Sorry to rehash

This is reliy bothering me, if we would only get rid of these rediculous theories(theology/doctrines) we could see God as we should and the atheists would be able to reconcile the God of the Bible with what THEY think a good God would do.

This is not a "fairness" issue, but a justice issue.

No one has yet explained these injustices that some men put to God by their theology/doctrines.
Please explain each point.

[b]1:[/b] Some people make the Atonement to be only for a chosen few(the Elect) where God is not ALL Loving and very finite in grace. In contrast which the Atonement is for all and is ALL Loving and infinite in grace.

[b]2:[/b] Please explain that God would Create men that are the non-chosen, non-elect. These must be hated creations, for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell. Therefore, man is doing that which he was created to do, that is to sin & yet, being condemd for it.
The non-elect have no grace to be saved because the Atonement is not for them.
They were never suposed to be saved in the first place, which makes them created only to be distroyed in hell.
Therefore, they are not in hell for what they have done, but in hell for that wich they were created for.

[b]3:[/b] Please explain that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.
Man is condemned for that wich is unavoidable.

[b]4:[/b] Please explain that one must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ. This theology makes God wrathful and hating man because He Himself would not let them obey by not regenerating them.
Man is guilty for what God will not do.

This puts the blame on God for not giving them the ability to obey the command to repent and to put his faith in/on Christ.

[b]5:[/b] Please explain why God would condemn man from the result of His own doing.
This is God making man candemned before the crime of sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam".
By this, God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".

[b]6:[/b] Please explain why God would make a world with sin when HE could have made one that didn't.
This means that He chose the world that has sin over the one that didn't. This, in turn, means that He wanted sin to exist, & yet condemns for that which HE wills.

When the truth is that God could not have made a world woith out sin and not infringe on free will.
(He couldn't have made a world with no sin by making a world with no laws, God is not lawless)

[b]7:[/b] Please explain how God wanted Adam to sin.
Some say this as true.

[b]8:[/b] Please explain how those who are pre-selected to hell in contraposition to the Elect, can not ever repent because God refuses to give them the ability(regeneration) and condemns for it.
(Man is guilty for what God pre-ordains to be.)

I never did get a point by point explaination, if there is any.

Brother you have been lead by the hand through Scripture by myself and others.

Here is the explanation if you "choose" to accept it-
It is because God has decided it to be so, and He works ALL things according to His will.

There it is, and I am not going to go through this again, perhaps someone else can take up the challenge, but I have been through this with you already.

The whole of creation should have been cast into Hell in the time of Noah. Only by God's mercy is there even one person left. He chose 8 souls and repented of He wrath which we all deserve.

Why is it so hard to see that God must be God and man cannot?

Romans 9:14-26 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Then He Killed His Own Son just to be able to save you, for you cannot save yourself. You cannot put God in your little box. I guarantee He will get out. I had Him in my box for a long time, until He took my world and turned it upside down and shredded the box.

WE will never get out of His box though.

In Christ: Phillip

in a nutshell, God is soverign.
Satan didnt like it, so he tried to do something about it and was cast out.
If God chooses you, for Christ, from the beginning, you have a choice to repent and be saved. Or reject him and be cast into outer darkness.
When we use logic to figure out HIS ways we will loose every time.

If you have been chosen, and you repent and Get the good graces from God to realize you are a sinner and need a saviour, he will save you.
If not, well then you wont be saved.
As a vessel of his mercy, be grateful for his mercy and Love him and adore him.
When we become humanists we miss what God is all about, its not about us it's about what gives God his good pleasure.

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother you have been lead by the hand through Scripture by myself and others.

Here is the explanation if you "choose" to accept it-
It is because God has decided it to be so, and He works ALL things according to His will.

Do you not see any atrocities in these points that I put forth?

This is reliy bothering me, if we would only get rid of these rediculous theories(theology/doctrines) we could see God as we should and the atheists would be able to reconcile the God of the Bible with what THEY think a good God would do.

Is God going to become a God that other people think they need for them to believe in?
Wouldnt that be making a God of thier own design?
Isnt this called Idolatry?
Paganism?
Fornication?
Millions upon Millions of people are going to Hell because they follow a God that does not exist, or they follow God by name only , but not in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
Churches are Full of Humanism,
God is not a humanist. He is Soverign, and Chooses who he chooses, reject who he rejects,
If you hear his call dont harden your heart against the spirit, or you will be rejected and he will harden your heart, and when that happens there will be no more room for repentance.

Christinyou wrote:
The whole of creation should have been cast into Hell in the time of Noah.

Why is it so hard to see that God must be God and man cannot?

Your quote of Romans 9 does not mean the same to me as it does to you, therefore do not yous [b]only sriture[/b] to make your point. Pleas put in your own words that your trying to say from that Scripture.
I do not see any injustices in Romans 9.

It does not say, "God is God and you are not, so you have no right to demand these answers from God."(Rom 9:19-21)

You cannot put God in your little box.

I am suprised that no one sees the atrocities which some theologies/doctrines conclude to.

Hi Logic, I hope you are well.

Logic, I saw this,

"That is only because God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".

I'm not sure this is the case myself. Maybe this is something we could look at?

Chris

poet wrote:
in a nutshell, God is soverign.

If you have been [b]chosen[/b], and you repent and Get the good graces from God to realize you are a sinner and need a saviour, he will save you.

As a vessel of his mercy, be grateful for his mercy and Love him and adore him.

When we become humanists we miss what God is all about, its not about us [b]it's about what gives God his good pleasure.[/b]

God does not condemn by HIS good pleasure, why would HE take plesure in creating a sentient being for the sole purpose of being condemed(creating the non-elect, according to your interp, theology/doctrine)?

poet wrote:

This is reliy bothering me, if we would only get rid of these rediculous theories(theology/doctrines) we could see God as we should and the atheists would be able to reconcile the God of the Bible with what THEY think a good God would do.

Is God going to become a God that other people think they need for them to believe in?

please refraize.

Wouldnt that be making a God of thier own design?
Isnt this called Idolatry?
Paganism?
Fornication?

