Is Christmas Purely a Pagan Holiday?

I found this quite well balanced a good treatment of the issue, not a ignorance but at the same time not making teachings and doctrines of men on side issues.

[b]Is Christmas Purely a Pagan Holiday?[/b]

"Don’t get a symbologist started on Christian icons. Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian God Mithras—called the Son of God and the Light of the World-was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 is also the birthday of Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Even Christianity’s weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans." Professor Teabing, in Dan Brown, The DaVinci Code1

What business does a Christian have celebrating Christmas, since the Bible gives no date for Christ’s birth? Isn’t Christmas as we know it only an old pagan holiday? If so, why should we celebrate Christmas?

Firstly, the objection implies that we must know the exact date of Jesus’ birth in order to be "biblical." Secondly, it suggests that any celebration or remembrance of "Christmas" is necessarily un-Christian.

In reply to the first issue, historically, no exact date can be affirmed as the day of Christ’s birth.

But the absence of such exactness does not imply that Jesus is "therefore not a historical person." There is ample historical confirmation of the names, events and places concerning the birth, life and ministry of Jesus. Together, these provide proof of His historicity as well as the context for a "historical best guess" concerning the date of His birth.

The absence of an exact date does not, in and of itself, provide sufficient argument against the celebration of Christmas.

As for "pagan" influence, several objections have been raised. Some maintain that Christmas is a "pagan holiday celebrated 2,000 years before the birth of Christ [which] crept into the Christianity of the western world." They add to that, "Your eternal destiny depends on" whether you celebrate Christmas or not.

Others have argued that October 4 was Christ’s real birthday so we should not celebrate on December 25 (the date of his conception, according to one group); that the symbols of Christmas are all pagan; and that nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to celebrate Christ’s birth. Therefore we should not.

So what shall we say?

First, if it is a particular day (December 25, for example) that creates the problem, it is not likely that any day can be found on which some "pagan" isn’t already celebrating something. If a day is rendered "off limits" because a pagan holiday already exists on that date, then there aren’t any days left to celebrate anything!

On the objection that the New Testament nowhere commands a celebration of Christ’s birthday, it is an argument from silence, and this silence is insufficient to justify the objection.

In contrast there is evidence that God condoned and even appointed times of joyful celebration for His people.

Under the heading of "Festivals," Unger’s Bible Dictionary says,

Besides the daily worship, the law prescribed special festivals to be from time to time observed by the congregation. One Hebrew name for festival was hag (from the verb signifying to "dance"), which, when applied to religious services, indicated that they were occasions of joy and gladness. The term most fitly designating, and which alone actually comprehended all the feasts, was mo’ed, (a "set time" or "assembly, place of assembly"). What is meant by this name, therefore, was the stated assemblies of the people—the occasions fixed by the divine appointment for their being called and meeting together in holy fellowship, i.e., for acts and purposes of worship.

The recurring festivals of Israel include a feast at the beginning of each new civil year (Feast of Trumpets) and a yearly remembrance of Israel’s deliverances: from Egypt (Passover), and the deliverance under Queen Esther from Haaman’s treachery (Purim, which means "lots").

A careful check of what the Bible says about Israel’s festivals makes it clear that God intended these times to be joyous. In remembering God’s mighty acts, and in company with God’s people, we have all the occasion we need for a great time.

Back to the point. Not only is the argument that "God nowhere commands it" one from silence, it is also one from ignorance of what God has done and approved among His own people. There is plenty of precedent for celebration. And it is fitting and proper for an event as important as the Incarnation to be remembered by God-fearing people. Any date is fine. No day is in and of itself "good" or "bad," though the time allotted to us can be used for good or bad ends (See Romans 14:5,6). The day is not the issue. Our behavior on any given day is.

Concerning why the Christian Church generally regards December 25 as the day to honor Christ’s birth, it appears historically to be an alternative to a pagan feast. In early Rome, the Feast of Saturnalia (a truly pagan feast dedicated to Saturn, Roman god of planting and harvest. The word "Saturnalia" indicates a licentious feast—Baker’s Dictionary of Religion) was generally held late in December. Gift-giving and general merriment were the order of the holiday. It appears that in response to its secular and pagan tone, the Christian community provided an alternative. God’s faithful used the "time off" for the remembrance of Christ’s birth while their secular neighbors were celebrating on their own.

A modern-day illustration of this last point is found in the alternatives provided by some churches and Christian families to Halloween or Mardi Gras—"pagan" holidays on which activities suited to a Christian confession and lifestyle are substituted.

Again, it is not the day itself that is the problem. It is our use of it. It can be just as wrong for one to refrain from celebrating a holiday but scorn a godly fellow-Christian, as it would be to indulge the flesh as a Christian in "pagan" celebration.

Regarding the symbolism employed at Christmas, care must be taken to be sure whether our present symbols are in fact "pagan" in their content. For example.

It may well be that the Christmas tree, yule log, etc., were at some point "pagan." In our culture, however, they could be more a reflection of, and a sentimental return to, the early pioneer days when without a yule log you would freeze to death.

A tree today may only be a symbol without any "deeper" meaning. To millions of people, the only "meaning" of the tree is the holiday itself. To assign it anything else would be incorrect and/or confusing.

BUT WHAT IF December 25 is in fact a pagan holiday, and all the symbols are pagan, and the gift-giving is more a distraction than a reflection of God’s Gift to us?

