I just saw Mike Huckabee preach.

Senator Mike Huckabee is in NH right now campaigning. I had the opportunity to hear him preach at a local church. His message was about being soldiers for Christ. The sermon was really right on the mark...he held back nothing! He talked about dying for Christ and cutting ourselves away from the pleasures and comforts of this world to suffer for Christ. It reminded me of a message Brother B.H. Clendennen did a few years ago called "Soldier."

Senator Huckabee is truly a man of God!

In HIS love,

Tina

I like it when he says his Church is not one that it's like going to a funeral service, we here should be able to relate to that "some" of the threads here are like reading an obituary. :-P

Hey I can't help it my Church is like going to a football game with all the cheering and bands but were cheering for God he is our quarterback and he has never fumbled or lost a game. :-)

I would be interested in hearing his preaching, if someone knows if there are any mp3's available

I ordered a copy of the sermon. Maybe after review, Greg could make it avalible here.

I don't doubt that Huckabee is a Christian.

I do have concerns about him as president. His political record leads me to believe that he will say what he needs to say in order to woo votes from Christians. He has let the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) know that he will back their wishes. The fake war on terror will continue full force with Huckabee in the White House. Some think of this as a vote for a lesser evil. A vote for a lesser evil is still a vote for evil.

I know that this is not a political forum so I won't go on and on about Huckabee.

The anti-christ will have his day and all nations will succomb to his temporary reign. America will too. But this will also make the Church salty again. Gernerally speaking the Church in America has losty her flavour which means she is no longer a preservative. There is a faithful remnant but the Church at large needs Holy Refining Fire to burn awaway the wood stubble and hay so that she can bring glory to God. I don't see this happening unless she is shaken from her slumber.

Here is a Huckabee ad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDUQW8LUMs8

Politics cannot fix America's problems. Not Huckabee nor Ron Paul. It is not likely that abortion will stop with either of these people.
The Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights (RCAR) now called the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) was founded at 100 Marland Ave in the Methodist's Headquarters building. It has since moved.
The Methodist Church USA, Episcopal Church USA, Presbyterian Church USA, Church of Christ USA are all members. There are many more. This is one of the most powerful pro abortion lobbies in Washington and they operate in the name of God. They even have their own Chaplain.

The church needs help and no man or woman in Washington can fix her. Only Jesus can and He will. It will be no fun to the flesh but we will experience fellowship with each other that will be sweater than we have ever known.

I think it is time for the hirelings to flee

We need to seek God's face. I also find it helpful to find out how our brothers and sisters live in the 10-40 window.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."
~Sinclair Lewis 1935

Blessings to all as we continue to harvest in the Father's fields.

ironwood

Hi ironwood...

I do have concerns about him as president. His political record leads me to believe that he will say what he needs to say in order to woo votes from Christians. He has let the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) know that he will back their wishes.

The fake war on terror will continue full force with Huckabee in the White House.

Some think of this as a vote for a lesser evil. A vote for a lesser evil is still a vote for evil

The anti-christ will have his day and all nations will succomb to his temporary reign. America will too.

But this will also make the Church salty again. Gernerally speaking the Church in America has losty her flavour which means she is no longer a preservative.

It is not likely that abortion will stop with either of these people.
The Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights (RCAR) now called the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) was founded at 100 Marland Ave in the Methodist's Headquarters building. It has since moved.
The Methodist Church USA, Episcopal Church USA, Presbyterian Church USA, Church of Christ USA are all members. There are many more. This is one of the most powerful pro abortion lobbies in Washington and they operate in the name of God. They even have their own Chaplain.

The church needs help and no man or woman in Washington can fix her. Only Jesus can and He will. It will be no fun to the flesh but we will experience fellowship with each other that will be sweater than we have ever known.

I think it is time for the hirelings to flee

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."
~Sinclair Lewis 1935

I can't say that I would definitely VOTE for Mike Huckabee, but I am grateful for a man of convictions.

:-(

By the way, forgive my questions. I don't mean anything personal by this. I just would prefer that we use clear and unblemished rhetoric if we are going to make comments on such matters.

(I don't know how to quote Ironwood's post)

Mate, you can just say that you support Ron Paul. ;)

Actually, there are quite a few Christians who support Ron, [url=www.ChristiansforRonPaul.com]Christians for Ron Paul[/url]

To be completely honest, I think Mike is *probably* a Christian. (I've met a pastor who didn't get saved until after 25 years of ministry) One can never be sure...

I'm not gonna get into any political arguments. My friend actually went so far out of line to tell me that he KNEW Huckabee was a Christian and that Paul was not. Unfortunately, people get so riled up emotionally in support for the "Christian" candidate.

I frankly just don't want an outspoken Christian being hypocritical in his positions, like our current president has done. Huckabee's background is indicative of Bush's, say one thing, do another. That's it in a nutshell...that, and I don't want to get drafted into Iran. ;) Whatever happens, all to the glory of God.

Again, I'm not here to argue points. I've been attacked by a few other Christians (not on any sites or online), but close friends have gotten angry with me for supporting someone other than the quote and quote "Christian" candidate.

Besides, I think we can all agree it is better to preach to a lost Communist who then becomes a Communist Christian than to debate with a lost Communist who becomes a Capitalist Heathen. ;)

Hi everyone.

I share Chris's concern on this again, as in the other thread. I think we all need help to both remember and do what the Lord said in Matthew 10:16. And to walk as it was written of Him in Isaiah 11:2-5 and 42:19-20.

i recently saw hucklebee on you tube and i was amazed to see a politition stand up for creation rather then evolution and he used alot of wisdom to anwser the questions thrown at him. the creation vs evolution is a huge debate and has divided christian groups and athiest based groups through out the world. To take such a stance politically could make him break or great through the voting system and he would know this through his advisors. i respect any man that stands by his principles, good for him. "the smallest light is still the brightest in a dark room" Mr hucklebbee will be under huge spiritual pressure from the enemy for making this stance, so it makes a perfect opportunity to pray that God will keep his mind towards Christ and not man. i was going to make a comment about the anti christ but i'll make a seperate post for that. cheers all

I believe that 911 was a false flag attack by those pulling the strings in Washington and that Bin Laden was a paid scapegoat. Bin Laden was admitted to a hospital in Bahrain treated by an American doctor and seen by State Department agents all the while he was on the top of the FBI's most wanted list.
Al-Qaeda was created by the CIA and it is coloquial Arabic for "sitting on the toilet". After the cold war a new nightmare had to be created for the military industrial complex. Fear is it's lifeblood. The new monster is Militant Islam. It is used to scare Americans in to giving up liberty for security.

Hitler used the same tactics. The Germans were told that the root of all of their problems were the Jews. The very few powerful Jews who controlled much of Germany's industry declared an international boycot on German goods after WWI. This brought Germany to her knees. Only a very small minority were responsible but Hitler portrayed all Jews as responsible and he had the help of Henry Ford to put a copy of "The Learned Elders of Zion" in every German household. Almost all Germans were either Catholic or Lutheran yet Hitler managed to sway 85% of Germany.

Iraq was never a threat to America and no Americans were killed by Iraqis before Desert Storm. Saddam was a true monster to the Kurds and to his political enemies. Before Desert Storm, Iraq was the safest country in the Middle East for Arab Christians. They were safer there than in Israel. Saddam did not target Christians and he did not promote hard core Sharia law like Saudi Arabia does. Saddam has never been linked to 911. Saddam did not allow safe haven for Al-Qaeda operatives. He hated them.
Now Christians are being hunted down like animals and every sort of terrorist can be found in Iraq.

Huckabee is a preacher but he has let the war machine know that he will continue their imperial conquests. This is how he rose from being obscure to one of the frontrunners. The same media ploy was used to get Carter and Bush in to the White House.
Carter's National Security Advisor, Brzezinski, was a marxist and the Carter administration made bold leaps for the globalists.

Huckabee may be sincere in his faith and he should be lauded for standing up for the Gospel. If he makes it to the White House he will continue the sending off of our sons and daughters to the battlefield to be slaughtered in an illegal war against a phantom enemy. The politics of nightmares.

Not one American is safer since the bloody trillion dollar war. We are in fact less safe.
If Huckabee is not aware of these things then it would not be prudent to put him in the White House. If he is aware of these things then he is ignoring them for personal gain.

Hello ironwood...

Did you know that if you are wrong in any of the things that you claim (without any proof or evidence, no less), then you are guilty of powerful public slander. Do you ANY evidence to support your outrageous claims?

Or is this just hearsay?

:-(

*EDIT...
The burden or proof should remain with the one who made the allegation in the first place.

I believe that 911 was a false flag attack by those pulling the strings in Washington and that Bin Laden was a paid scapegoat...

Al-Qaeda was created by the CIA and it is coloquial Arabic for "sitting on the toilet"....

After the cold war a new nightmare had to be created for the military industrial complex. Fear is it's lifeblood. The new monster is Militant Islam. It is used to scare Americans in to giving up liberty for security.

Did you know that if you are wrong...

If? :-?

MC

I think Mike is well aware that proclaiming Jesus' name will cost HIM votes but he is doing it anyway.

I would say the exact opposite happened.

60% of Republican Voters in Iowa considered themselves Born Again/Evangelical. Huckabee got 46% of that vote. That means 27% of his total 34% came from born again evangelicals. Only 7% did not come from born again evangelicals.

