a rod of iron = a cross?

Over some time, I've felt that perhaps the 'rod of iron' is somehow a reference to the cross.

I'm posting this here as there are only four Bible references, so the interpretion must be scattered throughout other Bible pictures.

Here are a few thoughts from scripture.

Genesis 49:10
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [i]shall[/i] the gathering of the people [i]be[/i].

Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Numbers 24:17
I shall see him, but not now:
I shall behold him, but not nigh:
there shall come a Star out of Jacob,
and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel,
and shall smite the corners of Moab,
and destroy all the children of Sheth.

Deuteronomy 28:23
And thy heaven that [i]is[/i] over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee [i]shall be[/i] iron.

Psalms 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Daniel 2
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [i]that were[/i] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [i]things[/i]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes,
part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And [i]as[/i] the toes of the feet [i]were[/i] part of iron, and part of clay, [i]so[/i] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [i]is[/i] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Zechariah 10:11
And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall smite the waves in the sea, and all the deeps of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the sceptre of Egypt shall depart away.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son [i]he saith[/i],
Thy throne, O God, [i]is[/i] for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness [i]is[/i] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Also, I don't really want this to turn into another [i]end times[/i] conversation. Rather, I would like to get some feedback along the thought that if a rod of iron is a cross, does it also represent the sceptre of Christ, and, are the nations being disciplined by it already, since we have been coming into the church since the time of Cornelius?

OK.... I'm listening. :-)

The Bible says, He will rule the ***Nations*** with a rod of Iron.

This will be during the 1000 Year reign of Christ.

No one is going to be ruled in Heaven...how awful that would be.

Revelation says the Church, those who overcome, will reign and rule with Him during this time.

The Kingdom will be tough. Much of it is in Matthew.....it's law not Grace.

It will be better for one to cut off their hand or poke out their eye if it so offends. Why, because Justice will be swift during that time.

This is in Matthew and Matthew 24 calles it the Gospel of the Kingdom, and during that time the Gospel fo the Kingdom will be preached, picking up where John the Baptist left off.

Jesus said, the very least in Jesus Kingdom ( the Church...His Body....the one where He said MY Kingdom is not of this world...the one no flesh and blood can enter) will be greater than anyone in the earthly Kingdom.

Satan will be bound during the 1000 years, so no one will be able to say "The devil made me do it, or I was posessed by demons".

We see at the end when Satan is loosed that Gog and Magog (the war spoken in Ezekiel...at the end of the age) will take place, and many will wage war against Jesus Christ and the Saints, including people as well. Many will betray ( not the Glorified saints) as well.

Then comes the end, and the Great White Throne Judgement takes place after this.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Also, I don't really want this to turn into another end times conversation. Rather, I would like to get some feedback along the thought that if a rod of iron is a cross, does it also represent the sceptre of Christ, and, are the nations being disciplined by it already, since we have been coming into the church since the time of Cornelius?

Sorry Dorcas, but this IS end times verses. The problem is, many want to take these end times verses and make something else out of it.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all [u][b]rule[/b][/u] and all authority and power.

Psalm 2:8-10 This Promise is to Israel
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Revelation 2:27
And he shall [u][b]rule[/b][/u] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The Kingdom**S** of this world is gentile world power. The Kings of the Nations are overthrown by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

In the Lords Prayer, that prayer is/was a prayer for the future rule….Just listen,

Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. When the kingdoms of the worlds become the Kingdom**S** of our Lord, the whole earth will be a Theocracy, ruled by Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to [u][b]rule[/b][/u] all nations with a rod of iron:((KING)) and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.(((REDEEMER))

In the OT, there are two announcements of the Coming of Messiah, one of King, and one of Redeemer. One did not exclude the other. The Redeemer came first and now is this “MYSTERY of time called the Church age, where the Kingdom is not of this world. WE have been translated out of “ This present evil age”, into the Kingdom of His dear Son, Jesus Christ. We, His Body, are no longer part of this present world system called Mystery Babylon or arrogant gentile world power , that you now most clearly see a hatred towards Israel and it will get worse.

After the Mystery is complete….Revelation 10:7 , most probably the final preaching of the Gospel according to the Mystery, and the translation of the Church at this time, the announcement comes in Revelations 11, the final fulfillment of Messiah KING will be preached, and the fulfillment of the promises to Israel. Genesis 49 is the prophecy Jacob gave tot eh 12 tribes concerning the LAST DAYS, which are now coming to pass at the announcement of Revelation 11. All eyes now turn to Israel. Isaiah 14 is a most profound chapter concerning this time.

In Matthew 25, you will see the reference to KING, the one who judges the Nations and individual gentiles, not judged by the “Cross, but on works, and how the Jews were treated.

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall [u][b]rule[/b][/u] them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The Cross is a symbol of Mercy, the Rod is a symbol of God’s wrath.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

"...the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves..."

ChrisJD, the problem IS..many do want to use these verses to down play what they really mean. No accusations to Dorcas what so ever. Maybe she has heard someone else use these verses in a different way and is confused by it all...I really don't know.

ChrisJD, Scripture teaches scripture..So no one is striving here at all.

If by my placing scripture here bothers you in some way, and has not edified you in any way, I will not strive to argue. But you will see that 90% of that post was scripture concerning the ROD of Iron, and who it is used on, and why.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

IRONMAN said

we have no idea of being that it is a statement of God about Himself and He Himself is Infinite in Depth and Wisdom so much so that even througout eternity, we'll not get it all...

Colossians 2:
1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [i]for[/i] them at Laodicea, and [i]for[/i] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, [u]and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding[/u], [b]to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, [u]and of Christ[/u];
3 [u]In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge[/u][/b].

Note the use of the present tense, please. :-)

So brother, as you look to Christ and abide in Him, there are many many answers available [u]to you. Today[/u]. But you need to start thinking with your spirit in fellowship with God's and stop thinking with - as Mike Balog would call it - your fallen cranium. ;-) (I love you brother.)

And I will make some comments on your posts, eventually. I can't find 'David' in Ezekiel 36. So, is he somewhere else in the picture?

Also, as Katy mentioned the mystery earlier, I'd like to comment that I don't agree at all that the mystery is still a mystery, [i]to believers[/i] - if that's what you meant, Katy?

Also, as Katy mentioned the mystery earlier, I'd like to comment that I don't agree at all that the mystery is still a mystery, to believers - if that's what you meant, Katy?

No the Mystery is out in the open...no longer a Mystery to believers. Paul preaced the Gospel according to the Mystery..Romans 16:24-27. He urges the Church in Ephesians that WE, the Body of Christ, would know the HOPE of our calling.

Everything he preached along with Peter James John, Jude etc, are all of one mind and accord.

However there are several mysteries of the Kingdom, that include many things. There is also thee mystery of iniquity, the Mystery of Godlieness, etc.....probably coming under the heading of the *Hidden mannah* given to those who overcome spoken of in the 7 letters to the Churches. "The secrets of the Lord are with those who fear Him, and He will show them His Covenant".

Peter said of Paul, there are many things that are hard to understand, and those who are unlearned wrestle with to their own destruction.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

destinysweet said

He'll drop the revelation in if it is needed and important enough...don't you think?

I also realise that it may not be in everybody's gift to see what I see, but I know we all have the spiritual capacity to recognise truth when we hear it (read it... ;-) ) and certainly when I read a post which is filled with revelation, it is usually apparent the writer did not receive all this wisdom in one dollop, but they grafted for in the Spirit as well as with their heart and mind. I love that. At the same time, I know that putting in time studying and reading, does not guarantee revelation. One may simply walk away with a head full of someone else's opinions, because they didn't have revelation either... but they were full enough of their own ideas and confidence in them, to write a book about it all. :-? I fear that is what has happened to a lot of Christians.

What's worrying is that often these ideas have been lifted straight out of the Bible, but they are dead as a dodo. So chapter and verse may give credibility, but sadly, no life.

Aarons rod was in the arc of the covenant which was in the holy of holies...a shadow of what was to come in Jesus...

It is interesting that it was the high priest (Aaron), who wielded a life-displaying rod. It makes me think that we, as priests to God, also should allow the cross to make us life-givers to others. In fact, this is worship is it not?

Romans 12
1 I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to [u]present your bodies a sacrifice--living, sanctified, acceptable to God--your intelligent service[/u];
2 and be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for your proving what [i]is[/i] the will of God--the good, and acceptable, and perfect.

Well, those are a few thoughts. I am delighted to hear you play the guitar and love to worship in song. I do too and I know God loves to hear it.

These are some thoughts about the almond, from christiananswers.net. To follow the linked pages in the text, you need to open the page:

[url=http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/almond.html]Almond[/url]

"The almond tree is a native of Syria and Palestine. Its blossoms are very pale pink and appear before its leaves. Its Hebrew name, shaked signifies "wakeful, hastening" because it blossoms so early, generally in February, and sometimes even in January. In Eccl. 12:5, it is referred to as illustrative, probably, of the haste with which old age comes.

There are others, however, who contend for the old interpretation here. "The almond tree bears its blossoms in the midst of winter, on a naked, leafless stem, and these blossoms (reddish or flesh-coloured in the beginning) seem at the time of their fall exactly like white snow-flakes. In this way the almond blossom is a very fitting symbol of old age, with its silvery hair and its wintry, dry, barren, unfruitful condition."

In Jer. 1:11 "I see a rod of an almond tree [shaked]… for I will hasten [shaked] my word to perform it" the word is used as an symbol of promptness. Jacob wanted his sons (Gen. 43:11) to take with them into Egypt of the best fruits of the land, almonds, etc., as a present to Joseph, probably because this tree was not a native of Egypt.

Aaron's rod yielded almonds (Num. 17:8; Hebrews 9:4).

Moses was directed to make certain parts of the candlestick for the ark of carved work "like unto almonds" (Ex. 25:33,34)."

Katy said

The Cross is a symbol of Mercy, the Rod is a symbol of God’s wrath.

[color=0033FF]“For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,”
(Rom 6:5 NKJV)

This 'uniting with' in the consequence of the 'baptism into death' of verse 3.

He was baptized into what we had become. He was united with it so that the judgement that came upon Him came upon it. Once and for all. He was baptized into 'our death' and we must be baptized into His. He was united by baptism to what we were and we are united by baptism (not water) to what he is.

He became Sin and the judgement that was wreaked upon Him was wreaked upon Sin. Not 'sins'; they had to be forgiven but Sin cannot be forgiven it must be executed.[/color]

I quoted because that there above is one of the most concise and beautifully symmetrical statements I have ever seen, and I couldn't come anywhere close in my own words (as you all know!) - the cross being the means of mercy upon mankind, while God executes His wrath upon Sin in the person of Christ Jesus.

Often people refer to the cross when they mean the Lord on the cross, so I don't have a problem with associating the rod of God's displeasure over sin, with His mercy towards us in Christ.

Now... did you notice that? I've just swopped the wrath and the mercy... Didn't mean to, but aren't both true?

I often see several meanings in scripture, where a word is repeated in many different contexts, and I marvel at how much truth God conveys by this economy of terminology. It's one of the joys of reading His word. :-)

Hi rowdy2,

I liked your comments, which implied to me that the rod of God's law was helpful in bringing you to the Lord. As the cross, which is the symbol of Christ's victory, the rod appeared sweet, as Christ was disciplined by it in our place, long before we were born. And now, to be disciplined by it that we may receive His life, is light, compared with the weight it was to Him, although He overcame it - at the same time as submitting to it :-?.

I haven't looked at Esther recently, but I remember that the king's sceptre was the symbol of his power, and if he didn't hold it out to the person asking to speak with him, they were put to death. In that picture, by holding out the sceptre, the king was briefly sharing his power with the person, and even symbolically suspending his power, that the other person receive 'power' to speak with him.

Hi ChrisJD,

I looked up the references you offered, and wanted to acknowledge this one in particular from Acts 15:

14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
6 'After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.'

There is an intersection of thought in the terms 'tabernacle' and 'ruins' which shows that Ezekiel may not have understood that 'the tabernacle of David' was to be the Christ, and the 'ruins which had fallen down' which refer to the second temple, were to be rebuilt as the Church - the body of Christ on earth; He Himself having said in John 2

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

It seems to me that John is one of the most important interpreters of prophecy, along with Paul, and we must believe him, and let go of the many carnal explanations which are, apparently, accepted without question or recourse to any sort of biblical test or scrutiny. I don't know where they come from, but they are lacking a ring of truth. Personally, I'd rather have a handful of pieces of real truth, than a lot of padding from people who just kept talking to fill in the gaps they couldn't explain.

This is exactly what the Roman Catholic church did in the middle ages, and people believed them! We do not need to make the same errors.

It's on my mind that there is a terrifying amount of futurism put forward on SI, which I don't find easily supported by the written word.

Thus, expect my scepticism - especially if there is a New Testament writer who has [i]already[/i] given the interpretation for us. 8-)

I'm interested in this partly because IRONMAN quoted from Ezekiel, and made reference to David

22 "and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
23 "They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
24 " David My servant [i]shall be[/i] king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 "Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David [shall be] their prince forever.
26 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore.

Brother IRONMAN,

Surely these verses from Ezekiel 37 refer to the spiritual victory and rule of Christ?

There is a reference to 'one shepherd' in John 10.

Psalm 137
1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us [i]required of us[/i] mirth, [i]saying[/i], Sing us [i]one[/i] of the songs of Zion.
4 How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?
5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget [i]her cunning[/i].
If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase [i]it[/i], rase [i]it, even[/i] to the foundation thereof.
8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [i]shall he be[/i], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9 Happy [i]shall he be[/i], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. {the stones: Heb. the rock}

If the psalm above is read with a spiritual interpretation, then it prophetically describes the heart of a believer, in that we cannot be happy in the world of sin, which has become foreign to us. Even the that which sin gives birth to, must be dashed against [u]the[/u] rock. It must be ruthlessly destroyed. So, although we are now strangers and pilgrims, we have a new song.

This is an old chorus.

I've taken my harp down,
From the willow tree,
My heart is singing
The victory;
My sin is forgiven,
My home is in heaven,
All sorrow has gone
The glory has come
And now I am free.

:-D

Brother Eddie said

I believe we are living during the reign of Christ on Earth with a rod of iron and with the 144,000 saints simultaneously in the tender mercies of God in The Kingdom of Heaven. There is no peace on Earth but there can be in us as a well of living water if we don’t vex God's Holy Spirit.

there is a river that flows from deep within,
There is a fountain that frees the soul from sin;
Come to the water, there is a vast supply,
There is a river that never shall run dry.

You, Lord, are worthy of all my heart-felt praise,
You, Lord, have conquered to reign through endless days,
You, Lord, are risen - ascended far above,
You, Lord, have given the Spirit of Your love.

'I believe we are living during the reign of Christ on Earth with a rod of iron '

Because of the cross, and pentecost, by which all nations are eligible for God's blessing - the blessing of Abraham (Gal 3:14) - I believe this is a valid consideration of 'the rod of iron'.

Does anyone see a possible connection between the iron in the statue in Daniel 2, and the time of the cross of Christ?

Bro IRONMAN said

sis D i am curious what God shows you of this and so i look forward to hearing back from you!

I have been wondering if there may be something helpful in the series on The Priesthood, by Ron Bailey, which is posted on his website.

Do you think we could work together on this, listening to each one in the series of four - if we have enjoyed the first one enough ;-) - and discussing them as we go?

You see, I believe that if we understand what the priest forshadowed in terms of our role as priests unto God, then we shall begin to see the temple with spiritual eyes. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world, and we are used to living in a mixed society, where not everyone is a subject in His kingdom. But I believe in His kingdom there is no-one who is not a subject; that is, who is not willingly subjecting themselves to His kingship.

Our sister Katy has been taught that Christ as King is something for the future on earth, but that means we have to suspend the present tense in a great deal of scripture - even the Old when it is spiritually prophetic - and even when the present tense was written two thousand years ago.

This is partly what I mean by a terrifying amount of futurism. And I believe you too, bro IRONMAN, have been sucked into thinking naturally, instead of spiritually, about the kingdom that was being prophesied in the Old Testament.

Apart from listening to Ron Bailey on The Priesthood, it is perhaps also time we listened to the series on Church History by Edgar Parkyns, in which he places church history over the book of Revelation.

Has anyone posting here listened to it yet? There are also written notes to go with it, posted on Ron Bailey's website.

To me, IRONMAN, these are all part of the same thing - understanding what God is trying to communicate to us from the written word.

I see some of it in my spirit, but I feel ill-qualified to explain it. That's why I recommend we turn to a couple of men who have been called by God to teach.

I wonder how this series might change all our thinking?

[url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/details_26.html]The Priesthood Part 1[/url] [i]by Ron Bailey[/i]

Our sister Katy has been taught that Christ as King is something for the future on earth, but that means we have to suspend the present tense in a great deal of scripture - even the Old when it is spiritually prophetic - and even when the present tense was written two thousand years ago.

Dorcas, our Present Individual Believers Priesthood is based solely on those who are buillt up with Christ a Spiritual habitation...Jesus Christ the Chief Corner Stone.

He is head of the Body, adn we are members of His Body. We are NOW being prepared to reigh and rule with Christ during the future reign of Jesus Christ.

Scripture Teaches these facts and here they are:

1. cts 1:6&7 Jesus declaires there will be a Furure restoration to Israel.

Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

2.Paul also lays out in 1 st Corinthians 15 the order of events:

23But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits;

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[u]25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.[/u]

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

3. Prophecy in OT tell us Jesus Christ will rule during this time:

Zechariah prophesies of teh physical coming and reign of Christ upon the earth in Zech. 14. In Zech. 14:9 he says, “And teh Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.”

Isaiah 11:6-9 Isaiah speaks of the earthly reign of Christ by saying, “And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little boy will lead them. Also the cow and the bear will graze, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

[u][b][size=xx-small]again, not speaking of Heaven as there will be no nursing child in Heaven. We will be a NEW Creation in Heaven, and no one will be giving birth there.[/size][/b][/u]

Isaiah. 65:20 says, “No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; for the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed.”

[u][b][size=xx-small](This certainly ISN”T Heaven) Remember No more *death* in Heaven.[/size][/b][/u]

Isaiah 2:2-4 speaks of the same kingdom saying, “Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, ‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us concerning His ways and that we may walk in His paths.’ For the law will go forth from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. and He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.

[u][b][size=xx-small](Again, this is not a Picture of teh New Heaven and New Earth.[/size][/b][/u]

Now remember this is the New Heaven and New Earth spoken of in Revelation 21.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

I wonder how many builders of the temple reject Christ?

Jeff asked on another thread, and is just the answer to this:

Actually the Woman who rides the beast is exactly that...Apostate Christianity.

It is a mock priesthood, as you see "Mystery Babylon" wearing all the same clothing as a priesthood in Leviticus, yet the blue is missing...the blue represents Heaven, as we the church are.

It's those who have crowned themselves Kings and Priests at this moment....much like Neapolitan.

You see, Paul rebukes in Corinthians those he says" So you reign as Kings without us....yet we suffer, and are hated, go destitute, ect, ect. Then Says, be ye followers of me the way I am of Christ.

WE now are to keep the same mind in us that is also in Christ, who made Himself of no reputation and became obedient unto death.

WE follow the Lamb (suffering) now and will be rewarded and highly exalted later.

Paul said before he died in a Roman prison, I have kept the faith, I have finished my course, there is NOW laid up for me a Crown, that the Lord shall give me on [u]that day[/u].

Many want to wear their crown and reign as a Kings now, much like Neapolitan who arrogantly crowned himself.

Are these building the Spiritual Temple or an earthly Temple? Those who are trying to build a mock earthly temple are falling into what is called dominion Theology. Those who try to spiritualize away the promises given to Israel and apply now to the Church are falling into the hands of the Beast. Apostate Christianity "Mystery Babylon" rides on the back of the beast.

Yes, they have surely rejected the Chief Corner Stone, and the Rock of Offense is the Cross, I am crucified with Christ, no longer I but Christ.

We the Church follow the LAMB (now), and will be rewarded to reign and rule with Christ during His earthly Kingdom Reign.

