Did Christ die for:
A) All the sins of all the people.
B) Some of the sins of all the people.
C) All of the sins of some of the people.
Please choose which one you believe, and explain why.
Krispy
Hi Krispy,
I believe A. If no-one else agrees, I'll come back and explain why, but it would be better if a brother who agrees, gives his reply, I think.
Intresting questions, but I won't be partaking, for now.
This thread could go any way.
I hope it goes well.
God bless.
I'm asking this because for a long time I've tried to avoid Calvinism vs. Arminianism for a long time... I tend to be middle of the road on that. But what I percieve to be "hyper" Calvinism is raising it's head in our fellowship... so now I am forced to take a serious look at this debate.
And yesterday I was asked this question... and so I thought I would throw it out on this forum and see if y'all can answer this question with some explanations to help me get started on this journey.
Krispy
Krispy,
If Christ died for all of the sins of all of the people then Hitler would be among the saved. His sins would be forgiven. One may argue that we must appropriate His forgiveness to be saved. The problem arises that the blood Christ shed for Hitler's sin goes unavailed. It is wasted. This, in it's logical end, is the heresy of universalism.
If Christ's blood only covers some of the sin of all of the people then he died in vain. He is the supreme sacrifice, the "Lamb who takes away the sin of the world."
The only answer is that Christ died for all of the sin of some of the people. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." To paraphrase John 3:16: "This is how God loved the world," in this way, by "giving his Son that the elect (whoever believes) may have everlasting life." Scripture is replete with examples of God's electing grace. He loves Israel, yet sets aside only a remnant, for example. In the same way, God loves humanity and proves it by keeping a remnant for himself.
SDG,
Dave
I understand Krispy, I have the same problem too.
I still avoid it, and will, because it has raged for hundreds of years and we are no better off than when it first started.
I do hope people will use scripture rather than opinion or emotion to answer the questions.
I'll sit on the sidelines and see what develops.
God bless.
If Christ died for all of the sins of all of the people then Hitler would be among the saved.
If I put a gift under the Christmas tree for everyone in the room... and you refuse to accept it, then I still put a gift under the Christmas tree for everyone in the room. You just refused to accept it.
If Christ's blood only covers some of the sin of all of the people then he died in vain. He is the supreme sacrifice, the "Lamb who takes away the sin of the world."
I agree with this. But I find it interesting that you quote [b]John 1:29[i]The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The only answer is that Christ died for all of the sin of some of the people. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." To paraphrase John 3:16: "This is how God loved the world," in this way, by "giving his Son that the elect (whoever believes) may have everlasting life." Scripture is replete with examples of God's electing grace. He loves Israel, yet sets aside only a remnant, for example. In the same way, God loves humanity and proves it by keeping a remnant for himself.
But what about [b]2 Peter 3:9[i]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(Keep in mind... I'm not arguing with you, I'm picking your brain. I want to learn the truth about this whole thing.)
Krispy
Does man have any decision in the salvation process? Or does God create some to salvation and some to condemnation... with no choice in the matter? If you're born to condemnation then no matter how much you believe the Bible and believe and trust in God... you're hell bound?
And what does this do for the Great Commission? Why should I be a missionary if God creates some to go to hell and some to go to heaven regardless? Why bother?
If we are created in God's image, then why would He not give man a will? An ability to obey or disobey? An ability to choose?
Krispy
Krispy,
Yes, man does have a responsibility in his service to God. But we are taught that we are dead in our trespasses and sins, we are like Lazarus in the tomb. When the voice of the Savior calls us forth, we must respond. I wont attempt to tackle the question of double-predestination, I'm leaving for work.
Paul asked "how can they hear without a preacher?" We don't have a clue whom God elects, but he has chosen the foolishness of preaching the gospel to save the hell-bound. Calvinists are just like Arminians in this, we would love to see everyone enter the Kingdom.
We do have a will. Prior to salvation that will is bent on sin. We are slaves to sin. Christ did not die for free men, rather captives. He sets our will free.
Gotta go!
SDG,
Dave
double-predestination
I've never even heard of that. This whole topic makes my head hurt enough... I dont even want to ponder what "double-predestination" means! lol
Paul asked "how can they hear without a preacher?" We don't have a clue whom God elects, but he has chosen the foolishness of preaching the gospel to save the hell-bound. Calvinists are just like Arminians in this, we would love to see everyone enter the Kingdom.
But if they have already been preordained, or predestined to salvation, then what does it matter if we go or not? They will be saved one way or another... right? If you say "no", then the whole Calvinist theology crumbles. Right?
Krispy
Hi Krispy,
I see I made a wise decision last post ;-) but here are a couple of excerpts from Ron Bailey's old thread [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=1212&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]Propitiation and the Red Heifer
[i]'True, but the purpose of my original contribution was to show that a gap could and sometimes did exist between the 'sacrifice' and its 'application'. [b]Between redemption accomplished and redemption applied
It was originally posted on another site in a conversation with one who stated that Christ's accomplished redemption was inevitably applied to the unconditionally elect. I was seeking to show that the availability of the remedy was not a guarantee of its application.'
...
'The whole purpose of the original post was [u]to show that this sacrifice did not have an automatic effect but needed a moment of appropriation
So Christ's death requires personal application, and is not an automatic consequence.' (p6)
I'm not suggesting you should 'automatically' agree with philologos, but I think the discussion is bound to cover much of your question.
It is the difference between redemption accomplished and redemption applied. Until the 'sacrifice' was applied to the 'transgressor' it did not benefit him.
Yea, I think this is what I believe.
Wouldnt it stand to reason that if God predestined some to condemnation, and some to heaven... and that God controls every aspect of what happens here on earth, that God is the creator of evil? Take Hitler for instance... if God is controlling us all, and has preordained or predestined (according to the Calvinist definition of those terms) every action we do... like puppets on a string... then thru Hitler, didnt God commit murder a million times over?
I just cant comprehend that man has no will, no choices to make... even tho scripture says in Deut. 30:19 [i]I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore [b]choose
Krispy
i see many flaws in calvinism , ex if God elected only some why would Jesus weep for Jeusalem? he dident elect them so they couldent have come anyway....
I havent found an satisfying answer yet to how it all fits togeheter, but i see to many cracks in calvins five points. To many verses that CLEARLY says something else, where calvinism fails in my view is when they try adapt these verses to fit the doctrine.
And also the classic why God would ask ALL men to repent, if they cant anyway, seems to me as God would mock men if he did.
Now also it says very clear he predastinated some...
how it fits? i dont know, but i am convinced [i]some
yes Rons quote is very good, also i read something by Wesley i have for my sake found to be the "closest" to balance all scripture in my opinion, i will go search and post it here if i find it.
how it fits? i dont know, but i am convinced some aspects of calvinsim is clearly against hundreds of verses.
Yea, I agree.. this is where I am at with it. I feel comfortable that Calvinism has many holes in it, and even some heresy involved. But then... how do I reckon the verses that speak about preordained and predestined? What exactly does it mean? If Calvin got it wrong, then there must be a correct definition out there somewhere.
Krispy
On Predestination
By John Wesley
Sermon 58
(text from the 1872 edition - Thomas Jackson, editor)
Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son: -- Whom he did predestinate, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:29, 30
1. Our beloved brother Paul," says St. Peter, "according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his Epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15, 16)
2. It is not improbable, that among those things spoken by St. Paul, which are hard to be understood, the Apostle Peter might place what he speaks on this subject in the eighth and ninth chapters of his epistle to the Romans. And it is certain not only the unlearned, but many of the most learned men in the world, and not the "unstable" only, but many who seemed to be well established in the truths of the gospel, have for several centuries, "wrested" these passages "to their own destruction."
3. "Hard to be understood" we may well allow them to be, when we consider how men of the strongest understanding, improved by all the advantages of education, have continually differed in judgment concerning them. And this very consideration, that there is so wide a difference upon the head between men of the greatest learning, sense, and piety, one might imagine would make all who now speak upon the subject exceedingly wary and self-diffident. But I know not how it is, that just the reverse is observed in every part of the Christian world. No writers upon earth appear more positive than those who write on this difficult subject. Nay, the same men, who, writing upon any other subject, are remarkably modest and humble, on this alone lay aside all self-distrust,
And speak ex cathedra infallible.
This is peculiarly observable of almost all those who assert the absolute decrees. But surely it is possible to avoid this: Whatever we propose, may be proposed with modesty, and with deference to those wise and good men who are of a contrary opinion; and the rather, because so much has been said already, on every part of the question, so many volumes have been written, that it is scarcely possible to say anything which has not been said before. All I would offer at present, not to the lovers of contention, but to men of piety and candour, are a few short hints, which perhaps may cast some light on the text above recited.
4. The more frequently and carefully I have considered it, the more I have been inclined to think that the apostle is not here (as many have supposed) describing a chain of causes and effects; (this does not seem to have entered into his heart;) but simply showing the method in which God works; the order in which the several branches of salvation constantly follow each other. And this, I apprehend, will be clear to any serious and impartial inquirer, surveying the work of God either forward or backward; either from the beginning to the end, or from the end to the beginning.
5. And, First, let us look forward on the whole work of God in the salvation of man; considering it from the beginning, the first point, till it terminates in glory. The first point is, the foreknowledge of God. God foreknew those in every nation, those who would believe, from the beginning of the world to the consummation of all things. But, in order to throw light upon this dark question, it should be well observed, that when we speak of God's foreknowledge, we do not speak according to the nature of things, but after the manner of men. For, if we speak properly, there is no such thing as either foreknowledge or afterknowledge in God. All time, or rather all eternity, (for the children of men,) being present to him at once, he does not know one thing in one point of view from everlasting to everlasting. As all time, with everything that exists therein, is present with him at once, so he sees at once, whatever was is, or will be, to the end of time. But observe: We must not think they are because he knows them. No: he knows them because they are. Just as I (if one may be allowed to compare the things of men with the deep things of God) now know the sun shines: Yet the sun does not shine because I know it, but I know it because he shines. My knowledge supposes the sun to shine; but does not in anywise cause it. In like manner, God knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it. In a word, God, looking on all ages, from the creation to the consummation, as a moment, and seeing at once whatever is in the hearts of all the children of men, knows every one that does or does not believe, in every age or nation. Yet what he knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in nowise caused by his knowledge. Men are as free in believing or not believing as if he did not know it at all.
6. Indeed, if man were not free, he could not be accountable either for his thoughts, word, or actions. If he were not free, he would not be capable either of reward or punishment; he would be incapable either of virtue or vice, of being either morally good or bad. If he had no more freedom than the sun, the moon, or the stars, he would be no more accountable than them. On supposition that he had no more freedom than them, the stones of the earth would be as capable of reward, and as liable to punishment, as man: One would be as accountable as the other. Yea, and it would be as absurd to ascribe either virtue or vice to him as to ascribe it to the stock of a tree.
7. But to proceed: "Whom he did foreknow, them he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son." This is the Second step: (To speak after the manner of men: For in fact, there is nothing before or after in God:) In other words, God decrees, from everlasting to everlasting, that all who believe in the Son of his love, shall be conformed to his image; shall be saved from all inward and outward sin, into all inward and outward holiness. Accordingly, it is a plain undeniable fact all who truly believe in the name of the Son of God do now "receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls;" and this in virtue of the unchangeable, irreversible, irresistible decree of God, -- "He that believeth shall be saved;" "he that believeth not, shall be damned."
8. "Whom he did predestinate, them he also called." This is the Third step: (Still remembering that we speak after the manner of men:) To express it a little more largely: According to his fixed decree, that believers shall be saved, those whom he foreknows as such, he calls both outwardly and inwardly, -- outwardly by the word of his grace, and inwardly by his Spirit. This inward application of his word to the heart, seems to be what some term "effectual calling:" And it implies, the calling them children of God; the accepting them "in the Beloved;" the justifying them "freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ."
9. "Whom he called, them he justified." This is the Fourth step. It is generally allowed that the word "justified" here is taken in a peculiar sense; that it means he made them just or righteous. He executed his decree, "conforming them to the image of his Son;" or, as we usually speak, sanctified them.
10. It remains, "whom he justified, them he also glorified." This is the Last step. Having made them "meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light," he gives them "the kingdom which was prepared for them before the world began." This is the order wherein, "according to the counsel of his will," the plan he has laid down from eternity, he saves those whom he foreknew; the true believers in every place and generation.
11. The same great work of salvation by faith, according to the foreknowledge and decree of God, may appear in a still clearer light, if we view it backward, from the end to the beginning. Suppose then you stood with the "great multitude which no man can number, out of every nation, and tongue, and kindred, and people," who "give praise unto Him that stretch upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever;" you would not find one among them all that were entered into glory, who was not a witness of that great truth, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord;" "not one of all that innumerable company who was not sanctified before he was glorified. By holiness he was prepared for glory; according to the invariable will of the Lord, that the crown, purchased by the blood of his son, should be given to none but those who are renewed by his Spirit. He is become "the author of eternal salvation" only "to them that obey him;" "that obey him inwardly and outwardly; that are holy in heart, and holy in all manner of conversation."
12. And could you take view of all those upon earth who are now sanctified, you would find no one of these had been sanctified till after he was called. He was first called, not only with an outward call, by the word and the messengers of God, but likewise with an inward call, by his Spirit applying his word, enabling him to believe in the only-begotten Son of God, and bearing testimony with his spirit that he was a child of God. And it was by this very means they were all sanctified. It was by a sense of the love of God shed abroad in his heart, that everyone of them was enabled to love God. Loving God, he loved his neighbor as himself, and had power to walk in all his commandments blameless. This is a rule which admits of no exception. God calls a sinner his own, that is, justifies him, before he sanctifies. And by this very thing, the consciousness of his favour, he works in him that grateful, filial affection, from which spring every good temper, and word, and work.
13. And who are they that are thus called of God, but those whom he had before predestinated, or decreed, to "conform to the image of his Son?" This decree (still speaking after the manner of men) precedes every man's calling: Every believer was predestinated before he was called. For God calls none, but "according to the counsel of his will," according to this Orothesis, or plan of acting, which he had laid down before the foundation of the world.
14. Once more: As all that are called were predestinated, so all whom God has predestinated he foreknew. He knew, he saw them as believers, and as such predestinated them to salvation, according to his eternal decree, "He that believeth shall be saved." Thus we see the whole process of the work of God, from the end to the beginning. Who are glorified? None but those who were first sanctified. Who are sanctified? None but those who were first justified. Who are justified? None but those who were first predestinated? Who are predestinated? None but those whom God foreknew as believers. Thus the purpose and word of God stand unshaken as the pillars of heaven: -- "He that believeth shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned." And thus God is clear from the blood of all men; since whoever perishes, perishes by his own act and deed. "They will not come unto me," says the Savior of men; and "there is no salvation in any other." They "will not believe;" and there is no other way either to present or eternal salvation. Therefore, their blood is upon their own head; and God is still "justified in his saying" that he "willeth all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of his truth."
15. The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, "With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;" and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, "I the Lord change not." Yet when he speaks to us, knowing whereof we are made, knowing the scantiness of our understanding, he lets himself down to our capacity, and speaks of himself after the manner of men. Thus, in condescension to our weakness, he speaks of his own purpose, counsel, plan, foreknowledge. Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally? To one who was so gross in his conceptions might he not say, "Thinkest thou I am such an one as thyself?" Not so: As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than thy ways. I know, decree, work, in such a manner as it is not possible for thee to conceive: But to give thee some faint, glimmering knowledge of my ways, I use the language of men, and suit myself to thy apprehensions in this thy infant state of existence.
16. What is it, then, that we learn from this whole account? It is this, and no more: -- (1) God knows all believers; (2) wills that they should be saved from sin; (3) to that end, justifies them, (4) sanctifies and (5) takes them to glory.
O that men would praise the Lord for this his goodness; and that they would be content with this plain account of it, and not endeavour to wade into those mysteries which are too deep for angels to fathom!
Hey again...
I post the following for your review and comments. Please dont misunderstand me and think this is me trying to disproove Calvinism. I am on the fence, and wanting to know truth. Not someone's systematic theology.
Anyway, I dont know who wrote the following piece, but it certainly asks some very interesting questions that I would like to see answered, for my own clarification.
Krispy
[b]The Book of Hebrews Refutes Calvinism
The book of Hebrews refutes the Calvinist or TULIP doctrines of unconditional and “sovereign” election and irresistible grace, that God sovereignly and arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and irresistibly and absolutely draws them so that on one hand it is impossible for the non-elect to be saved and on the other hand it is impossible for the elect not to be saved. If this were true, the Holy Spirit would not give such dire warnings and exhortations to professing believers about the possibility of apostasy, because if they are elected they could not possibly perish and if they are not elected, nothing they could do would change their status.
Consider, for example, the following passages:
Consider Hebrews 2:3: “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.”
This exhortation makes no sense in light of Calvinist doctrines. If election is as the Calvinist teaches and it is a matter of an individual being sovereignly chosen by God, how could the elect neglect salvation and how could the non-elect do anything other than neglect salvation?
Consider Hebrews 3:12-14: “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.”
If the elect are predetermined “sovereignly” and if election has nothing whatsoever to do with the sinner himself and if he is irresistibly drawn and sovereignly kept so that he surely perseveres, what could this exhortation possibly mean? How could the sovereignly elected, irresistibly drawn elect depart from God, and how could the non-elect do anything other than depart from God?
Consider Hebrews 4:9-11: “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”
How could this exhortation possibly apply to TULIP type election? This passage says the rest of salvation is something that every person must seek to enter into and all are urged to do so, but the doctrine of “sovereign” election teaches us that those elected to God’s rest are predetermined solely by God and they have no choice in the matter and will assuredly enter into His rest.
Consider Hebrews 6:4-6: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
If TULIP theology is true, why the exhortation? How could the elect fall away? And how could the non-elect do anything but fall away?
Consider Hebrews 10:26-29: “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
Again, if TULIP theology is true, why would such an exhortation be given to professing believers? If they are sovereignly elected, they will surely persevere and if they aren’t they surely won’t. According to Calvinist doctrine, it has nothing to do with them or what they do.
If election is “sovereign” and “unconditional” in a Calvinist sense and the believer has no choice whatsoever in the matter of salvation, these passages don’t make any sense.
If, on the other hand, election involves an element of foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2) and involves a personal choice on the part of the sinner (“whosoever believeth,” Jn. 3:15, 16; 12:46; Acts 10:43; Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 John 5:1; Rev. 22:17; etc.), the exhortations and warnings in Hebrews make perfect sense. Because if this is true, and we know that it is because the Bible everywhere teaches it, then the sinner, being given light from Christ (Jn. 1:9) and being drawn by Christ (Jn. 12:32) and being convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:8) can, because of this gracious divine enablement, either believe on Christ or not and it is also possible for a sinner to come close to salvation without actually possessing it. Therefore he needs to be exhorted to believe on Jesus Christ truly and sincerely and not to turn away before he has been genuinely born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and adopted into God’s family.
Well I am not Calvinist, and I am not against Calvinism as to because I do not know the totality of what they believe or teach. But as far as the question at hand" who did Christ die for"-I think it is best to simply let Christ answer:
John 15: 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life FOR HIS FRIENDS. 14 YE ARE MY FRIENDS, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, and ORDAINED you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should REMAIN: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you
To me, it is clear that Jesus laid down his life FOR HIS FRIENDS.
C) All of the sins of some of the people.
I really did not want to get involved in this, but, here goes anyway.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: [b]the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, [b]and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
John 10:27 [b]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 [b]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
What of those who do not believe?
John 10:26 But ye believe not, [b]because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you
Notice it does not say, "because you do not believe, you are not my sheep" but instead, "you do not believe, BECAUSE you are not my sheep."
Notice also in Isaiah's prophecy of the Messiah-
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify [b]many
Compare this to Christ's words at the last supper-
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is [b]shed for many
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for [b]many
This is important especially when you look at verses like the following-
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
All whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, and those only will be not only justified, but glorified. They will persevere unto the end.
Of course we must start at the beginning of all of this, and decide at the outset if you believe that all men are dead in sin. This is because if they are, and if they willfully sin against God and the revelation He has given them through both nature, and conscience, they are deserving of damnation alone.
So you have a mass of sinful, rebellious mankind upon which God looks(beforehand) and picks out a people for Himself, not because of anything in them, or their good works, but because He chose to. These He redeems by the shedding of Christ's blood, and all of these will be brought to faith through the preaching of the Gospel.
Why preach? Because the natural revelation is only enough to condemn a man, but not save him. Christ alone saves, and Christ cannot be found in nature, or in the law. Rather He is found in the Gospel, and in the Scriptures, and in the sacraments of the Lord's Supper, and Baptism.
It is really no different than in the OT where God chooses to form the nation Israel. He chooses a people for Himself, and establishes a means by which they may commune with Him. Other surrounding nations did not participate in this. A few individuals were brought out of other countries, and welcomed into the covenant people, but the vast majority of mankind worshiped gods of their own creation.
Here we see that the blood of the sacrifices only availed for the people to whom God made the covenant, and it is the same now.
I am sure this is nowhere near the end of this conversation, and I am going to get a million of the same questions that have already been answered in other threads, but never the less....
Also Krispy, the book of Hebrews does not refute Calvinism at all. Those passages are warnings to those who are being tempted to turn back to the sacrificial system because of the persecution they were undergoing at the time.
That is why they are warned not treat the blood of Christ as nothing. To turn back to being justified by their own works would essentially mean there would be no way of repentance as these self justifying works could not save.
*Double-predestination is simply the idea that if God has predestined some to salvation, then it is logical to think that others have been predestined for reprobation. Or, in easy terms, those who are not saved, were not predestined to be saved.
Amen, very well and graciously put roaringlamb
Thank you Krispy for your post on Hebrews.
I totally agree. Hebrews is Grace vs Law. It is also a great book to uncover cults.
Hebrews is talking about a New and Living way, through the veil, that is to say His flesh...I am crucified with Christ.....finding that perfect REST in Christ.
The Anchor of our soul is through the veil, and the Father we can now come to is through the veil. No one can come to the Father except through the Son.
Hebrews teaches what FAITH is...the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews is to Jews as Galatians is to Gentiles.
The Tulip is not preached in either.
Grace....is! The Life we live under Grace, not law.
Katy
Krispy,
I think this verse answers your question:
eph:5:25
Husbands love your wives even as christ also LOVED his church and gave himself for it.
church= called out ones
not the called, but the Church- the called OUT
it seems pretty clear
Christ gave himself for the called out ones: Christans.. the church
Love
aNDY
remember, the epistals were written to Christians, so when you see the word:we, us the writer is talking about the church
andy
OK... good food for thought from everyone. And I am more than grateful for the civil tone of this discussion. One reason why I have always avoided this topic (and I know this sounds contradictory for those who know me well) is because it usually breeds very contentious and judgemental threads. This is good stuff so far.
Let me ask this... if Jesus died for His elect, and them only, and God chose beforehand who would be saved and who would not be saved... why did He need to die anyway? God could have instilled faith in their hearts right from the beginning and saved Himself a lot of time and effort.
Also, if God wishes that NONE should perish, but ALL should come to salvation... isnt that God wishing against His own will?
And no one has tackled the sticky question of if God has predestined everything, including Hitler... then isnt God responsible for millions upon millions of murders? I mean after all, according to Calvinism (as I perceive it), Hitler had no choice in the matter. Instead of the old saying "the devil made me do it", didnt God make Hitler do it? Wouldnt that make God at least an accessory to murder? Wouldnt it have been pre-meditated murder?
But yet... there is no evil in God.
What about in the OT when Moses persuaded God not to kill the nation of Israel? God intended to wipe them all out, but Moses pleaded with God not to... and God "repented" (meaning changed His mind and decided not to). Isnt that God going against something that He "pre-ordained"?
Krispy
again John is wrtting to Saints:
1John 4:10
Herein is LOVE not that WE(saints) loved God, but that he LOVED US( saints) and sent his SON to be the propitiation for OUR (SAINTS)sins.
love
andy
Andy... I have to disagee with your interpretation of that verse. I think your stuffing Calvinism into that verse instead of letting that verse flow freely and taken at face value.
Krispy
"Let me ask this... if Jesus died for His elect, and them only, and God chose beforehand who would be saved and who would not be saved... why did He need to die anyway? God could have instilled faith in their hearts right from the beginning and saved Himself a lot of time and effort." krispy
What if God willing to shew his wrath and TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wraith fitted to destruction:
and that he might Make Known the Riches of HIS glory the vessels of mercy which he had afore prepared unto glory" rom 9.22-23
remember.
IS there unrighteousness with GOD? GOD forbid.
love andy
then who is john or paul wrtting to?
[b]1 John 4:10[/b] [i]Herein is LOVE not that WE(saints) loved God, but that he LOVED US( saints) and sent his SON to be the propitiation for OUR (SAINTS)sins.[/i]
Andy... lets remove the words that you added in order to fit Calvinism into this verse:
[b]1 John 4:10[i]Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Yep, He sure did... and how do I know this? [b]John 3:16[i]For God so loved [b]THE WORLD
Doesnt say that God so loved "us", or "saints", or "the elect", or "some people", or "the ones He chose"... it plainly says THE WORLD. And taken at face value, on it's own, without slapping someone's "theology" on it, it clearly means mankind... as a whole. THE WORLD.
This verse has nothing to do with Calvinism, and in fact, seems to refute Calvinism.
Does it not?
Krispy
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood
I think, simply put, he purchased the Church with his own blood.
KrispyKrittr wrote:[b]1 John 4:10[/b] [i]Herein is LOVE not that WE(saints) loved God, but that he LOVED US( saints) and sent his SON to be the propitiation for OUR (SAINTS)sins.[/i]
Andy... lets remove the words that you added in order to fit Calvinism into this verse:
[b]1 John 4:10[i]Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Yep, He sure did... and how do I know this? [b]John 3:16[i]For God so loved [b]THE WORLD
Doesnt say that God so loved "us", or "saints"... it plainly says THE WORLD. And taken at face value, on it's own, without slapping someone's "theology" on it, it clearly means mankind... as a whole. THE WORLD.
Does it not?
Krispy
Krispy, I just want to add this to what you said regarding Jon 3:16 "the world"
We must also remember what Jesus said about the world:
John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I think, simply put, he purchased the Church with his own blood.
But that doesnt really address the issue. The issue is: Did God create some to life and some to death? In other words, if you're created to be saved (as a Calvinist will put it) you will be saved no matter what, or you're created unto death and you can never be saved no matter what.
That, to me, seems to go against scripture (not to mention logic) on so many different levels.
Krispy
KrispyKrittr wrote:I think, simply put, he purchased the Church with his own blood.
But that doesnt really address the issue. The issue is: Did God create some to life and some to death? In other words, if you're created to be saved (as a Calvinist will put it) you will be saved no matter what, or you're created unto death and you can never be saved no matter what.
That, to me, seems to go against scripture (not to mention logic) on so many different levels.
Krispy
Think of Judas Iscariot, the Anti-christ, and the false prophet-these are a just a few of the people in scripture who CAN NEVER be saved-they were born to BE LOST ETERNALLY.
"What about in the OT when Moses persuaded God not to kill the nation of Israel? God intended to wipe them all out, but Moses pleaded with God not to... and God "repented" (meaning changed His mind and decided not to). Isnt that God going against something that He "pre-ordained"?"
Krispy
that's a very good question:
God can not go back on His plans. if this would not be true, then salvation could change and fAITH IN CHRIST WOULD HAVE NO POWER TO SAVE US .. If GOd pre ordains" something it must come to pass,
John 1 :17 " every good gift and every perfect gift comes from above and cometh down from the Father of Lights, With whom is no VARIABLENESS, neither shadow of turning"
Hebrews 6:17
Wherein God shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability(unchangableness) of His counsel, confirmed by a oath.