First, these facts do not obligate me or any other Christian to be "pagan" at any time. We are each free to choose how we shall remember the Lord’s birth—or even if we shall remember it at all. And whichever we choose, none of us is to be "pagan" either in our choice or in our treatment of those who disagree with us.

Next, and in effect, the "flip-side" of the question: If there is no distinctly "Christian" symbolism in a decorated evergreen, then, though it may be fine to have one in our homes, the least we should do is ask what place, if any, they have in our houses of worship. Some food for thought.

Which brings up the final, and perhaps most important, matter of how to handle a disagreement with another Christian on this subject. Romans 14 gives us some guidelines.

The context (in Romans 14) has to do with disagreements between Christians on issues where Scripture and revelation are not "hard and fast." Special days is one such issue.

First: Romans 14:5,6 leaves room for celebrating Christmas, or Easter, or whatever special day we select. A Christian is free to celebrate or not.

Second: Whatever we do, it is all to be done unto the Lord (unselfishly as an act of worship), and according to the dictates of a Godly conscience. That assumes, of course, that what is done is not contrary to Scripture (see Rom. 14:8).

Third: No brother is to condemn another believer in areas where God does not condemn (see Rom. 14:13a).

Finally: We are not to do anything in such a way as to cause an offense to another believer whose conscience and convictions differ from our own. Note Rom. 14:13b. (Note that this does not prohibit me from celebrating Christmas just because my Christian brother objects. It does prohibit me from celebrating only to show him up or to flaunt my freedom to his harm.)

Paul touches on the matter once more in Colossians 2 where he reminds us that Christ has set us free from the law (law-keeping for merit). Therefore, no believer has the prerogative of judgment over us (Col. 2:16). We must also guard against false spirituality that makes us count ourselves "better" than another because our consciences differ (Col. 2:17).

In conclusion: It is good and proper for the Christian to celebrate the birth of Christ. Each is free to choose the day and manner of his celebration so long as conscience permits and Scripture is not violated. But none of us is free to condemn another where his conscience or convictions differ from our own.

Note: See a companion article on the Mystery Religions for refutation of the charge that Christianity is little more than a copy of these ancient, pagan religions.

Note

1 Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code (New York: Doubleday, 2003), p. 232.

from: http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/historical-Jesus/DaVinci/HJ-davinci-Is-Christmas-Purely-a-Pagan-Holiday.htm

This is an excellent and well balanced article on the subject. Thanks for sharing it.

Scriptural Support Against Celebrating Christmas -- Unacceptable Worship

A. 2 Chron. 33:15-17 -- The Israelites had kept the old pagan form (the high places of Baal), but had merely introduced the worship of God into that form -- a refusal to let go of pagan worship forms (i.e., God was to be worshiped in the Temple, not on the high places). This was unacceptable worship because the right object of worship was mixed with wrong forms of worship; i.e., the mixing of godly worship with ungodly form. Likewise, is not the celebration of Christmas the taking of a celebration established by pagans and for pagans, and then introducing the worship of Christ into that pagan form?

B. Deut. 12:29-32 -- God warned His people Israel to destroy all vestiges of pagan worship that they found in the "Promised Land." Not only did God want to prevent His people from being enticed to worship false gods, but He also specifically revealed that He did not want His people to worship Him in the same manner in which the heathen worshiped their gods. We know, therefore, that our Lord is displeased by practices which profess to honor Him, but which are copied from the tradition of false religions. The command here was to worship God only in His way, i.e., do only what God commands -- not adding to God's commands nor taking away from them. Therefore, is not "putting Christ back into Christmas," worshiping "the Lord your God their way"? Is there any command in the Bible to give special reverence to the Scriptural account of Christ's birth more so than to any other Scripture, let alone even a suggestion to celebrate or commemorate His birth in any way whatsoever? God never intended for His people to be imitators of the pagan customs of the world, but has called us to be separate and set apart.

C. Lev. 10:1,2 -- Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire to the Lord. Is not the celebration of Christmas, with all its pagan symbols and forms, a "strange fire" unto the Lord, and is not this form of worship contrary to what God commands?

D. 1 Sam. 15:1-3, 7-9, 21-23 -- Saul disobeyed God's prophet in order to worship God in his way. Is not the celebration of Christmas one of man's ways of worshiping Christ? There is certainly no Biblical command to offer worship in this manner.

E. 2 Sam. 6:2-7 -- David attempts to transport the ark on a "new cart" instead of using the rings and poles as the Law required (Exo. 25:12-15). Additionally, the "transporters" of the ark were not even authorized to carry it (1 Chron. 15:2, 13-15); i.e., the ark was not only transported in the wrong way, but was transported by the wrong people! Is not the celebration of Christmas the wrong way (pagan forms and tradition) with the wrong people (the heathen of the world join right in with the professing Christians)?

F. 1 Ki. 12:26-33 -- In order to unify the northern ten tribes of Israel, ungodly King Jeroboam set up pagan idols, not in place of God, but as new focal points for directing worship to God. He even instituted a new festival on a new day; i.e., a new religious holiday of his own choosing. Even though the true God of Israel was still to be the object of worship in the new religious holiday, both the holiday and the worship were not authorized by God nor accepted by Him (1 Ki. 13:1-3; 15:29,30). Why? Because the concocted mixture of error with truth constituted false religion! Likewise, is not the celebration of Christmas a religious holiday of man's own choosing, replete with pagan symbols and forms, all under the guise (by sincere Christians at least) of worshiping the one true God and Savior? But does not this worship form and system still constitute false religion, and thereby, make it unacceptable to God? And besides, where in the Bible do Christians have the right to add a new holy day to the so-called Christian calendar, any more than King Jeroboam had the right to add a new holy day to God's theocratic calendar?