See what Revelation 21 says about the Temple.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

2 Thessalonians 2:3-5

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[u]4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [/u]

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Tonight I'm going to start listening to the Priesthood series, and will post each one as I'm about to listen to it, but I do not intend to write a detailed summary. For us all, this should be about hearing with our spiritual ears.

Dear Katy,

I don't know if by your last post you are supporting the project to build a third physical temple somewhere on earth. I do not discount that some men may do that. But, if we believe that 'the body is the temple of the Holy Ghost', then this applies to every single human being, and the question of who is occupying that 'temple' is what should occupy the minds of those calling themselves Christians.

Yesterday I listened to Carter Conlon's
[url=http://media.tscnyc.org/mp3/2030608S1.mp3]Discerning the Fellowship of Jesus Christ[/url], and early on in his exposition, he comments that the Bible does not promise a great end time revival, but rather, apostacy. I completely agree, but he's the first person I've heard [i]put into words[/i] his rejection of the idea of an end time revival. Amen.

If we think logically about the apostate church, it will be made up of people who [u]do not[/u] have the Holy Spirit dwelling in the temple of their body. And, the one who [i][b]is[/i][/b] will indeed be the god that person worships, and will indeed be exalted [i]above God[/i] in their lives according to how they have fashioned him or according to the fashion of the god they espouse.

We could call this god 'not God' for the same meaning as the verses you bring from Thessalonians. By any definition this will demonstrate the outworking of the exaltation of the sinful life, perhaps epitomised in the idolisation of a man after Daniel 11's description:

36 `And the king hath done according to his will, and exalteth himself, and magnifieth himself against every god, and against the God of gods he speaketh wonderful things, and hath prospered till the indignation hath been completed, for that which is determined hath been done.
37 And unto the God of his fathers he doth not attend, nor to the desire of women, yea, to any god he doth not attend, for against all he magnifieth himself.
38 And to the god of strongholds, on his station, he giveth honour; yea, to a god whom his fathers knew not he giveth honour, with gold, and with silver, and with precious stone, and with desirable things.
39 And he hath dealt in the fortresses of the strongholds with a strange god whom he hath acknowledged; he multiplieth honour, and hath caused them to rule over many, and the ground he apportioneth at a price.

Brother IRONMAN,

I say the same to you with reference to the temple described at the end of Ezekiel, that it could be a description of precincts of the temple of the body, which is sanctified by the completeness of Christ's sacrifice of Himself. All those individual sacrifices brought by the prince, are significant of the sanctification of every area of the life of a man, and how He dwells with us, and causes us to dwell in purity.

I am sure of this: that Ezekiel is describing the temple of the Lord; not some false temple built by man according to men's carnal interpretations of a prophecy to which their understanding has long been dulled by unbelief and misinformation.

You might be interested in reading a post by RobertW which I've reproduced on p19 of the current Divorce thread (General Topics), because it shows how the rabbis eventually took to themselves [u]all[/u] authority [i][b]over[/b][/i] God's word. (The thread is named there, in which he wrote more on preaching to Jews.)

In practical terms, that raises a heavy question over how much an unconverted Jewish opinion may bring to the world's understanding of God's truth. As Robert studied with and under Jewish scholars, I respect his insight, highly. But not only that, his thesis is scriptural.

Re: whoa there sis...

IRONMAN said

just as there is a physical aspect to heaven

Thus when Ezekiel was shown what appeared to be a real place with a geographical location on earth, we cannot assume that the coming-to-pass of the [u]vision[/u] will be in [i]earth(l)y[/i] terms [i]only[/i] - if at all! Or, we [i]can[/i] make that assumption, but it remains an assumption, unjustified in the Spirit.

I don't know if by your last post you are supporting the project to build a third physical temple somewhere on earth. I do not discount that some men may do that. But, if we believe that 'the body is the temple of the Holy Ghost', then this applies to every single human being, and the question of who is occupying that 'temple' is what should occupy the minds of those calling themselves Christians.

Dorcas, That too depends on how literally you believe Matthew 24 and the times spoken of in Daniel it also refers to, whether you believe in a literal anti-christ. We know since teh beginning of the Church age there have been many anti-christs, however, do you believe the beast ( the anti-christ during the Great Tribulation is only spiritualized away or literal)

Also, if you want to spiritualize it, then many have the mark all ready without possibly knowing they have it. Worshiping anything that exalts itself above Jesus Christ. That would include teachers, denominations etc.

I showed scripture that points to a literal time Jesus will reign, pointing out it was not heaven, and also pointing out that it is not something we are going to spiritualize into being either. Will you have the power to make a cobra not bite a child? and a Lion lay down and play with you?

I personally believe in the Literal Reign of Christ. I personally believe the Church will have been translated and return with Christ ( Jude and Rev 19 and more) and they will have been Glorified together with Christ...the First resurrection, then the 1000 years and then the 2nd resurrection. Jesus promised those who overcome will reign and rule with him during that time of the 1000 years.......not now.

Here is prophecy that has NOT yet been fulfilled.
Please note verse

[u][b]7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. [/b][/u]

My dear friend, this has [u][b]not[/b][/u] yet come to pass. There has [u][b]never[/b][/u] been a time when the whole earth has been at rest. If you read this chapter you will see the literal of Revelation, and the fall of Babylon among other things.

SION is the Heavenly Jerusalem---check your strongs = Church Heavenly
ZION is the Literal Earthly City of Jerusalem =land, Earthly.

Isaiah 14
1For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

21Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

23I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

24The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

25That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

26This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

27For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

28In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.

29Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Thank you Dorcas for starting this thread. I've only just looked at it tonight and don't have the energy to study all the posts at the moment, so apologise if anyone has already said what I'm posting.

Sometimes we try to pin down Truth to our personal interpretation of it, and deny there is any other. This topic however, is so rich and many-faceted that no single interpretation or view can cover it.

I had certainly never thought of this angle, that there is a connection with the "rod of iron", with which the Lord rules, and will rule the nations, and the Cross.

My first reaction was :-? but things are beginning to percolate a bit now.

I'm not sure if one can say that the rod of iron = the Cross exactly, but there is another aspect that is clear, and is enough to meditate on for tonight: That is that Jesus has earned the RIGHT to rule with such a rod. He has the right as God of course, but the right [u]as a man[/u] had to be earned by His becoming a man, living as man was intended to live, and, as a man, overcoming all temptation to step outside the Father's will.

So we could say that the Cross represents the final climax of Jesus' earning this right to rule and to judge mankind.

Thus far I see the cross as the [u]means[/u] by which the authority to rule the nations was earned. And the rod is the [i]power[/i] by which that same authority is to be exercised.

So the rod and the Cross are not identical, but one proceeds and results from the other...

Does that make sense?

This ties in with Revelation 5:4ff
[color=990000]4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 ¶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.[/color]

No-one, even, (I say it reverently), the Father Himself, could open the scroll ushering in God's judgement upon earth (the seven seals). Angels couldn't do it becasue they were not, and never could be, true flesh and blood. Men could not do it because we are sinners since Adam's rebellion. Only Jesus could do it, by His sinless life, victory over sin and self and Satan's wiles, offerd up on the Cross.

The scripture that also came to mind while pondering this was in Psalm 23:4
[color=990000]"thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me".[/color]

The staff was a support to lean on, also an instrument in shepherding - guiding the sheep in the right way, pulling them back from straying and rescuing them from dangerous paths, cliffs etc.

However, the rod was a different matter; it was a [u][b]weapon[/b][/u] that could be used as a club, to defend against wild beasts and other enemies.

You could say that the staff symbolises authority (as Moses' staff - Heb matteh - before Pharaoh, and Aaron's "rod" that budded as sign of true priesthood); but the rod symbolises power.

A rod of iron is a fearsome instrument indeed, and being ruled by it is not pleasant!

But Jesus has earned the right to wield the rod and wear the victor's crown (Greek "stephanos", the wreath given to the one who won in the Games), and even promises it to those who, by His strength and life within, overcome as He has.

Revelation 2:26
[color=990000]26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
[/color]

Those are some conclusions and thoughts so far...

In Him

Jeannette

Katy-did wrote:

I don't know if by your last post you are supporting the project to build a third physical temple somewhere on earth. I do not discount that some men may do that. But, if we believe that 'the body is the temple of the Holy Ghost', then this applies to every single human being, and the question of who is occupying that 'temple' is what should occupy the minds of those calling themselves Christians.

Dorcas, That too depends on how literally you believe Matthew 24 and the times spoken of in Daniel it also refers to, whether you believe in a literal anti-christ. We know since teh beginning of the Church age there have been many anti-christs, however, do you believe the beast ( the anti-christ during the Great Tribulation is only spiritualized away or literal)

Also, if you want to spiritualize it, then many have the mark all ready without possibly knowing they have it. Worshiping anything that exalts itself above Jesus Christ. That would include teachers, denominations etc.

I showed scripture that points to a literal time Jesus will reign, pointing out it was not heaven, and also pointing out that it is not something we are going to spiritualize into being either. Will you have the power to make a cobra not bite a child? and a Lion lay down and play with you?

I personally believe in the Literal Reign of Christ. I personally believe the Church will have been translated and return with Christ ( Jude and Rev 19 and more) and they will have been Glorified together with Christ...the First resurrection, then the 1000 years and then the 2nd resurrection. Jesus promised those who overcome will reign and rule with him during that time of the 1000 years.......not now.

If man was created to be both a physical and spiritual being, and if there is to be a literal physical resurrection, as the Bible says and most Christians believe, then it follows there have to be both physical and spiritual aspects of Truth.

Using one to deny the other is wrong.

Blessings

Jeannette

IRONMAN wrote:
p.s. you and bro Ron are both in the U.K. right? how come it is typically brethren from there who tend not to see the relationship of Israel and God the Father as Husband and Wife such that there are some things which don't necessarily have to do with us?

Maybe its because I'm Welsh? :-D

in Him

Jeannette

Hi IRONMAN and Jeannette
I don't expect that we'll get this out of the way in just one post, but I have to tackle this at least

the relationship of Israel and God the Father as Husband and Wife

Please clarify - perhaps each of you need to - ideally, bringing scripture to the fore. Thanks. :-)

IRONMAN wrote:
on no i'm not making a sweeping assumption of every brother in the U.K. just saying that the only ones i've encountered who think that way happen to be from over there. i thought it was a curious thing, perhaps it's nothing.

It could be because quite a few of those from the UK on SI (including Dorcas and Ron Bailey, and at one stage myself) have had contact with, or belong to, a particular holiness, house church movement that has very strong teaching on the New Covenant and spiritual Israel.

While being under that kind of ministry was very helpful at a particular stage in my life, I eventually realised the lack of teaching re physical Israel was a deliberate omission, because of the belief that it no longer had any relevance.

My own eventual conclusion was that, while teaching on the New Covenant and spiritual Israel is vitally important and absolutely true, it can cause serious imbalance if focussed on to the exclusion of other truths. Especially, it can overshadow, or even lead to complete denial of the continuing position of Israel in God's present scheme of things, [i]as well as[/i] the spiritual Israel. Even though the latter takes precidence.

Which is why I said in another post on this thread (new emphasis on “both”):

If man was created to be both a physical and spiritual being, and if there is to be a literal physical resurrection, as the Bible says and most Christians believe, then it follows there have to be [i][u][b]both[/b][/u][/i] physical and spiritual aspects of Truth.

Using one to deny the other is wrong.

Linn (Dorcas) and I have discussed this issue before, on and off forum, ad nauseum, (spelling?) and it isn’t really the topic of this thread, but I just wanted to make that clear.

Yours in Him

Jeannette

IRONMAN said

there is yet a temple there and so there is still a physical one needed here.

i agree that the Kingship of Christ is for now ...but there is also a future aspect of it too which can't be ignored.

Okay, let me supply an answer, but feel free to correct it. The reason today's today has arrived, although it was in the future two days ago, is because time has flowed continuously on since two days ago, to bring us to today. At any given moment during that 'time', it was 'today' - regardless of which day it was.

Therefore, I do not expect to arrive in 'the future' unless all the atomic time dots continue to connect between now and then. It's that simple. I am not 'ignor'ing 'the future' as it races towards us relentlessly, but I do refuse to keep cutting off chunks of 'now' as if one important 'future' day stays the same distance from 'today' as it was yesterday. It's this that I'm resisting with a will.

This truth applies in the Spirit to everything that matters to God, particularly to the Church, which began on the day of Pentecost and continues until now, no matter what men may try to do to diminish her. As you know, I believe the Israel which [i]will be[/i] saved, is the Church. If we want to discuss that again, let's have a different thread, please.

i believe there is a futuristic aspect to this but that doesn't mean i am unaware of the present nature of this, i bless God i am. it's just that it doesn't end there and it seems to me that we have forgotten that.

i will listen to those sermons as God gives Grace sis

Jeannette said

Using one to deny the other is wrong.

Regardless of your answer to that, is there any hope of agreement between us all - all five of us who've written in this thread so far - that the physical nature of His resurrection body is different from the physical nature of the body He had before He died?

:-D

Jeff asked

I wonder how many builders of the temple reject Christ?

The question itself contains an irreconcilable oxymoron.

dorcas wrote:

Hi IRONMAN and Jeannette
I don't expect that we'll get this out of the way in just one post, but I have to tackle this at least

the relationship of Israel and God the Father as Husband and Wife

Do I read this as God the Father is married to Israel, and Christ is to marry the Church?

Please clarify - perhaps each of you need to - ideally, bringing scripture to the fore. Thanks. :-)

I didn't write the above. It's a concept I've heard before but haven't really thought about it much, just taken it as Scripture states, rather than trying to analyse, let alone justify this idea. Why you should want such justification I don't really know.

However, there are of course many references in the OT that Israel is the Lord's "wife" - especially in the context of her unfaithful behaviour in following idols. Hosea, and Ezekiel 16 come to mind for starters.

And yet, unlike all other nations, He never utterly and permanently "divorces" Israel. Even when the northern kingdom (called "Israel" was lost, there was still a "faithful remnant" of those from other tribes, who became incorporated into Judah.

One of the plainest of several references to God's special relationship with Israel the nation is in Jeremiah 30:

[color=990000]11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.[/color]

While, I believe, the doctrine of the remnant is still in force, and includes a remnant even from within the Church (which is also unfaithful, just as Israel was), I also believe that the special status of Israel as a nation is still in force for the present: as a witness to the nations of the world of the power of God, if nothing else.

But Paul also says, [u]to the Church[/u], in 2Corinthians 11
[color=990000]2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.[/color]

and in Ephesians 5
[color=990000]31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.[/color]

...Can we get back to the main topic of the thread now?

Please? :roll:

in Him

Jeannette

dorcas wrote:
Jeannette said

Using one to deny the other is wrong.

Are you implying that I don't believe Jesus had a physical resurrection body?

I'm off to bed

Good night xxx

IRONMAN said

whereas we know the sacrifice of Christ to have been once and for all.

This vision was given to Ezekiel - a man of God. It was not a vision of useless sacrifices which made no difference. Although man may use it as a pattern for a physcial temple and an new generation of bloody sacrifices, they would be worthless in the sight of God, as would that physical temple, [u]because[/u] the Messiah [u]has already[/u] come. And not recently.

if this is descrptive only of the temple of the Lord, how come in Revelation 21 there is no more a temple to Him?

The Father has something He wants to work out with ISrael as a nation to bring them to Salvation. Israel being His Bride means that [b]there are some things which don't have anything to do with us[/b].

As I've said, I also believe God wants to save physical Israel, but like RobertW, I believe that in every generation the gospel has been open to Jews, ever since the day of Pentecost, and as then, when individuals asked Peter 'what shall we do?' (to be saved), the answer has not changed. This is another aspect of the I AM in whom we live and move and have our being.

say in short order we will know whether the temple is only spiritual or physical also.

is our attitude toward Israel being brought home like that of the father who ran to embrace his long lost son or are we going to be like the brother who stayed home and got mad when dad threw a big party for the prodigal's return?

So I ask... are things in America really so strained, that people calling themselves Christians (note my choice of words) are at loggerheads over whether it is [u]okay[/u] for Jews to be saved? Are there folk who [i][b]believe[/i][/b] no more Jews should ever be saved? Because if so, I'd like to distance myself from both, and to reject the faintest scent of anti-Semitism. I have never, am not, nor believe it is the will of God, that Jews should not be saved. To me, that is THE most ridiculous, unbiblical and indefensible mindset a 'professing' Christian could possibly maintain.

I hope that's clear enough.

Hi Jeannette,

I too would like to get back the original topic, but I don't mind passing through these matters briefly.

Why you should want such justification I don't really know.

And yet, unlike all other nations, He never utterly and permanently "divorces" Israel.

Jeannette said

Of course not, and you know it!

I'm saying that you are using this method to deny the significance of physical Israel.

Romans 10:4
For Christ [i]is[/i] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Every one who believes is of significance in Christ, Jews not more than gentiles. I know we agree on this.

What is your understanding of Heb. 1:1 and 2 Pet.1:19? RayinPA

Lk.13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Your house is left to you desolate - Is now irrecoverably consigned to desolation and destruction: And verily I say to you, after a very short space, ye shall not see me till the time come, when taught by your calamities, ye shall be ready and disposed to say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. It does not imply, that they should then see Jesus at all; but only that they would earnestly wish for the Messiah, and in their extremity be ready to entertain any who should assume that character.

Matt.21:18 18Early in the morning, as [Jesus] was on His way back to the city, He was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, He went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then He said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

Gal.6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Rom.9:6,7
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

Rom.2:28,29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The abomination of desolation was prophesied by Jesus to be in the physical temple and shortly thereafter it came to pass even as He prophesied. 70AD

Re: Hosea

Bro IRONMAN

the book of Hosea does speak of the relationship of God and Israel in terms of Marriage. God in many places through the prophet speaks of Israel sins as infidelities/whoredoms which are an affront to the closeness of relationship which is supposed to be there and is oft illustrated as being that of husband and wife. that the term whoredom is used i believe is indicative of that relationship.

Bro IRONMAN said

i don't understand why God would have him write about sacrifices in that temple

It's difficult to begin to discuss what [i]spiritual sacrifices[/i] they might be, while you are so sure they refer to dead animals.

I'm just putting that there for you to consider. I don't know that I can put into words what I was understanding when I was last reading Ezekiel's description. My main problem is context, because I'm not familiar enough with the detail of the Old Covenant sacrifices.

EDIT:

guess then the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel where then man of sin sets himself up to be worshipped as God has to do with antichrist hijacking the church? Paul does say that he will do so.

Katy was talking about the counterfeit system in an earlier post. I don't think we should forget that we are called out of the counterfeit system. Woe betide us if we don't develop the necessary discernment to abstain from fleshly lusts, and cleanse our garments, and be found unto praise and honour of God.

I remember the first time it was pointed out in my hearing, that the reason a third of the angels were cast out of heaven with Lucifer, is that they had all been lined up to follow him and were drawn out by his tail.

We need to make sure we are folloikng Jesus of Nazareth, and not some recently-manufactured imitation deity.

Bro IRONMAN, you have me smiling over your 'trippin'.'

And, I don't know what you mean by 'Israel coming to Salvation' as if she has not been coming to Salvation since Pentecost. See, it's that futurism sneaking under your radar again ;-)

but this distinction isn't one of disunity but one in which both sides need one another

Oh My Dorcas, remember when I said National Israel was set aside until the fulness of the Gentiles come in. HAS that fulness happened yet? Are gentiles still getting saved?

Well, with the Apostacy going on, maybe the days of Gentiles will soon come to an end, considering God said not to be ignorant of this Mystery lest you too be broken off.

The ***Deliver*** will come out of SION...this is the Second Coming of the Lord to Earth.

Who do they need to be delivered from?

Revelation.....and they overcame the beast and sang the song of Moses.

Do you remember the story of Israel in Captivity in Egypt, (there arose a King of Egypt that knew not Joseph)

You see, the Story of Joseph parallels Romans 11.
Joseph is a Type of Christ.....rejected by his brethren left for dead...goes to the Gentiles, where the Gentiles Pharoah honors Joseph's God and all Egypt is blessed through Joseph.....Then Israel comes to Egypt and his brothers who eventually find out who he is fall to their knees (they looked upon him who they peirced) this moment represents the Church Age of both Jew and Gentile.

