A super highway being built quietly from Mexico to Canada unto the union of nations.

Now I don't know a whole lot about politics and what not. But, I have been hearing about this NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) superhighway for a while. I wasn't sure about it if it were a conspiracy or not but now it is being openly talked about on the news like Lou Dobb's and Glenn Beck's show's. From what I have heard it has been denied by many politician's as crazy and yet is now already being built in Texas. The story is that Bush is making secret deals with the elite of Canada and Mexico to build this trade freeqay and that is why the government is not so worried about immigration because they want to unite anyways. Even with one currency the "Amero". They want to be like the European Union and unite as they did. And, for all the new world order buff's this would be another step toward one world government. Also in the plans is a national id card that will even have a radio wave frequency chip. This card will in turn take away our Constitutional privacies ect due to an overriding of the Constitution because of "terrorist threat".

Some short video clips on this subject:

"NAFTA superhighway"
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBmFrYWPoG8]click here[/url]

"North American Union"
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3xU0EA&feature=related]click here[/url]

"Amero currency"
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFUo92FVCG8&feature=related]click here[/url]

p.s. if anyone knows of better video clips, documentaries, or articles that are really good on this subject please let me know.

I think that your first impression may be correct. I think that this may be a spoof. I would have no idea how in this government ( as the goeverment in whole, not one particular party or platform) would be able to keep anything this big a secret.

Who knows though. Could be true. Fun topic to think about.

Well I used to think it could be a spoof before it was talked about as fact on mainline news channel and by reputable men. Even Ron Paul the Presidential candidate is speaking against it, and it is already being built in Texas.

How could the government keep something so big so secret. Control of media, secret meetings, intrigue like the anti Christ in Daniel, do it fast before anyone notices, laugh it off when the topic is brought up, an ignorant, uneducated, distracted people, like all the governments have done it throughout history, having meetings with hidden motives, holding back information with security excuses like terrorism.

Hi davidt...

As a resident of Texas, I can say that this "superhighway" is not part of some elaborate "conspiracy theory" to create any sort of anti-Christ union in North America. It is simply a very wide, well-maintained, ten lane highway that would extend north to south (from Mexico to Canada) and then from east to west. In other words, it is just a big highway -- like many of those found around major cities in the United States. It would actually be a toll road, but it wouldn't have many traffic obstructions like the two-lane major interstates in the US.

While I'm not a fan of NAFTA (or the European Union), the fact remains that "free trade" has existed since the days of the Roman Empire. In fact, Rome built its famous "Roman Roads" as a means of trade. Columbus sought passage to the East via the West in order to find a safer trade route.

We need to be very wary of "conspiracy theories," "urban legends," and "old wives tales." This highway is not a "secret." The possibility of a "10-lane super tollway" has been discussed publicly in Texas for years -- even before Bill Clinton signed NAFTA. The proposed road would benefit everyone involved, because it would provide safe passage for big trucks and trade vehicles (and ease the travel by on regular highways and interstates). I actually was assigned to write a paper about it as a freshman in college. Even [url=http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2006/tst103006.htm]Ron Paul's column[/url] begins by stating that most Texans are aware of this highway.

The only difference between this 10-lane "superhighway" and the current two-lane US interstates will be the size of the road and the cost to drive on it. Why is Ron Paul opposed to this? I think that it probably has less to do with a "conspiracy theory" and more to do with the district in Texas that he represents (that is NOT located along the proposed superhighway). The construction of a "superhighway" would draw truckers and drivers away from the businesses found on highways and interstates located in his district.

:-)

Hi Chris,

as it says just a post before you Robert Pastor vice chair of the CFR wants a North American Union. So there is enough info here to be weary of. I agree with you that we should be careful of listening to false rumors. Yet, we should also expect the worst in the last days. And, not only that last days but all through history government's have dooped the people through intrigue and so we should not expect any difference. I think that in the US we have this feeling that we are the nation of God and could never do such things as the conspiricist's say but that is just not true its not even just the conspiricists saying it any more. Sure we the heroe's stopped Germany and Vietnam and so on but it doesn't take long for a generation of politics to go wrong. From what I hear there are many men in power with much money who arent even elected politicians like David Rockefeller and such. And yeah I guess texas knows but does anybody else?

Dr. Robert Pastor, vice chair of the Council on Foreign Relations Task Force on North America, had just appeared before a panel of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations -- to call for erasing all U.S. borders and a merger of the United States, Mexico and Canada in a North American union stretching from Prudhoe Bay to Guatemala.

Hello davidt, this is very important subject. Thanks for raising it. I mean not the highway subject as a goal, but seeing the facts of the preparations of the nations against the Holy One of Israel, and preparing the path of the ANTI-Christ. I will post more about that later, for now I will answer to your request:

davidt wrote:
p.s. if anyone knows of better video clips, documentaries, or articles that are really good on this subject please let me know.

Check [url=http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-8766629238641460425&subtitle=on&autoPlay=true]this[/url] or you can download it with a better quality from [url=http://ia351420.us.archive.org/2/items/EndgamE.the.movie/ENDGAME-640x360-850k.wmv]here.[/url]

I earnestly hope that this thread will not turn into political debate, but as a watch of the world events in the light of the Scriptures.

to add to that I just saw a video where Vicente Fox the former President of Mexico desire's a North American Union and currency:

1.
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=979940200515820368&q=north+american+union+hugo&total=6&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1]click here[/url]

2.
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4671718789660772073]click here[/url]

Hi HE_Reigns...

I don't know that much about Pat Buchanan, except that he ran for President. I don't live in Texas neither. Is he a Conspiracy Theorist ?

However, I didn't write about Pat Buchanan. I wrote in regard to the notion that this highway is a part of some secret government project. This is simply untrue. If I knew enough about it to write an assigned paper as a freshman in college, then I imagine that quite a few people know enough about it to disregard the notion that this is a "secret."

The proposed "superhighway" is just a big toll way. Most of the opponents are the same individuals and groups who oppose NAFTA. I don't like NAFTA, but I realize that it is just a poorly created trade treaty. This 10-lane toll highway is simply meant to provide a safe, fast passage for trucks going north to south (and vice versa) and east to west (and vice versa).

It is not a part of some conspiracy to provide roads for a one world government in North America. Anyone driving on this road will still be required to submit to the current state and federal transportation laws (including the 100 mile checkpoints, weigh stations, and speed limits, etc...). Anyone willing to pay the money to drive will be allowed to use the road (which will bypass traffic-congested areas like San Antonio, Austin, Waco, Dallas, Houston, etc...).

I am actually glad that such a road will be built. If you have ever driven from San Antonio to Dallas (especially between Austin and Waco) -- you will realize how much time is spent sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic. The interstates in Texas are hardly adequate for typical commuter traffic. It is entirely inadequate with the influx of traffic coming from NAFTA trucks. Hopefully, this proposed 10 lane toll road will ease the congestion and allow commuters to have faster and safer access between cities.

:-)

*EDIT:
- In regard to the "Amero" coin mentioned in the first thread, I provided [url=http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/amero.asp]this link[/url] when this was discussed some time ago. There is a coin called the "Amero." However, it was just a design created by an artist named Daniel Carr. A radio talk show host who wasn't completely informed (Hal Turner) made the mistake of reporting about the "Amero coin" story as if it were true.

davidt wrote:
They want to be like the European Union and unite as they did. And, for all the new world order buff's this would be another step toward one world government. Also in the plans is a national id card that will even have a radio wave frequency chip. This card will in turn take away our Constitutional privacies ect due to an overriding of the Constitution because of "terrorist threat".

I would like to comment on this, as an Europe citizen and seeing things from this perspective here.

Few months ago my ID card expired, and I needed to go and applicate for new one.
There is already a new system established for ID Cards and Passports and that is that they are taking for you a [b]biometric[/b] information.

They are taking a digital picture from you, you sign on a scanner with digital pen, fingerprint on a scanner stored digitally etc

Now, mine was for ID Card, but the procedure for Passport is the same.

While I was waiting for the application procedure , I imagined a picture how one day people one day by one will bow literally before the image of the ANTIChrist. It will be 'peace and safety' just as now. Everything going normal. Everything for the good of humanity. But, 'then sudden destruction cometh upon them'.

