The Emerging Merger

[b]From e-sword's Websters: Emergent
EMERG'ENT, a. Rising out of a fluid or any thing that covers or surrounds.

The mountains huge appear emergent.

1. Issuing or proceeding from.

2. Rising out of a depressed state or from obscurity.

3. Coming suddenly; sudden; casual; unexpected; hence,calling for immediate action or remedy; urgent; pressing; as an emergent occasion.

[u]Emerging Church Definitions and Links at bottom of encyclopedia page.[/u][/b]

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Emerging+Church

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Frank Viola wrote: "My friends [u]Andrew Jones and Brian McLaren[/u] have written about something they call "deep ecclesiology." This phrase appears to be derived from Noam Chomsky’s linguistic theory of "deep semantics." Chomsky said that underlying the "surface structures" of the statements we make there lies a deeper and simpler structure that is ingrained in the human capacity for language."

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Excerpts:

[b]Leadership Network Launched the Emerging Church Movement![/b]

Many think that the Emerging Church movement was started by a bunch of young people who wanted a hip atmosphere at church ... not so at all.

According to an article in the recent edition of Criswell Theological Review,written by Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill, it was the Leadership Network that initiated the Emerging Church movement. Driscoll states:

[i]In the mid-1990s I was a young church planter trying to establish a church in the city of Seattle when I got a call to speak at my first conference. It was hosted by Leadership Network and focused on the subject of Generation X. ... Out of that conference a small team was formed to continue conversing about postmodernism ...

By this time Leadership Network hired Doug Pagitt to lead the team and organize the events. He began growing the team and it soon included [u]Brian McLaren[/u]. Pagitt, McLaren, and others such as Chris Seay, Tony Jones, Dan Kimball, and [u]Andrew Jones[/u] stayed together and continued speaking and writing together as friends....

McLaren, a very gifted writer, rose to team leader in part because he had an established family and church, which allowed him to devote a lot of time to the team. That team eventually morphed into what is now known as Emergent. (Mark Driscoll, "A Pastoral Perspective on the Emerging Church")[/i]

Incidentally, in Driscoll's article about the emerging church, he left out the one element that counts the most - the emerging church's affinity with contemplative spirituality. As I have often said, remove contemplative from emerging and all you have left is coffee, couches and candles.

It is more than significant to understand the implications that Leadership Network actually launched the Emerging Church. To understand just how pervasive the connections are, it is necessary to take a look at CCN (Church Communications Network which is an Innovation Series of Leadership Network). CCN carries most of today's top Christian leaders including James Dobson, Nicky Gumbel (creator of the Alpha course) Richard Foster (a speaker for the Be Still CCN conference), various Saddleback pastors, including Rick Warren, Bob Buford (founder of Leadership Network) and the list goes on and includes several emerging leaders such as McLaren, Leonard Sweet and Erwin McManus. The point is that while many are saying they do not agree with the emerging church and what it stands for, some of these same so called critics have been behind it all along.

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/researchtopics.htm#E

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[i]"Frankly, many of us don't know what we should think about homosexuality. We've heard all sides, but no position has yet won our confidence so that we can say "it seems good to the Holy Spirit and us."... If we think that there may actually be a legitimate context for some homosexual relationships, we know that the biblical arguments are nuanced and multi layered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex." [/i] Brian McLaren

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/ingrid/emerging.htm (from http://sliceoflaodicea.com )

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[b]The Emerging (Global) Church[/b]

Emerging Church groups have typically contained some or all of the following elements:
Highly creative approaches to worship and spiritual reflection. This can involve everything from the use of contemporary music and films through to liturgy or other more ancient customs. ...

A flexible approach to theology whereby individual differences in belief and morality are accepted within reason.

A more holistic approach to the role of the church in society. This can mean anything from greater emphasis on fellowship in the structure of the group to a higher degree of emphasis on social action, community building or Christian outreach.

A desire to reanalyse the Bible against the context into which it was written...."

Peter Drucker:[i] "Every few hundred years in Western history there occurs a sharp transformation.... Within a few short decades, society rearranges itself -- it's worldview; its basic values: its social and political structures; its arts; its key institutions. Fifty years later, there is a new world. And the people born then cannot even imagine the world in which their grandparents lived.... We are currently living through just such a transformation. It is creating the post-capitalist society.... " The Post Capitalist Society, 1993; page 1.[/i]

http://www.crossroad.to/News/Church/emergent.html

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[i]"'The kingdom of God is available to all. Believe this good news! The empire of God is now available to all!'

"The kingdom of God, the empire of God? What could Jesus mean by this? One thing is sure: he did not mean what many - perhaps most - people today think he meant.[u] He did not mean 'heaven after you die.'[/u] Maybe the meaning would be clearer if we paraphrased it like this: 'You're all preoccupied with the oppressive empire of Caesar and the oppressed kingdom of Israel. You're missing the point: the kingdom of God is here now, available to all! This is the reality that matters most. Believe this good news and follow me!'"[/i] (Ibid, p. 14) [emphasis added]

On page 18 McLaren refers to this as a "revolutionary political agenda."

http://www.rethinkconference.com/content/blogcategory/3/14/

The fact that Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral is hosting this Rethink conference is particularly relevant in light of his close association with Rick Warren, a relationship discussed in detail in Warren Smith's book Deceived On Purpose. Kay Warren is one of the "Leading Inflencers" invited to make a presentation at the conference. Note that many Emergent/Emerging church leaders, such as Erwin McManus (quoted above) are also presenting.

http://herescope.blogspot.com/2007/10/rethinking-and-reinventing.html

Bill Gates - funding Rick Warren's Global P.E.A.C.E. Plan, plus.

http://wall.willowcreek.com/c/blogs/leadership/default.aspx

[b]A Call To Repentance[/b]
Dave Hunt November 2006 Newsletter

http://www.thebereancall.net/podcast/nov06.pdf

[b]Roger Oakland on - How to Know When the Emerging Church
Shows Signs of Emerging in Your Church[/b]

http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c54.shtml

Thanks for the warning, sis.

The trouble is that there is nothing wrong with the desire to be more flexible and re-evaluate how one "does church" (I hate that expression but can't think of a better one offhand). So many of us are no doubt tired of dead, traditional ways of "worship", where the tradition has gradually taken over the life and fossilised the church. (Like a lobster, it has to change its shell now and again or it will cease to grow and will eventually die.)

The real problem seems to be that the re-evaluation doesn't stop at outward, non-essential church customs, such as form of service, music, when or if a collection is taken, or the kind of bread and wine used at communion.

It's when the re-evaluation turns to throwing out or redefining our essential [i]beliefs[/i] we have a problem.

And it's a very very big problem.

In Him

Jeannette

Sis, there's been a rumbling in me for some time and it's increased considerably, but there are very few avenues of 'release'.
Approx. 2 years or more ago, when posting about the Emergent Church, I felt the first of the smaller quakes, but this time - tears came into my eyes. Sis - this is [i]it[/i].

This is the whore that rides the beast - not future tense - present tense - and she's been for some time now. The rider "directs". (though the beast turns on her, in the end.)

While most are looking for catatrophic events - this is slipping by without much notice.

Those Christ haters who make global decisions, will allow all the rumblings and prophecies of war or disasters to distract from this that is and has been forming - right under our noses and we've blown it all off as just some "purpose driven" thing.

It's gone way Far Beyond that. This with the CNP and Rome.

WE are in Babylon. The religion and politics of the United States is Babylon and the people don't even know it. The Word of God said that her people wouldn't even know.
All that is happening now, is not for Israel's favor, but to set it up as the International City where they plan to seat [i]their[/i] "Christ", who's waiting in the wings now.

The [i]spiritual[/i] cloud is over us already, but it's crept in slow enough and kept us distracted, that most are not even choked by it. Some feel just an uneasiness, but brush it off.

Sis, another spirit is operating to distract the majority who think they are on the right path. Jesus warned, the only thing that Would Increase, are false prophets and false teachers and false signs and wonders - but "the most" will fall away from the Truth. That's what Jesus Said. The rest will mock these false prophets as they mocked the y2k people in the end. The purpose for false prophecies is for that reason exactly - to discredit God's Word to the world.
This cloud that is covering this nation has blurred their view of the Real path - the True Jesus Christ - The Logos.
Each man forms his own view of what his "Jesus" is like and what his Jesus requires of him and others.
We need a Holy fear - and not a legalist's fear. There is a very major difference as we read in Galatians. One will save you - the other damn you.

It's not bombs we need to fear - or even the economic crash that's coming - but we do need to understand the present & coming "deception" and study it and learn about it and know it's every move, so we can save others from it.
It's creeping like a beast across this Country and spreading out to countries that are impoverished first.

All in the name of "good works".

Back in June, I knew the "Something Horrible" was the "strong delusion" being loosed.

It's just as strong on me now as it was the night it threw me out of bed and I posted it here to pastorfrin's thread on Devotional thoughts.

We need to seek HIM with all that we have, even if it means fasting and doing without quite a bit.
We need to cry out that HE not allow us to be sucked into this delusion and pray with our very lives, that we not be deceived. We're just too comfortable to think on these things. We haven't much time left before this delusion becomes "effectual". That is what "strong" means in the Greek and when God sends something that HE calls "effectual", then you know it is.

Again, our fears are not of bombs or money - they should be the fear of this DELUSION that GOD sends, "because they had not the Agape (Unconditional Love) for the True Truth."

Studying the above, is just the tip of the iceberg. I tried very hard to keep that post as short as I could.

On the link from "lighthousetrailsresearch" -- strongly recommend that folks tap into that site and watch this "contemplative spirituality" very closely.

There are many tenticles to this Emergent/Convergent's deception, that are creeping into almost every group/church.

I'd study those tenticles as much as possible.

That's the only "prophecy" I feel led to share.

We need to get to where we are not those who God spoke of, when He said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee.."

2 Thess 2:10,11 is on us. It is part of that cloud that's spreading. The only prophecy that my spirit has born witness to, since I've been on the internet, has been A.A. Allen's. But I think the "cloud" that choked them all to death was spiritual and a spiritual death.
It took out the statue of "Liberty" first while she was in the gulf of Mexico.
When we O.K.ed TORTURE - just for one - we choked what she represented to death. She's an empty shell now and a joke to most other nations.
We don't even see what is really going in our own country, nonetheless the world. We're so blinded by this cloud, I can't understand how we are so silent over those who are starving, etc. etc., here and around the globe - but these Emergent folks have got it going now, with the help of the one-world people and are joining ranks in the name of feeding the hungry, stopping torture, and all the things we should have been doing.
No wonder how eventually, they will be killing us, thinking they are doing God a service, because of all their "righteous" works.

Babylon's destruction doesn't come until later.
When they are saying "Peace, Peace."

But first this one world religion and "governance" - when the 'most' will go along with it, because God gave them over to believe the lie - as it is written. Yes, an attack to bring us down to a one-world economic level is coming - but the strong delusion is here already, but many are still in the valley of decision and will be until they either take the mark or are killed as one of the faithful or survive until He comes, as one of the faithful.

Chris is right, in that any "outside" attacks, won't cause them to repent - but those days that come after that, are to refine the Saints and for those who were prepared for this coming period of darkness, with full lamps and extra oil, to do exploits, when the beast reigns, in the time of the deepest spiritual darkness that this world has ever seen. Bombs would be a relief to some.

Like Corrie Ten Boon said, Feed on The Word of God. The Word of Life!

John 16:13 [i]is[/i] for His Elect - as well as, "the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy" is for all of His, that love not their lives unto death.

Hi Ian. Haven't seen you for a while.

I guess, the only place I can agree with you is on your last line about "not arguing" and to preach a Gospel that's Biblical.

It only takes a few drops of poison in a gallon of juice to kill.

I have/had no plans to argue. But I do plan to go off-line again, in a week. Probably for good this time.
That's what I felt the Lord tell me, day before yesterday.

All His Best.
With His Love.

Annie

HE_Reigns wrote:
Hi Ian. Haven't seen you for a while.

I guess, the only place I can agree with you is on your last line about "not arguing" and to preach a Gospel that's Biblical.

It only takes a few drops of poison in a gallon of juice to kill.

2Ki 4:41
[color=990000] But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast it into the pot; and he said, Pour out for the people, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.[/color]

Just remembered that it was some careless ass of a prophet who put the poison in the pot by mistake...

Mmmmm...

Annie, you're not going [i]again[/i]!!!? :-(

The world as we know it.

A growing number of well-known evangelical leaders today are teaching thousands of people that the world has a serious problem. The problem they describe is not what you might expect to hear, especially from evangelical leaders. They believe that those who claim Jesus is coming back soon and that the Earth will face a horrible Armageddon or judgment are actually the cause of the world's major problems and are prohibiting a time of great renewal from taking place. Talk of biblical end-time prophecy is considered by these men to be unnecessary and downright dangerous.

Tony Campolo in his recent book, Speaking My Mind suggests that these types of end-time thinkers are even the cause of wars. He says, "Their doctrines are a major factor in determining a far-ranging set of consequences that include American policies regarding militarism, the emergence of evangelical Zionism, attitudes toward Palestinians and the role of American geopolitics." (p. 207) He later says their "impact on geopolitics can only lead to war." (p. 215).

Rick Warren suggests that Jesus doesn't want us to even think about prophecy or His return. Warren tells us that it is none of our business. He tells us that thinking about Jesus' return is a ploy by Satan to get us distracted. (PDL, pp. 285, 286)

Richard Abanes, author and speaker, in his book End-Time Visions: The Road to Armageddon, criticizes many Christians who believe we should discuss prophecy and that there is indeed a coming Armageddon. He puts solid, Bible-based Christian leaders in the same category as cult leaders such as David Koresh, who led his group to an untimely end.

Are these evangelicals the first ones to hate the idea of Armageddon and the disaster that is coming to the world before Christ returns? In the book, Reinventing Jesus Christ, he quotes Barbara Marx Hubbard who says that those who believe in an Armageddon are self-centered people who if not stopped will actually cause a self-fullfilling prophecy to take place - the destruction of the world.

Marx Hubbard tells us of a global peace plan and she calls it an "Armageddon alternative." This alternative can actually save the world from Armageddon, she says, but only if enough people believe it and only if the world can be rid of these self-centered doomsdayers. "The species known as self-centered humanity will become extinct. The species known as whole-centered humanity will evolve.... Those who choose this version of the future will be there. Those who do not choose it will not be there." Marx Hubbard's own book of "Revelation" describes a message she received from the "Christ": "You are to prepare the way for the alternative to Armageddon, which is the Planetary Pentecost, the great Instant of Co-operation which can transform enough, en masse, to avoid the necessity of the seventh seal being broken." She continues: "Tell them to recognize the God within themselves, and to follow that light through the darkness of tribulations to the dawn of the Universal Age, when only the God-conscious continue to exist, and everyone is like Christ. Those with the seal of the living God on their foreheads will be with Christ at the time of the Transformation. I cannot 'return' until enough of you are attracted and linked."

According to Marx Hubbard it is these self-centered believers that are standing in the way. And yet in the book of Revelation, in the last chapter, Jesus says not once but three times, "I am coming quickly," while John in the same chapter tells us not to seal the words of the prophecy because the time is at hand."

In Reinventing Jesus Christ, he quotes Alice Bailey who was "told by her spirit guide over fifty years ago that the 'Forces of Darkness' would oppose the 'new gospel' and the 'New Age.' Is this new gospel and Transformation one and the same as Brian McLaren's New Kind of Christian and Emerging Church? Is it the same as Rick Warren's spiritual awakening and global Transformation? With so many similarities, one can only surmise that they may indeed be so. And if that is the case, will there be a growing hostility and anger towards those of us who say, Maranatha, come quickly Lord Jesus? (I Corinthians 16:22)

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/worldasweknowit.htm

Barbara Marx Hubbard, author of Emergence: The Shift from Ego to Essence, and a present day mystic, publicly despises Bible- believing Christians and believes we are coming into a time period of the emerging human who finally recognizes his own Divinity.

She states: "You and I are sitting at the hub of the emerging world.... now actually evolving our human species and our world itself.... we are living through an evolutionary crisis, a crisis of the birth of something new. It is vital now that what is emerging converges, ... so that as the structures in the old system destabilize, elements of the emerging system self-organize as the new culture cocreated by a more conscious and empathetic humanity." Interview with B.M.H.

The ancient wisdom and the emerging human that McLaren and other emerging church leaders are seeking is none other than the emerging spirituality that Barbara Marx Hubbard, Thomas Keating and other New Agers practice and promote. McLaren and these "Christian" leaders will be greatly disappointed in the end and will lead thousands, possibly millions, astray. These concepts date back long before this "new" emerging church movement began.

Barbara Marx Hubbard and Brian McLaren are wrong when they teach that we as humans are emerging into something great and much better than where we are presently at. The Bible says there is nothing new under the sun. While "Christian" emergers think they are onto something totally different, totally unique, they will find that they are walking right into a trap, a trap that will hinder them from running into the arms of the only Savior and hope for man.

Deborah Dombrowski
Lighthouse Trails Publishing

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/brianmclaren.htm

Quotes from Barbara Marx Hubbard:

"The second purpose of these writings is to call for the completion of the good news concerning the transformation of the world."
—Barbara Marx Hubbard, The Revelation, p. 74

"The alternative to Armageddon is open to you. This is why we are writing this text."
—Barbara Marx Hubbard, The Revelation, p. 264

"I did not suffer on the cross and rise again on the third day to show you what I could do, but what you can do. Yours is the power. Yours is the glory. That is my message to you!"
—Barbara Marx Hubbard, The Revelation, p. 100

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/marxhubbard.htm

[b]Hostile Sentiment Toward "End-Time" Believing Christians - by Roger Oakland[/b]

If you haven't already noticed, anti-Christian sentiment is growing toward those who believe in a biblical last days/Book of Revelation scenario prior to Christ's return. A 2005 article titled "Lutheran leader calls for an ecumenical council to address growing biblical fundamentalism" should help convince you. The article shows not only this growing resentment towards Bible-believing Christians but also the interspiritual path this change in attitude is taking:

"The leader of the nation's largest Lutheran denomination has called for a global Christian council to address an "identity crisis" on how churches interpret and understand the Bible. Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America ... called for Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran churches to come together to combat a fundamentalist-millenialist-apocalypticist reading of Scripture."1

Hanson's request for a group to monitor and expose anti-ecumenists who take the Bible literally carries some weight! His message contains other statements showing his concern about Bible literalists--particularly those who take Bible prophecy seriously and see Israel and the Middle East crisis as an end-times sign post. The article continues:

"[M]ainline churches traditionally are uneasy with literal readings of Scripture, particularly in fundamentalist churches, regarding the end of the world and political unrest in the Middle East. In addition, mainline churches have been divided over what the Bible says about hot-button issues such as homosexuality and women's ordination."2

Bishop Hanson believes that a global ecumenical group made up of Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans is the answer to the crisis he sees. Hanson calls this effort a "ministry of reconciliation," that will "result of Christ breaking down the dividing walls," and "reconcil[ing] the whole creation to God's self."3 But Hanson says that those who believe in a biblical end times and a literal Bible interpretation are counterproductive to and holding back the cause of Christ, which he suggests is to unite all of creation and produce a planetary utopia.

Incredibly, Hanson would like to reverse the outcome of the first reformation, join hands with the Catholic Church, and embrace the Eucharistic Jesus in order to bring about an ecumenical unity and the kingdom of God here on earth. He explains:

"How do we as LWF [Lutheran World Federation] member churches continue to express our commitment to Eucharistic hospitality and sharing with the Roman Catholic Church without minimizing the theological issues that remain? Will 2017 and the 500th anniversary of the Lutheran Reformation provide an opportunity for shared reflection with the Roman Catholics on our contributions and commitment to the unity of Christ's church and to the work for justice and peace in all the earth."4

In this goal to bring about the kingdom of God on earth through an ecumenical, inter-faith movement, Reverend Munib Younan, bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jerusalem, believes that those who adhere to an apocalyptic end-time scenario (with a focus on Israel) are spreading "heresy." He says they "pretend to love the Jewish people" but are "actually anti-Jewish" with teachings that are "racist." He has requested that Lutherans "alert all Christians everywhere to its dangers and false teachings."5

As I mentioned earlier in [Faith Undone], Rick Warren tells his followers that the details of Christ's return are none of our business. Tony Campolo says Christians that focus on end-time scenarios have been the cause of "extremely detrimental" consequences. One thing you will notice in the writings of most emerging church leaders is an absence of discussion on a catastrophic apocalyptic atmosphere before Christ's literal return to earth. What you will see though is lots of discussion about establishing the kingdom now and never mind thinking about life after our earthly deaths. Brian McLaren gives an example:

"The church has been preoccupied with the question, "What happens to your soul after you die?" As if the reason for Jesus coming can be summed up in, "Jesus is trying to help get more souls into heaven, as opposed to hell, after they die." I just think a fair reading of the Gospels blows that out of the water. I don't think that the entire message and life of Jesus can be boiled down to that bottom line."6

In an interview on Planet Preterist website, McLaren discusses his dilemma over eschatological-thinking believers:

"I didn't start with any interest in rethinking eschatology ... I think many of us are in this kind of rethinking process--some starting from the beginning part by rethinking, perhaps, the relation of faith and science in relation to evolution and young-earth creationism ... some starting from the middle, as they re-examine what the gospel of the kingdom of God is supposed to mean, or the idea of integral or holistic mission ... and some starting from the end, re-examining eschatology....