However God is not finished with Israel....because they were promised something through Abraham...the Promised Land.

Well, there arose a King in Egypt that knew not Joseph and put Israel under harsh and cruel living arrangements. Moses, a Type of Christ is sent to deliver Israel out of Egypt.

Just as arrogant gentiles today have forgotten the everlasting Promises to Israel, Jesus Christ, the Deliver will come this time Himself, and crush this Gentile world power who is now anti-semitic.

Matthew 25 is the Judgement of nations and individual Judgements for or against those on How they treated Israel, and how individuals treated the Jewish people.

Every Nation in History that has turned their back on Israel and the Jews has been cursed by God. Look up Spain's History for one. That is a whole other thread to discuss.

Romans 11

[b]26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [/b]

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[b]26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [/b]

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

If you believe we are all one in Christ and there is no Jew nor Greek, then don't even think about 'sides'. It's carnal. That's what Paul is speaking against. You, me, we.... are not to think there are 'sides'. Is this a difficult concept?

Dorcas, the Gospel according to teh Mystery...the Church is what Paul is talking about...and must never be used as a weapon against the promises to Israel.

The Church His Body will reign and rule with christ during His Kingdom reign on earth where both fleshly Jew and Gentile will exist...they will not be a new Creation...WE ARE...His Body.

This is the Mystery of the Church, **we are** bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. A heavenly organism, returning with Jesus Christ ( Jude) to execute judgement on arrogant Gentile world power....and to crush Mystery Babylon...the Apostate church who has ridden on the back of the Beast who hates Israel. Can't you see it all falling into place as we speak? I can!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
PS: The greatest black eye the professing church has ever known has been the Crusadrs, Inquisition, and the those guilty during the Holocaust.

That too is another thread.

But here is some interest on Spain right up to today!
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-perednik-f03.htm

Thank you, Katy, and IRONMAN for expounding further your concerns and beliefs. Yes, God has said 'Vengeance is Mine. I will repay.' All that is wrong with the attitude of men [u]to God[/u], will be judged. Until then, we all have the option - those who have never turned to Christ and those who count themselves in Him already, to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God.

I confess I have no idea how either of you can justify a future for Israel separately from the New Covenant, although I do [i]understand[/i] from all that you say, that there is a large body of opinion which supports this conclusion.

I wonder, in that case, why it was not offered as an alternative to the cross when Paul was preaching?

I also wonder what he meant, and whether you believe him (regardless of how that might wreck your current thinking - bearing in mind that we all need to have our minds [i]renewed[/i]) when he says this:

2 Corinthians 1
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [i]even[/i] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20 [b]For all the promises of God in him[/b] [i]are[/i] [b]yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us[/b].

I have always understood those to be two of the most dynamically revolutionary verses in the New Testament, and I personally believe them.

My question to both of you, therefore, is:

Which of God's promises is [i]not included[/i] in the word 'all'?

I'm going to find the thread where we discussed the temple previously, to carry over a couple of points from the discussion started here.

confess I have no idea how either of you can justify a future for Israel separately from the New Covenant, although I do understand from all that you say, that there is a large body of opinion which supports this conclusion.

Frankly Dorcas, I have no idea how you can relate the Cross to a Rod of Iron either....unless well,

If I may remind you again, when Jews see the Cross, that is exactly what they see because of the cruelty of the Crusades and the Inquisition. The do not see it as a symbol of love and Mercy.

Are you advocating this same kind of Dominion Theology, that God is finished with Israel?

Christianity does not FORCE itself on anyone, not even with a Rod. We, lay down our lives for the Lost....not take them, or use the Cross as a Symbol of wrath and judgement we execute or administor on anyone. That is the difference between Christianity and other hostile religions.

Neither does God force Christianity on anyone...remember whosoever will. However God will break the necks of those who think more highly of themselves then they ought!!!

The Promises to Israel go beyond the New Covenant Dorcas.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

"What are the covenants in the Bible?"

The Bible speaks of five different covenants that God made with the nation of Israel. Four of them are unconditional in nature. That is, regardless of Israel's obedience or disobedience God still will fulfill these covenants with the nation of Israel.

One of the covenants is conditional in nature. That is, this covenant will bring either blessing or cursing depending on the Israel's obedience or disobedience. This is the Mosaic Covenant.

Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12:1-3, 6-7; 13:14-17; 15; 17:1-14; 22:15-18). In this covenant, God promised many things to Abraham. He personally promised to Abraham that he would make his name great (Genesis 12:2), that he would have numerous physical descendents (Genesis 13:16), and that he would be the father of a multitude of nations (Genesis 17:4-5).

God also made promises regarding a nation called Israel. In fact, the geographical boundaries of the Abrahamic covenant are laid out on more than one occasion in the book of Genesis (12:7; 13:14-15; 15:18-21).

Another provision in the Abrahamic covenant is the fact that the families of the world will be blessed through the physical line of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 22:18).

Palestinian Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10). The Palestinian covenant amplifies the land aspect which was detailed in the Abrahamic covenant. In this covenant, God, because of their disobedience, would cause the people of the nation to be scattered around the world (Deuteronomy 30:3-4), and that God would eventually restore the nation together (verse 5). When the nation is restored, then the nation will obey him perfectly (verse 8), and God will cause them to prosper (verse 9).

Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7:8-16). The Davidic covenant amplifies the seed aspect which was detailed in the Abrahamic covenant. The promises to David in this passage are very significant.

God promised that David's physical line of descent would last forever and that his kingdom would never pass away permanently (verse 16).

This kingdom, furthermore, would have a ruling individual exercising authority over it (verse 16). Obviously, the Davidic throne has not been exercised at all times. There will be a time, however, when someone from the line of David will again sit on the throne and rule as king. This future king is Jesus as Luke 1:32-33 mentions.

New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The New covenant is a covenant made with the nation of Israel which speaks about the blessing aspect which is detailed in the Abrahamic covenant.

In this covenant, God promises to forgive sin and there will be a universal knowledge of the Lord (verse 34). It even appears that the nation of Israel will have a special relationship with their God (verse 33).

Gentiles are partakers of the everlasting Covenant promised in Genesis 3:15, and will inherit the Promise of the Holy Spirit and forgivness of sin through the New Covenant. They will inherit the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant.

Scripture has layers of truth, and one must discern the physical from the spiritual. Spiritually we inherit the promises to Abraham through Jesus Christ. Physically we, the Church do not inherit the physical promises of the land God gave to Abraham and his descendents.

Revelation 12, the Woman holding the 12 stars clothed in the sun and the moon under here feet is the rebirth of Israel. Please refer to Joseph's dream.

When Jesus refers to Himself as the ***root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star, this is referencing Jesus as KING and the Davidic Covenant...Yes, the King is coming.

The *Star* is always a symbol of Israel.

Star of David!!! Remember!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

dorcas wrote:

Why you should want such justification I don't really know.

Only if you believe it... I'd hope you had scripture in mind.

And yet, unlike all other nations, He never utterly and permanently "divorces" Israel.

He never utterly and permanently 'divorces' all other nations either. That is exactly the point. Amen.

in Him

Jeannette

Hi IRONMAN

but i'm talking about the blindness which Paul talks about until the number of gentiles is full.

We all know that Jesus said

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [i]their[/i] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [i]their[/i] eyes, and hear with [i]their[/i] ears, and should understand with [i]their[/i] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [i]are[/i] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [i]men[/i] have desired to see [i]those things[/i] which ye see, and have not seen [i]them[/i]; and to hear [i]those things[/i] which ye hear, and have not heard [i]them[/i].

and

Luke 4
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord [i]is[/i] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave [i]it[/i] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth...

Jesus took Isaiah's words to Himself in Matt 13 and v 14 He clearly says that Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled in that generation.

Isn't it time to let this one go as well ...?

Katy, I heard you say you don't believe the rod of iron is a cross, but we are still digging out other areas of controversy, so I'll stick with the current piece of discussion for the moment.

I am indebted to you for another excellent post on the Covenants. I need to paste it into a document for future reference and study it.

In the meantime then, you have clarified that you do not believe

2 Corinthians 1
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20 For [u]all the promises of God in him are yea[/u], and in him Amen, unto the glory of God [u]by us[/u].

[by us = the Church]

include

Physically we, the Church do not inherit the physical promises of the land God gave to Abraham and his descendents.

If I have this correct, you are saying that only those who the Lord knows are true Israelites by natural birth are going to return to the land of Israel. Those nearly-Israelites who do not qualify ethnically, will be excluded from Israel. Thus, Israelites who do not accept Christ as Saviour are going to dwell with Israelites who do, in fulfillment of the promise of returning to the land, which you exclude from Paul's 'all'.

I'll let you answer that first, to avoid confusion.

IRONMAN said

i never said anywhere that ISrael's future is somehow separate from the New Coventant. you came to that conclusion even though i said that it's not that Israel's future is separate from the New Covenant but Israel's future depends on it.

Why then, are you not taking your lead from Paul the apostle to accept his teaching that we are one body in Christ Jesus (Eph 4)?

At the risk of taking them out of context let me comment briefly on two things said in recent posts:

[Katy]

the Gospel according to the Mystery...the Church is what Paul is talking about...and [i][b]must never be used as a weapon against the promises to Israel[/b][/i].

[Dorcas]

I confess I have no idea how either of you can justify a future for Israel separately from the New Covenant.

The Bible contains many truths that we find controversial because they appear at first glance to contradict or be mutually exclusive. Like the Church and Israel, or predestination and freewill.

Forget the apparent contradictions, stop assuming that one has to be true and the other false (or obsolete in the case of Israel)! Stop analysing the tune, just listen to the music!

An illustration of how this works is Welsh [i]penillion[/i] singing (which probably none of you have heard of!). This consists of two completely different tunes are interwoven into one music. Usually a harp accompanying a singer. Something like a descant to the main melody but the tunes are much more diverse than any descant. Yet, when done well, the tunes (and even a few discords) intertwine beautifully and the whole resulting effect is amazing. Each is according to a different tune, yet each would be incomplete without the other.

In Him

Jeannette

dorcas wrote:
OK. But why do you continually give the impression then, that Israel has a separate end from gentile Christians, when Paul says five times that the gospel is the same to Jews and Greeks, and in three places (one overlapping with the comment about Jews and Greeks) that there is [u]no difference[/u] between them.

Why then, are you not taking your lead from Paul the apostle to accept his teaching that we are one body in Christ Jesus (Eph 4)?

I thought that the disagreement was to do with the position of Israel, not the postition of Jew and Gentile within the Church.

[i]Of course[/i] we are one in Christ when we come to Him, whether we were originally Jew or Gentile. Is anyone disputing it?

You still seem to misunderstand the focus of this disagreement, because you asked, "why do you continually give the impression then, that Israel has a separate end from gentile Christians."

Jewish [i]Christians[/i] do not have a separate end from Gentile [i]Christians[/i], and I don't think anyone has suggested that they do.

Blessings

Jeannette

Hi Jeannette,

Jewish Christians do not have a separate end from Gentile Christians, and I don't think anyone has suggested that they do.

Now, in presenting 2 Cor 1:20 and asking which promise(s) of God are not included in Paul's 'all', Katy says that the promise to Abraham of the land is not to the Church.

She mentioned that the woman with the twelve stars in Rev 12 is Israel - ref Joseph's dream.

Yet I am sure that Wesley and others believed the woman is the Church. To me, this does not conflict with Joseph's dream, or the Old Testament, which as it progresses, makes clear that the only 'Israel' which is going to [i]receive[/i] [u]the land[/u], are those who have put away their idolatry. (The rest are going to be destroyed.) In my understanding, that means those Jews [i]are[/i] going to be partaking of [i]all[/i] God's promises - including that of the land - will do so through the New Covenant.

What land? may be a different discussion, but I believe that in the terms of God's promises, the only Israel which will remain, must be in the New Covenant, and I - as a maybe Gentile maybe Jew - will be as much a partaker of the promise of 'the land' as any other. Of course, I have been reared on 'the land' being spiritual - or, on the new earth - but there is no denying Exodus 19:5.

My mind is totally boggled by what has been a regular feature in a number of discussions, that the Church does not include Israel, or, that Israel is a part of the Church which has separate identity from the rest. I don't get it. It makes no sense to me at all. I freely admit this. And, I don't find it in the New Testament - which is even more bothersome.

Sorry Katy. I intend to answer one of your earlier posts now.

Hi Katy, you said

Frankly Dorcas, I have no idea how you can relate the Cross to a Rod of Iron either

If I may remind you again, when Jews see the Cross, that is exactly what they see because of the cruelty of the Crusades and the Inquisition. The do not see it as a symbol of love and Mercy.

There are Gentiles too, who hate the memory of the Inquisitions and the Crusades, but no-one gives them a bye out of God's revelation because it's unpalatable to their natural man. I myself had a very big problem with the message of the cross, because I was deeply offended personally, that it told me [i][b]I[/i][/b] was such a sinner, that a very special Man had to die for me. I wasn't bothered about His death at all. I was upset that this was God's verdict on [u]my[/u] condition. I was upset that if I was to get close enough to God to lay hold on the gift of life, I had to overcome my pride and admit I needed His help. [i]Then[/i], I had to admit publicly that I was [i][b]that bad[/i][/b].

The whole experience of accepting the necessity of Christ's death was offensive... but was it worth dying eternally to avoid? More to the point, could I carry on resisting the love of God which was continually calling to me in my depths?

I had to come to a place of agreement with God, and this is the basis of salvation for us all. We know there is no other way than Jesus Christ.

Are you advocating this same kind of Dominion Theology, that God is finished with Israel?

Christianity does not FORCE itself on anyone, not even with a Rod.

My understanding of His kingdom, is that we have become His subjects by choice and love, and there [u]won't be anyone else[/u] who doesn't want to be there, being ruled by Him. That's why it's a kingdom of light and love, liberty and rejoicing, worship and communion.

This is one reason I suggested the rod of iron is the cross, because the cross does rule everything in His kingdom. It is the symbol of His power, His victory, His authority, His kingdom.

We, lay down our lives for the Lost....not take them, or use the Cross as a Symbol of wrath and judgement we execute or administor on anyone.

The cross has become the symbol of God's wrath and judgement of [u]sin[/u], which we all have to negotiate. Jesus took that judgement for us and that wrath, that we may [u]escape[/u] it, through acknowledging our need of a deliverer.

That is the difference between Christianity and other hostile religions.

The Promises to Israel go beyond the New Covenant Dorcas.

Katy said:

If I may remind you again, when Jews see the Cross, that is exactly what they see because of the cruelty of the Crusades and the Inquisition. The do not see it as a symbol of love and Mercy.

Dorcas said:

This may prove the downfall of those Jews then. Isn't this what Paul wrote in the beginning of his first letter to the Corinthians - a rock of offence?

The downfall of those Jews then... Excuse me!!!!

Dorcas, Have you read Romans 11. I guess you really don't understand it then!???

Dorcas, Paul open up the Gospel according the the Mystery. The MYSTERY is the Church, the Body of Christ...and he wants us to know the hope of [u][b]OUR[/b][/u]calling.

If you fail to understand this, you will never understand anything else.

PAul and Peter and Jude and other writers make many references to the end, ...that it will be a time of God's wrath and Judgement towards those who have rejected the Gospel...Thesselonians...Jude...etc.

Even in Colossians Paul refers to a time "a shadow of things to come".....stating WE the Church NOW are not bound by these things. If it's a shadow of things to come, it obviously hasn't come yet...correct.

Nevertheless, the lost must turn to the cross for salvation, just as we did. It is still a kind of violence to the natural man - an accepting of God's work in us willingly, because there is life and health in His remedies.

Are you a universalist Dorcas, where you believe God is going to force salvation on everyone whether they want it or not? You sound like someone that use to be on line who believed that the Spirit of Christ was in everyone, even the 1st Adam, and if only he submittted to the Cross???? there would be no need for Jesus #2.

Many universalists also believe that Hell is only a temporary place for those who rejected the cross, and will be purified there and then let out.

Nevertheless, the lost must turn to the cross for salvation, just as we did. It is still a kind of violence to the natural man - an accepting of God's work in us willingly, because there is life and health in His remedies.

The Lost MUST turn to the Cross for salvation....??????Where on earth does the Bible say this??????

The Rod is a Rod of [u][b]IRON[/b][/u]. Quite different then Psalms 23...Thy rod and staff they COMFORT me. Here in the 23 Psalms the Lord our Shephers LEADS us, He's not standing behind us beating us into submission. Take my yoke upon you for it is light.

Now if you are talking about the Cross, I believe that was a piece of wood, not Iron.

Our identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life begins here as we walk in the Spirit and don't give way to our earthly fleshly impulses. Romans 8:11-13 state this is the ministry of the Holy Spirit ....if we through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh....again, no Iron Fisted Holy Spirit here.

We live by FAITH that works through LOVE only!!

Again, those who are lead by the Spirit are the Children of God....

Other references to Iron is " An Iron Fist".

Nor does Jesus Rule His Church with an Iron Fist.

God is Love and Perfect LOVE casts out fear..1st John.

Again Dorcas:

[b]We live by FAITH that works through LOVE...... only!![/b]

What you are suggesting is some sort of legalistic relationship.

One day, we will stand before Jesus Christ called the Judgement seat of Christ, and will be rewarded then as to how we obeyed. Many things will be burned, yet those who belong to the Lord will still be saved.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Dorcas, I must stress this again. Those who are falling into line with Dominion Theology as you have stated here you believe in, are falling into the hands of anti-christ.

As anti-christ will try to beat people into submission to worship him, sitting in the temple, as though he were god, forcing an iron fist of a perverted form of christianity on the world.

Dorcas, everything you are saying is exactly that. Because people do not know their Bibles and how to rightly divide the word of truth, they will parish.

You are advocating the Body usurp authority over the Head, Jesus Christ, taking matters into their own hands to bring in a perfect Kingdom when Jesus returns.***This is the great deception** of which many will be deceived....also following those who are doing many miracles signs and wonders (witchcraft really) in order to gather together many who will worship the beast, having no discernment as to testing the Spirits. They will believe anything they see...simply because it is a miracle.

No where does Paul put the Church in such authority.....ever!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS: Added for content.
There have been many instances of this mock form of Christianity.

Reminded of a different time with this kind of violence was when Calvin...also nicknamed the Protestant Pope, set up his own Theocracy in Geneva.....burned people at the stake ((just as the Catholic Church))) ( more then 125) who disagreed with him.

The Church is not called to set up a Theocracy on earth. There was only one Theocracy...Israel, and one again when Jesus Christ returns and sets up the Millennial Kingdom Reign HIMSELF. Anyone trying to do this before Christ is anti-christ.

Hi Daniel. Maybe in some points, but I do understand much of where Dorcas is coming from as with many today; It's called anti semitism and the problem goes very deep, and will manifest in the last days to a full blown ( Ironman says now coming God and Magog which is a war against Israel.

by Hans Jansen
Published June 2007 Post-Holocaust and Anti-Semitism

No. 57, 1 June 2007 / 15 Sivan 5767

The Historical Roots of the Anti-Israel Positions of Liberal Protestant Churches
An Interview with Hans Jansen

The verbal attacks and boycott calls by a variety of Western Protestant, mainly liberal, denominations, as well as the World Council of Churches, have raised new interest in the origins of Christian anti-Semitism and in particular its Protestant version.
Among the Protestants' founding fathers, Martin Luther was particularly anti-Semitic. His writings were precursors of twentieth-century National Socialist texts. Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels, and Julius Streicher gladly quoted from Luther's works, even if he never recommended the physical destruction of the Jews. Luther did, however, advise burning synagogues in honor of God and Christianity, confiscating Jewish books, and expelling Jews from Christian countries. In 1985 the World Federation of Lutheran Churches distanced itself from these statements of Luther.
Other sixteenth-century Protestant reformers such as John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, and Philipp Melanchton also considered Judaism archaic but were against drawing operational conclusions from this. Another reformer, Martin Butzer, took a more favorable position toward the Jews.
In the current anti-Israel positions of liberal Western churches nontheological influences are probably more important. Blaming Jews is for many of them a question of their own spiritual welfare and of avoiding a look in the mirror.
Churches have taught antipathy to Jews for two thousand years. It is mistaken to think this can be overturned in a few decades. The new expressions of Christian hatred toward Israel reflect deep psychological processes.