As we were talking in our fellowship with the brothers, I was asked to make a research about the new Biometric passports. I sat and start searching.

I was stunned with the information that I read.

In my country this new system is from [b]April 2007[/b], it went unnoticed that actually 'The passport's critical information is stored on a tiny [b]RFID computer chip[/b]'. That means every biometric information is stored into that chip.

It was requirement from the European Union, that we [b]MUST[/b] to induct this new system, if we want to travel. Now we have deadline and every passport MUST be changed the new ones.

As I continued the research I found that EVERY European country is inducting this system. Actually all in process of doing this, some has began earlier some later, but all are in process and all have deadlines.

Now, I started to search how everything came to be.

9/11 [b]2001[/b] - I will leave this date as it is.

[b]2003[/b] - There is an initiative by [url=http://www.icao.int/]International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)[/url] for Biometric Passports. They are making the standardization.

This initiative, 'slowly' but surely, is starting it's development and realization, with the main excuse - 'terrorists'. 'Taking control' over 'terrorists'. 'Defending' from 'terrorists' 'Security' etc.

All this is speed it up by USA, saying to EU that if they want to come to USA without VISA, they need to have Biometric Passports.

Their deadline was [b]October 2004[/b] but this is prolonged.

Right now all EU countries are introducing this new system.

This can be seen here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport

Many of them has started since [b]2005[/b] or [b]2006[/b].

Parallel with it, in the USA this process is also going on.

http://www.biometrics.org/

Many other countries are starting with this new system, simply because there is a deadline that if you want to travel in USA, you must have Biometric Passport. People are silent. And that is amazing, actually they will bow before this new world order.

Now, what is next?

We already can see how someone hacked or cloned the passports.

Probably it's a matter of time, when all this, ID cards, passports and the other things will be made 'all in one'.

I am following the development of the verichip six or seven years now. Now we have already chips in the passports. What will be the next? And how? Will this be the mark of the beast?

I cannot say, maybe, but I am called to WATCH. There are warning upon warning in the bible, that watch over what is going on in the world. It is said that great delusion will come. Many will be deluded.

Read carefully [b]Genesis 11:1-7[/b].

Then open the official site of the UNITED NATIONS.

And let the Spirit talk to your heart.

They have [url=http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/]Millennium Development Goals[/url], 'all by the target date of 2015'

Worth seeing those goals.

One language. Internet. Organizations. Everything is crying loud what is going on.

Loud speaking official sites like this:

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/who-are-we.html
http://www.ncccusa.org/
http://www.unity.org/
http://www.uua.org/

Or this:

http://www.templeofunderstanding.org/newSite/whatWeDo/default.php

One quote: "the TOU is an active player in the NGO community working on the inside of the United Nations"

Many christians are just ignoramus. They don't want to hear about these things, because this earth is too much good. We need detachment from this earth, and attachment for the one which comes.

Psalm 2 is crying aloud:

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[b]Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. [/b]
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
[b]Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. [/b]

Compare this with [b]Genesis 11:1-7[/b] Daniel 7 :23-28, Revelation 13.

We know that Antichrist is imitating in everything our Lord. Imagine that our Lord to come on this earth, preparation of years was needed. And when times was fulfilled...He came. How much more the Antichrist will need time to prepare his way to reign these years which will be allowed to him. If we think that he will come without preparation and suddenly, we are in great delusion.

These things are not about America or highway or politics, these things are the accuser of our souls, against our the Kingdom of our King. He hates the Lord's disciples, that's there will be persecution as never before.

2Th 2:8 [b]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:[/b]

This came to be a long post, but I wanted to share these things.

May the Lord prepare us for the things coming.

Because: 'shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.'

And again and again Christ saying to us

Mat 24:25 [b]Behold, I have told you before.[/b]

Mat 24:32 [b]Now learn a parable of the fig tree; [/b]When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:42 [b]Watch therefore:[/b] for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:44 [b]Therefore be ye also ready:[/b] for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

[b]1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [/b]

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi davidt...

As a resident of Texas, I can say that this "superhighway" is not part of some elaborate "conspiracy theory" to create any sort of anti-Christ union in North America. It is simply a very wide, well-maintained, ten lane highway that would extend north to south (from Mexico to Canada) and then from east to west. In other words, it is just a big highway -- like many of those found around major cities in the United States. It would actually be a toll road, but it wouldn't have many traffic obstructions like the two-lane major interstates in the US.

While I'm not a fan of NAFTA (or the European Union), the fact remains that "free trade" has existed since the days of the Roman Empire. In fact, Rome built its famous "Roman Roads" as a means of trade. Columbus sought passage to the East via the West in order to find a safer trade route.

We need to be very wary of "conspiracy theories," "urban legends," and "old wives tales." This highway is not a "secret." The possibility of a "10-lane super tollway" has been discussed publicly in Texas for years -- even before Bill Clinton signed NAFTA. The proposed road would benefit everyone involved, because it would provide safe passage for big trucks and trade vehicles (and ease the travel by on regular highways and interstates). I actually was assigned to write a paper about it as a freshman in college. Even [url=http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2006/tst103006.htm]Ron Paul's column[/url] begins by stating that most Texans are aware of this highway.

The only difference between this 10-lane "superhighway" and the current two-lane US interstates will be the size of the road and the cost to drive on it. Why is Ron Paul opposed to this? I think that it probably has less to do with a "conspiracy theory" and more to do with the district in Texas that he represents (that is NOT located along the proposed superhighway). The construction of a "superhighway" would draw truckers and drivers away from the businesses found on highways and interstates located in his district.

:-)

Chris, I have seen you commenting in this manner many times. I must tell you and warn you one thing:

Be careful, much careful that your passion about your earthly country, not to blind you and not be able to see some more important things which the wicked one can use for his purposes. Be careful defending your own cause, not to drag others with you in fear of examining things saying them that these are [i]"urban legends," and "old wives tales." [/i]and also in false security that nothing happens and everything is 'theory' and we should believe just officials. Be much careful.

And also be careful and watchful and sensitive to the Holy Spirit, the time of when you need to stop calling some of the facts 'theories'. Be careful very much. We are not living a dream. We are in reality. Be watchful to see the facts. Your passion for your earthly country is more than obviously that has unable you to see something that must be seen as a man that the Spirit of God is in you. It is dangerous and risky. Be careful brother. You are in 'in a strange country', but 'look for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.'

Kire

Hi Kire…

Chris, I have seen you commenting in this manner many times. I must tell you and warn you one thing:

Be careful, much careful that your passion about your earthly country, not to blind you and not be able to see some more important things which the wicked one can use for his purposes. Be careful defending your own cause, not to drag others with you in fear of examining things saying them that these are "urban legends," and "old wives tales." and also in false security that nothing happens and everything is 'theory' and we should believe just officials. Be much careful.

And also be careful and watchful and sensitive to the Holy Spirit, the time of when you need to stop calling some of the facts 'theories'. Be careful very much. We are not living a dream. We are in reality. Be watchful to see the facts. Your passion for your earthly country is more than obviously that has unable you to see something that must be seen as a man that the Spirit of God is in you. It is dangerous and risky. Be careful brother. You are in 'in a strange country', but 'look for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.'

Kire

Thank you for your kind words of warning. But let me clarify this: I don’t have a “passion” about my earthly country. I have no “cause” or ego to be bruised in this matter. I am simply disappointed when believers make comments or create threads concerning things in which they might not fully understand or have researched the nature of the issue. In regard to this issue, we had a brother who was “hearing” things about secret agreements to “unite” the three North American nations into a pseudo one-continent government. This “superhighway” (along with the already debunked “Amero” coin) is presented as “evidence” in this matter. In addition, we were informed about a national id card that would “take away our Constitutional privacies.”

If these things were actually based upon FACT, then I wouldn’t attempt to contradict them. However, these things are not. The secret “superhighway” is simply a proposed 10-lane toll road. The “Amero” was simply a personal coin designed and sold by an artist. The national identification card is simply a card meant to replace your social security card and would be used to verify your legal residence (and identify illegal immigrants -- and not to “take away our Constitutional privacy”). There isn’t any evidence whatsoever about secret meetings between Canada, Mexico and the United States to unify into a single nation or government (they wouldn’t be “secret” meetings if people knew about them, would they?).

