Sabbath

Hi! Everyone

I am new on this chatroom and I wanted to engage ourselves into this topic...I have read some of the OLD aguements some of the members had on this subject...

Until proven otherwise...I don't believe that I should keep the Sabbath.

1. I believe that Christ is our Sabbath.

2. (Col 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Welcome to SI! I hope you are blessed by what you find here.

What kind of proof are you looking for? It seems that people on both sides of this issue have Scripture to back up their stance...

Thank you for responding.Hug!

I need scriptural proof that is not taken out of context.And proof that Jesus did not disregard the Sabbath...Of which when we look at the scriptures of the N.T.,they lean towards the the fact that "the Sabbath should not be kept".

Sorry for taking long to respond.Hug!

I need scriptural proof that is not taken out of context.And proof that Jesus did not disregard the Sabbath...Of which when we look at the scriptures of the N.T.,they lean towards the the fact that "the Sabbath should not be kept".

Well, in other discussions of this topic, both sides have had what they considered 'in context scriptural proof' of their point of view. I hope you find what you are looking for. :)

HopeDollar wrote:

Until proven otherwise...I don't believe that I should keep the Sabbath.

1. I believe that Christ is our Sabbath.

2. (Col 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

1. You believe Christ is our Sabbath-what scripture in the Bible verbally says that, or gives that as an expressed thought?

2. Col 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This is Paul talking about the sabbath days(plural) that were associated with the Mosaic Law and ordinances-There was a Sabbath Day given prior to the 10 Commandments and prior to the Mosaic Law-that Sabbath, which is Saturday-Paul is not talking about.

I know this from the pattern of his speech in Col 2:16-he is talking about eating and drinking, and holy days(feast days), then he mentions "Sabbath Days"-read anywhere in the Old Testament where there was a feast day, and you will see either a sabbath the preceeded the feast day or came after it, but this Sabbath wasn't the 7th Day Sabbath-these were special sabbaths attached to various feasts and fetivals.

Example: Lev 23;24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. (this was not the creation Sabbath-but a special sabbath)

Let's not forget either, that the Children of Israel did keep the Sabbath, EVEN BEFORE THE 10 Commandments was given-(referring to the Sabbath instituted at creation.

Ex 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning

The 10 Commandments were not given until the 20th Chapter of Exodus-this is why the 4th Commandment starts out by saying " REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it Holy" (you can only remember something your are already familiar with or experienced)

Hopedollar, yes i believe you are 1/2 right. the reason for the 1/2 is that Jesus came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it.
So yes Jesus is the fulfillment of the sabbath and it is no longer a day but a person.[to the redeemed]
He is also the fulfillment of "firstfruits"
He is salvation.
He is resurrection

We tend to look at spiritual things backwards.
Sometimes there is a clue in turning things around.

Consider the Hebrews strict guidelines of the sabbath [in order to have complete rest] almost defeating the whole purpose.
This is a picture pointing forward to Jesus [our total and complete rest]
So yes Jesus is our sabbath rest.
But remember we still have the law.... but for the redeemed the LAW GIVER lives in us who is greater than the law

Make sense?

David

colossians 2:16 "Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ".

dear blazedbyGod, please notice how paul talks about the feasts (annual days) new moons (monthly days) and sabbaths (weekly days). this is the thought that this verse follows. because of what Christ has done, we should not be judged by what we observe or do not observe, by what we eat or drink or what we do not eat or drink. they were merely a shadow, a sign to point to Christ. He is truly the end of the law.

like paul says in romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not food or drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit". that verse cuts through to the heart of it all. Christ is our life, our love, our salvation, our everything.

He is our All in All.

brother, we are gonna disagree over this and that's alright, but let our heart be knit together pursuing Him more than we ever have. nice talking to you brother.

phil

Remember that Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

PS I haven't given chapter and verse because of lack of time. I can almost never remember the exact reference (a small degree of "number blindness" maybe) but can look them up if you would like. Pm me...

phil

Quote:

"""He is our All in All.

brother, we are gonna disagree over this and that's alright, but let our heart be knit together pursuing Him more than we ever have. nice talking to you brother.

phil"""

Amen and being our all in all, He is also our Sabbath, the Person of our rest.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Everybody, Please allow me to make a comment in regard of the first message in this thread.

HopeDollar wrote:

Until proven otherwise...I don't believe that I should keep the Sabbath.

1. I believe that Christ is our Sabbath.

2. (Col 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

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Dearest sister.

This is my understanding of what Paul was refering in Col 2:16...

Firstly,

I believe that there were two different Sabbaths.

The first One.
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Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
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This is the first Sabbath.
Created and sanctified by God.
Created when sin did not exist.
Created when man was perfect.
At this point, men did not need Jesus as a saviour, so it cannot be included in the category of shadows of things to come. Remember what Paul says on verse 17?
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Colossians 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
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So, the Seventh day Sabbath, cannot be included in that list of things that pointed to Christ.

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The Second type of Sabbath.

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Leviticus 16:29 In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all,

Leviticus 16:31 "It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls.
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I will list just one but you can read all the other different sabbaths that were feasts of the lord in Leviticus. But look what they were supposed to do in these feasts.

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Leviticus 16:29-30 you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you. 30 "For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
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See here.
These sabbaths were given to Israel after sin.
then....
Man had sinned.
Man needed atonement for his sin.
Man needed a saviour.
Atonement for sin only through blood of the lamb.

All these feast sabbaths pointed to Christ.
These were shadows of things to come.
and also they had food offerings and drink offerings, All these things pointed to Christ as well, all of them were shadows of things that were to come.

=================================================

Now, I want you to look at this very carefully.
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Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath.
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Here Nehemiah clearly said that the Sabbath Day is not only Holy but it belongs to God, It is a God thing.

And it is so important to God that He was willing to take someone's life to inforce it.
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Numbers 15:32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day.
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and we know what happened then.
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Numbers 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."
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My question to you is.

Why was this story told to us?
Why did God write this to us?
Was God trying to show us that He is a tyrant or was He trying to show us that He means business when it comes to His Holy Day?
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In the other hand We have this account in regard of the the other feasts and Sabbaths.
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Isaiah 1:13-14 The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies -- I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. 14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.
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Look what God says in Hosea.
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Hosea 2:10-11 Now I will uncover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, And no one shall deliver her from My hand. 11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, Her feast days, Her New Moons, Her Sabbaths -- All her appointed feasts.

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Here is Hosea, it clearly makes a distinction between, sabbaths that are part of the feasts. The sabbaths that were going to be stopped were the feasts. Not the SEventh day Sabbath.

My question to you is.

Knowing that in God there is no shadow of change.

Do you think that God would be willing to, in one point kill someone and in another say that His Soul hates the very same thing that He was willing to kill?
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Dearest sister,

If I failed to make you see that there is a very distincted difference between the Seventh Day Sabbath and the Sabbaths that are part of the feasts of the Lord.

And even if you think that we no longer need to keep the Sabbath as in a way of showing obedience to His laws. I would like you to look at it in this way.

Sister, There is a couple of blessings for those who keep the Sabbath. Let's not look at it as in something that it is required of us but let's look at it as in a very special blessing that was promised to us, should we keep the Sabbath Holy. Here they are......

First Blessing...
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Isaiah 56:1-7 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree." 4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, 5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off. 6 " Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants -- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant -- 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."
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Remember that on verse 6, it talks specifically about me, the foreigner that join Himself to the Lord. This is me.

and the blessing, I will give in My house and withing My walls a place and a name better that of sons and daughters. I will give Him an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.

Doesn't it make you want to keep the Sabbath Holy?
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Here is the second blessing.
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Isaiah 58:13-14 " If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, 14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken."
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Again God says: from doing your pleasure on
(MY HOLY DAY). Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Doesn't that alone make you want to keep the Sabbath?

Even if I did not believe that we have to keep the Seventh Day Holy, Which I do. I would still keep the sabbath holy only for these two reasons that I just gave you.

I do want to have a special name within the wall of His temple, and I want to delight myself in the Lord and ride on the high hills of the earth.

Now I cannot find anywhere in the bible where these two promises are no longer valid.

If you can find it please let me know.

In Fact, We have a confirmation for the same promise in revelation.
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Revelation 2:17 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." '

Revelation 3:12 "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
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Remember the blessing in Isaiah?

Isaiah 56:5 I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.

Now you can choose not to keep His Holy Day but look at the blessings that you are not including yourself.

God Bless you and all of Us.

Isaiah 56: 6-7
Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants -- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant -- Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Dear jayyou,

Thank you for your encouraging and instructive post. I appreciate the Isaiah passage that you quoted, and truly love to remember the 4th commandment.

I would also like to add this verse, which highlights that the Sabbath is a sign....

Exo.31: 16: Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17: It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever.

Messiah also said this:
Matt.19.16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:
but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments...

Sharon

For some excellent reading on the topic of the Sabbath I have provided a link to a web site that is the ministry of a former Seventh Day Adventist minister who has been gloriously set free, I know because he happens to now be my pastor...

[url=http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx]ExAdventist.com[/url]

In Christ,

Ron

Hi jayyou,

Shortened some of your breaks ========== here. It is unintentional I recognize, but what happens when they are too long or overlap succeding lines is to make the page "Go wide" or out of proportion to the thread.

Just a heads up. The preview button is also very helpful.

Sabbath-keeping was not one of the commands the apostles felt was necessary to enforce on Gentile believers. It is inconceivable that the apostles would neglect to include Sabbath-keeping if it was still God’s command for Christians to observe the Sabbath day

A common error in the Sabbath-keeping debate is the concept that the Sabbath was the day of worship.Those like the Seventh Day Adventists holds that God requires the church service to be held on Saturday, the Sabbath day. That is not what the Sabbath command was.

The Sabbath command was to do no work on the Sabbath day (Exodus 20:8-11). Nowhere in Scripture is the Sabbath day commanded to be the day of worship.

i guess i just wanted to say thanks katy for pointing that out. again, it was well said.

phil

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL covenant.

What does perpetual mean?

Also I would like to say, the Sabbath was NOT created for Jews ONLY, it was CREATED FOR MAN-(not Jews)

Specifically, the Sabbath was instituted right after the making of Adam-Adam worked, he TILLED the ground, therefore it is likely that even Adam kept the Sabbath, and everyone BEFORE the Abraham, including Abraham himself.

The Children of Isreal did not keep the Sabbath per se because of the 10 Commandments, they observed the Sabbath EVEN before they were given the 10 Commandments.

LoveHim wrote:

Sabbath-keeping was not one of the commands the apostles felt was necessary to enforce on Gentile believers. It is inconceivable that the apostles would neglect to include Sabbath-keeping if it was still God’s command for Christians to observe the Sabbath day

well said katy. i think that was a very well said post.. thank you for that.

A common error in the Sabbath-keeping debate is the concept that the Sabbath was the day of worship.Those like the Seventh Day Adventists holds that God requires the church service to be held on Saturday, the Sabbath day. That is not what the Sabbath command was.

phil

This is because at that point Gentiles already knew about keeping the Sabbath.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the GENTILES besought that these words might be preached TO THEM the next sabbath.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy STRANGER that is within thy gates:

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL covenant.

i think katy's posts says a great deal about this issue. maybe that's just me.

anyways, have a good one blazedbyGod,
phil

This is because at that point Gentiles already knew about keeping the Sabbath.

"Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood” (Acts 15:19-20).

phil

Doesn't Israel mean "the Prince"-and are not Christians " Children of THE PRINCE-Jesus Christ"?

Anyway, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say with Exodus 31:10-I was saying that Jews were the First Christians-and according to Exodus 31:10 even Jewish Christians to this day would have to keep the Sabbath because it was PERPETUAL COVENANT-the other thing that people forget, is that Gentiles HAVE BEEN GRAFFTED INTO THAT SAME ONE TREE.

And even Paul said, true Christians ARE Jews INWARDLY.
Rom 2: 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

LoveHim wrote:

This is because at that point Gentiles already knew about keeping the Sabbath.

brother, did they not know by then to abstain from food offered to idols and from sexual immorality as well? brother, that seems to be missing the heart of the text in acts 15.

"Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood” (Acts 15:19-20).

phil

And even to do that was a PERPETUAL COVENANT TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.

Lev 3:17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood

So even what the Apostles told them in Acts 15, was something once given to the children of Israel as a perpetual covenant-

Just because the Apostles wrote to them doesn't mean they didn't ALREADY know to do so-it could have served as a reminder since the issue came up.

Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Hbr 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

God's Works; True rest: Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who ((((worketh)))) all things after the counsel of His own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.

This is not the seventh day Sabbath rest. Hebrews 4:7-8 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

There is another day:

2Ki 18:12 Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, [and] all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded, and would not hear [them], nor do [them].

Job 37:2 Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound [that] goeth out of his mouth.

Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

You can keep the Seventh Day Sabbath and make "It" Holy and still miss the Mark.

The Mark is "Christ In You the Hope of Glory", He is our Sabbath rest.

Not a physical day of rest, but a certainty of God's Rest in Christ Jesus our Savior, our Life and our Sabbath Himself.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote:

""" Re:
Doesn't Israel mean "the Prince"-and are not Christians " Children of THE PRINCE-Jesus Christ"?

Anyway, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say with Exodus 31:10-I was saying that Jews were the First Christians-and according to Exodus 31:10 even Jewish Christians to this day would have to keep the Sabbath because it was PERPETUAL COVENANT-the other thing that people forget, is that Gentiles HAVE BEEN GRAFFTED INTO THAT SAME ONE TREE."""

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

A Christian is not a Christian unless the Christ One is Born Again in Him By Spirit and the Water of Life. We could not be Born Again until He ascended and came back in His own whom He would not leave comfortless.

John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

The Born Again Mystery: Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

In Christ and Christ In New Birth: Phillip

This is Israel: Genesis 46:2 And God unto Israel of the night , and said , Here am I.

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
3478. Yisra'el
Search for H3478 in KJVSL
larsy Yisra'el yis-raw-ale'
from 8280 and 410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: --Israel.

This is the Israelitish Patriarch: Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
3290. Ya`aqob
Search for H3290 in KJVSL
bqey Ya`aqob yah-ak-obe'
from 6117; heel-catcher (i.e. supplanter); Jaakob, the Israelitish patriarch:--Jacob.

The Son's of Israel were 70 and 5. All descended from them as the 12 tribes.

1Ki 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

This does not sound like "Christ in you the Hope of Glory";

Ezr 6:17 And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

In Christ: Phillip

[b]The first mention of a Sabbath-keeping I believe is in Exodus 16. It began with collecting Manna.(Read John 6) Do we still collect Manna or Is Christ Himself ( His own words) ((I was that bread that came down from Heaven))[/b]

Isn't is strange how people will say that Jesus is our Sabbath, yet Jesus in scripture NEVER made that claim, yet in in John 6 Jesus does plainly say " I am the bread of life" as Katy referred to, yet I am curious how come Jesus never said " I am your Sabbath"? If Jesus plainly, verbally made that clear, that he was the bread of Life come down from God, why did he never make a remark like that petaining to being the Sabbath.

[b]When the Children of Israel were in bondage in Egypt, there is no mention of any Sabbath-keeping, including the Egyptians themselves.[/b]

This is because the children of Israel were not a people that served and worshipped God UNTIL God separated Moses from Pharoh-to bring the children out of Egpyt. There isn't even any mention of the children of Israel BELIEVING IN GOD until THEY LEFT Egypt. The Egyptians were not the people of God, so why would they keep the Sabbath-was the 10 Commandements given to the whole world, or JUST the people of God.-which at the time was ONLY the Children of Israel.

[b]Just as the Tabernacle, Mercy seat, blood sacrifice, Priesthood, etc, etc, were established with the Law of Moses, as God instructed Moses, to make everything exactly after a pattern of the thing in Heaven...That Pattern IS Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 8:5, and 9:23[/b]

The Tabernacle, Mercy seat, blood sacrifice, Priesthood, etc were things that was exactly in Heaven and from the pattern of things in Heaven-but Saints in Heaven don't keep the Sabbath Day in Heaven-because truly they have ceased from their works, the Sabbath is for man on Earth while he works-and also, while speaking of the things or pattern in Heaven-let us not forget also where the 10 Commandements ARE presently in the Ark which is where-IN HEAVEN.

[b]Jesus said on the Cross…It is Finished, His work of redemption was finished, and now sits at the Right hand of the Father.[/b]

Let us examine the order of scripture here:

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, [b]It is finished:[/b] and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost

Mark 16:1-8
1 [b]And when the sabbath was past,[/b] Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, [b]had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.[/b] 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. 5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. 6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here:

Jesus says "it is finished"-BUT AFTER THAT, the Bible said when the SABBATH was PAST came Mary=why does the Bible mention Mary M, and Mary Jesus mother keeping the Sabbath AFTER Jesus had died and even said " It is finished"-

I say this with all respect, isn't it strange how Jesus for that particular Sabbath was RESTING, sleeping in the grave,but as the FIRST day of the week came HE WAS RISEN.

[b]When we receive Jesus Christ, (are crucified with Christ and raised a New Creation In Him),we too can say.. "It's Finished", and enter in His Rest.[/b]

Look at the wording of Paul-who is a saved, born again man:

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 [b]Let US LABOUR therefore TO ENTER INTO that rest,[/b] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Paul including himself, by sayint " let US LABOUR, not already have-TO ENTER INTO THAT REST-he is plainly saying that we HAVE NOT ENTERED INTO THAT REST OF OF YET-and he even says " let us LABOUR to attain such. He is talking about physically getting to heaven.

Go back to verse 1: 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being LEFT US OF ENTERING into his rest, [b]any of you should seem to come short of it.[/b]

[b]The Law, including Sabbath-keeping was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ[/b]

The Sabbath was adhered to by the Children of Israel BEFORE the 10 Commandements or the Law was given. See Exodus 16:23 and Exodus 20:8

I find it weird that people will say the Sabbath is ended, or that we don't have to keep or obey it, but then they say or believe we have to keep the rest of the Commandments. The apostle Paul, AFTER THE RESURRECTION still, on the Sabbath Day did what Jesus his Lord did:

Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 15 And he taught in THEIR synagogues, being glorified of all. 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as HIS (not the law) custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath DAYS reasoned with them out of the scriptures.

Some people try to say anywhere the Sabbath is mention in Acts it pertains to Jewish worship-that is incorrect:

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the GENTILES besought that these words might be preached to them the NEXT SABBATH. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the NEXT SABBATH DAY came ALMOST the WHOLE CITY together TO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD.

Why were Gentiles in the synagogue with the Jews on the Sabbath-on more than one occasion-because they were already familiar with the keeping of the Sabbath-:

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy STRANGER THAT IS WITHIN THY GATES:

Dear sister Katy-did,

Please allow me address your message written to me 2008/1/25 21:37:31.

You quoted something that I had said.

""""Doesn't that alone make you want to keep the Sabbath?""""

And then you went on by giving quite a few reasons why we as Christians should not have to keep the Seventh Day Sabbath.

I could reply to your message and show that all the texts that you gave me, in fact does not support your theory of the Sabbath, but that would not make any difference because most of us here do not want to learn, we want to teach.

But having said that I Want to point out something that you failed to address in your message to me.

You showed some texts in the bible that you believe set us free of the Sabbath keeping, and let's say for a moment that you are right,(which I believe you are not), We as Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath. Even though, I see the Seventh day as a delight, a period of 24 hours devoted to my spiritual life, and physical rest.
(please do not reply to me saying that by saying this I can live like a sinner the other six days, because this in not what the bible teach us, this is an argument of some that have no idea what they are talking about).

My Question to you Is......

According to Isaiah 56

Isaiah 56:1-2 "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."

Isaiah 56:3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak,

Here Isaiah is talking about me, I am a foreigner who joined myself to the Lord.
and here is my Blessing for keeping the Sabbath.

