Covenant

Could someone explain to me the covenant as read, to be interpreted from the bible?
God has a covenant through Jesus, what does this mean? etc.

Bless

Hi DirkW wellcome to this site.

I would like to ad just a few questions to your post, if you allow me.

You asked about covenant in Jesus( which I am guessing your are talking about the new covenant)

I'd like to ad the following questions.

To Whom was the new covenant for?

Is there any covenant specifically for us Gentiles?

How I, being a Gentile, would include myself in the new covenant?

I would like to know what people believe in regard of this topic.

God Bless us all.

Hello,

Thanks for your replies. I want to know what does this covenant mean for me as a gentile? How can I live out of this covenant? I hear several preachers speaking about the covenant and how it changed there life of walking with God, prayer etc.
Now I want to know...what is this covenant, how can it relate to my everyday christian life? What's the strength, the promise of this covenant? All Christ, none of me..?

the last covenant, Jesus made.

chandras wrote:
According to Bible, there are eight kinds of covenants.

That's interesting. Can you tell us about them? I would like to know.

Thanks.

DirkW wrote:

ould someone explain to me the covenant as read, to be interpreted from the bible?
God has a covenant through Jesus, what does this mean? etc.

jayyou wrote:

To Whom was the new covenant for?

Is there any covenant specifically for us Gentiles?

How I, being a Gentile, would include myself in the new covenant?

I would like to know what people believe in regard of this topic.

God Bless us all.

Hey guys, I'm not sure how in depth I should go here, so I am going to keep it very simple to start, and then if you want more information, just ask questions.

Ok, well to start let me tell you a little bit about God's covenant with Abraham.

Abraham in the old testament was a man who God made a covenant with that he would bless him and make a great nation out of him, and many other things.

God was faithful to do all the things He promised to Abraham, creating a great nation out of him, and blessing all of his descendants.

But what happened was that Abraham's descendants were not faithful to their part of the covenant, they disobeyed God, and acted wickedly, and as a result God's judgment came upon them many times, until eventually they ended up in bondage as slaves to the egyptian pharaoh.

God then because of His mercy sent a deliverer to them who would bring them out of bondage, this man was Moses, Moses was a typecast, or an example of Jesus Christ and the covenant that would come later.

So God delivered them from slavery by the hand of Moses, and promised to lead them to a great land, (part of His covenant with Abraham) but along the way, the descendants of Abraham (Israel) acted wickedly, and disobeyed God over and over again.

God gave Moses the ten commandments, so that Israel would see their sin and repent, but they did not, and so God did not let the disobedient ones enter in to the promised land.

God set the ten commandments as a standard that the Israelites had to fulfill so that they would enter into heaven, but they would not keep the laws of God, and disobeyed.

So God promised them another deliverer, that would make a new covenant with them, this deliverer was Jesus Christ.

Up until the point where Jesus came to deliver them, the nation of Israel had to offer sacrifices of animals to God, because without blood being shed, the Bible says there is no forgiveness of sin. So they always had to offer sacrifices to atone for the sin that they committed.

So when Jesus Christ came, He was fully God, and fully man, you can read about it in Matthew. But what Jesus did is He became the sacrifice for all the sins of man, His blood atoned, or forgave the sin of all men who would follow Him.

His covenant with men is that if a man will believe in Him, He will forgive their sins, deliver them from the bondage of sin and Satan, and give them eternal life.

It is not based upon the works of man, because the Bible tells us that even when we are at our most righteous state before God that our righteousness is no better than filthy rags.

The first covenant with Abraham was to the Jews, to Israel, but this new covenant is to all men, anyone may partake of it whether they are a Jew or a gentile.

So to enter into this covenant as a gentile, a man has to realize just how sinful he is before God, that he deserves the judgment of God for his disobedience, and that he has robbed God of the glory that God deserves.

It is not that a man is a good man or a bad man, but that every breath he takes if not surrendered to God is done in sin against God. A man must realize that God is holy, perfect, and pure, and that without Christ, we can be none of those things. That we are so wicked in everything we do that we do not even deserve to live.

That man must repent of his sin toward God, and he must put his faith in Jesus Christ that He is Lord, and that He rose from the dead after he became the covenant sacrifice.

To be apart of the covenant, you must serve Jesus Christ as Lord, that means you do what he tells you, you turn from sin and stop walking in it. That does not mean that we try to become perfect under our own power, but that we obey the voice of God.

So you must repent of your sin, which means that you turn from it, and you must believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, and surrender to Him and obey Him.
-------------------------------------------------

I hope that this helps answer most of your questions, feel free to ask questions about anything you don't understand, this is the best subject in the whole world to discuss.

Thanks a lot everybody. It's really usefull what you all posted. This clears up a lot. I'll study this and maybe I'll get back to this with other questions.

Glory be to God, amen.

Dear brother BenWilliams,

Thank you ever so much for your comments, However I feel like we should go a little bit deaper, if you will allow me.

You started with Abraham, so I will do the same, It is always good to start from the beginning.

Please in future replies it would be nice to see the bible texts supporting your comments.

God had a covenant with abraham,
Genesis 17:4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.

Here is the covenant that God made with abraham but if you look a bit forward God tells Abraham that there is a condition to this covenant.
He must do something, Here it is...

Genesis 17:9-11 And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 "This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 "and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.

So far, we have,

A Promise, a duty and a sign.

The Promise = Genesis 17:2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."

The Duty = Genesis 17:10 Every male child among you shall be circumcised;

The sign = Circumcision

it can also be made void =

Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

Let's move on onto the next important covenant.

Here in this One God start with the duties of the covenant.

Exodus 19:5 if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant,

The Promise = Exodus 19:5 then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.

So far we have,

Promise = Exodus 19:5-6 then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

Duty = To obbey the Voice of the Lord God.

sign of the covenant.

I believe that the sign was also Circumcision, for the children of Israel had to be circumcised on the eighth day.

and we know that in between God gave them another covenant,

The covenant of the Sabbath.

Exodus 31:16-18 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 'It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' " 18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

and God goes on saying,

Exodus 34:27-28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Later in Deuteronomy, Moses reread the words of the covenant,

Deuteronomy 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

And you can read the words of it on chapter 5, basically Moses reread God’s law or the words of the covenant.

Ok, I think we have established the Old covenant.
Now, We know that the old covenant was for Israel, the Ten commandments for Israel and although the Sabbath was a commandment within the Ten Commandments, God also Gave it as a separate covenant a perpetual covenant also for Israel.
And the sign of the covenant also was circumcision.
==================================================================================================

Let's move on onto the new covenant.

Jeremiah briefly talked about the Old Covenant and He used some harsh words.

Jeremiah 11:1-7 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 "Hear the words of this covenant, and speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem; 3 "and say to them, 'Thus says the LORD God of Israel: "Cursed is the man who does not obey the words of this covenant 4 "which I commanded your fathers in the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, 'Obey My voice, and do according to all that I command you; so shall you be My people, and I will be your God,' 5 "that I may establish the oath which I have sworn to your fathers, to give them 'a land flowing with milk and honey,' as it is this day." ' " And I answered and said, "So be it, LORD." 6 Then the LORD said to me, "Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying: 'Hear the words of this covenant and do them. 7 'For I earnestly exhorted your fathers in the day I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, until this day, rising early and exhorting, saying, "Obey My voice."

Remember about the duty of the Old Covenant.

Exodus 19:5 if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant.

And Jeremiah goes on saying:

Jeremiah 11:8-11 'Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but everyone followed the dictates of his evil heart; therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but which they have not done.' " 9 And the LORD said to me, "A conspiracy has been found among the men of Judah and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 10 "They have turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers who refused to hear My words, and they have gone after other gods to serve them; the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken My covenant which I made with their fathers." 11 Therefore thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will surely bring calamity on them which they will not be able to escape; and though they cry out to Me, I will not listen to them.

And we know what happens God punishes them by taking them into captivity.

Jeremiah 14:21 - 15:3 Do not abhor us, for Your name's sake; Do not disgrace the throne of Your glory. Remember, do not break Your covenant with us. 22 Are there any among the idols of the nations that can cause rain? Or can the heavens give showers? Are You not He, O LORD our God? Therefore we will wait for You, Since You have made all these.

NKJ Jeremiah 15:1 Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before Me, My mind would not be favorable toward this people. Cast them out of My sight, and let them go forth. 2 "And it shall be, if they say to you, 'Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, 'Thus says the LORD: "Such as are for death, to death; And such as are for the sword, to the sword; And such as are for the famine, to the famine; And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity." ' 3 "And I will appoint over them four forms of destruction,"

This is very serious, Do you remember when on mount Sinai, the people cast a golden calf and God said that He would destroy Israel and then He would make a new people out of Moses. And Moses pleaded with God and He changed His mind.

Well God was not open to discussion this time.

But again, God is love and He gets angry, He punishes us, chastens us but then He looks at us with love and then He always ends up giving us yet another opportunity.

Here is the NEW COVENANT.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Now, it gets very interesting.

Now, we know that they broke the Covenant by not Obey His voice,
By worshiping other gods and by breaking the Sabbath to name a few.

We Know that the words of the covenant is the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

New Covenant (OT)

So we have,

Promise = Jeremiah 31:33 I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Duty = Obedience to the law He is going to put in our heart and minds.
Jeremiah 31:33 I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts;

Remember that in the old The law was written on stones.

Deuteronomy 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

The sign = Circumcision.

