Mormonism and Joel Osteen

I saw this on another forum so I'm putting it here. This isn't to smear or mock Joel Osteen, but to alert others to his dangerous theology

NEWS BRIEF: "Joel Osteen, Interviewed by Chris Wallace of Fox News, December 23, 2007

Transcript of this Interview

"WALLACE: And what about Mitt Romney? And I've got to ask you the question, because it is a question whether it should be or not in this campaign, is a Mormon a true Christian?

OSTEEN: Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that's what I believe, so, you know, I'm not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are. And so, you know, Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me, and I don't think he would — anything would stop me from voting for him if that's what I felt like."

Not satisfied with Osteen's initial response, Wallace continues, taking a much stronger stand, one which is founded on more knowledge about Mormonism than Pastor Osteen evidently possesses!

"WALLACE: So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?

OSTEEN: I probably don't get hung up in them because I haven't really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don't know. I certainly can't say that I agree with everything that I've heard about it, but from what I've heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that's a common bond."

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Lord continue to protect those that are yours from these false teachers.

Blessings Greg

Osteen again? go figure.

I think we've beat a dead horse long enough...that the horse is black and blue.

but from what I've heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that's a common bond."

[u][b]James 2:19[/b][/u]

[i]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble![/i]

Untill Jesus comes we will in some form or another be ruled by man.
No country has a theocracy.
And when you get down to it all churches and believers are flawed and poisoned with the hand of man.
Read willim brannam's prophecy and then take a good look at hillary.
She will make mitt look like a gift from heaven.
Joel knows we will never have a theocracy. Most any of the democrats will destroy what little Godliness is left.

David

Friends, not at all to be contrary here, but hoping to offer more perspective, if I could share this, that love

"thinks no evil"

Ignorance isn't nescessarily to be commended.

But neither is it good to look for evil, or to dig it up?

Love thinks no evil brothers. Could we say it does not look for it either?

Hi Katy-Did,

Thank you for your response.

Katy, you said

"Paul said it is a shame to even mention what they do in Secret."

Neither is it good to look for evil, or to dig it up.

Chris

When I was very newly converted I was participating on a message boards and during one of the discussions someone asked me,something to the effect:

"have you bought gold from Him, tried in the fire?"

Looking back I think it was an appropriate question. Maybe also if we are always looking at the dimness of others.

ChrisJD

Could you explain what you mean by:

quote: Neither is it good to look for evil, or to dig it up.

I cannot quite follow what you mean here nor about whom you are refering... is it Joel or Mitt?

Either way:

Perhaps it is not a matter of looking for and digging up but “discerning”. And on that subject the Word is very clear:
Psalms 97:10 (KJV) 10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Amos 5:15 (NKJV) 15 Hate evil, love good; Establish justice in the gate. It may be that the LORD God of hosts Will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

Joseph in this case representing Israel who had gone astray for so long because of compromise with evil and were in danger of severe judgments… that should sound familiar…

1 Corinthians 5:6 (NKJV) 6Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Galatians 5:9 - 10 (NKJV) 9A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.

Just agreed with you on another thread, but cannot see your point on this one:-( .

Clint

ChrisJD wrote:
When I was very newly converted I was participating on a message boards and during one of the discussions someone asked me,something to the effect:

"have you bought gold from Him, tried in the fire?"

Looking back I think it was an appropriate question. Maybe also if we are always looking at the dimness of others.

HomeFree89 wrote:
This isn't to smear or mock Joel Osteen, but to alert others to his dangerous theology.

So your really good if you can post someones name along with your reasons and not smear them, wow! just how do you do that? :-(

Heres another for Pastor Joel I think him and Jesus are running a close first for there names being brought up here, pretty sad when Joel's name is brought up more than Jesus. :-(

To me your post is political if it involves Mitt Romney, but some folks just like to keep the pot stirred to bad that pot don't have some good old home made beef stew in it, then it would be worth keeping the pot stirred. :-P

brentw wrote:
Osteen again? go figure.

I think we've beat a dead horse long enough...that the horse is black and blue.

That poor horse has been kicked, beat to death, buried, dug up, kicked again, beat to death, buried again that there folks is one tough horse, I wonder if one day when it's finally dead, if someone here will be able to resurrect it. :-P

Brother Clint, wanted to say in the other thread that it is good to have you with us sharing with one another the things of the Lord.

About this,

"I cannot quite follow what you mean here nor about whom you are refering... is it Joel or Mitt?"

First brother, thank you for being gracious in asking what I meant.

I mean that I do not think it is good for us to go looking for evil, or to go after it in looking for it, or to do so in bringing it up before each other, or to dig it up in other's lives or actions.