If God sets out something he must finish it , or else where would are faith lie.. God has called and elected people to partake in Christ's death, buriel and ressurection, so it must be..
love
andy
John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I think all that prooves is that the world rejects Him. That is indicative of "choice"... free will.
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye [b]reject
Jesus said:
John 12:48 [color=FF0000]He that [b]rejecteth
Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, [color=FF0000]What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders [b]rejected
Luke 17:25 [color=FF0000]But first must he suffer many things, and be [b]rejected
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, [color=FF0000]Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders [b]rejected
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers [b]rejected
Simply put... you can not reject something unless it is presented to you and you are given the choice to reject it or accept it. Doesnt this fly in the face of "irresistable grace"? If it's irresistable then it is impossible for you to reject it.
Krispy
God can not go back on His plans
So God planned to change His mind in that passage of scripture? That doesnt make a bit of sense to me.
(by the way, andy, thanx for discussing this with me... at the end of the day we may not agree on this... or we might... but either way, I appreciate it)
Krispy
We would Jesus weep for Jerusalem?
and why did he say this
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
seems to me, they had a CHOICE, and if they dident, was Jesus just putting some drama on or what? i meen if he did not elect them why go through that when he knew they could never ever come any way because he himself made them not able to come to him, even if they had wanted to.... the couldent because they where not elect?
any one see what i am talking about?
KrispyKrittr wrote:John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I think all that prooves is that the world rejects Him. That is indicative of "choice"... free will.
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye [b]reject
Jesus said:
John 12:48 [color=FF0000]He that [b]rejecteth
Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, [color=FF0000]What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders [b]rejected
Luke 17:25 [color=FF0000]But first must he suffer many things, and be [b]rejected
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, [color=FF0000]Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders [b]rejected
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers [b]rejected
Simply put... you can not reject something unless it is presented to you and you are given the choice to reject it or accept it. Doesnt this fly in the face of "irresistable grace"? If it's irresistable then it is impossible for you to reject it.
Krispy
In John 15:17 Christ is not talking about rejection, he simply says " the world CANNOT receive him"- the point is not about their choice to choose or reject,-the point that Christ is stating is that they simply CANNOT RECEIVE HIM-
The issue is not rejecting, it is simply what they CAN'T do
Think of Judas Iscariot, the Anti-christ, and the false prophet-these are a just a few of the people in scripture who CAN NEVER be saved-they were born to BE LOST ETERNALLY.
Yea... see, thats where the scales tip in the other direction for me.
There has to be a way for all this to flush out. I just dont know where that is, and the more I look at Calvinism the more I dont think it has the right answers. Not that it's all wrong, but I dont think it's all right either.
Krispy
In John 15:17 Christ is not talking about rejection, he simply says " the world CANNOT receive him"- the point is not about their choice to choose or reject,-the point that Christ is stating is that they simply CANNOT RECEIVE HIM-
Thats correct... in the world's current state, which is full tilt rejection of God. The opportunity is out there for the world to NOT reject Him.
Krispy
Let me ask this... if Jesus died for His elect, and them only, and God chose beforehand who would be saved and who would not be saved... why did He need to die anyway? God could have instilled faith in their hearts right from the beginning and saved Himself a lot of time and effort.
Because God cannot break His own standards just to forgive even His people. So someone has to perfectly fulfill the law in order for that to be put to the account of those who would be saved.
Or as Paul says-
Romans 4:25 (Christ)Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Also, if God wishes that NONE should perish, but ALL should come to salvation... isnt that God wishing against His own will?
This has been dealt with in other threads, but I would just simply say to look at the audience to whom this is written. Peter of course is writing to-
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 [b]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
He then opens the second letter by saying-
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, [b]to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
Now we know that he is addressing the same folks mentioned in the first epistle because he says this-
2Pe 3:1 [b]This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you;
Peter is writing to Christians, so when we come to the verse in question, we must determine who the us is that God is longsuffering towards, and what is His promise?
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The promise is the return of Christ and His relieving these folks from the persecution they were going through.
The us to whom God is long suffering are the people to whom Peter is writing, which are Christians. God is not willing that any of His people should perish, but come to repentance.
Now of course there is the popular idea that this somehow means that God wants all men to be saved, and because man's free will cannot be violated, He lets them choose, but it's not really what poor ole' God wants. But God has placed His will in the hands of men to be determined by them.
If that does not seem blasphemous, I do not know what is? For God does all He sets out to do, and if He wants a person saved, they will be, end of story. Personal experience in each of our lives should allow us to see that there was an unseen hand that directed the events that led us to Christ, and that though it was as if we were doing it, God was drawing us to Christ. Which of course brings in Christ's words of John 6, "no man can come to me unless the Father which sent me draws him."
And no one has tackled the sticky question of if God has predestined everything, including Hitler... then isnt God responsible for millions upon millions of murders? I mean after all, according to Calvinism (as I perceive it), Hitler had no choice in the matter. Instead of the old saying "the devil made me do it", didnt God make Hitler do it? Wouldnt that make God at least an accessory to murder? Wouldnt it have been pre-meditated murder?
God's sovereignty and human responsibility are difficult to figure out.
The moral law of God makes man responsible to Him, but it cannot save a man. So a man may break the law all the time, but not be free from the responsibility to keep the law.
It is similar to the man who speeds down a back country road. He is breaking the law, and thinks that because no one is there to stop him he is getting away with it. He still is guilty. Then comes the day when a camera is mounted along that same road, and the police bring him in with evidence of his crime.
There are three truths that we all must wrestle with as all the saints who have gone before us-
1)God is holy
2)God is omnipotent
3)Sin exists
These three truths stand though they seem at odds with each other, and one cannot remove one or another to make it work.
For example, if we say God is not omnipotent, then we do not have the God of the Bible. If we say that God is both holy and omnipotent, but deny that sin exists(Christian Science does this), we are not Biblical either.
I do not understand how it all works, but even in the Scriptures God uses the Assyrians to chastise Israel, he uses Babylon to bring back His people. He uses Roman soldiers to crucify His Son to bring redemption for His people.
What about in the OT when Moses persuaded God not to kill the nation of Israel? God intended to wipe them all out, but Moses pleaded with God not to... and God "repented" (meaning changed His mind and decided not to). Isnt that God going against something that He "pre-ordained"?
Well we also see that "it repented" God that He made man, but yet Jesus death, and our works have been since before the foundation of the Earth.
So, God was upset with His work even though it was His plan?
God knew all along what would happen, it was not a surprise to Him, and if it was, then He is not omniscient. It seems more to the changing of Moses, than the changing of God.
ok, if God gives everyone a chance to be saved, then why would God order the killings of thousands of people( old, young ,babies, pregnant moms, ) what about their free will?
did the children have a say so? did they get a chance to repent?
or better yest what about the aztecs, never heard about Christ, was that fair that they never got a chance to believe on Christ untill cortez, is God unfair? if faith in Christ is the only way then there our many who will perish in their sins for never hearing about Christ.. Is that fair? I put way what i thought was fair a long time ago, " shall not the judge of the earth do right?"
love andy
Eph:5:25
Husbands love your wives even as christ also LOVED his church and gave himself for it.
John 15: 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life FOR HIS FRIENDS. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Is the world, the friend of Christ?
John 3:16 For God so loved THE WORLD...
Which was absolutely blasphemous to the Jewish mind, and is the point Jesus is making to Nicodemas.
There are many times in Scripture where "world" does not mean "every man, woman, and child ever created". If one wanted to take that view, I suppose it would be logical to assume that since God is love, and He loves the world and all that is in the world, then He must love satan too!
Note I am not serious, so please don't worry. Y'all have enough fun telling me how wrong I am about "Calvinism"
:-P
Hi Krispy,
There are verses at the end of 2 Cor 5 which contribute to this discussion. I'm quoting from Tyndale first so you can see how the KJV is different.
[i]For the love of Christ constraineth us, because we thus judge, if one be dead for all, that then are all dead, and that he died for all, that they which live, should not henceforth live unto themselves but unto him which died for them and rose again.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh. Insomuch though we have known Christ after the flesh, now henceforth know we him so no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things are become new. Nevertheless all things are of God, which hath reconciled us unto himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given unto us the office to preach the atonement. For God was in Christ, and made agreement between the world and himself, and imputed not their sins unto them: and hath committed to us the preaching of the atonement. Now then are we messengers in the room of Christ: even as though God did beseech you through us: so pray we you in Christ's stead, that ye be at one with God: for he hath made him to be sin for us, which knew no sin, that we by his means should be that righteousness which before God is a-loved.
[color=0000FF]14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And [i]that
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [i]him
17 Therefore if any man [i]be[i]he is
18 And all things [i]are
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [i]you[i]you
21 For he hath made him [i]to be
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
But to assume that Jesus is implying free will here is to do the very thing that people always accuse us Calvinists of doing- reading into the text what is not there.
Jesus is simply making a statement, I would have but you would not. Where does He say anything about free will?
Prior to this, Christ had told them a couple of times that hearing, they would not hear, and seeing they would not see, lest at any time they would be converted. And this was done to fulfill what the prophet Isaiah spoke.
Jesus also told his disciples that to them it was [i]given
That would even mean, he loves the anti-christ, and the false prophet-though he already knew he would one day in the fullness of time destroy them in the lake which burneth with fire and brimestone.
The Bible says of God: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated
That would even mean, he loves the anti-christ, and the false prophet-though he already knew he would one day in the fullness of time destroy them in the lake which burneth with fire and brimestone.
Great point.
Sometimes it is difficult to understand that God can create a person for His will even if that person is not a Christian. Like Judas Iscariot, or Babylon, or the Assyrians, or the Egyptians. All of these are tools in the hand of God to bring about His will.
It is interesting to look at Jeremiah and how he sees the shifting in military and political power from Assyria to Babylon, but attributes it to God's work, and not man's.
There are many times in Scripture where "world" does not mean "every man, woman, and child ever created". If one wanted to take that view, I suppose it would be logical to assume that since God is love, and He loves the world and all that is in the world, then He must love satan too!
More definitions out of the Calvin book of definitions.
God hath commendeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.
You make God a liar with your version of twisted logic.
Not all men will repent, we know this, however, any religion that limits God and calls for a secret select few is most definitely a CULT.
Calvinism is another me, myself and I gospel. An Accursed gospel at that.
The Gospel is about Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and risen. The Gospel was first preached in Genesis 3:15, and ends in Revelation.
The Bible is about JESUS, not about YOU.
Mormons think it's about them
JW's think it's about them
Calvinists think it's about them
See a pattern???? :-P
Katy
More definitions out of the Calvin book of definitions
Katy I take offence at your constant berating of views different to yours and labeling it a cult.
World in the Scriptures does not mean every man, woman, and child ever created. It cannot, and plain common sense would show you that.
In the following verse, tell me how much taxes you paid, or how much Mexico paid-
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, [b]that all the world should be taxed.
Hmmm, you weren't alive then you say? But if world means every man woman and child ever created, then doesn't this apply to you?
Or could it mean that "world" does not mean "everyone" in all of its uses?
John 12:19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
... "the world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody?(including the Church in the world) The words "world" and "all" areused in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words aregenerally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
very true, context is key
love andy
Hi Krispy,
Catching up on the pages I missed, came to this on p3:
Never forget that the Messiah had to come and die as a man, beforeGod could have instilled faith in their hearts right from the beginning and saved Himself a lot of time and effort....
And no one has tackled the sticky question of if God has predestined everything, including Hitler... then isnt God responsible for millions upon millions of murders?
[color=0000FF]Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.[/color]
Yes, God [i][b]is[i]son of the father
There is no evil in God, but when 'our old man' was crucified with Him, the serpent was slain.
[color=0000FF]Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; [u]that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death
2 Timothy 1
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called [i]us
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of [u]our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death
11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. [/color]
There are many times in Scripture where "world" does not mean "every man, woman, and child ever created". If one wanted to take that view, I suppose it would be logical to assume that since God is love, and He loves the world and all that is in the world, then He must love satan too!
So you're saying "world" doesnt actually mean "world"?
Krispy
Katy... I'm honestly trying to understand Calvinism, and learn and find the truth. You're post didnt help any. If thats all you have to add to the conversation, please dont.
Krispy
Krispy, I apoligize, but lets do look at scripture that teaches scripture to get a correct inderstanding of what God is saying.
By David Cloud:
In each of these cases, the Calvinist applies human logic to the issue rather than a clear statement from Scripture and the Scriptures he uses to support his doctrine do no such thing. He thus strains at gnats while swallowing hundreds of clear Scriptures that overthrow his doctrine.
CALVIN’S CAMELS
Following are just a few of the camels that John Calvin swallowed when he followed Augustine, that “Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church,” into the error of “sovereign election” and when he reasoned that God would not be sovereign if man could reject Him and if salvation could be accepted or rejected by the sinner.
I realize that a staunch Calvinist has an answer for everything. He can flee immediately into his stronghold of making clever and intricate man-made distinctions between electing grace and common grace, between degrees of the love of God, between desiderative vs. decretive will and antecedent hypothetical will, you name it. I am not writing the article for such a person. I am writing it for the simple believer who loves God’s Word and who has not been overawed by intellectual brilliance and brainwashed by human theology.
GOD CAN BE LIMITED -- “Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel” (Psalm 78:41).
According to Calvinism, if man can resist God or thwart His purposes then God is no longer a Sovereign God and man must be Sovereign. Thus they claim that it is impossible that man could accept or reject God’s salvation. But the fact is that the Bible says man does resist and reject God on every hand, and this has been going on since the earliest days of his history. Adam rejected God’s Word. Cain rejected it. Noah’s generation rejected it. The men gathered at the Tower of Babel rejected it. When the Psalmist recounts the experience of Israel in the wilderness, he emphasizes the fact that Israel did not do God’s will. He describes them as “a stubborn and rebellious generation” (Psa. 78:8) who “refused to walk in his law” (Psa. 78:10). He then makes this amazing statement: “they limited the Holy One of Israel” (Psa. 78:41). According to Calvinist thinking, this is not possible and if it were possible it would mean that God is not sovereign, but it is obvious that Calvinism is wrong on both counts. For God to make man in His own image with a will and an ability to make real choices and for God to allow man to exercise his will even in the matter of receiving salvation does not make God any less sovereign than had He created a robot. And it will not do to allow that man can resist God in some things but not in the matter salvation. If man can resist and reject and limit God in any way and God can still be God, then God can still be God if He offers salvation to all and some receive it and some reject it, as the Bible so plainly says. “And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Rev. 22:17).
JESUS WOULD BUT ISRAEL WOULD NOT -- “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Mat. 23:37).
Here we see that it was the will and desire of the Son of God to save Israel throughout her history and He sent His prophets to her, but He was refused. Christ would; Israel would not. Knowing that Christ is God, this teaches us that God’s will can be thwarted by man’s will?
Arthur Pink says, “But did those tears make manifest a disappointed God? Nay, verily. Instead, they displayed a perfect Man” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 199).
Thus, according to the Calvinist, Jesus’ statement in Matt. 23:37 does not teach that God’s will was ever thwarted by man’s will but merely expresses the human side of Jesus’ compassionate nature. According to Calvin, God cannot be disappointed, because that would means He is not sovereign (according to Calvin’s own predetermined definition), but this flies in the face of the Scriptures in literally thousands of places.
To say that Jesus was speaking in Matthew 23:37 as man but not as God is both ridiculous and heretical. Jesus told His disciplines, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (Jn. 14:9). In Matt. 23:37 Jesus is speaking as the eternal Son of God, yea, as Jehovah God, as the very same God who had sent the prophets to Israel throughout her rebellious career and who had desired to give her peace, but THEY WOULD NOT.
GOD STRETCHED FORTH HIS HANDS TO ISRAEL BUT ISRAEL REJECTED HIM -- “But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people” (Rom. 10:21). “I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts” (Isaiah 65:2).
Here is the same type of statement that Jesus Himself made in Matt. 23:37. We see that God wanted to save Israel and continually reached out to them, but God’s message and salvation were resisted and rejected.
THE JEWS RESISTED THE HOLY SPIRIT -- “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye” (Acts 7:51).
Stephen charged his Jewish persecutors with resisting the Holy Spirit. Here again we see that the Holy Spirit strives with men and that they can willfully resist Him. The Calvinist answer this by claiming that the “bondage of the will” works only one way, meaning that the unsaved can reject the truth but they cannot, on the other hand, receive the truth. According to this doctrine, only the elect are given the ability to believe the gospel while the non-elect are left in their Totally Depraved condition with their will in bondage and unable to believe. The Bible nowhere teaches this. Instead, from the beginning to the end of the Bible, from Cain to those who follow the antichrist, men are called by God and are expected to respond and obviously are able to respond and are condemned when they do not. That some do and some do not respond to the light that God gives is not because only some are pre-ordained to respond.
THE JEWS BROUGHT THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THEMSELVES -- “For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost” (1 Thess. 2:14-16).
According to this passage, the Jews that killed the Lord Jesus and persecuted the early believers were not sovereignly reprobated to that evil work. They filled up their sins and brought God’s wrath upon them by their own actions.
Note, too, that Paul says the Jews forbade the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles “that they might be saved.” Thus we see that the Gentiles to whom the gospel would otherwise have been preached could have been saved through that preaching.
THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD CAN COUNT IT AN UNHOLY THING AND DESPISE THE SPIRIT OF GOD -- “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:29).
Either this verse means that a saved person can lose his salvation, or it means that a person can come close to being saved without actually being regenerated and can then turn away finally from salvation by rejecting the efficacy of the blood and the gospel of grace. We believe that it teaches the latter. In our church planting ministry we have seen many Hindus and Buddhists attend church services and purchase Bibles and look eagerly into the things of Christ and even desire to be baptized and publicly testify that they believed the gospel only to finally turn away and to return to human religion and idolatry and to renounce the blood of Christ and salvation by grace. These were not sanctified in the sense of salvation but they were sanctified in the sense of having been enlightened and convicted by the Spirit and in the sense of having professed to believe in the covenant or gospel of grace.
This verse contradicts the Calvinist doctrines of Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace. At the verse least this verses teaches that the blood of Christ was available to them for salvation but that they rejected it.
JESUS REBUKED THE CITIES OF ISRAEL BECAUSE THEY DID NOT REPENT -- “Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee” (Matt. 11:20-24).
Jesus did not deal with men on the basis of sovereign election and sovereign reprobation. He dealt with them on the basis of human responsibility to respond to the divine call of repentance. Christ teaches here that men not only are responsible to repent but they can repent if they will. If they could not have repented, why are they upbraided as if they could have repented? If some men cannot repent, why are all men commanded to repent (Acts 17:30)?
JESUS TAUGHT US TO PRAY THAT GOD’S WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN -- “And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth” (Lk. 11:2).
This means, of course, that God’s will is not currently done on earth as it is in heaven, which means that God’s sovereignty does not mean that His will is always done. Man can thwart God’s will -- not ultimately as far as His eternal plan goes, but in many ways and in many times.
GOD INVITES ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO BE SAVED -- “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else” (Isa. 45:22).
If words many anything, this universal divine invitation means that God earnestly desires to save all men and all men can be saved, and this was written during the Old Testament dispensation before the coming of Christ.
GOD INVITES ALL WHO ARE THIRSTY TO COME AND DRINK FREELY -- “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David” (Isaiah 55:1-3).
As in all other places where a general invitation is given to men to be saved, the Calvinist attempts to limit this passage to the elect, but it is impossible to do so. This particular invitation is to “every one that thirsteth.” The invitation is extended not merely by the God of Israel but by the God of the universe, the God that “made the earth, and created man upon it” (Isa. 45:12), the same God who said in a previous verse, “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else” (Isa. 45:22).
God promises to make an everlasting covenant with those who come to Him and promises to give such a one “the sure mercies of David.” That does not limit the invitation to Israel only. God’s covenant with David is fulfilled in his greater Son, the Messiah, and all who are saved participate in that covenant in one way or the other (Acts 13:34-38).
GOD LOVES THE WORLD AND GAVE HIS SON SO THAT WHOSOEVER WILL MIGHT BE SAVED -- “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:14-18).
Arthur Pink is typical in claiming that the world in this passage “does not mean the whole human family” but that is “is used in a general way” and it “must, in the final analysis, refer to the world of God’s people” (The Sovereignty of God, pp. 203, 204).
To the contrary, we know that the “world” in John 3:16 here means all men.
First, the universality of this passage is clear from the term “whosoever,” which is used twice in the context. If the term “world” is made to mean anything other than the whole world of men, the term “whosoever” becomes meaningless. If “whosoever” does not mean “whosoever,” Bible words have no certain meaning and everything is thrown into confusion. The Calvinist says that only those who are sovereignly elected will believe, but the Bible says whosoever believes will be saved and is therefore elected.
Second, the universality of the “world” in this passage is clear from the typology that is used. The brass serpent that was raised up by Moses in the wilderness was sufficient for the salvation of all of the Jews who had been bitten by the snakes, but only those who looked upon it in faith were saved. Likewise, the salvation that Jesus purchased on Calvary is sufficient to save every sinner, but only those who believe are saved.
WHOSOEVER WILL IS INVITED TO COME -- “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Rev. 22:17).
If this verse means what it says, it refutes three of Calvin’s doctrines: that salvation is only for those sovereignly pre-elected, that God does not effectually offer salvation to all, and that the sinner cannot receive salvation.
GOD WILL SAVE ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM -- “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, WHOSOEVER believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto ALL that call upon him. For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10:8-13).
This is another passage that plainly teaches that salvation is for all and whosoever shall call. The Calvinist protests that sinners who are Totally Depraved cannot call upon the Lord and therefore only those who are sovereignly elected and called and given “the gift of faith” will call upon the Lord. This is to read one’s theology into the Scripture. If the Calvinist doctrines of sovereign election and the bondage of the will and sovereign calling are correct, this passage doesn’t actually mean what it says, and a blessed and glorious universal invitation of salvation to sinners is turned into something that is reserved solely for a pre-selected group of sinners.
As for faith, this passage says that it is nigh to every sinner. Sinners can believe in their hearts upon Christ. They can confess Christ with their mouths. Though they are totally unrighteous and dead in trespasses and sins, this does not mean that they cannot believe the gospel.
WHOSOEVER BELIEVES ON CHRIST OR CALLS UPON HIS NAME SHALL BE SAVED --
“I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness” (Jn. 12:46).
“And it shall come to pass, that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Acts 2:21).
The Bible repeatedly says that salvation is for “whosoever” and a typical Bible-believing non-theologian would conclude from this that any and every sinner today is both invited to come to Christ and by God’s grace CAN come to Christ. To treat the “whosoever shalls” of the New Testament as Calvin did, though, is to render them of no effect. According to Calvin, “whosoever” does not really mean whosoever; it means “whosoever of the elect.” Even when Calvin claims, out of one side of his mouth (such as in his commentary on John 3:16), that he agrees that salvation is actually offered to “whosoever will,” he negates it out of the other side by claiming that it is obvious that the non-elect “will not,” so we in a practical sense are back to the “whosoever of the elect.”
JESUS INVITED ALL WHO ARE THIRSTY TO COME AND DRINK -- “In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” (John 7:37-38).
This is the same type of invitation that we have seen in many other passages. It is a “whosoever” invitation. Jesus graciously invites all sinners who recognize their need for salvation to come to Him for satisfaction. Further, the Holy Spirit has come into the world to show men their need of Christ (Jn. 16:8). The only requirement that Jesus states is that one be thirsty for the living water that only God can provide and that he come to Jesus alone for that water and not to any other. Salvation is likened to drinking water. What a simple thing that is!
JESUS INVITED ALL THAT LABOUR AND ARE HEAVY LADEN TO COME TO HIM FOR REST -- “Come unto me, ALL ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matt. 11:28-30).
A broader invitation to salvation could not be given. Any person that labours and is heavy laden is invited to come to Jesus for rest. This is not an invitation that can somehow be limited to a select number of individuals that was sovereignly predetermined. Jesus’ compassion extends to all sinners and it is truly His heart’s desire to save all of them.
AS MANY AS RECEIVE JESUS BECOME SONS OF GOD -- “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:10-13).
Jesus was rejected by His own people, the Jewish nation. This fact alone demonstrates that God can be rejected by men. But as many as receive Jesus by believing on His name are given power to become the sons of God. No limitation is given. Salvation is a matter of “AS MANY AS” and “WHOSOEVER.” Notice that faith precedes and is the cause of becoming a son of God. It is not that men are born again to faith, as Calvin taught, but that through faith men are born again. Note, too, that receiving Christ by believing on Him cannot be defined as “the will of man.” The Calvinist argues that if the sinner could believe on Christ it would mean that salvation is of the will of man, but this passage refutes such human logic. We are told plainly in John 1:13 that the new birth is not “of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,” but are told just as plainly that the new birth is by receiving Christ through faith in the previous verses. What verse 13 means is that the new birth is not a product of the human will. Man cannot work up the new birth; he cannot will it to happen. It is a miracle of grace that Christ works in the life of the sinner that believes.
GOD HAS ORDAINED THAT THE GOSPEL BE PREACHED TO EVERY INDIVIDUAL AND THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVE BE SAVED -- “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:15-16).
If only the elect can be saved, why does God command that the gospel of “whosoever will” salvation be preached to every sinner? Is God mocking the non-elect by proclaiming to them that He gave His only begotten Son that “whosoever believeth in him should not perish” and that “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but that he that believeth not shall be damned”? Some Calvinists divide themselves into two broad categories called “hyper” and “non-hyper” (though the “hyper” do not admit to being hyper but profess themselves to be the genuine Calvinists). The non-hyper-Calvinist claims that God does truly love all men and that the “all” of John 3:16 is truly “all,” which sounds encouraging except that out of the other side of the mouth he says that God only saves the elect and that there is no possibility for the non-elect to be saved and that God’s “love” for the non-elect is admittedly different from His love for the elect. Surely the non-elect, hearing such an argument, would be forced to say, “What kind of strange love is this? Is God mocking me? Is God playing with me as a cat with a mouse? The Bible promises that “whosoever will should not perish, but the Calvinist tells me that only if I am of the elect will I be sovereignly regenerated and given “the gift of faith” and if I am not of the elect I am so dead in my trespasses and sins that there is nothing I can do to be saved, that I cannot even believe on Christ, and that any illumination that God gives me is not effective for salvation. What love is this?” Of course, the Calvinist will instantly reply, “Who art thou that repliest against God! God is God and He can do as He pretty well pleases.” Of course He can do as He pleases, but this issue of whether God genuinely wants all men to be saved and whether it is possible for them to be saved has the most serious and eternal consequences, and to ask the question as to what constitutes God’s love is neither unreasonable nor unscriptural.
GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH -- “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).
Why does the Lord wait to establish His kingdom; why has Christ not returned? This verse teaches us that God is waiting for men to be saved, because it is not His sovereign will that any should perish. Since many will perish and since all will not come to repentance, as we know from other Scriptures, then it is obvious that God’s will can be resisted and thwarted and rejected by man. It is obvious that the sovereign God created man in such a way that this could be possible, but of course this does not mean that God has ceased to be God. It is Calvinism that defines divine sovereignty as irresistibility. The Bible upholds no such definition.
The Calvinist interprets this verse to mean that God is not willing that any of the elect perish. Arthur Pink says, ‘The ‘any’ that God is not willing should perish, are the ‘usward’ to whom God is ‘longsuffering’, the ‘beloved’ of the previous verses” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 207).
Our reply to this is, first of all, if this were the only verse that said that God is not willing that any should perish, we would be able to accept the Calvinist interpretation, but it is not. Isa. 45:22 and Matt. 11:28 and John 3:16 and John 6:40 and Rom. 11:23 and 1 Tim. 1:15-16 and 1 Tim. 2:3-4 and Rev. 22:17 are just some of the Scriptures that say that God wants to save all men.
Thus it is reasonable and Scriptural to believe that the “usward” in 2 Pet. 3:9 is mankind in general as opposed to “the elect” only.