God is not a humanist. He is Soverign, and Chooses who he chooses, reject who he rejects,

That is totaly contraty to why people are condemd.
It would not be my fault for being in hell if God rejected me.
It would be my fault for being in hell if I rejected HIM.
In other words, God does not reject man for salvation.
However, in choosing the jews, God rejected the rest of humaniy for the purpose of liniage of HIS Seed.

If you hear his call dont harden your heart against the spirit, or you will be rejected and he will harden your heart, and when that happens there will be no more room for repentance.

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic, I hope you are well.

Logic, I saw this,

"That is only because God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".

I'm not sure this is the case myself. Maybe this is something we could look at?

Also other things that lead to the conclusions which bad theology/doctrines come to that I brought up in my first post.

Sorry for not replying, but I see that you do not agree to the interp of some of Scripturs that would lead to these conclusions that I made in my first post.

I see that you agrre to reality that the Atonement is for all mankind and that GOD [b]is[/b] all loving and infinite in grace.

You must have a diferent understanding of election that does not make God creating some for the sole purpose of being desroyed in hell as others do.

I like what you said here:

The whole idea of man choosing whether to accept or reject God and so, ultimately, go to hell and pay for their sins in eternal separation from God, does not put God out of complete control. He doesn't choose who goes to hell and who goes to heaven, that is man's decision. But God is all-knowing, and He knows who is going to choose Him and who isn't.
God does not create people specifically for the purpose of going to hell.

You must agree that the "Federal Headship of Adam" is a bogus doctrine that puts the guilt on God for mankind being sinners.
If it would be true, HE Himself must have instituted the "Federal Headship of Adam", it must be HIS responsibility for the rest of mankind being sinners(He is liable, legally responsible for mankind being sinners).

Hi again everyone.

I want to clarify something of my last reply here.

When I said

"I'm not sure this is the case myself"

it was in response to this...

"That is only because God made the very nature of man to be sin..."

I realise there is more to the qoute and I should have been clearer as to what I was responding to.

I don't think I will be participating in this thread as it is now.

Thanks.

Some here have tried to show and explain to you the relevant Scriptures supporting the sovereignty of God.

But it has not helped.

My point in posting what I did was simply to point out that the problem is not that none have shown logic how and why from Scripture. The problem as it was with me for awhile is that the flesh does not like it, and thus decides God must be fair to all, or He is not God.

As I have brought up before, was God unfair when He drowned the Egyptians in the Red Sea?

Did He go against their wills? After all, they wanted to destroy Israel, and I am pretty sure they wanted to go on living too.

Yet, God is completely fair in drowning them as they had sinned against Him, as have all men.

And again Brother logic, you still have no answer as to why God creates anyone who would not "choose" Him.

So you must either carry out your argument of fairness to its logical end and say that in order for God to be "fair", He will save all men everywhere that have ever existed. Ultimately, I suppose God would have to save Satan as well so that God cannot be labeled as unfair.

Ahh, but you will say that Satan rebelled against God and is rightly damned because of his rebellion. Yet man gets off free for the same thing?

Again, it seems you do not like the truth of God being Sovereign. But you would like to have an open theistic view, where God must respond to mans' decisions, and does not know all things, and is not bringing all things to His expected end.

Sorry sister, I did not mean all of that for you. I did not divide it properly, please forgive me.

You have a point about the paradoxes though, and I think at times we must learn to be comfortable in the gray, rather than have to have black or white answers.

Grace and peace to you.

LittleGift wrote:
Here are some facts about God that none of us would dispute:

1. God is sovereign, all-powerful, everything in heaven and earth happens only at His will.

4.He executes perfect justice

5. Above all, HE IS LOVE

These things seem contradictory if we take them in a "linear", "Logical" way (excuse the pun, Bro Logic! )

How can an omnipotent God allow rebellion against Himself?

How can a God of righteousness "wink at" sin?

How can a God of Justice send someone to hell if they had no choice but to rebel against Him and reject His salvation?

How can a God of love send anyone to hell?

How can a God of love compel anyone to love Him in return?
Love, by its very nature is freely given and received, or it would be coercian.

Yet how can an omnipotent God fail in His loving desire to "have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth"?

And how can an all-knowing, loving, righteous, just God deliberately create some individuals for destruction?

So many paradoxes!

Maybe we are looking at Scriptural Truth the wrong way altogether!

It isn't a mathematical problem but a kind of symphony!

It is the same with theology/doctrine.

roaringlamb wrote:

My point in posting what I did was simply to point out that the problem is not that none have shown logic how and why from Scripture. The problem as it was with me for awhile is that the flesh does not like it, and thus decides God must be fair to all, or He is not God.

Furthermore, it is not a "flesh" problem, it is a theological/doctrinal problem.
Why can't you get that?

As I have brought up before, was God unfair when He drowned the Egyptians in the Red Sea?

Did He go against their wills?

After all, they wanted to destroy Israel, and I am pretty sure they wanted to go on living too.

Yet, God is completely fair in drowning them as they had sinned against Him, as have all men.

o you must either carry out your argument of fairness to its logical end and say that in order for God to be "fair", He will save all men everywhere that have ever existed.

Ultimately, I suppose God would have to save Satan as well so that God cannot be labeled as unfair.

Ahh, but you will say that Satan rebelled against God and is rightly damned because of his rebellion. Yet man gets off free for the same thing?

Again, it seems you do not like the truth of God being Sovereign.

But you would like to have an open theistic view, where God must respond to mans' decisions, and does not know all things, and is not bringing all things to His expected end.

I have no stomach for a theology that makes God into a devilish tyrant.
What freeks me out is that people like you accept this theology.

Fact is, God is not how you discribe him.
He does not reject people, people reject him, and that is why they are in hell, not the other way around.
God hardens the hearts of man out of judgment because they hardend their heart first; and people are not born as vessles of wrath(Jer 18:4).
God has no plesure in the death of the wicked(Eze 33:11).

Since Eze 33:11 is true, why would HE creat non-elect as a vessle of wrath being not yet born?
That is not judgment, but an atrocity.

Your theology makes an infamous God who is not all loveing and very finite in grace.
All controling and the cause of everything.