If God directs us to do so that is one thing.

But should we take it upon ourselves to do it otherwise?

Is this how the Lord Jesus spent His time?

Surely he rebuked wickedness, the scripture says of Him(or I believe it is speaking of Him there) that He would be a swift witness against it(Mal 3:5). But did He do it of His own accord? Did He sit in the gate and go on and on about the corruption of Herod, or the blindness of the religous leaders, or the oppression of the Romans, or the hardness of the people's hearts?

Or was it done in a time and setting, in a context, at an appropriate time, for God's purposes and glory.

Brother, I just wonder if all of this resembles more Mar's Hill than the Senates and courts of Zion, or of those who sit in Judgement at her gates.

I don't know brother. I am nothing. If God has told us to bring something up, who can say anything against it. But if we are doing it for some other reason, is that good? As with other things I think of our motives and the spirit and intent of what we are doing.

Wishing you all peace and grace from God,

Christopher

Katy,

Heat is good if it brings light also.

There are things that bring only heat, which are nothing more than friction.

I don't really know because I am not God but "my guess" would be that God would "probably" use folks with just a speck in there eye to go about exposing to the world Ministers and not the folks like me with a log in my eye and that is why I know that is not my calling.

Yes if you only have a speck in your eye go for it, but I sure am not going out and about exposing any Pastors that to me personally would be like the pot calling the kettle black. Now I do know there are the "O the so,so real Holy" that does no wrong that I feel God would probably use these folks to call out these Pastors and that's wonderful, because then that would rule out God sending a hypocrite to call them out.

I really wished I did have the time to call out the evil of the world, but I really have to spend to much time on myself so I just never have the time, it must be such a Wonderful Heavenly feeling to feel so good about your walk you can go about exposing others faults, God that has to be a good feeling, God I wished I could feel that way for just a few minutes, but I don't think I will make it there until I am in Heaven. :-)

Is there a differnce between rebuke and gossip?

If so, what would it be?

The wise and mature man finds his satisfaction in making a contribution that is worthy of praise, whether or not he ever receives any.

I have been saved through faith and this not from myself, it is the gift of God "not by my works", so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Let's pray for him, brothers and sisters, and let's see SI forum members (and readers out there also) really lay hold on God for this man's soul to be saved from every power that seeks to destroy him..... If all we do is make sure he's safe in God, everything else can go to the wall. He might have to lose his reputation, his livelihood (temporarily) and his status in the eyes of certain people, but... he'd survive, and be a whole lot better for his losses, in the end. Who will join me?

dorcas wrote:

I have a question: well, it started out as one, but there are several, and none of them are rhetorical.... So.... does anyone who posts around Joel Osteen's shortcomings, also pray for him?

Or, has anyone who has posted on his apparent lostness, prayed for him? I realise you don't need to answer me because you may consider that to be 'classified' information... but I can ask.

However, I want to ask this also.... Has anyone thought what it might be like to be him, inheriting that huge place and organisation - money etc? Has anyone wondered how big a team actually runs all that behind-the-scenes business operation?

Has any one of you given half an hour's meditation to what would be involved for him to walk away from it all somehow? And what if he promised his father he would stay? Is he released from such a commitment or more bound to it? What if there are other pressures on him to keep fronting the business because of other things which would be too enormous for him to tackle single-handedly?

You know it's really easy to imagine this could never happen to you, but people don't end up in his kind of situation overnight, and they don't necessarily know where they're heading when they start out on a tangent. It's not until they are looking back at the earth continuing in its orbit and they are diverging further and further out into no-man's land, that they realise... and then what?

Do we really think Joel Osteen hasn't [i]noticed[/i] the hostile interviewers lining up to question him, or the questions about other people's salvation - for which he cannot possibly make even an educated guess at the state of their heart before God - or the spoofs being made of his preaching on youtube? There is probably a team of people employed solely to look after his public image. What kind of a bondage is that to live under daily?

So... brethren... do we believe God can truly save him and his family out of all this death and destruction which hangs over him, or are we just going to carry on wagging our fingers like those who passed by Jesus on the cross?

I know he sounds weak... but maybe... just maybe... he's never had much of a chance to be strong in God? How many pastor's sons have a whole bunch of hang-ups which no-one cares that they get space to deal with? When did he ever get peace to grieve the death of his father (for instance)? I mean, these things take years to sort out, if they aren't given natural space at the time they are asking for attention....

When I see him... I see his empty eyes... and I see a young man who is out of his depth... So...

Let's pray for him, brothers and sisters, and let's see SI forum members (and readers out there also) really lay hold on God for this man's soul to be saved from every power that seeks to destroy him..... If all we do is make sure he's safe in God, everything else can go to the wall. He might have to lose his reputation, his livelihood (temporarily) and his status in the eyes of certain people, but... he'd survive, and be a whole lot better for his losses, in the end. Who will join me?

