Hearing God? not Todd friel

I've been listening to Way of the master Radio (WOTM) for over a year now and I have noticed that Todd Friel keeps mentioning things which I frankly disagree with.

I do think he's a good Christian who has the heart of an Evangelist, but there are a few points he mentions from time to time which I think are unscriptural. Sure he'll give you a reference to back up what he says but I'm not convinced.

There are a few but let's just discuss one of them here. Does God Speak to us today?
He will say 'yes' through the bible and by asking Godly friends and Pastors, we can learn God's will. But if you suggest that God actually SPEAKS using His voice, well then you're hit with ridicule. Both he and Ray Comfort (and I've heard them say this) will laugh; 'What? you're hearing voices and you think it's God?'

Now I guess to be fair I will give you more input on what I have heard, Todd does believe that God can do anything and so he'll say that God CAN speak to you if He wants to. The argument that he uses is that there are no more revelations and that God has spoken through the Bible and He doesn't need to say any more. Following that point (which I agree with) Todd goes on to say that because God has no more to say he doesn't 'talk' to us and if we thought He had told us something that is a new revelation and therefore not God doing the speaking.

However if you listen to say Carter Conlon, Paris Reidhead and other men of God they will mention when God has spoken to them, Carter told of a time when he was driving past a plot of land and God told him that he (Carter) would soon be living on that land. (and it did happen). Paris Reidhead in 10 Shekels says 'and I heard a voice echoing down from the ages "do I not deserve those fo whom I died"'

I do realise we shouldn't listen to everything that pops into our head, but becoming more Christ like is learning to hear His voice (My sheep know my voice Jn 10:27) and obeying it.

Personally I have found God does speak to me- yes it's a voice in my head and it sounds just like my own thoughts - This voice gives me guicence (this is the way, walk ye in it. Isa 30:21), rebuke, things like 'that's enough chocolate' and 'go and apologise to your wife' encouragement - this is not so much as words as an image of him holding my hand, smiling etc (these are vague impressions don't be asking me 'what does He look like').

I remember once asking Him why I couldn't be like all those 'Christians' who do nothing, why do I have to go out and preach. His words were very clear; 'because people would die and go to hell if you didn't warn them'. Another time I had to go and confess a sin to a friend, I really didn't want to it was so bad, again (in a loving way, not harshly) I asked what would happen if I didn't and the answer I got was, not like a vision, again just a vague impression, nothing specific, but this is what I 'heard' if I didn't confess, I would believe myself to have 'got away with it' and the next time I am temped to sin in that way I would fall, that act of sin would be discovered and would be distroy my family (I got the idea that I would end up in prison).

To put my beliefs on the table; I believe that God does speak to us, He speaks in a still small voice, easy to ignore and drown out, He often gives us verses of scripture (that pop into our mind), and He also gives us guidance verbally, with pictures or these hard to define vague impressions. I also believe that just because people have voices in their heads doesn't mean that it's God. I hear the voice of the enemy too, he often says things like 'go on, you know you can just repent of it later'. And I have my own voice of course, it's like a party in my head!;-) No seriously, do any of you understand this, could you perhaps put it in simpler terms.

I'm not calling Todd but I find it anoying that he has his cessational beliefs and he uses the radio show to coax us on to his side, I am nearly to the point of stopping listening but there is so much good stuff on his show. Why not write to him? Because I've heard his reply's when people write in, he gives his opinion, chucks in a scripture or mentions a name like John McArthur, and moves on to another subject, if someone phones in and disagrees, he does something similar and then cuts them off. And then has the audacity to say 'It's good you are calling in with your criticisms, I'm not perfect and I like to be shown where you think I'm wrong.

This is a bit long and I still haven't said everything but I'll open it up to you lot.

Steve

I am also a listener of WOTM, and am in perfect agreement with all you have said.

Hi Steve,

From the sound of it, Todd does seem to be in the cessationist camp with regards to this issue.

However, if you've heard any of Ray Comfort's older sermons (specifically "Why the lack of Power in the Church"), it's obvious that he is charismatic in viewpoint. Also, his is an ordained pastor under Calvary Chapel plus he has made appearances on Joyce Meyer's TV show.

As for Kirk Cameron, the last two weeks of John MacArthur's "Grace to You" video podcasts featured Kirk giving his testimony. Kirk has also said on WOTMR that when he leads people to Christ, he directs them to the alumni department the of Master's Seminary.

I honestly think this is interesting. Todd seems to be of the more Reformed side (cessationist, more calvinistic) whereas Ray is more akin to the "Holiness" preachers among the old-school pentacostals such as Ravenhill, Tozer, Reidhead. In the audio version of "Hell's Best Kept Secret", Ray recounts that early in his US ministry, David Wilkerson had him fly from California to New York to preach at Times Square Church.

The fact that these men can come together in unity to form a ministry under a common vision is an example to be learned from.

If Todd Friel is attending the church John MacArthur pastors as Ray Comfort does, then he is, most likely, a cessasionist. On this point I would disagree with this brother as I do with Ray Comfort, and John MacArthur.

This is something that as Paul said in Philippians that the Lord will make clear to us in due time on those debatable points.

Hi everyone.

allhavsinned, how are you?

I hope it will be alright to leave a short comment here. Maybe it expresses something of your concerns too.