He is a fiend that creats sentient beings for the purpose of eternal torment, and this is for his own plesure.

Funny thing is that I hate the God you describe, is it any wonder that the athiest off the street does too.
I am "elected" and they are not. why would I hate the God that you describe if it is only the "non-elect" that does?

I am not ranting against GOD, but the fallacious theologies/doctrins of perverts who would worship a god like that.

Hi Logic,

Here is a good link about this topic.

[url=http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/dangerso.htm]The Dangers of Reformed Theology[/url]

Jordan

Since most of the church is so intent on the old testament of living and doing, here is what God has to say about it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

This is just the word of God. This is how man lived under the old testament without Christ being the born again creature that now lives in the believer. If man was willed to not sin then he would not sin. If man was told not to sin and God knowing he would, God had to create, even before the foundation of the world a way back for the race of Adam. He did it already knowing that out of death must come life. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Ephesians 1:1-13 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Live in the Grace and presence of Jesus Christ to whom all Grace and life has been given for those that believe. Christ died for all, but all won't come to Him. If it were not for God and His Grace none would come to salvation and repentance. Regeneration and Salvation first by the Grace of God the Father, then repentance and coming to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit that is now in the believer sealing God the Son in our spirit and adoption as son's.

This is the old testament way of salvation:

Deu 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Which none can do.

This is the new testament way of salvation:

Ephesians 1:11-14 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Which can only be done by those in Christ:

Knowing that the world new Him not, how can we thank God for what He has done by His son? Every soul deserved death and hell, there are no words that can give thanks to The God of our Lord Jesus Christ for what they have done. It is not in us to give this thanks, only the Son knows that He completed the Father's will so God could have children in His house. It is only in the Christ that is in us that the Father receives the undoubted praise for the great revealing of the incredible Glory that Jesus Christ has been given, seated at the right Hand of The Father, do His Glory.

What is this exceeding greatness in Christ Jesus, which words cannot describe, only revealed by the Holy Spirit, the Sealer of our salvation in Christ Jesus?

Ephesians 1:19-23 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is His body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

All things? I have no answer for this, I only know that Jesus Christ is the answer, and The Holy Spirit will reveal the incredible answer in His prefect timing.

2 Corinthians 10:12-18 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ: Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand. But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

He will reveal even that unto us.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Perfect in Christ and no other in whom our Glory is in.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

Who are we predestinated to?

Then who's Faith are we predestinated to?

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Galatians 2:14-18 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

There is no faith in the law, there is only faith in Jesus Christ that saves to the utmost.

"You search the scriptures", there is no salvation their, there is only Salvation in the Faith of Jesus Christ. The Law has no faith how could the Law save except by works.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Gift of God is "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the Faith of Christ in the believer unto salvation: Phillip

Brother Logic,
I found this on another site, and felt it spoke volumes to your question. The original question is in line with the question you have.

Note that I did not write this, so when it says, "my response", it is the original author(John Hendryx) and not myself.

[i]A comment by David, a professed Christian (apparently), who said the following:

"So God Chooses to save some and not save others, which basically means he creates people knowing ahead of time he isn't going to save them but burn them in hell. What a monster"

My Response:
Hi David

Thanks for taking the time to post and unveil a common point of ignorance among professed Christians. Perhaps you do not realize it, but you just called God "a monster."

"How?", you ask, 'that's your God, not mine', you would say. Consider, are you thereby asserting that God did not know what would take place before He created the world? That He had no idea who he would save? That God is in fact, totally ignorant of any, and every, aspect of the future, including our salvation? Is there anything God does not know? Does time itself, therefore, have mastery over God? Such is not the God of the Scriptures nor is He any God that can be trusted to save. For if God did not know evil would enter the world before He created it then you have no way of knowing whether He will overcome evil in the future. For, if there is something outside of God like 'chance', or 'evil 'which God has no sovereignty over (the god you seem to propose), then evil would be on equal par with God. Such is a Greek, not a Hebrew or Biblical concept of God. Our comfort can only come from a God who has complete sovereignty over all events (Eph 1:11). There is no comfort in a god that has no idea what the future holds.

Similarly, in all concepts of God, even Arminian and Greek Orthodox ones, He exhaustively and meticulously knows the future. And if He knows the future exhaustively, before He created it, then we both know that the future cannot be otherwise than it was decreed. And He knows, not some, but all things before they take place, unless you believe God is ignorant of some things. Therefore, if you are a Christian, as you seem to claim, then even in your conception of God He knows exhaustively what would happen to each individual even before He created them. Their eternal destiny, therefore, could not be otherwise - from eternity He chooses some in Christ (Eph 1:3-5) according to His sovereign good pleasure. In other words, by your own words, you just called your own God a monster, unless you think God is, in any way, ignorant of the future, which would mean that He is no God at all, but a finite, created being. People who think this way need to be called to repentance, for it is pure ignorance and folly, and one of the highest forms of blasphemy, to call God a 'monster' simply because He exhaustively knows all things before they take place, AND this is exactly what you, (and many like you), have just done and do quite often. So if you acknowledge that God knows the future exhaustively, then I think repentance is in order for you because if you consder these things for a moment, you should recognize that you believe the same thing as I. I trust you have said this without deep consideration and if you ask forgiveness of God He will forgive your careless words because Christ has paid them in full.

If you still doubt, ask yourself, is there anything God is ignorant of? Do not fasten ignorance on God - it does not bode well for a Christian of any stripe. And you must remember, God justly casts persons into hell because of the sin he sees in them, not randomly. And since all have sinned, then some get justice and others mercy, but no one gets injustice.[/i]

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother Logic,
I found this on another site, and felt it spoke volumes to your question. The original question is in line with the question you have....

"So God Chooses to save some and not save others, which basically means he creates people knowing ahead of time he isn't going to save them but burn them in hell. What a monster"

My Response:
Hi David

Thanks for taking the time to post and unveil a common point of ignorance among professed Christians. Perhaps you do not realize it, but you just called God "a monster."

Do you not see the atrocities that are concluded from these theologies/doctrines in my first post?

Consider, are you thereby asserting that God did not know what would take place before He created the world?

