousy, hoping to save some. Just think, provoking some to jealousy. Probably to stir up within them conviction through his testimony and *Boasting* in God's amazing Grace….not Law!….Not Election…………………………..

We are saved by Grace through faith , not by faith through Grace. Can you see the difference.

The Gift if Jesus Christ, not faith!!

Proverbs 25:14
Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

Psalm 34:2
My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
( Would the humble be glad at the Gospel of exclusion?)

Acts 5:36
For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.

(Be very careful what you too boast of.)

Paul too never seemed to have lost his first love, proclaiming the Gospel, not his election, right up to his death, continually teaching Christ in you, the Hope of Glory. If he preached the Gospel of election, I imaging the Church would have died out very shortly , unless his message was Election much more abounded. Paul clarifies Grace. Shall we continue to sin that Grace may abound? God Forbid. Therefore we know Grace is not a gospel that the elect can sin, or that that is what Grace means at all. Thank goodness he put that thought to rest.

He said, be ye followers of me, the way I am of Christ, Preaching the Gospel unto death.

Did Jesus preach the Gospel? He IS the Gospel. Nothing could have been heard more loud and clear as John 3:14-17. And of coarse His actions were louder then words.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

******Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

:-)

Logic asked:

Knowing that the Lamb was slain(the atonement) from before the foundation of the world(Rev 13:8).

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Everything in the Old was also written for US. They were and example for us...this is also stated by Paul.

When all came out of Egypt, ALL came out under the Blood, simply ALL. but not all went into the Promise land….the Hope of their calling. That was not by election, but by faith...they didn't enter into the PROMISE.....the finishing touch, the ultimate goal .

Now Jesus died for all, and his Blood is and has made a way for ALL to enter into the ****Finished work of Christ****, not the groundwork of Christ.

Not all will enter in, nor did all enter in, as it says in Hebrews 3&4. You see we are SAVED by His risen Life, the Finished Work of Christ, the resurrection side of the Cross. Life comes out of death, and we enter into the risen Life of Christ. A picture speaks a thousand words. Can you see this picture here the Author of Hebrews is trying to get across. The Author is not calling US to a physical land to possess, but a place we possess, within the veil, Hebrews 6:19
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Just as those who didn't *enter in*, for lack of faith, many today are stuck in the wilderness as well, and will die there in their sin. Jesus Christ became sin for us, our Passover that brings us out of the world, for the ultimate purpose of bringing us into the Promise of our Life in Him, and He in Us.
Hebrews 6:18
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

What is this Hope?

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

John 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17 is a snapshot of the Mystery. To share His Glory, to be Glorified together with Him. The Glory was in the Rest, His rest, His FINISHED Work. John 17: 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I love how the author of Hebrews uses this to explain what True salvation is. and to exclude the thought of limited atonement. ALL came out under the Blood, but all did not go in to Possess the Promise....Saved by His Life, His risen Life. The Finishing touches...His finished work. The Risen Christ in you...the Hope of Glory.

To say that those who did not enter in were blind to these facts is silly. Why would they keep asking Moses, " Are you lost...do you really know the way?
Are we blind to these facts? No, but many leaders today are lost and don’t know the way at all. They want to keep you Egypt bound, you know, the best of both worlds. The “ You can have your cake and eat it too Gospel. Or the, Oh Sorry, only the Elect can have these things, because only we can see. ( Many don’t even see these things!)

But this is the Gospel, the absolute TRUTH of the Gospel, and Paul did not make it a secret.

Colossians 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

The older had their chance and blew it in the provocation. Paul warns us as well that was for our understanding and edification.

How many today professing to be saved, have in fact denied the cross...I am crucified with Christ. He’s bringing you into the resurrection side and you wine and complain all the way….suffer, not me!, Lose all for Christ….not me. Leave those riches in Egypt behind….not me! There’s giants in the land…..too big for us….nope, not going over there!

They want salvation without identification. That is not salvation. Life comes out of death (Romans 6-8). as Paul also instructed the Galatians, when he said, I am crucified with Christ, Crucified to the World and the world crucified to me. Egypt wasn't the promise any more then the wilderness was the finished work.
Christ is our Promise Land, and the land we survey is the length, breadth, depth and height of our Life in Christ , as He stretches us to the fullness by His life in us. Ephesians 3.