G. 1 Cor. 8:4-13; Rom. 14:1-13; 1 Cor. 10:14, 18-21 -- Christian liberty can best be defined Biblically as "the freedom to engage in practices not prohibited by the Scriptures or denying oneself what is permitted (i.e., a moral choice of self-discipline) in order to be a more effective witness for God." So the question must first be answered, "Is Christmas permitted?" Briefly, some claim that Paul is teaching that the participation in pagan forms condemns no one, and therefore, participation in Christmas and its forms, even though arising out of pagan idolatry, is inconsequential. However, Paul nowhere approves participation in acts of idolatry, of which the participation in the pagan forms of Christmas comes dangerously close to doing. Instead, Paul is speaking of the liberty to continue in Jewish days of worship/festival that had been previously ordained under the Jewish law. There is certainly no liberty to bring outside pagan forms into the church's worship services. Likewise, there is no liberty to Christianize Babylonian/Roman pagan holy days as special days.

Christians in the first century churches had the liberty to observe Old Testament holy days and feasts (days that had previously been revealed by God) if they were so immature as to do so. The weaker brother, Paul wrote, was at that time not to be censured for continuing to attach some importance to the Old Testament holy days, as a clear knowledge of their abolition in Christ was not yet given to him (the weaker brother). But to observe a pagan holy day is something this passage does not sanction. They certainly did not have the liberty to regard Babylonian/Roman pagan holy days (days that were invented by the devil) as special days. Again, that would have been idolatry, worldliness, and perhaps even a form of Satan worship on their part. Therefore, how can the observance of Christmas Day, or any other Babylonian/Roman Catholic holy day, be a matter of Christian liberty?

Yet when some of us refuse to regard the pagan holy days as special days, we are the ones often referred to as the "weaker brother" in this matter! Are we opposed to such days because we are "weak in faith"? Faith would be defined as believing what the Word of God says about a matter and acting upon it. It was by faith that we stopped regarding pagan holy days as special days. Would we be more mature Christians if we would start regarding such days again? It would certainly be much easier on us and our families.

Christmas is a thoroughly pagan holiday -- in its origin, in its trappings, and in all its traditions. One way to test the Scripturalness of our practices is to reflect on what we would expect missionaries to teach new converts in a foreign culture. We assume that they would use the Bible as their guide book. If they could start new local churches without importing American culture encumbered with Roman Catholicism, liberal Protestantism, and crass commercialism, wouldn't it be wonderful? Missionaries who have urged new converts to forsake all pagan superstitious relics have later been questioned about the apparent inconsistency of their own American Christmas customs. Nationals perceived them as idolatrous even though the missionaries were oblivious to that possibility!
When Christmas is exposed for what it really is, this angers people. It angers Evangelical Protestant people! And there is reason why it does so. When the pagan celebration of Christmas is rooted up, and rejected, then what has become a Protestant tradition is, in effect, being rejected! And that is why people become angry. It began as a Roman Catholic holy day, and then it became a Protestant holy day. And if anyone dares show it up for what it really is, they face the wrath of the Protestant religious machine. And these days, that can be very ugly.
The very popularity of Christmas should cause the Christian to question it. Anyone and everyone can celebrate Christmas without question -- outright pagans, nominal Christians, and even Buddhists and Hindus. If, in reality, December 25th were a date set by God to remember the birth of Jesus, there is no doubt that the world would have nothing to do with it. After all, God has commanded one day in seven -- the Lord's Day -- to worship Him. Does the world observe it? Of course not.(NOTE: Although I recognize that the "Lord's Day" is not the "Christian Sabbath," clearly the Lord's Day or the first day of the week is the day most christians assemble for worship. Yet when Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, or the day after Christ-mas falls on a Sunday, most churches adjust the Lord's Day to accommodate Christ-mas, usually by cancelling the regularly scheduled Sunday evening service. Most of its members are too busy or too tired to attend services anyway.

American Xmas Traditions -- America's settlers (the "founding fathers" of so-called "Protestant America") rightfully considered Christmas a "popish" holiday. In fact, it was only in the early 1800s that several founding members of the New York Historical Society "invented" Christmas. Before then, it was illegal in colonial Massachusetts to even take December 25th off work. Christmas was forbidden as "unseemly to ye spiritual welfare of ye community." (It was banned in Massachusetts in 1659, and this law remained on the books for 22 years. In Boston, public schools stayed open on December 25th until as late as 1870!) It wasn't until 1836 that any state declared Christmas a holiday (Alabama), and then there were no more state declarations until the Civil War. It was not until 1885 that all federal workers were given Christmas Day off. The so-called Xmas customs and traditions were later concocted more for commercial purposes than for religious.
Henry Ward Beecher, a Congregationalist, wrote in 1874 of his New England boyhood:

"To me Christmas is a foreign day, and I shall die so. When I was a boy I wondered what Christmas was. I knew there was such a time, because we had an Episcopal church in our town, and I saw them dressing it with evergreens, and wondered what they were taking the woods in the church for; but I got no satisfactory explanation. A little later I understood it was a Romish institution, kept by the Romish Church."
As expected, the world loves Christmas, but hates the Lord Jesus Christ (John 15:18, 23-25). It shuns anything pertaining to true religion. Shouldn't the Christian be just a little suspicious of a celebration in which the whole sinful world can join without qualms?

