Another Minister Spending Habits Exposed

Spending raises questions.......This is a Pastor of a very large church in San Antonio

A reporter did contact several longtime church members upset by some of Godwin's spending habits, but they said they have felt intimidated to say so publicly.

Godwin wouldn't grant requests for an interview with a San Antonio Express-News reporter about church finances, including his travel and gifts, so it's unknown whether he has reimbursed the church for any of these expenses or accounted for them as compensation, in keeping with the 2005 audit recommendation

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA111807.01A.church.2a4b302

WOW, sorry, sure is maybe this will work

http://www.mysanantonio.com/

San Antonio Express-News is the name of the newspaper

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/religion/stories/MYSA111807.01A.church.2a4b302.html

Greetings in Jesus' Name dear saints by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

it seems the recent revelations of instability in the U.S. economy/markets given the write downs of major financial companies due to the subprime mess, the fact that China is looking to further diversify its forex holdings to "stronger currencies" as the dollar weakens is set to do a number on us in short order. i have no idea how many billions of dollars the fed has printed to keep this thing afloat but if you want an idea of what having too much paper in the economy or can do, look at mexico and Zimbabwe...The prosperity gospel is about to be undone and i believe there are going to be a lot of angry people as a result...

things such as this ought to not surprise us, but i believe the greater thing to do, or what is required of us is to examine ourselves all the more closely to ensure that we are as clean as can be. it's easy to go off on a tear about this shady things but let's have God check us and cleanse us lest we be found to be worse than these...

God cleanse us.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.

What if our spending habits were exposed brethren? This coming weekend we kick off the biggest buying day of the year; a day referred to by some retailers as "black friday" because of the feeding frenzy.

Soon we will be celebrating the birth of the one who told us that life does not consist in the abundance of possessions, by loading our automobiles with possessions. (Not to mention loading our credit cards as well.)

Don't do it!

MC

The prosperity gospel is about to be undone and i believe there are going to be a lot of angry people as a result...

Hi Ironman,

I think there will be alot of HURTING, DISILLUSIONED people out there who will need compassion and truth in love. I have seen the damage done from the Church without Walls ministry of Randy/Paula White. When the divorce news broke, all the spending habits of the two was also exposed and many, many who gave to that ministry were so very hurt.

All of us need to speak the truth about these "wolves" among us who teach that Godliness is gain, but we also need to walk in compassion, knowing that many have been deceived by such. When they are exposed many are hurt..........some blame God. They need brothers and sisters around to love and assure them it was not God who let them down, but fallen man/woman who did not seek after the things of God, but the things of the flesh.......

Amen here

...walk in compassion

We might remember that many who have followed the prosperity teachings, are not wealthy to begin. The propsperity Gospel does not attract just the middle and upper classes. Many people who are attracted to this promise are struggling already. For these superstitous people, their only mistake is the thought that these teachers might have some kind of spiritual solution to the crippling financial struggles in their lives. When poverty holds onto you like a spiritual curse, it's not so hard to believe there is a spiritual cure.

Yet how is it that poor and destitute people believe they have something to bargain with? All it takes to work their mojo is to pull the levers and turn the knobs of the pernicious bi-covenental gospel that Doracs mentioned. So we must be clear in our own Gospel, that there are no levers and knobs and that only bankrupt people need apply for grace..and then enjoy the life of Jesus without condemnation.

If we ourselves are not resting in richness of God's grace, we might be tempted to sell forgiveness for at least an emotional price. Yet consider how even misplaced anger can actually reinforce their misguided hope in prosperity; if God can judge them materially according to their behavior then doesn't that prove the theory that he can bless them materially too?

So when we issue forth specific condemnation we should be careful that it does not come from the force of our own spirit or we might very well deepen their confusion. Afterall, many of these people have never really grasped the Gospel! The deliverance for me was not my changing of behavior. Only when I dispaired in the utter futility of trying to please God in my own nature, and surrendered under the unfolding realization of my total condemnation, did I begin to finally see those first piercing rays of light that was the glory of the Gospel.

It is not their greed or avarice that condemns them...but their whole unnacounted sin. Likewise, it is not their 'repentence' that abates holy wrath, but it is the unfailing love of God, hung on an undeserved cross, that set's man free from his bargaining superstition. Now as long as there remains some notion of good in them, they still might have a chance to get something good and not something bad according to their behavior. But Divine Grace spares no illusions kept alive, offers no humanistic comfort that there is useful goodness abiding naturally in even the most hopeful religous person.

And after this inward collapse of man's spiritual economy, hasn't God embraced the humble bankrupt Christian, regardless of past debts and defaults, into his abundant heart? Then likewise, we must learn to encourage one another freely, and leave the blessing/cursing bargaining to the prosperity wolves. What we have been given isn't earned or merited...and so it isn't for sale or trade even for emotional currency.

MC

Read through this yesterday and felt that where the similar discussion on the US senators investigation had me keying in perhaps on one aspect, namely not passing on things by what amounts to here-say, a sort of pragmatism that clouds integrity .... It still fell short of emphasis on what this whole industry is up to. I mean that by way of not so much a collective effort but by a shared philosophy and teaching, a strip mining of the scriptures and the sheer damage being done in the name of God.

It didn't take long to go back into reflection and recall the mechanisms and contortions, yes sheer manipulation that I was once somewhat bound up in, have another word in mind, but first a note;

We might remember that many who have followed the prosperity teachings, are not wealthy to begin. The propsperity Gospel does not attract just the middle and upper classes. Many people who are attracted to this promise are struggling already. For these superstitous people, their only mistake is the thought that these teachers might have some kind of spiritual solution to the crippling financial struggles in their lives. When poverty holds onto you like a spiritual curse, it's not so hard to believe there is a spiritual cure.

Yet how is it that poor and destitute people believe they have something to bargain with? All it takes to work their mojo is to pull the levers and turn the knobs of the pernicious bi-covenental gospel that Doracs mentioned. So we must be clear in our own Gospel, that there are no levers and knobs and that only bankrupt people need apply for grace..and then enjoy the life of Jesus without condemnation.

Right there is the crux of it. Without a doubt being a fairly new Christian and also a conveniently struggling self employed businessman (a contradiction, businessman I was not, hence the difficulties) there was a great taking advantage of both my gullibility on the one hand, which, make no doubt about it was my own fault and also a complete abuse of a new found faith. This is what the recollection brings back and the indignation begins stirring again.

It shouldn't be difficult to imagine that fresh converts often show far more an earnest faith at the beginning than some of us who have been perhaps beaten down a bit by trials or been ... indoctrinated into a sleepy slumber by accepting what is being forced fed into our lazy thinking without question ... many reasons could be noted.
But it is a diabolical thing this ...

think there will be alot of HURTING, DISILLUSIONED people out there who will need compassion and truth in love. I have seen the damage done from the Church without Walls ministry of Randy/Paula White. When the divorce news broke, all the spending habits of the two was also exposed and many, many who gave to that ministry were so very hurt.

All of us need to speak the truth about these "wolves" among us who teach that Godliness is gain, but we also need to walk in compassion, knowing that many have been deceived by such. When they are exposed many are hurt..........some blame God. They need brothers and sisters around to love and assure them it was not God who let them down, but fallen man/woman who did not seek after the things of God, but the things of the flesh.......

And this just further illustrates the point sister, exactly. When I could no longer hold down the knot that was forming in the gut, the counter voices challenging (Thank God for them!) when the realization began to come into force that we had been dupes, foolish and ignorant ... There was a part that just wanted to chuck it all as mere rubbish, [i]all of it[/i], and I mean Christianity as a whole. It can put one in a place not only where the enemy can gain a foothold but as you mentioned, some may blame God but I would say the greater part will condemn themselves.

I was and to some extent still am fighting my way out of a substantial debt due to a variety of factors, the business as mentioned, just as well, poor decision making, the usual fare of common abilities and blunders many of us get bound up in. But add in now this new paradigm of mixing [i]faith[/i] as it is so cleverly contorted and, the word I have been holding back;

[i]coercion[/i]

[b]Coercion
COERCION, n.[/b] Restraint, check, particularly by law or authority; compulsion; force.

However one wants to dice it up, this is the result. Have seen the tactics and bought the gimmickry. The high pressure situations and collective kind of 'group think' attributes that put a force upon people to give on the spot, without any true prayer or contemplation, a sense of foreboding that you might be failing God by not giving [i]something[/i], anything and then this feeling that you have not done enough, that you are a miser and are ... lacking [i]faith[/i].

I need to repent right here that I did not speak more forcefully in the other thread to this. It is unspeakable what these people are doing, there is no quarter to be given and if I gave off that illusion ... woe is me. Have been in the worst of these types of situations, Benny Hinn and his sudden 'prophetic utterances' of "some of you the Lord is telling me are able to contribute $1000 right now" (paraphrased) and watching someone write out a check right before my eyes for that very amount and what did that do but also create a sense of being on the spot? What should we do? A quick prayer .. a turning to the wife, a sense of urgency ... 50 bucks, a hundred, I don't even recall now. Plea after plea, newsletters and gimmickry, the church we attended all caught up in the same, the same Creeflo's and Hinn's and Hinckley's and on and on.

And look at them! These are the leaders and teachers and ... by God it works! They are well off, growing congregations, why shouldn't they have nice things, shiny new cars and the finest suits and watches, this is what Christ died for ... ?

But this is hardly but the symptoms of the greater disease. The fleecing of the flock, the abuse of the gullible and even the truly sincere, certainly are not most of them? Hard to tell, the element of greed, goodness even the appealing to it spoken or not, the leaders and teachers of this diabolical manipulation are wearing it on their very sleeves. But there are those who would love nothing more than to be out of debt. and free from their bondage and that presents yet another problem...

The sheer, sickening aspect is the contorting of all this. Many of these will also teach principles of stewardship at the very same time, of course with a subtle twist, that you are still supporting whatever construct they are holding up ladened with [i]promises[/i]. From the link given here;

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'Giving fatigue'

As word has spread within the church about some of Godwin's expenses, a growing number of members have been calling the church with questions. Godwin has directed most inquiries to finance committee members and elders.

Some church members say they have "giving fatigue" from numerous pledge drives. In recent years, the church has launched drives to pay off the loan for the existing church building and pave and light the parking lot there, buy the land for the new church, buy the children's carousel for the new church and construct the building. In recent weeks, they have been asked to buy the first 2,500 chairs in a $300,000 drive.

To counteract such feelings, the church has broadcast video announcements on its large screens in the sanctuary, using parody and contemporary music.

A man with devilish-looking horns on his head and burning flames behind him speaks in one of the videos, saying he's glad to see church members dislike giving money for new church building funds.

"People just run for the doors," he says. "They think up all kinds of excuses, like we disagree with this and we think the church is putting too much into that and we hate the drapes. ... They just don't want to cough up the money to get the job done. And frankly we applaud them for that."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hard to believe there could be a new low, this is just galling and appalling ... [i]Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?[/i]

Tempting ...

Well said Mike....beautiful anointed words, I hear your heart cry

As I was reading the word today the following scripture came to mind and Cater's message.

Reprobates & Trembling Nations by Cater Conlon

2Ti 3:1-7; This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Very Somber Warning to the Church

crsschk wrote:
Have been in the worst of these types of situations, Benny Hinn and his sudden 'prophetic utterances' of "some of you the Lord is telling me are able to contribute $1000 right now" (paraphrased) and watching someone write out a check right before my eyes for that very amount and what did that do but also create a sense of being on the spot? What should we do? A quick prayer .. a turning to the wife, a sense of urgency ... 50 bucks, a hundred, I don't even recall now. Plea after plea, newsletters and gimmickry, the church we attended all caught up in the same, the same Creeflo's and Hinn's and Hinckley's and on and on.

It just happened that I watched [url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=vVIdQ8BTJCQ]this[/url] video the other day. This man is lying and deluding like the devil himself. I am not grieved about him, but about thousands souls which he has lied. And we must not stand aside, we are warned and we must warn others!

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

It is already said.

Thanks Mike for that post.

If anybody reads the Bible and has the Holy Spirit as their Teacher, they will soon realise that the prosperity gospel is a terrible deception.

These ministries need to be exposed, but let us remember that Satan has been adept at deceiving for centuries and he can use the Bible very cunningly to create these false gospels. Just look at the Roman Catholic Church. Any thorough study of that system will reveal heresies and doctrines of a diabolical nature and all in the name of Christ.

The fact that the Bible remains part of the religion created is important for Satan. He can add things to it, misinterpret it, change certain verses etc etc and all the time tie the poor victim of these religions up in knots. Now we, as Evangelicals, come along and try to preach the Gospel and point to the Bible as our authority. Immediately we realise that a web has been created in these people’s minds and it can be difficult to disentangle them. Unless we have the Holy Spirit we simply can’t do it.

My point is that the prosperity gospel ministries is simply another attempt by Satan to deceive. The frightening thing is how successful they are. It makes me despair to think of those big buckets being passed round and poor folk emptying their pockets in the hope of getting a nice supernatural return on their investment. However, there is very little point in those of us who are genuinely saved dwelling on this issue. It only serves to frustrate and anger us and we don’t have to live like that. I have to admit myself that I have allowed this to annoy me.