Isaiah 56:5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.

SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURES THAT THIS BLESSING IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO KEEP THEMSELVES FROM DEFILING THE SABBATH?

The other blessing is this:

Isaiah 58:13-14 " If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, 14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Here is another promise/blessing.

By calling the Sabbath a delight, this is what God told us.

Isaiah 58:14 And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.

AGAIN, SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE THAT THIS PROMISE/BLESSING IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE TO US?

This is what I want to know from you.

You replied to my message, quoted something I said but failed to comment on that.

So here it is again.

Don't you want to put yourself in a position where you will benefit from the promises or blessing from these two text in Isaiah?

I definetely do............

AGAIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT SHOULD WE OR SHOULD WE N OT KEEP THE SABBATH, BUT......

PROVE TO ME THAT THOSE BLESSINGS AND PROMISES ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO CONSIDER THE SABBATH A DELIGHT?

Dear brother LOVEHIM.

I was reading the messages here and I came accross your message and I could not help but ask you a question.

Your message: Quote:

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL covenant.

wherefore the children of who??
-------------------------------

You are saying that whatever law or commandment was only for Israel, Am I right?

I just have one question for you?

The bible talks about the New covenant in two places saying to whom it is for.....

Jeremiah 31:31 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah --

and then.

Hebrews 8:8 He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah --

My question to you is:

Where do you stand in this one?

Jesus said:

Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now the New Covenant was made for Israel and the House of Judah as well.

So I repeat your words.

The sabbath was something perpetual to whom?

but also the new covenant was to whom?

I am yet to find in the bible a covenant for the Gentiles, care to help?

Hi everyone.

I noticed this discussion is back again. It was going on a while ago and there was one person posting in particular, insisting that the seventh day sabbath was binding upon Christians.

They were posting under the name [b]jayme[/b], if memory serves me correct.

I noticed there is someone here posting under the name [b]jayyou[/b].

Hi jayyou,

Jayyou, you said

"Now the New Covenant was made for Israel and the House of Judah as well."

So what does that mean Jayyou, that we have to decide now which we are, Jews or Israelites?

There is one [b]new[/b] man.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Which promise was made before Israel was called as a nation.

"I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;"

- Isaiah chapter 42 verse 6(KJV)

Christ, the seed of the woman, and the Son of God.

Katy-d

][b]WE are looking for a NEW Heaven and NEW Earth[/b]

Katy

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one [b]SABBATH TO ANOTHER, shall ALL FLESH come to worship before me,[/b] saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

This is to take place where-in the new heavens AND THE NEW EARTH. :-)

Hi BlazedbyGod, how are you?

I noticed in the passage that you qouted here that you did not highlight also the phrase,

[i]from one new moon to another[/i]

How come?

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi BlazedbyGod, how are you?

I noticed in the passage that you qouted here that you did not highlight also the phrase,

[i]from one new moon to another[/i]

How come?

Greetings Chris, I am well, how are you? Well because the name of this thread is "Sabbath"-that is the focus of this thread

Hi BlazedbyGod,

I'm alright thanks.

"Well because the name of this thread is "Sabbath"-that is the focus of this thread"

Right, but since you applied [i]this passage[/i] to the discussion of keeping the literal seventh day sabbath, I think this is a reasonable question to ask. If we're to understand this as the sabbath that was under the Law of Moses, should we also expect to observe new moons and feast days also?

Comparing scripture with scripture, maybe we should look at Revelation chapter 21 verses 23-25. What do you think?

Thanks,

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi BlazedbyGod,

I'm alright thanks.

"Well because the name of this thread is "Sabbath"-that is the focus of this thread"

Right, but since you applied [i]this passage[/i] to the discussion of keeping the literal seventh day sabbath, I think this is a reasonable question to ask. If we're to understand this as the sabbath that was under the Law of Moses, should we also expect to observe new moons and feast days also?

Comparing scripture with scripture, maybe we should look at Revelation chapter 21 verses 23-25. What do you think?

Thanks,

Chris

Well that is the thing Chris, this is not the sabbath attached to the Law of Moses-but the 7 Day Sabbath which was institued at creation.

Pertaining to Revelation, you must pay close attention-it specifically makes reference to ONLY the City-the New Jerusalem which will have no need of the sun or moon-but this is not to be confused with the REST OF THE NEW EARTH, outside of the New Jerusalem

Rev 21:[b]23 And THE CITY had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in IT: for the glory of God did lighten IT, and the Lamb is the light thereof[/b]

Remember, John saw 3 New things: New heaven, new earth, AND New Jerusalem
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down..

In Isaiah 66:23 it only spoke of the New Heaven and the New Earth-it made no reference to the New Jerusalem

Hi again BlazedbyGod,

"In Isaiah 66:23 it only spoke of the New Heaven and the New Earth-it made no reference to the New Jerusalem"

So who is keeping the Sabbath,

Those in the city?

Or those without(Rev 22:15)?

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi again BlazedbyGod,

"In Isaiah 66:23 it only spoke of the New Heaven and the New Earth-it made no reference to the New Jerusalem"

So who is keeping the Sabbath,

Those in the city?

Or those without(Rev 22:15)?

Chris

The answer is: ALL FLESH
Isaiah 66: 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall [b]ALL FLESH[/b] come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, ...

Revelation 22:15 makes reference to the later part of Isaiah 66:23: "....[b]and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.[/b]

These are they that ARE WITHOUT the city that Rev 22:15 makes reference to-

It isn't making reference to the New Earth itself, but rather it is speaking of the people in the lake of fire-which the righteous as Isaiah 66:23 says, will go and look upon their carcasess burning in the lake of fire-these are the dogs, liars, etc...

The following is excerpted from [url=http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx]ExAdventist.com[/url]. There is a wealth of material on the Sabbath there.

CREATION & THE SABBATH: The Scriptures are very clear that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not given before Moses:

The Ten Commandments was not made with the fathers. Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says

"The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."

Nehemiah 9:13-14 says: "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).

WAS THE SABBATH GIVEN FOR ALL MANKIND TO KEEP PERPETUALLY?

No, - Though Genesis 2:1-3 says that after the Lord had ended all His work He rested on the seventh day and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, there is not a word about it being given to Adam and Eve as a commandment. You don't hear another word about the Sabbath in the entire book of Genesis. All fifty chapters are silent about the Sabbath.

You do not hear that the righteous Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob kept the Sabbath. There is a conspicuous silence for 2,500 years after the Fall of man. It is not until after the redemption of God's people Israel out of Egypt when they are safely on the other side of the Red Sea that you read in the Book of Exodus that the Sabbath is mentioned again. (Exodus 16:22-30). Abraham was given commandments and ordinances, but the Sabbath is never mentioned as one of them.

Then the Sabbath is given to Israel and Israel alone. The Sabbath is a covenant sign between God and the nation of Israel. "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 'Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he ceased from labor, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:12-17

Notice that the reason why the Lord links the Sabbath to creation is that He is identifying Himself to Israel as the true and living Creator God. He is separate and apart from all of the other gods of Egypt and of the Gentile world. "Keep the Sabbath, worship Me, for I AM the true, living Creator of the Universe."

Notice also that this Sabbath "SIGN" (Exodus 31:13) is between God and "the sons of Israel" (Exodus 12:15,17) and not for all of mankind.

Nehemiah 9:13-14 indicates that the Sabbath was not given to be kept by anyone until it was given to Israel in the wilderness. "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).

Hi BlazedbyGod,

"The answer is: ALL FLESH"

Ahh, alright. Thank you for making that clear.

So let me see if I can understand what you believe:

You believe that [b]all flesh[/b], is going to observe the sabbath [b]and the new moons[/b], which Paul says are a shadow of things to come, even after it has come?

Is that right?

Do I understand you correctly?

Thanks,

Chris

[b]CREATION & THE SABBATH: The Scriptures are very clear that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not given before Moses:

The Ten Commandments was not made with the fathers. Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says

"The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."[/b]

Well, anyone should know that Abraham was BEFORE the 10 Commandments-however, I will say this, as I have said before:

This is BEFORE the 10 Commandments:
Exodus 16:23And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

This is when the 10 Commandments was given:
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Now we all can count right, 16 comes before 20 right?

So they kept the sabbath BEFORE they were even ever given the 10 Commandments.

But let's reason, if the Children of Israel kept the Sabbath before the 10 Commandements, HOW DID THEY KNOW TO KEEP IT-WHERE DID MOSES GET THIS INFORMATIO FROM-maybe because some of the Old T Patriachs did keep the Sabbath.

Exodus 31:13 just states that God did not give the 10 Commandments to Abraham and so forth-but come on, that is a given-the man came before the 10, however look at this:

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, [b]MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS. [/b]

BlazedbyGod,

You asked,

"But let's reason, if the Children of Israel kept the Sabbath before the 10 Commandements, HOW DID THEY KNOW TO KEEP IT-WHERE DID MOSES GET THIS INFORMATIO FROM-maybe because some of the Old T Patriachs did keep the Sabbath."

Look at Exodus 16:23. I think it says it clearly there where they got it from.

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi BlazedbyGod,

"The answer is: ALL FLESH"

Ahh, alright. Thank you for making that clear.

So let me see if I can understand what you believe:

You believe that [b]all flesh[/b], is going to observe the sabbath [b]and the new moons[/b], which Paul says are a shadow of things to come, even after it has come?

Is that right?

Do I understand you correctly?

Thanks,

Chris

Correct me if I am wrong or not Chris, but doesn't Paul make that statement AFTER Jesus has came to earth, died, resurrected, and ascended back to Heaven?

Col 2:17Which ARE a shadow of things TO COME; but the body is of Christ.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "are"-present tense, and "to COME" future tense-

So Paul is saying THEY ARE (not WERE) of things TO COME ( not ALREADY have come)

Paul is making reference to FUTURE EVENTS, not passed events-I wonder, is Paul talking about they are a shadow of the things TO COME in the New Earth and the New Heaven, and the New Jerusalem-which all 3 are THINGS TO COME.

Or in other words, what verse says that JESUS himself, is what Paul is speaking about in Col 2:17, when he says this AFTER Jesus has came and went back to Heaven already.

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi BlazedbyGod,

"The answer is: ALL FLESH"

Ahh, alright. Thank you for making that clear.

So let me see if I can understand what you believe:

You believe that [b]all flesh[/b], is going to observe the sabbath [b]and the new moons[/b], which Paul says are a shadow of things to come, [b]even after it has come?[/b]

Chris

Also, I would like to say, you added this part to that scripture "....even after it has come"- The Holy Spirit through Paul, never said that.

BlazedbyGod,

"Paul is making reference to FUTURE EVENTS..."

Right, isn't that what we were looking at?

Again, you are telling us that those things which Paul called a shadow are going to be observed when the substance has come? Is that right?

For the sake of clarity here,

BlazedbyGod applied Isaiah 66:23 to this discussion of the Sabbath day, [b]which also includes a refrence to new moons[/b]. I asked that we compare this with Revelation 21:23-25.

I then asked if those things which Paul called a shadow, are going to be observed when the substance has come.

Thanks,

Chris

Isn't a shadow always displayed by the PRESENCE of a body, is a shadow EVER separated, taken away from the body?

Where does Col 2:17 say the substance has already come?

BlazedbyGod,

"Where does Col 2:17 say the substance has already come?"

Are we still talking about Revelation 21?

As far as I am concerned, God is still in the shadow using business.

Peter is the body in this verse, and the Christ in him that gives the power to this verse...

Acts 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the [b]SHADOW[/b] of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

BlazedbyGod,

"As far as I am concerned, God is still in the shadow using business."

Peter didn't dwell in the light that no man may approach unto. It was hidden then.

But that isn't what we're talking about now, is it?

Colossians 2:2-23 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Col 2:17
Verse 17. Which are a shadow of things to come. They were only a dim outline of future things, not the reality. But the body is of Christ. The reality, the substance. All that they signified is of or in Christ. Between those things themselves which are in Christ, and those which only represented or prefigured them, there is as much difference as there is between a body and a shadow--a solid substance and a mere outline. Having now, therefore, the thing itself, the shadow can be to us of no value; and that having come which was prefigured, that which was designed merely to represent it, is no longer binding.

So is the same in the Sabbath. He is now our Sabbath Rest and our only life.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; ((((((Which all are to perish with the using;)))))

after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Is our Sabbath earthly or heavenly? Of heavenly things. Of the heavenly sanctuary; of what is real and substantial in heaven. That is, there exists in heaven a reality of which the service in the Jewish sanctuary was but the outline. The reference is, undoubtedly, to the service which the Lord Jesus performs there as the great High Priest of his people.

He preforms the heavenly Sabbath and we are in Him. That is why the shadow of the earthly Sabbath is only the work and usage of man.
Our Heavenly Sabbath is for the usage of our Lord Jesus Christ who is now our birth right into the Kingdom of God and living in our Father's House which Christ is preparing for us.
His is our all in all and our only Sabbath and Rest promised by God the Father "if you have entered His Rest", in Christ Jesus.

In Christ our Sabbath: Phillip

Hebrews 4:8-9 For if Jesus had given them rest , then would he not afterward have spoken of another day . There remaineth therefore (((((((((((a rest))))))))))) to the people of God .

Rest:
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4520. sabbatismos
Search for G4520 in KJVSL
sabbatismoV sabbatismos sab-bat-is-mos'
from a derivative of 4521; a "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):--rest.

Derived from:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4521. sabbaton
Search for G4521 in KJVSL
sabbaton sabbaton sab'-bat-on
of Hebrew origin (7676); the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:--sabbath (day), week.

Intensively beginning from:

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
7676. shabbath
Search for H7676 in KJVSL
tbv shabbath shab-bawth'
intensive from 7673; intermission, i.e (specifically) the Sabbath:--(+ every) sabbath.

Who is our Sabbath and who is our Rest? In the separating of the soul and spirit, even to the dividing of the bone and marrow. The Word of God Himself has become our Sabbath. There is no other in whom we have the Sabbath Rest of God the Father of those who are in Him because they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

In Christ my Sabbath: Phillip

Hi brother ChrisJD..

YOu wrote: """"They were posting under the name jayme, if memory serves me correct.

I noticed there is someone here posting under the name jayyou."""""

Dear brother, You wrote a message concerning Jayme and Jayyou.

Yes, you are right, Jayme no longer exists and I signed up again and now I am jayyou.

Does that clarify it for you?

Now, people are discussing once again the Sabbath issue,

You have the right to voice your opinion, would you allow me to voice mine?

Dear brother, I don't think that by being jayme once and now jayyou, I tried to deceive anybody, wouldn't you think???????

Could you please explain to me what point were you trying to make?

I have posted, I believe two or three messages here in this thread, and you are already chasing after me...

Would you kindly consider me to post here???

Dear sister Katy-did,

Thank you once more for your reply.

Please allow me to comment on your last message to me.

You still have not answered if there is anywhere in the bible that nullify those blessing?

Please show me where they were nullified?

----------
I had mentioned Isaiah 56 and 58, and it talks about promises and blessings.

and when I asked you if you wanted to put yourself in the position to enjoy these blessings,you said no, saying that these blessings are earthly blessings.

You then quoted a text in Phillipians trying to make me an enemy of the cross by porsuing these blessings and promises.

I don't know how you got to this conclusion.

How on earth, do you take this verse.

Isaiah 58:13-14 If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, 14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD;

Note that in the beginning we have the

conditions IF something THEN.....

If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath.

Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD;

Now, How On Earth can you look at someone trying to delight himself in the LORD and call it an earthly porsue?

and even worse, if you forgive me for saying this, how on earth can you look at someone trying to delight himself in the LORD and call him an enemy of the Cross?

========

The other text was.

Isaiah 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."

Isaiah 56:5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.

Again, Here is someone porsuing an everlasting name that will never be cut off. How can you come to me and say that this person is porsuing earthly things? What logic is that?

by keeping the sabbath in porsuit of an everlasting name state in the word of God, you just became an enemy of the cross?

Earthly things dear sister cannot be everlasting.
Only heavenly things can be everlasting,

This promise in Isaiah to me it is not only still valid for us, but it is also a heavenly porsuit, for in Revelatin we have the same promise for those who overcome, here it is.

Revelation 2:17 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." '

That is the promise of an everlasting name dear sister.

How you put the text in Isaiah and Philipians together I will never know.

One thing I know, Do not tell me that by porsuing and everlasting name that will not be cut off and also by porsuing to delight myself in the Lord, I am porsuing earthly things and therefore I am an enemy of the cross.

this to me is nonsense.

=====

Quote:

Quote:"""""

By calling the Sabbath a delight, this is what God told us.

Everyday is a delight to me In Christ. You are worshiping a DAY, not the Lord of ALL days.

""""

Dear sister, You could not be more wrong the this.

I worship the Creator of the Sabbath. The Lord of the Sabbath.

I also delight in Jesus the Son and God the Father every single day of the week, but on the Seventh Day, this is what I do Besides you..

Isaiah 56:6 I keep from defiling the Sabbath,

Isaiah 58:13 " I turn away my foot from the Sabbath, From doing my pleasure on His holy day, And I call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And I honor Him, not doing my own ways.

Maybe you did not mean to infer that I keep the sabbath holy and the rest of the week I live a Godless life.

Dear sister, you can say anything about the Sabbath but one very important fact remains for me and it was said in the bible.

Exodus 31:13 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath.

Not Moses Sabbath, not israel's Sabbath.

Isaiah 58:13 And call the Sabbath a delight,

(The holy day of the LORD honorable),

And shall honor Him.

See, it is not jewish, israel, moses, Gentiles, anybody. It is the Holy Day of the Lord.

Now, should I believe Isaiah, Nehemiah and Moses when they say that the Sabbath is a God thing or should I beleive you that says it is an earthly thing.

As I said before, You cannot convince me that I am wrong and I cannot convince you that you are wrong and that is fine, I do not believe I am trying to do this, but

Prove to me that those blessings and promises in Isaiah are no longer available for those who keeps the Sabbath, I dare you............

And please do not call them earthly things, for they are not.......

Dear brother ChrisJD,

Please allow me to comment on your last message to me.

You quote:"""Jayyou, you said

"Now the New Covenant was made for Israel and the House of Judah as well."

So what does that mean Jayyou, that we have to decide now which we are, Jews or Israelites?"""""

Dear brother unless I am mistaken, which is possible, Jews and Israelites are the same. in that one you do not have to make a choice, but I am sure you already knew that.

Now you said that the Sabbath was for Israel, I then said: so was the new covenant.

Then you answered this: There is one new man.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

You are absolutely right, there is no more difference, however one fact remains dear brother.

THE NEW COVENANT, JUST LIKE THE SABBATH, WAS ALSO FOR THE ISRAEL AND HOUSE OF JUDAH.

My point is, if the sabbath is just for israel then the new covenant is only for them as well.

Now if the new covenant if for everybody, just like you pointed out, no jew, no greek, then the sabbath is for all of us.

Now, you say, when it comes to the Sabbath it is a jew thing, then in your point of view there is a jew, there is a greek and also there is a gentile, but when it comes to the new covenant then your theroy of no jew, no greek, not gentile applies.

You have to make up your mind brother,

either sabbath is for all and also is the new covenant.
or the sabbath is a jew thing but the new covenant is also a jew thing.

don't believe me, here it is again.

Hebrews 8:8 Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah --

Unless you know of a covenant that was made for all of us the Gentiles, which I have no knowledge of it, or somehow brother we have to include ourselves in this one.

No, if you want to know how I include myself in this new covenant, please ask me I will be very happy to tell you..

God Bless you......

Jayyou,

You said,

"My point is, if the sabbath is just for israel then the new covenant is only for them as well."

It is good that we do not have to rely on your points for instruction.