Do you know the hope of His Calling?
Have you been stretched lately? Do you have any stretch Marks? Do you bear in your body the Marks of the Lord Jesus? That’s the difference between head knowledge and the real thing.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

Good Morning ChrisJD,

"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly."

I believe he did, in John 8, before Abraham was I AM.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

Isn't that wonderful. It is interesting about those going to the promise land. "My sheep" happened to be a whole new generation. Only two, from the original group Joshua and Caleb were I guess " My Sheep".

But one thing we do know, once they crossed over, no one ran back to Egypt. No one wanted to go back and live in the desert either. The Land of Milk and Honey was beyond their wildest imagination. Of coarse they had to conquer the Land too...driving out all those "ites".

Joshua, a type of Christ (Jesus)led the way.

I will go before you and drive out from among you the "ites".

To me, a type of election people teach would be, that only certain people in Egypt would have put blood on the door post, ( God's Elect) and they would have found themselves translated immediately to the Promised Land through no faith, responsibility, or legs to follow on their own.

No learning to live from Faith to faith, as the Lord led the way. Yet we do find a story of someone who disobeyed, taking a spoil, that caused enormous grief to Israel, and to his family. The battle of Ai. Even there, the Lord did not give Joshua the command to go in the first place as he did previously in all the other victories!

So very much we can learn from these things.
My Sheep ***hear*** my voice.......

[u][b]and they follow me![/b][/u] we must never forget the last part, Hearers or doers? Only the doers are the true sheep. Jesus tells the apostles in Matthew 19….those who follow me into the regeneration will I ……………………………..! you read the rest. Doesn't sound like they were previously regenerated to follow does it? If so, no such comment would have been made.

Seems to me obedience of faith plays a part here…..*Obedience* of Faith.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

I so love this first one… I will make you ***fishers of men***.

Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u], and I will make you fishers of men.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u].

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u].

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u], is not worthy of me.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u], in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u].

Mark 10:21
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u].

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u].

Luke 18:22
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u].

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u] shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u]:

John 12:26
If any man serve me, let him [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u]; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

John 13:36
Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u]now; but thou shalt [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u] afterwards.

John 21:19
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u].

Acts 12:8
And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and [u][i][b]*Follow Me*[/b][/i][/u].

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Paul gave his life unto death following Christ, to be one of the greatest FISHERS of Men!

Where did he fish? In the sea. Revelation tells us exactly about the ***sea***.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Revelation 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Don't you want to start fishing some out before it's too late?

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

ChrisJD,

God deals with men through Covenants. He sovereignty is through these covenants.

You confuse the meaning of sovereignty, and apply it to God's whimsy to just pick and choose His Elect because He is sovereign to do so. That is a total abuse of the whole understanding of Sovereignty. The Sovereignty of God is through dealing with men through these Covenants.
Some were conditional, and some are not.

If it were His sovereignty as you say, no such Covenants would need be laid, for one thing.

The foundation Paul laid in Romans 11, he tells you not to be *ignorant of this mystery*.... and would not be necessary to explain, or foundation laid.

If you discount this as true, then I would suggest those who do are barking up the wrong tree, and are not part of the root to begin with.

Many false gospels are identified because they have no root, or they believe themselves to be a new and different, totally separated root all their own called the elect, based on a mystery not rooted and grounded in the foundation Paul laid out through out all his epistles..

I would be most careful not to follow this kind of doctrine. Joseph Smith also claimed to have his new and different Gospel, a secret select few, under a new covenant totally severed from the Covenants established from the foundation of the world.

Another interesting point is, Joseph Smith grew up in the NE among the Calvinists and is believed to have gotten many if his ideas from Calvinism.

One thing too they have in common is that big EYE, staring down at them from the ceiling.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

ChrisJD,

I would like to add more to the last statement.

When the Puritans came to America and other places in the world, they believed themselves to be God's NEW Chosen People, and America God's NEW Promise Land. (The Light and the Glory, by Peter Marshall). Totally missing the point that our Promise Land is in Christ, not land or dominionism.