"Sometimes I think that people who are thoroughly indoctrinated and habituated into this kind of system will not be able to break free from it without experiencing both psychological and social dislocation and disorientation." (emphasis added)7

McLaren also says that such Christians are really going to hurt our world. He continues:

"An eschatology of abandonment, which is how I would characterize certain streams of the left-behind approach, has disastrous social consequences... Any project geared toward improving the world long term is seen as unfaithful, since we're supposed to assume that the world is getting worse and worse."8

In the interview, McLaren is asked what he thinks about a "preterist book"* that was being released. McLaren states:

"A lot is at stake in these conversations--and very literally, the lives of thousands of people hang in the balance because if the dominant religious group in the country with the most weapons of mass destruction embraces an eschatology that legitimates escalating violence ... well, I hate to think about it."9

In essence, McLaren is saying if you believe the Book of Revelation and Matthew 24 are yet to take place, you are a dangerous psychological misfit and are assumed to have no compassion for the suffering, no concerns for the environment or the world in which we live, and have the potential to blow up the world with "weapons of mass destruction." If McLaren was talking about big governments and political parties, that would be one thing, but he is clear--he is referring to Christians who believe what the Bible says about the last days.

In an article written by Rick Warren, "What Do You Do When Your Church Hits a Plateau?" Warren told pastors and church leaders not to be discouraged about slow change in their churches. He told them it would take time ... and in many cases, it would take these resisters either leaving the church or simply dying. Warren exhorts:

"If your church has been plateaued for six months, it might take six months to get it going again. If it's been plateaued a year, it might take a year. If it's been plateaued for 20 years, you've got to set in for the duration! I'm saying some people are going to have to die or leave. Moses had to wander around the desert for 40 years while God killed off a million people before he let them go into the Promised Land. That may be brutally blunt, but it's true. There may be people in your church who love God sincerely, but who will never, ever change."10

By making statements like this, Rick Warren marginalizes those who won't go along with the new reformation that he is hoping for. While Warren doesn't say that people should kill them, he does say that God may have to end their lives, just like when "God killed off a million people before he let them go into the Promised Land."

One of the tools Rick Warren uses to help churches make the transformation into the new paradigm is a book called Transitioning: Leading Your Church Through Change. Written by Dan Southerland, a Saddleback pastor and the director of Church Transitions Inc., an organization that "trains pastors and church leaders to effectively manage major transitions,"11 Southerland states in a chapter titled "Dealing with Opposition":

"We have experienced two major sources of criticism during our transitions. The first is Christians from more traditional backgrounds.... Not all of our traditional backgrounded Christians have been critical--just the ornery ones. Our second source of criticism is traditional church pastors. Again, not all traditional church pastors--just the meaner ones."12

Southerland tells readers that "some folks are going to get very angry." He likens these opposers to "leader[s] from hell." He says:

"If you have read Nehemiah recently, you will remember that Sanballat is Nehemiah's greatest critic and number one enemy. Let me put it plainer than that. Sanballat is a leader from hell.... We all have some Sanballats in our churches. This is the guy who opposes whatever you propose.... You cannot call this guy a leader from hell to his face--but you could call him Sanballat."13

The concept of get with the program, change, or die is very common in New Age and emerging circles as well--those who don't get on board (or ride the wave as Leonard Sweet puts it), will have to die. Listen to the words of New Age activist Barbara Marx Hubbard. She states:

"Christ-consciousness and Christ-abilities are the natural inheritance of every human being on Earth. When the word of this hope has reached the nations, the end of this phase of evolution shall come. All will know their choice. All will be required to choose.... All who choose not to evolve will die off."14

This sounds much like Leonard Sweet when he says, "Reinvent yourself for the 21st century or die. Some would rather die than change."15

It is quite ironic that one of the biggest complaints by New Agers and emerging church proponents alike is the black and white, either/or mindset of their critics, but in actuality, this is what they are doing themselves--telling believers to "reinvent or die." (This is an excerpt from Faith Undone, pp. 200-206.)

Thankful for your posts Broclint and Forrest.

While we've all been "distracted", the new world order is being ushered in by those who have been considered by most, to be part of "the church" and their activity level & "networking out" toward this goal has increased so much in just this past year, it would be impossible to post all of them and the vast multitude of those involved, both religious, secular and political, together working as one, toward this one goal.

I know with all of my heart, that this is the number one issue facing us all - though it is a hard subject to approach and present.

As in the posts on the previous page - I can only ask that during our days off, that we search the links given on page one and those below.
The articles by Roger Oakland and Dave Hunt and the rest listed again below, are chock full of the documentation, of how far this "religious movement" has merged with not only the New Age, the eccumenical, but now are fully active in Global political action, decision making and attempting to bring about what the Word of God tells us that only Jesus The Christ can and will bring at His Second Advent and this is the unfolding of the source of the future persecution of The Elect.

Please take this seriously and don't think that this is just another false doctrine thread.

This is the most important message I've ever personally put myself behind in my lifetime and though I'd rather sweep it out of my thoughts, I know that EVERY Christian on earth will be much affected with what is being posted on this thread ... Some swept away by it and others persecuted by it - but every single Christian on this planet will have the tenticles of this Merger touch their lives in an Eternal way.

Please be open to doing the research.

Please put all the links on both of these pages somewhere, for easy access on your computer and research this Global Religious/Political Movement as much as possible.

You all have my deepest heart felt love and prayers and always will.

I pray 2008 is a year in which the veil is rent and our spiritual eyes are opened very wide by His Spirit, to understand the magnitude of these delusions/deceptions and that we are able to educate ourselves enough to save many in our own families, fellowships and many friends. In Jesus' Holy Name. Amen.

'His' Love & Peace to you all.

[b]The Global Initiative for a new world order - brought to you by "the church" - plus - [/b]

Emergent leader Brian McLaren, in discussing “Jesus’ secret message,” said His “secret plan” was for a “spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world” (p. 4). This is the language of the doctrine of dominionism, and his book The Secret Message of Jesus (W Publ. Group, 2006) is rife with examples. Remarks like:

[i]"God's conspiracy seeks to overturn the world as it is so that a new world can emerge." (p. 143)

"Each person can be a secret agent of the secret kingdom." (p. 83)

"God was launching a new world order, a new world, a new creation." (p. 31)

"A new day is coming--a new earth, a new world order, a new reality, a new realm--in short, a new kingdom." (p. 23)

"What is Jesus' secret message reveals a secret plan? What if he didn't come to start a new religion--but rather to start a political, social, religious, artistic, economic, intellectual, and spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world?"[/i] (p. 4)

Rick Warren Quote:

[i]“We have what we call our ‘20/20 vision’—10 million churches with 100 million small groups mobilizing 1 billion disciples for the PEACE Plan by the year 2020. . . .[/i]

http://herescope.blogspot.com/search?q=Global+peace&x=50&y=3

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/globalpeace.htm

http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?cat=10

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/solidarity-1.html

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=51

Dear my brothers and sisters, though i wanted to hug every one i saw at the confrence, i was really shy and didn't get to know most of you: Annie you changed your avatar? no wonder i had thought you were gone, and Forrest, very very glad to see you back.

let's hold on to two things and we will never go astray:

Faith and repentance.
i believe if we hold onto those two aspects of the gospel of our Lord we will never go astray. the problem i think is we don't even agree most of the time what Faith is. i will not argue what the definition the Bible for Faith is, neither the implicaitons of what that Faith would make me do, but i want to tell you something: as Rolfe Baranrd says in a good number of his sermons, if this faith that resides in me is not scandalous (notice he didn't say ridiculous or absurd, or weird or non-rational), to those that are in the world or in this emergent church movement or anyone who is in spiritual darkness, i can assure myself that i don't have the Faith that God's Word talks about. And i believe this is where we have gone wrong for so long a time not just here but everywhere in the world; for most mission agencies go with the gospel "believe" and they might as well have added the word "recite" and "you will be saved". What's so beautiful of this Faith is- every time i think of this Faith that God's word talks about, i am driven to my knees.

Brother, that is why having the Classics as a foundation here is what puts us all on safer ground and yet to know what's new and creeping in, was what most of the Epistles dealt with also. I love that balance and I appreciate the expression given to that balance.

Appreciated your words here - "-for most mission agencies go with the gospel "believe" and they might as well have added the word "recite" and "you will be saved"."

Your post reminded me of this verse - Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Thank you sb1175!

Recently, I had occasion to be posting Hebrews 11:6 which says that without faith it is impossible to please God - that we must seek Him believing 'He is'.

I don't want to divert this thread from the intent of the original poster, to awaken us to the reality of the merging of religious belief with political objectives and the extent to which these are already operational, but I noticed this in Diane's quote from Jeffrey Arthurs:

all of us need to repent and accept by faith the grace offered in Jesus Christ. Our real needs have not changed, nor has the gospel, the solution to our needs.

Nor was I trying to disagree with your points Diane, but it hit me that we arrive in this world and find ourselves surrounded by evidences of God from our earliest breath. He doesn't need to 'do' anything else to declare Himself. And Mike's point about the denial of scriptural authority rings very true.

Even as I write I can recall how fiercely during the years of my childhood, the simple observation that God made the world, the sun, mankind (and so on) drew scorn from [i]all quarters[/i] - academics and children alike (who were learning from their parents' new-found freedom to reject God) - but now with the backing of the educational establishment. All were challenging what they [i]imagined[/i] to be the faulty received wisdom of the generation previously, whom they [i]imagined[/i] had believed without cause. Isn't that the basis of all modern scepticism? Unlike the scepticism of the seventeenth century, which set out to prove God through science, we have arrived in an age where denial [i]per se[/i] is considered an academically respectable stance. Truly, the fool hath said in his heart 'There is no God'.

Let's get back to basics. Let's encourage each other to pray for wisdom and insight, that we may each slide out from under the burdens of this age, and trust God for all necessary provision to glorify His name - whether by life or by death. Amen.

[b]Make it Plain[/b] by Anton Bosch

“Write the vision and make it plain on tablets, that he may run who reads it.” (Habakkuk 2:2).

The instruction to the prophet is to make the vision plain. In other words make it simple and easy to understand so that the reader may be motivated into action. This is the calling to all preachers, teachers and writers of God’s Word. Our job is not to impress people with our knowledge and vocabulary but to communicate the message in such a way that the hearer will not only understand it, but will be able to apply it to his life.

Unfortunately, it seems that many modern “theologians” take the joke about theology being the art of making simple things complicated seriously. Take just the following statement as an example: “To envision, to energize, and to enable changes in the paradigm, mission/purpose, and culture. . . leans more in the direction of the supersensible, the intuitive, the spiritual, the metastrategic -- the magical." (John C. Hillary, in his article "Paradigm Change: More Magic than Logic") What does that really mean?

Jesus was the most powerful, wise and anointed preacher of all time but, look how He spoke: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth…" (Mat 5;3-5). While His words were profound and life-giving they were easy to comprehend so that even children could understand Him. Those with wisdom and insight plumbed the weightiness and depth of His sayings but even the simple could understand His message. When He commissioned Peter at the sea, He did not send Peter (and us) to feed the giraffes but to feed the lambs and the sheep. (John 21:15-17). He never said a single word about how we should impress the wise and intelligent, but He said much about the consequences of causing little ones to stumble. The lawyers of Jesus’ day were very good at this game and so Jesus said to them: “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.” (Luke 11:52).

Paul found himself under pressure by the philosophers to display his wisdom by clever arguments, but he too chose to only preach the foolishness of the Cross and concluded that “God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise” (1Corinthians 1:27).

So, we should be very suspicious of the motives of anyone who writes or speaks in big fancy terms as this is certainly evidence of a desire to boast of their vocabulary and knowledge, rather than communicate the truth. Peter speaks of them as "wells without water and clouds that carry no rain. They speak great swelling words of emptiness…” (2Peter 2:18). What a graphic description – big words that say nothing! Paul spoke of those who, “Professing themselves to be wise… became fools” (Romans 1:23). This is the same spirit of the antichrist who “was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies” (Revelation 13:5). No doubt, one of the things that will attract the damned to this imposter will be his convincing words. Be careful of those who exhibit the same ability as the antichrist and Satan to disguise their lies by clever speech. Paul warns against those who “do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple” (Romans 16:18).

In the past few years many of these “clever” men have also developed a whole new language that is radically different to the language of the Bible. There may be times that we have to use words that are not part of Scripture in order to describe something that is clearly taught in the Bible. Think for example, of words like “the rapture” and “the Trinity.” I am sure that it is sometimes necessary to use such words, but they should be the exception rather than the norm. However, when I try to read the writings of modern gurus, or attend their lectures, I find they have a completely new vocabulary, filled with jargon which is almost impossible to be understood by an outsider like myself. Take another look at the quote from Mr. Hillary above. Are “envision,” “paradigm,” “supersensible,” “intuitive,” “metastrategic” and “magical” biblical terms, or do they describe biblical concepts? One of them, is not even in the English language and the rest do not appear in the Bible. While most of these words seem to mean the same as similar words in the Bible, what they really mean in modern theology is directly opposite to the closest similar word in the Bible.

Unfortunately some preachers are dazzled by these fancy terms and they then begin to borrow this jargon and begin to weave it into their own messages and writings. Sometimes these parrots know what the word may mean, but often they use it without even understanding what the term really means. Of course this is not unique to theology. It is very common for journalists and politicians to do the same. I have often thought about designing a computer program that will write political or religious speeches. The program will have a basic set of fancy words, technical terms and other mumbo-jumbo which the computer will then string together at random to form sentences that really say nothing at all. I am sure we have all listened to a sermon or a speech and after 20 minutes of much hot air wondered what really was said.

I think, but could be totally wrong, that what Mr Hillary said above is: “to make changes, we need magic.” So why did he not say so? Firstly, because that would not make him sound clever and secondly, it would reveal the gross error of what he is proclaiming!

So, whenever you come across a “Christian” whose writing or speech is confusing and verbose (wordy), don’t feel inferior. It is not you who have failed to understand, it is the writer who has failed to communicate. It is not you who is stupid, but the generator of hot air is the fool. Don’t struggle with it – just let it go. If it was God’s Word, it would not be hard to understand.

If you are a speaker or writer then don’t follow the footsteps of Satan who, by playing tricks with words, deceived Eve; but follow Jesus whose Words are spirit and life (John 6:63). Let us be like the Levites, in the time of Nehemiah, who “helped the people to understand the Law… (who) read distinctly from the book, in the Law of God; and they gave the sense, and helped them to understand the reading” (Nehemiah 8:7,8).

http://www.discernment-ministries.org/HerescopeMarch2006.htm

For anyone who wants to get familiar with the "Peace Plan" mentioned above, and that we'll be hearing much more of in the days ahead - one could start with the February 2007 Newsletter.

http://www.discernment-ministries.org/HerescopeArchives.htm

[b]BRIAN MCLAREN – ‘EVERYTHING MUST CHANGE’: JESUS’ SECOND COMING (PART 2)[/b]

Chris Rosebrough of Extreme Theology has posted the second part of his review of “Everything Must Change” the new book by Brian McLaren. Part two looks at Brian McLaren’s rejection of the historic doctrine of Christ’s Second Coming.

Said Rosebrough:

Jesus’ return in glory has been the hope of Christians for two millennia. But we learn in “Everything Must Change” that this is NOT Brian McLaren’s hope at all!
Brian McLaren has re-imagined and re-crafted a kinder and gentler Jesus who WOULD NEVER return to judge the world and forcefully establish His Kingdom on Earth. The “Jesus” that McLaren has created is more like Ghandi. McLaren’s “Jesus” works by subverting Imperialism through the use of non-violence and would never utilize the methods of Imperialism to establish his own kingdom.
You can read Part Two of Rosebrough’s article [url=http://www.extremetheology.com/2007/10/mclarens-everyt.html]here[/url].

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[b]ROGER OAKLAND’S “FAITH UNDONE” REVIEWED BY GARY GILLEY[/b]
The back cover of [i]Faith Undone[/i] by Roger Oakland asks:

Is the emerging church movement just another passing fad, a more contemporary approach to church, or the discontent grumblings of young people looking for answers? In fact it is much broader and is influencing Christianity to a significant degree. Grounded in a centuries-old mystical approach, this movement is powerful yet highly deceptive, and it draws its energy from practices and experiences that are foreign to biblical Christianity.
The path the emerging church is taking is leading right into the arms of an interfaith perspective that has prophetically profound ramifications. It is indeed a new way of being Christians, and in every conceivable manner, it is striving to bring about a new reformation. Without a doubt, it will have an impact on all churches in the Western world and far beyond. For behind this new kind of church is a well-designed strategy and maneuver by the prince of this world, the enemy of our souls, to literally take apart the faith of millions—it will be nothing less than faith undone.
Dr. Gary Gilley of Southern View Chapel begins his look at Oakland's book about the emerging church by informing us that:

Roger Oakland has provided for God’s people a needed and valuable exposé of the emergent church movement. This is the most complete and up-to-date treatment of this complex and rapidly changing “conversation” (as adherents like to call it).
Faith Undone is extremely valuable on many fronts: First, we are given the history and roots of the movement. While officially of recent vintage, the roots go back many years to people like Peter Drucker along with Bob Buford and his Leadership Network.
You can read Gilley’s full review of Roger Oakland’s book, which exposes—among other things—the neo-liberalism of the emerging church [url=http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=363]here[/url].

See also:

John MacArthur: The Emergent Church is a Form of Paganism

The Emerging Church: Faith Undone

EMERGENT CHURCH: THE EMERGING CULT

@ http://www.apprising.org/archives/emergent_church/index.html

Hi Barry. Thank you for the encouragement. This topic is blowing our minds too. Never thought that silly Purpose Driven Drivel would branch in the World Governance and the one world religion.

Remembering back three decades ago, we'd discuss the one world gov & religion and saw it as something way far down the road.
Like you said, "Wow!" it's here. At least the foundation is laid and the building has definitely started. At least have a finished first floor now.

On the other side of the coin, the good sites are also merging against this. Every site posted on this thread work together and post each other's articles. Amazing!
They may be in the minority and unfortunately, are not viewed as much as they should or need to be, but nonetheless, there IS a voice of sanity and reason out there - Praise The LORD.

I noticed you mention children. A good site that been already listed on this thread is http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles.html .

This couple have the greatest burden for children I've seen. Reading children's books, viewing recent movies, games, video games, homeschool issues, etc. etc.. Quite a heart for protecting children.

I hope in 2008, the interest in discernment escalates. Amen. That is my prayer.
It certainly is much needed - as the Word of GOD warns us.

Thank you for your contributions and may HE lead and guide you in all things and bless your family with His Peace.
His Love.

Hi Brother Clint. I agree with you whole-heartedly.

At the same time, I'm a "server" by nature. I love to feed the hungry, care for the sick, etc. etc..

Had I not been blessed by these links, I could have easily been caught up with these movements, because for one, they have an "anti-torture" movement besides.

Also, because of these links, I just found out that one of the many Sunday schools that are offered at my Church, has already introduced Willowcreek material, that is leading to this "Networking" and I know the Pastor of Education doesn't know [i]where[/i] this Networking is leading up to.

They started with the book on "testing yourself to see what gifts you have".
Now they're on the Network book. Researching all of those links was not something I chose to do with my life, but felt "compelled". Now, very grateful that the Spirit led me that way.
I meet more folks each day that think this is only about some Purpose Driven Something or Nuther.
That's far from the case.

Yes, the Spirit of Truth, has led me to these sites when I first got a computer and I thank Jesus for it. We used to have to read all of these books ourselves to know all of what they were promoting, including gobs of Global Politics stuff. Thank GOD for this internet - for now.

I'm trying to put enough on here for those who don't have the time to do the researching. Just enough to catch buzz words or whatever that may slip into their own Fellowships.

This all IS leading to the one world religion/government - so I'd say, it's important enough for me to know about as much as I can.
It's a very subtle thing, appealing to our desire to help the world.
We can help the world without being Networked to this new "initiative".

Thank you also for loving Him Who is The Truth.
GOD Bless.