Therefore, if you are a Christian, as you seem to claim, then even in your conception of God He knows exhaustively what would happen to each individual even before He created them.

Their eternal destiny, therefore, could not be otherwise - from eternity He chooses some in Christ (Eph 1:3-5) according to His sovereign good pleasure.

HE knows who will come to Him when HE calls.
He does not control any, otherwise HE would control all to be saved.

In other words, by your own words, you just called your own God a monster, unless you think God is, in any way, ignorant of the future, which would mean that He is no God at all, but a finite, created being.

HE is not ignorant of the future, but HE does not cause everything, otherwise HE would have caused Adam to never sin.
Furthermore, you are thre one making God "a finite" being in grace and love.

People who think this way need to be called to repentance, for it is pure ignorance and folly, and one of the highest forms of blasphemy, to call God a 'monster' simply because He exhaustively knows all things before they take place, AND this is exactly what you, (and many like you), have just done and do quite often. So if you acknowledge that God knows the future exhaustively, then I think repentance

[b]Question, please answewr:
1:[/b] Do you not see any injustices in my first post[b]?[/b]
They are the logical conclusions to your theology/doctrine.
[b]2:[/b] Why would you accept a theology/doctrine that makes God out to be a devilish tyrant[b]?[/b]
Find the truth that will not leads to these conclusions.

Ephesians 1:3-11 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

If we were predestinated to salvation by Grace, and that through faith, who does the Grace flow from and who does the Faith flow from for us to be saved.

This is what predestination is all about, not some to salvation and not to salvation, but the the Grace of God through the Faith of Jesus Christ that saves us.

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Who chose? When were we chosen? How are we Holy? Before whom In Love? Who predestinated us unto adoption of Children? By Whom to Himself? By whose good pleasure?

How are we saved? What are we predestinated to?

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are predestinated to be in Christ and that before the foundation of the world.

Who's Faith, who's Grace into whom?

This that we might be the son's of God.

Why does man think that God owes any man anything, including salvation. Only by Grace are any to be saved. For without Grace and mercy and Jesus Christ and the Cross, none would, could or could or would ever be saved.

He predestinated none to hell, that is just the place of all that are not saved. God wishes all could be saved but He know that all would not.

Not His fault but ours and fallen Satan, and he is already judged, his fate sealed.

Praise God that God has given us the Faith of Jesus Christ only because we believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Then all our salvation is in fear and trembling that only by Grace through that Faith are we saved, because we simply believed. Now the repentance and work of God begins in the believer by the Christ that is born again in us, that our new nature creation would get us into the kingdom of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi roaringlamb,

i looked at your post and have some comments.

"A comment by David, a professed Christian (apparently), who said the following:

"So God Chooses to save some and not save others, which basically means he creates people knowing ahead of time he isn't going to save them but burn them in hell. What a monster"
"

Indeed God created people knowing ahead of time he isn't going to save them. This doesn't make God a monster.

Similarly, in all concepts of God, even Arminian and Greek Orthodox ones, He exhaustively and meticulously knows the future. And if He knows the future exhaustively, before He created it, then we both know that the future cannot be otherwise than it was decreed. And He knows, not some, but all things before they take place, unless you believe God is ignorant of some things. Therefore, if you are a Christian, as you seem to claim, then even in your conception of God He knows exhaustively what would happen to each individual even before He created them. Their eternal destiny, therefore, could not be otherwise - from eternity He chooses some in Christ (Eph 1:3-5) according to His sovereign good pleasure.

And you must remember, God justly casts persons into hell because of the sin he sees in them, not randomly. And since all have sinned, then some get justice and others mercy, but no one gets injustice.

I would say the writer of this text (John Hendryx) explains more the arminian view then the calvinistic view. So I don't think the text helps giving an answer to the questions in the first post.

Their is a great difference in the future being fixed because God already knows what is going to happen.
And the future being fixed beacause God ordained what is going to happen and therefore also knows it.

The first lies the cause of men ending up in hell on men: God knew men would rebel but created them anyway, but in His mercy has offered Christ, whom he also knew many would reject (because of men doing his own pleasure and not Gods) leaving no other way than his wrath being poured out over them.
The second lies the cause of men ending up in hell on God ordaining them to hell: God not only knew they would rebel, but decreed they would rebel (according to Gods good pleasure) in order to cast them in eternal torment.

It seems to me the writer explains more in line with the first view.

if you consder these things for a moment, you should recognize that you believe the same thing as I. I trust you have said this without deep consideration and if you ask forgiveness of God He will forgive your careless words because Christ has paid them in full.

A true calvinist can't really say this with assurance can he? because he doesn't believe Christ paid for all... (or the writer must believe the person can only ask forgiveness if he is predestined ofcourse)

just giving my 2cents on that post.. I've just recently began to make study on both views and can't yet put myself on one or the other side because of different bible verses, i hope i'm not wasting my time but pray God will guide me on the right path, which could also be neither Calvinism nor Arminianism.

One thing is for sure though: God is good, righteous, true, loving, merciful, allknowing allpowerfull and often way beyond our comprehension.

bless God,

Jeppe

That is the question; Whosoever will come?

Without Gods intervention, NONE.

OLD TESTAMENT;

Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who [are] his, and [who is] holy; and will cause [him] to come near unto him: even [him] whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

NEW TESTAMENT;