If I created a thread to discuss a possible connection between underground nuclear testing and the tsunami of 2004, wouldn’t it be my responsibility to present FACTS to validate my hypothesis? Of course! Yet so many conspiracy theories go unchecked. Why? Perhaps it is because we KNOW that the end is coming. As brother davidt later stated, “[i] we should also expect the worst in the last days[/i].” We are often quite susceptible to those things that tend to verify what we are convinced will occur. I know believers who cause quite a bit of damage because they proclaim unchecked conspiracy theories as a means to enhance their messages. The people of this world are often quite aware of the affairs of this world. It can hinder a work of God when someone falsely presents such ideas as “fact” that is actually speculation, hearsay or a mere conspiracy theory.

As you have reminded me, these sorts of questions come down to our “facts.” Yes, we should be careful about labeling “facts” as “theories.” However, we should be just as careful (and yes, [i]prayerful[/i]) about labeling “theories” as “fact.” If we are going to proclaim something, we should be prepared to present evidence to validate our proclamation. If what we introduce is TRUTH, then we shouldn’t fear someone questioning our information.

So then, I would warn others too. Be careful…very careful…that our statements about government (including individuals working in the government) are based upon truth. Otherwise, our statements could find us bearing false witness against our neighbor.

:-(

Hi Chris,

in response I would just like to say that I did say "hearing" intentionally. I wrote in the beginning that I am not an expert. I was not affirmitively stating things as hard fact. But I could not just throw a lot of facts I have heard to the wayside. I was writing to get more clarity from other's and to sharpen my understanding and just to bring it up since it is important.

"Secret super highway", No one knew about it except maybe for Texas since that it where they started building it.

"Amero", I didn't know that thanks for telling me that is why I posted, but I do know from the past President of Mexico as I posted earlier that he does want one currency in time.

"ID card", no response at this time.

"Secret Meetings", I was speaking of the SPP that barely anyone knows about.

"Unchecked conspiracies", as I said earlier I am just studying these things and am bringing it up for the purpose of learning yet there are some things that seem clearly factual.

"Christians easily deceived because we are in the end times and they think everything is bad", I only brought that up in response to the general majority that is way to optimistic toward our country that says in God we trust.

p.s. did you watch any of those video clips that I posted?

Hello davidt, this is very important subject. Thanks for raising it. I mean not the highway subject as a goal, but seeing the facts of the preparations of the nations against the Holy One of Israel, and preparing the path of the ANTI-Christ. I will post more about that later, for now I will answer to your request:

Hello Tears of joy,

I think that film you showed me was Freedom to Fascism. I have seen it. It was one of the first videos I have seen. It is highly instructive.

davidt wrote:
Hello Tears of joy,

I think that film you showed me was Freedom to Fascism. I have seen it. It was one of the first videos I have seen. It is highly instructive.

Hello David, not it's not that one, I haven't heard of this film. Check the links again that I gave in my first post.

Thats how I look at all this "end time" stuff, pure foolishness.

Hello Compliments, your mindset (I am not commenting the specific things) reminds me of what Peter wrote in his second letter:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

And also:

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, [b]Peace and safety;[/b] then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Watch about these words, Peace and Safety. Very much used words, many of the world events are just moving in the name of peace and safety. Thousands conferences for peace, thousands organizations for peace and safety. Important words.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 [b]Therefore let us not sleep,[/b] as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Compliments, few more things. Are you called to be ignoramus of the world events or to watch and examine all things? What is the Spirit talking to you when you read the passages when the Lord is speaking to us about the preceding events before His coming? Do you thing He wanted for us to be ignoramus? Why then so much warnings, so much written? How you read those passages? Do you read them as they will surely not happen in your time? What you expect to happen before Antichrist to come? Do you think he will come with two horns and tail and say I will be the Antichrist that is written in the bible? Isn't the bible warns us the he is the father of the lie? Lie.

Compliments, do you have e-sword? Try to study the word delusion G1406.

Hi HE_Reigns...

Yes, I've read all about Ron Paul's opposition to this highway. Through his rhetoric, he is making it into a matter of "national sovereignty." I suspect that he might be using his rhetoric to garner support against its construction because it does not help his district in Texas. His district is not included in the proposed location of the highway. Suddenly, allegations surface about "secret meetings" meant to turn North America into a "one-government union." Sadly, this is too often representative of the way that politics work. Viable projects are considered “pork barrel projects” or “threats to national security.” Abortion rights, mandatory media ratings and opposition to a national identification card are relegated as “threats to a right of privacy.”

Anyone with a basic knowledge of the Constitution realizes that these rumors could never take place. There aren't any "secret meetings" in which a president (or even Congress) can cause the United States to sacrifice sovereignty to another nation. A "treaty" can be created for the purpose of trade, but it is subject to the scrutiny of the Congress, the Court and voters.

The bottom line is that this "secret highway" is simply NOT a secret. The "Amero" is NOT a coin of currency. No "European Union" type of organization is planned with the exception of possible trade purposes (which could replace or augment the already existent trade organizations).

If you read the first post again, you will notice that there is quite a bit of interpretation built upon these rumors:

From what I have heard it has been denied by many politician's as crazy and yet is now already being built in Texas.

The story is that Bush is making secret deals with the elite of Canada and Mexico to build this trade freeqay and that is why the government is not so worried about immigration because they want to unite anyways

Even with one currency the "Amero".

They want to be like the European Union and unite as they did. And, for all the new world order buff's this would be another step toward one world government.

Also in the plans is a national id card that will even have a radio wave frequency chip. This card will in turn take away our Constitutional privacies ect due to an overriding of the Constitution because of "terrorist threat".

Do you see how interpretation of such rumor can create conspiracy theories? We should be careful about presenting these claims in such a manner. Why? Because someone else might take them and run. Then, we may find ourselves guilty of not just spreading gossip, but providing such gossip to others.

I realize that davidt was NOT creating allegations, but opening these rumors for discussion. He correctly identified these rumors as “hearsay.” Yet when these things are exposed as “conspiracy theories,” we are “warned” or asked to almost defend our rationale for exposing them. In other words, conspiracy theorists often force the burden of proof upon those who debunk them, rather than the other way around.

:-(

ccchhhrrriiisss, I would like to ask you few questions regarding these subjects. I would be glad if you share clearly your beliefs on this.

Do you see right now the kings and nations moving forward into a New World Order (New wordily kingdom on which the Antichrist will reign and persecute the believers no matter what nationality) and in real conspiracy against the Holy One of Israel and His Anointed One? If yes, how do you see the role of USA in all picture? I am asking this because every time when the wicked ways of your nation is exposed you are raising to defend with official politically correct excuses. And you are telling that we should believe only the official sources ([i]don't forget who is the father of lies and who is 'the god of this world'[/i]), while ignoring the things happening silently toward uniting of the nations and 'building the tower of babel' in direct rebellion toward Jesus Christ.

But please don't answer this from pure politically perspective, but as a heavenly citizen, as a man who is 'looking for for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God'. Looking on the spiritual background of the events and things going on in the world today. Or you think that there is no spiritual background of the events taking place now in the world?

Thank you in advance for your time.

Kire

Hi Kire…

I will do my best to answer your questions in a manner that is clear enough to not be misconstrued or misinterpreted.

Do you see right now the kings and nations moving forward into a New World Order (New wordily kingdom on which the Antichrist will reign and persecute the believers no matter what nationality) and in real conspiracy against the Holy One of Israel and His Anointed One?

If yes, how do you see the role of USA in all picture?

I am asking this because every time when the wicked ways of your nation is exposed you are raising to defend with official politically correct excuses.

And you are telling that we should believe only the official sources (don't forget who is the father of lies and who is 'the god of this world'), while ignoring the things happening silently toward uniting of the nations and 'building the tower of babel' in direct rebellion toward Jesus Christ.

But please don't answer this from pure politically perspective, but as a heavenly citizen, as a man who is 'looking for for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God'. Looking on the spiritual background of the events and things going on in the world today. Or you think that there is no spiritual background of the events taking place now in the world?