It is hard to imagine we could be united to God and be left [b]uninspired[/b].

Wish you all well in God,

Chris

allhavsinned,

Whatever Paris Reidhead or Carter Conlon says is irrelevant, just as whatever Todd and Ray says is irrelevant. What matters is what the Word of God says. What you have described regarding "leading" or "God's voice" is not based on anything in the Word of God (except some verses that you have taken out of context), but is something that you have taken to be God speaking with you when it could in fact be you speaking to you in your thoughts.

That's why it's so important to let the Word of God be the source of our guidance and not our own thoughts. Those are relative. His Word is absolute and there is no doubt where that came from.

Blessings,

Jon

Hi Chris, yes I'm fine thanks, just been a bit too busy to come here for a while.

Jon, you're post is interesting, it's so vague that it's difficult to disagree with. we all here recognise that it's not what people say but what the bible says, that't why I'm asking about Todd and how others think of the matter, you see there are a lot of things that the bible are silent on, so it's left to us to debate.

I like the way you say I take a bible verse out of context but don't show how or what the 'real' context is, that bad apologetics (or is it bad herminutics?) anyway, Jon nail your flag to the mast what do you believe, does God speak to us audibly today (as in the OT to the prophets) or not. And don't forget to back up what you say with scripture (in context ;-))

I hope you take this post in the attitude it's written, I'm not having a go at anyone, just want to ask about others and their experiences.

Steve

God does speak to us, sometimes we just don't have the ears to listen. Sometimes we hear the voices of man, and what man tells us to hear, over what God wants us to hear.

He speaks to us in dreams and visions. People seem to forget about the dream arena.

He speaks audible to us. I have no scripture that says "I have spoken to Miccah", but He has.

He speaks to us through other people and examples. HOw many times have you been reading, listening to something that you feel that teh Lord leads you to, next thing you know on Sunday, that exact verse is spoken about, or someone tells you about this same verse that you have been stuck on.

The Lord speaks to us, do we have the fortitude to truly listen?

This is one of those topics, where I wonder why there is even any debate. How can anyone think that for 4,000 years or so God was speaking, and then when the bible was finished, He said, "That's it, here's the book get on with it, don't expect to hear from Me again until you get to heaven." Of course, He still speaks today. The reason we have the bible is to avoid a lot of repetition and so that we are not led astray by deceiving spirits into error. (This is not an definitive list of reasons.)

If you have any doubts, try a couple of experiments. If your a father, find your child's diary and hug it and tell it you love the child, who wrote the diary. Now try it with the child. Did you notice any difference? If your married, go and find your wife's diary, give it a hug and whisper sweet nothings to it. Now try the same with your wife. Again, any difference? God is our Father, Christ is the bridegroom of the Church, why would they not want to speak to us?

Now it isn't always clear whether we have heard right, for Paul writes: [color=009900]1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.[/color] so the bible and godly advice is a useful backstop to keep us from making bad mistakes or plunging into error, but God not speaking today, I don't think so! This is getting a bit too close to those theologians that said God is dead! Very dangerous ground.

MikeH

allhavesinned wrote:

Whatever Paris Reidhead or Carter Conlon says is irrelevant, just as whatever Todd and Ray says is irrelevant. What matters is what the Word of God says. What you have described regarding "leading" or "God's voice" is not based on anything in the Word of God (except some verses that you have taken out of context), but is something that you have taken to be God speaking with you when it could in fact be you speaking to you in your thoughts.

That's why it's so important to let the Word of God be the source of our guidance and not our own thoughts. Those are relative. His Word is absolute and there is no doubt where that came from.

First of all, the burden of proof is in your court to prove that God no longer speaks to people, or that there are no new revelations.

Both are foolishness, but I will show simply how they are such.

Let's look at what Paul says here in I Corinthians.

[b][color=FF0000]I Corinthians 12:1-2

1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.[/color][/b]

What is a dumb idol?

If you know anything about language, or history of words, a dumb idol meant an idol that could not communicate, could not speak. Why did Paul make a point of this?

I am assuming that you don't believe that any signs or wonders are for today either, because why would you? You believe in a God that has no relationship with His people.

You probably have never done a study on God to see what His character is concerning speaking to His people. If you did, you would find that God is the God who sees, God is the God who hears, God is the God who speaks.

Let me ask you this, does God answer prayers?

If He does, then He speaks, so you are driven to believe either in a God who speaks, or to a God who does not answer prayer, your choice.

By the way, this is only two verses, if I have to, I can make an outline of all the speakings of God, or the Holy Spirit throughout the NT, and then you really have a problem, because it does not say anywhere that those things have stopped.
-------------------------------------------------

One other thing, and this is for a few people who posted here, ya'll have said that you believe there are no new revelations, what about the revelation of God's mercy, which the scripture says is new every morning?

If there is one that is new every morning, what about the revelation of God's love, His patience, His kindness, His wisdom?

Besides all that, if God gives a man a word of knowledge, that is a new revelation, because it was not known before, and it was a supernatural piece of information, which is revelation.

I think ya'll are speaking from a lack of experience, because God has spoken things to me when I was ministering many times where it was something I had no way of knowing, and yet it was 100% accurate when I spoke it to whoever it was for.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Jesus spoke to people right? Jesus is God, God still speaks to people.