1 Corinthians 4:1-7 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

1 Timothy 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Matthew Poole's Commentary on the Holy Bible
1Ti 2:4
Ver. 4. The apostle produces a clear, convincing reason, that the duty of charity in praying for all men is pleasing to God, from his love extended to all, in his willing their salvation, and their knowledge and belief of the gospel, which is the only way of salvation. From hence our Saviour's commission and command to the apostles was universal: Go and teach all nations, Mt 28:19; Preach the gospel to every creature, that is, to every man, Mr 16:15; he excludes no people, no person. And accordingly the apostles discharged their office to their utmost capacity, Col 1:24. But a question arises, how it can be said that God would have all men saved, when that the most of men perish? For the resolving this difficulty, we must observe, that in the style of Scripture the will of God sometimes signifies his eternal counsel and decree; that things should be done either by his immediate efficiency, or by the intervention of means: or, secondly, his commands and invitations to men to do such things as are pleasing to him. The will of God in the first sense always infallibly obtains its effect, Ps 115:3; thus he declares: My counsel shall stand, I will do all my pleasure, Isa 46:10; for otherwise there must be a change of God's will and counsel, or a defect of power, both which assertions are impious blasphemy. But those things which he commands and are pleasing to him, are often not performed without any reflection upon him, either as mutable or impotent. Thus he declares, that he wills things that are pleasing to him; as, I will not the death of a sinner, but that he should turn and live, Eze 33:11; and sometimes that he will not those things that are displeasing to him, as contrary to holiness, though he did not decree the hindering of them: thus he complains in Isa 55:12: Ye did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. This distinction of the Divine will being clearly set down in Scripture, answers the objection; for when it is said in the text, that God will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; and in the same sense by St. Peter, that God will have none perish, but come to repentance, 2Pe 3:9; we must understand it, not with respect to his decretive will, but his complacential will, that is, the repentance and life of a sinner is very pleasing to his holiness and mercy. And this love of God to men has been declared in opening the way of salvation to them by the Mediator, and by all the instructions, invitations, commands, and promises of the gospel, assuring them that whoever comes to Christ upon the terms of the gospel shall in no wise be cast off; that no believing believer shall be excluded from saving mercy. Then true repentance is applicable and our eyes will see and our ears hear.

Only God can predestinate righteously and all that man thinks of does in this area is nothing.
For it is God who works and does for His Good pleasure.

All our words are dirty rags and all out goodness is less than the least goodness of God.

It is Gods good pleasure that any are saved. He would not be unrighteous to completely wipe out all mankind. Which He almost did except for 8 souls

Genesis 6:5-8 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Not favor for anything he had done but by the Grace of God and that is how the new testament believer is saved unto the kingdom of God. By Grace through Faith. We have absolutely nothing to do with it, except believe what God has said about His Son Jesus Christ, that if we believe we shall be saved.

John 3:7-17 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Yes God had a purpose before the foundation of the world, and that purpose was Christ in the believer the Hope of Glory. Not because we deserved it but because of Gods love for the world and Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son.

In Christ: Phillip

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above

Hi everyone,

Katy-Did, you said

"This has nothing to do with salvation..."

But what happened to Korah?

Nothing to do with Calvin. Praise God for Calvin, even if he did not get all five right.
AT least he was martyred for Jesus Christ and not churchianity self indulgences.

Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who [are] his, and [who is] holy; and will cause [him] to come near unto him: even [him] whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

But whom He has chosen, will come, by His causation.

Not out of context but truth, it is God who chooses, not man. Because None would come by their own efforts. This He tried to show Korah, but they would not.

In Christ: Phillip

The only one that can top Arminius and Calvin is Paul, to cause such an uproar in the Church that we would dig deeper into the Word of God and search diligently seek the truth. Praise God He knows us well.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Who do you think was approved at the time, Calvin our the corrupt indulgences laden church?

In Christ: Phillip

Hi everyone,

Katy-Did, you said

"This discussion is not about one's call to ministry, but about salvation itself."

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660033]Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/color][/b]

and also

[b][color=660000] If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honor. [/color][/b]

Hi Katy-Did,

"Whosoever will may follow me!"

Where did you read this?

Thanks.

"Whosoever will may follow me!"

Since there is no Greek word for "whosoever", it is not wise to build theological doctrines around it.

Usually the verbs are indicating "the one/ones who..." It speaks of individuals that are doing the action described in the verb.

So in John 3:16, it would be "the one who believes/the believing ones will not perish.."

I still do not understand how any could make that passage a passage for a universal proposal, as the emphasis is not on the ones spoken of, but rather what they are doing that is leading to not perishing, which is believing.

I would however agree that whosoever will may come. However only those made willing will come.

Free will is a man pleasing myth. The will of all men is bound to their sinful desires, and until it is renewed, they will have no care whatsoever for Christ. They may love religion, and make up their own ways of approaching their idea of god, but it will not save them.

Hi Katy-Did,

In Mark 8:34 it reads as if those are conditions for following Him, [b]not the qualifications for being able to do so[/b].

He did not say, whosever will [b]may[/b] come after Him, if they will.

Is that what you are implying was said?

And I asked you about the two verse that were qouted before. Which you responded to with your statement.

Here they are again,

[b][color=660000] Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [/color][/b]

[b][color=660000] If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honor. [/color][/b]

Have a good night.

Hi katy-Did,

If I have spoken evil to you, or sinned against you, please tell me how.

Thank you.

3956 pas

Yes, and it is all of a whole. Or all of the ones believing, or all of the ones willing.

And it still does not imply the so called natural ability of man.

These are the logical conclusions to y'alls interp of the Bible.
No one has yet explained these.
To make the questions clearer, I emboldend the context.
Please give a piont by point explaination of each.
OR
Give the rease why you can/will not.

[size=medium]1:[/size] [b]Some people make[/b] the Atonement to be only for a chosen few(the Elect) where [b]God[/b] is [b][size=medium]not[/size] ALL Loving and very finite in grace[/b]. In contrast which the Atonement is for all and is ALL Loving and infinite in grace.

[size=medium]2:[/size] [b]Please explain that God would Create sentient men[/b] that are the non-chosen, non-elect. These must be hated creations, [b]for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell.[/b] Therefore, man is doing that which he was created to do, that is to sin & yet, being condemd for it.
The non-elect have no grace to be saved because the Atonement is not for them.
They were never suposed to be saved in the first place, which makes them created only to be distroyed in hell.
Therefore, [b]they are not in hell for what they have done, but in hell for that wich they were created for.[/b]

[size=medium]3:[/size] [b]Please explain how[/b] that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.
[b]Man is condemned for that wich is unavoidable.[/b]

[size=medium]4:[/size] [b]Please explain how[/b] that one must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ. This theology makes God wrathful and hating man because GOD would not let them obey by not regenerating them.
[b]Man is guilty for what God will not do.[/b]

This puts the blame on God for not giving them the ability to obey the command to repent and to put his faith in/on Christ.