[b]There [i]will[/i] be a time of peace. Some call it the first half of anti-Christ's reign and again, also before "sudden destruction comes".

The Word also tells us, that the world will "come together" under a false religion, (a world religion) and that this false religion will be very politically involved ..... "The whore that rides the beast."

It is something we don't like to discuss or think about - but it is happening as we speak. This Merger we're seeing of the Religious and Political goes on full-steam-ahead, while we make "other plans". We aren't seeing it prophetically - but only as another discussion about fringe groups.

A personal "drawing near to God" is an absolute essential, with the coming of these deceptions and many ministries fear that those who are seeking some large move of God will be sucked into this Emergent Movement when it enters it's "quantum leap".

It has already drawn in most of the Apostle & Prophets movements and others who's eschatology sees the world coming to some Kingdom Peace & Restoration 'before' the Coming of Christ.

Jesus stated plainly, that hallmark sign of "those days" - will be a great falling away. And the true Saints will be persecuted by the false church.

Be wise as serpents and as harmless as doves.

The Global Initiative [i]is[/i] for a new world order and is brought to you by "the church" merged with "governance" -[/b]

Emergent leader Brian McLaren, in his book The Secret Message of Jesus (W Publ. Group, 2006) is rife with examples. Remarks like:

"God's conspiracy seeks to overturn the world as it is so that a new world can emerge." (p. 143)

"God was launching a new world order, a new world, a new creation." (p. 31)

"A new day is coming--a new earth, a new world order, a new reality, a new realm--in short, a new kingdom." (p. 23)

"What is Jesus' secret message reveals a secret plan? What if he didn't come to start a new religion--but rather to start a political, social, religious, artistic, economic, intellectual, and spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world?" (p. 4)

Rick Warren Quote:

“We have what we call our ‘20/20 vision’—10 million churches with 100 million small groups mobilizing 1 billion disciples for the PEACE Plan by the year 2020. . . .

[b][url=http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=106]**Rick Warren, Evangelicals, Invite Muslims to Love God Together**[/url][/b]

[i]"Christian leaders urged for an interfaith dialogue that moves beyond “polite” ecumenical talks between selected leaders. Instead, leaders of both faiths should hold dialogues to build relations that will “reshape” the two communities to “genuinely reflect our common love for God and for one another,” the Christian letter stated.“Given the deep fissures in the relations between Christians and Muslims today, the task before us is daunting. And the stakes are great. The future of the world depends on our ability as Christians and Muslims to live together in peace,” the letter added. “If we fail to make every effort to make peace and come together in harmony you correctly remind us that ‘our eternal souls’ are at stake as well.

The letter’s main emphasis is the “absolutely central” commonality between both religions: love of God and love of neighbor.

Other signers of the letter include Miroslav Volf, founder and director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture; Dr. Martin Accad, academic dean of the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary (Lebanon); Robert E. Cooley, president emeritus of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary; Harvey Cox, Hollis professor of Divinity at Harvard Divinity School; and Bill Hybels, founder and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church."[/i]

_______________________________________________________________________

Those signing the Christian/Muslim pact for peace on earth last month.

Rick Warren (Southern Baptist, Sr. pastor Saddleback)
Bill Hybels (Willow Creek Association)
Leith Anderson (head of NAE and Wooddale Church)
Northwest University (Washington, AOG)
Fuller Seminary
Biola University
Northwest University
David Yonggi Cho (Korea)
Bethel College
Bethel University
Makoto Fujimura, Artist (Focus on the Family, The Truth Project)
YWAM
Eastern Mennonite Mission
Wheaton College
Emergent Village
Assemblies of God
First Presbyterian- Vintage Faith Church, Santa Cruz, CA
World Vision
Taylor University
ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America)
Brian McLaren
Christianity Today
The Christian Century
Tyndale Seminary
Vineyard USA
Robert Schuller (Crystal Cathedral)
Regent College (BC)
The Navigators
Jim Wallis (Sojourners)"
---------------------------------------

[b]Fact:[/b] Rupert Murdoch is one the world’s greatest distributors of pornography. Yet, he is one of the speakers for Robert Schuller’s upcoming [url=http://www.rethinkconference.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=3&Itemid=14]Rethink Conference.[/url] :-(

Why on Earth should Christ’s church learn to “rethink itself” in light of the advice offered by the world’s greatest pornographer? That is just as inappropriate as asking Larry Flint to come speak to your church’s women’s group.

Fact is, Murdoch has nothing to say to Christ’s church. But, the church has something to say to Rupert Murdoch (and his pastor). That message is “repent”!

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?m=200710

That's great brother Jeff. Would like to hear more as you go along or finish. I've only gotten excerpts from his site and others, but would like to hear what you've seen through it.

Thank you and a Blessed new year to you.

Wanted to leave one more link.

www.deceptioninthechurch.com

As with all the other links on this thread, there's a Search Engine in them, where one can type in a name or topics and have answers to any questions arising about them.

In the Gospels and the last book of the Bible, Jesus commanded we "watch" and "be sober".
The enemy desperately wants to [i]distract[/i] us from doing that.

This thread's contents can be watched, in the sense that, those mentioned on it can be watched as to who they are meeting with and are doing, both in the religious arena and political.

It's forming by merging and I don't know how to say it any better than that.

Lord & Christ, Jesus Bless!

As I said in my last post on the previous page - every site link on here is there for our benefit to Search Things Out - with their Search Engines.

This was a good time to do it.
___________________________________________________

[b]Mars Hill Church Sponsors New Year’s Eve Booze ‘n Dance Club[/b]

We’ve come a long way from church-sponsored Watch Night services where prayer and hymn singing by God’s people ushered in the New Year. Mark Driscoll is turning his church into a club, Friday News Notes reports.

[i]Mars Hill Church in Seattle is hosting a “Red Hot Bash2″ on December 31 featuring Bobby Medina and his Red Hot Band, “one of the top dance bands in the Northwest,” which will play everything “from Swing to Latin to Motown and beyond.” Participants are invited to “come bust a move on the enormous dance floor” and are reminded to bring their ID’s so they can enjoy the champagne bar. We are told that the church facility will be “transformed into a posh club” and there will be a dance contest. This church is pastored by Mark Driscoll, the president of the Acts 29 church planting network.[/i]

Back in 2005, I wrote this piece about Saddleback’s Hollywood Glitz and Glam dance. This is not the Church of Jesus Christ. Our Savior does have a Bride, and she is being kept pure and spotless and chaste. The whore church that has no heart for holiness, that would rather sponsor dance contests than prayer meetings, that makes like Belshazzar’s Feast with the champagne flowing and voluptuous partying, instead of seeking God’s help to walk rightly in increasingly bleak times, is not the Bride of Christ. It goes against everything we read in Holy Scripture about the conduct and comportment of those who have left the world behind, taken up their crosses and followed in the Christ’s footsteps.

Let these people party on in their “churches”. Anyone who challenges them biblically will only get howled down by the pleasure-mad evangelical mob. But as the 2007 turns over into 2008, may those who have truly taken up their crosses and followed Jesus re-commit ourselves to prayer and walking in holiness so that our lives may be lights in our very dark country.

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?s=Mark+Driscoll

[url=http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=44070390&_charset_=utf-8&bcd=%C3%B7&scs=1&pageid=r&query=Mark+Driscoll+&mode=Find+pages+matching+ALL+words]"Test all things"[/url]

because we're living in the last days which is hallmarked by "deception".

http://herescope.blogspot.com/search?q=Mark+Driscoll

The other sites have more.

The word "heresies" in the Greek is "Choice".

Brother, I meant no offense, believe it or not. :-?

[u]I love people[/u] and don't like seeing people being sucker-punched. I may not always go about it in the most tactful way and am trying my best to be perfected in that area, still and honestly --- yet there's that part that reacts to the words and not the person themselves. As if to separate the words from the person. Like trying to shew a bee away from someone. Oh my - one day I'll learn proper written etiquette.
I hope as a "New Guy" that you could understand.

You are in a GOOD place and I noticed on your Intro, that the others have recommended good Authors besides the good ones you mentioned yourself.

Lord Bless you and Bless you here.
His Love.

Annie

blessed, thank you. I'm not going off from this site - I'm going off-line again completely tomorrow afternoon, as I say - out of necessity. I think this will make the 4th or 5th time, to rest. Bless Jesus!
It's bittersweet though at first. Twice it was for a year each. This time - only God knows.
There are Good People here. His eyes are on them all. He is Faithful and Good!
I am honored to live in the same state as brother Krispy, KingJimmy, ravenmolehill and others.

Lord watch over all. Amen.

Hia Mike. Your post made me smile. Great peace have they that love Thy law.
My mind traveled through the whole of the Word, and tried to find "tact" when dealing with heresies and charlatans in His Word. Just a thought. Most especially having to do with this last great apostasy that Jesus warned of and that strong delusion of 2 Thess 2 that He'll send just before the appearing of anti-Christ.

Serious times brother.

If anything, I think the word is not heavy enough from any of these sites, but I acknowledge the difficult ministry they've been called to and if they didn't do it - I know Paul would be very disheartened by us all, if we've looked at his ministry at all and seeing his feelings on these issues. As would Jesus Himself and His others. The great falling away and the false teachers and prophets would not receive "tact" from Jude, etc.
This topic didn't receive it then, nor would it now, if they were physically here with us - but their words and actions are with us in writing.
They'd more than likely be shouting from the housetops by now.

I believe more preachers lack "tact" and "prayer" before they preach - as well as the "open-air" folks, than these dear Saints attacking/exposing this final last day delusion.

Most have the witness that this is "the last call" before the strong delusion is effectual.
Time is running out. Those in the valley of decision are being woed by truth, out to safety. Bless the LORD!

I pray you find His Peace also.
In Jesus.

Thanks for this thread, Annie. I too have been following it and plan to take the time to really digest it and ponder all you have shared here.

I echo the words of Pastorfrin in saying that you are loved and will be missed here on SI! You're a dear lady and precious sister in the Lord. May the Lord bless you as you faithfully obey Him and follow Him in all that He leads you to do. You're in my prayers.

~Joy

Hi Brother Ian. The post on Mark Driscoll, contained much more than his New's Eve Bash.
Though it is difficult to see Paul "getting them into the church" in the same fashion, he is just one of the many that are bringing in what this entire thread has been about.

These sites that are tracking these movements, show plainly the merging with Brian McLaren, Rick Warren and the many others to form something that in the end, they hope to be that which would fulfill the global church, which it is, in the worst possible sense. First with the merge with Rome years ago, then the falling away from truth in the area of soteriology, bringing in new-age people, going political globally, the conference at Saddleback over AIDS, the world Peace Plan, last month the Muslim pact, the upcoming "Rethink Conference" and on and on.

There is so much more, but I did leave these two others with him and who he's linked with.
To just take this one unscriptural way of "bringing them in" at the exclusion of the whole of this thread - would not be a fair method of searching out a matter, for anyone.

These were the other two links, that are substantial.

[url=http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=44070390&_charset_=utf-8&bcd=%C3%B7&scs=1&pageid=r&query=Mark+Driscoll+&mode=Find+pages+matching+ALL+words]"Test all things"[/url]

We are living in the last days which is hallmarked by "deception".

http://herescope.blogspot.com/search?q=Mark+Driscoll

Quote: [i]"We want to throw sticks and stones...."[/i]

That is very far from the truth brother.

Bye y'all!

:-D

Why is this thread being diverted into a discussion about whether its OK to drink and throw parties?

This isn't about "Conspiracy Theories" or about whether some sites are rather too much into witch hunting. Some probably are, but that isn't the point. The point is, Will we be able to stand in the evil day that is surely coming, (this year, next year, in 10 years time, I have no idea, but the signs are it won't be long.)

The Enemy is already causing evangelical Christianity to be hijacked under our noses and turned into a demon-worshipping cult of pseudo-Christianity. And you want to discuss whether its OK for churches to have parties!!!

It's the rampant deception and false teachings that are the danger, not the parties!

If you want to accuse the Bible of conspiracy theories go ahead!

This isn't a conspiracy theory it's a fact. Deception is beginning to increase exponentially. I've seen it personally in the church I used to go to until recently, (I have no doubt that the leaders are true and sincere men of God, but they are being drawn into deception and unaware of it. I continue to love and pray for them but can no longer worship with them) It's also in many, many other churches, and in popular "Christian" books and other media.

This thread is about the fulfillment of Scripture, that in the "Last Days" many will fall away from the faith and turn to false prophets, idolatry, doctrines of demons etc etc.

It is already happening, NOW! Can't you see it?

Are some of you asleep or what?

Can you afford to ignore shouts of "FIRE!" when you are already half dazed by the smoke? Soon it will be impossible to wake up even if you want to.

I've never posted so strongly on this subject but time is very short.

WAKE UP, while you still can!

in Him

Jeannette

Pastorfrin, I presented your post to my daughter - she agreed. I feel as we get older, our children become our parents. :-(

Word gets out fast. This New Year a.m. starting with words about Forrest's & Jeannette's posts.
Amazing!

Added the link to the one title, Forrest.

Amazing.

[url=http://samirselmanovic.typepad.com/faith_house/][b]FAITH HOUSE [u]Manhattan[/u] includes Brian McLaren Interview 9/18/07[/b][/url]

[url=http://www.faithhousemanhattan.org/faith_house/endorsements.html]Tony Campolo and Brian McLaren Endorsements[/url]

Not finding this surprizing at all, because that is the direction they have been heading in all along - the global religion, (or church), chock full of compromise with truth.
I've yet to fully explore this Faith House in NYC, but it surely does fulfill enough Scripture.

Amen Jeannette - I completely echo your sentiments and share this burden fully, "watch and be sober". The clarion call has been clear enough to even hear through the cloud.
Thank you!

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Diane, you may recognize some of the books offered on the right column of these links above.

Also not surprising that this Faith House is in New York.

Will be interesting days.

Thank you Brother ...

[i]Phil. 3:10,11
That I may Know Him,
and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of His sufferings,
being made conformable unto His death.
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.[/i]

AMEN !

An on-line book by Warren Smith.

"Reinventing Jesus Christ" - only 86 pages in easy to read font size and format - answers many questions regarding this upcoming series on Oprah and many of the other topics that arise, such as how the new-age is infiltrating and Maitreya.

Finding more and more Christians and unsaved folks alike, asking questions on these topics.
So sensible/thoughtful to have answers for them.

Wouldn't take more than a nite or weekend to read.

Two formats. The second pdf.

http://www.reinventingjesuschrist.com/

http://www.reinventingjesuschrist.com/reinventing.pdf

Praise Him Alone.

Why is this thread being diverted into a discussion about whether its OK to drink and throw parties? This isn't about "Conspiracy Theories" or about whether some sites are rather too much into witch hunting. Some probably are, but that isn't the point. The point is, Will we be able to stand in the evil day that is surely coming, (this year, next year, in 10 years time, I have no idea, but the signs are it won't be long.)

The Enemy is already causing evangelical Christianity to be hijacked under our noses and turned into a demon-worshipping cult of pseudo-Christianity. And you want to discuss whether its OK for churches to have parties!!!

It's the rampant deception and false teachings that are the danger, not the parties!

If you want to accuse the Bible of conspiracy theories go ahead!

This isn't a conspiracy theory it's a fact. Deception is beginning to increase exponentially. I've seen it personally in the church I used to go to until recently, (I have no doubt that the leaders are true and sincere men of God, but they are being drawn into deception and unaware of it. I continue to love and pray for them but can no longer worship with them) It's also in many, many other churches, and in popular "Christian" books and other media.

This thread is about the fulfillment of Scripture, that in the "Last Days" many will fall away from the faith and turn to false prophets, idolatry, doctrines of demons etc etc.

It is already happening, NOW! Can't you see it?

Are some of you asleep or what?

Can you afford to ignore shouts of "FIRE!" when you are already half dazed by the smoke? Soon it will be impossible to wake up even if you want to.

I've never posted so strongly on this subject but time is very short.

WAKE UP, while you still can!

in Him

Jeannette

AMEN Jeannette!

What I have found very interesting is what has happened to Christian Book Stores over the years.

Many of my favorites are no longer in business, ans now new Chains have taken over. You can't find good old fashioned teachers in these chains...but the modern day Emerging teachers, wall to wall.

I so pray for our younger generation eating this junk food.

And so appreciate SI for the many resources of these Oldies but Goldies.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

roadsign wrote:

Why is this thread being diverted…

Jeannette, What an interesting question! Essentially you are bringing us full circle back to the emergent project topic, by exposing one of its characteristics - also of our times: web-style of dialogue - you know – where you can click on links within a site, and that takes you to another place, which can take you to yet other places.

In fact, Pagitt purposely wrote his book with that “dialogical” model in mind (though he makes it sound like it's his imaginative idea.) He encourages his readers to read the book in any order they want. They can launch from a paragraph in the introductory chapter to any section in the book. They can skip as much of the book you want. In fact, if they don’t want to read any of it, that’s okay too.

Of course, that arbitrary “method” is somewhat appalling to me, but it IS, to some extent a reflection of my web browsing patterns.

Bunny trails once were considered a diversion to avoid, but now they are welcome as part of the progression of ??? not sure...... But, who’s going anywhere anyway! (That is the sentiment of the day - without direction)

I admit, I haven’t read this whole thread. I guess I “progress” in the old fashioned way. I like to stay on topic, though I realize that God has a way of leading us down paths we don’’ expect to go on.

Maybe diverging is not all bad. We ultimately may emerge somewhere.

Happy New Year to you all,
Diane

PS Hopefully next time I post I will offer something more nutritious. (But watch out for those dangling carrots! Can you spot the one in this post?)

It's interesting, and may be relevant to this subject, that just before the "Toronto Blessing" hit the Lord warned me that there would be a time of confusion.

Not because I was more "spiritual" than others, but probably because He knew how easily I get confused :lol:

This warning helped keep me steady in what was indeed a very confusing time. It felt like driving at night, when patches of mist sudenly start to appear in the car's headlights. The danger isn't the mist itself but because its almost impossible to keep from swerving (into oncoming traffic or off the road altogether) when they appear.

Probably the encouragement to follow "bunny trails" (harmless in themselves) acts as a smokescreen to hide the steady advance of "doctrines of demons" into the Church.

Doctrinal and spiritual errors are being introduced bit by bit under cover of this “dialogical” concept.

Blessings

Jeannette

UniqueWebRev wrote:

This Emerging Church is frightening, because it is so easy to confuse non-Bible based Christians.

I am a watchman for a few babes, and I am terrified for them...I don't even know how to explain to them that there is a 'Christian' church that wants to transcend this life, and 'EVOLVE' into a 'HIGHER STATE OF BEING', except that some of us 'Seperatist's' (READ BIBLE BASED CHRISTIANS AND TORAH BASED JEWS) will have to 'Make a choice' between their 'CHRIST', and Jesus Christ.

It's like some creepy bacteria, infecting everything it touches, until they all suddenly find how much they have in common with one another...Buddhists, Hindu's, Muslims, Catholics, Jews, even Evangelistic Christians!

But it's not just in the churches...it's in Corporate training offices, and in Politics...and it's moving fast.

May God protect us all!

Forrest

Just to say that I haven't forgotten you, though no pm's for a while. Have been praying for you.

How to protect the "babes"...? Mmm, thank you for bringing up a need that I hadn't seen clearly in quite that way.

Jesus told parables, maybe He will give you some suitable illustrations or stories that will explain in a way that words alone can't do?

Love in Him

Jeannette

Hey, this is like being with the ladies at the Women of Discernment Conference, that Discernment-Ministries.org puts on. Praise God for discerning Sisters and Brothers. Bless our Savior!

It just hit me the other day that Roger Oakland does speaking engagements and thought maybe to post a portion of his Schedule for anyone who lives nearby these places.
He used to be mostly just into Creation Science, but something got a hold on him too Jeannette. :-D

Thank you all for keeping all the lights on for the rest of us. Jesus Bless!

Roger Oakland Speaking Schedule.

[b]January 2008

January 9 - Calvary Chapel Asheville, Asheville, NC
January 10 - Calvary Chapel Hendersonville, Hendersonville, NC

January 11-13 Calvary Chapel Greenville, Greenville, SC

January 13 - Calvary Chapel Greenwood, Greenwood, SC

January 23-25 - Pastors and Leaders Conference, Manilla, Philippines

January 27-30 - Pastors and Leaders Conference, Baguio, Philippines

February 2008

February 6 - Calvary Chapel San Diego, Chula Vista, CA

February 16 - Steeling the Mind Conference, San Juan Capistrano, CA [/b]

http://www.understandthetimes.org/

HE_Reigns wrote:
It just hit me the other day that Roger Oakland does speaking engagements and thought maybe to post a portion of his Schedule for anyone who lives nearby these places.
He used to be mostly just into Creation Science, but something got a hold on him too Jeannette. :-D

Yes, Forrest and Katy did bring up that very important point.

