King Saul – A Man Who Started Well -poonen

Yes..Saul had all those qualities, moral qualities, but I can't ever see that Saul had a real genuine heart for God - from the beginning.

Brother, this is a sad thing to say publically, only because it is impossible for you to have looked into Saul's heart from the beginning. Such things belong only to God, and if we must judge, why not judge admirably and righteously and give the disgraced man the benfit of the doubt? Remember that the same measure you exact on others shall be measured back against you. Brother, how can anyone discern the [i]genuineness[/i] of the heart of a man they've never met face to face?

I am easily of the opinion that Saul started off genuine - for I have no reason or substantiating proof to suspect otherwise - and that God obviously saw something unique in his character and heart. Samuel obviously saw something also, for he wept when the kingdom was taken from Saul. And we also ought to weep when a man falls from grace.

Leave such speculation of his genuineness to God, and continue on with a pure conscience, being merciful in your judgment and taking heed lest you fall also. God has many painful ways of altering believers' hearts who cast unjustified criticisms upon the fallen. Trust me on this.

;-)

You're actually doing what [b]you accuse me[/b] of doing

And Brother Zac, who I respect and learn from, does the same thing [b]you accuse me[/b] of doing as well.

Please, brother, no one is accusing you. Satan is the accuser. You made a public statement of opinion, a judgment, and I offered my own as well. You're asking me to show you from scripture where I have reason to believe Saul was genuine from the beginning, and Zac has already shown a good case from the article. In fact, he has shown ten reasons. Can you provide even [i]one[/i] to argue your case? I would ask you now to show from scripture how you have come to believe Saul was never genuine.

But, please, let's leave all the allusions of personal "accusations" out of the discussion; all I've done here is challenge you. Can you defend your view and show justification from scripture that Saul was never genuine?

Brother Paul

Take Balaam for example

Yes, we can take Balaam for an example. I also have reason to believe Balaam may have started his carreer as a good prophet, right with God. You cannot prove otherwise, though one can argue a strong case that because God already had a history of legitimately speaking though him (and indeed, it was Israel's God and not a devil) this fact alone demonstrates that Balaam may have begun his ministry with a good heart, and thus was chosen by God on account of virtue in younger days.

I could have easily worded it different but it would have meant the same thing. Instead of saying "your accusing me of" I could have said "you think I'm judging"...it's all the same.

Sorry, brother, it's just that the word "accuse", to me, has ugly connotations; it's inextricably linked to blameworthiness and crime. I just think you chose a harsh word (I guess you just need to read on my side of discussion:)), it sort of makes it look like I am trying to publically condemn you here, or prosecute you ...at least that's how I'm taking it. Brother, I know this isn't how you feel.

The whole reason I challenged you is, again, why you have automatically assumed Saul was never genuine when Zac gave ten good reasons why he was, without the Bible having to state implicitly that "Saul was a righteous king". At least we can agree that David regarded Saul as "God's anointed" - as did Samuel who anointed him, and God doesn't anoint the ungodly. God fully intended to give Saul the kingdom, God hand-picked him and directed Samuel to him. To assume Saul was ungodly in these early days contradicts what we know about God's principle of honoring men who honor Him. Can you give one hint that would compell us to chalk off Saul's [i]entire life as ingenuine[/i] in terms of godly affection (other than the Bible not deliberately mentioning it per se).

I'm not mad, either, I promise. :) This may sound bogus, but my point isn't to win this; I am just curious as to how you came to this deduction despite Poonen's fair (as I see it) article.

God bless you, and Merry Christmas!

Hi brothers,

One thing that may be different is how the Scripture says of David, that God [i]was with[/i] him.

David said God's gentleness had made him great.

Merry Christmas to you all :-)

And God's love to you.

"And Samuel said to all the people, See him (Saul) whom the Lord hath chosen, [i]that there is none like him among all the people[/i]" (I Sam. 10:24)

Compare this to:

"And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, [i]that there is none like him in the earth..[/i]"

Did God say this regarding Saul because of his physical features? God looks upon the heart, the same standard he used later to pick out David among his tall, handsome brethren.

Yes..the very first instructions for worship to God given to him by Samuel were not obeyed. Nor do you see the love for God that is clearly seen in David.

Yes, this is when he fell. But in the beginning of his reign, God gave Saul a new heart (1 Sam. 9:10). The Spirit of God would come upon Saul as it came upon Samson, and godly anger would burn in him (1 Sam. 11:6).

Can you show me where you see Saul manifesting His love for God or having jealousy for His name?