[size=medium]5:[/size] [b]Please explain why God would condemn man from the result of His own doing.[/b]
or
[b]Man is guilty for what God did.[/b]
This is God making man candemned before the crime of sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam".
By this, God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".

[size=medium]6:[/size] [b]Please explain why God would make a world with sin when HE could have made one that didn't.[/b]
This means that He chose the world that has sin over the one that didn't. This, in turn, means that He wanted sin to exist, & yet condemns for that which HE wills.

When the truth is that God could not have made a world woith out sin and not infringe on free will.
(He couldn't have made a world with no sin by making a world with no laws, God is not lawless)

[size=medium]7:[/size] Please explain how God wanted Adam to sin.
Some say this as true.

[size=medium]8:[/size] [b]Please explain how[/b] those who are pre-selected to hell in contraposition to the Elect, can not ever repent because [b]God refuses to give them the ability(regeneration) and condemns for it[/b].
(Man is guilty for what God pre-ordains to be.)

One more question.
[b]9:[/b] Do you think that it is GOD who rejects man, instead of man rejecting GOD?
[size=medium] . [/size]

Roaringlamb, I'm confused...first you said we have no free will, and now you say

No need to be confused at all. Only those made willing will come. There is no contradiction or confusion.

Only those who are given the conviction of sin and need of Christ as Savior will come. Man cannot convict himself in a saving way, as he will try to work for his salvation, or scurry around feverishly to create some way that he can come to his idea of god. Anything and anyway he can apart from Jesus Christ. Whether it is by making himself more moral, or by attending church, or by giving to charities. But for a man to cast himself completely upon Christ alone is something that God works in His elect.

Is this in perfect keeping with John 3:14-17

It absolutely is-
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth(or literally "that the believing ones") in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth(again, that the believing ones) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Of course it does well to note how John uses the word "world" in his writings. He uses it to speak of a wicked system of evil fallen men. The marvel of John 3:16 is not the "whosoever", but rather God's love for a wicked mankind being demonstrated by Him sending His only begotten Son to die for some within that world.

Men in the wilderness who had sinned were not given supernatural abilities to first believe thereupon looking at the serpent on the pole. Nor is anyone forced to look up.

No, but we are dealing with whole other issue here, and that is faith in the crucified One. The serpent was a type of course, and many refused to look upon it and be healed.

However Jesus Himself said that NO MAN CAN come to me unless the Father draws him. So now you either choose to follow your previous way of interpreting Scripture and take this literally as you have with other portions, or you suddenly shift in your hermeneutic to make it appealing to man.

I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said there, no man can. No need to speculate about what He may or may not have been saying. No man can unless something happens first.

Are men robots

Yes, and they only serve sin and Satan until they are set free by Christ. After they are regenerated, they are like Adam in a sense, able to either sin or not sin. But natural man is a robot to his master which is sin.

has God given men the ability to reason

Men may reason all they like, but reason alone is not sufficient to be saved.

Romans 1 tells us all about those who see that there is a God, but rather than serve Him properly, they invent all kinds of deities and worship and serve the creature because the natural mind cannot come to Christ.

Romans 2 tells us of men having the law written on their heart, but then they use that as a means to justify themselves rather than seek God's righteousness through Christ.

The Law is natural to man, and man will continue to think he is climbing the ladder into Heaven by his deeds until he "sees" that Christ alone is God's prescribed means of acceptance. This is why the Gospel is to be preached, and why faith comes by hearing the message of God's forgiveness in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

All who believe that He did this for them receive a righteousness from outside of themselves that makes it as if they had done all God required themselves. That is indeed good news.

Yet many by their "reason" will reject this because they do not understand God's "foolishness", and they will say that they do not believe that God would act in such a way, or something similar because it offends them that they are not able to be righteous on their own apart from Jesus Christ.

His sovereign will room for men to make choices out of a God given conscience to reason.

You really must make up your mind here. If God is sovereign, then nothing is outside of His rule. Men make all kinds of choices, for instance I can choose what I want for breakfast right now, and exercise my "free will".

But one cannot use a non existing free will to come to Christ as a natural man's will is enslaved to sin and satan.

I believe you confuse the ability to choose natural things with the ability to choose Christ, and there could nothing further from the truth. Natural man will NEVER choose Christ, but instead create other ways and means of acceptance with God. The words that Christ spoke to Peter apply to all ho believe, "Blessed art thou Simon bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven."

Also if you do not understand the implications of the fall of man and original sin, it will be very difficult to see how wicked and corrupt men really and truly are. Thus the marvel of the Gospel is that God would save any at all!

Choose this day who you will serve
Choose life or death

Yes but these words were spoken to the covenant people of that day-Israel, and not to unbelieving nations around them. And again we are dealing with something entirely different in coming to Christ.

I may tell my brother, "choose you this day if you will give birth or not."

Now in one sense, it is absolutely impossible for him to bear children(I think you know why:-P ) but the truth is that if he became pregnant, he could give birth. So one truth and another seemingly opposite truth coincide with one another.

Consider the revelation that Israel was rejecting when these words were uttered as well. Would not reason give these people the "ability" to choose what they could see before them(the cloud and pillar of fire).

So is someone saying here we are not born with a free will? man I wished some here had the ability to splain this stuff to us like we were little children, man some of this stuff I would have to take to Jesus to help explain to me, hey thats an idea! :-P

Your definition does not apply or make sense when used in place of all scripture using whosoever will

My definition, if it goes against the original usage of the word is wrong. The Greek word "pas" was used to point to all of a whole. You can't change, and neither can I. This is how it was used in the Koine Greek in both secular writings and sacred.

We can't just decide what it means now, and erase what the original author's intention.

Were Adam and Eve before they sinned ROBOTS?

No, because sin had not entered the human race. They were free to sin, or not to sin. But their sin has erased the ability of man to come to God on his own apart from the work of God in them first.

It's funny because you can easily observe the fact that men will not come to Christ unless God does something first. It is easily observable to see that men would rather have a god of their own invention and their own way of self righteousness apart from Christ.

