Judging unjustly

[b][color=660033]Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. [/color][/b]

- John chapter 8 verses 15-16(KJV)

[b][color=660033]Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.[/color][/b]

- John chapter 7 verse 24(KJV)

[u][b]1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Immorality Must Be Judged[/b]

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Judge only believers and those who claim to be believers.

[b][color=660000]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. [/color][/b]

- John 5:30(KJV)

Hi Jeannette,

I appreciate what you shared.

Something which stood out to me in the passage from John 5:30 is how the Lord says

[i]...my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will[/i]

As I was thinking about that the other day I happened across this passage from Psalm 25, where it says

"The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way."

- Psalm 25:9(KJV)

Grace to you and peace,

Chris

"And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the [i]holy[/i] place, for a memorial before the LORD continually. And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually."

- Exodus 28:29-30(KJV)

[i]...and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.[/i]

"And Moses spoke unto the LORD, saying, Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd. And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom [i]is[/i] the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him; And set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight. And thou shalt put [i]some[/i] of thine honor upon him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient. And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask [i]counsel[/i] for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, [i]both[/i] he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation."

- Numbers 27:15-21(KJV)

[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.[/color][/b]

- John 10:1-3(KJV)

"Now of the things which we have spoken [i]this is[/i] the sum: We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."

- Hebrews 8:1-2(KJV)

[i]Hi everyone. I had posted something a while back and thought that it might be appropriate here also. I share it with you all as one who has failed many times, and desperately needs help from God to walk in this world.[/i]

vig·i·lan·te (v¹j”…-l²n“t¶) n. 1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

- from the American Heritage Dictionary

A word of Introduction

Not too long ago I was at the public library when some children next to me became very disruptive. I said something to one of them and they quieted down some. I remember feeling conflicted about the whole thing. This was not the first time over several months that I had said something to children who were being obnoxious around me. Later on that day, when I was home and outside cutting the grass and meditating upon these and other things I had the thought, a question really: is there such a thing as a religious vigilante? After reading something tonight in another thread, I thought that now might be an appropriate time to share with you all some things I noticed in the Word of God respecting this question.

Is there such a thing as a [i] Religious Vigilante[/i]?

My thoughts or observations, come from the story of Jacob and his sons, when his daughter Dinah was taken and violated by Shechem, the son of Hamor, the Hivite. This story is found in the 34th chapter of the book of Genesis.

Verse 6

And Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to commune with him.

We read here, that after Shechem had done this thing, he desired to take Dinah unto himself because he loved her. And so he asked his father to get her for him, to be his wife. And Hamor is coming now to meet with Jacob - to [b]commune[/b] with him. And I think that is something to take note of in this story, and as we consider this question of : is there such a thing as a religious vigilante.

Going on here we see that Jacob's sons, having heard of this thing that was done to their sister, they were, the scripture says [i]very wroth[/i]. And so we imagine they might be. You can easily imagine how angry these brothers might have been, to hear that someone had violated their sister. Because this Shechem, an Hivite, had [i]wrought folly in Israel[/i], something which [i]ought not to be done. [/i] So we can see that these men, though they might not have been all that pious themselves, remember what Judah did with Tamar his daughter-in-law, and what all of them did to their younger brother Joseph; no they probably were not so pure, not really all that concerned about the religious virtue of being called by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and their father Jacob, but you can easily imagine how they would have been angry over such a thing.

And here we have Hamor coming out to commune with Jacob, two fathers meeting to discuss this terrible thing that has happened, and perhaps come to some sort of resolution of it, or at least try to make things right about it, and instead of meeting together, just the two of them, it would appear that Hamor was, perhaps, I can not be certain, cut off from meeting with Jacob directly, for in verse 6 it says he came to commune with him, that is Jacob, but in verse 8 we read [i]And Hamor communed with them[/i], as though he was intercepted if you will, by Jacob's sons.