"For several decades there has been in many Jewish circles the impression that Christian anti-Semitism was declining and would fade away in the course of a generation or two. This perception stemmed mainly from the major post-Holocaust policy change by the Roman Catholic Church in its attitude toward the Jews.

"The last three years have seen attacks and boycott calls against Israel by several Western Protestant denominations and the World Council of Churches. These aggressions raise new interest in the origins of Christian anti-Semitism and in particular its Protestant version. This requires reexploring the positions toward the Jews of major sixteenth-century Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin."

Prof. Hans Jansen is the author of a major, frequently reprinted work in Dutch titled Christian Theology after Auschwitz.1 The subtitle of the first tome is The History of 2000 Years of Church Anti-Semitism. The second tome-in two volumes-is subtitled The Roots of Anti-Semitism in the New Testament.2 Jansen, a Dutch Protestant, taught history at the Flemish Free University in Brussels (1990-2000) and since 2002 teaches at the Simon Wiesenthal Institute in Brussels.

Luther's Anti-Semitic Writings
He explains: "Among the Protestants' founding fathers, Martin Luther was particularly anti-Semitic. The Protestant tradition had not paid much attention to these texts and their existence came as quite a shock to many believers. I was one of the first who published about Luther's anti-Semitic writings.

"In 1985 the World Federation of Lutherans distanced itself from Luther's anti-Semitic texts, claiming one had to understand them in the spirit of his time. They said Luther was disappointed that the Jews did not convert to Christianity, but this did not excuse his writing such anti-Semitic works."

Jansen observes: "No other important Catholic or Protestant theologian throughout the centuries who wrote major works of exegesis had as many horrible things to say about the Jews as Luther. His anti-Semitism is fully interwoven with his exegesis of the Hebrew Bible. I sometimes ask Protestant theologians, ‘What do you think, for instance, of his 1543 book From the Jews and Their Lies?'3 They often answer: ‘I really don't know it.' This is despite its being one of his important works."

Promoting Discriminatory Action
"Luther's thoughts were abused by the Nazis. However anti-Semitic he was, Luther never preached that the Jews should be destroyed. Julius Streicher based himself on Luther as his great master. Also Adolf Hitler and Joseph Goebbels gladly quoted from his works.

"Luther in his latter days was a rabid anti-Semite who promoted extreme discriminatory action against the Jews. Initially, in 1523, he had written a book that was relatively friendly to the Jews titled Jesus Was a Born Jew.4 Never before had a European theologian considered Jesus a Jew, which was major heresy. To give a book such a title was thus extraordinary.

"Luther wrote there that if the Christian mission among the Jews had failed for so many centuries, it was for obvious reasons. The Roman Catholic Church did not have much to offer. He claimed he was returning to the pure gospel of the New Testament and that the Catholic Church did not follow this.

"In his book he wrote:

I'll show from the Bible which reasons I have to believe that Christ was a Jew born from a virgin. Perhaps I shall thereby bring a number of Jews to the Christian religion. But our fools, popes, bishops, sophists, and monks have until this moment treated the Jews in such a way that to become a good Christian, one should have become a Jew.

Had I been a Jew and seen how such idiots and fools lead and teach the Christian tradition, I would have preferred to be a pig rather than a Christian. They have treated the Jews as if they were dogs and not people. They have not done anything for them other than curse them and expropriate their wealth. When the Jews whom they converted saw clearly that Judaism had such a strong basis in the Bible, whereas Catholic Christianity was pure nonsense not based on the Bible, how could they pacify their hearts and become truly good Christians?5
"Luther thus thought that once confronted with the authentic gospel, the Jews would accept it. He wrote this initial book with the intention that the Jews would convert to Christianity."

Comparable to Twentieth-Century Anti-Semitic Texts
"By 1638 Luther wrote a letter ‘Against the Sabbatists.'6 In it he strongly attacked Christians who had become Jews. He proclaimed to those Christians who believed in the role of the Messiah and the Sabbath, that Moses' law had already lost its validity fifteen centuries ago. He added that if Jews wished to practice Moses' law they should also establish a state in Palestine, which would never happen due to a divine promise.7

"By the time he wrote his anti-Semitic book about the lies of the Jews, Luther was disappointed that the Jews had not converted. He now expressed himself in the same way as twentieth-century National Socialist texts would do and spiced his book with many defamatory remarks.8

"He stated, for instance, that no people were as thirsty for money as Jews. If a Christian met a Jew in daily life, he should make the sign of the cross because a live devil was standing before one. Jews, Luther asserted, dominated Christians and had more power in Christian society than they had in the times of David and Solomon."

Burning Synagogues
"Luther wrote: ‘What should we Christians do with this cursed and rejected race of the Jews? They live among us and we know that they lie, slander, and curse. We cannot support them if we do not want to share in their lies, curses, and slander. We must, full of prayer and respectful religiosity, exercise a merciful severity.'

"He recommended:

Let me give you my honest advice. In the first place the synagogue should be burned and what doesn't burn must be covered with mud. This must be done in honor of God and Christianity so that God can see that we are Christians and we do not just have patience or approve that his Son and Christians will be publicly subjected to lies, curses, and slander.

In the second place, their houses must be broken down and destroyed. They must be housed in stalls like Gypsies so that they are aware that they are not masters in our country as they proudly declare, but poor prisoners as they incessantly complain before their God. Third, their books must be taken away. Fourth, their rabbis must be forbidden to give lessons on punishment of death. Fifth, they are not to be allowed to move freely. Let them stay at home. Sixth, they should not be allowed to take interest. The money one takes from them must be devoted to helping a Jew who is baptized. Seventh, they must be put to work very hard.
Jansen notes that Luther ends by saying: "Honorable rulers and noblemen who have Jews in your country: if this advice doesn't suit you try and find something better so that we all will be liberated from this unbearable, devilish burden, the Jews."9 Jansen adds: "The above passages are far from the worst Luther wrote about the Jews. He also accuses them of wanting to kill Christians, ritual murders, and poisoning wells.

"Another reformer, Justus Jonas, translated the book into Latin. One bookseller alone-in the sixteenth century-ordered as many as five thousand copies to fill orders from Italy and France."

The Lutherans: Distance and Silence
Jansen observes: "Luther was only a reformer in the sense that he split off from the Roman Catholic Church, didn't recognize the pope anymore, abandoned celibacy, and so forth. As far as the Jews are concerned he just copied the main medieval anti-Jewish writings. Luther adopted the idea that one should not leave the Jews in Christian society in peace, but put them in a ghetto. He also embraced the decisions of the Fourth Lateran Council, for instance, that the Jews had to wear specific clothing, such as a distinctive red or yellow sign, a hat, and so forth.

"From his theology it is clear that Luther was very anti-Semitic. Because the World Federation of Lutherans distanced itself from his words in 1985, one can no longer claim that Luther's theological anti-Semitism has much currency among Lutherans. On the other hand, if one is a Lutheran, the psychological influence of the denomination's founder is still there. Probably, besides Jesus, more works have been written about Luther than anybody else.

"His anti-Semitism remains largely a taboo subject for Lutherans. In my scholarly career I have observed how difficult it is for people who have much admiration for Luther to be confronted with his unpleasant side. (The same is true for those who admire Erasmus, who made rabid anti-Semitic remarks as well.)10

"Lutherans say something like ‘we shouldn't really discuss this.' People feel that it threatens their theological construct. In my opinion, this silence is dangerous. One gets a false picture of a person if one leaves aside such important developments in his life."

Jansen points to a contrast: "What is so extraordinary and fascinating in the Hebrew Bible is that the greatest people are portrayed in all their humanity, including their failings. It is a shortcoming of most national histories that they concentrate on extolling rulers, heroes, or generals without paying attention to their human aspects. Many Lutherans wrongly claim that as they have distanced themselves from the anti-Semitic texts, this chapter of history should be closed.

"I am thus particularly happy that in 2005 a Dutch Jewish scholar, René Süss, devoted his doctoral thesis at the University of the Reformed Church in Brussels to an analysis of Luther's anti-Semitic works."11

Calvin
"The theology of the other major church reformer, John Calvin, did not differ from Luther's anti-Jewishness. He considered that since the Christian church had come into existence, the Jewish people had become an anachronism, other than as potential Christians. Calvin propounds the ‘verus Israel' concept: the church is the new authentic Israel. No place is left for the Jewish religion.

"Calvin's rejection of Israel as a people went even further than more ancient theologians.12 He called the Jews ‘mad dogs,' ‘beasts,' and ‘animals.' Yet whereas Luther accuses the Jews of ritual murder, one does not find such demonization in Calvin's texts and his operational conclusions are radically different. He says it is totally against the gospels to persecute the Jews in any way.

"In Calvin's view, Christianity's heritage, both in this life and in the hereafter, is due to the greatest son the Jewish people ever produced. Christianity owes everything to Jesus of Nazareth and thus should be grateful to the Jews.

"Calvin's approach has had a major influence, for instance, on many Dutch Protestants. They always had a high opinion of Jews, saying they could not have been Christians if there had not been Jews. From this trend has come Christians for Israel International, who are great supporters of Israel. They invest in projects in Israel and help Russian Jews finance their emigration to it. Such activity has its origins in Calvin's teachings."

The Other Reformers
"Among the other Protestant reformers, Ulrich Zwingli also adhered to the official church theology on Judaism. He interpreted the Jews' dispersion all over the world as a divine punishment for Jesus' crucifixion. Zwingli did not, however, expect the Jews to convert, and believed that many ceremonies of the papacy and its military power derived from Jewish influences.

"Philipp Melanchthon's views were very close to Calvin's. He also considered the Jews and their practices as anachronisms.13 A very different position was taken by Martin Butzer. He was one of the first in Christian Europe to oppose the organized mission among Jews. Butzer thought Christians should set a good example to the Jews and should mainly give them help and love. He added that if Christians wanted Jews to convert to Christianity, they should first ‘convert' themselves."

Jansen remarks: "Substitution theology has been the greatest error in the history of the Christian churches. This was the belief that Christians had replaced the Jews in the covenant with God, entailing the false claim that Jesus was the founder of a new religion. This theology has largely been abandoned."

Accusations Based on Prejudices
"The ongoing confrontation with this past is important because if you try to repress a thought it comes back. In 1981, after a public discussion, a very smart philosopher came over to me and said that he had liked my book. Yet he added, ‘You have shown that the Jews over the ages have been blamed for almost everything. It seems that in the future they will also be subject to new accusations. If these have been so constant and massive, much of it must be true.'

"We agreed that we should have a lengthy discussion session. I said that having read my book in detail, he knew that Jews had been suspected of hundreds of things over the ages. I had not found a single verifiable charge. He admitted that God's murder could not be verified, nor could the charge of murdering children. We went through the accusations and he acknowledged that there was no proof that Jews were rapists, traitors, or conspirators.

"I concluded that all one could say was that Jews were human like anybody else. There were good and bad Christians, good and bad Dutchmen, good and bad Jews. All accusations against the Jews resulted from prejudices."

Jansen observes: "Elie Wiesel told me that he never talked with anti-Semites because all arguments only confirmed their prejudices. In his view the only solution was to educate people in school before they had been infected."

What Influence on the Present?
Jansen wonders to what extent the reformers' anti-Jewish theology and Luther's legacy influence the present anti-Israel attitudes of Protestant denominations. He thinks they play a role, but that other influences are more important.

"Simon Wiesenthal told me after the Lebanon War in 1982 that it was becoming fashionable to call Israel racist and fascist. He pointed out, already at that stage, that it gives Germans double pleasure to call Jews fascists. On the one hand, they can give National Socialism a less horrible face because apparently all people including the Jews tend to fascism and racism. On the other hand, they can portray the Jews as particularly wicked people who espouse fascism despite having undergone it themselves.

"For Germans and Austrians, the question as to whether the Israelis had committed war crimes was not one of rational judgment-as it would be regarding British, French, or Dutch troops-but rather a question of their own spiritual welfare.

"Only this can explain how, together with the rest of the European press, the German and Austrian media fell all over the Sabra and Shatila massacre. Here one could manipulate the facts. The Germans had massively killed defenseless civilians. The Jews supposedly had done the same when given the chance. I'd be surprised if a poll showed that as many as 10 percent of the European population know that in Sabra and Shatila the murderers were Christian Lebanese and not Israelis. In the Second Intifada, many Europeans wanted to view the Palestinians as ‘new Jews' and thereby finally forget the Shoah victims."

The Churches' Deafening Silence
"What shocks me is that throughout the Second Intifada, I haven't heard a prominent Christian leader or politician explicitly condemn the anti-Semitism in Arab countries. That can only be explained by the European desire for psychological liberation from the past.

"The best one could hear from the previous pope or the World Council of Churches were some general nonexplicit remarks. There is still much discussion of the silence of Pope Pius XII during the Holocaust. He did not come out openly against the persecution of the Jews.

"The same is true today regarding the Roman Catholic Church and Protestant churches. The World Council of Churches has not explicitly condemned the suicide bombings in Israel. There is a deafening silence, which is probably the main source on which the boycott attempts feed. It is an expression of anti-Semitism, which as always says much more about the anti-Semites than it will ever say about the Jews."

Daniel, I'll try to answer this the best way I know how.

The Prosperity Gospel, is taking promises from the Law of Moses, that with Obedience came blessings...earthly blessings.

OUR (The church) now both Jew and Gentile Paul calls One New Man are blessed with Christ in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus...the riches that are in Christ. Also read Colossians 3:1-4

The Promise Land given to Israel is an everlasting Covenant promise with specific geographical boundaries. Our( The Church) Promise Land is Jesus Christ Himself.

Scripture has many layers of Truth, one of spiritual application and of physical application.

In Scripture one must ask, Who was God talking to...what was He talking about, when and where does this apply and how did or how will it come to pass.

Paul was committed the Gospel according to the Mystery...this special time called the Church age. The church has a very special calling out, Paul said he prayed that WE would know the Hope of OUR Calling. So, the Hope of our calling is not earthly blessings, or earthly prosperity, as was given Israel under the Law.

The Church was not and is not an Earthly Theocracy, but we (at least I do) believe in the Individual Priesthood of the Believer, and we as individuals make up the Church....and Christ is the Church...a heavenly organism, a mystical union of becoming ONE with God in Christ Jesus.

When this moment of time is fulfilled, the Time of Jacob's trouble will begin, and the 70th week as seen in Daniel will come to pass….the 7 year tribulation.

Also note in Matthew 24 that Jesus is talking to Jews, not Gentiles. He said take heed you do not take your flight on the Sabbath. The Church is not under Sabbath Law. This is not 70AD as some have suggested. If that were so, then Jesus would be here on the Throne of David now, satan would be bound etc.

Interestingly, when one studies Daniel, and Shadrac, Meshach and Abednego are thrown into the furnace ...where is Daniel anyway? Some have suggested Daniel represents the Church who is taken out of the way at this time, as God finishes His work and Promises to Israel. ( It’s a great insight) He must before He comes to reign as King. We, will come with Christ to execute judgment on the earth. Jude says He is coming with ten thousands of ten thousands of His Saints. …not angels! We are His Saints.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS: Added for content
Oh and I have to add, If the church is to still be here under this time as some believe, then we are to be ****defenders of Israel***, not haters, because Jesus Christ the Deliver
(Romans 11) is coming to Deliver Israel and all Israel will be saved.

edit: Personally, I believe that all believers that ever lived are one in Christ, may they be Jew or Gentile, may it be Abraham or someone in the tribulation. There is only Christ.

Daniel, Of coarse there is only Christ, and He is the Only Savior...period.

I do believe though that the church is being prepared to reign and rule with Christ, that during the 1000 year reign, Israel saved during the tribulaton will become the Head and not the tail.

Isaiah 14 clarify's this time of Judgement.

When the whole world is a rest( Isaiah 14) that will be the 1000 Years. That has never happened to date, and won't until Jesus Christ reigns and rules here on earth, taking the Throne of David, ((((not the vatican)))).

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Katy-Did wrote:

The Rod is a Rod of [u][b]IRON[/b][/u]. Quite different then Psalms 23...Thy rod and staff they COMFORT me. Here in the 23 Psalms the Lord our Shephers LEADS us, He's not standing behind us beating us into submission. Take my yoke upon you for it is light.

It's so good to get back to the discussion of "the rod"!

I was the one who referred to Psalm 23 because that was specifically the Scripture the Lord gave while meditating on this question.

So I assumed that this was the way in to what He wanted to teach me personally from this topic. As it was different from what others had said so far, I shared it to enrich the discussion.

It's perhaps a pity that it has been diverted into a debate re Israel (yet again!) I learnt a while ago that discussing [i]that[/i] subject with those who are fixed in the opposite idea is almost useless, but it's difficult to stop!

The "rod" comforts the sheep because [u]it is the Shepherd's main weapon against the enemies of the flock[/u].

No way does He bludgeon the sheep with it, but protects them, as the staff is used to guide them. I did read that a shepherd might throw the rod with great accuracy, [i]just ahead of[/i] a straying sheep, to frighten it back from the danger it was straying into.

I am beginning to think that the "rod" does have some connection with the Cross, however obscure, though they aren't identical.

(The thought of Jesus dying for us also comforts, as I'm sure you will agree.)

Someone else mentioned that the nails that pierced Jesus would also have been of iron, so there could well be some link.

in Him

Jeannette

Hi again Linn

I think this will take two, or even three posts, as there are several issues here, and I think things may be clearer if we take one at a time:

Jewish Christians do not have a separate end from Gentile Christians, and I don't think anyone has suggested that they do.

I have been getting this impresson because IRONMAN continually separates the Jewish branches from gentile branches in the olive tree (Rom 11).

However, this [i]does[/i] seem to be the root of your confusion on what folk are saying, because you said he "separates the Jewish branches from gentile branches [b][i]in the olive tree[/i][/b] " (emphasis added).

As I keep saying in different ways, those who are "in the olive tree" are [b][i]of course[/i] [/b]one, including those who are "grafted in". The core difference (so I believe Scripture shows) lies not in those who are in Christ but those who are [i]outside[/i] of Him, of which there are (at present, unless one embraces full Preterism) [u][i]two distinct groups[/i][/u] - Jew and Gentile.

In eternal terms one group are as lost as the other, unless they repent, but they are still distinct from each other in other ways.

This mistaken understanding of where the disagreement lies, is confusing yourself and everyone else!

I read the thrust of Paul's argument in Romans 11 as saying that we who are not Jewish by natural birth should humbly remember what a privilege we have to "come under the wings of the God of Israel" (as Boaz said, in the book of Ruth). That we should not boast and think we are somehow superior, (like an adopted child crowing against his natural-born sibling).

I'm not accusing you of doing this, (or even if you are it is neither deliberate nor even conscious, so there is no blame). But, if we do not give Israel the place God gives her this is a bigger danger than it might otherwise be.

Which is one reason why this subject is important.
End of part 1 :-)

Love in Him

Jeannette

Hello Jeannette, in reading all scripture that refers to "[u][b]Rod of Iron [/b][/u]" nothing in the verses below have any reference to a Cross or the 23rd Psalms. So, the Rod is not really what I thought this discussion was, but "[u][b]Rod of Iron [/b][/u]".

I do agree with your analogy of the Rod and staff of the 23rd Psalms and too wanted to point out Christians are not ruled by a "[u][b]Rod of Iron [/b][/u]", but by the Loving Care ad daily attendance of our Lord and Savior.

Psalm 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a [u][b]Rod of Iron [/b][/u]; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27
And he shall rule them with a [u][b]Rod of Iron [/b][/u]; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

This Promise is to those who overcome. Now who is it we rule? Not anyone now. This is for later, and refers to the Nations, not to individuals.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a [u][b]Rod of Iron [/b][/u]:(KING) and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.(Redeemer) now coming back as KING

Revelation 19:15
[b]And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.[/b]

WOW!!! Sure isn't the 23rd Psalms here by any stretch of the imagination.