God also speaks to His people through His Angels also:

Acts 8:

[b][color=0000FF]26 And a messenger of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, `Arise, and go on toward the south, on the way that is going down from Jerusalem to Gaza,' -- this is desert. [/color][/b]

This angel was clearly sent of God so we know he spoke as God instructed him to.

We also have the account of the Revelation...that was Jesus speaking John and asking him to write it all down, as well as what He showed John:

Rev 1:

[b][color=0000FF]9 I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ; 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day,[/color][/b][u][i][b][color=0000FF]and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, 11 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' [/color][/b][/i][/u]

so John heard the Voice of Jesus telling him what to do...Jesus told us Holy Spirit would come and teach us and that teaching involves speaking to men among other things also like the word, i hear Him speak to me as i read something and He reveals something about it to me. God speaks to us in voice but most of us don't have ears to hear...it is no different to the days of old in which men would say "i heard God talk to me today" and people would be like "yeah uh huh..."Those that heard God's voice were often thought of as nuts in the same way that those of us who say the same thing now are thought of as nuts. the hearts of men don't change do they?

God does still speak audibly...to those who would hear anyway. All the same may God continue perfecting us in spite of ourselves.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

allhavsinned,

Whatever Paris Reidhead or Carter Conlon says is irrelevant, just as whatever Todd and Ray says is irrelevant. What matters is what the Word of God says. What you have described regarding "leading" or "God's voice" is not based on anything in the Word of God (except some verses that you have taken out of context), but is something that you have taken to be God speaking with you when it could in fact be you speaking to you in your thoughts.

That's why it's so important to let the Word of God be the source of our guidance and not our own thoughts. Those are relative. His Word is absolute and there is no doubt where that came from.

Blessings,

Jon

Hi Jon,

I had a few thoughts that came to mind and I thought I would ask. I' m not meaning to be provocative.

How do you know you're converted? Is it because you have deduced this fact from scripture or because the spirit bears witness with you that you are a child of God?

I know that the Bible doesn't say "Josh Parsley is a Christian." So, don't I have to go on some type of perception or conscience that God has accepted me? If so, wouldn't I have to believe "God spoke to me that I have peace with Him?"

I think we have to have a combination of the Spirit bearing witness with us and it being in line with the Bible.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro Jim
from my own experience of what was said about the voice of God sounding like your thoughts, what i hear sounds like my own voice but the giveaway is that the thoughts are something other than what i would think on otherwise. Furthermore it has been confirmed by His word, events and other saints also. it's like you said when you got a word of knowledge from another brother, that is God speaking to you albeit using the voice of a brother. that brother is the vessel.

you said:

May we have ears to hear.

may we have ears to hear indeed.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

BenWilliams could you edit your post you made it look as though I wrote that statement when actually Jon wrote it to answer me.

for the rest of "ya'll" Thanks for the encouragement, like I said I like Todd Friel but I find the way he pushes the questionable side of his doctrines to be annoying, he has so much influence that some weaker Christians might not follow the voice of God because they don't like it, though I would agree that what He speaks to us MUST be in line with Scripture.

Another point I wanted to mention to Jon, what about those who don't have access to a bible, those alone in prison, can God not speak to them?

Also...
Jn 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him,
How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ,
tell us plainly.
Jn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not:
the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of
me.
Jn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as
I said unto you.
Jn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they
follow me:
Jn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never
perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all;
and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Jn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

What does Jesus mean if he doesn't mean 'My sheep hear my voice'? Why is this out of context?

and...

Isa 30:19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.
Isa 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

Again I realise He's talking to the Jews here but I think this verse applies to us (the Church) too, I'm open to you showing me where I'm wrong.

Steve

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Blessings Greg :-)

Just to put you all in the picture, if you go to WayOfTheMaster Radio and listen to Hour2 of 29th November, Todd gives a good 10 mins to this subject and clearly says that God only speaks through the bible, not audibly.

The question he askes is 'is Scripture sufficient' and then goes on to say that if you believe that then you don't need to hear God's voice, but if you claim to hear God speaking to you then you don't believe that Scripture is sufficient. I am sorry but Todd is dead wrong on this, as is mentioned above by bible believing Christians who have heard the voice of God.

Yes the scriptures are sufficient but why does that stop God from speaking. Todd believes that if God speaks another word (small w) then He is giving a new revelation!

I'm a bit of a legalist myself, that is to say that I err on the side of 'if you think it may be wrong, keep away from it' so I should agree with Todd, and I wouldn't tell anyone that they must hear from God to be a Christian, But I believe in a loving God, who cares for His children, (those who have received Him, John 1) and corrects them, and encourages them, does He use the bible for this? Yes very much so and those who don't read the bible often miss out on a lot that He has to say, but there are circumstances when He speaks. let me tell you a quick story...

Afew months ago I was witnessing to a Johovah's Witness and they don't believe God speaks to us, I told her outright 'God is talking to me now as I talk to you, he's prompting me with scriptures and helping me keep focus' I have no Idea weather or not she believed me but I said that because I was sure of it. Put it this way, either God was talking to me by putting scripture verses (passages not chapter and verse) in my mind, or I'm a lot cleverer than I think because normally I can't come up with them at the right time.

