Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?

Question:

If these statements are true:

Holy Spirit alone by a Sovereign act of God convicts you of your sin.

Holy Spirit alone reveals to you Jesus as the Lord and how you must surrender your life to Him as a sacrifice because He alone is the Sovereign King of all for eternity.

Does believing or having faith that God did this work in you by the Holy Spirit constitute a work of man? In other words, is the act of believing or having faith, a work?

If it is a work...then is it saving faith?

If it isn't a work then what is the definition of true "belief" or true "faith"?

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same WORKS that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 10:37 If I do not the WORKS of my Father, [b]believe me not[/b]. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, BELIEVE THE WORKS: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the WORKS. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very WORKS' SAKE.

To answer your question directly, yes, even believing is a Work of God produced in us by God -not of man.

1 Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your [b]WORK OF FAITH[/b], and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thess 2:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the [b]WORK OF FAITH[/b] with power:

Again I will state that even faith, is a work of God produced in us by God, according to the work or operation of God done upon us.

We are of course saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH-but also knowing that faith without works is deed, or I could say it this way faith without fruit is dead.

James 2 is great in understanding this: James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, AND NOT by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified BY WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I pray this helps, this is just my understanding of it. :0)

So if what you say is true (and I believe it is) can man then be compelled by the Spirit to believe and have faith and yet deny the Spirit to bear fruit in his life?

Well I believe my answer to that would be:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Heb 10: 26 For if WE (the Church) SIN WILLFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The reason why I quote this two verses is because both of these verses describe genuine believers who at some point being to deny the Spirit and the Lordship of Jesus Christ-thus they become Christians who continually walk against the Spirit or in denying of the Spirit. in which it brings Christ words to life:

Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (understanding the "speaketh" is not always verbal, but even in actions)

Or another way I would answer that is: Christ told all those who came to him to ABIDE (remain) in him, and he in them.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye [b]CONTINUE[/b] in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (It is not really per se if you started the race, it is if you finish the race and how you do so)

Jesus once said " he choose" the 12 and one of them "was" a devil-referring to Judas-now Jesus, even being the Spirit compelled/choose Judas to believe for a season, but then to deny Jesus-which I might add again He is the Spirit-thus Judas did not "CONTINUE,ENDURE, or ABIDE" in or Christ to remain fruitful and faithful UNTIL THE END. I say that to say, I don't believe Judas will be the only person like this....just think of the " great FALLING away"

So then if God by the Spirit draws man to himself and convinces man by the Spirit that he must surrender to God...man can reject this compelling by the Spirit of God?

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

The same way that Jesus said " not my will, but thine, be done" is the same way that a person could say the opposite of this:

In other words, I do believe one could not choose to surrender or yield his will to the Father-in Luke 22:42 you see Jesus making a conscience decision to yield to the Father's will, even though Jesus had the Spirit without measure and though it was even the Father the dwelleth in him that did the works-he still had to subject his will to the Father-I do believe there are people who do NOT subject their will to the will of the Father.

Though Jesus is in the Father, and the Father in Jesus, He still had to submit his will-for one not to submit to the Spirit would be to reject the Spirit (rebel against)

hi,faith is hearing that voice inside your knower, believing it unto obedience.by faith noah built... by faith abram left... all examples in the scrpture of faith demonstrate this truth.. faith without corresponding action is not faith at all.. we hear the good news and the voice tells us that God loves me and it is my time to react to His calling in obedience..jimp

Hi DesiJr, in case you haven't, have a look at John 6:29.

DesiJr wrote:
Question:

If these statements are true:

Holy Spirit alone by a Sovereign act of God convicts you of your sin.

Holy Spirit [b]alone[/b] reveals to you Jesus as the Lord and how you must surrender your life to Him as a sacrifice because He alone is the Sovereign King of all for eternity.

Does believing or having faith that God did this work in you by the Holy Spirit constitute a work of man?