They broke off from the root of truth Romans 11, and that God never made any NEW Covenants with Gentiles.

Well, Joseph Smith did that exact thing too, establishing a New Gospel based on his mystery revelations of the *New City on the Hill*....Dominionism.

Many Puritan Calvinists, broke from Calvinism and converted to Mormonism. Each in their own way believes themselves to be God's New Chosen People, with no root or foundation for either. If they ( the Puritans were in fact rooted in the foundational truths of Paul’s teaching, they would have been rooted and grounded In Christ, and the truths. Because they had no root, these ELECT unelected themselves. hummmmmm…… called Apostasy. We see this happening in massive numbers today…defecting that is, to a dominion Theology, trying to mingle truth with lie. As you probably see all ready, many reformed Churches have replaced the cross with the flag.

When Paul tells us in Ephesians 3, to be rooted and grounded and that we would know the length, depth, width and height, how interesting that is to when Abraham surveyed the land......

We don't inherit teh physical land, but teh Spiritual Land, as ephesians is talking about growing up into all the fulness of Jesus Christ.

The doctrine itself is not identical, but many similarities in mentality....the emperor with no cloths if you know what I mean! Mystery Babylon, wearing all the same clothing as the High Priest, Jesus Christ, yet there is one color missing....blue.....which means heavenly.

Hope that helps!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

"You confuse the meaning of sovereignty, and apply it to God's whimsy to just pick and choose His Elect because He is sovereign to do so."

Good Morning ChrisJD,

No not you directly, but this is the main word many if not all use as their argument for election, and that man does not have free choice, or can choose, because God's **Sovereignty** will has not only elected some to heaven but elected the rest to hell.

The whole foundation of their argument is God's Sovereignty.

I believe **God's Word** is sovereign, and that God cannot lie, deceive, or use duplicity. If scripture clearly says, Whosoever Will, along with many other scriptures that it is God's will that all should come to repentance( however free choice means not all will) then God's Word is Sovereign.

One makes it sound as though God is snickering behind the scenes winking at the angels saying, Oh, if they only knew it is just a big joke and that I really never wanted them anyway...I just want them to THINK I do......( That's duplicity....dishonest, and to accuse God of such behavior is appalling...yet they continue to do so out of their own ignorance of ALL scripture they have not learned how to rightly divide.

This all was in reference to Logic's original question that God elected some to heaven and the rest to hell. No questions asked....God's sovereignty has made it so.

Well, that's what I call abuse of the use of the words *God's Sovereignty*. And this and this alone, is the weapon of choice in their argument. That somehow the sovereignty of God and man's free choice are in conflict. Comparing apples to oranges. We need to compare scripture to scripture......all of it, not just some of it to come to a reasonable conclusion.

No this was not directed to you personally.

Have a great day in the Lord!

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

ChrisJD,

I couldn't agree more. Faith has nothing to do with feelings, and it is dangerous to allow feelings to cloud faith. Faith is taking God at His word, because it is impossible for God to lie in any way shape or form. That in itself leaves personal feelings out of the equation all together.

I believe many Calvinists confuse the sanctification process with our initial faith in Christ. Being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ, being changed from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord is something only the Lord can do. This is the evidence that one has truly received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to begin with. When we surrender our lives to Him, this work begins with our cooperation by the Holy Spirit that indwells. This is Sanctification.

In Acts 5 I believe, the Gospel was preached to Jews who were told to repent and upon doing so, out of that obedience they would receive the Holy Spirit. Now with no emotions what so ever in the way, taking scripture at it word, repentance comes before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. ALL instances in Acts have clearly made that fact **a fact**, not an emotion of how one feels about the order in which God works.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

Added for content
Acts 17:29-31

29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

[u][i]30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.[/i][/u]

You see, it says here God has given assurence to ALL MEN that He raised Jesus from the dead.....it's no secret.

It is because of man's rejection of these truths that God's wrath and judgement will take it's final course. Men are judged all ready because of Adam's sin, and the Gift of receiving life back from the dead through Jesus Christ offered to all who will come to receive will be why someone goes to heaven or hell, not because they were appointed to it without a way of escape.