Imagine 'just' getting saved today and not knowing where to go to be discipled? Or what the Old Path was/is?

That's our burden, more than anything else.

Amen too about the Book Stores Katy.

I don't know Sis. We'll have to keep an eye on his Schedule or email them.

Good question, but there are others (the sound folks are 'merging' too :) - so we'll keep an eye out across the pond. Amen.

We were just talking about an hour ago, how just saying "Jesus is the Only Way" is getting more taboo.
Faithful unto death. So many wonderful verses go through our minds.
And folks like Corrie and Brother Wurmbrand. :-D
What a wonderful cloud of witnesses !!!

Hi wrighty the new guy. :-)

Brother, the Lord knows them that are His.
The Elect will not be deceived. His Sheep know His Voice and will not follow another - but that doesn't keep us from warning apologetically, where teachings are wrong.

If we took out of the New Testament, everywhere that false doctrine was being corrected, our N.T. would probably half the width it is now.

We pray with you for His Sheep.

I recall one time that I was reading a certain Author and liking him - then saw his name come up on one of these Apologetic Ministry Sites and I looked into it and dropped reading any further from that 'teacher'.

That has been the testimony of a great number of Saints. They came out of movements or following certain people, just by hearing a tad from some Apologetical type.

Prayer and speaking the truth, will deliver His own from the hand of the fowler.

But so that our hearts are not broken beyond repair - we must remember that we 'are' living in the Last Days and the hallmark of these days is Apostasy from Truth. The "falling away comes first and then that man of sin is revealed".

We have to gird up our hearts for this reality.

Yet, as Paul said, "Pray for the Saints everywhere." and "Contend for the Faith".

Thank you for your care and we all pray together.

You're with like-minded Saints - Praise God for that.

:-)

HE_Reigns wrote:
Hi wrighty the new guy. :-)

Brother, the Lord knows them that are His.
The Elect will not be deceived. His Sheep know His Voice and will not follow another - but that doesn't keep us from warning apologetically, where teachings are wrong...

...We pray with you for His Sheep...

...Prayer and speaking the truth, will deliver His own from the hand of the fowler.

But so that our hearts are not broken beyond repair - we must remember that we 'are' living in the Last Days and the hallmark of these days is Apostasy from Truth. The "falling away comes first and then that man of sin is revealed".

We have to gird up our hearts for this reality.

Yet, as Paul said, "Pray for the Saints everywhere." and "Contend for the Faith".

Thank you for your care and we all pray together.

You're with like-minded Saints - Praise God for that.

:-)

A dream comes back to mind, (shared before on this forum but worth repeating).

I was in a wide field (the Lord said afterwards, "the field is the world"), surrounded by low hedges, though there were gaps or gates also. There was a war on, and small groups of opeople were seeking to escape the fighting. I was with a group of maybe four or five. There was a sound of gunfire from outside the field, getting nearer. I said, "let's go this way", away from the firing, and we moved that way.

I wasn't the leader - the group was too small to have a leader as such - but there was need for someone to sense the right direction in that dangerous situation.

So the Lord needs those who are prepared for the evil day that is coming, who can become nucleii, as it were, of safety and spiritual stability, to help others to discern the right way, and for mutual support.

in Him

Jeannette

Jordan, Jeannette and all, these posts reminded me of two excellent quotes. I Love the Classics!

From "Old Truth" ~

[url=http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.419][b]Excerpt from "All Kinds of Strange Teachings"[/b][/url]

by J. C. Ryle (1816-1900)

[i]"Many things combine to make the present inroad of false doctrine peculiarly dangerous. There is an undeniable zeal in some of the teachers of error: their "earnestness" makes many think they must be right. There is a great appearance of learning and theological knowledge: many fancy that such clever and intellectual men must surely be safe guides. There is a general tendency to free thought and free inquiry in these latter days: many like to prove their independence of judgment, by believing novelties. There is a wide-spread desire to appear charitable and liberal-minded: many seem half ashamed of saying that anybody can be in the wrong.
There is a quantity of half-truth taught by the modern false teachers: they are incessantly using Scriptural terms and phrases in an unscriptural sense. There is a morbid craving in the public mind for a more sensuous, ceremonial, sensational, showy worship: men are impatient of inward, invisible heart-work. There is a silly readiness in every direction to believe everybody who talks cleverly, lovingly, and earnestly, and a determination to forget that Satan often masquerades himself "as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14). There is a wide-spread "gullibility" among professing Christians: every heretic who tells his story plausibly is sure to be believed, and everybody who doubts him is called a persecutor and a narrow-minded man.

All these things are peculiar symptoms of our times.
I defy any observing person to deny them. They tend to make the assaults of false doctrine in our day peculiarly dangerous. They make it more than ever needful to cry aloud, "Do not be carried away!". If any one should ask me, What is the best safeguard against false doctrine? -- I answer in one word: "The Bible: the Bible regularly read, regularly prayed over, regularly studied."
We must go back to the old prescription of our Master:
"Diligently study the Scriptures" (John 5:39)." [/i]

[b] Martyn Lloyd-Jones . . .[/b]

[i]"You cannot separate what a man believes from what he is. For this reason doctrine is vitally important. Certain people say ignorantly, "I do not believe in doctrine; I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ; I am saved, I am a Christian, and nothing else matters". To speak in that way is to court disaster, and for this reason, the New Testament itself warns us against this very danger. We are to guard ourselves against being "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine", for if your doctrine goes astray your life will soon suffer as well.

So it behoves us to study the doctrines in order that we may safeguard ourselves against certain erroneous and heretical teachings that are as rife and as common in the world today as they were in the days of the early Church."[/i]

[b]Discerning Discernment[/b]
The Meaning and Significance of Hebrews 5:12-14 in the Christian’s Call of Discernment
By Ryan Habbena

“What’s your spiritual gift?” I have heard this question asked and answered many times. In my experience, the most common response to this inquiry is: “I have the gift of discernment.” When asked what this means, the person often answers, “I can automatically tell when something is evil.”

The Scriptures speak to the subject of discernment in various ways. While the Bible indeed affirms “discernment” as a spiritual gift (1 Corinthians 12:10),1 the truth is that all Christians are called to be “discerners” (see 1 John 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22). The question then naturally follows: “How do we acquire the ability to discern?” There are those who would answer in unison with the above example, simply stating: “I just know it my heart! I just know.” Note, for instance, Neal Anderson’s take on this subject: “Spiritual discernment is our first line of defense against deception. The Holy Spirit has taken up residence in every believer, and He is not silent when we encounter the counterfeit. Discernment is that little ‘buzzer’ that goes off inside when something is wrong.”2 While the Holy Spirit has indeed taken up residence in every believer, rather than relying upon an automatic, subjective “buzzer” that is supposed to “go off inside,” we are informed in Hebrews that believers are equipped with discernment via different means. Hebrews 5:12-14 speaks directly to this subject. In what follows I will engage in some “basic exposition” on this central text regarding discernment. Following this I will apply its teaching to how we all are called to be trained discerners in order to avoid the deception that surrounds us.

[b]The Context of Hebrews 5:12-14[/b]
The author of Hebrews3 recognized the danger in the midst of his readers. Many who repented and believed in Jesus the Messiah were being tempted to return to the stipulations and practices of the Mosaic Covenant. Those who had the yoke of the Law removed needed to be warned against apostasy in order to stand firm in the word of Jesus Christ. In both comforting and convicting fashion, the author of Hebrews systematically demonstrates that Jesus is superior to all that was held dear under the Old Covenant. He is greater than the prophets who came before Him (vs. 1:1-2), He is greater than the angels (vs. 1:4-13), He is greater than Moses (vs. 3:1-6), and He is greater than the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood (chapters 5-10). In establishing his case and exhorting his readers, the author wants to teach his readers about the sign “Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing” (Hebrews 5:11). This, in turn, brings us to the significant passage pertaining to discernment.

[b]Expounding Hebrews 5:12-14[/b]
“For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.”(verse 12)
Good Biblical interpretation will examine context and usage to discover meaning and function.4 In light of this, the author’s use of imagery in this text must be carefully considered. He first notes his frustration at their spiritual “dullness of hearing” which indicates an inability to receive further instruction.5 Shifting metaphors, he then uses food imagery to describe the word of God and further diagnose their condition. The need for “milk” in this context is an indictment of the reader’s spiritual maturity.6 Needing “milk” indicates spiritual infancy.7 Just what is “milk” and “solid food” in this context? Recalling the brief discussion in chapter 5 prior to this text, and looking forward to what will be resumed in chapters 7-10, the author wishes to teach his readers about Jesus’ priesthood. This entails going in-depth regarding the order of Melchizedek, biblical typology and fulfillment, and applying the significance of these truths to their current situation. These theological truths are considered “meaty stuff” and, thus, solid food. These truths were necessary to hear, understand, and heed, in order to avoid the temptation in their midst – returning to the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant.

“Milk,” on the other hand, is synonymous with the “elementary principles of the oracles of God” (vs. 12). These would be considered the “basics” one learns upon initiation into New Covenant community. Many have postulated as to what specifically the author is referring to with this phrase.8 The most compelling definition comes through reading the immediate context. In chapter 6:1-2, the author exhorts: “Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 6:1-2)

These are the “elementary principles” of the New Covenant. These are the “foundation” of the faith. These truths are the “milk” of which all believers partake. The problem was that of perpetual infancy. Commentator George Guthrie well notes that the author of Hebrews is “describing in no uncertain terms a level of immaturity among his readers Spiritually they are like babies still suckling at a mother’s breast, unconcerned with the rich, hearty foods of the adults’ table.”9Rather than remaining in this infantile state, the call is to maturity. This leads to the further admonition: “For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil”(Hebrews 5:13, 14).

In this portion of the text the author makes clear his concern regarding maturity: Only partaking in the “milk” of the elementary principles of the faith stunts spiritual growth. What then is the solution to this state of “spiritual infancy?” The answer? Become accustomed to the “word of righteousness.” The believer in Christ is called to grow in order to be able to process and be nourished by “solid food.” The author of Hebrews has carefully constructed this “word” throughout the flow of the epistle. This “word” was referred to in the introduction of the letter, and subsequently at the beginning of chapter two:

“God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world . . .”
“For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard.”
Thus, given the context of the epistle, the “word of righteousness” is the message of the person and work of Jesus Christ. It is the message that comes from the righteous One and produces righteousness in those who respond in faith. This message entails the teachings of Christ, His Apostles and Prophets,10 and the proper view of the Old Testament in light of the coming of the Messiah. In our contemporary context, it is the Scriptures, the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments upon which the Holy Spirit has placed His seal. We are called to become “accustomed” to this word spoken through Christ – to become well acquainted with the Scriptures. The way we become accustomed is through the “practice” of engaging the word.11 This produces the ability to “discern good and evil.”

Discernment is presented at the culmination of the admonition. Again, we must allow the context to speak to what the object of discernment, “good and evil,” meant to the original audience. Discerning of moral good and evil certainly comes through devotion to the word and is implied in this text, however “good and evil” has a more specific application in this passage. The Hebrew Christians who were being tempted to return to the terms of the Old Covenant knew the moral stipulations of the Law well. What they lacked, however, was the ability to discern what was permissible and what was forbidden now that age of Messianic salvation had arrived. They needed their “senses trained,” their rational faculties, through growing in the teachings of the New Covenant. This is in accordance with the overall intent of the epistle – to teach them what had been “bound” and what had been “loosed” under the terms of the New Covenant.12 Thus, the way to discernment was laid out: Become well-acquainted with the message of Christ and see all things through His perfect, completed work.

[b]What Maturity Produces[/b]
As we consider this admonition we do well to note the author’s central concern: The people of God are called to grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. He wasn’t calling them to move past or away from the Gospel. He still recognized that faith and repentance towards God was “foundational” (6:1). His desire was for the maturity of his readers in the Gospel.13 When we become well-acquainted with the sovereign power and sufficient work of Jesus Christ through the word, discernment is cultivated and deception is avoided. Be sure, the aim of maturity in the word of God is not simply the accumulation of academic knowledge. Rather, the aim is to become well-acquainted with the person and perfect work of Jesus Christ. The Scriptures, spanning from Genesis to Revelation, are the account of God’s purpose to save through His promise.14 And as Paul proclaimed regarding Jesus: “For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us” (2 Corinthians 1:20)

[b]Growing in the Word: The Way to Discernment[/b]
The applications that arise from Hebrews 5:12-14 are convicting. This passage speaks to the prime reason why discernment is lacking and deception is rampant in the church.
[u]We are failing to grow in the Spirit-led means of discernment – devotion to the word of God.[/u]

This passage indicts the seeker-sensitive streams of Christianity that strain out any difficult or deemed “offensive” Scriptures and thus neglect the whole counsel of God. This passage indicts the contemplative and emergent streams of Christianity that toss aside pure devotion to the word and place man-made practices and philosophies in its stead; thus neglecting the means God has chosen to train His people for godly living.

Ultimately, this passage reveals every believer’s urgent need to be trained for discernment through faithful devotion to the Scriptures.

Discernment comes through training. When Christians fall prey to deception we should not think it is because an automatic buzzer has failed to sound. Rather, it is because we fail to avail ourselves of what God has provided to train us in discernment. The thoughts, worldviews, and beliefs of this world have been embedded in our minds. This is every person’s “default position” until regeneration occurs. When we believe in the Gospel, the battle for our minds begins. Because of this reality, we are called to the transformation that comes through the power of the word: “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect” (Romans 12:2).

Since all of eternity will not exhaust the depths of the word of God, there certainly is no point in this life where we have “arrived,” where we may cease our growth through feeding upon God’s word. No matter where one is at in Christian maturity, we all need to continue to grow in the knowledge and grace of Jesus Christ. Doing so will train our senses for discernment and cause His word to be hidden in our hearts so we will not sin against our Savior.

May we all then heed the call that is for our own safety and spiritual growth:

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And this we will do, if God permits. (Hebrews 6:1-3)

Hi Diane, appreciate you expressing your thoughts.

Our problem began before Cain and Abel.

Cain "did it his way" as his mother did.

We're discussing man's desire since the fall, that's questioned, "Did God truly say?"

Eve then "added to the Word of God".

That desire for knowledge that we believe can go beyond "what is written" and to do 'religion' in a way that 'we' feel [i]comfortable[/i] with. To be as gods.
True, none of what is happening now is new - it was best displayed in Babel. Yet, this is New, at least in the sense that someone like Warren, for example, being so entrenched in global politics and with other groups of men sitting in the Oval Office or in Salt Lake City with our Vice President swaying the entire direction of this Nation into that one world governance that we've read would come 'one day' for as long as we've had an O.T..
This is more than philosophy - this is Global Governance.

That is what makes this different and what we lack is the Love of The Word.

I was blessed when reading why we lack 'discernment' in that piece by Ryan Habbena, because it gave the Solution - posted above.

We cannot just ignore it. We ourselves need to be transformed by the hearing of His Word, for ourselves, granted - but not by ignoring the times we are living in.

This thread was titled the Emerging Merger because that included, as you mentioned, the fact that this new rebellion, does affect Global Politics and is indeed forming the One World Religion.
As I've stated earlier - this is not about 'one false doctrine'.

Sis, we are in the last days. That is the Major point.

All that is on this thread is Biblically prophetic and not relieving ourselves of the need of a personal relationship (revival as some call it) with the LORD - we are still commanded to "Watch" and several times are told to "watch" for the purpose of not being "deceived" and to know 'what' HE warned that we should "come out of".

The thing we are to come out of, is called a "her".

The 'her' of His Own prophetic words, is what this thread is calling-out about - just as the many others are sounding the alarm on this and we're blessed to have such Watchmen and women that see what hour that we are living in.
Which 'generation'.

We watch as we work. We occupy until He comes. (All the 'doing' that you've mentioned.) Yet our greatest need is to KNOW HIM and that is by HIS Word.
We are to be as Gideon's men, who watched as they drank. There are no Scriptures that nullify those given by The LORD to 'watch', in order to know what to 'come out [i]of[/i]'.

The Lord knows them that are His.

I don't believe John MacArthur, Roger Oakland and the host of others are wasting their time, showing us where all of this and all of these various groups, both religious and secular are headed. And how they'll eventually be headed [i]at[/i] us - as Jesus said - "thinking they do God a service". They've already said so.

This is the call from the many, to come out of Babylon.
Yes, it's eschatological and few would say otherwise.

He told us to "watch".

For those who appreciate John MacArthur.

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/Topic/51

Hey Brother Jordan. I'd love to hear what you've gleaned from his book. I can't buy books, but I love when others can share with me, what they've gotten out of them.

Very neat! Thank you!

One feature of the Emergent Church that I've not heard discussed much is it's extremely narrow demographic. The movement is essentially attracting white middle class 20 something democrats. All in all, Emergent Christianity, despite the pretense at diversity and post-colonialism, seems to me to just another reason for suburban Christians to hold conferences. If Emergent Christianity was mobilizing diverse people groups from many economic and cultural backgrounds, we might have reason to be concerned. As it is it's main threat is not that it is constructing a global movement, but that it is a further deconstruction, yea decomposing, of the suburban church in America.

[b]The Emerging/Converging/Merging 'Global' Church[/b] - Excerpts [url=http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/tallskinnykiwi/2005/03/emergant2_count.html]from an Emergent website[/url] -

Kester Brewin sees emergent systems as being open systems, adaptable systems, learning systems, having distributed knowledge, and modelling servant leadership.“ From ”The Complex Christ: Signs of Emergence in the Urban Church“ ”Our minds may be wired to look for the pacemakers, but we are steadily learning how to think from the bottom up“ (Steve Johnson

The emerging church has fermented on the fringe of society. Over the past 40 years, and around the world, the alternative counterculture has been the context in which new forms of ministry have been birthed. Today, the movement is less alternative and increasingly mainstream, as a wider strata of young people adopt the new cultures. Although the countercultural values are still present.

In Chile, hip hop and hardcore culture have been influential in starting churches in Santiago, and the Christian festival Christock. I was told by a leader in Chile that his country was the first to produce a Christian rock band back in the 1970's. Many of these networks around Latin America gather yearly in Brazil at the festival called Encontro

From the Tribal Generation Brazil website: “New Generation or Urban Tribes is a global phenomenon where frontiers are not barriers, where the values are still being defined in a world called post modern. . . In EUA and Europe the phenomenon is called Emergent Generation and it is made of people that have their values and aims strongly influenced by a global world, adopting its new paradigms or trying to reject everything that the system means.”

In Japan, the “new tribe” of Japanese young people, often characterized by dying their hair a rust color, have been the group that have begun many of the emerging churches in their country among the punk and rave scene. This photo is taken of a young church planter when taught in Tokyo.

“Around the globe, the 18- to 35-year-olds are known as 'Generation X'; in Japan, they are called 'the new race'. Japan's ageing population structure contains over 50 million in this group. For the first time in Japanese history, the young generation no longer represent traditional culture. ”This also means that they are far easier to reach with the gospel than their parents' generation,“ says Fernandez. Japan's denominational churches are growing only slowly, or even shrinking, but many so-called 'third wave' churches are developing a cell-church strategy. The JCCN consists of around 200 churches, each of which has between 2 and 17 cells; these numbers are not very impressive for many countries, but for Japan, a minor revolution.” Source, Dawn Ministries

In Germany, the Jesus Freaks started their first church in 1991 among the punk and metal culture. They now have 80 churches in Germany and their yearly Freakstock Festival numbers 7000. And yet the alternative culture still flavors their ministry.

In Australia, the surfing culture in the late 60’s and early 70's gave birth to many new forms of ministries. Details are found in John Smith's doctoral dissertation (“The Origins, Nature, and Significance of the Jesus Movement as a Revitalization Movement”, 2002)

In Indonesia, street kids among the punk culture have been the first of those to receive Christ. In Norway, Subchurch and the “Disciple Punk” Festival was started among the same group.

On a simpler lever, ”Emergent Church“ or ”Emerging Church“ is the replacement term for what we used to call ”Youth Church“ in the 80’s, ”GenX Church“ in the early 90’s, and ”Postmodern Church“ in the late 90’s. This shift transcends the problem of associating the term with an age group, a cultural preference or a controversial and misunderstood philosophy. Many countries have adopted the term ”emerging church“ to represent the new networks of churches started by younger people among the new emerging cultures in their respective countries. Churches in the UK often use the name ”Alternative Worship“.

In UK, the alternative worship scene started among the rave culture (Nine O’Clock Service) and was also influenced by the punk scene. The early connection with the rave culture partially explains why UK had a head start on worship over USA.