Another one, My dad, never been a Christian, still not one, one day in his garden he heard God say 'are you coming now?' (something to that effect) and he replied 'not yet I'v a few problems I want to sort out first'. was that God or a momentary lapse of reason.

My wife last year I asked her if she wanted to go to Israel with my mum, she replied 'no' later that day she was thinking about it and a verse popped into her head, this time it was a reference, so she looked it up and lo an behold it said 'go up to Jerusalem' She told me and I told my mum who said she'd been reading the parable where Jesus says 'one son said he would go and didn't the other said he wouldn't go and he did'. You see I believe God speaks through the scriptures and sometimes he audibly quotes it for us.

Again let me ask what about those who have no bible?

Withoug rambling on I just want to say that I still like Todd, he's overall a better Christian than I am and He knows the scriptures more than I, that's why I'm not writing this to him, he'd just bury me in theology. So I've come to you guys to find the truth, it appears so far that I'm heading in the right direction, are there anythings I'm falling short on?

Just one quickie, if the scripture is sufficient as he says (of course it is) why do we need the book 'Decisions Decisions' (available at WOTMR) to be able to understand the bible better?
Can not God's Holy Spirit guide us as we read it, to understand it better? I think this is the point Greg was making above.

Steve

Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

John 10:2-5 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

grace and peace be multiplied to you brother.

allhavsinned wrote:
Withoug rambling on I just want to say that I still like Todd, he's overall a better Christian than I am...

Why would you say something like that? Is it because that is something he would say, or something He would say? Don't sell yourself short or let others sell you short. Only the Lord makes that judgement, and we are not to compare ourselves with ohers. Try not top be swayed by soothing words.

[u][b]2 Corinthians 10:11-12[/b][/u]

[i]For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. We, however, will not boast beyond measure, but within the limits of the sphere which God appointed us—a sphere which especially includes you.[/i]

and He knows the scriptures more than I, that's why I'm not writing this to him, he'd just bury me in theology.

The great thing about theology is that you can choose one that will fit into what you want to believe. We all do this to a certain degree. Just because he knows his theology more or better then you know yours, [u]doesn't[/u] mean that you are wrong (in context of hearing from God). Listen to what the Lord is telling you. If he wishes to mock those that disagree with him, then that is a road that he needs to be careful on, not you.

So I've come to you guys to find the truth, it appears so far that I'm heading in the right direction, are there anythings I'm falling short on?

Just trust in what the Spirit is working in you. Keep praying for wisdom and revelation on this subject, the Lord will get you through.

Just one quickie, if the scripture is sufficient as he says (of course it is) why do we need the book 'Decisions Decisions' (available at WOTMR) to be able to understand the bible better?

Well, my opinion is that we is humans tend to like to hear man's interpretations and meaning of scripture, then listening to the Word itself.

Can not God's Holy Spirit guide us as we read it, to understand it better? I think this is the point Greg was making above.

[u][b]Colossians 2:1-10[/b][/u]

[b]Not Philosophy but Christ[/b]

[i]For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.[/i]

I understand that brother Todd may not hear from God, but keep listening for/to the Lord. It pleases the Father to give you the Kingdom. Don't let anyone take that away from you.

In Chirst

For myself, I feel there are a couple things we need to sort out in regards to this topic. First off, I really haven't systemized all of this theologically yet :-) ...but I heartily agree the Lord does speak to us brethren.

My wife reminds me from time to time that when we first met, she heard the Lord audibly tell her that I was going to be her husband. Now I felt I wanted to marry her as well in the same moment, but I didn't hear the Lord's voice audibly. To my pleasant surprise after two weeks into our Christian friendship, she broke up with her boyfriend of 7 years and let me into her life. When I proposed 9 months later, she told me what she had heard. In 17 years of ups and downs, at times facing trials that could've given her fair reason to question the sanity of her earlier confidence, she's never doubted the reality of the Lord's calling and pleasure in our marriage.

----------------------------------------

One more testimony...

A few years ago I was driving a good hour's distance from my home to meet a friend at a resturaunt. While on the way to the meeting, I was distraught over an unrelated matter; complaining to the Lord about some things I didn't like about my make-up and personality. Basically, I was feeling sorry for myself, blaming the Lord for my fears and anxieties. I was challenging Him, wanting to know why he made me "so inadequate", when he wanted me to do "these difficult things".

Well, once I arrived at the resturaunt I put on my social face and prepared to engage in some light hearted chatter with my friend over hamburgers. A woman, who was a complete stranger to me, approached our table and politely interrupted our conversation to tell me directly: "The Lord says that even though you are 'so inadequate', he is going to do 'these difficult things' through you!" Then she smiled and walked away. I was too stunned to even thank her properly...and my friend didn't know what to think. In a few seconds I realized that this kind lady had just prophesied to me, but by that time she was gone.

In both of these cases, I practice a sort of hopeful reservation...not a sketpicism but a stillness. I believe the Lord does speak, but I try to keep myself within the testimony of scripture first, being patient, quiet and simple about the conclusions I infer from more personal, albiet valid, experiences.

But Mary kept all these things in her mind, pondering them in her heart...

Now the sorting of these things out...Like many in this thread I know the most important 'voice' is scripture. I would go so far as to say...scripture is the only necessary voice.