The Gospel is for all peoples

"And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Genesis chapter 12 verse 2-3(KJV)

"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [i]saying[/i], In thee shall all nations be blessed."

- Galatians chapter 3 verse 8(KJV)

The 7th Day Sabbath, including the other 9 Commandments, were given as a covenant, to the children of Israel

[b][color=000000] And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. [/color][/b]

- Exodus chapter 34 verses 27-28(KJV)

Paul called this "the ministration of death, written [i]and[/i] engraven in stones"

See 2Corinthians chapter 3 verse 7.

Chris

Dear Brother ChrisJD,

Thank you for your reply,

Quote:""""

The 7th Day Sabbath, including the other 9 Commandments, were given as a covenant, to the children of Israel""""

ok, this is the new covenant.

Hebrews 8:8 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah --

Where is the new covenat that you partake?

""""you quoted:

It is good that we do not have to rely on your points for instruction.""""

ok, please instruct me then, where is the new covenant for you?

for in my bible describes only one new covenant, for Israel and the House of Judah.

Please Instruct me.......

Dear Katy-did,

Thank you for you reply.

You have said so many things in your last message and yet you said nothing.

I asked you some very simple questions in my last post and yet you failed to answer, either you do not have the answer or you do not want to answer.

I will try again......

earthly or heavenly promises, either way.

Show me in scripture that the promises in Isaiah are no longer available to those who keeps the sabbath?

You have asked me about my texts in the NT, I told you before, that for every text that you think proves that the Sabbath is no longer binding to us in the NT, In fact to me they prove that the Sabbath in fact is still a commandment from God that we must keep, Not as some burdensome day, but a delight. The Sabbath is a day where I do no labor, I have felowship with Christ every day of the Week, but the Sabbath is a day that I do not any other thing but to fellowship with likeminded people, rest physically, and do good to others, there is no way in this word I would let you or anybody Rob this from me.

I said before that I will not convince you and you will not convince me either, that is why we are not discussing all the bible texts in the NT that you want, especially because I would probably be kicked out of this site should I decided to discuss all of them with you, but if you want we can do this in PM, it is up to you.

What I want from you is an answer in regard Isaiah.

SHOW ME THAT THOSE BLESSINGS/PROMISES(EARTHLY OR HEAVENLY) WHICHEVER WAY YOU THINK THEY ARE..

ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO SANCTIFY THE HOLY DAY OF THE LORD?

THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO KNOW?//////

Quote:

"""The Gospel is for all peoples"""

Which Gospel, which people?

Gospel of Moses?

Gospel of Jesus Christ on this earth?

Gospel of Jesus Christ given to Paul?

Israel?

Israel?

The Church the Body of Christ?

Colossians 1:18-29 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the dispensational God Gospel of Jesus Christ, which fulfills His Word. This Gospel was not in the old testament and could not be, it was a mystery that no one, even if they heard it could not understand the mystery; "it was hidden". This Gospel is only available to those that are since the Cross and revealed to Paul for "usward". This fulfills the Plan of God before the foundation of the world. That is son's in His House. That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Colossians 1:24-28 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

This is our Gospel and this Gospel contains our Sabbath, That is Christ In You the Hope of Glory. This Sabbath comes by the Person Himself that gives us His Rest, Jesus Christ, He is our Final Gospel Sabbath given to Paul and preached to us through Paul for us.

This spiritual Sabbath overrides the physical Sabbath. The Spiritual always overrides the Physical. Keep the Sabbath or Walk in the Sabbath Himself.

In this Person of God, Jesus Christ our Sabbath:

Phillip

Perfect

Hi Jayyou,

Jayyou, you asked

"ok, please instruct me then, where is the new covenant for you?

for in my bible describes only one new covenant, for Israel and the House of Judah."

In Isaiah chapter 52 it says

[i]So shall he sprinkle many nations...[/i]

Compare this also with Exodus 24:8 and Hebrews 12:24.

The Lord Jesus said He had sheep which were of another fold.

Chris

Katy-did wrote:
[b]In Revelation, there will be no sun or moon,[/b] for God shall be the Glory and the Lamb shall be the lamp. In Heaven we will not be looking upon the carcasses of flesh, but all tears will be wiped and we will forget the former things.

it." '

That is incorrect, The Bible said "...there will be no NEED for the sun TO SHINE IN IT.."

There will BE a Sun and a MOON in the New Earth-they just won't light the New Jerusalem-because it is ONLY talking about the "CITY" New Jerusalem that will have no need of the sun or moon to shine in it

Rev 21:23 And the city had no NEED of the sun, neither of the moon, [b]TO SHINE in IT:[/b] for the glory of God did lighten IT, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

It never says that there won't be a sun or moon at all....they just won't give their light off in the New Jerusalem-but the Sun will shine in the rest of the New Earth

Katy-did wrote:
Jayyou,

Just an added about the future Kingdom Reign, Paul instructs:

Colossians 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which [u][b]are[/b][/u] a [u][b]shadow of things to come[/b][/u]; but the body is of Christ.

Please note these ARE as shaddow of things to come, not that which has all ready come.

The Kingdom will go back to the Law, ruled with a Rod of Iron. Many teachings for this time are found in Matthew.

Paul here is instructing the Church we are not to confuse those things to come in the Millennial Kingdom Reign with the Church, the Body of Christ. We are now in the Age of Grace.

We are Complete in Him.

Katy

Where does the Bible say that? That in the millennial Kingdom things will go back to the law?

Paul in this verse IS NOT telling the Church about the Millennial Kingdome the " things TO COME" are the New Heaven and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem

Dear sister Katy-did.

Again you failed to answer my question.

My question to you was,

SHOW ME THAT THOSE BLESSINGS/PROMISES(EARTHLY OR HEAVENLY) WHICHEVER WAY YOU THINK THEY ARE..

ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO SANCTIFY THE HOLY DAY OF THE LORD?

-------------------------------------------------

In your answer you not only failed to answer a direct question, but also you said this....

"""""Now you line up scripture in Isaiah that those who are Sabbath-keepers are those who's name will be written in Heaven.""""""

Now, I went back in my messages and nowhere I found such a statement from me.

I have never said such a thing, I do not know where you have read this in my messages.

What I said dear sister, was the fact that there is a blessing for those who keep the Sabbath, just like Isaiah said, nothing more nothing less.

You are saying that the promises in Isaiah are earthly promises, and therefore you are not interested in them, But I am, and unless you can prove to me that there is somewhere in the bible that nulifies these promises, I will definetely put myself in a position to benefit from them.
--------
quote:""""In Revelation, there will be no sun or moon, for God shall be the Glory and the Lamb shall be the lamp. In Heaven we will not be looking upon the carcasses of flesh, but all tears will be wiped and we will forget the former things.

So this time, (not now either), as no baby is dying at 100, and in Heaven no one will die at all.

Unfortunately, many see only a verse or chapter here or there, and never read all of what is being said.""""""

Dear sister, when I gave you the text in Revelation I was trying to show you that just like in Isaiah, in revelation there is also a promise of a very special name to those who will overcome. by mentioning the text in Revelation, I want to get you to think that the idea of a special name is a great reward.

-----

quote: """""However, these scriptures in Isaiah are promised to Earthly Israel. You see Jayyou, the Everlasting Covenant is the ultimate Covenant with many Covenants under."""""

Dear sister, The promises of Isaiah 56 are not for Israel, Please check you bible again and you will see that this text if salvation for the Gentiles.

Now, as you know dear sister, There is no longer Jew, Greek or Gentiles, Remember??????????

So, the promise is there and it is for everybody, Unless you show me that this promise is no longer available.....

but I dare you to try......

--------

You talk about the everlasting covenant.

but this everlasting covenant dear sister and yet it is also for Israel.

Here it is,

Ezekiel 16:59-60 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant. 60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

Ezekiel 37:25-26 5 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:

Psalm 105:9-10 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; 10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Now, the only time the everlasting covenant is mentioned in the NT is here.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

in Matthew Jesus said:

Mark 14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

So, Again The new covenant/everlasting covenant was also for Israel,

You cannot separate things, there is no jew nor greek nor gentiles and all the promises and everthing else is for everybody just the way that Paul describes it.

--------

Quote: """***And they/we OVERCAME through the Blood of the Lamb, and the word of their/our testimony***"""""

Dear sister, because I believe that the Sabbath is a great blessing that God gave us and because I defend the fact the Christians should enjoy this blessing doesn't mean that I have no washed myself in the blood of Jesus, it doesn't mean that I didn't give my whole life to Him, it doesn't mean that I was justified by faith and by His grace I was saved.

--------

Again the question for you.

Prove to me that the blessings in Isaiah was nulified, Care to try???????

Dear brother ChrisJD,

Thank you again for your reply.

Dear brother, you asked me to read

Isaiah 52, Hebrews 24:8, and Exodus 24:8

My question for you was:

where is the new covenant that you partake?

for in
Hebrews talks about the new covenant, which is for Israel and the House of Judah,

Exodus is talking about the Old covenant, which was also for Israel

Isaiah 52:15, says that He shall sprinkle many nations, but How you as a gentile I can partake in this new covenant that is for Israel and House of Judah?

That is the answer I would like you to answer me.

I hear everybody saying that I am in the new covenant but how do you, as a gentile include yourself in this new covenant that is for Israel and the House of judah?

In one place you say that the Sabbath is only for Israel, so in this situation there is a israel and there is a Gentile, but when it comes to the promises of the new covenant then you say what Paul said about no more Jew,no Greek no gentile we all partakers.

how is that so?????

In love, Jayyou.......

by the way you haven't said why you mentioned the jayme jayyou thing?
I am curious......

Hi Jayyou,

Jayyou, you said

"Isaiah 52:15, says that He shall sprinkle many nations, but How you as a gentile I can partake in this new covenant that is for Israel and House of Judah?"

Was it for them only, or was it promised to all peoples [b]beforehand[/b]?

"And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

- Genesis chapter 12 verses 2-3(KJV)

[i]...in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed[/i]

"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

- Galatians chapter 3 verse 8(KJV)

[i]In thee shall all nations be blessed[/i]

Also, I mentioned the passage in Exodus in order to compare what Moses did there with what the scripture says in the other passages I mentioned together with it.

About your name, I thought it would be good for the people here to know if someone was posting under a new name that had been involved in this discussion before on these forums.

Dear brother ChrisJD,

Thank you for your message.

Dear brother I understand that we would be blessed through abraham.

I, as a Gentile, am a partaker of the New Covenant, Paul clearly explains to me how I, as a gentile, am a partaker of the new covenant.

What we are discussing here dear brother is this.

You said that the Sabbath is for Israel and you are 100% correct, for

Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

I am not disputing this at all,

The question is that the New Covenant is Also for Israel and the House of Judah.

You can call it New Covenant or Everlasting Covenant as Paul refers to it in Hebrews 13:20.

My problem with your assumption is that The Sabbath is only for Israel but the blessings of the new covenant is for all of us.

Now to me scriptures is very clear, they were both given to Israel. If I follow your logic of the Sabbath, then I have to assume that the New Covenant is only for Israel as well.

I understand very well that we all can be partakes of the New Covenant that was given to Israel, You do not have to explaing this to me. What I would like you to explaing to me is how you exclude yourself from the Sabbath law covenant, by sayin it is only for israel, and then you include yourself in the new covenant that also is only for israel. It doesn't make sense to me.....

--------

quote:""""About your name, I thought it would be good for the people here to know if someone was posting under a new name that had been involved in this discussion before on these forums.""""

Are you satisfied now that everybody knows that I once discussed it before.

You discussed it the other thread as well, what does that make you? Should everybody know that as well?

I am sorry for writing this but I felt attacked and for no reason.

so please forgive me.

Hi again Jayyou,

Jayyou, you said

"The question is that the New Covenant is Also for Israel and the House of Judah."

It is for all peoples, and not only for them.

The promise was made to Abraham before Israel and his grandson Judah were born.

The 7th Day Sabbath was given, along with the other 9 Commandments, as a covenant [b]to the children of Israel[/b]. See Exodus 34:27-28.

The Gospel was promsied before this.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

- Genesis chapter 3 verse 15(KJV)

This woman, was she a Jewess? Or an Israelite?

Christ, was His genealogy recorded to Abraham only, or to Adam also?

The scripture says of Christ

"I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;"

- Isaiah chapter 42 verse 6(KJV)

And also it says

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

- John chapter 3 verse 16(KJV)

Jayyou, about this,

"You discussed it the other thread as well, what does that make you? Should everybody know that as well?"

Was I warned by the moderator to not post on this subject in the forums anymore?

EDIT: In the post above I mistakenly said that Judah was the grandson of Israel, instead of Isaac.

Quote:

"""SHOW ME THAT THOSE BLESSINGS/PROMISES(EARTHLY OR HEAVENLY) WHICHEVER WAY YOU THINK THEY ARE..""

"""ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO SANCTIFY THE HOLY DAY OF THE LORD?"""

We are sanctified, not us sanctifying anything.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

We are sanctified in Christ, we are not Sanctifying a day to make it Holy.

It makes us Holy, It is Christ our Sabbath that make us Holy.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Christ was crucified for us, to take away sin for us, He is Holy, so makes us Holy that which He has done. It is not us keeping a Sabbath day that makes us Holy and this side of the Cross we have no charge to keep a Sabbath day, just like there is no more blood sacrifice for sin. The Law was fulfilled in Christ which we are no longer under. We are under the Law of Christ which is the Law of Love and the Blood that was shed by our only and last sacrifice. The Sabbath day keeping is the same, we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves, but not to make any specific Sabbath Day be our assembling, it is for our comfort and loving one another and sharing the Gospel "Christ in you the Hope of Glory. I see Jesus in them because I see Jesus in me. This is our Sabbath.

This is what we are to keep Holy.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

What makes us Holy and what sanctifies us?
The covenant of the blood where He was sanctified by crucifixion, an unholy thing, and He did to sanctify the Spirit of Grace that we know have. Let us not make the Sabbath an unholy thing by making it, an earthly day, the heavenly sanctification Christs'day which is every day in Him. That Grace, that faith is Jesus Christ in us and our Sabbath, our Sanctification, our Righteousness, our Wisdom and Our Redemption, with His Mind and His Spirit, our all, this has been made unto Us the Spirit of Christ, a real Person in us by the Father, making Jesus Christ our all in all, Seek Him and make Him our Sabbath and our everything in Love, seeking His works unto us and greater than His works that bring the Gospel to all the Father has given Jesus Christ. May we truly see that Jesus is our only Sabbath.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

In Christ: Phillip

Dear brother ChrisJD,

thank you again for your reply,

Please allow me to comment on your last message.

Quote:""""Jayyou, you said

"The question is that the New Covenant is Also for Israel and the House of Judah."

You said:
It is for all peoples, and not only for them.

The promise was made to Abraham before Israel and his grandson Judah were born.""""

Dear brother ChrisJD, We are talking about the New Covenant, Remember?

Now you said that the promise to Abraham was before Israel and Judah were born.

However, the Old Covenant would only be given to Israel (and only to Israel) centuries ahead.

In Fact, this is what Paul talks about the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them.

The problem was not in the Covenant Itself but with the people that the Covenant had been given to. They were the ones that messed things up.

Either way, Dear brother One fact Remains:

Old Covenant: To Israel...

New Covenant: Israel and House of Judah.

I keep repeating the same thing but, These are your answers.

Sabbath - To Israel only.

Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Now in this One you do not include yourself. You say: Not for me, for them only.....

But then.

Hebrews 8:8 He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah --

Very clear to me brother,
(ISRAEL AND HOUSE OF JUDAH).

but in this one you include yourself.

And I keep repeating the same question over and over again.

What is the logic of your doctrine?

I know that the promise of the New Covenat is for everybody and Paul has explained it in details how I, as a Gentile, include myself in the new covenant, and Unfortunately for you the Sabbath comes along as part of the package.

I am sorry dear brother but so far you have failed to show me in scriptures your logic and the question still remain.

You said in one of your messages to me.

Quote:"""It is good that we do not have to rely on your points for instruction"""

So please show me in scriptures your logic. So far you have showed me that the promises are for everybody but you have not shown how is it that you exclude yourself from one and include yourself in another.

Again the question for you.

How do you exclude yourself from the SAbbath which was only for israel and you include yourself in the promises and blessings of the New Covenant which happens to be only for Israel and House of Judah?

Now if you cannot answer this, Just ask me and I will show you how I include myself in the new covenant. Just Ask.....

-------------------------------------------------

You quote:"""""It is for all peoples, and not only for them.

The promise was made to Abraham before Israel and his grandson Judah were born. """"

The Bible says in various places that:

Genesis 26:4-5 "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

It says that all nations will be blessed through his Seed.

But note that on chapter 5 God tells us why was it so,

"because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Hang on but there were no laws before the Sinai, but not only that but Abraham obeyed them.

A lot of people argue that Abraham did not keep the Sabbath.
Now if you use the logic that God Sanctified the SAbbath at creation and that then God used to communicate directly with them. Is it possible that Abraham preatty much kept the Sabbath? Specially after such a declaration from God.

"because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

In Fact, This is what God asked Abraham.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

How could Abraham walk before God and be blameless if Abraham did not know how to do that?
How would Abraham walk before God and be blameless?

Now you can come to me and say, you cannot prove that He kept the sabbath, because the bible doesn't say clearly?

Well it does say it very clearly to me. But....

You cannot prove that He did not either for the Bible does not say it clearly.

One fact remains.

5 Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

Is it possible that the Sabbath could be included in one of them?(My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws)

So, yes. All nations would be blessed through the seed of Abraham through Faith just like Paul said:

Galatians 3:8-9 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

God bless you Brother......

Dear sister Katy-did,

Thank you again for your reply.

Please allow me to comment on it.

Quote:""""Here is the whole chapter of Isaiah 58. I believe the whole blessing and promise belong to the heritage Of Jacob, specifically the 12 tribes of Israel."""

Ok Dear sis, I will go down this road with you...

Is it for Israel? But Paul said that there is not jew nor greek, etc...

But for you there is a Jew and there is a Greek here....

Ok. Let's say that you are right, they are for Israel.

My question to you is.

What about Isaiah 56.

Isaiah 56:1-3 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak.

Isaiah 56:6-7 " Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants -- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant -- 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer.

To whom are these blessings?

My bible gives the title for this chapter and it says """Salvation for the Gentiles"""

Are these blessings still valid for me? or can you prove in scripture they are no longer available for us the Gentiles?

Jayyou,

"which happens to be only for Israel and House of Judah?"

this word [b]only[/b],

Did God say this or you?

Dear Sister Jeannette,

Thank you for your reply.

Please allow me to comment on it.

I was having a discussion with Katy-did about scriputre.

I gave her a couple of texts in Isaiah.

Then you wrote to a message, quoting the same question I had given to Sis Katy-did.

However, In your message. You failed to answer the question that you had quoted from another message and invited me to discuss semantics.

I wrote down a text in Isaiah 56 with especific promises and blessing for those who do exactly what the text says in regard of the Sabbath.

but instead, looking at it instead thinking that there might be a blessing for those people who do them, you write to me to discuss meaning of words to try to disprove what the bible says very clearly.

You said: ""We need to understand this to understand something of what the Sabbath really is, in its fulness, as it originally was in the Lord."""

Let's see.

The Sabbath Originally.

Genesis 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

is it an eternally or earthly Sabbath?

Exodus 16:26 "Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, there will be none."

is it an eternally or earthly Sabbath?

Exodus 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

is it an eternally or earthly Sabbath?

Exodus 20:8-10 " Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work:

is it an eternally or earthly Sabbath?

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath,

is it an eternally or earthly Sabbath?

Isaiah 58:13 " If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable.

is it an eternally or earthly Sabbath?