We have to keep at the forefront of our minds the great doctrine of election. This should serve to give us peace on this issue and a fantastic hope and assurance that God can save the deepest sinner and the most entangled victim of these heresies.

In Northern Ireland there was a tremendous vocal campaign against the Roman Catholic Church in the 60’s and 70’s. It was well thought out and Scriptural, but it was CARNAL and the end result we are all aware of and don’t need to go into here. Thankfully, we’ve moved on from that period.
I just feel there’s a danger of us trying to attack the prosperity gospel ministries in the same way and the result will be ‘Christianity’ being dragged through the mud. This plays right into Satan’s hands.

The Bible teaches us to preach the Gospel in love and grace, in the same manner as we have been saved. God can save (and correct those who are already saved) in spite of the fiercest and most cunning opposition and he will use us to do it if we are willing.

So let’s not waste our time trying to work out just how immoral and deceptive these ministries are. What good does it do anybody? Only God can open men’s eyes anyway. Let’s draw close to the Lord and have Him use us in powerful service for Him.

David

I stopped reading all the Christian bookstore books, and simply began reading God's Word with no other influence other than the Holy Spirit & the time tested and proven Matthew Henry commentary.

If only more of us believers would do this!

From my own experience though I know why it's difficult. Biblical teaching doesn't appeal to our carnal nature, but if we persist and don't take our eyes off Christ and allow God to deal with us we start to see the true deep eternal wonders of the Bible which are better than anything in this world. Real secret pearls.

I have to admit I listened to Joel Osteen. I hope he's born again, but if he is he must be quite immature in the faith and definitely shouldn't be on a platform. He does speak a lot of sense though. If we just applied his methods in our service for God rather than trying to become chief executive of the company we work for............. but then I look at the vast sums his ministry makes and the way he misquotes Scripture etc etc and I just don't know. Leave it with God I say.

Krispy, it's wonderful how God opened your eyes brother. Enjoy those pearls!

Compliments wrote:The deception is more deceiving than we think. It closely hovers along with truth and like a intricate web it's tricky to separate.

My belief is that somewhere along the lines the speaking to this mountain and casting it into the sea became a means to personal financial gain and not expanding the kingdom of God. Where the blessings that God does give are for ourselves and not for others. Could God give me a million and trust that I would not spend it prodigally on myself? It seems that the only reason, according to these folk, that God would do that is because he wants you blessed. Not that he might want you to give it all away to someone else.

Like I've said before God does bless us, in every area of our lives, but he also asks us to pick up our cross daily and follow him. From what i have heard from these guys, you never hear that. The message of the cross is the message which is part and parcel of what it means to be a Christian. Its not fun and its not something that we in our natural selves would want to embrace.

Just a quick note : You can't crucify yourself, its something that other people and circumstances can only achieve.

chandras asked:
What is prosperity?

I do not know if ayone described this to your satisfaction..? Simply put: prosperity means the acquiring of wealth where one is propsperous. What the posters here are discussing is that there are American preachers who teach that if you belong to God you must give them a tenth (or a minimum of a tenth) of your income and then God will bless you so much you will become rich because he promised that you will then be blessed (with more money). Since people want to become rich they will give to this or that ministry.

Not only do these preachers say you will be blessed with lots of money, they also teach you will be healthy. So if you have health problems it is because you did not give enough money or because you have sin in your life.

Make sense?

ginnyrose

chandras wrote:
What is prosperity?

Anything else isn't worth the paper it is printed on, even if it's a dollar bill!

Seek ye [b]first[/b] the Kingdom of God... There is no seek ye second, or third, or etc. When you have achieved the defintion above, you will be truly, truly, exceedingly prosperous!

Seek Him!!!

MikeH

Being filled with the Holy Spirit, utterly consumed by the love of God with that love overflowing to all around you, and walking a holy life that is totally pleasing to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Amen MikeH

Godwin charged to the church $2,600 for an Armani suit and accessories and $2,518 for a Cartier watch.

Well he does have good taste,:-P I know the word says for all of us to be good stewards, does that mean if you have a lot of money you can still buy suits and watches like this and still be considered a good steward? Were as if you are living from paycheck to paycheck you should not be buying Armani suits and Cartier watches because you would be a bad steward?

I don't know there is a lot left open here for as definition of a good steward, I personally feel that once you give your money to the Church and you feel comfortable with your Church and your giving it's really is none of our business how it's spent but it is "Gods" business. These pastors will have to answer to God one day, unless they don't make it into Heaven then it's all irrelevant anyway guess it's a good thing they lived big on earth.

The love of money is the root of all evil is it evil that this guy bought an Armani suit and Cartier watch for example? I don't know but I can say I bet Gods does.

I personally feel that once you give your money to the Church and you feel comfortable with your Church and your giving it's really is none of our business how it's spent

Brother I am not sure how it is that you would make light of this, these people would have none of these luxuries and extravagances if it wasn't for the flock they have been fleecing.

The love of money is the root of all evil is it evil that this guy bought an Armani suit and Cartier watch for example?

While his congregation goes to the Mens Warehouse and buys a Timex? Brother, what about the souls being taken up with all this? This isn't as much about all this absurdity as it is the teaching and coercion and the complete departure from reality that Christianity is.

It is evil indeed. There was a time when it might have been said "[i]Sell it to a third world country if it is indeed a prosperity 'gospel', they could use the financial lift I am sure.[/i]" A dangerous statement in itself now, considering the things coming back in our hearing about this now being pushed into some regions and bringing ruin ...

Mike, I hope you know I wasn't making "light" of it I guess it was more like an opinion, and I respect yours, but don't we also try and back our opinions along with scriptures? were is there some "solid" scripture on this that was basically what I was trying to bring out from my opinion.

EDIT:
Mike this below is an excellent question how can we answer this with scripture?

I know the word says for all of us to be good stewards, does that mean if you have a lot of money you can still buy suits and watches like this and still be considered a good steward? Were as if you are living from paycheck to paycheck you should not be buying Armani suits and Cartier watches because you would be a bad steward?

And for the record I really don't know scripturally if it's right or wrong but my flesh says this guy needs replacing.

Are we jealous that some evangelists are rich and more blessed by God?

Blessed? Or thieves?

[i]... Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,[/i] ... 2Ti 3:4-6

It is on this order, make no mistake about it. I don't think the majority here could care less about their riches, just how they obtain them and at whose expense.

Something quite absurd going right past here, there is a real contradiction of what a preacher/pastor/teacher in fact is well before any of this business of talking about money. Attributes; Character, integrity, nobility, conduct, earnestness and forthrightness. How would this verse be taken in light of the aforementioned matters?;

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

To even give the sense of doubt or questioning that is being raised. Remember the story of Billy Graham very early on his ministry where a photographer took a picture of him holding the collections taken from I believe a tent meeting on his way to the bank and splashed it out in the papers. He was embarrassed and humiliated and made it a point that he would never again handle any finances whatsoever.

Now, they are worn openly and brazenly, boastfully ... 'blessed'.

crsschk wrote:
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,[/i] ... 2Ti 3:4-6

Yes great scripture but do "we" know for a fact this minister is a lover of pleasures more than lover of God? We have to be careful here and not to quick to judge, because if he really does Love God and just like the finer things in life we are wrong to judge him.

I am not trying to be the devils advocate here, I am only wondering if this guy is guilty as charged by some here, and do we need more sufficient scripture to back up somes opinions? I personally have not see any scripture thats iron clad unless were judging the guy without really personally knowing his heart and his Love for the Lord.

Hi Brother Jim...

Joel Osteen is a devil, a minister of Satan transformed as an angel of light, an enemy of the cross, a false teacher, a damnable heretic who is helping to spread babylons filth to the nations. We are not talking about light political opinions here. We are talking about life and death. To requote Carter Conlon.. if you can't see this about the prosperity gospel, then that is a good indication there is a division in your heart.

However, I don't know that it is wise to call out the individual ministers (like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer) who preach such a message and call them "devils." You may very well be correct about the eternal conditions of their souls. However, there might be ministers who truly love the Lord who actually believe the lies of the prosperity message. They may teach it because they themselves are misled. Are such sincere ministers also "devils?" I know a few of them who believe and teach this (perhaps not to as much of an extreme) and they seem to sincerely and honestly love the Lord. Perhaps some of these might be the same?

I remember reading about David Wilkerson's grandfather in [i]The Cross and the Switchblade[/i]. He was an "angry Baptist-holiness minister." David Wilkerson said that he would regularly preach against the doctrinal beliefs of Pentecostals with vicious indignation. Then one day, while he was a message AGAINST "speaking in tongues," he began to weep. In the middle of his message about the vices of "speaking in tongues," Brother Wilkerson began to talk about how much he loved Jesus and desired all that the Lord had for him. Suddenly, he began to speak with other tongues!

I would be hard-pressed, even as a pentecostal believer, to have labeled the elder Brother Wilkerson as a heretic or a devil EVEN THOUGH he preached against a doctrine that I hold. He preached out of sincerity, which might be a key to drawing that person back to truth. I sometimes wonder if some of these ministers might actually love the Lord in truth? Perhaps there is hope for them after all?

:-(

I know the word says for all of us to be good stewards, does that mean if you have a lot of money you can still buy suits and watches like this and still be considered a good steward? Were as if you are living from paycheck to paycheck you should not be buying Armani suits and Cartier watches because you would be a bad steward?

"I don't think the majority here could care less about their riches, just how they obtain them and at whose expense."

Not to be overly redundant but are they not stewards of someone else's money? And moreover [i]how[/i] this money is obtained. Is it conceivable that these are truly blesssed because they have worked into an art form way's of crafting the scriptures to dupe the unsuspecting and the earnest who believe they are actual exercising [i]faith[/i] through those who are supposed to be Shepperd's and overseers of their souls?

Mike, I hope you know I wasn't making "light" of it I guess it was more like an opinion, and I respect yours, but don't we also try and back our opinions along with scriptures? were is there some "solid" scripture on this that was basically what I was trying to bring out from my opinion.

Brother, I understand to some extent as an opinion, but it does come off as light when there is such a serious undergirding to it. Think Jim already began alluding to the same I would have brought forth from scriptures. The use of Timothy may have been not as astute as I might, think there was both a thought towards [i]lovers of pleasure[/i] (Hard to deny if you read through all these things) as well as a tie more towards, [i] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive[/i], that was sticking in my mind. So perhaps it wasn't the best of illustrations. But there are many. Probably one of the best messages towards all this is a very recent and timely one from the conference by Richard Sipley in regards to what is meant throughout the scriptures by "the world". It is not up yet and unfortunately I do not have my notes with me, it is something that prompted a desire to do a thorough word study on it. The things he brought forth where almost startling just how much was spoken about this, primarily from Jesus Himself.

Brother, in this instance this is not about stewardship at all. It is about method and manipulation, about the sheer destruction and ruin ... This too is redundant but there are ramifications that still go on in fortunately smaller ways with the passage of time and other circumstances, but for many, many years there was a struggle to get this entrenched mindset unloosened from those that I love. It can permeate so many things, decision making ... and how many others far worse off, silent and unspoken, perhaps too ashamed to even lift their heads. It can feed a very real bitterness right into the soul when the promised things do not begin to materialize. From the article:

[i]A brochure about the drive asks people "to pray" and "give cheerfully."

"Trust God to provide what He lays on your heart to give, even if the amount is more than your current resources can readily identify," it says. "Jesus said, 'Give and it will be given to you.'"[/i]

"Even if the amount is more than your current resources can readily identify"

Go in debt in other words or use\\have 'faith'. This is not faith but presumption and manipulation. These are the same tactics and abuses used throughout this industry as that is what it has become. Interesting that regular business's are held to higher ethics than these and to call them on the carpet is to bring all sorts of defending and complaining. There are a lot of terms used to describe all this; "Christendom" as derogatory but it is not far fetched to use it. This has turned into big business cranking out all kinds of trinkets and self help modules, specialized teaching and psychology, and so much other abstractions it is practically endless ... remember,

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Godliness is [i]gain[/i]?

All these profiteers need not even be linked to be part and parcel of the same thing, it just goes on and on and takes on it's own life and manifestations.

Am likely guilty of attempting to speak to everything all at once but believe Jim may not be far off from the truth here. It is difficult to start labeling these as devils, just something I have a difficult time stating, but to look at it all ... is it not indeed devilish? Who else was as clever to mix truth and error and even emphasize the truth, pull and tug at the emotions. Jesus had little trouble recognizing it and dealing with it;

[i]And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling–block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.[/i] Mat 16:22,23

He said unto [b]Peter[/b], Get thee behind me [b]satan[/b].

Being a good steward here in babylon 2007, is like driving a car through the fog at night. We had better know our God, His word, carrying our cross, and be pressing into the kingdom violently lest we be swept away by the error of the wicked. I know for me it is constantly scaling down... I can't believe their are those who are teaching to scale up as it is. I am by no means a poster boy for stewardship, but I know two things. One, that carrying a cross is not compatible with a life of desiring, aquiring and holding onto material posessions. Two, that no man can be Christs disciple unless they carry that cross.