The Gospel of Jesus is first and foremost an objective truth. Jesus' ressurection is a verifiable fact of history. After this ground zero event, we Christians trust Christ for salvation not because of our subjective validations, but because of the actuality and authority of scripture's record of God's power and intent to ressurrect us as well.

Idiosyncratic, exceptional, out of the ordinary personal messages...this is how we often hope God will speak to us...preferring unconventional ways over the convention of scripture. We may share wonderous accounts with one another of Jesus speaking and touching us in specific ways...but we will encourage one another the most only with the whole account of scripture.

Believing what we cannot always sense, what we hold to be true in God's word, is how we are kept from being anchorless emotional wrecks seeking one form of fleeting experience after another. The simple hearted believer rests in the objectively verified historicalness of the bible. Historical, unchanging, reliable, factual, tangible, physical, actual,...these biblical attributes are what seperates our faith from mysticism and spiritualism.

I was talking to my oldest son the other day...(actually preaching to him...) about how he can trust the Lord regardless of his subjective feelings or experiences. God's word, the bible, is to be trusted above all your senses, emotions, intellect, and experiences...uphold the clear written truth of scripture above any other voice son! And if we never hear an audible voice, or have a warm feeling of inspiration inside, we can still know that on the third day Jesus rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty...and will keep us who have put our faith in him.

In this sense, Todd Friel is perfectly equpped for every good work inspite of his cessationist confession. He has a relationship with Jesus through faith according to the scriptures, which is evidenced by the spiritual fruit in his life.

...and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

MC

Thanks Compton, You put things into such good perspective.

I too put scripture above everything, and I think the main point Todd is trying to get across is that we can't trust our feelings or the voices in our head, but we can trust the Word. I guess for every instance we put forward for when we have heard from God, he can site a case when someone heard from God and went out and did something stupid.

It's best to be cautious, but we should allow God to speak to us how He wants to. If we're burried in the scriptures we can soon discern the voices.

Steve

by allhavsinned on 2007/11/30 11:57:57

Just to put you all in the picture, if you go to WayOfTheMaster Radio and listen to Hour2 of 29th November, Todd gives a good 10 mins to this subject and clearly says that God only speaks through the bible, not audibly.

The question he askes is 'is Scripture sufficient' and then goes on to say that if you believe that then you don't need to hear God's voice, but if you claim to hear God speaking to you then you don't believe that Scripture is sufficient. I am sorry but Todd is dead wrong on this, as is mentioned above by bible believing Christians who have heard the voice of God.

Yes the scriptures are sufficient but why does that stop God from speaking. Todd believes that if God speaks another word (small w) then He is giving a new revelation!

He also used as an example Oral Roberts University, an institution irrefutably regarded by both cessationists and faithful continualists alike as teaching false doctrine (i.e., Word of Faith).

It's the classic "Strawman" argument.

Steve,

In the context of John 10, Jesus has been teaching. The point is that those who are His sheep receive His teaching. It is not a passage which we can build a doctrine concerning God speaking to us on with impressions, voices, dreams or anything else.

Isaiah 30:19-21 is a prophecy for Jewish people which most Bible scholars believe will be fulfilled in the Millenial Kingdom. Unless you are a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and living in the Millenial Kingdom, this doesn't apply to you. This is why theological and immediate context is so important in understanding the Word. Otherwise you can make it say whatever you want.

Most of the replies to my post have only proved what I'm saying. People have responded with testimonies of something they think has been God speaking to them and good things have happened because of their experience. But experience is relative. That's why Mormons have the "burning in the bosom" experience. You can never tell them anything different about that experience because, after all, they have had it. The same with people who have seen UFO's.

I contend that Christianity is unique from cults and other religions because of the Word of God. It does lead us, God does speak to us through it. We need no further revelation.

Blessings,

Jon

Jon, another straw man, you're now saying what we believe is cultish.

You didn't answer the question about what of those who have no bible. When I went to a church in Africa, they had a time of telling their dreams and the pastor would tell the interpritation. I thought that was dodgy, and it may be but it's origins come from when Christians had no bible and the only way they could learn was God would speak to them, usually in dreams, and they would bring it to the congregation and the more mature Christians would discuss it. that's not too dissimilar than when you say

Lawevangelis wrote:
most Bible scholars believe will be fulfilled in the Millenial Kingdom. Unless you are a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and living in the Millenial Kingdom, this doesn't apply to you.

It is people interpriting the word of God for you.

I have read the comments of others and I am satisfied that what I have learned about hearing God over the last five years is still good, I am not building a doctrine (that's another attack to suggest we are moving away from the norm) I am growing in the Spirit.

I have even done what Todd tells us to do, Read the Word, seek Godly council and make your decision, that I have come to a different conclusion than you suggests that God has no definitive statement (is that an odioxron? I have no Idea how to spell that but Todd often talks about it)

Steve

Sorry to double post, but I've been thinking, Jon hasn't come up with any scriptures to say that God does not talk to anyone, the Scripture in Isaiah he suggests is for the Millenial kingdom and so God will speak then which means (if you follow Jon's logic) that while we are in the church age God doesn't speak (audibly) but He will start again when Jesus returns. This looks like building a doctine to me.