I think proclaiming Jesus name won him Iowa.

I frankly just don't want an outspoken Christian being hypocritical in his positions, like our current president has done. Huckabee's background is indicative of Bush's, say one thing, do another

This is my biggest problem with the man. I would not call out a Christian for believing in a more socialistic form of big-governmetn, big spending etc....but to totally deny it all, and even try and hide your past record through using shifty, dodging words, I think is dishonest and hypocritical.

I also think it does not do the Kingdom any benefit for the lost around us to think that Christianity is the biggest supporter of the wars in the middle east.

So many Christians have aligned themselves with the Republican Party/Conservative Talk Radio that the difference it's really almost impossible to divide.

Here is a creative "speech" where Huckabee receives a phone call from God. As much as I disagree, this kind of thing, it is what is winning him this election.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yj_okz7ZwI

Actually, there are quite a few Christians who support Ron, Christians for Ron Paul

Although he probably won't win, I am voting for him.

He's not the savior for the US, but he is honest, and he doesn't believe in invading other countries and casting them into bloody violent civil wars.

He also believes that Government should not dictate morals through laws, but that those things should be affected by the church....so he won't legislate against "vices" - he believes in choice. At least the armenians on the board here would agree with that :-)

Lastly, he feels that flaunting his faith in order to get votes is distasteful, and has been critical of politicians who do that.

I think that lines up fairly well with Christian principles. Let the governmetn govern, and let the Church do the job of fighting moral evils of society.

Hi,
I did not slander Huckabee. I said that I do not know his motives.

Here is his speach to the Council on Foreign relations (CFR) from their own website. They liked what he said.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/14335/

Huckabee mentions that he supports General Petraeus who is a mamber of the CFR.

The CFR was founded by the Marxist Col. Mandell House in 1922 with the sole purpose of creating a socialist America after the likes of the former USSR and present day China. This is not conspiracy theory. These are documented facts. The CFR virtually controls both the Democratic and Republican parties. Remember the last election? We had a choice between Bush and Kerry, bonesman "A" or bonesman "B". This is no choice at all. Either one would have furthered the CFR's globalist agenda.

The CFR publishes the magazine "Foreign Affairs". What you read in this publication today is US policy tomorrow. They are also the brains behind NAFTA, and the NAU.

I said that I don't know if Huckabee is aware of this or not. If he is unaware then he will be dangerous to America. If he is aware then shame on him. I don't know. This is not slander.

I do know that once the CFR was confident that Huckabee was on their side his ratings skyrocketed.

**************************

Jesus said that "My sheep hear My voice".

Another one may say the right words but the voice is diffrent and the sheep will not respond to it.

The CFR is on a globalist mission towards a one world government just as is mentioned in the book of Revelations. I find it odd that a preacher of the Gospel would not warn this den of vipers. Unless he needed their endorsement.

Mr Iron Wood you apear to be well versed in your arguments on Governments and i commend your passion. No matter who gets into the presidents seat their performance and the mercy of the lord upon America will still be waged against the morality of the nation in whole. It is physically frustrating to see the deceptions and the decaying morals with in our leaders today but that is physical fleshly frustration that will never be won through the polls "WE wrestle not against flesh and blood but against........" God will make changes to our nation when we as christians start to become true kings and priests and take the fight up through true spiritual prayer.

Jesus has always been on the throne my question would be Why has he allowed these Pharohs to rule your land? in these times it is the true saints of God that is heard in the heavens when they cry out for their falling nation. If the nation continues to fall then Gods anger is still against it because of the blood upon the lands. Evil men rule when Godly men do nothing.

At this point with the lack of knowledge i do have of your running candidates to rule. I would rather hucklebee because if he believes and stands by at least 5% of what he has proclaimed then he will either fall hard if he goes against his own principles or he will make a difference. "A house divided by it's self cannot stand"

America will have some testing times ahead which will reach all of us, hopefully the burning furnise will seperate the goo from the gold!

just my thoughts if a made a mistake forgive me i am very tired and now going home see ya all.

Hi again everyone.

I agree again with Chris, shouldn't the burnden to prove accusations be on the one that made them?

In the Law it was written...

"Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbor: I am the LORD."

- Leviticus chapter 19 verse 16(KJV)

Hi Bomar

So many Christians have aligned themselves with the Republican Party/Conservative Talk Radio that the difference it's really almost impossible to divide.

I couldn't say statistically, but I personally get the sense that this is changing. It seems I've encountered more and more conservative Christians who find themselves unable to identify themselves with the Republican party as it is currently constituted. They aren't democrats either. Politically they see themselves closer to something like being disenfranchised, (though not un-empowered to vote of course.)

Blessings,

MC

I personally feel Politics and Preaching are two different animals it's about like asking a Doctor to repair your car the Doctor would be clueless and without a strategy, to be the President you have to have a total strategy "the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war" does Mike Huckabee have all this? I don't know but the vote he gets will tell.

We should vote for the best man(not woman) for President.

I guess this mean that Mrs. Clinton doesn't get your vote then, eh? :)

reformer wrote:

He has also come out recanted not having a theological degree...he didn't finish seminary.

I guess I am confussed. Did he lie and say he had a theological degree, or is it that he preaches without one? If the latter, this should have no bering on electability.

It is hard for me to believe a blood bought believer who is following Christ with passion could be President, that person would have to hold to a higher standard. We all know that there are un-ethical things that Presidents or politicians do! I don't see how a Christian would be able to perform the duty of the Presidents office, you have to be mindful of all religions, people, industries and so forth. There is to much compromising in government.

Mike

There is a difference between being tolerant of an unbeliever and running the nation as a believer. I tell you what, without the help of the Lord there is no way that any man could run the nation in a godly fashion.

May the Lord's will be done in this election.

Hi ironwood…

I did not slander Huckabee. I said that I do not know his motives.

Huckabee is a preacher but he has let the war machine know that he will continue their imperial conquests. This is how he rose from being obscure to one of the frontrunners. The same media ploy was used to get Carter and Bush in to the White House.
Carter's National Security Advisor, Brzezinski, was a marxist and the Carter administration made bold leaps for the globalists.

Huckabee may be sincere in his faith and he should be lauded for standing up for the Gospel. If he makes it to the White House he will continue the sending off of our sons and daughters to the battlefield to be slaughtered in an illegal war against a phantom enemy. The politics of nightmares.

I believe that 911 was a false flag attack by those pulling the strings in Washington and that Bin Laden was a paid scapegoat. Bin Laden was admitted to a hospital in Bahrain treated by an American doctor and seen by State Department agents all the while he was on the top of the FBI's most wanted list.
Al-Qaeda was created by the CIA and it is coloquial Arabic for "sitting on the toilet". After the cold war a new nightmare had to be created for the military industrial complex. Fear is it's lifeblood. The new monster is Militant Islam. It is used to scare Americans in to giving up liberty for security.

Not one American is safer since the bloody trillion dollar war. We are in fact less safe.
If Huckabee is not aware of these things then it would not be prudent to put him in the White House. If he is aware of these things then he is ignoring them for personal gain.

Huckabee mentions that he supports General Petraeus who is a mamber of the CFR.

The CFR was founded by the Marxist Col. Mandell House in 1922 with the sole purpose of creating a socialist America after the likes of the former USSR and present day China. This is not conspiracy theory. These are documented facts. The CFR virtually controls both the Democratic and Republican parties. Remember the last election? We had a choice between Bush and Kerry, bonesman "A" or bonesman "B". This is no choice at all. Either one would have furthered the CFR's globalist agenda.

The CFR publishes the magazine "Foreign Affairs". What you read in this publication today is US policy tomorrow. They are also the brains behind NAFTA, and the NAU.

I said that I don't know if Huckabee is aware of this or not. If he is unaware then he will be dangerous to America. If he is aware then shame on him. I don't know. This is not slander.

Jesus said that "My sheep hear My voice".

Another one may say the right words but the voice is diffrent and the sheep will not respond to it.

The CFR is on a globalist mission towards a one world government just as is mentioned in the book of Revelations. I find it odd that a preacher of the Gospel would not warn this den of vipers. Unless he needed their endorsement.

In truth, the world [u]is[/u] headed for the terrible end that is mentioned in the book of Revelation (and Matthew, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc…). However, when we begin a chase after these things that we incorrectly suppose to be true, then we tend to follow after those things that confirm our own suspicions. This is, as brother ChrisJD said, drawing from polluted streams. We need to be far more wise in these matters.

:-(

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I never said that you slandered [i]Huckabee[/i], although your post tends to act as though you somehow know his motives

Actually, this is called Libel.

Main Entry: 1li·bel
Pronunciation: \\ˈlī-bəl\\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, written declaration, from Anglo-French, from Latin libellus, diminutive of liber book
Date: 14th century
1 a: a written statement in which a plaintiff in certain courts sets forth the cause of action or the relief sought barchaic : a handbill especially attacking or defaming someone
[b]2 a: a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression b (1): a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2): defamation of a person by written or representational means (3): the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4): the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel[/b]
[url=http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/libel]Libel - Merriam-Websters[/url]

2 cents

Hi dorcas…

So would you RATHER believe a conspiracy theory based upon NOTHING more than rumor?

