Why does a Christian still commit sins?

Why does a Christian still commit sins?Some people may say "it's because we're still human", don't forget - Jesus was human!

Don't forget though, Jesus was also 100% God. Why do I still commit sins? Partly because it is my nature to do so. My flesh is so evil, so full of sin that it knows how to do nothing else. Continually through out scripture, we are urged to "set our mind on things above" "setting our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith, casting aside every weight which hold us down." I sin most when my mind is not set on things above. When I turn my focus off of the Lord and onto my flesh. Paul says in Romans that "the mind set on the flesh is enemies with God." A classic definition of sin is to miss the mark. I miss the mark when I lose my focus on the Father and the Cross.

Why do I still commit sins? Partly because it is my nature to do so.Is not the old nature / man crucified with Christ?

"missing the mark" may be a common definition of sin (sin being an archery term meaning that, before it was chosen in translating the Hebrew and Greek), but is it a Biblical definition?I think the definition of sin has a thread somewhere around here, but I thought I'd bring up the verses that I think help:Doubtful action:Romans 14:23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not from faith; for whatsoever is not from faith is sin.Failure to do right:James 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth how to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.Transgression of the Law (it's actually a kind of reverse definintion, but still):1 John 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.All unrighteousness (and how do we define unrighteousness?):1 John 5:17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death.As for "why do Christians sin?" Well, we're all still tempted (as Jesus was, and as James made clear that every man is), and the sources of those temptations might be categorized as: the flesh, the world, and the devil.Interesting question about why the flesh should have any influence, being crucified, but it would appear that the congenital depravity inherited from Adam does not entirely disappear upon conversion. I think some forms of the doctrine of Entire Sanctification include a total purging of this source of temptation.Anyway, being tempted is not sin, failing to refuse the temptation is. Why do Christians do that? The weaknesses and temptations do not force them to do so, and God makes a way of escape with each temptation (1 Cor. 10:13), so they can avoid sinning. Nonetheless, sometimes we get back into that old self-centered mode and sin.Why? I suppose because we want to. May we never want to.God be with us,-Keith

Hi Nasher,I feel you are like myself and others who are thoroughly sick and tired of sin. Some would argue that the 'old man' is crucified with Christ, but the 'old nature' (GK. sarx 'flesh') still remains. The 'old man' is your 'old self' who existed when you were dead in trespasses in sins. That person is crucified with Christ. Does the sin nature remain though? I would argue- yes. Some would argue no. I would argue 'yes' based upon many passages in the epistles that warn us not to sow to the 'flesh'- lest we reap corruption.As the debate on this topic opens again I would like to focus on the necessity of dying both to the 'law of Moses' AND the 'law of sin' which is in our members. Dying to both is the necessity. To be dead to sin is to be dead both to the law and the law of sin. Romans 7 and 8 deal with this issue. The law only has the ability to give our sin nature something to rebel against- though it is holy and just and good. For example: Why would a human being that is lazy by nature ever rebel against God when He commands that everyone in Israel must REST one day a week? Answer: Because God commanded it. It gives the sin nature something to rebel against- even if the commandment would have well pleased the 'flesh' (sin nature) to rest, it pleased the 'flesh' MORE to rebel against God. If we simply die only to the law and not the law of sin- we have erred into antinomianism. Getting together with saints who truly love the Lord and trying to submit to the Holy Spirit for understanding will help us all press ever more towards the 'mark' of perfection. Bro Ron Bailey has started a thread on Christian Perfection in the Church History section that will help us all sort these issues out theologically.In the mean time... lay aside every weight that is allowing the enemy to trip you up. Psalm 101 is the key here. Exercise your senses by not allowing the enemy to sow seeds of sin into your eyes and ears and other senses that conceive and bring forth sin. Take the way of escape when the Lord makes it. Remember, even Eve sinned without a sin nature. So did Adam. The enemy will draw your attention to forbidden things and then start lying to you. He does this with thoughts. If we do not bring every thought into captivity- the enemy will build those thoughts into imaginations (arguments) by subduing your conscience with lies. The conscience and the Holy Spirit are quenched off with lies. Just listen to your thoughts the next time a sinful thought popps in your head. The conscience rises up and the enemy has already precursered the sinful thought with an accompanying lie to numb the conscience. If that lie don't work- he sends the thought again with another lie. He will keep this up until you believe the lie and allow that thought to run loose. This happens over and over with more thoughts and lies until the enemy has built up imaginations (NIV arguments) against the commandment of God. They are NOT random thoughts and arguments either. They are 'wiles' (GK. methodia) designed for a purpose. They work together to form a formula for your fall into sin. These arguments can become so deceptive that they have become a stronghold (II Corinthians 10:4). What are the buildingblocks of strongholds? They are thoughts that are disobedient to the commandments of Christ that we do not take captive. We must keep these things out one 'brick' (thought) at a time. God Bless,-Robert

"Is not the old nature / man crucified with Christ?"The old man was; the old nature wasn’t. “Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, in order that the body of sin might be idled, (rendered useless, become of no effect), that henceforth we should not serve sin” Romans 6:6 [“idled” – like an automobile when the clutch is disengaged]My old nature, regrettably, is very much alive.

I’ve found Andrew Murray’s illustration of the ferocious lion with it’s keeper very useful. (However the whole process involves ABIDING by faith in a very real crucified, risen, ascended, glorified and living,Christ.)“But how is it possible that a believer, having sin in him-sin of such intense vitality, and such terrible power as we know the flesh to have-that a believer having sin should yet not be doing sin? The answer is: "In Him is no sin. He that abideth in Him sinneth not” (1 John 3:5b,6a). When the abiding in Christ becomes close and unbroken, so that the soul lives from moment to moment in the perfect union with the Lord its keeper, He does, indeed, keep down the power of the old nature, so that it does not regain dominion over the soul. We have seen that there are degrees in the abiding. With most Christians the abiding is so feeble and intermittent, that sin continually obtains the ascendency, and brings the soul into subjection. The divine promise given to faith is: "Sin shall not have dominion over you." But with the promise is the command: "Let not sin reign in your mortal body." The believer who claims the promise in full faith has the power to obey the command, and sin is kept from asserting its supremacy. Ignorance of the promise, or unbelief, or unwatchfulness, opens the door for sin to reign. And so the life of many believers is a course of continual stumbling and sinning. But when the believer seeks full admission into, and a permanent abode in Jesus, the Sinless One, then the life of Christ keeps from actual transgression. "In Him is no sin. He that abideth in Him sinneth not. " Jesus does indeed save him from his sin-not by the removal of his sinful nature, but by keeping him from yielding to it.”I have read of a young lion whom nothing could awe or keep down but the eye of his keeper. With the keeper you could come near him, and he would crouch, his savage nature all unchanged, and thirsting for blood -trembling at the keeper's feet. You might put your foot on his neck, as long as the keeper was with you. To approach him without the keeper would be instant death. And so it is that the believer can have sin and yet not do sin. The evil nature, the flesh, is unchanged in its enmity against God, but the abiding presence of Jesus keeps it down. In faith the believer entrusts himself to the keeping, to the indwelling, of the Son of God; he abides in Him, and counts on Jesus to abide in Him too. The union and fellowship is the secret of a holy life: "In Him is no sin; he that abideth in Him sinneth not”.”Excerpt from Abide in Christ: That You May Not Sin – Andrew MurrayRoger