Good post, Dorcas.

Yes, I have been praying for him and for those who are sincerely trying to seek God, but are getting tangled up in some of his teachings. This thread has also served to make me examine and pray for my own areas of short coming.

Brothers and sister, I have in ways regreted posting this transcript, but then I feel there was a point to it (Eph. 5:11). This was in no way to be a political post or to smear Osteen, but it seems some have taken it that way.

Please forgive me if I have offended any of you. I will be more prayerful in the future before I post.

Jordan

HomeFree89 wrote:
So.... does anyone who posts around Joel Osteen's shortcomings, also pray for him?
Jordan

I do Pray around Pastor Joel's shortcomings he is my Pastor I Pray for him everyday. I also Pray around all of my shortcomings and our shortcomings here, trust me Pastor Joel don't have any patent on needing Prayer. :-)

Brothers and sister, I have in ways regreted posting this transcript, but then I feel there was a point to it (Eph. 5:11).

This thread has also served to make me examine and pray for my own areas of short coming.

I will be more prayerful in the future before I post.

thank you jordan for this thread.

phil

MrBillPro wrote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
So.... does anyone who posts around Joel Osteen's shortcomings, also pray for him?
Jordan

I do Pray around Pastor Joel's shortcomings he is my Pastor I Pray for him everyday. I also Pray around all of my shortcomings and our shortcomings here, trust me Pastor Joel don't have any patent on needing Prayer. :-)

Just so you know, that quote was from Dorcas. I just quoted her. :-)

Jordan

Katy-did wrote:
Isn't the spec in your eye referring to sin? And Isn't that a little different then false doctrine?

You do read what you write I hope, re-read what you wrote above, :-)
Yes False Doctrine is sin "UNLESS" you don't think lying is a sin, wouldn't teaching something to folks that is not Biblical lying? it would be to me but maybe not to you but thats ok if we disagree. I personally would call Teaching False Doctrine a sin because it's a lie.

There is another generation the scripture mentions. One that is clean in their own eyes, yet are not washed from their sins.

Are there among them:

those who kill others and think they do God a service?

or those who think they've laid down their lives but cannot resist defending themselves whenever they feel challenged?

We all can find scriptures to promote our own agenda also, I use to have a great sermon from a guy his name was Blake maybe I can dig it up somewhere but he said it nicely in this sermon "Both you and I read the Bible day and night; but you see black where I see white." it's one of the most powerful sermons I have ever read, it really helped me look in the mirror more each day and make sure when I left out in my travels I promoted Gods agenda and not mine.

I saw the interview with Mr. Osteen and I was sadly not surprised with what I heard. What I think Mr. Osteen needs to realize is that if he chooses not to preach on sin and teach doctrine, then he is NOT called to be a pastor. Pastors FEED their sheep............they teach their sheep/equip their sheep, so the sheep can go out and do the work of the ministry. Mr. Osteen very clearly said that his "gifting" was to encourage people, not to speak on sin issues or teach deep doctrine. If this is so, he may have a gift as an exhorter, but he certainly has not been called to be a Pastor.

This is not an issue of style/personality, but one of substance in regards to one's "calling". As for this being addressed in a public venue by confessing Christians, since it was aired publically for all the world to see, it is most certainly not gossip. The content of what he said is very much up for discussion. Blessings.......

I do Pray around Pastor Joel's shortcomings he is my Pastor I Pray for him everyday

Hi MrBillPro,

I hope you've had a wonderful Christmas and are looking forward to growing more in grace and knowledge of Christ in the year 2008. By God's grace, I know I am!

I know you consider Mr. Osteen your pastor, and I just wanted to ask you if you've ever been with him one-on-one for a period of time, or sat in his office or spoke with him personally over the phone. Does he know that you consider him your pastor, does he know you exist, would he know you by name or face if someone were to mention you to him?

These questions aren't meant to incite further debate; I was just curious to find out whether the man you claim to be your pastor knows you are one of his entrusted lambs.

Brother Paul

I'm new here and I love this site.

I just wanted to say, that I don't think there is anything wrong with megachurches....as long as they tell the truth about Jesus Christ. I also think that if someone is comfortable with attending a megachurch, but not serving there at all or attending a small group, they need to reevaluate why they go.

Joel Osteen is dangerous. The reason he's dangerous is because he represents a new wave of preaching that shines on man and not Jesus. Real preaching glorifies Jesus no matter the cost. Joel Osteen makes people think they are saved, just because they might feel good. He may or may not be a brother, but God help him if he continues preaching like he does.