In this nation, the media is NOT bound by a “code of silence.” This is articulated through the First Amendment and the protection afforded that brought Nixon to resignation (and Bill Clinton’s sexual romps to light). If the media found ANYTHING that would suggest that there was an underlying conspiracy in regard to 9/11 (as ironwood has claimed), then the media would report it, and report it and report it and…well, you get the picture.

This is not about “seeing what I want to see.” It is all about NOT BELIEVING a conspiracy that is completely and utterly baseless. Like I have stated several times, the burden of proof for such conspiracy theories should fall upon the person who makes such accusations. In this case, there is NO EVIDENCE to substantiate the claims made by ironwood in regard to 9/11, the war in Iraq, or the Council of Foreign Relations (of which I have substantial knowledge).

If your several accusations that ironwood is lying, are based solely on your faith in the published data of governments, you are risking your credibility, sad to say, even if he can't 'prove' anything.

I say this in all sincerity... that you don't seem to know what is going on in the world, according to an agenda that is not secret... which has been moving forward for centuries.

Perhaps you think the things which are prophesied are going to happen without anyone really realising what is going on... like a kind of enormous cosmic accident that God Himself has orchestrated without the knowledge of men? When actually, for men to be decieved by the greater deceptions which are coming, there must also be deceivers - liars - who are willing to say the exact opposite of the truth about themselves and their actions, just like the serpent said to Eve: you shall not die.

When “conspiracy-minded” believers make such public, outlandish claims, it really makes believers look rather stupid.

I've been on the receiving end of this kind of ministry, and I don't doubt you have too. But you seem still to believe what you've been told, as if you haven't allowed a shadow of doubt to cross your mind.

I realise that would be uncomfortable. We have to work through that discomfort with the Lord's help and strength. But please take this risk, if only to confirm with coroborrative evidence, that what the government has said is true.

Believe me, if I found any evidence that would validate such rumors, I would let you know. I would let the world know. I would publish it throughout the world and the Body of Christ. But you know what I have found? These ridiculous conspiracy theories are usually believed only by those who [i]want[/i] to believe them. But the “bottom line” is that ironwood has written some outlandish theories that are unsupported by fact.

I do have to say... that the BBC went to town on the fact that a twelve year old PhD thesis was the only documentary evidence the US was prepared to publish, to support the lie that there were WMD still hidden in Iraq.

Dorcas, I am not saying that we should believe the government (or governments) in all matters. However, I am saying that we should NOT BELIEVE a conspiracy theory that is based upon, uh, nothing. That is what ironwood presented. He presented a set of bizarre conspiracy theories that have no evidence to substantiate their validity. We don’t need this sort of misinformation to “prove” the things that will transpire in the last days. We know that the end will come, we just aren’t entirely sure about every detail concerning how it will come about. We don’t need to believe the government, but we don’t need to invent or spread fallacious material about it either. This spreading of rumors should have no place in the Body of Christ.

:-(

Kritters Quote: "I think someone who was uncompromising and held themselves to a higher godly standard than the average politician would be a breath of fresh air to most Americans."

Well said Kritter.

My vote for President from among all the Presidential candidates "on all sides" is:
(D)None of the above.

However, if it was my job to appoint one from among the available candidates it would be Mike Huckabee.

The fact that his name is not Al,Hillary,or Bill.

Coupled with the fact that he can sing Amazing Grace through his nose, and can play the fiddle ought to count for something.

Not to mention the fact that he speaks a dialect of American Hillbilly that I understand. 8-)

Clutch :-P

I've said much less to a new member and then even apologized and yet even after apologizing have been corrected for it. Or banned multiple times for less.

I beg to differ. :-(

In the case between you and I - on the "Message to Woman" thread on Devotional Thoughts - I only asked that you not judge the author's salvation - then asked to be banned, because I saw my point of not judging another's salvation was not being seen.

Annie, nobody was judging anyone's salvation on that thread. Error was detected and exposed, and when you were repeatedly asked to stop meddling by a moderator, you did a free for all and committed hari kari. The reason your point of not judging another's salvation was not seen, was because it wasn't there, and others attested to it.

And I thank you for your contributions as well.

Paul

Wow! after reading some of the posts on this thread it makes me feel normal at least temporarily, thanks guys and gals I needed that little lift. :-P

Philip. 2:1-16
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, [2] Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. [3] Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. [4] Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. [5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. [13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. [14] Do all things without murmurings and disputings: [15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; [16] Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Rev. 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Quote,
"ANYTHING that would suggest that there was an underlying conspiracy in regard to 9/11 (as ironwood has claimed), then the media would report it, and report it and report it and…well, you get the picture."

Not really,

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years....It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."

David Rockefeller - Bilderberg Meeting - June 1991 - Baden, Germany

The major media is in the hands of only a few people and they are in bed with the globalists because the globalists own them. The CEO's of the major media/news companies know better than to go potty where they eat.

This isn't theory.

HAARP, GWEN and Telsa technology are theories. Who shot JFK and Lincoln are theories. The controlled media is not a theory. The CFR, Trilaterals and Bilderbergs are not theories.

One of the weapons in the globalist aresenal is to label anyone who would bring their evil deeds to light a "conspiracy kook".

The evidence is not hard to find but there is a lot of garbage out there in cyberspace. The evidence points to the truth in the book of Revelations. There will be a one world government headed by the anti-christ. His spirit has been manifest on earth since Genesis but one day he will manifest himself in a single entity.

But all of this is nonsense if we are not seeking God's face. There is no benefit in knowing these things if we are not found hidden in Jesus.

Remember... The anti-christ will be so slick that even the elect are warned not to succomb to his lies.

Blessings

ironwood

With so many conspiracies, rabbit holes, and alternative histories to keep track of I think we have the beginnings of a whole new spin-off website.

"Skullduggery Index"

MC

HE_Reigns…

This is nonsense. Our brother (ironwood) stated a few things that are inarguably false (for example, his assertions about the Council of Foreign Relations). If they are not TRUE, then what are they? I’m aware that he may have uttered this in sincerity, but this information was offered as FACT in order to PERSUADE. That is why I reacted as I did. There were other things that he uttered (such as the supposed “inside job” for the events of 9/11) that are completely bogus to anyone who has ever performed serious study into the matter. Of course, no “proof” was provided to substantiate such a claim. In addition, it would be impossible for us to counter such a claim that has no basis in reality.

I invite you to correct me if I were found in a wrong in any of my statements. Contrary to what I have been accused when countering some of the more outlandish claims, I am not on the side of any individual, group, organization or government. I feel obliged to counter those things that I believe to be distortions of the truth. I also hope that others would afford me the same opportunity. If I utter something that is not grounded in truth, then by all means, correct me.

This is the problem with such conspiracy theories, and why they are against the policy of SermonIndex. People have, from time to time, introduced their ideas that there is some vast, great conspiracy that is presently at work in this world. There are many places on the web that give place to such unsubstantiated rumors and conspiracy theories (like some of the ones that you provided, Annie). How is it that people give more credence to these outlandish conspiracy theories than to what is introduced and constantly displayed by a majority of the free press?

Indeed, I agree that there is a conspiracy – but it operates in heavenly realms. God is not at all surprised or confined to the time table of human history (nor our ideas concerning any time table). There will certainly be some difficult times in store for believers in the last days. People are dying for their faith in our Lord EVERY SINGLE DAY. But the events that will transpire before the end are just not completely identifiable. I don’t care how much a person has studied Biblical eschatology; I do not believe that a person can know every single detail of every event in prophecy. To claim so is extra-Biblical. In addition, it is harmful to the cause of true Biblical eschatology to invent or spread claims that are just not based upon reality.

How can we defend the claims (of Brother ironwood) that 9/11 was an inside job? How can he make many of the other preposterous claims? There is NO PROOF to validate such nonsense! Not only is much of this information unsubstantiated, but more importantly, it is told as fact in the hope of persuading others. This is wrong. It has no place amongst believers! His “dialogue” might have been different if it was created as a means of discussion about those things that he has seen. But this information was presented as TRUTH.

Over the past week, you have defended the right to utter such conspiracies in another thread (the one which discussed claims of a “secret superhighway” in Texas, the secret “Amero” coin and “secret meetings” between President Bush, Canada and Mexico to create a single government in the Northern Hemisphere). In that thread, I was assailed for pointing out the fiction in the above claims. Do you not see the problem with this pattern? No one was arguing with my presentation of the facts. Yet I was lectured several times anyway. Why? In the end, I was merely trying to distinguish between FACT and FICTION. Too often, people incorrectly present their assumptions, rumors, gossip, and hearsay as fact. We should never fear to question the things that are presented to us. In fact, we should always have such a Berean type of attitude – where we respect TRUTH over the things that are presented (especially as identified in the Word of God). In the case of the “secret superhighway,” the facts spoke for themselves.

I understand those who feel the need to search through conspiracies. I know of a professor who quietly believes to this day that the Kennedy assassination was the result of a secret conspiracy between just about everyone in the world to kill the president. A few years ago, I read through some of the recently released information that was part of the KGB files concerning the Kennedy assassination. The KGB concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald probably acted alone in the killing. They warned the Soviet machinery about the damage that could result from a single, crazed individual. Yet I suppose that it is easier to believe in a conspiracy than to realize that a single person can literally change the course of the world.

Again, I do believe that certain things will transpire before the coming of our Lord. Some things seem quite obvious from the Scriptures. However, there are other things that just aren’t that obvious. We should, of course, be cautious of all things. But we should not give an ear to (or repeat) mere rumor or conspiracy just because it fits into our ideas about the “last days” puzzle.

