Is this True? | SermonIndex

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ginnyrose Jan 14, 2008

I got the following email and wonder whether it is true. I googled it briefly but did not learn anything other then that others are wondering as well. Is there an expert out there that knows?

Here goes:

"An unusual approach to a biblical story

Why did Jesus fold the linen burial cloth after His resurrection?
I never noticed this....

The Gospel of John (20:7) tells us that the napkin, which was
placed over the face of Jesus, was not just thrown aside like the grave
clothes. The Bible takes an entire verse to tell us that the napkin was
neatly folded, and was placed at the head of that stony coffin.

Early Sunday morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came
to the tomb and found that the stone had been rolled away from the
entrance. She ran and found Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one
whom Jesus loved.

She said, 'They have taken the Lord's body out of the tomb, and I
don't know where they have put him!' Peter and the other disciple ran to
the tomb to see. The other disciple out ran Peter and got there first.
He stooped and looked in and saw the linen cloth lying there, but he
didn't go in. Then Simon Peter arrived and went inside. He also noticed
the linen wrappings lying there, while the cloth that had covered Jesus'
head was folded up and lying to the side

Is that important? Absolutely! Is it really significant? Yes! In
order to understand the significance of the folded napkin, you have to
understand a little bit about Hebrew tradition of that day. The folded
napkin had todo with the Master and Servant, and every Jewish boy knew
this tradition.

When the servant set the dinner table for the master, he made sure
that it was exactly the way the master wanted it. The table was
furnished perfectly, and then the servant would wait, just out of sight,
until the master had finished eating, and the servant would not dare
touch that table, until the master was finished. Now if the master was
done eating, he would rise from the table, wipe his fingers, his mouth,
and clean his beard, and would wad up that napkin and toss it onto the
table. The servant would then know to clear the table. For in those
days, the wadded napkin meant, 'I'm done'. But if the master got up from
the table, and folded his napkin, and laid it beside his plate, the
servant would not dare touch the table, because...........

The folded napkin meant, 'I'm coming back!'""

Thanks!
ginnyrose

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Miccah Jan 14, 2008

Wow. Pretty neat. I never really gave it much thought, along with a lot of other things I guess. :-)

Thank you for pointing this out. this is something to gnaw on for a while.

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rowdy2 Jan 14, 2008

Reply to ginnyrose
My reaction when I read your post was that I’m still trying to untangle myself from the filthy rags. Christ Jesus was with out sin but I was a filthy lowdown rotten stinking dead sinner.

S

sermonindex Jan 14, 2008

Hi Ginny

I never thought much about it either until reading an explanation that seems to me to tick all the boxes.

When they wrapped someone for burial they apparently used to wrap the main part of the body in cloths, then the head in a separate cloth. The idea was that when Jesus rose from the dead He simply left the cloths behind just as they were, without unfolding or distrbing them in any way (after all, He could pass through locked doors, so a bit of linen wouldn't have been a barrier!).

So the headpiece wasn't folded up as if Jesus was tidying the place before leaving, but ~~[b]~~exactly as it was when it was wrapped around the head[/b] - only the head had gone from inside it! Same with the rest of the grave clothes. They just lay there having never been unwrapped.

Similarly the same author** suggested that the angel rolled the stone away, not to let Jesus out, but ~~[b]~~to show that He was already gone![/b]

Wow!!!

Makes sense to me anyway.

Jeannette

P.S. I have an idea that Jesus could go through stones, cloths, locked doors etc after the Resurrection because He was more solid than these things, not the other way around!

What do you think?

[**Dorothy Sayers, the English crime writer, who also wrote a series of radio plays, "Man Born to be King" on the life of Christ.]

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

rowdy2 wrote:
Reply to ginnyrose
My reaction when I read your post was that I’m still trying to untangle myself from the filthy rags. Christ Jesus was with out sin but I was a filthy lowdown rotten stinking dead sinner.

That's another angle on it. Thanks for the reminder!

Interesting that Lazarus needed someone to untie him - Jesus didn't, He was already free!