In USA, the hippie culture of the 60’s birthed many new forms of church and ministry, most of which can be found today in the emerging church. The punk scene of the 70’s gave birth to more churches and eventually the Underground Railroad network of churches among punk, goth and metal cultures. In the mid 90's, many of the emerging ministries, including my own work among the postmodern subcultures in San Francisco, were connected to UR. FoundKids was a mid-nineties movement of rave kids who came to Jesus and ministered around the country. The Prodigal Project formed in the early nineties out of the hippie culture.

[b]A Global Counterculture.

The emerging culture is more than alternative - it is global.[/b]

In Colombia, we brought together emerging church leaders from Japan, USA, Germany and Latin America. We were surprised how connected they all were through their sports and music. The Japanese church had a hip-hop band, and the Californian church used a Karaoke machine for worship. The young black American was a fan of the Colombian soccer team. The Japanese leader was recently at a countercultural youth church in Norway, which is heavily influenced by Japanese Manga comics, and the Norwegian church has sent their hard-core band to Japan where that scene is hugely influential.

These connections are quite normal. Churches around the world may share cultural similarities with each other, and yet differ dramatically from the traditional church on their same street. The connections seem to happen randomly, culturally, or through relationships.

At the recent ”Global Roundtable for Emerging Church“ held in UK (Aug 2004) emerging church leaders from almost a dozen countries agreed that the name is helpful and should be kept for the time being. Although not everyone finds the term helpful. Mirko, one of the leaders of Jesus Freaks International, doesn't like the word ”emerging church“ but prefers to call his network of 80 churches simply ”churches“.
I have toyed with other words in the blog post When We Stop Emerging, and summed up in my final comment.. I also listened to other words that might work better. Taking into consideration the idea of ”submergence“ (incarnational evangelism) I suggested this:

1. Emergence - as the new [church] is birthed, takes shape and defines itself against the old, dead or dying.
2. Divergence - as the new [church] defines itself in relation to the One/Established/Dominant, caresses the edges of culture to find justice and to realign previous imbalances.
3.Convergence - as the new [church] finds its place alongside the residual, finds definition by comparison rather than contrast, seeks to aggregate rather than agitate, harmonize rather than homogenise, and to create vocabulary not for itself but rather for the newly-created, holistic, complex system of church-life that has developed around and including what was previously called emerging.” From 'Emerge, Diverge, Converge'

Although we may disagree on the vocabulary, we are all agreed that words have a short life span and we are flexible enough to drop the name if we decide it best.

[b]How Global - Part One of Three Pages -[/b]

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/peace-un.htm

[b]Next -[/b]

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/TwoSummits.htm

[b]And -[/b]
The fact that Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral is hosting this Rethink conference is particularly relevant in light of his close association with Rick Warren, a relationship discussed in detail in Warren Smith's book Deceived On Purpose. Kay Warren is one of the "Leading Inflencers" invited to make a presentation at the conference. Note that many Emergent/Emerging church leaders, such as Erwin McManus are also presenting.
http://www.rethinkconference.com/content/blogcategory/3/14/

Hi dear Brother. I understand fully how deceptive it has been, in a sense, to only call this movement "emergent".

As you well noted - whatever an individual or corporate group decide to call themselves - it is the 'direction' that counts.

To be Global [i]is[/i] the direction, but not just 'religiously' speaking.

They are 'one' in the sense that they must change this world into what only God claims that HE will do at His Coming and that is to bring PEACE, Harmony, Unity, solve the problems of the world (though I'm a strong proponent of peace and feeding the hungry and stopping man's inhumanity to man) but the 'emergent' are pushing Jesus' return further and further from the minds of the people, as other posts have shown some of their views on Eschatology.

The only reason I've gone this far, is only because I've had years of time to research each step. Nothing about me - just being homebound gives that opportunity - nothing more. And those links have really been the ones who have done the true work.

The main point being, that this is Very Political Brother.

To the best of my ability, I'm trying to slowly post the "connecting dots" that I've followed for these years - like "Clinton's Initiative" - just for one, that has been quietly working, feverishly over these years.
And yes, you have nailed it - it [i]is[/i] Babylon - which is "Religion 'merged' with Politics".
Thank you dear Brother for seeing that. LORD knows, others could say it much better than me, but just last night I read again those words, "the Clarion call" regarding this Merger.

LORD Bless you!!
________________________________________________

[url=http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/][b]The so-called "God's Politics".[/b][/url]

[i]"The monologue of the Religious Right is over and a new conversation has begun! Join the God's Politics dialogue with Jim Wallis and friends Brian McLaren, Diana Butler Bass, Becky Garrison, Gareth Higgins, Shane Claiborne, Mary Nelson, Gabriel Salguero, Tony Campolo, and others.

First, in what TIME magazine has called "a leveling of the praying field" the Democrats now speak as much about faith and values as the Republicans do. For example, it has been the Democratic presidential candidates who have devoted the most time in outreach to faith communities in the early primary states of Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina - not the Republicans. We have seen top level faith outreach operations as central to the Democratic candidates' campaign strategies and decision-making, their "faith forums" in primary states, newsletters on family and values, and even gospel music tours. All three Democratic front-runners have spoken quite comfortably about their personal faith and its relationship to public life in national forums and debates, at religious institutions and congregations, and in media interviews. Hillary Clinton and John Edwards frequently speak of their history as committed lay persons in their denomination and know the religious community as their own; and Barack Obama sometimes sounds like a public theologian. All three, as well as other Democratic candidates, have explicitly connected their faith to a broad range of issues from poverty to health care, criminal justice, HIV/AIDS, human rights, and to war and peace.
In a striking contrast this year, the Republican Party, which has so associated itself with religion and "values voters" in recent years, has had a serious "God and marriage problem," as many have pointed out. Several of the Republican frontrunners like John McCain, Rudy Giuliani, and Fred Thompson have often seemed uncomfortable and awkward when the language of faith comes up, and, as many have noted, the only one among the early Republican frontrunners with a history of just one wife was the Mormon, Mitt Romney, whose minority religion is suspect among many conservative evangelicals. The candidate with the strongest Christian identity, former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, couldn't get the backing of the key leaders of Religious Right and finally surged to the top tier by appealing on his own to the grassroots religious base of the party in places like Iowa and South Carolina. The contrast from 2004, when many in the GOP were describing theirs as "God's own party," is quite stunning.

It is now much clearer that "God is not a Republican or a Democrat," as our bumper sticker from the last campaign read; and that is a good thing. There should be no religious litmus tests for politics - committed Christians will, and should be, on both sides of the political aisle. Indeed, people of faith should never be in any party's or candidate's political pocket and should, ideally, be the ultimate swing vote because of their moral independence from partisan politics. Let's all try to remember that this political year."[/i]

[b]The "faith based" and Political [i]are[/i] Merging.[/b]

This is no small "ORG". It has been said that this [i]Initiative[/i] will over-ride the U.N. if their vision is not fulfilled by the U.N. -

http://attend.clintonglobalinitiative.org/home.nsf/pt_religion_conflict

[b]The Faith-Based Connection[/b]

http://pewforum.org/religion08/compare.php?Issue=Faith__Based_Initiatives

Amen Sis.

And - where have ya been - have missed you!

His Love to you.

Brother Mike, I was just over to the [url=http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/]"god's Politics"[/url] site and at the bottom of the page, hit "News", thinking it would be the Blog's News, but it was "Belief Net's".

I remember when I first found "Belief Net" and couldn't find 'Christianity', in it's truest sense, on there.

http://www.beliefnet.com/index/index_400.html

Brother, thank you for praying with us over these things. Prayer is precious and souls are being released from the plans & schemes of man and Beast, into the protective Arms of our Savior. I see Jesus' prayer in John 17 happening, despite that His Own are in the minority, compared to what we've read so far.

Many in the Valley of Decision are being saved from this strong delusion - 2 Thess 2.

GOD Bless you and yours and this Family of His Faith, that we're Blessed to be a part of. Amen!

[b]JESUS[/b]

[i]Very[/i] Good Brother. :-D

Could it be that once we have something figured out, it ceases to be an issue?

Hi Diane. Yes, if we were just dealing with post-modernism here or even just any other 'ism', it would definitely have not been more than a two page thread.

With the Global-Political aspect of this many tenticled formation that we're looking at here - just to get a handle on the P.E.A.C.E. plan, is just scraping the tip of the iceberg.

Exactly. He Who is the Truth is guide. Amen!

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

We have nothing to define ourselves except what others see of Christ in us.

Hi Diane. I quoted just that sentence because it isn't what defines us.
The Theosophists are more "loving" than we are. The New Agers are more "loving" than we are - just for two, who use the name "Christ".

Here are just a very few examples of those who are waiting for "the coming of Christ" ...

http://www.spiritofgoodwill.org/divine_love.asp

http://www.anandavala.info/TASTMOTNOR/TCOTCC.html#word

http://www.bizcharts.com/stoa_del_sol/logos/logos_5.html

What will ultimately define 'us' eventually, will be our Eschatology.

Hi Diane - I think asking the Lord, what does He see, is safest. Sometimes He'll use a good friend to help also.

If I may borrow your phrase, "What do they [i]see[/i]?" .....
I just read a post at RS that finished me off for feeling sick tonite.

Actually, if the person wasn't wise enough to put a disclaimer in the beginning of it - I fear some would get all happy over some of these quotes.

Anyhow, Moderator-Lynn posted this for good reasons, but it did actually make me want to call it a day. Though the ending by Philpot was very good, of course.

Yet still, after seeing the rest of it, as the old folks would say, "I've had it up to here now." ... whatever that meant. :-?

http://revivalschool.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=8738

Have a Great Sunday!
With His Love.

Hi Brother Mike, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to bounce off of a part of what you've said last.
This "eschatological cosmic conflict".

If we could just change that word cosmic, to heavenly - I'd like to use your words.
Basically just in outline form.

There are three scenes in my mind.... Chronologically - Eden, Job and Abraham.

First, the choice they had between the tree of knowledge and the tree of Life (representative of Christ)
That was battle #1.
Then the promise of the seed of the woman.
From Eve came Cain and Abel. Again the choice to do it God's way or man's own way.

Then Chpt. 1 of Job - a man who followed God in every way - "righteous".
Satan came to GOD and tries to make bets with God over Job.
By Job's own choice, God won through Job.

So far, all men's choice, to Love Redeemer God or not.

Thirdly - Abraham. The LORD promises through Abraham the seed - Christ.
And that Abraham's offspring shall be His people. The people of promise and by faith.

The time that He will 'have' those people as intended; who loved Him by choice - will be at The End.

So yes, it's not over until it's over. The battles of these stories above will continue until Then.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We are in that battle and will be until we see Him. That is the whole point of the entire Book ~ The Ending ~ The Grand Finale.

[color=CC3333]Synopsis ~

[i]Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign forever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea, for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened ........................................................................

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone ......

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire............................

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And He said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. [/i][/color]

The End is when the purpose of why He created man, will be fulfilled.
When He and we conquer in this battle, that began in the heavenlies.
We'll be His and He with us, for all eternity from that point on.
That is why there are three times as many Scriptures about His Second Coming as there were about His First. [but only the 3 Wise men caught the signs [i]then[/i]. ]

The End is what is on His mind. For the Joy set before Him. For and until That Day - we and the forces against us, wage this battle - until His Return. Even those seen under the Alter - pray for this End. And also, all of creation groans and travails in pain for that Day. When all things will be restored and completed.

That is why Satan hates eschatology so badly. And those who change this story {Dominionism, Etc.} - fear this final battle.

[color=CC3333]1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love [for Him] casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.[/color]

http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/all_that_glitters_is_not_gold.htm

Here's an article and a movement we may have all forgotten. Where and what are these today?

Ism's cause schisms,
And Movements shall pass
But the Word of the Lord will endure forever!

Love in Christ
Katy

Excellent thoughts Brother. I knew what you were saying, and wanted to borrow from them.
The links on the last page speak of this "cosmic christ" and what you have said, of where all of this is leading.

Lewis was correct. I listen to NPR and the BBC comes on there at nite.
They don't fluff the Christians on there - so I like to hear the "in your face - this is what we're doing" type News and views they give.

Thursday, I believe it was, they had a round table discussion with representatives of several major religions and one from the atheistic persuasion.
They were discussing (as on Clinton's Initiative and the "Faith House" sites), the role and future of religion in our future.

The question that stood out to me towards the end was, "Where does atheism stand in our future?" - The atheist didn't get a chance to answer - it was given to the one lady and ended with her answer - 'that man must satisfy that "transcendental" side of his make-up and that is how we will have to go.' Bingo! None of the others disagreed.

I've wondered the same thing consistently - How would any of those who are Authors on here, who are now in Heaven, react to this merge?

Thank you Brother and Thank you Katy for adding that link.

Blessings back at ya's!

[url=http://herescope.blogspot.com/][b]UPDATE on Oprah Winfrey,
Marianne Williamson and A Course in Miracles*[/b][/url]

On New Year’s Day, New Age leader Marianne Williamson got the new year off to a rousing start on Oprah & Friends XM Radio as she began to systematically teach the New Age principles of A Course in Miracles. While most of the Christian world was relaxing, Williamson was hard at work teaching A Course in Miracles on her radio show. Her program, which now airs each weekday for an hour, is completely devoted to teaching A Course in Miracles. Both Oprah Winfrey and Marianne Williamson have openly stated that they believe the principles of A Course in Miracles can change the world.(1)

As previously posted on this site, A Course in Miracles is reputedly “new revelation” from “Jesus,” channeled through a university professor in New York City by the name of Helen Schucman. A Course in Miracles is actually the Bible turned upside-down, as it teaches that “a slain Christ has no meaning” and that “the journey to the cross should be the last useless journey.” Its teachings state that “there is no sin” and that “the recognition of God is the recognition of yourself.”

Kicking off the new year in high gear, Williamson cleverly avoided any direct reference to biblical Christianity when she stated that over the coming months on her program she would be methodically “dismantling a thought system based on fear.” She emphasized that the dismantled thought system would be replaced by “a thought system based on love” – a thought system that would be inspired by the New Age teachings of A Course in Miracles.

[i]In introducing A Course in Miracles to her Oprah & Friends listeners, Williamson was careful not to alienate anyone as she skillfully avoided discussing the origin of A Course in Miracles: how it was dictated to Helen Schucman from an “inner voice” claiming to be "Jesus.” Nor did Williamson describe how the ambivalent Schucman never fully believed in the teachings she channeled. Schucman confessed, “I resented the material I was taking down, and was strongly impelled to attack it and prove it wrong” and “I do not understand the events that led up to the writing. I do not understand the process and I certainly don’t understand the authorship.[/i](2)

Most faith-contending Christians are familiar with Jesus’ warnings in the Bible that describe how a powerful end-times deception will arise from false prophets and false christs that come in Jesus’ name and shall deceive many:

Unfortunately, Marianne Williamson and Oprah Winfrey are either unaware of, or choose to disregard, Jesus’ warnings in the Bible. They also overlook other scriptures like 2 Corinthians 11:4 that warn about spiritual imposters who call themselves “Jesus,” yet teach “another gospel” and have “another spirit.” Williamson and Winfrey apparently do not know or take seriously the 1 Timothy 4:1 warning that in the last days “seducing spirits” will introduce false doctrines – like A Course in Miracles – that are described as “doctrines of devils.”

When Marianne Williamson stated on her New Year’s Day program that the chief purpose of A Course in Miracles “is the dismantling of a thought system based on fear,” she was clearly referring to dismantling the traditional teachings of biblical Christianity.
According to A Course in Miracles and the New Age/New Spirituality, the Bible is a fear-based thought system because it preaches an "angry" and "wrathful God.”
Also, in the upside-down worldview of the New Age, it is “fearful” and “unloving” to deny the divinity of humanity and to not see everyone as “God” and “Christ.”

But, while the Bible states that we are to always love and forgive others, it also states that God is God and we are not Him or a part of Him. The recognition of God is not the recognition of yourself. Contrary to the teachings of the New Age and A Course in Miracles – and even some Christian leaders – God is not “in” everything.

Besides authoring books and hosting a radio program for Oprah Winfrey, Marianne Williamson also co-founded the Global Renaissance Alliance with Conversations with God author Neale Donald Walsch – a man who claims he has had direct communications from “God.” Their former organization of New Age leaders is now called the Peace Alliance. Walsch indirectly stated that the only thing hindering the “paradigm shift” to their New Age worldview and the attainment of world peace are those people still subscribing to a fear-based worldview. Walsch’s “God” states that this fear-based thought system is humanity’s “greatest enemy.” Cleverly avoiding the use of anything directly denoting Christian believers, Walsch’s “God” defines “fear” as the thought system of those who collectively oppose his New Age concepts:

[i]"But the paradigm shift will take great wisdom, great courage, and massive determination. For Fear will strike at the heart of these concepts and call them false. Fear will eat at the core of these magnificent truths and make them appear hollow. Fear will distort, disdain, destroy. And so Fear will be your greatest enemy.
Neale Donald Walsch, Conversations with God: Book 2, page 242.[/i]

As Marianne Williamson uses A Course in Miracles to teach her Oprah & Friends listeners how to
systematically dismantle the supposedly fear-based worldview of biblical Christianity in 2008, the big question is this: will Christian leaders contend for their faith as passionately as Marianne Williamson,Oprah Winfrey, and other New Age leaders are contending for their New Age beliefs?
With Marianne Williamson and Oprah & Friends widely trumpeting the teachings of A Course in Miracles, the New Age has laid down its gauntlet for the new year. Isn’t it about time for Christian leaders to move out of their denial concerning the New Age? Isn't it about time for Christian leaders to start contending for the faith?

In the meantime, put on the whole armour of God and stand fast in the truth as you defend your faith in what promises to be a challenging new year.

[i]*Today's post is authored by Warren Smith. For more information on the topics covered in today's post, see Warren Smith's book Deceived on Purpose, especially chapter 8, which explains the errors of the New Age doctrine that God is "in" everything. For a better understanding of the dangers of the teachings of A Course in Miracles, read about Warren Smith's experiences while studying the Course in his personal testimony The Light that was Dark.
For background information on Oprah Winfrey, Marianne Williamson, A Course in Miracles, their New Age friends and [url=http://www.thepeacealliance.org/]Global PEACE[/url] agendas, read -
[url=http://www.reinventingjesuschrist.com/]Reinventing Jesus Christ[/url] which is posted online.[/i]

[url=http://mfp-dop.org/pipermail/newsletter_mfp-dop.org/2007-July/000000.html]Peace -
Alliances and Initiatives merged with U.N..[/url]
_____________________________________________________________________________________

[b]"Reconciliation"[/b]

Rick Warren, Robert Schuller, Tony Jones, Brian McLaren, Leith Anderson, Jim Wallis, and other evangelical leaders have signed onto a common ground document to work with Muslims for world peace.
This fact sheds considerable light on the potential agenda of Robert Schuller's upcoming
[url=http://www.rethinkconference.com/]Rethink Conference[/url].
And it may explain Rick Warren's
[url=http://herescope.blogspot.com/2006/11/obama-at-saddleback-new-politics.html]strange foray into Syria[/url].

For the world's major religions to find "common ground" or [url=http://herescope.blogspot.com/2007/10/latest-p-reconciliation.html]"reconciliation"[/url]
with one another requires a substantial rethinking on the part of evangelical Christians.
And finding "common ground" requires building consensus: i.e., syncretism and ecumenism.

The background for this breaking story is
summarized [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Common_Word]here[/url].
Last weekend (November 18th) a statement was run in the New York Times, bringing this common ground document to the attention of the public at large.
A November 18th press release about this event can be found at the Yale Divinity School's
[url=http://www.yale.edu/faith/]Center for Faith & Culture[/url], which has masterminded this effort to
promote reconciliation between faiths "in all [url=http://herescope.blogspot.com/2007/06/neo-kuyperian-spheres.html]spheres[/url] of life."

[i]Now, Warren is building a PEACE Coalition of partners that includes the government and NGOs and businesses in addition to churches. The "P" in PEACE 2.0 now stands for "Promote reconciliation" while churches will continue to focus on planting churches.[/i]
--Lillian Kwon, "Rick Warren Launches New Plan to Multiply Impact Worldwide," Christian Post, 10/17/07

McLaren devotes an entire chapter to this "reconciliation" concept (Chapter 12: "Hiding the Message in New Places"). He describes the shed blood of Christ as achieving "lasting reconciliation between humanity and God," but then goes a step further to apply it to "all the at-odds individuals and groups that comprise humanity." The focus shifts from Christ to reconciling relationships between "at-odds" groups of people. [i]"Today, he [Jesus] might speak of reconciliation of the war veteran with the pacifist protester. The tattooed and pierced granddaughter with her prim and proper grandmother. The Orthodox with the Catholics, and Pentecostals with Baptists. Christians with Jews and Muslims and Hindus. Tutsi with Hutu and both with Twa. Right-wing Republicans with left-wing Democrats. Believers with doubters."[/i] (pp. 99-100)

[i]The church must show the world the true path to peace.
The planet's power elite will never find it on their own.
How do open church people find peace?
Through reconciliation to the triune God of peace and to each other.[/i]

--James Rutz, Megashift: Igniting Spiritual Power (Empowerment Press, 2005), p. 163

[i]"In fact, reconciliation is now happening on a large scale between historic factions in the church.
At reconciliation gatherings cross the U.S., repentance and confession of past wrongs has occurred between whites and blacks, anglos and native Americans, men and women, etc.
These events are major building blocks in the coming U.S. revival." [/i]

--James Rutz, Megashift: Igniting Spiritual Power (Empowerment Press, 2005), p. 163

Found another article worth the read and another good on-line book.