The old man was; the old nature wasn’t.I like the way Watchamn Nee explains it. It really helped me "see".The Blood deals with our sin (what we have done), whereas the Cross deals with what we are. The Blood disposes of our sins, while the Cross strikes at the root of our capacity for sin.There is a difference between our 'sin' and our old nature that we were born into- "sinner", our Adam nature."I appreciate the blessed fact of God's forgivneness, but I want deliverance. I need forgiveness for what I have done, but I need also deliverance from what I am."This is why it is so important for people to realize that unless they "die" to self every day and carry their cross every day they will continue to FIGHT against sin with hardly any accomplishment.Dying to self every day is the key. That He may be increased and we are decreased!It is so simple but everyone trys to make it so complicated. So many people cannot overcome their sin and bondage because they are dealing with it in the wrong way.I recommend "The Normal Christian Life" for this subject. :-) (Edit: Abide in Christ is excellent too!)

Nasher wrote:Why do I still commit sins? Partly because it is my nature to do so.Is not the old nature / man crucified with Christ?I believe Paul is teaching the same thought but from a different angle in 1 Corinthians 1:4-9 "I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus. that yu were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord."Paul begins his corrective letter to the Corinthians by clearly defining the limit to which God gives of His Son to those who believe. We see that there is no limiting the gift of grace through Christ. Upon our confession to repent before God, we have all things available to us in Christ. Yet, as Paul continues, we find that few have matured in Christ. Few can understand the things that are spiritual. Most are living according to the carnal ways. When Paul speaks in other places that we have been crucified in Christ, that we have been baptized into His death, I believe Paul is teaching in like manner as he did in 1 Corinthians 1:4-9. Jesus gives the same promise in the story of the woman caught in adultery. After He deals with the Pharisees He says to the woman, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." Then Jesus turns to the crowd to teach this principle, "I am the light of the world, he who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." John 8:11-12I believe Scripture teaches that we are always given a choice to obey or disobey. The Holy Spirit is our light, He is our Emanuel. And as Paul writes in another place, "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:12-13. Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, yet it is we who are given the choice to obey. It is our responsiblity to put to death the deeds of the body. God will show us His light, we must choose to walk in it.In ChristJeff

Here's something more from Andrew Murray on the subject;I want to ask you, Can believers live a holier life than is generally lived? Can believers experience the keeping power of God all the day, to keep them from sin? Can believers be kept in fellowship with God? And I bring you a message from the Word of God, in these words: Kept by the power of God. There is no qualifying clause to them. The meaning is, that if you will entrust yourself entirely and absolutely to the omnipotence of God, He will delight to keep you.Some people think that they never can get so far as that every word of their mouth should be to the glory of God. But it is what God wants of them, it is what God expects of them. God is willing to set a watch at the door of their mouth, and if God will do that, cannot He keep their tongue and their lips? He can; and that is what God is going to do for them that trust Him. God’s keeping is all-inclusive, and let everyone who longs to live a holy life think out all their needs, and all their weaknesses, and all their shortcomings, and all their sins, and say deliberately: “Is there any sin that my God cannot keep me from?” And the heart will have to answer: “No; God can keep me from every sin.”-Andrew Murray from Absolute Surrender

Hi RobertSome would argue that the 'old man' is crucified with Christ, but the 'old nature' (GK. sarx 'flesh') still remains. The 'old man' is your 'old self' who existed when you were dead in trespasses in sins. That person is crucified with Christ. Does the sin nature remain though? I would argue- yes. Some would argue no. I would argue 'yes' based upon many passages in the epistles that warn us not to sow to the 'flesh'- lest we reap corruption.This is the area where we shall just have to agree to disagree. The bible has no concept of the 'old nature'; is a purely theological explanation. Nor is there a biblical concept of 'self' or the 'old self'; this is a purely psychological explanation. We are dead or alive, in the light or in the darkness, of God or not of God, in Adam or in Christ. None of these opposites can co-exist.Notice the combination of singular and plural in the verse 'our old man was co-crucified with Christ'. If we were speaking of an individual's condition we might have expected 'our old men were' or 'the old man was' but we get this unique picture of one old man who is shared by all of us. This is the 'ancient man' (literally). It is Adam and what he became as a result of his disobedience. It is the whole race of which I am part by first birth. It is the race under the wrong head; it is a mystical body that stands in contrast to the 'new man' which is a new race, under a new head. It is utterly impossible, as far as I can see, for a person to by under two heads at the same time or for the states 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' to coexist.The last time we discussed this issue you implicitly questioned whether I should be on this forum, asking whether other site users knew what I was preaching. So, please don't presume that you know what I am preaching until you hear me say it. The real question is how does a person come to be 'in Christ'? I do not believe it is by justification. Abraham was justified but was not in Christ while on earth. (although he may be now). The real difficulty here is that almost every word of an explanation would need careful definition. Regeneration, sancitification, in Christ, Spirit-baptism, all these words trigger historical-theological responses in those who hear them. The consequence is that such discussions generate more heat than light. As a simple answer to the original question 'why do Christians sin?'. I would give the answer: "because they choose to".