Isn't it wonderful that He can therefore free US!!! :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Wish there was a smiley for "YIPPEE, HALLELUJAH!"

Don't despair Bro Rowdy. Nobody could have been more tangled up than I've been, but Dr Jesus is on our case!

in Him

Jeannette

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kendall Jan 15, 2008

I am not sure as to where the content of the email came from, but Clyde Box (sp?) preaches a sermon on the folded napkin. To me it is a neat idea, but I would rather trust in the second coming because of Christ's words and not a folded napkin :-) .

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ginnyrose Jan 15, 2008

Interesting that Lazarus needed someone to untie him - Jesus didn't, He was already free!

Interesting observation...I never thought of this before. Wonder what the significance of this is?

I consider the email I shared beautiful BUT I hate to share something like this with others only to be told later it is the product of someone's imagination. To pass on fictitious pieces as being authentic discredits Christianity, will just provide critics more fuel with which they can and do mock us Christians as being gullible, ignorant. And it is not being truthful.

I am still waiting to hear from someone who will say with a definite "Yes" or "no".

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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ginnyrose Jan 15, 2008

What do I think?

I know one thing it must have been awesome to have experienced what they did. To have witnessed Jesus' preaching for three years, see him crucified and then resurrected. I think it would really humble a body to have been witnesses of these events.(Why would God choose me, of all people, to be a partaker of these events?) No wonder they were willing to endure persecution. Perhaps this is the clue to what will enable ~~[i]~~anyone[/i] to suffer for the name of Jesus!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

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kendall Jan 15, 2008

Again, I do not know the source of the email, but I heard Bro. Box (sp) rant and rave about the folded napkin for about 45 minutes. After hearing all that he had to say, my thoughts are as follows:

1. You should never base your theology only on Jewish tradition. (Which was the basis of 45 minutes of ranting and raving on a folded napkin.)
2. The Jewish tradition was for the dinner table, not grave clothes.
3. The New Testament contains many explicit statements that Jesus will be coming back. "I will come again." "This same Jesus will return in like manner." Et al.
4. The disciples appeared to have missed the "obvious" meaning of the napkin, for they were completely taken by surprise to see Jesus.
5. If this was such an obvious indication that Christ is coming back, why is it nowhere picked up by any other Scripture passage, the apostles, the early church, or any of church history? (To my knowledge.)

So, ginnyrose, I would say that it is a neat idea, but a very far-fetched idea. It makes for nice emails, but a very poor basis for theology. Just my "two cents."

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geddingsm Jan 15, 2008

The folded napkin was a sign that the body was not stolen as the Jews tried to say. Who would steal a body then take the time to fold a cloth? Who would have left any cloths behind, unwrapping a body then stealing it?
With John being the last gospel written, the readers by that time would be aware of the stolen body story.

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

C'mon folks... everybody knows He folded the linen because if He didnt He would be in trouble with His mom for not making His bed. The last thing He needed on Resurrection Morning was His mother nagging at Him... "Jesus, before you go hang out with your friends, you get back in there and make your bed!"

Krispy

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MSeaman Jan 15, 2008

His mother nagging at Him... "Jesus, before you go hang out with your friends, you get back in there and make your bed!"

Too funny, Krispy.

:-P

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

kendall wrote:
I am not sure as to where the content of the email came from, but Clyde Box (sp?) preaches a sermon on the folded napkin. To me it is a neat idea, but I would rather trust in the second coming because of Christ's words and not a folded napkin :-) .

Hi Kendall

I don't understand how the folded napkin can have any significance to the return of Christ, but it sure has significance re His ~~[i]~~Resurrection[/i]!

Blessings

Jeannette

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

ginnyrose wrote:
I am still waiting to hear from someone who will say with a definite "Yes" or "no".

OK, I personally ~~[i]~~don't[/i] think that Jesus or anyone else, folded the head piece, or any other of the graveclothes.

Just looked up the word "folded", and it actualy means to roll up or wrap together, not to fold flat as we would fold a sheet.