Nehemiah 13:22 And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should go and guard the gates, to sanctify the Sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of Your mercy!

is it an eternally or earthly Sabbath?

Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";

is it an eternally or earthly Sabbath?

I could give you a whole list of Sabbaths but it would talk too much space.
----------

Now I will quote the same question for you since you offered to answer.

Isaiah 56..Isaiah 56:1-7 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree." 4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, 5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off. 6 " Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants -- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant -- 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer.

promises/blessings

Isaiah 56:5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.
Isaiah 56:7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer.

The sabbath Isaiah is talking here are they eternally or earthly Sabbath?

Are these blessings valid for those who do exactly what the text says. or can you show in scriptures that they were nullified?

Very simple question.

God bless us.

Dear brother ChrisJD,

You are totally missing the point, dear brother.

I do not know how to explain this more clearly to you.

I am not argueing with you the fact that the New Covenant is only for Israel and the House of Judah.

As I said before, I, as a Gentile, am included in the New Covenant. If I were saying that the New covenant is only for israel I would be excluding myself from partaking in it. You are missing the point.

What we are argueing here is the Fact that you have said the sabbath is only for Israel but the New covenant is for everybody.

We are discussing inconsistency.

The sabbath was given to Israel, but so was the New Covenant.

Either something(Sabbath) given to israel and something (New covenant) also given to israel and house of judah was given to everybody, or, they all belong to israel and israel only.

So please, what I am asking you is this,

show me in scripture your logic for excluding yourself from partaking the sabbath and including yourself in partaking the new covenant.

That is all.

God bless....

Jayyou, to add to your quote from Genesis 26: "Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws", I would like to mention that the Sabbath is also recorded as being kept in the book of Exodus, prior to Mt Sinai.

The first mention of observing the "Sabbath" (from the Hebrew 'shabbat' , meaning "to rest/cease from labor"; the day of rest) is in Exodus regarding the gathering of manna:

"And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning." Exodus 16:23

~Notice that this is four chapters before the Law was given at Mt. Sinai~

They were to gather twice as much on the 6th day in anticipation of a day they were apparently already observing - this shows that the 7th day Sabbath had been instituted long before the giving of the Law at Sinai - in fact it was sanctified and ordained in Eden.

And, of course, the Sabbath was included in the Ten Commandments:
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
Exodus 20: 8

That the Sabbath had been ordained prior to Sinai is even accounted for in the very wording of Exodus 20:8: "Remember..."

The Seventh day Sabbath is a wonderful reminder, a shadow of a coming day of rest in the Messiah - The 1000 year reign of Yeshua from Jerusalem. It also stands as a reminder that 'in 6 days God created the world, and on the 7th day, He rested', thus reaffirming our belief to this evolution-embracing world that we believe in a Creator God, YHWH.

Rev 22:14: ... Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. ..

For the joy of the sabbath,
Sharon

P.S . I have not heard people arguing and standing so strongly against any of the other 9 commandments?

Jayyou,

You asked,

"Are these blessings valid for those who do exactly what the text says. or can you show in scriptures that they were nullified?"

"Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called a house of prayer for all people."

- Isaiah chapter 56 verse 7(KJV)

"... their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [i]shall be[/i] accepted upon mine altar"

" And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."

- Matthew chapter 21 verses 12-13(KJV)

[i]...but ye have made it a den of thieves[/i]

"We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."

- Hebrews chapter 13 verses 10-14(KJV)

And the Lord Jesus also said,

[b][color=660000]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [i]thou[/i] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [i]her[/i] wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.[/color][/b]

- Matthew chapter 23 verses 37-38(KJV)

Jayyou,

You said

"So please, what I am asking you is this,

show me in scripture your logic for excluding yourself from partaking the sabbath and including yourself in partaking the new covenant."

[b][color=000000] And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. [/color][/b]

- Exodus chapter 24 verse 3(KJV)

[b][color=000000]And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. [/color][/b]

- Exodus chapter 34 verse 27-28(KJV)

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [i]them[/i], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.[/color][/b]

- John chapter 17 verse 6-8(KJV)

Dear brother ChrisJD,

Thank you for your message.

I have read your message that you wrote in regard of the excluding ourselves from the Sabbath and the including ourselves in the new covenant.

I have to confess that this must the the fourth time that I have asked you and so far you have failed to answer the question.

Now, unless my understanding of scriptures is really that bad or my english is definetely not that good, which is possible. I would like you to reread your last message concerning this question and give me a better explaining of these texts you quoted.

Now this was the question.

"""""

Question: show me in scripture your logic for excluding yourself from partaking the sabbath and including yourself in partaking the new covenant.

""""""

and this was your answer..........

And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
- Exodus chapter 24 verse 3(KJV)
-----------
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
- Exodus chapter 34 verse 27-28(KJV)
-----------
The Lord Jesus said
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
- John chapter 17 verse 6-8(KJV)

----------------

Please, how these texts explain to us without a shadow of a doubt that the Sabbath is only for israel but the new covenant is for everybody?

The first verse only tells me that Israel vowed to obey the words of the Lord.

The second verse tells me about the Old covenant.

The Third verse talks about Jesus praying for the Father in regard of those whom God had given as disciples to Him.

Please, explain to me because I just don't see how you look at these three texts and find the answer as to why the Sabbath is only for israel but the new covenant is for all of us, When both of them were given to Israel?...

Again, Let me make it very clear here.

Jesus died for all of those who believe. Salvation is given to everybody that confess the name of Jesus and accept Him as their saviour and is baptised in His name.

I, not for a moment, am argueing that the New Covenant is not also given to us Gentiles but so it is the sabbath. If we include ourselves in the blessings of the new covenant, then we would also include ourselves in the blessings of the Sabbath.

So, Have a look in your last answer in regard this matter dear brother and explaing to me how you loot at these three texts and find the answer to this question, for I could not see it.

Am I the only one or are there other who cannot see the answer either?

God bless you......

Dear sister Katy-did,

Thank you once more for your reply.

Please allow me to comment on it once more.

Dear sister, in your message to me 2008/2/3 16:36. You wrote....

quote: You see, WE are sanctified once and for all through the Body of Christ, therefore we can't sanctify anything ourselves.
-------
Dear sister, Jesus in fact is our all in all.
but the second part of your statement to me is not true.
I will show you why.....

These are the ones accepted by Him.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Those who works righteousness, please do not come to me and say that I am preaching salvation by works, because only Christ can empower us to do works of salvation. Once you have Christ in your life you cannot but produce works of righteousness.

1 Peter 1:15-16 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

Here Peter is given us a command to be holy for God is Holy.
-----

Quote: """""" NOW it is not longer Jew of Gentile, but one New Man we are In Christ....""""

Dear sister nobody here is preaching Gentiles or Jew or circumcision....In fact, if anything, you are for you are the one saying that certain blessings and certains things are/were for the Jew but you just said there is no jew or gentile anymore.

this sounds like contradiction to me....

question:

Do the Jew, Today, have to keep the sabbath or not in your opinion, bearing in mind

Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

----------

You quoted Hebrews 10, I am not sure I understood why, for I sis believe that I am partaker of all the blessings, even if they are blessings estated in the OT. I wonder what made you think that I would not know to whom the blessing in Hebrew 10 were for.

so, the answer is Yes for all of us. But having said that it does not mean that I will not put myself to benefit from blessings in the OT. Blessings which so far you have failed to show me that they were nullified. All you said so far is that they are earthly blessings.

I, like yourself am looking for the heavenly blessings, but in the meantime, I am on Earth, why would I not porsue the ones here on earth as well, you bet I will.....

--------

Quote:"""""Jayyou, I gave you my answer to Isaiah in great detail. These are given to Israel pointing towards the Millennial Kingdom Reign, and YES Gentiles will also enter in.""""

Dear sister, you just said that there is no Jew and no Gentiles anymore, but then you come and say that there will be jew and Gentile in the future. make up your mind... too confusing.....

--------------------

My dear sister.

I think you read the text in Isaiah and try to acommodate it to fit your view of scriptures.

This is what the text really says....

This is God talking about Salvation for the Gentiles, Not Israel, not jew, not Hebrew.

This is salvation for the Gentiles, you and me.

It is a text that says:

Isaiah 56:3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak,

Do you see this, Joined himself to the Lord, it is not joined himself to Israel.
Have you joined yourself to the Lord?

Isaiah 56 written for the Gentiles.....

Isaiah 56:1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed.

Dear sister, what is the text describing in the first verse.

what was the salvation that would be revealed?

This is a text talking about the coming of the Messiah. Or am I wrong?

Isaiah 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."

Who will be blessed here sis?

first verse talks about the coming of the Messiah, then on the second verse it talks about those who are blessed.
The ones who are blessed are those who do this,

Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."

and then we have all the blessing for this.

You labored too much dear sister saying that Jesus is not sitting on a mountain. What would He be doing sitting on a mountain anyway, where did you get this idea?

What I am interested is that special name He promised me, remember?

Isaiah 56:5 I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.

Oh Jesus, how I long to have a name that will never be cutt off.

Never be cutt off dear sister means everlasting.

I want to do whater pleases God.

Isaiah 56:4-5 "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, 5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters;

See dear sister, to keep His Sabbath is part os doing that that pleases Him.

According to your theory that Jesus is not sitting on a mountain, what about his House.

what is your theroy of His house, does He have a house? does it have walls? is it here? is it in heaven?

I could go on forever commenting on your message,

You quoted: """"I gave you my answer to Isaiah in great detail.""""

All you have done so far is to call these blessings earthly blessings, trying to make them not appealing to anybody, also you have tried to say that these are blessings given to Israel, and although you youself have said that there is no longer Jew or Gentile, but all their promises remain for all of us, you try to make it something that isn't for us.

but in the case of Isaiah 58, because it mentioned the fact the God would give us the inheritance of Jacob, you said that it was only for them, but Isaiah 56 dear sister was given to us, the Gentiles.

The promises of Isaiah 56, has nothing to do with this theroy of kingdom of Israel that is suppose to come in the future. read the first verse and it will give you the time that it is talking about.

So, the very same question remains for you.

Show me in scripture that the blessings of Isaiah 56 that is for the Gentiles, not the Jews, Are no longer available for us?

all you have to do dear sister is to say,

No, or yes, and them give us the scriptures text to back up your answer.

God has promised us earthly blessings, I will chase them.

God has promised us heavenly blessings, I will chase them as well.

every blessing available to me, with the power of the Holy Spirit, I will put myself in the position to receive it, either earthly or heavenly.

Wouls love to see your answer again....

God bless you....

I disagree with you, You are still to answer me if these promises are still available for those who keeps from defiling the Sabbath?

Jayyou,

Why not look more closely?

Dear Brother ChrisJD,

Once more thank you for your reply.

Dear brother I have looked more closely into your answer, and I just cannot see how

Exodus chapter 24 verse 3

Exodus chapter 34 verse 27-28

John chapter 17 verse 6-8

explain the question:

Sabbath given only for Israel and New Covenant Given to all people.

The texts that you quoted brother not only don't answer the question, but all of the texts that you have given are also given direct to Israel as well.

Exodus chapter 24 verse 3

To israel

Exodus chapter 34 verse 27-28

To israel

John chapter 17 verse 6-8

Jesus is praying for His disciples, which guess what, are all jews.

I would ask you, please could you reply to this message and explain how do these three texts answer your statement of a prior message in regard of the Sabbath being only for Israel?

John 17 6-8 Jesus is praying for His disciples. How on earth it answers the question?

This is your message.

==============

Jayyou,

You said

"So please, what I am asking you is this,

show me in scripture your logic for excluding yourself from partaking the sabbath and including yourself in partaking the new covenant."

And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

- Exodus chapter 24 verse 3(KJV)

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

- Exodus chapter 34 verse 27-28(KJV)

The Lord Jesus said

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

- John chapter 17 verse 6-8(KJV)

==================

I have looked more closely and just cannot see the connection.
Please dear brother, I would very much like to see your explanation for these three texts.

God bless you.

Dear Sis LittleGift,

I apologise for not having replied to you before.

Please allow me to comment on your last messages to me.

I have a few comments and questions for you.

You quote: """"Jay, what you seem to be failing to understand is that no earthly Sabbath is the original Sabbath!

There is a Sabbath that existed in God before the Creation, (if you can call it "before" when time probably didn't exist!) that is the original Sabbath."""""

Dear sister, please show me in the bible, where I can find this sabbath that you are talking about.

book-chapter and verse?

Then you quoted in revelation 11

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Question:
What is inside the Ark?
Is it the Ten Command. Or the Nine?
Since you mentione about the heavenly counterparts.

the Forth commandment that is inside the ark, Is it the same as the eartly ark?

For the earthly one says this....

Exodus 20:8-10 " Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God.

Now the Sabbath that God is talking about here.

Is it the one before creation or is it the created as the seventh day?

this is what I found out.

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

So, the fourth commandment on the Ten Commandments(as you said it yourself the earthly things were copy of the heavenly) is it talking about the same sabbath(seventh day) that God blessed and sanctified at the end of His creation?

===============

You quoted:""""That's one reason the Pharisees hated Jesus, because He insisted on keeping His Father's true eternal Sabbath rather than the limited, temporary expression of the Sabbath written in the Law of Moses""""

Dear sister, please correct me if I am wrong, but we know that Jesus never sinned, He was born under the law and fulfilled all the requirements of the law.

You are saying that Jesus kept the fourth commandment, which was different than the one stated in the Ten Commandments.

Again, show me

Book-chapter-verse to prove this,

This is what I have found.

Mark 1:21 Then they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and taught.

Luke 4:16 And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Well, aparently He did worship on the sabbath.

Question: Was this the same sabbath of Genesis two?

How about Jesus followers

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

what Sabbath was this dear sis?

Now, Scriptures tells us that He had a custom, and it happened on the SAbbath.

His followers Rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

How is it that you claim Jesus did not kept the Sabbath according to the commandments?

God bless you.

I will reply to you other messages separately.

++++++++

Hi again Jayyou,

Jayyou, I appreciate what you asked and I'll try to explain what I see there.

In both of the passages from Exodus I notice how there is a definite refrence to [b]the words[/b], which God gave to Moses and which he in turn gave to Israel. And these words are there presented as the covenant, or binding agreement between them, between them and God.

Now in John, the Lord Jesus, in a very similar way(as I see it anyway), says

[b][color=660000] I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me[/color][/b]

See that? And doesn't that remind us of how Moses did the same thing?

In Isaiah it says [i]...and the isles shall wait for his law[/i]. I think that is referring to Christ. At the end of Matthew's record it says the Lord commanded them to go and teach the nations what He commanded them and in Acts 1 it says the Lord had given them commandments.

You're right, the disciples were Jews, but later on the Lord says in His prayer

[b][color=660000] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [/color][/b]

See that also? Through their word, which, it seems to me, is what they preached and taught and also set forth as the doctrine of the Church.

Does this make sense?

Dear sister Littlegift,

please allow me comment and ask you a few question?

Even though I had asked you quite a few question on my last message, you failed to answer them, specially the ones asking for book-chapter-verse for some statements that you had made.
But instead you quote this.

Quote:"""""How is it that you claim Jesus did not kept the Sabbath according to the commandments?"""""

In which you gave the following answer.

Jesus was frequently accused of breaking the Sabbath!

Just so I know where you are coming from.

What do you really mean by saying thatesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath?

Did He or did he not keep the Sabbath according to the Command?

======

The other question in respect of me having a different bible Well I think if you look in all my posts you will see that I use NKJV, and no I do not read only the parts that support my ideas, I read it as a whole and yet I do not see it like you see it.
You are the one dear sister talking about a Sabbath before the Creation,

Here is what you said:

"""There is a Sabbath that existed in God before the Creation, (if you can call it "before" when time probably didn't exist!) that is the original Sabbath.""""

I asked you to give us the book-chapter-verse to support this statement.

I will not write more for I need your answer on the Jesus accused of breaking the Sabbath, we can go for there...

In love

I would appreciate if you could go back to my last message to you and answer some of the questions I put for you.

May God bless you.

I will comment further on this message later on....

Dear brother ChrisJD,

Thank you ever so much for your patience.

As I said before, we are not argueing here the fact that Salvation is for everyone who believes.
You can go back to the first message I posted you after you quoted these verses that I had given the same explanation as you did. However, I cannot see, and I hope I am not alone in this, for that would make me a stupid person, but I cannot see how the verses that you quoted:

-Establishes the fact that Sabbath is only for Israel and not for the Gentiles.
-Establishes that fact that the New Covenant is for everybody.

As you said before, Sabbath was given to Israel not argument there, but Isaiah 56 also talks about the Gentiles that would partake in it and all the blessings that would come with it.

The New covenant was also given to Israel and the House of Judah, but we know that all the Gentiles can partake in it.

My question is stil the Same,

I cannot see how the verses that you quoted above
establishes the fact that Sabbath is only for Israel but the New covenant is for everybody, despite of the Fact that God established both of them to Israel.

Do you see where I am coming from?

Would very much appreaciate your comments.

In love, Jayyou.....

Dear sister LittleGift,

As I said in my last post, Please allow me to comment on the rest of your answer.

Quote: """"No-one is saying it is wrong to keep the ordinary "human" Sabbath. As I said near the beginning, we were created with a need for one day's rest in seven.""""

Dear sister, Unless I misunderstood what you said. I believe That you very are wrong, Nowhere in scriptures you will find anything to back up such claim of one Day resting in Seven.

Scripture is very clear to me, God not only gave us the Sabbath(Seventh day of the week, Not a any day of the week as you claim) but explained it in much detail how we should keep it holy.

You claim that we should keep a day out of seven,
the bible says that it should be the Seventh day of the week, not any day.

It is all over scriptures.

I will show on my NKJV says about it. so you know what bible I am using.

First God tells us this:

Deuteronomy 5:12 ' Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.

Then He goes on saying How we are supposed to do that. God did not say, keep it Holy and that is it, it is up to everybody to figure out a way to accomplish that.

No, He was very specific as to how that should be done.

Here it is.

Deuteronomy 5:13-15 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Then we have a clear description on how the Sabbath day was being profaned in Nehemiah.

Nehemiah 13:15-19 In those days I saw people in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine, grapes, figs, and all kinds of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I warned them about the day on which they were selling provisions. 16 Men of Tyre dwelt there also, who brought in fish and all kinds of goods, and sold them on the Sabbath to the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem. 17 Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said to them, "What evil thing is this that you do, by which you profane the Sabbath day? 18 "Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath." 19 So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day.

In one place God tells us what we should do and how we should keep holy.

Then in another Scripture tell us what they were doing in order to profane it, I see no contradiction here.

Interesting fact,

We know that the day changes at sunset.

Mark tells us this.

Mark 1:29 Now as soon as they had come out of the synagogue, they entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.

What day did Jesus customarily went to the Synagogue?

so Mark goes on saying that Jesus cured Peter's mother-in-law fever.

but on verse 32 we have a surprise Here.

Mark 1:32-34 32 At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed. 33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door. 34 Then He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him.

My question to you is this, Why is that that Jesus waited until the Sunset of that Sabbath for Him to perfom all the healings?

=======

Another interesting Fact.

Mark 3:4 Then He said to them, "Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they kept silent.

Why on earth would Jesus ask them such a question?
Why would Jesus ask them if it is lawful to do good or evil on the sabbath? Is He saying that it is ok if you do evil on the other six days of the Week?

I would love to see your answer to this question?

You say that we are keeping petty laws, well show us then how are we to keep the sabbath as opposed to the way taught by God Himself in Exodus and Deuteronomy.