There are two completely different personalities working in every true believer. This becomes evident (to the believer) when God's light, which is equated with truth, goes into a man's heart, and exposes the darkness which is man's inherited nature, or the natural man. The man of the senses. 1 Cor 2:14The outer man, or man of senses does not receive the things of the Spirit, because we cannot even see light (truth), until we are in it.There is the inner man, and the outer man. The inner man, which is birthed from God cannot sin. Because it's His righteousness, or His light, and Christ (in us) who cannot sin.But the outer man cannot cease from sin, without the light. So, the only way the outer man can die, is by the gospel which is the ressurection.This is a daily death, or daily cross Luke 9:23 and I Cor 15:31, to the outer man, not a one-time walk down an isle to "accept Christ" triggered by soft music, momentary conviction and the soft words of some pastor giving an altar call. That is not it.Paul himself said I AM carnal. Romans 7:3-25 is the reality of every true believer. Anyone who says that they can live above sin, just commmited sin by lying. And agreeing to disagree is diorusso {dee-or-oos'-so},and diamerizo {dee-am-er-id'-zo} and dianomos.There is supposed to be no division of light within the body of Christ. The only way to sin (less) is to feed the inner man, and starve the outer man. But, we will always have some trouble in this flesh, anyone who says differently is just kidding themselves.

Hey NasherYou have a great discussion going here. When I read your question it made me think of the passage in John11: “8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? 9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.”It is impossible to sin while we are in the light and yet, to be a confessing Christian does not guarantee remaining in the light. Again Jesus said in John12,“35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.To walk (in the light) requires energy and investment on our part (prayer, praise worship). When you cease to walk in the light then you are in darkness, and you stumble. You would argue that we are justified by faith and not by works but consider James2, “26for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead”. So although you may be in the light for a moment, you must chose to remain in the light.Does this suggest spiritual death? I do not believe so because of what is suggest by the scripture, 1Cor15, “6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.” And sleep, in my opinion, is a cousin of death in this respect, when we are dead there is no light in us, just as when we are asleep. So finally to answer your question I believe that we sin when we have no light in us and when we are asleep (spiritually).James

Hi Inwardman, where does it say that a man cannot live without sinning once he becomes a Christian?Jude 24:Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy

Inwardman writes that we are kidding ourselves if we believe we cannot sin. (paraphrase) As I read scripture it seems clear that we are actually calling God a liar. Chapter 2:1 tells us John was writing to Saints (little children). He goes on to make a strong case that born again believers have His Seed remaining in them and that they cannot sin because they are born of God. Paul answers this by saying, "It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Not that he was not responsible, but that he saw the need to be delivered from the wretchedness of the body of this death. I John 1:8-10 (NIV)If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

I think inwardman actually said, "But, we will always have some trouble in this flesh, anyone who says differently is just kidding themselves."Christ's death and resurrection opened a way to living a holy life; and released us from the bondage of sin. Nevertheless, on this side of resurrection, in this imperfect body, I think it is fair to say that even Christians will experience struggles with sin.Is it possible to achieve "sinless perfection"? Maybe. But when I pray at night, I ask myself "what sins I have to confess", not "whether I have sinned at all."

Keith Writes:As for "why do Christians sin?" Well, we're all still tempted (as Jesus was, and as James made clear that every man is), and the sources of those temptations might be categorized as: the flesh, the world, and the devil.Interesting question about why the flesh should have any influence, being crucified, but it would appear that the congenital depravity inherited from Adam does not entirely disappear upon conversion. I think some forms of the doctrine of Entire Sanctification include a total purging of this source of temptation.Anyway, being tempted is not sin, failing to refuse the temptation is. Why do Christians do that? The weaknesses and temptations do not force them to do so, and God makes a way of escape with each temptation (1 Cor. 10:13), so they can avoid sinning. Nonetheless, sometimes we get back into that old self-centered mode and sin.Why? I suppose because we want to. May we never want to.I think this is a good summary of some of the issues. The question is why would we WANT to sin or more perfectly- why would a Christian be tempted to sin? Why the wretchedness? Why do we find another law working in our members? Are we not in Christ? Was Christ not sinless? Why then, if we are in Him, would we be tempted to sin? This issue in itself is up for debate; but, we all know that we ARE tempted to sin. We ALL must flee youthful lusts that war against the soul. We ALL must flee fornication. We ALL must lay aside every weight and the sin that does so easily beset us. We ALL must refuse to allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies. We ALL must get under our body and bring it into subjection lest when we have preached to others we would be disqualified (adokimos). If we sow to the flesh we will of the flesh reap corruption- but if we sow to the spirit we will reap life everlasting. We all must be sober and vigilant. We all must take heed lest we fall. These issues are so common in the New Testament that surely we can't miss them. Beloved, let us be the watchmen of our own souls. And again I say... watch!

We all must be sober and vigilant."Gal 5:16 This I say then,Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."Something about this bold type today :-)

What a great forum; already two of my favorite topics discussed! I am surprised nobody has brought up the passages from 1 John as a Scriptural proof of a perfect Christian life without sin. It seems most people who claim to be believers would rather focus on the passages that seem to allow unrighteousness rather than press towards the mark of the high calling of God through faith in the death of Christ, calling it their own, and by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross, all sin has been dealt with, including the very source and thought of sin, by nailing this old flesh to the cross with Christ. How can a dead man commit sin against God? Only by faith in the bodily resurrection of Christ, applying it to our hearts through faith in the wonderous work of the cross of Calvary, by applying that to our lives, by making Christ our life, we can walk with newness of life regardless of the flesh's appettites or its carnal agendas.Below are some Scriptural proof of the fact of a born-again Christian's experience of abstinence from sin. CHRISTIAN PERFECTION Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:6-9)Christians Are To Be Righteous If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:6) For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. (Matthew 13:17) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:20) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)If You Sin, It Will Kill You Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. (Psalms 4:4) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. (1 Corinthians 15:34) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (John 8:11) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:2) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4) But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out. (Numbers 32:23)The Blood Of Christ Frees Us From The Power Of Sin And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Matthew 1:21) For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; (Hebrews 7:26) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. (Hebrews 7:19) For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Hebrews 10:1) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:40) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. (Hebrews 6:9)Be Perfect Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (1 John 4:17) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Philippians 3:15) Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. (2 Corinthians 13:11) For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection. (2 Corinthians 13:9) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (1 Corinthians 2:6) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: (Colossians 1:28)Christians Can Be Perfect Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. (Colossians 4:12) Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith? (1 Thessalonians 3:10) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:17) Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Hebrews 13:20-21) But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. (James 1:4) For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. (James 3:2) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. (Hebrews 6:1-3) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48) It Is Possible To Be Perfect He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Revelation 22:11) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6:6-7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23) Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Corinthians 7:1) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (Romans 6:13) Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (Hebrews 12:14)Don't Worry If Someone Starts Saying They're Perfect, But Really Aren'tIf I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse. (Job 9:20) For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars. (2 Chronicles 16:9)---Now, after listing all these references, keep in mind this one simple Christian truth, reiterated by Christ in John's Gospel: if a man testifies of himself, his testimony is meaningless; but if another's testimony agrees with the testimony of God concerning one's righteousness, that you may consider as foolproof. Truly, only God can reveal how you can be perfect without sin; but that comes through faith in Christ's work done for us at the cross of Calvary for the remission of ALL sin, including the very thought of sin which begins in the heart (for if Christ gives us a new heart, why would we be worried about the old heart which God supposedly replaced with His?), as well as the power of God through the resurrection power of the Holy Ghost which lives within us. Only by the grace of God, received by faith in Christ alone, can we walk perfectly in love towards His holy commands.Love, In Christ Jesus,DannyPS Hope this doesn't confuse anyone, and if it does, please let me know quickly! I don't want anyone to assume anything incorrect concerning Scripture, so please speak up!

