"Desiring the 'gifts' of The Spirit"

I believe it may be very important to have an accurate view of the 'gifts'.

The verses in these 3 Chapters [u]must[/u] each be read in context - as they were written. Just as each sentence begins with a conjunction for that purpose. To seperate these verses from the context - from the surrounding verses, is to mis-interpret the subject of the gifts.
These three Chpt.s cover 'His' Body which is ONE Body, of which He is The Head --- Main Point.
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- the 9 Manifestation gifts.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1Co 12:7 [i]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.[/i]

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the [u]word of wisdom[/u]; to another the [u]word of knowledge[/u] by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:9 To another [u]faith [/u]by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of [u]healing[/u] by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:10 To another the working of [u]miracles[/u]; to another [u]prophecy[/u]; to another [u]discerning of spirits[/u]; to another [u]divers kinds of tongues[/u]; to another the [u]interpretation of tongues[/u]:

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man [b][u][i]severally as he will.[/i] [/u]

1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, [u]as it hath pleased Him.[/u]

1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked:

1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.[/b]

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- the Motivational Gifts.

Rom 12:1 [b]I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same function:

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. [/b]

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether [u]prophecy[/u], let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Rom 12:7 Or [u]ministry/serving[/u], let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on [u]teaching;[/u]

Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on [u]exhortation[/u]: he that [u]giveth/giving[/u], let him do it with simplicity; he that [u]ruleth[/u], with diligence; he that showeth [u]mercy[/u], with cheerfulness.

Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

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the 5 Ministerial Gifts.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Eph 4:2 [b]With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.[/b]

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Eph 4:11 And he gave some,[u] apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers[/u];

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 [b]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. [/b]

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To say it directly - once our eyes are on "the gift", we'll go off.

Any Saint, that has gotten their eyes off of themselves - dying to self - can potentially be used in all of the above, as He Wills - because they will be on this earth, just as He was. He lowered Himself and took our form. Dependent on The Father to direct His every thought, word and action.

We won't be looking to see if we are being used in a gift - nor take notice when we are - we'll just "walk in Him" and the works that He did, any Saint may do also - to the degree that we decrease so that He will increase - seeking His Glory and His Will only and to live for others only, as He did.

To look at oneself for what gifts we are being used in is Not From Him.

To desire to be like Jesus. To be transformed into His Image. To have His Mind. To be full of Truth and nothing but His Truth - that is our goal - not "gifts" - but to [i]be like Him.[/i]

The "gifts" will manifest without self being involved, through any Saint that is dying to self. To the degree that they die to self - to that degree they will do what He did.

He had All the "[i]gifts[/i]" - we are to be as He was in the world.
He depended 100% on the Spirit. If we stop our autonomous way of thinking and living - as He walked totally dependent on the Father for every word, thought and deed - then it won't be "gifts" that we'll be looking for, but just to obey the Father in whatever He would have us to do, think or say and "gifts" are just part of Him living His life through us. They are not to be glorified - He is.

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 [i]Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in Heaven. [/i]

God Bless.

Hia Brother.

There are "gifts" and then there are "Commandments".

Charity [i]is[/i] "Agape"/Love.

To Love and sacrifice oneself is a commandment.

Love is not listed as a "gift", wherein, some are 'gifted' with more love than others are.

Love is a "choice".

We don't "choose" our 'gifts' mentioned above.
We can desire - but God chooses.

Hi Suzy, I think you'll enjoy this as I do, by Paul then Leonard Ravenhill. :-)

[b]Php 3:7-14 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Quotes by Leonard Ravenhill

My goal is God Himself.
Not joy.
Not peace.
Not even blessing, but Himself, my God.
It is His to lead me there, not mine but His,
At any cost, dear Lord, by any road.
So faith bounds forward to its goal in God and love can trust our Lord to lead her there.
I pray by Him my soul will follow hard ’til God has at last fulfilled my deepest prayer
No matter if the way become sometimes dark.
No matter if the cost be often great.
He knoweth how I best should reach the mark.
The way that leads to Him must need be straight.
One thing I know, I cannot say to Him nay.
One thing I do, I press toward my God.
The secret of the life of the apostle was this - you want to know – it’s "this one thing I do" - he never got into sidetracks.
He never got into business like so many preachers do.
This one thing I do, it will be hell to get there.
I forget – one of the old puritan preachers said in the 1600s - you have to go through hell to get to heaven.
You have to lose everything in order to become the part of the Bride of Jesus Christ.
One thing I know, I cannot say to Him nay.
One thing I do, I press toward my Lord.
My God, my glory here from day to day.
And in the glory then, my great reward. [HIM]

Christianity hasn’t been tried and found wanting…
It’s been tried and found difficult and rejected.[/b]

Ah, one more by A.B. Simpson - 1904 ~

[b]Once it was the blessing,
Now it is the Lord;
Once it was the feeling,
Now it is His Word;
Once His gift I wanted,
Now, the Giver own;
Once I sought for healing,
Now Himself alone.

Refrain

All in all forever,
Jesus will I sing;
Everything in Jesus,
And Jesus everything.

Once ’twas painful trying,
Now ’tis perfect trust;
Once a half salvation,
Now the uttermost;
Once ’twas ceaseless holding,
Now He holds me fast;
Once ’twas constant drifting,
Now my anchor’s cast.

Refrain

Once ’twas busy planning,
Now ’tis trustful prayer;
Once ’twas anxious caring,
Now He has the care;
Once ’twas what I wanted,
Now what Jesus says;
Once ’twas constant asking,
Now ’tis ceaseless praise.

Refrain

Once it was my working,
His it hence shall be;
Once I tried to use Him,
Now He uses me;
Once the pow’r I wanted,
Now the Mighty One;
Once for self I labored,
Now for Him alone.

Refrain

Once I hoped in Jesus,
Now I know He’s mine;
Once my lamps were dying,
Now they brightly shine;
Once for death I waited,
Now His coming hail;
And my hopes are anchored
Safe within the veil.

Refrain[/b]

Bless GOD!

Hey Brother Clint. I'm glad you were 'pokey'. :-)

Look you posted Phil 3. By 2 or 3 is something established. (paraphrased)

This past summer, the Lord spoke to my spirit about "olives being squashed to the max, to get the olive oil out". Yes Sir - what you've said on "suffering, being crushed, being mutilated as far as this flesh is concerned" is right on target.