The [u][b]Rod of Iron [/b][/u]is a symbol of God's judgment and Wrath.

Jesus Christ took our judgment and wrath upon Himself, and we His Church, His body are not called to God's Wrath.

I wouldn't make too much out of the nails being made out of iron as though there were some secret something there. There is no scripture that even suggests such a thing, however scripture says, "by is stripes we are healed".

We don't identify with nails anyway, we identify with His Death and Resurrection Life.

I am beginning to think that the "rod" does have some connection with the Cross, however obscure, though they aren't identical.

Well, the only connection I can see is God's wrath coming on those who have rejected the Gospel, have taken the mark of the beast and having persecuted Israel of which are those who have taken the mark of the beast also rejecting the Gospel...sort of that 3 in one whammy!.............considering this is prophesied to be during the Great Tribulation period when all this occurs.

Satan has always hated God's chosen People. The Doctrine of Balaam spoken of many times by Paul, Peter, and Jude is exactly that...a doctring of God cursing Israel, of which Balaam was hired to do.....well guess what...he got off a whole lot better then those today. A rebuke from a Jack Ass is nothing compared to a [u][b]Rod of Iron [/b][/u]coming at you!!! Not an instrument of comfort. And who said the Shepherds rod of comfort was of Iron anyway....any scripture to support that? I can't find any.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Jeannette here is a link re: Balaam
http://www.learnthebible.org/L-064_balaams_call.htm

Interesting teh Apostles speak of those who have gone the way of Balaam as false teachers and false prophets in the church.

Katy

Katy says that the promise to Abraham of the land is not to the Church.

She mentioned that the woman with the twelve stars in Rev 12 is Israel - ref Joseph's dream.

It is certainly [i]possible[/i] to interpret the woman with the twelve stars as the Church, or Eve, or Mary (mostly by the RC church).

But I think it very unlikely to be any of these because the Church in Revelation is portrayed elsewhere as [i]the[/i] Bride, not as a mysterious woman with 12 stars. Twelve (though that isn't its only significance) is also the number of the twelve tribes. And this woman [i]gives birth to[/i] a child who is plainly the Lord Jesus. In other words He originates [i]from[/i] this mysterious "woman". As of course, Christ came, physically, from the nation of Israel

By contrast the Church originates [i]from[/i] Him (Isaiah 53, for example, “He shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied”, or Hebrews, quoting Isaiah – “I and the children God has given me”)!

So how can this other “woman” be the Church?

Yet I am sure that Wesley and others believed the woman is the Church.

To me, this does not conflict with Joseph's dream, or the Old Testament, which as it progresses, makes clear that the only 'Israel' which is going to [i]receive[/i] [u]the land[/u], are those who have put away their idolatry. (The rest are going to be destroyed.)

But neither is there any conflict with the belief that [i]present-day[/i] (unsaved) Israel is still in some way special to the Lord more than other (unsaved) Gentiles.

Not that He has "favourites" in the sense we would count favouritism, but because His dealings with those sinners who refuse to repent (whether Jew or Gentile) are not yet finished.

In my understanding, that means those Jews [i]are[/i] going to be partaking of [i]all[/i] God's promises - including that of the land - will do so through the New Covenant.

What land? may be a different discussion, but I believe that in the terms of God's promises, the only Israel which will remain, must be in the New Covenant, and I - as a maybe Gentile maybe Jew - will be as much a partaker of the promise of 'the land' as any other.

Love in Him

Jeannette

End of part 2 :-)

I believe that the Church should moves Jews to jealousy of such a great salvation, and that will partly happen during the tribulation

Well said!!!! However being moved to Jealousy is not through any wrath, or forced salvation, as did the Catholic Church try to do during the Inquisition. How many were murdered or made a pretense just to excape the wrath of the Pope and the imposter church to begin with.

Even John Wycliff, 200-300 years before the Reformers was cursed by the Catholic Church , they the RCC having dug up his bones and burned them in their hatred toward those who didn't come under Catholic Rule...so not just Jews were at stake here.

Also, hatred never won anyone heart to the Lord.

I guess that is my whole point here as well.

Beware of the Dominionists who want to rule your heart and mind no matter what generation you may live in...and beware of those who curse Israel, no matter what generation one may have lived in.

You see, the RCC had that same mentality of ruling teh nations with a rod of Iron especially during the Crusades. ...and then some!

History has a way of repeating itself...Beware! And History had proven we all have short term memories. Well, not all do!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Dorcus said:

Of course, I have been reared on 'the land' being spiritual - or, on the new earth - but there is no denying Exodus 19:5.

Believe me, Sister, I've been there too, many times - especially in the last few years. You may have read what I shared, probably on a couple of threads, how a friend said I still had my "Presbyterian corset", "in the back of the wardrobe". I was no longer a Presbyterian, but had to admit that she was right, that those rigid attitudes and suffocating influences had not entirely been cleared out. So I had to make a deliberate act of letting go those things of the past (even the good things, even the Godly things, even the Godly teachers who helped me so much in our growth in Christ - and press on “that I may win Christ” - as Paul says in Philippians 3).

It isn't easy to let go strongly held viewpoints, doctrines, attitudes of mind etc that have been ingrained for many years. Often it never occurs to us to question them until someone challenges our beliefs.

For this reason, among others, I struggled for a long time to understand your views on Israel, or be [i]able[/i], at first, to consider whether there were any solid Scriptural grounds for them. My present conclusion is that there are - yet there aren't. (not sure myself what I mean by that, but don't know how else to put it :lol:)

You seem unable to even consider the idea that the Land could be physical [i]as well as[/i] spiritual. Instead you think that some of us are denying the spiritual aspect.

Nothing anyone says seems able to shift that idea!

My mind is totally boggled by what has been a regular feature in a number of discussions, that the Church does not include Israel, or, that Israel is a part of the Church which has separate identity from the rest. I don't get it. It makes no sense to me at all. I freely admit this. And, I don't find it in the New Testament - which is even more bothersome.

You may still disagree, but at least you will understand where others are coming from! And you will have heard it directly from the Lord, rather than from man, which is far more important, as you know.

As I said, you are very intelligent, so there must be some other reason why you don’t understand...

I'm not advising something that I haven't also had to do, and still have to do. You remember how I struggled with wrong motives in our first (mostly private) debate on the subject?

It can be very challenging - even painful - because it does far more than confirm, or otherwise, the truth about any particular doctrine; it reveals the thoughts of our hearts rather than the thoughts of our minds.

But it also heals and sets us free - as I have found. A few months ago I couldn’t possibly have had the courage to talk to you like this...

in Him

Jeannette

daniel- wrote:
Hello,

may I gently suggest that you are misunderstanding each other in some points?
!
Daniel

Katy, please try to cool it!

Even if there [i]is[/i] an element of anti-SemitismI don't think it is deliberate or even conscious, so please don't react as if it is, or put the same label on Linn's beliefs as on other more obviously anti-Semitic teachings! That just causes enmity and further misunderstanding.

I appreciate that, because you are Jewish, you are naturally more sensitive than most of us to this aspect, but Linn has, I understand, a special love for the Jewish people, even though she has what seems to some of us (including myself) a [*edit, wrong choice of words!] mistaken way of expressing it doctrinally!

Love in Him

Jeannette

I'm playing catch up here, and I know I've answered these points previously with a different vocabulary, but I want to restate my understanding, hopefully, more clearly.

IRONMAN, going back to your second post where you quote Rom 11 (p7)

Paul here says that even with the grafting in of wild branches after natural ones are cut off, God knows which ones are wild and which are natural such that if the wild boast against the natural, they too can be cut off. seems to me like there is a distinction in the tree.

there seems to be a movement in which Israel is marginalized

To me, this initial bulge of Gentiles (about whom there had been so many prophecies previously), during the generation which had (apart from some), rejected the Messiah, is 'the fulness of the Gentiles' beginning. Just as in Acts there continued to be unbelieving Jews, so there have been unbelieving Gentiles in every generation and we find ourselves being forced back on Jesus' own words, that 'my sheep hear my voice' - and we resign ourselves at Paul's exhortation, to lose any supremacy of natural identity 'that no flesh may glory' - including social status by birth, education, philosophy (and so on). In fact, Paul says God determined that by worldly wisdom, it would be impossible to know Him (1 Cor 1).

Of course, books have been written about this, and also, Jews - not matter how many there are - are still only a small part of the human race. Disciples of Jesus are commissioned to make disciples of all men, with utter impartiality.

i will however be interested to see how we as Christians deal with ISrael coming to Salvation!

;-)

Maybe if we can first understand what the Church is...One New Man..neither Jew of Gentile, but a New Creature.

The Church is NOT the Israel of God...and we do not (including me who is a Jew), become a Jew when we get saved. We, the Mystery NOW, is we are a New Creature...one New Man in Christ.

Therefore, the promises to Physical Israel( Those saved after the rapture of the church).who are Jews by nature, and not Gentiles, will inherit the Land promised to them through the Covenant made to Israel/Abraham. This was specificaly mapped out in Genesis. Do you live there NOW? NO!

This was the problem with Calvinists/Puritans..they thought everywhere they stepped foot on was God's New promised land and that they were God's New chosen People including America...how wrong is that??!!

If Romans has an order of events and listed in an order, then there is an order...."UNTIL" the "UNTIL" is in it's fulness, you will not see any great National salvation of Israel. no matter how jealous you may try to make them, it wil not happen.

Paul provoked to Jealousy that brought persecution to his life. He didn't do teh persecuting...remember! Are you willing to lay down your life even unto death to witness, not only to a Jew but to anyone? I hear many here don't even believe it's necessary to begin with...(predestined remember...don't break a sweat kinda mentality)!

We need to preach the Gospel regardless of who is who....and be willing as Paul and the Apostles were to do it even unto death. Now that is pure perfect Love.....

Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners, and the heart of a true Born Again Christian is to have this same mind in you..to give your life, not take someone elses, or force salvation on someone.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Katy said:
The Church is NOT the Israel of God...and we do not (including me who is a Jew), become a Jew when we get saved. We, the Mystery NOW, is we are a New Creature...one New Man in Christ.

I agree 100% with the facts of what you are saying (if I'm understanding you right).

But I had the impression that by the "Israel of God" Paul [i]did[/i] actually mean the Church. That is: true believing Jews plus believing Gentiles, incorporated into the "true Israel" under the promise to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through his Seed, one in Him.

Even in the Old Testament this happened on a (presumably) smaller scale - Rahab, and Ruth are in Christ's geneology, and I read somewhere that Caleb (the one who "followed the Lord fully") was actually not Jewish by birth but became incorporated into Israel, (as did Ruth and Rahab), by his faithfulness to the true God.

By contrast, some who were actually Jews by natural birth were spoken of by the Lord as though they were not, because of their unbelief (John 8:38ff and Revelation 2:9 and 3:9).

This is just a matter of terminology really, so please don't jump on me again as you just did in a pm. (Please read my reply; you misunderstood, but shot me down in flames anyway.) :lol:

Love in Him

Jeannette

Thanks for your reply IRONMAN. I realise there is something else in the general theology of everyone who has posted in this thread, which I believe is a misinterpretation of Paul's meaning, over so shall 'all Israel be saved'.

Before you all fume at the ears, there is matter of logic to apply to that statement, in that there has been a majority of unbelievers-in-Christ both Jew and Gentile all the way since Pentecost. Clearly, 'all' does not mean [i]all Israelites and Jews[/i].

I think we can all agree on that at least, while not agreeing on what Paul [i]did[/i] mean by 'all Israel'.

daniel-,

Apart from my comment in the preceding paragraph, that article was excellent and covers a whole lot of ground which I have noted from scripture - for instance that we do not lose our national identity. Also, 'all the earth is mine' from Exo 19:5 accords with my sense that there will only be believers in that earth-wide kingdom of His unhindered reign.

In another thread which I started a long time ago, I wish to share more of my thoughts on the 'Israel' \\ 'Gentile' divide.

I will share more of my thoughts (I hope) on 'all Israel shall be saved' in a thread called Zechariah.

I'll come back and add links here when I've found them.

Dear Katy,

I think you are mixing spiritual Israel with natural Israel, in your comment about people not becoming Jews when they are saved. In the same way as I don't think of you as not being Jewish any more because you're a Christian (as I believe some churches try to teach :-?) I don't believe I became Jewish by believing either.

To give further context to my thoughts, when God first chose Abram, with the intention of calling [u]a people[/u] by His name, He was continuing His [i][b]spiritual[/i][/b] relationship with man, despite man's sin.

Under the Old Covenant, man could never be free from sin. It was covered. But under the New Covenant, man can be free from sin. In my next post I will quote something philologos wrote which I'd intended to mention to you earlier, but since some of your other thoughts on the rod of iron (which have been great surprise to me) it may help you to see the connection I am making between the cross and 'a rod of iron'.

However, to continue, God still intends a spiritual relationship with man, and His relationship with Israel - for instance when referring to her as His wife - was entirely spiritual. I think you can see that?

Now, to change the subject back to a question you asked me earlier:

Are you advocating this same kind of Dominion Theology?

I would be glad of a short explanation.

Also, I would like to lay to rest forever, any thought you have that I am against Jews. What I am against, particularly in the Church, is Jews who think they have a higher place in God's body, because they are Jewish. I feel the same way about white people thinking they have a higher place in the Church because they are white, or regarding any other division that can be made - by denominational worship style, by personal wealth, by worldy status - and so on.

Is it possible for you to accept this? And when you read something I've written that makes you think any of the above is what I [i]mean[/i], to hesitate for a split-second and ask yourself if that is really what I've [u]said[/u], or, you have added to my words with a shade of personal opinion?

I ended my comment in reply to your question about Dominion Theology with this, which I hope makes more sense in the light of subsequent posts.

I am offended. Yes. Offended. To be identified with those who do think God is finished with Israel. That is not scriptural Christianity.

Lastly, regarding your thesis that the promise of the land to Abraham will not be fulfilled to the Church, I see this as being in direct variance with the thesis in Hebrews, in which we clearly see that the only Covenant which bears weight with God, is the New Covenant. And Paul ably explains in Galatians how 'the blessing of Abraham' is the promise of the Spirit to the Gentiles [u]by faith[/u] (3:14). As the Gentiles could not receive this blessing ahead of Israel (chronologically), it follows that 'the blessing of Abraham' to his physical descendants is also fulfilled only to those who continue the spiritual relationship Abraham had with God - through the New Covanant [u]by faith[/u].

no argument from me there

Okay Katy, here is the exerpt I wanted to share with you. I thought I had posted it already in this thread, but I don't recall you answering it in any way. I don't want to put words into your mouth... but, there has been much discussion on SI about the meaning of the death of Jesus Christ. Some of the threads which Jesse (Lazarus) has started have particularly focused on what God was accomplishing. They have been discussing the reasonings presented by various theologians. In all these discussions, philologos returns to the written word every time, and when man strays away from God's reasoning, he returns us to the place in scripture where God's mind is clearly expressed.

As this is not a topic that you and I have discussed before and it may be one you have never considered in the light thrown here by the way philologos expounds it, please just listen, in the first instance, because it is totally based in scripture. I really hope it sits well with your spirit also. I don't attempt to put this in my own words (You may recognise I had this as my sig for a while.) because this statement cannot be made simpler or more complete. We could take it apart to discuss, but we could not make it more succinct.

I wanted to quote it because you have mentioned wrath. You also have alluded to your idea that I may mean by 'rod of iron' that people should be forced to accept Christ; but I have never had this in my mind. However, I [u]do[/u] believe that for those who choose [i]not[/i] to accept Him, [i]there will be a judgement[/i] which they could have avoided through faith and repentance toward God (Acts 17:31).

I've put some scripture afterwards for those who are unfamiliar with it.

[color=009999]But there is a darker picture in John 3:14-16 where Christ used the figure of an uplifted snake. Baptism has the effect of united the baptized into the element into which he is baptized.

“For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,”
(Rom 6:5 NKJV)

This 'uniting with' in the consequence of the 'baptism into death' of verse 3.

He was baptized into what we had become. He was united with it so that the judgement that came upon Him came upon it. Once and for all. He was baptized into 'our death' and we must be baptized into His. He was united by baptism to what we were and we are united by baptism (not water) to what he is.

He became Sin and the judgement that was wreaked upon Him was wreaked upon Sin. Not 'sins'; they had to be forgiven but Sin cannot be forgiven it must be executed.[/color]

2 Cor 5:21
For he hath made him [i]to be[/i] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Romans 5
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 6
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 1
'... ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

To Jeannette,

I wanted to reply to this comment you made.

But neither is there any conflict with the belief that present-day (unsaved) Israel is still in some way special to the Lord more than other (unsaved) Gentiles.

Saying that God is [i][b]still[/i][/b] favouring Israel above Gentiles, when the law was nailed to His cross 2000 years ago, I believe does not cconform to His expressly revealed mind as we find it reinterpreted to us by Paul.

Continually in the Old Testament, He says to Israel that He is blessing her not because of anything she has done but for the fathers' sakes.

Now, He has taken the blocks off Gentiles being in relationship directly with Him by faith (as Israel was through the law) and faith has become the only way [u]even for Israel[/u] to [i][b]know[/b][/i] Him [i][b]because[/i][/b] 'the law' has been removed for ever.

This is just a matter of terminology really, so please don't jump on me again as you just did in a pm. (Please read my reply; you misunderstood, but shot me down in flames anyway.

Please read my reply back. It is in reference to a private comment you first made to me concerning those who have a strange understanding of Israel. My comment to you was in reference to that and nothing more. I will be most happy to post that comment here if you like, but out of friendship I will not....rather take my licks unjustified and turn the other cheek.

But I had the impression that by the "Israel of God" Paul did actually mean the Church.

Paul said *AND* the Israel of God. If He were referring to the Church he would say, which is the Israel of God. The Church is called in Ephesians ONE NEW MAN, no longer Jew or Gentile. Not is the Church called a Remnant of anything. A remnant is something left over from the original piece. There are no left over Born Again Christians …we are wholly something New.

Dorcas,

Those who do not understand Romans 11 Paul reminds not Jews but Gentiles not to be high minded but fear. To suggest it the other way around is not found anywhere in scripture except Paul scolding Peter about being a hypocrite when around other Jews….only because Peter was afraid of what other Jews would think of him. To suggest that a Born Again Jew think of themselves more highly then anyone is not even discussed here….but rather what I feel being discussed here is a misunderstanding of Romans 11 that lead to Gentile High mindedness and pride and arrogance over Jews not yet saved, or God’s future plan for Israel.

I know Jeannette wants to get back to trying to make the Rod of Iron the Cross, so I will excuse myself from the conversation. The Rod of Iron is NOT about the Cross so I can’t add anything that would please you in this area.

Love in Christ
Good Night
Katy-Did

Hi Katy,

Those who do not understand Romans 11 Paul reminds not Jews but Gentiles not to be high minded but fear. To suggest it the other way around is not found anywhere in scripture except Paul scolding Peter about being a hypocrite when around other Jews….only because Peter was afraid of what other Jews would think of him. To suggest that a Born Again Jew think of themselves more highly then anyone is not even discussed here….. EDIT

But, Paul speaks repeatedly of Jewish pride in his letters. I won't take time to post any of it here, but I am glad you think this is also uncalled for amongst Christians. I could not agree more if you do. However, there are definitely Jewish believers who think that being Jewish makes them different and I'm not sure how easy that is for you to discern. I think this is the very hardest part of being a Jewish Christian, because it messes with one's head, and if ever the cross is sweet, it is in laying to rest these distinctions.

EDIT

but rather what I feel being discussed here is a misunderstanding of Romans 11 that lead to Gentile High mindedness and pride and arrogance over Jews not yet saved, or God’s future plan for Israel

I think I've covered some of my thoughts on this in my last post to Jeannette, that since the law was removed, Jews come into the New Covenant with God on exactly the same basis as Gentiles, despite having been 'first' when the New Covenant was first made with them.