WOW! and Here is the evidence:

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

The Holy Spirit of Promise.......

Holy Spirit convicts of sin and then through God's intervention believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved can occur, then repentance is true and accomplishes what God intends

Jesus said, My Words are Spirit and they are Life.

I think sometimes we underestimate the POWER of the Word of God, who Hebrews says is Living and Powerful and sharper then a two edge sword.

Yes, if our words are not empowered by the Holy Spirit when we preach the gospel, of coarse no salvation will accompany that conviction.

One must know and accept they are a sinner. Now that we have the Law, the Perfect Holiness of God, and have the Word that sin...now defined through the Law convicts of sin. Now we come to the Savior, the Gospel of Grace who once convicted of sin, can find healing from the penalty of sin.

The Law is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

Thank you Lord you didn't leave one stone unturned when it comes to man's accountability and have not left us in the dark as to what sin is, the consequences of sin, and the forgiveness of sin, that comes through Jesus Christ alone.

Even Nineveh had the law written in their conscience and repented at the preaching of Jonah. They knew in their inner most being they were sinners and displeased God. No regeneration took place in Nineveh. But you can bet Jonah preached with the power of the Holy Spirit upon him.

Praise you Lord!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

"""Even Nineveh had the law written in their conscience and repented at the preaching of Jonah. They knew in their inner most being they were sinners and displeased God. No regeneration took place in Nineveh. But you can bet Jonah preached with the power of the Holy Spirit upon him"""

And Philip you said,

Was this not God's direct intervention?

However Here is what God really Said:

Luke 11:32
The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.

What is Jesus Saying here? He's saying that He does not FORCE repentance on anyone, nor does he interfere with the free will of men to choose life or choose death, but in fact will hold men accoutable for their own actions, whether they obey his voice or not.

Actually Jonah was rather miffed that they did repent and that God did not destroy Nineveh (at that time).

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Romans 7 is a most interesting chapter. There is debate as to whether Paul was saved here or if this was before he got saved.

To me it doesn't matter, because if those who say this was before conversion as many Calvinists do, then the theory of total depravity just flies right out the window. And if one says it's after Paul's conversion, it clearly shows teh saint has two natures, one of the Old, and one of the New. Paul goes through great strugggle finally saying, Oh Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death. I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord. NOW Paul understands that to walk in the Spirit does not give way to the flesh, our old adam nature. He realizes that Adam 1 ended at Calvary.

Either way you look at it, it shows that the LAW is what convicts men of sin and their need for Jesus Christ, whether before their saved or after they are saved.

Romans 7
1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Who sent Jonah, and used the King to get the people to repent instead of Jonah?

Phillip, have you ever read the book of Jonah? The words **repent** are not there, nor were those in Nineveh ASKED to repent. Johan never said, and *if you repent*...... it's not there.

Jonah, was a Calvinist, who did not want to preach to the lost. God absolutely rebukes Jonah at the end and says, " You cry over a gourd....and you are angry with me because I had mercy on over 6,000 people. Jonah was furious with God.....why? Because God showed mercy to those who out of their OWN Conscience repented without even being asked to repent. Jonah only preached judgement period. When that judgement didn't come...he was bent out of shape.

That story will also be what God will use on those who do not warn and preach to the Lost...believe me. Because we are commissioned to do so.....period!!!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

First let me start with what God says about Himself:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Notice that God does not change. So let's see what He has said and we can know that He has not changed:

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

This would be a ridicules statement if God were the one to choose who lived and who died and nothing they did made any difference. The following passage would also be ridicules:

Amos 4:6-10 6 "I gave you empty stomachs in every city and lack of bread in every town, yet you have not returned to me, declares the LORD. 7 "I also withheld rain from you when the harvest was still three months away. I sent rain on one town, but withheld it from another. One field had rain; another had none and dried up. 8 People staggered from town to town for water but did not get enough to drink, yet you have not returned to me, declares the LORD. 9 "Many times I struck your gardens and vineyards, I struck them with blight and mildew. Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees, yet you have not returned to me, declares the LORD. 10 "I sent plagues among you as I did to Egypt. I killed your young men with the sword, along with your captured horses. I filled your nostrils with the stench of your camps, yet you have not returned to me, declares the LORD."