Amen to that brother, likewise here, scaling down, top priority is to be completely out of debt. Oh glorious day, it might spell the very end of me for joy ... It is made much more difficult in present circumstances but am committed unequivocally. There is something amazing that has happened over the last number of years and that is this almost paradoxical understanding of money. It is what it is and does what it does but there is no interest in it for it's own sake or for it's useful selfish gain. I could say some really stupid and almost boastful things right here ... but I couldn't care less about it frankly. The way this insidious Churchdom has made an emphasis, an abuse and a desire for it ... It is truly uncanny if we would just step back from it all and look at it. The very opposite is being spread abroad without a doubt and that is [i][b]the love of money[/b][/i]. How many out there right now that would think that a million dollars would solve all their problems when the reality is that for the greatest majority of them it would be their very ruin all because they have been trained and cajoled and undermined even subconsciously to feed the very thing that the Lord came to eradicate ...

Goodness, I could go (and probably have) on and on and on.

Great post Mike and it did take me to another level of thought thanks! but as I said before I am not trying to be the devils advocate here but as always I have always been "real" slow to judge all my life.

I personally do believe what ccchhhrrriiisss said here:

However, I don't know that it is wise to call out the individual ministers (like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer) who preach such a message and call them "devils." You may very well be correct about the eternal conditions of their souls. However, there might be ministers who truly love the Lord who actually believe the lies of the prosperity message. They may teach it because they themselves are misled. Are such sincere ministers also "devils?" I know a few of them who believe and teach this (perhaps not to as much of an extreme) and they seem to sincerely and honestly love the Lord. Perhaps some of these might be the same?

This is a very powerful statement and could "just" possibly be true I could see that happening.

Feel partially apologetic here, not wanting to over speak and crowd too much in all this ... Whew. Beg your patience here;

My point is that the prosperity gospel ministries is simply another attempt by Satan to deceive. The frightening thing is how successful they are. It makes me despair to think of those big buckets being passed round and poor folk emptying their pockets in the hope of getting a nice supernatural return on their investment. However, there is very little point in those of us who are genuinely saved dwelling on this issue. It only serves to frustrate and anger us and we don’t have to live like that. I have to admit myself that I have allowed this to annoy me.

In Northern Ireland there was a tremendous vocal campaign against the Roman Catholic Church in the 60’s and 70’s. It was well thought out and Scriptural, but it was CARNAL and the end result we are all aware of and don’t need to go into here. Thankfully, we’ve moved on from that period.
I just feel there’s a danger of us trying to attack the prosperity gospel ministries in the same way and the result will be ‘Christianity’ being dragged through the mud. This plays right into Satan’s hands.

So let’s not waste our time trying to work out just how immoral and deceptive these ministries are. What good does it do anybody? Only God can open men’s eyes anyway. Let’s draw close to the Lord and have Him use us in powerful service for Him.

Did want to get back to this as I caught it earlier on today. Appreciate your take here brother. Have alluded prior to being taken to extremes and hope that whatever has been said is not perceived as an unhealthy anger towards this, difficult to know sometimes how the perception is. Indeed if we go about this carnally and are just spouting aimlessly at nothing and nobody in particular there is no benefit nor any help. It was very much those that took a strong stand without coming apart into disputings and whatnot that grabbed on to the attention and began to force up the issues, sorry again for the redundancy. It is in this regard that I do believe there can be much good, even if it is only to someone who is questioning and wrestling with these things. That leads right into Chris's comments, appreciate what you have stated here brother just as well. The illustration from David Wilkerson speaks volumes. And there is certainly that aspect that is difficult to grasp whether these are purposeful or as you stated, that they are caught up and misled themselves, that is certainly recognized. Perhaps the allusion to Jesus rebuking Peter by way of satan has more of this application than I may have even intended. Trouble stating as much is the perception of equivocating when it is just a statement of facts, much that we do not know of the interior lives and something I find just as appalling when the guess work starts to replace the unknown.

We just have what we have to work with, would to God that this would be striped back and exposed for what it is, whatever the motivations and just was dealt with. It is our very heritage of repentance and forthcoming, all those precursors and results of revival.

They may teach it because they themselves are misled.

They are indeed misled; not about doctrine but about their own hidden self. They think their good intentions, or their bible knowledge, makes them safe from the creeping corruption that resides in the old nature. In this cockeyed perspective we can say they are quite innocent; we can hardly blame Adam for acting like Adam. We can hardly blame them for wanting more and more if the fruit is just hanging there for the picking.

I once had a Christian publisher send me a pastor's book to design a cover for. On the back of the manuscript the pastor/author wrote "Jesus wants to give you all the things the world glamourizes, but he wants your heart first." Of course this is pretzel logic, for if Jesus had our hearts first, then we would hardly want the things the world glamorizes.

Likewise it is pretzel logic to say on one hand that these fellas love the Lord, but on the other hand they have this innocent flaw of loving the things the world glamorizes. This is a more then a contradiction of logic or doctrine; it is a contradiction of natures. Now some of us who are otherwise sensible, might not take pleasure is recognizing this patent absurdity, because we have a certain pride in being nice guys...and nice guys don't point out that someone is unbuttoned in public.

Yet I know how nice guys 'taken advantage of' by these men are also exposing their own hidden corruption. I am not saying this out of judgementalism but out of recollection; afterall I was the nicest guy full of inward corruption! Some of us once empowered these kinds of teachers because we secretly (or openly) itched for what they were selling. That is why we were over at their churches, rather then attending more biblically sound churches that promised us the cross.

So yes there is deception in the propsperity doctrine, but not about any specific doctrine itself, but a dishonesty with ourselves about the nature we are hiding within clean cups. These rich television preachers we tune into are rich because they are tuned into us! They know what makes us tick...they are experts in leveraging our own self interest through religion. Experts in greed I believe was a phrase Paul used...at the root of their success is a cycnicsm that understands Adam is never satisfied with what God has given him.

No, rest assured if we are living for gain or for what the world glamorizies, we are not being honest about ourselves in regards to our first love. Pray he shows some of us a mirror. Otherwise our nice guy dishonesty will enable us to sanction outlandishly corrupt behavior that is shocking even to the gentiles. The very house that was once cleaned can now have even more spirits living in it! We should see wanton greed for what it is...not to be haughty, but to be humble and gaurded, lest our house is overtaken too.

MC

Just to give us some more thoughts on this. My Church recently had a big drive in giving to some building project. Just to give you some background, this is not a wof church and neither is the message blessing, blessing, blessing or rather me, me, me. The teaching is solid and the leadership are all nice guys etc, in other words its a really nice church.

That said, the pitch to congregation about giving to this endeavor made me cross, excuse the pun. It was a message of denying yourself and picking your cross up and giving to the cause of saving souls etc. It wasn't that that got me annoyed, it was the fact that 80% of what is preached is nice preaching. ie. Nothing about your cross that Jesus has for you and that the cross isn't just nice for you, but the only thing for you.

Also, most of what the church does is geared towards making folk feel comfortable and welcome, from providing childcare facilities for couples so they can enjoy the service without having to run after their toddler every five seconds to providing meals in the evenings so don't have to rush home and cook. So the culture in the church is very accommodating, very friendly, very inviting, make yourself at home because we are after all a family. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with this, its that these things then become a prerequisite for having good church and not just a nice extra. Being in sales and marketing I know how quickly nice extras can become indispensable necessities because the expectation has been created, and the masses are mindless, with all due respect to the masses.

One of the goals/key values that I try and get through to our front office staff is the management of customer expectations. In a church context the mismanagement of the saints expectations is what causes the slide to self, this really is the responsibility of the leaders in the church. We deserve nothing but hell, and anything better than that is sovereign work of gods grace on our behalf. Thats were we should live, but the psychologists in the church may start complaining that we are battering the peoples self esteem. Folk may stop coming because we aren't stroking their souls.

Make no mistake, the leadership in the church are not flashy in terms of what they drive or what they wear and they really love the Lord, but the pitch about giving just smacked of inconsistency. This may not be the case at all, but that is how it appeared to me.

I suppose for me it was the context of what was being said that just made me sit up. The message of the cross is not just for special occasions to be wiped out when we really need people to sacrifice, but a daily reality which affects the way I treat my wife, my children and the people that work for me. For the church growth guru's making people uncomfortable is a no-no, and the picking up of your cross daily is hardly ever comfortable, so make it sweet. Tell people to die with a smile on your face with all the enthusiasm you can muster and maybe they'll think its not such a bad idea this Christianity thing. I suppose this is where you get the Bill Hybels extreme, where nothing about attending church points to the fact that there is a cross waiting for you submit your will on every day.

I am glad actually that this thread has gone this way, because I need reminding of these things, daily. Self preservation creeps in so quickly and with looking after a wife and children, the things of this world tend to start taking center stage, while outside your door there people marching happily to hell.

To be honest I think this issue is handled well on SI. In the main, these ministries are well exposed, but with a deep love for those caught up in them. I think this is mainly due to the fact that many of us have given credence to these teachings at some part of our Christian life. I know they were attractive to me for a while. It was solely God who opened my eyes and He used His true servants to do it.

I also feel there is a healthy holy anger which we feel inside us when we observe any false doctrine and we should be careful not to confuse this with our own carnal anger, which is fruitless. These ministries, because of the size of their congregations and followings are actually quite large political forces now so if we try and attack them carnally we will simply lose.

The prosperity ministries invoke our passions to a greater degree in my opinion because they make use of the Bible in a cunning way to promote their teachings. This mixing of truth with error is what is difficult. When we are immature in the faith we can be duped because the truth attracts our spiritual longings (God will always bless His Word), but the error attracts our carnal desires so it seems wonderful initially. It’s like the best of both worlds. But we never quite get to an understanding of the work of the cross. Satan won’t let you get there. If God doesn’t step in and rescue us we could end up thinking we’re saved when we’re not. God can and will use us, who are out of these systems, in this rescue act. You’ll find however that most people duped by this teaching don’t want rescued.

Another outcome of being in these ministries is that we could be saved but end up living a lost life i.e. with no real meaningful fruit for Christ e.g. we could become materially rich but our lavish lifestyle would more than likely ruin us spiritually and the name of Christ would be disgraced as a result. This is Satan’s goal.

This is an age old problem though as I’ve mentioned in my previous post and has stifled many a revival. It is just the latest in the line of false gospels. Satan has been at it for years. This particular one has bred fiercely in our Western culture. It can also invade 'sound' churches.

I feel the key is to guard our own personal walk with Christ and try and not to be influenced by the culture around us. Yes, we have families and yes we have jobs and yes we have health issues, but if we stick close to Him the result will be that He will flow into every area of our lives and will reveal Himself more and more to us.

Remember, God knows all about these ministries. He knows them better than we know them.

We are going to meet Christ one day, that’s where are journey is leading us and don’t let anybody or anything in this corrupt ruined world get in the way of that personal relationship. Then, I pray, we’ll have peace in our hearts and true fruitful service for Christ.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Is sincerity of the heart what matters?

Ultimately if they view Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour and profess to having a personal relationship with him then I must trust that I will see them one day in eternity. Not So?

KrispyKrittr wrote:we can not judge anothers salvation. We can, however, judge their actions and tell, according to scripture, if what they are doing is indicative of a believer in Jesus Christ.

if you are going to answer can you give some scripture references, so I can at least see where you get your thoughts from.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Not sure what you're asking. Can you be a little more specific?

Krispy

If you haven't then forget it, but if you have i would like to know what you think.

As is said: presumption is the mother of all s%^ffups.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Scripture is pretty clear that they were not of us.

Now, the question for me is... where do we draw the line? There will always be disagreements over different doctrines. Which ones matter and which ones dont?

How much grace does God give them? I dont think much. Mainly because the God/Jesus that they teach about AFTER your saved, is not the GodJesus of the Bible. It's a different Jesus, it's a different gospel... their gospel is a selfish gospel of worldy wealth.

But yet they can succesfully lead someone to salvation... it's hard to know where to draw that line.

Does this help?

Hi Krispy and Jim...

I believe that I understand what you are saying. To many of us here, the sinful ramifications of the prosperity message are quite obvious. The most typical of these messages seems to encourage a "[i]lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life[/i]" as completely acceptable motivation for giving (which, of course, is UNacceptable for a true believer).

The Word of God is clear about our manner of giving. While the principle of "give and it shall be given" is true, we should never give in a manner encouraged by the prosperity movement. This teaching has turned giving into a mere "down payment" for earthly pleasures. It forbids contentment, because believers are urged to want more. As the years go by, it inches closer and closer to "[i]Post-Millennial Dominionism[/i]" and the breaking of the 10th commandment -- "[i]Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's[/i]" found in Exodus 20:17.

My only fear from this is that we might go too far by publicly calling out a minister as a "devil." Isn't it enough to first teach the devilish nature of the message itself and then warn about the various ministries that espouse such doctrine WITHOUT wandering into the realm of calling a person a "devil?" Of course, Mike (crsschk) pointed out that this could be similar to the manner in which Jesus called Simon Peter a "devil" -- but I'm not sure. I've noticed that we often feel the bold audacity of calling out a particular person as a "devil" simply because they teach something contrary to our own beliefs. The teaching of prosperity, in my opinion, is certainly a flawed teaching that can lead others astray. But is the acceptance of it or the teaching of it enough to send a person to Hell?