You know, if you are really angry about something, and you want to see justice done, it can cloud your judgment. And even though you know you may not be the best one to deal with the situation, or even that you have the right authority to deal with it, because you are so angry about it, and all you want is to see justice served, you might be overpowered by that and want to take matters into your own hands.

And I think I can see something of that here. Now, in verse 11, we do read that Shechem, the one who had violated Dinah, that he does speak to Jacob in this meeting, and the details of all this are somewhat vague. We don't know for instance, if Jacob's son's had went out and all of a group met Hamor before he could talk directly with Jacob, or perhaps, in the course of the meeting, they were so forceful in asserting themselves in the conversation that Jacob could hardly get a word in, we do not know, but what is clear about this, whatever Jacob may have said or not, is that the [b]will[/b] of these men his sons prevailed. I think that is something also to take note of here, that is, their [b]will[/b] in all this. And I'll say why later.

Now what happens next is not a high spot in the history of the children of Israel. I remember reading this story for the first time and just being struck by the cruelty of it all. It is one of those stories which reinforces that saying you hear used to support the Bible's veracity from time to time, that is, the proposition that the Bible portrays its heroes in a very honest way, warts and all, as they saying goes. And I believe that is true and that it is certainly true here. These men, these [i]Israelites[/i], these chosen men, they go and do something that you would expect the heathen people to do - certainly not men that knew and called upon God, or were called by His name anyway.

But now there's another thing to take note of in this: that those who are only superficially a part of something, but that don't really share the values of what it is they are a part of, they might be willing to cut corners, to break the rules, to do whatever it takes to get their goals accomplished, even if the means do not square with the values they are supposed to uphold. And even in sincere men, anger or lust to see anger fulfilled may cause them to do the same thing.

And so what happens here is that, these son's of Jacob trick Hamor and Shechem into thinking that they are going to join their families together and make one big happy family, so to speak. Oh what an evil it is to deceive, but even worse to deceive under the guise of love! Here they have these men thinking that they are going to live at peace with each other, that all this that happened to Dinah is going to be put behind them and they are going to all live together as one!

And what is worse about all this...are you ready... what is worse about this is that they use the sign and seal of their supposed religious devotion, the covenant of circumcision, to do it. They convince these heathen men to be circumcised, to take upon them that outward sign of their devotion to the God of Abraham, in order that they might execute their revenge upon them. Oh the cruelty of it!

You know, here again, I think we should pause and consider this. Here are men who, in their anger, are willing to use the sacred sign of their devotion and consecration to God, to take revenge. Now that says something doesn't it. It says something about those who are willing to use the things of God, the holy things of God, as a means to their own ends, as a means, in this case, to get evil and cruel revenge. Or even how sincere men may do the same thing, in anger.

And so what happens as a result of all this is a tragedy. After the men of their city were all circumcised, and were there recovering from it, that is, they were probably incapacitated mostly, that is not able to move around much, in such a state as that, we read that Simeon and Levi, the brothers of Dinah, took their swords and came upon these men, and as they were in such a helpless state as they were, they killed them all.

Now that is a sad thing to read. And then they took all their things.

Sad indeed.

Well, we have to get beyond that and what about our initial question? Is there such a thing as a religious vigilante? I think there could be. I think this story shows us that such a thing could be and gives us some warnings and some things to look at as we consider why we do what we do, in the name of God and religion.

Something which stands out perhaps more than anything, is that in all these meetings where we read that such and such [b]communed[/b], we never read that Jacob's sons communed with him. Hamor came out to commune with Jacob and met with Jacob's sons. And then later we read that Hamor and Shechem communed with the men of their city, but why do we not read of Jacob's sons communing with him? Why did they not seek to know the will and mind of their father before they sought to take revenge? Did their rage and their anger blind them to wisdom and what was right?

Jacob says to them as a result of all this

"Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land"

And I think, how might we bring shame and do damage to the name and cause of God in our land, if we go about taking justice into our own hands, without consulting God? Oh, our cause might be just, but is this the Lord's way, and is it His timing?