Let me also clarify that love, mercy and grace should be a part of every message. We are called to be a people filled with joy....in God. But we won't sacrifice or replace Jesus with a feel-good message which does nothing but glorify this earth. This earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord lasts forever.

Sorry I don't have many scripture references, but I'm at work right now. God bless!

What is the problem with Joel Osteen?

He preaches a message in which Christ exists to make you better, and to give you victory over all your short comings as long as you do your part.

This is not much different than Finney or Wesley, so why are you all taking him to task for emulating those who are so highly esteemed among those on this board?

roaringlamb wrote:
What is the problem with Joel Osteen?

He preaches a message in which Christ exists to make you better, and to give you victory over all your short comings as long as you do your part.

This is not much different than Finney or Wesley, so why are you all taking him to task for emulating those who are so highly esteemed among those on this board?

are you serious brother? Wesley and finney may have a different view on [i]some[/i] of the doctrines you and calvin has, but Osteen Ignores in MY opinion half of the book. There is a difference

I'm sorry brother, but Olsteen rarely says that it's a work of Christ which overcomes these shortcomings. From all the audio I have heard from him and seen on TV, he very much emphasizes a humanistic philosophy which contradicts scripture. Scripture says, John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.". Osteen repeatedly says that Muslims, Mormons and others who do not believe in Jesus might be saved.

This is not much different than Finney or Wesley

Brother, I love you and highly esteem your views of grace...and I concur with you on many, many points. I do think, however, that you are doing disservice to the integrity of your posts by constantly linking Wesley and Finney in such ways. You may not realize it, but you are stooping to condescention here, to the same level of those who blanket-blackball our Calvinistic leanings. Be careful, brother, that in your zeal and fight for Biblical truth you do not become guilty of what others are doing to you.

I would be expecially careful with flinging mud publically upon the name of John Wesley. John was a man of God, brother, he and his brother Charles enriched Protestantism in ways you cannot comprehend according to your limited knowledge at this time. We will not know the full impact the Wesley brothers and the early Methodist church had on the world until the Judgment.

Brother Paul

are you serious brother?

Absolutely.

Finney and Wesley denied original sin, and created a vacuum in which men like Osteen can preach what they preach.

If man is indeed good, he only needs a little help whether it be moral, financial, etc. Then the preaching becomes all about "what I must do" instead of "what God has done in Christ".

Sadly many will recoil at the comparison, but it is much closer that you think, and the common denominator in each is that they make man big and Christ little.

by roaringlamb on 2007/12/27 21:19:36

What is the problem with Joel Osteen?

He preaches a message in which Christ exists to make you better, and to give you victory over all your short comings as long as you do your part.

This is not much different than Finney or Wesley, so why are you all taking him to task for emulating those who are so highly esteemed among those on this board?

Wow, brother, this statement is unbelievable. This is definitely not the fruit that 'calvinism' of Spurgeon, and especially George Whitefield produced. Just be reminded of this statement of Whitefield:

Whitfield was asked this question, “Do you expect to see John Wesley in Heaven?”

“No,” was his reply.

But then Whitfield continued, “John Wesley will be so close to the Throne of Glory, and I will be so far away, I will hardly get a glimpse of him.”

This is the fruit of humbleness and life that is required to be seen in the contemporary calvinists, not just poor doctrine that is empty of life.

God bless you brother,
Kire

I would be expecially careful with flinging mud publically upon the name of John Wesley. John was a man of God, brother, he and his brother Charles enriched Protestantism in ways you cannot comprehend according to your limited knowledge at this time.

Brother Paul you know I esteem you as much as you me, and I wish I could agree with you here. But we must ask ourselves, "how much of Historical Christian teaching can a man deny, and still be considered Christian?"

The Mormons deny that Christ was who He is, the Jehovah's Witnesses deny who Christ is, and we say they are cults.

However when Finney denies Christ's saving work and His person, why do we accept it? I do not think any on here would prop up Immanuel Kant and say that he was a wonderful Christian(he was not by the way), but his views are almost identical to Finney's.

The reason people do not wish to question these men is because of pragmatism. What they did seemed to "work" so it must be right.

Wesley lied about his editing of a work by Zanchius, and refused to repent when called out on it. If you would like I can give the link to the work, and I also have both the original and the altered copy of it.

Wesley also denied the complete work of Christ by saying that He alone could not save people, but rather our salvation is up to ourselves, or our decision.

How can a man who constantly decides for sin suddenly decide against sin unless his heart has been changed? Does man posses the ability to do this?

If you say yes, then you are in line with the Arminians, Roman Catholics, and a whole host of other "synergistic" groups who base salvation upon man and his work.