If God chooses and not man, then it would make no difference that God gave them empty stomachs, etc... This passage shows how God calls and draws people back to Him, yet if you believe Calvinism that makes no sense at all.

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Jesus clearly says in this passage that the people themselves made the decision, that He had longed to gather them, but they were not willing. Again that is a ridicules statement if God is the one who chooses.

Joshua 24:14-15 14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." This passage is just a cruel joke unless the people really had a choice in the matter.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Ezekiel 33:10-11 10 "Son of man, say to the house of Israel, 'This is what you are saying: "Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live?"' 11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

Again if man has no choice in the matter at all then God must be lying in these two passages because He declares that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn and live.

Here is another thing to think about. Why didn't Jonah want to go to Nineveh? He did not want to go because he knew that if they repented God would forgive them. Or in other words he knew that they had free will and could choose to repent and God would forgive them.

Let's see what God says about who He loves:

Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me. This passage shows choice, because love is a choice. God says He loves those who love Him, not just those He has chosen to love.

John 3:16-18 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Now Calvinist will try to twist that passage to say that God loves only the elect, but that is not what it says. It says that God loves the world.

You said you have heard that God doesn't love you and does not want you to be saved. I hope you all ready know that He does love you.

Calvinists use this verse ....John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

A Calvinist say, see that means that God chooses. I believe it shows just the opposite.

Here's why... You are worried that God might not love you so you won't be able to be saved. Why are you worried? If God chooses and you have nothing to do with it, then you would not even care. The very fact that you want God to love you and want to be saved proves that God has drawn you. If He haden't, you wouldn't care one way or the other.

But what about those who don't want to be saved? Has God drawn them too or does this come down to the idea of God choosing some and rejecting others.

I think we can get our answer by looking at Jewish tradition. After all, scripture is written with the Jewish mind and Jewish tradition. irstly, Jesus called Himself our Bridegroom. This means alot to the Jewish people. Maybe not to Gentiles. Now look at a Jewish wedding ceremony. The Bridegroom holds up a cup of wine to his Bride. This is his offer of marriage. The Bride cannot make him offer it, she has to wait until he chooses to offer it to her. Once the Bridegroom holds out the cup of wine it is up to the Bride if she takes it or not. If she takes the cup, she is saying she wants to be his wife, if she does not take the cup she is rejecting his offer. Christ is holding out the cup of salvation to us, but it is up to us to either choose to take it or reject it. He has held out thios cup to the whole world, and now it is up to the world to either take it or reject it....one soul at a time.

Those that take the cup have accepted what He offered to them, but in a very real sense He choose them, because He held out the cup by His own love and grace. Take the cup and rejoice in your Bridegroom, He is holding the cup out for you, you just need to come in faith and humility admitting that you are a sinner in need of a Savior.

Another example is when a Bride was gotten for Isaac. No one went busting down any doors and dragging Rebecca out by the hair. An offer of a bracelet was held out. It was Rebecca's choice.

Now look what happened to Diana, the sister of Judah, Ruben and the sons of Jacob,.....she was taken against her will, and her brothers said she had been defiled.

To be forced into marriage is not how God works, even arranged marriages had the final say of the bride with the blessings of the family.

Tamar was subjected to a sick love of her half brother. Called rape!

It's the woman who surrenders her love and body to her husband....it's never taken in force or against the will. God does NOT force His love on anyone. (Yet I understand Calvinist husbands think otherwise and believe they own their wives). Hummmmmm!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hi Katy,

You've posted more since I began writing this reply... so just bear that in mind please. I haven't yet read your last two posts.

You are a constant source of new angles on truth. Thank you.

have you ever read the book of Jonah? The words **repent** are not there, nor were those in Nineveh ASKED to repent. Johan never said, and *if you repent*...... it's not there.