And then even more troubling than all of that, is what is perhaps the divine commentary on all of this as we have it when Jacob, in his old age, is standing to bless his sons. And when he comes to Simeon and Levi, the two who actually put all of this into action, he says

"Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations. O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honor, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their self-will they digged down a wall. Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel."

- Genesis chapter 49 verses 5-7

Ohh friends, what a terrible, an awful summary of these things. I said before how I would come back to this point I made earlier, how the will of these men prevailed in this. And here it is, here I think we have the whole summation of this question that is before us, of what it might be and mean, to be a religious vigilante:

[i]...for in their anger they slew a man, and in their self-will they digged down a wall. [/i]

Isn't that it then, those two things. If something would characterize taking matters into our own hands, and not seeking to do the will of God, wouldn't it be these two evil twins, [b]self-will[/b] and [b]anger[/b].

interesting thread brothers and sisters. it has been good thinking of these things and what our motive and thought is on why we judge and how we judge.

matthew 7:1-5
" 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye".

notice that it is with the same judgement and measure that we use that will be measured back to us. so if we judge with holy judgement and love, zealous for His will, it will be measured back to us that way.

people use the first verse "of judge not lest you be judged", but neglect the context of the passage. the passage shows us not to judge [b]unrighteously[/b] by looking at their speck and neglecting our log. but pay attention to the verse 5. "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see [b]clearly[/b] to remove the speck from your brother’s eye". so we are to remove our plank and then remove the speck from their eye. it's not as if we don't remove their speck, it's only that we don't do that until we've removed our plank first.

[b]"clearly"[/b]
there's always that little word there [b]"clearly"[/b]. how can we see [b]clearly[/b] until we've gone to God to show us the specks and planks in our eyes. after hearing God and obeying God in our lives, we are able to see [b]clearly[/b] to help others to remove the speck and planks in their eye.

thanks for the thoughts guys, it will remain in my mind when thinking about judging righteously.
:-)

phil

Hi everyone.

Dear Jeannette and Phil, thank you both. You've given us much to consider.

Something that came to mind just now as I was meditating on these things and something which brother Phil wrote, is how our vision can be incomplete, or partial, even after we've been made to see?

I work with blind people. I shared a while back how I got this job [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16488&forum=44&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]here[/url] and I'm so gratefull to God for His gracious provision and compassion for me.

One of the things I've learned, or become aware of while working there is that there are degrees of blindness or sightedness? We have people there who are completely blind and those who can see fairly well, but with limitations.

There is a whole spectrum there, of blindness.

I think this can be true of spiritual sight also? How that we still see through a glass darkly? We may see some things very clearly and yet be blind to others, even things about ourselves.

A while back the pastor of the congregation I attend was expositing from Mark chapter 8, in particular the passage about the man that was blind in verse 22-25. He was looking at reasons why the Lord would have healed this man the way He did, touching him the second time.

Well, before this, the Lord had miraculously fed the multitudes, not once, but twice, and after being questioned by the Pharisees to perform a sign, and having left them, He warned the disciples about the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod(perhaps warning them about their corrupting influence?), and they thought that He was talking about bread!

After reminding the disciples of these miracles, the Lord says to them

[b][color=660000] How is it that ye do not understand? [/color][/b]

And then we have this record here, how after this the man was brought to them, and the Lord heals him the way He does, touching him not once, but twice.

In John's record of the Gospel he writes how the Lord said to the people that came looking for Him, after He had fed them,

[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. [/color][/b]

And Peter, even after it was revealed to him that the Lord was the Christ, yet see how he responded after the Lord began to tell them what was to happen to Him.

It would seem that in all of these things there was a great problem, for everyone, of seeing things clearly. Of seeing the Lord Jesus, not as we, or they, or any of us would expect to see Him. But as He is.

In His prayer, what is called His High Priestly prayer, the Lord says

[b][color=660000]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world[/color][/b]

and

[b][color=660000] And I have declared unto them thy name[/color][/b]

In the King James it goes on saying...