There are some very different opinions on this website. Over the years, I have seen some debates in which people were almost willing to inform the opposing party within the debate about their "dire eternal condition." While in many cases it may be true that such teachers or adherents are unsaved, is it possible that someone simply needs to teach the Word of the Lord to them "[i]more perfectly[/i]" (Acts 18:24-26)?

Forgive me if it sounds like I am condoning the "obvious" false doctrines -- because I am not. But most of the believers and teachers of this doctrine also have many other beliefs that mirror many of our own. Most of them probably are sincere in their embracement of the "prosperity" message. Perhaps it would be more helpful to simply call the "doctrine" and "teaching" for what it is without wandering into the realm of personal and public salvation questioning?

:-)

BTW, I really appreciate the words found within many of the posts found in this thread.

Intens4Him wrote:
I used to get very upset when talking about these prosperity teachers (and it's easy!) but the Lord has allowed us to understand their end...

I have probably met over 100 different Pastors in my 56 years and I have never not had one teach prosperity to some degree "by the way it is ok to prosper", maybe you like to follow the ones that teach doom and gloom gospel and there are even some that preach bondage like John Hagee. I will take a minister that speaks on prosperity any day over the doom and gloomers but thats just my preference. :-)
Personally I think we need to be taught by whatever Pastor that can minister to us doom and gloomers cannot minister to me.

dorcas wrote:
It's not like you to sit on the fence like this... ;-)

You know I have been a member of Lakewood since 1993, I sat under pastor John and I Loved that man and I am still a member and proud to be a member, but I never in my wildest dreams ever thought this site would allow someone to call my Pastor a devil.

I personally think that was hitting below the belt and uncalled for, but I don't own the site if so this would have been stricken and the member warned but I don't make the rules but there are ways to get your message out in a kindler gentler way some just don't know how.

Yes I am a little upset you would be also if someone was allowed to call your pastor a devil now wouldn't you? I will get over it but it really takes a hit on the integrity of this site to allow such verbal abuse of "any" Pastor period but thats just my opinion..

Dear precious brethren: We are truly in the last days and what we will be faced with will command us to be valiant for The Truth. How did it happen that we allowed so many ministers to become celebrities? Is Christ in you dear brethren? The gospel that comes out of the mouth of many of these ministers is directed to the soulish area of man. Try and picture any of the apostles of our Lord speaking such compromise and mixture. May the Lord help us to see clearly and to have our house built upon that Rock and not on sand. Let us walk in Him and look to Him. For everything is in Him. How could we ever desire anything less. May the Lord God bless and keep us in His Hand. May He forgive us for our sins of compromise for not trusting Him and for looking to man and his organizations. May He open our eyes to see clearly.

dorcas wrote:

MrBillPro

but thats just my opinion...

So, do you see the Truth as of [i]any[/i] importance?

You know it's funny I was going to answer you but God just spoke to me and said to leave this thread be so I will. :-)

Hi dorcas...

According to Paul, the man who wants to listen to false doctrine is the one causing trouble in the church, not those identifying the fraudsters.

The problem with "pointing out" a particular minister is that this ventures into the realm of infallibility. Can a man know the heart or spiritual condition of another simply by a singular doctrine that the person espouses? There are people who believe and proclaim that "speaking in tongues" is not available for today's believers. As a classical pentecostal, I believe otherwise. I believe that those who teach that "tongues have ceased" are in error. Even some old holiness or Bapist ministers sometimes get downright audacious by calling "tongue-talkers" to be false believers. But I would never venture into returning such an insult -- no matter how sincere those preachers are.

There are many believers who attend this website who are strictly opposed to the pentecostal message (or the experiences claimed and espoused by pentecostal teachers). Yet there are some godly men whose messages are included on SermonIndex (like Carter Conlon and David Wilkerson) who are pentecostal believers. Is it right for those non-pentecostals to label these men as "false teachers," "misled," or worse, "devils?"

We need to be careful. There are some prosperity teachers who take their message into the realm of extremism or even greed. But there are others who might not be quite so extreme. They may sincerely believe in a form of prosperity (based upon "give and it shall be given") without taking upon themselves the mantle of "name it, claim it" or "God wants you rich!" Are we willing to point the finger of heresy at them simply upon a single, particular doctrine that they believe? Do we even know with certainty the extent to what they believe and teach?

In this case, I really don't know WHAT it is that Joel Osteen teaches. I must admit that I've turned on his program from time to time. I always quickly turn it off. It's not that I have heard him teach blatantly "false doctrines." I've never actually heard him even venture into the extreme forms of the modern prosperity message. Why do I turn the guy off? I just don't feel that I am being provoked properly by his messages. The little that I have heard is simply a very elementary teaching about God's love. Of course, as a viewer, we don't know what he teaches when the cameras are off. I've never read any of his books. I've never attended his church. I've never met him. I certainly don't believe in the "prosperity" message. In my opinion, it reeks of lust for this world, coveting the things of this world and greed for more. Yet I still don't know enough of this man's teaching or spiritual condition enough in order to publicly call this man a "devil."

:-(

Edit: This whole subject is so troubling. Let's just leave it at this.

godliness is gain

Isn't it wonderful now how we don't have to depend on the atheists, ungodly or non believers to talk about us Christians anymore were all doing a "fine" job ourselves, keep up the good work Brethren. Spending your entire life concentrating on the Christians exposing all there faults like God made you the Christian Police talking down our Brethren must really be a depressing job but I guess someone has to do it.

I think God I was not called to do this and I would venture to say "the real called" probably have more Christian like approach to there actions and use real caution in there words, of course I am sure regardless of "any" of our faults that God loves the person that calls any of his children the "devil".

I think a lot of us here should do more preaching in the mirror probably be some of the best sermons you ever heard, I Had and old pastor tell me when I was about 10 years old in 1960 he was probably 90 at the time he said, Bill approach is everything in life he meant how we approach "anything" if this thread is any indication of some's approach in there walk I am sure glad I won't be standing in their shoes on Judgment day.

Many folks have refused the Christian life because it has been presented to them in its negative rather than its positive aspect. They say that Christian conduct is against everything pleasant and profitable. They say Christians are like the woman who complained that everything worth doing in this life was either immoral, illegal, or fattening!

Contrary to worldly belief, being a true Christian does not mean the forfeiting of all real pleasure. Only sinful pleasure that has been forbidden by God is to be given up. The full acceptance of Christ and the determination to be guided by God's will draws you almost immediately to the source of the only true pleasure which is fellowship with Christ.

Even as the psalmist says, "They feast on the abundance of your house; you give them drink from your river of delights" (Psalm 36:8). God has also said, "No good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly" (Psalm 84:11). Paul said that "[God has] given us richly all things to enjoy" (1 Timothy 6:17).

A final word to all the "Christian Police" here the reality of our Christian profession is shown in many ways: the things we say, as well as the things we do not say; the things we do, as well as the things we do not do.
Have A Blessed Thanksgiving, :-)
Mr. Bill

... but I do understand what you are saying. I have a personal issue, as not only was i harmed by these people but many poor widows and other homeless on the streets of Detroit that I minister to are greatly harmed by these false teachers.

Let is be known that my primary ministry is feeding, preaching to and loving the poor, gangs, prositutes and homelss in the inner city. I am NOT a heresy hunter. With that being said I believe with 100% all of my heart, knowing that I must give an account for such words, that these teachers are co-workers of satan. Not only do they bring reproach to the body of Christ now but they are contributing in the damning of souls. They are not misguided brethren, they are devils, they preach another gospel, they masquerade as angels of light and as Peter said blackest darkness is reserved for them.

Brother, not ironic that I had it in mind to ask you to elaborate, recalling what you have mentioned in the past. This gives a perspective that I think is to easily lost, for some of us it is very much personal ... seeing and living with the ramifications, the results of all this.

My only fear from this is that we might go too far by publicly calling out a minister as a "devil." Isn't it enough to first teach the devilish nature of the message itself and then warn about the various ministries that espouse such doctrine WITHOUT wandering into the realm of calling a person a "devil?" Of course, Mike (crsschk) pointed out that this could be similar to the manner in which Jesus called Simon Peter a "devil" -- but I'm not sure. I've noticed that we often feel the bold audacity of calling out a particular person as a "devil" simply because they teach something contrary to our own beliefs. The teaching of prosperity, in my opinion, is certainly a flawed teaching that can lead others astray. But is the acceptance of it or the teaching of it enough to send a person to Hell?

To follow up a bit there, what I think I was alluding to more was that Jesus was looking, if you will, straight through Peter to the source in that instance. I was drawing towards that aspect and presenting it as a possibility. Motives can be very tricky things, there can be an earnest intent of 'well doing', was Peter in that instance doing anything other than what he thought was defending the Lord? Or what he believed\\thought was in the Lords best interest?

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

It is not "Peter, you are an offense unto me", But [i]satan[/i] [b]"thou"[/b] art an offense" ..."[b]thou[/b] savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." In one sense it is the devil pulling Peters heart strings, even using his vocal cords in a way, turning the concerns to that which [i]be of men[/i]. Is this not part and parcel what a clamoring for prosperity in fact is, men's desires as greater than [i]the things that be of God[/i]?

In a strange way it is not all that difficult to take both what Jim is articulating as well as Chris and others ... There may be some pushing the boundaries here, perhaps all that I might state is, it is understandable all things taken into consideration, I do not know that it is all quite OK, but I do understand the why of it.

You know I have been a member of Lakewood since 1993, I sat under pastor John and I Loved that man and I am still a member and proud to be a member, but I never in my wildest dreams ever thought this site would allow someone to call my Pastor a devil.

I personally think that was hitting below the belt and uncalled for, but I don't own the site if so this would have been stricken and the member warned but I don't make the rules but there are ways to get your message out in a kindler gentler way some just don't know how.

Yes I am a little upset you would be also if someone was allowed to call your pastor a devil now wouldn't you? I will get over it but it really takes a hit on the integrity of this site to allow such verbal abuse of "any" Pastor period but thats just my opinion..

I don't know brother, we have had far worse and have been patient ... It is challenging if all of it is taken into consideration, all the expressions. If I am waffling here at all it is an unwillingness to go as far as some in judging the interior, the motivation ... the [i]intent[/i]. Just as well would find it very difficult to turn about and defend what is being [i]taught[/i]. You have been with us for some time brother and many know already that you belong to that church and yet ... you still come here and draw off of all these things. It is curious how you might process it all and that is said with just an open wonder and honesty. You mentioned the 'doom and gloom' as almost oscillatory, one being preferable over the other, this seems to be epidemic where we presently are. That we would seek after preferential and get it by way of those who are presenting a selective counsel over the whole counsel of the word of God. There is a truth there in your emphasis that is just as ruinous by way of gloom and doom without hope, without joy, without love ... without any repair. I do recognize that 'itching ears' has more than one application.

What has been pressing on me contemplating all this is just how differently things might be perceived if in your particular instance you were to go out with Jim for a season, into the slums, into his area of ministry. Or in another instance went to live and hear the woes of those who have been shattered by this whole presentation ... Brother, there is something that just doesn't play out beyond these shores the happy, wonderful, 'best life', that works in an affluent and selfish, self absorbed setting, hard words perhaps but even the 'middle' of us as a class are to be pitied if we are not continually grateful for what we do have already. "Contentment" is something that I just cannot fathom in this whole tangled philosophy as already given, why is this not emphasized and contrasted by ...

This is where I really wanted to go with this. The persecuted and the poor. These are our [i]Brethren[/i]. How, how can all this prosperity and it's a wonderful life emphasis be squared with theirs, own own kind, our very brothers and sisters. Is it not strange that it sounds [i]strange[/i] to some ears when it is articulated back as it was earlier, "we do not know what these men are talking about" in places where it costs them [i]dearly[/i] to be disciples of Jesus Christ? Cost's them their very lives and we ... have the audacity to measuring cost in ... refinement, watches and fancy cars ... our so called "leaders"? Something is greatly amiss here and completely out of line, forget balance with what the life of a Christian is supposed to be and project and proclaim.

Is it enough to give a token nod as if that covers the extravagances, justifies them?

There is something about just getting down to the roots of this whole matter, beyond personal effrontery. Perhaps it does need to be made more personal after all ... If there is nothing to hide and nothing to defend, there should be little concern about being offended. And that works across a whole lot of generalities here. The Lord was very straightforward in these matters, much for all of us to consider.

Mike I respect you and your opinions very much and I know we both do both love each other and there has been times in the past you have stood your ground for me and I would never expect a brother in Christ to do this all the time because it would make you look like your on the fence and we don't want anyone to perceive us as fence straddlers.