In other words, is the act of believing or having faith, a work?

Hi again DesiJr,

"If it is a work...then is it saving faith?"

Maybe another way to look at the question is to ask: whose work is it?

I mentioned before John 6:29. Maybe take a look at Luke 8:10, 10:22, and John 6:45.

Take care for now,

Chris

If it is a work...then is it saving faith?"

Let's admit, faith can be a work of the flesh - nothing more than a human construct. That cannot save us.

I remember reading a portion by Duncan Campbell in which he distinguished between natural faith and supernatural faith. He points out that natural faith cannot save us. Of course, that begs the question, how can we know the difference?

Maybe this is one question that we should let God himself answer. Because if we try, we just end up creating a "sure"-fix formula that sends us spinning again. And then we put our faith in our formula.

“The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.” Rom. 8:16

The challenge: Can we trust God to illuminate by his Spirit, or do we trust in our own human attempts to do so. Now that would also be a work apart from faith.

“..and everything that does not come from faith is sin.” Rom. 14:23

Diane

hi, the difference between faith and presumption is that word from God. if you have a word from God in your heart{knower)and you believe to obedience this only is bible faith.jim p faith without works is dead (not faith at all)

Faith without works is dead?

Then this must also apply; works without faith are dead self works. Which comes first the Chicken or the egg?

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Works or Faith, which is it that does the work of Jesus Christ that is born again in us?
It must be His Faith that gives us His Faith to do the works of Him. Who are we without Christ?
What can we do without Christ? With Christ in us what can we do?

The Answer to all these is: without Him doing the works in us our works are worthless, without Him giving His Faith to our Faith our faith is dead. With Christ, faith is the beginning of good works in Christ Jesus. Let us have this mind which was in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 2:1-13 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

It is God through Jesus Christ in us that is working out His good pleasure. This must be our way of thinking and keep these things in our mind and the things of Christ will become increasingly line upon line and precept upon precept the works we are to be willing to have done through us by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, by whom we have new life and live in and for and through Him.

In Christ: Phillip

hi, i will tear this verse out of my bible 'faith without works is dead' i couldn't find the chicken verse. iam with you that works do not save anyone. obedience is better than sacrifice. Jesus calls you.. you come. thats all... jimp

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [i]it is[/i] the gift of God:"

- Ephesians chapter 2 verse 8

For we are his workmanship...

Christinyou wrote:
Faith without works is dead?

Then this must also apply; works without faith are dead self works. Which comes first the Chicken or the egg?

Dead works would be legalism, works of the law which is opposed to works of faith.

I would say that the Chicken came first, God made animals, not eggs.
He made Adam & Eve fully grown, therefore, HE made the Chicken fully grown, not the egg.

Works or Faith, which is it that does the work of Jesus Christ that is born again in us?

Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us.

The Answer to all these is: without Him doing the works in us our works are worthless,

without Him giving His Faith to our Faith our faith is dead.

faith is the beginning of good works in Christ Jesus.

It is God through Jesus Christ in us that is working out His good pleasure.

...the things of Christ will become increasingly line upon line and precept upon precept...

[b]Isa 28:10-13[/b] [color=990000]For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
[b]:11[/b] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[b]:12[/b] To whom he said, This is the rest with which you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
[b]:13[/b] But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; [u][b]that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken[/b][/u].[/color]

Hi Logic,

I wanted to offer some passages in regards to some of the questions you have here. I do not know if Phillip had these things in mind or not. I hope they will be helpfull though.

You asked,

"Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us."

One passage that comes to mind is Galatians 4:19.

But I don't know exactly what Phillip means for sure.

Also,

"Show me where Jesus is doing our works of faith.
He enables us to bear fruit, but HE does not bear the fruit for us."

What I think of is Galatians chapter 5 which describes the fruit of the Spirit. That it is His fruit.

Also,

"Where does Christ "give us HIS faith"?"