Bro Danny,You Write:It seems most people who claim to be believers would rather focus on the passages that seem to allow unrighteousness rather than press towards the mark of the high calling of God through faith in the death of Christ, calling it their own, and by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross, all sin has been dealt with, including the very source and thought of sin, by nailing this old flesh to the cross with Christ. How can a dead man commit sin against God? Only by faith in the bodily resurrection of Christ, applying it to our hearts through faith in the wonderous work of the cross of Calvary, by applying that to our lives, by making Christ our life, we can walk with newness of life regardless of the flesh's appettites or its carnal agendas.I agree with you in this. The issue on this forum has not been so much if we should press towards perfection; but rather two main things stick out to me:1) Does a Born Again believer still have to deal with the flesh (GK sarx. sin nature)2) Can a Christian move into a realm where they are no longer TEMPTED to sin.Question 1) My position is that a believer obviously must not sow to the flesh lest they reap corruption. Provision must not be made for the flesh to fulfill its lusts. Etc. Question 2) My postition is that "Every man is tempted." The temptation in itself is not sin, yielding to it is. We do not have to yield to sin- however, on rare occasions well saved Christians choose to or will to in a moment of weakness. Personally I do not feel like a Christian should ever yield to a "damnable sin"- or a sin which scripture clearly says "They that commit such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God." These things ought NOT to be named among us ONCE as becometh Saints. As for I John and like passages; most here would well concur as it is a great source for passages on Christian perfection. Where I part company with some is that we could reach a level of perfection that reaches beyond what the New Testament teaches. In other words we will never reach a place where we do not need to 1) Flee youthful lusts that war against the soul 2) Flee fornication 3) lay aside every weight and the sin that does so easily beset us 4) Exercise our senses 5) Take heed lest we fall 6) Die daily 7) Bring our body into subjection lest when we have preached to others we ourselves would be a castaway (GK adokimos; KJV; reprobate, disqualified, rejected).Welcome to this forum!God Bless and we look forward to your input!

q1) We must die daily, and by the grace of God, through faith in Him our flesh can be dead at the cross. This, however, is a daily committment, for His mercies are new every morning.q2) We are still tempted to sin, as was Christ Himself, but if we walk in the Spirit of God, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

NetpreacherThat was a very powerful message and I am grateful that you took the time to write at such length about this important topic; you did not speak of yourself but you had many scriptures to stir up the Spirit that dwells in believers. (2Peter1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.) I personally felt convicted. Perfection is indeed the target for all Christians, I think the Apostle Paul said it best in Philippians 3: “12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.”As our faith grows, we must approach the standard that Christ has set for us so that we may come to know the love that is of God. Whether we can actually reach this target or not is something might never know…perhaps, if there is one among us who is perfect, they may shed some light on the subject! I know that it is expedient for each of us to run the race with patience, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).Your son in ChristJames

Why do Christians commit sins? Because they choose to yeild to the nature of Christ in them. We are free in Christ but we must utilize or appropiate our freedom each and every day .

Where I part company with some is that we could reach a level of perfection that reaches beyond what the New Testament teaches.Hear! Hear! I agree with that statement in the light of this one:1 Peter 1:15-16But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.BTW, where it says "be ye holy", this is in the imperative mood, i.e. it is a command.