Mike I am not condoning nor justifying nice expensive cars and homes and etc. for Ministers
or "ANYONE" you can go back and read all my posts on this and you will not find were I have said anything about all this. This started out as a prosperity thread, prosperity more than likely has a different definition to all of us. Mike I am a little hurt that for one minute you don't think I have ever been were Jim ministers in the streets, did you sum that up because I am a member of Lakewood? Brother I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth during a 9 month period of my 34 year marriage my wife and I lived on the streets "sorry a few tears here" so I have seen the worst of the worst been there done that bought the shirt, please don't stereotype me with some's perceptions of the "Lakewood" crowd, by the way have you ever attended Lakewood even once? if not I would encourage you to do so "just once" you don't have to make it a habit just walk through the doors and feel the Love and spirit and "sincere" fellowship from the "diverse" crowd of folks that attend there. I feel it's wrong to generalize all the Church members to be like the Pastor or even go as for as saying we all support all of his beliefs I go there for the word and there has been "many" times it's only take a couple words spoken by God through Pastor Joel to inspire me and lift me for a season.
I am really just about beat down here over the very loose words some have spoken here I can remember times here we all loved each other so much we would take a stand for them and minister them back to the Lord and leave out the name calling, but it looks like the doors of Sermonindex have been breached by old sluefoot himself and I bet he is smiling on us and a happy as a pig in the mud over the bickering here and the name calling.
Yes brothers it's a sad day when we can't even go to Church and fellowship anymore without the feeling of being a sinner just because of a Pastors actions but I will continue to attend there until "God" tells me to get the heck out of there at that point I will not look back.
I do hope the name calling and the continued put downs do leave some with some sort of gratification here that way it's not all in vain. Lastly as I have said before we all could do a little more Ministering to ourselves in the mirror each day.

Jimdied2sin said

Mark and avoid him as a false teacher and minister of the devil I say in all sincerity. He is a minister of satan and the epitimy of our babylonian american 'church' system. Run for your life from such teachers and their teachings.

You don't mess about Jim. Straight to the point. Thanks for advice. I know Joel Osteen doesn't preach the cross and his message is one of prosperity.

This whole thing is just [b]so[/b] deceptive and downright evil! Especially when you are going through a difficult time in life i.e. when you're vulnerable.

It preys on those weak in the faith or unlearned I feel. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised because the Bible warns constantly against this e.g. 2 Timothy Ch3

Honestly, it really does take the Holy Spirit abiding in us to see through these things.

Could someone here "please" show me were I am defending "all" his teachings, what just because I attend there? for the record I am defending the "Church" that is the people right?? I guess if you work for a company that there is some corruption going on there that makes you corrupt? On that note I would Love to come to some of you folks Churches and jobs for a few days just to see what perfection is like, I bet I could come back here and write a book. I would venture to say here that I bet you could take 5 of us here and send us to "any" members Church here for one Sunday and we all could come back here and have a variety of opinions good and bad so does that make you Pastor any better in Gods eyes?

davym wrote:
Honestly, it really does take the Holy Spirit abiding in us to see through these things.

I can sure relate to that but I would say it this way:

"it really does take the Holy Spirit abiding
in us to see through "ALL" things" :-)

By the way most have worked so hard on trying to slam my Pastor they haven't even seen the light on what I do believe, try reading my signature line this might shed some light on my beliefs.

I did not plan on spending my Thanksgiving eve on this, we could all probably write our own book of beliefs if it were not for the Word of God for us to follow and probably would have by now, so I have to get for a few to help the wife prepare some food for tomorrow so I will leave you with this.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone and your Families and don't take anywishbones or wooden nickels. :-P

Hi Jim, Krispy, at al...

I don't think that anyone here is defending either the prosperity message or even those accused of teaching it. Like I said, I don't even know the extent of Joel Osteen's doctrinal views. It would have been perhaps more educational to expose those views within the context of this conversation. From all that I have seen and heard concerning Brother Osteen, I don't know that I have ever seen anything that would cause me to categorize him amongst the more extreme "prosperity" preachers (especially those based in Tulsa). I have met several ministers and fellow believers who are good people but still espouse the principle of "give and it shall be given" without carrying it into the extreme of obvious greed. Me? I don't care about the things of this world enough to really desire them that much. I believe, as Brother Wilkerson has taught, that we should be like King Solomon: "[i]Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain[/i]" (Proverbs 30:8-9).

I appreciate Mike's commentary about Jesus calling out Peter. That is quite thought provoking. My fear in this, however, is that it seems that Jim is not speaking in the same manner. I could be wrong, but it at least [i]seems[/i] that Brother Jim is simply proclaiming that Joel Osteen is not saved, and is rather a "devil" and a "false teacher" who will lead people to Hell.

Is it possible that someone can believe and even teach something that isn't perfect in doctrinal truth but still be a believer? Is there any Scriptural anecdotes for this? How about Paul's rebuke of Peter to his face? Peter was teaching gentiles to live under the bondage of the Law while Peter himself was living like a gentile. Paul rebuked him openly. But did Paul speak to him in such a manner as to question his very salvation?

It is not that we are embracing or condoning the doctrine of prosperity. To many of us, it is an obvious misunderstanding and misapplication of Scripture. It is NOT a sound doctrine, and can wander into the realm of greed. But we are NOT embracing this doctrine. We are simply deciding to NOT cross the line of acting like we have foreknowledge about the names found within the Book of Life. Yes, we will "know them by their fruit." But do we really know Joel Osteen and his doctrine well enough as to proclaim that he is not saved? I'm not even certain about the extent of his doctrine!

Again, would it not be better to simply call out the doctrine rather than the man? We can call the doctrine for what we feel it is. We can warn people about both the doctrine and those whom we feel espouse this doctrine. But should we be so bold as to cross the line of proclaiming the eternal condition of others? I fear that, by doing so, we give precedent to others who might use the same liberty to say the same about us because [i]they believe it to be TRUE[/i].

There are some sects out there that base their beliefs upon verses or an interpretation of Scripture. My wife doesn't cover her head with man-made coverings. Is it right for someone to say that she is going to Hell? Krispy listens and proclaims his liberty to listen to Christian Rock and Roll. Is it right for someone to say that he is a sinful man and false teacher? Some believers proclaim their belief that they can drink wine. Is it right for someone to call them "devils?" Some speak in tongues. Does anyone have a right to proclaim that they do so by the power of Satan?

I've listened to a lot of messages over the course of my spiritual pilgrimage. Sometimes, I agree COMPLETELY with the entire message. Sometimes, I agree with MOST of the message. Sometimes, I agree with SOME of the message. And sometimes, I don't agree with ANY of the message. But does this give me the right to boldly and publicly proclaim the preacher to be a false teacher, a devil or a man headed for Hell? I don't agree with Lester Roloff on quite a few doctrinal views. But I wouldn't call the man a [i]devil[/i] (or even label him as a [i]false teacher[/i]). Rather, I would simply disagree with his doctrinal view and leave it at that. If he has many followers of the view, I might LOUDLY proclaim the errors of such a view without calling out the man himself.

Do you see what I mean? Yes, we are talking about a doctrine that is OBVIOUS to most of us. But we are not really talking merely about the [i]doctrine[/i], are we? We are talking about a [i]teacher[/i] (Joel Osteen) who [u]seemingly[/u] espouses such a doctrine. I don't even know if he does -- or to what extent he does. But even if he does, is it proper to publicly proclaim that the man is leading people to Hell?

Perhaps there are some of you who have read his book, watched his meetings on television, listened to his teachings and met him personally. Does he really espouse this sort of doctrine? IF he does -- to what extent does he teach it?

:-(

Hi Brother Jim...

You are correct in what I have said of Joel Osteen. This goes beyond prosperity. Like the false prophets of Jeremiahs day he strengthens sinners in their sins, falsely assures those who recite the prayer at the end of his program that they have been born again, preaches prosperity, love of pleasure, saving your life rather then losing it, and self esteem lessons in place of repenting of all known sin, dying to self, selling your posseions and giving to charity. (The Gospel that Jesus and the Apostles preached)

While I agree with all that is said against the prosperity false-gospel, I still don't know if it is wise to call out the man himself. Our brother (Mr.Bill) who sits (or sat) under his ministry seems very much to be a follower of the Lord and His true Gospel. Surely he is more aware of this man than we are.

Personally, I don't get anything from Joel Osteen's ministry whatsoever. I do not like the "mega-church" movement. I despise the modern prosperity message. But I do know some people who are a part of such things that are very real (albeit unwitting) believers. I'm not sure that either the embracement of what you mention above merits immediate dismissal of any notion that Joel Osteen is (or has ever been) saved.

For what it is worth, I am more concerned over the lack of discernment on this matter then anyone is over my comments.

I would hate to be guilty of bearing false witness against a man who truly is a child of the King. His doctrine is reputedly flawed. If he teaches the prosperity message, then I believe his doctrine is flawed. But is it our call to say that he is damned because of it? Perhaps he just needs someone to expose him to the truth?

I would still warn people against the prosperity teaching. I would still warn people about teachers who proclaim this doctrine. But I would still use strong hesitation before publicly proclaiming that this man's name is not found in the Book of Life. As a pentecostal, I have had several people say the same thing about me.

:-(

Remember, we are not what we once were. Many of us have changed our beliefs over time and maturity. This is even true of preachers. As we grow in the Lord, so do our doctrinal beliefs. I'm glad that no one called me a "devil" when I was first saved and proclaiming beliefs that I now see as flawed.

dorcas wrote:
But [b]woe unto you[/b] that are [b]rich![/b] for ye have received your consolation. [b]Woe unto you[/b] that are [b]full![/b] for ye shall hunger. [b]Woe unto you[/b] that [b]laugh[/b] now! for ye shall mourn and weep. [b]Woe[/b] unto you, when all [b]men shall speak well[/b] of you! [u]for so did their fathers to the [b]false prophets[/b][/u].

Describe "rich" Paul said that "[God has] given us richly all things to enjoy" (1 Timothy 6:17).
so see here we can all come up with different scriptures to defend our beliefs some do it better than others. I for one am not even close to the best, but see I listen to the spirit within me minister to me not totally man, so hold that thought if this is so it would just reiterate my comments on another post that Pastor Joel and everything he teaches is "not" keeping me in any sort of bondage, as like the folks preaching that prosperity is bad for you.

As for Jim from what I gather he is a street minister, well if he is preaching that prosperity is bad looks like he will not loose many followers and if he is doing so he is keeping his followers in bondage to be teaching such false truth and their lives will continue to be spent "on the streets" listening to ministers like Jim.

I personally think some here speak with a jealous heart and are just jealous because some prosper and maybe they haven't and if the "truth" be known and if we could see their heart like God they would be slower to speak or maybe not speak at all on this. I Pray that the Lord will "test" all you folks that preach against prosperity the Lord just Blesses them with an abundance to see how you really are, will you keep it? will you give it all away? or will you become greedy? or is it possible that God "may" just want to Bless you and give you nice things? O no that can't happen that would be totally against your beliefs. :-)
No one here will ever convince me God does not want us to prosper or be taught prosperity to some extent, so what he died to keep us all poor and in bondage so we would have to go out and steal because were hungry yes thats it. You folks that are teaching that prosperity is bad or just as equal to Pastor Joel telling folks prosperity is ok go ponder that for a while.

dorcas wrote:
The whole prosperity doctrine is based in an Old Covenant mindset and is barely compatible with Christianity.

Well the God "I" serve tells me this and it's in his word, enough said:

For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

If you want to live by the poor,poor pitiful me doctrine if there is one it's your choice. I don't want much in life just what God has for me, if thats 10 cents a day I will have to make due with it the best I can but I will not deny his Blessing if it's Billions he wants me to have I will take it with no guilt feelings and surely not question God motives.
It's plain as day if you can read this "declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you" guess your doing some scripture denying yourself.

I know that this footage (link below) is cut unfavourably against Joel Osteen, but I think it's quite telling nonetheless

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9-PebV634]Joel Osteen said what?[/url]

Mr BillPro wrote

Well the God "I" serve tells me this and it's in his word, enough said:

I disagree. It's not 'enough said'. We can't build a doctrine on a few verses of Scripture. I know churches who try and build their doctrine on the Book of Acts. This won't work. We need to take the Bible as a whole.

The Bible as a whole lifts up and glorifies Christ and the work of redemption and debases the Adamic sinful nature of mankind. Many modern churches neglect God's primary message to mankind and magnify ANYTHING be it prosperity, works, family, friendships, outreach.....etc... All of which have their place, but not subtly positioned at the forefront.

Don't miss the work of the cross. I don't mean just give it 'lip service' as many do, I mean see the eternal work! Sin in all its forms put away forever! Christ the Saviour!

Then we have real prosperity whether we're materially rich or poor!

dorcas wrote:
MrBillPro,

Thank you for provoking me to pursue this study further. I've been very challenged by it, as I trust you have been also.

I feel the same, so some good did come out of all this, we both want to stand our ground and hey thats ok as long as we agree to disagree hey no hard feelings on my part. I also found that at least Pastor Joel has a lot of folks attention rather his message is right or wrong it does help send folks deeper into the word, so he is doing some good even for the nay sayers of the prosperity gospel, see how God works? but really since we are standing our ground on our opinions, I personally have come to the decision we are probably now beating a dead horse, but I still Love you. :-)

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9-PebV634]Joel Osteen said what?[/url]

This is rubbish! :-x

Osteen is talking to Christians, born again, new creations in Christ, not to unredeemed sinners. Maybe if the creator of the video didn't look at himself in such a negative way, and realize that he is forgiven and God does value him, he could be a lot happier with life.