Sure, how about when it was reported to Saul that the men of Israel were eating meat with blood in it? (I Sam. 14:33) What was Saul's reaction? He rebuked the people and obeyed the law of Moses, and commanded them to drain all the blood before eating the meat. Then, after this:

"...Saul built an altar to the Lord. It was the first of the altars he built for the Lord" (I Sam. 14:35).

Shortly after this, however, things spiraled quickly downhill :).

Brother Paul,

I think the passage you mentioned may have been in regards to Saul's features, but, maybe it could have been his disposition also. He may have even been a great man?

But if he was, wouldn't that give an opportunity to demonstrate how even our best are not up to the challenge of walking with God, in and of themselves? After all, this was the king of Israel, a people who heretofore had been ruled by God Himself. For when the people asked for a King, God told Samuel

[i]...they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them[/i]

And so, the man that was to rule them, was ruling them in God's stead. What a high challenge to put it lightly!

David said of this:

"The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me, He that ruleth over men [i]must be[/i] just, ruling in the fear of God. And [i]he shall be[/i] as the light of the morning, [i]when[/i] the sun riseth, [i]even[/i] a morning without clouds; [i]as[/i] the tender grass [i]springing[/i] out of the earth by clear shining after rain."

- 2Samuel chapter 23 verses 3-4(KJV)

But even david says of his own reign

[i]Although my house be not so with God...[/i]

So perhaps Saul was a man of shining character and integrity, yet was that enough to reign over God's people? Could that sustain him and enable him to rule as God?

A while back I was meditating on the passage where Goliath is challenging the armies of Israel. It says that as Goliath was challenging them, when Saul and all of Israel heard it

[i]...they were dismayed, and greatly afraid[/i]

This made me to think how even the best of us are not up to the challenge of the Devil. Only the man of God's choosing was. Who came in the power and name of God, by faith and not in his own strength. So it was with David against Goliath. So it was with Christ against Satan.

It reminded me of the Hymn A Mighty Fortress is our God

A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing;
Our helper He, amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing:
For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.

Did we in our own strength confide, our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side, the Man of God’s own choosing:
Dost ask who that may be? Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabaoth, His Name, from age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.

And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim, we tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.

That word above all earthly powers, no thanks to them, abideth;
The Spirit and the gifts are ours through Him Who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also;
The body they may kill: God’s truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.

Blessings to you,

"And he had a choice and handsome son whose name was Saul. There was not a more handsome person than he among the children of Israel. From his shoulders upward he was taller than any of the people."

Are you prepared to use this scripture as the qualifying factor God used to anoint Saul ruler over Israel? Physical features? I would rather think that the Holy Spirit mentioned Saul's physical traits to contrast the people's qualifications over God's. I contest that Saul had both, and that's why He was chosen by both the people [i]and[/i] God.

Samuel told Saul, "...you have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you. [i]Had you kept it, the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever.[/i]"

God was not interested in Saul's physical features, but in his obedience, which was the sole factor, and Saul had to be tested. I believe God had chosen him in the beginning, because he saw potential, he somehow saw humility and godly traits. God even gave him a new heart. But Saul was tested and flunked and thus rejected.

"..he had a choice and handsome son"

Interesting thing is I think the scripture says that David was fair also.

Would suggest again to look up the verses in 1st and 2nd Samuel that say God was with David.

Could this be the difference?

EDIT: I think the same thing is said of Joseph and Samuel.

Brothers and Sisters I just had to jump into this one because I have spoken on the subject so many times and there is something for both sides of this "discussion" :-) ... There is no doubt that God chose Saul and we cannot know the mind of God in every thing but I believe the scripture gives us a very good indication why the all knowing God chose Saul knowing what he was going to do in advance just as He does with each of us even though we most definitely have the ability to choose...

Consider these scriptures please: 1 Samuel 8:17 - 18 (NASB) 17“He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants. 18“Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”

1 Samuel 10:19 (NASB) 19“But you have today rejected your God, who delivers you from all your calamities and your distresses; yet you have said, ‘No, but set a king over us!’ Now therefore, present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes and by your clans.”

God had said to Samuel "they have not rejected you but they have rejected me" And I believe Saul is a prototype of the man of sin that is coming, the "anti-David" if you will that comes in sheep's clothing but is THE WOLF in person.

And then look at these the contrast is between the character chosen by men and the character chosen by God (and I know that one scripture speaks of God choosing Saul but the above scriptures tell us why). He had a choice, just as Pharaoh had a choice:
1 Samuel 12:13 - 14 (NASB) 13“Now therefore, here is the king whom you have chosen, whom you have asked for, and behold, the LORD has set a king over you. 14“If you will fear the LORD and serve Him, and listen to His voice and not rebel against the command of the LORD, then both you and also the king who reigns over you will follow the LORD your God.