Further, if 2 Peter 3:9 means merely that God is not willing that any of the elect should perish it uses strange language in light of the Calvinist doctrines of sovereign election and irresistible calling. To say that God is not willing that any should perish is to assume that some can perish.
GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED -- “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
What does this verse mean? There is no reason to believe that it means anything other than exactly what it says. It is God’s sovereign will and desire that all men be saved. Obviously, then, God’s will is not always done and God has ordained that man can thwart His will, because it is clear from other Scriptures that not all men will be saved. Of course, the Calvinist has all sorts of means by which he reasons away the clear teaching of 2 Pet. 3:9 and 1 Tim. 2:3-4, but only a committed Calvinist would interpret Scripture in such a manner. For example, some Calvinists claim that God has two types of wills, “desiderative and decretive.” Though He does desire all men to be saved, He has only decreed that the elect be saved. Thus, when 2 Pet. 3:9 and 1 Tim. 2:3-4 say that God is not willing that any should perish and that He will have all men to be saved, this is merely His “desiderative” will, whereas only those elect sinners who fall under the category of His “decretive” will can actually be saved because they are the only ones who are sovereignly regenerated and given the “gift of faith.” When I called told one Calvinist professor that this is mere “mumbo jumbo,” he was very offended, but I don’t see what else it can rightly be called. Of course, this stalwart attempt to reconcile 1 Tim. 3:3-4 and 2 Pet. 3:9 with Calvinism actually creates more problems than it solves, because it admits that God’s desiderative will is not accomplished. Thus, God’s will can indeed be thwarted by man--not His decretive will, mind you, but His desiderative will--which would mean that God has a will that is not sovereign.
JESUS CAME INTO THE WORLD TO SAVE SINNERS -- “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting” (1 Tim. 1:15-16).
Calvinism can be read into this passage, as it can be read into any passage (so that “sinners” can become the elect only), but if we take the words of these verses at face value they mean that Jesus came to save sinners in general as opposed to just a pre-selected group and that God’s salvation of Paul, the chief of sinners, is an encouragement to any sinner to come to Him for salvation. Any sinner can find encouragement from this passage that he can believe on Christ for salvation, because if God would save Paul He will save anyone.
GOD WOULD HAVE MERCY UPON ALL -- “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all” (Rom. 11:32).
If the “all” of the first half of this verse means all men, as it obviously does, then it is impossible to interpret the latter half of the verse in any other sense. The same God who has concluded all men in unbelief desires to have mercy upon all men through Jesus Christ. That is His sovereign and express will.
JESUS MADE PROPITIATION NOT FOR BELIEVERS ONLY BUT FOR WHOLE WORLD -- “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 Jn. 2:2).
This passage is addressed to “my little children” and those who “have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 Jn. 2:1). Obviously it is addressed, then, to the saved or to those who elsewhere are called “the elect” (Col. 2:12; 2 Tim. 2:10). Therefore, when 1 John 2:2 says Christ “is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world,” the Bible is obviously and plainly stating that Christ did not die to make satisfaction for the sins of the elect only. The “whole world” means the whole world!
JESUS GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL -- “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Tim. 2:6).
The “all” must be defined in context, and in the context it refers to all men. See 1 Tim. 2:3-5 -- “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” That Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all men demonstrates clearly that His atonement was not limited to the elect and that all men can be saved.
CHRIST RECONCILED THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF AND HAS COMMITTED TO BELIEVERS THE WORD OF RECONCILIATION -- “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:18-19).
These verses encapsulate the doctrine of atonement as it relates to the world. In verse 18 we see that believers are reconciled to God by Jesus Christ, but in verse 19 we see that God intends for the reconciliation process to extend to the entire world. The fact that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them” is an obvious teaching of Scripture, but it does not mean, as the Calvinist argues, that all men are automatically saved. (Arthur Pink in The Sovereignty of God, p. 62, argues from human logic after this fashion: “If it was offered for all mankind then the debt incurred by every man has been cancelled.”). The universality of Christ’s atonement does not mean that all men are automatically saved but that all men CAN be saved because the work of Christ on the cross is sufficient to save them, but they must receive the word of reconciliation, which, of course, is the gospel. We see in this passage also that the believers are God’s instruments for preaching the “word of reconciliation” to the world. When one sinner believers on Christ he, in turn, is to preach the gospel of reconciliation to others. Since the gospel is to be preached to every person and God is not willing that any should perish, it is obvious that every person has the possibility to be saved through believing it (Mk. 16:15-16; 2 Pet. 3:9).
JESUS BOUGHT THE UNSAVED FALSE TEACHERS WHO TEACH DAMNABLE DOCTRINES AND DENY CHRIST -- “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction” (2 Pet. 2:1).
If the Lord bought these unsaved false teachers, and the Bible plainly says that He did, then the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement falls to the ground.
JESUS TASTED DEATH FOR EVERY MAN -- “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man” (Heb. 2:9).
Again, it is clear in this Scripture that Jesus died to make atonement for every man and not just for the elect.
GOD ELECTS ACCORDING TO HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE -- “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied” (1 Pet. 1:2).
The standard Calvinist position on foreknowledge is basically to do away with it by making it the same as fore will, doing away completely with the possibility that God’s election could have anything to do with what He foresees. But the word that Peter uses for “foreknowledge” is a word that means simply that God foreknew what would happen. It is the Greek word “prognosis,” which is a word still used commonly in English. When a doctor gives the prognosis of a disease, he describes the normal progression of the disease. He basically is able to tell the future because he knows beforehand what will happen. The doctrine of “foreknowledge,” if not redefined by Calvinism, goes a long way, though not all of the way, toward explaining the mystery of how God could elect but man could choose. There is more to election than foreknowledge, but the fact remains that God’s Word teaches us that foreknowledge is involved and it cannot be redefined to mean “foreordination.”
In his attempt to redefine “foreknowledge” and to mold it into “foreordination,” the Calvinist uses Acts 2:23, which says that Jesus was crucified “by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.” The Calvinist claims that determinate counsel and foreknowledge is the same thing, but it is evident that these are, in fact, two different things. The Calvinist points out that “determinate counsel” precedes “foreknowledge,” but what he fails to observe is the “and.” Acts 2:23 does not say that Jesus was crucified “by the determinate counsel which is the foreknowledge of God”; it says that Jesus was crucified “by the determinate counsel AND foreknowledge of God.” That God elects according to His foreknowledge does not mean that He elects solely according to His determinate counsel, and this fact does not make God any less God.
JESUS WARNED MEN TO HEAR HIS WORD PROPERLY OR BE JUDGED -- “Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have” (Lk. 8:18).
Jesus put the responsibility for hearing His Word upon the shoulders of His listeners. If they would hear and make the effort to seek God and understand, they would be given more. If they would not, they would be judged. There is no sovereign election here.
JESUS TOLD THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS THAT THEY WOULD NOT COME TO HIM THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE LIFE -- “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40).
He did not say they could not come because of their “total depravity”; He said they would not come. It was a matter of their own wills. He did not say they were not sovereignly elected or that they were foreordained to condemnation. He rebuked them because they were given light and had rejected it. This verse and countless others teaches that the sinner has a will that he can exercise contrary to God, that God’s will is not “sovereign” in the sense that it cannot be opposed.
FAITH COMES FROM MAN’S HEART -- “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” (Luke 8:11-15).
The Parable of the Sower teaches us that faith is something that sinners can exercise and that the difference between men’s hearts and response to the gospel is not that of sovereign election but is a matter of their own wills. The Lord Jesus tells us that the Word of God falls upon four different types of human hearts. All men are sinners, but all sinners do not respond to the Word of God in the same manner.
The first type of sinner hears the Word of God but the devil comes and takes it out of the heart “lest they should believe and be saved.” This is explained in Matt. 13:19 -- “When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, AND UNDERSTANDETH IT NOT, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart.” The reason why the first type of person does not believe is because he doesn’t make the effort to understand the gospel and thus the devil is able to snatch the Word of God away. This happens on every hand. The gospel is preached to sinners indiscriminately and many of them take no notice of it and have no interest even in hearing more about Jesus Christ. They are not interested enough even to read a gospel pamphlet or to attend a gospel service or an evangelistic Bible study. Thus the devil comes “immediately and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts” (Mk. 4:15).
The second type of sinner hears the Word of God with joy but falls away “in time of temptation” because the Word of God was not received deeply into the heart and life and therefore is easily plucked out. Many sinners fall into this category. They express interest in the gospel; they want to learn more; they are excited about the things of Jesus Christ. But their understanding and “faith” is shallow. They don’t make the effort to come to full and proper understanding of the gospel and they are not truly regenerated and soon they fall away because of trouble that they experience from friends and relatives or they become offended at something they do not agree with. Again, this is not said to be the result of sovereign reprobation but is something that is the responsibility of the sinner himself.
The third type of sinner hears the Word of God but it is chocked out of his heart and life by the “cares and riches and pleasures of this life.” Mark’s Gospel adds it is “the lusts of other things entering in” that choke the word so that it is unfruitful (Mk. 4:23). This happens often when the gospel is preached. Many sinners who show an interest in the gospel and who attend church services and even profess faith in Christ fall away because they are not serious enough about spiritual matters and they allow many other things to choke the Word of God out of their hearts and lives. Again, there is not even a hint here that this is the product of sovereign reprobation. It is said to be something that occurs because of the sinner’s own response and actions to the gospel.
The fourth type of sinner hears the Word of God and believes it and keeps it and brings forth fruit with patience. This is the only one of the four types of sinners that truly gets saved.
JESUS WAS AMAZED AT THE CENTURION’S FAITH -- “When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel” (Luke 7:9).
Calvinism claims that faith is given to men sovereignly by God as part of the package of sovereign grace in sovereign election. Apparently the Lord Jesus did not hold to this doctrine, because He marvelled at the centurion’s faith and commended this faith to the Jews. If faith is the gift of God, what is there to marvel at? Why would Jesus praise the man’s “great faith” if it were merely something that God had sovereignly given him?
FAITH IS NOT A WORK -- “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).
This verse teaches that, contrary to Calvinism, faith is not a work. Faith is the means whereby the sinner receives the free gift of salvation that was purchased for him by Christ. Faith is the “hand which reaches out to accept God’s gift.” Contrary to Calvinist reasoning, to accept a gift is not a work and is nothing to glory in. A gift is 100% from the one who purchases and offers it. The recipient has nothing to glory in by receiving it.
MEN PERISH BECAUSE THEY DO NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH -- “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thess. 2:10-12).
These sinners who follow the antichrist will be damned but not because they are not sovereignly elected and not because they are sovereignly reprobate but because of their personal decision in regard to the truth. They could receive the truth and be saved but they reject it. Words could not be plainer.
THE BELIEVER MUST MAKE HIS CALLING AND ELECTION SURE -- “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall” (2 Peter 1:10).
Regardless of whether this verse is interpreted as applying to the saved or to the almost saved, the question for the Calvinist is, “How can sovereign calling and election be made sure by man?” Calvinism teaches that election for salvation is determined solely by God and that He imparts it irresistibly to the sinner through sovereign regeneration and “the gift of faith.” What, then, does this verse mean?
THE PREACHER CAN GAIN MORE SOULS FOR CHRIST BY HOW HE CONDUCTS HIS LIFE AND MINISTRY -- “For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. ... To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some” (1 Cor. 9:19, 22).
Paul sacrificed and went to great efforts so that more men would be saved. If election is sovereignly fore-determined and irresistibly given, this makes no sense. How could Paul’s actions “gain more”? How could his actions “save some”?
PAUL PERSUADED MEN -- “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences” (2 Cor. 5:11).
If Paul were a Calvinist, he would not have written this because he would know that the elect don’t need persuading and the non-elect can’t be persuaded! The sinner is so dead in his sins that apart from regeneration and “the gift of faith” he couldn’t possibly understand and respond to human persuasion.
SALVATION CAN BE NEGLECTED -- “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him” (Heb. 2:3).
This exhortation makes no sense in light of Calvinist doctrine. If election is as the Calvinist teaches and it is a matter of an individual being sovereignly chosen by God, how could the elect neglect salvation and how could the non-elect do anything other than neglect salvation?
PROFESSING CHRISTIANS ARE EXHORTED NOT TO HAVE AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF AND NOT TO DEPART FROM THE LIVING GOD -- “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end” (Heb. 3:12-14).
If the elect are predetermined “sovereignly” and if election has nothing whatsoever to do with the sinner himself as to accepting or rejecting, believing or disbelieving, and if he is irresistibly drawn and sovereignly kept so that he surely perseveres, what could this exhortation possibly mean? How could the sovereignly elected, irresistibly drawn elect depart from God, and how could the non-elect do anything other than depart from God?
WE MUST LABOUR TO ENTER INTO GOD’S REST -- “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief” (Heb. 4:9-11).
How could this exhortation possibly apply to TULIP type election? This passage says the rest of salvation is something that every person must seek to enter into and all are urged to do so, but the doctrine of “sovereign” election teaches us that those elected to God’s rest are predetermined solely by God and they have no choice in the matter and will assuredly enter into His rest.
JESUS ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN THAT COMES INTO THE WORLD -- “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (John 1:9).
The Bible teaches that men are in darkness, dead in trespasses and sins, but the Bible plainly teaches that God gives light to every single man that comes into the world. There is no other way to understand the meaning of these words. There is no way to apply this only to the elect. The fact is that God draws men to the light and if they respond He gives them more light. That is what we see in the case of Cornelius in Acts 10. The Bible does not say here that the light that God gives to some is more effectual than that which He gives to others. It simply says that He enlightens every single man.
THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL CONVICT THE WORLD -- “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged” (John 16:8-11).
The Calvinist claims that “it is not the present mission of the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin” and that “the Holy Spirit is sovereign in His operations and His mission is confined to God’s elect” (Pink, The Sovereignty of God, pp. 75, 77). In fact, the Lord Jesus plainly and unequivocally teaches in John 16 that the Holy Spirit will indeed convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. The Holy Spirit has a special work in this age both toward the unbeliever and toward the believer. There is no good reason to believe that “the world” in this passage is “the elect.” Consider what would happen if we were to change “the world” to “the elect.” The passage would then read: “And when he is come, he will reprove the elect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because the elect believe not on me...” But, of course, the elect do believe on Jesus. Further, the Calvinist teaches that the elect are saved by regeneration rather than by conviction. The truth of the matter is that this important passage describes how the unsaved, which are spiritually dead and blind, are brought to repentance and faith. It is by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. That not all believe is not because only some are pre-elected to believe but because God made man with the ability to resist him and according to the Scripture he has been exercising that ability since the Garden of Eden.
JESUS WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIM -- “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:32-33).
Here the Lord Jesus promised through His crucifixion to draw all men unto Him. Thus we see that He died to make it possible for all men to be saved and that He actively draws all men to Himself toward that end. That all men are not saved is not the fault of Jesus nor is it His intention. All are enlightened and all are drawn. What Jesus said about Israel is true for all men: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!” (Mat. 23:37).
These are only a few of Calvin’s camels.
My friends, don’t swallow these great camels of God’s Word. Scriptures are not there to be swallowed or forced into a preconceived theological mold but to be accepted and believed. Whatever divine election means, and it is certainly an important and oft-taught doctrine of the Word of God, it cannot mean what Calvinism concludes because to accept that position requires one to strain at gnats and swallow camels and Jesus forcefully condemned this practice.
So you're saying "world" doesnt actually mean "world"?
Yes. It depends much on the context of the passage, and also if it jives with the rest of Scripture's teaching.
Katy, I accept your apology. Thank you for adding the article by David Cloud. I've actually had several email correspondances with him on different topics. I love the man.
One thing I want to do tho is look at BOTH sides of the issue, not just read one side of it.
First and formost tho my journey thru this needs to be based on scripture, as you pointed out.
Krispy
Hi Krispy,
[A) All the sins of all the people.
From the time of Adam and Eve to this present day, man has been given a chance to choose. These choices applied to all whosoever will.
Genesis 2:16-17
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: [17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Deut. 28:1-2
And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: [2] And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.
Deut. 28:15
But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
The Father has given to every man the ability to choose and thus it is up to him to choose salvation or damnation.
Mark 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Rom 12:3 For1063 I say,3004 through1223 the3588 grace5485 given1325 unto me,3427 to every man3956 that is5607 among1722 you,5213 not3361 to think of himself more highly than5252, 3844, 3739 he ought1163 to think;5426 but235 to think5426 soberly,4993 according as5613 God2316 hath dealt3307 to every man1538 the measure3358 of faith.4102
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Eph 2:8 For1063 by grace5485 are2075 ye saved4982 through1223 faith;4102 and2532 that5124 not3756 of1537 yourselves:5216 it is the3588 gift1435 of God:2316
Notice, the same grace and faith in both verses, also notice the difference in Rom. 12:3 for the words ‘to every man’.
Rom 12:3 For1063 I say,3004 through1223 the3588 grace5485 given1325 unto me,3427 to every man3956 that is5607 among1722 you,5213 not3361 to think of himself more highly than5252, 3844, 3739 he ought1163 to think;5426 but235 to think5426 soberly,4993 according as5613 God2316 hath dealt3307 to every man1538 the measure3358 of faith.4102
πᾶς
to every man3956
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
ἕκαστος
to every man1538
hekastos
hek'-as-tos
As if a superlative of ἕκας hekas (afar); each or every: - any, both, each (one), every (man, one, woman), particularly.
By ‘grace’ everyone has been given ‘the measure of faith’ it is up to everyone what they do with it.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
In His Love
pastorfrin
Katy, David Cloud has repeatedly been taken to task, and proven wrong in his supposed anti-Calvinist rants.
Here it is a good example of this in regard to the article you posted-[url=http://www.corkfpc.com/camels.html]David Cloud Refutation
GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED -- “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
The Bible is clear, Jesus specifically in his prayer-that Judas is lost, and lost eternally-so if "all" in 1 Tim 2:3-4 means "ALL"-then this would have to even include him, the anti-christ, the false prophet, and ALL the people in hell right now.
By ‘grace’ everyone has been given ‘the measure of faith’ it is up to everyone what they do with it.
This is a mis-quotation of Romans 12:3 used to try to say that all men have faith. Here is the verse-
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Who are the men Paul is speaking of here? Christians of course, and that is why he goes on in the next verses-
Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Romans 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Romans 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Every member of the church has been given faith by God, not every man in the world.
Misapplication of Scripture has led to most of the mistakes in dealing with these issues. One cannot apply to the world Scriptures only meant for the Church, you will end up in confusion.
David Cloud has repeatedly been taken to task, and proven wrong in his supposed anti-Calvinist rants.
I dont want to get off the topic here, but David Cloud is a good man, and tho challenged on this (and many other topics) I would hardly say he has been "proven wrong". The only reason to say that is because you support whoever it was who challenged him... and you cant see how your guy could ever be wrong... because you agree with him.
So lets not get into a debate about what teacher prooved another teacher wrong. I just want to know from y'all how you view this issue. Not what big name theologian supports your point of view.
Krispy
The Bible is clear, Jesus specifically in his prayer-that Judas is lost, and lost eternally-so if "all" in 1 Tim 2:3-4 means "ALL"-then this would have to even include him, the anti-christ, the false prophet, and ALL the people in hell right now.
So you're saying God didnt grieve over the decisions that Judas made? Jesus wasnt hurt by Judas' actions? Why would they be... they made him do it.
How cruel is that? Create a human being just to destroy his life, and then throw him into a pit of fire forever? Sounds like a hellish nightmare to me.
Not sure I want to serve a God like that. Scripture says God is love. Is that love you're describing?
No, I believe ALL means ALL... even Judas, the anti-Christ, etc. But they have chosen to reject Him. God has forknowledge of this, but does He want this or make this happen? Not sure.
If I tell my kids "you stick your tongue into that outlet you'll get fried!" ... and they do it, and what I said happened... does that mean I predestined that to happen? No, but I did have forknowledge that it would.
Krispy
Krispy, I actually was not being sarcastic, but quite serious about changing the definitions of words.
As one word "WORLD" is being tossed around here.
I had asked Roaringlamb on another post exactly like this concerning Faith.
Why would the NT Saints need help in being regenerated to have faith when no such regeneration was needed in the OT. Has the meaning of Faith changed from old to new? ( or rather has calvinism changed the meaning of faith since OT, and if so where did this change come...what scriptures.
These are extremely serious questions that no one wants to give an answer to.
We are saved by grace through faith....so the foundation of faith is where to target.
Why in the NT does one have to be regenerated...Born Again first to be able to have faith..
Hebrews 11 tell us faith in the OT was as much in the coming redeemer as is in the New. There is only one faith that can save, faith in Jesus Christ.
Abel's sacrifice based on the promise of the redeemer of Genesis 3:15 was and is the same substance of faith we place in Jesus Christ crucified and risen.
Abel was not regenerated first to have faith.
Love in Christ
Katy
No brother, Cloud generalizes and makes statements about what Calvinists believe that are not true. Whether he is purposely doing this, or doing so because he does not understand Calvinism I do not know. I hope the latter.
Either way, you can never persuade people if you offer wrong ideas about what they do or do not believe.
I'm sure Cloud is a wonderful brother in the Lord, and that is not up for debate here at all.
Plus if you can vouch for him then he must be a ok ;-)
KrispyKrittr wrote:The Bible is clear, Jesus specifically in his prayer-that Judas is lost, and lost eternally-so if "all" in 1 Tim 2:3-4 means "ALL"-then this would have to even include him, the anti-christ, the false prophet, and ALL the people in hell right now.
So you're saying God didnt grieve over the decisions that Judas made? Jesus wasnt hurt by Judas' actions? Why would they be... they made him do it.
How cruel is that? Create a human being just to destroy his life, and then throw him into a pit of fire forever? Sounds like a hellish nightmare to me.
Not sure I want to serve a God like that. Scripture says God is love. Is that love you're describing?
No, I believe ALL means ALL... even Judas, the anti-Christ, etc. But they have chosen to reject Him. God has forknowledge of this, but does He want this or make this happen? Not sure.
If I tell my kids "you stick your tongue into that outlet you'll get fried!" ... and they do it, and what I said happened... does that mean I predestined that to happen? No, but I did have forknowledge that it would.
Krispy
So you are saying that at some point even the anti-christ had the CHANCE to be saved? (Though the Bible never teaches anywhere that I am aware of that the anti-christ REJECTED salvation)
Confusion leads to spiritual paralysis and an inability to act or function leading to panic attacks, depression and death.
I don’t know what I believe I know Whom I believe
Did those two men have any converts or were they authors of confusion?
I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Hello Patrick (roaringlamb),
There are a lot of other verses about seeing in the New Testament, much more than Isaiah's prophecy although it also was true of course.
[color=0000FF]John 6
36 But I said unto you, That [u]ye also have seen me, [b]and believe not
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: [u]whosoever sinneth hath not seen him[b]neither known him
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [i]are[i]yet
Mark 5:6
But when he [Legion} [u]saw Jesus
John 12:21
The same [Greeks] came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, [u]we would see Jesus
Luke 19: Zaccheus
John 21:7
Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, 'It is the Lord'. Now when Simon Peter [u]heard that it was the Lord[i]his[i]unto him
2 Corinthians 3 [i]Tyndale
16 Nevertheless [u]when they [b]turn[b]Lord
Romans 1:19 - 21
'... because [u]that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed[i]it[i]even[i]him
There seem to be people who look but don't see, people who see but don't believe, people who hear and believe although they did't see, and people who despite demons or distance, make the journey until they are close enough to see.
Right up until Romans 2:4, there is an opportunity to [u]turn[i]turning[u]seen
I had asked Roaringlamb on another post exactly like this concerning Faith.
Glad you brought this back up.
In the OT God had to reveal Himself to men above that which is in nature. Many around the people of Israel had "faith" in other gods, but Yahweh revealed Himself by speaking and promising a Savior. He also revealed Himself in the pillar of fire, and the cloud, and on Mount Sinai. And yes, there were some from neighboring nations that were brought into Israel, but it was based upon revelation of God that they came. Like Rahab who told the spies that she had heard all that God had done to the enemies of Israel.
The promise of the New Covenant though is a new heart, in which God's Law is written. When God announces this New Covenant through the prophets Ezekiel and Jeremiah, He says repeatedly, " I will, I will, I will..." It never mentions man's ability or "free will" but instead God's work.
So the new heart that we need to believe in Christ is given to us by God, and from this "new tree" come fruits of faith and repentance, and a desire to obey the God who we for so long had offended.
How do we know that God did not change the hearts of the OT saints as well?
No brother, Cloud generalizes and makes statements about what Calvinists believe that are not true. Whether he is purposely doing this, or doing so because he does not understand Calvinism I do not know. I hope the latter.
This is interesting because I have come to discover that the number one defense a Calvinist uses is "You dont understand Calvinism".
This seems to be used a lot when a Calvinist gets seriously challenged. Not saying this is what you're doing, but this is a trend I've noticed.
Personally I have my doubts as to whether or not Calvinists even understand Calvinism... it seems to be such a confusing system of beliefs. What ever happened to the simplicity of the gospel?
Krispy
Roaringlamb,
How exactly did he reveal himself to Job, who was not an Israelite, but we know he made sacrifice. said I Know tht my redeemer liveth, and I will see Him in the flesh in the last day.
He said, I shall come forth as Gold. He was a man who lived by faith in a promised redeemer.
Tho He slay me yet will I trust in Him!
WOW!
Katy
So you are saying that at some point even the anti-christ had the CHANCE to be saved? (Though the Bible never teaches anywhere that I am aware of that the anti-christ REJECTED salvation)
Since the scripture doesnt tell us I dont think we can assume either is true.
As to an earlier question about the Aztecs... I believe, as scripture says, God has given [b]every man
Krispy
I feel that I should explain a little something about myself and how I came to these beliefs.
I was the very last person that would ever become a Calvinist, and I fought every inch of the way. Then God allowed affliction into my life. It was in the midst of this, that I realized that if my salvation depended upon my work, I was doomed. I realized that God had brought me into this season by His sovereign hand.
It was also in this valley that I realized that a man is justified by faith alone for the sake of Christ alone.
I also saw with new eyes, that the only way God can make all things work together for good for those who love Him is if He indeed is sovereign over every aspect of the world and its events.
I did not read Calvin, I read the Bible.
I hated Calvinists, now I am one.
So, please do not treat me as if I am unaware of the "other side", I know it all to well, and it nearly drove me to abandoning the faith, because I had to do, or else God wouldn't save me.
Personally I have my doubts as to whether or not Calvinists even understand Calvinism... it seems to be such a confusing system of beliefs. What ever happened to the simplicity of the gospel?
Not only so, but it makes it sound like one has to have a 140 + IQ to even understand it!
If we are to come as a little child, and have a childlike faith, that completely exposes this...."I will have to explain to you what these verses mean"
God is not a system of beliefs, He is a person.
That I may KNOW Him and the Power of His resurrection cannot be explained by a system.
Katy
So, please do not treat me as if I am unaware of the "other side", I know it all to well, and it nearly drove me to abandoning the faith, because I had to do, or else God wouldn't save me.
I agree with most of what you posted. I am not treating you as anything other than a brother who might be able to shed some light on this issue for me. Thats why I am picking your brain and kinda playing "devils advocate" a little bit.
Believe me, there is no effort on my part to convince you to forsake Calvinism... unless I discover that you are completely wrong. :-)
I'm engaging you because I want to know the truth. I want to know what makes you tick. I want to know why you beleive what you believe.
And your last post really does help.
Krispy
I was the very last person that would ever become a Calvinist, and I fought every inch of the way. Then God allowed affliction into my life. It was in the midst of this, that I realized that if my salvation depended upon my work, I was doomed. I realized that God had brought me into this season by His sovereign hand
Are you talking about sanctification?
We're not saved by affliction, we're saved from SIN.
Katy
What ever happened to the simplicity of the gospel?
Amen.