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: [b][color=0033FF]THIS DO[/color][/b] in remembrance of me.

[b][color=0000FF]If you want to give the world a message there is a message![/color][/b]

[b][color=0000FF]Praise the Lord! My husband and I have been able to witness to over a hundred people so far because we do not celebrate Christmas. They have alot of respect for us because they know we are christians with true conviction not willing to compromise in order to feed our flesh. We have been able to share with them how Jesus wanted us to remember Him only in communion and that He gave His own body and blood for us and so much more. Yes, this we will do in remembrance for Him because what else is their that is more worthy of our remembrance! Thank you Lord Jesus![/color][/b]

Christmas is a thoroughly pagan holiday -- in its origin, in its trappings, and in all its traditions.

This is broad general statement that simply does not hold water. I'm not going to debate this issue... just making an observation. If you were to drop the word [b]"all"[/b]... you might be closer to the truth.

Thank the Lord our salvation is not based on whether or not we celebrate the birth of the Savior on December 25th. Altho, at times, when reading the anti-Christmas posts, I wonder if some folks think that it is. That would be legalism, and a works based salvation.

I have no problem with folks who refuse to celebrate Christmas because they do have some very legitimate reasons. Just so long as they dont sit in judgement of brethren that do choose to celebrate it.

Krispy

So what you are saying is that if I celebrate Christmas with my family that I am not a Christian. That my name is not in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Yea... "sister"... lol...(somehow missed that your name is Melissa! Thought you were a dude this whole time!) thats the impression I got from that too.

There seems to be an assumption going on that if a believer celebrates Christmas that they do so by paying homage to Santa Claus, and all the "pagan" things that have to do with Winter Solstice, etc etc...

I think most everyone here realizes that Santa isnt real. If you do believe in Santa, I'm sorry to burst your bubble. Only Christians have an amazing ability to get their shorts in a knot over a fictional character. Anyway, most of us here celebrate the birth of the Savior, and not Santa. Most of us here give gifts because we love the ones we're giving them to. We do it because we want to follow the example of our Father above, who gave us the most precious gift of all... His Son, and the salvation that came to us freely as a result of His suffering, crucifixion and resurrection.

Most of us love to sing the Carols of Christmas, many of which have some amazing theology and straight forwardness. We dont believe in Rudolph The Red Nose Reindeer, and recognize it for the silly song that it is.

And we dont believe that your salvation teeters on whether or not you observe the birth of the Saviour on December 25th or not. If you believe that, then you do not believe in Biblical salvation.

This whole topic reminds me of a thread I started a little while ago concerning the recent influx of people on this forum accusing other brethren of not being Christians if they dont agree with them on various doctrines or practices. No one here has even hinted that one is not saved if they dont observe Christmas, but there has been plenty of intimations that you're not saved or a "true Christian" if you DO celebrate it.

This type of foolish, childish reasoning has no place here. It's another example of how people who are supposed to "love one another" can fight and bicker over anything and everything. I'm not perfect at this either, and at times I have acted foolish and childish on this forum as well. But judging people who choose to celebrate the birth of our Lord and Saviour? That takes the cake.

This type of judgementalism is down right scarey.

When people throw down the "You're not a true Christian if you dont agree with me" card, it tells me that they are not able to intelligently argue their point. (especially when they copy/paste someone else's writings more than they write their own thoughts and beliefs!) It's much like throwing down the "race" card... someone questions Al Sharpton's policies, and they call you a "racist" instead of debating the issues... because they cant. That happens on this forum a lot, and especially this topic of Christmas.

Krispy

If you have ears to hear you will hear...Rob

...and if we end up disagreeing with you then we dont have ears to hear?

Krispy

This isnt meant as sarcasm... I genuinely interested in knowing... should we not celebrate birthdays either? Or the 4th of July? Or Thanksgiving?

Just curious...

Krispy

Is a Christian's Decision to Celebrate Christmas a Part of Christian Liberty?

A. Romans 14:1-13 -- This passage is speaking of Jews who were observing the Old Testament Jewish holy days/festivals and dietary laws even though they were now believers in Christ; but they were also judging their Gentile brothers-in-the-Lord who did not observe the Jewish customs. Likewise, the Gentile Christians were judging their Jewish brothers who were seemingly caught-up in ceremonial law. Paul was thusly saying, "To you Gentile Christians -- leave the Jewish Christians alone, because they are not violating any Scriptural commands by their actions (i.e., it's a "disputable" matter [doubtful or gray area] and not a moral issue). To you Jewish Christians -- it's okay for you to observe the Jewish festivals and dietary laws because they were given by God in the Old Testament, and thereby, are considered to be previously approved worship forms, but don't judge your Gentile brothers, because there is no Biblical command for either of you to continue to observe these things." (Actually, it wasn't "okay" , but Paul allowed it as an act of an immature/weaker brother . If a moral issue is involved (i.e., a practice that is covered in Scripture), then this passage and its application to Christian liberty (i.e., the freedom to engage in practices not prohibited by Scripture) would obviously not apply. And the celebration of Christmas appears to be such a moral issue, because its celebration is not only not from God, but is from ancient paganism itself!