Not sure about this either, but I think the scripture is indicating that faith in Christ is the work of God:

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

- John chapter 6 verse 29(KJV)

And also,

"No, it is to for us to will & to do of His good pleasure. In other words, it is God working on our will that we may be desiring to work obediantly out of love for HIM for the sake of His delight."

What came to mind was this from Hebrews 13:21 where it says...

"...working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ"

Take care for now,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic,

"Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us."

One passage that comes to mind is Galatians 4:19.

"Show me where Jesus is doing our works of faith.
He enables us to bear fruit, but HE does not bear the fruit for us."

What I think of is Galatians chapter 5 which describes the fruit of the Spirit. That it is His fruit.

[b]Joh 15:4[/b] [color=990000]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.[/color]
The branch(us) bears the fruit, the vine(Jesus) enables the branch.

"Where does Christ "give us HIS faith"?"

Not sure about this either, but I think the scripture is indicating that faith in Christ is the work of God:
"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

"No, it is to for us to will & to do of His good pleasure. In other words, it is God working on our will that we may be desiring to work obediantly out of love for HIM for the sake of His delight."

What came to mind was this from Hebrews 13:21 where it says...
"...working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ"

Hi again Logic, and thank you for the response.

Logic, regarding Galatians 4:19 you said

"That would be a Christ like character, not christ Himself being born in us."

But where does it say that? Is Christ's character seperate from Christ Himself? What do you mean?

Prior to this in verse 6 it says

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

In John 14:18 the Lord says

[b][color=660033]I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. [/color][/b]

Also, regarding fruit you said

"The branch(us) bears the fruit, the vine(Jesus) enables the branch."

In Matthew 26:29, Mark 14:25, and Luke 22:18, the Lord Jesus, speaking about wine I think, reffers to it as [b]the fruit of the vine[/b].

Isn't it that the branches [b]hold[/b] the fruit that [u]the vine[/u] is bearing? Everything for life comes from the vine, not the branches, right? And again, the fruit in Galatians 5 is not called the fruit of the believer.

I thought also of this where it says

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."

- 2 Corinthains chapter 4 verse 7(KJV)

Also, regarding John 6:29 you said

"The work that we do of GOD(not from GOD) is to believe on Him.
We do GOD"s work by believing."

But where does it say that? This is the same context in which He says all that are given to Him will come to Him(v37), that no one can come to Him except God draws them(v44), and also that everyone that is taught by God and that have heard and learned will come to Him(v45). Whose working here, isn't it God at work?

Regarding Hebrews 13:20 I'm not clear what you were saying, maybe you could rephrase it?

I noticed you emphasised [b]to do[/b]. In John 14:10 the Lord Jesus said it was His Father that did the works.

Thanks again and take care for now,

Chris

I was just thinking how these discussions seem more like talking about how Lazarus was able to put one foot in front of the other instead of being astounded that He was raised from the dead.

I was just thinking how these discussions seem more like talking about how Lazarus was able to put one foot in front of the other instead of being astounded that He was raised from the dead.

Well said. One foot in front of the other! It puts a whole new spin on the word [i]ped[/i]antics.

""""Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us?""""

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Who is the Water of Life which this is speaking of? Who's Spirit must we have or we are none of Gods sons'.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Water of Life springing up to everlasting life is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

The Spirit of Christ is ours at the birth of Christ in us.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Where is the water? Where is the Spirit of Christ? Born Again of Water and Spirit.

The incorruptable Seed of God the Father is Christ Jesus, this is the Sperma of God. That is why Jesus told us to pray this way, "Our Father". The Seed in this scripture is "Parentage Seed". This Seed is born again in you. This Seed is the Word. The Word is Christ.

"The Word became flesh", and dwelt among us.