Disgusting propaganda! To think that this was more than likely made by a Christian. :-(

One response to the video is a sermon by Wilkinson: They Have Done Away with the Cross. Of course the cross is an offense, I am crucified with Christ I no longer live but Christ lives in me. This is a reality of who we are, there is no denying that.

Once a person is in the church and is a born again what is the problem with what Osteen has preached in this video. I am referring to this video in particular. If you are speaking to dead men in their sins, this video is correct in its accusations. Whether, the people in his church are still dead in their sins and transgressions is his responsibility. To presume however that they are is speculation.

its a shame really. I am not saying that we should not pick up our cross daily. What is meant by that statement is a laying down of our wills, choosing his way over my way everyday, thats picking up your cross.

Paul said I die daily, he was saying every day I consider myself dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Every day, reminding himself of who is Lord. There is only one cross that I come to anyway when I confess my sins, its his, not mine.

So, Ja, I am a bit disappointed in this video. I do have a problem if you give this psycho babble to the unredeemed. They deserve the torments of mind and spirit that come with violating his word. But to Christians, the is encouraging stuff.

Let us take heed to ourselves brothers and sisters and to what we hear, and to whom we give entrance into the door of our hearts,

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [i]it is[/i] because [i]there is[/i] no light in them."

- Isaiah chapter 8 verse 20(KJV)

[b][color=660000] The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
[/color][/b]

- Matthew chapter 6 verses 22 and 23(KJV)

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways, says James.

Is not a divided heart ready to be conquered?

[b][color=660000] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.[/color][/b]

Whom have we in Heaven, but Thee O God, and on Earth, is there any that we desire besides Thee?

I am sure God is real proud of his children pounding on Pastor Joel "which by the way is also God's child" but some folks are just bored, please post your church and your pastors name lets not discriminate, I am sure if we "dig" deep enough we can expose some dirt on them also, and if you don't post or refuse to post you Pastor and Church here I am guessing there is something to hide.

Wow it really saddens me to see how bored some Christians are, as I said in an earlier post the reality of our Christian profession is shown in many ways the things we say, as well as the things we do not say; the things we do, as well as the things we do not do.

Thanks for beating up my Pastor I hope you all got some sort of satisfaction in doing so and it was not all in vain, if this is what Christianity is all about I think I am about ready to revert back to the world at least they did not know what they were doing so they had an excuse.

I will leave you with this scripture to ponder:
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (Galatians 6:7 KJV)

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving unless you have other plans.
Mr. Bill

Pilgrim's journey

I am a pilgrim
on my journey,
I leave the road,
broad and wide.
To the narrow way,
that leads to Zion,
no more sorrow,
no more night.

In your house I'll live forever.
In your house I will abide.
In your house I'll live forever.
Never leave your blessed side.

With the eyes of faith
I see that city,
Heaven's golden streets.
Where those I love
in Abraham's bossom
know joy eternal,
love so sweet.

In your house I'll live forever.
In your house I will abide.
In your house I'll live forever.
Never leave your blessed side.

I will not turn
my face away
from your loving gaze.
While your grace abounds
I'll keep on walking
and I'll serve you
all my days.

In your house I'll live forever.
In your house I will abide.
In your house I'll live forever.
Never leave your blessed side.

In your house I'll live forever.
In your house I will abide.
In your house I'll live forever.
Never leave your blessed side.

Transcribed from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15762&commentView=itemComments]Pilgrim's journey by Erin Alderson[/url]

I wonder if you have been drawn slowly to reason from the same thinking as those under whose ministry you have sat, whom recently you began to question? Jesus said 'even the very elect' would (definitely) be deceived. He said 'the deceitfulness of riches'; that the heart which would become (totally) unfruitful in this way, had been supporting 'thorns' when the seed fell into it.

Mike I respect you and your opinions very much and I know we both do both love each other and there has been times in the past you have stood your ground for me and I would never expect a brother in Christ to do this all the time because it would make you look like your on the fence and we don't want anyone to perceive us as fence straddlers.

Brother, that is a wonderful way of putting it and I concur wholeheartedly, it is one the pleasures of having you here, always has. You have, as you stated further on, always been one to take things into account and to consider them ... The effect of this draws I am certain others to do likewise, if there is any thing that I could pray for more of it is just this; to honestly assess, consider and re-consider rather than to jump to conclusions and presumptions, assumptions. I can tell you I have and continue to learn so much from all the things discussed here within that loose frame work.

Mike I am not condoning nor justifying nice expensive cars and homes and etc. for Ministers or "ANYONE" you can go back and read all my posts on this and you will not find were I have said anything about all this. This started out as a prosperity thread, prosperity more than likely has a different definition to all of us. Mike I am a little hurt that for one minute you don't think I have ever been were Jim ministers in the streets, did you sum that up because I am a member of Lakewood? Brother I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth during a 9 month period of my 34 year marriage my wife and I lived on the streets "sorry a few tears here" so I have seen the worst of the worst been there done that bought the shirt, please don't stereotype me with some's perceptions of the "Lakewood" crowd, by the way have you ever attended Lakewood even once? if not I would encourage you to do so "just once" you don't have to make it a habit just walk through the doors and feel the Love and spirit and "sincere" fellowship from the "diverse" crowd of folks that attend there. I feel it's wrong to generalize all the Church members to be like the Pastor or even go as for as saying we all support all of his beliefs I go there for the word and there has been "many" times it's only take a couple words spoken by God through Pastor Joel to inspire me and lift me for a season.

I read this yesterday at lunch and didn't have time to respond, but it stabbed me as well. I apologize brother, forgive me for the poor choice of framing my words, looking back on them they sound accusatory, trouble with combining generalities with ... appeals to perception? Think that was what I was after, nonetheless, very poor on my part.

I am really just about beat down here over the very loose words some have spoken here I can remember times here we all loved each other so much we would take a stand for them and minister them back to the Lord and leave out the name calling, but it looks like the doors of Sermonindex have been breached by old sluefoot himself and I bet he is smiling on us and a happy as a pig in the mud over the bickering here and the name calling.

Sometimes things are just left open for further examination brother ... It can be uncomfortable and I speak not towards any insinuation one way or the other. There is that first place that everything must start from and we know where that is. The words we choose, 'times and seasons', being led of the Spirit ... ramifications. Mentioned it before but believe there is much for all to consider. I am not quite sure this illustration is applicable but will just throw it out there ...

During the recent conference they gave opportunity for people to give testimony, pretty much whatever was on their heart. A sister got up and talked about how there was a disturbance at the hotel they were staying at (same one where I was staying), the police were called and apparently someone there was unable to pay for their lodging. I am repeating this from memory, forgive me if I miss some aspects to accuracy... Believe they (her husband and herself) went and bought some fast food for the man and then returned to the conference. When they got back they felt like they hadn't done enough, "why didn't we pay for his lodging?" It bothered so much they turned around, got back in the car and drove back to the hotel. When they got there, he was nowhere to be found.

That was the testimony, nothing else was really added by her, it was just left hanging in suspension and silence for all of us.

After a few moments Gareth came to the mic and mentioned briefly about this being a missed opportunity.

Would hate trying to dissect this too much, but am finding there can be a tension that is similar. After the testimony time was over (a redundant mention here) Gareth did ask us to go and find some of those very ones who got up and spoke, to pray with them, encourage them. In this situation and from what I could perceive of this sister from her heartfelt expression it would have been worse to come and say "It's O.K." when she knew and felt that it was not. What to do in a situation like that? It is neither to condemn nor to gloss things over. Just to understand often is enough, weep with those who weep. If anything at all it is a keying in on that aspect, to understand in difficult matters and still not have to relinquish into divisions just because a matter is difficult or make a compromise to appease. It is where I find myself here, where this whole thing started taking a slightly different turn from it's original content. Perfectly normal and quite alright, these are still discussions, they have a tendency to move in different directions.

Yes brothers it's a sad day when we can't even go to Church and fellowship anymore without the feeling of being a sinner just because of a Pastors actions but I will continue to attend there until "God" tells me to get the heck out of there at that point I will not look back.
I do hope the name calling and the continued put downs do leave some with some sort of gratification here that way it's not all in vain. Lastly as I have said before we all could do a little more Ministering to ourselves in the mirror each day.

Something again to be said for longevity here, it makes a difference just by way of past discussions, things not readily known to everyone else who may be of a shorter duration. Bill, what I mentioned earlier was entirely sincere being that you have been there some time and also draw from all the resources here. It was not an insinuation or accusation at all but a true wonder of how you process all of this. That in itself might speak quite loudly if we had ears to hear (now I am accusing! ;)). One of the great problems with much of our insinuations and assumptions is to forget that a great deal is still in process, hopefully in all of our considerations, how do we know for instance that even yourself have been wrestling with this for some time? Don't let me put words in your mouth and pardon using all this for everyone else, but you have already given place to consideration in your mentions.

To flip this around ... we can forget that often we are preaching to the choir or even mis-directionally, seemingly at random, maybe too generally, certainly guilty of this.

Well for all that rambling, it is still difficult. There is still an indignation at this teaching derived from the original post here. It broadened it's scope somewhat and where I would leave off ... indictments, a dangerous proposition, just as difficult to defend all in the name of camaraderie. That has and likely will continue to be a great assumption in these parts, to leave off something or draw towards another aspect is not an automatic assimilation towards defending an opposite preposition. Will admit this is something that has driven me nut's over the years here.

Others have spoken pretty well to all of this aspect, we have to try and realize that for the better part we are not at war with each other and do not need any more sectarian violence in this unholy 'civil' war, that great contradiction.

Still ...

Root matters. This 'teaching'. The ramifications that cannot be ignored. What prosperity is and what is not. Does it truly square with scripture and with conscience, reality, experience? Does it 'play' everywhere, in other countries and constitutions, situations and circumstances. Is it 'another gospel'? Is there more than one? I brought up the searching aspect of our [url=http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php]persecuted[/url] Brethren, could anyone, would anyone dare to speak exactly the same way with the same words and same scriptures the things going out across our airwaves and books ... to say the saints locked up in [url=http://www.writingireland.com/resources/WritingIreland_CorpBro2004$28outside$29_sample.pdf]storage[/url] containers in Eritrea for their faith? Or [url=http://www.opendoorsuk.org.uk/press/releases/]other[/url] unspeakable [url=http://www.persecution.org/suffering/countrynewssumm.php?country=United%20States]horrors[/url].

There is just something very troubling that we can turn a blind eye on all this or if at best given a token nod before we are quickly right back to ... justifying a 'prosperous' lifestyle and mindset when our own [i]family[/i] members are being slaughtered for a faith that some of these ministers would have us believe is for our comfort and gain. It just doesn't compute. And to think this is just one aspect, it has already been expressed just what this whole thing can do even in locally and more personally.

I have absorbed a great deal of all the aforementioned 'teaching' and the vernacular used is such a redundancy and contortion it is enough to make one ill every time it is heard. It is no different from the 'prophetic' movement and it's nonsense and nonsensical aberrations and speaking predictions of releasing this that and the other all supposedly from the mouth of God Himself. God wants you blessed, no, He wants you miserable. He is going to destroy the economy, no, He is sending showers of 'blessings' in 'this season'. There is an 'anointing' coming, there is a collapse coming. "God told me _____". "Prove me wrong!"

I relent, it is difficult to speak to everything all at once. There is just something rather odd happening with all of this, find most of it sheer rubbish and nonsense, speculative at best, confused and muddy at worst. What I keep finding is surprises at every turn. Surprised at my own stupidity, surprised that I think I might have something pretty well understood and then recognize I am missing a great deal. Surprised by what prayer does and what it does not. Surprised when I am paying closer attention to those subtle promptings of the Spirit that seem quite contrary to a quick principle I could latch unto, one verse seemingly canceling out another in any given situation. Surprised how often the intimations are more along the lines of "keep your mouth shut", "Not now". "Hold your peace". The greatest of these and the challenge of the flesh ...

Wait.

This seems more like something of a journal entry and a ramble. Will beg off and get back to what I ought to be more preoccupied with, prayer. One last burst, since it is still percolating. This matter of prosperity and giving. The ideals and contortions of the scriptures have been so entrenched and mis-used it is just incredible. "Tithing" has been abused and convoluted so much that it is with great reluctance to even bring the word out. The churches and ministries that have propped themselves up underneath this and are abusing it, want to say it doesn't even matter what one holds to if it's 'for today' or not, it is well beyond the point and\\or the principle. Please don't jump on this, we have numerous threads and discussions on it. The point is in the manipulation and the other aspects of, let me just call it what it too often ultimately is, 'forced giving'. Something jumped up in the thoughts the other day; [i]To give is a compulsion, not an extraction[/i].