And as you wrote - "constantly and consistently seeking to Know the Lord Jesus Christ" - Amen.

No greater gift can we give Him than ourselves, as a living sacrifice, to do with us as He pleases. Even if it's just cleaning commodes at the Church. Amen!

Dying to self - as Suzy wrote.

"That I might Know Him" - the rest is just the by-products.

I do pray this year though - that "discernment" will increase through-out the Church, with that proper measure of [i]mercy[/i] combined.

All believers should learn/know HIS Voice, as well as their own - John 10.

And then John 16:13 will be the by-product of knowing His Voice well.

He promised to 'all' of His own, 'The Spirit of Truth' and the Overcomers, 'the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy'.
John 10 - John 16:13 and Rev 19:10 go hand in hand and are for all of His Elect - everyone of them.
Pray discernment between truth & error for The Saints, during this apostasy and until He Comes.

Bless God and [u]Thank you[/u] Brother.

"....for the sheer joy of pleasing Christ." :-)

Good Post Suzy. :-)

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (self-control): against such there is no law.”

Till Christ be formed in you. "Fruit" - singular.

Reminded me of the love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance that we have before the world, as a last days witness and these verses...

1Pe 3:12-16 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Very neat - Thank you!!

1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Bless The LORD!

Hia Brother - maybe if you take another look.
The first posts were saying that a person can be used in ALL the gifts - if they are where God wants them and the "fruit" is Singular - because that's what Gal 5:22 says.

If you "put on Christ"/"walk in the Spirit", you'll have His love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience - Etc.
That's why "they" are called 'fruit-singular' - and not "fruits".

LORD Bless.

the "fruit" is Singular - because that's what Gal 5:22 says.

If you think about it, the fruit of the Spirit is borne through abiding in the Vine. This is different from the anointing of the Holy Spirit which brings the enabling of certain gifts to individual believers' lives, by which the body is edified - built up - to the increase of itself in love (Eph 4:16). Personally, I believe that evangelism is also about the edification of the body, because until all the members have been brought in, we are incomplete.

There was a discussion in another thread about this, and lovegrace pointed out there are people who appear to have power, but not character. I am not advocating this split, because I don't see it in Jesus. The spread of scripture which was offered by HE_Reigns, is a blessed reminder of Paul's exhortations to live [u]and walk[/u] in the Spirit, when these manifestations of the grace of God upon our lives, should be inevitable. Thank you, Annie.

Thank you Sis for drawing that picture clearer for us. We can use all the help that we can get. That's Good Body functioning. :-)

I'm asking here for prayer for Moe and pastorfrin.

Thank you!!!

Amen ~ Thank you Brother Philip!

Hia David.

About the fruit ...

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 [u]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.[/u]
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

"The 'fruit' of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (against such there is no law.)

Paul is discussing "walking in the Spirit", like Jesus did.

Love is always first - then how can we have love without the others ?

How could we be walking in HIS Spirit - and only possess a few of these and not the rest?

Only when we get in the flesh again - we lose love and the whole other listed virtues fall with it. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

How could you have joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance without love?

And if you are walking in His Spirit then they are one "nature" --- HIS.
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1 Corth 12:31 - The sense seems to be this, “I have proved that all endowments in the church are produced by the Holy Spirit; and that He confers them as he pleases. I have been showing that no one should be proud or elated on account of extraordinary endowments; and that, on the other hand, no one should be depressed, or sad, or discontented, because he has a more humble rank. I have been endeavoring to repress and subdue the spirit of discontent, jealousy, and ambition; and to produce a willingness in all to occupy the station where God has placed you. But, I do not intend to deny that it is proper to desire the most useful endowments; that a man should wish to be brought under the influence of the Spirit, and qualified for eminent usefulness. I do not mean to say that it is wrong for a man to regard the higher gifts of the Spirit as valuable and desirable, if they may be obtained; nor that the spirit which seeks to excel in spiritual endowments and in usefulness, is improper.
Yet all cannot be apostles; all cannot be prophets. I would not have you, therefore, seek such offices, and manifest a spirit of ambition. I would seek to regulate the desire which I would not repress as improper; and in order to that, I would show you that, instead of aspiring to offices and extraordinary endowments which are beyond your grasp, there is a way, more truly valuable, that is open to you all, and where all may excel.” Paul thus endeavors to give a practicable and feasible turn to the whole subject, and further to repress the longings of ambition and the contentions of strife, by exciting emulation to obtain that which was accessible to them all, and “which, just in the proportion in which it was obtained,” would repress discontent, and strife, and ambition, and produce order, and peace, and contentedness with their endowments and their lot, the main thing which he was desirous of producing in this chapter. This, therefore, is one of the “happy turns” in which the writings of Paul abounds. He did not denounce their zeal as wicked. He did not attempt at once to repress it. He did not say that it was wrong to desire high endowments. But he showed them an endowment which was more valuable than all the others; which was accessible to all; and which, if possessed, would make them contented, and produce the harmonious operation of all the parts of the church. That endowment was love.
A more excellent way - See the next chapter. “I will show you a more excellent way of evincing your “zeal” than by aspiring to the place of apostles, prophets, or rulers, and that is by cultivating universal charity or love.”

Albert Barnes above did a great job.

That's why the two chpt.s about the gifts have a chpt on Love sandwiched between them. Though there were no verse numbers or chapters in what Paul originally wrote.
It was just one long discourse on the Body walking in dependence on The Head or in His Spirit --- same thing. But the greatest of these is love.

Any better?

Hia brothers.

I must admit, you both have me a bit perplexed.

Have you read the very first post on page one?

Because "The Body" and "Love" is being focused on - I wonder if maybe, the first post here got lost from the sandwich?

Could you both try one more time to read the first post - pg. 1 and see if there's something else that I could maybe try to answer more clearly, from the Word?

Thank you lots & God Bless!

Hi everyone.

I'm trying to figure if it's something in the wording in my first post on pg. 1 that is causing y'all to not see what it says?