"and will declare [i]it[/i]" but the ESV has it this way

"and I will continue to make it known"

And that seems to be the right sense to me also, that the Lord has come and revealed God to us, [i]and continues to do so[/i].

We have so many things, both within and without, that may cloud our vision.

Regardless of Judging unjustly or whatever, I can tell you this below is what scares me the most and is why I am very "SLOW" to judge if ever I do.:-)

matthew 7:1-5
" 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Hi everyone,

Jeannette, how are you?

I was looking at the example you mentioned,

"Why is there such a contrast between what Simeon and Levi did and what Phineas did?"

Something which stands out to me is the first verse in the passage you selected for us, where it says...

"Moses said unto the judges of Israel..."

Am thinking here that this maybe reffers to those in Exodus 18:21?

And so here you would have, men in authority, given a charge by Moses. Now, did they do it? I don't know.

What do you think?

Hi Jeannette,

"I suppose, on the part of those putting judgement into effect there is a responsiblility indeed a command to judge, so they weren't doing it of their own accord."

This seems like a significant difference between the two stories.

In the later you have men who are in authority being given a charge by Moses. With Jacob's sons it looks as though they just acted on their own.

This week I was listening to a reading of Paul's letter to Titus and this passage really stood out...

"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;"

- Titus 1:7(KJV)

[i]...not self-willed, not soon angry...[/i]

Grace and peace,

Chris

"The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way."

- Psalm 25:9(KJV)

Hi everyone, this morning I listened to part 2 of a message titled 'Clothed with Humility' given by K.P. Yohannan. I really appreciated it and thought it might be appropriate or helpfull for us in this topic.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15264&commentView=itemComments]Clothed in Humility, Part Two by K.P. Yohannan[/url]

As I was listening I thought about where the Lord said

[b][color=660000]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [/color][/b]

The definition of meekness that I heard some time ago and that has stayed with me is this, that it has the idea of 'strength, under control'.

That makes sense to me. And then I think of an ox, being put into a yoke; that his strength, is brought, under control.

Reply to Brother Chris

Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known. KJV

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? KJV

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath, for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him, if he thirst, give him drink, for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. KJV

Nabal was of the house of Caleb but he was churlish and evil in his doings and he was such a son of Belial, that a man could not speak to him. He insulted David but David spared him and Our Lord took him, sparing David the grief and the offence unto David’s heart for shedding blood by avenging himself.

We too should walk in strength and assurance as children of God.

Eddie

In seeing that we are under a new Covenant and the old is passing away..this better covenant..we should fix our eyes upon Jesus when trying to derive a standard to judge by.Scouring through the old testament law ,while seeking to to live in the higher and better law of love and liberty seems to me nothing more than a religious mental exercise..not a spritually alive quest..why go backwards..into a nation of religious and ruthless, rebellious people to derive insights..unless it is to see the uselessness of the law to prevent sin in the lives of God's people..and yes we learn from history..what not to do mostly.We mostly learn what to avoid.

So many of these stories,such as the tale in Judges concerning the concubine who is thrown out to the rapists because the master was too proud to listen to the servant who warned not to go that way..and then did not find favor in the townsquare,being left till evening ignored by the townspeople as far as the extending of customary hospitality was concerned..just the old man offered,who didn't even think it was a good idea..where was the witness? So enter the badguys..demanding their evil desire be slaked...not us men..oh no..take the virgin ..take this whore of a concubine who fled from me and ran back to her father( anybody get a witness on why she ran back to dear ol dad..abuse perhaps..wouldn't be the first time a man called a woman a whore for leaving him,from shrinking from or defying his abusive advances) these men were cowardly,grotesquely so..Christ lays down His life for the bride..protects the weak or do concubines not count.Does God have a different standard..it is ok for women to be raped,but men should avoid this at all costs?