Please do feel free to come back in if you find more to contribute. I appreciate your time and energy and able mind.

Hello again Katy,

I know I've been very unforthcoming about the thesis in my thread title, but I don't want you to think I'm set on [i]proving[/i] something incompatible with scripture. I wanted to explore the thought with others who might feel some agreement that there [u]is[/u] - not may be - an unprecedented level of control over the life of every person who has lived since then, by the cross of Christ (both Jews and 'the nations').

Here are a few verses in support of my belief about the promise of the land being tied up with the keeping of the first commandment.

Ezekiel 11:17
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 20:38
And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress [u]against me[/u]: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and [u]they shall not enter into the land of Israel[/u]: and ye shall know that I [i]am[/i] the LORD.

Ezekiel 20:40
For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall [u]all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me[/u]: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.

Ezekiel 20:42
And ye shall know that I [i]am[/i] the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country [i]for[/i] the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.

Ezekiel 28:25
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
When I shall have [u]gathered the house of Israel[/u] from the people among whom they are scattered, [u]and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen[/u], [b]then shall they dwell in their land[/b] that I have given to my servant Jacob.

Ezekiel 39
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, [u]and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations[/u];
28 Then shall they know that I [i]am[/i] the LORD their God, [u]which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen[/u]: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

But, Paul speaks repeatedly of Jewish pride in his letters. I won't take time to post any of it here, but I am glad you think this is also uncalled for amongst Christians.

Good Morning Dorcas,

Maybe we can back track here for a moment.

The only Jewish pride I see Paul talking about are Jews 1. who as Paul was before conversion, persecuting the Church, who at that time composed of mainly Jews to begin with. They felt these New Converts were going against the Law of Moses and therefore needed to be executed, just as those who said Crucify Him, Crucify Him, thought our of National Pride, they were doing the correct thing. Now come the New Convert who not able to let go of their Jewish *traditions* wanted to keep many of the ceremonial laws as well as not completely letting go of the Law of Moses,,,re; eating meat sacrificed to Idols etc. This was why Paul openly rebuked Peter in Galatia for playing the hypocrite among the Gentiles when the still legalistic Jews were there.

Then there was the case of Titas a him being circumcised just to keep peace and get on with it. Other then this, there are no warnings or references to Jewish pride Paul warns about.

However, When Paul was in Galatia he writes at the end of Galatians 6, AND upon the Israel of God.

Because these Jews, Newly converted, most likely were confusing the future Promises to Israel with the Church, Paul clarifies the AND the Israel of God , that is the fulfillment of Romans 11. He is clearly saying here, the Church, the New Creature is not the New Israel, most probably what many newly converted Jews may have thought as they were somewhat causing some havoc there to begin with.

Keeping this in mind, Gentiles must understand too that they are not the Israel of God. In believing this there has been much havoc in the Church today that is leading to what Paul calls “ High-mindedness of Gentiles” believing that that they are now God’s New Chosen people.

I also pointed out that the Puritan Calvinists are one of these groups who thought that anywhere they stepped foot was God’s New Promised Land and that they were God’s New Chosen People stating they believe the Promises to Israel belong to the Church and have spiritualized away the Promised land to any land now taking dominion of the world.

When we have a faulty understanding of Romans 9-11 and especially 11, that we are the Israel of God, robbing Israel of their future, we are advocating Gentile arrogance within the professing church.

As a New creation in Christ a Heavenly organism, a mystical body, we the Church have our life in Jesus Christ alone. This is what Paul is trying to tell the Galatians.

The Covenants I posted ( 4 I believe) unconditional…are to Israel, not the church, and the New Covenant did not replace those Covenants. The New Covenant replaced the Mosaic Covenant. The Law vs Grace.

Even the Covenant made to Noah that God would not destroy the earth again with a flood still stands. However the earth will be in the end destroyed by fire.

One other thing….the Rod.. Please look at Exodus 4 where Moses uses the rod and an instrument of Judgment against Egypt in turning the water into blood.

It’s dangerous to spiritualize away the Rod of Iron in making it a Cross. It is clearly an instrument of Judgment and wrath coming. Also you willsee many parallels in Revelation to the time of Moses and the judgement on those in Egypt.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hello Katy,

I would like to pick up on your last paragraphs, to show you where we may have some agreement:

'One other thing….[u]the Rod[/u].. Please look at Exodus 4 where Moses uses the rod and an [u]instrument of Judgment[/u] against Egypt in turning the water into blood.

It’s dangerous to spiritualize away the Rod of Iron in making it a Cross. It is clearly an instrument of Judgment and wrath coming. Also you willsee many parallels in Revelation to the time of Moses and the judgement on those in Egypt.'

One way to look at the rod as it was used in the Old Testament, is as a symbol of power - as something which defines its owner as powerful, and also aids him in the exercise of power. In this way, it could be like a sceptre - which we would usually imagine to be golden and perhaps, jewelled. A wooden rod cannot impose the same impression of grandeur, but as you mention, it was an instrument of judgement in Egypt.

This reminds me of the judging of the serpent (sin), by raising a bronze (apparently dead) serpent on a pole in the wilderness, in which figure Jesus said He would draw all men unto Him. This is a claim of great power for that pole which substantially fulfilled the role of His cross. In the UK it is symbol of healing miniaturised into badges worn by doctors, and on our medical journal. In this way, the 'rod' also represents judgement (the death of) disease (the serpent) and life, simultaneously.

Paul said in Romans 6:6
knowing this, that [u]our old man was crucified with [i]Him,[/i][/u] [b]that the body of sin might be done away with[/b], that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Can you see, with Romans 6:6 in mind, why philologos wrote of [b]judgement[/b] in association with what was happening to Jesus on the cross?

[i]He was baptized into what we had become. He was united with it so that the [b]judgement[/b] that came upon Him came upon it. Once and for all. He was baptized into 'our death' and we must be baptized into His. He was united by baptism to what we were and we are united by baptism (not water) to what he is.

He became Sin and the judgement that was wreaked upon Him was wreaked upon Sin. Not 'sins'; they had to be forgiven but Sin cannot be forgiven it must be executed.[/i]

Mark 10
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? [u]and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with[/u]?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

If you can see the associations above, then we can talk more about the importance and influence of the cross, and why iron might have any significance. We may decide it doesn't! I have heard that a Roman cross was just a pole. I'm not sure how to check that out.

Yes, Dorcas, I do see where we have a different understanding of Salvation.

Paul teaches in Romans 5-8 that Jesus Christ is the deliverer , the one who sets us free from the power of sin. We are Justified by His Blood and saved by his life.

Am I understanding you think salvation is a process that only comes to true salvation at the completion of your being beaten with a rod until you are purely holy etc.

2 Peter 1 says we are partakers of God’s Holiness by Faith in His Promises. I have placed my faith in Jesus Christ, I have Identified with him in Death and resurrection life, I am now Born again, and the Spirit of the Life of Christ has set me free from the Law of Sin and death. This is not a process, but an event. However I will grow in the Grace and the Knowledge of Jesus Christ, fellowship in the fellowship of His sufferings that is conforming me to the image of Jesus Christ, and being changed from Glory to Glory even by the spirit of the Lord.

Paul said, Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of **THIS DEATH*** I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord.....there is now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ who walk not after the Flesh but the Spirit.

What a wonderful day one finds this truth and is now being perfected in the Love of God.

I could go on and on….Romans 5 WE GLORY in tribulation because we have this HOPE within us ……..

You see Dorcas, we, those Born Again are children of promise...the promise of the Spirit, no longer in bondage as Paul was telling the Galatians...in his allegory....tells the Corinthians again in 2 Corinthians 3 and the author of Hebrews in Chapter 12.

Hebrews 12 says God has scored every son who has come to him that we be a partaker of His Holiness. That is all together different then this rod you are referring to.

You on this thread started out the ROD of IRON….now you want to change it to His Rod and staff??????

My old man is dead to sin. You say sin must be eradicated….that is wrong. And I don’t believe this holiness teaching, however I do believe when we walk in the New Man we are not living in the old adam sin nature. My old man was once and for all crucified with Christ, and judicially that’s How God sees me. Washed in the Blood, forgiven!!!! A New Covenant promise.

But Dorcas, what does this have to do with covenants about land and those verses about the promises given to Israel have to do with our sanctification? Do you believe if you are purified with a rod that you will inherit some land?

Maybe I’ve had one too many cups of coffee, but you seem to be suggesting some sort of conditional salvation arrangement? Are you? Do you believe salvation is conditional upon more than faith? You must re-read Galatians! Nothing about inheriting Israel’s promises of land there.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Dorcas, this is how it works:

Jesus said He would baptized us with fire. It’s the firey trials in your life that purify and perfect. The fire burns away the chaff ( the outer part of the seed) (( our old sin nature))
so the seed (( His word will bring forth fruit))

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
James 1
2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into various trials;
3Knowing this, that the trying/testing of your faith worketh patience.

4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

12Blessed is the man that endureth trials: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

See what we receive...a crown, not land!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

dorcas wrote:
To Jeannette,

I wanted to reply to this comment you made.

But neither is there any conflict with the belief that present-day (unsaved) Israel is still in some way special to the Lord more than other (unsaved) Gentiles.

As you know I have a problem with this, for since Jesus died to bring all mankind into one fold under one Shepherd, the way is free and open to all who will believe in Him.

Saying that God is [i][b]still[/i][/b] favouring Israel above Gentiles, when the law was nailed to His cross 2000 years ago, I believe does not cconform to His expressly revealed mind as we find it reinterpreted to us by Paul.

Continually in the Old Testament, He says to Israel that He is blessing her not because of anything she has done but for the fathers' sakes.

Now, He has taken the blocks off Gentiles being in relationship directly with Him by faith (as Israel was through the law) and faith has become the only way [u]even for Israel[/u] to [i][b]know[/b][/i] Him [i][b]because[/i][/b] 'the law' has been removed for ever.

You still seem to be confusing the spiritual with the temporal.

For example

...Saying that God is [i][b]still[/i][/b] favouring Israel above Gentiles, when the law was nailed to His cross 2000 years ago, I believe does not conform to His expressly revealed mind as we find it reinterpreted to us by Paul.

As you say, "the law was nailed to His cross 2000 years ago", but that fact makes no difference to the present significance of Israel. It isn't related to the Law given through Moses but to God's promise to Abraham, who of course came before Moses.

As Paul says, "They are beloved for the fathers' sakes", meaning Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not Moses!

love

Jeannette

Jeannette, AMEN, I would like to add this as well to your last statement:

Romans 4: 13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Back to what I was saying before:

But this is God work and purpose in the life of his Church:

Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should [b] bring forth fruit[/b] unto God.
Colossians 1:5-7
5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and [b] bringeth forth fruit[/b], as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Galatains 5:
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[b] 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [/b]
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Dear Katy,

I don't have time to answer your two posts yet, but I want to say two things.

First, you have brought your idea of what 'a rod of iron' might mean, to every interpretation you have attributed to me. Please think about this.

I will answer your questions later.

Secondly, it is you who have introduced the concept of Israel inheriting the land, but not the Church, which you do because you have been taught that the Church is not the Israel that God intended to inherit the land.

But what if, [i]all along[/i] God intended the Church to inherit the land?

Where does this leave those who cling to Israel, because they believe God promised them the land [i][b]outside of Christ[/i][/b]?

Answer: definitely not saved.

Could this be a ploy of anti-Christ minds, to cause division among God's chosen people, so that at least some of them are never saved?

You quoted Romans 4:13, as if it supports your thesis, but what if Paul is saying that the land promised to Abraham is only inherited by those who believe?

That would be entirely consistent with what God said to Moses in Exodus 19:5, (quoted by me in an earlier post). The [u]whole earth[/u] is His to give those who keep His latest covenant with Him, and that makes a lot more sense than trying to squash everyone who has believed - billions of people - into the land defined to Abraham.

If I have misunderstood you, and there is some other salvation than Christ, which you believe is open to 'Israel', by which 'Israel' can be saved, [u]and[/u] inherit the land, then I do apologise. I understand Israel is important - vital to the fulfilment of scripture - what I don't understand is why anyone who recognises Christ and the eternal kingdom, would hold a place for Israel on earth, which [u]does not[/u] offer eternal salvation to other Israelites and Jews.

So far, neither you nor Jeannette make any sense to me on this one.

Hello Katy,

Dorcas, I do see where we have a different understanding of Salvation

I have twice posted the statement by philologos about Jesus bearing God's judgement and you have not commented. Then you remind me our old man was crucified with Him - which is the very point philologos is making - that God's judgement for sin was borne by Jesus in our place.

In that light, how can you return to talking of the cross as if it is not a place of judgement? I mean the question seriously.

Am I understanding you think salvation is a process that only comes to true salvation at the completion of your being beaten with a rod until you are purely holy etc.

You on this thread started out the ROD of IRON….now you want to change it to His Rod and staff??????

The rod therefore, may be in a different figure, the rod of iron.

You say sin must be eradicated….that is wrong.

And why (if I said something similar) is that 'wrong'?

And I don’t believe this holiness teaching

She has implied I believe things she doesn't believe which fall under the 'holiness teaching' banner, but I don't quite know myself what about 'holiness teaching' Jeannette has rejected, or even, how 'holiness teaching' is defined! Or how it differs from other teachings which may be more scripturally correct.

I do believe when we walk in the New Man we are not living in the old adam sin nature. My old man was once and for all crucified with Christ, and judicially that’s How God sees me. Washed in the Blood, forgiven

But Dorcas, what does this have to do with covenants about land and those verses about the promises given to Israel have to do with our sanctification? Do you believe if you are purified with a rod that you will inherit some land?

The questions in my previous post are my real questions about your doctrine, the repetition of which does not explain it to me any further, nor does it make it answer scripture.

I don't know if you've realised that I don't have a problem with Israel receiving land, but, in the light of many OT scriptures, where their reception of that land is associated with a relationship with God in which He is their God, I cannot (not will not) understand why you would want to separate the New Covenant from the land.

I don't know where that thought ever came from, except from those who reject Christ, who want to lay claim to the land through Abraham.

But why would Paul, a Jew himself, devote such a long letter as Romans to explaining how it is that Gentiles are included in receiving the promises to Abraham and that all those who are [i]not[/i] of [u]faith[/u], regardless of their natural status through circumcision, [i]will not inherit any of the promises (to Abraham)?[/i]

'He is a Jew who is one inwardly'. That's the qualification.

you seem to be suggesting some sort of conditional salvation arrangement? Are you? Do you believe salvation is conditional upon more than faith?

;-)

Katy said

we receive...a crown, not land!

On p11 Jeannette said

But I had the impression that by the "Israel of God" Paul did actually mean the Church. That is: true believing Jews plus believing Gentiles, incorporated into the "true Israel" under the promise to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through his Seed, one in Him.
...

By contrast, some who were actually Jews by natural birth were spoken of by the Lord as though they were not, because of their unbelief (John 8:38ff and Revelation 2:9 and 3:9).

Paul said *AND* the Israel of God. If He were referring to the Church he would say, which is the Israel of God

I've heard this interpretation for the first time only since I came on SI, and you are only the second person to offer it. So I've looked up my Tyndale's New Testament, because he's very sensitive to the possibility of misunderstandings, and often chooses to phrase his translation so the meaning is completely impossible to miss.

I'm going to quote him for you, from far enough back to get the context. You will remember that Paul is particularly exhorting the Galatians back to faith, after they were tending to revert to law-keeping. At the end of the letter he covers circumcision one last time, beginning in v 12:

[i]As many as desire with outward appearance to please carnally, they constrain you to be circumcised, only because they would not suffer persecution with the cross of Christ, [b]for they themselves which are circumcised, keep not the law[/b]: but desire to have you circumcised, that they might rejoice in your flesh.

God forbid that I should rejoice, but in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, whereby the world is crucified as touching me, and I as concerning the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything at all, nor uncircumcision: but a new creature*. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon Israel that pertaineth to God. From henceforth, let ... [/i]

* Nothing helpeth save to be a new creature.

In the above passage, Paul is comparing those who are circumcised in the flesh - who don't even keep the law - with those who are a new creature in Christ (inwardly circumcised).

I believe that the simple English analysis of the thought he is conveying, necessitates associating 'the Israel of God' with those who are circumcised in heart, and not those who are trying to impose physical circumcision on Gentile believers.

There is a similar argument in at least three other places in the New Testament. Probably we should move this part of the discussion to an older thread which I started to look at what it is to be a Jew inwardly. The converse is to look at what it is [i]not[/i] to be a Jew inwardly - which would, similarly, include outward circumcision as well as unbelief.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8064&forum=36]Who is 'a Jew inwardly'?[/url]

Katy, this is interesting. Honestly I hadn't looked up this translation before I posted the thread and chose the verses to start it off.

Psalm 2 Young's Literal Translation

1 Why have nations tumultuously assembled?

And do peoples meditate vanity?

2 Station themselves do kings of the earth,

And princes have been united together,

Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah:

3 `Let us draw off Their cords,

And cast from us Their thick bands.'

4 He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh,

The Lord doth mock at them.

5 Then doth He speak unto them in His anger,

And in His wrath He doth trouble them:

6 `And I--I have anointed My King,

Upon Zion--My holy hill.'

7 I declare concerning a statute:

Jehovah said unto me, `My Son Thou [i]art[/i],

I to-day have brought thee forth.

8 Ask of Me and I give nations--thy inheritance,

And thy possession--the ends of earth.

9 Thou dost rule them with a sceptre of iron,

As a vessel of a potter Thou dost crush them.'

10 And now, O kings, act wisely,

Be instructed, O judges of earth,

1 Serve ye Jehovah with fear,

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry,

And ye lose the way,

When His anger burneth but a little,

O the happiness of all trusting in Him!

dorcas wrote:

Katy said

we receive...a crown, not land!

I know we receive a crown, but when Jesus returns to reign, will not all the saints be with Him, and will He not reign over a geographical territory? Will not saints receive land in that terrirory?

These scriptures seem relevant, although there must be many more. Including one from Psalm 2 [**edit, said Psalm 1 by mistake!**](will have to look again at Young's on this):

Mt 5:5
[color=990000] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.[/color]

Psalms 2:6
[color=990000]6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.[/color]

Psalm 24:1[color=990000]The earth is the LORD‘S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.[/color]

Zec 14:9 [color=990000] And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.[/color]

Zech 14:4 [color=990000]Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east[/color]

Jeannette

Dorcas, I have given you all my final answers and see no need to continue to post and repost the same answers. I believe the Rod of Iron refers to the future Judgment of Nations...period.

However when one wants to obscure that very definite time that will come to pass and obscure it by making it a Cross then I believe the whole concept is deceptive, of which satan will use to deceive many people.

He is famous for taking scripture out of context and is the author of confusion.

You said you started this thread and were not forth-coming as to why you started it. I believe you started this to use it as a platform to teach what you believe, in spite of those who have come on here to show you otherwise.

No scripture is of private interpretation, yet we do see in these last days the great deception coming forth with those we call verse snatchers( those who take a verse....out of context...and build a whole theology upon that verse.

This is what you are doing with the Cross and the Rod of Iron.

I'd be very mindful about playing around with any scripture dealing with the Cross...well, actually Revelation says, those who mess with that book too, adding to or**** take away**** are in great danger of hell.

Therefore on that last note, I will not continue this discussion with you. You are on your own, and you will have to stand on your own before God and give an account of what you are teaching.

To say, well, this is what this person or that is teachings will not be an excuse God will accept.

You must be thoroughly convinced in your own mind and heart , but the only truth is truth God has WROUGHT in your heart personally. You see, it's through the fellowship of His sufferings that He even reveals these most intimate truths to begin with.....not our of someone else’s teaching. He will use teachers to confirm within us what we al ready know, by His grace and Spirit. We have a witness within ourselves that that person is preaching the truth.

Many think they are being lead by the Spirit into many odd teachings, but satan can transform himself into an angel of light and a ****preacher of righteousness*****.