There is a root problem and I think it is ultimately in the teaching itself. Some of it is in-line and quite scriptural, yet still missing the greater point. The rest of it ... already over spoken to. It's wrong emphasis and over emphasis. What seems to be missing in all these things, in all these easy to believe mantra's and contorted understandings of prosperity is a changed heart. This is what the scriptures and all of the teaching of the prophets and of our Lord amount to. It has to be the constant emphasis and the first one. Still this day wants to try and do everything backward, eat your dessert 3 hours before dinner. Come accept the Lord and we will get you all straightened out. It really is an easy thing after all. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

It is a radical life to be under such true exposure, to be striped naked spiritually. To know that you are both under a microscope and a telescope. To recognize that you are both vile and ... accepted? I can only speak for myself but it is a constant wonder. The things scripture point to, are they more explanations of facts as they indeed are or are they more something of an attrition, 'this is what a good Christian does'? What I mean is, there is a great deal that is copied but not internalized. There is a lot of mockery and faking it out there, a lot of gliding past things to make them more plausible and easier to swallow. But reality is brutal, the very great line about fact's 'being difficult things' are made even more so due to our own meddling.

To get back to just the fundamentals of who God is and who we are. He is Holy and we are ... ? Proud, haughty and [i]sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing;[/i] ? It is easy to say, "that's not what I am saying at all" but do we prove it out with those greater expressions of mere words, our living?

The Lord has some very hard words for us;

[i]knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:[/i]

To the church He said these things, to the church!

Today is Thanksgiving out here in the states, thankful? Oh, every day is thanksgiving. Thankful for another shot after another repeated failing. Thankful for hot water and for a job. Thankful my precious cat didn't get flattened by a car last night. Thankful the Lord hasn't left me alone despite all my attempts and giving Him every reason to leave me to my own devices. Yes, thankful He saved a wretch like me! Thankful you all put up with this ..., this long winded, rambling and certainly full of contradictions and peccadillo's man, peculiar to his own self even within this whole little sermon\\treaties ...

Looks like my time is up, might we all bow our heads in prayer. Coffee and donuts will be served out in the foyer...

;-)

Thanks! Mike some food for thought and as always your words were from a person with a Sweet Spirit,
Thank you for the kind and encouraging words spoken by one of my spiritual shepherds have a Blessed day.
God Bless
Mr. Bill

dorcas wrote:
Yeah.... I was impressed at how much he believes himself, seeing as he doesn't have a qualification in theology or divinity...

Not trying to get too far off topic, but I am wondering about this.

Respectfully I have to ask. What does a qualification applied [i]from[/i] man have anything to do with anyone's ability to speak truth to the Church?

[u][b]John 7:14-15 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Jesus Teaches at the Feast[/b]

[i]Not until halfway through the Feast did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?"[/i]

I am not for the prosperity message, but one's education level based on school should not be a litmus test on who can and should speak.

The Lord provides all the knowledge that one needs to minister to His flock. To preach otherwise would be, in my opinion, unwise. Maybe I just misunderstood your comment?

In Chirst,

Christiaan

Hi Dorcas,

You know, I've listened to Osteen on a number of occasions and I really don't have to much of problem with what I've heard. Yes, we have TBN here and yes, he is on there with allot of the SI 'favorites'. Like I said, with what I've heard, I don't have a problem. It does lack some meat to it, but he is generally a very encouraging guy and tries to help his flock to live at peace with God, at peace with themselves, and at peace with each other.

You see it concerns me when, when we deem good preaching/teaching anything that lays a heavy burden on the flock. The 'whole council of God' is not always come out from among them and be separate. It can lead to Pharisaical attitude, thank you Lord that I am not like those compromising people. I fast twice a week, read my bible and pray every day, street preach on Fridays and care for the widows and orphans on Saturday and serve tea on Sunday.

Look, Christianity is serious stuff, there are people passing to a lost eternity every second, but as the prophet Isaiah says in the 40th Chapter: Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Isa 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins. Our sins have been forgiven our iniquity is passed. God is not angry with us anymore.

You see Dorcas, the church is His bride, and those that minister to his woman are charged with helping to prepare her for Jesus. I think that if allot of ministers actually understood that the church is his bride they would be allot more careful in what they say. This goes for both sides of the fence. She has problems, and they are plain, but to presume that this mans congregation are all still unregenerate sinners and acts like a whore is total and utter speculation. The fact that he speaks to millions of people, allot of whom, I presume are not even saved does leave himself open to soothing sinners consciences, when all they need to do is repent and get right with God.

Like I said, the guy is encouraging and if he can get his people to be more like Christ by exhorting and encouraging them like a Father (1 Thess 2:11)then Amen. A father doesn't always beat his children, neither does he scold them the whole time. If any man is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has passed and the new has come. I agree with him, live free, free from the bondage of living under the curse of the law, free from the wages of sin. Living under a open heaven where we do have victory in our finances, in our relationships, in our giving, in our sacrificing in whatever area. And what is victory? Living the life of Christ, knowing that there is a Father in heaven who could send down 12 legion of Angels if we asked (Mat 26:53), God smiles on you now as he would his own son. He was basically telling them lift your vision higher, put your thoughts in heaven, live, act, behave like people whom God is now made you to be. If you are thinking that this humanistic, please, please read the whole bible, not just those bits that condemn sin and selfishness, but the bits about what God thinks about his church. Not once am I implying that we are God or have any source of life other that God himself.

We are children of God, and has chosen us since the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of his Son. That is high calling, we are nothing without him in us. I am not talking about people who don't God, I am talking about born again believers in Jesus Christ, new creations. This is what is so perturbing about this video. This man was talking to his church, Jesus' bride. He wasn't standing on street corner trying to get converts to Christ and confronting them continually with the failings against Gods standard. If you want to go to a church where you are continually told that you are a good for nothing sinner, then please go by all means. If that makes you feel like you are getting closer to God or living the correct Christian lifestyle, please don't stop. Don't for one minute think that preaching the word doesn't constitute encouraging God's people to live better.

I personally have a huge problem with modern evangelical methods, hence the Walter Chantry bump. We can't get people to live for Christ when they are still dead in their sins. Once a person is saved, however, things change. There is a new life in them, his life, his DNA, his power, his wisdom. This is not an ethereal fantasy, this is God our Father living in us by His Holy Spirit through the living word Jesus Christ. Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, tell her, her iniquity is passed. The church as a whole does need to repent for allowing other things to steal her affection from Christ, but to lambaste a man in this way is just propaganda. To presume that this man and his church are still unregenerate sinners is speculative gossip.

It is unfortunate that his books don't confront the unredeemed, which is a blight against him, because as the word says, there is no rest for the wicked. I think that writing the book the way he has, has given false comfort and hope to people who just need Jesus. Yes, he does compromise his belief and in an attempt to bring unity with folk. Yes he does sacrifice, publicly, doctrinal correctness in an attempt to be all inclusive, but from what I've heard its in an attempt to win people to Christ at any cost. It is unfortunate that he would not have been a bit more careful in the things that he has said publicly. But as the word says, when words are many, sin is not far behind.

Heck I am still waiting here patiently for all those folks that have slammed Pastor Joel to post there Church and Pastor names here, if were going to dig up some dirt or wrong doings lets not discriminate?
And as I said if they refuse or don't post my request they "must" have something to hide, are they are being just a plain old hypocrite. :-)

dorcas wrote:
Hi Miccah,

I don't think you misunderstood me but I'm indebted to a comment in the sermon Carter Conlon preached (The Image of God) just before the Revival Conference, for bringing a clearer focus on the matter of [i]calling[/i].

I agree that no-one needs a formal qualification [b]if[/b] one is being taught of God [i]and[/i] one is [u]called[/u] of God, and this is one of the most wonderful things about scripture, and the illumination of it by the Holy Spirit. But, to be able to dispose of false doctrine, one must have an understanding of true doctrine from scripture. That was the thing I didn't attempt to put my finger on in the post you quoted. (Sorry)

I was thinking that if Mr Osteen had gone through those study hoops, he'd be less dangerous... maybe even, he would have had the courage to walk away for the sake of his own soul, understanding that he was being tempted to proclaim a message which goes beyond the Book. I would have hoped he had wondered how heavy a millstone is, and whether he might ever wish to have one round his neck rather than face the wrath of God. Does popular assent = call?

Not to dampen his proclamation of the victory of Christ... but that victory has nothing to do with becoming materially prosperous - either Christ, or us - as is clear from the letter to the Laodiceans in Rev 3.

Thanks for the clarification. I did misunderstand. I have to stop reading and posting at night :-)

Hi again everyone.

Dear Zeke, how are you? I was reading through one of the posts here and somethings you wrote really stood out to me. I would like to share some passages of scripture that come to my mind as I think of these things. I want to say before hand that I don't do this to provoke or be contrary. But I do think they are worth sharing here. First what you shared...

"It does lack some meat to it, but he is generally a very encouraging guy and tries to help his flock to live at peace with God, at peace with themselves, and at peace with each other."

"The fact that he speaks to millions of people, allot of whom, I presume are not even saved does leave himself open to soothing sinners consciences, when all they need to do is repent and get right with God."

What came to mind was some passages from the prophet Jeremiah. I think they are very relevant for us today. In chapter six he writes:

"For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one [i]is[/i] given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt [i]of the daughter[/i] of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when [i]there is[/i] no peace."

- Jeremiah chapter 6 verses 13 and 14(KJV)

And then in chapter 23 he writes:

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [i]and[/i] not out of the mouth of the LORD. They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you."

- Jeremiah chapter 23 verses 16 and 17

Zeke, if I may add here also, as I understand the scriptures, men and women must pass from death, unto life.

Thank you for taking the time to read,

I wish you all well,

Chris

When\\if I get to heaven, and (hopefully) have a crown to throw down at His feet, will I be able to look the saint beside me in the eye (ever) who was beheaded, or tortured, or lost his only wife and child in the hostile climate of a mission field when he was 24, or gave up the possibility of a lucrative career by answering God's call to serve in slummy parish for 45 years?

As much as foxes book of martyrs serves as a inspiration to many it can have the affect of giving people the impression that if you are not tortured for your faith or eaten by lions you are simply missing what God wants for you, and are simply not a true Christian. This puts folk in as much bondage as hyper prosperity. I know, I have been there, got the T-Shirt. The issue is, what has Jesus told you to do with in the context of the great commission. How that works out in my life and your life is entirely up to him.

At the end of your live can Jesus say to you well done good and faithful servant? For me its not what you may have done or not done or even what you have, the issue is, what has Jesus told you to do. While he never guaranteed our comfort he never guaranteed our discomfort. What he does ask is, put me first!

Its sad that prosperity is merely equated to financial or material gain and seems to be the only form of prosperity that people see. It seems that living a normal life in all quietness with Gods blessings is an sure indicator that you don't want to pick up your cross and deny yourself. This extreme is as bad as the hyper prosperity message which can't in its theology cope with the idea that you can suffer for Christ and still be in the will of God.

and never in all those reports, does material comfort feature as part of His promise to us for this life.

Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold [b]now in this time[/b], houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, [b]with persecutions[/b]; and in the world to come eternal life.

See, I even highlighted the persecutions bit. Just so you know I saw it. Lets live expecting the best from the Lord, and expecting that we can be blessed. But, lets also have the theology that says, no matter what, he is the Lord let his name be praised. He does what he pleases and works his plans out with every individual lump of clay.

If you recall John is the only one of the disciples who died a natural death, and even Peter questioned the Lord as to his final end.

Joh 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth.

We are his servants, and he has a unique call for all of us, whether its a Joseph who has influence in the highest echelons of government or Esther who comes to her position 'for a time such as this'.

I noticed an interesting thing in the verse in Luke.... that the 'good measure... etc' is a reflection of our own giving, and, Jesus does not say we will get more (actually).

Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

I am confused, what is he meaning then?

Let me finish by saying let God have his way in your life, don't box him in as to how you think that he works in our lives and the things that he would have for us. Because, as Jesus said, According to your faith be it unto you. 8-)

ChrisJD wrote:
Dear Zeke, how are you?

"For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one [i]is[/i] given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt [i]of the daughter[/i] of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when [i]there is[/i] no peace."

- Jeremiah chapter 6 verses 13 and 14(KJV)

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, [i]and[/i] not out of the mouth of the LORD. They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you."

- Jeremiah chapter 23 verses 16 and 17

To follow on from what you are saying about dead men. Are the men and woman in his church living covetous, licentious, GOd denying lives? Are they carnal, earthly, clouds without water for whom the blackest darkness is reserved?

That is what I am saying, I don't know the state of his flock, does anyone here know? Mr Bill does because he goes there and he's cool with the guy. There is nothing about MR Bill that gives it away that he is a cross ducker. ;-) So do I castigate a guy who chooses to speak this way to his church.

I do however know that without the mention of Jesus, sin and repentance you are creating a club and not an church. :-(

ZekeO wrote:
I do however know that without [b]the mention of Jesus,[/b] sin and repentance you are creating a club and not an church.

Hello Zeke, well stated! This is one of the signs of a club, or sign of the times about which Paul warned us:

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 [b]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;[/b]
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=mLYgcCHJh3U]Here[/url] is one perfect example of what you just stated in the above quote and the warning of the Paul fulfilled in front of our eyes. Give an ear around 1:56 min. And I think it is marvelous to see this man, the interviewer, who is probably well known wordily reporter, to see his discernment! Isn't that shameful to see the level of discernment in the world, and not to see it in the church?