As we go on with this sordid tale of the state of fallen man..out goes the poor sacrificial lamb..terrible tragedy ensues..and left out side, dies with her hand on the door handle at the threshold,at dawn..don't these guys see her coming..or did they take a nap?..why are they not awake ,praying ..watching?..The coldness of this master is astonishing as he steps over her without seeing..let's go..get up..nice guy..doesn't stop and see if he can comfort her,or to give her a hand up..oh dear me! She is dead!Oh He's angry now..did they pay for concubines in those days?..His investment ruined..then he dessicrates her body..breaking the law..and starts a war between the tribes of Israel,which nearly anniliated the tribe of Benjamin ..but oh! God told them to!

When I read this story I believe I heard the Father say..I did not give them permission to do that..they had made a god like unto themselves and was following their own desire..a revengeful spirit seduced them.And so I read on..as if this wasn't bad enough then they kidnap all the temple dancers from Shiloh's harvest celebration..Because of the hasty vows they made..to God..it was their pride I suspect they were protecting..not their relationship with the Most High. God is not a kidnapper..or the author of this sort of thing..His true face is seen in Jesus..the same yesterday today and forever.

When we rightly divide the word..we can see where it is only man's soulish notions of who God is..and what He is saying vs. the Reality of Who God is and What He is saying..Jesus is the Truth (Reality) I cannot help but see this all over the old testament..God said this and God said that ..but the Holy Spirit is shaking my head no..God did not say..this was man's soul in the mix..only seeing to the degree he could understand..and we know that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit for they are spiritually discerned..of we who are filled with the spirit often struggle to grasp the spiritual truths as laid forth by Jesus ..His words and actions..and know Him to the degree that we do..as the seeds of His word sown in our hearts germinate and take hold..growing towards the light as they do. Why would we seek wisdom from the antics of men who were far from Him in their hearts and minds..even dear David's words of vengence upon his enemies must be abandoned in favor of Christ's higher way. David's oftimes selfish focus on justice for himself..his prayers asking for himself but not others..a me focus..not a we focus.

My heart says..go forward,follow Jesus..let the dead bury those who were dead to the life of Christ who were under the law..stop using their lesser principles..these only led to the religious madness that crucified Christ.

I do not say we aren't ever led to view what has gone on before..but before you start trying to weave portions of these threads of old thinking into the fabric of your own making,remniscent of old wineskins bursting ..or the patch shrinking to try to adhere to the old..understand that when Jesus was refering to the Law and the Prophets..He usually said..where they are speaking of Me,always comparing what was written with what was better..laying forth the new...releasing us from the old.

And so as we read the OT.. where does it point to,portray Christ's way..as in Elisha feeding /his enemy ..giving them drink and sending them on thier way..instead of perpetuating the madness..He was infusing it with mercy and wisdom. Where do we see Jesus? Think on these things.

After studying the OT for many decades,having a profound interest in the history of my ancestors..being a jewess..I came to see a people chosen,not because they were so amazing..so unique from the rest of mankind..I see God revealing the difference between man's inability to grasp the true nature of God even when given a form as close to revealing the Lamb Of God that would be found throughout all of history..a vivid expose as to what happens when religion becomes god and man's understanding is all there is..I see God using Israel to reveal His love and mercy..His compassion in bearing with man as He moves to set up his kingdom on earth ..where man can be free from the letter of the law and live in the living law of love and liberty.Israel as a proud and rebellious nation ,barbaric and vengeful..God spares them from ethnic cleansing ..so what do they do..they wipe everybody outwho was going to kill them..most of these probably never even knew what the leadership had conspired to do..but the law of sowing and reaping stands until there is a sacrifice for sins..and if you do not confess the sin is it automatically covered..or does it being unconfessed due to not being grasped as sin fall under some place such as sins of omssision..No wonder God wearied of the way things were handled..despising their festivals..did God rejoice in desrtuction on this level..retaliation? I ask does this reflect the gospel of Christ..not even close..and thus they perpetuated the cycle of killing and massacre.It is no wonder the Jews have seen this come upon themselves again and again..atrocity following atrocity..a self perpetuating evil.