:-o

I'll drag just one fragment of it to here and see if it helps to seperate it from the whole - though, I don't want to seperate this from the whole - the parts about "the Body" and dying to self and then even going on to where Suzy helped us get the "love" part in - Gal 5 and we went to 1 Corth 13 being smack dabbed in the middle of the two chpt.s on the gifts. Neat!

anyhows, here's that small part from post 1 -

[i]"He had All the "gifts" - we are to be as He was in the world.
He depended 100% on the Spirit. If we stop our autonomous way of thinking and living - as He walked totally dependent on the Father for every word, thought and deed - then it won't be "gifts" that we'll be looking for, but just to obey the Father in whatever He would have us to do, think or say and "gifts" are just part of Him living His life through us. They are not to be glorified - He is."[/i]

GLORY to GOD!

HE_Reigns wrote:
Hia Brother - maybe if you take another look.
The first posts were saying that a person can be used in ALL the gifts - if they are where God wants them and the "fruit" is Singular - because that's what Gal 5:22 says.

If you "put on Christ"/"walk in the Spirit", you'll have His love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience - Etc.
That's why "they" are called 'fruit-singular' - and not "fruits".

LORD Bless.

Only just really looked at this thread with a view to commenting, but couldn't resist ;-)

The best illustration I know of the difference between fruit and gifts is a Christmas tree. You can put lots of gifts on a Christmas tree, put them on and take them off as you choose. But if the living tree bears pine cones, then that's the fruit!

Gifts are temporary, they come and go, fruit remains. Gifts (even the best gifts) are superficial,in the sense they can be put on and taken off without making any difference to the tree; [b]fruit is from the very substance of the tree itself, and bears its seed[/b].

Hope that helps?

in Him

Jeannette

Thank you LittleGift for that excellent analogy of the "fruit" of The Spirit.

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Hia Brother David. Somehow, (I don't know [i]how[/i] yet), folks have read my first opening post to read that I don't believe in the gifts.

I strongly believe in all of them - but the emphasis is not to be on the "gifts" and though we are told to desire to prophecy --- that has been abused and misunderstood in these days and thought to mainly concern "fore-telling" future events, etc..

Prophecy in the N.T. Church is to just speak directly the "very oracles of GOD" - which come directly from Him - as in, what is the mind of Christ, at that moment - that is From His Word or from His knowledge of needs in the Church or world.
The True "burden of the Lord" from His Word.
Whether that be a word about the need for repentance or where the congregation has gone 'away' from His Word and so forth, from HIS perspective from Heaven.
It is also doctrinal purity - which is the main purpose of "The Spirit of TRUTH".
Doctrinal purity also includes "right living".
This was the case even for the O.T. prophets.
Without doctrinal purity - I doubt the source of "future telling", because that would contradict the purpose and nature of "The Spirit of TRUTH."

Regarding the "gifts" - in the first post I split them into their three categories.

1 Corth 12 are the Manifestational Gifts. These are Not "resident" --- they are "severally as HE wills". They are "at the moment" gifts that GOD Himself manifests [i]through[/i] the Saint. Any Saint can be used in any or all of these within their lifetime, IF HE so chooses to use them and when HE chooses. They are "as needed", from HIS View and not ours. We do not control these gifts - they (if seen properly) - are HIM working through the person, to meet a specific need. We cannnot "work up" these manifestations at will.

Next were the Romans 12 "Motivational Gifts". Now these [i]are[/i] resident. In other words, they are what motivates the person toward their own particular "Burden" and what they seem to focus on most in their lives.

To just give one example - the people with the "gift of mercy", are normally those who come to other's defense, more times than those with the gift of "teaching" does. The teacher will want to immediately correct and straighten out the doctrinal error and the person with the gift of mercy will want to more see the person with the error than the error itself. That being a loose translation of how these gifts "motivate" the life of the person possessing whichever of these seven gifts. But shows how we must see others "leanings" and understand when their motivation is at work and not see it from our own understanding and get annoyed with each other's differences or "giftings". In this case, the one who "teaches" must bear with the one with "mercy" and vice versa - just different "Body parts" doing what they're born to do.

Lastly were the "Ministerial Gifts". We all know enough about "the 5 fold" Ministries. Probably have already heard enough about them to strangle ourselves with them - but none the less - if seen properly - they are for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ and so on.

These also are normally Resident and a calling. But that does not mean that God limits Himself by using a Saint in only one each. A person can be used in all 5. There are no limits with Him - depending on His Wisdom of the person and the circumstances He has chosen in which to place the person. Thinking of some like Paul or some of our present day Missionaries, for instance - and those whom Daniel spoke of (and Amos) -- who will live within the time frame of the Last Days.

Now about the difference between how Jesus walked and how we should walk --- there should be entirely NO difference.

Repeatedly Jesus said that He did "nothing of Himself" and His words were "not His Own".

He "emptied" Himself and allowed Himself to become entirely dependent on The Spirit of God The Father.

He was a living example of HOW we're Supposed to walk this walk - In The Spirit.

Yes, HE was GOD in the flesh, but HE became a man just as us, tempted in all manners such as we - but without sin.

How many times is He placed before us as our example of how to walk? In 100% total dependence on hearing and following The Spirit of God and not our own thoughts and actions ------- just as HE.

The emphasis still should not be "the gifts" and that is exactly why Paul had to write all of that to the Church at Corinth. They were Greeks and were going bonkers over there with these things. One needs to read those multiple chapters addressed to them in context to get the drift of what was going on there and why Paul needed to write concerning their behavior and misunderstandings of the "gifts". (Which still exists - just as back then.)

Looking at the 14th chpt alone, one can see that Paul was stressing "order" in the Church - that didn't exist with them and still plagues the charismatics.

psalm1 wrote:Annie, yes I agree we should not worship the gifts we should worship Jesus.
I dont know of any teaching that espouses worshipping the gifts.
I dont think it is correct to say Jesus had all the gifts.
Jesus was and is the I am.
Jesus didn't use the gifts to resurrect Lazarus or himself.
Jesus said "I am the resurrection"
No man can say this.
The gifts come from God.
They are to man.
Ive never heard the automatic theory that they are just part of Him living His life through us.
Prayer is not automatic or fasting or worship.
There is human initiation involved in these and also in operating in the gifts.

That is why Paul said "but covet earnestly the best gifts."