Lawevangelis wrote:

God does speak to us through it [the Word]. We need no further revelation.

I contend that because God tells me audibly to go and say sorry to my wife, he's not giving a new revelation (what's new about that it's all through the bible) He's just guiding us through the Spirit like He promised.

I've just had another thought , if we say that the Holy Spirit speaks to us (audibly) instead of God doing the speaking, does that solve any thing? May be its just a misunderstanding, you can clarify this, Jon, by telling us how the comforter comforts us without using words (and remember not everyone has a bible)

One last point that I thought of when I read...

testimonies of something they think has been God speaking to them

Does that sound like Genesis 3:1 where the serpent questions whether or not God has spoken (though I realise in this context it's truer to say that the serpent was questioning what God had said not whether or not He said it) it is still doubting God and His ability to guide us when we need it.

allhavsinned,

Speaking of straw men...

Using yet another experience (the church in Africa) to try to prove anything is yet another example of relativism. Or at least pragmatism ("Hey, it works, so it must be right.") I notice that you are ignoring the example of other religions who basically do the same thing with their experiences. That, my brother, is not a straw man argument. That is reality and illustrates the point why it's so vital to have a solid foundation built on the Word and not subjective, relativistic experiences.

And the worst straw man argument award in this discussion goes to the contention about the cultures who have no Bibles. Talk about a speculative point. It's similar to the straw man argument used on most college campuses about the cultures who have never heard of Jesus: do they go to Hell when they die?

The bottom line is that you have a Bible and I know that you know how to read it because you have quoted from it. Let's deal with real situations for the time being and realize that there are very few churches where there are not Bibles or at least portions of the Bible which have been translated.

Do you need God to tell you to apologize to your wife when you already have Ephesians 5:25-32? Could it be possible that it's just your conscience dealing with you because you know you have violated God's command?

As far as "building a doctrine" is concerned, it is. When did "doctrine" become evil? There's no such thing as a Christian who does not build doctrines; for example, the doctrine of the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, etc.

But the question is, "Do basic hermeneutics support reveal that the text in Isaiah is teaching what you claim?" Forget my eschatology for a minute and you still have the issue of that Scripture dealing with Jewish believers because that's what the text actually says.

In Christ,

Jon

bro John
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Jesus spoke to men when He was here and said Holy Spirit would come and teach us and lead us into all Truth. Just as men heard His voice then, men hear it now. when John wrote the Revelation he said he heard a voice behind him, that's pretty evident to me that God speaks to men still, why would He stop if He has so done all the while? one might say that the canon wasn't complete but there is no point in it where He said that He'd stop speaking to men. or do you know where the word says God doesn't speak to men any more?

you said:

Using yet another experience (the church in Africa) to try to prove anything is yet another example of relativism. Or at least pragmatism ("Hey, it works, so it must be right.") I notice that you are ignoring the example of other religions who basically do the same thing with their experiences. That, my brother, is not a straw man argument. That is reality and illustrates the point why it's so vital to have a solid foundation built on the Word and not subjective, relativistic experiences.

well we could say the same for what you have said that in your experience/understanding of scripture, God doesn't speak to men audibly any more.we could say that this is also a relative view based on your own experience/understanding However there are testimonies from some here which refute that and not only that but confirm that God still speaks to some audibly because there are confirmations from witnesses (other brethren) and most importantly what has been heard lines up with the word of God (scripture) rather than contradict it.

the experiences of John, Paul, the disciples and many others say God speaks to men still, audibly. Paul heard the voice of Jesus on the Damascus road, John heard it on Patmos, Art Katz has heard it, bro Mike C. has heard it and had it confirmed by witnesses (brethren) and the word of God.

God may not speak to you in an audible voice but He does speak to some in that manner and will continue to do so.

The bottom line is that you have a Bible and I know that you know how to read it because you have quoted from it. Let's deal with real situations for the time being and realize that there are very few churches where there are not Bibles or at least portions of the Bible which have been translated.

well i don't know how many churches in the early days had access to the full canon of the time as we do for them to read leisurely, however as they gathered we know the Spirit of God was present and spoke through men.

Do you need God to tell you to apologize to your wife when you already have Ephesians 5:25-32? Could it be possible that it's just your conscience dealing with you because you know you have violated God's command?

but isn't one's conscience the Voice of God? i don't think the 2 are separate. There are times when i have in mind to do or say something i ought not to and i hear His Voice saying "don't you do that..."

The way God speaks to each of us is Manifold, some hear His voice, others see it in His word, others see visions, some dream dreams and so on and so forth so God isn't limited in terms of His methods of communicating. The bottom line is we ought to observe the message and check the fruit and see because if it is God speaking through whatever way, audible or not, the fruit is always good, if it's the enemy, the fruit is always bad. The enemy can use the scriptures and twist them to mislead men which is what i believe to have happened with these wird doctrines which are going about and have been going about.

As far as "building a doctrine" is concerned, it is. When did "doctrine" become evil? There's no such thing as a Christian who does not build doctrines; for example, the doctrine of the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, etc.

well there are doctrines of demons which men can pick up and run with when satan deceives...so not every doctrine is good.

however God speaks to you may He continue to do so to His Glory and however He speaks to us all may HE continue and complete the work He began.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.

Amen Brother IronMan.