:-(

Hi HE_Reigns…

Whether you believe that a American Union was or is in mind, is not worth all of this, in my opinion - because it was the plan of the Trilateral Commission to have the globe split into three Unions from their inception - but things (Biblically) have accelerated to the point that, with just one Crisis - these three Unions won't be needed -- we'll just go straight to Global and the Chip - (BBC) ---- and what our fear is, is that you may not see that we are living in the last days - when things have been done and are being done by Globalists and not just for "trade" purposes --- that these folks within our system, are implementing changes to bring us into the NWO, which will be the Biblical one world government.
I don't believe Ron Paul and the others are liars, jealous, nuts or CTs - and I do know what the CFR and Trilateral Commission and UN were set up for, from their own writings also.

I’ve had the opportunity to sit and meet with several members of the government (including those who sit on that infamously dreaded and often maligned Trilateral Commission). You know what? They are not made up of the most intelligent or fearsome men in the world. It is simply a private group of “experts” and “important” individuals meant to discuss international relations in regard to the three democratic economic powers when it was created (Europe, Japan and the US). Do you know how much official power the Trilateral Commission has in US politics? NONE. They only have the power of [i]influence[/i]. Contrary to the allegations that come from sources like the John Birch Society, the Trilateral Commission does not embrace a one-world government. They have actually been forced to provide disclaimers because of the slander from persistent conspiracy theorists. In fact, I have never seen anything that would suggest that this is their goal. Yet it is repeated over and over again by individuals who fail to provide credible evidence to substantiate such conspiracy theories. It makes me wonder how many of these people have actually spoken to or corresponded with members of the TC?

However, I didn’t write my posts to talk about suspicions concerning the Trilateral Commission, the extent of a supposed “New World Order,” or other conspiracy theories. I simply responded to Brother David’s initial posts concerning hearsay. He presented some information, asked for comments, and I responded.

You need not worry about whether or not I “see” that we are living in the “last days.” If you have ever read any of my posts, you will realize that I know that the coming of the Lord is at hand. But the fact remains that I DON’T CARE when or how this takes place. To live is Christ and to die is gain. As I have stated constantly in the past, we should be ready to depart this world at any time. Our sole objective in this world is to know and fellowship with our Lord – and to introduce Him to others. We have been living in the last days since at least Acts chapter 2. We should already be living as if we are ready to meet the Lord and stand in judgment. In other words, we should already be prepared. If the governments of this world choose to gather believers and kill us tomorrow – what should I care? As long as I am walking closely with my Lord, I don’t care how the end will come. Yes, I am aware of the signs and various interpretations of how the end might come.

However, we still have a responsibility to be truthful when presenting such information in a public manner. This is just as severely pertinent as those who make prophetic claims. Such claims are either grounded in truth or myth. In this case, there was no “secret highway.” The “Amero” coin is just an already-debunked urban legend. And no proof exists about supposed “secret meetings” in regard to a one-government North American Union. Alas -- we should not at all get carried away by the various winds of conspiracy or rumor. We shouldn’t even be alarmed by those things that we hear. Yes, we should make an effort to not be ignorant of the days (that they might take us like a thief). But is that what we are concerned about? Is someone seriously compelled to warn me that my entire eternity might be in jeopardy for not jumping on the bandwagon of conspiracy theories (for that is what they are)?

I suppose that I answer these questions often. This is not because I am defending the “wicked ways” of this government (as Kire suggested). I simply feel that if we are going to share our beliefs concerning the government, officials, politicians, organizations, economists and even nations, we shouldn’t be upset if they are subjected to scrutiny. In fact, we should be delighted that others are willing to “test everything” and hold on to the good (I Thessalonians 5:21). In regards to this, I have an educational background related to such matters. I’ve literally broken bread and prayed with some important men in government. That is why it is so ridiculous to hear some of the wild conspiracy theories about some of these individuals.

I suppose that I fear that many believers are looking for evidence that will verify the manner in which they believe that the world will end. A few months ago, someone emailed me and told me that they knew (because GOD TOLD HIM over 30 years ago) that Henry Kissinger is the Antichrist. As a result, he looks at Bible prophecy through a lens that is clouded accordingly. He closely follows the movement of Henry Kissinger. He actually proclaims this information as truth to whoever will listen (he calls it a “warning”). What will happen when Kissinger dies (he is nearly 85 years old now)? His entire view of Bible prophecy over the past 30 years has been based upon a misconception. While he will probably feel relieved that he was wrong, I imagine that he will feel rather foolish as well. But will he be able to gather all of those individuals that he “warned” and admit to them that he really was spreading what amounts to slander about an individual that he has never met?

In the end, the end will come. How will it come? Well, we currently look through a glass darkly. We view Bible prophecy through a veil of our human limitations. As believers, we need not be afraid of the end. Even if we are privileged to give up our lives (even through torture) for our faith, death has still lost its sting. Our faith should not be moved because of someone loudly proclaiming something (right or wrong) about the end. Yet it is still our responsibility to distinguish between those things that are undeniable fact and those things that are merely speculation.

:-(

Hello Chris, first of all thank you for your time and the response.

Although I didn't hear much new that I didn't know of your opinion on these matters, it was better to be read in good order. Thank you.

I will just comment few things, and if it is necessary we could continue on PM.

When I said that you are defending the wicked ways of your nation, I didn't mean that you are doing this intentionally and in awareness of that. I believe that you are very sincere man and sincere in what you are doing. But that doesn't mean that you cannot be wrong in your estimation and perception of the things around you. And some things may be of much greater importance than you think they are. Would you allow such possibility?

America may or may not be the great Babylonian whore of Revelation.

That means you accept that there is a possibility of this. Will it make difference for example if it is? What will be the differences and responsibilities? And the whole perception of the things?

I personally don't claim is it is or not. I am examining. Only what I know is that it is not the 'chosen' nation and 'savior' of the world, as some movies are representing.

Some are already willing to crown America as such (and have even called everyone from Henry Kissinger to Ronald Reagan to President Bush as the Antichrist).

Brother, what some others have said about american presidents it's not the subject of discussion here. If someone of us participating in this thread here have said that, you are in full right to use the quote and speak against it.

First of all, there aren’t many “kings” left on Earth. Most of the “kings” left on Earth are mere figurative puppets rather than ruling monarchs.

I thought you would understand that when I said kings, I mean the heads of the nations, those who rule the nations. When it is written in the Bible kings for the future, surely it doesn't mean today's office of the kings. But the kings of the bible times have been today's so called presidents.

Is there a physical conspiracy where individuals are hoping and wanting to prepare this world for the Antichrist? I don’t know.

Yes, I am aware that the nations of this world will eventually err on the side of the Antichrist. Currently? [b]I don’t believe that there is an underlying conspiracy by the nations[/b] of this world to follow the Antichrist and persecute believers.

Why? The nations of this world are already damned to Hell! Because the people of this world exist apart from a desire to know and embrace the Creator of all things, they are already a part of this system. That has never changed. [b]Is there a physical conspiracy[/b] where individuals are hoping and wanting to prepare this world for the Antichrist? [b]I don’t know.[/b]

Brother, this is honest answer.

I feel that this work has been ongoing since Satan fell, and is primarily accomplished in heavenly realms.

There is no doubt that it is ongoing since the Satan's fell. But the fact is that this will not be eternally ongoing, there will be time of culmination of the plans and a final end.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul even said 'ye have no need unto you' and then he continues what these times will be. In order to recognize them. The Holy Spirit was very careful of compiling every word in the Scripture. And you how much is written about the 'last days' and 'end times' and the 'signs'. This is no by accident. And if God decided to be so, that means that this is very important thing for examining the times and seasons.

We are ordered to watch and we have responsibility to do that.

In the end, the end will come. How will it come? Well, we currently look through a glass darkly. We view Bible prophecy through a veil of our human limitations.

Chris, that's not how the Scriptures teach us how to look into the end times. Some of the things I said in the above comments. The context of we 'look through a glass darkly' it's something else. Paul there makes comparison between what we cannot understand here on earth, and we will understand it fully on the heavens.