But see to me this has everything to do with the Gospel, to quote Spurgeon, "the Gospel is nothing but Calvinism."
See, if God really saves people, if He changes their hearts and works to will and do His good pleasure. Oh what wonderous assurance we have. Christ's death really accomplishes something. And we have GOOD NEWS to proclaim.
If on the other hand, God tries, but is thwarted by man, then I can get very troubled, very quickly, because I may have wandered outside of God's domain. If Christ's death did not actually atone for and appease God's wrath, then I must throw my works on to the pile and hope that I have enough for God to accept, and that is a modified version of Roman Catholicism, or just simply another religion in which man strives to climb to Heaven on his own.
Brother I recall in your initial post, you mentioned something about hyper-Calvinists, I would like to know more of what they are saying, if you don't mind.
Here's one for the non-Calvinists...
What does predestination and pre-ordination mean to you if Calvinists are indeed attributing the wrong definition to it?
Krispy
I was the very last person that would ever become a Calvinist, and I fought every inch of the way. Then God allowed affliction into my life. It was in the midst of this, that I realized that if my salvation depended upon my work, I was doomed. I realized that God had brought me into this season by His sovereign hand
Roaringlamb,
The fellowship of His sufferings comes AFTER we are saved....not before.
And Yes, by His sovereign grace, He as the Surety of the covenant Promise will conform you to His image.
But what about when you first got saved? Were you convicted of SIN?
Katy
another thing about calvinism, is it says once saved always saved, we see through out scripture, God warns , Jesus warns,Paul warns, Peter warns, John warns/indicates it is possible, we have many many warnings, if it where not possible, there would be no need for prayer, or even attending church, and in my opinion a waste of paper for Paul to write all those letters to believers, and tell them to live holy, i mean there is no need to change we will be in heaven anyway.... I know the carnal reasoning in this, but it is a true one. This is the second issue i have with calvinism, the other one is God created people for hell.
I could give a list here of all the warnings, but you know them....
KrispyKrittr wrote:So you are saying that at some point even the anti-christ had the CHANCE to be saved? (Though the Bible never teaches anywhere that I am aware of that the anti-christ REJECTED salvation)
Since the scripture doesnt tell us I dont think we can assume either is true.
As to an earlier question about the Aztecs... I believe, as scripture says, God has given [b]every man
Krispy
If "EVERY SINGLE MAN HAS A MEASURE OF FAITH" -and we are saved by grace through faith-then you would have to believe that every man is saved then-how can you have a measure of faith-but reject him. If you have a measure of faith, that measure of faith is in HIM-so according to what you just said, you also believe that person can lose their salvation then?
He said, I shall come forth as Gold. He was a man who lived by faith in a promised redeemer.
So where did this faith come from?
It's not natural, or else everyone would be saved as everyone would say, "I know my redeemer lives."
Though Job was not an Israelite, the book of Job was written before Israel even existed. So...?
BlazedbyGod wrote:
you also believe that person can lose their salvation then?
yes
I don't need to right in this argument. I know, like roaringlamb that if my salvations depends on even the slightest sliver of self, I am doomed. God was, and is, merciful toward an undeserving worm named Dave. I merited NOTHING. I had no inclination toward him, I had no special insight, no special education, no special spirituality. I heard the gospel and said "save me." I responded to His call, because he had quickened me. There is nothing a child can't understand about that. When you tell a child "God gave me life, and he gave me a new life," they understand succinctly. If you convolute it to say "I had to believe in Jesus so he could give me a new life," they understand it is a salvation based on what we do (works righteousness). When we say "God loved me so much, that when I hated him, he made me new." They understand the deep, deep love of God.
SDG,
Dave
another thing about calvinism, is it says once saved always saved
Nope, it says the elect will persevere to the end. Which means there will be fruit in their life which differs from season to season. It does not mean that someone can live however they feel after professing faith.
But what is interesting is that the very same folks who will say that the word world means every man woman and child ever created, or says that it must mean world because that's the word that is used there are quick to dismiss the plethora of verses that say quite simply that if a person believes in Christ they will be saved.
There are two spiritual fathers
N/A
But what about when you first got saved? Were you convicted of SIN?
I was, and I am, and I will be until the day I am made sinless. In the meantime I see Christ as paying for my sin, and being my righteousness before the Father.His perfect priestly work intercedes for me, so that I may have fellowship with Him.
roaringlamb wrote:
But what is interesting is that the very same folks who will say that the word world means every man woman and child ever created, or says that it must mean world because that's the word that is used there are quick to dismiss the plethora of verses that say quite simply that if a person believes in Christ they will be saved.
there is a genuine saving faith, and a false faith. You know this brother, many believe and have not the real saving faith. Most professing Christians dont have the real thing, most calvinist dont either. Jesus said if we dont understand this we can not understand anything.
Amen,
that is the simplicity of the Gospel God uniting his church to Christ's death, buriel and ressurection, in a new and holy life full of love and gratitude.
love andy
Why is it that people don't care that the angels are reserved for hell, but when it comes to people it's a whole different story.
well it is another story, Ron Baily has a wonderful and clear teaching video on this, in two parts
I will post links and i urge you all to watch both videos
As to an earlier question about the Aztecs... I believe, as scripture says, God has given every man a measure of faith. He reveals Himself in nature, and in the conscience. But even then... men reject Him.
Krispy, I don't know if you missed what I wrote earlier about this, but please read Romans 12, and then tell me this is what Paul is saying.
I know you yearn for the Scriptures and their simplicity, so just look at the verse in question (v3), and see if that is really what is being said.
By Ron B
I have gained much from these videos and Ron has some wonderful balance in this. A must Watch
there is a genuine saving faith, and a false faith.
But see what I am getting at is that you cannot just look at the word and then say, "this is what it means" without a context of how it fits in with the rest of Scripture.
You have proven my point that non Calvinists are allowed to "explain" what something "really means", but if we try to do that, then we are "adding" to the text, or using our supposedly high IQs.(By the way, Paul said that not many wise were chosen :-P )
roaringlamb wrote:By ‘grace’ everyone has been given ‘the measure of faith’ it is up to everyone what they do with it.
This is a mis-quotation of Romans 12:3 used to try to say that all men have faith. Here is the verse-
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
roaringlamb,
I quoted the verse and the Greek that shows the
same grace and the same faith that is in,
Ephes. 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Thus it is the same reason one is not to boast,
you have been given all that is necessary, and it is up to our freewill to choose what we do with it.
No, this does not fit into Calvinism, but that does not make it false doctrine
In His Love
pastorfrin
roaringlamb wrote:
(By the way, Paul said that not many wise were chosen :-P )
:-)
well it seem strange there would be so many calvinist then 8-)
well we disagree brother? have you seen bro Rons teachings? i would be intrested what you thought about them
Ephes. 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But brother these words are not written about unbelievers, they are written describing Christians.
Moreover they are written to people who had the following traits prior to conversion-
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were [b]dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein [b]in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, [b]fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind[b]by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were [b]dead in sins
Again brother, these words from Ephesians 2:8,9 from Paul are to Christians and cannot be applied to unbelievers, as they are in the state in which I highlighted.
KrispyKrittr wrote:
I've asked my Eng Lit student to look up his complete Oxford dictionary, for the word histories of 'elect' and 'ecclesia', as I have a feeling they are closer to each other than we've been led to believe. One has a Latin root, the other is Greek. That would make aHere's one for the non-Calvinists...What does predestination and pre-ordination mean to you if Calvinists are indeed attributing the wrong definition to it?
[color=0000FF]Romans 8
28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;
29 because whom He did [u]foreknow[u]fore-appoint
30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.[/color]
I've heard it suggested that those who were 'foreknown' were the house of Israel and it was they who were foreappointed to be the brethren first after Jesus.
Hi Krispy,
The following link might help you in your search for truth. The topic right under the intro might be what you're looking for.
Jordan
Though Job was not an Israelite, the book of Job was written before Israel even existed. So...?
So it proves one does not need regeneration ( being Born Again( before one can have faith. No one was Born Again in the OT.
About free will,
Even Jesus had a free will, He said, I come to do the Will of the Father...not MY will, but thine be done.
When we surrender our lives to the Lord we are actually surrendering our will to God.
No longer are we SELF WILLED, but God who now works in us to will and to do of HIS Good pleasure. Romans 12:1&2 We surrender our lives , our minds become transformed so that we can know HIS WILL.
Katy
The Calvinist/Arminian debate can be entirely avoided by looking at the understanding of the early church (Pre-Nicene) on these matters(I reccomend www.scrollpublishing.com). Calvinism is clearly rooted in Gnosticism and was brought into the church by Augustine who was converted as a Manichean(I hope I spelled that right!) and Luther/Calvin simply revived his theology. The only way that Calvinism stands is by proof texting, it can never stand up to the whole tenor of scripture. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, he is the propitiation for our sins and NOT OURS ONLY BUT THOSE OF THE ENTIRE WORLD(2Cor. 5.19 ,1John 2.2)!
Augustine who was converted as a Manichean(
So, I'm assuming you have read Augustine's writings against Manichean ideology?
To assume that these men knew nothing of the Church Fathers' writings is preposterous as that is where much of their ideas came from.
Now if we simply return to the Nicene Creed, or even pre-Nicene creed, we expose ourselves to the heresies of which these were written to refute. We could I suppose forget all about justification by faith alone, because that came after the Nicene creed too, and while we're at it, we could all head straight back to Rome.
The Historic Protestant view of Scripture is under much attack in our days as is to be expected as Satan would love nothing more than to rob people of their joy in Christ, and yoke them back to a works righteousness. See this issue is very big, it is the hinge upon which the Church stands or falls.
If Christ alone, does not save people fully apart from works, then we might as well join back up with the Roman Catholic Church. That is how big of an issue it is.
I suppose too that you are familiar with the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD, which dealt with the Arian heresy of Christ not being God? This would have to be left out if we went back to pre-Nicene times or thought.
Of course there is the Athanasian Creed which laid the ground work for the trinity, and was against those who denied the trinity. So we would have to give this up as well.
Then there is the Council of Orange of 529 AD which is perhaps one of the best resources for showing that the ideas of "Calvinism" were around long before Calvin was alive. Here is an excerpt-
[i]CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19).
[i]CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).
Oh how much we would lose if only we would just go back to pre-Nicene ideology.
Calvinism is clearly rooted in Gnosticism
Can you provide proof of this?
Brother/sister, I am sorry to be hard upon you, but too many simply repeat faulty information that they have heard about Calvinism and never look into it themselves, I was one of them so I speak from experience.
In any debate, you must be able to back up your statements, you cannot simply come out and say something that negatively portrays the other view without some proof.
For instance I could say, "all Mormons ride bicycles." But that is not true, because if one Mormon did not ride a bicycle, I would be wrong. Many do ride bicycles, but not all.
I hope you understand what I am getting at, and please do not take this personally.
brother Krispy thanks for this original thread. I cant wait to read it in its entirety.
(ps - who's taking the super bowl krispy)
(ps - who's taking the super bowl krispy)
I couldnt care less... I hate both those teams. I was really hoping that Green Bay would make it this year... but when I saw Farve throw that interception in overtime... my heart sank.
New York and New England?? I'm a southern boy... neither of those yankee teams hold any fascination for me.
Krispy
KrispyKrittr wrote:
Did Christ die for:A) All the sins of all the people.
B) Some of the sins of all the people.
C) All of the sins of some of the people.
Please choose which one you believe, and explain why.
Krispy
"For God so loved THE WORLD". The father loved the entire world so much that he gave his only son as a sacrifice for the entire world.
The danger of Calvinism is that alot of people get it in theri heads that they can't be saved because they think their not one of the elect. It also causes doubt and leaves a person thinking "Am I doing enough. Am I percervering". It's hopeless trying to witness to these people. I heard one pastor say one time that it takes ten years to win a Mennonite to the Lord. I don't know alot about the Mennonites, but I do know they are Calvinists.
As far as losing ones salvation. Jhon 3:16 says "EVERLASTING LIFE". If you could lose it that would be a short lived everlasting life. lol
Krispy, I don't know if you missed what I wrote earlier about this, but please read Romans 12, and then tell me this is what Paul is saying.
I believe, having just read this verse again at your suggestion, that what this is saying is that God has given a certain capacity, or measure, of faith to each man. Some greater than others, and totally at His discretion. But I also believe He [b]allows
Now... I'm a simple country boy, not a great theologian. I like to break things down as simply as I can. So let me ask you this...
Last night I was watching my 3 yr old and 4 yr old boys playing on the living room floor. They were setting up for the "mother of all battles". They were lining up their plastic soldiers, dinosaurs, cowboys, knights, football players, Civil War soldiers, Veggie Tales characters... you name it. As the battle began they each would move their "warriors" around behind the piano bench, up on the hearth, over behind the recliner... where ever they felt they needed to be. They would throw small balls at the other's soldiers. The two were in complete control of every action and movement of this battle.
And I thought... is this what Calvinists believe? God is moving and creating us as if we were pawns? We have no say in the matter of salvation... we're either created for heaven or for hell? God controls every aspect of our lives, even sinful men? Am I to believe that when a man sins he can not help himself? God, in His wisdom ordained before the beginning of the world that this old man they caught down in Georgia a few weeks ago would murder an elderly couple (that lived about 5 miles from me) while they were hiking in the Pisgah National Forest? So in other words, that was God's idea? To have this man murder them?
I wanna know... is this Calvinism? Did God preordain that murder? Did God make that man commit that murder?
Or does God, in His wisdom, opt to give man a choice... knowing full well that He [i]could
Krispy
Romans 12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, [u]according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
The Measure of Faith here is talking about those all ready in the Body of Christ, given a measure of faith in the use of the Gifts of the Spirit given to the Members of the Body.
But what does this have to do with our being Justified by Faith, a totally different subject.
We are first asked as Christians to present ourselves a living sacrifice HOLY and acceptable which is our reasonable [u][b]service
Are we confusing service with Salvation? We're not saved by serving God, but obedient to the Lord for our walk in Him, using our Gifts for the building up of the Saints...AFTER we are saved...Ephesians 4
Love in Christ
Katy
The Measure of Faith here is talking about those all ready in the Body of Christ, given a measure of faith in the use of the Gifts of the Spirit given to the Members of the Body.
Yea, I can see that... the commentaries seem to agree with this as well. I think perhaps at some point (probably while still in WOF) I've heard that piece of scripture taken out of context, and I need to rethink it and seek the Lord as to it's true meaning.
Thanks Katy
Krispy
What do y'all think of this statement?
[i]The Scriptures teach that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God involved the sin of the world (John 1:29) and that the Savior’s work of redemption (1 Tim. 2:6; 2 Pet. 2:1), reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:19) and propitiation (1 John 2:2) was for all men (1 Tim. 4:10), but the cross–work of Christ is efficient, effectual and applicable only for those who believe (1 Tim. 4:10; John 3:16). We could even say it in a simpler way: "Christ’s death was SUFFICIENT FOR ALL but EFFICIENT only for those who believe." The cross–work of Christ is not limited, but the application of that cross–work through the work of the Holy Spirit is limited to believers only."
Krispy
By the way... this is 11 pages now, and everything has been civil and brotherly. I really appreciate that, y'all!
Krispy
The danger of Calvinism is that alot of people get it in theri heads that they can't be saved because they think their not one of the elect
Show me one person who ever thought this. People who are concerned about their salvation are usually being worked on by the Spirit, and thus will be brought to faith in Christ.
Or, other people use this as one of many wrong reasons to not be a Christian. Like the "there are too many hypocrites in the Church" type of thing.
It also causes doubt and leaves a person thinking "Am I doing enough. Am I percervering".
I don't know what Calvinism you have been exposed to, but the point of justification by faith alone is that Christ has done all that needs to be done for a person's salvation, and there are no more works needed to gain Heaven. Because the person is justified, they will go through the process of sanctification.
Calvinists, as well as other Bible readers could say that He who began a good work in them is faithful to complete it.
It's hopeless trying to witness to these people
Why would you witness to a Calvinist person? They are already in the faith.
Amen to your last point about everlasting life.
In my many discussions with Calvinists, one thing has really stood out with me.....
Romans 12:1&2. When bringing this verse up to most Calvinists they will argue, that WE don't do anything. and this is advocating WORKS if we do.
However, this is our call to the Obedience of Faith with which we stand, and yield our members , those alive from the dead, to God....Romans 6.
Having clarified before , this is not our call to salvation, but service.
Love in Christ
Katy
We have no say in the matter of salvation
But let's start with the fact that none of us deserve salvation, so it's impossible to tell God that it is unfair if He does not save all people.
I guarantee that men make their "choice" early on in life to sin, because they are sinners by nature. If God was completely just, He would never allow anyone to be saved. But because mercy triumphs over judgment, some of the enemies are made sons and daughters.
So in a sense, we don't really have a say in who will be saved, or who won't be saved. But we have all chosen to be damned by our sin, because we love it until God changes our hearts.
Am I to believe that when a man sins he can not help himself?
Yes and no.
I'm sure all of us have sinned and afterwards thought, "who was that person?" Of course we realize that that person is our old Adam.
But in an unregenerate person though they may be able to hold back certain sins and appear moral, it is as if their foot is taped down to the accelerator of sin, and there is no brake pedal. Thus they can only sin more and more, but there is nothing within them to convict them or drive out sin and its hold over them.
Of course unsaved men are not as wicked as they could be, because God has ordained that we have laws and police to help keep them in check. Also men have a conscience which some are quite keen to regard, but this cannot save a man. I remember before I was a Christian, I thought that sex outside of marriage was ok so long as I loved the person. My conscience bothered me and I made my own law to make myself feel better.
Did God preordain that murder?
I don't know, I know He knows the number of our days, and He has seen the end from the beginning. Ultimately, if God did not want them to perish, they would not have.
Was God wrong when He flooded the Earth, and killed many? Did He ordain that?
Did God make that man commit that murder?
No, the man committed the murder out of his own sinful, depraved heart. God may have used his wicked desires for His purpose, but we do not know.
It is similar to having Roman soldiers who think they are killing a rebellious Jew, who thinks he is a king, while redeeming men from every tribe, tongue, and nation in the process.
God uses the wicked desires of men without infringing upon their will. Like the king of Babylon who sought to destroy Israel. God used him as a means of chastening His people, while the king was simply doing what he wanted.
Brother I am not going to lie to you, some of these truths are very difficult to stomach. However man is the one that needs to answer to God, and not the other way around.
We have two choices in this discussion-
1)God is sovereign over all things, and man is subject to His choices.(Which we must remember that God is love, and He does nothing unfairly, or in an unloving way)
2)Man is sovereign and God is servant to man's choices. Thus creating a god who is really one of our own desires, as he or she can be told what to do, when to do it etc.
Krispy if you also look at the story of Joseph, you will see that the evil desires of Joseph's brothers actually were part of God's plan for His people, and Joseph even says in Genesis 50:20-
"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."
But let's start with the fact that none of us deserve salvation, so it's impossible to tell God that it is unfair if He does not save all people.
No one is saying that. But I will say that you color God in a very dark color if you say that He never gives an opportunity to all men to be saved.
Krispy
we have all chosen to be damned by our sin, because we love it until God changes our hearts.
And according to your theology, regeneration happens BEFORE salvation, correct?
Krispy
God uses the wicked desires of men without infringing upon their will.
wait wait... You cant have it both ways, my friend. The ones God created for hell have a will, but those created for heaven do not?
We have two choices in this discussion-
1)God is sovereign over all things, and man is subject to His choices.(Which we must remember that God is love, and He does nothing unfairly, or in an unloving way)
2)Man is sovereign and God is servant to man's choices. Thus creating a god who is really one of our own desires, as he or she can be told what to do, when to do it etc.
No, you're wrong here... there are 3 choices...
3) God is sovereign over all things, yet in His wisdom and ability to do so He has [i]chosen
Just because God chooses to allow man to "choose life" or death does not in anyway effect His sovereignty. He could, at any second, decide to take that choice away.
If a judge has to power to sentence a man to death, but decides not to... does that weaken the power that he has? No. In fact, he is actually exercising his power.
Calvinists want to paint it black and white, make it sound as tho there are only two side to this... but thats not true. Your second option isnt even what Arminians believe. Its a misrepresentation, and it's a debate ploy meant to back the opponent into the corner. But it's simply not true.
Krispy
regeneration happens BEFORE salvation
Yes, because the old heart left to its own desires is only capable of sinning, or making up its own religious pursuits of acceptance with God. But it will not trust Christ as it sees nothing of value in Him.
Krsipy,
I think if you were to hear yourself pray, would would agree that God's will supercedes mans' will.
many times we pray like this for unbelievers,
God open his eyes...
God break his heart...
God bring him to salvation
God make him choose you ...
God save him..
We never say let so and so give you premision to come into his life so that you can save him, many times in prayer we care not for the unbleivers freewill but that God's will takes over and saves him.
so many times we pray that God would come crashing thru into a mans heart and turn the man's heart to be saved from sin and then later some of us say "will God cant do that because God infringed on man's free will". does not jive
true
love
andy
There are only two scriptures that use the word regeneration, the first you will see in Matthew 19:28....states ye which follow me in the regeneration....New Birth.
In other words, those who identify or follow Jesus in Death and resurrection life, will sit with Him on the Throne. This is promised in Revelation....Those who overcome will reign and rule with Me. This Promise is to the Church...The Body of Christ. This is our ...the Church's calling out.
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The Church is also called to Judge the fallen Angels:
Paul said:
1 Corinthians 6:2-4
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
Now concerning salvation and regeneration. No not of works, because salvation is regeneration.
No where does it say this is done prior to receiving Jesus Christ.
This is the result and evidence we are truly Saved and our repentance and faith in Christ is genuine.
According to His Mercy.....
When Jesus Christ Rose from the dead this is what happened:
Psalm 85:10
10Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Katy
I think this is semantics more than anything else. Regeneration happens at the moment of salvation... scripture could not be any more clear than that. We are "new creatures", we have a "new heart". That is regeneration, and that happens AT salvation, not before.
Now, the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of the gospel to a unregenerate heart, and at that point the person has the choice just like in the OT... "choose life". But this revealing, or "woo-ing" is not "regeneration". Before salvation the lost person is NOT a "new creature", does NOT have a "new heart". They simply have become aware of the fact that they are lost. The Holy Spirit has revealed this truth to them.
One thing that reall bugs me about people's so-called "systematic theology" is that it redefines words, and Calvinism is no excetion. "World doesnt mean world"... "all doesnt mean all"... "regeneration doesnt mean what everyone thinks it means"... etc.
The more I look into Calvinism and try to understand it... the more I realize that it's almost as confusing as Catholicism.
I like the Bible at face value. Seems like you need a doctorate to understand Calvinism.
I think the Word of God speaks for itself. Calvinism does not sit well with me at all. I do love everyone who has talked with me about it, and you are my brothers, but I just cant reckon Cavinism with scripture. If you go from Genesis to Revelation... I see God's plan unfolding through-out history... but I also see God giving man (note I say "giving", meaning HE chose to give man BECUASE He is sovereign!) a will to obey or disobey.
I dont claim to understand it no more than a Calvinist can claim to understand everything he claims to believe. So much of this is left to the mind of God. But I wonder if like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Calvinists think they have to understand God's mind and His ways, and if something doesnt make sense they use human reasoning to come up with answers that they can understand.
[b]It's also interesting to me that this doctrine, which is so all-encompassing, and effects almost every other doctrine in the Bible... is based on such a small section of scripture... 8 or 9 verses... something like that. Not that those verses shouldn't be there, they are the very Words of God (depending on what version you're reading). No, they need to be there, but when they seemingly contradict the rest of the Bible, then perhaps we need to start thinking that perhaps they dont mean what we think they mean.
Mind you, I'm not accusing anyone of anything, or meaning to offend anyone... this is just me musing about this stuff we've been talking about.
Krispy
wait wait... You cant have it both ways, my friend. The ones God created for hell have a will, but those created for heaven do not?
Let us establish something that seems to always get confused when discussing this issue, Calvinists believe that man has a will, and I do not think that I have said to the contrary.
However that will in the natural man is only set to sin, and is bound by its desires for sin. Thus though man may make many free choices like who to sleep with, who to lie to, what charity to give money to etc, what Church to got, etc. those desires are from an enslaved will dominated and ruled by sin.
The man that is enslaved to sin must be set free, and cannot do this on his own. As a matter of fact, he does not even want to be freed fro his sin, maybe from its effects(disease, jail, hangovers), but he doesn't want Christ.
But when the heart is changed, that heart senses a conviction of sin because now God has written His law upon that heart, and now the sinner sees his need for a Savior, thus he cries out to be saved. What used to please him now repulses him, and he now seeks to serve Christ. He is now no longer under the dominion of sin, but is alive in Christ, because the dead heart of stone has been made alive.
Total depravity does not deny that man has a will at all, but instead shows that man by himself cannot and will not come to Christ, and is unable to do anything to move even one step towards Christ.
3) God is sovereign over all things, yet in His wisdom and ability to do so He has chosen to allow man to accept Him or reject Him.
Let's apply this idea to the writers of Scripture. Could they have slipped in words of their own choices? Or did God override their wills and cause them to write what they wanted?
See this idea would work if man was "free" to choose. But man is not free to choose God, he only desires sin and pleasing self. If God did not intervene, no one would be saved because it is not in man to seek God. That is why Scripture tells us, "there is none that seeketh after God, no not one, they have all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Brother man left to his own devices worships and serves the creature rather than the Creator. This is not only Scripture, but is easily observable in our daily lives. Men worship themselves, or their idea of god, but do not seek salvation in Christ, because Christ is not found in nature, nor is He found in the law. Only in the Gospel does Christ come to sinners, that is why Paul says-
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Compare this with what Paul says in Romans 1, and you will see the point I am making, man creates his own image of God, and tries to earn salvation through his keeping of law, or good deeds, but the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
If a judge has to power to sentence a man to death, but decides not to... does that weaken the power that he has? No. In fact, he is actually exercising his power.
Yes, and even then who he lets off, and who he sentences is in his own power and choice. For if the criminals had all committed the same crime, and were all guilty(as all men are), then the judge cannot be at fault for pardoning some while sentencing others, because none of them deserved to be free to begin with. The law had been broken.
Its a misrepresentation, and it's a debate ploy meant to back the opponent into the corner.
Nope, it's the only other logical conclusion, and where most end up who pursue man's sovereignty to its logical end. This is why there has been such a rise in open theism within our ranks. See, if God is not really sovereign, then he does not really know the future, but instead has lots of options planned out just in case man decides to do something that He did not see coming.
In essence, you have God staying just slightly one step ahead of man like a good chess player. Oh and then also you have Satan who can mess with God's plans as well, because they are in this cosmic battle of good versus evil. Satan can mess up God's plans too.
Of course we know that this is nowhere near Scriptural.
...everyone pat me on the back. This is the longest conversation I've ever had on Calvinism! lol
Krispy
Now, the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of the gospel to a unregenerate heart, and at that point the person has the choice just like in the OT
Would you mind showing Scripture for this? As I see it, the majority of the commands to OT people are to people of God. They are God's covenant people, and not the unbelieving nations around them. So it kind of falls apart when we try to make the OT apply to modern day believers(not saying it doesn't in certain areas, but mainly in the "choose" passages)
Also, what if God told you, "Krispy, you must become pregnant with a child and birth it, if you do, you will have a baby."
Ok, so this is true but yet impossible. But since God commanded He could give the ability for it to happen right?(I am being completely silly here, but trying to make a point at the same time)
Paul state rather clearly-
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So if this is the case, doesn't this kind of negate what you're saying?
Spiritual things are understood by a Spiritual person, and that can only happen by a person be re-born.
I like the Bible at face value
Brother forgive my forwardness, but lots of WOF, cult folks(not at all implying or suggesting you fit in either camp, simply stating a fact) say this too, and use their misunderstanding of what a passage is saying to harm people.