It goes back to Abraham,
Genesis 17:10 Every male child among you shall be circumcised;

Now, Remember that when God talked to Jeremiah about the New Covenant, Salvation was only for the Jew. Not yet to the Gentiles.

Again,

New covenant for Israel and the House of Judah.
Ten Commandments also for Israel.
Circumcision also for Israel.

Now, Let’s forward it to the NEW COVENANT (NT) that Paul talks about.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Paul clearly says that the first one wasn’t perfect, but why is that?
Look what He says:
Hebrews 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah –

Now we now why the first one was not faultless, because there was a problem with one of the parts ”””Them”””. Not the Lord, but Them.

Paul goes on saying:

Hebrews 8:9-10 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Here He basically repeats what Jeremiah said.

I think that So far we have established

Old Covenant
New Covenant (OT)
New Covenant (NT)

So far we have this.

This New Covenant is still for Israel and the House of Judah,
This covenant still have some laws, for God said he would put His laws in our heart and minds, so I think it is pretty safe to guess that we have the duty of obedience, or hearing His voice.
And also we have the sign,
For if you are a Jew, you have to be circumcised.

Now Here comes the big Problem.

HOW I, BEING A GENTILE, INCLUDE MYSELF IN THIS NEW COVENANT?

I would like to know.

The promise of the New Covenant
the Duty of the new covenant
and the sign.

Anybody....

Dear brother dorcas,

Quote""" Now, the New Covenant is different, because it was made between the Father and the Son. """"

Dear brother, where did you get this statement from.

This is what my bible says:
Hebrews 8:8-10 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Unless I am very mistaken, It clearly says here that the new covenant will be between God, israel and the house of Judah.

Where did you get this statement from, would love to see the texts to support your note.

brother dorcas,

I asked:

What is the promise of the new covenant?

You answered

The promise of the New Covenant is the Spirit, by which we obtain relationship with Father in heaven through Jesus Christ His Son.

How do you back this up in scriptures?

=================================================

the other question was:

the duty of the new covenant?

Your answer:

The duty of the New Covenant is to enter the rest of faith (Heb 3:12 and 4:10, 11) by repenting and believing from your heart.

I read the text that you gave and It does say that if we want to enter God's rest we have to stop our work like God did on the seventh day.

However, what is your logic to link this text to the new covenant duty?

=================================================

The third question was, the sign.

Which to the old covenant was circumcision, and I also believe that to the new covenant is also circumcision, but circumcision of the heart.

You answered:

The sign of the New Covenant is abiding in the Vine (Christ) (John 15), for the bearing of fruit unto holiness - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, gentleness, meekness, faith, temperance - against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22).

You have listed the fruit of the spirit.

Galatians 5:24-25 4 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

We who live by the spirit, will produce the fruit os the spirit. I don't understand how the fruit of the spirit is the sign of the new covenant

Then you mentioned the circumcision of the heart,
well here you were spot on.
I believe that the circumcision of the heart is the sign of the new covenant.

then you gave this text, which talks about how one accomplish circumcision of the heart.

25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Questions:

How does the circumcised is considered uncircumcised?

answer is on verse 25

How does the uncircumcised is declared cirucumcised?

answer is on verse 26

This is the text the talks about new covenant.

Hebrews 8:8-10 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

I don't know about you brother, but I can find all the answers right here in this text.

Promise,
duty,
and sign,

Dear Dorcas,

Quote: """If you already have all the answers which satisfy you, why did you ask the question?

It seems to me that if you lay awake at night and contemplate how my answers might be connected with yours through Christ, you will have no difficulty in understanding my answers."""

I am sorry that my questions annoyed you, no intention intended.

I believe that this is a place for us to discuss scriptures, but I also believe that if one is going to discuss something, one is expected to point out and validate your points in Scripture.

Am I in the wrong to ask you to validate your points?

Say it, show it, and prove it.

Just one more thing.

"""""It seems to me that if you lay awake at night and contemplate how my answers might be connected with yours """""

Are we having a bit of an ego trip here?

I lay awake contemplating about your answers, come on, nobody's answers is particularly more or less important to me, as long as you can validate with scriptures.

Since you said all you have said I reserve the right to comment on it, but this is it, I will not go down this road of silly arguments.

This is what you said:

The promise of the new covenant was the Holy Spirit. Please show us.

The Duty is to enter the Rest By Faith.
Please show us.

Needless to say that the part os circumcision of the heart you got spot on.

How does the circumcised is considered uncircumcised?

How does the uncircumcised is declared cirucumcised?

Are these anfair questions?

And Please let's talk about New and Old Covenant, let's leave personal things out of it.

Hey jay, sorry I didn't see your response here, I think I understand better what you are asking, I wasn't sure how deep to go, or how much scripture you wanted, but I will do my best to answer it clearly, and with scripture.

jayyou wrote:

Now Here comes the big Problem.

HOW I, BEING A GENTILE, INCLUDE MYSELF IN THIS NEW COVENANT?

I would like to know.

The promise of the New Covenant
the Duty of the new covenant
and the sign.

Anybody....

So I will start with the promise of the new covenant.

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 11:26-27

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.[/color][/b]

Here Paul references Psalm 14:7

But the promise of the covenant is that God will make a person holy, and blameless.

Now, there are many other things that come along with this covenant, Jesus promises that you will never die, not physically but spiritually. But these are additional things that go along with the covenant, so I won't go into those unless you want me to. I will try to stick to topic.

First, the purpose of both covenants was to reach what is known to the Jews as "paradise" or to most everyone else as "heaven". But to do so, a man had to be cleansed of all sin, he had to be righteous in God's eyes or he could not be in the presence of God.

So in the new covenant, it's promise is that God will take away the sin of the people.
-------------------------------------------------

Now moving to what the duty of the new covenant is.

[b][color=FF0000]Acts 16:29-31

29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.[/color][/b]

Now just for a help, the book of acts is full of explanations and examples of how both Jews and gentiles partook of the covenant, and what they had to do to partake of it.

Here a man asks the disciples "what must I do to be saved?", in essence, "how can I partake of the covenant, what must I do", the duty.

The disciples response to the man is that he must believe on the Lord Jesus.

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 10:9-10[/color][/b]

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Here in the book of Romans, Paul explains it a little clearer, saying that a man must confess that Jesus is Lord, believe that He was raised from the dead, that you can partake of the covenant.

[b][color=FF0000]Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[/color][/b]

Here in acts we have another example of the duty when peter tells them to "repent and be baptized", (baptism in Jewish culture was symbolic of a change of beliefs and repentance).

These are just a few examples, but there are many more throughout acts and romans that expound on these simple things.

The duty of the new covenant is that you repent, and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, and that you confess it with your mouth. Baptism is not a requirement, as there are a number of examples where people were saved without it, or died before there was a chance for baptism.
-------------------------------------------------

On to the sign of the new covenant.

The sign of the new covenant is the Holy Spirit, this can be shown in Acts.

[b][color=FF0000]Acts 11:1-18

1And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

2And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

3Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

4But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

5I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

11And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.

12And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

13And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.[/color][/b]

We can see from this account that God gave the sign to the disciples when they believed, and He gave the sign to the gentiles when they believed. In the new covenant, God provided the sign.

So the sign is the Holy Spirit.

Now having said that, Paul counsels Christians to be circumcised in their heart, meaning to make themselves holy and set apart for the purpose of God.

I hope I did a better job with this post, then the last one, there is so much information on all of these topics, that it is difficult to condense them sometimes.

Dear brother Benwilliams,

Thank you again for your reply.

I just have a few comments if you allow me.

The Promise

Quote:"""First, the purpose of both covenants was to reach what is known to the Jews as "paradise" or to most everyone else as "heaven". But to do so, a man had to be cleansed of all sin, he had to be righteous in God's eyes or he could not be in the presence of God."""""

One could look at it this way. However, I believe that the purpose of the covenant on God’s point of view was to have a holy people, because He is Holy, so I believe that the purpose of the covenant was to have a people that God would call them His people and He would be their God. Not about what they could get out of it, but the fact that They would have the Almighty God, as their God. For some of them yes, one could assume that it was about what they could get out of it, but I believe that for some was just the fact that they would be able to call the Awesome God, their God.

So I believe that on the Promise side of the new covenant we pretty much agree.

The duty of the Covenant

Quote: “””””Here a man asks the disciples "what must I do to be saved?", in essence, "how can I partake of the covenant,
what must I do", the duty.

The disciples response to the man is that he must believe on the Lord Jesus. “””””

Ok,

Now, I have this quote from Jesus.

Matthew 19:17-21 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Here we have Jesus answering the same question that you mentioned in Acts 16:29-31.

He said, Matthew 19:17 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Now When God told us about the new covenant He said this:

Hebrews 8:8-10 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Now, Here we have God saying that He will put His Laws in our herts.

Question:
What laws do we call God’s law?
What Laws were written with His own finger?

Then we have Jesus saying that if we want to enter into eternal life we have to keep the commandments.

Question:
The commandments that He mentioned are part of what set of commandments?
Are they the same commandments written by the hand of God?

This is what I believe the duty of the New Covenant is.

If God promised to put His laws in my heart, I should assume that I have to keep them. Jesus said I should keep them.
So to me this is the Duty of The new covenant.

Now please read this,

Look what the David said about God’s covenants.
Psalm 78:10-11 They did not keep the covenant of God; They refused to walk in His law, 11 And forgot His works And His wonders that He had shown them.

Just like the Old Covenant there is a condition, and I believe that the same condition applies to the New covenant.