Acts 17
30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
31 "because He has appointed a day on which [u]He will judge the world[/u] in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Actually, I've been thinking about how there is a general deterioration in mankind's physical and mental strength. You see it in our dependence on medicine, and you see it in the diminishing ability to think logically or even remember stuff.... I mean, how many of us - let alone a stalwart contingent of a whole nation - would have a hope of remembering Genesis word for word? When I think about it, Moses wasn't even being brought up with the rest of the Hebrews and may have learned most of it as an adult. Maybe he realised that the pleasures of Egypt had addled the brains of the people, and much would be lost for ever if it was not recorded in a substantial and objective manner.

Getting back to the matter of 'free will', Katy, philologos says this is not a scriptural concept. The word is 'desire'. If you think about this (as well as try to find a scripture which uses the concept of 'free will') what you'll end up with (I think) is that people get what they want. So preaching does two things at least, which depend on human faculties placed in our natural make-up by God, in His image.... Thus, the word of truth can be recognised as truth, [i]and[/i] stimulates [u]desire[/u] in the hearer to associate itself with the benefits of residing in that truth.

Jonah only preached judgement period. When that judgement didn't come...he was bent out of shape.

That story will also be what God will use on those who do not warn and preach to the Lost.

Hi Dorcas,

How often Paul reminds us we are called to be ambassadors for Christ, We have been given the Gospel of reconciliation, and so on. How anyone could miss this is beyond me.

I've often wondered why Calvinists open their mouth at all. If not to witness, then is it just to boast and stick out their tongue. What they are really doing is slandering God’s Character.

One scripture God really placed on my heart concerning this is in the Psalms,

“Woe to those who stand in the way of sinners and sit in the seat of the scornful“

If that doesn't describe the Calvinist theology and the attitudes that follow those so died in that brain washing I don't know what does. How Satan is still wrecking havoc and hoping to keep as many as possible.

We're called to witness whether we like it or not, and the rest is God's business really isn't it. God said , If you love me you will OBEY me. Well, witnessing is being obedient to God’s KNOWN will. It doesn’t get any simpler then that…..however, the evidence one has been truly Born Again is manifest in the FACT that we can’t keep our mouths shut about so Awesome a God there is, How merciful a God we have, and we want everyone to Know it , because our hearts desire is to see them saved as well……not a hearts desire to boast that WE are special and they are not…that is the most horrible thing….worse than the Word of Faith Group. However Satan will mock God’s word and His heart any way he can…he knows he has just a short time to do it.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Jonah 3:7-10 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Yes Philip, It was the King who called for this, he wasn't told to do this by Jonah.
If Johah had done it then he wouldn't have gone off and pouted.

Jonah was angry because he preached God would destroy Nineveh in 40 days...God did not destroy,and Johah got angry.( I guess his reputation was more important than souls) The Lord rebukes him in the end and that is that.

It's a very Good lesson to all of us not to play God or think we know God's mind or heart in matters of God's heart, lovingkindness and MERCY.

In a way it can be likened to the "doctrine of Balaam". You know balaam was hired (hirling) to prophecy a curse against Israel because of their disobedience. People tend to underestimate God, and the higher power of the Cross. Can you imagine being rebuked by a jack ass!!! What a humbling experience.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hi Phillip,

I agree with your comment, that if

turn every one from his evil way

Katy,

Surely

turn every one from his evil way

Isaiah 30:21
And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This [i]is[/i] the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

To do that - to stop going the way one is going, turn around and go the way the voice is directing - is [i]repentance[/i]. It's a picture.

I thought this would be of interest to all.

Jeremiah 18:7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

turn every one from his evil way

means repent! Doesn't it? I think you are being too literal, to say Jonah did not ask Nineveh to repent. I know he mentioned other things like sackcloth and ashes, but his use of the word 'turn' is what repentance is all about.

Absolutely Dorcas, Turn ye, turn ye, turn ye..

Repentance is turning towards God. It's
making a complete turn.

But according to that last verse I just posted in Jeremiah, it's man's responsibility to repent.

To think that men are meer robots or puppets on a string and God is just entertaining Himself, playing paper dolls and making up each person's script is rediculous.

And to suggest one has to be regenerated first before one can repent is not found here, as no one was regenerated (Born Again of the Spirit) in the OT.

Even my dog has a conscience of right and wrong...how much more we are than a animal.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Let's remember, These are the Kings words, Not Jonah's. I said Jonah never mentioned repentance or said repent.....