Jon, you mentioned the conscience, and Ironman believes it to be the voice of God, maybe, maybe not, let me ask Jon if he believes that we should never act against our conscience. That is what Todd Friel says and I actually go along with it, but the problem comes when we ask 'What does our conscience sound like?' What if our conscience told us to do something contrary to scripture? Could the Devil impersonate our conscience? Should we not test what our conscience says against the bible? You see our conscience could easily be refered to as 'I feel this is right' and we know we shouldn't go on our feelings.

Can I ask you to do something? re-read the whole of this thread, you hopefully will see that the arguments we are putting against you, which you are calling pragmatism, relativeism and straw men, are just the same as those which you are aiming at us. Could you also answer some of the direct questions and Scriptures that have been posted. You seem to think that because you are right you don't have to use scripture, and when we quote the Word to back up our points you either ignore it or say it's out of context.

It would be interesting to know exactly what verses are 'in context' to the way we live today, especially as most of the OT was directed to the Jews, then we can rip out all those pages which we don't need anymore and just concentrate on the 'good bits'.

As for me, if 'ALL SCRIPTURE' us useful to us, then I try to find out what God is saying to me when I come across a verse, I don't just say 'that's for the jews, I can ignore it'.

Let's have another look at John 10:27

you say it means 'my sheep receive my teaching'.

My bible says; 'hear my voice' KJV
'Recognise my voice' - LB
'Listen to my voice' - NIV, NCV and Jewish NT (trans.David Stern)
Matthew Henry in his commentary says 'they heard and believed His word'

And I haven't looked at any other versions so don't think I've picked out the ones that agree with me.

It seems that you are smashing your opinions into the scriptures when they clearly say 'VOICE' and you read 'TEACHING'

I will start a new thread putting forward my opinion that there are two ways the Devil decieves us, one when we listen to every wind of doctrine and get blown about all ways, and the other where the Devil tricks us into ignoring the voice of God, (not because it disagrees with the bible) and not acting in obedience with Him because we use the excuise; 'I need to go and check taht out when I get the time'

I believe that as long as we are reading our bible daily, and I mean studying it and delving into it, that when the Word of God prompts us we know it's Him because we know the bible, and in that way we are constantly in communion with Him.

One last point for Jon, what's the point of the Holy Spirit then, it seems that in your doctrine the Holy Spirit is either the same as the bible or the bible replaces Him.

What we're trying to do here, Jon, is to help you to see how you are missing out on your relationship with Jesus by not listening to Him when He speaks to you in His still small voice. Of course the bible is the most important guide, but it's not the only way He talks to us.

Try this, Ask God to reveal His will to you, and pick up the bible and read it (I'm sure you do this already) and ask Him to give you a direct yes or no on the matter. Don't ask others, God's perfectly able to lead you into all truth through your bible and the Holy Spirit helping you understand it.

Steve

I believe that both people on the opposing sides on this argument are sorta saying the same thing.

The problem i have with actual "Audible" i-can-hear-you-as-you-can-hear-me, 'music' loud-voice(just trying to make myself clear- lol) is that even with everyone’s testimonies it doesn’t seam to be actually happening.- they got a 'prompting' 'feeling' 'something said to me' 'i felt' etc. which is not audible- it might be clear but not actually audible.

ive been Christian(about 2 years or so now) i have been reborn and changed by God's holy sprit that lives in me- things i used to do i don’t do anymore and my flesh wars with the sprit constantly- so things my flesh would want to do i fight against- like for instance the example about 'apologise to your wife' this is a fruit of being reborn- the holy sprit changes you, makes your conscience tender and you know when you have done something wrong and you will have the attitude to apologise- even if your flesh doesn’t want to- “the war again”.

i constantly get guilt pangs and things when i-for instance drop rubbish mistakenly on the floor and then something tells me to 'pick it up'. now - this is something ive always got- before i was a Christian and get now im a Christian- so was God speaking to me to pick up rubbish before i was a Christian- or was my conscience just not hardened to picking up rubbish?
also i get thoughts telling me to do other things that are not good- now i know the devil cant read my mind- so im not sure how thoughts will come from the devil- although i have herd Todd say something to this effect about the devil firing thoughts about Gods existence to your brain or something.
And also for every testimony about god ‘speaking’ to not do something- you can find one in another religion- or also another one that said don’t do this- and you did and NOTHING happened.

i believe this feeling of knowing something is what some people are calling God speaking to them(so far it matches with the word) and others are calling a more informed conscience being subject to the leading of the holy sprit- im more in the second camp than the first.

When the people in the bible herd Gods voice THEY HERD IT- there was no... “hmmm is this God?” - they KNEW- no waffling no like.... “i have to check this up”- no ‘small leading’- it was GOD and a lot of the time VERY AUDIBLEY. im not saying God cannot speak audibly now if he wanted to- just that he gave his word for the reason that he wouldn’t have to????? he spoke to prophets- and others in a way they couldn’t misunderstand so his word can be canonised and they would have no trouble saying- GOD SAID:""

like the people on the God speaking camp- i have testimonies similar to yours- but i would call it the holy spirit informing my conscience and not letting me do the things i used to, or letting me live in sin, rather than God said apologise.- technically God did say apologise when u done wrong(im sure somewhere in the bible) lol.

i tend to see that people of teh more charismatic side of Christianity tend to put the other more conservative side down- thinking they haven’t attained some sorta 'level' of the sprit- because they don’t believe in things such as God speaking audibly or tongues to name a few, but i think we contend over a small minute part of God, fighting over it when there is an ocean of knowledge of God we don’t know.