The "Logos" was Supreme Divinity"

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Here is the Holy Spirit in you and By the Spirit of Christ that dwelleth in you these bodies have been quickened to contain The God Head, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We not only have the new birth by the Spirit of Christ that dwell in us, but we have been given the Holy Spirit also and the Father's abode is also with us. If you don't have the Spirit of Christ birthed in you you are none of His.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Dorcas.

I don't know.

But then again let's not wait around for Lazarus to die again so we can do an autopsy to find out what kept him alive.

It's miraculous.

Better yet, when people around us start asking us about the hope we have in us, and they see a man come back from the dead, maybe we'll be qualified to take it all apart with our words.

Its high time our experience start matching the verbosity of our theology.

Dorcas, I appreciate what you shared.

I was concerned after I posted these comments tonight that I might have gotten out of line in what I said. If I was please forgive me. And that is to all.

Thank you,

Chris

What is the greatest miracle of all?

Colossians 1:18-19 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Colossians 1:20-22 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

The miracle of birth is something we don't even to this day, completely understand. We do see the evidence of it everyday. How can we miss the miracle of rebirth, by The Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in us.

How can we not see this as the greatest miracle of all which God has now revealed to His sons'.

Taking this body of sin of whom we all are the chiefest of sinner, that is all that is against God and unable to save ourselves, in this body of death and corruption and God making us perfect before God in Christ Jesus. This is the greatest Miracle of All, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"STRIVING ACCORDING TO HIS WORKING"

How does He Work? By the Son, through the death of the Cross, by the Blood of Christ, through the resurrection of new life, by the rebirth of Christ in us.

IN CHRIST, my LIFE: Phillip

hi,Christinyou said Jesus must be born again in us...i thought to myself we must be born in Him ... i prayed and like a lot of things in the bible; it is not either or, but both and... ty for teaching an old dog.jimp

Thank you jimp,

Amen, He is in us and we in Him, praise God.

1Cr 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;

1Cr 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Cr 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

How can we know the Spirit of Christ unless He is in us as our Spirit.

1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Us in Him:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

My Prayer:

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Finally:

Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

In Him, Amen

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

In Christ: That is me in Him: Phillip

ChrisJD wrote:
Logic, regarding Galatians 4:19 you said

"That would be a Christ like character, not christ Himself being born in us."

But where does it say that?

Is Christ's character seperate from Christ Himself? What do you mean?

Prior to this in verse 6 it says

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

In John 14:18 the Lord says

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

"The branch(us) bears the fruit, the vine(Jesus) enables the branch."

In Matthew 26:29, Mark 14:25, and Luke 22:18, the Lord Jesus, speaking about wine I think, reffers to it as the fruit of the vine.

Isn't it that the branches hold the fruit that the vine is bearing? Everything for life comes from the vine, not the branches, right? And again, the fruit in Galatians 5 is not called the fruit of the believer.

[b]Rom 6:13[/b] [color=990000]Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.[/color], Rom 6:16, Rom 6:19.
HE also sais, "[b]abide[/b] in me"
That means to continue, dwell, endure, stay present, remain, stand, tarry. It is our initiative.

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."

[b]2Corinth 4:7b[/b] [color=990000]that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.[/color]
— that the power of the ministry (the Holy Spirit), in respect to its surpassing “excellency,” exhibited in winning souls(1Corinth 2:4) and in sustaining us ministers of the Gosple, might be ascribed solely to God, we being weak as earthen vessels.

"The work that we do of GOD(not from GOD) is to believe on Him.

But where does it say that?

This is the same context in which He says all that are given to Him will come to Him(v37), that no one can come to Him except God draws them(v44),

and also that everyone that is taught by God and that have heard and learned will come to Him(v45). Whose working here, isn't it God at work?

Who is it that will hear?
[b]John 5:25[/b] [color=990000]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when [b]the [u]dead shall hear[/u] the voice of the Son of God[/b]: and they that hear shall live.[/color]
It is not the ones who are so called "regenerated".

Regarding Hebrews 13:20 I'm not clear what you were saying, maybe you could rephrase it?