Any teaching that denies God's plan and future purpose with Israel, denying Romans 11, tht Paul so plainly lays out, and has eyes glazed over refusing to see. even though Ironman, Jeannette and many here on line do understand....Dorcas, be most careful in the idea of exalting yourself as the I KNOW IT ALL and will beat you down until you submit to my beliefs.

I will do no such thing. I have told you numerous times my beliefs, and until the LORD Himself changes my mind, I will set my face like flint.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hello Jeannette,

Thank you for the verses.

Hello Katy,

You might be completely right on every point of doctrine you've offered, but I also have sat under false doctrine, and love it when the Lord shows me something new. I've learned to listen to the Bible verses He brings to my attention, as often they are the key to unlocking truth in some area* of my ignorance with which I'm battling for understanding. In this case, that Israel should not be deceived, is one* of them.

I thought it would be useful to post this extract from the online Easton's Bible dictionary.

'Figuratively,

a yoke of iron (Deuteronomy 28:48) denotes hard service;

a rod of iron (Psalm 2:9), a stern government;

a pillar of iron (Jeremiah 1:18), a strong support;

a furnace of iron (Deuteronomy 4:20), severe labour;

a bar of iron (Job 40:18), strength;

fetters of iron (Psalm 107:10), affliction;

giving silver for iron (Isaiah 60:17), prosperity.'

[url=http://eastonsbibledictionary.com/i/iron.htm]Easton's Bible Dictionary[/url]

a rod of iron (Psalm 2:9), a stern government;

Yes, I agree with that.

I know the preaching of the cross is called the Good News,

The "Rod of Iron" is that Jesus will rule the Nations with a Rod of Iron just as He said.

For He must rule until He has put all enemies under His foot. 1st Corinthians 15.

The He would be Christ, not the Church. The Church is always considered a she..the Bride etc.

We of coarse will rule with Him.

Acts 1:6&7 Jesus says absolutely he will restore the Kingdom to Israel, but it was only the time The Father Knew. This is the Second coming of Christ of which only the Father knows.

That second coming to earth is to set up His Kingdom promised to Israel.....Acts 1:6&7.

His Saints (the church will be with Him reigning and Ruling) so it won't be us setting up the Kingdom without Him, and we will at that time be Glorified together with Christ...the church of Both Jews and Gentiles.

Those who enter the Kingdom reign I showed you several scriptures about a lion laying down with a lamb, a baby living to 100 etc. A closer look shows this not to be heaven, for heaven is eternal life...no years will be counted, and our life now has no such manifestations. This will be what it will be like during the Kingdom Reign. Isaiah...the whole earth is at REST...no wars etc.

The thing to watch out for is anti-christ will bring in peace for 3 1/2 years and that is why many will think he is the King himself taking the throne....2 Thessalonians.

He will make a covenant of hell with Israel, and then after 3 1/2 years will turn on then....leading to Armageddon.

There are so many things falling into place right now.....the world is in a mess, and when someone comes along and brings peace, watch out, it will be a false peace. Although signs and miracles will accompany this imposter, even the elect, if it were possible will be deceived.

This is not something any man has taught me, but the Lord Himself, over these last 30 years, line by line, precept upon precept.

I know there are many different end times teachers out there, and I really don’t pay much attention , but only what the Lord Himself has taught me…the Woman who rides the beast…He showed me what she was wearing, so so many things.

Anyway, because there will be so many deceived, that is why my heart has to say what the Lord has taught me to say. This didn’t happen overnight or some quick coarse on end times.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
PS: Added,

You see, much of this judgement is coming to Israel because they make this covenant.

God said, Wow to those who put their faith in horses and men but not me..

Isaiah 30&31.

:-Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

God is going to allow this to bring Israel to Himself....but that doesn't mean we are to be a part of it. We need to warn and witness to Israel, but certainly not be apart of the anti-christ movement coming against Israel.

Romans 8
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

I believe the mortification of the flesh through the Spirit, is ongoing 'stern government' by the cross in the life of the believer who embraces it.

I believe the mortification of the flesh through the Spirit, is ongoing 'stern government' by the cross in the life of the believer who embraces it.

I know I said I wouldn't reply to any more comments...so I lied, but do have to make a comment here.

The Holy Spirit in our lives is the Very Life of Christ in us. Being changed from Glory to Glory even by the Spirit of the Lord.

Our old man was crucified with Christ and is rendered dead...our history in adam 1 in God's eyes is over and out. We are always carrying about the dying of Christ that the very life of Christ is manifest.

Our old nature is not being made over as you seem to imply needing a strong government to rule. It was the LAW as a rule over the flesh until we came to Christ by Faith.

With what you are saying Dorcas, not being rude or mean or anything of the sort....are you sure you understand the Cross? Do you understand Colossians 2.

All that was nailed to the cross! We are FREE, and live in that Liberty that Jesus set us free, so no need to be govern with a rod. Your teaching (((Law and Grace)))). That only keeps in line and stll alive. The Cross however puts sin out of business, as we die to sin. but sin itself never dies and never will.

Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death...I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord.

Yield,Know and reckon this to be fact.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hello Katy,

You said

sin itself never dies and never will

You can't agree that 'our old man' was crucified, but deny that sin was neutralised... or you can, but it doesn't make much sense.

Our victory over sin is not a notional victory. It is real, because Christ's was real. He really did destroy sin and abolish death, on the cross.

I don't believe that flesh is sinful for ever like some people do (who seem to think that when Paul was writing Romans he came to a bit which he couldn't get past in the place we call chapter 7, and chapter 8 therefore is pure imagination). But I do believe that flesh was born with a driving force which compelled it to sin, and those who come to Christ and enter into His death, also enter into the death of the sin-principle in their lives. Nevertheless, the flesh has been ruling the roost until that time, and still has big ideas.

Unless the Christian ceases from complying with the flesh, the flesh will continue to rule. Isn't this what we see all the time? But Paul explains that with the help of the Spirit we can stop doing 'the deeds of the flesh' and God will bring new life into our very flesh where there was death. I testify to this truth. And I understand you may not know many people who believe sin itself is dead. It's not a popular doctrine, because it places responsibility on the believer to cease from sin.

Re my earlier link of the Rod with Psalm 23, I mentioned that the rod was used to fight wild beasts that were threatening the flock.

It reminded me of a verse in the hymn: [i][b]Approach, my soul, the mercy seat[/b][/i]

[i]Be Thou my Shield and hiding Place,
That, sheltered by Thy side,
I may my fierce accuser face,
And tell him Thou hast died![/i]

Doesn't that give a lovely picture of the sheep huddling around the Shepherd for protection, as He holds his rod up against the wolf!

It's the fact of Jesus' death upon the Cross that defeats Satan's accusations.

So there is a link, but it doesn't mean "the mortification of the flesh through the Spirit" or "'stern government' by the cross ", but our [i]protection[/i] against the Accuser.

The sheep are [i]never[/i] beaten by the Shepherd's rod. He might sometimes throw the rod [i]over[/i] the head of a straying sheep to bring it back, but it never touches it. the sheep would only feel the warning wind of the rod's passing, and hear the thump as it hits the ground ahead, but that would be all. And for a true lamb of the flock that would be enough.

The rod might (so I gather) also be used in an extreme instance of a very rebellious lamb that persists in straying. The shepherd actually breaks its leg so it can't wander off, then carries it on his shoulders until it's healed.

By that time it is so used to being with the shepherd that it keeps close as possible and never attempts to stray again.

Thus the most defiant, disobedient, and wounded becomes, in the end, the Shepherd's greatest "pet" and loyal and trusting follower!

[i]What[/i] a picture of the Good Shepherd! :-D

I don't really care any more what the rod signifies, just want to bow down in amazed awe at such grace - typified by an earthly shepherd, but so much greater!

Praise Him, bless Him for His infinite love, who does all things well.

in Him

Jeannette

Dorcas,

I personally agree with Katy-did on his/her doctrine and theology.

I have been brought through the furnace in my life in many ways. I have been consumed by false teachings that have almost put me in the insane assylum. The dangers of mingling law and grace are far more extreme than most realize. This is why Jesus warned the deciples not to be like the pharisees whos religion was an outward show of works. God deals with the heart, not with the flesh.

Take this as a warning from a concerned brother. I have been right where you are now in your belifs and I gotta tell you, the whole time I knew deep inside that this was'nt right but I kept on beliving it until my spiritual life spiraled out of control.

Katy-did is very learned in the scriptures not in just an intellectual since. He has a spiritual understanding of the scriptures that can only come from a seasoned veteran, a battle hardened soldier if you will. It's apparent that he's wrestled with these truths and has put much thought and prayer into his studys. I would suggest you listen to him and take it as a gentle rebuke from a loving brother/sister.

Were living in a time when there is so much confusion, that a little of this poisonous doctrine has infiltrated in some way into almost all our churches. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. So be carefull.

Katy-did,

Could you elaborate on 'the mystery of godliness'.
Thanks

To Chiefosinners, with Love:

The Mystery of Godliness,

WOW, now that’s a subject isn’t it. I know I can approach this in a text book manner, but I will do this a different way.

I know I shared before on line here (suicide thread) some of my testimony, just briefly, but will share more here unfolding this Mystery through my own life experience.

Family of 8. Six children. Father grew up in an orphanage run by a Church during the depression. They were all abused terribly. The kept a strict rule of LAW , and were disciplined just short of being stoned to death for being naughty. Many times made to stand in the winter snow in their underwear until well, I guess they learned their lesson. (Wisconsin is mighty cold in the winter.) All in the name of Thou shall not! His younger brother died in that orphanage, being denied his medicine for punishment.

My Mother, well, grew up in so much wealth that the nanny’s raised her. No love their either shall we say.

Two dysfunctional parents raising 6 to become one big dysfunctional family. My parents were always in competition with one another and all of us. “ Who do you love more, your mother or me?
My Father was a democrat, mother republican, Mother a Christian, Father an atheist…they were as extreme as extreme could get.

I remember when the elections were coming up (when Eisenhower won), that all this commotion was going on, and the next thing I knew, I was probably about 5 then, that my dad wakes me up, and forced me to decide then if I was going to be a republican or democrat….then hearing my mom in the background yelling, Do you want to be a jack ass like your father? Sad to say, you never went against Dad, or there was hell to pay, so I that night out of fear became a democrat!

This went on all my life with everything. I wasn’t allowed to pick out my cloths, but was brought in to decide (after they went shopping) who’s did I like the most, what my mother picked out or what my father picked out.

When I was in the 4th grade, it was finally discovered I was blind as a bat, and needed glasses. When we got home from the Dr. my father beat me horribly because I was imperfect…..as no one ever in any side of any family had bad eyes. So he picked out my glasses, horrible maroon with rind stones on the tips of the frame as my punishment. I made the mistake of accidentally on purpose breaking them, but ended up wearing them with a big ol ugly wad of glue right over the nose. Well you can see by now, there is no worth what so ever inside…none. Just a limp empty shell going through the motions of life.

I mentioned once before how hard it is when you come from abuse to see yourself a sinner. You see yourself a victim and everyone else is a sinner. However at the age of 8 I did ask Jesus into my heart, but new nothing more then this. I didn’t KNOW the Lord in a personal intimate way, but He knew me. That would be 50 years ago. All I knew was LAW as that is all that was taught…thou shall not! A life full of thou shall not.

I married a man who also went to church (we got married in Church) who was as clueless as I was. However, he confessed later he was an atheist and only pretended around his parents and brothers.

Big shock there. But that didn’t come to light until I heard a side of the Gospel I had never heard….total surrender….Romans 6-8. And the Lord didn’t bring this information to me until after He worked something out in me. I was oh so blessed in my marriage, beautiful home, beautiful children, more money than God, could do and spend any way I liked…all those material things we think are blessings from God.
(Although Children are truly a blessing and not material). I cried for a year after my son was born because I couldn’t believe God gave me the most wonderful Gift of all. He told me before he was born to name him Samuel. I really didn’t know why, but knew this was from the Lord. I didn’t even know who Samuel was in the Bible, but knew he was in the Bible, so I looked it up…and there it was….A Gift from God. My first real life encounter with the God of Love. My idea of God was someone who sent a lightning bolt our of heaven to kill you if you got out of line. So we were all kept in line too by this teaching and fear of God.

Well, before the Romans 6-8 encounter sitting in my living room, looking at all my beautiful things wondering why I had them, a strange sadness came over me, because firstly I never asked for them in the first place. I started crying because they were just things..things that could never love you back. And I prayed thanking the Lord for them, but said what I wanted most was Him, to really know Him, and to be able to say and feel all those things I heard Born Again Christians say how much they loved God, how this and how that…and I never had that.

Then one day, shortly after that, I was washing dishes and I heard (not audibly) but inside….Katy, I want your whole life…all of it. I was rather stunned, and ran up to my room, curled in a corner and the first thing I asked “ What about (my Husband) do you want him too? And no answer. Yet He said again, I want your whole life, and I said Yes. No I didn’t speak in tongues, but I believe that day I was truly Born Again, born of the Spirit of the Life of Jesus Christ in me.

Well, God had His work cut out for Him, believe me. My poor pitiful flesh, what to do, what to do. Depression, on the brink of suicide most of my life, no worth at all etc, etc.

So, hearing some of these NEW evangelists talk about Self esteem etc, etc, I thought I was going to ride high on the wings of God, but found He took me in another direction….through the valley of the shadow of death. Shocking! Shocking! Shocking! And it was there I learned no matter what kind of flesh you have, self righteous or just plain trashed by life itself, I learned “no longer I but Christ”. I learned His strength in my weakness, and that was a huge one. I learned faith that works through LOVE, and that Faith is the very life of Christ in you, the Faith that is partakers of HIS HOLINESS. He showed me my sin nature, my flesh, and a different side of pride we don’t know we even have. He showed me the Cross, and showed me His promises, His Word, and I took Him at His Word, every Word, by faith, that what He had begun He Will finish.

That’s just the beginning of the secret of the Mystery Of Godliness. Paul struggles with his flesh being reared by the Law, as he said in Philippians, concerning the Law, blameless…That too had to go.

He said, That I may KNOW Him, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death that I may attain to the resurrection.

We learn what we learn of Christ through this fellowship, and He has some awesome beautiful truths to teach us, if only we trust Him along the way, and through this journey .

Well, this is getting too long, and I do apologize for that. Just putting scripture down alone many breeze over wanting to argue this doctrinal point against that. But who can argue against reality !

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Thank you Katy, I'm so glad you shared all that. I realised you were an absolutely honest, straight down the line sort of person, (sometimes disconcertingly so!) but this helps in a fuller understanding of where you're coming from. I for one have gained through this post a fuller appreciation of who you are now - as the Lord has remade that broken vessel. As He has to with all of us, even those brought up in the most loving, sheltered home...

What grace indeed!

I mentioned once before how hard it is when you come from abuse to see yourself a sinner. You see yourself a victim and everyone else is a sinner.

I was never abused or anything like that, but as an over-sensitive only child was teased, belittled or (worse) ignored by certain other children as I was growing up. Even until recently (such as today!) I still "saw myself as a victim", because of certain people "being nasty to me", instead of dealing with my own wrong reactions to that "nastiness" of others. Conviction of sin and repentance is difficult when others really have done horrible things to you, but it's the only way forward.

I'm reading a novel by the Canadian Christian writer, Janette Oake. It's about a teenage girl who fled from an abusive home. Her father was an alcoholic and used to bully and beat her and her mother, so her mother encouraged her to get out.

She became a Christian but still carried that anger and "root of bitterness" in her heart for several years, until at last she realised she had to let it go.

Only when we [b][i]repent[/i][/b] and let go our bitterness, anger, resentment, self pity etc can we be made whole.

That's the danger of so much nonsense that's been written and spoken about "inner healing" and the like. It's often made to sound so convincing, (I was taken in by some of it for a time too). Especially if we are deeply wounded by past experiences, or like me, suffering from guilt, inferiority etc.

The Lord tells us how precious we are to Him, if that's what we need to hear, not what wonderful people [i]we[/i] are, and what a great ministry He has planned for us! Neither does He take us on a journey back to our childhood to deal with painful things of the past, and heal our "inner child". Rather He deals with our PRESENT anger, bitterness, fear or pain, however caused. He is a God of the [i]now[/i], the I AM!

So, hearing some of these NEW evangelists talk about Self esteem etc, etc, I thought I was going to ride high on the wings of God, but found He took me in another direction….through the valley of the shadow of death.

And it was there I learned no matter what kind of flesh you have, self righteous or just plain trashed by life itself, I learned “no longer I but Christ”. I learned His strength in my weakness, and that was a huge one. I learned faith that works through LOVE, and that Faith is the very life of Christ in you, the Faith that is partakers of HIS HOLINESS. He showed me my sin nature, my flesh, and a different side of pride we don’t know we even have. He showed me the Cross, and showed me His promises, His Word, and I took Him at His Word, every Word, by faith, that what He had begun He Will finish.

That’s just the beginning of the secret of the Mystery Of Godliness. Paul struggles with his flesh being reared by the Law,

as he said in Philippians, concerning the Law, blameless…That too had to go.

He said, That I may KNOW Him, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death that I may attain to the resurrection.

We learn what we learn of Christ through this fellowship, and He has some awesome beautiful truths to teach us, if only we trust Him along the way, and through this journey .

...Just putting scripture down alone many breeze over wanting to argue this doctrinal point against that. But who can argue against reality !

I can see now that you aren't arguing points of doctrine (for a time I thought you were), nor talking about "reality" as in mere empty "experiences" but reality as in [u]the Truth of the Word worked out in the life[/u].

Isn't He wonderful! :-D

in Him

Jeannette

Well said Katy-did,

I was hoping you would apply that to your own life. You're right, what better way to explain this mystery.

I would have to say, I would bet that you were saved as that eight year old child, but when you prayed that prayer, God was getting some relief that you talked to him. ;-)

Weve all been corrupted by some kind of teaching of LAW. Whether in our upbringing, or at church it's the one thing God did not want in the garden,------- good, evil, just, unjust,right, wrong. We have become judges. Your sin is worse than my sin, my sin is worse than your sin. You can do this but you can't do that, and it goes on and on.

Christ is all in all. If were in Christ weve fulfilled the law because he fulfilled the law. It is finished. AMEN!

Hello Chiefosinnrs and Jeannette,

Yo Chief....I can so relate to your comment about the Law mixed with grace almost sending you to the looney bin. I really think that happens when the Lord is fighting for your complete surrender to Him and His word to let Him be your all in all, your life, and breath. Our God is a jealous God and will keep those He's saved by Grace to live in His Grace.

Exodus 15:13
Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation

Psalm 86:15
But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, long suffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.

Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged:

I wrote a poem years ago that edned like this..it's quite long so this is teh ending

Your Mercy so graceous,
You spend it on me,
Oh what is this Love,
You want me to see.

It has no conditions,
Of which on my part,
I must work to earn it,
It's Grace you inpart.

All fear leaves this Love,
A Peace now does land,
My heart fixed on Jesus,
I REST in His Hand.

Jeannette brought up an excellent point too about the psychobabbel in the Church every bit as dangerous as Legalism.

Paul said, leave those things behind and press on ...look foreward to what is ahead.

Psychobabbel is streight from hell as well, pampering the flesh, keeping you in a pitty party all your life, bitter, if onlys etc.

Jesus didn't come to remake your old flesh, he came to crucify it, put it totally out of business.

The Blood of Jesus has purged our conscience from dead works to serve the Living God.

We are a New creation in Christ Jesus, old things pass away, adn all things become New.

Although this is a promise to those in Heaven, tht He will wipe away all our tears and we will remember no more...it's true today.

I share these things as a victorious Christian who has overcome and live on the Resurrection side of life, to let othrs know that nothing but nothing is impossible with God.

Saved at 8, I do believe you are correct. Yet how many others only have a basic understanding of salvation...( when I die, I'll go to heaven) but don't know what we are to have of the Lord here and now.

Love to you all
Katy-Did

chiefosiners wrote:

Dorcas,

I personally agree with Katy-did on his/her doctrine and theology.

The dangers of mingling law and grace are far more extreme than most realize. This is why Jesus warned the deciples not to be like the pharisees whos religion was an outward show of works. God deals with the heart, not with the flesh.