Yes the Bible at face value is wonderous, however even men who love the Lord can misinterpret a passage and create more harm than good because they did not see if a word really means what it says.
however even men who love the Lord can misinterpret a passage and create more harm than good because they did not see if a word really means what it says.
Kinda like John Calvin did, huh?? :-P (Sorry, couldnt resist!)
Krispy
So let me ask you this... suppose if after all this discussion I declare that I reject Calvinism. Where does that leave me? Does it mean that since I dont understand it (which is what would be claimed by the Calvinist) then I am not a spiritual man, therefore not regenerated, and therefore not created for heaven until I do accept Calvinism?
I know no one has said that... but I'm asking this because I have read quite a number of things written by Calvinists who claim that if you dont believe in Calvinism you're not saved.
Actually, that [i]has
Krispy
Where does that leave me?
Lost and without hope :-P (Back at ya)
Seriously though, it leaves you as a brother who like us all is wrestling with issues in the Scriptures.
Since we agree on Christ's death for sinners,
justification by faith alone, and the sole authority of Scripture, we have enough to have fellowship and discussion.
If anyone has told you that to not accept Calvinism is to forfeit Heaven, they are out of their minds! Christ alone is the way to Heaven.
Brother I would like to suggest to you that you may find great joy in reading Martin Luther. I think you would find his view of the cross very much in line with what you posted earlier on about the cross.
All in all, I am glad to know that you are representin' in N.C. and am glad to call you brother.
Yea, hopefully I'm representing NC better than my native brother, John Edwards (dont vote for him!!).
Seriously, I agree with you. We are brothers. My only problem is that this is going to become an issue within our home fellowships here, and I need to come to an agreement with the other elders on how seriously we need to take it. We dont want to have some controversial doctrine rip us all apart... but at the same time, if we find that we have serious problems with a particular doctrine we cant ignore it either.
Be in prayer.
Krispy
Brother,
I will pray brother.
Preach Christ, let people know that He alone forgives sin, that God save people who have hopelessly screwed up their lives, and you should be ok.
If you or any others are interested, here is a link to a series called "The History and Theology of Calvinism". I don't care if you listen of don't, but just so you can be well versed and argue from a point of knowledge.
here is a link to a series called "The History and Theology of Calvinism"
Goodness! It looks like it would take a year to get thru 'em all. I can explain the gospel in about 5 minutes so anyone can understand it.... but it takes hours and hours and hours of teaching to explain Calvinism?
[b]1 Corinthians 1:27[i]But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty...
Krispy
Goodness! It looks like it would take a year to get thru 'em all
Nah, just listen to the topics you're interested in.
It'll take some work sure, but if you really wish to be able to understand and argue for your side, it helps to know where the other side is coming from.
If anything, it will strengthen you in your convictions, or who knows, you might convert ;-)
If would rather, I can get you the link for the printed version in a PDF format. Let me know.
God's grace to you brother, and may the Panthers be next year's Super Bowl Champions!
It'll take some work sure, but if you really wish to be able to understand and argue for your side, it helps to know where the other side is coming from.
I am not sure I really have a "side" in this issue yet. I'm trying to be open minded about it until the Lord directs me to the truth. But yes, you are correct, this is not something you can tackle in 5 minutes.
I really appreciate you providing those links, and I'll listen to them, but if you have a link for the pdf's that would help too because I am an underliner/hi-liter kinda guy.
God's grace to you brother,[b]and may the Panthers be next year's Super Bowl Champions![/b]
Well... perhaps God has pre-ordained it to be so! LOL We need our QB (Jake Delhomme) to be healthy, and we desperately need a great backup QB. They ran 5 QB's thru that position this year... new league record, I think. All the other pieces are in place. We have outstanding players in all the right positions... except the one that matters most. Under Center.
Krispy
Here's the PDF link[url=http://www.gracemessenger.org/files/Daniel_Curt_History_and_Theology_of_Calvinism.pdf]The History And Theology Of Calvinism
Hope the Jags get their men then, I know more about the 'Canes because I'm more of a hockey guy.
I know more about the 'Canes because I'm more of a hockey guy.
LOL... on New Years Day we were watching the Buffalo Sabres play the Pittsburg Penguins (hockey for those who dont know), and they were playing outdoors on a rink that was built in the middle of the football field where the Buffalo Bills play. It was great... snowing... cold... excellent game that went into overtime... etc.
Well, during the game they announced that coming up that weekend they would be airing some figure skating competition or another... and my wife squealed and announced great pleasure at being able to watch figure skating! (Oh boy...)
I looked at her and said "Darlin'... aint a figure skater in the world, man or woman, that could get pounded up against a plexiglass wall and hit in the face with a hockey stick by one of these guys... and still be on her feet. THIS is real skating. No need to watch figure skating!"
....to keep peace in the home I did end up watching figure skating. Well, actually... sleeping thru figure skating. I got a great nap!
By the way, I was watching a fight once... and a hockey game broke out!
Krispy
By the way, I was watching a fight once... and a hockey game broke out!
I used to play, but after becoming a Christian, it really would not be the wisest thing for me to play any longer.
I was not a "nice" player, and there's no sense in pouring gas on a fire, if you know what I mean. :-)
KrispyKrittr wrote:
Did Christ die for:A) All the sins of all the people.
B) Some of the sins of all the people.
C) All of the sins of some of the people.
Please choose which one you believe, and explain why.
Krispy
I feel Christ died for "all" of our sins but there is a difference between his dieing for our sins and receiving forgiveness for our sins. Yes I personally feel he did die for even Hitlers sins but if Hitler never accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior he never received any sacrifice for his sins, so my final answer is:
A) All the sins of all the people.
I was not a "nice" player, and there's no sense in pouring gas on a fire, if you know what I mean.
In football I always played middle linebacker. I loved to hit. I loved stuffing runningbacks. I especially loved chasing the QB down and flat backing him as hard as possible. Would I still do it now? Yea... except I'm too old now (2 yrs older than Brett Favre). I'll hurt something!
But I do coach my player to play hard. Never cheat, never give a cheap shot... but football is intended to be played hard, and if you're not going to play it hard... fill some Gatorade cups.
Krispy
Here is Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapels take on this debate... and to be honest, this rings pretty true with me. I think this comes real close to where I am with this.
Krispy
[i]Calvary Chapel's Perspective
It is not our purpose to take sides on these issues or to divide the body of Jesus Christ over human interpretations of these Biblical truths concerning our salvation. We simply desire to state how we in the Calvary Chapel fellowships understand the Bible's teaching regarding these matters.
1. DEPRAVITY
We believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5). We believe that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). We believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good (Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; I Peter 1:23-25). Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.
2. ELECTION
We believe that God chose the believer before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-6), and based on His foreknowledge, has predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29-30). We believe that God offers salvation to all who will call on His name. Romans 10:13 says, "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We also believe that God calls to Himself those who will believe in His Son, Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:9). However, the Bible also teaches that an invitation (or call) is given to all, but that only a few will accept it. We see this balance throughout scripture. Revelation 22:17 states, "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." I Peter 1:2 tells us we are, "elect according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." Matthew 22:14 says, "For many are called, but few are chosen (elected)." God clearly does choose, but man must also accept God's invitation to salvation.
3. ATONEMENT
We believe that Jesus Christ died as a propitiation (a satisfaction of the righteous wrath of God against sin) "for the whole world" (I John 2:2; 4:9-10), and that He redeems and forgives all who will believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as their only hope of salvation from sin, death, and hell (Ephesians 1:7; I Peter 1:18-19). We believe that eternal life is a gift of God (Romans 6:23), and that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus Christ will not perish, but will have eternal life (John 3:16-18). I Timothy 4:10 says "we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe." Hebrews 2:9 states that Jesus, "was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, should taste death for every man." The atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ was clearly sufficient to save the entire human race.
4. GRACE
We believe that God's grace is not the result of human effort or worthiness (Romans 3:24-28; 11:6), but is the response of God's mercy and love to those who will believe in His Son (Ephesians 2:4-10). Grace gives to us what we do not deserve nor can earn by our performance (Romans 11:6). We believe that God's grace and mercy can be resisted by us. Jesus said in Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them who are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not." We are not condemned because we have no opportunity to be saved, but a person is condemned because he makes a choice not to believe (John 3:18). In John 5:40 we read "And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life." Jesus also said in John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:40 states, "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that everyone who seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life." In John 7:37 Jesus said "If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink." In John 11:26 He adds "whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die."
Jesus clearly acknowledges the fact of human resistance and rejection. In John 12:46-48 He said, "I am come as a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came, not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath One that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
In Stephen's message in Acts 7:51, he concluded by saying, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye." In Romans 10:21, the apostle Paul quotes Isaiah 65:2 when he speaks of God's words to Israel, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." In one of the five warning passages of the book of Hebrews, we read in Hebrews 10:26, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Verse 29 adds, "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Clearly, God's grace can either be resisted or received by the exercise of human free will.
5. PERSEVERANCE
We believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 8:38-39), and that there is no condemnation to those who are in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:1). We believe that the promise of Jesus in John 10:27-28 is clear: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." Jesus said in John 6:37, "him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." We have this assurance in Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." We believe that the Holy Spirit has sealed us unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).
But we also are deeply concerned over the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23: "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name have cast out devils? And in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Apparently there are many who claim to be believers that in fact are not.
Jesus said in Luke 9:62, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." I Corinthians 6:9-10 insists that "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" and warns us not to be deceived. A list is then given of various kinds of sinful lifestyles with an ending remark that they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Similar statements and conclusions are given in Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:3-5.
Galatians 5:4 says "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Colossians 1:22-23 says about Jesus Christ "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight, if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature that is under heaven, of which I, Paul, am made a minister." II Timothy 2:12 says "if we deny Him, He also will deny us." Hebrews 3:12 says, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Can true believers ("brethren") depart from the living God? I Timothy 4:1 says that "in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith." II Thessalonians 2:3 speaks of "a falling away" or an apostasy. II Peter 2:20-21 makes these remarkable statements: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
It is no wonder that Peter says in I Peter 1:10, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." We thank God for the encouragement of Jude 24 - "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy."
Maintaining a Bible-centered balance in these difficult issues is of great importance. We do believe in the perseverance of the saints (true believers), but are deeply concerned about sinful lifestyles and rebellious hearts among those who call themselves "Christians." We don't have all the answers to these matters, but we desire to be faithful to the Lord and His word. If we find ourselves basing our view of salvation on the performance and attitudes of people we become discouraged and concerned. But when we keep our eyes on the Lord, and trust in Him alone and in His power, we say with Peter in I Peter 1:3-9:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to His abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations, that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ, whom, having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
It is not easy to maintain the unity of the Spirit among us on these matters. It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds. God's ways are "past finding out" (Romans 11:33), and the Bible warns us to "lean not unto thy own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5). To say what God says in the Bible - no more and no less - is not always easy, comfortable, or completely understandable. But Scripture tells us that the wisdom from above will be loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not trying to find ways to divide and separate from one another. May God help us all to love each other, to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Jesus Christ has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)! In difficult doctrinal matters, may we have gracious attitudes and humble hearts, desiring most of all to please Him who has called us to serve Him in the body of Christ. Discussion - YES! Disagreements - YES! Division - NO!
Jesus said, "By their fruit ye shall know them." When a particular position on the Scriptures causes one to become argumentative, legalistic, and divisive, I question the validity of that position. I seek to embrace those things that tend to make me more loving and kind, more forgiving and merciful. I know then that I am becoming more like my Lord. If you have come to a strong personal conviction on one side of a doctrinal issue, please grant us the privilege of first seeing how it has helped you to become more Christ-like in your nature, and then we will judge whether we need to come to that same persuasion. Let us always be certain to look at the fruit of the teaching.
Seek those things that produce the loving nature of Jesus in our lives. I would rather have the wrong facts and a right attitude, than right facts and a wrong attitude. God can change my understanding of the facts in a moment, but it often takes a lifetime to effect changes of attitude.
Yours in love,
Chuck Smith
I've often contemplated coaching youth hockey, as it seems like a unique avenue into the lives of young men. It would be great to share with them.
Right now though, I am preparing for a second surgery to repair torn ligaments and tendons in my wrist(tomorrow), and possibly a pin through it to hold it together. So needless to say, hockey is an after thought right now.
You ever get to any Checkers games? Or any of the other minor league teams in your neck of the woods?
Here is Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapels take on this debate
Brother I know it all too well as I attended the Calvary Chapel School of Ministry in Costa Mesa, and was a youth pastor for a few years at a Calvary.
All I can say is that though it seems gracious to have a middle ground approach, one cannot without confusing Scriptures and views.
For example, most Arminians would say, "Jesus died for your sins, He paid it all."
But then, shortly after this, they present a bill that you must pay in order to show how "thankful" you are. That is another law, it is not salvation by grace, because they make it about works.
Sadly, most evangelicals have adopted a Roman Catholic view of salvation, I do my part and God does His part. I prove my justification by the level of my sanctification. So if anyone asks them why they should be allowed into Heaven, they start their reply with, "I...."
We get to Heaven because of Christ alone.
Because modern day churches draw from so many different influences, it is not uncommon to hear conflicting views preached from the same pulpit all under the guise of unity. But let's think about this for a second. What if one Sunday you are told that a man is saved by faith, but then the next Sunday you hear that if you have an unconfessed sin in your life and are hit by a bus you will go to hell, what do you think will be the result?
I've been through the result, and it leads to depression, or Pharisee-ism.
So see theology matters, and it's not all philosophical fluff. The heart of Luther and Calvin was both for the souls of their people, as both were first and foremost pastors. They were concerned over those who were without hope in this world because they had been lied to by the Roman Catholic Church about indulgences, and traditions.
I know people like to put horns and a tail on Calvin, but he really was one of the greatest expositors of Scripture the Church has ever had, and even Arminius recommended that Calvin's commentaries be read by all.
We live in an age where everyone wants grays to be the color, but in this issue, it is black and white. Not wrong or right mind you, but if one is going to be an Arminian, then stick to it, and do not mix in the parts of Calvinism that appeal to you(Not you in particular, I am using you in general). This is where everyone comes up with this OSAS tag for Calvinism, but that is not what Calvinism teaches at all. But some have taken that part of the Calvinistic ideology and run with it, while maintaining Arminian beliefs.
The whole issue starts and ends with original sin, and if you view man as dead in sin, then God must give him life.
If man is only wounded, then he only needs a little help to get up on his feet, and can carry on on his own afterwards.
Oh yeah, here's two more links to help you in your quest-
[url=http://comingintheclouds.org/freewill/calvarychapel.htm]A Biblical Critique of Chuck Smith's Calvinism,Arminianism
This one will let you see everything that Reformed Theology believes, and has a vast listing of Historical Creeds, and writings by Luther, Spurgeon, Matthew Henry etc..[url=www.monergism.com]Monergism
So see theology matters, and it's not all philosophical fluff. The heart of Luther and Calvin was both for the souls of their people, as both were first and foremost pastors. They were concerned over those who were without hope in this world because they had been lied to by the Roman Catholic Church about indulgences, and traditions.
Really? Is this why Calvin had no problem ordering the death of those who didnt agree with his particular theology? I have avoided bringing that up because it is a distraction from what we're discussing... but I cant let you get away with saying that without the other side of the coin being shown.
I know people like to put horns and a tail on Calvin...
No, Calvin did a fine job putting horns and a tail on himself. He didnt need anyone's help.
Krispy
I've often contemplated coaching youth hockey, as it seems like a unique avenue into the lives of young men. It would be great to share with them.
It's an incredible ministry that God has called me to. I love coaching, but I especially love using my abilities to be a godly influence on young men.
Right now though, I am preparing for a second surgery to repair torn ligaments and tendons in my wrist(tomorrow), and possibly a pin through it to hold it together. So needless to say, hockey is an after thought right now.
Yea... I'm in the market for a orthopetic surgeon right now too. Got some shoulder issues... severe pain at times. Need to get some "saw-bones" to fix me up before football starts in 4 months. I think I tore something weight lifting. Not as young as I used to be.
Krispy
brother, we all expect to see fruit out of our faith in Christ. both camps do that. if a person who professes Christ for 5 years, but bears little to no fruit, what would you say about him? you would say that man is either not saved or has not learned to walk and rest in Christ. by what do you base that off?? his fruit (actions). we all do that. none of us know who is saved and who isn't, so we preach the gospel and command that believers show fruit resulting from walking with Him and Him abiding in us. how is this any different than what you would say and do?For example, most Arminians would say, "Jesus died for your sins, He paid it all."But then, shortly after this, they present a bill that you must pay in order to show how "thankful" you are. That is another law, it is not salvation by grace, because they make it about works.
would you tell someone who was a professed believer for 10 years and has left the church and denied Christ for another 10 years that he is saved and not to doubt his salvation? no, you would not. you would probably say that he was what 1 john 2:19 talks about and that the man should expect nothing but the judgement of God. why? because he has shown that he has not persevered or rather that God has not persevered him because according to many people, that believer is not saved.
all i am saying is that both sides expect to see fruit from conversion. it is not that we are saved by works, but works are the natural result of walking and abiding in Him. it is not a works-faith, but a faith that works. that is all i am trying to say. sorry it took so long.
that is an extreme that should be avoided such as telling someone that because he/she has professed Christ that no matter how much they sin and live in it, they are saved. both are extreme and should not be taught.What if one Sunday you are told that a man is saved by faith, but then the next Sunday you hear that if you have an unconfessed sin in your life and are hit by a bus you will go to hell, what do you think will be the result?
both sides agree that man is dead in sin, the difference lies in whether the natural man can by the Holy Spirit be awakened to his state. non-calvinists believe that natural man can be awakened by the Holy Spirit and repent and believe on Christ. calvinists do not believe that a natural man can repent and believe on Him. therein lies the difference to what i see.The whole issue starts and ends with original sin, and if you view man as dead in sin, then God must give him life.If man is only wounded, then he only needs a little help to get up on his feet, and can carry on on his own afterwards
nevertheless, to me whether one repents and is saved or is saved and repents matters little, but are we commanding men to repent from their sins, deny themselves and believe on Him?? that is of supreme importance.
phil
Is this why Calvin had no problem ordering the death of those who didnt agree with his particular theology?
Brother, time and again people have tried this tactic to no avail. Calvin was not the one who killed Michael Servetus. The Geneva council was.
Servetus had already sealed his own death as he was branded a heretic by both the Roman Catholic Church, and the Genevan city council.
John Calvin was not a member of this council, and as a matter of fact they hated Calvin because he told them to stay out of Church affairs, such as who could or could not take communion.
Calvin also visited Servetus and begged him to repent of his heretical teachings, which were the denial of the trinity, and be delivered from death. Calvin also went to the council and begged them to at least kill him in a more humane way.
Again, this is what I am talking about when I say, don't jump to conclusions until you have looked at both sides. I did this for many years, and had to learn to enjoy "crow" for all the garbage I believed about this man John Calvin. I believed it because I never checked for myself, but simply parroted what others told me.
It pays to look at both sides and make a Scripture based decision.
that is an extreme that should be avoided such as telling someone that because he/she has professed Christ that no matter how much they sin and live in it, they are saved. both are extreme and should not be taught.
You make a good point, but how many sins is "living in sin", and how many sins can I commit and get away with it?(Not asking for myself, but just in general)
See, I think we need to move away from this idea of climbing a ladder to Heaven, and realize that the old and the new remain together until the day of glory, and they war against one another.
God's purpose is to bring man back to living with Him in faith as Adam did before the fall is it not?
Brother, time and again people have tried this tactic to no avail. Calvin was not the one who killed Michael Servetus. The Geneva council was.
Here is a site written by a Calvinist
stating:
http://www.tlogical.net/biocalvin.htm
[b]Many who know nothing else of either Calvin or Servetus are very indignant over the tragedy, and apparently reject Calvinism because of it. We ought rather to mourn than to censure. Servetus knew the danger he braved in coming to Geneva. He had as early as 1534 been in debate with Calvin, although they did not meet personally. On his intimating an intention to visit Geneva, Calvin gave him fair warning, that, if he came, he would prosecute him to the death." Nam si modo valeat mea auctoritas vivum exire nunquam patiar (I shall never permit him to depart alive if my authority is great enough)." Calvin to Farel, Feb. 13, 1546 (cf. Calvin's Letters, Eng. transl., ii. 33). While, therefore, Calvin may be held responsible for Servetus's death, he must be cleared of the charges of having allured Servetus to Geneva, and of rejoicing in his death on personal grounds.
Katy
seeing how the bible doesn't put any number, i would hesistate to do so. but i think we would be wise to forsake thinking in terms of "how many sins is too much and how many is ok" (not saying that you are). if we continually put ourselves before Him and our lives in His hands, then we will never care to ask those kind of questions or think in those terms. we will live with such a fear of God and with such an abandon to His ways and His pursuits and His desires that we will never care about that stuff. that is all that i see that matters to God. loving God and loving others, for on these hang all the Law and the prophets.You make a good point, but how many sins is "living in sin", and how many sins can I commit and get away with it?(Not asking for myself, but just in general)
i hope no one clings to that idea, but by the grace of God sees Him as the I AM that He is.See, I think we need to move away from this idea of climbing a ladder to Heaven,
brother if this is our goal then we have surpassed this. we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us to teach us about Christ. but if this is our end then we have missed His ultimate purpose " to sum all things up in Christ". to that end God works and so should we. that kind of stuff makes all this calvinism/non-calvinism stuff dwarf in comparison to Him, ya know??God's purpose is to bring man back to living with Him in faith as Adam did before the fall is it not?
anyways, it's always fun talking to you.
phil
You make a good point, but how many sins is "living in sin", and how many sins can I commit and get away with it?(Not asking for myself, but just in general)
You're not promoting Christian perfection, are you?... lol
See, I think we need to move away from this idea of climbing a ladder to Heaven,
I dont recall anyone here coming close to even suggesting there was such a thing.
...and realize that the old and the new remain together until the day of glory, and they war against one another.
Amen to that. I am the poster child for this.
God's purpose is to bring man back to living with Him in faith as Adam did before the fall is it not?
You're absolutely right on the mark with what you just said... but I believe a TRUE Calvinist would say it like this:
"God's purpose is to bring [b]SOME MEN
...and I reject that.
Krispy
to that end God works and so should we. that kind of stuff makes all this calvinism/non-calvinism stuff dwarf in comparison to Him, ya know??
Absolutely
anyways, it's always fun talking to you.
The same to you as well brother, I enjoy being able to speak to one another and cover controversial issues while maintaining brotherly love. It shows others that these kinds of conversations can go on without arrogance and foolish attacks.
Grace to you brother.
brother if this is our goal then we have surpassed this. we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us to teach us about Christ.
I know one major factor is really overlooked here.
Grace...The Spirit of God.
These were all things the Jews rejected, the Gospel of Grace with the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Before Paul's conversion, he was a religious man, so much so he too murdered to preserve the faith....however it was not THE Faith.
As a man who knew the importance of True Faith after his conversion, and holding to the Faith Paul never killed again defending the Faith..the Real True Faith of the Gospel of Grace!
Now that's **true** Faith...not religion.
Katy
Here are several pointers you may wish to consider when looking at the death of Michael Servetus.
[b]* Motives
[b]* Historical Context
Paul Henry, a notable historian, writes: “Calvin here appears in his real character; and a nearer consideration of the proceeding, examined from the point of view furnished by the age in which he lived, will completely exonerate him from all blame. His conduct was not determined by personal feeling; it was the consequence of a struggle which this great man had carried on for years against tendencies to a corruption of doctrine which threatened the church with ruin. Every age must be judged according to its prevailing laws; and Calvin cannot be fairly accused of any greater offence than that with which we may be charged for punishing certain crimes with death.” Calvin was right to take action. The horrid inevitability was that in this time and place heresy was a civil offense and one punishable by death.
[b]* Calvin’s Authority
[b]* Calvin’s Compassion
[b]* Expiation
“Dutiful and grateful followers of Calvin our great Reformer, yet condemning an error which was that of his age, and strongly attached to liberty of conscience, according to the true principles of the Reformation and of the Gospel, we have erected this expiatory monument. October 27th, 1903.”
While such a monument can hardly atone for the death of a man, it does express a post-Reformation understanding that such an act was unacceptable and an unfortunate product of the times.
Also, here is a very good article about this subject-
Here is an excerpt-[i]Was Geneva A Theocracy?
Michael S. Horton
©1992, 1999 Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals
From the first-hand accounts, Oxford's Gillian Lewis notes, "The city of Geneva possessed a significance which was symbolic and mythical. Her friends saw her as the mirror and model of true piety, a haven of refuge, a roosting-place for fledglings, a stronghold to train and dispatch abroad soldiers of the Gospel and ministers of the Word." And yet, there were enemies as well, enemies who saw Geneva as "Satan's sanctuary, a source of heresy, atheism, and libertinage and a centre for the active dissemination of sedition."1
Just as soon as Geneva embraced the Reformation officially and severed its loyalties to the bishop and Duke of Savoy, the city was flooded with refugees from all over Europe. Overnight Geneva became, after Wittenberg, Zurich, and Strasbourg, a capitol of the Protestant faith. Foreign visitors expressed amazement as they observed both the theological and practical attractions of the city.
Nevertheless, the impressions we received from our high school teachers, more than likely, had little in common with those reported by first-hand witnesses, friend or foe. Images abound of a tyrant in a black academic gown, organizing a sixteenth-century equivalent of the secret police to insure that no one, at any time or any place, was enjoying himself. The amazing thing about this is not the image itself, but the fact that it has survived in the public imagination even though it has been refuted by the consensus of the world's leading Renaissance and Reformation historians for over half a century. The foundation for this public myth is the assertion that Geneva was a theocracy and Calvin was its pope.
brother if this is our goal then we have surpassed this. we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us to teach us about Christ.
Was this no the same Spirit in those as well?
What is Christ teaching us?
While such a monument can hardly atone for the death of a man, it does express a post-Reformation understanding that such an act was unacceptable and an unfortunate product of the times.
We also have the apology of Pope John during the 2000 whatever.
Did he not also apologize for the Crusades?
Do apologies really change the religions basis of doctrine?
Out of the Pope's apology, are they NOW the same as Protestants, believe the exact? NO!
Apologies and excuses don't change doctrine.
Jesus Christ is the same, Yesterday, today and tomorrow. Jesus doesn't change with the politics of the world.
The Spirit of the **times** was in Calvin....but was the Spirit of God in Calvin?
If today, when we find Christians coming under persecution for our faith...all run to a safe haven…..avoiding persecution for the Cross of Christ... are we told in scripture to do this too?
To persevere, means to hold up under persecution...even unto death.
I do believe the Perseverance of the Saints according to Calvinism is not the same as what scripture teaches.
The SECURITY of the Saint, the true terminology that should be used, is that we are secure in Christ, regardless of the circumstances we find ourselves in.
America, based on Calvinism, brought by Puritans, was to also build a Country ...a safe Haven...free of persecution.
Could this be the Pride America has, and why we have never really been persecuted? Have we become weak ( Christians), selfish and self centered because of this idea we can hide in a safe haven, never really tested or challenged.
I wonder!
Love in Christ
Katy
Could this be the Pride America has, and why we have never really been persecuted? Have we become weak ( Christians), selfish and self centered because of this idea we can hide in a safe haven, never really tested or challenged.
No, I'd say it was the error of Pelagian ideology that said that man needed to help God in His plans combined with national zeal that comes into the Church and produces a proud "we can do it" attitude.
There are far too many influences upon American culture throughout History to really nail it down to one group though.