David

Brother - this is where you are misunderstanding. If you just look at the "Working of The Spirit of GOD" as these "gifts" - I can see where you would say that Jesus wasn't used in all "the gifts".

This is the problem in the non-cesstationists minds. It is the "Working of the Spirit of GOD" [i]through[/i] Jesus and with us. Same Spirit - but because we have teeny-weeny brains and limited understanding - GOD broke down these "workings" into individual "gifts and giftings" - so that we can handle being used by HIM in smaller bites. Yes, Jesus was "used in all the so-called gifts" - if we look at the "gifts" and then realize HE "walked in dependence on The Spirit" as we are supposed to and the only reason GOD had to bust them down to "individual actions" of the Holy Spirit (ie "gifts") was because our minds are only human and thence - dull.

In your post above - you are not seeing where the humanity of Christ was for our example and being able to distinquish between the Deity of Christ and His lowering Himself as man to be an example to us of HOW we are "to walk".

As far as "human initiation", as you mentioned above --- that is NOT with the "gifts". "Fasting, worship, and prayer" are not part of the gifts - as you mentioned them above and yes, they are controlled by our wills - but even there we are told to "worship in Spirit and Truth" and "pray in The Spirit".

Jesus depended on The Father to raise Lazarus. He "looked up and prayed to the Father for answer" before God rose Lazarus through Jesus. So YES - if you desire to raise the dead --- as you've expressed --- you will need to have a "word from God" First --- that that 'is' HIS will and then Look Up to Him to do it. YOU cannot raise the dead.

The "human initiation" involved in being used by GOD are mentioned through-out this thread and that is to "Die to Self" and desire to have HIM Increase by us Decreasing as much as humanly possible and to THAT - HE's put no "limits".

As far as your partial quote of the verse above - we covered that together on a previous page.

Paul stressed Love and prophecy as the better, with Love being the Greatest we can aspire to. And Prophecy is the unction of the Spirit of [u]TRUTH[/u].

But first - we must see - as the first post says on page one - that 'The Body with HIM AS HEAD' is the first prerequisite that should be in our minds. And Love. Then yes - the potential is limitless - "as He was in this world - so are we" supposed to be and "the works that I do - you shall do also." But it will be according to His Will and HIS timing and HIS decision of which gifts are needed where, when and through whom. Anything less, such as focusing on "our gift" grieves HIS Spirit.

To focus on the individual gifts and not "being transformed into His very Image" is to worship the gifts and not the Giver and causes us to increase in our own eyes, rather than decrease so that He can Increase, and use us in any way HE would desire, in Any way HE needs - at anytime - for any need - for any person - by whatever gifts - by whomever HE chooses to use.

I hope I've cleared up anything that may have been missing from what was posted in the first post that started this thread.

Thank you David.

LORD Bless.

Hi Brother Chris, That verse you quote is from Chpt 1 and you can't limit Paul's use of the term "gift" in that book.

You have to understand the whole book and all the problems at Corinth from both books to them and not limit 1 Corth 1:7 to just the gifts.

He 'had' to address the gifts in chpt.s 12-14 because they were misusing and not understanding being used in them.

Both Epistles to the Corinthians need to be viewed as a whole of the condition of that particualar church.

This begins 'just one' of their problems.....

1Co 1:7-12 [u] So that[/u] ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

suzy wrote:
HE_Reigns - Thank you for the challenging passage from Phillipians and Leonard Ravenhill’s comments. Here is the hymn from which he is quoting. I have not sung it for a very long time. They are words I would not want to sing unless I meant every word.

My goal is God Himself, not joy nor peace;
Nor even blessing, but Himself, my God.
'Tis His to lead me there, not mine but His...
At any cost, dear Lord, by any road.

So faith bounds forward to its goal in God,
and love can trust her Lord to lead her there.
Upheld by Him, my soul is foll'wing hard,
Till God hath full fulfilled my deepest prayer.

No matter if the way be sometimes dark,
No matter though the cost be oft-times great,
He knoweth how I best shall reach the mark,
The way that leads to Him must needs be straight.

One thing I know, I cannot say Him nay;
One thing I do, I press on towards my Lord.
My God, my Glory here from day to day,
And in the glory there, my Great Reward.

- Frederick Brook

********************************************

Love is also one of the Fruits of the Spirit

Galatians 5 v 22-23

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (self-control): against such there is no law.”

The fruit contrasts well against the works of the flesh in verses 19 – 21.

Fruit develops on the trees, so sometimes our fruit may be a little ‘immature’, but the fruit will develop and improve over time as we go through life’s trials and pleasures. We need to allow the Lord to develop this fruit in our lives. He will!

A good friend of mine used to preach that people should be able to come and 'pick' the fruit as they needed. Something to think about - can people do that from the fruit in my life? Will they find peace with me when they have found strife, or gentleness where there was harshness? There is so much hatred and turbulence in life today; O to be an oasis of the Fruit of the Spirit.

Suzy

Jeannette

broclint wrote:

Sad that so many are focused upon "MY" gift, rather than His "unspeakable Gift" (see 2 Corinthians 9:15) and rather than merely seeking God until He commands, period! Paul undoubtedly was the most "gifted" Christian that has ever lived in intellect, spiritual gifts, anointed energy and zeal for God, and etc... and no doubt served at the Lord's leading in all the above gifts... But, as other threads here have pointed out, his focus was upon the "ONE THING I DO". And his focus was not upon what he HAD done, past tense, but upon continually and constantly and consistently seeking to know the Lord Jesus Christ, counting any and all suffering in that quest as unworthy of mentioning, for the sheer joy of pleasing Christ.

Those who would aspire to exercise some "gift" will no doubt find with the minimal research in church history that the "gift" of suffering, being crushed, being mutilated as far as this flesh is concerned (as Peter also says) is usually (not always) the prerequiste to the fragrance of Christ coming out in their lives.

Clint

Not looking forward to the "crushing", but if its necessary, so be it...

As said elsewhere in other threads, I eventually gave up trying to find out what [i]my[/i] gift/gifts/ministry etc were. The Lord took away the need to struggle to "do, do do" and began to teach how to [i]"be"[/i], which is the only way to produce fruit. ...Contentment with the "as and when", day by day simply seeking to follow Him.