Hope you were abel to understand what I said- I tend to ramble in my explanations.

Love in Jesus.

We've just posted Two Amazing Accounts of George Mueller, and Prayer
on our website. Which differs from decissions decissions.

On the flip side I know many people who have been seriously messed up when they thought God spoke to them.

A bit of balance is needed.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

How can anyone even question if God still speaks to us? He may not directly always speak to us, but Holy Spirit lives in us, and TEACHES us and councils us in Gods ways. I think, from the mind of God through Holy Spirit counts as communication.

Blessings Greg

intrcssr83,

I don't see how you can come out and throw Ray Comfort in the Charismatic box...because he has been on Joyce Meyer's show doesn't align him with her or her beliefs in anyway. And Calvary Chapel wants nothing to do with Charismania.

As far as Todd Friel goes, it is his show and he is going to speak to his listeners on his convictions......and you have to respect that, even if you don't agree.

But listen y'all if he is telling you to read the Word of God, isn't that going to lead you to all truths along with the Holy Spirit?

good points, brother SmokeyGreg....see you Saturday?

repentcanada wrote:
I don't see how you can come out and throw Ray Comfort in the Charismatic box...because he has been on Joyce Meyer's show doesn't align him with her or her beliefs in anyway. And Calvary Chapel wants nothing to do with Charismania.

I'm not sure where Ray leans on this issue, bearing in mind that if we were to listen to his really early stuff, he'd would have endorsed "human need centred evangelism". Few people have dug deep into the teaching of the reformers, without coming out Calvinist and Cessationist, but there are exceptions (yours truly included).

Friel, on the other hand, has very strong Reformed leanings, and considering his Lutheran theological training prior to his conversion, and his recommendation that people, who have completed the WoTM School of Biblical Evangelism, go through all the notes in the John MacArthur Study Bible, in order to solidify their theology, it's pretty obvious where he stands.

At the end of the day it is human nature to find any viewpoint, which is contrary to that which we are persuaded of, as being preposterous. My personal fear, regarding reformed types, is that they seem to continually fill it blank spots in issues that Scripture is either silent or vague about. I am reminded of the blind man's response to the Pharisees' interrogation, "One thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see."

Whether or not this is as bad, or worse than the Charismaniac superstition to that endorses all phenomena, untested I am unsure, but it disturbs me none the less.

Brothers and Sisters,

In an earlier post i referred to "Charismatics" as "Charismania". I ask you to forgive me for that, I know it can be taken in a way in which I did not mean.

For the record I don't hold to denominations at all, for we who have been born again are all "Christians".

God bless,
Ricky

Of course Christians can hear the voice of God. God is not dead, but very much alive and ready to minister unto the saints. John 10:4 and 10:27. His sheep know His voice. Prayer is communication with God, it takes two people. If you don't know the voice of God then you need to really start praying that God give you a visitation of His Spirit. He is a revealer of secrets and again ready to minister to the spirit of a man.

I'm just going to point out how from what i can tell most peoples arguments and support for one side or another seem just to be "personal experiences"s, "what i feel is"s and "what i believe"s despite claiming that scripture is sufficient.

One example of it that is heretical is

The great thing about theology is that you can choose one that will fit into what you want to believe. We all do this to a certain degree. Just because he knows his theology more or better then you know yours, doesn't mean that you are wrong (in context of hearing from God). Listen to what the Lord is telling you. If he wishes to mock those that disagree with him, then that is a road that he needs to be careful on, not you.

where did you get that conclusion from. The Bible makes it clear that God is eternal and never changing.(Psalms 119:137-144) I'm quite sure we can all agree on that, at least i hope we can. So we know that he does have a set standard that is completely and consistent. We should be trying to get our theology to match up as close as possible as his standard, through the bible.
And not picking one that suits you or in other words.
"choose one that will fit into what you want to believe."

If i got to choose what i wanted to believe in, nobody will go to hell except Hitler types, rapist/murders, and etc. But i know it doesn't matter what i want and that by God's standard we are all filthy sinners that helplessly deserve damnation.(Romans 3) Thats what makes his gift so great.

I think an interesting thing some people bring up, is why doesn't the Bible clearly teach us how to differentiate between God's voice and which ones are just our own thoughts or even worse the voices of demons. Because we can all agree listening to the wrong voice can/will lead to lots of problems...

Prayer is communication with God, and communication with God is not one sided. God is always wanting to speak to us, but many of us are too busy to listen to Him. Many of us live more out of our soul than out of our spirit, so we can't hear His voice. God is a Spirit, and he communicates to man through the born again spirit of man.

The Holy Spirit is the Sprit of truth that indwells the believer for the purpose of leading us into all truth. "Those that are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

The reason why there are so many arguments and such strife in the Body of Christ over doctrine is that there are many that are holding to their own opinions and traditions and are not being taught by the Spirit of God. If we were all being taught by the Sprit of God, we would be of one mind.

In His Love,

Mike