B. 1 Corinthians 8:4-13 -- The Gentile Christians, who had been raised in an idolatrous system, were having a problem with the their Jewish brothers who were eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. (Apparently, this was the only "healthy" meat available.) Similar to the Romans 14 passage above, Paul says that eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols is not a moral issue, and thereby, is not prohibited. However, Paul does not say that it is okay to go into the pagan temple itself; in fact, in other passages (1 Cor 10:14, 18-21), Paul specifically prohibits getting involved with the pagan feasts. In other words, it's not a moral issue to partake in the byproducts of a pagan religious system (note, however, that there is no indication here that the Jewish Christians were using the "idol meat" as part of their worship), but it is not okay to partake in the religious system itself (because the corrupt character of the participants would be harmful for believers). Rather, we must be separate from the worldly system (2 Cor 6:14-7:1). Therefore, when items (byproducts) associated with a pagan religious system not only develop religious associations of their own, but have been integrated into what would otherwise be true Christian worship (as the celebration of Christmas has clearly become in our culture), then we should pull away from them so that there is no confusion over our allegiances.

C. Galatians 4:9-10; Colossians 2:16-17 -- Both these passages of Scripture refer to the Jewish holy days under Old Testament law. If Christians were not even to observe the Old Testament holy days -- days which did have divine sanction, for a time -- they certainly don't have the liberty to observe pagan holy days!

D. James 4:11 -- James is saying that Christians may only judge a brother on matters determined in God's Word (i.e., moral issues). If a matter is not covered in the Word, then these are matters of Christian liberty (á la Rom. 14:1-13 and 1 Cor 8:4-13), and he who judges in these areas of Christian liberty is, in effect, judging and condemning the Word of God as being an imperfect standard to which the judge, thereby, refuses to submit. On the other hand, since we have clear Scriptural precept that condemns the things that go on around December 25th in the name of Christ, the celebration of Christmas does not appear to be a matter of liberty, but one of moral conduct.

Well, Krispy, looks like we'll be on the outside looking in...

I'll bring the ice scraper so we can see thru the windows...

The key, Melissa is this... do you celebrate Christmas unto the Lord? Or your flesh? If you keep Christmas in honor of the One who saved you and created you a-new... then God is honored. If you're like me, Christmas isnt about Santa and cookies and lights etc... It is a wonderful time of worship and honor and thanksgiving. It's a time of love and peace and family.

There are those who want to turn it upside down and make folks like you and I bend to their legalistic ways. Paul dealt with this in scripture when he wrote several churches concerning the Judaizers. Back the the Jewish Christians insisted the gentiles be circumcised and live by the Mosaic Law. Paul came along and said "No! The circumcision is of the heart!"

Fast forward to today... Christians are telling us we must ignore Christmas, we must believe in hyper-Calvinism, we must tithe, we must ... whatever, or we're not saved. It's modern day Judaizers. This IS legalism.

Krispy

Rather than answering in sarcasm to hide your ignorance of this issue you ought to consider the Truth as it is in Jesus as it pertains to this abominable idolatry. When the dentist pulls a tooth it is not a pleasant experience. Nor is it a pleasant experience when our traditions are pulled up by their roots and discovered for what they truly are. I am thankful to many brothers in my past who loved me enough to confront me with the truth regarding my doctrines and practices. This(christ-mass)being just one of those I had erroneously and ignorantly held to. I don't remember letting go of any of these with so much ease as I did when I grabbed a hot iron one time. My pride still raises its ugly head at times and thankfully God has appointed me with some persons in my life who place the mirror before me. If I ever succeed at keeping the First Commandment it certainly won't be anything I can boast of. It is He who keeps me. Is there anything I desire to keep from Him? He knows! Worship God

You use the word legalistic and legalism quite freely. Do you know how to differentiate between legalism,antinomianism,and obedience? Your application of the scriptures to this issue are so very far off. Liberty and license is the cry of the multitudes who desire a crown without a cross and a resurrection without a crucifixion.Worship God

Rather than answering in sarcasm to hide your ignorance of this issue you ought to consider the Truth as it is in Jesus as it pertains to this abominable idolatry.

I'm not sure... but I dont think I've ever referred to another brother or sister as "ignorant" on this forum before.

Exactly how is that encouraging or edifying?

And trust me, I havent been sarcastic toward you. Every word I've written is very serious.

Krispy

You use the word legalistic and legalism quite freely.

You are new here, so I will attribute your comment to simply not knowing what you're talking about.

Do you know how to differentiate between legalism,antinomianism,and obedience?

Uhh.. yea, and have written quite a bit about this topic over the years. You would do well to search the archives. I wish I had a dime for every person who has come and gone on this thread... and accused ME of being a legalist.

Your application of the scriptures to this issue are so very far off.

Really? Please feel free to show me... quote me... etc.

Liberty and license is the cry of the multitudes who desire a crown without a cross and a resurrection without a crucifixion.

Again... you dont know anything me, and obviously havent spent much time reading any of the almost 5,000 posts I've made on this forum. Please avail yourself of the archived thread and read for yourself that what you are accusing me of is simply not true.