The Gospel account in John 20 shows that John understood the significance of this . He's not just recording what he saw for historical accuracy, but to emphasise spiritual Truth as well.

(my emphasis) [color=990000]4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, ~~[b][u]~~and he saw, and believed[/u][/b].[/color]

in Him

Jeannette

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

KrispyKrittr wrote:
C'mon folks... everybody knows He folded the linen because if He didnt He would be in trouble with His mom for not making His bed. The last thing He needed on Resurrection Morning was His mother nagging at Him... "Jesus, before you go hang out with your friends, you get back in there and make your bed!"
Krispy

Trust you to say that! :lol:

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

Yea... that was one of my more deeper, spiritual moments.

Krispy

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

ginnyrose wrote:
Interesting that Lazarus needed someone to untie him - Jesus didn't, He was already free!
Interesting observation...I never thought of this before. Wonder what the significance of this is?

I suppose because it shows that Lazarus was still only human, and would eventually die again, because he had, in himself, no power over death? Whereas Jesus has conquered death.

I'm sure there's more and deeper meaning than that, but a thought for starters.

I consider the email I shared beautiful BUT I hate to share something like this with others only to be told later it is the product of someone's imagination. To pass on fictitious pieces as being authentic discredits Christianity, will just provide critics more fuel with which they can and do mock us Christians as being gullible, ignorant. And it is not being truthful.

Sorry Ginnyrose, I only scanned the original post very quickly, and somehow missed the key bit at the end!

Yes, its a beautiful idea to link the carefully folded napkin with Jewish customs. Pity it probably isn't as the email says, but the significance as evidence for the Resurrection more than makes up for it, don't you think?

As someone said, I belive Jesus will return because the Bible says so, not because of a napkin. But the napkin confirms that He is alive!

in Him

Jeannette

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ccchhhrrriiisss Jan 15, 2008

Hi ginnyrose...

I've actually received this same email several times. It was forwarded by individuals who asked the same questions about the accuracy of its claims (particularly in regard to the Jewish "folded napkin" custom of the first century). Most of these emails were the same as the one you included (verbatim).

After a couple of years of searching, I am still stumped. I've even emailed scholars of ancient Jewish customs, and they responded that they had never heard this tradition. I've read through several commentaries, and none of them shed much light on this passage other than the obvious -- that Jesus resurrected. My mother thought that the reason for the inclusion of this might have been as a warning against believing the myths surrounding the Shroud of Turin (strips of linen and a facial hankerchief vs. a singular burial shroud).

Last night, a quick google search revealed a recent long, heated discussion over this email on the Snopes (urban legend) website. I thought that it was interesting that some of the unbelievers on that website were questioning the wording in the email's text ("~~[i]~~...every Jewish boy knew this tradition[/i]."), since there is so little evidence to prove that these words are true.

While this is a nice sounding story, I don't know that we should regard it as anything else. I think that it is safe to say that this should still be viewed as an "urban legend" until displayed otherwise. Anyway, thank you for bringing this up! It's nice to know that I wasn't the only person wondering about the origin or truthfulness of this email.

:-)

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

What about the Shroud of Turin? isn't this Jesus' burial cloth?

Bub

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

bubbaguy wrote:
What about the Shroud of Turin? isn't this Jesus' burial cloth?

Probably not. It doesn't seem to square with the Biblical account for one thing. I think they are still arguing about whether it's genuine or not.

Wasn't it preserved by the Knights of St John, or some such group? They were(are?) some kind of secret society (spiritually dodgy). I wouldn't put it past such a group to crucify someone on purpose (the Shroud image does resemble those figures you see on mediaeval tombs) and somehow get that impression onto the cloth that way.