[url=http://herescope.blogspot.com/2006/08/one-world-one-faith-one-plan.html]"One World-One Faith - One Plan"[/url]

[url=http://www.inthenameofpurpose.org/page2.html]On-line book - "In the name of Purpose"[/url]

Edit: Make that two articles - Update - not good news - from - http://www.understandthetimes.org/

[b]The Collapse Of The Emerging Church And The Kingdom Of God[/b]

Comment From Understand The Times:

Expect to see another new wave of deception on the spiritual horizon. A concealed iceberg is about to surface. [See [url=http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2008/01/in-search-of-a-label-by-brian.html]BeliefNet Article] [/url]

In the upcoming campaign for a new American president, a coalition of pastors heading up social gospel megachurches, Dominionist Pentecostals, Reconstructionists, and naive Evangelicals will surface planning to take the "kingdom" for Jesus.

These enthusiastic leaders lack spiritual discernment and have no concept of the nearness of the coming of Jesus Christ. They are being drawn into the idea of building the "Kingdom of God" so that Christ can return to a converted earth at some future time.

Similar to Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven" Christianity, the social gospel will be in the forefront for this new alliance of kingdom builders. Those opposing such a view will be considered "narrow-minded," "old-fashioned," "crackpots" who spend more time thinking about the "rapture" than they do about doing good unto others.

Also, I believe we can expect to see the emerging church movement fragmenting and polarizing. A few leaders who have been duped by emergent leaders will see the light and withdraw- others of course, will not. Those who continue down the emerging path will become the pied-pipers of the social gospel program that leads the unsuspecting further towards Rome and Babylon.

The following two items will help you to see what is coming.

The Great Awakening
http://www.powells.com/biblio/9780060558291?&PID=29218

The Collapse of the Emerging Church
http://www.emergentvillage.com/weblog/2008-and-the-collapse-of-the-emerging-church

The last posts on page 11 and a few others scattered through-out this thread, have introduced political candidates into this 'merger'. The only two mentioned were both, Mr. Obama and Ms. Clinton, who are pro-globalism and pro-U.N..
I have no interest in "politics", but I have always had this burden to watch -

[b]Eschatology & ONE WORLD GOVERNANCE-RELIGION[/b]

Quotes:

"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." James Paul Warburg, son of Paul Warburg, who was active in the United World Federalists for a World Government, stated before the U.S. Senate, February 17, 1950.

David Rockefeller
(1915- ) Internationalist billionaire, CFR, founder of the Trilateralist Commission.
"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries." David Rockefeller... Baden-Baden, Germany 1991

"This present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for too long - We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
-David Rockefeller speaking at the UN, Sept. 1994.

"We are not going to achieve a new world order without paying for it in blood as well as in words and money." Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., in Foreign Affairs (July/August 1995)

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order [referring to the 1991 LA Riot]. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond [i.e., an "extraterrestrial" invasion], whether real or *promulgated* [emphasis mine], that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this *scenario*, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government." Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991

"The real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, state and nation. Like the octopus of real life, it operates under cover of a self created screen....At the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both political parties." New York City Mayor John F. Hylan, 1922

"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." James Paul Warburg, son of Paul Warburg, who was active in the United World Federalists for a World Government, stated before the U.S. Senate, February 17, 1950.

"Humanity needs world order. The fully sovereign nation is incapable of dealing with the poisoning of the environment... The management of the planet...requires a world government." Norman Cousins (CRF), long-time president of the United World Federalists (not the World Federalist Association), on Earth Day, April 22, 70.

"By the end of this decade [by the year 2000] we will live under the first One World Government that has ever existed in the society of nations ... a government with the absolute authority to decide the basic issues of human survival. One world government is inevitable." Pope John Paul II as quoted by Malachi Martin, a Roman Catholic priest in his book, The Keys To This Blood.

"We are on the verge of global transformation. All we need is the right major crises and the nation will accept the New World Order." David Rockefeller.

From a Preliminary Draft of a World Constitution, 1950, authored by CFR globalists Robert M. Hutchins, Rexford G. Tugwell, and others. This world constitution, introduced in Congress by Senator Glen Taylor, declared that "iniquity and war inseparably spring from the competitive anarchy of the national states; that therefore the age of nations must end." It was also held that the nations must "surrender their arms" to the proposed "Federal Republic of the World."

"The New World Order will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down...but in the end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece will accomplish much more than the old fashioned frontal assault." CFR member Richard Gardner, writing in the April l974 issue of the CFR's journal, Foreign Affairs.

"The planning of UN can be traced to the 'secret steering committee' established by Secretary [of State Cordell] Hull in January 1943. All of the members of this secret committee, with the exception of Hull, a Tennessee politician, were members of the Council on Foreign Relations. They saw Hull regularly to plan, select, and guide the labors of the [State] Department's Advisory Committee. It was, in effect, the coordinating agency for all the State Department's postwar planning." Professors Laurence H. Shoup and William Minter, writing in their study of the CFR, "Imperial Brain Trust: The CFR and United States Foreign Policy." (Monthly Review Press, 1977).

"The most powerful clique in these (CFR) groups have one objective in common: they want to bring about the surrender of the sovereignty and the national independence of the U.S. They want to end national boundaries and racial and ethnic loyalties supposedly to increase business and ensure world peace. What they strive for would inevitably lead to dictatorship and loss of freedoms by the people. The CFR was founded for "the purpose of promoting disarmament and submergence of U.S. sovereignty and national independence into an all-powerful one-world government." Harpers, July l958

"The old world order changed when this war-storm broke. The old international order passed away as suddenly, as unexpectedly, and as completely as if it had been wiped out by a gigantic flood, by a great tempest, or by a volcanic eruption. The old world order died with the setting of that day's sun and a new world order is being born while I speak, with birth-pangs so terrible that it seems almost incredible that life could come out of such fearful suffering and such overwhelming sorrow." Nicholas Murray Butler, in an address delivered before the Union League of Philadelphia, Nov. 27, 1915

"The peace conference has assembled. It will make the most momentous decisions in history, and upon these decisions will rest the stability of the new world order and the future peace of the world." M. C. Alexander, Executive Secretary of the American Association for International Conciliation, in a subscription letter for the periodical International Conciliation (1919)

"If there are those who think we are to jump immediately into a new world order, actuated by complete understanding and brotherly love, they are doomed to disappointment. If we are ever to approach that time, it will be after patient and persistent effort of long duration. The present international situation of mistrust and fear can only be corrected by a formula of equal status, continuously applied, to every phase of international contacts, until the cobwebs of the old order are brushed out of the minds of the people of all lands." Dr. Augustus O. Thomas, president of the World Federation of Education Associations (August 1927), quoted in the book International Understanding: Agencies Educating for a New World (1931)

"... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world social democracy, there may still be very great delays and disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world system. Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people." H. G. Wells, in his book entitled The New World Order (1939)

"The term Internationalism has been popularized in recent years to cover an interlocking financial, political, and economic world force for the purpose of establishing a World Government. Today Internationalism is heralded from pulpit and platform as a 'League of Nations' or a 'Federated Union' to which the United States must surrender a definite part of its National Sovereignty. The World Government plan is being advocated under such alluring names as the 'New International Order,' 'The New World Order,' 'World Union Now,' 'World Commonwealth of Nations,' 'World Community,' etc. All the terms have the same objective; however, the line of approach may be religious or political according to the taste or training of the individual." Excerpt from A Memorial to be Addressed to the House of Bishops and the House of Clerical and Lay Deputies of the Protestant Episcopal Church in General Convention (October 1940)

"In the first public declaration on the Jewish question since the outbreak of the war, Arthur Greenwood, member without portfolio in the British War Cabinet, assured the Jews of the United States that when victory was achieved an effort would be made to found a new world order based on the ideals of 'justice and peace.'" Excerpt from article entitled "New World Order Pledged to Jews," in The New York Times (October 1940)

"If totalitarianism wins this conflict, the world will be ruled by tyrants, and individuals will be slaves. If democracy wins, the nations of the earth will be united in a commonwealth of free peoples, and individuals, wherever found, will be the sovereign units of the new world order." The Declaration of the Federation of the World, produced by the Congress on World Federation, adopted by the Legislatures of North Carolina (1941), New Jersey (1942), Pennsylvania (1943), and possibly other states.

"New World Order Needed for Peace: State Sovereignty Must Go, Declares Notre Dame Professor"
Title of article in The Tablet (Brooklyn) (March 1942)

"Undersecretary of State Sumner Welles tonight called for the early creation of an international organization of anti-Axis nations to control the world during the period between the armistice at the end of the present war and the setting up of a new world order on a permanent basis." Text of article in The Philadelphia Inquirer (June 194

"The statement went on to say that the spiritual teachings of religion must become the foundation for the new world order and that national sovereignty must be subordinate to the higher moral law of God." American Institute of Judaism, excerpt from article in The New York Times (December 1942)

"There are some plain common-sense considerations applicable to all these attempts at world planning. They can be briefly stated: 1. To talk of blueprints for the future or building a world order is, if properly understood, suggestive, but it is also dangerous. Societies grow far more truly than they are built. A constitution for a new world order is never like a blueprint for a skyscraper." Norman Thomas, in his book What Is Our Destiny? (1944)

"He [John Foster Dulles] stated directly to me that he had every reason to believe that the Governor [Thomas E. Dewey of New York] accepts his point of view and that he is personally convinced that this is the policy that he would promote with great vigor if elected. So it is fair to say that on the first round the Sphinx of Albany has established himself as a prima facie champion of a strong and definite new world order." Excerpt from article by Ralph W. Page in The Philadelphia Bulletin (May 1944)

"Alchemy for a New World Order" Article by Stephen John Stedman in Foreign Affairs (May/June 1995)

"The United Nations, he told an audience at Harvard University, 'has not been able--nor can it be able--to shape a new world order which events so compellingly demand.' ... The new world order that will answer economic, military, and political problems, he said, 'urgently requires, I believe, that the United States take the leadership among all free peoples to make the underlying concepts and aspirations of national sovereignty truly meaningful through the federal approach.'" Gov. Nelson Rockefeller of New York, in an article entitled "Rockefeller Bids Free Lands Unite: Calls at Harvard for Drive to Build New World Order" -- The New York Times (February 1962)

"The developing coherence of Asian regional thinking is reflected in a disposition to consider problems and loyalties in regional terms, and to evolve regional approaches to development needs and to the evolution of a new world order." Richard Nixon, in Foreign Affairs (October 1967)

"He [President Nixon] spoke of the talks as a beginning, saying nothing more about the prospects for future contacts and merely reiterating the belief he brought to China that both nations share an interest in peace and building 'a new world order.'" Excerpt from an article in The New York Times (February 1972)

"If instant world government, Charter review, and a greatly strengthened International Court do not provide the answers, what hope for progress is there? The answer will not satisfy those who seek simple solutions to complex problems, but it comes down essentially to this: The hope for the foreseeable lies, not in building up a few ambitious central institutions of universal membership and general jurisdiction as was envisaged at the end of the last war, but rather in the much more decentralized, disorderly and pragmatic process of inventing or adapting institutions of limited jurisdiction and selected membership to deal with specific problems on a case-by-case basis ... In short, the 'house of world order' will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down. It will look like a great 'booming, buzzing confusion,' to use William James' famous description of reality, but an end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece, will accomplish much more than the old-fashioned frontal assault." Richard N. Gardner, in Foreign Affairs (April 1974)

"The existing order is breaking down at a very rapid rate, and the main uncertainty is whether mankind can exert a positive role in shaping a new world order or is doomed to await collapse in a passive posture. We believe a new order will be born no later than early in the next century and that the death throes of the old and the birth pangs of the new will be a testing time for the human species." Richard A. Falk, in an article entitled "Toward a New World Order: Modest Methods and Drastic Visions," in the book On the Creation of a Just World Order (1975)

"My country's history, Mr. President, tells us that it is possible to fashion unity while cherishing diversity, that common action is possible despite the variety of races, interests, and beliefs we see here in this chamber. Progress and peace and justice are attainable. So we say to all peoples and governments: Let us fashion together a new world order." Henry Kissinger, in address before the General Assembly of the United Nations, October 1975)

"At the old Inter-American Office in the Commerce Building here in Roosevelt's time, as Assistant Secretary of State for Latin American Affairs under President Truman, as chief whip with Adlai Stevenson and Tom Finletter at the founding of the United Nations in San Francisco, Nelson Rockefeller was in the forefront of the struggle to establish not only an American system of political and economic security but a new world order." Part of article in The New York Times (November 1975)

"A New World Order" Title of article on commencement address at the University of Pennsylvania by Hubert H. Humphrey, printed in the Pennsylvania Gazette (June 1977)

"Further global progress is now possible only through a quest for universal consensus in the movement towards a new world order." Mikhail Gorbachev, in an address at the United Nations (December 1988)

"We believe we are creating the beginning of a new world order coming out of the collapse of the U.S.-Soviet antagonisms." Brent Scowcroft (August 1990), quoted in The Washington Post (May 1991)

"We can see beyond the present shadows of war in the Middle East to a new world order where the strong work together to deter and stop aggression. This was precisely Franklin Roosevelt's and Winston Churchill's vision for peace for the post-war period." Richard Gephardt, in The Wall Street Journal (September 1990)

"If we do not follow the dictates of our inner moral compass and stand up for human life, then his lawlessness will threaten the peace and democracy of the emerging new world order we now see, this long dreamed-of vision we've all worked toward for so long." President George Bush (January 1991)

"But it became clear as time went on that in Mr. Bush's mind the New World Order was founded on a convergence of goals and interests between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, so strong and permanent that they would work as a team through the U.N. Security Council." Excerpt from A. M. Rosenthal, in The New York Times (January 1991)

"I would support a Presidential candidate who pledged to take the following steps: ... At the end of the war in the Persian Gulf, press for a comprehensive Middle East settlement and for a 'new world order' based not on Pax Americana but on peace through law with a stronger U.N. and World Court." George McGovern, in The New York Times (February 199

"... it's Bush's baby, even if he shares its popularization with Gorbachev. Forget the Hitler 'new order' root; F.D.R. used the phrase earlier." William Safire, in The New York Times (February 1991)

"How I Learned to Love the New World Order" Article by Sen. Joseph R. Biden, Jr. in The Wall Street Journal (April 1992)

"How to Achieve The New World Order" Title of book excerpt by Henry Kissinger, in Time magazine (March 1994)

"The Final Act of the Uruguay Round, marking the conclusion of the most ambitious trade negotiation of our century, will give birth - in Morocco - to the World Trade Organization, the third pillar of the New World Order, along with the United Nations and the International Monetary Fund." Part of full-page advertisement by the government of Morocco in The New York Times (April 1994)

"New World Order: The Rise of the Region-State" Title of article by Kenichi Ohmae, political reform leader in Japan, in The Wall Street Journal (August 1994)

"The new world order that is in the making must focus on the creation of a world of democracy, peace and prosperity for all." Nelson Mandela, in The Philadelphia Inquirer (October 1994)

"The renewal of the nonproliferation treaty was described as important "for the welfare of the whole world and the new world order." President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, in The New York Times (April 1995)
In 1960, Rhodes Scholar Walt Whitman Rostow (CFR) declared that urgent imperatives "argue strongly for movement in the direction of federalized world organization under effective international law" and for "effective international control of military power." The real world problem , said Rostow, is "national sovereignty," and "it is therefore an American interest to see an end to nationhood as it has been historically defined." Rostow held a top spot in the Kennedy State Department.

"Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity.... Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed...." Jeremiah 51:6, 8.

"The overt and covert organs of the Vatican and British Empires are locked in mortal combat for control of the world." The Project, A-Albionic Research.

"The Rothschild-Rockefeller conflict is over who will be boss in the New World Order, not what the parameters of that Order will be. The New World Order cannot be realized until their relative positions in the hierarchy are decided. Conspiracy Digest, Summer 76, p. 8.

"The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power political, monetary, intellectual and [u]ecclesiastical[/u]. What the Trilateral Commission intends is to create a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nationstates involved. As managers and creators of the system, they will rule the future." U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater in his l964 book: With No Apologies.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements, arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was the Bank for International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the worlds' central banks which were themselves private corporations. The growth of financial capitalism made possible a centralization of world economic control and use of this power for the direct benefit of financiers and the indirect injury of all other economic groups." Tragedy and Hope: A History of The World in Our Time (Macmillan Company, 1966,) Professor Carroll Quigley of Georgetown University, highly esteemed by his former student, William Jefferson Blythe Clinton.

"The Council on Foreign Relations is "the establishment." Not only does it have influence and power in key decision-making positions at the highest levels of government to apply pressure from above, but it also announces and uses individuals and groups to bring pressure from below, to justify the high level decisions for converting the U.S. from a sovereign Constitutional Republic into a servile member state of a one-world dictatorship." Former Congressman John Rarick 1971
'In our dreams we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk.... The task we set before ourselves is a very beautiful one, to train these people as we find them to a perfectly ideal life just where they are. So we will organize our children into a little community and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the home, in the shop, and on the farm....'" "The Project," Jan-Feb 85, p. 1, quoting from Dr. Emanuel Josephson's Rockefeller Internationalist.

"The State of the World Forum is the launching of a multi-year global initiative to focus on the fundamental challenges and opportunities confronting humanity as we enter the next phase of human development. It is being held in the belief that at this momentous juncture in history -- between the ending of the Cold War and the dawn of the new century -- we are experiencing the birth of the first global civilization." Gorbachev Conference Mission Statement (p. 3), September, 1995.

"Human interdependence must now become our watchword, as we move into the global civilization which lies ahead; interdependence with each other, interdependence with the Earth, interdependence with the Spirit which perennially guides the affairs of humankind." Gorbachev Foundation President Jim Garrison. September, 1995.

"What Boutros-Ghali proposes is closer than anyone on the planet should ever want to get to a transnational military force that could override and eventually abolish national sovereignty altogether and in the process set up the United Nations itself as the power apparatus of an unelected global elite." Samuel Francis, Human Events, August 22, 1992.

In 1961, the Kennedy State Department brought forth an official policy entitled Freedom From War: The United States Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World (Department of State Publication 7277). This dismal document proposed a plan of "progressive controlled disarmament" in which all national armaments, including those of the United States, would be transferred to the United Nations. This disarmament "would proceed to a point where no state would have the military power to challenge the progressively strengthened U.N. Peace Force."

"..The precondition for eventual and genuine globalization is progressive regionalization because by that we move towards larger, more stable, more cooperative units." Zbigniew Brzezinski, speaking at the Gorbachev Conference, September, 1995.

"NAFTA is a major stepping stone to the New World Order." Henry Kissinger.

"We are not going to change Soviet power, of course, or abandon its fundamental principles, but we acknowledge the need for changes that will strengthen socialism." Gorbachev, from his book Perestroika.

"We are for a Lenin who is alive... In building our future, we are basing ourselves upon the gigantic intellectual and moral potential of the socialist idea linked with the theory of Marxism-Leninism... We see no rational grounds to give up the spiritual richness contained in Marxism.

"Through restructuring (perestroika), we want to give Socialism a second wind and unveil in all its plentitude the vast humanist potential of the socialist system.... Our Party was and remains the Party of Lenin.... We must seek these answers guided by the spirit of Lenin, the style of Lenin's thinking, and the method of dialectic cognition." Gorbachev, from a November 15, 1989 speech to Soviet students.

"When Gorbachev talked at the Forum about the 'synthesis' of Eastern and Western culture and ideology, he was following traditional Communist doctrine. He said that the ongoing conflict between the two contradictory systems -- capitalism and socialism (i.e., thesis and antithesis) -- will result in 'synthesis.' The 'synthesis' which the true Marxist believes will eventuate is world-wide Communism,, which will solve all man's problems and produce a new, changed man. In a private discussion during the conference, Gorbachev confirmed that he has not repudiated any of his Marxist beliefs or positions, as set forth in Perestrioka or his other writings or speeches." John Stormer, "Understanding the Times," a newsletter.