No cult teaching, or man's doctrine, simply the Scriptural principle of how man reacts to God's revelation through nature and law. Neither of which is enough to save a man, if it was, the Pharisees would have been heralded by Christ and not scorned for their self reliance.

Are you also saying that once one becomes saved (NOW IN CHRIST) that it is impossible for that person to sin, because again we are ROBOTS? If we are, there would be sinless perfection in every Saint? So you are a Holiness Calvinist as well?

Nope, we are not robots once we are saved. But now there are two principles within us- the old Adam, and the Holy Spirit. These two will war with each other until the day I am glorified.

Because I am Christ's, His Holy Spirit convicts me when I sin, and the Father chastens me to bring about repentance.

Or are you saying now that you are saved NOW God has given you a free will to obey or disobey? Why would he give you a free will now to disobey? Unless you are saying you have never ever since being saved disobeyed?????

It is because the old and the new are together, that I can obey or disobey God. His Spirit in me will make obey Him, not perfectly as there is and will be only One who did that.

The Spirit that God gives is a holy spirit, and works to conform us to the image of Christ. But the flesh is never done away with, thus the warfare of desiring to do the law with our minds, but doing contrary acts by our flesh. Of course those who are God's will be chastened and brought to repentance.

Actually, I sin all the time. I don;t love my neighbor as myself, I don;t love God with ALL of my mind, heart etc. Thus on these two alone, I am in trouble, and thus need a constant Mediator between God and myself.

Anyone who thinks they can perfectly fulfill the law in and of themselves is in for a rude awakening, and I hope God awakens them.

It's pretty simple actually.

Maybe you could address the other points I brought up, and find some answers to your questions.

I'll tell you though, much of what I believe is more Lutheran(if I have to give it a name)than anything, so much of it will not jive with modern evangelical thinking.

roaringlamb wrote:

Only those who are given the conviction of sin and need of Christ as Savior will come.

Concerning those who HE will not give the conviction of sin are doomed from before birth.

Man cannot convict himself in a saving way, as he will try to work for his salvation, or scurry around feverishly to create some way that he can come to his idea of god.

But for a man to cast himself completely upon Christ alone is something that God works in His elect.

You will say that God does not have an obligation because they are sinful, according to your theology/doctrine, He is the one who made sure of that thith the "federal headship of Adam".

The marvel of John 3:16 is not the "whosoever", but rather God's love for a wicked mankind being demonstrated by Him sending His only begotten Son to die for some within that world.

According to your theology/doctrine, HE created some of the world to be condemed(for his good plesure).

No, but we are dealing with whole other issue here, and that is faith in the crucified One.

The serpent was a type of course, and many refused to look upon it and be healed.

However Jesus Himself said that NO MAN CAN come to me unless the Father draws him. So now you either choose to follow your previous way of interpreting Scripture and take this literally as you have with other portions, or you suddenly shift in your hermeneutic to make it appealing to man.

Your way of interpreting Scripture makes God out to be a devilish tyrant. No wonder that athiest off the street hates GOD. I hate the god that you describe, I don't blame them.

I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said there, no man can.

Men may reason all they like, but reason alone is not sufficient to be saved.

All who believe that He did this for them receive a righteousness from outside of themselves that makes it as if they had done all God required themselves. That is indeed good news.

Yet many by their "reason" will reject this because they do not understand God's "foolishness",

You really must make up your mind here. If God is sovereign, then nothing is outside of His rule. Men make all kinds of choices, for instance I can choose what I want for breakfast right now, and exercise my "free will".

But one cannot use a non existing free will to come to Christ as a natural man's will is enslaved to sin and satan.

Also if you do not understand the implications of the fall of man and original sin, it will be very difficult to see how wicked and corrupt men really and truly are. Thus the marvel of the Gospel is that God would save any at all!

We are saved by grace through Faith.

Yep and I would never debate that.

But it seems that most people today have a different definition for the terms involved.

Some would say that their faith saves them. Well, technically, no it does not. It is the object of their faith that saves them, namely Jesus Christ and His finished work for them.

Too many have faith in faith, but not in Christ, and thus they trust their own works to save them(not saying faith is a work, that is another discussion). They are eerily similar to those whom Christ speaks of as saying, "Lord, Lord didn't we do this, and that..."

Other folks who say we are saved by grace equate grace with "a little help" so we can do the rest.

It is as if they see a ladder to Heaven, and decide they will climb it on their own, only to find the bottom rung is broken. So Jesus becomes the one who lifts them up past the broken rung, and now they can get on their way to Heaven by their own works.

They have sadly fallen back into a medieval Roman Catholic view of grace- "do your best, and God will take care of the rest." Grace exists to help me start the Christian life, or help me when I am in need, but the rest I am perfectly able to accomplish.

Saddest of all, this view then tells the person that unless they are sanctified completely, they are not justified either. That lie has crept into the vast majority of so called Protestant Churches, because the definitions became so blurred.

So that is why we may go round and round, and round. Because everyone has different meanings for the same words. But unfortunately someone must be right and someone must be wrong.

The Bible itself applied to personal experience and observation have led to the concrete convictions I have. I have told many others before that I became a "Calvinist" before I had ever read anything by Calvin.

I only use the term to define the doctrines I hold to, and in light of our discussion.

You still refuse to explain them.

No, you just did not like what I said.

Can something be free and a slave at the same time?

Logic here are three truths that exist
1)God is holy
2)God is sovereign
3)Sin exists

So you will have to wrestle these through on your own, but you cannot remove one to ease the others.

And again, you still have not explained to me how your all-loving God can create people that he knows will not choose him, and still send them to hell? Aren't they being created just to go to hell too?

Shouldn't God, if He is to be "fair" give faith to all men, and save all men, because he loves all men?

Wow! this thread has gone astray, I do know and believe and no one would ever in a million years change my mind that we "all" are born with a free will, which means a free will to accept or deny Christ and if you deny him you will end up in Hell and if you accept him as your Lord and Savior you will end up in Heaven, that the bottom line as for as I am concerned and thats in stone in my mind and heart. :-)

roaringlamb wrote:

You still refuse to explain them.

No, you just did not like what I said.