Faith without works is dead?

Then this must also apply; works without faith are dead self works. Which comes first the Chicken or the egg?

I noticed you emphasised to do. In John 14:10 the Lord Jesus said it was His Father that did the works.

dorcas wrote:

Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us.

Romans 6
3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were [u]baptized [b]to Christ Jesus, to his death[/b] were baptized?[/u]
4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even [u]as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life[/u] might walk.

1 Corinthians 15
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became, 21 for since through man [i]is[/i] the death, also through man [i]is[/i] a rising again of the dead,
22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

Galatians 2
20 with Christ I have been crucified, [b]and live [u]no more[/u] do I[/b], and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God,

That part of Romans 6:4 referring to Jesus' resurrection, is translated in my interlinear as 'from among the dead', but Tyndale has 'from death'. There is also the assumption that being raised to newness of life [u]automatically[/u] leads to [u]walking[/u] in the Spirit.

If we do not say that Jesus was somehow 'born again' through His resurrection, on what basis can we claim to be 'born again' through participating in His by faith? Seriously?

[b]1Peter 1:23[/b] [color=990000]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.[/color]
Jesus was never born from corruptible seed.

[b]John 3:3[/b] [color=990000]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born from above(again), he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/color]
Jesus was never born from below.
Or
Jesus never needed to be born from above since He is the "above which we need to be born from.

I can not belive that you are asking this.

Christinyou wrote:

Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us?

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Blah, blah, blah...ect...

I will repeat:
[b]Titus 3:5[/b] [color=990000]He [b]saved[/b] us through the [b]washing of regeneration[/b] and [b]renewal of the Holy[/b] Spirit,[/color]
Jesus was never saved.
Jesus was never washed.
Jesus was never renewed.

[b]1Peter 1:23[/b] [color=990000]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.[/color]
Jesus was never born from corruptible seed.

[b]John 3:3[/b] [color=990000]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born from above(again), he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/color]
Jesus was never born from below.
Or
Jesus never needed to be born from above since He is the "above which we need to be born from.

As you say that Jesus was "born again" you stray from the truth.

dorcas wrote:

For many years I resisted the idea that Jesus should be [i]in[/i] me.

The only way that the life of God can be 'by us' is if it is 'in us' first. This is the growth of the incorruptible Seed. That's one picture which brings its own parallels, such as Christ being born in us.

Not Born, implanted, yes. indwelt, yes. to have come in to us, yes. to posses us, yes. NOT BORN AGAIN IN US!!!

To be honest, if you reject a verse like Gal 4:19, you can't expect to find agreement even in spirit, with those whose terminology may be slightly idiosyncratic, but nevertheless carries the intent of scripture.

Did you even read the responce that I gave to Gal 4:19?
You can not refute it.
Christ is in them while HE needs to be formed in them.
This can not be that HE is born again in us.

Hi again Logic, I hope you are doing well. It is good to remember that the people we are typing to are people and not ideas or arguments.

About this in regards to Galatians 4:19 again,

You said "It is implyed."

I disagree. Verses 11 and 20 seem to say he was rather concerned about the standing of their faith, not whether character was being formed in them? Where is that, the matter of character, even being discussed? Verse 17 talks about those who were zealously affecting them and verse puts it out the issue plainly:

"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?"

What does any of that have to do with character?

Logic, this was given as a refrence to point to the language of birth being used in regards to Christ.

Also, about fruit,

"John 14:16 is specificly speeking of our works of/from faith that HE calls fruit.
Not wine."

Is that the point Logic? I do not mean this in a condescending way, but this is really silly. Do you want to argue over where fruit comes from? a branch or a vine?

About John 6:29.

He said the work, of God, was to believe on Him.

He said God gives them(v 37), draws them(v44), and teaches them(v45).

"...but it is up tho man to descide to listen."

Those are your words.