But I'm still a very slow learner :-(

Blessings

Jeannette

Christinyou wrote:
Who is the Gifted One?

Who distributes the Gifts as He pleases.

None of the gifts will be used unless it is Christ in you that wants them used and the Holy Spirit makes sure they are as Christ says.

John 15:4-5 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The Vine is the gifted One, the Holy Spirit is the One that distributes the Gifts of the Gifted One Jesus Christ.

John 15:4-5 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Then the Holy Spirit can distribute the Gifts as He Pleases.

John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

We are not the gifted ones. He that is in us is the only Gifted One and a mind given to Christ and presenting your bodies a living sacrifice are the only way through Jesus Christ that a gift may be operated, not as we choose but as He chooses.

In Christ the only Gifted One: Phillip

psalm1 wrote:
HE-Reigns, I am not an English teacher but if i had a bowl of different fruit on my table and someone said "look at that bowl of fruits",wouldn't you correct them?
Reindeer is plural and singular is it not?
Maybe I am wrong but this stuck out to me

David

LOVE is the fruit, because God is Love. [i][b]Within[/b][/i] that fruit called "Love" are all the manifestations of that Love - joy, peace... goodness, kindness etc.

Not like a bowl of fruits on a table but [i]one[/i] wonderful sweet Fruit of Jesus' life in us, with many ingredients.

How many ingredients are there in your favourite fruit? Maybe it looks good, smells good, tastes delicious because it is sweet and juicy. It contains vitamins and other nutrients that do you good as well as improving the taste.

All in one fruit!

Blessings

Jeannette

psalm1 wrote:
Chris, I am not sure either but HE_Reigns did clarify something .
Normally I would tell anybody to "go for it" concerning the gifts.
But the massacre that has happened both with the tv preachers and the watchdogs has just about worked its way to "no gifts"
The major revivals that I attended [at tremendous loss and sacrifice] were like the gifts on steroids.
The brethren here have corrected me to the point that I am beginning to think they are in a position of "making the gifts anemic enough to where they will just fade into the sunset".
The gifts have become a theological debate.
we think it pious and so correct to say"I seek his face and not his hand" or "dont seek the gifts, seek the giver"
This has an ELEMENT of truth but is easily turned into "no gifts" by the people predisposed that way .
Now this is interesting......suppose the Antichrist calls down fire from heaven.
This is a false miracle.
I believe many people that reject Gods gifts for whatever reason have a greater chance of deception to the false than those that have spent countless hours in the presence of God and seen God work through miracles signs and wonders.

David

Norman Meeten (whom Dorcas will know) used to call spiritual gifts, "Tools of Love".

The gifts [i][b]are[/b][/i] to be desired because of what the Fruit (= Love) can do with them!

1Cor 13 speaks of what happens if the Fruit is missing when the gifts are used.

I don't think anyone on this thread, least of all Annie, is disparaging the gifts, or saying that we shouldn't seek them, only that we should have the right [i]motives[/i] when we seek them.

Similar to when Jesus said, "Seek [i][b]first[/b][/i] the kingdom of God and his righteousness, [b]and all these things[/b] [food, drink, clothes etc] [b]shall be added...[/b]". He didn't mean we should despise the necessities of life, any more than we should despise spiritual gifts. If we seek Him [i][b]first[/b][/i] the gifts will follow. Or if we "earnestly seek the best gifts" in order to better [i]express[/i] His Love to others.

Gifts hung on a Christmas tree look pretty, but what use are they if they aren't taken off and used to bless someone?

Do we earnestly desire spiritual gifts to make ourselves "look pretty"? Or do we desire them for the sake of the Body?

I haven't seen anyone on this thread saying anything different from that, even if the wording has caused misunderstanding for some.

in Him

Jeannette

Hi Annie, you left out verses 4-6. How come?

"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:"

How come?

I left it out because I didn't want to come against you saying that Paul was praising them - He was praising GOD for the Grace given them and that they were in everything enriched by Him in those things, BY the Apostle and whomever else taught them and that they were Saved.

He then goes on to do both - exhort - correct - exhort - correct and exhort. Amazing how he left chpt 5 until chpt 5.

That one - I thought - would be the first to be addressed - but I'm not Paul - fer shur!

Also Annie, if I could ask you this:

What do you hope to accomplish by this discussion? As I had asked before, what is the point for this thread, as you see it?

Thanks.

Because I love His Word. That's about it Brother. All of it blesses. Accomplish? Only what His Word can accomplish in us.

Thanks!!!

His Love for what He Loves.

God Bless!

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi again Annie,

So Annie, you choosen to talk about a subject that is very controversial at the moment, in a public forum that is viewed in different parts of the world, because you love God's word?

Did I understand you correctly?

Annie wrote:
Because I love His Word. That's about it Brother. All of it blesses. Accomplish? Only what His Word can accomplish in us.

Thanks!!!

His Love for what He Loves.

God Bless!

Yes, I hope you understand.

The "gifts" are world wide - a from the same Bible topic. Much unlike some teachings of late.

And brother, if the topic is "controversial" --- but has been since at least Corinth --- then let's look at what His Word says in context together. No different than any other topic that concerns all His saints, everywhere.

LORD Bless!

ChrisJD wrote:
Also Annie, if I could ask you this:

What do you hope to accomplish by this discussion? As I had asked before, what is the point for this thread, as you see it?

Thanks.

in Him

Jeannette

This is truly a pity that you men have decided not to listen to a plea from a sister for the Body to be One in His Love and that HE would be allowed to Increase by our decreasing.

That's all this was "about".

MrBillPro wrote:

Chris, read my signature line and it will explain that "NO ONE" understands its all perfectly, so sometimes rather we want to believe it or not it becomes opinions. I am sure we all try our best in good faith to explain things the best we can as to what we believe the Spirit of truth speaks to us, but even explaining it the best we can has to end up in a happy medium of opinion and truth, because even God tells us we will never totally understand it all. We should at some point learn to humble ourselves and not necessarily admit defeat because this should not be like a competition but meet each other half way if at all possible, because if we can't possibly totally understand it all anyway "God said that I did not", we should use this as a form of teaching even ourselves through others opinions and beliefs and with an open mind of understanding. Sometimes it's better here to just drop out of some discussions "trust me" than let the discussion get carried away to were it might cause some animosity, because if that happens it becomes a no win situation anyway, because at that point it doesn't matter who is right or wrong it does not Glorify God so we all lose even God.