I would recommend to ironwood that he repent of claiming such theories as fact. He should issue a disclaimer if he is unable to distinguish between those things that are true and those things that are opinion.

:-(

Brother ironwood...

HAARP, GWEN and Telsa technology are theories. Who shot JFK and Lincoln are theories. The controlled media is not a theory. The CFR, Trilaterals and Bilderbergs are not theories.

One of the weapons in the globalist aresenal is to label anyone who would bring their evil deeds to light a "conspiracy kook".

Remember, we will be held accountable for every idle word that we utter.

:-(

I was going to reply a post about the politics but i won't as it would be about 9 pages long. I think that we all can testify with in our spirit that soemthing is not right and sinister in the buildings of power today. Good strong Christians have written about these topics for about 25 years now with great detail and many of the ideals have come to pass. What does the lord ask us to do in these times! one thing i know for sure is that no matter who rules what country, it is the people that decide their future either through the polling booths or rebellion.

A true revival starts with each individual and overflows to the rest. When i stand before my father on the day that he has alloted for me, i can say with confidence that his question will not be "who did you vote for at the elections" but rather "My son i gave you a task to get sinners to repent and were you faithfull to this commission" stand up in your house, community and state as a light for the lord Jesus christ.

Satan wants us to fight in the flesh thats why he invades our homes and work places with media, if you show a people their is no hope they basically get depressed and die with in them selves. Does prayer work yes Keith Daniels said in one of his audios that a false prophet was preaching to thousands of people, so he had a quiet prayer to the lord and the man was stopped in his tracks straight away. that is amazing!

lets not give satan all the glory in these days, Gods power is moving strongly for his people and we need to put our eye's on that.

"This is nonsense. Our brother (ironwood) stated a few things that are inarguably false (for example, his assertions about the Council of Foreign Relations)."

WOW!! Awsome!

No offence taken.

Only a viable realtionship with Jesus will give us the strength to endure to the end.

Blessings to all who labor in the Father's fields.

Your brother

ironwood

"Skullduggery Index"

It's sad but this is what it's coming to. Dare I say these forums are long overdue a reformation. We need to return back to honest-to-goodness Bible meditations, devotions, focusings on revival, holiness, purity. The old paths. Leave all this other stuff behind and go to Calvary.

Has anyone else noticed how badly we're straying? Please, brethren...let us open our eyes.

Brother Paul

PaulWest wrote:
We need to return back to honest-to-goodness Bible meditations, devotions, focusings on revival, holiness, purity. Leave all this other nonsense behind.
Brother Paul

Amen! on that Brother Paul and might I add to your list Pastor bashing as other nonsense we need to leave behind. :-)

Hi Dorcas...

I suppose that the difference is that our brother has not presented ANY information behind the rationale for his claims. He has every right to believe that the United States was behind the events of 9/11 (no matter how utterly ridiculous such a notion may be). He can believe that the Bush Administration orchestrated a conspiracy in order to begin an extremely costly (and as ironwood calls it, [i]fake[/i]) war out of the motivation for oil, revenge, or even mere hatred for Arabs. The fact remains that ironwood has presented NO FACTS to validate his suspicions. Where is the evidence that has caused him to believe such things?

But this is exactly what your sources have done. That's why your opinion, based on your research, has brought you to your current conclusion. Where else have you researched, to find out the other sides of the stories? There must be plenty of other sources, if your press is not bound by any freedom of information strictures.... even as I write that last sentence, I can hardly believe you don't see the improbability of it being true that there are no secrets!

The bottom line (again) is that ironwood introduced as "fact" some wildly outlandish information for which he did not (and cannot) support with evidence. You don't have to agree with my "sources" -- no matter how diverse they may be. However, why will you not do the same with ironwood's claims? Why do you hold his claims to a lesser standard? The burden of proof should rest primarily upon the person making such bold claims.

:-(

might I add to your list Pastor bashing as other nonsense we need to leave behind.

I understand how you feel, brother Bill. I'm totally against bashing anyone in these forums... though I am a proponent of exposing error if need be, and letting the tree lie where it falls. I know it hurts when the tree that's cut down happens to be your own beloved, but sometimes a man has to put his own sick dog down. If my pastor were preaching error and leading multitudes astray, I would hope someone would intervene. I may not appreciate it now, but after I get knowledge, I would be very grateful.

Hey, if you had a black mark on your face - and didn't know it - wouldn't you want someone to tell you?

I won't push the issue.

What is important is that we keep our eyes on Jesus.

We will have plenty of time to discuss these things in civilain detention camps.

I agree to disagree and still walk in love and unity with my brothers and sisters.

Psalms 133
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brothers to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious oil upon the head, Coming down upon the beard, Even Aaron's beard, Coming down upon the edge of his robes.It is like the dew of Hermon Coming down upon the mountains of Zion; For there the LORD commanded R4246 the blessing, life forever.

I did do some extensive research (I'm being childish now) about modern buildings.

I found out the exact time when a modern steel reinforced skyscraper could fall in it's own footprint at freefall speed complete with the powderization of it's concrete content by the mere combustion of jet fuel.

Here is the exact time:

"when pigs fly"

Sorry... had to get that out.

I love you guys and gals!

PaulWest wrote:
I understand how you feel, brother Bill. I'm totally against bashing anyone in these forums... though I am a proponent of exposing error if need be, and letting the tree lie where it falls. .

There are a number of things that the Bible says God hates. One of those things according to Proverbs 6:19 is the person "...that soweth discord among brethren." This is often the result of personality conflicts. Paul deals with this issue in Philippians 4:2. The fact is personal squabbles are to be settled privately.

moe_mac wrote:
.
Matt 18:15-17

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
(from New International Version)

Yes I agree and if you or anyone else has ever taken these steps in the sequence the word say well that fine but don't put the cart before the horse in scriptures, has anyone here really went to any Pastor they were bashing gone and show him his fault, just between the two of you I doubt it, it's easier to hide behind a keyboard for most.

Hi ironwood...

I did do some extensive research (I'm being childish now) about modern buildings.

I found out the exact time when a modern steel reinforced skyscraper could fall in it's own footprint at freefall speed complete with the powderization of it's concrete content by the mere combustion of jet fuel.

Here is the exact time:

"when pigs fly"

:-(

There are a number of things that the Bible says God hates. One of those things according to Proverbs 6:19 is the person "...that soweth discord among brethren." This is often the result of personality conflicts. Paul deals with this issue in Philippians 4:2. The fact is personal squabbles are to be settled privately.

Yes, I agree. The issue, unfortunately, comes in with the public nature of forums. Thousands view these threads daily, and when a particular thread pops up with an individual's name attached to it; i.e. Joel Osteen or Rick Warren, it's public game to either yea or nay. Where it becomes "iffy" is when two people suddenly go head-to-head over it. This is when it's time to take it behind the curtain, into PM land.

You are right to say that personal squabbles should be taken outside. I tell you, friend, many come into SI just to watch the ringside. A Spurgeon devotion will get two, maybe three comments (if that), but a blow-for-blow between Osteen and Wilkerson will generate over 100 comments easily. Tickets go fast! If these brawls would go outside, there would be nothing to watch, nothing to rubberneck.

Personally, I already know who's going down in the first 5 seconds of round one, KO, the paramedics rushing to the scene - with the funeral hearse arriving at last. But others want to see the blood, the gore, the frantic efforts at resusitation, the CPR, the screams.

Brother Paul

Man now thats some funny stuff Brother Paul I am still laughing, O Lord I can't quit laughing. :-P

Leave all this other stuff behind and go to Calvary.

Amen.

moe_mac wrote:
.I think the key is not getting bent out of shape with others views, only answering with what we believe to be truth. Unfortunately, Sermonindex is not a place for thin skinned people, I have had my feelings hurt here on SI and I'm sure everyone else has too. .
moe_mac

Hey I don't know if you were talking about me or not but for the record,I am not thin skinned at all matter fact most that know me here would say I am very thicked skinned for all the stuff in the past 3 years I have been here that has been dished out about my Pastor. Hey you or anyone else can't bash anyone it don't matter to me personally, I will support my Pastor through Prayer or whatever until death do us part or "God" tells me different this is just the way I am I trust God and what he tells me not man. It don't hurt my feelings what someone else says, they have to answer for what they say not me. Hey I do realize some folks just get bored in life and need to amuse themselves or others and I would never stop someone from rejoicing from what the say or believe. :-P

This is the sillyist thread I've read all day. Thank you brother Paul West for revealing to me some truth about myself. I am learning a ton from this thread, and none of it has to do with Mike Huckabee or conspiracies.

Doesn't the word "sillyist" look silly?

Mike Huckabee is involved and he has his policies advised by Richard Haus one of the leaders of the Council on Foreign Relations. This worried me because the CFR is openly a globalist organization. However I watched this video where he was asked by an individual about the situation. He said that there are good people in the organization and that Richard is a patriot and is for the sovereignty of the US. SO either there is some truth in that, or it is true, or Huckabee is deceived, or Huckabee is lying. I would personally not think he was lying but who knows. See it for yourself:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGxMdNCjfRU]click here[/url]

Hi everyone.

Isn't it true that rulers receive their power from God?(Romans 13:1, Daniel 4:17)

And shouldn't we use caution in how we speak about them?(Exodus 22:28, Acts 23:1-5).