But the subject of the end times and prophecies is not even similar to this. The prophecies will be fulfilled here on earth. And therefore we must look for the times and season. Paul says also, which is very important:

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Verses before that Paul is describing one of the sings of the coming of our Lord.

Jesus also said:

"ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"

As the Israelites was must for them to discern the signs of His first coming, also we must discern the signs of His second coming. Regarding this He said:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

We have the book of Revelation to show us the things which shall pass here on earth.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

That means that there was a need that we as His servants know the things which will come. So we must not be ignorant. We commandment to learn the lesson and discern the times. Why?

Because:

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Note here, it says [i]no man[/i]. It means that there will be men that will deceive other man. And if he says 'take heed' that means that it is possible to be deceived.

This word deceive is mentioned four times in Mat. 24.

I’ve had the opportunity to sit and meet with several members of the government (including those who sit on that infamously

dreaded and often maligned Trilateral Commission). You know what? They are not made up of the most intelligent or fearsome

men in the world. It is simply a private group of “experts” and “important” individuals meant to discuss international

relations in regard to the three democratic economic powers when it was created (Europe, Japan and the US).

In regards to this, I have an educational background related to such matters. I’ve literally broken bread and prayed with some important men in government. That is why it is so ridiculous to hear some of the wild conspiracy theories about some of these individuals.

Chris, you have said this other time also. (I think it was that you have interviewed some man from the government). The fact you have sit with some of these men from the government and you have talked with them, doesn't mean anything in a sense that you know the truth. What if these men are deceived also? I would repeat the words of Jesus again, 'Take heed that no man deceive you.'

That's why I don't believe that we as christians, our place is not in the politics of this world.

I asked you in one thread, are you by profession politician or something similar. I didn't get answer, maybe you haven't seen the question.

Chris, I appreciate your zeal for truth. But I am afraid of the prejudice that you have, didn't allow you to see the other side of the coin. Let us never forget that the 'god of this world' is the father of lie. I am from other country you are from other. From kids they have taught us that everything what the official are making is the best. We are the best. Our government is the best. Movies, Media, Newspapers, Education from babies has taught us and controlled not HOW to think, but WHAT to think.

I have lived in a communist country. As a kids we have gave oaths that we will not go right or left from the path of the communist president. We had pictures from him in every home. And thousands other things that we have believed that are truth, but they were just one big LIE. We can see now. After the fall of the communism in the 1990. We saw that we have lived in BIG LIE. Now seeing the things from this perspective, it is unbelievable to believe how we believed in such LIES. We have been like a puppets. Do you know what was happening when someone will expose those lies, of course they have calling this 'rumors'. And it happened that these 'rumors' to be truth. Just be reminded of the christians under the communism. Be reminded of the stories of Wurmbrand in Romania. Jails, beatings and much more.

Now you will say, wait a min, it's not so here, we live in a land of freedom and liberty.
The question is, is this true?
I will not talk about the past, but I want to say few things about the near history and today.
I'm coming to believe that this 'freedom' is more dangerous than a communism. Why? Because of the mind shaping, but now with different methods that are making false security. These are more dangerous methods. Communist said, there is no God, here they say, there is a God and He is on our side and He is in favour with us. That's why we are the best, the mightiest, the most beautiful, and we cannot be wrong.

And from a babies these teaching are pressed in the kids minds, through family, media, newspapers, movies (how many movies I have seen in my former life, how our nation is the best, the mightiest heroes, every time we are the righteous, saving the world), public education (on of the most important tool for shaping minds), etc

And all this in the name of God and even using His name. And in this way one false reality is molding. That you think that you are the 'chosen' one and you serve the to the right God, but in reality you are not either 'chosen', you are not even serving the right God, but false one. But in this way is creating one false security and satisfying the conscience and making you blind for the reality. This kind of environment and system is making you blind to the real things around you and putting you into big sleep for the truth around you. That's how you are unabled to see some things that for others are very much obvious. And this kind of environment produces also fear, and when you oppose the lies it is very much possible
to be judged as spreading 'rumors'.

This kind of environment is producing also directly (under control) or inderectly a false christianity and a false Christ, which is an idol.

In the days of Elijah, there was a very clear:

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, [b]How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him.[/b] And the people answered him not a word.

Why I said that I'm coming to believe that this kind of 'freedom' that is producing this kind of christianity can be more dangerous?

Because the wicked one is very wise in his plans, and now instead of persecute the christians like in the communist countries where he saw that the church become just stronger, the blood became seed, now on the scene came false christ, an idol, not the real one. That is producing false security, that you think you are saved and serve God, but in reality you are in a big sleep. Dream that every thing is ok. And when someone is saying the truth, you respond with 'I am tired of negative things'. 'Let me live my life' 'I have right to this, to that...'

And the whole mindset of the society, 'I have freedom' 'I have freedom to vote, to chose my leader' 'I have freedom of education' etc etc While on the same time you are slave, but you think that you have freedom. In the communism you know that you don't have 'freedom', and if you are in jail you are in jail. Here you have 'freedom' but actually you are slave to the system.

What we desperately need today is renewed mind. There are many born from the Spirit christians, but they are still without renewed minds.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: [b]but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,[/b] that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We must renew our mind through and with the word of God. Otherwise we are in great danger.

Just look how the system is made (not just in USA). Every need of God is eliminated. You don't need God because there is health system and they will take care for you. You have insurance. You have every month money, food, clothes. You have everything. And the need of God is eliminated. Without knowingly, the system is eliminating God from the scene, and the state is becoming god. And you think that all these things are benefits of the society, and not realizing that those very things has removed God slowly but surely from the throne from your heart, and they put the system and the state. And in the same time you are told that 'we are nation under God'. But the real question is, which God?

Literal picture from Revelation

I am rich,

and increased with goods,

and have need of nothing;

and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked

This kind of christianity is ready to declare that everyone who said once in his lifetime that is born again that he is truly such, without seeing the fruits. That's the way to be exposed to even greater delusion, if you believe him.

This kind of system and christianity is also producing so much false teachers and prophets, who are spreading this kind of gospel to every part of the world. So called missionaries spreading not the gospel of Christ, but some culture and system. I have seen many, they are on my town also. The harm that they have made to the gospel is indescribable.

But, there are still prophets and real teachers who warn the body of Christ. Who warn of the great falling away and the apostacy and the great sleeping. The most listened compilation on this site, the revival hymn is beginning with the words, "The church of Jesus Christ is large sleeping today, saying Please don't wake me up, I want to sleep ON" When you sleep, you are dreaming and this is not the reality. Reality is something else.

[url=http://www.preachingtruth.com/view_video.php?viewkey=4caaed33c36b1b5fc2cb&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr]How can you sleep?[/url]

Brother Greg put this compilation some time ago. This man is saying:

"You can't say that you were not warned,
you cannot say that there was not some Noah that didn't preach to you 120 years, but you have ignored saying, WHO IS THAT MAN, oh that's just Noah, he is going to the church house, that's just Noah, he is always talking NEGATIVE, that's just Noah"

I believe that there are many, many Noah's today. Many are on this site. And God is using this site, I believe in this. To preach the serioussnes of the Gospel and warn the people and the church to wake up from the sleep.

I heard recently in one occasion Ravenhill saying:

"I don't believe the greatest enemy to USA is Russia, I believe the greatest enemy to USA is GOD"

How do we respond to this prophet's call? Is this hard word to us? If we think that this prophet had the mind of God, and what he says here is truth, then we are in big trouble.

I am afraid not to be truth for some of us this:

Eze 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, [b]and they hear thy words, but they will not do them:[/b] for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Eze 33:32 And, lo, thou art unto them [b]as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice,[/b] and can play well on an instrument: for [u]they hear thy words, but they do them not. [/u]
Eze 33:33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.

I have heard that the talk of the end times is producing fear and negativism etc Why to produce fear? Why to be afraid of truth? Isn't our Lord coming soon to see Him? Or we want to enjoy one year more in our comforts and luxuries? In our sleep? In our pride? In our material goods? One year more of fleshly comfort? That's why we don't want to hear someone talking about the end days. What is more gloriously than to know that you will meet your Saviour?