I don't know, but it doesn't matter, we ~~[i]~~know[/i] Jesus rose and is alive now, and with us!

in HIm

Jeannette

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi ginnyrose...
I've actually received this same email several times. It was forwarded by individuals who asked the same questions about the accuracy of its claims (particularly in regard to the Jewish "folded napkin" custom of the first century). Most of these emails were the same as the one you included (verbatim).
After a couple of years of searching, I am still stumped. I've even emailed scholars of ancient Jewish customs, and they responded that they had never heard this tradition. I've read through several commentaries, and none of them shed much light on this passage other than the obvious -- that Jesus resurrected. My mother thought that the reason for the inclusion of this might have been as a warning against believing the myths surrounding the Shroud of Turin (strips of linen and a facial hankerchief vs. a singular burial shroud).
Last night, a quick google search revealed a recent long, heated discussion over this email on the Snopes (urban legend) website. I thought that it was interesting that some of the unbelievers on that website were questioning the wording in the email's text ("~~[i]~~...every Jewish boy knew this tradition[/i]."), since there is so little evidence to prove that these words are true.
While this is a nice sounding story, I don't know that we should regard it as anything else. I think that it is safe to say that this should still be viewed as an "urban legend" until displayed otherwise. Anyway, thank you for bringing this up! It's nice to know that I wasn't the only person wondering about the origin or truthfulness of this email.
:-)

Thanks for that information Chris, and for confirming the difference between the Shroud and the actual grave clothes that Jesus was wrapped in - didn't notice on first reading that you'd mentioned it too.

Blessings

jeannette

S

sermonindex Jan 15, 2008

LittleGift, I don't think the Shroud is a fake. Reason being that it has a negative image. these were unheard of before photography. How would a negative image get created?

bub

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rowdy2 Jan 16, 2008

If someone can deceive a believer that Jesus saw corruption and stained the grave clothes then you have been put in the position of doubting the truth of the Bible. Be not deceived and led astray from the truth..

S

sermonindex Jan 16, 2008

bubbaguy wrote:
LittleGift, I don't think the Shroud is a fake. Reason being that it has a negative image. these were unheard of before photography. How would a negative image get created?
bub

I don't know. Maybe whoever made it had access to technology that we aren't aware of. Or maybe its an occult kind of "miracle". It's the fact that the Knights of Saint John kept the Shroud, as well as the fact it doesn't tie in with the Bible, that makes me suspicious. They were, I understand, deeply into things they ought not (maybe I should check up on that, don't know any real details).

Satan can do miracles you know, for those who (knowingly or not) obey him to the extreme in search of hidden power.

Either way, after some thought, I don't personally think its the actual grave-cloth of Jesus Himself.

And even if it was, it's a diversion from Him if a mere object, however "sacred" it's supposed to be, is venerated for its own sake.

I'm not saying that you are doing that, Bub, but surely its present keepers, and many Catholics, do.

Blessings

Jeannette

S

sermonindex Jan 16, 2008

rowdy2 wrote:
If someone can deceive a believer that Jesus saw corruption and stained the grave clothes then you have been put in the position of doubting the truth of the Bible. Be not deceived and led astray from the truth..

Do you know what the stain is supposed to be of, Rowdy? I have read about it but can't remember. Thought it was supposed to be of either sweat or blood, (before Jesus died) rather than the stain of corruption?

Just wondered, too lazy to look it up myself!

Thanks

G

ginnyrose Jan 17, 2008

Quote by Krispy:

C'mon folks... everybody knows He folded the linen because if He didnt He would be in trouble with His mom for not making His bed. The last thing He needed on Resurrection Morning was His mother nagging at Him... "Jesus, before you go hang out with your friends, you get back in there and make your bed!"

Steve, just thinking here - perhaps this should be included in the email as an alternative explanation…have to think about this. Maybe I can return that email to the sender with this possible explanation! But my, this is too funny…LOL

Jeannette:

I do believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus as recorded in the WORD. I am, however, aware that Jewish culture sometimes can shed more insight into a story of which we are ignorant.

Thanks to you kind folks for sharing your impressions. The bottom line is that the reality of Jesus death and resurrection does not rest on whether this interpretation of this event is believed to be factual or not.