If you say no, then you are in line with the "monergists" who are along the lines of Calvin, Luther, Henry, and the vast majority of scholars and Puritans.

There is no middle ground, either man is dead ins sin, or he is wounded. But he cannot be both.

Love and grace to you in our wondrous Savior.

it seems to me you are grasping for everything brother.....but you know i have read some very strange things Calvin said also, things that seem to contradict his whole doctrine, but to take out and nullify their whole work because of a bit here and a bit there....

PaulWest wrote:

I know you consider Mr. Osteen your pastor, and I just wanted to ask you if you've ever been with him one-on-one for a period of time, or sat in his office or spoke with him personally over the phone. Does he know that you consider him your pastor, does he know you exist, would he know you by name or face if someone were to mention you to him?
Brother Paul

Well Paul since my daughter and I are both Prayer partners there have and been for 12 years, yes I have been one on one with Pastor John before he passed on,Dodie,Pastor Joel and Victoria and I even know his children, and yes he would know who I am and his brother Paul knows me also and yes he knows I consider him my pastor, and this is really going to blow your mind, I have actually held his hand up front and prayed for him personally. :-)
I really think it's wonderful my Pastor get more attention here than Jesus does he must be doing something right.

Can you tell him that I'd really like to hear him preach a bit more from the Bible and the power of the cross then?

But we must ask ourselves, "how much of Historical Christian teaching can a man deny, and still be considered Christian?"

Brother, I base my faith off scripture and not men's interpretations of scripture. I see the theology of Wesley valid in scripture, and I see Spurgeon verified also. I see certain aspects of Finney validated and I see Matthew Henry is right on also. I refuse to align myself with a superhero such as Calvin or Wesley or Spurgeon or anyone of the early church fathers and fight exclusively on that front. I only fully trust Paul and Peter and James and John through the filter of the Holy Ghost as revealed to me personally. All else is just spice on the food.

I have told you this before, and I'll remind you again. Not everyone interepts the writings of Wesley and Finney through the same glasses. You've said certain drastic things about Finney that I've never seen in his works, though I've read the same as you. When I read Wesley, I do not see huge blinking neon letters and an alarm: "ORIGINAL SIN DENIED. HERETIC. WARNING. HERETIC."

If anyone should see this and be justified in calling it out or taking offense to such "heresy" it should be I, for I have an extensive library, the bulk of my books being Puritanic in form. I read Arthur Pink, and quote Matthew Henry and Watson and Gurnall prolifically. But I am able, brother, by the grace of God, to feed from a variety of food on God's table without the paranoia of ingesting poison. I can feast from Tozer, Washer, Ravenhill, Piper, Wesley, and Whitefield at the same table. I can dine on Lightfoot, drink up Fletcher, snack on Spurgeon and have a light apertiff with Finney. The key is to exercise moderation with any preacher you may be influenced by, and with any system you feel inclined to promulgate with all your zeal. Let all things be filtered through [i]the balance[/i] of scripture, and let it be done in wise moderation.

partofaplan wrote:
Can you tell him that I'd really like to hear him preach a bit more from the Bible and the power of the cross then?

You know bottom line is with some of you folks here your like little kids you want it all right now, you have "NO" discipline at all to give God an opportunity to work through Prayers in someone's life. Those that talk about Pastor Joel here are the most hypercritical folks I have ever seen in my life, you post tons and ton of scriptures and opinions and copy and paste miles of text from someone else's "opinions" but hardly ever your own words, how Godly and Holy you seem to be but yet your so quick to judge, that your like that kid in a candy store just can't wait to get your hands on the candy. You might want to take a break ever once in a while to give "GOD" a chance to work in someone life, is this what you do to your wives and husbands and children when there out of line? rather than Praying for them and letting God work in there lives you just start slamming them openly to all your friends? One day when you find out the Master "is" still at work you might not be so quick to judge, what ever happened to God's timing you folks forget about God's timing? Good Lordy why on earth some folks can Preach all day to everyone but forget some of the very simplest things like "GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL" is beyond me, the way some rush here to judge and slam folks, you act like God has sat down and put you in control, give God a break and let him work unless he don't work for you anymore, and if that's the case well carry on soldiers.

PaulWest wrote:
But I am able, brother, by the grace of God, to feed from a variety of food on God's table without the paranoia of ingesting poison. I can feast from Tozer, Washer, Ravenhill, Piper, Wesley, and Whitefield at the same table. I can dine on Lightfoot, drink up Fletcher, snack on Spurgeon and have a light apertiff with Finney. The key is to exercise moderation with any preacher you may be influenced by, and with any system you feel inclined to promulgate with all your zeal. Let all things be filtered through the balance of scripture, and let it be done in wise moderation.

that is the most wonderful thing i heard all week

I have told you this before, and I'll remind you again. Not everyone interepts the writings of Wesley and Finney through the same glasses. You've said certain drastic things about Finney that I've never seen in his works, though I've read the same as you.