Why do we not see that God's way is the same as Christ Jesus..is it that man couldn't precieve of this better way and so God worked with them where they were at. The fix never remained,they would gain ground,as we see in the Books of Kings,tearing down false altars etc,however rarely did they hold their enemy (within and without) at bay for longer than one generation and wham everything was a mess again..Could it have been that the split between the nation displeased God more than they could guess? This causes me to see the parallels in todays church.polarized from one another due to differences that are unimportant,unworthy of our true purpose.

The old covenant wasn't perfect.. it was used to hold them in check,bring a semblance of order to a people who could not govern themselves..until the time when God could bring forth His Living Word..the OT is like a map that without the key you are not going to see what God is saying to us who are filled with the Spirit of Christ..it cannot be fully understood without the Spirit.It must be read leaning on the Spirit of heavenly wisdom..or it will spark you to also seek revenge..to desire to annilhilate your enemies..it is the works of darkness that The Lord has conquered..the people..all faiths and cultures,these He sends us to save. Israel needed a Messiah as did all nations..why would God play favorites..Israel was chosen as an example..God's promised to Abraham through the seed of Issac(laughter) a miracle child..a child of promise and God showed forth His miraculous powerunto this nation..I have always been so much more impressed with all the times that God used the mighty angels to bring the enemy down or psycological subterfuge..when I see man take up arms agaicst his own countryman,and those who are not..my spirit cries out Stop the madnes! Kiss the son..the Prince Of Peace.. a kiss that vows allegiance..not a kiss of betrayal for all in which He stands.

I know that it will only worsen until the time God sends the heavenly host over the face of the earth to cleanse it of the wicked,as in the days of Pharoah..we will not have to defile our hands with blood..we will not have to wreak more havoc with our own vengence..we are as sacrificial lambs..and like our Master,our recompense has been laid up for millenium...Jesus laid the recompense for all the priests and the prophets of old at Jerusalem's doorstep and surely she did reap destruction..to the generation as spoken,but God speaks to me now of every innocent life taken,brutalized and destroyed whether physically or mentally/emotionally..every woman and child mistreated,raped ,cast out and abandoned,murdered and robbed..every man who has suffered the same..from the beginning of man.Then there are the saints martyred for Christ's kingdom...there is a huge recompense ..blood that still cries out to God like Abel's from the earth..Oh Israel so blind and religiously bound..where is your Savior? He came and she missed it..and now she is surrounded by enemies..and still she makes a covennant with death..O pray for Israel for peace with God to be hers.

God sent Jesus,He is the way to go,to follow..but why do God's Christed people(grafted into the Vine or of the original seed) search the scriptures of old for newness of life..where the only life that resonates with the spirit of the law is Christ Himself revealed..His grace made manifest through Faith..stay focused upon Him and our light will shine brighter and brighter as the noon day.

It is good to read, to know what has come before..but never use the old covenant for a measuring rod..it is not plumb with the Lord Christ..whose glory is the exact expression of the Glory of the Father.

Hi brother Eddie,

"Nabal was of the house of Caleb but he was churlish and evil in his doings and he was such a son of Belial, that a man could not speak to him."

One of the examples that brother K.P mentioned in the message about humility was the life of David. Like in the example you mentioned, he did not take things into his own hands concerning Saul either.

Here is a link to part one also...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15263&commentView=itemComments]Clothed in Humility, Part One by K.P. Yohannan[/url]

Grace and peace,

Chris

destinysweet,

I am so lifted up by your post. It is wonderful to see one who is even called a Jew finding the truth of The Christ that has been birthed in us.
Truly making us Jews inwardly.

Your treatise on the old and the new is so refreshing. Most people try to co-mingle the old testament with the new and bring the Law to Grace and put them together and make them work for man, destroying them both.