Can something be free and a slave at the same time?

Logic here are three truths that exist
1)God is holy
2)God is sovereign
3)Sin exists

His sovereignty does not mean all controling or the cause of all things.

Sin exists because there is law.
But, according to your theology/doctrine, god wantes sin and could have made a world with out it.
Since HE wanted sin, the ones sinning would be doing his will and being condemnd for it.

And again, you still have not explained to me how your all-loving God can create people that he knows will not choose him, and still send them to hell?

If one is of the elect, he has no choice because He was created for the sole purpose to be saved.

Sure, there is an "apearance" of choice, but in reality, the choice is ultimatly made by God.
God "regenerates", only some, so that they can not deny(no choice).
You might say that they had a choice in the matter after the "regeneration", then that would mean that they could have still rejected Him while being "regenerated"
That goes in contradiction to "irrisistable grace"
One has no choice in resisting, otherwise, it would not be irrisistable.
Furthermore, you would have a "born agian" sinner that rejects Christ.

So, in regards to your question. God creates all mankind out of love. He gives all a choice in the matter because He loves them.

Why would He create some that HE knows that will reject Him by choice?
He could not have made a world with out some being lost and not infringe upon free will.
Otherwise, He would most definatly save all by infringing uppon free will and electing all.

Would you seriously bake a poop pie?

That is the same as God creating a "non-elect", "vessle of wrath".
A poop pie would only be made for the sole purpose of being flushed down the toilet. So it is with the so called "non-elect" according to your theology.

Aren't they being created just to go to hell too?

Shouldn't God, if He is to be "fair" give faith to all men, and save all men, because he loves all men?

However, yes, He has given all mankind the ability to have faith.
All mankind has faith already, they only choose to put their faith in the wrong person/object.

Hi everyone.

Katy-Did, you said

"To only pick and choose those scriptures that fit into your theology ignoring the rest is the most dangerous road you can walk down."

"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

- Acts chapter 11 verse 18(KJV)

Shouldn't you include this also?

Chris

The only answer to these heinous fallacies that I pose in my first post is This:
[color=0000CC]1: Some people make the Atonement to be only for a chosen few(the Elect) where God is not ALL Loving and very finite in grace. In contrast which the Atonement is for all and is ALL Loving and infinite in grace.[/color]
The answer is that the Atonement is the translated word kaw-far' from Hebrew to English which means “to cover” of the Jewish Fast of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). It incorporates the words reconciliation, propitiation (satisfaction) and forgiveness. The work of Christ on His cross makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

This doctrine of Limited Atonement misinterprets the word atonement to be the salvation of man, when, in actuality, the true meaning is that it is only the taking away of sin, it is the forgiveness if sin, thus making peace between God and man (Col1:20). Christ's work makes redemption possible for all but guaranteed for only those who take advantage of it and apply it to their selves.
They claim that the atonement saves man instead of the relationship with Christ. The actual salvation is eternal life (John 17:3).

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]2: God would Create men that are the non-chosen, non-elect. These must be hated creations, for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell. Therefore, man is doing that which he was created to do, that is to sin & yet, being condemd for it.
The non-elect have no grace to be saved because the Atonement is not for them.
They were never suposed to be saved in the first place, which makes them created only to be distroyed in hell.
Therefore, they are not in hell for what they have done, but in hell for that wich they were created for.[/color]
God elects accourding to HIS foreknowlege that we will accept Him, not for the reason of accepting or rejecting them.
God does not create vessels of wrath(Men are not born as a vessel of wrath).
God creats all mankind as a vessel for honor, but they are mared in HIS hand(Jer 18:2-6)[they choose to rebel and disobey], therefore, HE reforms them into vessels of wrath out of judgment.

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]3: Man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.
Man is condemned for that wich is unavoidable.[/color]
All mankind is able to have faith in Christ.
All mankind is able to do what is required to be right with God. The reason that they are condemnd is they do not do what they are able to do.
The are condemnd because they choose not to put their faith in HIM, they choose not to repent.

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]4: One must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ. This theology makes God wrathful and hating man because He Himself would not let them obey by not regenerating them.
Man is guilty for what God will not do.

This puts the blame on God for not giving them the ability to obey the command to repent and to put his faith in/on Christ.[/color]
Regeneration before salvatiuon is unbiblical.
Man does not need to be "regenerated" in order to put their faith in HIM and/or repent.
Therefore God is wrathful and hating man because man chooses not to do what he is already able to do.
Man is guilty for choosing not to do what is commanded of him.

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]5: God would condemn man from the result of His own doing.
This is God making man condemned before the crime of sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam".
By this, God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".[/color]
The "Federal Headship of Adam" is not Biblical.
Sin nature is mans attempt to justify the reason for his own choice to rebel.
If it is only mans choice for sinning, he can not explain why one will always choose to sin.
The answer is that one will allways choose to sin is because he does not know Christ, he does not have eternal life.

All mankind is able to not sin by walking after the spirit according to Rom 8:5. The only way to do this is by choosing to put their faith in/on Christ and HIS Attonment and by repenting; this makes the relaitionsip with HIM possible which gives Eternal life. Eternal lif is the power to walk after the spirit that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in them that have a relationship with HIM.

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]6: God would make a world with sin when HE could have made one that didn't.
This means that He chose the world that has sin over the one that didn't. This, in turn, means that He wanted sin to exist, & yet condemns for that which HE wills.[/color]
Truth is that God could not have made a world with out sin and not infringe on free will.
(He couldn't have made a world with no sin by making a world with no laws, however, God is not lawless)
God did not want sin, that is the reason why HE comands not to sin and it is why HE condemns it.

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]7: Those who are pre-selected to hell in contraposition to the Elect, can not ever repent because God refuses to give them the ability(regeneration) and condemns for it.
(Man is guilty for what God pre-ordains to be.)[/color]
All man kind has the ability, they do not need to be "regenerated" befor they can choose.
God does not pre-ordain any one to hell!

beloved,unbelievers have been declared condemned already.justice has already been rendered and mankind is guilty and already sentenced.it is mercy of God that saves thru the finished work on the cross.it is for all who will believe; the elect.jimp