This is both a blessing and a curse. Dietrich Bonhoeffer once wrote a lament of the American Church in which he said-
[i]“God has granted American Christianity no Reformation. He has given it strong revivalist preachers, churchmen and theologians, but no Reformation of the church of Jesus Christ by the Word of God. Anything of the churches of the Reformation which has come to America either stands in conscious seclusion and detachments from the general life of the church or has fallen victim to Protestantism without Reformation…American theology and the American church as a whole have never been able to understand the meaning of ‘criticism’ by the Word of God and all that signifies. Right to the last they do not understand that God’s ‘criticism’ touches even religion, the Christianity of the churches and the sanctification of Christians, and that God has founded his church beyond religion and beyond ethics. A symptom of this is the general adherence to natural theology. In American theology, Christianity is still essentially religion and ethics. But because of this, the person and work of Jesus Christ must, for theology, sink into the background and in the long run remain misunderstood, because it is not recognized as the sole ground of radical judgment and radical forgiveness. The decisive task for today is the dialogue between Protestantism without Reformation and the churches of the Reformation.”
Katy, why does it seem that you have an agenda based on your hatred of those who are Calvinists?
You have tied us to the Masonic Lodge, the Mormons, and just about every other cult without any credible proof of your points or view.
I understand your concern, and agree that there are groups "behind the scenes" in America. But to equate someone to those with evil purposes without any tangible proof is quite unfair.
Like I said earlier, I am offended by this, not at the points we disagree upon, but rather the way in which you link a Biblical view to cults, and then say that we are all like them.
Katy, why does it seem that you have an agenda based on your hatred of those who are Calvinists?
I have no hatred whatsoever for Calvinists, only the doctrine of Calvinism. Please know the difference.
I do not hate Mormons, but I do hate the doctrine of Mormonism.
I know you may not know or study cults, and the roots, and the similairities. But those who do, will be honest about these facts.
Puritans who settled in MA, were most certainly Masons as well, signing our Constitution...This is a fact.
Mormons also Masons, have much in common with Puritanism. So close in fact, many Puritans left and joined the Mormons as they moved out west.
This is not HATE to make these finds known. But those who don't like one knowing the roots and facts will most assuredly call you hateful for doing so.
Love in Christ
Katy
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cor/dominion.htm
Roaringlamb,
This website is a Calvinist website.
Hear what they say about their own.
Katy
PS: Here is the page on Puritanism and the connection.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/amr/puritan.htm
I know you may not know or study cults
You know this? How pray tell do you know this?
I have and am aware of what they teach. I find nothing in the teachings of Calvinism to be cult-like at all.
Puritans who settled in MA, were most certainly Masons as well, signing our constitution...This is a fact.
Again, show proof of this from a credible source. I know that there is a vast network of conspiracy folks who would love nothing more than to say this, but where is the proof?
So Jonathan Edwards was a Mason? George Whitefield was a Mason?
Mormons also Masons, have much in common with Puritanism. So close in fact, many Puritans left and joined the Mormons as they moved out west.
Where is your historic proof of this? Seeing as the Mormon Church was started in the 1800's was it not? The Puritans arrived in the 1700's right?
This is not HATE to make these finds known. But those who don't kile one knowing the roots and facts will most assuredly call you hateful for doing so.
I have no problem with someone conjecturing about things. It is when they believe themselves to be the authority and everyone else to be wrong that it becomes a problem.
I am not calling you hateful for supposedly exposing these things, but rather the tone in which you do it.
Still, your dislike of Calvinism, or should I say hatred(as you said)is not fitting for a woman of God. Especially if you are truly desiring to show us poor Calvinist brothers and sisters the errors of our ways.
Hear what they say about their own.
Ok, first off there was more written about men like Pat Robertson than any Calvinist.
Second, Dominion theology is not Calvinist, and the author of this piece has no proof to verify that these so called Calvinists believe this. It seems that in his zeal to warn of a very dangerous ideology, he forgot to put in some facts about the Calvinists he was referring to.
Or maybe it's just ok to lie about Calvinists and treat them in an non brotherly way?
The predominant view of eschatology in the Reformed group is Amillennialism, which has nothing to do with Dominion theology because in the Amil view, we are in the 100 years right now, and Christ returns and that is the end of the story. Man cannot rebuild to usher in the coming of Christ.
The second link is interesting in that the author uses "secular" books to promote his agenda. Shouldn't a discernment ministry stay away from secular books? Do you really think that a non Christian is going to approach the subject with integrity?
So in your view I guess David Brainerd, or the hundreds of other missionaries who lived amongst the Indians were there to kill them?
Were there some bad seeds or tares among the wheat then as now? Absolutely, but you cannot discount a Biblical theology because some who professed faith were not in the faith.
Thank you Lord for helping me continue to keep my eyes and heart and focus on you and you only. :-)
Thank you Lord for helping me continue to keep my eyes and heart and focus on you and you only
Amen, and thank you Lord for my brothers and sisters here on SI :-)
http://www.worldandi.com/specialreport/puritan/puritan.shtml
Roaringlamb, here are some facts.
Do you also want to see the list of known Masons who were from MA, a strictly Puritan state?
Also, Yes, the Puritans were here first, and were carried away with Joseph Smith in the 1800's.
So were those who were religious but not Calvinists.
Point being, if one were elect, then God said the True Elect cannot be deceived!! Or can they?
That was the point here....if you claim to have the guarantee of *perseverance*, or not falling away, Hummmmmm!
Point in all of this.....
We put our Faith in Jesus Christ...not doctrine.
Doctrines of men can be deceiving, but Jesus Christ will never deceive you!
Love in Christ
Katy
Also, Yes, the Puritans were here first, and were carried away with Joseph Smith in the 1800's
Wow, so all the Puritans that came over became Mormons!!! I doubt it.
Again, tares are among the wheat, and if they go out from among the faithful, as Scripture says, "they were not of us."
Doctrines of men can be deceiving, but Jesus Christ will never deceive you!
Agree somewhat, but the Jesus you put your faith in determines alot as well.
Is that magazine a Christian publication, or a secular one with an agenda to prove how wicked the Christians are?
Now I would have you know that I understand that the buildings in D.C. are secret messages to the Masons, as are many buildings in Paris. I understand that, and I know the influence that secret societies have played in American politics. But this in no way destroys the Scriptural truth of the doctrines of Calvinism.
That would be like saying that because Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong and use the Bible that the Bible must be wrong.
It is what it is, my duty as a Christian is to love the Lord, and love my neighbor as myself. Which means that I preach the Gospel to them, help them, befriend them etc.
Be careful how far you get into the conspiracy and discernment world, because before you know it, everything will be wrong, and you will be a miserable person who sees no hope in anything, especially if God is not sovereign!
roaringlamb wrote:
Be careful how far you get into the conspiracy and discernment world, because before you know it, everything will be wrong, and you will be a miserable person who sees no hope in anything, especially if God is not sovereign!
A big Amen! on that!! :-)
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm
Here is an excellent article, and just may cool even the heels of all here!
Discernment is not the same as conspiracy! How silly!
Anyway, good evening, and happy reading...by a Calvinist...
Katy
Discernment is not the same as conspiracy! How silly!
I wasn't saying that, just that they both can end up in the same type of despair.
Phil Johnson is a wonderful brother in the Lord, and I agree wholeheartedly with what he wrote.
However this sheds no light on your other assertions. I did not see anything about Puritans all becoming Mormons, nor did I see that Calvinists were Masons or cult members.
Hyper-Calvinism is not the same as Biblical Calvinism. But you knew that already, I hope :-)
Wow, so all the Puritans that came over became Mormons!!! I doubt it.
Just one last thing Roaringlamb,
No not all Puritans were carried off with Joseph Smith..however many did. Joseph Smith grew up in the NE among the Puritan faith.
In reading the 7 letters to teh Churches in Revelation, we see many strange doctrines infultrated into the Church.
Gnosticism
the Nickelocians (sp)
The Doctine of Baalam
just to name a few.
It would do us all good to re-read these letters in light of what Jesus said about false doctrines.
All have their roots in something somewhere. Do we think today is any different? No, actually worse.
Discernment Ministries have gone to great lengths and study digging to the roots of many false teachings in the Church Today. Why, to protect the Sheep. Is this hate? Absolutely not!
To make light of it, or scoff it off as Conspiracy Theories is not wise.
Love in Christ
Katy
I only pop into these Message boards occasionaly, so it wasnt until today that I caught roaringlamb's reply of 1-21. I will be happy to give a very thorough answer very soon. God Bless.
Hyper-Calvinism is not the same as Biblical Calvinism. But you knew that already, I hope
I see many comments here made that sounds like hyper-calvinism.
You can, if you are really interested, to do your own research on the background and roots of many of these issues, reconstruction/replacement/Dominion Theology.
Read the Book, The Light and the Glory by Peter Marshall, highly promoted in many Reformed Churches, tht America is God's New Promised LAnd and America is God's New Chosem People.
The articles you seem to believe are secular, are also stated in his book.
I may look in the encyclopedia for facts, although secular, doesn't mean those facts are false.
We have history after 95AD when Revelation was written.
Historians don't necessarily have to be Christian to report accurate History.
Katy
Jesus Actually Saves
Matthew 1:21; Luke 19:10; Acts 5:31; Romans 3:24-25; Romans 5:8-9; Romans 5:10; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 1:3-4; Galatians 3:13; Ephesians 1:3-4; Ephesians 2:15-16; Ephesians 5:25-26; Philippians 1:29; Colossians 1:13-14; Colossians 1:21-22; 1 Timothy 1:15; Titus 2:14; Titus 3:5-6; Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 13:12; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 John 1:7.
Jesus Fulfills the Eternal Covenant
John 6:35-40; John 10:11; John 10:14-18; John 10:24-29; John 17:1-11; John 17:20; John 17:24-26; Romans 5:12; Romans 5:17-19; Ephesians 1:3-12.
How Jesus Died for “All” and Yet for a Particular People (2)
These texts speak of Christ’s saving work in general terms: John 1:9; John 1:29; John 3:16-17; John 4:42; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; 1 Timothy 2:4-6; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:1-2; 1 John 4:14.
One reason for the use of these expressions was to correct the false notion that salvation was for the Jews alone. Such phrases as “the world,” “all men,” “all nations,” and “every creature” were used by the New Testament writers to emphatically correct this mistake. These expressions are intended to show that Christ died for all men without distinction (i.e., he died for Jews and Gentiles alike), but they are not intended to indicate that Christ died for all men without exception (i.e., he did not die for the purpose of saving each and every lost sinner).
These texts speak of Christ’s saving work in definite terms and show that it was intended to infallibly save a particular people, namely, those given to him by the Father: Matthew 1:21; Matthew 20:28; Matthew 26:28; John 10:11; John 11:50-53; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32-34; Ephesians 5:25-27; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 3:1; Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 9:28; Revelation 5:9.
"I am told it is my duty to say that all men have been redeemed, and I am told that there is a Scriptural warrant for it—"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile." -Spurgeon
1. The word "all" is often used to indicate all of a set, or even many representatives of a set
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
Joh 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Act 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
2. Or, to indicate all "classes" or "nations," not all individuals
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of ["manner of" is not in the Greek] evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of ["manner of" is not in the Greek] fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
3. The word "world" is often used in the sense of "many," or "all of a set"
Luk 2:1-2 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
Act 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Discernment Ministries have gone to great lengths and study digging to the roots of many false teachings in the Church Today. Why, to protect the Sheep. Is this hate? Absolutely not!
Unfortunately alot of "discernment" ministries are only quick to discern what doesn't agree with them, or they use personal attacks rather that sticking to Scripture alone to refute much of what is wrong.
Much of it comes across as unloving correction because it is not done in love, or genuine concern for people, but rather to prove how right they are.
Now is there a need for some of these folks? Yes, absolutely, but when they create chaos and confusion, and lead sheep astray, or to think that there is boogey man behind every corner, something is wrong.
I have a dear friend who spent 20+ years in the new age scene, and then became a Christian. All he does now a days is sit and point out how every single symbol is satanic, and that everyone who sees it will become possessed or fall away.
This same friend absolutely hates Calvinists, and told me I was out of my mind, and that he was worried for me when I finally told him that I was one. Yet there is such a hatred for Calvin in him, and yet he has not read any books of his.
I see a similar thing with you katy, and it concerns me, because it catches up to you eventually.
To make light of it, or scoff it off as Conspiracy Theories is not wise.
When did I do this?
I am very concerned about the rapid degeneration of the Church in America. But in my opinion it is due to the departure from a Calvinistic view of God and man. Because men are supposed to be able to respond, altar calls are given, and emotional ploys are used to get "decisions for Christ."
Yet many are not regenerated, but are told they are Christians because they did something.
It grieves me deeply that the Church sounds more and more Roman Catholic every day, and that Biblical illiteracy is so rampant among those who profess to be Christians, and I firmly believe that in many ways we are worse off than the period prior to the Reformation because people have lost the doctrine of Justification by faith alone.
roaringlamb said
This is to misrepresent the pre-reformation practice of Catholicism completely, and to neglect that there were always those who understood the gospel and practised it, on the fringes, who never were Catholics before the Reformation.I firmly believe that in many ways we are worse off than the period prior to the Reformation because people have lost the doctrine of Justification by faith alone.
I realise I've taken your comment slightly out of context, but there is [i]nothing
I really get tired of everyone assuming that the gospel got lost somewhere along the way for 1500 years until the Reformers came on the scene. I dont want to detract from the works of the Reformers, for they were needed and did much good. However, historically there were Bible believing Christians all down thru the ages... but they get forgotten about. How in the world do you think the Textus Receptus was even preserved without true Bible believing Christians? The church of Rome tried to wipe them out, tried to prevent anyone from having the Word of God, tried to destroy the TR... but yet these saints persevered.
But they get ignored, and the Reformers get all the credit.
Nothing against the Reformers, but they certainly did not have the market on truth.
I am not a Protestant. I prefer to think that my spiritual heritage is with the ones who followed the truth even when the majority did not. From the 1st century until now. Not from the 1st to 3rd centuries... then picked up again in the 1500's.
Krispy
brother roaringlamb, i am non-calvinistic and this concerns me as well. can we quit saying it is because of the departure from calvinism/arminianism and see it is because we have went from the Spirit to the flesh. it has nothing to do with calvinism or not.I am very concerned about the rapid degeneration of the Church in America. But in my opinion it is due to the departure from a Calvinistic view of God and man. Because men are supposed to be able to respond, altar calls are given, and emotional ploys are used to get "decisions for Christ."
for every spurgeon there is a wesley. for every edwards there is a tozer. come on guys, seriously this is nonsense. we have forsaken our God and followed idols of what we think God is instead of who He really is. our need is not a return to calvinism or arminianism, but to seeing God as He really is and pouring out our life accordingly.
phil
brother there is a balnce with this statement.by Abe_Juliot on 2008/1/23 20:13:501. The word "all" is often used to indicate all of a set, or even many representatives of a set
isaiah 53:6 "ALL we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned EVERY ONE, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us ALL".
am i suppose to assume that all mankind has gone astray, but God has laid on Him the iniquity of all kinds of sets and groups and tribes?? that reading and adding what one wants it to say than what it really says.
just wanted to balance your statement friend.:-)
phil
Here is the absolute Truth about God's Elect.
Paul ends Romans 8, after laying the foundation of Godliness, based upon our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection Life. Romans 1-8...re-read 6-8 especially !
Acts 5:23 states the Spirit is given to Those who Obey. Reformers state God gives His spirit first so you can obey.
Is Jesus Christ YOUR NEW PROMISE LAND? It Should be, for there and there alone will you find a life that brings forth Godliness.
The Mystery of Godliness of great, and that Mystery has nothing to do with the physical land we stand on....but that we are a New Creation in Christ Jesus.
As many as walk according to this rule are the Elect of God.
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Love in Christ
Katy
PS: Added,
Because Reformed Theology believes that America is God's New promised Land, and we are God's new chosen people come this strange ides that America is falling away because they are falling away from Calvinism.
They use scripture...If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and turn from their wicked ways......
MY People are not Americans. and this Promise was to Israel, not America. God never made a Covenant with a Gentile Nation, no matter how much we would like to believe He did.
The Body of Christ is not wicked and evil that it needs to repent, and to suggest we are is the greatest insult to God and to His Church...The Mystical Body of Christ.
brother roaringlamb, i am non-calvinistic and this concerns me as well. can we quit saying it is because of the departure from calvinism/arminianism and see it is because we have went from the Spirit to the flesh. it has nothing to do with calvinism or not.
I agree... it's a departure from the Word of God, period. Not a departure from someone's system of theology.
Believe it or not, John Calvin's writings were not inspired scripture... and neither were Tozer's... or whoever you want to put in there.
Krispy
One thing I have noticed in the reading of different perspectives on this issue over the past few days is that hard core Calvinists are much more apt to label anyone who questions Calvinism as being hateful. They also question the salvation of anyone who dares to question Calvinism.
Thankfully no one has done this here, and in fact have said the opposite.
But isnt it interesting how we (meaning all of us) have a tendancy to add our own theological points of view to salvation?
"What must I do to be saved?"
Repent and believe on Christ... and believe in my theology & pet doctrines.
How wicked and perverse is that?
Krispy
I am very concerned about the rapid degeneration of the Church in America. But in my opinion it is due to the departure from a Calvinistic view of God and man. Because men are supposed to be able to respond, altar calls are given, and emotional ploys are used to get "decisions for Christ."
Sounds more like the Church OF America in the same sense as the Church of England.
Sometimes Calvinists make the worst Calvinists!
A departure of a view of God and Man doesn't assure (according to the Calvin Doctrine) that one is the Elect, but establishes not all men are the Elect. So who then is departing from Calvinism ......the Calvinists themselves??????????? Or are you saying, brainwashing to conform men to this theology alone assures your election...not pre-regeneration as Calvinism teaches? Sounds like a total contradiction here to me!
Katy
dear katy-did, come on sister. i disagree with certain teachings of calvinism, but some of the comments you say are neither helpful nor encouraging to the calvinist to continue discussing the issue.Sometimes Calvinists make the worst Calvinists!
i hope you can understand what i'm trying to say to you.
brother roaringlamb, i appreiciate your conversation.. like i said yesterday, it's always fun.
phil
but some of the comments you say are neither helpful nor encouraging to the calvinist to continue discussing the issue.
What do you hope to gain by discussing the issue?
I believe my comments are Christ centered, and Gospel Centered.
So, no I won't "Come On" and stop.
To say that America is losing it's Christian roots because one does not adhere to the doctrines of Calvinism that one cannot repent with out being first regenerated is a total slap in the face to the Gospel.
And accusing all other forms( other then the Calvin way) as false professions of faith is not something that need to be [u][b]discussed[u][b]rebuked
Please continue you own comments Phil, and refrain from muzzling others.
I don't see you asking Krispy to be quiet because he stated Calvinism is not taught in scripture.
Katy
The question of this thread:
For whom did Christ die for:
God's Answer:
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This CLEARLY establishes ours, and the whole world.
BUT ALSO, does not and is not a double emphasis of the Elect only.
Katy
What do you hope to gain by discussing the issue?
Personally I'm hoping to gain some insight into what Calvinists believe... and what better way to find out than to actually conversate with some Calvinists.
My purpose in starting this thread, Katy, was not to necessarily proove Calvinism wrong. It's been 500 years and yet the debate rages on. I seriously doubt we will settle the issue once and for all on this forum.
I confess that until this week I knew very little about Calvinism. So how can I rebuke something if I dont know why I am rebuking it? Too many Christians look at an issue for about 5 minutes and think they are experts. I am not that way. I've studied the Bible version issue for years, debated it heavily on this very forum... and yet I in no way consider myself an expert on the subject.
There are parts of Calvinism that I do understand, and actually agree with. There are some I flatly do not agree with. There are MANY parts I simply am not able to comprehend... and that is why this needs discussing.
Sorry Katy if we all dont just take your word for it.
You've added a lot to this discussion, and I really love the fact that you want to be a part of this. Just hold off on the rebukes and reproofs. I dont want anyone chased off of here.
Believe it or not, darlin' ... I believe Calvinists are my brothers. Even if I dont believe everything they believe. They know salvation, they have the truth pertaining to that, and therefore I choose to only see Jesus in them.
Krispy
Katy-did wrote:
The question of this thread:For whom did Christ die for:
God's Answer:1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This CLEARLY establishes ours, and the whole world.BUT ALSO, does not and is not a double emphasis of the Elect only.
Katy
Not neccessarily, the "ours" in this verse could be John speaking of himself and to the people he was writing to-which both John and the people he is writing it are Jews- thus that would constitute the "ours"-then for him to include the phrase "....and sins of the whole world.." would simply mean John was letting them know, that Jesus did not only die for the chosen children of Israel, but the entire world-meaning -even them who are not jews, but even gentiles, greeks, etc...
In Old T, the Jews knew themselves to be the ONLY people of God-thus, when you get to the new T, this is why phrases are written: "all, world, etc... letting them know that God is not the God of Jews only, but also of the Gentiles-which to Jews, would be THE REST OF THE WORLD.
Or, in other words, John is just letting his specific readers know that it wasn't just him (John) and them (the reader) who Christ was the propitiation for of sins-but the rest of the world to mean or include the rest of the Church all over the whole world.
Jesus makes it plain who it is that he died for:
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life FOR HIS FRIENDS. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you
Go back to verse 9: 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved YOU: continue ye in my love
As the Father loved the SON-Jesus says so have I loved YOU-who is the YOU in this verse-his disciples, his followers, or " them that love him"
From the beginning God has always stated: " I love them, THAT LOVE ME.." -this is why he loved the SON, because the SON loved HIM, and this is even as the SON hath loved US (the disciples, the Church-because we love the Father through Christ)
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them THAT LOVE ME, and keep my commandments.
So we must understand-who the "world" is to God-
John 3:16 For God so loved the world...this refers to ALL that He, the Father had GIVEN TO THE SON.
This is why Jesus says: ALL whom thou hast given me will come to me-BECAUSE OF THE FORKNOWLEDGE of God's love-to love them that love him because he loved US first, not that we loved him.
The idea here, is an arranged marriage-the Father, picked the Bride for his SON.! And the SON is pleased with THAT bride, Because he does all things to please the FATHER, and according to the Father's will.
The fourth time the name JESUS is mentioned in the beginning or opening of the Gospel, even tells us who Christ died for, or came to save:
Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save [b]HIS PEOPLE
* This does not ONLY refer to Jews, because Jesus saved both Jew & Gentile-and there is neither jew nor gentile IN Christ.
Who are "HIS" people?-Those whose names were in the Lambs book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
Blazed, if we take your reasoning, which is God loves those who love Him, and hates those who hate Him... then Jesus preached to us that we should do something that He Himself is not willing to do... "love thy enemies".
Mat 5:43-48 [color=FF0000]"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."[/color]
Jesus is preaching the very heart of God here. Yet you say that He loved only His "friends". You are wrong on this point.
And this is the whole problem I have with Calvinism... it makes God a respecter of persons (which God Himself said He wasnt), it makes Him out to be a hater of all who He has predestined to hell (but yet Jesus says to us that we should do something even God isnt supposedly capable of doing)... and it makes God out to be the creator of evil and sin.
Krispy
Krispy,
I could make the same argument as far as you saying God loves the world, but then later on in John tells us NOT to love the world.
God loves them who love him- IS NOT MY REASONING-(you made it my reasoning) but is a direct scripture on MORE than one account.
I guess you are also forgetting, that God knew all before creating ANY THING-and that Jesus is talking to FINITE individuals about finite individuals, but God on the other hand WHO IS SOVERIGN and INFINITE KNOWING ALL THINGS-is it unrighteous for God to do anything?
You are also forgetting, that any saved person too was ONCE AN ENEMY OF GOD-Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 9:13 "...saying Jacob I HAVE LOVED, Esau I HAVE HATED.."
"then Jesus preached to us that we should do something that He Himself is not willing to do... "love thy enemies"."
And, you are too late, because God has already from the foundation of the world done something-that none of us would ever be willing to do-and that is crush his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
"[b]Jesus is preaching the very heart of God here. Yet you say that He loved only His "friends". You are wrong on this point.
I am not the one who said: I lay down my life FOR MY FRIENDS-JESUS is the one that said that-so to say that statement is wrong, is to say that Jesus is wrong (not me)
"[b]..it makes God a respecter of persons (which God Himself said He wasnt), it makes Him out to be a hater of all who He has predestined to hell
Well I guess, you should ask Judas Iscariot about that-because he sure nough is lost, and is the Son of Perdition, as well as the anti-christ, and the false prophet-which all of these PEOPLE are eternally wihtout any possiblity of hope DAMNED! And they even came INTO world ALREADY damned-they NEVER had any chance WHATSOEVER for salvation.
wow, i can already see the future posts about this comment.And they even came INTO world ALREADY damned-they NEVER had any chance WHATSOEVER for salvation.
i guess that is the difference between you and me. i believe that all have a chance to receive and believe on Him and you don't.
i shouldn't say anything else. have a great day.
phil
Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
2 Timothy 2:14
Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers
Main Entry:
sub•vert
Middle English, from Anglo-French subvertir, from Latin subvertere, literally, to turn from beneath
1 : to overturn or overthrow from the foundation : RUIN 2 : to pervert or corrupt by an undermining of morals, allegiance, or faith
2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
This verse cannot get any simpler.
These Paul are talking about are Not those God has foreordained to damnation. But because THEY received not the Truth of the Gospel that they might be saved.
So, salvation is based upon receiving the Truth of the Gospel. Not based upon God receiving it for you.
It is most interesting that the Jews, having ADDED as well as diminished the Truth, did not even recognize Jesus when he came.
That’s what happens when WE start playing around with the Word of Truth.
They thought they were God’s ELECT simply because they were Abraham’s seed.
The Judgments in Revelations are in hopes to bring repentance. How can God even conceive of doing this, if He hasn’t made it possible for man to repent.
I do understand that those who come to Christ are written in the Lambs book of Life….from the foundation of the world. WE however did not exist before the foundation of the world, but God’s plan of the New Creation did.
Revelation 2:6
But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
It was mentioned that we should not HATE false doctrine, for in doing so, we are hating those who hold to false doctrine. However this is not the words of Jesus Christ.
Thanks Krispy…..
This is my last comment here on the subject. I see each question or remark only gives an opportunity to submit that which does subvert the hearers by introducing a subverted version.
Jesus did not come for the righteous, but to bring sinners to repentance!
Love in Christ
Katy
wow, i can already see the future posts about this comment.
LoveHim wrote:And they even came INTO world ALREADY damned-they NEVER had any chance WHATSOEVER for salvation.
i guess that is the difference between you and me. i believe that all have a chance to receive and believe on Him and you don't.
i shouldn't say anything else. have a great day.
phil
That is what you believe-but what verse in the Bible says that?
Judas is called the Son of Perdition-Judas believed on Jesus, and where is he now-LOST!
John 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; [b]that the scripture might be fulfilled.
From the beginning scripture declared HE MUST BE LOST-now how is that you say, he had hope to be redeemed? When Jesus said that the scriptue had to be fulfilled..
I could make the same argument as far as you saying God loves the world, but then later on in John tells us NOT to love the world.
But clearly John is not telling us to not love the unsaved! He would be contradictoring himself. We are not to love the world in that we are not to have a desire to be conformed to the world. We are also not to love the world in a materialistic sense either.
You could argue your point on that passage, but in order to do so you will need to wrestle it out of context. I wouldnt want to see you do that.
Krispy
"truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent" (acts 17:30) please do not try to explain it away as "all kinds of men in all kinds of places".That is what you believe-but what verse in the Bible says that?
can we please differenciate between having a chance and God forknowing who is the elect and who is not. just because He knew judas would betray Him does not mean that He never had a chance to believe. it merely means that He knew what judas would choose and used it for His purposes.Judas is called the Son of Perdition-Judas believed on Jesus, and where is he now-LOST!John 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
From the beginning scripture declared HE MUST BE LOST-now how is that you say, he had hope to be redeemed? When Jesus said that the scriptue had to be fulfilled..
i hope that helps somewhat. i appreciate you discussing this brother.
phil
[b]Deuteronomy 30:19[i]I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore [b]choose life
[b]Joshua 24:15[i]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, [b]choose you this day whom ye will serve
Sounds like to me that God is giving His chosen people here a [b]choice
And what about all the books of the Prophets? Why would God issue so many warnings to Israel to turn back to Him if He predestined what was to happen anyway? And why all the warnings [b]TO BELEIVERS
If no one has a choice in the matter of whether or not they are saved, then why does God need to warn them of anything? That book is written to believers just as much as Romans is.