Hi Zeke, thanks for writting back. I'm doing fair.

Zeke,

before this you wrote

"The fact that he speaks to millions of people, allot of whom, I presume are not even saved does leave himself open to soothing sinners consciences, when all they need to do is repent and get right with God."

[i]...does leave himself open to soothing sinners consciences[/i]

But Zeke, Jeremiah says

"...They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you"

But what is the message which we have heard from God?

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

- 1John chapter 1 verses 5 and 6

And John says also "...we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."

The whole world lieth in wickedness.

Mark records this, that the Lord Jesus said to both His disciples and [b]the people[/b]

"And when he had called the people [i]unto him[/i] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

- Mark chapter 8 verses 34-38

[i]...be ashamed of me and of my words[/i]

Chris

I just happened across this passage and would like to put it up here also. It is from Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. He writes:

"For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloak of covetousness; God [i]is[/i] witness"

- 1 Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 5

Here is part of the entry for this verse from Vincent's Word Studies, by Marvin R. Vincent, D.D.

"Paul says that they had not descended to flattery in order to make the gospel acceptable. They had not flattered men's self-complacency so as to blind them to their need of the radical work which the gospel demands."

The American Heritage Dictionary says the word [i]flatter[/i] can mean: To please or gratify the vanity of...

"Behold, thou hast made my days [i]as[/i] a handbreadth; and mine age [i]is[/i] as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state [i]is[/i] altogether vanity. Selah."

- Psalm 39 verse 5

" When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?"

- Psalm 8 verses 3 and 4

"Behold, the nations [i]are[/i] as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. And Lebanon [i]is[/i] not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. All nations before him [i]are[/i] as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity."

- Isaiah chapter 40 verses 15-17

Please Pray for me because I will be at Church in the morning listening to Pastor Joel I hope God does not take my salvation away because of this sin. :-(

His message will be on these scriptures he won't be dissecting them but just laying them out for us as a child could understand.

Deuteronomy 28: 1-14 assures us that prosperity is ours:

“And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.

Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.

Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.

Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.

The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways.

And all the people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the Lord; and they shall be afraid of thee.

And the Lord shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

And thou shalt not go aside from any of the Words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.

No Pastors names or Churches yet? :-)
Well God and I are waiting, lets not discriminate.

Hi MrBillPro,

I thought to mention here also that the chapter continues in verses 15-68.

I wish you all well,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
I wish you all well,
Chris

Thanks Brother Chris I will need it I hope I come out alive. :-P

MrBillPro, do you think that your pastor will be reading those verses also, verses 15-68?

Thanks,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
MrBillPro, do you think that your pastor will be reading those verses also, verses 15-68?
Thanks,

Chris

Don't know yet Chris but I will tomorrow but I am sure he will read those also hope it don't cause to much confusion, we did have over 434 folks give their life to Christ last week does their salvation still count if they got saved at Lakewood?

Hi Bill, brother,

This doesn't really seem necessary though I can understand the provocation. You come here, you go there, if there is anyone that could shed some light on it all it would be yourself.

But as was mentioned a great deal of the masses are able to attend as well though only partially, through television, it is a large and in the spot light situation they have there, so this shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.
I do recognize the difference however, the recent Revival Conference as much as I have and might pray that it somehow would get trans-mitigated through the web casts and now the archives ... It's just not the same. The people you know, the fellowship, anyone outside looking in cannot grasp whatever the atmosphere might be. But I do not think this is either unimportant nor really the issue and matter under the microscope here.

Have shelved a great deal, re-wrote it - tried again, started over, am reluctant, actually even the last long ramble, hindsight being that jewel that it is ... am remiss with much of it, still incoherent.

Had hoped in a long about way to redirect this whole thing back to it's origins, the first post and the situation there. Can't really stop what is in motion and that it turned towards being all about Joel ... I did think that ZekeO spoke pretty fluidly to this with some charity and it certainly gave pause for more consideration. It does get tricky when we are speaking in generalities and I am quite adept at moving between them unaware of how that might appear from the other side.

Pastors and Churches ... Names. Brother, you know who the 'usual' culprits are, the appealing to this form of teaching is branched out into all kinds of variables. The named church and pastor at the outset of this post was likely unknown to the vast majority here and I do not know that the issue is one of personal effrontery even if the name is attached and the name should be ... confronted? It's not something I am personally always comfortable with and the reason may have much more to do with losing the greater issues and aspects while the personalities and offending\\defending take their place, become the focal point.

A couple of thoughts from that which got shelved, interspersed and hopefully better spoken to;

Watched the video and thought it was awful as well, the 'close captioned" commentary making matters worse ... and certainly the spirit behind it, the motivation ...

Still, something about the idea, and it is common enough in many of the varieties of ideology's, teaching regarding ...

There is an idea forwarded that it is our muster and 'standing against' things (poor health, finances, etc.) that brings deliverance from them. This is still part and parcel of the same language, vernacular that is elementary of all the word of faith and prosperity ideology. Do we find these things explicit in scripture, even as principle of scripture? One reason for keying in on this is in just one example, don't let me make this all conclusive, just to ponder;

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

I did bring in the matter of our brothers and sisters under persecution because it is an important one. I understand what ZekeO mentioned, Compton has elucidated this point very well quite some time ago similarly. It is not to overemphasize or pit one against the other. The question is, does it wash? Does it "work" in China as well as America? Is there something wrong with the Brethren in other lands that they haven't merely 'laid hold' of their spiritual inheritance or haven't taken a "stand" against their perpetrators and persecutors?

Just attempting to cause some real thinking here, that's all, just some considerations.

Another clip from the notes;

Suffice it to say I have tried all these magic formulas and still ended up broke, the financial windfall never came, the "promised" house never materialized and the backslidden didn't turn around at my plea\\command. Neither did a whole host of other items and issues ...

That is a bit cynical but I am not expressing bitterness just experience and ... heartbreak. There is no getting around the ramifications of these things, there are far worse then my poor agitations.

One of the great problems with this is again it's murkiness, the fear is that we can play fast and loose with peoples [i]faith[/i]. What happens when they begin to lose it because the carrot is forever just out of their reach? It doesn't really matter if the point is overtly spoken to or not, the thought that "I must not have enough faith" is the voice of accusation, subtly or subconsciously.

This is not to overstate the matter. We are not exactly the devil's play thing either ... But look at our Lord, could we? Could they? These leaders and Shepperd's, pastors and teachers, whoever they are, whatever they are, whatever their true interior heart felt motivations notwithstanding ... their [i]lives[/i] speak. Their abundance and wealth and extravagances speak, the cars and mansions and on and on and on. The great [i]of course[/i] of the matter is
indeed, look at them! Of course they are "blessed", look at them, listen to them, listen to their teachings, read their books, listen to their messages, prosperity!

How did they get there? How did they accumulate all this wealth? Who supports them, who made them financially ... abundant?

Is prosperity wrong? Hardly! But this is a prosperity of largely covetousness, is it not? Take away the props of tithing "principles" and "giving" principles and what is left ... book sales, sermon series tapes and CD's ... what have you. It is a self fulfilling sort of prophecy and marketing, it's what the masses want to hear and they get it.

It has been a very long time, but does anyone recognize how ridiculously 'prosperous' our own site operator could be right now, even if he charged some ridiculous fee of say ... a buck a message?

Let me go on a bit since this sudden agitation is arising ... The recent conference was emphatically setup with a strong emphasis that there would be no emphasis on money. How contrary! How ... unbelievable? Has insanity pervaded the capitalistic mindset? It took a pause to even allow a collection to be taken up for the church that graciously sponsored the whole event and it was the right thing to do! But why the hesitation ... ? It is not difficult to see why, not in this day and this hour, not with the begging and cajoling and manipulation and fund raising telethons, laced with gimmickry and gadgets ... promises ... blessings ... snapshots of the same parsed verses of scripture devoid of their context.

The most famous of all verses;

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

And only a few sentences back;

Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

I want to ask out loud how do some of these people sleep at night? Too much? Too much to equate oppression with ... manipulation?

The reason we cannot get our heads and hands around true prosperity in this day is because it is has no foundation and no real understanding anymore. It is over abused, over emphasized, over the rails.

Zac Poonen spoke far better to the matter when he was here recently than I ever could;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15951]What Jesus Taught About Money[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15952]What Jesus taught About Money (Video)[/url]

Now that I have gotten this tirade off my chest, this is not to lay this it at any single one of these aforementioned peoples feet but all as it applies. It is to the greater general teaching and abuses that are inherent and to those bound up in it all. I am just challenging the perspective on all this, not accusing for accusations sake. Anything for some more serious and sober thinking that's all.

MrBillPro,

"Don't know yet Chris but I will tomorrow but I am sure he will read those also hope it don't cause to much confusion..."

Why do you think it would cause confusion, if I may ask? If someone believes that the promises which are contained there in that chapter apply to them, wouldn't it make sense to consider also the warnings as well?

I remember a while back that you were aksing something about the pastors that all of us sit under, I think? I appologise I do not remember everything that you asked about but as I thought about what you wrote here I thought I could share with you how the pastor at the Church I attend on Sunday mornings handles the preaching of the word of God. I do not want to include his name as I do not think that would be fair to him, seeing also how he has not attempted to be in the public view other than in the small congregation he pastors.

So anyway, each Sunday we have a reading from both the Old Testament and the New Testament along with the passage that has been selected for preaching, or rather expositing. These readings are selected becuase they have something to do with the text(s) that we will be focusing on. Actually, as far as I know, the pastor goes through the Bible, book by book this way. In the mornings he is going through the Gospel of Mark. And in the evening he is going through the book of Hebrews.

He spends the time set aside for preaching in going through and examining, and unfolding different things in the selected text.

Also, he is very dilligent in calling us to take heed to hearing in what is being read, calling us to remember that this is the very word of God.

Take care for now,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
I do not want to include his name as I do not think that would be fair to him, seeing also how he has not attempted to be in the public view other than in the small congregation he pastors.
Take care for now,
Chris

O thats right that would excuse him because he is not doing it in public :-( and you want to describe how your pastor teaches and not let us have the opportunity to judge him by researching for ourselves, yep as I thought it one sided here, only judge the one in the "public" view, good thing God Judges "all" not just in public view.

MrBillPro, I'm sorry you feel this way.

I don't think anyone else here has asked to know anything about my pastor, but maybe I could send you the name and address of the church I attend on Sunday mornings?

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
MrBillPro, I'm sorry you feel this way.

Chris

Don't worry about it Chris I don't need any pastors name here you just missed the message I will spell it out. Christians are often accused of being judgmental. However, what most people consider to be judgmental is merely telling others what the Bible says are unacceptable behaviors.

Christians tell others what the Bible says about behavior because we are commanded to do so, so that others may lead morally acceptable lives. However, we are specifically commanded not to judge the behavior of individuals for whom we do not have absolute certainty of the truth regarding their actions.

The Christian Church is to remove sin from within its own ranks first and foremost before condemning the actions of outsiders, this was my message Chris has your Pastor or Church remove sin from within its own ranks first and foremost before condemning the actions of outsiders? if so and it's pure with no sin well I am sorry carry on soldier.

dorcas wrote:
Dear MrBill,
I waited for Chris to reply to you, because I am surprised at the stance you are taking, honestly.

Surprised? I am the one that is surprised here, You know you got me thinking here, I am in the A/C and Heating business have been for 30 years, I remember one time I was on a call and was going into the home to check out their furnace I opened the door and their cat ran out and the woman's husband and I literally chased and looked for that cat for over 3 hrs and never was able to find it. Well we finally gave up I really felt bad because the lady keep telling her husband if we don't find that cat she was going to kill herself "Gods Honest Truth" and I told the man I am sorry but I truly believe the cat will come home but I also asked the man what if she kills herself and the cat comes home? he looked at me just speechless.

Here is my point what "if" pastor Joel by the grace of God or a miracle somehow see's how he has gone astray " and I personally see this happening I am a believer" and he decides to repent and get back to the true word of God and "if" your a Christian and believe in miracles you should be able to see this is possible, my Bible says all things are possible to him that believeth Mark 9:23. Now I have given up because of what you folks have said here and joined another Church and all my prayers for my Pastor and my Church are now in vain to me because I have left and I had little faith and I have listened to man and not God, wake up here! mercy folks you are so busy with your tunnel vision of my church and my Pastor you can't even see the big picture, all you can do is see is what is on the surface, were is your faith? And you know what? I truly do believe this is what Gods keeps asking me when I listen to man talking down my Pastor this is why I stay, I truly believe that Gods plans are at work at Lakewood but you folks rather than praying like Christians should be doing it's easier to condemn, I don't know who is ministering to you but your minister has some good old fashion house cleaning to do himself and get back to some good old Bible basics of Prayer and Forgiveness, Mercy and Grace. One man changed this whole world, the word says we who have accepted Christ as our Lord and Savior has the same power and more, so are you saying that I do not have the power to change the direction of Lakewood? if so please go tell God that for me will you, and get back to me and let me know what he says.

PS
By the way the cat did come back home and you know why? because of "MY" Faith.