It's always amazing to me how folks can come to a forum like this and begin making pronouncments about brethren without knowing a single thing about them. It's foolishness, and it's dangerous.

Krispy

Read the quote as it stands rather than reading into it an offensiveness which is not present,"ignorance of this issue". The Word of God is not only for encouraging and edifying but, "ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS: THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS" 2 Timothy 3:16,17.

But you, sir, are not in a position to reproove me, or correct me since you know nothing about me. Therefore, I do reject your reproofs because they are baseless.

If Rahman, or Mike or someone like that on this forum offered a reproof I would sit up and take it seriously. (and they have! and I did!)

But you dont know me from Adam. You accuse me of wanting a resurrection w/out a cross, and whatever else it was that you said... how can you say that just because someone celebrates Christmas?

That is unscriptural judgement, my brother. You are wrong.

I'm not even going to argue this with you any further. It's a waste of time.

Merry Christmas!

Krispy

You are betarying here the pride which resides in us all. I am sure others detect it as well even if they will not say so. I believe that what is on this thread alone regarding this thing is evidence enough to reveal the mind of God from His own Word as to the abominable idolatry associated with this invention of the dark recesses of carnal men's minds. As you suggested I read your archives,I suggest you read thru the posts here again. Worship God

Ray... I've never met a legalist who thought they were a legalist.

My words are not in pride simply because I say you are not in a position to reproove me. It's simply a fact. Somehow I doubt you've gone thru and read 3 years of posts.

You may ask any number of brothers on this site... I am very much open to correction. I've had to come on here publicly and apologize many times. But what I wont accept is someone just showing up here and accusing my brothers and sisters on here of being pagan heathens when the accusation is unfounded. You can say whatever you want about me... I dont really care. But what really gets my dander up is when you accuse the brethren here. We may argue with each other... but when you make such outlandish statements aimed at my brothers and sisters, that gets my dander up.

We all, at some point, want to be that firey prophet who tells off all of God's people. I get that way at times... so I'm not just pointing a finger at you.

Krispy

I said I wouldnt argue this anymore... so I wont. Ray, if you need to get a last word in... go ahead. But I'm done.

Krispy

Your causeless anger is detected here as well. I myself am doing none of the above(i.e.,reproving,correcting),and even if I were it ought to be heeded if I were a mule(I can assure you I'm not). The verse I quoted begins with,"All Scripture". God's Word ought to penetrate the thoughts and intents of our hearts. Nor do I accuse you as an individual as being in the number who cry out "Liberty and License" or one who desires a crown without a cross or a resurrection without a crucifixion. This is just the truth re: so many. I must wonder why you are getting the impressions that you are. May we all grow in grace and in the knowledge of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ. Worship God

Many years ago, I was offered a coffee in a mug which had a sign of the zodiac on it. I declined, asking for a mug which was free of such a sign, thinking this was a good spiritual move in the presence of other Christians. The German sister who had offered it to me looked perplexed; 'Give it to me' she said. 'I'm [i]free[/i] from all that.' By this object lesson I learned something about true spiritual freedom I had not understood. I still didn't have it for my own, but I realised it's a matter of the heart which God sees, when we are in fellowship with other Christians.

Do non-Christians think they are celebrating a pagan festival? Perhaps some do. But for those who don't [i]know[/i] the externals are pagan in origin, who [i]acknowlege[/i] Christ's birth in this conscious way, is not God looking on their hearts also, longing to draw them closer?

Your causeless anger is detected here as well. I myself am doing none of the above(i.e.,reproving,correcting),and even if I were it ought to be heeded if I were a mule(I can assure you I'm not). The verse I quoted begins with,"All Scripture". God's Word ought to penetrate the thoughts and intents of our hearts. Nor do I accuse you as an individual as being in the number who cry out "Liberty and License" or one who desires a crown without a cross or a resurrection without a crucifixion. This is just the truth re: so many. I must wonder why you are getting the impressions that you are. May we all grow in grace and in the knowledge of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ. Worship God

Merry Christmas, Ray...

Krispy

Many years ago, I was offered a coffee in a mug which had a sign of the zodiac on it. I declined, asking for a mug which was free of such a sign, thinking this was a good spiritual move in the presence of other Christians. The German sister who had offered it to me looked perplexed; 'Give it to me' she said. 'I'm free from all that.' By this object lesson I learned something about true spiritual freedom I had not understood. I still didn't have it for my own, but I realised it's a matter of the heart which God sees, when we are in fellowship with other Christians.

Do non-Christians think they are celebrating a pagan festival? Perhaps some do. But for those who don't know the externals are pagan in origin, who acknowlege Christ's birth in this conscious way, is not God looking on their hearts also, longing to draw them closer?

Sister... I think that is perhaps the best and most profound post on the entire Christmas "debate" yet. You are so very right. You said in two simple paragraphs what I have tried to say over the last 3 or 4 days.

We are free in Christ.

Krispy

Ray... I apologize for getting rangled at you. I cant say that I was mad, but more irritated. And I should have just left it alone, but you are correct about one thing... I let my pride jump up.

It does get distressing around when folks pop up and begin throwing down firey condemnation on the brethren that are here, especially when it's someone who hasnt been around here long. It takes a looong time to get to understand people here, and we can not look at one discussion on this forum and come to any conclusions about anyone here.