But like Pharoah and Ahab and many others, God knew that choice that would be made after being confronted with truth and all of it worked together as all things do for the glory of God...
1 Samuel 13:14 (NKJV) 14But now your kingdom shall not continue. The LORD has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the LORD has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you.”

\t
1 Samuel 16:1 (NKJV) 1Now the LORD said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I am sending you to Jesse the Bethlehemite. For I have provided Myself a king among his sons
."

Edit to say that Saul was the "people's choice" and David was God's Choice.

Clint

:-) :-)

Did Saul ever really want to be that '.. other man'?

Hi Dorcas,

Good question. I would have to say, in all fairness to Saul, yes, and I base this off the godly attributes he exhibited in his younger years. We really don't know how long he ruled before things started going bad. Such is the cancerous effect of power in the wrong hands (or heart). But I don't believe the honorable traits in his youth were feigned; I believe such qualities of grace and reverence for the Lord and the Lord's prophet are what caused God to single him out in the first place for king.

Israel lusted after a king and God gave them one according to their lust. David's "heart after God" is more of God's qualifying factor (if there is such a thing)

This is true, the king was given according to their lust, though this does not mean God deliberately gave them a bad king. We find, for example, the reverse in Mannaseh: the king starts off bad (really bad), repents, and finishes good. The truth is, you can't prove from scripture that Saul's reign, from the very beginning, was disingenuous.

It was God's will for David to be king because David would typified Christ. God knew this all along.

Brother, I won't argue this. But this doesn't prove that Saul was never a man after God; it only shows that God knew he would eventually fail and David would be crowned in his stead, ushering in the Messiah through Judah rather than Benjamin.

It was God's will to raise up a man "not after God's own heart" and then to "raise a man up after God's own heart". Just like it was God's will for Abraham to have children by Hagar...before Sarah. How do you know this? Because Galatians 4 - a type of the law (God doesn't make mistakes). In the same way God used Saul for His own purpose.

Ah, but Galatians was written [i]after[/i] Genesis; the impetuosity with Hagar wasn't prophesied. We can draw bullseyes around the arrows, especially concerning the law. We've drifted into theological assumptions here, a new debate, one regarding the absolute sovereignty of God (which I do not deny), that everything we do, say, think, feel, has already been pre-ordained by God, and I'm still not so sure about this. I still believe the decisions of men may have a bit of clout in the sovereign workings of God (according to God's own will, that is :0) in certain areas. Ah, but what do I know! I'm just a dumb mortal creature, a pile of dust with some breath in the nostrils.

If those Godly traits were there before God called him what happened to them after God called him?

The same thing that happened to Solomon's wisdom when God said he would tear the kingdom from his hands. Interesting that wise king Solomon turned into a type of ferocious Saul, seeking to murder Jeroboam, the new king "chosen" by God to rule over Israel.

God does not call people based on godly traits. God calls people based on His Own Call.

Amen - God "called" and anointed Saul, though I don't see how this disproves Saul's genuine godliness in the beginning of his reign (if he was, in fact, as you propose, ungodly).

Here, brother:

If those Godly traits were there before God called him what happened to them after God called him?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The same thing that happened to Solomon's wisdom when God said he would tear the kingdom from his hands. Interesting that wise king Solomon turned into a type of ferocious Saul, seeking to murder Jeroboam, the new king "chosen" by God to rule over Israel.

(edit) Remember, Saul's new heart - like Solomon's wisdom - was given by God while he was king.

At least one of those "godly traits" the shyness that made him hide behind the stuff can be intrepreted as humility but it ain't neccessarily so because many of us have met plenty of shy people that "seemed" humble until we pushed the right buttons ,i.e. told them truth that they did not want to hear, and that "self-conciousness" turned out to be a passive aggressive pride instead of humilty... that one I have seen too many times...

Clint

"And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great [i]men[/i] that [i]are[/i] in the earth."

- 2Samuel chapter 7 verse 9(KJV)

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [i]in whom[/i] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."

"I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;"

- Isaiah chapter 42 verses 1 and 6(KJV)

That is certainly true... and both of you brothers have raised some good points... Plenty, far too many have started out well like Joash and have fallen away for various and sundry reasons... all the more reason for all of us to humbly seek God daily "lest there be in any of us an evil heart of unbelief" or lest "some root of bitterness springing up trouble us and many be defiled"... too many "lests" in the Word for any of us to "think too highly of (ourselves)" or to "think we stand" when some trial or temptation that we did not anticipate catches us without being armed with prayer and the Sword of the Spirit..."he that endureth until the end"...

May we all do that by the grace of God...