Chris

Hi Dorcas, and greetings to you also :)

About this,

"Do you mean that we should not be honest about how we find them?"

Do you think that John 8:26 could inform us on this?

And do you think we should go looking under rocks and in holes to find out what is evil?

Chris

Hi dorcas…

I don’t mean to sound like I am accusing you of being “gullible.” That is NOT my intention. I am simply fed up with conspiracy theories that are presented as fact without any “evidence” to substantiate such claims. Then, when a brother or sister points out the inconsistencies within the claims provided, they are attacked all around as if they are attacking God, a person’s belief about prophecy, or someone’s “discernment” about such matters.

In this case (as was true with the case about the “secret superhighway”), a brother presented an outrageous claim as FACT. He claimed that the US government actually paid off Osama bin Laden in order to take the fall for the events of 9/11 – which he alleged were orchestrated by a US conspiracy. He presented no evidence or proof upon which he bases these claims (except later to claim to have performed “research” about the way a “modern building” falls – again, with no supporting evidence).

It is one thing to distrust the government. It is another thing to distrust the media. It is yet another thing to distrust all avenues of media, government and academia. Such doubt is certainly understandable and can even be applauded if correctly applied to information. The first step when taught proper research methods is to question everything – including established fact. However, there are times when the government is NOT lying. There are times when the media is NOT lying. There are times when academia (and even a professor at a “liberal institution”) is NOT lying. Information and research should be digested in a manner that is rightly divided by what we know to be TRUTH. Yet this is not the case here. No sources were provided for these allegations. No proof was provided to base such claims. No information was given that contradicts the collective evidence provided by the government, the media, academia, and nonpartisan historians and fact-finders. Why should we believe such these CONSPIRACY THEORIES that don’t even offer proof to substantiate these claims? In the end, we cannot cross examine or compare evidence – because the conspiracy theory doesn’t provide any!

In regard to the CFR, all I know is what I can tell you from my experience with them. I have attended closed CFR meetings (while performing research on my dissertation). The organization is exactly what the website says it is – a “think tank.” In other words, it is just a group of “important people” from a wide range of backgrounds, beliefs, occupations and political ideas who “put their heads together” from time to time to discuss the current role of the United States in foreign policy. There are individuals from a wide variety of backgrounds involved in that organization (including one who sits upon my research committee). There are Republicans, Democrats, Independents and even a few who seem ambivalent to politics in general. They have no authority to pass any sort of legislation whatsoever! There was no “one-world government conspiracy” at work within their rhetoric. In fact, it was quite to the contrary! By their rhetoric, you could accuse them of preferring the affairs of the United States above the rest of the world. In fact, some of them even made comments about “who cares what the rest of the world thinks” in certain matters. Those guys can’t even agree on national politics – let alone the notion of a single, governing body! To insist (without “proof” no less) that the organization is striving to create a one-world government is just not based upon reality. It is, yet again, an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

When I said that the “burden of proof” should fall upon the person making bold claims, I meant what I said. Conspiracy theories are based upon what? I find it interesting that those given to conspiracy theories will accept “information” that validates their theories while rejecting evidence from major sources (that usually do not even like one another; i.e. journalists and the government). So where do these conspiracy theories come from? What “extensive research” (based upon credible science) did ironwood use to come to the conclusion that the World Trade Center’s collapse was suspicious? What evidence did he see that would cause him to believe that Osama bin Laden was “paid off” by the US government concerning the events of 9/11? What makes him believe that there were no WMDs in Iraq – when my Uncle Frank (a Christian) was actually in Iraq dismantling and destroying them (along with other “illegal” weapons; I have photos, btw)?!?

Sister, I have met many people over my time in the Church who base their beliefs upon their “gift of discernment.” Too often today, this “gift of discernment” is yet another word for “gift of suspicion.” When I usually hear of this “gift” today, I generally roll my eyes (internally) and wait to test their claims by what the Word says (first and foremost) and by sound research. A few weeks ago, my wife and I spoke with a person who claimed to have “had a vision” of the rapture and the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb.” I personally lean toward a belief that a “rapture” might occur before the time of God’s wrath. But do I truly believe that this woman had a “vision” about this event? I can’t say that I do. I’m not saying that she [i]didn’t[/i] have a vision, a daydream or a dream. But this thing could have been induced by what she truly [u]believes[/u] will happen.

I feel that the same is true with those who chase after the various conspiracy theories. We all know what the Word says about the last days. Some things are extremely well played out in the Scriptures. We know of a mark, the Abomination of Desolation, the battle at Megiddo, and even the various portions of God’s wrath. But there are some things that aren’t entirely clear. A one-world government? It is entirely plausible from what we read. But if this is the case, then who will fight Israel? How do we know that America will be a part of this? We can’t be entirely certain that America will even be around (at least, in its present form) by the time the Antichrist is revealed.

In the end, I think that a person should feel obliged to validate claims. I didn’t make claims about a “secret payoff” to Osama bin Laden, a “secret highway,” a “fake war,” or the “Amero” coin. I simply questioned the proof someone had for making those claims. When I did this, I was immediately pounced upon (at least I felt like I was pounced upon) by people who questioned by right to question such things. In the past, this is when people ask me for MY proof that such things are NOT true (and the “burden of proof” is shifted to me). If this was right, then I could claim outrageous things – like the Moon is made of cheese, NASA hides UFOs in underground tunnels, and, gulp, man invented up the notion of God for control of the masses (a popular conspiracy theory coming from atheists).

If someone wants to discuss their conspiracy theories, shouldn’t they be obliged to substantiate their claims with the evidence upon which they base their beliefs?

:-(

ChrisJD wrote:
And do you think we should go looking under rocks and in holes to find out what is evil?
Chris

Chris your really asking that question here
may I direct you some threads? :-P

Dorcas,

Also about this,

"And... do the answers to those two questions, or anything which has been written in this thread about leaders imply that God did not appoint them?"

No, I don't think so. But I think something that is suggested in the commandment from Exodus is that to speak in that way(as written in that law) about the rulers may be a reproach against God, perhaps because they have His authority?

I see something similar, in differnt ways though, in Proverbs 17:5 and Leviticus 19:14. And also in Exodus 16, where Moses says the children of Israel did not murmur against him and Aaron, but against the Lord. And so he asks

"and what [i]are[/i] we..."

Does that make sense?

Thanks,

Chris

If we ask the Lord to show us when to vote, when not to vote, who to vote for and who not to vote for, He will be faithful to show us.

I was dropped on my head as a baby but I do the best I can with what is left in there.

As long as we keep our eyes on Jesus and don't let our love grow cold, we will be OK. The Lord will give us the strength to endure until He calls us home.

Blessings to all

ironwood

How are we to break through the delusional beliefs of those who are being deceived, if we don't say anything?

I think the word you're looking for is 'proof'. ;-) At least that's how courts work here in Babylon sister. I realize some spirit led Christians no longer need a just and equitable legal system, but some of us here still require proof and evidence for accusations. I thought the law was the same in England. (Except we don't wear wigs.) :lol:

MC

Hi dorcas, and good evening, again :-)

Dorcas, I think my first concern in all of this is the room for making an error. Or many.

In Isaiah it says of the Lord that He would not reprove after the hearing of his ears or judge after the seeing of his eyes.

In these things we may not only do that but worse, we may do it after the seeing and hearing of someone elses. Eyes and ears.

Know what I mean?

Dorcas, hope it will be alright if I interject this here,

"...was not suggesting that every time these people are speaking, they are lying about specific facts (although they may be)"

Isn't this a problem here? Who's lying who's not? Is this the sort of ground we should be standing upon?

Hi Dorcas…

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't feel it as a reproach against God to have information about the secret societies to which memebers of governments belong, and to make sense of their words in the light of that knowledge. Whether they are in leadership or simply a local colleague, are you suggesting it's okay to know, but not okay to say?

How are we to break through the delusional beliefs of those who are being deceived, if we don't say anything?

I'm trying to understand where you draw the line.

Do you know that all the links posted by HE_Reigns contain false information?

Have you followed the links I gave Krispy earlier in this thread?

Did you read the long post by HE_Reigns, in the Emerging Merger thread, with the many references to the New World Order? Do those citations satisfy you? What would persuade you to accept them?

Do you know what concerns me the most, sister? I am concerned that conspiracy-minded people will point the finger at those of us who don’t “take heed” to the various conspiracy theories that have been presented. I sometimes feel “looked down upon” by those who may take offense to the fact that I don’t quickly follow their ideas or beliefs (especially in regard to Bible prophecy or allegations of current conspiracies). But I keep coming back to the realization that I shouldn’t believe ANYTHING that is unsubstantiated or without cross-examined research of the facts. Yes, when at all possible, we should go straight to the sources. You can question sources all day – but this sort of suspicion should be at least applied equally to some of the outrageous notions that have been presented over the past few days. I don’t care how much “discernment” someone feels gifted with – if their “discernment” is not based upon both the Word of God and truth, then their “discernment” is really just indefensible suspicion.

The reason that I replied to this thread in the first place was because some outrageous claims were made that were NEVER validated with facts, sources or even circumstantial evidence. This should not be reflected in our conversations. And we should never become apprehensive if someone questions our claims.

At what point do we become responsible for our accusations?

:-(

Hi dorcas...