Psalm 89:28-34 And My covenant shall stand firm with him. 29 His seed also I will make to endure forever, And his throne as the days of heaven. 30 "If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, 31 If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, 32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless My loving kindness I will not utterly take from him, Nor allow My faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Psalm 103:17-19 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting On those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children's children, 18 To such as keep His covenant, And to those who remember His commandments to do them. 19 The LORD has established His throne in heaven, And His kingdom rules over all.

Now look what Daniel has to say about covenants.

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, "O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments,

As we can see, Not only God promised to put His laws in our heart but He has shown us that there is a condition to His covenants and as we can see His laws are always present.
=========================================

Now you mentioned
Romans 10:9-10

Yes we have to believe in Him, confess our sins and all that you have said, otherwise we do even have a part with God. We cannot come to God unless we come through Jesus, I just don’t see the relation to faith in Jesus in regard of Hebrews 8:8-10?

I believe that the new covenant with its promises and duties are all included in this passage.

Then you mentioned
Acts 2:38

I read the text and it clearly says:

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins

Very clear to me, Peter says:

EVERY ONE OF YOU,

Then in your comment you said:

Quote: “””Baptism is not a requirement, as there are a number of examples where people were saved without it, or died before there was a chance for baptism.””””

Now, you totally contradicted Peter’s statement.

We have Peter saying EVERY ONE OF YOU, and then you come and say:
Not really everyone, maybe SOME?

I believe that God is a God of allowances, and He will judge us case by case taking into account our circumstances, but to say that baptism is not a requirement, I believe that this is not in the bible and forgive for saying this, but this is man interpretation of the Scriptures. Even Jesus was baptized, water and spirit, and I believe we should follow His example.

Let’s move on to the Sign of the New Covenant.

As many of you said, the sign and the duty is somehow entwined.

We know that in the Old Covenant the sign was Circumcision of the flesh.

I believe that the Sign of the new covenant is also Circumcision, but circumcision of the Heart.

But How do I, a Gentile, Can circumcise myself without going back to the bondage of the law of ceremonies.

Here we have it.
Romans 2:26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

Let’s see, again we have the law brought back to us.

So it says here that, if I keep the righteous requirement of the law, it will be counted for me as Circumcision.

and Paul goes on saying:

Romans 2:27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?

Again Paul is talking about the Law. I believe this Law is the same law the God promised to put in our hearts. And if we keep and fulfill this law, then I do have the sign of the new covenant. Circumcision of the Heart.

So, How I, a Gentile include myself into The New Covenant?

Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

By faith in Jesus, and Resting my salvation in Him, I became part of His people. I now have part with God’s people and His love abides within me.

Romans 2:14-16 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Then God will put His laws in my heart and by me keeping them and fulfilling them with the help of the Holy Spirit, I just had circumcision of the Heart and therefore I became a Jew inwardly.

Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

So, Now I can include myself in the covenant that was between God , Israel and the House of Judah.

Hey Jayyou,

Interesting post, I do have a few comments on a couple of things you said, and maybe even a question or two for you.

In regards to the promise of the covenant, I was simply describing the purpose of it from the perspective of man. I believe the purpose of it from the perspective of God is almost exactly as you have described. "To create a holy people to bring Him glory."
-------------------------------------------------

Now in regards to the duty of the covenant, I am slightly unsure what you believe.

If you believe that there are commandments that we must keep, then you must examine all of what Jesus taught, and not just one or two scriptures, there is another place that deals with the issue of commandments.

[b][color=FF0000]Matthew 22:36-40

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/color][/b]

For the sake of space, I will not post this passage from all it's accounts in the gospels, but it does show up a number of times.

I am not a greek scholar, but I have done a little bit of study, and you will find that in this passage, or any of it's repetitions throughout the gospels you will find that whichever word it uses, where it says, "on these two commandments (hang) all the law and the prophets" that it literally means that every commandment, every word of warning, every prophecy ever given by any man are completely fulfilled by the doing of those two commandments.

The two commandments are,

1. Love God.

2. Love your neighbor.

This teaching can be seen to become the standard of all the apostles as they teach.

In John, who is known to be the closest to Jesus, who outlived all the other apostles, we find this exact teaching right here, where Jesus says something very interesting.

[b][color=FF0000]John 13:34-35

34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.[/color][/b]

So here we have Jesus telling the disciples that He is giving them a "new commandment".

It can even be argued from many passages, that the sign of the covenant, is the love for the brethren, but I won't get in to that, it's all throughout what John teaches.

Anyways, I'm getting ahead of myself, here we have two simple commandments, by which Jesus says a man can fulfill all of the commandments.

Fulfilling the commandments of Moses, is not necessary for a new testament salvation, if you really study the writings of Paul, you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law. A man had to have faith to be counted as righteous, that is why Paul uses the example of Abraham as the standard by which salvation is to be judged. Let me quote a little Paul. : )

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 4:1-5

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/color][/b]

Any acts of righteousness that we try to complete outside of having already obtained salvation, is not righteousness, it is debt, because it is done in utter opposition to the will of God, maybe not intentionally, but this is the example of scripture.

What did Abraham do that made him righteous before God? Remember that the law had not yet come, the only law that there was, was what Romans 1 talks about how God had revealed what was right by way of the conscience. It says that Abraham "believed" God, and that made him righteous before God.

Paul's whole point throughout Romans is "look guys, the way of salvation has nothing to do with the law, it is by way of believing that righteousness is achieved."

I paraphrased and summarized there.

Now you mentioned the issue of baptism, that is an issue of context, and comparing one passage to others, and to the whole of scripture. I did not undermine what Peter said, because there are multiple other times where Peter commands men to repent and believe, but without commanding them to be baptized.

Likewise, there are multiple accounts of the rest of the disciples commanding men to believe without saying repent, to repent and believe, to repent and be baptized, and also just simply to believe.

I already made it clear by what I said before, Paul says, "if you do this, (you will be saved). No if's and's or but's about it. He doesn't say, oh by the way, "you have to be baptized", and oh, oh by the way, "you have to keep all the commandments of Moses.

(By the way, there are 613 commandments in the Torah, which is the law of Moses. Paul fulfilled all of them perfectly, and said that even though he was blameless according to the law, that it was by faith in Christ that he was made righteous.)

So it leaves you with a choice of either you deny the issue of righteousness and salvation coming by faith, believing God, or you must accept what Paul and the others say.

The first man biblically recorded to be saved, did not repent, and was not baptized, he simply said, "Jesus when you go into your kingdom, remember me".

We can show from the scriptures conclusively that baptism is something that a believer should do if he can, but if you attempt even for a second to say that it is a requirement of salvation, I can show you a hundred examples of salvation without baptism. (Or at least quite a few)
-------------------------------------------------

In your last statements on the sign of the new covenant, I am slightly confused as I said earlier. Do you believe that it is by works of righteousness that a man is saved (fulfilling the law), or by faith in Jesus Christ?

What you wrote almost appears to be both, but I just want clarification please.

Thank you Brother for your reply.

I have to say that I rely enjoy exchanging messages with you, I think it is great that we can expose our doctrines differences in love and respect.

If you allow me to comment I have a few things to say about your last message.

Quote:""""Now in regards to the duty of the covenant, I am slightly unsure what you believe."""

In the new covenant we have the promise that God will put His laws in our hearts. That is my duty I have to keep His laws in my heart and in my mind. One can argue laws forever but I will try to explain to you what I believe these laws are.

I will probably repeat some of the things I posted before so please bear with me.
-------------------------------------------------

I believe that the New Covenant has the same structure as the Old Covenant.
The Promise
The Duty
The Sign

I beleive that in my past posts we have established what these are.

Now You said:"""""If you believe that there are commandments that we must keep, then you must examine all of what Jesus taught, and not just one or two scriptures, there is another place that deals with the issue of commandments."""""

You are 100% right, We have to read the Scriptures as a whole, One text on its own does not nulify others textx but it has to complement it.

You have given me a text in Matthew 22:36-40.
Where Jesus was asked about the greatest commandments in the law.

Matthew 22:37-38 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.

Now I ask you, Was this Jesus words or someone else's like Moses?

Here it is, but note that this Statement was made by moses just after rereading the Ten Commandments to Israel.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

How do I do this?

I think the answer is here.

Deuteronomy 6:2-3 "that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 "Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you -- 'a land flowing with milk and honey.'

According to this, they would receive the promise of the covenant.

No we have the same account in Mark 12:13

But a very interesting thing happened in Luke

I young man come to Jesus and ask Him about Eternal life.

Luke 10:25-26 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Then Jesus replied with a question?

26 He said to him, "What is written in the law?

Here we have Jesus refering to the Law and He asks the Lawyer.

What is your reading of it?"

and The lawyer gives the exact same answer that Jesus said in the account of mattew and mark.

Luke 10:27-28 So he answered and said, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

So To me, the commandments that Jesus refered in these texts are the very Ten Commandments.

For in another place it was asked Jesus the very same thing, and Then Jesus went on and named six out of the Ten commandment.

Luke 18:18-22 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

To my understanding this is the perfect formula for salvation.

To enter eternal life, I must:

Keep His commandments,
Don't have any love for the things of this World.
and Give my life to Him completely, by following Him.

Some people Read this passage and the first thing that they concentrate is the intentions of the Ruler. But I invite you to look at Jesus intentions. Whatever the intentions of the ruler was to me is of no relevance, but what Jesus says is. When Jesus replied He had no other intention than to lead the ruler into eternal life by obbeying the commandments and asking Him to follow Him.