Question 2) My postition is that "Every man is tempted." The temptation in itself is not sin, yielding to it is. We do not have to yield to sin- however, on rare occasions well saved Christians choose to or will to in a moment of weakness. Personally I do not feel like a Christian should ever yield to a "damnable sin"- or a sin which scripture clearly says "They that commit such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God." These things ought NOT to be named among us ONCE as becometh Saints.Hi RobertThis James reference is interesting. The full quote is Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (Jam 1:12-15 KJV) Earlier James has said My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. (Jam 1:2-4 KJV)It might be helpful to identify the source of the temptation. It might appear that lust is the source. But is lust the seed or the womb? We have here, in James, a little biology lesson on the life cycle of a sin. It tells us that the ‘conception’ is the result of two factors; conception always is! The two factors are ‘his own lust’ and an ‘enticer’. The result of the ‘lust’ accepting the allurements of the ‘enticer’ is ‘conception’. Who is the enticer? I John tells us that the ‘practitioner of sin’ is ‘of the devil’; ‘of the devil’ is ‘εκ του διαβολου’ which means ‘the practitioner of sin has his origin/source in the devil. It goes on to tell us that this has been Satan’s character from the beginning; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1Jo 3:8-9 NASB) It would seem that Satan’s seed is present in every sin; one of his titles is the Tempter. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. (Mat 4:3 KJV) For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. (1Th 3:5 KJV) So Satan, or his agents, is The Tempter, the enticer, but what about the ‘womb’; his own lusts. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. is a categoric Bible statement, so would this include the Son of Man? (Now we are into deep water) Christ clearly had a Tempter, but where would the seed have conceived? I would like to offer a suggestion. Most people first reaction will be horror but please read on to the end before you summon the Spanish Inquisition. Christ had ‘lusts’. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: (Luk 22:15 KJV). desire is the word translated lust elsewhere in the New Testament. The word ‘lust’ does not always have a bad connotation in the scripture; For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (Gal 5:17 KJV) We have two sets of ‘lusts’ here; one ‘of the flesh’ and another ‘of the Spirit’. And ‘flesh’ itself does not always have a negative connotation in the scriptures.Here’s my offering. God created mankind with ‘lusts’. Powerful desires which are part of his unique human-ness. These were to under the direction of his God-conscious spirit. When he sinned he died ‘god-wards’ but the ‘lusts’ remained alive and well but quickly came under the control of another spirit. It is the same as having created a powerful tool to be put into safe hands which is now in dangerous hands. I have a friend who was a semi-professional rally driver. He usually has powerful cars. On occasion he has offered to loan one to me. I always decline. What is a powerful tool in the hands of one man could become a murder weapon in the hands of another. ‘Lusts’ for personal and racial survival were powerful tools but we now have a maniac behind the wheel.In the wilderness Christ ‘lusted’; And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. (Mat 4:2 KJV) and the Tempter knew how to ‘entice’ that ‘lust’. The ‘lust’ was not sinful, it was god-given, but to satisfy that ‘lust’ without reference to the will of God is to yield to the ‘enticer’. That Christ would not do.Here’s another provocation… For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Heb 4:15 KJV) If James means ‘sinful lusts’ and Christ was tempted in all points like we are where does this leave us in regard to Christ’s sinless nature? Unless, of course, temptation is not the enticing of ‘sinful lusts’ but just ‘lusts’.

Hello Bro. Nasher,When I consider the LORD I tremble and fear. I think that we could all agree that if God were to require us to be as holy as He is apart from the finished work of the Cross we will all be in hell soon enough. :-( Beloved, there will never be a day when any of us cease to need the blood of Jesus Christ. God is infinitely pure. He is "seperate" and "other" than we are. The majesty of God in all His splendor lies far beyond our finite minds and well beyond our grasp. What shall we answer our King on that day? Shall we declare ourselves to be worthy? Or will we shake and shutter in the presense of the one who could at once destroy our body and soul in hell? When we come into the presence of God we will not be coming into the presence of one like ourselves. I openly confess in the midst of some of the greatest times of 'perfection' I have ever walked in- free from the influence of secular TV, radio, magazines, etc. Bringing the thoughts captive in my mind and forcing them to the obedience of Christ. I am STILL unworthy. I, in myself am weighed in the balance and found wanting. I am undone. WOE, WOE, WOE is me. For HE is not just holy: HE is HOLY, HOLY, HOLY. Ah yes, when I survey the wonderous cross on which the Prince of Glory died- my richest gain I count as loss and pour contempt on all my pride. Rock of Ages... cleft for me..... Let me hide... myself... in thee. Let the water and the blood from thy wounded side which flowed- be of sin the double cure... save from wrath AND MAKE ME PURE! Since the time I was a child I have lived under a very strict version of Oberlin theology. I have lived under the constant threat of the fires of hell if as much as I had driven 56 miles per hour in a 55 mile per hour zone and in that moment were killed. The good folks that raised my generation believed in a holiness many cannot conceive. As children we were ordered that we must swim in jeans at summer camp (and it was not coed swimming either) and their parents of that generation believed that drinking coffee was sin. :-o No one ever saw my Great Grandma Amy Anne Vansel's wrists or ankles. When she would walk in the room I am told- your hair would stand on your arms for fear of God. Some took these things to great extreme and made them the criteria for genuine salvation. When I look at my heart I see an even worse problem. Just when I might think, "I'm just as holy as God" (sounds almost blasphemous)- I look in the perfect Law of Liberty and see what manor of man I am. Even as Isaiah I declare, "Woe is me for I am undone, I am a man of unclean lips and walk among a people of unclean lips." I cannot succumb to foolish boastings of the sort I must declare... Rock of ages- cleft for me... let me hide myself in THEE. God Bless,-Robert

Hi Bro. Ron,This is a real good point. I have seen that passage just as you pointed it out over the years- except I did not quite put it together like that in its fullness. Adam and Eve certainly did not need a sin nature to sin. The 'womb' as you put it (is that epithumia?) or the 'egg' as we might say combines with the catalyst (temptation) and sin is conceived. And when it is full term brings forth death. The great question for me is what then is the essense of iniquity or to be bent towards lawlessness? What gives temptation its strength. Is it safe to say that Adam and Eve would be just as tempted as we are if the walked among us now as they existed before the fall? . Why are there times do you suppose that we have to greatly resist the magnet grabbing the steel (so to speak)? Thanks for the input! -Robert

Where I part company with some is that we could reach a level of perfection that reaches beyond what the New Testament teaches.What level of perfection do you believe the New Testament teaches?

The great question for me is what then is the essense of iniquity or to be bent towards lawlessness? What gives temptation its strength. Is it safe to say that Adam and Eve would be just as tempted as we are if the walked among us now as they existed before the fall? .Hi RobertDid you notice that Gen 3:6 links 'desire' and temptation? When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. (Gen 3:6 NASB)The difference between them and us is that at the Gen 3 stage 'sin and death' had not entered the race. This makes their sin the more telling in that their choice was entirely theirs. The unregenerate now have the added weight of a 'spirit of disobedience' (Eph 2:1-4). What would have happened if they had resisted the temptation and availed themselves of the tree of life? I presume that they would have received God's Spirit and would never have had a 'flesh' that had known sin.If, very hypothetical all this, they were alive today in their pre-Gen 3 state but and not having availed themselves of the tree of Life I think they would have been more vulnerable than the regenerate now. This, of course, leads us onto what really happens at regeneration and what our expectation should be.For the regenerate his 'flesh' lusts are not free agents. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. (Gal 5:16-17 NASB) Interesting that the NASB has gone for 'desires' here rather than the KJV 'lusts'. Wesley's comment on this verse is That, being thus strengthened by the Spirit, ye may not fulfil the desire of the flesh, as otherwise ye would do. Most evangelicals tend to interpret it as the flesh ultimately having the upper hand; and the Spirit's desires being frustrated. Wesley, and I think Paul, have the opposite in mind.ps yes 'lust' is ἐπιθυμια: which the NAS Exhaustive Concordance defines as desire, passionate longing, lust