God Bless you all and I hope if you are celebrating in the AM that you have a wonderful Christmas day.

Edit: not just "both" but all of you brothers AND sister..
Clint :-)

The change didn't bring Saul into a place of love for the Lord or to humility that brings about obediance.

How do you know? Were you there to see the immediate fruit? You have no idea how long Saul might have ruled, offering lawful sacrifices. We know he built many altars, and, at least in one place, he was zealous to keep the law pertaining to the ingestion of blood.

We also see that he, like David, would consult God before going into battle.

I think the passage you mentioned may have been in regards to Saul's features, but, maybe it could have been his disposition also. He may have even been a great man?

Yes, brother, I believe you are correct. The passage I mentioned was certainly not pertaining to Saul's spiritual stature. Bad judgment on my part, bad hermeneutics. I knew what I wanted to say, but bit off more than I could handle with that comparision to Job. As soon as I clicked "submit" I realized my error and slapped my forehead!

I am the first here to admit that Saul is not a character we normally think of when we extoll virtue, but, after reading his complete story several times (from the womb to the tomb) I have come to not be so critical in judging his heart from the very beginning. We just simply don't know, can't know - and inferential conjecture is really all we draw from with this, as sscott correctly pointed out.

I believe, like brother Zac, that Saul provides a great example of a man who starts off admirably enough in an anointed ministry - with traits of decency and honor and humility - but after God has exalted and used him, loses it all and ends up in a state of total disgrace. Think of Uzziah.

It reminds me of the people who sometimes win the lottery. In many cases, they come from simple, unassuming and humble professions like teachers and truck drivers. And, suddenly, they come into 5.7 million dollars and things get out of control. In terms of wealth and stature and glory, man, Saul hit the jackpot! He was catapulted unexpectedly into regal splendor; one moment he was searching for some runaway donkeys, the next moment Samuel was kissing him and pouring anointing oil over his head and he was king of Israel.

Now, these bus drivers and teachers who win the lottery and then go to shambles, can we justifiably say that they were of bad character [i]before[/i] they won the lottery? Or did the money change them? Hard to say...

Brother Paul

quote: Now, these bus drivers and teachers who win the lottery and then go to shambles, can we justifiably say that they were of bad character before they won the lottery? Or did the money change them? Hard to say...

I believe the majority of examples from the Word of God would favor the opinion that "trials" as well as "blessings" do not as much change essential character as "reveal" it. Joseph comes to mind as well as Job mentioned earlier in the thread. "When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold..."

Little foxes grow up to be big foxes if they are not aborted early. Over and over through the Word of God, God allowed all kinds of circumstances in the lives of those whom He had chosen... there is certainly the sense in which the circumstances helped to mould them, but on the other hand, that holy seed of faith in God, or that seed of trust in self, eventually produces after its kind.

1 Timothy 5:24 - 25 (NKJV) 24Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later. 25Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.

In the illustration of the man winning the lottery, what would prompt a man to play the lottery in the first place? Is his character changed by winning? I would say a hearty, NO. No more than Esau's character was changed by the circumstances following his bowl of beans experience... it was revealed.

Clint

Brother Paul, hope you had a very warm Christmas.

I appreciate very much what you shared here. This example of people who win the lottery is great!

"He was catapulted unexpectedly into regal splendor; one moment he was searching for some runaway donkeys, the next moment Samuel was kissing him and pouring anointing oil over his head and he was king of Israel."

This really helps to fill in the story brother. Thank you :) It's so easy to pass over these stories without reflecting on how all the circumstances and pressures come together.

About this...

"...can we justifiably say that they were of bad character before they won the lottery? Or did the money change them? Hard to say..."

I was meditating on some things yesturday and the story of Job came to mind. Job had that amazing testimony, that he eschewed, or maybe we could say he "shunned" all evil? In chapter 29 he recounts some of his former days, and as we read it we could say what a great man this was!!

He was like a judge in the streets(v7), princes and nobles held their peace at him(vs9-10) and even the aged men stood up when he went by!(v8). He was generous and considered the poor in their affliction(vs12-13,16) and he executed justice(v17). And when he spoke it was like the final word on anything(v22).

What an amazing testimony!

But as I was meditating I was reminded how Job had said, after all the evil had come upon him,

"For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me."

What I had been meditating upon was [i]self-preservation[/i]. I was considering what it would mean in my own life and how it would apply. In what ways do I seek to preserve my life or is there any of this in me?

And so I was thinking about this story of Job and what he said here. And it seemed to me that there was something of this in his heart, something that wanted to preserve all this greatness and glory which was upon him, or, or and, however it may be, even that he feared loosing it?