I would like to finish the one post by brother Jim (jimdied2sin), who went pretty unnoticed:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20575&forum=35

I want to write something that will make me very unpopular. I believe that we (among the revival crowd) have a false sense that we are the repairers of the wall, when in fact many are on the verge of being handed over to the greater darkness and reprobation.

I wonder how many have come here, listened to these messages, listened to Ravenhill, Wilkerson, Washer, Tozer, etc and haven't even made an effort to scale down their lifestyles so they could feed the poor or support missions, I wonder how many continue in willful sin through unbelief although their ears have heard that Christ came to purchase for himself a free and spotless bride. Brother I wonder how many here on the forum spend more time praying then watching TV. I wonder how many, as one dear brother wrote recently, are moved from their beds by the Spirit at night into a closet or bathroom to weep before God.

How long can we waver between two opinions?

If entertainment is God then serve entertainment.

[i]If the comfort of your flesh is God then serve the comfort of your flesh.[/i]

If talking about revival is God then continue talking about the thing that you have [b]no intention on ever paying the price[/b] for anyway.

[b]If the American dream is God then continue to serve the American dream.[/b]

If meaningless church activities are God then continue on in them

[b]If self preservation is God then continue to save your life, when in fact you are losing it.[/b]

If unrighteous mammon is God then continue to serve and take comfort in unrighteous mammon

[b]But if the Lord, He is God, then turn to Him with all of your heart today. Whoever tries to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for the sake of Christ will find it![/b]

I would say Amen.

Chris this was as respond to you, but I continued to write generally. So, not all sentences are directly to you. I hope you will understand what is to you what not. Probably this was my longest post on SI, it took hours and forgive me if the thoughts are not so much in order.

Your brother from Macedonia,
Kire

Dear brother Kire,

I think Chris is concerned that we do not repeat things that are not true, or that will slander the reputation of others. Or maybe, if I could put it this way, of drawing waters from a polluted stream.

Brother ChrisJD...

ChrisJD wrote:

I think Chris is concerned that we do not repeat things that are not true, or that will slander the reputation of others. Or maybe, if I could put it this way, of drawing waters from a polluted stream.

Exactly.

:-)

In Cccchhhrrriiisss's defense, it seems that some of us take the liberty to wander from the actual Canon of scripture to discuss political events, and then challenge others as being not heavenly minded when they disagree with our slant.

If we do not want Chris to share his views relative to the United States, then don't bring up the subject in the first place. If we feel we must warn others of the problems we see, then be able to identify when we have migrated from scripture into the realm of our sincere perspective (albeit based on research) and be willing to hear sincere perspectives in turn.

Perhaps some feel strongly that being a citizen of heaven means having no earthly nationalistic concerns and would like to avoid discussing politics. I understand that. If that's your belief, the only way I know to avoid getting stuck in the swamp of political discussion is to not stretch the borders of scripture to include your political concerns in the first place.

I understand that some sincerely feel they have a canonical revelation from God about America. Yet even these, who feel commissioned in their hearts to offer their provacative political positions, can't expect to throw the first punch and then try to thumb off rebuttal with spiritual repositioning. If political controversy is the arena you feel God has called you to enter, then take your licks with honor.;)

You know, I'm beginning to think there may have been a wise reason John's revelation concerning the beast to the Early Christians was not a straightfoward expose of Rome and Ceasar. Maybe the things we are to know from scripture are the things we find in scripture, and we shouldn't be trying too hard to find something else.

MC

Hi Kire…

To start off with, I have been praying about how to respond (and even whether or not I should respond at all). You see, this isn’t a matter of defending a man, a group, a political party, or even a nation. My intent was not to defend a form of government as flawed as the United States of America. As ChrisJD correctly pointed out, it is about defending the TRUTH. People are certainly permitted to share their thoughts concerning prophecy, but they are still obliged to refrain from the presentation of hearsay, rumor or gossip as a fact. Even if their “sources” come from politicians in Congress, the obligation of a “burden of proof” should fall upon the person presenting the information rather than the listener. How often do members of the political Left (including members of Congress) question the motives of politicians on the Right as part of some “vast, right-wing conspiracy?”

In the case of this thread, a good brother brought to discussion several issues for which he asked for commentary. He did not claim any respect for these things, but admitted from the outset that they were hearsay. My response was to simply comment on those things that he presented. There is no “secret” highway. The “Amero” coin has already been debunked (on SermonIndex and elsewhere). No credible proof has been presented about “secret meetings” meant to dissolve national or governmental boundaries. No proof exists of a “radio frequency” within a national identification card (or a governmental desire to “take away our Constitutional privacies”). That is the extent of my debunking. However, this conversation can (and usually does) go further. Why?

Perhaps some individuals feel that an attack on the presented evidence is an attack on personal belief concerning prophecy OR a defense of truth in regard to individuals, politicians or even nationality. This couldn’t be further from the truth and the suspicions that arise after reading such limited posts can amount to an unnecessary “reading between the lines” or even an incorrect verdict of a brother’s beliefs or intent. Yet the very discussion of an interpretation of Biblical events often causes conflict amongst those who feel so secure in their interpretations. We need to understand that the end will certainly come – but every detail between point A (now) and point Z (the end) is not completely identifiable from the Scriptures. We also need to understand that any sort of questioning of the facts is neither an attack on the beliefs of another nor a defense of individuals, groups, political parties or national governments.

In the Scriptures, we are given few clear indications about what exactly will happen in regard to future events (and the immanency of them). Yes, we are told about things that will certainly happen (and have happened). We are told about various forms of judgment, tribulation, organizations, and even a dreaded Abomination of Desolation. We are informed about a mark. We are told about wars, famines, earthquakes and pestilences. We are told about the Judgment, the destruction of all things, and a future recreation. Upon these things, our understanding can be as near to “20/20” as Biblically possible. Yet we are surprisingly uninformed about dates, times, names, cities and nations. Even something as abundantly clear as the “mark of the beast” is not completely clear in regard to its implementation. Will it be a microchip? Will it be a bar code? Will it be a radio chip? Will it be a bank card device? Will it actually have a numbers? Will it actually have a name? Will it just be a symbol? Do you see the possibilities that this single issue raises? This is the “veil” or “glass darkly” to which I was referring earlier.

Unfortunately, there are some who feel secure on just how clearly they see the “truth” in Biblical prophecy. They feel that, after years of study, they are seeing through any sort of veil. This is a dangerous position to take – no matter what the topic. As much as I love and respect the teachings and work of men like Leonard Ravenhill, Dave Wilkerson, Carter Conlon, Paris Reidhead, Art Katz, Paul Washer, etc… -- I still understand that these are just men who are as flawed as you and I. I will continue to search the Scriptures while listening to their messages, even though I do hold them in a higher regard from the ministries of most modern preachers. In fact, when I met Brother Ravenhill as a youth, he insisted that this sort of “testing” is exceedingly needed in today’s Church. It is not a sign of disrespect to a man of God, but a sign of greater respect for the Word of God.

In the realm of prophecy, there are believers who feel that the End of all things is at hand. If we examine the beliefs and teachings throughout Church history, we will find that this has been preached since the beginning. I perceive that many believers who lived when Christ ascended felt that He would return during their lifetimes. It didn’t happen. The signs of the Lord’s return (particularly in regard to wars, rumours of wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, etc…) have existed throughout history. I know believers who were certain that the Lord would return BEFORE the year 2000. Some even had particular years marked on the calendar for either the timing of the “rapture” or commencement of the tribulation (several pointed at 1996, 1997 and 2004). I know some believers who actually PREACH that we are living in the middle of the Great Tribulation. Is it right to preach this way? Is it any different from claiming that the mark of the beast is actually a VISA card?

Yes, there are things that we can deduce from the Scriptures in regard to Bible prophecy. I am cautious when noting the technological advances in regard to banking. But I still cannot proclaim a bar code, a microchip or a VISA as being [u]the[/u] mark of the beast. It may very well be the technology used in this regard. While I feel that quite a few things need to happen BEFORE such a mark is implemented (which could literally happen overnight), I am not afraid of the end. I will not be ignorant of the events around me, but I still don’t feel a need to “chase the wind” in this regard. The end will come on God’s own timing. My responsibility has been, and always will be, to spend my life knowing our Lord and introducing others to Him. Life, death, torture or temporary happiness matter little in comparison with Eternity. Like I said earlier, I should ALREADY be prepared to meet the Lord at any time (even if it means that I am appointed to face tribulation or suffer under God’s wrath). When our greatest pleasure in life comes from knowing Him, spending time in His presence or introducing this friendship with others, then why should we fear the future?