Hi bro. Ron and bro. Nasher,Bro. Ron's last post moves us into the area where I believe I can articulate my position on this. My pastor has preached for years that we, as Christians, are to live in perpetual holiness before God by the POWER of the Holy Spirit. If you are, "FULL of the Holy Ghost" you are going to be FULL of holiness (so to speak). Full in the sense- not how much you have of the Holy spirit, but how much the Holy Spirit has you. The Holy Spirit will work out His definition of holiness in our lives through perfecting holiness in the fear of God. That definition can be no other than the true expression of Jesus Christ. HE is our perfect example of Holiness. This process takes place as God writes his laws upon our hearts, on the very seat of our affections, so that we are changed into the personality of Christ. We are also changed into His image from glory to glory by the Spirit of God in our times of sincere prayer in the presence of God. Imagine a soft clay pot in the hand of the Master Potter- forever working to keep the moistness of the clay such that it can be fashioned and formed. Now imagine a little sharp tool writing the laws of God on that pot. Brushing His finger occasionally to erase where something was once written- that other hands had done. And in that place a new law written (you have heard it said, but I say unto you). Many things are upon our hearts that are NOT of God and they are NOT His personality. When we quench the Spirit- we create a hard spot on our heart- that will later have to be dealt with. I have to change metaphors at this point and refer to the pot as hardened (fallow) soil in need of being stirred up. The seed of God's word then can be planted again in that spot. Stirring the ground requires identifying the place of hardness and REPENTING- this has the effect- coupled with the remoistening of the ground (so to speak) with the Holy Spirit to allow that area of your life to bring forth the fruits of holiness. It was a light thing that God reached into the earth and fashioned man's body- but what about the heart? What about that inner portion of man that could either yield to the hand of God or rebel and be marred in the hand of the potter? Today if you will hear HIS voice HARDEN NOT your heart. That is a serious command and is a vital key to REAL holiness.Circumcision of the heart is the removal of the rebellion against God or the iniquity that was long the obsticle of writing on any man's heart. Sin was in the way. The uncircumcised in heart and ears always resist the Holy Spirit. Stephen said that their fathers the Israelites did it also. Unlike Abraham, who was willing to let God work on his heart- they HARDEN their heart. What happens? God is not welcome and He leaves. As Pharoah he hardened himself by making God not welcome and God answered by withdrawing His Holy Spirit's influence. The Israelites did not want to see the glory. Their deeds were evil. They could not stand the luminance of the face of Moses; nor could they stand on that day when those who sat in darkness saw a great light. They did not come to the light that pointed to Christ (the Law), but rather veiled it. That veil is still upon many hearts. What was it? They did always RESIST the Holy Ghost. They were a rebellious house. The Talmud is almost a commentary on how to systematically keep God out of your life- while it proports to speak for God and His word.What is holiness? It is the fruit of the Spirit in divine equilibrium. It is that attribute of Christ- that the Holy Spirit is striving to work out in us. We must have it. We must have Him (the Holy Spirit) and if we have HIM we will cry out from our spirit ABBA FATHER. And in that covering He does the work. My life is hid with Christ in God. I MUST NOT resist the Holy Ghost- or the work of holiness is over with no matter what I stop doing or where I stop going or any other outward thing. God REQUIRES that I yield continually to hand of the Holy Spirit.Any other thoughts or input?God Bless,-Robert

RobertW, I hear your voice, it is that of Christ. This is how Christ brings unity in the body. Holiness is not an option, it is the fruit of our relationship in Him. You wrote: "They did not come to the light that pointed to Christ (the Law), but rather veiled it. That veil is still upon many hearts. What was it? They did always RESIST the Holy Ghost. They were a rebellious house. The Talmud is almost a commentary on how to systematically keep God out of your life- while it proports to speak for God and His word."Amen Brother Robert.In ChristJeff

Imagine a soft clay pot in the hand of the Master Potter- forever working to keep the moistness of the clay such that it can be fashioned and formed. Now imagine a little sharp tool writing the laws of God on that pot. Brushing His finger occasionally to erase where something was once written- that other hands had done. And in that place a new law written (you have heard it said, but I say unto you). Many things are upon our hearts that are NOT of God and they are NOT His personality. When we quench the Spirit- we create a hard spot on our heart- that will later have to be dealt with. I have to change metaphors at this point and refer to the pot as hardened (fallow) soil in need of being stirred up. The seed of God's word then can be planted again in that spot. Stirring the ground requires identifying the place of hardness and REPENTING- this has the effect- coupled with the remoistening of the ground (so to speak) with the Holy Spirit to allow that area of your life to bring forth the fruits of holiness.How do we square this with the promise of the New Covenant that God would remove the stone heart and replace it with a heart of flesh?A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (Eze 36:26 KJV) This depicts the removal of the old and the creation of the new. There is never a stage during which they co-exist.

Good point Bro. Ron,Ah, this is true we must have a new heart. The New Covenant comes with a fresh new heart. :-) The old heart is hardened beyond repair. There is no reform for it. It must be replaced. Surely they could not exist together at the same time either. The new heart is the one for which must be written on. (Jeremiah 31:33). I think we are starting to discover something more now.Help me think through this. So we know we have a new heart. We know that God is putting His laws in it and our minds. We know we are free from sin indeed. So the question becomes is the old Man absolutely annhilated by the our death to it- or is death in that sense mean 'seperation?' Do we have to keep dying to the old man or is the old man and all the characteristics of the flesh annhilated?Any thoughts?God Bless,-Robert

"Beware brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3:12-13"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." James 1:13-14Only by grace through faith are we saved from our carnal ways. Only abiding in Him through whom all grace flows do we have access into His grace. It is our choice to follow Him or our own desires. Both the writer of Hebrews and James describe the heart that has been softened and yet it can grow hard again. In ChristJeff

So the question becomes is the old Man absolutely annhilated by the our death to it- or is death in that sense mean 'seperation?' Do we have to keep dying to the old man or is the old man and all the characteristics of the flesh annhilated?Any thoughts?Yes, one or two... The Old Man