One fact remains dear Sister,

Either you Keep the true Sabbath, Seventh day of the Week, or you don't need to keep any other day, for in the whole word of God there is no such a place the substitute the The true sabbath day.
In Fact, Some people say that Jesus is our Sabbath, but there is a problem with this concept. The Sabbath that God gave us is a day,
the Seventh portion of time of the Week, it is a period of 24 hours, that start with the sunset Preparation day(friday) to Sunset Sabbath(Saturday)

Now how do you substitute Jesus for all of this?
To me it does not make sense at all?

Jesus is my saviour, not a day.
Jesus is my Creator, not the seventh portion time of the Week.
Jesus is my redeemer, doesn't have sunset to start or sunset to finish.

Just a few thoughts for you.

will write more in a different message talking about the rest of your message to me.

God bless you.

Dear sister, Please allow me to go on with my reply to you.

Quote: """"Jay, either you have a dishonest agenda of your own, (dishonest in the sense of having no intention of understanding or being convinced of the truth) or you still have the veil over the heart, as did the Jews of Paul's day who did not yet believe in Jesus. """""

Quote: """""We all need to know more in experience of this reflecting His glory and being transformed by His Spirit, but the first step is having that veil removed.

As Jesus said, it isn't a sin to be blind; the sin is when we are blind but insist we can see (John 9:41)!

Lord, search my heart too! Seeing this particular truth clearly doesn't mean I may not be blind to other things!"""""""

+++++++

Dear sister, These two estatements have one problem.

You and I are using the bible as our authority. You are 100% convinced that what you believe in right, There is just one problem with this,
I am 100% convinced that what I believe is the truth as well.

The problem is, we both cannot be right.

So, this is what can happen, I can take the very same word that you wrote and send them right back at you. I see the issue of the Sabbath so clear in my mind that I cannot believe people cannot see it, it is there so plain for all of us to see.

=====

The problem with what you said is that we both believe to be right.

So, who does have the veil covering their eyes?

One day we will know? won't we?......

In love

Dear sister,

I asked you this question.

"""""What do you really mean by saying thatesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath?

Did He or did he not keep the Sabbath according to the Command?"""""

I would like an answer if you can as in Yes He broke the Sabbath law or no He did not.

for you gave me a whole bunch of texts but I still do not know your answer.

Please if you can, I would like to know a more direct answer, so I can post you a reply on the subject.

Dear sister,

I make your words mine dear sister,

Are you listening to what I am saying?

Show me in the bible where the Sabbath day became a sabbath Person?

Dear sister it doesn't make sense what you are saying.

the old Sabbath as you call it, had a start and and end, sunset to sunset, it was the seventh portion of the week.

You cannot just substitute things because it is poetic.

quote: """ Why will you not understand?..."""

I think this is what you mean....

Why won't you agree with me jayyou?.....

Let me just comment on something you said:

quote: """"When I said you must have a different Bible, I didn’t mean it literally, only that you don’t seem to see what most Christians see re certain subjects!"""""

Dear sister I do not want to be part of the "Most Christians type of thing"""

This is what the bible says:

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

I want you to pay attention to the last part of the verse 14....

there are few who find it........

God bless you...

Hi Jayyou,

"The New covenant was also given to Israel and the House of Judah, but we know that all the Gentiles can partake in it."

Well, a promise of it was made, like you had mentioned before, but also in John it says

[b][color=000000]He came unto his own, and his own received him not. [/color][/b]

- John 1:11(KJV)

But then it says,

[b][color=000000] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [i]even[/i] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/color][/b]

- John 1:12-13(KJV)

[b][color=000000]And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [i]it[/i] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. [/color][/b]

- Exodus 24:7-8(KJV)

[i]...concerning all these words[/i]

[b][color=660000] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [i]them[/i], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.[/color][/b]

- John 17:6-8(KJV)

[i]I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me[/i]

In the Law it says

[b][color=000000]Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. [/color][/b]

- Deuteronomy 27:26(KJV)

But in John it says

[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [/color][/b]

- John 5:24(KJV)

[b][color=000000] As for me, this [i]is[/i] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [i]is[/i] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and forever. [/color][/b]

- Isaiah 59:21(KJV)

Chris

Dear brother ChrisJd,

Thank you again for your reply.

Dear brother, I think we are talking in two different languages. I am talking about one thing and you are talking about something else.

We have already stablished dear brother that SAlvation if for all who believe in the Name of Jesus, No matter if we are Jew or Gentile.

That is not the issue at hand.

The issue here is,

Sabbath and New covenant.

This discussion started because you claimed that the Sabbath was only for the Jews. Granted.

However, you claim to be in the New covenant, and I said that the new covenant is something also given to Israel and the House of judah.

I then asked you, please give us your explanation, and back it up with scriptures, why is that you think

Sabbath = Jew
New Covenant = Everybody.

You then gave me some bible texts, that showed the Old covenant being given to Israel, and another bible text showing Jesus praying for the His disciples.

Now, I know that the Sabbath was given to israel.

What I have asked you and so far you have failed to give me an answer is

How those texts explaing the fact that you exclude yourself for the Sabbath and include yourself in the new covenant, keeping in mind that both of them were given to Israel?

So far in your explanation of the texts that you gave, you even failed to mention the word Sabbath. You keep mentioning "Concerning all these words" but How does that exclude you from the Sabbath and include you in the New covenant,

That is the issue at hand?

Please answer, how do you exclude yourself from the sabbath and include yourself in the new covenant?

I am sorry to say dear brother but the texts that you have given us so far, has absolutely nothing to do with the question, Sabbath = new covenant.

God bless you.

Hi again Jayyou,

Jayyou, you said

"However, you claim to be in the New covenant, and I said that the new covenant is something also given to Israel and the House of judah."

I think Paul explains this this way,

[b][color=000000] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 3:16(KJV)

[i]...And to thy seed, which is Christ[/i]

He says the seed is Christ.

Compare with Ps 22:22,30, Is 8:18, 53:10, 59:21.

And in John it says

[b][color=000000] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [i]even[/i] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/color][/b]

- John 1:12-13(KJV)

Jayyou, you also said

"You keep mentioning "Concerning all these words" but How does that exclude you from the Sabbath and include you in the New covenant,..."

Aren't the words of a covenant important? What else are covenants based upon but their words?

In the Law it says

[b][color=000000] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [i]is[/i] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [i]any[/i] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. [/color][/b]

- Exodus 31:15(KJV)

[i]...the sabbath of rest[/i]

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000] Come unto me, all [i]ye[/i] that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [/color][/b]

- Matthew 11:28(KJV)

[i]...I will give you rest[/i]

In the Law it says

[b][color=000000]Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I [i]am[/i] the LORD. [/color][/b]

- Leviticus 19:30(KJV)

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000]...in this place is [i]one[/i] greater than the temple[/color][/b]

and

[b][color=660000]...the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day[/color][/b]

Matthew 12:6,8(KJV)

Chris

Dear broter ChrisJD.

Dear brother, I think I must have repeated the same question about ten times and yet all you have said is the fact the the New Covenant is for all who believe.

The question that you have to answer yet is this.

Show me how you exclude yourself from the Sabbath and include yourself in the new covenant?

A very simple question.

I am sorry for saying this brother, but you said this before.

"""""It is good that we do not have to rely on your points for instruction."""""""

And yet you cannot answer a simple question.

Please, show me in scripture what you said before.

You said that the Sabbath is only for Israel, but the new covenant for everybody?

God bless....

Dear Sister Jeannette,

I have read your message, do not have much time now, but I promise to reply to it soon.

I do not want you to think that I am not interested in what yo have written, but I need more time to write a reply.

God bless you.....

Hi again Jayyou,

Jayyou, you asked again,

"Please, show me in scripture what you said before.

You said that the Sabbath is only for Israel, but the new covenant for everybody?"

[b][color=000000]And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. [/color][/b]

- Exodus 34:27-28(KJV)

[i]And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments[/i]

This is the covenant made between God and the [b]children of Israel[/b]. Right?

[b][color=000000]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/color][/b]

- John 1:12-13(KJV)

[i]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God[/i]

This is the New covenant, right? Made with who, those born of natural means, be they Jews or gentiles, or those born some other way?

[b][color=000000] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he [i]who was[/i] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [i]was[/i] by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[/color][/b]

- Galatians 4:22-26(KJV)

Two covenants. Two sets of words or terms which make up the covenants. Two different peoples.

Does this help at all?

Thanks,

Chris

Jayyou,

About this in particular,

'...but the new covenant for everybody?"'

I think what I had written was that it was [i]for all peoples[/i], that is, that it is for all ethinic groups, or tribes if you will.

I'm pretty sure that is what I had in mind if I recall correctly what you are referring to.

But I definitely think that the 7th day Sabbath is exclusively for the children of Israel(that ethinic group).

[b][color=000000] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [i]for[/i] a perpetual covenant. It [i]is[/i] a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for [i]in[/i] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. [/color][/b]

- Exodus 31:16-17(KJV)

Thanks,

Chris

jayyou wrote:
Dear broter ChrisJD.

Please, show me in scripture what you said before.

You said that the Sabbath is only for Israel

Excuse me for interrupting here. Perhaps I can give you a couple of Scriptures on this.

"And remember that thou was a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day" (Dt. 5.15).

"Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them" (Ezek. 20.12).

So, the sabbath day, and the sabbaths (the feasts) were given Israel when they came out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, of toil, servitude, of hard labour... (God called Canaan The Rest) ...and they were given as a "sign." The sabbaths given under the Law were "a sign." And a sign is something that points to a coming destination, a "fulfillment," as Sister Jeannette has brought out.

That one word, "fulfillment," ...if we all could come to an Spirit-inspired understanding of this one word, oh, what a lot would be cleared up in our thinking, and in our understanding of the whole purposes of God.

Hope this helps a bit.

AD

Dear brother Adisciple,

Thank you and welcome.

Dear brother Adisciple, please allow me to comment on your message.

Dear brother, our other brother ChrisJD and I had established that the Sabbath was given to Israel as a written law, However God had established the sabbath way before that,

In the second chapter of Genesis God established the Seventh day Rest.

then you will come ans say well there is no mention of the Sabbath before Israel, Yes, but that only prove that the sabbath was established and not the other way around. I do not understand peoples logic to think that God established something, nothing is mentioned about it, so therefore it was not being obeserved? Kind strange logic to me.

Anyway, then we have this statment in Genesis about Abraham.

Genesis 26:4-5 and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Aparently way before Israel was established as a nation, Someone was obeying God's voice, God's commandments, statutes and laws.

Is it possible that Abraham enjoyed the obeservance of the Sabbath? For it is very clear to me, that God had all that established, and by that I mean.

voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

But you are going to say, well the Sabbath is not included in that.

Now, Inspite of the fact that the seventh day was established in Creation, we can assume that people were observing it through Abraham.

you say that it was given to israel and israel alone. Ok....

but we come to the very same place where my discussion with dear brother ChrisJD started.

Sabbath = Israel.
New covenant = Israel.

All you did brother was to say that the SAbbath was only for israel. we know that already, and as I said before so is the new covenant.

here it is..

Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Someone Here said that the new convert Jews into Christianity do not have to keep the sabbath, I just have one problem with that.

when God said Perpetual covenant He used the same words when He described the covenant with Noah.

Genesis 9:12 And God said: "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

Thank God I was given the assurance that God does not change, whatever He said is perpetual, you better believe is perpetual.

Now, we also have established that the New covenant was given to Israel but we are partakers of it.

Question for you brother:

Show me where in the bible it tells me withouth a shadow of a doubt that,

How do you include yourself in the New covenant and exclude yourself from the blessing of the Sabbath?

keep in mind,

Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -

Hebrews 8:8 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -

Sabbath given to israel only.
New covenant Israel and the house of judah.

Please show me how you include yourself in their promises but exclude yourself from sabbath observance?

That is what we want to know?

waiting for your answer......

God bless us all.....

jayyou wrote:
Dear brother Adisciple,

Question for you brother:

Show me where in the bible it tells me withouth a shadow of a doubt that,

How do you include yourself in the New covenant and exclude yourself from the blessing of the Sabbath?

Please show me how you include yourself in their promises but exclude yourself from sabbath observance?

God bless us all.....

Greetings, Jayyou.

First let me say that this is a lengthy thread, with two or three conversations going on at the same time. And many others throughout this thread have spoken to this clearly, in my estimation.

So I can only add my own witness, which is that the New Covenant Sabbath is something far higher than merely observing one calendar day out of the week. This is very clear in Scriptures that others have already quoted on this thread. (For example, Hebrews Ch. 3 and 4, and Colossians 3. 16,17). And THIS is the blessing of the Sabbath you talk about.

The New Covenant Sabbath is the Rest of God into which He purposes to bring His people, and which was typified by the Canaan heritage... and which is a very big thing in the purposes of God. We are admonished to be watchful we don't come short of it.

"There remaineth therefore a Rest to the people of God" (Heb. 3.9). And the word "rest" here is "sabbatismos," which means, a "keeping of the sabbath."

This is to be the pursuit of those who hear His Voice TODAY, and harden not their hearts.

It's something obviously above and beyond the observing of one day out of seven, and in fact, as some teachers point out, involves the whole people of God (to a man) entering into this "seventh day" of the Lord's purposes in the earth. As I said, a very big thing.

So, those who in clear conscience keep no particular day of the week as a sabbath, these are not to be judged by those who do.

At the same time, it seems clear that there is allowance for those who, with a weaker conscience, decide they ought to keep one day above the others (Rom. 14.5). (And at the same time, those who don't aren't to judge them either.)

In my working days, I often had to work Sundays, and often had to miss fellowship because of it. I often felt I was missing out, but then, I would discover the Lord with me. The Lord came to work with me! His Presence was with me right there on the job. He was obviously not offended by my having to work that particular Sunday. Now, I KNOW this... He was with me. Or else I am totally out in left field and know nothing of the Presence of the Spirit in my heart.

(Actually it might be better to say it was the Lord who was going to work, and calling me to follow Him. For I know that that job was His will for me at that time in my life.)

The same with Saturdays, when I had to work Saturdays. And so, I would take some other day, a Tuesday or whatever, and set it aside to wait on the Lord.

So... if someone feels they want to set aside a day of the week unto the Lord, whether a Tuesday, or a Friday, or a Sunday... or whatever... there's nothing wrong with doing that. And it does seem that Sunday is a day when most Christians are free from job commitments, and can take time to gather together.

But it doesn't fulfill the Sabbath of Christ.

I'd like to encourage those who are so insistent on keeping the seventh day sabbath (by which I think they mean Saturday) ...be careful you don't think by this that you have somehow fulfilled the sabbath commandment, and sell yourself short of the awesome "Day" God is leading us into. Jesus says it so simply. "Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you Rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find Rest unto your souls."

So, the yoke of Christ. That is the True Sabbath.

I guess what it amounts to in all this... I observe that it's pretty difficult-- in this thread and in a whole range of similar threads in which this matter of the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New is debated again and again from various angles-- it seems difficult to bring those who are looking at things from an Old Covenant point of view into the higher realm of the New Covenant, and the Kingdom of God.

It was a great struggle in the days when the New Covenant first broke forth. And it seems to be happening again (intensifying again, I mean).

It makes me think of the many times our Lord said, "He that hath an ear let him hear," Or words to that effect.

Perhaps we, too, need to leave it at that.

AD

Dear sister LittleGift.

Thank you for your messages and I want to apologise for not having had time to reply before.

Please allow me to comment on some things that you said.

First of all

The text in Luke 6:1 Lu 6:1

And it came to pass on the second Sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
=====

I am sorry sister but to me it only tells me that there was a sequence of two sabbaths, Nothing more.

You yourself said this...

"""""In the Gospel narrative it simply means the next Sabbath, but He obviously meant something more than that in this case!"""""

I am sorry but I do not see this something else that you are talking about.

You are laboring to much dear sister. I once mentioned Hebrews 3/4 to say that God rested on the seventh day, and you wrote to me saying that I was twisting scriptures to make it say what I wanted it to say.

I believe that the Gospel has to be by nature something very simple for us to understand, otherwise only theologians would be able to understand it, and I believe that when we read the bible it should tells us, very clearly what God is trying to tells us, Jesus said this Himself.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
=====

You have talked about a second sabbath, before in another message you talked about a real sabbath that was before creation, I asked you to explain about it but never got an answer.

===========

You then talked about a baby that is circumcised on the 8th day and you asked why?

Dear sister it is very simple, I have no problem with that, God gave circumcision of the flesh as a sign and nothing more.

You asked why Abraham had to be circumcised. I do not think that abraham circumcision has anything to do with what we are talking about.

======

Then you talked about Jesus and nicodemus.

You quoted:"""9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can this be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?"""""

what does Jesus mean with ""This""?

John 3:3 "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:4-5 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The being born again that Jesus is talking about is the baptism of water and spirit, Unless you do this you cannot be saved, Jesus words not mine.....

then you asked me this question.

"""""""Do you know the new birth, are you a new creation in Christ? Do you speak of the things you know by the Holy Spirit? """"""""

Dear sister if I do not talk through the Holy Spirit there is just someone else left, and that would be somehow an offensive thing to say...

I am sorry dear sister but the revelation that you claim to have had, I just don't see it the same way, maybe it is just me......

God bless you......

Dear sister LittleGift,

please allow me to comment on what you wrote to me and chris,

you quote:"""and probably Chris's, there is no exclusion from the Sabbath, only a fulfillment."""

I have just one problem and some questions with this answer dear sister,

Was this fulfillment for the Jew and for the Gentile or just for the Gentile.

The bible says:

Romans 2:10-11 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

So, did Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath for the Jew as well?

If you answer is yes, then we have a problem because the bible also says that the SAbbath is a perpetual covenant with the children of Israel,

If you say no, Jesus did not fulfill it for the Jew, then you are saying that God will judge us with partiality.

Which one is it?

++++++++

Quote: """Being a law unto himself meant that man was no longer able to keep God's law, however hard he tried.

Especially the Sabbath."""""

Dear sister I do not even know where to start here.

Now, I ask you this, what God do you serve that gives His people laws that they cannot follow, a God that establishes guidances that He knows we will fail.

I am sorry for saying this dear sister but this was the same arguments Satan used in heaven to take a third of the Angels with Him. I would be very careful before making statments such as this.

This is a few comments of God's law for you.
a few statements from DAvid and some others.

Deuteronomy 4:8 "And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

Psalm 119:18 Open my eyes, that I may see Wondrous things from Your law.

Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

You can read the whole of Psalm 119 it is amazing.....

Aparently dear sister the apostle Paul had a very different concept of the law.

Quote: """"God knew that they would be unable to keep the Sabbath as it was intended that man should keep it,""""""

Dear sister again I ask you, what God do you serve?
The One I serve gives me law that is holy, and commandments that are holy and just and good.

Now you claimed that no one could keep the commandments, law, or sabbath. Well Let's see.....

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Genesis 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

and the list goes on and on.....

Aparently dear sister there are people who did it.
======

I get a bit worried with people that use arguments as this,

unfair laws,
Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath.
==========

quote:"""""As I said before, it's much more than keeping a particular day!""""

dear sister, I am sorry for saying this but God gave us very simple and clear instructions to show us how we should spend our sabbaths, whatever it is said besides it, it is man's words.

Deuteronomy 5:12-14 ' Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

In my point of view, God could not have put it any simpler.....

If I were you I would reconsider some of the estatements here,

God gave us holy laws, just laws and fair commandments.

so much so, that He ordered us to:

Genesis 17:1 "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

How could God ask this of Abraham if He knew Abraham would fail?

it just does't make any sense.
========

So, my question to you is:

Is the sabbath still binding for the Jew or Jesus fulfilled it for them as well?

I do not believe that you gave a satisfactory answer to the question the dear brother ChrisJd hasn't answer yet.

Sabbath to the Jew, but so was the New Covenant.

How do you include yourself in one but excluded yourself from the other?