=================================================
Quote:
""""In John, who is known to be the closest to Jesus, who outlived all the other apostles, we find this exact teaching right here, where Jesus says something very interesting."""""

Jesus Did not give a new commandment, In fact all that He did was to magnify the the ones already there.

I will give you an example.

This is how I see it.

The four first commandments of the Ten Commandments, talks about How we should Love God with all our heart, Remember, The greatest commandment?

the other six Commandments are guidances of How we should Love our neighbour.

Now what Jesus did was, He wanted us to look at some of these laws with a magnifying glass.

For instance.

Ten Commandments
Do not commit Adultery.

But Jesus said:
Matthew 5:27-28 " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Again,
Matthew 5:43-44 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

You see, Jesus was showing us that as his followers we have not only to love our neigbour which was the second greatest commandment but He wants us to go even further, and love our enemies as well.

And I tell you to love your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you and bless those who curse you, all of these can only be achieved when Christs love abides in you. And I am not ashamed to admit I struggle with these, but everyday with the help of the scriptures and the holy Spirit, I am moving forward and learning to love those who sometimes don't have the best intentions towards me.

What I want you to see is I believe that God established His Holy Laws and they are eternal, Jesus did not come to change or nullify but He came to magnify His Father laws.

=================================================

Quote: """you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law. A man had to have faith to be counted as righteous, that is why Paul uses the example of Abraham as the standard by which salvation is to be judged. Let me quote a little Paul""""

You are 100% correct.

Scripture is very clear in this subject.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

But One cannot Deny that in every act of faith was followed by an act of obedience.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Now let me show you this.

Here Paul describes what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

a lot of people read my messages and they come back to me asking why do you put your salvation in the law rather than by faith in Jesus?

I answer them that this could not be further any further from the truth.

It is because I have faiht in Him, because I trust in Him that I want to follow His laws, His commandments.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

=================================================

You then quoted a text from romans 4.

I particularly like verse two,

Romans was written because there were jews preaching to the new coverts that unless they were cirucumcised in the flesh they could not be saved.

When Paul refers to Justified by works it has nothing to do with the God's Law(Ten Commandments) He is talking about Circumcision, for they believed that they were justified by it, you could not belong to God unless you were circumcised.

The book of Romans is treating the problem of circumcision, nothing more.

Here is the proof.

One cannot live without the law.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,

For those who live without the any law will perish.

Romans 2:12 and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

Again, if you have the law but break it then you will be judged and you will perish as well.

but here paul says:

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

but hang on, what does paul says about justification by the deeds of the law?

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Is Paul contradicting Himself?

In one place he says that the doers of the Law will be justified but in another He says that no one will be justified by the the law.

Not At all, the law that paul is talking about in Romans 2 is the law that tells us what sin is.

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

Now the law the pauls is talking about in Galatians 2:16 is a different law.

to know that all we have to do is to go back to the beginning of the chapter. What is Paul talking about?

Galatians 2:1-4 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage).

What Paul was saying is that no one will be justified by being circumcised, remember that the sign of the covenant with Abraham was circumcision?

So for the Jew they thought that they were right with God because they were circumcised, and we know what Paul tell us.

Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

=================================================

quote:"""What did Abraham do that made him righteous before God? Remember that the law had not yet come, the only law that there was, was what Romans 1 talks about how God had revealed what was right by way of the conscience. It says that Abraham "believed" God, and that made him righteous before God."""

Abraham believed but also He obeyed and that was counted as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Abraham again was mentioned when Paul is talking about circumcision.

Romans 4:9-12 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Again nothing to do with obedience to the law(Ten Commandments) but the law of circumcision.

=================================================

This is the end of the first part of your message, I will reply to the rest of your message in another message.

Hey Jayyou,

I will wait for the rest of your response before I respond to this post, that way we don't get sidetracked from the whole of the discussion.

Hi brother Benwilliams, I have finished answering your message in the same message as before.

I just thought that I should reply to this point in a separate message because I thought it was important.
=================================================
You quote in a previous message.

quote: """""What did Abraham do that made him righteous before God? Remember that the law had not yet come, the only law that there was, was what Romans 1 talks about how God had revealed what was right by way of the conscience. It says that Abraham "believed" God, and that made him righteous before God.
""""

You see that is another mistake that a lot of people make.
The law had not being given as in the tablets.
Some people use this argument to refute the Sabbath Keeping, by saying that before it was given to Israel nobody kept the Sabbath, but the question should be, What is the proof that nobody kept it? But I cannot discuss the Sabbath here for I have gotten into trouble here for talking about this issue.

but

Now we know that throughout Genesis we have various accounts of Godly people that somehow Knew about God's Commandments and Here is the proof.

Abraham new about God's Law. He knew about His commandments, The bible doesn't tell us how He knew but it does tell us that not only he Knew it but obeyed them.

Genesis 26:4-5 "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Very clear to me Brother,

Abraham Knew and obeyed the commandmets, statutes, and laws.

God Bless you.

Quote:

""Genesis 26:4-5 "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Very clear to me Brother,

Abraham Knew and obeyed the commandmets, statutes, and laws""

Was that his salvation?

I see the blessings of this earth for Abraham because of his obedience, and the promise of the Seed (Jesus Christ)but I don't see salvation our new life in Christ which is heaven.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Even Abraham did not get eternal life by his faith in God, which was only reckoned to him as righteousness. There is only life in Christ Jesus and all Israel will receive that in the Millennium.

Our Righteousness is the Christ that is in us, not any righteousness or reckoned, attained by our own works.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

How is Abraham saved and how does he attain eternal life.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There is only eternal Life in Christ Jesus, not in the brass serpent.

John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Phl 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether [it be] by life, or by death.

Phl 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

There is no eternal life in the Law or the 10 commandments.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

How do we inherit eternal life? Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

My cross becomes His Cross and I must pick it up, in other words I must pick up the life of the Cross which is Christ Jesus resurrected to heavenly life with the Father, where He and those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, now are seated also.

There is only eternal life in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Dear Brothet Phillip,

thank you for joining us. I Feel I have to clarify some things Here.

1) This is a discussion about Old and New Covenant.

2) If anybody is preaching Salvation any other way than by Christ, Let him be known as liar and the truth is not in him.

The Bible is very clear, there is no other name is which we can be saved.

3) The law (Ten commandments) are the words of the covenants, It cannot save you, As Paul has said Himself, the Law is there to condemn you, Should you break them. The Law (Ten Commandments) are guide lines for us to demonstrate our love for God and for our fellow men.

Our civil Law estates that we must not steal, If you are not a thief, this law means nothing to you but a guide line, but if you steal something, the only thing the law will do for you is to condemn you.

4)The Law (Ten Commandments) is what makes us be dependent of Jesus sacrifice, Without the Law, there is no sin, without sin no need for a saviour.
How do you tell the unbeliever that He needs Jesus?
How do you show him that he needs to repent and turn to God?

Was Abraham a perfect Man? No. We know that there is no one perfect but the Son of God, We know that Abraham lied not only once but twice in regard of His wife and I could not imagine the consequences if someone had taken Sarah for himself, The little white lie would have been turned into adultery. So Abraham needed Jesus as much as the rest of us, remember? there is no one good no one.

5) I am certainly not preaching material wealth for becoming a christian, but I am not sure if that was the inference.

So Please, This topic is about the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Yes, Laws are involved in this topic, and that is why I have talked about them, I am not preaching salvation by law or by works of the law(which is clear to me that works of the law means Circumcision ) it has nothing to do with obeying the law(Ten Commandments).

Again, the question remains.

How I, as a gentile, include myself in the New covenant.
taking into account that the covenant was for Israel and the house of Judah.

Care to join us Dear brother Christinyou?

Dear sister Katy-did

in one of your posts you said a couple of things that are not really related to the new covenant issue but I thought it was interesting and I have a couple of question to you if I may.

Quote:"""AKA Abraham's Bosom. When Jesus died on the cross, and told the man next to Him, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise, tha was Abraham's Bosom. Those OT Saints are no longer in Abraham's Bosom, but are now In Christ, in Heaven. They have already died, so thy await the 1st resurrection just as we do."""""

My question to you is,

what about the saints that died before Abraham?
Where did they go? and what scripture do you use to back this up?

I know that in luke 16:23 Jesus talks about it but to my understanding that has nothing to do with the state of the dead, for some of what Jesus said is not actually real, it was just for illustration purpose,
For instance, I don't believe that there is actually communication between whoever is in Hades with those who are in paradise(abraham bosom) as you call it.

I had never look at this text in regard of the state of the dead, and always looked at it as in what Jesus was trying to tell us that scripture from begining to end points to Him our saviour and if moses writings could not turn our ways to find Jesus and love the lord with all our hearts then not even the dead coming back to life could do that for us.

The other thing, is this:

According to your theory someone dies and goes to heaven

But the book of Acts tell us something quite different.

Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Acts 2:34-35 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '

Now luke is telling us that not only He is dead and buried but on verse 34 Luke says that He did not ascend to heaven.

Now something is not right here, for God said:

Acts 13:22 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'

Now if DAvid, is dead buried and His tomb is still with us, and also he did not ascend to Heaven, what hope are there for us?

the other text is about steven,

Acts 7:60 "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

When Jesus brought the little girl back to life He told them she was sleeping.