Good post by the way.So we see then the old man (ancient man) deals with mankind in general it will naturally lend to all who are in Christ partaking of all that He did and is in terms of God's requirements towards us. As in we were chose in HIM before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. To this point everything is real clear.The question in my mind is what is it that seems to pull us away from this calling to begin to think and to act carnally? I understand this issues of imputed righteousness, etc. But how does that play out in terms of our inward inclinations that seem to be at war with each other?Thanks!-Robert

The question in my mind is what is it that seems to pull us away from this calling to begin to think and to act carnally? I understand this issues of imputed righteousness, etc. But how does that play out in terms of our inward inclinations that seem to be at war with each other?Now I think we have to introduce another term. 'I' I try to avoid using psychological terminology, so I am thinking about 'myself' rather than 'self'. There are two crosses in the New Testament. Christ's cross had to be borne alone. In that cross He was 'baptised into' something; this was a familiar metaphor of His. (Luke 12:50. Mark 10:38) Baptism is always into 'death'. He was baptised into our death; the death that had entered with sin by Adam's transgression. Paul shows His dealing with Sin and Death in Romans 5:12ff. His cross also provided the substitutionary sacrifice for 'sins' (plural); on the basis of this there is forgiveness and justification. His death, without our contribution, secured all this which is available to those who believe into Him. This cross was 'once for all'; it can never be repeated.There is another cross in the New Testament which is 'your cross' (and mine - it has my name on it). This is not His cross this is my cross, and this I must take up daily, denying myself. This 'myself' (not His 'lusts') also came under temptation through Peter. Peter said 'Pity thyself' and Christ rebuked him, saying that Peter was the trigger of a trap which would have trapped Him if He had not rejected Peter's 'kind words'. Christ had no 'inward inclinations that seem to be at war with each other' and yet He came under fierce temptations to satisfy his strong desires without reference to the will of God in the wilderness, and fierce temptations to insist upon His 'right to himself'through Peter. A man or a woman who is baptised (immersed so as to be united with) in Christ becomes one with Him. From this moment the reality of Christ's death and resurrection becomes real in the believer, and he must 'reckon himself' to be dead indeed... He must align his thinking (reckoning) with 'the truth as it is in Christ Jesus'. This is not reckoning on the strength of a Bible verse, but on the conscious fact of his baptism into Christ Himself. (I am not thinking about water baptism in any of the above)He has now arrived at the 'beginning'! Now he can (and must) walk in daily dependence upon the life of Christ within him. It will be constantly tested.Netpreacher had some wise words on 'testimony' in this respect and it is inappropriate to draw attention to the servant but Paul speaks as one who had found grace of the Lord to be faithful. I will say simply that I am not aware of 'inward inclinations' or 'inward conflict'. I am certainly aware of conflict but my sense is of the battle being external. The armour of Ephesians would be of little value if the enemy were within.The old puritans used to say that 'you can't stop a bird flying over your head, but you can stop it building a nest in your beard'. I am often conscious of 'birds overhead' and like Abraham at times I have to drive them from the sacrifice, but within there is peace.I'd better stop and let you reply...

You stopped when I was listening real good. ;-) Maybe we need to understand more clearly why we are drawn away of our own epithumia. Maybe I have just got a lot of misconceptions I need to work through mentally. Some strongholds (as it were) of wrong thinking in terms of the warfare. The Armour is external- but the battle ground has always seemed to take place in the mind. I do agree that the temptations are external in that sense. Why is it that I love the Lord my God with all my heart, but at times have to fight off feelings of bitterness when people do me horribly wrong. Is it because the me that is supposed to be dead still has some sort of pulse? :-( I don't feel that any of the temptations are orignating within me- but there is something in me that wants to give place to things that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. Maybe I am looking at this wrong. Hopefully I worded the question right.God Bless,-Roberrt

Bro. Ron,I have given these things you have written much thought. I also went back and re-looked at the paper you wrote me. :-) I think I am starting to come into an understanding of what you are saying. I see this whole thing as an opportunity to grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus. It's kind of like in science class when we learned that atoms look like our solar system. That was only a way of thinking about atoms. It served me for a while to understand electricity, but the day came when I had to dig deeper and found that electrons exist more like a wave. In the same way I want to understand the dynamic of HOW and WHY we are enticed to sin from a biblical perspective. skandalon and skandalizoIf we focus on these words for a while it seems we (I) may be able to get to a better understanding as to WHY Christians STILL commit sins.Thanks for all the input!God Bless,-Robert

Brother Ron,I have read your thoughts throughout this thread and of what you have shared in the 4 chapters of your book. I see the distinctions that you have made. I understand and appreciate the clarity of thought in defining the old man. I see and agree with your thoughts on Adam. Genesis is God's view of His creation and revealed to us. I believe the work of Christ is to restore the relationship that was lost by Adam. I also see in Scripture that we are given the same choice as Adam had. What I mean by this, is that, we having been given the mind of Christ, having access into all grace through Christ, also have the choice to submit to His rule or to reject as Adam chose to do. In your writing, I have not seen your handling of this issue. Have I framed this correctly or have I missed and therefore mistated your position. If it is the latter, I apologize beforehand.In ChristJeff

Hi Jeff the Christian Perfection theme is still in its very early stages. We are are on section One which is the Diagnosis; I have yet to come to the Remedy and then its application. Sorry it is so slow but this is the advantage of the written over the spoken; there is time to build...This theme has slightly pre-empted the Christian Perfection theme, and I am trying to answer some questions slightly ahead of my schedule... It is like writing a novel. I am slowly laying the foundation, Chapter 4 now is still the foundation, but am being asked questions about Chapter 16! If I take my own route some of the questions will get answered as we journey.This is not a complaint, just an explanation of why my answers are a bit 'bitty'. The 'mind' is the battle-field, and we shall get there... DV

Hi Ron,Sorry, you know how us Americans are, name it claim it. I look forward to experiencing your experience.God BlessJeff

Hi Ron,Another question, there was a recent post:https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2357&forum=35&4If you have read it, is the basis for this warning flawed in your opinion?In ChristJeff

Jesus was God but He also relinquished that power to become fully human.He resisted the same temptations we have without that power but He knew fully what was at stake and what the reward was for enduring as He did. I agree that when we lose focus of God our eyes see other things and we run toward them. We will only become free of sin when Christ takes us to heaven, that is no excuse to keep sinning but the idea is through Christ to sin less and less.