Dear brother Adisciple:

Greetings to you.

I thoroughly enjoyed your message, Please allow me to comment on a few points.

You mentioned the fact that we should set aside one day, it doesn't really matter when. I have two main problems with this.

First, Cain sacrifice = Cain offered His best and yet God did not accept his sacrifice. And God said,

Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

Now the commandment is Keep the seventh day Holy, not any other day.

Question, an Israelite, could he do the same as you have claimed, could He choose any day of the week or it was the SAbbath?
Well we know the end of the guy that was gathering sticks on the sabbath.

Second, this freedom to choose what day to worship/observe. can I apply it to all the other commandments as well? Do I have allowances on the other commandments, for instance,

To kill
To lie
To Covet
To worship images
To blaspheme
To worship other gods
To honor mother and father

I do not know but either we follow all of them the way God told us to or we also follow all the other to the best of our habilities.

Now Cain sacrifice, Do you think God was harsh by not accepting it?
Was God harsh by not allowing Moses and Aaron because Moses hit the Rock?

Let me ask you a question:

On judgement day how do you think that man that was stoned because he gathered some sticks on the sabbath will think of God's judgments when he is condenmed just after you being sent to heaven having never observed the sabbath?
If you were in his shoes how would you feel.

I know that the way I said it makes one think that the sabbath is a heavy burden that one has to carry, and it isn't at all, I used this language for argument sake, for I believe the sabbath is a gift from God, He is the one who sanctifies me.

but it is a requirement of the Ten Commandments, I would love to see your comments on this....

God bless you..

Hi again everyone.

Jayyou,

You said,

"Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -

Hebrews 8:8 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -

Sabbath given to israel only.
New covenant Israel and the house of judah."

These were two houses of a divided kingdom, each with their own kings.

Kingdoms have their own laws. In this case their's was a covenant between them and God, called the law of Moses.

In Matthew it says,

[b][color=000000]From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, [/color][/b]

[b][color=660000]Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. [/color][/b]

- Matthew 4:17(KJV)

Not the Kingdom of Israel, or of Judah, but the Kingdom of Heaven.

How would anyone now, according to the Lord Jesus, the King, enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, be they of the house of Israel, or of Judah, or otherwise?

[b][color=000000] Jesus answered, [/color][/b]

[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [i]of[/i] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [/color][/b]

- John 3:5(KJV)

No matter who they were, what family they had been born to, what kingdom they had formerly belonged to or what laws they were formerly under, they had to be born again.

See again John 1:12-13.

Jesus, the King, came and gave the words of this new Kingdom and brought in its New Covenant.

So then, how does anyone partake of the New covenant?

By a new birth.

As to this continuing question of the 7th Day Sabbath, maybe we could ask the question a bit differently:

Where does King Jesus command His subjects to keep the 7th day sabbath as it was given in the Law of Moses?

Hi Jayyou,

You had asked AD about this,

"Second, this freedom to choose what day to worship/observe. can I apply it to all the other commandments as well? Do I have allowances on the other commandments, for instance,

To kill
To lie
To Covet
To worship images
To blaspheme
To worship other gods
To honor mother and father"

Why does someone led by the Spirit of God need to be instructed out of the Ten Commandments?

If two kingdoms have similar laws, do the subjects of the one have to follow the other in order to follow their own?

[b][color=000000]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 5:18(KJV)

Chris

Hi, Jayyou.

You asked for my response to your questions, but I don't think I can do better than refer you to what Walter said. (And many others are telling you the same.)

I wonder if you would be open to a suggestion. Can I encourage you to be before the Lord with an open heart, and reading 2 Cor. Chapters 3 and 4?

...Because it is just as true today, obviously, that the veil that was over the hearts of the people of old can be there over our hearts as well.

"But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart" (2 Cor. 3.15).

Paul says Moses put a veil over his face to the intent that the Israelites should not see the fading glory on his face. And he says this was a prophetic thing Moses was doing, representing, actually, the veil on the hearts and minds of the people that prevented them from seeing that in Christ, the old covenant is done away.

What suffering the apostle went through at the hands of his own beloved brethren the Jews as he sought to bring this Gospel to them!

It is my painful observation that this same veil is over the hearts of many today who, it seems, even though they be Christians, are very much like those Israelites of old, and somehow are simply unable to see (or maybe unwilling to see) the glory of the New Covenant, blindly insisting over and over again that the Old Covenant Laws and Sabbaths and other injunctions are still in effect in their shadow form.

This so perplexes me. Because the New Covenant Glory and Sabbath and Law are so much more wondrous than the old! What do people suppose they are gaining by holding so tenaciously to these Old Covenant things? I confess, I am very perplexed by it all.

(But I am coming to the place where I have to start seeing that the Enemy is involved in all this. He certainly knows what's at stake.)

There is only one solution for this kind of blindness, and Paul gives it to us.

"Nevertheless, when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is THE SPIRIT, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (3.17).

Again, he is speaking of the little prophetic "parable" Moses acted out. For when Moses went in to speak with the Lord, he took the veil off.

I emphasize this. "Now the LORD is THE SPIRIT."

Let us turn to the Lord, all of us, and give the Spirit of the Lord His Lordship. He will guide us into all the Truth.

May I exhort you, Jayyou, please don't sell yourself short of the True Sabbath. Which is-- and you said I was picking and choosing my own Sabbath, but if you read my post I said clearly no one day in the calendar week can fulfill the new covenant Sabbath. "TODAY... if ye will hear His Voice, harden not your heart..."

...I came into this thread late, and am not sure I will have too much more to say. I am just one witness, but it seems to me that when three or four witnesses are in harmony speaking the same thing (I mean, along with the Spirit of God) there is weight to it. What I mean is that you must carefully consider that it might be GOD speaking to you, and not just a few Christians.

AD

Hi everyone,

Strider100,

About this,

'Yeshua himself confirmed the Torah in Matthew - "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.'

[i]...one of these least commandments[/i]

What do you mean by 'confirmed the torah?'

He goes on to say

[b][color=660000] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time...[/color][/b]

[b][color=660000]But I say unto you...[/color][/b]

Also, regarding Matthew 5:17-18,

In Luke it says,

[b][color=660000] And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [/color][/b]

- Luke 21:20-22(KJV)

jayyou wrote:
Dear brother Adisciple:

Let me ask you a question:

On judgement day how do you think that man that was stoned because he gathered some sticks on the sabbath will think of God's judgments when he is condenmed just after you being sent to heaven having never observed the sabbath?
If you were in his shoes how would you feel.

it is a requirement of the Ten Commandments

Jayyou,

You are right that keeping the Sabbath is a requirement of the Ten Commandments.

And so we have this in Hebrews:

"For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward, how shall we escape [b]if we negelct so great salvation[/b]..." (Heb. 2.2,3).

And also this:

"He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, [b]who hath trodden under foot the Son of God[/b], and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath [b]done despite to the Spirit of grace?[/b]" (Heb. 11.29).

Do you see, Jayyou, how serious a matter it is to put yourself under the Law as given by Moses, and tread under foot the Son of God, and the Blood of the everlasting Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace? I tremble to read that. I wonder that you do not tremble also.

...And as for your comment about my not observing the Sabbath, I remind you of the experience I had when the Lord led me to work on Sundays, and yes, on Saturdays... LED ME, I say, and was there right on the job WITH ME. Do you know what I was doing? I was keeping Sabbath with Him! What wonderful times of fellowship we had together in His Rest! And He bore witness of His pleasure in my working hard to do a good job for my employer.

Thank you, Jesus, for Your Sabbath! Continue to lead me, dear Lord, and cause me to keep Sabbath with You all my days! Let Your Spirit of Grace rule in my life, causing me to turn MY foot from Your Sabbath, not doing MY pleasure on YOUR Holy Day... that I may call Your Sabbath a DELIGHT, the Holy of the LORD, Honourable, honouring YOU... not doing MY OWN ways, or finding MY OWN pleasures, nor speaking MY OWN WORDS... whether it be on Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday, or Wednesday, or Thursday, or Friday, or Saturday... but rather, TODAY if I will hear Your Voice, hardening not my heart...

For it remains that SOME must enter into Your Sabbath, dear Lord... and I by Your grace want to be one of them. Amen.

AD

Thanks, Jeannette, for your encouragement.

...Stephen,

Thanks for correcting my scripture reference.

Your inability to understand my comment on that passage in Hebrews arises because what you call obeying the commandments of God and what I call obeying the commandments of God are two different things.

You teach (if I understand you correctly) that the sacrifice of Christ puts us in the position to now be able to obey the Torah as given by Moses.

I say that this is to tread under foot the Son of God, and do despite to the Spirit of grace.

For, the Spirit of grace enables us to keep not the shadow of the Law (called the Torah in the Old Testament) but the VERY IMAGE of that Torah, the FULFILLMENT of that Torah: our Lord Jesus Christ. And we are under GRACE now, that is to say, under a far higher Law than the Torah of Moses, under GRACE, even "the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus."

Yes, you are correct in pointing out that we are to have His Law written in our hearts and minds.

Not the SHADOW of that Law, but the REALITY that cast the shadow in the first place.

So, as far as the commandments go, it appears that what you call Sabbath, and what I call Sabbath, are two different things.

I shared an experience from my working days when, having to work Saturdays, or Sundays, I enjoyed beautiful fellowship with the Spirit of Grace. I was working on a hard job, but I was keeping Sabbath with the Lord while doing so.

I ask you: was I sinning by working Saturdays? Was I transgressing the Law?

Another question. You seem to be able to see quite clearly that the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the Torah commandments concerning the sacrifices.

Why is it that you are unable (or unwilling) to see that He fulfilled the rest of the Torah as well?

...I hope you will not consider me impolite to ask this, but... Do you eat pork?

...And, do you observe the feasts of the Torah after the earthly calendar?

I ask because I have friends who, like yourself, embrace that Jesus fulfilled the sacrifices of the Law... but at the same time they are heavily involved in Shabbat (Saturday Sabbath) and some of the dietary regulations (but just "some"), and some of the feasts as well (but just "some)... and even though they are Gentiles whose native language is English, they call Jesus Yeshua, as you do.

...All of which is quite perplexing to me, since we are told that, if that's the route you are going to go, you have to keep ALL of it. (I know, to get around this people start dissecting the Torah, calling part of it the Moral Law, and part of it the... I forget what terminology they use... ceremonial law. But you can't do this. The Torah is all of one piece, one single whole.)

...It's all such cloudiness. (And there's so much of it these days in a lot of Christian circles.) Lacking in clear light. Lacking in the True Light.

It's that veil I spoke to Jayyou about. (2 Cor. Ch. 3). People with eyes to see, but seeing not. Reading the Bible (whether old or new testament) with a veil upon their hearts.

AD

All right, Stephen, I think you've now shown fully where you are at.

And I think I, and others, have done the same, seeking to show you that there is a realm of Light above and beyond the shadows of the Torah.

...They like to keep these threads on a discussion basis, so I think, for my part, this will by my last post on this thread. (Quite a few others have already said good-bye to it, obviously, but I came in late.)

May the Lord Jesus Christ give us, all of us, the discernment we need to walk with Him in this great hour. And for our part, may we SEEK that discernment, and be among those who receive "[b]the love of[/b] the truth, that they may be saved" (1 Thes. 2.10).

AD

Quote:

"Yes, you are correct in pointing out that we are to have His Law written in our hearts and minds."

We have much more than just the Law written in our hearts, which is for Israel in the millennium, we have the Law Giver Himself in our hearts and minds and spirits, The whole fulfillment of every law that God gave to Moses, iincluding the 10 Commandments, that is the Christ in you.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

How is the whole law fulfilled?

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Jhn 15:25 But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Think not that I am come, etc. Our Saviour was just entering on his work. It was important for him to state what he came to do. By his setting up to be a teacher in opposition to the Scribes and Pharisees, some might charge him with an intention to destroy their law, and abolish the customs of the nation. He therefore told them that he did not come for that end, but really to fulfil or accomplish what was in the law and the prophets. To destroy. To abrogate; to deny their Divine authority; to set men free from the obligation to obey them from a self righteous works oriented heart, but a new heart of flesh, that is Christ Jesus Himself born again in the believer and given a New Spirit, a New Mind and will be given a New Body just like His.

To complete the design; to fill up what was predicted; to accomplish what was intended in them. The word fulfil, also, means sometimes to teach or inculcate, Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The law of Moses contained many sacrifices and rites which were designed to shadow forth the Messiah, Heb 9:1-28. These were fulfilled when he came and offered himself a sacrifice to God--
Hebrews 9:11-14 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Now obeying God from a pure heart of Love, which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory", instead of a self-works righteousness which is contained in the Law that no man can keep.

When does the believer die to sin?

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

On the Cross, we died to sin, with Him making us new creatures in Christ Jesus.
The creature God intended all His creation to be when He created Adam, which he missed the Tree of Life that we now have. That is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

There is no Law, or there is law, as circumcision our uncircumcision does not exist in Christ Jesus, but a new heart and Life in Christ. Christ Himself gave us only one law, The Law of Love in Christ Jesus. This fulfills the whole Law of God, the first and second commandment which Christ specifically says "fulfills the whole Law". No more 3 through 10 or the Torah.

In Christ: Phillip

Re: days of the week, all our days, in English, are named after pagan gods. Didn't you know that??? Saturday is the day of the god/planet Saturn!

So if those who keep Sunday as special are worshipping Mithras, you who keep Saturday are worshipping Saturn!

That is not really true, because Biblically speaking those who keep the Sabbath as the the 7th day Sabbath (which is Saturday) do not attribute the "name" of the day as what is important or being worshipped, rather that numerically, "Saturday" is the 7th Day, which it is the number 7 that denotes the Sabbath (not the name of the day)

In scripture, according to God, the names or titles of days in a week were according to numbers not names (though we have them now, that still doesn't change the fact that originially scripturally it is a numeric system)

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the [b]first day[/b].

Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the [b]second day. [/b]

Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the [b]third day[/b]

Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the [b]fourth day[/b]

Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the [b]fifth day[/b].

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the [b]sixth day[/b]

Genesis 2:1-31 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the [b]seventh day[/b] God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

You should be reprimanded and put in a cage till you repent you slanderer of the brethren.

These types of sharp exchanges are unacceptable in the forums. This is not a place to demean our brothers and sisters; although disagreements over certain issues are often unavoidable among brethren, this does not give allowance for sharp and hurtful comebacks.

But I notice that you and [i]your ilk[/i] think nothing of this.

This is also unacceptable; please do not get personal and judge character. You have no idea who this sister's [i]ilk[/i] is anyhow. We are all typing words over the internet and this sterile electronic vehicle is hardly an accurate judge of one's character and heart during debates.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

This is where Christians get the Sun day and also His resurrection on the first day of the week, which is Sunday.

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Who are we to worship together? What better day than His resurrection day which gives all believers life, by His Seed that is birthed in us.

Rev 20:6 (((((Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection:))))) on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

This is taking the scripture out of context, but the First resurrection must be important to God. I would think that if worshiping on Sunday the first day of the week to commemorate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ His Son, It would seem a fitting day to God, even more than the Day He rested from His works of the earth and a day to give Israel rest from their works and making it a specific day unto the Law of Moses and the 10 commands for worshiping God and His coming Lord of All. "The Old has passed away and behold all thing have become New".

These resurrection works are also God's Great works in His Son rising with healing in His wings.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Christ is now our Sabbath and each day is a Sabbath day, but only One is a resurrection day.

Worshiping Jesus Christ on His day, being Sunday, Him being our true Sabbath and Rest, and the Lord of it.

Hebrews 4:3-5 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

What is this Place again?

Strong's Greek Dictionary
5129. touto (this)
Search for G5129 in KJVSL
touto touto too'-to
dative case singular masculine or neuter of 3778; to (in, with or by) this (person or thing):--here(-by, -in), him, one, the same, there(-in), this.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3825. palin (place again)
Search for G3825 in KJVSL
palin palin pal'-in
probably from the same as 3823 (through the idea of oscillatory repetition); (adverbially) anew, i.e. (of place) back, (of time) once more, or (conjunctionally) furthermore or on the other hand:--again.

Now In Him.

In Christ: Phillip

Very good word, Walter, thanks for sharing this, it's given me new insight.

AD

Dear brother ChrisJD,

Thank you again for your message.

Dear brother, in regard of the question that I have beeing asking you for quite sometime I am sorry to say that, at least for me, You have not answered it, you are going round and round and you finish in the same place that you started.

Quote: """"These were two houses of a divided kingdom, each with their own kings.

Kingdoms have their own laws. In this case their's was a covenant between them and God, called the law of Moses."""""

Dear brother when the Old Covenant was given, there was just one people Israel and One law, there was not even kings, so I don't see the relevance of it.

Then you said:

quote:"""In Matthew it says,

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,

Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

- Matthew 4:17(KJV)

Not the Kingdom of Israel, or of Judah, but the Kingdom of Heaven.

How would anyone now, according to the Lord Jesus, the King, enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, be they of the house of Israel, or of Judah, or otherwise?""""

Again, you did not address the question at hand.

We are not discussing how one should enter into the kingdom of heaven, but we are discussing how you claim that the

Sabbath is for the Jew and the New covenant is for everbody.

But just to make a comment on it.

When Jesus said in mathews 4:17 that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, at that time He was preaching for the Jews not Gentiles.

and we know that salvation then was only for the jews.

John 4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

=====

Just as a way to show you that even your answer the you posted here when it was given was also given to Israel.

Quote:""""So then, how does anyone partake of the New covenant?

By a new birth.""""

Dear brother I have said it many many times, the issue at hand is not the fact that we all are partakers on the New Covenant.

The issue here is,

You said that the sabbath is only for israel, the very same people the new covenant for given to.

My problem is when it comes to the promises and blessings, no Jew no greek.

but when it comes to the commandments, then it is only for them,

You still have not showed me where in the bible is found the explaination for your theory of exclusion.

+++++

You asked me a very good question dear brother.

Quote:"""Where does King Jesus command His subjects to keep the 7th day sabbath as it was given in the Law of Moses?""""

Now it doesn't take a rocket cientist to figure this one out.

Luke 23:55-56 And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Now Here we do not have a direct commandments, but it is very clear that the followers of Christ Kept the sabbath.

I ask you, If you were one of the people that were following Jesus, Here you have the Messiah, the Son of God, and you are His disciple, if Jesus did not keep the sabbath according to the commandment, would you do it?
I would not, If I called myself His follower and He did not keep I would not keep it either, but we know that it did not happen this way.

They kept the sabbath according to the commandment just like their Master did, but this is another shocking thing that Jesus said, and if this does not answer your question about the validation of the SAbbath nothing will..

Matthew 23:2-3 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Wow, what did Jesus just say?

That we should observe everything the scribes and pharisees told them to obeserve, but here is the catch, do what they tell you to, but don't do they way they do, for they are just words not actions.

So, Yes this tells me without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus just confirmed the sabbath.

====

God bless you.....

Dear sister LittlGift,

Thank you for your message.

Please allow me to comment on it, I will be commenting of two of your messages in this one.

You dear sister love to teach us, and you come with your ideas saying that the Holy Spirit is giving you this explanation about certain things and then you quoted a verse in Luke,

You used the verse totally out of context, and when I said that I disagreed to the way you saw that, I asked you questions, just like I did many other times, but you have never answered my questions, You can go back to all the messages that I have written to you and tyou will see that there are dozens of questions and so far you have answered none, you somehow evade them or you come to me and say, you totally misusnderstood me. Please show me where I have misunderstood you and explain to me, If you think you have something to teach us then show us.

I apologize to you for saying these words but just like you, I feel weary to answers peoples questions but never get my questions answered.