But at the same time, I should not return tit-for-tat. The reason I picked up so quickly on this was because I truly am concerned for and love the brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum, and it hurts to see saints who I know are living and working and striving to walk deeper with the Lord being accused of not being "true Christians" because they may not subscribe to someones pet doctrine or practice.

And yes, it's distressing when I am accused of the same thing when I know I am walking rightly before the Lord... not under my own abilities, but by His grace and strength. People who know me in real life, and are apart of the fellowship that meets in our home get a laugh out of everytime someone accuses me of being "liberal", or "carnal Christian".

And whats funny to me is that some folks come here and call me a legalist... and call me judgemental... and then others come on here and tell me they are praying that I get saved some day because I'm not as legalistic as they are!

Good grief... it's a wonder I'm still sane.

But none the less, I should not have responded to you the way I did. I do apologize and ask you to forgive me. I'm trying to treat everyone here with love and respect because it truly is how I feel about everyone here. Even those who I usually find myself in disagreement with.

Nothing you've said has changed my mind. I respect and admire your zeal and desire to serve God, even by ignoring Christmas. As I said... it doesnt make you saved or unsaved.

I still think you're wrong to come here and accuse people of not being saved if they celebrate Christmas. If this were true, then it would be a legalistic works based salvation that you are promoting. In fact, many of the arguments you present are straight out of the JW's hand book.

Now, having said all that, I will not debate this issue any further. We are celebrating the birth of Christ, we will do it unto the Lord... and we will do it with joy in our hearts... living the abundant life that has been given to us thru the salvation of Jesus Christ. Amen!

Krispy

I heard recently that Christmas and Michealmas is the same. What is Michealmas?

I know I could easily use the internet to scour together the info, but if someone has all the facts together, I'd rather just see what you have to say.

Avoid the Rationalizations that:

1. "Christmas Provides a Festive Time to Share the Gospel" -- One ought not take something condemned in God's Word and "use it" to spread the Gospel. Unacceptable worship and the "mixing-in" of unholy/pagan forms is surely not the normal means through which God blesses the faithful. Satan works to blend together his system with God's system, because when unacceptable worship (paganism) is blended with true worship (God's truth), true worship is destroyed. In fact, any time one mixes pagan ideas and practices with the pure religion of Christ, it is condemned in Scripture as the heinous sin of idolatry! God has always detested taking those things dedicated to idols and using them to worship Him. As a matter of fact, this "special time of the year" is probably more a hindrance to the receptiveness of the gospel message than a help. Much of the celebration observed by our contemporary society deludes people into assuming that God is pleased, when in reality, He is offended by false religion, pseudo-worship, and alien philosophies. The ecumenical spirit and a counterfeit "love" under the guise of "peace and goodwill among men," more than likely dulls one's sensitivity to his desperate need to repent of sin and be reconciled to a holy God.

2. "Christmas is Merely the Honoring of Christ's Birth" -- Someone says, "I know Christmas is of pagan origin, but I still think it's not wrong for us to have a special time for honoring Christ's birth." But since when did true believers believe that Christians have the right to add to the Bible? Is the church a legislative body? Are we to follow the Bible in our faith and practice, or the thinking of fallible men? If we have the right to add a special holy day to the Christian economy, then we can add 10,000 other things. Then we will be no better than the false cults and the Roman Catholics who follow heathen traditions! [Besides, celebrating Christ's birth is a form of worship. But since Christmas is a lie, those who celebrate it are not worshiping in "spirit and truth" (John 4:24).]

3. "All I'm Doing is Putting Christ Back into Christmas" -- The modern conservative cry to put Christ back into Christmas is absurd. Jesus Christ was never in Christmas. It's a lie to say He was. He has no part in a lie. When anyone takes the truth and mixes it with a lie, they no longer have the truth. They have changed the truth into a lie. Neither is it possible to take a lie and mix it with enough truth to change the lie into the truth. You still come out with a lie. One may say, "Well, I know it's not the truth, but I'll put Christ back in Christmas and glorify God in it then." No, you won't. Christ never was in Christmas. You cannot change a lie into the truth. It should in reality be called Baal-mass, Nimrod-mass, Tammuz-mass, Mithras-mass, or Mary-mass. Christ-mass is a lie. Why use a lie as a good time for a cardinal truth (the incarnation) of the Christian faith?

4. "I'm Using Christmas to Witness for Christ, Just Like the Apostle Paul Did" -- Some say that all they are doing is taking the "truth" from Christmas (i.e., the incarnation of Christ) and "cultivating" it as the Apostle Paul did (Acts 17/Mars Hill), taking the opportunity of the season to witness to a lost world. This would be fine if these Christians were actually doing only as Paul did. Paul, in addressing the Greek philosophers on Mars Hill, proclaimed to them that their "unknown god" to whom they had erected an altar, was none other than "the God who made the world and all the things therein." Paul was not intimidated by the pagan surroundings and symbolisms, nor did he berate the Greeks for their error, but merely showed them the truth of the gospel of Christ.

But do Christians really use the "opportunity presented by the season" in the same way as Paul used the opportunity of the pagan altar? Do Christians personally stand in front of their hometown public displays of Xmas (Nativity scenes, etc.) and preach the gospel? To paraphrase Paul, do they say: "Men of Indianapolis, I see that in every way you are very religious; what you worship as something unknown, I am going to proclaim to you"? Do they come out of the public schools, where they have just attended their children's Xmas programs, and preach to the attendees about the true God who has been grossly misrepresented in the program they have just witnessed?