Take care for now,

Chris

It means, until Christ reigns wholly in your heart, soul & attitude; until you wholly and entirely embrace his doctrines; and conform your whole life to, and until you become wholly overwhelmed with his spirit.
Not until He is born in you.
They are already saved, HE is already in them.

You never explain why HE should be "born in them" if HE is already in them?

Hi Logic,

"You never explain why HE should be "born in them" if HE is already in them?"

Right, I think I know what you are saying here. What I was looking at is that the language is used at all. If it was to happen [b]again[/b], that means it had to have happened [b]at least once[/b] to begin with.

You asked initially,

"Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us."

So this was in response to that.

You may be right about this and it may not even be refering to Christ being born in believers. I do not know.

Robertson's Word Pictures says in regards to the phrase [b]untill Christ be formed in you[/b]...

"This figure is the embryo developing into the child."

Elsewhere the scripture refers to being born of incorruptible seed. That would seem to be a similar picture as what springs from the seed continues to grow untill it is fully developed.

Hope this helps,

Chris

Elsewhere the scripture refers to being born of incorruptible seed. That would seem to be a similar picture as what springs from the seed continues to grow untill it is fully developed.

Hi again Logic,

Logic, do you think much about what others write to you?

I have two dogs. I've noticed that one of them can be very protective of her food and acts like it is something to be defended. She certainly doesn't act like she wants to share it with the other dog. Pretty much the only sound she makes while eating is to growl if you bother her.

We shouldn't be like that should we? Unless we only view our food as something to defend?

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:

We shouldn't be like that should we? Unless we only view our food as something to defend

This could go to another topic if one wants to discuss it more so we may get back to the main toppic of this thread.

hi, once again we have 2 people standing on either side of a door argueing over if it an exit or an entrance. jimp

Believing Jesus' Words [b]is[/b] a work, but not a work of the law.
One must choose to belive, and acting upon HIS words proove that one does believ.
The acting upon HIS words are the works of faith.

What are Jesus' Words?
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Love is a verb, work is a verb, Believing Jesus' Words [b]is[/b] a work.

Hi again all,

Logic, you said

"One must choose to belive,"

The Lord Jesus said to those who had asked Him if He was the Christ

"...ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." - John 10:26(KJV)

Next He said His sheep do hear His voice, and that His Father gave them to Him.

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:

"One must choose to belive,"

The Lord Jesus said to those who had asked Him if He was the Christ

"...ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." - John 10:26(KJV)

If they would hear HIS voice, they would be HIS sheep.
Therefore, if they would hear HIS voice, they would belive.
If it was not for pride, prejudice, and for their false assumetions of who the Messiah should be, and from a determination not to believe, they would be HIS sheep.

Next He said His sheep do hear His voice, and that His Father gave them to Him.

Hi Logic, thank you for writing back.

Logic, you said,

"If they would hear HIS voice, they would be HIS sheep."

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660033] My sheep hear my voice...[/color][/b]

- John 10:27(KJV)

Logic you said,

"If it was not for pride, prejudice, and for their false assumetions of who the Messiah should be, and from a determination not to believe, they would be HIS sheep."

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660033]...ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,... [/color][/b]

- John 10:26(KJV)

The word translated because, according to Strong's is

G1063
γάρ
gar
gar
A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): - and, as, because (that), but, even, for indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

Again, Logic, you said

"...if they would hear HIS voice, they would belive."

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660033]He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.[/color][/b]

- John 8:47(KJV)

John also wrote,

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [i]even[/i] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

- John 1:11-13(KJV)

Logic, you said,

"By the hearing from the Father and learning of the truth, is the way that the Father gives them to Him."

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660033] But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me... [/color][/b]

- John 6:36-37(KJV)

The Lord Jesus also said of His disciples

[b][color=660033] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. [/color][/b]

He also said

[b][color=660033]"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."[/color][/b]

- John 5:25(KJV)

and...