You gave a text in Galatians, and you again are using the text to support your argument, when in fact it does not.

you quoted Galatians 3:1-4:26,

And Yes Paul is talking about going back to the Law, but what Law if Paul is talking about?

Here is the Reason why Paul asked who had bewithced you.

the chapter before the one that you quoted says this:

Galatians 2:3-4 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),

+++++++
Circumcision, that is what Paul is talking about.
+++++++

Galatians 2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Galatians 2:12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

Galatians 2:14-16 If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

+++++
When Paul is talking about the works of the law, He is talking about circumcision.

Peter warned us of people that would distort scriptures.

2 Peter 3:15-16 as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

======

I would appreciate if you could go back to the messages that we have exchanged and answer some of my questions in regard of certain things that you said.

God bless us......

Dear brother Adisciple.

Thank you for your comments.

Please allow me to comment on it.

Quote:""""I wonder if you would be open to a suggestion. Can I encourage you to be before the Lord with an open heart, and reading 2 Cor. Chapters 3 and 4?""""

The one thing that gets me is the fact that people think that we sabbath keepers, we don't pray, and if we pray, we must be doing something wrong, because scriptures is not being opened to us the same way it does to them. Therefore, there must be something wrong with our prayers.

Dear brother just like many others, I put questions to everybody and I never seem to get any answers,

you did not comment on the question in regard the man gathering sticks.

++++If you were in his shoes How would you feel if you were condemned to death for something that is not even important to God?

Also you offered no comments when I asked you

+++++what other commandments do I have allowances as well, or is it just the Sabbath that I can do it my way? for you said that it doesn't matter the day as long as you do it any other day.

So please give me an answer so we can move on.

Quote: """"""For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward, how shall we escape if we negelct so great salvation..." (Heb. 2.2,3).

And also this:

"He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite to the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 11.29)."""""""

Now this one here dear brother takes the cake.

By me observing the sabbath, in accordance to the commandments just like His own followers did in the account of luke 23:56, You are saying that I am trampling underfoot the Son of God.
The very same God that declared Himself to be Lord of the SAbbath, Of course He is the Lord of the Sabbath, He is the Lord of it all.
How on earth, by my keeping the sabbath I am neglecting such a great salvation.

This is just umbelivable, How did you get to this conclusion I will never know.

=====

Quote:""""Thank you, Jesus, for Your Sabbath! Continue to lead me, dear Lord, and cause me to keep Sabbath with You all my days! Let Your Spirit of Grace rule in my life, causing me to turn MY foot from Your Sabbath, not doing MY pleasure on YOUR Holy Day... that I may call Your Sabbath a DELIGHT, the Holy of the LORD, Honourable, honouring YOU... not doing MY OWN ways, or finding MY OWN pleasures, nor speaking MY OWN WORDS... whether it be on Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday, or Wednesday, or Thursday, or Friday, or Saturday... but rather, TODAY if I will hear Your Voice, hardening not my heart..."""""

This is very beautiful dear brother, and it sound very poetic, but unfortunately for you, when Isaiah said that, the sabbath he was reffering to had nothing to do with the sabbath you are preaching.

It was the SAbbath of the Ten Commandments, it had a begining and and end, and it was the seventh share of time of the week, so it does not fit your description at all......

I just realised that brother Adisciple said he would not be posting here anymore, but I just thought fair to answer what he had written to me.

God bless you brother.

Dear brother Blazed by God,

Someone wrote this:Re: days of the week, all our days, in English, are named after pagan gods. Didn't you know that??? Saturday is the day of the god/planet Saturn!

So if those who keep Sunday as special are worshipping Mithras, you who keep Saturday are worshipping Saturn!""""""

You answered by taking us back to the beginning in Genesis, where God numbers the days.

Just to complement this, I thought it would be interesting to say to dear sister LittleGift that this argument of worshiping saturn has nothing to do with this, for we observe the sabbath. I come from a portuguese speaking country and we number the days just like God did in the week of creation.

I found this on the net and thought it would answer this question.

In Hebrew, the days of the week are simply numbered, except for the 7th, which is the Sabbath (Shabbat). In Arabic, the days of the week are also numbered, and the 7th day is still the Sabbath (asSabt), but the 6th day is now alJum'ah, the day of "gathering" (jum'), when Muslims pray at the mosque (jâmi'). In Modern Greek, the days are also numbered, and the 7th is still the Sabbath (Savvato), but the 1st day is now Kyriakê, the Lord's day. Interestingly, the 6th day in Greek is Paraskeuê, the "Preparation." This is actually the Jewish term, as preparation is made on the 6th day for the Sabbath -- preserved in a language today almost entirely of Christians, but formerly of many Jews in the Hellenistic and Roman periods.

While the Eastern Mediterranean languages reflect variations on a simple numbering of the days of the week, the languages of Western Europe all (except Portuguese) reflect names based on the names of the naked eye planets, which included the Sun and the Moon, either in a Latin version or a corresponding Germanic version. The 1st day in Latin is named after the Sun (Solis dies), but Christians also consider that the Lord's day (Dominicus dies), as in Greek. The 2nd day is named after the Moon (Lunae dies). The 3rd day is named after Mars (Martis dies). The 4th day is named after Mercury (Mercurii dies). The 5th day is named after Jupiter, or Jove (Jovis dies). The 6th day is named after Venus (Veneris dies). And the 7th day is named after Saturn (Saturni dies), though it can still be called the Sabbath (Sabbatum or Sabbati dies).

If anybody would like to read more about this, here is the weeb site.

http://www.friesian.com/week.htm

God bless you and all of us....

Dear brother Waltern,

You wrote to Blazed by God & Strider100:

I read your post and would like to comment on somethings that you said. Please allow me that..

Quote:"""""Of all the Ten Commandments, the only ond not repeated in the New Testament, the only one not germane to living under grace instead of law, was the fourth commandment--remember the Sabbath day, keep it holy, do no work, rest the seventh day.""""""

Dear brother Let me answer it by given you an illustration.

I live in England, and we drive on the left side, this is a well stablished law, we all know that, the goverment does not need to keep reminding us to the fact that when we get up in the morning and we go out driving our cars we should make sure that we drive on the left side.

Now, Let's say that there was a change in the law, the goverment passed a law that will change the driving side from the left to the right side on this particular day in June.

What do you think it would take to do this change?

Silence......?????????

The goverment would say that the best way of accomplishing this is by keeping the whole thing to themselves?

I think not. It would be broadcasted all over tv, newspapers, radio, internet, etc...

Just like Paul did with the issue of circumcision, quite a few books written by Paul in the NT talks about this very issue....

Something such as the SAbbath could not possibly be changed like this, for this very reason God punished Israel severelly because they would not obey it.

Read Ezekiel 20

Ezekiel 20:10-13 " Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 "And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, 'which, if a man does, he shall live by them.' 12 "Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them. 13 "Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, 'which, if a man does, he shall live by them'; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:15-17 "So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, 'flowing with milk and honey,' the glory of all lands, 16 "because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols. 17 "Nevertheless My eye spared them from destruction.

Ezekiel 20:19-20 'I am the LORD your God: Walk in My statutes, keep My judgments, and do them; 20 'hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.'

I believe that God is very serious about His sabbath.

I am sorry but your argument that because it was not reinstated in the new testament again means that it is not required is a flaw. Your theory does not hold water.

Yes, it was not mentioned because that is in the Ten commandments written by the very finger of God.

++++++

I would like you to ponder about this.

The sabbath was not mentioned but we know for a fact the the very followers of Christ, kept it just like the commandment said:

Luke 23:55 And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after,

Very clear to me brother, His followers.

Luke 23:55-56 and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Now they kept the sabbath Day, the followers of Christ, if it was not required anymore why would luke make it very clear to us that Jesus Disciples were sabbath keepers.

In mark

Mark 15:40-41 There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joses, and Salome, 41 who also followed Him and ministered to Him when He was in Galilee, and many other women who came up with Him to Jerusalem.

Here mark named quite a few women that were His followers, and this is his account...

Mark 16:1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.

Why would mark, write so clearly in his account.

After the Sabbath was past?

John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day).

We have here three accounts of the same thing and all of them made sure that we know that the sabbath day, yes a day, was to be observed.

=====

Another thing,

Peter's mother in law.

Luke 4:38-39 Now He arose from the synagogue and entered Simon's house. But Simon's wife's mother was sick with a high fever, and they made request of Him concerning her. 39 So He stood over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her. And immediately she arose and served them.

Now we know when Jesus used to go to the synagogues.

but look what Luke says:

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Same thing in Matthews.

Matthew 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,

In Mark.

Mark 1:32 At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.

Question:

Why in all accounts, we have people bringing Jesus the Sick to be healed after the sunset?
After the SAbbath was over, why is that???????

Now we know that Jesus Healed on the Sabbath, and it was for this reason that Jesus did not refuse to Heal on the sabbath.

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

======

Another thing I want you to have a look is this.

We know that the Pharisees and scribes were very zealous for the law of moses and the Sabbath, for they tried many times to catch Jesus breaking the law of the sabbath and had they succeded, they would have killed Jesus for that sin, just like the man gathering sticks on the sabbath. but despite of the fact that Jesus had called them hypocrites unccountable times, Wouldn't you say that this is a very strange commandment given by Jesus....

Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Jesus just told the multitudes to observe what the pharisees and scribes observes, but He warned them not to do like they do for they just say but do not do.

Wow, isn't this shocking?

Why would Jesus give such a commandment?

Now please, do not come back to me saying that I am preaching that we should follow the Pharisees hypocrisy. Jesus gave a commandments there and what I am trying to point out was their zeal for the law. and I believe that that was what Jesus meant, but if you think something different, I would love to know that.

++++

The other thing that I have got an answer is this....

We know that the earthly tabernacle was a copy of the heavenly one.

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

What is the ark of the covenant is doing there?
why was important for God to show John the ark in the heavenly tabernacle?
What is inside of the ark? The Nine Commandments?

Now, people say the Jesus is our sabbath and our sabbath is no longer a day.

Now the Ten commandments inside the ark of the covenant in Heaven,
What do you think it is written in the fourth commandment there?
the Sabbath as a day, or as a person?
because the one Here on earth we know for a fact that it was a day.

Please I would love any comments that you have about this....
=====

So, in conclusion dear brother, the fourth commandment as you have said was not mentioned and to me it is a irrefutable proof that it is a blessing still extended to us and it will always be.

It was not mentioned but it was confirmed many times through His own followers and Himself.

Now Jesus examples speaks louder to me that any man's reasoning....

God bless you

Hi Jayyou,

Jayyou, you said,

""Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -

Hebrews 8:8 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -

Sabbath given to israel only.
New covenant Israel and the house of judah."

Again the Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [/color][/b]

Whatever Law or Covenant or people they had formerly belonged to, they had to be [b]born again[/b] to enter the Kingdom of God, and [b]partake of the New Covenant[/b].

Once they were born again, were they any longer Jews? Israelites? Gentiles?

[b][color=000000]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.[/color][/b]

- Galatians 3:26-28(KJV)

Children of Israel? No. The Children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Who was the Sabbath given to?

[b][color=000000]Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [i]for[/i] a perpetual covenant. It [i]is[/i] a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for [i]in[/i] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.[/color][/b]

- Exodus 31:16-17(KJV)

[b][color=000000]...the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath[/color][/b]

The Children of God by faith in Christ Jesus? Or the Children of Israel?

Which?

Where did Moses recieve this commandment? And what did he carry in his arms down from the mountain?

[b][color=000000]And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. [/color][/b]

- Exodus 31:18(KJV)

Which were broken, and he recieved them the second time and what does Paul the Apostle of Jesus Christ, say concerning this

[b][color=000000]But if the ministration of death, written [i]and[/i] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [i]glory[/i] was to be done away: [/color][/b]

- 2 Corinthians 3:7(KJV)

What does he say works death?

[i]...the letter killeth[/i] v6

What does he say gives life?

[i]...the spirit giveth life[/i]

What did they, the Apostles, minister in the New Covenant, the letter, or the Spirit?

[b][color=000000]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. [/color][/b]

- 2 Corinthians 3:6(KJV)

[b][color=000000]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 5:18(KJV)

So, I asked you where did King Jesus command His subjects to keep the 7th Day Sabbath as it was written in the law of Moses and you qouted Matthew 23:2-3. But Jayyou, these are the same ones of whom He goes on to say

[b][color=660000]Woe unto you, [i]ye[/i] blind guides, which say...[/color][/b]

Do what they say?

Is that what He meant?

Jayyou, I asked where the Lord Jesus, the King of the Kingdom, commanded His subjects to keep the 7th day sabbath as it was written in the Law of Moses. Not [b]what they did[/b] while they were still under the Law of Moses, before He had died and rose again, or any of them had been born again. Does that make sense?

Take care for now,

Chris

Jayyou,

You said

"My problem is when it comes to the promises and blessings, no Jew no greek.

but when it comes to the commandments, then it is only for them,

You still have not showed me where in the bible is found the explaination for your theory of exclusion."

[b][color=000000]Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [/color][/b]

[i]And to thy seed, which is Christ[/i]

Which is, the children of Israel? No. Which is Christ.

[b][color=000000]As for me, this [i]is[/i] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [i]is[/i] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and forever. [/color][/b]

- Isaiah 59:21(KJV)

Once they were born again, were they any longer Jews? Israelites? Gentiles?

YES,The apostle says, after being born-again
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. [b]For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin[/b]

You used Gal 3:26-28 to say that there neither Jew nor Greek in Christ after one has been born again-but it doesn't actally mean that-as to say the same verse also "...neither male nor female.."

And I can tell you, before I was born-again I was a male, and now that I have been born again I am still a male-it is making reference to being "IN" Christ, but that doesn't take away the fact that I am a male in the flesh-else how would I know to marry a female IN CHRIST

Who was the Sabbath given to?

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, [b]nor thy stranger that is within thy gates[/b]:

The answer would be, the Children of Israel, but ALSO the stranger that was within thy gates (which I might add Gentiles are the strangers that have now been graffted IN)

And actually I would add, the practice of the Sabbath was in order before it was GIVEN to them in the 10 Commandments or the Law of Moses.

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

This is Exodus the 16 Chapter, the 10 Commendments are NOT given until Exodus 20-how and why did they obey and know about the Sabbath before it was ever given to them in the law-because of it's origin at creation.

But I would ask, how LONG was the Sabbath given to the Children of Israel and the stranger?

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a [b]perpetual covenant.[/b]

Perpetual means without end, keeping in mind that Jews were the FIRST Christians.

2 Corinthians 3:7(KJV) What does he say works death

Death is not always used in a bad sense, especially in the context of:

Roms 5:11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God BY [b]the death of his Son[/b], much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Does not death always come before life? (In the spiritual sense) So if there is not that which worketh death, there cannot be that which will make alive or tendeth to life?

...the letter killeth v6

The letter is the Law of Moses, not the 10 Commandments. (Moses wrote the law of Moses in a book, 10 Commandments on Stone.)

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

True, if you are lead of the Spirit...you are not under the law [b]of Moses.[/b] (it is talking about the law of Moses not the 10 Commandments)

Did Jesus Keep the Sabbath because of the Law or because of the Spirit?

Luke 4:1 1 [b]And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost[/b] returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.....14 [b]And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit[/b] into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, [b]as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read[/b].

Jesus is full of the Spirit, he is in the power of the Spirit, yet He full of the Spirit still keeps the Sabbath.. "as HIS custom was"

Why didn't the Spirit becon Jesus that he didn't have to observe the Sabbath if that was the case?

Later on, we see Paul, after the resurrection-patterning his life after the Lord and Savior:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Is not this the same thing Jesus did in Luke 4:16?

People always say that the Sabbath is the only Commandment not mentioned in the New Testament...well, actually that is not true, If I am right, where is the 3rd Commandment reiterated in the New Testament?

Exodus 20:7 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain

Truthfully, all the Commandments are stated in the New Testament:

Matt 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, [b]Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law[/b] and the prophets.

This two commandments of which hang all the law-contain all of the 10 Commandments. Verse 37 pertains to the first 5 of the 10 Commandments which pertain to one's relationship with God ONLY, verse 39 pertains to the last 5 of the 10 Commandments which pertain to one's relationship with mankind.

James 2:10 [b]For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of [size=medium]ALL[/size].[/b] 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art [b]become a transgressor of the law[/b]. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty

He is guiltly of "ALL" what-ALL 10 Commandments if he breaks even but 1. (this would even include the Sabbath)

James presently listed two of the 10 Commandments, there is no need to believe that he would even list the 2, if all 10 were not in effect.

People say that Jesus is our Sabbath, and that it is not a "DAY" anymore?

There are two ways to answer that:

First, Martin Luther King Jr day is Jan 15,we honor the person of Martin L. King Jr, by OBSERVING a "set aside" DAY for him- "we even get the DAY OFF OF WORK (get the picture)". Thus honoring/observing the day, is honoring the person. ( I hope you get it)

Second, even Jesus himself, calls the Sabbath, " a DAY":
Matt 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath [b]DAY.[/b]

Also, why does the Word mention the sabbath in this next verse, which was AFTER the resurrection AND Ascension of Jesus"

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a [b]sabbath DAY's journey[/b].

If the sabbath day is void, why does it mention the fact that was a "sabbath day's journey away"

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the [b]sabbath day,[/b] and sat down

Even the Word itself, is still calling the Sabbath, " a DAY"-and this is after the ascension of Christ.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, [b]the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next SABBATH.[/b] 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 [b]And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.[/b]

What did the Gentiles want to hear the NEXT SABBATH DAY-the Word of God from the mouth of Paul-but these were who-GENTILES!!

Not only was that specific day the Sabbath, but they enquired about the NEXT SABBATH.

Hi BlazedbyGod,

BlazedbyGod,

You said,

"YES,The apostle says, after being born-again
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin"

But what is the point of this, to establish that the New Covenant is according to natural birth after all????

No, but to say,

"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."

You also said,

"I am a male in the flesh-"

[b][color=000000]Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [i]him[/i] no more. Therefore if any man [i]be[/i] in Christ, [i]he is[/i] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [/color][/b]

- 2 Corinthians 5:16-17(KJV)

Man or woman, they are New. Jew or Gentile, they are New.

That which is born of the flesh, is flesh.

You also said,

"...but that doesn't take away the fact that I am a male in the flesh-else how would I know to marry a female IN CHRIST"

According to Paul, it does matter as to whether or not you are alive or dead unto the Law,

[b][color=000000]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [i]even[/i] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [/color][/b]

- Romans 7:4(KJV)

Also, about this...

"Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

The answer would be, the Children of Israel, but ALSO the stranger that was within thy gates (which I might add Gentiles are the strangers that have now been graffted IN)"

Natural gentiles grafted into Natual Israelites are still natural men.

But whose gates do those who enter the Kingdom come unto to?

[b][color=000000] But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [/color][/b]

- Hebrews 12:22(KJV)

Does those who come to such a city live under the dominion of the Moon and the Sun?

But what about the Jerusalem that was below...

[b][color=000000]For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 4:25(KJV)

BlazedbyGod, you also said,

"Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

This is Exodus the 16 Chapter, the 10 Commendments are NOT given until Exodus 20-how and why did they obey and know about the Sabbath before it was ever given to them in the law-because of it's origin at creation."

Because... "This is that which the LORD hath said..."?

Because the LORD had said?

Also...

"But I would ask, how LONG was the Sabbath given to the Children of Israel and the stranger?

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Perpetual means without end, keeping in mind that Jews were the FIRST Christians."

As long as they would live?

[b][color=000000]Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? [/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [i]even[/i] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [/color][/b]

- Romans 7:1,4(KJV)

Dead, buried, and raised again. Born again.

BlazedbyGod, you said,

"The letter is the Law of Moses, not the 10 Commandments. (Moses wrote the law of Moses in a book, 10 Commandments on Stone.)"