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

=================================================

the second part of my question is,

Quote:"""" What God has joined together let no man put asunder......Once Saved Always Saved is you are truly one with Christ. """"

The point I am trying to make here is this.

Matthew 18:23-35 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 "And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 "But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 "The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27 "Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!' 29 "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 30 "And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 "So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 "Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 'Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

God will forgive our sins but if we do not do the same the debt is brought back to us.

The other text is the parable of the sower,

You know that parable so I will not post here, but my question is:

some fell on good soil, and they produce fruit.

Matthew 13:5-6 "Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 "But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

it tells me that some receive the word but we know what happend, were these ever saved at any point?

Matthew 13:7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

were these ever saved?

Would love to see your comments about this.

Dear katy-did

I will try again asking you the same questions maybe this time you will answer them.

Please forget for now the word covenant.

These are questions that are not related to covenants

what about the saints that died before Abraham?
Where did they go? and what scripture do you use to back this up?

Please, in your first atempt to answer these questions you just said that Abraham bosom is where the dead used to go, but where is the scripture that backs up your claim.

In scripture there is only one place that mentions Abraham's bosom, now what is your logic in regard of this?

I know that in luke 16:23 Jesus talks about it but to my understanding that has nothing to do with the state of the dead, for some of what Jesus said is not actually real, it was just for illustration purpose,
For instance, I don't believe that there is actually communication between whoever is in Hades with those who are in paradise(abraham bosom) as you call it.

I had never look at this text in regard of the state of the dead, and always looked at it as in what Jesus was trying to tell us that scripture from begining to end points to Him our saviour and if moses writings could not turn our ways to find Jesus and love the lord with all our hearts then not even the dead coming back to life could do that for us.

The other thing, is this:

According to your theory someone dies and goes to heaven

But the book of Acts tell us something quite different.

Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Acts 2:34-35 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '

Now luke is telling us that not only He is dead and buried but on verse 34 Luke says that He did not ascend to heaven.

Now something is not right here, for God said:

Acts 13:22 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'

Now if DAvid, is dead buried and His tomb is still with us, and also he did not ascend to Heaven, what hope are there for us?

the other text is about steven,

Acts 7:60 "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

When Jesus brought the little girl back to life He told them she was sleeping.

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

=================================================

the second part of my question is,

Quote:"""" What God has joined together let no man put asunder......Once Saved Always Saved is you are truly one with Christ. """"

The point I am trying to make here is this.

Matthew 18:23-35 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 "And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 "But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 "The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27 "Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!' 29 "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 30 "And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 "So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 "Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 'Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

God will forgive our sins but if we do not do the same the debt is brought back to us.

The other text is the parable of the sower,

You know that parable so I will not post here, but my question is:

some fell on good soil, and they produce fruit.

Matthew 13:5-6 "Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 "But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

it tells me that some receive the word but we know what happend, were these ever saved at any point?

Matthew 13:7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

were these ever saved?

Would love to see your comments about this.

Hi brother benwilliams,

I have written a message to you and did not get a reply so I decided to repeat the message so it doesn't get lost among all the other.

Here it goes.

Thank you Brother for your reply.

I have to say that I rely enjoy exchanging messages with you, I think it is great that we can expose our doctrines differences in love and respect.

If you allow me to comment I have a few things to say about your last message.

Quote:""""Now in regards to the duty of the covenant, I am slightly unsure what you believe."""

In the new covenant we have the promise that God will put His laws in our hearts. That is my duty I have to keep His laws in my heart and in my mind. One can argue laws forever but I will try to explain to you what I believe these laws are.

I will probably repeat some of the things I posted before so please bear with me.
-------------------------------------------------

I believe that the New Covenant has the same structure as the Old Covenant.
The Promise
The Duty
The Sign

I believe that in my past posts we have established what these are.

Now You said:"""""If you believe that there are commandments that we must keep, then you must examine all of what Jesus taught, and not just one or two scriptures, there is another place that deals with the issue of commandments."""""

You are 100% right, We have to read the Scriptures as a whole, One text on its own does not nulify others texts but it has to complement it.

You have given me a text in Matthew 22:36-40.
Where Jesus was asked about the greatest commandments in the law.

the second greatest commandments was to love your neighbor. but look what paul says in regard of how I should love my neighbor.

Romans 13:9-10 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

wow, paul just name half of the Ten Commandments.

Matthew 22:37-38 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.

Now I ask you, Was this Jesus words or someone else's like Moses?

Here it is, but note that this Statement was made by moses just after rereading the Ten Commandments to Israel.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

How do I do this?

I think the answer is here.

Deuteronomy 6:2-3 "that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 "Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you -- 'a land flowing with milk and honey.'

According to this, they would receive the promise of the covenant.

Now we have the same account in Mark 12:13

But a very interesting thing happened in Luke

I young man come to Jesus and ask Him about Eternal life.

Luke 10:25-26 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Then Jesus replied with a question?

26 He said to him, "What is written in the law?

Here we have Jesus refering to the Law and He asks the Lawyer.

What is your reading of it?"

and The lawyer gives the exact same answer that Jesus said in the account of mattew and mark.

Luke 10:27-28 So he answered and said, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

So To me, the commandments that Jesus refered in these texts are the very Ten Commandments.

For in another place it was asked Jesus the very same thing, and Then Jesus went on and named six out of the Ten commandment.

Luke 18:18-22 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

To my understanding this is the perfect formula for salvation.

To enter eternal life, I must:

Keep His commandments,
Don't have any love for the things of this World.
and Give my life to Him completely, by following Him.

Some people Read this passage and the first thing that they concentrate is the intentions of the Ruler. But I invite you to look at Jesus intentions. Whatever the intentions of the ruler was to me is of no relevance, but what Jesus says is. When Jesus replied He had no other intention than to lead the ruler into eternal life by obbeying the commandments and asking Him to follow Him.

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Quote:
""""In John, who is known to be the closest to Jesus, who outlived all the other apostles, we find this exact teaching right here, where Jesus says something very interesting."""""

Jesus Did not give a new commandment, In fact all that He did was to magnify the the ones already there.

I will give you an example.

This is how I see it.

The four first commandments of the Ten Commandments, talks about How we should Love God with all our heart, Remember, The greatest commandment?

the other six Commandments are guidances of How we should Love our neighbour.

Now what Jesus did was, He wanted us to look at some of these laws with a magnifying glass.

For instance.

Ten Commandments
Do not commit Adultery.

But Jesus said:
Matthew 5:27-28 " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Again,
Matthew 5:43-44 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

You see, Jesus was showing us that as his followers we have not only to love our neigbour which was the second greatest commandment but He wants us to go even further, and love our enemies as well.

And I tell you to love your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you and bless those who curse you, all of these can only be achieved when Christs love abides in you. And I am not ashamed to admit I struggle with these, but everyday with the help of the scriptures and the holy Spirit, I am moving forward and learning to love those who sometimes don't have the best intentions towards me.

What I want you to see is I believe that God established His Holy Laws and they are eternal, Jesus did not come to change or nullify but He came to magnify His Father laws.

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Quote: """you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law. A man had to have faith to be counted as righteous, that is why Paul uses the example of Abraham as the standard by which salvation is to be judged. Let me quote a little Paul""""

You are 100% correct.

Scripture is very clear in this subject.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

But One cannot Deny that in every act of faith was followed by an act of obedience.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Now let me show you this.

Here Paul describes what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

a lot of people read my messages and they come back to me asking why do you put your salvation in the law rather than by faith in Jesus?

I answer them that this could not be further any further from the truth.

It is because I have faiht in Him, because I trust in Him that I want to follow His laws, His commandments.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

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You then quoted a text from romans 4.

I particularly like verse two,

Romans was written because there were jews preaching to the new coverts that unless they were cirucumcised in the flesh they could not be saved.

When Paul refers to Justified by works it has nothing to do with the God's Law(Ten Commandments) He is talking about Circumcision, for they believed that they were justified by it, you could not belong to God unless you were circumcised.

The book of Romans is treating the problem of circumcision, nothing more.

Here is the proof.

One cannot live without the law.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,

For those who live without the any law will perish.

Romans 2:12 and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

Again, if you have the law but break it then you will be judged and you will perish as well.

but here paul says:

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

but hang on, what does paul says about justification by the deeds of the law?

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Is Paul contradicting Himself?

In one place he says that the doers of the Law will be justified but in another He says that no one will be justified by the the law.

Not At all, the law that paul is talking about in Romans 2 is the law that tells us what sin is.

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

Now the law the pauls is talking about in Galatians 2:16 is a different law.

to know that all we have to do is to go back to the beginning of the chapter. What is Paul talking about?

Galatians 2:1-4 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage).

What Paul was saying is that no one will be justified by being circumcised, remember that the sign of the covenant with Abraham was circumcision?

So for the Jew they thought that they were right with God because they were circumcised, and we know what Paul tell us.

Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

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quote:"""What did Abraham do that made him righteous before God? Remember that the law had not yet come, the only law that there was, was what Romans 1 talks about how God had revealed what was right by way of the conscience. It says that Abraham "believed" God, and that made him righteous before God."""

Abraham believed but also He obeyed and that was counted as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Abraham again was mentioned when Paul is talking about circumcision.

Romans 4:9-12 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Again nothing to do with obedience to the law(Ten Commandments) but the law of circumcision.

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This is the end of the first part of your message, I will reply to the rest of your message in another message.

Dearest Sister, Thank you for your reply.

I think this thread is to talk about the Old and New covenants and I feel we are getting side tracked here.

However, I will reply to your message one more time and then if you want to go on on the same subject I would suggest that we open a new thread.