"Gentlemen, comrades, do not be concerned about all you hear about glasnost and perestroika and democracy in the coming years. These are primarily for outward consumption. There will be no significant internal change within the Soviet Union, other than for cosmetic purposes. Our purpose is to disarm the Americans and let them fall asleep. We want to accomplish three things: One, we want the Americans to withdraw conventional forces from Europe. Two, we want them to withdraw nuclear forces from Europe. Three, we want the Americans to stop proceeding with the Strategic Defense Initiative." Michail Gorbachev, November 87 Statement to Politburo

On United Nations Day, October 24, 1975, the World Affairs Council unveiled "A Declaration of Interdependence," which in part states, "Two centuries ago our forefathers brought forth a new nation; now we must join with others to bring forth a new world order."

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent." Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

The..."New World Order" is also called "The Plan" and is being pushed by the world's most powerful socialists, marxists, internationalists, and occult and New Age leaders. They plan the following:

1. A world court

2. A world army

3. A world central bank and world currency

4. A world welfare state

5. Centralized economic planning

6. A global taxation system

7. Abolition of private firearms

8. Forced population control

9. Stringent environmental regulations

10. Centralized control of all education

11. Loss of freedom of speech and freedom of the press

12. Abolition of all religions except New Age worship - including Gaia or Mother Earth worship

13. Abolition of national identity and sovereignty, division of the world into ten political/economic governments.

"The United Nations is the greatest fraud in all history. Its purpose is to destroy the United States." John E. Rankin, U.S. Congressman.

"My vision of a New World Order foresees a United Nations with a revitalized peacekeeping function." George Bush, New York, 1991.

And another quote from former president Bush: "It is the sacred principles enshrined in the UN Charter to which we will henceforth pledge our allegiance." UN Building, February 1, 1992.

United Nations' World Constitution: "...The age of nations must end...The governments of the nations have decided to order their separate sovereignties into one government to which they surrender their arms."

The UN Security Council has fifteen members. Five of them, The United States, Britain, France, Russia and China, are permanent members.

"Since the UN was created in 1945, there have been twelve Undersecretaries for Political and Security Council Affairs. In every case, these men have been Communists; and in all but one case they have been Soviet Communists. They are:

1946-1949 Arkady Sobolev (USSR)

1949-1953 Konstantin Zinchenko (USSR)

1953-1954 Ilya Tchernychev (USSR)

1954-1957 Dragoslav Protitch (Yugoslavia)

1958-1960 Anatoly Dobrynin (USSR)

1960-1962 Georgy Arkadev (USSR)

1962-1963 E.D. Kiselev (USSR)

1963-1965 V.P. Suslov (USSR)

1965-1968 Alexei E. Nesterenko (USSR)

1968-1973 Leonid N. Kutakov (USSR)

1973-1978 Arkady N. Shevchenko (USSR)

1978-1981 Mikhail D. Sytenko—USSR

1981-1986 Viacheslav A. Ustinov—USSR

1987-1992 Uasiliy S. Safronchuk—USSR

1992- Vladimir Petrovsky—Russia , "former USSR

"Is there a number of mark planned for the hand or forehead in a new cashless society? Yes, and I have seen the machines that are now ready to put it into operation." Ralph Nader.

Alexis De Togueville upon visiting America in the early 19th century, this French historian observed: "America is great because America is good. If American ever ceases to be good it will cease to be great."

"Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God remembered her iniquities." Revelation 18:4-5

"No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation." David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations

Thought these interesting...

"The New World Order will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down...but in the end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece will accomplish much more than the old fashioned frontal assault." CFR member Richard Gardner, writing in the April l974 issue of the CFR's journal, Foreign Affairs.

"The most powerful clique in these (CFR) groups have one objective in common: they want to bring about the surrender of the sovereignty and the national independence of the U.S....The CFR was founded for "the purpose of promoting disarmament and submergence of U.S. sovereignty and national independence into an all-powerful one-world government." Harpers, July 1958

"The term Internationalism has been popularized in recent years to cover an interlocking financial, political, and economic world force for the purpose of establishing a World Government. Today Internationalism is heralded from [b]pulpit[/b] and platform as a 'League of Nations' or a 'Federated Union' to which the United States must surrender a definite part of its National Sovereignty. The World Government plan is being advocated under such alluring names as the 'New International Order,' 'The New World Order,' 'World Union Now,' 'World Commonwealth of Nations,' 'World Community,' etc. All the terms have the same objective; [b]however, the line of approach may be religious or political according to the taste or training of the individual[/b]." Excerpt from A Memorial to be Addressed to the House of Bishops and the House of Clerical and Lay Deputies of the Protestant Episcopal Church in General Convention (October 1940) [i]emphasis mine[/i]

Sis, I feel I'm being sort of redundant now. Everyone has Google or something like it, right?
We've been around this block before and was just reminded of it.
Went through [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=10336&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]downloaded threads[/url] to pass time and distract from other things.
The way it's gone since then though - Wow - and - time will tell, sure enough.
I don't want to offend anyone with my posts. I don't like seeing us all ripping at the seams here.
This was just what I thought the Lord meant by "watch".
I plan to continue to watch - but I'd like to go further into A Hunger for The Word type threads.
But I do believe there will still be those who are sharper than me and keener to events, that can be the watchmen on the wall for the church - though now, I know we're told by the Lord, that we are to watch for ourselves.

How can we make everybody happy? I just don't know Sis.
I just keep watching all the threads and praying.
Praying John 17 actually. Thinking about my hippie days.
Sounds funny, but I actually have. I never did it - but back then they spoke about "contemplating your navel."
Well, sometimes, as I look around at all the threads, I wonder if the Body of Christ HERE, aren't doing just that.
What I'm trying to say is - we sometimes focus so much upon each other - rather than fight the good fight as one, against incoming missiles or at the least, building each other up enough, that it is like the Body of Christ, contemplating it's own navel. Looking at each other rather than jointly at HIM.

Hey, this is what my Pastor sent out in the Newsletter today.
It blessed me quite a bit.

Quote:
[i]Ecc 4:10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up.

We were admiring the Aspen forests of the Rocky Mountain region for their beauty when we learned that there is another reason for admiring this, the most widely distributed tree in America. Aspens aren't big trees, and they don't put down deep roots; in fact their roots run just under the surface of the ground. But Aspens withstand high winds when other trees around them are falling. The reason? They hold one another up with matted roots. In fact, an entire forest of Aspens can be connected by a common root system. One tree supports another which supports another which supports another - and this can go on for miles.

There are many benefits to being connected. It's not for nothing that the church is defined in Scripture as the Body of Christ - a body whose parts are all organically joined.

Make it a New Year's goal to take part in at least one function which will promote your own connection with your fellow members. Who knows when the winds may blow your way?[/i]
_______________________________________________

The Body punching itself, is what I see.
At least just here - I wish we could just give each other some room to be individual body parts and not expect an arm to do what a leg would do or a kidney to do what a gallbladder would do.
If one is a kidney and another is a gallbladder - would the kidney jump up and fight with the gallbladder for not functioning like a kidney?
That's something like an auto-immune response - right ?

A normal immune system, fights the outside threats to the body - together.

When my body doesn't do that, I rest until things straighten themselves out. Rest and Pray.
And if needed - go to the hospital. :-?
Actually, coincidently, I have both immune dysfunctions, so ...

John 17 - God Bless and Good Night!

:-)

pastorfrin, God Bless You!
About the Body -
I have just the book. Read it when I first got saved. I was Nee-freak. :-D

This book is now on-line - I'm not sure whether to post the book or just leave the link - so I'll just leave the link and any of us can post it, if they'd like to.
It would be a Very Good Read.

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/spiritual/nee/tboc01.htm

Today, unexpectedly, I came across a little old booklet, probably written and published in the late 1930s or 1940s at latest. The introductory paragraph reads like this:

'At the present crisis in the world's history, when the destinies of all nations are, so to speak, in the melting-pot, it is of the utmost importance that Christians should have a clear perception of the nature and identity of the Church, and its place in the Divine order. Whether "the Church" is a body subject to the Bishop of Rome, outisde of which there is no salavation, and to which all earthly kings and governments owe servile obedience; whether it is a body identified with any particular nation, as the "Church of England" or the " Church of Scotland"; or whether it is purely and solely the mystic body of Christ, having no concern with mundane things and no interest in any one nation more than another; these are questions that are bound to force themselves more and more to the front as the projected new World Order begins to take shape. Who or what is the Church and where does it come in the Divine scheme of things?' [i]Rev D. McDougall in 'The Church and Its Relation to The Jew'[/i]

It's really hard to believe the New World Order was a 'secret' back then, like it is now in certain circles. Seems that things are now well advanced, and many have known of the process which has been going on - including various wars - to make people grateful for aid afterwards, and therefore dependent and less powerful and knowing not that they are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked.

http://herescope.blogspot.com/2006/08/one-world-one-faith-one-plan.html

I would like to research some of these quotes for myself.

Don't you have Google Chris?

Just to help further - one quote at a time into google works well.

Please remember - this thread is still about the so-called Emerging Folks who claim political ties to some of these groups and not about politics [i]by itself[/i].
Thank you!

http://herescope.blogspot.com/search?q=cfr
The Discernment Research Group is a project of Discernment Ministries, Inc. http://www.discernment-ministries.org. E-mail: herescope@gmail.com

_________________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Foreign_Relations
Rick Warren on membership list.

Edited to add

Hi Chris.

I shall have to start from the beginning now. First to say, this thread is linked to a few other places, so I do intend to keep it on topic.

Your "research" leads you to one conclusion, mine began in 1980 with an Ed Decker, who was then on the radio. The first book I read was None Dare Call It Conspiracy, which he recommended 28 years ago.

The quotes are just a small part of those I have collected since 1980. Why ? Because the nwo is something we see as part of Eschatology.

I have read the thread from last night on the News section - so I will keep that locked thread in mind here also.

I left the discernment-ministry email address and I would advise you email them with your allegations, if they cause you that much concern.

I would be more concerned with accusing Brethren, that ministry included, then secular Political Entities.

The Wikipedia page I posted was rated 100% and was posted just to show Rick Warren being on their list also.

You are entitled to form your own opinion on Political Org.s and I do not see where that would change the topic that this thread is attempting to cover.

If you would like to start your own thread on de-bunking the CFR info, please do.

There are thousands of quotes on-line and I cannot believe you are not finding these or those others. Other folks are not having that problem.

This will lead no where but to both of us accusing the other of having our own "bias" and "sources" and I find it will take this thread way off course and find the tension of that truly unnecessary.

To answer your other question -- the purpose of those links was to keep this thread on topic. They touched on the org.s mentioned [the U.N. and CFR] and who is involved with those org.s from this emerging/converging religious system. I thought that was obvious. If you had searched at all, there was a whole series of discussions from several websites about Warren claiming to be in the CFR and working with the U.N..

If you can see Paul or Peter in the CFR or U.N. - then, well, that's my point and theirs.

You and I will never agree on "sources", so I cannot take this any further than just [i]seeing[/i] folks called "Christians" being so deeply involved with Global Politics and defending it and moving the Church into this one world Merger, by activism or defense of these political agents of that agenda.

I left you the link to None Dare Call it Conspiracy on another thread and since 7/05 have posted other links for you personally that you have not regarded.

You are missing the whole point of this thread and I think I know why and so would other Ministries now understand ....

Chris wrote on another thread today -
"There is still hope for America and the world. We are praying a next "Great Awakening" in which men and women will realize all that you have stated."

Our Eschatology differs Chris. That's our problem/bias/slant/different colored glasses.

Also posted today -

Ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Like I said earlier, I agree that the Masons are a cultish sect with sinister traditions. But today? Most Masons are just a group of lonely old guys wanting to be a part of something that they feel is "bigger than themselves." They meet at their lodge (or "Temple"), perform their sinister looking "rituals," commence their business meeting -- and then they relax and talk about football and grandkids. They aren't plotting to overtake the world for Satan, the Antichrist or even the Masons. Like the Catholic Church's "Knights of Columbus," these guys are more worried about their next BBQ fundraiser than the affairs of the world.

I'm learning more everyday.

Thanks!

I am just wondering why there is so much fuss on this thread at the moment about whether there are "conspiracies" or not. Especially by Ccchhhrrriiisss's seeking to debunk a few, such as Freemasonary, or some of the discernment websites, as being either wrong or no longer any threat.

Of course it is important to check one's sources, and not get out of balance or fearful re the things that are coming on the earth, but that they [i][b]are[/b][/i] coming there is no doubt whatsoever.

And that, I believe is the point of this thread?

Is that correct, Annie?

in Him

Jeannette

Sis, when I post Quotes that have their "Source" after each quote and am accused of posting "allegations" - that's when I just sit back and watch, as Jesus said we should. :-D

About what this thread 'was' about - it's yet to be seen if it can be brought back on course or if it is playing itself out, right before our eyes.

Bless your heart Sister.

LittleGift wrote:

Of course it is important to check one's sources, and not get out of balance or fearful re the things that are coming on the earth, but that they [i][b]are[/b][/i] coming there is no doubt whatsoever.

Things that the Lord will have to judge.

We are seeing (as I said a while ago on this or another thread) cults rise up before our very eyes, and seduce and lead away captive whole flocks; especially within "mainline" Pentecostal/charismatic Churches.

And you don't need discernment sites to see them - anyone with half a spiritual eye ought to be able to see - unless they are very young in faith!

in Him

Jeannette

LittleGift wrote:

LittleGift wrote:

Of course it is important to check one's sources, and not get out of balance or fearful re the things that are coming on the earth, but that they [i][b]are[/b][/i] coming there is no doubt whatsoever.

And more importantly the things that are coming, and have already come, [i][b]into[/b][/i] the Church.

Things that the Lord will have to judge.

We are seeing (as I said a while ago on this or another thread) cults rise up before our very eyes, and seduce and lead away captive whole flocks; especially within "mainline" Pentecostal/charismatic Churches.

And you don't need discernment sites to see them - anyone with half a spiritual eye ought to be able to see - unless they are very young in faith!

in Him

Jeannette

Hi Chris,

I'm trying to understand your desire for 'proof's, as in Annie's long post, using the search function I counted 47 or 48 mentions of 'new world order'. Do you wish to find other references which Annie does [i]not[/i] have or, another 40 quotes wouldn't convince you of either its existence or the level of co-ordination of those working towards it?

Do you need to go and read the articles and speeches for yourself, to believe that 'new world order' was mentioned there?

I agree it seems curious that everything which has been quoted, and even a reverend minister's reference to 'new World Order' doesn't satisfy you as to its [u]existence[/u]. It seems this with which you are grappling, if I'm not mistaken. Please tell me.

Or, are you interested to understand more of what's involved in the proposed nwo, rather than to dispute its existence? I'm trying to understand - and you know I have not been involved in these threads much - because there is nothing intellectually unrespectable about being informed about these things. In fact, it is line with Paul's repetitions of 'I would not have you ignorant, brethren'.

Until you find out more about where freemasonry leads and what it does, you will be missing the castle key to this whole topic. Also, this interview was broadcast today with the author of a new book on the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. Here is the historian's own website.

[url=www.ctwilcox.com]www.ctwilcox.com[/url]

Here is the interview link:

[url=http://www.trunews.com/listen_now.htm]The Transformation of the Republic[/url]

I don't know if the following link has been posted on SI, but, this clip also is relevant to this thread, showing footage of GW Bush's father, a tv correspondent mentioning the CFR, and one Gary Hart (not sure which), all of whom I hope you will recognise from their faces.

[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1319745137496669030&q=bush+new+world+order&total=3538&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1]Verbal references to new world (order)[/url]

Hia Sis Dorcas, like I said on the previous page - each quote had it's source neatly connected to it.

You rang an old bell here also. While still licensed with the AoG, we had opportunity both with the District and the FGBA to hear from a former Mason, who warned that they were infiltrating our Churches intentionally to corrupt. That was over 25 years ago. Not that they are the sole evil that's come against the true Church.
Besides those from "Ivanwald" or otherwise known as The Brotherhood.

[b]TWO, THREE-LEGGED STOOLS[/b]

On January 6, 2007, Pope Benedict XVI announced a plan. He was exhorting global political, economic and spiritual leaders to establish a New World Order. The pope’s plan is similar to Pastor Rick Warren’s three legged stool plan. Why would this be?

……………………………………………………………………………

As everyone knows, the head of the Roman Catholic Church is a very powerful man. Every year, an entourage of world, political, religious and economic leaders, visit Rome and pay the pope a visit. On January 6, 2007, Pope Benedict called for a New World Order that would be supported by global political, economic and spiritual leaders. [1] Only a few journalists reported this item as newsworthy.

For example, in an article titled Pope Urges Today's Wise Men to Shape a World Based on Christ that was published by the Catholic News Service, John Thavis wrote:

Pope Benedict XVI said the age of globalization is challenging political, scientific and religious leaders to shape a new world order based on spiritual values. [2]

A second article reported by Asia News titled Pope Calls on Magi of today for Peace, quoted Pope Benedict’s speech word for word and made his mission even clearer. According to this article:

The need emerged for a new world order in economic and political spheres but also and especially in cultural and spiritual spheres, that is, a renewed humanism. A new social, political and economic order does not work if there is no spiritual renewal, if we do not find God. [3]

Based on these two articles, it should be clear that Pope Benedict was calling for a New World order based on joint human effort from three sources – political, economic and spiritual leaders of the world’s faiths. “All three categories are important as the church continues its task of transforming the world,” the pope said. [4]

I found these statements made by the pope were fascinating, especially in light of statements previously made by another very prominent Christian leader, Pastor Rick Warren. Appearing on FOX News on Meet the Press Christmas Eve, 2006, Warren was asked by Moderator Tim Russet about the “big five giants” the world faces. Warren answered the question by stating that these giants could be defeated by implementing his three legged stool plan. He said:

A one-legged stool will fall over, a two-legged stool will fall over, and business and government alone cannot solve these problems. They haven’t, or they would’ve. The third leg of the stool is the churches. There’s a public sector role, there’s a private sector role and there’s a faith sector role. [5]

Interesting! The pope and Rick Warren both have a three legged stool plan. Each plan involves global political, economic and spiritual leaders. The pope’s plan calls for a New World Order and invites spiritual leaders of all religions. Pastor Warren’s P.E.A.C.E. Plan is not quite that ambitious, but is well on the way.

It should be obvious to anyone who can think - there are strong similarities between the pope’s plan and Rick Warren’s plan. Both, by the way, are part of a bigger plan to establish the kingdom of God here on earth. Understand The Times will continue to monitor both plans. We will do so in light of the Scriptures which reveal the future before it happens.

I am Roger Oakland. This has been a biblical perspective to help understand the times.

[url=http://www.understandthetimes.org/current_transcripts/text/sept2007/2316.shtml][b]Understand the times.[/b][/url]

[b] http://www.understandthetimes.org/articles.shtml [/b]

Please note:

No "links" or Christian Discernment Ministries have been posted to this Thread to mention the CFR but Rick Warren's involvement.

Thank you!!!

Davos is famous as the host to the annual meetings of the World Economic Forum (WEF), an annual meeting of global political and business elites, which is often referred to as simply Davos.

[b]Rick Warren & Brian McLaren at DAVOS[/b]

Davos Surprise: Rick Warren

The biggest surprise of Davos so far for me? Rick Warren. Being a cosmopolitan atheist type, I'd heard of him, of course, but thought he was, well, author of a bestselling self-help book and pastor of a megachurch somewhere. What I didn't realise was that he's been coming to Davos for years, and that he can work his magic on Masters of the Universe - and cynical hacks - just as much as he can on his congregation at home.

"If you're a global leader, you have to realise that the future of the world is not secularism," he said at a panel on faith and modernity moderated by Tony Blair. "There is going to be more religion, not less. You may not like it, but that's the way it is." [Read the full post [url=http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/01/24/davos-surprise-rick-warren]here[/url] ]

Brian McLaren at Davos

Brian McLaren is asked by Sierra Club radio to talk about the environment and theology from a Christian and evangelical viewpoint. Listen here.

Brian speaks really well and its a good intro to his book called Everything Must Change, which outlines a plan to tackle the spiraling threat of a dysfunctional economical system. Brian will be speaking at DAVOS World Economic Forum in Switzerland this week and will be rubbing shoulders with some of the world's top leaders in their fields. I hope he is able to bring God's agenda to the table. [Read the full post, with links, here]

Two evangelical leaders, Rick Warren and Brian McLaren, who recently signed the common faith agreement Loving God and Neighbor Together, which called for Christian and Islamic leaders to work together, showed up in Davos, Switzerland, this week at the World Economic Forum.