When I said that you are defending the wicked ways of your nation, I didn't mean that you are doing this intentionally and in awareness of that. I believe that you are very sincere man and sincere in what you are doing. But that doesn't mean that you cannot be wrong in your estimation and perception of the things around you. And some things may be of much greater importance than you think they are. Would you allow such possibility?
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America may or may not be the great Babylonian whore of Revelation.
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That means you accept that there is a possibility of this. Will it make difference for example if it is? What will be the differences and responsibilities? And the whole perception of the things?

I personally don't claim is it is or not. I am examining. Only what I know is that it is not the 'chosen' nation and 'savior' of the world, as some movies are representing.

I have traveled abroad. I’ve been through Europe, Central and South America. I’ve seen the sinfulness of cities and towns in Europe, Mexico and even Canada. How can we call America the “most sinful nation on Earth” when cities exist where fewer than 1% of the population is born again and that 1% is tortured for Christ?!? How can we smugly call Hurricane Katrina the “judgment of God upon New Orleans” when the only ones who died were the poor, elderly and destitute? Why would God pour out His physical judgment against New Orleans while cities like Amsterdam continue to sell drugs and young women in storefront windows?!? Why do we have to arrogantly call the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina part of “the beginning of God’s last day judgment” when the breach in the levees was simply the result of poor engineering? Why? Because we are waiting (and sometimes [u]chasing[/u]) for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. I remember individuals pointing at the large amount of major hurricanes in 2005 as “undeniable proof” of supernatural fulfillment of prophecy. Then the next two years brought about relatively quiet storm seasons. Should we hold those “prophecy experts” accountable for their words from 2005? Were they not guilty of the same sort of error as those who pointed at God’s judgment in the Tower of Siloam incident (Luke 13:1-9)?

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“Some are already willing to crown America as such (and have even called everyone from Henry Kissinger to Ronald Reagan to President Bush as the Antichrist).”
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Brother, what some others have said about american presidents it's not the subject of discussion here. If someone of us participating in this thread here have said that, you are in full right to use the quote and speak against it.

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First of all, there aren’t many “kings” left on Earth. Most of the “kings” left on Earth are mere figurative puppets rather than ruling monarchs.
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I thought you would understand that when I said kings, I mean the heads of the nations, those who rule the nations. When it is written in the Bible kings for the future, surely it doesn't mean today's office of the kings. But the kings of the bible times have been today's so called presidents.

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Yes, I am aware that the nations of this world will eventually err on the side of the Antichrist. Currently? I don’t believe that there is an underlying conspiracy by the nations of this world to follow the Antichrist and persecute believers.
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Why? The nations of this world are already damned to Hell! Because the people of this world exist apart from a desire to know and embrace the Creator of all things, they are already a part of this system. That has never changed. Is there a physical conspiracy where individuals are hoping and wanting to prepare this world for the Antichrist? I don’t know.
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Brother, this is honest answer.

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I feel that this work has been ongoing since Satan fell, and is primarily accomplished in heavenly realms.
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There is no doubt that it is ongoing since the Satan's fell. But the fact is that this will not be eternally ongoing, there will be time of culmination of the plans and a final end.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul even said 'ye have no need unto you' and then he continues what these times will be. In order to recognize them. The Holy Spirit was very careful of compiling every word in the Scripture. And you how much is written about the 'last days' and 'end times' and the 'signs'. This is no by accident. And if God decided to be so, that means that this is very important thing for examining the times and seasons.

We are ordered to watch and we have responsibility to do that.

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“In the end, the end will come. How will it come? Well, we currently look through a glass darkly. We view Bible prophecy through a veil of our human limitations.”
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Chris, that's not how the Scriptures teach us how to look into the end times. Some of the things I said in the above comments. The context of we 'look through a glass darkly' it's something else. Paul there makes comparison between what we cannot understand here on earth, and we will understand it fully on the heavens.

But the subject of the end times and prophecies is not even similar to this. The prophecies will be fulfilled here on earth. And therefore we must look for the times and season. Paul says also, which is very important:

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Verses before that Paul is describing one of the sings of the coming of our Lord.

Jesus also said:

"ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"

As the Israelites was must for them to discern the signs of His first coming, also we must discern the signs of His second coming. Regarding this He said:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

We have the book of Revelation to show us the things which shall pass here on earth.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

That means that there was a need that we as His servants know the things which will come. So we must not be ignorant. We commandment to learn the lesson and discern the times. Why?

Because:

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Note here, it says no man. It means that there will be men that will deceive other man. And if he says 'take heed' that means that it is possible to be deceived.

This word deceive is mentioned four times in Mat. 24.

In regard to knowing the times: Do you know EVERYTHING that will take place before the Antichrist is revealed and our Lord returns? Do you know the times? Will we see the Antichrist revealed in the next year or two? The next decade? Do you see the problem with claiming that we can be aware of things that we just can’t be sure of?

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I’ve had the opportunity to sit and meet with several members of the government (including those who sit on that infamously dreaded and often maligned Trilateral Commission). You know what? They are not made up of the most intelligent or fearsome men in the world. It is simply a private group of “experts” and “important” individuals meant to discuss international relations in regard to the three democratic economic powers when it was created (Europe, Japan and the US).
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In regards to this, I have an educational background related to such matters. I’ve literally broken bread and prayed with some important men in government. That is why it is so ridiculous to hear some of the wild conspiracy theories about some of these individuals.
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Chris, you have said this other time also. (I think it was that you have interviewed some man from the government). The fact you have sit with some of these men from the government and you have talked with them, doesn't mean anything in a sense that you know the truth. What if these men are deceived also? I would repeat the words of Jesus again, 'Take heed that no man deceive you.'

That's why I don't believe that we as christians, our place is not in the politics of this world.

When I worked at NASA, I witnessed some amazing examples of technology. Yet I remember realizing that my respect for NASA was grossly overestimated before my first internship. The people who worked there were ordinary people. There were no UFO cover-ups, no underground tunnels, no secret technologies, and no impending machinery that would revolutionize the world. It was simply an organization trying to discover science that would be beneficial toward mankind (by the way, over 85% of NASA’s budget goes to projects that are Earth-based, non-exploratory projects).

I asked you in one thread, are you by profession politician or something similar. I didn't get answer, maybe you haven't seen the question.

Chris, I appreciate your zeal for truth. But I am afraid of the prejudice that you have, didn't allow you to see the other side of the coin. Let us never forget that the 'god of this world' is the father of lie.

I am from other country you are from other. From kids they have taught us that everything what the official are making is the best. We are the best. Our government is the best. Movies, Media, Newspapers, Education from babies has taught us and controlled not HOW to think, but WHAT to think.

I have lived in a communist country. As a kids we have gave oaths that we will not go right or left from the path of the communist president. We had pictures from him in every home. And thousands other things that we have believed that are truth, but they were just one big LIE. We can see now. After the fall of the communism in the 1990. We saw that we have lived in BIG LIE. Now seeing the things from this perspective, it is unbelievable to believe how we believed in such LIES. We have been like a puppets. Do you know what was happening when someone will expose those lies, of course they have calling this 'rumors'. And it happened that these 'rumors' to be truth. Just be reminded of the christians under the communism. Be reminded of the stories of Wurmbrand in Romania. Jails, beatings and much more.

Now you will say, wait a min, it's not so here, we live in a land of freedom and liberty.
The question is, is this true?

Last year, someone brought up a discussion concerning a missionary in Mexico who claims to have raised over 60 people from the dead! American charismatic believers flock to this man’s meetings in the United States. They are attracted to such tales of the supernatural (including his supposed conversation with a 10-12 foot tall owl). Ironically, the media is attracted to such tales of the supernatural. Every time a burned spot on a torilla is shaped like a human, the Mexican media reports on it as though it were a sign from God (the appearance of the Virgin Mary or some other saint). Mexico would LOVE to report on just a single person being raised from the dead! But you know what? They never have reported on ANY of these supposed miracles. Why? Is it that this missionary is able to “hide” such things from the media? Or is he just making this stuff up as he goes?