Take this as a warning from a concerned brother. I have been right where you are now in your belifs ...

Thank you for your concern. :-)

Looking back, I realise I didn't reply to Katy's comment about mixing law and grace.

We could talk about this some more, perhaps, as I am a vehement opponent of mixing law and grace, and do not accept Katy's (or yours, if you agree with her), assessment of my comments.

Remember, Katy believes sin itself 'cannot die', while at the same time believing that 'our old man' (our sinful nature) was crucified with Christ. This is an oxymoron. Those two clauses are mutually exclusive. If 'our old man' is dead, then so is sin. If sin cannot die, then neither can 'our old man'.

Katy said this

The Holy Spirit in our lives is the Very Life of Christ in us. Being changed from Glory to Glory even by the Spirit of the Lord.

Katy said

Our old man was crucified with Christ and is rendered dead...our history in adam 1 in God's eyes is over and out. We are always carrying about the dying of Christ that the very life of Christ is manifest.

Katy said

Our old nature is not being made over as you seem to imply needing a strong government to rule.

I have watched a number of threads on SI, in which the doctrine that we cannot overcome sin was put forth regularly and emphatically by those who have been taught that righteousness is imputed but not imparted. I don't agree with them either.

I believe that righteousness is both imputed [i]and[/i] imparted. There is no other conclusion to reach, if one (Katy, for instance) believes (as quoted above) 'The Holy Spirit in our lives is the Very Life of Christ in us.' This agrees with several places in the New Testament.

contd.

contd.

Katy said

It was the LAW as a rule over the flesh until we came to Christ by Faith.

The law 'as a rule over the flesh', did not [i]alter[/i] the flesh at all. Nothing about the nature of man could be changed by the law.

The law had the effect of informing him of his sinfulness. By the keeping of rituals, man made enough peace with God to keep communication with Him open.

I have seen many write here that they believe their flesh cannot change. True, it is decaying and will die. This part of the death which passed from Adam to us has not been removed.

But Paul said in Romans 8 (as I quoted)
11 But [u]if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you[/u], he that raised up Christ from the dead [u]shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you[/u].
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

What vv 11 and 13 mean is a step more than what Katy said. It means [i]the Holy Spirit comes to bring the life of Jesus Christ [b]into our flesh[/i][/b].

Katy may not agree with this, but this is my testimony.

Christ bore the cross [i]for us[/i], and when we apply His death to our flesh, (with the help of the Holy Spirit), we feel the pain. Contrary to the ineffectiveness of applying 'the law' to our flesh, as we embrace it, the cross actually changes our flesh that we cease to sin [u]in fact[/u].

I hope I have put your mind at rest, chiefosiners, that there was no 'law' in my reasoning. The next few verses of Romans 8 state:

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and [b]joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [/b][him], [b]that we may be also glorified together[/b].

1 Peter 4
1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for [b]he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin[/b];
2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Just for further clarification, I don't believe that bringing the cross to bear on our flesh, for its mortification by the help of the Spirit, is the kind of suffering Paul is speaking about in Romans 8:17 or Philippians 3, here -

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

I don't believe the doctrine which says persecution comes to enable us to cease from sin. We are already enabled by the Spirit, to cease from sin; if we don't cease from sin we may not be counted worthy to suffer [i]for Him[/i] - the purpose of suffering being to bring glory to His name.

Although this is a different discussion, in some ways it touches on Katy's unwillingness to attribute the wrath of God against sin, to Christ's work on the cross. For, if we do not understand that He took that wrath and judgement [i]for us[/i], then we may not be able to enter [i]into[/i] [u]His[/u] resurrection life as we could, even if we do have forgiveness of sins.

Dear Katy,

I want you to know I had not read your post in answer to chiefosiners when I replied to him.

Thank you for all you shared. This is the first time I've heard any of your testimony.

But who can argue against reality !

Some of your replies in this thread make a little more sense now.

Although this is a different discussion, in some ways it touches on Katy's unwillingness to attribute the wrath of God against sin, to Christ's work on the cross. For, if we do not understand that He took that wrath and judgement for us, then we may not be able to enter into His resurrection life as we could, even if we do have forgiveness of sins.

Dorcas, did you even read my last post to Chiefosiners and Jeannette.

If we fellowship in the fellowship of His sufferings, and Jesus was wothout sin, what fellowship do you suppose is meant here.

Jesus suffered in all ways like us yet without sin...so that fellowship is nore than ( Your words) killing sin. Paul said we died to sin. Please reread Romans 6 very closely.

God's purpose is to bring us into a mature life of living God's will...severing painfully our attachment to this world and the things of this world. The acid He pours on our lives is teh very acid that break those chains.

Sin is not a person that can die. But we are a person who dies to sin and comes alive in Christ.

Please find one scripture that says SIN DIES.

You see that which is dead has no need to be ruled by a strong rod of governing. This is exactly law, keeping the flesh under law, and trying to live in the Spirit by Grace....it is impossible.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS, Also Dorcas, have you considered my signature scripture...it says dead.

Now I've read right up to date in the thread, I have one comment to add.

Not justifying 'psychobabble', I wish to defend [u]Jesus the Great Physician[/u] for all those out there reading, who [i][b]do[/i][/b] need His healing to parts of their inner man that have not been healed by repentance and faith.

While it is true that we react to abuse in ways which grieve God, abuse itself is not the fault of the victim, and the Lord does desire [i]deeply[/i], to heal the effects of it and restore the wounded spirit, mind, body and soul.

Forgiveness for abusers is founded on [u]the fact[/u] that Jesus Christ died for their sins also. The time comes when a victim has to eat this truth.

Churches have not been good at presenting the balance which is in the New Testament. Remember, there is not a single instance recorded where Jesus refused to heal a person until they had repented. He even forgave some who were not even seeking forgiveness.

Also, if you are too sick inwardly to get to Jesus by going to church - maybe church has made you feel you are too hard to handle - you can call on Jesus to come to you, where you are. He [i]will come[/i]. But remember, if He heals you, [i]you have to move on[/i]. No more lying down 'sick'.

This takes faith, and honesty with yourself and with God, and a willingness to change and be changed. It can take a multitude of minor restorations to be strong enough to blend in a crowd (of church people), but every step counts, so don't resist to [i]start[/i] the journey, just because you don't know where it will lead, or.... end.

He is faithful and full of compassion. Amen. I know this God.

Katy-did,

Absolutely, since you said that it made me look at it in a different way. I just told my wife on the phone today on the way home from work, preaching to her, as I always do. Glad someone will listen to me preach :-P I don't think I would even listen to my preaching :-( anyhoo I was telling my wife that these trials purify our faith, our hope, and our love. How can a woman with breast cancer who has lost both breasts, wears a wig, and her eyebrows have fallen out, looking like an alien from another planet, just sit and smile with a radiant, peaceful look on her face. Well morphine might have something to do wit it, but for a christian it's more so that purifying of her faith and hope. Her hope rests in Christ. Her faith rests in Christ. Her love rests in Christ. All in all. Peace. Grace. Dying Grace!!! Mercy? Sure--- all of that and more. Christ. Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus the HOPE of glory. Glory. GLORY!!!! What a light yoke. It's soooo easy. This is nothing. I could carry this all day long. Exactly!!!! 8-)

So, what am I trying to say. Total surrender it's kinda like this. Jesus says "let me do it for you". I say "no, I want to do it myself. Jesus says "Just give it to me". I say "No! it's mine I want it". Jesus says "fine, we"ll see how long this lasts". I say "hey, i'm doing pretty good, hey---------,wait a minute,-------oooomph, wow, :-? This is getting pretty heavy------ohhhh---Ican't do it much longer---Oh!!!!!!ccccccaaaaannn'ttt take it anymore HELP!!!!!!!!!! Jesus says "Did someone say help" I say "yyeeeesssss LLLOOOOrd HELP!!!!" Jesus says" Thank you. I thought you'd never ask. :-D

Hi Katy,

No, I was reading the posts one by one.

Here's a scripture (KJV) from Romans 6:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that [b]the body of sin might be destroyed[/b], that henceforth we should not serve sin.

OK. Sin 'isn't a person', but Paul gives it a title 'our old man' - which [i]sounds like a person[/i] - and calls it [u]the body of sin[/u].

You asked

If we fellowship in the fellowship of His sufferings, and Jesus was wothout sin, what fellowship do you suppose is meant here.

If these threads were just a conversation between you, me and whoever joins us, no doubt I would write differently, but sometimes there are over 80 other people reading, and who knows what they believe, of if they are Christians.

I would not post on SI at all, except I believe God wants me to. The moment He wants me to stop, I'll stop. But with this liberty comes a ferocious responsibility to testify to the Only True and Living God, and to leave as little confusion behind us as possible.

Like you, I have a testimony, and in the same way as your testimony is perfectly relevant to encourage some people, mine is also, for others.

Well you agree with me. That was my point. But I wrote what I did because of previous discussion on SI where it was suggested somewhat authoritatively, that the suffering by which we cease from sin, is 'the fellowship of His sufferings'. I wrote as I did to distance myself from that thesis, and to give my reasoning from scripture.

Dorcas, I put together many scriptures about suffering and I do hope you read them.

The fellowship of His sufferings is that Jesus became obedient unt death, even death of a cross. We are too to keep this mind in us.

That little boy Isaac, lay on an alter trusting in His father...not because of his sin, but because of obedience.

Jesus suffered in the garden of Gethsemine sweating drops of blood, haden't yet taken our sin upon Him, but prayed to do the will of the Father.

The greatest moment of all in His suffering was when he said, My God, My God why hs thou forsaken me....that was the moment our sin's were placed on Jesus. I've always heard God cannot look at sin, and that is why Jesus Cried out.

We're not saved by suffering, we're saved by teh resurrected life of Christ.

Justified by His blood and SAVED by His life, His risen life.

Here are those scriptures about suffering from another perspective. We must always discern our suffering, as we do get scorged for disobedience.

We suffer because we belong to Him as well.

And those **firey** trials purge and purify our lives.

Acts 9:16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Philippians 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Acts 5:41
And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

2 Thessalonians 1:
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:12-14
12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1 Peter 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1 Peter 2:22-24
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed

James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Hebrews 11:24-26
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did ;-)

This is getting pretty heavy------ohhhh---Ican't do it much longer---Oh!!!!!!ccccccaaaaannn'ttt take it anymore HELP!!!!!!!!!! Jesus says "Did someone say help" I say "yyeeeesssss LLLOOOOrd HELP!!!!" Jesus says" Thank you. I thought you'd never ask.

EXACTLY!!!! :-) :-) :-) :-)

Jesus tests our faith so we can PROVE His faithfulness.

Glory Glory Glory, and when you get a taste of it...nothing in this world even comes close.

I do hope you weren't describing your wife as ill, but just an example.

A dear friend died of a crippling arthritic, many years in a wheelchair. Oh my, her Joy put us all to shame. We'd be wining about our kids or this or that and then just look at her, who never complained, but was radiant. and just shut our mouths in shame.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hi C-o-S. What's your real name by the way?

Maybe we should just call you "Chief"?

Like your posts though :-)

Jeannette

chiefosiners wrote:
Well said Katy-did,

I was hoping you would apply that to your own life. You're right, what better way to explain this mystery.

I would have to say, I would bet that you were saved as that eight year old child, but when you prayed that prayer, God was getting some relief that you talked to him. ;-)

Weve all been corrupted by some kind of teaching of LAW. Whether in our upbringing, or at church it's the one thing God did not want in the garden,------- good, evil, just, unjust,right, wrong. We have become judges. Your sin is worse than my sin, my sin is worse than your sin. You can do this but you can't do that, and it goes on and on.

Christ is all in all. If were in Christ weve fulfilled the law because he fulfilled the law. It is finished. AMEN!

Littlegift,

My name is Jason, and no Katydid, that was just an example, not my wife. I like to try and keep things light hearted. If we get too serious about stuff it adds unnnnnneeeeeeded stress to our lives. Life is good. God is good.

When I posted this thread, there was certain information I didn't have, and, I couldn't justify what seemed to be coming to my spirit. No apologies for that, because this is part of the function of SI, to constrain us to study, to meditate, to hear from the Lord and to become more articulate in expressing His word to us.

One of the most striking things about David's prophecies about Jesus, is that they are largely without context. At the time he was receiving them and singing them as psalms, the law was relatively fresh in the Hebrew mind, and God had not yet promised that his throne would last for ever. That was some promise still to come!

So also, the 'rod of iron' or the 'sceptre of iron' as Young puts it, is something to do with God eventually ruling all nations somehow. It could even have been surmised by David that 'my son', 'his anointed' was David himself, who was yet to become the instrument by which God's authority was established over all local kingdoms. And yet David never took these to himself, no matter how true in temporal terms these prophecies became in his life; he [i]knew[/i] they were about someone [i]higher[/i].

In Daniel 2:40 we read this:
[i]And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.[/i]

Regarding the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream, I had a look at when the Romans (whose empire had begun formally in the third century BC) had taken over Judea, and was amazed to find it was only a couple of years before Jesus was born.

Thus, looking at the parts of the image in the dream, the iron part had begun over two hundred years before Christ - that is, the Roman empire - and went on for a similar length of time afterwards - long enough to take the gospel along all those new roads! No wonder Jesus had advised to be willing to carry a soldier's load an extra mile - twice as much time for evangelism :-) .

Daniel had said:
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [i]things[/i]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And [i]as[/i] the toes of the feet [i]were[/i] part of iron, and part of clay, [i]so[/i] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. {broken: or, brittle}
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 [b]And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [/b][i]but[/i] [b]it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever[/b].
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [i]is[/i] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

In the image, iron represented strength. The Romans prided themselves on the obedience their soldiers could demonstrate, even being obedient to death for show and the pride of man.

Of course the cross itself was not iron, but it was the symbol of death in a kingdom represented symbolically by iron in the image. There, Jesus was obedient to death humanly speaking, but in becoming sin for us that sin might be put to death for ever, He brought an end to the strength of sin and the pride and rebellion of man against God, which had held dominion over mankind. As suddenly as the rock hit the foot of the image (vv 34, 45), sin was stopped in its tracks, and He put an end to its empire on earth more than symbolically - beginning [i]His[/i] 'empire'.

The mention of 'bruise' in v 40 reminds us of the damage Jesus did to the serpent's head, as He was lifted up, in the same way that Moses lifted up the serpent on the pole in the wilderness for those bitten by serpents ('stung by the scorpion sin' - [i]C. Wesley[/i]). In Him, the serpent was slain for us.

This seems to be a typical picture of God turning the plans of His enemies - Psalm 2:3
'Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us' - back on themselves.

'Bands' were associated with a heavy yoke from which there was no escape. Someone else had to come and release the person thus yoked, just as Jesus had to be released from the cross, after bearing its yoke for us.

Psalm 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Isaiah 10:27
And it shall come to pass in that day, [i]that[/i] his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

Isaiah 58:6
[i]Is[/i] not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

From then on, in the [i]hands[/i] of Jesus, the rod of iron - more than a mere [i]symbol[/i] of death - is transformed into the sceptre of His reign over all nations as the Prince of Peace. Through the cross, He is our peace, our strength, and peace is the absolute strength of His kingdom within and around us.

This is how I've been coming to understand 'the rod of iron's sway.

[url=http://www.roman-empire.net]Roman Empire info[/url]
Maps linked from side menu.

My heart and voice I raise
To sing Messiah's praise;
Messiah's praise let all repeat:
The universal Lord,
By whose almighty word
Creation rose in form complete.

A servant's form He wore,
And in His body bore
Our dreadful curse on Calvary;
He like a victim stood
And poured His sacred blood
To set the gulty captives free.

But soon the Victor rose
Triumphant o'er His foes,
And led the vanquished host in chains;
He threw their empire down,
His foes compelled to own
O'er all the great Messiah reigns.

With mercy's mildest grace,
He governs all our race
In wisdom righteousness and love;
Who to Messiah fly
Shall find redemption nigh
And all His great salvation prove.

Hail, Saviour, Prince of Peace!
Thy kingdom shall increase,
Till all the world Thy glory see,
And righteousness abound,
As the great deep profound
And fill the earth with purity!

Acts 16:26
And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

Tune:
[url=http://www.ccel.org/cceh/0000/x000048.htm]http://www.ccel.org/cceh/0000/x000048.htm[/url]

[url=http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/f/a/l/faljesus.htm]http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/f/a/l/faljesus.htm[/url]

[url=http://www.smallchurchmusic.com/MP3/CAM_MP3-FairestLordJesus-Pipe01C-128-CAM_1167007547.mp3]http://www.smallchurchmusic.com/MP3/CAM_MP3-FairestLordJesus-Pipe01C-128-CAM_1167007547.mp3[/url]

Dorcas, possibly the rod of iron is connected to forced obedience?

We all know that Jesus went willingly to the cross for us - John 10. He said that He who had delivered Him into the hands of His accusers, had the greater sin - John 19:11. His silence during questioning is a fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah (53) that He 'opened not His mouth' when He was 'led as a lamb to the slaughter'. I don't think He was forced to do anything. That was [u]His[/u] love for mankind, which made Him do all that He did for to save us.

My longer post above proposes that the 'rod of iron' of Psalm 2 was prophetic, just as Nebuchadnezzar's dream and its interpretation were prophetic. And that the reference to the rod of iron in Revelation is not about the Lord treating men harshly because they won't come to Him for salvation, but a way of connecting the meaning of the original prophecy with our understanding of its continued outworking into the then (and now) future.

Jesus had said:
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth - Matt28:18.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [i]the kingdoms[/i] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

Probably there were nations yet to be evangelised, when Jesus gave this revelation to John, but we can all agree that with regard to the general kingdom of the world (that which is ruled over by sin and death), a new king had already been established in Christ. This is intimated at the start of the revelation:

Revelation 1:18
"I [i]am[/i] He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Jesus was already the conquering hero, and both Eph 2:6 and Hebrews 10:13 tell that He ascended to sit at the Father's right hand, resting, until His enemies were all under His feet (become His footstool) [u]and[/u] we (who believe) [u]are[/u] [i][b]in Him[/b][/i]. It is us who still need to conquer death in our living out of [i]His[/i] life on this earth. He has conquered it (death) with absolute certainty and completion.

David.... unless we [i]see[/i] the cross as [i]comforting[/i] (in our experience) to our sinful state, in the remedy it brings to our having been out of fellowshp with God through the separations caused by sin, what Jesus endured for us, or that we can receive the gift of peace with God [u]and[/u] eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus, is lost on us. It is wasted. And, we have nothing to share with others - no good news.

The whole point of the gospel is that no-one coming to Christ has to bear the penalty for their own sin, because He's already borne it.

So when you ask about forced obedience, I don't see that applying to anything except the powers under the earth. Because God [u]has already given Jesus[/u] - a name highly exalted above every other name - and every knee [i]will[/i] bow to it.

Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth [i]in[/i] righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.

Remember all the times Jesus told evil or unclean spirits to stop declaring who He is? (Mark's gospel records a few of these in early chapters.) Well, now we all have permission to declare His name to the underling powers, and the unsaved - "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

Philippians 2:9 - 16
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and [i]that[/i] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [i]is[/i] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [i]His[/i] good pleasure.

Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

I don't think God desires our obedience should be forced. I really don't.

Just as soon as I'd closed my computer down last night, an old hymn which we used to sing at school, came to me, words and all. I was astonished!

The whole hymn is on cyberhymnal to the only tune I knew, but here are the opening lines, which tie up with the title of the thread:

Thy Kingdom come, O God,
[b]Thy rule, O Christ, begin;
Break with Thine iron rod
The tyrannies of sin[/b].

Where is Thy reign of peace,
And purity, and love?

[url=http://cyberhymnal.org/htm/t/h/y/thykicog.htm]Tune: St Cecelia (Hayne)[/url]

This week the Times Square Church Sunday sermon by Carter Conlon's was entitled 'Thy Kingdom Come'. Amen. I found it necessarily convicting and bless God for this servant who faithfully brings His word to the Church, for any who have ears to hear.