I'm bewildered even by the use of the word "controversy" here, and want to ask, "[i]What[/i] controversy?".

Different ways of looking at things certainly - why not, because we are all different! But that isn't controversy.

I did wonder if some would take up the only major cause of controversy re spiritual gifts, by bringing up the cessationist viewpoint. But discussing, or even arguing, abot that aspect need not be destructive in itself.

But we haven't even had that controversy on this thread (or not so's you'd notice). A few misunderstandings can be ironed out if we are willing to dialogue instead of accuse!

in Him

Jeannette

psalm1 wrote:
I also apologize for any harm to my brethren....
My points are just "points"
And i dont know how in the world my size 12 shoe fits completely in my mouth but ....it does!

David

I get the impression that you do have "an honest and good heart". That makes all the difference in the world.

Don't beat yourself up about a bit of misunderstanding and minor disagreement, or not putting things as well as maybe you could have.

As Bill says, we all do it.

Blessings

Jeannette

Jeannette, David apologized in a very kind PM.

Just wanted you to know.

My Outlook Express has been hit by something so I can't Send and all emails received/saved are blank. I did manage to put one in My Documents though before they went blank.
Would appreciate prayer for that and for the after affects of a major 6 month long spiritual attack.
After the tsunami type prayer. Thanks!

Discerning of spirits mixed with 'mercy' has the potential to wipe one out. Others have discussed that here.
Just one more lesson on 'gifts' and their misuse in the naive.

PRAY ONE FOR ANOTHER - this type stuff is only the beginning of such phenomena. Wise as serpents and harmless as doves is a hard one.

LOVE HIM 1st !!!

The Word of God is complete and everything you ask has been covered Chris.

Have a nice Sunday.

ChrisJD wrote:
Everyone,

I would like to share something here.

Annie said,

"If we stop our autonomous way of thinking and living - as He walked totally dependent on the Father for every word, thought and deed - then it won't be "gifts" that we'll be looking for, but just to obey the Father in whatever He would have us to do, think or say and "gifts" are just part of Him living His life through us."

So does this not imply that people who do desire and seek after gifts are not following God, or are somehow less spiritual than others, or that that could be?

How is this different than those, who in chapter one said

'we follow Christ'?

Was it not implied by them then that everyone else did not follow Christ?

Is that not implied here?

in Him

Jeannette

HE_Reigns wrote:
Jeannette, David apologized in a very kind PM.

Just wanted you to know.

My Outlook Express has been hit by something so I can't Send and all emails received/saved are blank. I did manage to put one in My Documents though before they went blank.

There's a way of correcting some faults by system restore, (think that's what it's called) but I can't remember how, or if it's likely to help with this. The problem is if you reinstall Outlook Express you will probably lose all the emails already there. That's one reason I use Yahoo, it doesn't depend on my computer but can be accessed from anywhere.

Any computer experts out there?

Would appreciate prayer for that and for the after affects of a major 6 month long spiritual attack.
After the tsunami type prayer. Thanks!

Discerning of spirits mixed with 'mercy' has the potential to wipe one out. Others have discussed that here.

Just one more lesson on 'gifts' and their misuse in the naive.

PRAY ONE FOR ANOTHER - this type stuff is only the beginning of such phenomena. Wise as serpents and harmless as doves is a hard one.

LOVE HIM 1st !!!

I tried Outlook Express Help, and it showed this:

Of course, you may not be able to contact your ISP because OE doesn't work, but it may help.

This is the answer I got to the nearest option
on Help (the exact problem wasn't shown)

[u]"I can connect to my ISP, but I can't send or receive e-mail."[/u]

"Check your e-mail account settings

On the Tools menu, click Accounts.
Select the e-mail account, and then click Properties.
On the Servers, Connection, and Advanced tabs, check the settings against those given to you by your Internet service provider (ISP).
If your settings match the ISP information, contact your ISP to verify that you have the correct information and that the ISP servers are operating correctly. Also, make sure your ISP server supports PPP, SMTP, and POP3 or IMAP protocols.

Did this fix the problem?

Yes. Close the troubleshooter.

[color=000066][u]No. I want to contact my ISP."[/u][/color]

Hope that helps

Jeannette

I Cor 1
12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?

Hi ChrisJD,

I want to take this real slow and see where we can get to. You said

people who do desire and seek after gifts are not following God

The way you wrote your question, implies there is something wrong with being able to recognise error, and that those who did, in pointing to Christ, were at fault. But, I accept that Paul found them all at fault, possibly reducing Christ to an equally human teacher as the others. In these circumstances, it took a word from Paul to help them [i]all[/i] see the bigger picture. And clearly, he was in favour of the operation of the gifts of the Spirit [i]by the Corinthians[/i]. Not everyone's spiritual gift is for the church meeting, though. It may function more obviously during some other part of the week.

Is that not implied here?

When Jesus distributed to the servants in His parable, they were [i]expected[/i] to seek increase. This was basic to God's promises of worldly prosperity associated with the keeping of the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, the increase is spiritual. Paul's exhortation in Ephesians 5 amounts to 'be being [continuously] filled with the Spirit' (v 18), the idea being that the fuller one is of the Spirit, the more one is able to walk worthy of the vocation to which one has been called.

Your query brings to mind the saying (which God might have inspired at some past time) that 'if one wants to get something done, ask a busy man to do it'. How much more in the things of God, do we need to be firing on all cylinders and taking on fuel at the same time?

Thank you Jeannette, all is restored - plus some.

I could receive, but couldn't send.
THANKS!
__________________________________________

Quote Dorcas: "How much more in the things of God, do we need to be firing on all cylinders and taking on fuel at the same time?"

Amen.

Sis, one thing I'm learning more than ever is - the enemy knows we need that "time" alone with HIM for this - so the enemy will send overload situations into your life to keep you VERY BUSY.

Hmmm !

When you're running on fumes - look out. :-(

No matter how long we are saved - the enemy is still wiser than us. We're constantly learning his tactics - if we're wise enough to know that we don't know everything. ha - trying to laugh.