The vast majority of the Bible simply says this: "Choose you this day whom you will serve"... and "Choose Life". The 4 or 5 verses that Calvinist use must be interpretted wrong because the way y'all interpret them go against the rest of the scriptures from beginning to end.
Krispy
Hi Blazed,
Your posts made me click the reply button, but the following comments aren't solely for you. I'm just making a few general observations.
Earlier in the thread, I quoted 2 Cor 5, where Paul describes the whole mission of any apostle, as being to entreat unbelievers to turn to God and be reconciled to Him, [u]because He has [i]already[i]not imputed their sin to them[i][b]but to Christ
Why not just accept this?
Then add to it, the His sheep hear His voice, and that's why only some men respond to the call.
The main .... can I call it a [i]problem?[u]now
Of course, all who believe - and all who don't - are also in the 'now' of the I AM. But faith brings this relationship out of dissonance, and into peace.
I had never encountered this kind of Calvinism - which has led to so many threads on SI - during my whole life, (although I'd heard about it, as if it was a thing of the past - which it was in Scotland, as it can cause much dispute over who is entitled to share the breaking of bread), and I honestly think that if those who promote Calvinism in the way that it is portrayed here - as an account of God's [u]choosing
The [u]only[u]He[i]in their experience[u]allow[b]His death was sufficient for the salvation of every man who has ever lived or will live[i]hearts[u]to Him[i]not[i]excludes some
Central to any [i]future
"truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent" (acts 17:30) please do not try to explain it away as "all kinds of men in all kinds of places".
LoveHim wrote:That is what you believe-but what verse in the Bible says that?
Judas is called the Son of Perdition-Judas believed on Jesus, and where is he now-LOST!John 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
The only problem is, when Peter said that: Judas was already dead-already swept into eternity in his lost state.
If Calvinism be true... then why should I, as an individual, give a hoot about missions? God will save those He has already decided He's gonna save anyway... regardless of what I do.
But then again, that would be me choosing to disobey God. Or am I really choosing to obey? Or did God decide at the foundation of the earth to make me decide to disobey? And if He made me disobey the guilt of my sin is no longer on me... it's on Him.
And doesnt that make God a sinner? I cant be held responsible for the choices GOD made about how I would behave!
If God makes us all do what we do... then why is there a judgement seat?
Krispy
KrispyKrittr wrote:
If Calvinism be true... then why should I, as an individual, give a hoot about missions? God will save those He has already decided He's gonna save anyway... regardless of what I do.But then again, that would be me choosing to disobey God. Or am I really choosing to obey? Or did God decide at the foundation of the earth to make me decide to disobey? And if He made me disobey the guilt of my sin is no longer on me... it's on Him.
And doesnt that make God a sinner? I cant be held responsible for the choices GOD made about how I would behave!
If God makes us all do what we do... then why is there a judgement seat?
Krispy
yup...you are begining now krispy to come to the "center" of the problem with calvinism....as i said earlier, calvinism has painted itself into a corner and has to make verses mean something else then they clearly say. Now i am no arminian either , i am tired calvinist say you must be one or the other. I think it is deeper then this. But if calvinism is true...you would never have to do mission, i know if you love God you will obey him and take pleasure in it...but, if it is true you wouldent have to do it. And you would never have to read your bible, attend one single meeting, or even pray one single prayer... prayer also just seem like one big waste of time since we cant really effect anything because God already chose if my kids will be saved or not.....
so really, there is no point in any of the activities we do. God already decided everything and we just go through the plan.... in one sense he has his purposes that will be fulfilled, but i think calvinism has stretched it to far into every single detail.
God is sovereign as you say, and he can sovereignly save someone if he which, and sovereignly keep them, and sovereignly erase their names in his book of life as one verse clearly says in Rev. i know i know...that verse dont really mean that because then calvinism would be wrong.... i know....
KrispyKrittr wrote:
If Calvinism be true... then why should I, as an individual, give a hoot about missions?Krispy
Well this is how George Whitfield answered that question to a similiar degree of John Wesley:
First, you say that if this be so (i.e., if there be an election) then is all preaching vain: it is needless to them that are elected; for they, whether with preaching or without, will infallibly be saved. Therefore, the end of preaching to save souls is void with regard to them. And it is useless to them that are not elected, for they cannot possibly be saved. They, whether with preaching or without, will infallibly be damned. The end of preaching is therefore void with regard to them likewise. So that in either case our preaching is vain, and your hearing also vain. Page 10, paragraph 9.
(Whitfield's response)-O dear Sir, what kind of reasoning—or rather sophistry—is this! Hath not God, who hath appointed salvation for a certain number, appointed also the preaching of the Word as a means to bring them to it? Does anyone hold election in any other sense? And if so, how is preaching needless to them that are elected, when the gospel is designated by God himself to be the power of God unto their eternal salvation?
Simply put, the point of missions would be:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God UNTO salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek
Also, as a sidenote to Krispy: I am not trying to persuade you that calvinism is true-just maybe trying to show that one belief of theirs has truth to it. I am not calvinist
Also, as a sidenote to Krispy: I am not trying to persuade you that calvinism is true-just maybe trying to show that one belief of theirs has truth to it. I am not calvinist
but , we have to test this doctrine :-)
lets imagine this senario, God forbid it would take place, but lets use our minds. Here it is:
"no one ever did one single thing to win one single soul"
would the elect still be saved?
i am just curios what calvinist think?
O dear Sir, what kind of reasoning—or rather sophistry—is this! Hath not God, who hath appointed salvation for a certain number, appointed also the preaching of the Word as a means to bring them to it? Does anyone hold election in any other sense? And if so, how is preaching needless to them that are elected, when the gospel is designated by God himself to be the power of God unto their eternal salvation?
Seems to me that it is Whitfield who isnt making any sense. Wesley simply came to the same conclusions I have about Calvinism, and countless others who are of the same rather unsophisticated intellect as me.
Wesley makes a whole lot more sense to me than Whitfield. (Please note that I have some serious issues with some of Wesley's doctrines too!)
I like what Tozer said. :-) Unfortunately, I have tried to avoid this whole subject, but when it beings to be talked about in your fellowship, one is forced to deal with it. I feel like I am discussing this issue with a gun to my head... if that makes sense.
Krispy
Friends. I really want participate in, but I just got home from surgery. So I'll be out of it for a day or so.
God's grace to you all.
roaringlamb wrote:
Friends. I really want participate in, but I just got home from surgery. So I'll be out of it for a day or so.God's grace to you all.
I will remember you in prayer brother
God's grace to you as well. take care man. hope you feel better soon.God's grace to you all.
phil
If God leaves it up to us to choose Christ:
1. could it have been possiable that No Man would have chosen Christ for their salvation?
2. Would God have allowed Christ's sacrifice to have been in Vain?
P.S. I hope you feel better Roaring Lamb
andy
I think it's time I cast my vote too.
[b]"A"
Remember - the world is watching and after 3 days and 21 pages - they may want to know.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Greetings brother
MY answer to your question "Who did Christ die for?" Me! Jesus died for me thats what the Word says.
In your post you asked "Who's sin did Christ die for?"
My answer is Mine! That to, is my understanding of the Word.
And so the answer is Me...You...Us :-)
God Bless you brother and please know that you will be in my prayers as you work this out with the brothers and sisters that you are fellowshipping with.
MJ
Friends. I really want participate in, but I just got home from surgery. So I'll be out of it for a day or so.
Hey bro... I truly hope and pray that you have a quick recovery!
I hope God pre-ordained from the foundation of the earth that you will recover quickly... cuz if He didnt... :-?
(Just having a little fun with ya!)
Krispy
Hi Krispy...
I would also have to vote "A." Why?
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that[b]any[/b] should perish, but that[b]all[/b] should come to repentance."- II Peter 3:9
It seems that Christ's death provides us with an [u]opportunity
In addition, the more extreme forms of Calvinism remind me quite a bit of Universalism. The "choice" for repentance seems to be removed, since people erroneously define "predestined" as "prechosen." Hypercalvinism seems to relegate us to the status of robots, that none of our own choices have any sort of consequences. Yet oddly, we are still tempted by the things of this world. I have known very sincere believers (even preachers of holiness) who have walked away from God in order to fulfill the lusts of their flesh. Is it proper to allege that they were never truly "believers?" While they may have never obtained final salvation, they remind me of individuals who fled from the wrath to come, but then have chosen the temporary pleasures of this world over the Eternity that awaits.
If we could simply understand that God sees our lives and ultimate end from a timeless perspective of Eternty (in which He is still the Beginning and the End), then perhaps we would understand some of the language that He uses. However, God's plan for this Earth was to create a race modeled after Him -- but with a free will. This free will allows us to choose him, remain with him, or choose to fulfill our own lusts. My choice is to remain with the Lord. However, the possibility is always at the door in the form of the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes and the pride of life. They bid me come, but I choose life with my Lord over the temporary pleasures of sin for a season. Perhaps we see "salvation" from a current Earthy position, while God sees "salvation" from an Eternal timelessness?
The Word of God is expressly clear: To result of those who die in continuous sin is ETERNAL DAMNATION. Whether or not this means that such individuals were truly ever saved is pointless. The bottom line is DON'T WALK AWAY (or "run ahead") FROM GOD. The result is disaster.
Just my two cents.
;-)
Exod 12:23 "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you."
What happened if they CHOOSE not to apply the blood?
What happened if an Egyptian applied the blood?
No, I have not read all of Augustine’s writings against the Manicheans.
You write: To assume that these men knew nothing of the Church Father’s writings is preposterous as that is where much of their ideas came from.
I’m not sure who “these men” are and what “ideas” you refer to. If you’re talking about Calvin and Augustine’s idea of predestination you won’t find it espoused by orthodox Christians of the first three centuries. For instance Justin Martyr wrote, c. 160, “Neither do we maintain that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer. Rather, we maintain that each man acts rightly or sins by his free choice.” (vol. 1 pg. 190 of the ANF) Or Clement of Alexandria, c. 195 said, “Neither praises nor censures, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of inclination or disinclination, and if evil is involuntary…In no respect is God the author of evil. But since free choice and inclination originates sin… punishments are justly inflicted.” (vol.2 pg. 319)
These ideas are very different than those taught by Augustine/Luther/Calvin. God is in no way the Author of evil, He does not arbitrarily predestine anyone to sin and hell.
(Please note that these quotations are not proof texts, these are very representative. I encourage all to read the early Christians writings for yourself.)
You write: Now if we simply return to the Nicene Creed, or even pre-Nicene creed, we expose ourselves to the heresies of which these were written to refute. We could I suppose forget all about justification by faith alone, because that came after the Nicene creed too, and while we're at it, we could all head straight back to Rome.
To this very interesting statement I say the following:
1.\tNo matter what, there are always going to be heresies. That’s why we must take the entire testimony of SCRIPTURE and not proof text to support our bias
2.\tI thought Reformed folks believed in Sola Scriptura. If the Protestant notion of “justification by faith alone” is a doctrine that came into the church hundreds of years after the close of the NT why not forget about it? Find out what the Lord and His Apostles really taught. That is assuming that Biblical/Apostolic Christianity is your goal, not Reformation “orthodoxy”.
3.\tHead back to Rome? The Pre-Nicene Christians were by no means Roman Catholic. They held no such doctrines as Papal infallibility (or even supremacy of the Bishop of Rome), worship of Mary, veneration of images, the practice of indulgences, penance, or transubstantiation.
To respond briefly to your statement about works righteousness let me quote two well known Christian teachers, who’s teachings are to often overlooked.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
These teachings taken from Matt. 7.21-27, 18.23-35, 25.31-46, and James 2.24 are clearly saying that God forgives and saves men by grace fully apart from works, other than having faith to ask, but you and I must obey Christ and endure to the end to be finally saved.
You write: I suppose too that you are familiar with the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD, which dealt with the Arian heresy of Christ not being God? This would have to be left out if we went back to pre-Nicene times or thought.
Please don’t try to say that the doctrine of Christ’s deity was something not established until the Nicene or Chalcedonian Councils. The Ante Nicene Fathers are FILLED with declarations of Christ’s full divinity and equality with the Father in nature.
You write: Of course there is the Athanasian Creed which laid the ground work for the trinity, and was against those who denied the trinity. So we would have to give this up as well.
My friend this is a very false statement. The doctrine of the Trinity was well established long before the Athanasian, Chalcedonian, of Nicene creeds were formulated. Clement of Rome, c. 96 said, “Do we not have one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us?” (vol. 1 pg. 17) Athenagoras c. 175 said, “Who then, would not be astonished to hear men called atheists who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order?” (vol. 2 pg. 133) Even the term “Trinity” predates these creeds. Tertullian, c. 212 said, “But in our desire to show the divine benefits bestowed upon us by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which Trinity is the fountain of all holiness…” (vol. 4 pg. 256)
You write: Oh how much we would lose if only we would just go back to pre-Nicene ideology.
Yes, we lose many man-made additions to the faith, and regain many Biblical doctrines and a lifestyle radically different from the world. My friend, the Truth of God’s Word is not changed, negated, or established by any ecclesiastical system. The Lord Jesus told His Apostles that the Spirit would lead them into all Truth. Paul said that if anyone preached a gospel different to the one that had been preached let him be accursed. Jude said that the faith was once for all delivered to the Saints. The Faith of our Fathers does not change any more than Christ does. I implore all of us, and I say this to my own heart, let us cease to look to the long complicated statements of men’s dogma, even though it may be sound, and look to God’s Word, and the historic Faith. And lets not have a Christianity that is simply orthodox but that is radical, that causes us to separate ourselves from the world as we follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Let us follow the example of Paul and the Apostles, and the early Christians who did not give mere intellectual agreement to Christian doctrine but who laid down their very lives for Christ.
You write:“Calvinism is clearly rooted in Gnosticism” Can you provide proof of this?
Perhaps I should have said, “Calvinism is clearly revives Gnostic doctrine.” Origen, c. 225, writing against the Gnostics said, “They essentially destroy free will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” Also Iranaeus, c. 180, wrote to refute the Marcionites (a quasi-Gnostic sect) who argued that God was the author of sin, citing the OT account of God hardening Pharaohs heart, which is a favorite proof text of Calvinists(vol. 1 pg.502). Yes, as you stated, “the ideas of Calvinism were around long before Calvin’s time.” They originated with one of the oldest and most dangerous heresies of all time.
Has anyone read a book by Dave Hunt called "What Love Is This?".
I'm about 1/3 of the way thru it, and I think it's excellent. I highly recommend it for Calvinists and non-Calvinists.
Krispy
Has anyone read a book by Dave Hunt called "What Love Is This?"
Brother may I caution you in reading that book, and not because I am a Calvinist, but because we are both zealous for the truth.
Sadly Hunt makes many accusations in this book which are unfounded, or completely off base. He quotes portions of Calvinist or Reformed writings that appeal to his agenda without providing what surrounds the quotations.
I post these links to look at if you so desire, and appeal to you to look into these things-
[url=http://vintage.aomin.org/huntvsspurgeon.html]Dave Hunt vs. Charles Spurgeon
[url=http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2462]Dave Hunt
Lastly brother, I would also recommend that you read this book written by Dave Hunt and James White-[url=http://www.amazon.com/Debating-Calvinism-Five-Points-Views/dp/1590522737]Calvinism Five Points Two Views
Test all things brother, and when Hunt quotes something, try to find the original from where the quote is taken from. You'll be very surprised ;-)
Sadly Hunt makes many accusations in this book which are unfounded, or completely off base. He quotes portions of Calvinist or Reformed writings that appeal to his agenda without providing what surrounds the quotations.
Of course we should always use caution when reading something like this... written by a man (tho Calvinists dont seem to use their own advice when it comes to the writings of John Calvin). And I agree with you on that point.
What I find interesting is that all the Calvinists come out and say exactly what you said about this book.... yet reviews from the other side say exactly the opposite.
So far I have found this book to be excruciatingly documented. He provides his sources at the end of every chapter, not at the end of the book. And I have not yet found where he has taken anything out of context.
The only thing you didnt say was that Dave Hunt "doesnt understand Calvinism"... which is the most common defense that Calvinists used. As if you all believe that if one understands Calvinism then they would not reject it.
Hey, I understand Satanism... guess what... I reject it.
I understand soccer... guess what... I reject that too.
Now, Dave Hunt is a man, and his book is not scripture. But I have not found anything in this book that has been twisted or misrepresented. Dave Hunt is basically #1 on Calvinists most hated list... mainly because they cant refute him. Just ask White. Hunt has put White to shame. I've read their refutations of each other. White does not impress me at all.
Krispy
Brother here are some more examples of Hunt's selective editing of Calvin, and Spurgeon-
[url=http://corkfpc.com/6reasonshunt.html]Six Reasons Why...
[url=http://www.corkfpc.com/huntmisunderstandings.html]Hunt's Misquoting of Spurgeon
[url=http://www.corkfpc.com/huntcloud.html]Hunt Clarifications
May it be noted that I am not trying to sway anyone one way or the other, for ultimately God Himself must reveal what is true, and what is not. I simply desire that the facts be presented to people, so that they at least understand the tactics used(by both sides at times)to undermine the other side.
But ultimately, one must choose which is Biblical because you cannot stand in the middle. Either God is sovereign and He alone rules and dictates all things including salvation, or man is free to dictate what God does, and God is at the whim of man and man's decisions.
Since there is no such thing as "free will" as every man is bound in sin until he is freed by Christ, it seems wrong to even begin from that point. It is like building an argument for Christmas based on the existence of Santa Claus.
Brother Krispy, I pray that God's grace will absolutely floor you as you study these things as it has me, and that an all consuming love for Christ will flow from your heart because He first loved you, and gave Himself for you.
God's grace to you brother.
Well brother... I have been studying Calvinism, and reading authors on both sides of the debate... and I reject it.
Having said that, I know true Calvinist will now label me an Arminian, which I am not. Most Calvinists see only black and white, so they label anyone who isnt a true blue Calvinist an Arminian.
I am neither.
Now, I will point out that Hunt err's when he mentioned that Bunyon was not a Calvinist... it is quite clear that he was. But so far, in my reading of this book, Bunyon has been mentioned once... and in context it was where Hunt was listing theologians and Christian thinkers who were NOT Calvinists (because Calvinists insist the great theologians were ALL Calvinists... a lie)... and I'll give Hunt a pass that he may have inadvertantly added Bunyon to the list by mistake.
Non Calvinists who have given Hunts book great reviews have also pointed out this mistake. It's not a big secret, and has been corrected in the latest printings of this book.
Now... you say your interested in being factual, then why have you not added any links from the other side supporting Hunt? You've only posted links that support YOUR position. Doesnt that make you guilty of what you've accused Hunt of doing?
Here are some excellent links from the other side of the debate:
[url=http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/debating-calvinism.html]DEBATING CALVINISM
Roaringlamb... rest assured that I love you, brother. But after having studied this issue (and continuing to study this issue) I find that Calvinism is error. Period.
I find that Calvinism is very dangerous to the spiritual lives of believers, and is very dangerous when it comes to evangelism.
I'm almost getting to the point where I am as passionate about this issue as I am the KJV issue.
Krispy
By the way... have you actually read the book? Or have you just read [i]about
If you havent actually read the book then there is no point in continuing to debate it.
Krispy
have you actually read the book?
Yes I read it, and also George Bryson's book "Calvinism Weighed and Found Wanting".
We had to read these when I was in school, as they were supposed to do away with Calvinism once and for all.
If you would be willing, there is a very affordable version of John Calvin's Institutes put out by Hendrickson Publishers. I would recommend reading it, and seeing if what Hunt says that Calvin says is really what Calvin says.
It amazes me that Hunt can speak with so much "authority" on something he knows very little about. For example when he says that Calvinism kills evangelism, does he not know that the vast majority of early missionaries were Calvinists?
Does he even bother to list that Spurgeon wrote a book called "The Soul Winner"?
What of the Genevan Calvinists who were killed in Rome in the 1500's for preaching the Gospel?
His claims on this point alone do not jive with historical reality, and this only one small portion of his argument against Calvinism.
Another point he likes to make is the "whosoever" of John 3:16. But no Calvinist would ever deny that whosoever believes will be saved. No Christian would as that is what the Scriptures teach, whosoever will may come.
But Hunt as many others are ignorant of the Greek verbs used by John in these verses.
For instance in John 3:16, the verb form of "pisteo" is Present Active Participle Nominative Singular Masculine. Without going into a Greek lesson, let us just look at the "singular" part.
It is singular because it is saying that the ONE who is believing will have eternal life. It has nothing to do with universality at all, but rather individuals that believe.
Now the "whosoever will may come" passage is Revelation 22:17, and every verb in that passage is singular meaning again individuals. So it should say, "the one who is willing, let him come."
So again Hunt argues against the plain meaning of Scripture and uses an emotional plea to steer folks away from what is clearly written.
And yes, the TR says the same thing ;-)
So now the question still becomes, how is a man willing to come to Christ? Wasn't the promise of the New Covenant a new heart given by God-
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
This is regeneration, or the new birth, which makes a man willing to come. However notice who is doing the renewing in those passages, it's not man.
It amazes me that Hunt can speak with so much "authority" on something he knows very little about. For example when he says that Calvinism kills evangelism, does he not know that the vast majority of early missionaries were Calvinists?
Since you read his book then you should know that Hunt addresses this question.
His claims on this point alone do not jive with historical reality, and this only one small portion of his argument against Calvinism.
Of course you say this... because you believe history according to Calvinists. I'm finding that Calvinists have an alternative history not necessarily based on facts either.
But Hunt as many others are ignorant of the Greek verbs used by John in these verses.
You state this as tho you know for a fact that Hunt is ignorant of the Greek verbs used by John in these verses.
So again Hunt argues against the plain meaning of Scripture and uses an emotional plea to steer folks away from what is clearly written.
Well, I dont see it that way. What I see is Calvinists changing the meaning of words in the Bible (all, mankind, world, etc) so they can cram Calvinism into scripture.
If a person totally ignorant of Calvinism reads John 3:16 he comes away believing that God so loved [b]the world
If a person totally ignorant of Calvinism reads 2 Peter 3:9 he comes away believing that God is not willing that [b]any[b]all
Thank the Lord we have Calvinists, with their elite intellect, to tell us what our Bible [b]really
Just a little tongue-n-cheek, bro... nothing personal.
Krispy
You state this as tho you know for a fact that Hunt is ignorant of the Greek verbs used by John in these verses.
Perhaps ignorant is a wrong word, yet if he was really knowledgeable about Calvinism, he would go straight to the Scriptures, and he would use exegetical truths to disclaim the ideology in the system known as Calvinism.
You simply cannot get around the verb forms, and language that is used to make it mean something it does not mean.
Nor can you make a passage mean something that is contrary to another passage. It takes alot of work.
Well, I dont see it that way. What I see is Calvinists changing the meaning of words in the Bible (all, mankind, world, etc) so they can cram Calvinism into scripture.
So then will every man, woman, and child ever created be saved?
I think I and others have shown from Scripture that "world" does not mean all people everywhere, and neither does "all" mean everyone.
If a person totally ignorant of Calvinism reads John 3:16 he comes away believing that God so loved the world.
But that is not what is being debated, just because God loves the world does not mean He will save all the world. Even the next part of John 3:16 limits who will be saved. Only the ones who believe will be saved, and we know that not everyone will be saved.
As one grows of course, they can look at how John uses the word "kosmos", and how he meant it to be interpreted. But this has nothing to do with the simplicity of faith in Christ.
If a person totally ignorant of Calvinism reads 2 Peter 3:9 he comes away believing that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Sure, but as one grows in their understanding of Scripture, they understand differently. I do not believe much of what I though when I first became a Christian because of study of Scripture. But this has nothing to do with salvation, but growth, and learning to rightly divide the Scriptures.
Thank the Lord we have Calvinists, with their elite intellect, to tell us what our Bible really means. Left on our own, the Holy Spirit isnt able to lead us into all truth without the help of Calvinists.
As if the intellect was something to be feared in a regenerate man. The Holy Spirit uses men to help us does He not?
Just a little tongue-n-cheek, bro... nothing personal.
Wouldn't take it personal brother, I know you too well ;-)
Nor can you make a passage mean something that is contrary to another passage. It takes alot of work.
...and Calvin was a hard workin' man, my brutha!
:-)
Krispy
If a person totally ignorant of Calvinism reads John 3:16 he comes away believing that God so loved the world.
If a person totally ignorant of Calvinism reads 2 Peter 3:9 he comes away believing that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Thank the Lord we have Calvinists, with their elite intellect, to tell us what our Bible really means. Left on our own, the Holy Spirit isnt able to lead us into all truth without the help of Calvinists.
Krispy,
"Toungue and cheek" aside my "brutha" that still does not come off as a very good argument.
According to that kind of thinking, then what would you say about Romans chapter 9?
A person totally ignorant of any system of theology, reading Romans 9, would on it's face, have to conclude that God chooses some men to pour out His Love upon, and some men to pour out His Wrath upon.
How about...
"Jacob have I Loved and Esau have I hated"
If an individual reads that statement in Romans 9, with no outside commentary, not from Calvin, not from Finney, not from Luther....
What does that individual conclude?
"Oh, by the way, the title for this thread should have read " For whom did Christ die?"
Just and elite reformed "brutha" tryin' to help you out!
;-)
KrispyKrittr wrote:If a person totally ignorant of Calvinism reads John 3:16 he comes away believing that God so loved
[b]the world[/b] .If a person totally ignorant of Calvinism reads 2 Peter 3:9 he comes away believing that God is not willing that
[b]any[/b] should perish, but that[b]all[/b] should come to repentance.Thank the Lord we have Calvinists, with their elite intellect, to tell us what our Bible
[b]really[/b] means. Left on our own, the Holy Spirit isnt able to lead us into all truth without the help of Calvinists.
Krispy
These are the plain words of Jesus himself, and I wonder, if someone totally ignorant of Calvinism read this verse, what would they think:
Mt 26:28 -
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed [b]FOR MANY
Mr 14:24 -
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, [b]which is SHED FOR MANY
"MANY"-not ALL, Jesus own words right at the Last Supper.
I just wanted to pose a question.
In John 14:6 we read-
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Now it is believed(rightly so) that the "no man" means "no man", so that there are no persons who come to God except those who come through Christ, as the Greek word "dia" means.
So now when we read in John 6:44 that "no man" can come to Christ unless the Father draws them, how is it that the term gets changed?
After all the word for "no man" is "oudeis" in both passages, and means "no one".
John also uses the word "dunamai" for the word "come".
Thayer's Greek lexicon says the following about this word "dunamai "-
G1410
δύναμαι
dunamai
Thayer Definition:
1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one’s own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful
Part of Speech: verb
So literally, Jesus is telling this crowd that no one has the power, or ability to come to Him unless the Father draws them.
The word for "draw" is of interest as well. It is the word "helkuō/helkō", which means "to drag, to draw, to impel".
So again, literally Jesus is saying that no one has the power or ability to come to Him unless they are dragged, or impelled by the Father to do so. Which would clearly show us that man DOES NOT have natural ability to come to Christ.
Paul uses the word "dunamai" in this passage for the word "can"-
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither [b]can
Again we see that the natural man does not have the power or ability to know the things of the Spirit.
Roaringlamb,
We know no one can enter the Holy of Holies, where the Father is, except through Jesus Christ...Hebrews 10.
If you are separating the Trinity into three separate beings, then you will see this in a different light then scripture teaches.