[b][color=660033]""For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [i]them[/i]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."[/color][/b]

- John 5:21(KJV)

Thanks again,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic, thank you for writing back.
Logic, you said,

"If they would hear HIS voice, they would be HIS sheep."

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660033] My sheep hear my voice...[/color][/b]- John 10:27(KJV)
Logic you said,

"If it was not for pride, prejudice, and for their false assumetions of who the Messiah should be, and from a determination not to believe, they would be HIS sheep."

The Lord Jesus said,
[b][color=660033]...ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,... [/color][/b]- John 10:26(KJV)
The word translated because, according to Strong's is
G1063
γάρ
gar
gar
A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): - and, as, because (that), but, even, for indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.
Again, Logic, you said

"...if they would hear HIS voice, they would belive."

The Lord Jesus said,
[b][color=660033]He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.[/color][/b]- John 8:47(KJV)
John also wrote,

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [i]even[/i] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."- John 1:11-13(KJV)
Logic, you said,

"By the hearing from the Father and learning of the truth, is the way that the Father gives them to Him."

The Lord Jesus said,
[b][color=660033] But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me... [/color][/b]- John 6:36-37(KJV)
The Lord Jesus also said of His disciples

[b][color=660033] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. [/color][/b]

He also said
[b][color=660033]"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."[/color][/b]- John 5:25(KJV)
and...
[b][color=660033]""For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [i]them[/i]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."[/color][/b]- John 5:21(KJV)

Thanks again,
Chris

Thanx for reiterating.

Hi Logic,

"Jesus answered and said unto them,

[b][color=660033]This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. [/color][/b]"

- John 6:29(KJV)

[b][color=660033]Why do ye not understand my speech? [i]even[/i] because ye cannot hear my word. [/color][/b]

- John 8:43(KJV)

In answer to your question, no.

Take care for now,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic,

"Jesus answered and said unto them,

[b][color=660033]This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. [/color][/b]"- John 6:29(KJV)

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. -John 8:43(KJV)

In answer to your question, no.

Take care for now,

Are you implying that it is God who rejects man instead of man rejecting GOD?

Hi Logic,

I guess we read or understand these passages differently.

Take care,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic,

I guess we read or understand these passages differently.
Take care,
Chris

dorcas wrote:

Hi ChrisJD and Logic,

I wonder if you both can see the [u]same[/u] interpretation of who is doing 'the work', if I re-arrange the clauses of the sentence construction?
[i]that ye believe on him whom he hath sent, is the work of God[/i]
If we put this into the past tense, it might be even clearer.
[i]that ye believe on him whom he hath sent, was the work of God[/i]

Or, we could try:

[i]that ye believed on him whom he has sent, is the work of God[/i]

Okay.... try this...

[i]The work of God, is that ye believe on him whom he has sent[/i]

Lastly, following in the thoughts conveyed around English grammar in the thread 'Presenting the Apostrophe', 'the work of God' can be written as [i]God's work[/i].

Now, the original would read:

This is (or, It is) God's work, that ye believe (or [i]to believe[/i]) on Him whom He hath sent.

In other words, if there is any 'work of believing', [u]God does it all for us[/u].

This would make sence for the responce to be:
"that ye believe on him whom he hath sent, is the work of God"

Logic, let me put this to you... When you give your wife some information she needs, so that she can carry out a task you wish her to do, does she have to work at believing you are telling her the truth, and that she will find things just as you said they would be?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that if believing (or faith) is 'the work', then we should all be exhausted by every relationship into which we enter, which requires a response from us, or, to which we find ourselves desiring to respond.

Lets just face it, in contect of John 6:28, the only way to read John 6:29 is "that ye believe on him whom he hath sent, is the work of God"

How did the Lord Jesus respond to what Nicodemus said about Him?

ChrisJD wrote:
How did the Lord Jesus respond to what Nicodemus said about Him?