No but there are souls who will never understand the work of Christ on their behalf because they are whipped and beaten with morals, and told "do more", "earn your keep", and it is because of this, that I care.

Christ has redeemed His sheep, they did nothing to make it true, even the faith to believe it is a gift. He is compassionate, He is the end of the law to all that believe. His work and His work alone is the basis upon our entry into Heaven. To dare say that man is the one who decides, or works to merit Heaven is antichristic( as anti means "in place of" as well as "against").

Because we all use the same terms, it seems that there is a uniformity. However we(not you and I, but in general) have different meanings. Grace is not the same thing to an Arminian as it is to a Calvinist. Justification does not mean the same thing to an Arminian as it does to a Lutheran or Reformed person.

You are free to listen to as many types of preaching as you wish, but just because there is a grain of truth in something does not excuse the poison surrounding it.

Perhaps I have overstayed my time here, I do not know. I do not understand how it is ok to openly accuse and write posts about Calvin, but to dare touch Finney or Wesley is near anathema? Confusing to say the least :-(

hmmhmm wrote:

PaulWest wrote:
But I am able, brother, by the grace of God, to feed from a variety of food on God's table without the paranoia of ingesting poison. I can feast from Tozer, Washer, Ravenhill, Piper, Wesley, and Whitefield at the same table. I can dine on Lightfoot, drink up Fletcher, snack on Spurgeon and have a light apertiff with Finney. The key is to exercise moderation with any preacher you may be influenced by, and with any system you feel inclined to promulgate with all your zeal. Let all things be filtered through the balance of scripture, and let it be done in wise moderation.

that is the most wonderful thing i heard all week

And I second that! :-)

You know bottom line is with some of you folks here your like little kids you want it all right now, you have "NO" discipline at all to give God an opportunity to work through Prayers in someone's life. Those that talk about Pastor Joel here are the most hypercritical folks I have ever seen in my life, you post tons and ton of scriptures and opinions and copy and paste miles of text from someone else's "opinions" but hardly ever your own words, how Godly and Holy you seem to be but yet your so quick to judge, that your like that kid in a candy store just can't wait to get your hands on the candy. You might want to take a break ever once in a while to give "GOD" a chance to work in someone life, is this what you do to your wives and husbands and children when there out of line? rather than Praying for them and letting God work in there lives you just start slamming them openly to all your friends? One day when you find out the Master "is" still at work you might not be so quick to judge, what ever happened to God's timing you folks forget about God's timing? Good Lordy why on earth some folks can Preach all day to everyone but forget some of the very simplest things like "GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL" is beyond me, the way some rush here to judge and slam folks, you act like God has sat down and put you in control, give God a break and let him work unless he don't work for you anymore, and if that's the case well carry on soldiers.

I apologize for the crude nature of my post. You are very right. We cannot takeover the work that is up to God.

However, we are supposed to judge and keep each other accountable and pray for one another. I honestly do pray for Pastor Joel, his family and Lakewood church, because it is the most influential church in America. But I'm not going to say that I feel comfortable with letting his preaching go unexamined.

I would never say that Pastor Joel is not saved. In fact, he very well could be saved, but I do not believe that he is leading people down the correct road and this is dangerous. I know plenty of people how think they are saved but their fruit is far from it, because they believed that by accepting Christ and praying a prayer they are now guaranteed heaven. Sermons such as Osteen's (not just him) promote this and this is very dangerous.

The fact is we NEED to judge and examine ourselves first, then one another and believe me when I say I know I'm far from perfect, but I adamantly want to seek the truth and lead others to it.

roaringlamb wrote:
To dare say that man is the one who decides

actually Calvin sort of did

[i]“No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief”[/i] - John Calvin

:-P ;-)

partofaplan wrote:

In fact, he very well could be saved, but I do not believe that he is leading people down the correct road and [b]this is dangerous.[/b] I know plenty of people how think they are saved but their fruit is far from it, because they believed that by accepting Christ and praying a prayer they are now guaranteed heaven. Sermons such as Osteen's (not just him) promote this and [b]this is very dangerous.[/b]

Brother, could you be more specific here, what you mean that he is not leading people down the correct road? If he is not leading to correct road, then to which road he is leading?

And also you stated, that this is very dangerous, could you be more specific, what kind of danger this kind of preaching could cause? Is this some kind of light danger, is it preaching the gospel with some minor differences, or it is the danger of preaching the gospel that is enemy of the cross of Christ?