It's a matter of burden, calling, experience and opportunity - often unwanted opportunity or experience. You know those clever dot pictures, which have a 3D image hidden within, which you can see only if your eyes focus in a certain way? It's like that. Once you've spotted the picture - which is not a secret, it's just not immediately obvious - you can never again look at those dots with the same eyes. That's what I'm talking about.

So, is the hidden picture true, or a lie? Did the artist put it there deliberately, or, is it always an accident he had not intended? If you can see a 3D car parked by a hedge, or a shoal of fish swimming over sand with ripples above them, are either the car or the fish any less real than the hedge, the sand and the ripples?

:-(

Hi Dorcas,

"...you might start paying attention to things you had not thought of any import previously."

"...there is more than enough evidence to be found by those who seek it."

But Dorcas, should we go looking under rocks and in holes for evil? Where did the Lord tell us to go looking for these things?

Hi dorcas...

I'm sorry to jump into your conversation with ChrisJD, but...

He said sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. That implies it is not under rocks and in holes, but right out there in the open. I'd go along with that, also. It's there to be seen, and noticing it is something about being wise as serpents but harmless as doves.

:-?

Hi dorcas...

What I've seen about the CFR, which I've been introduced to prior to this thread, would not lead me to think of it as a 'secret society'. That is not really the claim. But rather that there are enough members with a philosophy sympathetic to previously determined aims, to conclude becuase the member believe in those aims in favour of recommendations which further that underlying agenda required by their belief system... in exactly the same way as knowing the Lord affects every single recommendation and decision we make.

Thanks in advance...

:-)

Hi dorcas...

Hi Chris... feel free... as I said, I don't feel obliged to answer your concerns about those specific matters.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...what is it that is "there to be seen?!?" "Secret" meetings? "Secret" superhighway? "Secret" payoffs between the US and Osama bin Laden? A "secret" inside job on 9/11? A "fake" war in Iraq? Obviously, these "conspiracies" cannot be seen by anyone in the free press that would LOVE to report on them!

Could I just ask whether you don't beleive secret societies exist? Or you just don't believe anyone in the American political system belongs to any of them?

I guess that I just seriously question that there is a "secret" society that is powerful enough in America to mastermind a one world government that would supercede the established principles of the Constitution. I think that many of the accusations of conspiracy theorists about a well-known "secret society" (or group of well-known "secret societies") that are trying to mastermind a one world government are just baseless. Yes, there are some individuals in the Trilateral Commission or CFR who might want a one world government (although I can't think of a single person who feels this way). But the most important thing is that NO EVIDENCE IS PRESENTED to make such an accusation at many of these popular "secret" groups!

It is perplexing to hear such allegations that continuously go unsubstantiated in regards to proof.

:-(

Hi dorcas...

Brother, the Masons are a secret society and there is plenty to read in the public domain, which should inform you of more of the detail about the way that works.

Chris, the whole plan to mastermind a one world government has been going on since long before you or I were born.

I am in sympathy with your general concern expressed above, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. It is not supposed to be obvious, but once the aims are understood, that fact that changes in law are being put in place to disenfranchise the ordinary citizen of ancient freedoms, is clear.

Dorcas, I do believe that the world is headed to an ugly (and then, GLORIOUS) end. I do believe that the Antichrist will eventually assume control of a "league of nations." I do agree that many in the world will align themselves with this Abomination. I do believe that some sort of "mark" will be implemented and required to buy or sell -- and that this mark could possibly be similar in nature to a debit card account.

However, I certainly do not feel that there is any credible organization currently operating in government that is doing its best to dissolve our national bonds and Constitution in favor of a world government. Yes, there are some individuals who voice a desire for a stronger United Nations (which is currently an almost useless organization) -- but most people in government (and most Americans in general) are strongly opposed to such a notion.

If someone would point me to credible evidence that would make me think otherwise, then please do so. Contrary to how it may appear, my eyes are not shut to "truth." But I will remain quite skeptical of "proof" that isn't credible enough to stand up to logical or academic scrutiny, or wild conspiracy theories that are based upon rumors (or "secret" meetings that obviously aren't too "secret" since they are spread throughout conspiracy [and some "[i]discernment[/i]"] websites).

:-(

If someone would point me to credible evidence that would make me think otherwise, then please do so.

Maybe I can help make sense of the conspiratorial mind.

"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad." First Officer Spock, USS Enterprise.

(It makes more sense if you whisper it.)

MC

Hi moe_mac...

Like I said earlier, I agree that the Masons are a cultish sect with sinister traditions. But today? Most Masons are just a group of lonely old guys wanting to be a part of something that they feel is "bigger than themselves." They meet at their lodge (or "Temple"), perform their sinister looking "rituals," commence their business meeting -- and then they relax and talk about football and grandkids. They aren't plotting to overtake the world for Satan, the Antichrist or even the Masons. Like the Catholic Church's "[i]Knights of Columbus[/i]," these guys are more worried about their next BBQ fundraiser than the affairs of the world.

I too would warn people from EVER joining such an organization. Why? The rituals of the Freemasons are simply incoherent with our faith and very reminiscient of evil. The creeds of the organization endeavor to treat all religions with equal respect, which (of course) is contrary to the Scriptures. Besides, the "belonging" that most modern Masons want to feel can only be found and understood in the Body of Christ.

:-)

Hi dorcas (again)...

Quote:
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"no one really takes the Masons seriously anymore"
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Hmmmm.... ever read The Screwtape Letters? This is a common ploy.

So... you know a few Masons.... I hope not from church. I realise it is very difficult to start seeing them in a different light if you have thought they are harmless. It's a ruse. You have to start thinking outside the box, properly.... not just in academic terms, but cosmic terms, and don't stop.

No, I don't know any Masons who attend Church -- and I would warn anyone AGAINST joining the Masons. It's not because I think that the Masons are out there trying to "infiltrate Churches" and "prepare the world for the Antichrist." I just think that their history and practices are not something that Christians (or even non-Christians) should involve themselves with. I believe that the organization is unclean -- but I don't see anything that suggests that they are trying to change the world for the Antichrist.

I do try to "think outside of the box," but not in a manner where I am willing to see things illogically or believe a conspiracy theory that doesn't have any proof.

Have you researched the history of the UN, and investigated the origins and thinking of the modern political or religious philosophers who have influenced past and present members?

But the UN is a completely different entity than "think tanks" like the CFR and the Trilateral Commission. The UN operates in an official capacity and at least claims supposed authority in certain matters. The CFR and TC don't have ANY AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER. They are just a "think tank" of people from various backgrounds and areas of expertise who often argue and disagree more than anything.

Quote:
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To suggest that they are attempting to create a one world government just doesn't make sense given the history of the organizations and their stated mission.
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Doesn't make sense ... to you... or to them? 'their stated mission'? Why would they put the new world order aspiration in their stated mission, if they didn't want people to associate them with it?

:-(

Dear Dorcas,

"Have you researched the history of the UN, and investigated the origins and thinking of the modern political or religious philosophers who have influenced past and present members?"

Is this the buisness of the Church of Jesus Christ? Are we private investigators? Is this how we should spend our time, trying to find out if the world system really is evil after all?

Whoever isn't with Him scatters abroad.

We could look at it this way, and I think this is a qoute from an American General:

the enemy is in front of us, they are behind us, they're on the left hand and on the right...

[b]they can't get away from us this time!![/b]

I just saw Mike Huckabee preach

We have come quite along way from this.

Will borrow something from the Star Trek era as well;

"Just the fact's ma'am" - [i]Dragnet[/i]

Hi Dorcas…

Chris said
Quote:
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However, the "mission" statements and goals of the CFR and Trilateral Commission do not call for any sort of one-world government...
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That is my point. Why would they include allusions to a one world government, unless they wanted to be associated with it? Don't you see that the exclusion of an obvious statement like that, does in no way prove anything either?

In a way, your need to have personal proof - that is, your unwillingness to believe others who have experience, knowledge, or a different gift for seeing how things fit together - is a disadvantage to you, because you could spend the rest of your life going from point to point, trying to get enough 'information' to convince yourself one way or the other, and still run out of time. If you think about this more like how world weather information is collated... there are weather stations in thousands of places round the world, all sending back information simultaneously. It is the whole which one can prove connects up round the globe. But simply knowing that it's sunny where you are, for as far as your eye can see, is too limited a 'take' - no matter where you are.

The reason that I reiterate that these two maligned organizations are [u]not[/u] purposed with causing a one-world government is because the organizations don’t even have a political purpose at all! They are simply think-tanks. They have no policy ambition. Their goal is to gather a plethora of minds together to voice their opinions about foreign and economic policy. Yet some people are voicing wild conspiracy theories about these organizations WITHOUT providing facts upon which they base their conspiracies!!! Yes, I have stated that I know the history, purpose, mission, publications and even members of both organizations. Why is this important to me in regard to these conspiracies? I have seen NOTHING which makes me think that these organizations are trying to “secretly” organize a one world government! Furthermore, no “proof” has EVER been presented to substantiate these conspiracy theories. Are we supposed to take these conspiracies just because some people have said so? Even the rationale for these theories is based upon “quotes” of unsubstantiated origin that are questionably unrelated to the original allegations about the organizations themselves. Sadly, it looks and sounds an awful lot like gossip and rumor to me.