And now there goes another email to the trash - except that I will return it to the sender with the addendum contributed by Krispy! LOL

Blessings,
ginnyrose

R

rowdy2 Jan 17, 2008

Reply to Sister Jeannette

I don’t know any thing specific and I tend not to trust new findings, not that I believe all are false, but the veracity of the Bible comforts me because it has stood the test of time. Biblical Truth was what arrested me and made me seek out my Lord and keeps me content to be one of the sheep.. GOD bless

KJV
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

S

sermonindex Jan 17, 2008

Finally getting to read this. Wow, what goes around in emails. "Forward this to ten people and you'll receive a miracle tomorrow." :-P

Joh 20:7 And the napkin, ~~[u]~~that was about his head[/u], not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

Just like --- Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

"wrapped together" in the Greek is "rolled up" not folded.

The shroud thing is also a hoax. Amen.

The latest thing is, they claim it had a certain blood type in that stain and now so do all these stigmatas and other bloody miracles.
And it's turning into a big cultic thing on that blood type now. It is a rare blood type - HA - I have it. rotflmho. It's supposed to be AB but few are saying whether it's AB+ or AB- or just AB.

It's really gone nuts out there. Do a google search on the "turan blood type". Very scarey - now there's folks thinking they're related biologically to Jesus .... the elite - actually. And the rest come from monkeys or not enough copper in our diets.
Only one group - the ones who go by that "blood type diet" - saying that AB blood is only 1000 yr.s old - so what does that make them then - nephilim? Ma ma mia!

S

sermonindex Jan 17, 2008

Joh 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

This verse right here prooves the Shroud of Turan to be false because it is one piece, where clearly scripture makes a distinction between what His body was wrapped in and what His head was wrapped in. But as with most Catholic mythology... whats in scripture doesnt matter.

Krispy

S

sermonindex Jan 17, 2008

HE_Reigns wrote:
"wrapped together" in the Greek is "rolled up" not folded.

Hey, I said that first! ;-)

...The latest thing is, they claim it had a certain blood type in that stain and now so do all these stigmatas and other bloody miracles.
It's really gone nuts out there. Do a google search on the "turan blood type". Very scarey - ~~[b]~~~~[i]~~now there's folks thinking they're related biologically to Jesus[/i][/b]....

[my emphasis, above] I hadn't heard that one about the special blood group, but am not a bit surprised!

The heresy that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and had at least one child has apparently been around a long time. But the Da Vinci Code popularised it. Probably not too many believe it yet, but everyone knows about it.

The stage is now being set for one to claim that he has the special blood group and is a direct descendant of Christ, with the same powers, who is returning to save the world. He will also claim, and be believed, to be the "Promised One who will save mankind" from other faiths and cultures, such as the Mahdi of Islam.

He will be believed by very many, because of the prevailing spirit of deception that is increasing, and will increase, as the Bible shows clearly.

Maybe he will turn out to be an exact DNA match (not only the same blood group) for the blood, or whatever, on the Shroud. Technology for such testing is being made more and more efficient and able to get DNA from smaller samples, so it should soon be possible. I wouldn't put it past Satan to arrange an exact DNA match, or alternatively for the lie to be believed even without scientific evidence. All it needs is for a few dishonest "experts" to claim that it's so...

Things seem to be coming to the boil nicely, (or rather, nastily), getting everything in place for the appearance of Antichrist.

And some Christians are going to fall for it, while the rest are asleep!

Don't you realise, folks, that we are being set up?

Most Christians of course wouldn't fall for the "blood" thing, or that Jesus had descendants, but many already believe the unscriptural lie of "Dominion Theology" for example: This is another "doctrine of demons" - (literally) that is preparing the Church to (if possible, and it ~~[i]~~is[/i] possible if we don't stay close to the Lord and know our Bibles), receive Antichrist by mistake for the True Christ.

in Him

Jeannette

S

sermonindex Jan 17, 2008

rowdy2 wrote:
Reply to Sister Jeannette
I don’t know any thing specific and I tend not to trust new findings, not that I believe all are false, but the veracity of the Bible comforts me because it has stood the test of time. Biblical Truth was what arrested me and made me seek out my Lord and keeps me content to be one of the sheep.. GOD bless
KJV
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

AMEN, Brother!