There is only One that will work for man and God used the whole old testament to show how He was going to do it. This is the mystery that Paul is speaking of when he said, God chose him from His mothers womb to reveal this mystery in him, that is the rebirth of Jesus Christ in Paul and knowing that the only life he would live was the life of the Son that is born again in him.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, Galatians 1:16-17 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Three years Christ was in Paul and he came to know who he was truly in Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This making Paul a son of God by the Son of God in Him and making Paul a minister of this truth.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Thank you again. How refreshing it is to know one who is truly a Jew: Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Again praise God and; Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Truly In Christ by rebirth: Phillip

Hi everyone,

destinysweet, about this...

"I do not say we aren't ever led to view what has gone on before..but before you start trying to weave portions of these threads of old thinking into the fabric of your own making..."

I think I can understand what you are saying here. It seems like the safe way is to follow the lead of the Apostles as they brought forth things both new and old for us to consider and to follow them as they gave us instruction out of the Scriptures. Like you said, often giving us examples of what not to do, but sometimes of what to do, also.

I was reminded how the Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] Therefore every scribe [i]which is[/i] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [i]that is[/i] a householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [i]things[/i] new and old. [/color][/b]

- Matthew 13:52(KJV)

I think for instance of Peter, and how in instructing wives, saying that they should be "...of a meek and quiet spirit", he says

"Even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord..."

- 1 Peter 3:6(KJV)

And Paul, writting of the things which happened in the wilderness said

"Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

- 1 Corinthians 10:11(KJV)

Or James, writing about the prophets saying,

"Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience."

- James 5:10(KJV)

Jude calls us to remember the example of Sodom and Gomorrah and the author of Hebrews gives us so many examples of faith. And in the revelation that John recieved we are reminded of what Balaam did.

In all these things I think of how Paul told Timothy,

"All Scripture [i]is[/i] given by inspiration of God, and [i]is[/i] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

- 2 Timothy 3:16-17(KJV)

In coming back to the subject of this thread, we were looking at how the Lord Jesus said His judgment was just, because He did not seek His own will. But in the case of Jacob's sons, it seems that is what they did, their own will.

Well, take care for now, and wish you all well,

Chris

Katy-Did,

I really appreciated this last post!

"We have the mind of Christ, and with that mind reading OT scripture we can discern with the help of the Holy Spirit how to apply the ALL scripture is given for ."

That seems right to me also! That there is a right way to apply these things. Something else that comes to mind in this, is that we not only apply the scriptures accurately, but also timely, at the appropriate time and setting, and in the right spirit.

I thought of how the Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]

- John 8:26(KJV)

How many things could He have said to them! But it seems here that though there were so many things that were true, that He could have said, in order to judge rightly it was needful that He discern what the Father wanted Him to say and not only what was true.

Couldn't He have used His knowledge to shut every mouth, to silence every critic? But was that God's way? Was it what the Father was doing, right then?

And this seems to me to be connected with the idea of being meek. That all of our faculties are brought into subjection and under the control of God. So that we do not speak of, or out of, ourselves, and only out of our knowledge, even if it is true.

Just now I thought of a still pond. And of the ripples that would go out from a pebble being cast into it.

Perhaps our spirits, having been subdued, are to be as that pond, and our words the ripples that go out from the pebbles that the Lord would cast into it.

Grace and peace,

Chris

Hi Katy-Did,

Thank you for sharing those passages :-)

When I read that passage from 1 Corinthians 4:5, this also came to mind,

"But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [i]one[/i] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [i]his[/i] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."

- 1 Corinthians 14:24-25(KJV)

Take care for now,

Chris

Christ came to fulfill the Law, thus making it void, (Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.) and the Word of God Himself birthed in us with the Incorruptable Seed of the Father in us, (1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.)thus making us and the Law and the Word of God complete in Christ.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

In loving one another with a pure heart, that heart is the Christ in us. 1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

By this loving one another: 1 John 5:1-4 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

This is the total of what Paul was given to preach to us. The fulfillment of God's plan before the foundation of the world, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", that is our only Glory.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Thus in Christ we are complete and only then are we alive to God, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". Fulfilling the Word of God and the Law in us.