Even if you shut your ringer off on your phone - have your email shut down - there's always another way that he can wear out the saints.

Wise as serpents and harmless as doves IS tough - but all the more to learn, the weapons of our warfare is not carnal.

GOD Bless!

Annie said

Sis, one thing I'm learning more than ever is - the enemy knows we need that "time" alone with HIM for this - so the enemy will send overload situations into your life to keep you VERY BUSY.

Hmmm !

When you're running on fumes - look out.

I remember years ago that it came to scientific analysis, that computer programmers and those working with computers, usually had two issues to contend with. One was that time ran away from them as they got such a buzz out of their 'work'. The other was, that no computer ever answered back, and it was a refuge from past or present emotional strains, to get later and later for dinner at home.

So meanwhile, I'd like to apologise to anyone who's choking here.

No Sis - I said, "one thing [b]I'm[/b] learning.

That went along with my prayer request I posted to Jeannette.

I'm learning - but I feel - too slowly.

I appreciated your post, sincerely.

Thank you for it. It spoke to me.

Brother, take time to look UP at "the sky". HE's up there and I was grateful when you added "the cosmos" to that particular thread. It helped me personally and That's the Truth.

You've said nothing "evil" in my eyes - it was just questioning why I would start such a thread, when there are so many other threads on so many other topics.

I couldn't understand why this doctrinal issue would offend anyone and from what I hear - it's done just the opposite - because we want to be The properly functioning "Body" and One - as HE intended us to be.

No where in this thread did I come anywhere near saying that we are not to desire to be used as He was on this earth. That includes as many gifts as He sees fit to use us in -- "severely as He wills".

I think we just need to read each other's posts a little more carefully or with less suspicion.

Love was Paul's main message through-out this discussion and I like your signature.

GOD Bless you Brother.
Keep Looking Up. :-)

Hi ChrisJD,

I'll try to put something together here, which may help express any division Annie may have had in mind at the beginning of the thread. There (p1) she had said:

To say it directly - once our eyes are on "the gift", we'll go off.

Any Saint, that has gotten their eyes off of themselves - dying to self - can potentially be used in all of the above, as He Wills - because they will be on this earth, just as He was. He lowered Himself and took our form. Dependent on The Father to direct His every thought, word and action.

We won't be looking to see if we are being used in a gift - nor take notice when we are - we'll just "walk in Him" and the works that He did, any Saint may do also - to the degree that we decrease so that He will increase - seeking His Glory and His Will only and to live for others only, as He did.

To look at oneself for what gifts we are being used in is Not From Him.

To desire to be like Jesus. To be transformed into His Image. To have His Mind. To be full of Truth and nothing but His Truth - that is our goal - not "gifts" - but to be like Him.

As I understand it, even from Geraldine over here in a different city, the fashion for men calling themselves 'Prophet' or 'Apostle', is what Annie was resisting. I do see it is possible to construe, from a purely biblical perspective, that she was [i]actually saying[/i] not even to do what Paul exhorts here:

1 Corinthians 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [i]gifts[/i], but rather that ye may prophesy.

I believe the Greek is better translated as the [i]graces[/i] [charismata], (but of course, that [i]does[/i] sound a bit Greek mythological) or, simply 'the spirituals' - in much the same way as 'the heavenly places' can be translated 'the heavenlies' (Eph 1 and 2).

I hope Annie will come in here and say if I've gathered that distinction she was making, where men finding themselves just slightly used in a gift, have made it into a big carnal label by which to lord it over their flocks in a most unChristlike way. Or, if I have also misunderstood... I'm sure she'll say.

Chris, can I ask.... how do you read 1 Corinthians 14:1?

How would you interpret it to your own heart, or to ours sharing here?

Hello ChrisJD,

Good reply, bro. It struck straight home to something deeper and rather unexpectedly topical for me. Thank you.

:-)

dorcas wrote:

Hi ChrisJD,

I'll try to put something together here, which may help express any division Annie may have had in mind at the beginning of the thread. There (p1) she had said:

To say it directly - once our eyes are on "the gift", we'll go off.

Any Saint, that has gotten their eyes off of themselves - dying to self - can potentially be used in all of the above, as He Wills - because they will be on this earth, just as He was. He lowered Himself and took our form. Dependent on The Father to direct His every thought, word and action.

We won't be looking to see if we are being used in a gift - nor take notice when we are - we'll just "walk in Him" and the works that He did, any Saint may do also - to the degree that we decrease so that He will increase - seeking His Glory and His Will only and to live for others only, as He did.

To look at oneself for what gifts we are being used in is Not From Him.

To desire to be like Jesus. To be transformed into His Image. To have His Mind. To be full of Truth and nothing but His Truth - that is our goal - not "gifts" - but to be like Him.

I believe this was an attempt to make Christ the focus of our attention, rather than the gift [i]per se[/i].

I hope Annie will come in here and say if I've gathered that distinction she was making, where men finding themselves just slightly used in a gift, have made it into a big carnal label by which to lord it over their flocks in a most unChristlike way. Or, if I have also misunderstood... I'm sure she'll say.

I suppose Sis, that the message of Paul would be that Agape/LOVE is the only way to "die to [b]self[/b]" (if that phrase is exceptable) - even if one sees no gifts in their lives.

Thanks!!!

[b]Is Jesus Enough? [/b]
by Chip Brogden

"After they had eaten, Jesus asked Simon Peter, 'Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these other things?'" (John 21:15).

If Jesus was all you had, would Jesus be enough for you? Many precious believers are in love with the things of the Lord, but they are not in love with the Lord Himself. Many Christian workers and ministers are in love with the Lord's work. Almost without realizing it, the work of the Lord becomes more important than the Lord of the work.

There are prophets and teachers who hold words from God in higher esteem than the God Who speaks the words they attribute as being from Him. People seek these words and teachings. The more they receive, the more they want. Before one word is digested they are craving another. They are seeking "things" - words, prophecies, teachings, visions, dreams - but they are not seeking the Lord Himself.

Is Jesus enough?

When the saints gather together most of the activity is focused on "one another". This is important, but it is not the most important thing. Fellowship is good: but is Jesus enough? Gatherings are good: but is Jesus enough? Meetings are good: but is Jesus enough? Special speakers and special music are good: but is Jesus enough?