If these were Jonah's words, Jonah would not have gotten angry with God for having mercy.

7And he( The King) caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

[u]9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? [/u]

The King here is including himself (WE), saying maybe God will turn and repent and turn away his anger.

Jeremiah certainly says He does.

10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Katy,

I see you are hanging on for dear life to a mission around the demolition of Calvinism. I almost qualified that with the adjective 'American', for even your moderate expression of the thesis, is extreme by UK standards. Probably it was exported from Scotland some time ago, but it is barely understood and little discussded over here these days.

To think that men are meer robots or puppets on a string and God is just entertaining Himself, playing paper dolls and making up each person's script is rediculous.

Hi Dorcas,

Many people believe they are Calvinists simply because they believe in OSAS or Eternal Security, and this seems to be the only way they can prove they will not lose their salvation. However, when the in-depth of what Calvinism believes is explained, the comment is,,,OH No, I don't agree with that at all.

Also many believe you have to be on one side or the other, Calvinism vs Armenians, and if your not an Armenian then you MUST be a Calvinist. This too is also a misconception.

Yes, and Hyper Calvinism (Gnostic Calvinism) is really on the rise here, and many Churches are claiming it to be a Church wrecker.

Reformed Theology has been through so many face lifts and nose jobs it's not funny. Starting with Augustine a known Gnostic all the way down to Carl Barth, and will probably go through more Changes.

Oh My, the doctrines of men!!!

However, the Bible never needs to go through any transformations of doctrine what so ever.

Those who only tip toe through the tulips are limited to a select plot of ground, where as those who go to Genesis - Revelation cover so much more.

Even here the SBC is in great division over this doctrine for some time.

It is a big deal, because it is a lie. When John 3:16 is represented correctly, all the other petals of the tulip have no chance to survive.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

:-)

Chris, you asked

Is this in refrence to Isaiah 45:11?

James also said:

"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

- Acts chapter 15 verse 18(KJV)

Is man going to obey God?

Is man going to seek God?

Is man going to depend on God?

And how does man react when his disobedience or the sinfulness of others attracts a pronouncement from God of imminent destruction or captivity?

We have heard it asked by some, why do we have to pray at all, if God knows what we need and what we want. The answer always seems to be that it is man who will gain something from the exercise of seeking His face. It is part of being in relationship with Him.

So, in answer to your questions[

What do you mean by change His mind? Do you mean that God did something He did not plan to do before? Or something else perhaps?

But when we ask Him for something, such as not to destroy a city, or to provide in some way, He allows us to go through that process for what it will work in us of godly care for His will, and godly care of others, and, we will be blessed when we discover He has heard and answered our petitons - which He always knew He would. :-)

Hi Chris,

I get the sense it is as if they are being rebuked for questioning what God is doing in regards to them. But not to command.

What do you think?

Edit: I mean to say not being told to command.

I had the impression he was clear on the Hebrew, which is something I cannot check.

I did not feel he was manufacturing a balance that doesn't exist elsewhere in scripture - again drawing on the necessity of the object of God's desire (Israel) being free to reject His wooings (although they are regularly judged when they do reject them), as much as engage with Him.

I checked what Strong's says and it's not clearer. Neither is Young's. The NASB chooses a completely different form of words, but the NKJV and KJV keep with the concept of 'command' - which keeps alive God's hope of a relationship with man.

I honestly know from how far from Him I once was, that it really is possible to keep saying 'no' to God, and He just gets further and further away. It isn't difficult to believe He knows who will turn back, but He is well prepared for us not to come to ourselves until we're in the not-so-proverbial pig-pen.

The more I have no other desire but to know Him more, the more I respect that way of His dealing with man. Because if we don't [i]want[/i] that relationship, why would we be faithful... as is so much in the history of man's relationship with Him?

""But when we ask Him for something, such as not to destroy a city, or to provide in some way, He allows us to go through that process for what it will work in us of godly care for His will, and godly care of others, and, we will be blessed when we discover He has heard and answered our petitons - which He always knew He would""

What is really interesting about Nineveh is that it was eventually destroyed, and the second warning some years later they did not repent.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did