Hi Katy-did,

Thank you for the refrence to the greek word. I looked it up and found over 90 instances of it in e-sword!

Something that came to mind in regards to this passage is Malachi 3:5. Compare with Matthew 23.

Take care for now,

Chris

Katy-Did,

"Although Discernment is a Gift, it's also a gift to all according to Hebrews 5:14."

But the gift mentioned in 1Co 12:10 is [i]discerning of spirits[/i] and the passage in hebrews says [i]discerning between good and evil[/i].

The gift in Corinthians is called a gift of the Spirit, but the discernment in Hebrews is said to be through the [i]senses[/i].

Vincent's Word Studies says of this word in the entry for this passage,

Their senses (τὰ αἰσθητήρια)
N.T.o. Organs of perception; perceptive faculties of the mind. In lxx see Jer_4:19; 4 Macc. 2:22.

Chris

Hi Katy-did,

About the passage from Matthew, sure, I didn't mean to disagree with what you were saying there before, yet it seems the Lord did prounounce judgments also. But I think He said He could do this, because God was with Him, and He wasn't making these judgments on His own.

Chris

Hi Katy-Did,

"We may or may not be talking about the same thing here."

I think we are talking about different things.

[b][color=660000] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. [/color][/b]

- John 5:30

The context of the passage in John 8 is that the Lord Jesus was asked to make a jugdment about the woman taken in adultery. The Law demanded that she be put to death. And so they sought to catch Him, to see if He would judge unjustly.

After this, and after being accused of falsely testifying of Himself, He told them,

[b][color=660000]Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. [/color][/b]

They judged out of their own knowledge.

He did not judge anyone [b]of Himself[/b].

But,

[b][color=660000] And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. [/color][/b]

So, when He did make judgements, whether as to the character of someone,

[b][color=660000] Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile![/color][/b]

as of Nathaniel,

or

[b][color=660000]Ye fools and blind[/color][/b]

as of the scribes and pharisees

He did it, not according to human knowledge, but,

[b][color=660000]I speak that which I have seen with my Father...[/color][/b]

This is in contrast with people guessing, or stating as fact what they think they know, about events from history, or current events, or about others.

[b][color=660000] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. [/color][/b]

- John 5:30

THIS IS A POWEFUL POST:

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

- John chapter 8 verses 15-16(KJV)

Hi Katy-Did,

"What is the most important issue here?"

well, I don't know.

I think one thing is important, whether we will be found to be liars, slanderers, and false accusers on the Day of Judgment. Because we did our own will?

Hi Katy-Did,

"So, one must be Born Again, being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ,..."

Back to what you had asked about what matters here, to which I had replied

"I think one thing is important, whether we will be found to be liars, slanderers, and false accusers on the Day of Judgment. Because we did our own will?"

The word for Devil in Matthew chatper 4, according to Strong's is

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, traducer means

tra·duce (tr…-d›s“, -dy›s“) tr.v. tra·duced, tra·duc·ing, tra·duc·es. To cause humiliation or disgrace to by making malicious and false statements. See Synonyms at malign. [Latin tr³d¿cere, to lead as a spectacle, dishonor : tr³-, tr³ns-, trans- + d¿cere, to lead; see deuk- below.] --tra·duce“ment n. --tra·duc“er n. --tra·duc“ing·ly adv.

The word translated Satan in Matthew chapter 4, according to Strong's is

G4567
Σατανᾶς
Satanas
sat-an-as'
Of Chaldee origin corresponding to G4566 (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satan.

In John 8 he is said to be the father of lies.

Also "for there is NOW no condemnation to those who are in Christ."

...who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[b][color=660000] Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.[/color][/b]

Take care,

Chris

Hi Katy-Did,

"Is this what is bothering you? You seem to want to bring this thread back to this point."

I think that is the point of this thread, how we judge and by what means we do it.

Thank you for the ecouragement. :-)

Chris