Your quote:

"""""If we believe exactly as that scripture teaches, they were able to at least yell across to one another, as someone way saying " It's as Hot as Hades in here" ...go warn my brothers...something like that."""""

I am sorry but I found no scripture backing for this claim. The purpose of this parable was not to show us what you have just mentioned at all.
The purpose was verse 25 and we can see it clear when we compare it with

Luke 6:23-26 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets. 24 " But woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation. 25 Woe to you who are full, For you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh now, For you shall mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Now, there are a couple of things about Luke 16 19:31 that cannot be taken as real. One is the very fact that people in the so called Hades would communicate with the ones in Abraham's bosom as you claim. Imagine, for the ones that are in Abraham's bosom having to put up with all the agony of the people in Hades? Imagine all the people that died in the big flood screaming for them that are in the other side?
Not real, God would not put the saints through such an ordeal. Abraham's bosom would sound just like Hell!!!!!!

The other unreal thing is that fact that the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers. Now if that was true, One would assume that abraham could send people back from this so called Heaven at His will. And we know that it is not the case for we have the account of people who returned from their sleep as Jesus called it, but not because they were sent back from Abraham's bosom, but because someone that was alive received power from God to raise them up.

Now one more thing remains to be said about this text.
Is the fact that most of the churches nowadays, openly reject the writtings of moses as a way to lead one into salvation, some even say that there is no life in scriptures, Because Jesus said this:

John 5:39-42 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive honor from men. 42 "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.

Now to me the problem was not the scriptures, because Jesus said that these are they which testify of Me. The problem was with them, even though scriptures testify of Jesus they would not accept Him.

Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

So, at the end of the text Jesus said:

If you do not hear moses and the prophets, not even the dead coming back to life will persuade them.

Quote: """"One side of this was also given a name Paradise as Jesus said Today you will be with me in Paradise""""

I ask you to read this.

Luke 23:42-43 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

The thief gives us a better Ideal of the place he was aiming for.

When you come into your Kingdom!!!!

Look at this text in John.

John 5:24-28 " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice.

Who will hear his voice? all who are in the graves.

Now the Dead cannot be in heaven, because

Psalm 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence.

We know that in heaven the praises to the eternal God never end.

Jesus talks about the state of the Dead.

Luke 8:52 Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, "Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping."

And when I meentioned 1Corinthians 15:17-18 I wanted you to pay attention to """those who have fallen Asleep"""

Now if I die and go to heaven, David said that the Dead cannot praise God, and in unccountable times we read that the dead sleeps and that they will hear the voice of Jesus when He returns to

"""STABLISH HIS KINGDOM""" Remember what the thief of the cross said:

Luke 23:42-43 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

When Jesus said today, He did not mean that very day, for that day Jesus did not come into His kingdom, for His kingdom is not of the dead but of the living.

Quote: """"Job said, I know that my redeemer liveth, and He will raise me up and I shall see Him in the flesh"""

That is it sister, Why does Job need to return to his flesh to see Jesus, why is that? why could he not see Him in spirit?

Again, Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Very clear to me sis where we are until the day Jesus will call us.

Dear sister,

You quoted in one of your messages that once saved always saved.

I quoted you the text

Matthew 18:23-35
Trying to make a point to the fact that Yes God forgive us but then we, guided by His Spirit to conform our lives to the likeness of His Son.
My point was that at some point some people that were saved decide not to go all the way, and therefore makes his salvation void.

My point was that Once saved not forever saved, that is what the text in matthews tells me.

You then told me your story quoting this at the end.

""""Don't judge others affairs...you never know how God is working in not only their life but others as well."""""

I do not remember passing judgment on anything or anybody, it is not my place.

Am I perfect to pass judgement on someone?definetely not. You are not the only one with a sad story, and you are definetely not the only one that struggles every single day to make the right choices to serve the lord.

As I said this is a subject out of the context of New and Old covenant so I will not be commenting on this, will be glad to comment on a different thread but I feel that this is side tracking us from the main issue of the thread.

In Love, God bless.

Hi everybody, for the purpose of going back to the issue of New and Old covenant, I decided to repost a message to brother Benwilliam. God bless us all...

Hi brother benwilliams,

Thank you Brother for your reply.

I have to say that I rely enjoy exchanging messages with you, I think it is great that we can expose our doctrines differences in love and respect.

If you allow me to comment I have a few things to say about your last message.

Quote:""""Now in regards to the duty of the covenant, I am slightly unsure what you believe."""

In the new covenant we have the promise that God will put His laws in our hearts. That is my duty I have to keep His laws in my heart and in my mind. One can argue laws forever but I will try to explain to you what I believe these laws are.

Everybody that says""I am in the new covenant"" hardly ever or never makes any comments in regard of the laws that God said He would put into our hearts. Why is that?

I will probably repeat some of the things I posted before so please bear with me.
-------------------------------------------------

I believe that the New Covenant has the same structure as the Old Covenant.
The Promise
The Duty
The Sign

I believe that in my past posts we have established what these are.

Now You said:"""""If you believe that there are commandments that we must keep, then you must examine all of what Jesus taught, and not just one or two scriptures, there is another place that deals with the issue of commandments."""""

You are 100% right, We have to read the Scriptures as a whole, One text on its own does not nullify other texts but it has to complement it.

You have given me a text in Matthew 22:36-40.
Where Jesus was asked about the greatest commandments in the law.

Question: what Law where they talking about?

Jesus said that the second greatest commandments was to love your neighbor as yourself. This is what Paul says in regard of how I should love my neighbor.

Romans 13:9-10 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes, Paul quoted half of the Ten Commandments and then summed then up in one big Commandment.

Now in regard of the Greatest commandment.

Matthew 22:37-38 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.

Now I ask you, Was Jesus the first person to say these words or do we have someone saying these very words in the OT?

Here it is, but note that this Statement was made by moses just after rereading the Ten Commandments to Israel.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

How do I do this?

I think the answer is here.

Deuteronomy 6:2-3 "that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 "Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you -- 'a land flowing with milk and honey.'

According to this, they would receive the promise of the covenant.

Now we have the same account in Mark 12:13

But a very interesting thing happened in Luke

I young man come to Jesus and ask Him about Eternal life.

Luke 10:25-26 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Jesus replied with a question?

26 He said to him, "What is written in the law?

Jesus replies by referring to the Law and He asks the Lawyer.

Question What Law is Jesus talking about?

What is your reading of it?" Jesus said:

and The lawyer gives the exact same answer that Jesus said in the account of Matthew and mark.

Luke 10:27-28 So he answered and said, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

So To me, the commandments that Jesus referred in these texts are the very Ten Commandments.

For in another place it was asked Jesus the very same thing, and Then Jesus went on and named six out of the Ten commandment.

Luke 18:18-22 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

To my understanding this is the perfect formula for salvation.

To enter eternal life, I must:

Keep His commandments,
Don't have any love for the things of this World.
and Give my life to Him completely, by following Him.

Some people Read this passage and the first thing that they concentrate is the intention of the Ruler. But I invite you to look at Jesus intentions. Whatever the intention of the ruler was, to me it is of no relevance, but what Jesus says is. When Jesus replied He had no other intention than to lead the ruler into eternal life by obeying the commandments of God and asking Him to follow Him.

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Quote:
""""In John, who is known to be the closest to Jesus, who outlived all the other apostles, we find this exact teaching right here, where Jesus says something very interesting."""""

Jesus Did not give a new commandment, In fact all that He did was to magnify the ones already there.

I will give you an example.

This is how I see it.

The four first commandments of the Ten Commandments, talk about How we should Love God with all our heart, Remember, The greatest commandment?

Some people agree that the three first commandments in fact shows us how to love our God, but the Forth commandment was something solely for the Jew, it is a Jewish thing. I beg to differ, for in many place we see God referring to the fourth commandments the same way that Nehemiah described it.

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, By the hand of Moses Your servant.

The other six Commandments are guidance of How we should Love our neighbor. As we have described by Paul in Romans 13.

Now what Jesus did was, He wanted us to look at some of these laws with a magnifying glass.

For instance.

Ten Commandments
Do not commit Adultery.

But Jesus said:
Matthew 5:27-28 " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Again,
Matthew 5:43-44 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

But again this teaching was Not Jesus who said it for the first time either, for in the OT we have this.

Proverbs 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;

You see, Jesus was talking about something that Solomon Said in regard of our duty with our fellow man. we have not only to love our neighbor which was the second greatest commandment but He wants us to go even further, and love our enemies as well.

And I tell you to love your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you and bless those who curse you, all of these can only be achieved when Christ's love abides in you. And I am not ashamed to admit that I struggle with this sometimes, but everyday with the help of the scriptures and the holy Spirit, I am moving forward and learning to love those who sometimes don't have the best intentions towards me.

What I want you to see is I believe that God established His Holy Laws and they are eternal, Jesus did not come to change or nullify but He came to magnify His Father laws.

=================================================

Quote: """you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law. A man had to have faith to be counted as righteous, that is why Paul uses the example of Abraham as the standard by which salvation is to be judged. Let me quote a little Paul""""

You are 100% correct.

Scripture is very clear in this subject.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

But One cannot Deny that in every act of faith was followed by an act of obedience.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Now let me show you this.

Here Paul describes what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

a lot of people read my messages and they come back to me asking why do you put your salvation in the law rather than by faith in Jesus?

I answer them that this could not be any further from the truth.