Again, Are you implying that it is God who rejects man instead of man rejecting GOD?

dorcas wrote:

I see why you want to make it a work of man, to believe Jesus.

Other work we must do:
[b]Rom 2:7,10[/b] [color=990000]To them who by who by endurance in [b]good works[/b] are seeking glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[b]:10[/b] yet glory and honor and peace to every [b]worker[/b] of good, both to the Jew first, and to the Greek.[/color]

There is more, but, gotta run.

Hi Dorcas, how are you?

About the context,

Before this it says

Jesus answered them and said,

[b][color=660033]Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.[/color][/b]

Could that be a motive for their question that follows?

And how would God answer the spirit of such a question?

Hi Logic,

In regards to Nicodemus I was thinking of John 3:2.

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic,
How did the Lord Jesus respond to what Nicodemus said about Him?
In regards to Nicodemus I was thinking of John 3:2.

Then Jesus answered that by saying, "unless someone is born from above he is not able to [b]understand[/b] the kingdom of God(3:3).

What Jesus was speaking "kingdomeez" when HE said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."(19)
They did not understand it(20).
The disciples understood it only when He was raised from the dead, His disciples recalled that He said this to them(V:22).

What is your point of asking about this?

for the 3rd time, would you please eanswer my question:
Again, Are you implying that it is God who rejects man instead of man rejecting GOD?

Hi Logic.

I think there is more to what Nicodemus said than what you mentioned. I see three things in particular.

Also, why do you keep asking me this question?

Thanks,

Chris

Dorcas, thank you for the reply, I think it was helpfull.

"they seemed to think their challenge was to be able to do what Jesus could do, rather like Simon the sorceror who offered money for the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:18)."

I think so too.

So, how does the Lord respond, by giving them the answer to [b]their[/b] question? I don't think so.

I think He changed the emphasis, like you suggested.

They asked Him what they needed to do, to work the work[b]s[/b] of God.

I think He told them what God's work(not works) was instead.

Does that make sense?

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic.

I think there is more to what Nicodemus said than what you mentioned. I see three things in particular.

Also, why do you keep asking me this question?

Hi Logic,

The three things were: that He was a teacher come from God, that He was doing miracles, and that God was with Him.

I know you qouted the verse but I was asking about the Lord's response to Nicodemus having said these things.

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic,

The three things were: that He was a teacher come from God, that He was doing miracles, and that God was with Him.

I know you qouted the verse but I was asking about the Lord's response to Nicodemus having said these things.

Why won't you answer the question?
It is a simple quesion.

Hi Logic,

I was looking to compare the response there with how the Lord responded in John chapter 6.

As to the question you keep asking me, haven't I only qouted to you the scriptures?

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic,

I was looking to compare the response there with how the Lord responded in John chapter 6.

As to the question you keep asking me, haven't I only qouted to you the scriptures?

Will you answer or not?

Do you think that it is God who rejects man instead of man rejecting GOD?

Logic,

I think the scriptures are more profitable for us.

Chris

Edited to correct spelling

hi,in choosing the jews,God rejected the rest of humaniy. in choosing noah God rejects the rest of the world.He even tells his army to kill everything and everyone in a nation.don't use logic use the bible.jimp

Dorcas, good evening to you too :-)

"...sorry I'm drifting away from the matter of whether it's any effort to believe?"

That's alright, and I appreciate the emphasis you added here in question, of it being [i]any effort[/i].

If we agree that the Lord was telling them what the work of God was, instead of telling them how to work the works of God, we might ask:

Could they have worked the works of God in and of themselves anyway? Could they have fed all of those mulitudes for instance, in their own power or [b]by their own effort[/b]?

I think of what the Lord Jesus said in John 5:17,19-20.

Thanks :-)

hi, is resting in the finished work of Christ a work? jimp

jimp wrote:
hi, is [b]resting[/b] in the finished work of Christ a work? jimp