Brother, could you be more specific here, what you mean that he is not leading people down the correct road? If he is not leading to correct road, then to which road he is leading?

And also you stated, that this is very dangerous, could you be more specific, what kind of danger this kind of preaching could cause? Is this some kind of light danger, is it preaching the gospel with some minor differences, or it is the danger of preaching the gospel that is enemy of the cross of Christ?

I recommend Ray Comfort's sermon "Hells Best Kept Secret" for clarification.

Hi Partofaplan, how are you? And welcome to the forums.

I wanted to comment on something you shared here,

"However, we are supposed to judge and keep each other accountable and pray for one another. I honestly do pray for Pastor Joel, his family and Lakewood church, because it is the most influential church in America. But I'm not going to say that I feel comfortable with letting his preaching go unexamined."

I wanted to say I appreciate this. And I think if we feel a tension between wanting to expose error and how we are to keep each other accountable that is a good thing, in my mind.

I think openly and publicly exposing and rebuking error is a very serious matter. And that it should be treated with the utmost seriousness and regard, for truthfulness, and in considering the consequences. The integrity of someone's public character and reputation should not be treated lightly.

One danger lies in that, if we make an error in judgment, we may be laying charges of guilt at the feet of God Himself.

John the baptist said

"A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

And we are probably more familiar with how the Lord Jesus responded to Pilate in saying that he(Pilate) could have no power over Him, except it were given to him from above.

All of this is to say this is a serious matter.

We desperately need wisdom and direction from God, as always.

Chris

Some here do not want to give God a chance to work in someones life. They expect microwaved, freeze-dried, instant results?
We are victims of our culture. We want what we want, and we want it right now!
When a web page takes five seconds to load, we get upset. When we have to wait in line at the supermarket, we get irritated. And if we're in line at the bank behind an elderly person, we quickly forget that we will be old someday too. Unless we kill ourselves from our own impatience first.

In John Ortberg book, If You Want to Walk on Water, You've Got to Get Out of the Boat, notes that in America, your status in society reflects whether you have to wait. The lower your status, the more you have to wait on other people. The most "important" people make others wait for them.

God is the most important being in the entire universe. He's at the top. So it stands to reason that all of us have to wait for him. But that's not how we like it, so we get all worked up and try to hurry him along.

When you don't give "God a chance to work out a solution" and insist on an immediate answer, you're telling him to obey you, to hurry up because your way is best.

God will not be rushed people go through their entire life and never learn that lesson. They never believe the truth of Harry Emerson Fosdick's statement, "God is not a cosmic bell-boy."

Many of us want a "drive-through" life, but nothing worthwhile can be done in a rush. Fast food may be fast, but it's certainly not the tastiest, most nutritional meal you can eat. If we don't give God a chance to do things his way, in his time, we risk stepping outside his will--into failure.

When you give God a chance both time and opportunity to work you're obeying him, and obedience always brings blessings.

God's timing requires faith
No doubt about it, waiting is frustrating. Waiting on God takes faith. It takes faith that he will act, and faith that he will act in time. If your faith is weak, waiting on God can seem like torture.

However, God's goal isn't to torture us, but rather to strengthen our faith in him. When someone comes through for us, it's easier to trust them the next time.

If you've been disappointed by a lot of people throughout your life, you may have a hard time trusting anyone, including God. If you refuse to give God a chance and trust him, you'll live a life of anxiety and despair. [b][size=medium][font=Arial]If we don't give God a chance to do things his way, in his time, we risk stepping outside his will--into failure. Can't put it much plainer than that.[/font][/size][/b]

Katy-did wrote:

1 John 2:15-17

15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Good scriptures and I would say the ever soul on earth has gone against one or two of them in there life also, so is there a message here? :-)

I can see what you are talking about and I agree Mr Bill. I guess in my youthful zeal, I forgot that God has everything in His hands sometimes. I just feel a deep conviction about when the Gospel seems to come across as Jesus Lite sometimes.

I would like to also say that it is not impossible to be holy and to deny the lusts of this world IN CHRIST. If we remember that by being captivated by Our Lord is the only cure for selfishness and our own sinful desires, then we can have faith that what the scriptures say about denial of the world are entirely true and NOT impossible.

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660033]I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]

Certainly. Not just Joel Olsteen, but many other preachers point towards a "health and wealth" gospel which promotes the idea that one should come to Christ because of how he will improve your life. This is not why someone comes to Christ. Christ enhances and enlightens our life, but we do not seek Him because of His blessings. "Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you." He seems to talk about the blessings first and Jesus is just secondary. I'm sorry, but I've found that life gets pretty rough and when it does if I'm holding Christ secondary to His blessings, I quickly become discouraged. Christ alone and his life in us improves our lives NOT some good feeling. Therefore, it's dangerous because those who follow Osteen so closely and are thinking they're Christians may be likely to miss the whole "surrender" and "chastening" aspects of salvation.