It is because I have faith in Him, because I trust in Him because I love Him that I want to follow His laws, His commandments. Remember?
If you love me, keep my commandments. and this is how his commandments are referred as

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Ok, in one place Jesus said: If you love me, keep my commandments but in 1John we have: This is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments.

It could not be any clearer than that. Now Jesus did give us some commandments but does that nullify God's Commandment? Not at all.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

=================================================
Quote:"""""""you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law.""""

I feel I must comment this again.

Brother what you just have said, is exactly what Lucifer preached in Heaven and convinced a third of the Angels into sin.

“”””God is an unfair, unjust and a tyrant God.””””

Listen to what you are saying that God would give us commandments that we could not keep?

Please Read Psalms 19 and have a look of what David said about it.
Also I have the example of a few people that kept God’s law blamelessly.

Luke 1:5-6 here was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

What does it say on verse 6. They were both righteous before God. Were they sinless? No, for we know that there is only one that never sinned, but somehow they were righteous before God.
How do you figure that?

How about Moses?

Deuteronomy 34:10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Was Moses righteous before God?

What about Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel
Were they blameless before God.
Now as I said before these men they were not sinless, but somehow they were considered righteous before God.

Do you want to know about God's commandments, read Psalm 119 Here you will have a better understanding of God's commandments and laws.

by David, who did things that maybe you and I would not consider doing, but after all was said and done God said This about Him.

Acts 13:22 "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'

I will quote this again for you

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
=================================================

You then quoted a text from Romans 4.

I particularly like verse two,

Romans was written because there were Jews preaching to the new coverts that unless they were circumcised in the flesh they could not be saved.

When Paul refers to Justified by works it has nothing to do with the God's Law(Ten Commandments) He is talking about Circumcision, for they believed that they were justified by it, you could not belong to God unless you were circumcised.

The book of Romans is treating the problem of circumcision, nothing more.

Here is the proof.

One cannot live without the law.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,

For those who live without the any law will perish.

Romans 2:12 and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

Again, if you have the law but break it then you will be judged and you will perish as well.

So, in theory was is left out according to Romans 2:12,

Those who don't have the law but obey it.
Those who have the law and obey it.

Paul says:

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Hang on, what does Paul says about justification by the deeds of the law?

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Is Paul contradicting Himself?

In one place he says that the doers of the Law will be justified but in another He says that no one will be justified by the law.

Not At all, the law that Paul is talking about in Romans 2 is the law that tells us what sin is.

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

This law cannot be the law of circumcision for Paul clearly said:

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Now the law the Paul is talking about in Galatians 2:16 is a different law.

In order to know that all we have to do is to go back to the beginning of the chapter. What is Paul talking about?

Galatians 2:1-4 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage).

What Paul was saying is that no one will be justified by being circumcised, remember that the sign of the covenant with Abraham was circumcision?

So for the Jew they thought that they were right with God because they were circumcised, and we know what Paul tell us.

Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

=================================================

quote:"""What did Abraham do that made him righteous before God? Remember that the law had not yet come, the only law that there was, what Romans 1 talks about how God had revealed what was right by way of the conscience. It says that Abraham "believed" God, and that made him righteous before God."""

You said that the law had not yet come, but one fact remains, Abraham knew about God's laws and commandments. Now how He knew it to me is irrelevant but what is relevant is the fact the He knew.

Genesis 26:4-5 "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

The blessings of Abraham came because of obedience to God's laws and commandments.

Remember When God said this to Abraham, there was no Jew, so this is the proof that way before the Jews, we are talking quite a few centuries here, God had His laws and commandments pretty much being observed.

Abraham believed but also He obeyed and that was counted as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Abraham again was mentioned when Paul is talking about circumcision.

Romans 4:9-12 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Again nothing to do with obedience to the law (Ten Commandments) but the law of circumcision.

=================================================

This is the end of the first part of your message, I will reply to the rest of your message in another message.

Dearest sis Katy-did,

Please allow me to comment of your message.

You quote: """"Jayyou, Galatians 6, Paul says, Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing, but a **New Creature**.

There is no such thing as the law of Circumcision.

=================================================

Dear sis, Please do not take my words out of context, I am by no means preaching circumcision of the flesh. but circumcision of the Heart, which comes through obedience to the righteous requirements of the law

Here it is.

Romans 2:26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

Romans 2:27-29 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit,

Now you said this.

"""" Jayyou, Galatians 6, Paul says, Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing, but a **New Creature**."""""

I have this one for you to comment, Have a look.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Any Comments?????

Let me make it very clear to everybody Here, I keep the Ten commandments because I have faith in Jesus and I love Him therefore I keep His commandments, I am tired of people writting back to me saying that I am preaching salvation through the obedience of the law. Remember that without Jesus there is not salvation, it doesn't matter if you are OT OR NT believer. It is only through His blood. The keeping of the law come as a result of my faith and not the the other way around.

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Quote: """"There is no such thing as the law of Circumcision.""""

Dear sis, call it whatever you want, Law of circumcision, deeds of the law, works of the law.

One fact remains, on the eigth day the child had to be circumcised, remember what happened to Moses because he had not circumcised his children.

Exodus 4:24-26 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the LORD met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses' feet, and said, "Surely you are a husband of blood to me!" 26 So He let him go. Then she said, "You are a husband of blood!" -- because of the circumcision.

Now was it a law? was it a commandment? was it a statute?

Again, call it what you want but

One fact remains, on the eigth day you must circumcised your child. Call it what you want.

=================================================

NOw you also added up this text in Galatians

I will just quote the verses that you put in
bold letters.

You quoted: """"11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; """""""""

Spot on sis, that is precisely the type circumcision that we need, not the one made by hands but the one that is made by God through faith. CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART.

Now, Romans 2 talks about it very clearly, and you know what I have something quite interesting for you to see,

Romans 2:26-29 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Deuteronomy 10:16 "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer.

why was Israel called a Stiff-necked people?
for the very reason of disobedience to God's law.

Now I have something very interesting for you to read.

Do you remember when Jesus talked about the first great commandment.

Matthew 22:37-38 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.

Yes, but look at what Moses said about the first great commandment.

Deuteronomy 30:5-6 "Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Awesome, I can only keep the great first commandment after having circumcision of the heart. Praise the Lord.

and Sis, If you don't know how to circumcise your heart, Romans 2 is there for you to study and learn.

God bless you.......

Dear Sis Katy-did,

You made an statement in a previously message,
2007/12/20 14:41

Quote:"""" There is no such thing as the law of Circumcision.

Circumcision was and outward sign, much like Bptism is an outward profession of an inward transformation.""""""

I reply to you this,

My Quote"""" Quote: """"There is no such thing as the law of Circumcision.""""

Dear sis, call it whatever you want, Law of circumcision, deeds of the law, works of the law.

One fact remains, on the eigth day the child had to be circumcised, remember what happened to Moses because he had not circumcised his children.

Exodus 4:24-26 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the LORD met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses' feet, and said, "Surely you are a husband of blood to me!" 26 So He let him go. Then she said, "You are a husband of blood!" -- because of the circumcision.

Now was it a law? was it a commandment? was it a statute?

Again, call it what you want but

One fact remains, on the eigth day you must circumcised your child. Call it what you want.""""

My point Here was the fact that there was a law that required the new born Jew to be circumcised on the eigth day.

Note that the first time I said in my message

"""One fact remains,""

I used the verb in the past, and I admit that I made a mistake in the verb tense on the second time, but Come on, inspite of all that I have written here you must have realized that I meant the Child had to be circumcised on the eight day.

But you wrote back to me as it I were preaching circumcision of the flesh.

Quote: 2""I'm sorry, but if you read Acts, life now under Grace requires no such circumcision. ( However it is a good idea health wise)"""

Come on, are you mocking me?

I said what I said because you said that there is no such a thing as the law of circumcision, when if fact there was one.

Then you went on and said this.

Quote: """You sound like you may be SDA, still keeping law, etc, etc."""

Dear sis, Not only I sound like an SDA but I act like one as well.

Now would I be wrong to assume that you said that the SDA preaches Circumcision of the flesh?

Now I keep saying to you that when Paul said that we are under grace and not under the law, He meant the law of circumcion.

Now I have quoted you Romans 2 in regard of circumcion of the flesh and so far I heard nothing.

Here it is again.....

Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

What is this righteous requirements of the law?

Please pay attention on verse 27 we have three thing that I would like you to consider.

01- uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law.

02- judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision,

03- are a transgressor of the law?

number 02-03 talks about three things
(written code, circumcision and Law)

Any comments?????

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Dear sis, I said before,

Give me your texts about Justified by the law, deeds of the law etc..

And I will prove to you that Paul is talking about circumcision of the flesh.

and by the way, What about this one here that you did not comment either..

You talked that circumcision avails nothing but a new creature, well Paul said that what really matter is this.....

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

You are most definetely right, Christ is in me and He is the One the empowers me and lead me to obbey God's commandments.

Now you said something very interesting here.

Quote: """"The Just shall live by faith, by the Faith of Christ...the risen Christ....the 8th day Christ, the one who rose from the dead Christ"""

You said the 8th day christ. Now what 8th is that? What do you mean 8th day?

I know that Christ was not found in the tomb on the first day of the week. Also that He would die and raise on the third day, but 8th day? 8th day of what.

8th day means 8 days after the beginning or ending of something. Now what happened 8 days prior to His resurrection that you are talking about?

I am sorry sis but you cannot interchange 1th and 8th as you please, it doesn't work like that...