That which he greatly feared had come upon him.

Sometime ago, a friend and believer in the Lord Jesus also had shared with me a verse from this story of Job as I was beginning to go through a very difficult time to trial and testing. It was from the 23rd chapter, though it was probably the whole chapter he gave to me to read, slowly he said, this verse in particular stand out, where Job says

"But he knoweth the way that I take: [i]when[/i] he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold."

That has stayed with me. I was listening to the radio not long after this and the man was describing how the refiner purifies, and how he continues to heat it and heat it again and each time scraping off the impurities which rise to the surface and finally, and this seems so glorious, until finaly, get this...he can see his own reflection in the heated and liquified metal!

He can see his own reflection!

Well brother, I don't know about this process, I mean I cant say if this is really true or not but I don't see why it couldn't be. It seems reasonable to me.

So going back to Job, and to this question of character, as I was thinking about all of this, it seems to me that we never really know what all is in our hearts brother. We never know what is there, untill some circumstance comes along to draw it out. For Job, even though he had all this great testimony, wasn't there still things in him left to be purged?

Going back to chapter 29, and perhaps to tie this all in with Saul, and with David, perhaps what is all the difference in the world in all of this, is what Job said here...

"When the Almighty [i]was[/i] yet with me..."

and how he says in days before "God preserved me".

In chapter 23, isn't this his very lament, that he feels as though God is gone from him? that he cannot find him?

But isn't this the very thing that makes all the difference for us, if God is with us?

How much we need God brother. How much we need God.

Isn't God really proving this over and again in all His dealings with us, how much we need Him? even the [i]greatest[/i] among us?

What do you think?

Chris

In the illustration of the man winning the lottery, what would prompt a man to play the lottery in the first place?

This was just an example I used to show how one may come into extraordinary wealth and fame unexpectedly and almost overnight. Saul's notoriety and calling of God was not self-induced, nor was he desiring the bestowal of king. He tried to avoid it, he went and hid himself. I do not see this as a false humility; I actually believe the man was genuinely humble here, not at all looking for the colossal honor and responsibility of a military commander. Esau and Saul are incompatible in this, as Esau hungered for the stew; Saul was minding his own affairs, he asked nothing of God or Samuel (that is, in terms of his own glory). Saul's companion, if you remember, was the one who proposed visiting Samuel the Seer in the fist place - to perhaps get knowledge on whereabouts of the missing donkeys. And Saul was concerned to not to come empty-handed to the man of God.

This is not the actions of a lotto player; the only reason I brought the correlation between the lottery and Saul was to show how he came into extraordinary honor, riches and fame as if overnight...and how, through that fame and amazing increase and honor God eventually tested his obedience.

Saul, of course failed. My point here is that it is impossible to know the true state of Saul's heart from the very beginning. We know God gave him a new heart at the onset of his reign, and even Matthew Henry notes a certain time in Saul's rule where [i]his heart began to turn aside unto his own[/i].

Point well taken brother as well as Brother Chris's. BTW I have read both you brother's comments for some time here and have appreciated the thought and spirituality put into your comments. I suppose that may have been the :-) ulterior motive for jumping into the middle of this... looking for a bite of the fellowship.

God blesss you for your labor. I read your message from "years ago" and appreciated and agreed wholeheartedly.

Clint

I have read both you brother's comments for some time here and have appreciated the thought and spirituality put into your comments. I suppose that may have been the ulterior motive for jumping into the middle of this... looking for a bite of the fellowship.

God bless you, dear brother. It is a great privilege to fellowship with mature brethren like you and ChrisJD. Isn't it tricky discussing these OT characters? They're unique and different from those in the NT. The Holy Spirit would come upon a man like Balaam or Saul or Samson, and it can be quite confusing discussing the spiritual parameters and heart conditions by which God related and interacted with them. It's both fascinating and mysterious - at least that's how it is for me! I'm fairly confident in my meager theological leanings [i]after[/i] the cross; prior to Christ, however, the workings of God and sovereignity of the Holy Spirit and the relation of such between the heart conditions of old covenant Jewish men and pagan gentiles and kings is often befuddling.

I'm the first to admit here in the forum that [i]I just don't know[/i] certain things. Many things! I've said it before that it is very liberating to make a mistake here...and admit it publically! The most unsettling thing I can think of is to be always right or speak of all things pertaining to God with a kind of dead-on confidence. I messed up with the Job comparison, and sscott and you and ChrisJD rightly called it. I bless God for the sharpening grace of iron brethren.

Brother Paul

Brotehr Paul and clint and others,

I am so thankfull to have a place where I can talk with others like you.

Gratefull to God,

Chris