Dorcas, you make it sound like my eyes are closed and my fingers are in my ears and I am only hearing and seeing what I want to see. That could not be further from the truth!!! If someone could present even a [i]little[/i] bit of credible evidence that would arouse suspicion, I would have reconsidered – even if my experience and knowledge with these organizations led me to believe otherwise. But you seem to be telling me to rely upon these “ministers of discernment” who can’t seem to provide ANY tangible evidence upon which they base their claims. Do you see how preposterous this sounds? This sort of “argument” (in regards to the CFR and TC) could not stand up in a court of law, a classroom or even in newspapers (but then again, some of these conspiracy theorists argue that the journalists must all be “in” on the conspiracy too).

This is a useful scripture, also, when considering these things:

Isaiah 5:20 - 23
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes,
and prudent in their own sight!
Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine,
and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

I know a woman who used to walk around our congregation repeating that unfounded conspiracy theory concerning [i]Procter and Gamble[/i]. Remember [url=http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/procter.asp]that conspiracy theory[/url]? She repeated this thing over and over again to anyone who would listen – including unbelievers! Eventually, [url=http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/digitaldiscovery/library/process/procterandgamble.html]Procter and Gamble sued[/url] various individuals, organizations and even ministries in order to put an end to these sorts of rumors. When this woman finally realized that her accusations were wrong (after watching a story about a lawsuit on the television news), did she go around and apologize for her nonsense? No. She simply feigned ignorance, and spoke of how she was still “doing God a favor” by simply repeating what she had learned from other “men of God.” She claimed that if God didn’t want the rumor spread, He would have put an end to it. Yet his woman was NOT truly innocent in that matter!

I put it to you, that you think you've asked all the right questions, and put 'truth' to the test, and that those you interviewed told you the truth because you asked them questions designed to extract the truth. But, if they told you the opposite of the truth, how would you know? Do they know the political theories which you have studied? Would it be difficult for them to tell you what they wanted you to hear, regardless of whether it is actually what they are doing or not? How can you possibly know if they've been honest or not? Are you relying on the witness of the Spirit? On their good will? On your well-planned investigation?

One of the things you keep saying, which I find slightly surprising, is... 'I don't see'.... as if you expect to 'see' in a way that is easy and open to objective judgement, the things which an entire world system is seeking to hide from even the very elect. Now... why.... would you think that you should be able to see , when you also should expect it to be very hard to see?

Dorcas, here is a hypothetical anecdote:
Imagine if I were to claim that a particular ministry (let’s call it the [i]Home Missionary Alliance[/i]) is actually part of some evil conspiracy to deceive true Christians. I have heard stories about Satanists who use “ministries” to infiltrate Churches in order to indoctrinate people with false doctrine, so I am going to continuously spread my accusation to anyone who will listen. Let’s suppose that I’ve actually read several books and websites about this. I base my accusation upon some information that I have told you that I have read or heard from those books and websites, and upon my own “ministry of discernment.” I even provide you with quotes that I claim are from ministers that are part of that ministry, yet I cannot provide you any citations of the firsthand sources from whence those quotes came to my attention. Suppose that my allegations are sometimes repeated by other ministers and are contained in some “discernment” websites.

Now imagine now that you have close friends who actually work in that ministry. You have visited that ministry and met with many of its ministers too. In addition, you have read the doctrine, statements of faith and often listened to messages from that ministry. You have also sat in on some of the board meetings. In fact, you have actually seen that ministry in action. In your experience, nothing that you have read, heard or witnessed even remotely suggested that those allegations were true. In addition, journalists from all backgrounds and many other ministers have heard those allegations, but don’t feel that they are credible enough to even be worthy of attention.

Would you believe such allegations? Should you believe such allegations?

Sister, please have patience with my silly little anecdote. Yet I think that this is similar to what is being done to those two organizations. And you know the worse thing? The people within those organizations are completely aware of the evil rumors being spread by Christians. The CFR has even been forced to issue statements denying those theories (search their websites – there are several such denials). How do you think that those members (unbelievers) within the organization feel about Christians? Do you think that this is “winning them” to the Lord? Is it possible that these rumors are spreading like gossip and giving a bad name to believers (and the Name of Christ) in general?

Personally, I feel that some of these conspiracy theories that are repeated over and over again are the same thing as gossip. Like most types of gossip, most are not even based upon fact. Some conspiracy theories might have been based upon such fallacious hearsay simply because it is combined with a “foregone conclusion” that there will be a one world government in the near future. But unless we know the absolute certainty of what we are saying, do we have the right to repeat it? That is all of the point that I am trying to raise by this.

This entire topic has me feeling perplexed… and a little hurt. On one side, I think that I am being misunderstood in regard to my ability to “discern” between fact and fiction. I fear that some people may think that I only want to hear, see and believe the things that I [u]want[/u] to hear, see and believe. But that is far from the truth. Oh the other hand, I feel that people have erred in regard to publicly repeating something (and presenting it as “fact”) that is not clearly based upon any semblance of unquestionable truth. And in another sad sense, I feel that I am being “condemned” and “talked down to” by a certain small segment here simply because I have called out the credibility of certain conspiracy allegations that simply have not been reinforced by proof. It is really a lonely feeling. I have not meant anyone harm. In fact, I had hoped some good could come out of all of this (and still hope that this is true).

Let me make it clear: I am not saying that other must BELIEVE ME in regards to the CFR or TC, etc…. I am just saying that we should [u]not[/u] believe and repeat allegations that are not grounded in undeniable evidence. But I really feel a bit tired by all of this nonsense. Yes, I feel that it is nonsense. I suppose that people can chase after and believe any conspiracy theory that they want – regardless if it is substantiated or not. I just don’t think that this forum is the place to spread such allegations, even if it is done in the name of “discernment.”

:-(

Hi Dorcas,

How would they discern the times?

With a keyboard and a newspaper?

Hi Dorcas...

I once had a conversation with a Christian man who believed that the Apollo moon landings were all an elaborate hoax perpetrated by NASA in order to beat the Soviets in the space race. He repeated things that he heard from TV shows, conspiracy magazines and supposed "research" that he performed. He explained that he thought that the entire thing was orchestrated in a TV studio in the 1960s.

Even though we disagreed sharply in this matter, I told him that I didn't have a problem with him saying what he thought -- as long as he explained that this was his own opinion. Yet he claimed that he had a RESPONSIBILTY to "expose" this hoax in order to "expose" the lies of the U.S. Government and NASA.

After I explained that I interned and co-opted with NASA at Langley Research Center several times, he immediately questioned whether or not [u]I[/u] was a part of this conspiracy too. Ouch!

Sometimes, I don't think that it is an easy thing to debate with people like that. He had no "facts" on which to base his conspiracy theories. Even when he admitted that I offered a good rebuttal for each point in his allegations, he was still convinced -- not only that he was right -- but that it was his RESPONSIBILITY to spread this conspiracy allegations (or "expose them" was the term he used).

The funniest thing was this brother also claimed a "ministry of discernment" and tried to tie his allegations about the moon landing with the Antichrist. He freely explained to others that GOD was responsible for leading him to his belief.

This thread (and a few of the others) reminds me quite a bit of that conversation. I am not saying that others do not have a right to share their opinions about the CFR, TC, a "secret superhighway," etc... (even if I strongly disagree with the "evidence" for their support). I am just saying that those who share such conspiracy theories need to add a disclaimer in their rhetoric that distinguishes such things as ALLEGATIONS rather than indisputable fact.

:-)

Hello…

This has to be a matter of personal freedom, I think. You may find yourself with knowledge that no-one else has, especially if you witness something unmistakably irregular. I'm not going to tell you what to do with that information, but... I would definitely encourage you not to try to keep silence over crimes or lies to which you may find yourself party. Nor would I encourage you to try to deal with a duplicitous situation by yourself, once you think you have enough information. Because... the longer you keep silence, the harder it will be to prove afterwards, that you were not co-operating both knowingly and willingly. And, you may find yourself being the fall-guy, if you're the only honest one among those being questioned by the authorities. No-one dishonest would have moment's hesitation in implicating you or even constructing complete untruths about you.

Your concern that 'we' are 'repeat'ing untrue allegations, is only fair if individuals are named against specific events. It seems from looking at an incomplete list of members of the CFR in Wikipedia, that this is a very large group representing many private interests (as you keep saying), but this aspect of their operation in no way precludes the possibility that on any one vote, there are only two possible outcomes: that those in favour of nwo will present a view which boils down to being for it, and those against, will hope to counter that.

If the CFR is basically an option-making facility, then it's the eschelon above CFR who do the option-taking, which would be of more interest to me. But for the upper eschelons to appear to be being guided by the CFR, there must be enough members of CFR whose recommendations are broadly in harmony with their (?nwo) aims.