Now give me the text that you claim set you free from the law and I will show you that it is talking about circumcision. bring it on sis......

Hi everybody, for the purpose of going back to the issue of New and Old covenant, I decided to repost a message to brother Benwilliam. God bless us all...

Hi brother benwilliams,

Thank you Brother for your reply.

I have to say that I rely enjoy exchanging messages with you, I think it is great that we can expose our doctrines differences in love and respect.

If you allow me to comment I have a few things to say about your last message.

Quote:""""Now in regards to the duty of the covenant, I am slightly unsure what you believe."""

In the new covenant we have the promise that God will put His laws in our hearts. That is my duty I have to keep His laws in my heart and in my mind. One can argue laws forever but I will try to explain to you what I believe these laws are.

Everybody that says""I am in the new covenant"" hardly ever or never makes any comments in regard of the laws that God said He would put into our hearts. Why is that?

I will probably repeat some of the things I posted before so please bear with me.
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I believe that the New Covenant has the same structure as the Old Covenant.
The Promise
The Duty
The Sign

I believe that in my past posts we have established what these are.

Now You said:"""""If you believe that there are commandments that we must keep, then you must examine all of what Jesus taught, and not just one or two scriptures, there is another place that deals with the issue of commandments."""""

You are 100% right, We have to read the Scriptures as a whole, One text on its own does not nullify other texts but it has to complement it.

You have given me a text in Matthew 22:36-40.
Where Jesus was asked about the greatest commandments in the law.

Question: what Law where they talking about?

Jesus said that the second greatest commandments was to love your neighbor as yourself. This is what Paul says in regard of how I should love my neighbor.

Romans 13:9-10 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes, Paul quoted half of the Ten Commandments and then summed then up in one big Commandment.

Now in regard of the Greatest commandment.

Matthew 22:37-38 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.

Now I ask you, Was Jesus the first person to say these words or do we have someone saying these very words in the OT?

Here it is, but note that this Statement was made by moses just after rereading the Ten Commandments to Israel.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

How do I do this?

I think the answer is here.

Deuteronomy 6:2-3 "that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 "Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you -- 'a land flowing with milk and honey.'

According to this, they would receive the promise of the covenant.

Now we have the same account in Mark 12:13

But a very interesting thing happened in Luke

I young man come to Jesus and ask Him about Eternal life.

Luke 10:25-26 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Jesus replied with a question?

26 He said to him, "What is written in the law?

Jesus replies by referring to the Law and He asks the Lawyer.

Question What Law is Jesus talking about?

What is your reading of it?" Jesus said:

and The lawyer gives the exact same answer that Jesus said in the account of Matthew and mark.

Luke 10:27-28 So he answered and said, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

So To me, the commandments that Jesus referred in these texts are the very Ten Commandments.

For in another place it was asked Jesus the very same thing, and Then Jesus went on and named six out of the Ten commandment.

Luke 18:18-22 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

To my understanding this is the perfect formula for salvation.

To enter eternal life, I must:

Keep His commandments,
Don't have any love for the things of this World.
and Give my life to Him completely, by following Him.

Some people Read this passage and the first thing that they concentrate is the intention of the Ruler. But I invite you to look at Jesus intentions. Whatever the intention of the ruler was, to me it is of no relevance, but what Jesus says is. When Jesus replied He had no other intention than to lead the ruler into eternal life by obeying the commandments of God and asking Him to follow Him.

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Quote:
""""In John, who is known to be the closest to Jesus, who outlived all the other apostles, we find this exact teaching right here, where Jesus says something very interesting."""""

Jesus Did not give a new commandment, In fact all that He did was to magnify the ones already there.

I will give you an example.

This is how I see it.

The four first commandments of the Ten Commandments, talk about How we should Love God with all our heart, Remember, The greatest commandment?

Some people agree that the three first commandments in fact shows us how to love our God, but the Forth commandment was something solely for the Jew, it is a Jewish thing. I beg to differ, for in many places we see God referring to the fourth commandments the same way that Nehemiah described it.

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, By the hand of Moses Your servant.

The other six Commandments are guidance of How we should Love our neighbor. As we have described by Paul in Romans 13.

Now what Jesus did was, He wanted us to look at some of these laws with a magnifying glass.

For instance.

Ten Commandments
Do not commit Adultery.

But Jesus said:
Matthew 5:27-28 " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Again,
Matthew 5:43-44 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

But again this teaching was Not Jesus who said it for the first time either, for in the OT we have this.

Proverbs 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;

You see, Jesus was talking about something that Solomon Said in regard of our duty with our fellow man. we have not only to love our neighbor which was the second greatest commandment but He wants us to go even further, and love our enemies as well.

And I tell you to love your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you and bless those who curse you, all of these can only be achieved when Christ's love abides in you. And I am not ashamed to admit that I struggle with this sometimes, but everyday with the help of the scriptures and the holy Spirit, I am moving forward and learning to love those who sometimes don't have the best intentions towards me.

What I want you to see is I believe that God established His Holy Laws and they are eternal, Jesus did not come to change or nullify but He came to magnify His Father laws.

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Quote: """you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law. A man had to have faith to be counted as righteous, that is why Paul uses the example of Abraham as the standard by which salvation is to be judged. Let me quote a little Paul""""

You are 100% correct.

Scripture is very clear in this subject.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

But One cannot Deny that in every act of faith was followed by an act of obedience.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Now let me show you this.

Here Paul describes what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

a lot of people read my messages and they come back to me asking why do you put your salvation in the law rather than by faith in Jesus?

I answer them that this could not be any further from the truth.

It is because I have faith in Him, because I trust in Him because I love Him that I want to follow His laws, His commandments. Remember?
If you love me, keep my commandments. and this is how his commandments are referred as

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Ok, in one place Jesus said: If you love me, keep my commandments but in 1John we have: This is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments.

It could not be any clearer than that. Now Jesus did give us some commandments but does that nullify God's Commandments? Not at all.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

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Quote:"""""""you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law.""""

I feel I must comment this again.

Brother what you just have said, is exactly what Lucifer preached in Heaven and convinced a third of the Angels into sin.

“”””God is an unfair, unjust and a tyrant God.””””

Listen to what you are saying that God would give us commandments that we could not keep?

Please Read Psalms 19 and have a look of what David said about it.
Also I have the example of a few people that kept God’s law blamelessly.

Luke 1:5-6 here was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

What does it say on verse 6. They were both righteous before God. Were they sinless? No, for we know that there is only one that never sinned, but somehow they were righteous before God.
How do you figure that?

How about Moses?

Deuteronomy 34:10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Was Moses righteous before God?

What about Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel
Were they blameless before God.
Now as I said before these men they were not sinless, but somehow they were considered righteous before God.

Do you want to know about God's commandments, read Psalm 119 Here you will have a better understanding of God's commandments and laws.

by David, who did things that maybe you and I would not consider doing, but after all was said and done God said This about Him.

Acts 13:22 "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'

I will quote this again for you

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
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You then quoted a text from Romans 4.

I particularly like verse two,

Romans was written because there were Jews preaching to the new coverts that unless they were circumcised in the flesh they could not be saved.

When Paul refers to Justified by works it has nothing to do with the God's Law(Ten Commandments) He is talking about Circumcision, for they believed that they were justified by it, you could not belong to God unless you were circumcised.

The book of Romans is treating the problem of circumcision, nothing more.

Here is the proof.

One cannot live without the law.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,

For those who live without the any law will perish.

Romans 2:12 and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

Again, if you have the law but break it then you will be judged and you will perish as well.

So, in theory was is left out according to Romans 2:12,

Those who don't have the law but obey it.
Those who have the law and obey it.

Paul says:

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Hang on, what does Paul says about justification by the deeds of the law?

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Is Paul contradicting Himself?

In one place he says that the doers of the Law will be justified but in another He says that no one will be justified by the law.

Not At all, the law that Paul is talking about in Romans 2 is the law that tells us what sin is.

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

This law cannot be the law of circumcision for Paul clearly said:

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Now the law the Paul is talking about in Galatians 2:16 is a different law.

In order to know that all we have to do is to go back to the beginning of the chapter. What is Paul talking about?

Galatians 2:1-4 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage).

What Paul was saying is that no one will be justified by being circumcised, remember that the sign of the covenant with Abraham was circumcision?

So for the Jew they thought that they were right with God because they were circumcised, and we know what Paul tell us.

Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

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quote:"""What did Abraham do that made him righteous before God? Remember that the law had not yet come, the only law that there was, what Romans 1 talks about how God had revealed what was right by way of the conscience. It says that Abraham "believed" God, and that made him righteous before God."""

You said that the law had not yet come, but one fact remains, Abraham knew about God's laws and commandments. Now how He knew it to me is irrelevant but what is relevant is the fact the He knew.

Genesis 26:4-5 "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

The blessings of Abraham came because of obedience to God's laws and commandments.

Remember When God said this to Abraham, there was no Jew, so this is the proof that way before the Jews, we are talking quite a few centuries here, God had His laws and commandments pretty much being observed.

Abraham believed but also He obeyed and that was counted as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Abraham again was mentioned when Paul is talking about circumcision.

Romans 4:9-12 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Again nothing to do with obedience to the law (Ten Commandments) but the law of circumcision.

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This is the end of the first part of your message, I will reply to the rest of your message in another message.

Dear brother benwilliams,

we were discussing Old and New covenant when we kind of got side tracked. I would love to see your comments on this message.

God bless you.....