[b][color=000000]And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. [/color][/b]

- Exodus 34:27-28(KJV)

[i]...for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. [/i]

BlazedbyGod, you also asked,

"Did Jesus Keep the Sabbath because of the Law or because of the Spirit?"

Does Christs' body now live under the law of Moses on Earth while it's Head is in Heaven?

Also,

"Later on, we see Paul, after the resurrection-patterning his life after the Lord and Savior:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,"

It says he reasoned with them, not rested with them.

In the other verses that you qouted I did not see where the Apostles [b]kept[/b] the 7th Day sabbath as it was given in the Law of Moses or where [b]they commanded[/b] the gentiles to keep it.

Take care for now,

Chris

Chris,
Very good word.

Jayyou,

Yes I said that I was done posting on this thread, but I will respond to your post. (I had not seen you here for a while, so thought maybe you yourself had abandoned your "post." :-)

As to your comment that I had not answered your questions, I think if you will read my earlier post more carefully, you will see that I answered (or tried to).

And I am still feeling not much inclined to continue here, because I see that you and Strider (and Blazed now) consider yourself Sabbath keepers because you keep Saturday Sabbath, and we others, in your estimation we are Sabbath breakers because we do not keep Saturday Sabbath. And you seem very entrenched in your position, so I wonder what's the point continuing.

But...

jayyou wrote:

It was the SAbbath of the Ten Commandments, it had a begining and and end, and it was the seventh share of time of the week, so it does not fit your description at all......

Jayyou, this is what you wrote concerning my use of the prophecy of Isaiah 58. 13,14). You insist that it is just for the seventh day of the week.

You mean God considers it okay, then, for us to go our own way, do our own thing, seek our own pleasure, speak our own words, etc. the other six days of the week? We just have to do for one day, the seventh day, what He has commanded here in these two verses, and then we are free after that to do our own thing?

I can enjoy His Rest only for one day? Then I have to get back into the harness of bondage to myself for the other six days? That is not satisfying to me. I want to abide in that Rest all the time.

Jayyou, I do not consider myself to be a Sabbath breaker.

I mentioned to you earlier (or was it to Strider, I forget now) ...that the Lord Jesus Christ and I worked many Saturdays together; He joined me (in the Spirit) on my job as I worked, and we had many times of precious fellowship together. Saturdays. Sundays. We kept Sabbath together as I worked. He didn't reprove me for working on Saturdays. In fact He joined me on the job.

And yet I think you (and Strider) would probably like to tell me that I was breaking Sabbath by working on Saturday.

I tell you, those were some of the most precious days I've ever had. And if I broke Sabbath, the Lord Jesus broke it with me. (Well, He's been there before.)

So I say to you again (or try to say) ...The New Covenant order is a far higher order than the Old Covenant. The Sabbath is a higher Sabbath. ALL the commandments... they are not done away in Christ, they are FULFILLED, and shall be in us, as we abide in Him. And so in that sense, the Christian is no longer under the Law of Moses; he is UNDER GRACE (that is to say, TRUE Righteousness) which is a Law far higher and more beautiful than the shadows of the Law of Moses (Rom. 6.14).

I tell you, it is my constant longing to come more and more under the Rule of Grace, the Law of Grace, till I'm totally "chained" to Righteousness as once I was to sin, as the old song goes. "Let that grace Lord, like a fetter, bind my wandering heart to Thee."

Like the golden chains in Solomon's oracle.... What was that speaking of, but the chains of Grace that KEEP us in Righteousness... keep us in Rest... all our days, not just one out of seven.

And if you don't see this, I don't know what further to say. If keeping Saturday Sabbath satisfies you... just one day out of seven... brother, I'm sorry. I feel sorry for you. I'm not trying to be condescending, far from it. I just wish you could see where you are at. My heart is going out to you. Please don't sell yourself short of the grace of God, which our Lord Jesus Christ, in His "more excellent ministry," is imparting to His own.

...How we ALL need that "eyesalve" to anoint our eyes that we might SEE. Oh, what wonders our Lord has for us! If we would just acknowledge our blindness! But as long as we insist we see... what a pitiable condition we are in.

AD

HE_Reigns wrote:

"Types and Shadows" may be difficult for some to see.

I believe because of all of this - with the "abiding"-In --- that every day is Sabbath and we are keeping "it" only as we are truthfully abiding in This Vine.
"............. in Spirit & Truth".

Also much appreciated reading your post, Annie. Thanks for this.

AD

Strider100 wrote:

ADisciple said: "[i]And if I broke Sabbath, the Lord Jesus broke it with me. (Well, He's been there before)"[/i]

ADisciple----that would not be the Jesus of the Scriptures, but another Jesus - Had the Lord Jesus actually broken the Sabbath commandment, He would have been sinning. But the Scripture says that He "committed no sin" (1 Peter 2:22).

Strider,

You are correct. Jesus did no sin. And He never broke the Sabbath. And when I worked on Saturdays, I was not breaking the Sabbath, and neither was Jesus, who led me to work on that job, and was with me as I worked.

I simply meant (in the above quote) that if I was to be accused of breaking the Sabbath by working on Saturdays, my accusers would have to accuse the Son of God for breaking the Sabbath as well, for He was with me as I worked. But in fact, far from breaking the Sabbath by working on Saturdays (or Sundays), we were keeping True Sabbath together.

...And if you are implying that it was "another Jesus" who was with me, I would ask you to be very careful that you do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

AD

Walter,

What does this in Christ position you have stated have to do with Christ being the Sabbath, or keeping the seventh day Sabbath.

Why is the Sabbath changed from the law to Jesus Christ being the Sabbath and How?

I agree Christ is our life, and that is a new life and that I died to sin on the Cross with Christ and He is the One that is now my Life.
How do we bridge the seventh day Sabbath and Christ being that Sabbath?

How did Christ get in me?

In Christ: Phillip

How do we bridge the seventh day Sabbath and Christ being that Sabbath?

The Sabbath Rest is an important motif for me. It is the way God drew me to himself, or rather - into his rest – which is authentic salvation.

Christ said.. ‘I will give you rest….”

What did Christ offer us?
He offered a release from the work we do to keep our guilt at bay. Our relentless efforts weary us, and wear us out because there is no way we ever can stop. Our guilt remains. In our attempt to be good Christians and win God’s approval, our consciences accumulate layers and layers of ‘should’s’ and ‘autht-to’s - and eventually we find ourselves carrying a heavy load on our conscience. We are not aware of it until crises happens causing us to be unable to carry the load – that is, keep up with all the demands of our conscience.

I could not see that I was living in the first six days work as long I had enough strength and ability to work – spiritually speaking. I needed to experience the sheer nakedness of myself, the wretchedness, and the absolute inability to absolve myself of guilt. It is a dreadful experience, but it caused me to finally cry out to God. He did answer me, but he did not use the typical motifs we use for salvation. God used the “rest” motif – especially through the book of Hebrews. This was no one-day procedure! The transformation, or rather the wilderness journey into his rest took many years.

The way we honor the Sabbath day is by abandoning our reliance on all our own efforts to absolve ourselves from our guilt – all our good works, our denials, our defences, our human reliances. I say that hesitatingly. We cannot simply instruct someone to do that, as if it is a one-step decision. It is God who calls us into his rest, and he does it through the process of life’s circumstances, and other factors leading to conscience awareness of about ourselves and our neediness. A motif for that idea could be this: Christ makes the blind see.

Romans 14 warns us not to put loads on people's consciences, and thus cause them to stumble by reverting to the six days work. That is a violation of the fourth commandment.

"It is finished" Creation is complete, and so is Christ's redemption. We are required to live in the Sabbath Rest. We don't need to top it up with a few rules. We need to walk by the law of the Spirit, instead.

Diane

Today I stumbled across this forum which has been discussing the issue of the Saturday Sabbath and its relevance or indeed its irrelevance.

It was impossible to go through all of the comments made, so I will attempt make my comments brief.

First of all, I believe that we are all on a journey which requires humility and patience. We must also understand that Bible was not written to support a denomination or a theory or personal issues. It was written to reveal to us the nature and purposes of our heavenly Father.It is a manual on Holy, victorious living (and indeed a manual on how to achieve and sustain this).

In essence the Bible is Jewish from start to finish. Therefore, it is important to begin by looking at the Bible from a Jewish perspective. After all, the words written were given to a Jewish nation (i.e first 5 books of the Bible - "Torah"). The prophecies of the Old Testament were originally to the Jewish people and finally, the New Testament was an account of a Gospel that began with the Jewish people first.

The Sabbath, was given to them with nine other commandments [color=0000CC](which I refer to as a summary of the books of Moses[/color]] The Sabbath ( as we all agree) existed prior to the formation of the nation of Israel as was the issue of murder, theft etc.

This day (Sabbath) was set apart from creation and at no time did the Bible say that the Sabbath was abolished along withe rest of the Law (correctly translated Torah). If this were the case, why would [color=0000CC]Jewish[/color] Messiah (From the tribe of Judah, which is where we get the term 'Jew') teach from Torah (Matthew 5:21, 27) and then proceed to abolish his own teachings.

[color=0000CC]Also, if the Torah given to Moses has been abolished, why teach about murder, adultery, love etc [/color]

In conclusion. Saturday Sabbath was always a part of the Jewish community (even today). But due to the attempt by Constantine and others to move the Church away from its Hebraic roots we have been left confused over issues that were never confusing to the early Church. Where there was confusion, it usually came out of peoples attempts to interpret what actually needed no interpretation at all.

Please pray about this.

I agree with your illustration of the degree as neither qualification as been altered in any way, nor has an interpretation of the qualification been applied. They are what they are, qualifications.

To help, look at the bible definition of Fulfil taken from the Greek.

[color=0000CC]To fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment.[/color]

is not dealing with the application of the Torah (Law) but its results itself but the results of. See my previous note on the teachings of the Messiah. It is clear that there was to remain a literal application of Torah but he brought in a way of correctly observing it and also removed the results of disobeying and finding ourselves in the place of sin.

In the Torah death was the penalty of sin after the Messiah forgiveness was ushered in.

[b]Please note the description in 11Corinthians 3: 7[/b]ministry of death"

[b][color=0000CC]The result of sin in the Torah was to follow the system of atoning for sin via a sacrifice or to administer death to the guilty party.[/color][/b]

This only was finished i.e accomplished, complete, ended

valton wrote:
It was impossible to go through all of the comments made,

Hi, Valton.

I encourage you to take the time to go through this thread and read all the comments, although I know it is a long thread.

But if you don't you will find yourself just repeating things that have already been covered, and it's possible others will not want to just "rehash" things.

Diane and Jeannette, I much enjoyed your recent posts here, and was encouraged with the direction I felt this thread was going.

All of us (well, myself for sure) need whatever encouragement and insight we can offer one another to help us to enter more fully into the Sabbath of the Lord.

I notice in Hebrews it says, "Let us labour to enter into that Rest." But this is not a contradiction. The word "labour" I think actually means, "Let us give diligence..."

I appreciated, Jeannette, your mentioning those two yokes together: the one, the yoke of bondage, and the other, the yoke of Christ.

"Come unto me all ye that labour, and are heavy laden, and I will give you Rest. Take MY YOKE upon you..."

Sometimes I find myself praying, Lord, I'm willing; PUT IT upon me..."

AD

Jeanette, you for your honesty and for your additional thoughts. The definition is also more complete.

This is a lengthy subject so I attempted to answer the points raised as briefly as possible.

I didn't mean to imply that we should literally observe everything else that I had not listed. As you correctly mention Acts chapter 15 the Pharisees were demanding the circumcision of the born again gentiles. These were people who were coming into a faith that was very clear to the born again Jewish community. This is one of many texts that address the issues that Apostles were able to shed light on with regards to the Gentiles. It is important to look at each issue in its context.

Also,the death and crucifixion of the Messiah did accomplish more than provide forgiveness of sin but once again, by trying to share my thoughts in brief I was not able to clarify this in detail.
Basically, he restored a broken covenant between God and his people Israel. He opened up a way for the nations to come into the commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:11- 13). He has succeeded in making 'one new man' amongst many other victories.

Thinking about the forgiveness by sacrificing animals...Think of the impications of all the worlds current believers having to provide an animal for their sins. Think of the number of priests it would take to administer the sacrifice correctly. More importantly, think of all the brokeness that we would have to live with because the animals could not deal with the issues of the inner man. A sacrificial lamb was needed whose blood would be shed once and for all. This lamb came from heaven.

Bless you.

Dear brother Walter,

Thank you ever so much for you answer.

I apologize for not being able to reply to your messages to me before. I had a little accident and have had little time to use the computer.

Please dear brother Walter, allow me to comment on your last message.

When I gave you the texts:

Luke 23:55-56
You answered.

""""Jesus had not yet been glorified, and had not yet "fulfilled the Law and the Prophets". """""

Luke 4:38 - you answered

"""Jesus had not been glorified, and had not yet "fulfilled the Law and the Prophets". """"

Ok, Let's go down this road brother.

Quote:"""""I could refer to all of your other references, but they all have the same flaw."""""

You are saying that prior to His resurrection they were still under the law, but after everything changed.

please explain to me then why would Jesus say this....

Matthew 24:19-24 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

I have a few questions for you.

Matthew 24, The time Jesus is referring here, was before or after His glorification?

Matthew 24, Why would Jesus ask His followers to pray so their flight would not happen on the sabbath or winter?

Would you agree that verses 21 and 22 is refering to the end of times?

Matthew 24:21-22 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

if not please explain, but if you agree, then.

does verse 21 also applies to verse 23-24? if not, please explaing.....

+++++

You used the argument that Jesus had not yet being glorified to say that His followers kept the sabbath according to the commandment.

Now, In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking about two Major profecies, The invasion of Jerusalem but also He is talking about the end of the times(verse 23-24). I would like to hear your explanation as to why did Jesus told us to pray so our flight would not happen during the winter or the sabbath?

God bless you..

SABB ATH

Pronounced as (SAB buhth). Meaning ceasing. God established the Sabbath by ceasing the work of creation..

It is the Spirit of God that works in Us both to will and to do – SABBATH, the day of Rest, the day when we come in one accord and in unity along with other saints under a covering, yes I must touch on this “under a covering”.

Too often we find people having church or playing church with other believers, and they are not under a covering, that my friend should not be -- God can not nor will he bless or continue to bless anything that is done out of order, for God is a God of order and there is a protocal, if you will.

Not only did God establish the Sabbath, being the last day in which he rested (Saturday) and the first of day of the week being (Sunday), it was also a day of healing.

And if you look closely who did the Healing, it was Jesus the Messiah, the Anointed one The Christ, Christos the one that would bare all of our iniquies upon his own body, yet during the Sabbath, it was only to appear as a Type of Shadow, of what was to come, upon the mountain of Galgotha, meaning the Skull where Jesus would be crucified for our iniquities and for our transgressions.

You can NOT nor should you continue to look at the SABBATH, as such...it was a day where you would cease from working to worship HIM, along with other saints, it was day of transparency or it is a day of transparency where you can boldly enter in and say Here I Am Lord, there is nothing that i can hide from you, you see me as i am, with all of my imperfections, with all of my inadequecies, with all of my sins yes Lord, because i am a sinner and I don't know where i would be right now, if it wasn't because you chose to pull me out of a pit, i don't know where i would be if it wasn't because of your cleasing blood, i don't know where i would be if it wasn't because your word washes my conscience of any quilt.

And you stand in his PRESENCES, and declare here i am Lord, here i am (pause) If you could use anything Lord, you can use me (pause)and you extend your hands to him (Y)yes Lord (Y) Lord here i am,

Dear brother ChrisJD,

Thank you again for your reply.

I have read your last messages to me and I must confess that I still do not see what you are trying to show me. I have asked you the same question and if you go back to your answers you will see that you have tried to answer it in various different ways and so far you have yet to give a satisfactory answer to the question.

so I have decided to approach it from a different angle.

I will be writing short messages to you, with one or two question the most, maybe that way we can get somewhere.

My question to you is.

God gave the sabbath to the Jew as a perpetual covenant.

If you are a jew, and you are a believer in Christ.

do you still have to keep the sabbath or not?

Hi Jayyou,

"My question to you is.

God gave the sabbath to the Jew as a perpetual covenant.

If you are a jew, and you are a believer in Christ.

do you still have to keep the sabbath or not?"

Maybe we could ask the question in a different way?

If a man was born a Jew, or a Gentile, and he passaed from death unto life, is he still alive unto the Law?

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [i]her[/i] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [i]her[/i] husband. So then if, while [i]her[/i] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [i]even[/i] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

-Romans 7:1-6(KJV)

[i]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ[/i]

Chris

Dear brother ChrisJD.

thank you for your reply.

dear brother, yet again you evaded the question.

The question is,

A Jew that became a believer, does He have to keep the Sabbath?

Let me remind you of the text.

Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

To make it a little bit more interesting, let me quote you a verse where ""perpetual"" was used and let see if it can be changed.

Genesis 9:12-13 And God said: "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 "I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.

Please could you answer again my question.

A Jew that became a believer does He need to keep the sabbath?

God bless.....

Dear brother Waltern,

Thank you for your message, please allow me to comment on it.

I quoted you Matthew 24, because you said that the other texts that proves Jesus disciples kept the sabbath was due to the fact that Jesus had not yet being glorified, and yet nowhere in the bible we have Jesus saying anything about after my death you are free from keeping the sabbath, or free from the ten commandments, or anything of the sort.

then I asked you about Matthew 24, and this was your answer.

quote: """"Jesus was referring to His second coming, after the Great Tribulation, when He comes back to the earth, to rule and reign with a rod of iron for 1,000 years.""""

Dear brother nobody is disputing this. I am very aware to the fact that in Matthew 24 Jesus was not only talking about the invasion of Jerusalem but He was also telling us about the end of the time.

question.

Do you believe that Jesus is about to return?

Do you believe that He is very close indeed of His second coming?
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You answered right in saying that He was talking about the End of Times, but then you made a shoking statement.

Quote:"""What he describes here is non-believers and Jews, who will enter the Great Tribulation that God has prepared for a Christ rejecting world. The non-believing Jews are the ones that will still be concerned about the Sabbath:"""

Dear brother, where did you get this from?

I have to confess that I had heard quite a few different explanations of Matthew 24 but this one is new to me.

Now it is very clear to me that He was talking about the end of the times.

Matthew 24:3 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Now to whom is he telling all of this...

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives "you."

Question:at the end of the verse, who is Jesus refering when He said "You"? Jews and Non-believers? or you and me?

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Matthew 24:6 "And "you" will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that "you" are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Again, who is Jesus refering when He again said You?

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Matthew 24:9 "Then they will deliver "you" up to tribulation and kill you, and "you" will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

again brother, Who will be killed and Hated by all nations? Jews and Non believers? or you and me?
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Matthew 24:13-14 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Very clear Here brother that the ones that will be saved will be the ones that will endure to the end.

So, it tells me without a shadow of a doubt that there will be saints Here that will endure it all the way to the end.

Matthew 24:19-20 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Here comes the big blow, Jesus mentioned:

preganant women, and those nursing babies and He enfatically told us to pray so our flight does not happen in winter or on the sabbath.

Now, so far for the whole chapter Jesus is warning the believers of the things that will happen in the end of times, so we are prepared for them, but then all of a sudden Jesus is talking about Jews and non believers? ASking them to pray so their flight doesn't happen on winter or sabbath?

If we are non belivers, why would we hear Jesus words anyway? it just doesn't make sense....

It doesn't make sense, the whole chapter of Matthew 24 is a warning to those who are believers.

why would Jesus command Jews and non believers to pray so their flight doesn't happen on the winter nor the Sabbath?

QUESTIONS
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Matthew 24:22 but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.