Hardly. Even to most of those who understand the true origin of Xmas, this "unique time of year" means inviting unbelievers into their homes to gather around the Xmas tree, to enjoy the beauty of the wreaths, absorb the heat from the Yule log, etc., reasoning that they are only using the pagan forms and the pagan festival season as an opportunity to witness. If Paul meant this in Acts 17, he would have met the people in the Athenian temple or in his or their homes, gathering around their idols that he had Christianized and was now using as a part of his worship. Most of the people who decorate their homes and churches with Xmas trees, holly wreaths, Nativity scenes, etc., all supposedly to be used as "opportunities" via "Xmas coffees," neighborhood "grab bag" gift exchanges, Xmas concerts, etc., are thoroughly convinced that they're doing God a service. And since they are not involved in the crass secular "commercialization" that the world revels in, but have instead "put Christ back in Xmas" (so to speak), they reason that all is Biblical and pleasing to God.

5. "It Doesn't Mean Anything to Me" -- Many Christians who routinely make a habit of picking-and-choosing which Biblical commands they will or will not obey, have likewise carried this practice over into a justification for celebrating Christmas. They claim, "but the Christmas tree, mistletoe, Santa Claus, etc., don't mean anything pagan to me, so I'll exercise my Christian liberty and partake in all of it." Obviously, if one were to take such a cavalier approach to the physical world (i.e., "I can drink rat poison because I choose not to regard it as poison"), it would likely lead to a quick physical death. Why, then, do Christians think they can avoid spiritual harm by ignoring God's spiritual warnings?

6. "The 'Connection' Has Been Broken" -- There are those who clearly recognize the pagan nature of the various Christmas worship forms and practices. Nevertheless, many of these Christians claim that because of the long passage of time from their pagan inception to the present (6,000 years?), the "connection" to paganism has been sufficiently diminished to allow the adoption of these forms and practices into our Christian worship and celebration. While it may be true that most symbols have lost their original demonic meaning and significance in a modern society, it is strangely bizarre and ironic that Christendom seeks to commemorate Christ's birth with the faded symbols of Satan. And even though some of God's people may be naive and ignorant about the source of these things, surely God is not. Can such things please Him? And think about this -- if it were possible to "disconnect" current practices from their pagan/occultic roots, why does Scripture not provide us any guidelines as to:

(a) how much time is necessary for the "neutralization"/disassociation process to occur; and
(b) which of the hundreds of ancient pagan rites would then be acceptable for adaptation into Christian worship (since some are obviously much more pagan/occultic than others)?

7. "There Are Hundreds of Other Items of Daily Life that Have a Pagan Origin" -- It is said, "Such things as the wedding ring, certain clothing customs, the modern division of time into hours and minutes, the names of the days of the week, etc., all have pagan connections in their origins, so isn't it a contradiction on your part to say that their meanings have sufficiently changed while Christmas's meanings have not?" I am not saying that their meanings have changed. The question is one of using things of pagan origin in our worship of Christ. So we would ask the question back, "Which of these pagan items do we focus on to celebrate the birth of Christ? Or which of these is 'Christianized' and brought into our weekly worship of, or our daily devotion to Christ, as you do with the pagan forms and traditions of Xmas?" The origin and meaning of a custom, tradition, or form does not take on significance unless it is somehow specifically incorporated into, or lined up with, our worship. All these would be merely the byproducts of paganism, not paganism itself, and they have developed no religious connotations or associations of their own, as have the Xmas customs and traditions.

The matter of the heart is a very poor argument because "He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but whoever walks wisely will be delivered." (Prov. 28:26)

An airplane pilot is not to trust his own instincts in a storm, but to trust the instrument panel. Instincts can be wrong if he experiences vertigo. Just as a pilot can get so jostled around that he loses his sense of up and down, we can get so jostled around by the philosophy of this world that we lose our sense of right and wrong. We have an instrument panel that is more reliable than our own hearts and feelings,the very Word of God itself which I know none here would deny.

The Psalmist said, "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path." (Psalm 119:105) Again, "Through Your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way." (Psalm 119:104)

Krispy said, "I still think you're wrong to come here and accuse people of not being saved if they celebrate Christmas. If this were true, then it would be a legalistic works based salvation that you are promoting. In fact, many of the arguments you present are straight out of the JW's hand book".
Show me: 1) where I accuse anyone here of not being saved or 2) where I am promoting a works based salvation or 3) where I have exhibited a spirit that is calling down fiery condemnation on any. If I agree on some points with JW's so be it,I also agree with Roman Catholicism on some points as well. I believe that both of these religions are not of the faith of God's elect as Paul writes to Titus, "Paul a servant of God, and an Apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the Faith of Gods Elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness (Titus 1:1).

Is that all you have to say! Am I under arrest? RayinPA

How about yourself Mike, are you prepared to take the admonition of John 5:21, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols Amen", and at the least tell others to do so(re:Christ-mass)? If these words sound challenging or otherwise I can only say that I have been challenged numerous times and look forward to more. For so I grow. "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend".(KJV) "Iron by iron is sharpened, And a man sharpens the face of his friend".(YLT) "Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another".(NASB)

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