Why did I bring this up? This is similar to the manner in which we discuss such conspiracies. I’ve often wondered just why so many people follow the likes of charismatic preachers who broadcast claims of the supernatural. I think that it is because people are simply [u]looking[/u] for verification of their beliefs. The same is true with Bible prophecy. Yes, we should be aware and even watch the events of human history (and Bible prophecy) as they unfold. But if we are not careful, we might find ourselves [u]looking[/u] for things that verify what we already perceive to occur in our prophetic timeline. Since America is the most powerful nation on Earth, it is easy to point the finger and claim that she is the great whore of Babylon (from Revelation chapter 17). Yet in reality, we aren’t completely certain whether or not America will even be around by the fulfillment of this passage.

I will not talk about the past, but I want to say few things about the near history and today.
I'm coming to believe that this 'freedom' is more dangerous than a communism. Why? Because of the mind shaping, but now with different methods that are making false security. These are more dangerous methods. Communist said, there is no God, here they say, there is a God and He is on our side and He is in favour with us. That's why we are the best, the mightiest, the most beautiful, and we cannot be wrong.

And from a babies these teaching are pressed in the kids minds, through family, media, newspapers, movies (how many movies I have seen in my former life, how our nation is the best, the mightiest heroes, every time we are the righteous, saving the world), public education (on of the most important tool for shaping minds), etc

And all this in the name of God and even using His name. And in this way one false reality is molding. That you think that you are the 'chosen' one and you serve the to the right God, but in reality you are not either 'chosen', you are not even serving the right God, but false one. But in this way is creating one false security and satisfying the conscience and making you blind for the reality.

I don’t know of any believer who actually puts their faith in America. I don’t know of anyone who declares blind allegiance to this government or this nation. On the contrary, I see quite a bit of MISTRUST of government, officials, and even the information that is fed by government. Yes, quite a few Americans express love for this nation. Yet I think that America is quite different than many other nations in the underlying principle for this. America’s government is (literally) its people. The government of this nation is made up [i]of the people, by the people and for the people[/i]. So the government of the United States is literally its people. The President, members of Congress and other government officials are really mere private citizens like you and me. They were placed in office by a plurality of votes. The mayor of my town is an insurance salesman. The governor of Texas was a farmer and military serviceman. The President of the United States used to control the majority stake in a major league baseball team. They are just normal (albeit financially successful) people. As a result of this involvement of everyday citizens in the United States, there is a real fraternal brotherhood felt in America. With all of its vices and problems that are repeatedly reported by the media, a time of crisis tends to bring out that feeling of family and kinship.

This kind of environment and system is making you blind to the real things around you and putting you into big sleep for the truth around you. That's how you are unabled to see some things that for others are very much obvious. And this kind of environment produces also fear, and when you oppose the lies it is very much possible to be judged as spreading 'rumors'.

Because the wicked one is very wise in his plans, and now instead of persecute the christians like in the communist countries where he saw that the church become just stronger, the blood became seed, now on the scene came false christ, an idol, not the real one. That is producing false security, that you think you are saved and serve God, but in reality you are in a big sleep. Dream that every thing is ok. And when someone is saying the truth, you respond with 'I am tired of negative things'. 'Let me live my life' 'I have right to this, to that...'

And the whole mindset of the society, 'I have freedom' 'I have freedom to vote, to chose my leader' 'I have freedom of education' etc etc While on the same time you are slave, but you think that you have freedom. In the communism you know that you don't have 'freedom', and if you are in jail you are in jail. Here you have 'freedom' but actually you are slave to the system.

Just look how the system is made (not just in USA). Every need of God is eliminated. You don't need God because there is health system and they will take care for you. You have insurance. You have every month money, food, clothes. You have everything. And the need of God is eliminated. Without knowingly, the system is eliminating God from the scene, and the state is becoming god. And you think that all these things are benefits of the society, and not realizing that those very things has removed God slowly but surely from the throne from your heart, and they put the system and the state. And in the same time you are told that 'we are nation under God'. But the real question is, which God?

Literal picture from Revelation

I am rich,

and increased with goods,

and have need of nothing;

and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked

This kind of christianity is ready to declare that everyone who said once in his lifetime that is born again that he is truly such, without seeing the fruits. That's the way to be exposed to even greater delusion, if you believe him.

This kind of system and christianity is also producing so much false teachers and prophets, who are spreading this kind of gospel to every part of the world. So called missionaries spreading not the gospel of Christ, but some culture and system. I have seen many, they are on my town also. The harm that they have made to the gospel is indescribable.

But, there are still prophets and real teachers who warn the body of Christ. Who warn of the great falling away and the apostacy and the great sleeping. The most listened compilation on this site, the revival hymn is beginning with the words, "The church of Jesus Christ is large sleeping today, saying Please don't wake me up, I want to sleep ON" When you sleep, you are dreaming and this is not the reality. Reality is something else.

How can you sleep?

Brother Greg put this compilation some time ago. This man is saying:

"You can't say that you were not warned,
you cannot say that there was not some Noah that didn't preach to you 120 years, but you have ignored saying, WHO IS THAT MAN, oh that's just Noah, he is going to the church house, that's just Noah, he is always talking NEGATIVE, that's just Noah"

I believe that there are many, many Noah's today. Many are on this site. And God is using this site, I believe in this. To preach the serioussnes of the Gospel and warn the people and the church to wake up from the sleep.

I have heard that the talk of the end times is producing fear and negativism etc Why to produce fear? Why to be afraid of truth? Isn't our Lord coming soon to see Him? Or we want to enjoy one year more in our comforts and luxuries? In our sleep? In our pride? In our material goods? One year more of fleshly comfort? That's why we don't want to hear someone talking about the end days. What is more gloriously than to know that you will meet your Saviour?

I would like to finish the one post by brother Jim (jimdied2sin), who went pretty unnoticed:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20575&forum=35

I want to write something that will make me very unpopular. I believe that we (among the revival crowd) have a false sense that we are the repairers of the wall, when in fact many are on the verge of being handed over to the greater darkness and reprobation.

I do see how some brethren on SermonIndex tend to affix themselves on their own particular views of doctrine (including those concerned primarily with personal prophecy and study of the End Times). I don’t know that I would stray so far to say that there is a consensus of individuals (of the “revival crowd”) who are on the “[i]verge of being handed over to the greater darkness of reprobation[/i].” I have, from time to time, noticed some brethren who are almost willing to rhetorically HAND OVER (to “greater darkness of reprobation”) those who don’t completely agree with their message or doctrinal views. This can be a dangerously judgmental path to take.

I wonder how many have come here, listened to these messages, listened to Ravenhill, Wilkerson, Washer, Tozer, etc and haven't even made an effort to scale down their lifestyles so they could feed the poor or support missions, I wonder how many continue in willful sin through unbelief although their ears have heard that Christ came to purchase for himself a free and spotless bride. Brother I wonder how many here on the forum spend more time praying then watching TV. I wonder how many, as one dear brother wrote recently, are moved from their beds by the Spirit at night into a closet or bathroom to weep before God.

How long can we waver between two opinions?

If entertainment is God then serve entertainment.

If the comfort of your flesh is God then serve the comfort of your flesh.

If talking about revival is God then continue talking about the thing that you have no intention on ever paying the price for anyway.

If the American dream is God then continue to serve the American dream.

If meaningless church activities are God then continue on in them

If self preservation is God then continue to save your life, when in fact you are losing it.

If unrighteous mammon is God then continue to serve and take comfort in unrighteous mammon

But if the Lord, He is God, then turn to Him with all of your heart today. Whoever tries to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for the sake of Christ will find it!

Chris this was as respond to you, but I continued to write generally. So, not all sentences are directly to you. I hope you will understand what is to you what not. Probably this was my longest post on SI, it took hours and forgive me if the thoughts are not so much in order.

Be encouraged, my brother.

:-)