1.\tAnnie has made a set of allegations in regard to the CFR and TC.
2.\tShe claims that they are purposed with building a one-world government.
3.\tThe sources for which she bases these damaging allegations are:
A.\tResults of her own “many years of research” (which has oddly remained unpresented); and,
B.\tA list of quotes (that have not been cited properly or indicative of the organizations themselves); and,
C.\tLinks, books and articles from “discernment” websites.
4.\tThe websites for both organizations describe the official “mission” and “goals” of both organizations as being “think tanks” that gather many individuals from various backgrounds and beliefs to discuss current trends in foreign policy.
5.\tNeither of these organizations is “official” nor have authority in regard to forming government policy.
6.\tEach member (or combination of members) create various scenarios for improving foreign relations. These are sometimes discussed and debated by other members. However, the organizations do not endorse any member’s personal beliefs.
7.\tThe writings of individual members are gathered and printed in a monthly journal.
8.\tSince none of these writings are endorsed by either organization, they are understood to be the writer’s own personal thoughts and conclusions regarding possible suggestions.
9.\tNothing ever endorsed from these organizations have suggested a disseverment of national governments.
10.\tThe people that I have met who are respected and highly regarded members of these organizations believe that a one-world government is a ridiculous notion.

So the question remains: Should we embrace Annie’s accusations?

I noticed somewhere a post which drew attention to a change from the CFR's original mission statement, now 'to inform' the public's view. Are you able to verify this change? (I'm sorry I can't remember what used to be instead of 'to inform'.)

First, I'm sorry you're hurting about all this, because there has been no intention to hurt you maliciously. (I realise you are not saying there has been.) But whether you (personally) are looking for a degree of proof which would satisfy either academic scrutiny, or, journalistic scrutiny, it is difficult to see how these could be forthcoming. Does this mean there is nothing to note, nothing of concern going on? I cannot believe that the outer shell of any political system, is giving a true representation of its heart to the world, except perhaps by its undetectable terminological inexactitudes. This is the problem.

The most potent blind spots towards spotting error can arise purely because we are so familiar with a routine or process. We don't think of it as corrupt, or corruptible and yet we have control only over the portion for which we are responsible. If every system at the UN has been designed with nwo aims in mind, it will be even harder to detect injustices, as they will have been built into the system from its inception. Only absolute and over-arching objectivity can challenge this... but at this late stage how likely is that? Planning for an nwo is well under way, and you do accept this, I believe.

I don’t know how to make this clearer. I do believe that the spirit of the Antichrist is at work (and has been for millennia). I do believe that it is possible that the Antichrist will have a one world government from which he operates (kind of like the one from which Cesar ruled). I also believe that is possible that the Antichrist might actually operate from a confederation of separate nations and governments, as seems to be indicated by Revelation chapter 13. I also believe that there is a New Age attitude that calls for ecumenicalism in the world (especially in regard to religions). I also believe that there are some individuals who might desire a one world government, a one world religion, or who might embrace the various notions considered within NWO conspiracies.

But in addition to these things, I do not think that it is wise to voice a specific ACCUSATION against a person or organization that is incorrectly identified as TRUTH. In reality, that is ALL that I am trying to say.

I followed the link to the Proctor & Gamble story and was somewhat amused at the claim that finacial records would have demonstrated the company's support for the church of Satan, if that were true. The fact that a court has ever found in PG's favour, proves nothing. My scepticsm must concern you, but... of all the possible stories you could have picked, I had been introduced to this one longer ago than even the internet history records.

What if someone came online and began to voice accusations about YOU? Yes, you are not an organization, but an organization is made up of individuals. Imagine that they claimed that you work in a profession that wants something evil. If we were to permit the amount of speculation that has become common here – then how could you EVER defend yourself? The accusations and rumors would persist – no matter how fervently you tried to defend yourself! People would still post threads, write PMs and work to “expose” what they thought was true about you. If such evil behavior was permitted, it could harm your reputation, your friendships and even your credibility. That is what has happened here.

What would happen a couple of my friends from the CFR, who are believers, were to come on to this website? Would they be viewed with suspicious minds? Would they immediately be “preached to” by individuals who believe the aforementioned allegations? Even if they tried to “set the record straight” in regard to the conspiracy allegations, how would they ever be able to? People would still persist in spreading those accusations like vicious gossip (believing that they are doing God a favor).

Dorcas, I appreciate your time and understanding. I do feel that we are on the same page when we truly get down to it. This discussion was not meant to offend, but to protect people from believing damaging accusations that are incorrectly spread as truth. I don’t think that you have a problem with that.

:-)

Have no idea what the past several pages are about so I will respond to the first post in this thread:

Senator Mike Huckabee is in NH right now campaigning. I had the opportunity to hear him preach at a local church. His message was about being soldiers for Christ. The sermon was really right on the mark...he held back nothing! He talked about dying for Christ and cutting ourselves away from the pleasures and comforts of this world to suffer for Christ. It reminded me of a message Brother B.H. Clendennen did a few years ago called "Soldier."

I watched Huckabee last week speaking at the Detroit Economic Club and was impressed with his stand on the issues discussed and his ability to respond to questions from the audience without "canned" answers. I then watched part of the debate on Fox last Thursday evening and again felt he did a fine job. It seems the conservative side of the Republican Party mostly have issues with his tax policies and the growing of the Federal Government instead of reducing it's size?

I presume Christians would not have many problems with his social issues they seem to fall pretty much in line with an orthodox view as conservatives see it.

Perhaps the area for me to most closely investigate is his experience and stand on so many foreign issues facing our world.

Lastly, it is helpful I think to remember U.S citizens are not hiring a Pastor we are hiring a President and our opinion surely must be formed on more than one or two issues.

And perhaps most importantly, the next President may have the opportunity to appoint more Supreme Court Justices. That alone might give reason to pause and take a close look at all the choices on both sides of the isle.

I for one am in no hurry for our Country the USA to be plunged further into darkness at an alarming speed, and will look closely at anyone who appears to be an upright individual with a history of integrity and I will as every believer should ask God for wisdom in this election knowing there will be no real peace until the Prince of Peace returns!

Sincerely,
Tony Sexton

Hi everyone.

Chris asked this,

"What if someone came online and began to voice accusations about YOU? Yes, you are not an organization, but an organization is made up of individuals. Imagine that they claimed that you work in a profession that wants something evil."

I would add Deuteronomy 19:15-20 to this question also.

Hi moe_mac,

Accusations are no less serious because they are made in a discussion forum. And these things are in a sense being spoken in a court, before the court of Heaven. It may be because we do not treat these things with the same sense of severity and sobriety as what is implied in the passage from Deuteronomy that so much license is taken in saying whatever?

Still, all of these things are before the Judge.

Thanks,

Chris

Sister Annie...

HE_Reigns wrote:
Ccchhhrrriiisss, I don't mind in the least being consistently misrepresented by you and neither should any mature Christian --- it rolls right off, as the Psalms encourage --- but you have "misrepresented" the "Discernment Minstries" -- implicating them somehow with 'my' quotes from Rockefeller and the others regarding the CFR and these Discernment Minstries were not posted to address the CFR or whatever alphabet "think tanks" you're obsessively worried over. though you have no problem lumping Ron Paul and the others who signed the anti-NAU bill in on your Conspiracy Theorists List.

The links to the Ministries, regarded Warren, Brian Mclaren, the "Rethink" conference coming to Robert Schueller's Church, with H.W. Bush and Rupert Murdock with these evangelical leaders in attendance, Etc. - not the CFR/TC.

Please do not implicate Christian Websites with your future posts on "Annie and the CFR/TR" --- out of the same sense of decentcy and "honesty" that you are seemingly fighting for.

Misrepresented? You claimed that the Council of Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission are attempting to create a one world government. You "validated" your claim by including some old quotes that supposedly were made by Rockefeller (et al) -- which I'm not entirely certain were supposedly in reference to either of those two organizations (the CFR or TC). My response was that you should not repeat quotes or present them as fact (if they are merely rumor, assumption or allegation).

I am not addressing any specific "discernment" ministries in this regard, unless they are guilty of spreading or repeating the same thing. I was not referring to any links that were in regards to some other issue. I was referring to the links that alleged vast conspiracy by these two "think tanks" that have no political authority whatsoever (the CFR and TC).

In addition, I was not "lumping" Ron Paul (et al who did not sign a supposed anti-NAU bill) with "conspiracy theorists." I simply responded to the accusation that there was a "secret superhighway" being built (which there is not). Ron Paul opposed the 10 lane highway (5 lanes north and 5 lanes south) that would bypass both his district and most of the major city traffic in Texas and voiced a suspicion that this highway was going to be built to bridge Canada with Mexico (ala NAFTA purposes). Ron Paul did not allege that this was a "secret" highway or the result of "secret" meeting. If he had raised a notion of a conspiracy in this regard, he probably would have been laughed out of Congress -- because this proposed road has been discussed in Texas for over 15 years.

I did not mean any "discernment" ministry any harm in this. I think that I made it clear that I was only speaking of those "discernment" ministries who have also implicated the CFR and TC. Thus, no "misrepresentation" of ministries has taken place. The only thing that I questioned in all of this is the feasibility of accusing a person or organization (like the CFR and TC) through the presentation of an allegation as a fact that is truly just a "conspiracy theory."

Sister, I really want to drop this entire matter. Like you said, it feels like a bad dream. I hurt that this conversation may have caused you (and anyone else) unnecessary pain. My only purpose was to point out that laying an accusation or allegation about those two groups (as a fact) was not proper. I still believe that. This was not an attack on any ministries. This was not an attack on theories of Biblical Eschatology. This was not an attack on you. It is simply an attempt to create a distinction between what is truth and what is anything else. Biblical Eschatology and discernment are not about making allegations (which are questionable at best), but about exposing the facts about our times in relation to what the Word of God says about the last days.

I apologize if this has been misunderstood or even misrepresented in any way.

:-(

Thread locked.