This is quite significant. Davos featured a "West-Islamic World Dialogue" with a "Council of 100 Leaders (C-100) Promoting dialogue and cooperation between the Western and Islamic worlds." According to one report, the purpose of the C-100 is sustain "In-depth Dialogue and Discourse" and leverage "Global Cooperative Action" with a network designed to:

Catalyse change and make progress in one of the most pressing global issues of our time
Advance thought leadership to shape and guide the agenda of West–Islam dialogue
Participate in the discourse among members of a network of influential leaders with eminent knowledge
To underscore the increasingly spiritual nature of the WEF's economic focus, note the "Ancient Wisdom on Modern Questions" webpage link. This is truly a global interfaith movement.

Rick Warren attended Davos last year. You can see a clip of him doing an interview at Davos this year here. According to Warren's bio posted at the World Economic Forum website, he is still a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. WorldNetDaily has previously reported on Warren's prevarications regarding this issue.

Brian McLaren of Emergent Church fame also attended Davos. He is set to go on a book tour for his new book Everything Must Change. He, like the New Apostolic Reformation leaders, is calling for a paradigm shift -- not unlike James Rutz's Megashift -- called Deep Shift to "engage in personal formation and theological reformulation for global transformation." One of his sponsors is Faith at Work, part of the marketplace transformation movement, which is eerily similar to the WEF's global business development.

While Robert Schuller was hosting his Rethink Conference this past weekend, these other evangelical leaders were actively engaged in this "theological reformulation for global transformation" with the power elite in global economics. It is no coincidence that the "apostles" of the New Apostolic Reformation are calling for a radical redistribution of the planet's wealth, often referred to as the "kingdom economy" or the "transfer of wealth."

To see the shape of the evangelical church to come, study the "theological reformulation for global transformation" embedded in this "TransformWorld covenant" document. Our previous post discussed Transform World's vision.

The Truth:

"Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations, they set up their ensigns for signs." (Psalm 74:4)

-------------------------------------------------

{Links within article too numerous to post - see original at link}
Friday, January 25, 2008 http://herescope.blogspot.com/

Hi Annie,

I can hardly believe this thread is in its fourteenth page and I'm only just beginning to 'get' this 'merger' you've been flagging up!

To underscore the increasingly spiritual nature of the WEF's economic focus, note the "Ancient Wisdom on Modern Questions" webpage link. This is truly a global interfaith movement.

Rick Warren attended Davos last year. You can see a clip of him doing an interview at Davos this year here. According to Warren's bio posted at the World Economic Forum website, he is still a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.

I can't find a recent thread in which the Willow Creek pastors say they didn't realise their flock would not grow through the use of their non-biblical books and media resources.

In the light of the revised [i]Pagan Christianity[/i] by Frank Viola and George Barna, the surveys which have been done - we assumed, to urge our evangelism forward - are just as useful for assessing the degree to which Christian belief has declined, in order that alternatives to Christianity be promoted.

Practising Christianity in a Pagan World turned out to have been written by a practising homosexual. For all its dependence on scripture, and correctness doctrinally, there is a mountain of philosophical scepticism to negotiate if one is to take seriously the content, when the author himself apparently does not. This is the sort of thing which [i]does in[/i] the head of the ordinary non-churchgoer. For the believer, it is a kind of madness which cannot be accommodated alongside truth.

While Robert Schuller was hosting his Rethink Conference this past weekend, [17 - 19 Jan] these other evangelical leaders were actively engaged in this "theological reformulation for global transformation" with the power elite in global economics. It is no coincidence that the "apostles" of the New Apostolic Reformation are calling for a radical redistribution of the planet's wealth, often referred to as the "kingdom economy" or the "transfer of wealth."

[url=http://www.trunews.com/Audio/1_15_08_tuesday_trunews.mp3]trunews interview with Warren Smith discussing the Course in Miracles[/url]

Following the Godtube presentation (link below) in which a number of associations with Javier Solana are noted with regard to prophecy, I found a useful blog (I think) by a Christian who's discussing some of the background which may influence his thinking, and done an original work on biblical numerology (amongst much else).

[url=http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/Topics/JavierSolana.htm]Mr Europe[/url]

Because I'm reading 17th century scepticism (still) the information on Francis Bacon's inductive thinking (simply explained) casts some light on colliding philosophies back then, which, to promote again, will do nothing to lead men towards sanity or Godliness.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=22066&forum=36&8]Godtube video about EU powers and treaties[/url]

Oh Sis, yes we've come a long way from "purpose driven" or should I say, we had no idea what the "purpose" of it all was until just a few years ago.

The agenda of a one-world-religion & governance is their goal and has been, but again, it wasn't fully seen until Warren's P.E.A.C.E. plan and since. It's all in full-throttle - full speed ahead - while we argue nonessentials.

I hooked my media player up as promised and twice it blew out my Security system - to where I couldn't get email or websites.
I restored to earlier dates a few times and it helped but the second time I tried to get a BBC video/audio, it shot the thing - so I had to totaally remove the security program and re-install it and now still working at restoring former settings.
I'll never do audio/video while on-line again. :-?

Only if I can "save as target" and watch it off-line... just so you know ... if there's anything I can "save as target" to my media file to watch off-line - I'd appreciate it.

Bless you for puzzle-piecing and connecting dots with us. Gets lonely sometimes.

Love you.

Annie

Hi Annie,

I've just discovered an interview with Daneen Peterson, explaining in much more detail, some of the changes to American law noted on her website:

[url=www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com]www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com[/url]

Found on google:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm1VGa0XQp4]An interview by Kevin Gallagher with Daneen Peterson[/url]

There is a different interview at Kevin Gallagher's own website:

[url=http://www.towkg.blogspot.com/]His third show with one world order researcher Dr. Daneen Peterson[/url]

The second interview explores some of the research in her book which was about to be published. Apparently the North American Union plan in began to be announced in [b]1982[/b].

I learn from the Godtube video posted by SimpleLiving in Scripture and Doctrine, that the NAU is due to complete in [b]2010[/b].

Annie, I don't know if you can save these to view offline. But maybe.

:-)

Have you been able to watch the Godtube video? If not, I could take the text off for you, and put it in a post. Would that be helpful?

If you're in Europe or the UK, I think you'd be [i]most[/i] (hint) interested in some of the information coming through in the second linked interview in my last post, with reference to historical treaties and definitions by which we understand better where the financial powers lie.

This adds to the significance of American religious figures being invited to the annual meeting of the world's most elite financiers, in Switzerland recently.

See what you think... and remember, Daneen Peterson's website links to very many of the government documents from which she extracted the information she is publishing.

What is missing from the church is the teaching of the necessity to "walk in the Spirit" or how to lean and depend on Him.

The Church should never be "surprised or shocked" when events happen and should not be deceived in these days, nor put their trust in princes. The Church should be FEARLESS of the future, even if they know the future will be horrendous - unlike any times before, as Jesus has said.

What is "walking in the spirit", but childlike dependence on the Father - trusting Him completely to guide and teach and warn. Watching and staying sober, vigilent to Him with full trust in His guidance through His Words.
Asking moment by moment - What would You have me to do right now? Getting eyes & thoughts off of Self. Depending on His written word and planting it richly into our hearts.

It's a practice that takes time but can/should develop into a lifestyle. It's a discipline that can later, with use, be second nature to us. It is The Normal Christian Life. It is how Jesus walked while in the flesh on earth. He said, the words I speak and the things I do are from My Father. He walked 100% in dependence and obedience to The Spirit - as our example.

But we have strayed from that teaching and leaning on the Lord and have relied on "our own understanding" or looked for other's understandings to form our own.

The Holy Spirit is "grieving" over our ignorance.

How many times did Jesus call His Spirit the "Spirit of Truth" and going so far as to say that He will lead us into all truth and even show us things to come? Not a few of us were told during prayer, that something would happen that next day - 9/11. We were not taken by surprise and that is for all of His Elect, if they choose to stop thinking for themselves, doing their own thing and begin to desperately lean on Him for His "thoughts".

But because Christians have not been taught how to not walk autonomously - watchmen have had to be there to warn the church of incoming or present dangers, all through the Church's History.

In these last days though, as I've seen the church change over the decades, we now desire to avoid or even hate watchmen.

So - not only have we grieved His Spirit by living our thought lives and lives autonomously, but we've, for the most part, turned away the watchmen.

We deserve whatever we get for these two offenses against an all supplying and merciful Savior.

Pro 3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Pro 3:4 So shalt thou find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Pro 3:8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
Pro 3:9 Honor the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
Pro 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Pro 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Pro 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
Pro 3:14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
Pro 3:15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

"and He will show you things to come"

How is the word "understanding" used in Daniel and Revelation and elsewhere?

That is what He promised to those who are His Sheep. His Sheep are those who hear His Voice and follow and won't follow another.

Love without Truth is not His Love and true love rejoices at Truth.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Sermons do not take the place of hearing from GOD for oneself.

By HIS Definition: What are the characteristics of those who are called His Sheep? -

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

No one will get through the last days without knowing [u]His[/u] Voice.

Psalm 23 .... He leadeth me .... Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for Thou art with me.

Our Shepherd is calling in His Own.

Disciple,

Thank you for that post, putting everything in perspective, both old and new. It moved me, and reminded me of this recent sermon by Carter Conlon:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=16018]When you don't know what to do[/url]

[b][u]For those with an eye to see[/u], all the forces of evil are feverishly at work in this hour. Whether it's the Great Dragon persecuting the saints, or the Old Serpent deceiving them... we see him at work these days with deadly malice. And it can be very frightening, at times, to see this. Whether the saints are taking things seriously or not... the Devil certainly is.[/b]

But it greatly encourages me to look back on another Hour when the Devil was hard at work, too... that hour long ago when the political and religious forces of the world united, and [b]conspired together, and succeeded in crucifying the Son of God.

But whose triumph was it? Who, actually, was on the offensive there? The Devil?

No, it was the Lion of Judah who was on the offensive, and there at the Cross, as the Lamb that was slain, TOTALLY TRIUMPHED over the Evil One!

What hope this gives us for THIS hour! The Cross [/b](the same one we are called to take up and carry) ...this was our Lord's greatest triumph. "And having spoiled (stripped) principalities and powers He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them IN IT (in His Cross)" (Col. 2.15). Right there in the CROSS, that was His moment of total absolute Victory over all the forces of evil!

[b]And so whatever the Devil is doing in THIS hour, God has a surprise for him. God is the One on the offensive, and has a strategy, to bring about his total ruin. [u]He that hath ears to hear, let him hear[/u].[/b]

I know it's written right there in the Bible plain as day, right out in the open, and anyone who cares to can read it. But God says it's a secret. "Hidden" wisdom. The Devil never seems to learn it. Never has learned it to this day. The Cross. It is his utter undoing.

[b]We ourselves are slow to learn this, it's such deep wisdom[/b]. And so often, when the Cross comes our way, we consider it a strange thing, something to be avoided, something that is against us, something wrong.

I add my [i]amen[/i], also.

Thank you, Lord.

No this is a bit off subject that has been discussed...but I am concerned with this emergent movement. I have a salesman that calls on us. We have had several discussions about doctrine. It is one thing to listen to Rob Bell and Brian Mclaren on Youtube. But to hear it spreading throughout is shocking. His view on doctrine is almost blasphemes. He doesn't believe in a literal hell or that the bible is infallible. He thinks God's Word itself is infallible, but not the bible. Basically he believes that the bible is full of inconsistencies. The view on salvation is even distorted. We all can have faith but a different way to attain it. Christ is the answer he says, but my faith may be different from the catholic. Even though the catholic may believe in everything thing in that doctrine and still believe in Christ for salvation. How can that be? If I am a follower of Jesus Christ and trust in Him completely I will forsake that doctrine and beliefs! Should I say my hail maries and then also pray to Christ?

I guess I never encountered this emergent belief until today. I wish I had more time to tell you more...but it is Friday and I am going home

Blessings
Mike

reformer asked

We all can have faith but a different way to attain it. Christ is the answer he says, but my faith may be different from the catholic. Even though the catholic may believe in everything thing in that doctrine and still believe in Christ for salvation. How can that be?

roadsign has encountered during her studies, the idea of each person being thrown back on [i]faith in themselves[/i], rather even, than faith in God. Accommodating all the references in the New Testament to [i]His[/i] faith seems to have been off the scale altogether! How absurd is that?

You're right about the seductiveness of the emergent movement, though. Not one of really expects to go into a [i]church[/i] where mentioning the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, would be considered 'extreme'. But that too is happening.

We need to pray for one another, beloved brethren, that when we are outmanoeuvred by numbers and opinion, we find ourselves utterly conviced of the word of God and the [u]power[/u] of the cross, as AD eloquently reminded us.

The bottom line is, the people who are sucked into lifeless belief structures, weren't looking for eternal life or freedom from sin in the first place. The greater problem is that once they are in [i]there[/i], it will be all the more difficult to announce it to them.

:-(

For those who are following here, praying for grace to endure:

[url=http://herescope.blogspot.com/]Brian McLaren to speak at World Future Society [/url]

Extract: or, search the archive for Monday, March 24, 2008.

[i]The World Futures Society Annual Conference scheduled for July 26-28, 2008 in Washington, D.C. is featuring well-known Emergent leader Brian McLaren in a workshop called "The Future of the Religious Right." The conference promo bills this workshop as follows:[/i]

'Political and media stereotypes in the United States often equate “religious” with “conservative,” but a new progressive reality is challenging the monologue of the Religious Right, coming from such groups as Sojourners, Emergent Village and renewed mainline congregations. We’ll explore the weak signals of change that are sounding across the religious landscape and how younger evangelicals are increasingly rejecting doomsday theology, preemptive war doctrine, the prosperity gospel, or a singular emphasis on individual salvation to focus on global climate change, genocide in Darfur, extinction of species, fair trade and ethical buying, exploitive employment practices, and community foresight. Three voices from the “emergent church” will explore this capacity of postmodern Christianity to embrace and redefine tradition, and further the cause of justice in the world.

Who should attend: Any futurist who feels that everything must change about religion and is curious about how progressive Christianity is a leading indicator of change.

What you’ll learn: Attendees will learn how to ground their leadership and foresight in the concerns of tomorrow’s spiritualities and relate religious concepts to futures thinking through a theology of hope.

How can this new knowledge be applied: Participants will leave with a deeper understanding of how postmodern spiritualities are reshaping conservative theologies and communities.

Diana Butler Bass, author, senior fellow, Cathedral College of the Washington National Cathedral, Washington, D.C.

Brian McLaren, pastor and thought leader for the emergent church; author, Laurel, Maryland

Mike Morrell, graduate fellow, Strategic Foresight, School of Global Leadership & Entrepreneurship, Regent University, Virginia Beach, Virginia'

key words: religion, politics, globalization

issue areas: Values and Spirituality, Social and Cultural Trends

[i]The World Future Society is a leading organization devoted to creating alternative future scenarios for planet Earth. According to Wikipedia, it has about 25,000 members in more than 80 countries.[/i]

My comments:

If you open the page linked at the top of this post, there are links to the full conference promo document (pdf), and the speakers it names.

The [url=http://www.wfs.org/]World Future Society website[/url] shows where their heart lies. :-?

Just be careful not to have youngsters with you the first time if you go there, as for those who can read there is an exciting world of fantasy as well as genuine scientific development on offer, in a suitably geeky format, which you should be ready to explain or refute as required.

In saying this, I believe God is preparing the next generation of believing youngsters, to know Him, their Lord and Master, as their strength and Healer. Let us not dampen God's plans for His people, through undue scepticism of the revelation He is giving them, or their dreams in which He appears. We cannot expect the world to become an extreme place to live, without also expecting God to have been ahead, all along.

Whatever you think, whatever you say, (to your children), I exhort you to [i]believe with them[/i] what God has shown them; at least, do not squash [i]their[/i] faith.

May God give us all [b]His wisdom[/b] :-D

Herescope (the website commenting on these events), regulary posts scripture, to re-centre the reader's spirit on Truth. Amen.

This further serves to [u]hightlight the growing gap[/u] between God's word and promises, and the false ideologies being promoted to Christians and seekers.

Beloved, you may think it's not your calling to pray against these developments, or even to keep up with them, but please search your own heart as to what you know of the Lord's mind, and guard against being caught unprepared for the choices you may have to make in the future.

I don't know how long this link (to a youtube presentation) will last, showing Oprah Winfrey as the leader of a new 'megachurch' which first met on 3rd March, 2008, but it quotes from the Course in Miracles (without saying this is what it is quoting), which has been highlighted in other threads already.

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA]The church of Oprah exposed[/url]

At the end, a new book is mentioned.

[url=http://www.carringtonsteele.citymax.com/page/page/5833185.htm]Don't Drink the Kool-Aid[/url]

There are links to extracts from the book on the above page.

If anyone is reading it, or reads it, please consider (as you read), choosing a few more random extracts to share here. Thank you.

Interesting that Oprah was put off God by hearing of His jealousy and not understanding it. Seems to me this confusion - the assumption that jealousy is always wrong - is a neat nail for self to hang on, and continue to block the way to [i]really[/i] [u]appreciating[/u] His love, and His jealousy for us to have an eternally [i]wholesome[/i] relationship with Him.

I want to add a note of caution, in the light of what has been written
and quoted in

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21919&forum=35&6]Testing all things on SermonIndex (General Topics)[/url]

'If he speak [u]not according to the Word[/u] it is [b]because there is no light in him[/b].'

~ AW Tozer

and from

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=22981&forum=45&1]Why we lack Understanding (Devotional Thoughts)[/url]

'God cannot reveal anything to [u]us[/u] if [u]we[/u] don’t have [b]His Spirit[/b].'

~ Oswald Chambers

If you are looking in on this thread, and you don't know the Lord, or (even if you do), you don't understand His word when you read it, your priority is to know God first and above all.

Then, you will find yourself understanding easily, how far from His word of peace to mankind through Jesus Christ crucified and risen, these man-made organisations are taking many thousands - to a place where not only will they not hear the word of God, but key truths related to obtaining eternal life, are directly contradicted.

Also, with regard to the video links... if you are a person in whom visual input seems to live forever, always be cautious; perhaps, don't open them at all - find somewhere to read the same story. In any case, pray before you watch; pray before you listen.

It is not a mistake that audio-visual communication has been developed as a teaching tool. God always used it Himself.

His voice was often accompanied by something to see. These ways, our memories are impressed with His message. That's why our memories are impressed with [i]other[/i] information presented in God's ways. He has made us thus. We are created in His image. He is primitively real in every way we know - and He has made our being to reflect the same reality.

Thus, if you don't already know His voice - the voice of our Good Shepherd, Jesus Christ - you don't need to listen to lies. They will confuse rather than edify. Avoid them.

Please be very very careful when dipping in to these resources, and if you find yourself [i]agreeing[/i] with those [u]we seek to warn against[/u], know conclusively that your mind needs be renewed as the first priority, and you are already vulnerable to deception.

Don't kid on. Don't deceive [i]yourself[/i]. (It is possible!)

Save yourself from this untoward (God) generation, by faith in Jesus Christ, who is the Resurrection and the Life. [color=6633FF](Acts 2)

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning,
which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon,
and our hands have handled,
of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested,
and we have seen [i]it[/i],
and bear witness,
and shew unto you that eternal life,
which was with the Father,
and was manifested unto us;)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you,
that ye also may have fellowship with us:
and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father,
and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you,
that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him,
and declare unto you,
that [b]God is light[/b],
and [u]in him is no darkness at all[/u]. [/color]

There are two interviews in last Friday's broadcast, and an announcement the service may soon relocate to the Carribean.

[url=http://www.trunews.com/listen_now.htm]trunews, 11th April, 2008[/url]

One with Washington Times journalist David Sands, who is following the food wars scenario, and the other with the author of this book - [url=http://www.amazon.com/As-America-Has-Done-Israel/dp/1603740384/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208279427&sr=1-1]As America Has Done to Israel (Paperback) by John P McTernan[/url] - who follows world events from a biblical viewpoint.

Like the pastoral team at Times Square, he believes what is happening is the fulfilment of prophecy.

Also, you might like to pray about the Pope's forthcoming American tour, as he prepares to address the United Nations on 18th April, (this Friday).

[url=http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5691310.html]http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5691310.html[/url]

[url=http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5691301.html]Schedule for Pope's trip[/url]

[url=http://herescope.blogspot.com/]The Tony Blair Faith Foundation [/url]

[url=http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/4572,opinion,blairs-university-challenge,2]Here is older Blair news: January, 2007[/url]

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/mar/07/tonyblair.usa]Of Mr Blair's appointment to Yale University: March, 2008 [/url]

May I express some scepticism that the unification of world faiths will lead to the eradication of world poverty?

I base this on [color=6633FF]John 12:8 The poor always ye have with you...'[/color]