Even with praise and worship it is possible to sing "about" Jesus and not truly worship Jesus. With preaching and teaching it is possible to talk "about" Jesus and not truly meet Jesus in what is shared. In prayer it is possible to talk "about" our needs and never actually commune with Jesus Himself.

Among Christians I have discovered something. There is Jesus, and then there are all the things ABOUT Jesus that are NOT Jesus. Jesus Himself occupies only a small portion of what is said and done in Christian circles. Most of what is said and done is merely ABOUT Jesus, but it is NOT Jesus.

I have learned that stress, strife, disillusionment, dissatisfaction, bitterness, anger, hurt, misunderstanding, and confusion comes from everything said and done by religious people ABOUT the Lord, and IN THE NAME of the Lord, that does not, in fact, have anything to do with Jesus Himself.

How much of your focus is directed to the things of God, and not to God Himself? How much of your discussion centers on things about Jesus, and not Jesus Himself?

Just look around. This brother is focused on end-time events, and that sister is devoted to inner healing. This brother is primarily concerned with prophetic things, while another sister is keenly interested in spiritual warfare. That brother is deeply involved with theological discussions, while that sister is in love with Christian music. One movement emphasizes this particular thing, and another group stands for another thing.

There may be diversities of gifts and callings. There may be various and sundry things to be involved with. There may be many topics to study and discuss. Many things compete for our time, attention, affection, energy, and money.

But there is only one Lord Jesus.

Just as some people cannot see the forest for the trees, I believe most sinners cannot see Jesus for the Christians. And I believe most Christians cannot see Jesus for the "church".

Is Jesus enough?

Whenever I am ministering to pastors, whatever they think their calling is, I always have them turn to Mark 3:14:

"And he ordained twelve, that they should BE WITH HIM, and that He might send them forth to preach."

You are called to be with Jesus. That is your calling. That is the primary thing, the highest ministry. Going forth to preach or do anything else is of secondary importance. We should be with Jesus; after that, He might send us forth to preach. But before Jesus said, "Go into all the world" He said, "Be with Me."

The call of the Lord is not more important than the Lord of the call. The work of the Lord must not replace the Lord of the work. No amount of ministering FOR the Lord will make up for a lack of ministering TO the Lord. And knowing the Word of God does not necessarily mean that we know the God of the Word.

Everyone wants to go and do something for God, but few people are willing to stay and do "nothing" for Him.

Jesus asked Peter, "Am I enough for You? Do you love Me more than everything else? Do you love Me more than you love the things about Me?"

A few weeks later, when Peter stood with John before the religious rulers to explain the healing of a man who had never walked, "...they marveled; and they took knowledge of [Peter and John], that THEY HAD BEEN WITH JESUS" (Acts 4:13b).

If we will be with Jesus, then Jesus will be with us.

The reason the New Testament church had power was not because they spoke in tongues, or held meetings in their living rooms, or had a certain system for planting churches. The secret was they had been with Jesus.

But some Christians are more in love with methods and ministries than they are in love with the Man.

The prophets and teachers in the church of Antioch were gathered together: not to have a house church conference, not to begin a new ministry, not to discuss the latest prophetic word or the newest teaching, not to exchange ideas on how to grow the church, not to fellowship, not to share a meal, not to minister to one another. But "as they ministered TO THE LORD, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said..." (Acts 13:2a).

Paul and his fellow workers had many souls to save, many disciples to make, many churches to plant, many places to visit, many messages to deliver, many letters to write. There were many needs to be met, many doors of opportunity before them.

But the work was suspended. Activity ceased. Ministry came to a standstill. Fellowship and food were forgotten. The prophets were there, but the prophets did not prophesy. The teachers were there, but the teachers did not teach.

Instead, they ministered to the Lord. The focus shifted from horizontal to vertical. The emphasis was directed away from man and man's needs, and onto the Lord and His Need. They were busy being with Jesus. They were at His feet.

So when the Holy Ghost finally spoke, they were ready to go forth. Thus began the first missionary journey of Paul.

When apostles love church planting and mission work more than Jesus, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

When prophets love their prophecies, dreams, and visions more than they love Jesus, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

When evangelists love traveling, preaching, and holding meetings more than they love Jesus, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

When pastors love their church services and building programs more than they love Jesus, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

When teachers love their teachings more than they love Jesus, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

When preachers love their preaching more than they love Jesus, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

When ministers love their ministry more than they love Jesus, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

When musicians love their music more than they love Jesus, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

When writers love their writings more than they love Jesus, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

And when the simplest disciples grow tired of "just" being with Jesus, and begin to long for something bigger, something better, something greater, something more powerful, something other than what they have in Jesus already, then they are saying that Jesus is not enough.

If Jesus was all you had, would Jesus be enough for you? Or do you have to have all the "trappings" of Christianity, all the bells and whistles, all the toys and trinkets?

Make no mistake: there is no life in the things that are ABOUT Jesus. There is life only in Jesus Himself.

May I speak candidly? If you are dissatisfied and disappointed with your Christian walk today, it is only because of one thing: Jesus is not enough for you. Somewhere along the line, something else became more important than Jesus. Maybe you have become focused on the things ABOUT Jesus that are NOT Jesus.

There is only one solution. You do not need more of the Lord, because He has already given Himself completely to you already. You just need less of everything else.

Remember.

Remember what it was like to hear His Voice, to be so filled with passion and love for Him, that you wanted nothing more than to sit at His feet, and hear His Word.

Remember when you were so infatuated with Him that you did not want to do anything else.

Remember what it was like to just be with Jesus.

Go back to when Jesus first called you to be with Him.

Go back to the time when all you had was Him.

Go back to the time before you were planting churches, speaking prophetic words, preaching to the unsaved, pastoring the congregation, teaching the people, or leading worship.

Go back to the time when there was no work, no ministry, no vision, no special calling - except Jesus calling you to be with Him.

Remember when you said, "He's all I need!"

So what happened?

I pray the Lord will draw us after Himself and make us thoroughly sick and tired of things - especially the things that are ABOUT Him, but are NOT Him.

God so loved the world that He gave His Only Son, Jesus.

Well... is Jesus enough?

[color=CC3333]1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. [/color]