Hey guys, that was an interesting group of threads. (in the literal sense meaning i was interested...)This is my feelings on the matter. I feel that the doctrine of grace doesnt seem to be taking what be of its rightful place. And I am not suprised that it isnt. It took me years to get to understand it, because it has been so skewed and abused. At first I saw it as a copout, so I couldnt understand it. In fact God had to practically beat it into me I was so resistant to it because it didnt line up with my understanding of the holiness of our God. In the end God brought me to the lowest point in my life, in which I had no choice but to accept it. It is still a difficult idea for me. Given that disclaimer, I will begin with sharing what I am confident of in hopes that nobody will think I am advocating sin, God forbid, literally..heheOk, so my first desire is to challenge the idea that we can grow to perfection. (Just to clarify, I have to cover stuff we all know to make sure we are all on the same page here, not to act like I am teaching it.) The moment someone makes Jesus Christ master of their minds heart and desires, it is the indicator have recieved the Seal of Salvation. At that point people know that God is wonderful. Worth more than anything on earth. They know that nothing even compares to God. Sin is not appealing. The only thing that makes sin appealing to us is that we feel somehow that committing the sinful act will somehow fulfill us in some odd insane way. hehe. God is so greatly wonderful holy and incredible. Not only that, we are aware of his ever powerful and ever heart melting love for us. We who love God, dont want to do anything he doesnt want. The truth of the matter is that no sin is worth it to us when we are in the right mind holding onto the idea of how dearly wonderful, pure, and glorious our God truly is.Temptation is the illusion that something could be greater at the moment than the dissapointment and displeasure of God.The truth is the displeasure of God, to even do something to slightly offend him causes us horrific grief!So like I said temptation is an illusion that covers up this definite truth even if it is for a second. We also know that God dwells in us to enable us be people who live lives of obedience, love and surrender through the Holy Spirit. This changes our minds to the point where the scriptures say Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. NASBWe are new because of the transformation of our minds. How we see God and others has changed and then we no longer act as humans think we are supposed to. Thats the therefore.Ok so now that everybody knows where I am drawing my conclusion from, I will share my idea on the whole issue. Everything before was just to let you understand everything about what I am about to type.Would anybody without pride or in their right mind choose to eat dog fecies over ice cream? (I know some people might do it for pride or insanity :) Everyone in their right mind will always pick ice cream, even if they dont like ice cream! Nobody wants dog fecies. But sin is more sickening than even that to the real us, the us that that will dwell in righteousness for eternity with Christ.Why then does a Christian even consider sin a temptation when we have the Spirit? If we had no emotions, and were all vulcans or something we would never make that descision. It is logical fallacy to consider sin a temptation at all. There is nothing good that comes out of it for it's cost, which is what does to the heart of our dearest One. That is too high of a price for the one who walks in the truth.The only conclusion then is that the sinful nature(or flesh) is that which causes sin to seem appealing. We all know that sin is appealing, and we know that this is something logic defying. Is it beyond God to remove this illusion that any sin could be worth the pain it causes him? No, he has all power, and this would be something so utterly simple. We would never sin again if it didnt seem worthwhile for sin is rooted in self gain. If it was no gain to us it would have no worth.So why does God leave us with a mind so warped that we would actually consider something as insane as sinning to be good? The only answer I have seen him give us, is "my grace is sufficient for you. My power is made perfect in your weakness." It is something confusing none the less, but if you can be tempted, that means something is wrong with your thinking, because it defies all logic. We all have something wrong with our thinking and it is the idea that we can gratify ourselves and it will be worth it to us even though it has such a great effect on our God.God has left us this for a reason, it doesnt make sense to me, but it is apparent that he does leave it. Sin shouldnt be tempting at all when considering a God as great as ours. But it is.All to and for HimJohn C. Kelly

I believe that the problem is a truth issue. It is truth being received at a heart level and not an intellectual one. An example of this would be in Galations where it says that I have been crucified with Christ, I no longer live but Christ...etc. The reality of that verse embraced in the heart would stop allot of Christians from sinning. I am using that scripture as an example, there are many others.You can get saved I believe in ignorance to the fundemantals of the faith- I am talking about an inward witness of the spirit, being saved- and not know what provision Jesus has made for the power to conquer sin by the cross.The truth will set you free. John 8:32

The truth will set you free. John 8:32Hi zekeOOnly if we obey it. The entrance of thy words giveth light. (Ps119:130)

Hello to you to,Is there not a difference between blind obedience, without the heart being involved at all and the 'life' of obedience which emminates from the heart?Is that not the hope we have of Christ in me the hope of glory(Col 1:27).

hi ZekeOthe full context of 'the truth will set you free' is very instructive. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? (Joh 8:31-33 KJV)it was addressed to 'believers' who, if they continued in His word, (remained in obedience to what He was saying to them), would be 'my disciples'. 'My disciples' is not an act of obedience, it is a relationship. On the other side of 'disciple' is the 'Master', and yet it was not imposed slavery but a free choice to follow.To those who remained as 'his disciples' he made the promise that 'they' would know the truth, and that truth would set them free. This is not academic or objective truth but truth personally revealed by the Master to the disciple. This kind of 'truth' between Master and disciple will liberate the doer of the truth.I added the next verse as a reminder that these 'believers' immediately opposed what He said and end the chapter with stones in their hands. (John 8:59)Masters never require 'blind obedience' from their disciples. This is 'relationship truth' not facts.

Amen to that, I have more to add, but I've got to run to Cell Group.Bless you

This is not academic or objective truth but truth personally revealed by the Master to the disciple. This kind of 'truth' between Master and disciple will liberate the doer of the truth.First of all let me say that what you said is quite a profound insight, for me personally anyway. Focussing back on the original question why do Christians sin, they hardly sit across the table and see the truth. In the light of that it makes sense to read Paul praying these wonderful prayers... that eyes of your heart will be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparable great power for you who believe.Eph 1:18 That out of his glorious riches he will strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ will dwell in your hearts by faith...Eph3:15-17As someone else has said, 'Sir, we would see Jesus.'I have not read the rest of the comments made in this thread, so please excuse me if I have covered thougths already expressed.Line upon line, precept upon precept.