I recommend Ray Comfort's sermon "Hells Best Kept Secret" for clarification.

partofaplan, thank you for the answers. I agree with what you said. And welcome to sermonindex, feel free to introduce yourself in the welcome section.

partofaplan wrote:
I can see what you are talking about and I agree Mr Bill. I guess in my youthful zeal, I forgot that God has everything in His hands sometimes. I just feel a deep conviction about when the Gospel seems to come across as Jesus Lite sometimes.

I would like to also say that it is not impossible to be holy and to deny the lusts of this world IN CHRIST. If we remember that by being captivated by Our Lord is the only cure for selfishness and our own sinful desires, then we can have faith that what the scriptures say about denial of the world are entirely true and NOT impossible.

I by no means am promoting any agenda here regardless of what some might think and I really don't care what they think anyway. I am just going by my experiences in Churches all my life. I have been in the Church for over 50 years and I am 56 and Brother I have seen all kinds of folks in my travels, some that you would think they are God Jr. and are so Godly and sinless and they have more skeletons in their closets that you could ever imagine, trust me I could tell you some stories you would never believe remember I am a Prayer partner at Church but I won't. and others that come to Church and humble themselves and openly talk to there Brothers and Sisters about their own sin so they will have someone to be accountable to.
I come here with a very good common sense knowledge of just people in general, because I have been around ever kind a Christian and so called Christian you could possible ever imagine and heard stories that would blow your mind of folks and what they have done in their life, You have Christians that want to play God and you have Christians that want to seek God I have seen them all, I am not stereotyping anyone they all have their own stories, but the ones that are seeking God are the best ones in my opinion because when you still are seeking God and his will for your life I know for a fact you don't have a lot of time to be calling anyone down, I guess when you bored and know it all you have more time, but I have never in my 50 years had any spare time to give up on seeking Gods will for my personal life.

Please could you quote something either Wesley said, to support this claim?

I apologize on this, I should have used better wording.

John Wesley's view of original sin is very much orthodox, but he then deviates into prevenient grace by which a man may see Christ and His work, but refuse salvation. This is not Scriptural, as God's grace accomplishes what He sets it out to do.

In the other thread you brought up a point that fits here. God's grace is not all the same. For instance He has common grace for all mankind. But He has a special redeeming grace for those whom He foreknew, and predestines.

Here is Article 8 from Wesely's 25 Articles of faith-
[i]"The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith and calling upon God; wherefore, we have no power to do good works, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us(or going before and enabling us), that we may have a good will, and working with us when we have that good will."[/i]

It is very much similar to the Roman Catholic view of grace needing to be cooperated with in order to achieve what it desires.

I would dare say that John Wesley is much more "Calvinistic" than many, however he did end up thrusting people back upon themselves for their salvation. I believe that his misunderstanding of the full effects of original sin led him to think that man could be sinless in this life.

There are certain areas, and phrases that Wesley changed the meaning of, or had a differing meaning that have caused confusion as well.

I do not remember where it is, but I remember him saying that if men were justified by faith alone, that would not produce works and would lead to lazy Christianity. Of course this discounts the work of the Holy Spirit who has given the new birth and will sustain the life He has given them.

This in response to your saying that Wesley did not whip people and tell them to work to earn their keep-
[i][b]Q. 11. Are works necessary to the continuance of faith? A. Without doubt; for a man may forfeit the free gift of God, either by sins of omission or commission.[/b]

Q. 12. Can faith be lost but for want of works? A. It cannot but through disobedience. (8:275-277)
The Complete Works Of John Wesley[/i]

Wesley reinvented doctrine to make up for his misunderstanding of man's captive will(i.e. prevenient grace), and never hesitated to call Calvinism, "a device of Satan".

[i]Q. 74. What is the direct antidote to Methodism, the doctrine of heart-holiness? A. Calvinism: [b]All the devices of Satan[/b], for these fifty years, have done far less toward stopping this work of God, than that single doctrine. It strikes at the root of salvation from sin, previous to glory, putting the matter on quite another issue. ... Be diligent to prevent them, and to guard these tender minds against the predestinarian poison. (8:336)[/i]

It is difficult to reconcile his beliefs with those of the Reformers, or the Apostles themselves, as in the end, man must follow a system of ethics to be saved, and God does not know all that will happen, and if He does, it is only because He peeked into the future and saw it.