The Lord our God is ONE God. Not Three Gods.
Therefore the Holy Spirit is drawing you to Christ through the preaching of the Cross.
If you re-read all of John 6, this is what the chapter is teaching.
Those who were first following Jesus were following Him because of miracles and food etc....but when Jesus confronted them, they said...This is a hard saying. Jesus was preaching....I am crucified with Christ..To eat my flesh and drink my blood.....this is what it means.
So, when Jesus Came full of GRACE and TRUTH, having the anointing of the Holy Spirit on Him, The whole of the Trinity was at work here....preaching the Gospel of Redemption.....ADDED: not the Gospel of the Kingdom John was preaching.
Our relationship is WITH the Father, through His Son, in the Power of the Holy Spirit.
Those, in the beginning of Joun 6 ,if you look, were following Jesus concerning an Earthly Ministry...teh Kingdom being restored to Israel...but ...Jesus said, Lets leave here before they try to make me *KING*.....
So the Father would not be drawing anyone to that Kingdom...((with the KING there all ready)))...yet the King is coming, but not then at that time.
This is what the emphasis is on John, and John 6.
The Gospelof Grace, not the Kingdom Reign.
Katy
A person totally ignorant of any system of theology, reading Romans 9, would on it's face, have to conclude that God chooses some men to pour out His Love upon, and some men to pour out His Wrath upon.
Yes, those who are ignorant of Romans 9-11 dealing specifically with Israel would come to the conclusion that God picks and chooses.
However God is LOVE and does not hate anyone...even Esau.
Does it say God hated Ishmael???? Yet isn't it also stated here as well concerning the choosing of Isaac.
Those ignorant to the remaining promises to Israel and Paul sums this whole subject up at the end of Romans 11, will completely misinterpret Romans 9.
Katy
The word "hate" that is used in the context of Romans 9 is not translated accurately by Hyper-Calvinists.
In English the word "hate" taken at face value is translated as "abhor". However, In Romans 9 the accurate translation of the word is "loved less". IE: Jacob have I loved, Esau have I loved less. God did not "abbor" Esau (or Edom). He simply loved Esau less because of his wickedness (and that of his descendants).
This is born out further by referring to Deut. 23:7 where Moses actually tells the Israelites NOT to abhor Edomites, because the Edomites are their brothers.
In Luke 14:26 we see this same word used where Jesus says that anyone who follows him must "hate" his father, mother, wife and children. Jesus clearly did not mean that we are to actually "abhor" our family (as this would contradict Commandment #5). Jesus meant that a disciple must love him first, and love his family less.
Also, I would highly recommend the "Arminian Perspectives" blog to anyone who is interested in an Arminian view to some of the questions posted here. Here is a great post on John 6:44: http://arminianperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/07/does-john-644-teach-irresistible-grace.html
Those ignorant to the remaining promises to Israel and Paul sums this whole subject up at the end of Romans 11, will completely misinterpret Romans 9.
And those ignorant of who the true Israel is will say that we misinterpret it.
But really katy, your view sounds nice and all, but answer what the text is saying.
You did not answer my question about the phrase "no man". Does that phrase suddenly change meaning between John 6 and John 14, when it is speaking of a similar theme?
And if no man comes to the Father but through the Son, but no man is able or has the power to come to the Son except for those who the Father draws, then the burden of proof falls upon your side to explain away both the Greek grammar, and John's usage of the same words.
It is interesting to hear people try to explain away passages that mean what they don't like, but then get literal over a single word like "world" or "whosoever".
I bet you don't take Jesus words on His blood and body in the bread and wine literally either ;-) .
I understand the Earthly kingdom thing, but also remember the inference to Christ bringing grace and truth is set against the Law that Moses brought.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to [b]bear the sins of MANY;
Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed [b]FOR MANY for the remission of sins.
Keith Daniel said:
God said if ANY man be in Christ, he is a new creation.
God commands ALL men, everywhere to repent.A young man went to Spurgeon and said, "Mr. Spurgeon, I've done a terrible thing! I led a man to Christ and I'm not sure if he's elected!" (Congregation laughs.)
And Spurgeon said, "Don't worry, brother, I'm sure God will forgive you if you led someone to Christ who's not elected." Then Spurgeon just walked away.
What a profound theological statement from one of the greatest theologians in the history of the world! Whosoever will, let him come.
BlazedbyGod wrote:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to[b]bear the sins of MANY;[/b] and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed
[b]FOR MANY for the remission of sins.[/b]
Many...as in...not all?
Romans 5:18-19: Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
These verses clarify that:
1) In the same way that Adam caused the fall of all men, Jesus' sacrifice was for all men.
2) "Many" taken in the context of this passage means "all". If not, then we must also say that not all were made sinners by Adam, which is clearly not the case (Romans 3:23).
Many as in All.
PizzaMan wrote:
Romans 5:18-19: Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.These two verses in a row in context show us that "many" can best be interpreted to mean "all". If not, then we must also say that not all were made sinners by Adam, which is clearly not the case.
Actually, it is saying that "ALL" can and does mean "MANY"-not the other way around. Just look at the order of the verse and words.
All as in Many
If you give me ALL of the items in your pocket, it can be many items (or few)-but you can't give me many of the items in your pocket that is ALL of the items.
Romans 5:18-19: Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
All those in Adam
so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
All those in Christ, as not every human being is justified by the death of Christ, only those who have faith.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
Those in Adam, who are not in Christ
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Those in Christ. Unless you wish to make the text say that all men will be made righteous.
As for the topic of this thread, Christ died for those whom He represents before the throne of God. As the High Priest, He took His blood into the Holiest of all, the very presence of God, and there He gave it as an offering.
Now of course we must look back into the OT for the symbolism of this. Did the high priest of Israel offer blood for the Philistines, Amalekites, Babylonians?
No, because they were not the covenant people of God.
Scripture is clear when it says, "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."
Christ intercession is what brings His sheep to faith.
How great is the love of Jesus, and how good it is to know that Jesus died for everyone in a real way that matters!
Back to Romans 5:18. If all means all in the first part of the verse (and it does), then all means all in the second part of the EXACT SAME verse. All means all. It's simple to see this with a straight reading of God's word.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Christ died for all men, but the forgiveness of sins is only applied to those who accept the gift of salvation. Going back one verse earlier in Romans 5 illustrates this point.
Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
So Jesus died for all, and those who receive the gift have the sacrifice applied to them. Keep in mind "receiving a gift" is not compulsory, it is a choice, or it's not a gift.
This is explained further by Paul in 1 Timothy 4:10 ...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
The verse makes it clear as day that atonement is for all, and it is applied to those who believe.
This is born out again in 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Notice this verse actually says whole world. John makes it clear beyond all argument: whole world. All means all. Whole world means whole world. Scripture couldn't be any clearer.
In fact, 2 Peter 2:1 makes a point of showing that Jesus even died for false prophets headed for destruction! But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves..
So, Jesus died for me, he died for you, his sacrifice provided atonement even for false prophets. Jesus died for all.
This all boils down to the character of God as taught by scripture. God loves everyone! Jesus died for everyone! But unfortunately for some Hyper-Calvinists their man-made system of logic must come before the teaching of God's holy word.
AMEN AND WELCOME PIZZAMAN !!!
I don't know why, but the LORD told me to say HI to you since you first signed onto SI.
So "Hi".
P.S. I prefer thin-crust with sausage btw. :-D
Thanks HE_Reigns. :) Nice to meet you. I actually just found SI site a few weeks ago while looking for audio of Corrie ten Boom - who is my kind of Reformed preacher!
Very cool site.
Yes, Corrie's a must read for sure. And Richard Wurmbrand.
Bless your heart and God Bless your stay here.
I'm sure He will bless us with you.
(Hey, don't ask how - right?!)
Christ died for all men, but the forgiveness of sins is only applied to those who accept the gift of salvation. Going back one verse earlier in Romans 5 illustrates this point.
Please forgive me for not welcoming you here, I did not notice you were new. Welcome aboard.
Now, please show me in the text you quoted where it implies the following-"those who accept the gift of salvation".
So Jesus died for all, and those who receive the gift have the sacrifice applied to them. Keep in mind "receiving a gift" is not compulsory, it is a choice, or it's not a gift.
So then Jesus died for some who are in hell? He failed to do what He set out to do, which was bring "all that the Father had given Him, and raise them up the last day"?
Christ died for His sheep, look at the following from John 10-
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
John 10:26 But [b]ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
John 10:27 [b]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Now what else does Jesus say about these sheep?
John 10:28 [b]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish
Notice who gives life here, and than remember why the others did not believe. Jesus did not say that were not Hi sheep because they did not believe, but instead said that they did not believe because they were not His sheep.
Notice this verse actually says whole world. John makes it clear beyond all argument: whole world. All means all. Whole world means whole world. Scripture couldn't be any clearer.
Well this would be ok if indeed God had propitiated His wrath towards the whole world. But since He has not, and even John 3:36 tells us that God's wrath abides upon those who do not believe, this passage cannot mean that every human in the world will not suffer the wrath of God.
If Christ was the propitiation or wrath atoning sacrifice for all of mankind, then why would any go to Hell?
You cannot say that it is because of unbelief, because if indeed Christ died for all of their sins, is not unbelief a sin as well? And if they are punished for not believing even though they have been forgiven for not believing, what kind of god have you now created?
Now logically, and hermenuetically, we must understand that the Jewish mind was completely opposed to anyone outside of Israel having salvation. For theirs alone was the Messiah and all others were scum and sinners who deserved what they got. So John is making the point that Christ is the wrath atoning sacrifice for not only the Jewish people he was addressing, but also of all kinds of people.
Note his words in the Revelation-
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood [b]out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Notice these are purchased out of every group, but not every group is purchased.
In fact, 2 Peter 2:1 makes a point of showing that Jesus even died for false prophets headed for destruction! But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves..
If you search around through the forum topics, I have addressed this before. I will simply tell you, it does not mean what are making it mean, and the Greek language proves that.
This all boils down to the character of God as taught by scripture. God loves everyone! Jesus died for everyone! But unfortunately for some Hyper-Calvinists their man-made system of logic must come before the teaching of God's holy word.
God may love everyone as you say, but He will not save everyone. Jesus did not die for everyone, or everyone would be saved.
Now as for the hyper-Calvinist thing, do you understand the difference between hyper and regular?
Also is it wrong to logically look at the Scriptures? Or is it only wrong when the outcome doesn't jive with tradition?
Just chiming in here to perhaps clarify something...
Did Christ die for all people? There is no doubt that Christ's death brought certain benefits to those who will be saved as well as to many who will not be saved. However, saying Christ "died" for all men is not the same as claiming He "atoned" for all men.
Christ literally atoned - that is, actually paid for, bore, and made a complete satisfaction on behalf of the sins of only a limited number of people, namely the Elect. To deny this is either to deny that Christ truly atoned for any sins on the cross, or to proclaim that all people will be in heaven seeing as all sins would then be paid for. Have you understood what an atonement is? What propitiation means?
The offer is to all on condition of belief. Only the elect will believe because only a regenerate man voluntarily chooses Christ for his savior. Regeneration is the gift of God, producing faith.
The will makes the choice, but its choice is based upon its nature. Cows have a will but they cannot choose to hunt for animals to eat. Their inability to choose in this case is not because of a broken will but because of a nature which is inherently and unchangeably determined to eat grass, not to hunt live prey. Likewise, the natural man has a will yet it is subject to his nature. His nature is sinful. The scriptures describe natural man as dead, deaf, and blind - natural man cannot perceive the goodness and wisdom of God's offer in Christ. The natural man will and does always choose to reject the gospel - not because of a broken will but because of a corrupt nature. God must first regenerate men if they are to be saved.
The price of this regeneration was paid for on the cross for a limited number of undeserving sinners. Does that number include you, friend? It does if you will believe. Call out Christ's name to God for grace, and in calling you will hear the answer.
Hope that states it clearly!
:-)
But really katy, your view sounds nice and all, but answer what the text is saying.
Roaringlamb,
We have in 2nd Thess, that the wrath of God is coming on those who rejected the Gospel, or the Love of the Truth that they might be saved. Who is the TRUTH...Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth and the LIFE.
We know YES, the Power of the Blood of Jesus or Paul also says, the POWER of the CROSS is effectual to those who receive.....
Those who are lost and face judgement will be judged for rejecting Jesus Christ. Sin has been Judged, and when you receive Jesus, IN HIM, He took your Judgement and Wrath upon Him.....
If the sin debt is paid for all, then Jesus is and has full authority to judge those who have rejected Him.
People who die in their sin have made a choice to do so.
Jesus came into the World to save sinners. ALL are sinners!
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:15-17
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift [u][b]came upon ALL men
What came upon ALL Men.....THE GIFT OFFERED!
You see how taking Romans 9 out of context does not work well with these verses.
If you want to literally say God Chose Jacob PERIOD, then ONLT Jacob and Israel are saved......no mention here at all of Gentiles period...correct. For only Jacob was named ISRAEL, Not even Isaac was renamed Israel. So anyone who is even more literal then you could say that God rejected the descendants of Ismael and Edom for all eternity. But is that so....NO! Many Arabs today are Born Again.
These chapters in Romans 9-11 are laying down the whole plan of salvation, and speaks of teh SEED Jesus Christ, and teh line in which Jesus Christ comes.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, House of David....etc, . No one else can claim to have a Jesus Christ not rooted right here. Any other Jesus is anti-christ.
Katy
[u][b]Let’s Follow what Paul is saying in Romans 9.
Romans 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall [u][b]thy seed
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between [u][b]thy seed
Genesis 21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall [u][b]thy seed
[u][b]What Seed?
JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his [u][b] seed [u][b] thy seed [u]which is Christ
Romans 9:7
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall [u][b] thy seed
[u][b]Here clearly identifies ***Isaac***, not any of the other children of Abraham, RE: Ishmael.
Genesis 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply [u][b] thy seed [u][b] seed
[u][b]What Enemy:
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between[u][b] thy seed [u][b] seed
Genesis 22:18
And in thy [u][b] seed
Romans 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall [u][b]thy seed
John 7:42
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the [u][b] seed
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his [u][b] seed [u][b] thy seed
Acts 13:23
Of this man's [u][b] seed
Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in [u][b] thy seed
[u][b]Now Salvation is clarified that it is through FAITH, not the LAW
Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his [u][b] seed
Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the [u][b] seed
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the [u][b] seed
Romans 4:18
Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall [u][b]thy seed
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's [u][b] seed [u]and heirs according to the promise.
[u][b]What is the PROMISE?
Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive [u]the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, [u]ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
The Promise of the Spirit of the Life of Christ that set you free from the Law of SIN and Death....that came upon ALL men at the fall of Adam & Eve.....so is the GIFT of this Promise offered to ALL Men. Yet not ALL men will receive.
To as Many as receive Him, to them gave He the power to become the Sons of God.
[u][b]To Who?
TO AS MANY as receive Him.
Love in Christ
Katy
The fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, is at the second coming of Jesus Christ to earth, when out of SION will come a deliver to save Israel, Romans 11, Establish His Millennial Kingdom Reign, bind Satan for 1000 years, and after these things are fulfilled, throw death and hades into the lake of fire.
Here is the order of events:
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Part 3
When one is witnessing to: for example an Arab, who claim they are the seed of Abraham, as they do, because they are the descendants of Ismael, or that Allah is the same God as the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, these chapters in Romans 9-11 are a perfect place to take them.
No one can come to the Father except through His Son Jesus Christ, and there are no promises apart from Jesus Christ.
When God sent Moses into Egypt...it was to LET **MY** People GO....the descendants of Jacob, not those of Ismael or Esau.
They see themselves as seeds, yet the Bible totally qualifies only one seed...Jesus Christ.
In Romans 11, speaking of the root, and those grafted in. No Gentile is grafted into the Root, which is the Covenant made to Abraham that **All nations of the earth be blessed ((Spiritual Blessings))) apart from Jesus Christ through the promise of the Spirit.....stated in Galatians.....that the promise of the Spirit will come on the Gentiles. Those apart from this promise of the Spirit, even though they are Abraham's seed...Ishmael's descendants...are in bondage.
Israel *MINE ELECT*, are also called the Elect in Romans 11.
The fighting over the Land now, because the Arab Nations, believing they are Abraham Descends have a right to this land. However, this land was not promised to Abrahan through Ismael's descendants, but through Isaac and Jacob's.
The Bible, is about JESUS CHRIST, from Genesis to Revelation,
Love in Christ
Katy
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of MANY; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed FOR MANY for the remission of sins.
I love it... when it suits the Calvinist they will tell you that "all" doesnt mean "all", and "world" doesnt mean "world".... but here they claim that "many" really does mean "many"!
Thats kinda like making up your own rules during a pick up game of basketball. And it's also why I get a headache trying to keep up with the Calvinist. I need to create an excel spreadsheet just to keep up with what they say scripture doesnt really mean... etc etc. Anything that confusing cant be of God. God is not the author of confusion.
By the way, I do resent the implication that if you dont understand Calvinism then you dont have the Holy Spirit. The reasoning is that scripture can only be understood thru the enlightening of the Holy Spirit... which is 100% accurate. But what the Calvinist is saying is if you dont understand Calvinism then obviously you are not being taught of the Holy Spirit... or worse yet, you dont have the Holy Spirit (i.e. you're not saved).
Now everyone has played nice on this thread, but in the past on this forum Calvinists have actually told the rest of us that we are not saved because we are not Calvinists. I do want to pat everyone on the back for not bringing that type of idiocy into this thread... and that goes for both sides. Well done!
Krispy
Thats kinda like making up your own rules during a pick up game of basketball. And it's also why I get a headache trying to keep up with the Calvinist. I need to create an excel spreadsheet just to keep up with what they say scripture doesnt really mean... etc etc. Anything that confusing cant be of God. God is not the author of confusion.
Thing is…it’s not confusing to everyone…only some.
No scripture is for PRIVATE interpretation.
One only needs **Child Like** faith. How many children have a PHD in Theology?
Remember the Simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is our teacher, and can teach even a child.
Katy
Anything that confusing cant be of God. God is not the author of confusion.
Brother ever ponder the Trinity? It's confusing at times, but is the Trinity of God?
Even Peter spoke of some of the things that Paul wrote in this way-
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; [b]in which are some things hard to be understood
Just because something does not make sense to our natural minds does not mean it is not of God. Why does Christ say that bread and wine are His body and blood? Why does God give His Son to die a cruel death for His enemies?
Unless we study and learn, we will be confused, and though we will never have a full grasp upon the truth of Scripture, we are called to study to show ourselves approved unto God, and of course that dividing Paul speaks of is the division between Law and Gospel(but that's another topic altogether).
Brother many many people reject these truths simply because they do not want them to be true. They don't want to think that man is really wicked, and condemned, and worse yet dead to God until He gives them life.
The old Adam that remains in every believer even wishes that there was some "good" in them, but after conversion, we must understand that any good work done by us is the fruit of the Holy Spirit alone, and is to the glory of God.
Now allow me for a second to ask you a simple question. In your experience with God, did you birth yourself, or was there a moment when Christ made sense? When the things you had previously enjoyed(sinful things)were no longer ok?
Did you convert yourself? Or behind the scenes did God put His laws into your heart, and thus create a new ideal for living, ultimately living to now please the One who we previously hated, and offended.
I know from my own experience, one day the lights went on, and I did not turn them on. One day I did not care what God thought about my life, and then the next, I did, and I craved His word to direct and comfort me. And no I did not make a decision in a service of anything like that, but rather God sovereignly arranged the details in my life so that a man called me(wrong number mind you), and he shared Scriptures with me. God gave birth to me through this, and I can no more deny that He alone did it than I can deny the nose on my face.
He did it, not me. I was not searching for Him, but He foreknew me, and predestined me to be saved, or else I never would have been, because I would have gone on in my sin and never thought twice about it.
Katy-did wrote:
No scripture is for PRIVATE interpretation.One only needs **Child Like** faith. How many children have a PHD in Theology?
Remember the Simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is our teacher, and can teach even a child.
Katy
I know several people with limited educations (no college and poor grades in high school) that understand reformed theology (Calvinism) very well.
I think reformed theology bucks our natural way of thinking at times…at least for some of us…humans do tend to be humanistic after all.
But I would not say someone must have an above average intellect to understand Calvinism.
No scripture is for PRIVATE interpretation.
If you're going to quote it, at least quote it properly-
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
So, this is not saying what you're trying to make it say.
One only needs **Child Like** faith. How many children have a PHD in Theology?
No one has said anything to the contrary. There is nothing wrong with studying the Scriptures to show ourselves approved, yet this is not necessary for salvation.
The Holy Spirit is our teacher, and can teach even a child.
So do you think the Holy Spirit would conjure up the idea that poor ole' Jesus just couldn't save all the folks He wanted to, because though He created them, their free-will stopped Him.
If the Holy Spirit's main job is to testify and exalt Christ, how would He teach something so blatantly close to blasphemy?
Also Paul was writing what we know as Romans 9 to answer the natural question that was to come from his proclamation in Romans 8 of God's keeping of His people. That question being, "Paul if what you are saying is true, then why don't the Jews believe?"
Remember, there were no chapter divisions in Paul's letter, so look at verse 1 of Romans 9-
Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
See, he is telling them, I am not lying about what preceded this(Romans 8).
Then, he makes the point-
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Or, God's word is true, but not all of physical descent are of the spiritual family.
And also, if it was nations that were spoken of and not individuals in this chapter, how does this verse get interpreted?
"They are not all of the nation Israel who are of the nation Israel"
That makes absolutely no sense, and does not even fit with what Paul is saying.
Plus, please remember these words of Paul-
Romans 2:28 [b]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly
Romans 2:29 [b]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit
Also Paul was writing what we know as Romans 9 to answer the natural question that was to come from his proclamation in Romans 8 of God's keeping of His people. That question being, "Paul if what you are saying is true, then why don't the Jews believe?"
Didn't Paul answer that question as well in Romans 11, they were broken off so YOU could be grafted in, and then AFTER the fullness of the Gentiles, All Israel will be saved.
You asked this question......
So do you think the Holy Spirit would conjure up the idea that poor ole' Jesus just couldn't save all the folks He wanted to, because though He created them, their free-will stopped Him.
And you answered your own question,
Then, he makes the point-
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
but left out the remainder of the verse....****But In Isaac will thy seed be called****.
Again, You answered the question:
Plus, please remember these words of Paul-
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
OK How did Gentiles get included here, Paul is talking about Jews?
This is what I was saying about the seed, and the Promise of the Spirit in my last 3 posts. Galatians is a great parallel to Romans 9. That the promise of the Spirit would come to the Gentiles, Through the Covenants of Promise...(((stated in Ephesians))). Not by Hand picking people out. You see, when you hand pick who you want and who you don't .....the Covenants of Promise go right out the window. What need would there be for covenants? You see the same thing again in Galatians as Paul is talking about Covenants in his allegory. He's not talking about Picking people's names out of a hat.
Romans 9-11 is talking about Covenants, ending with and including the Covenant to National Israel, when they are brought back into the Promise Land (The Palestinian Covenant), When a deliver comes out of SION and all Israel will be saved.....The Davidic Covenant, when Jesus sits on the Throne of David...
You see, this is not laid out in Galatians. Why?, because Paul in all of Romans is laying out more then just the Church here in Romans 9-11. He's answering a question.....what about Israel
After Paul establishes Romans 6-8, that we receive the promise of the Holy Spirit when we have OBEYED that form of Doctrine once Given.....
What was that form of Doctrine.....John 6...to eat my flesh and drink my blood.....I am Crucified with Christ.
Again a parallel to this is Galatians where Paul actually and thoroughly explains ***true salvation***...NOT ELECTION.
"They are not all of the nation Israel who are of the nation Israel
Now you here have misquoted scripture...it does not say....Not all *National* Israel who are of the Nation of Israel, for there was no *NATION* of Israel when Paul wrote this.
It says, Not all Israel is Israel.
But I will give you a pass on that.
When Israel is back in the Land, and Jesus Christ comes to set up the Kingdom promised to Israel, THEN there will be a NATIONAL Israel, and then ALL Israel will be saved.
But those entering into the Millennial Kingdom , after the Great Tribulation will be flesh and blood, and will not be able to say as WE do...I am Crucified with Christ, and raised up with Him a New Creation.
The SPIRITUAL Blessings that come on the Gentile and Jew during the Church age, making ONE NEW MAN, in this way:
Colossians 2:
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.
So there is a Spiritual Israel, NOW, who belong to the Body of Christ...the Church.
And there will be an Earthly Israel....who will not be in their Glorified bodies like WE will be, when we reign and rule with Christ at this time.
So what Paul is laying down here has nothing to do with PERSONAL ELECTION of having your names picked out of a hat, but establishing the order of events...with some yet to come.
Those today who have hardened their hearts against Israel, and those promises yet to come to them, are compared to Pharaoh and Egypt...the world today, when Jesus Christ the Deliver will be the one coming this time, as Moses did the last time. You will see many comparisons of Judgement in Revelation to that of Moses when he went into Egypt.
I believe Satan will do everything to obscure this truth, even to the point of coming up wit a doctrine called Calvinism , to explain away these most important scriptures, in making it into something it is not.
Because Calvinism is a Dominion Theology, like all Dominion Theologies, who deny these promises to Israel, thinking they are bringing in a Kingdom of their own RE; JW's, Mormons,, or think as Reformed Theology does, that the Church replaced these promises to Israel. Reformed Calvinis Puritans believed America to be teh New Promised Land, and we God's New Chosen People, establishing or trying to a Theocracy on earth...totally disobedient to a Heavenly Calling out of the Church.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that you do not understand or even grasp Romans 9-11.
Love in Christ
Katy-Did
Thanks for the welcome RoaringLamb….I think. :)
How good it is to know with confidence that Jesus Christ died for the ungodly! While we were still sinners Jesus died for us. God spared not his own Son but delivered Him up for us all. God loved the world so much that he sent his son Jesus, and whoever believes will be saved. God is good, isn't he?
Let's take a close look at John 10. God's sheep are those who believe. A contextual reading of John 10 shows this. Anyone who believes is a sheep, and anyone can believe. Do not confuse "would not" in John 10 with "could not". Jesus said they WOULD NOT believe. He didn't say they COULD NOT believe. The huge difference is that they had a will of their own, different from the will of God. We know from the other gospels that it was the desire of Jesus that they believe (Luke 13:34). But they refused to.
John 3:36. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.. God's wrath is indeed on all, and it remains if we reject his Son. The key here is that "rejecting" is a choice we each make, not a capricious eternal decree forced on us by God.
You said: God may love everyone as you say, but He will not save everyone. Jesus did not die for everyone, or everyone would be saved.. I agree that God does love everyone. Your second statement, however, is a false dichotomy. you omit the fact that we can reject God (to our own ruin!). Thus a clear reading of the Bible teaches that Jesus died for everyone, and those who believe will be saved. Those who refuse to believe are not forgiven.
I'm going to stick with God's word instead of a man-made system. I honestly think anyone who teaches "God doesn't love" is a Hyper-Calvinist, and is putting their belief system ahead of God's word. I can appreciate it if you don't agree, maybe the term "High-Calvinist" is more friendly sounding.
C.S. Lewis said there are two types of people - those who say to God "Thy will be done.", and those to whom God says "Thy will be done." I do not pin the blame on God for the latter.
All Israel will be saved.
That's not the nation of Israel though. The word used for "so" is "houtō" which means "in this way". So in this way all of Israel shall be saved. But what came before this?
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
This speaking of the Jewish people, or Israel according to the flesh. A remnant of them are among the true Israel. How do I know this?
Because Paul then says-
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; [b]but the election hath obtained it
This passage does not mean that God will suddenly do a special work amongst Jewish people and bring them all to faith. It carries on the thought that Paul started with in Romans 9:6-
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. [b]For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
You also must take into consideration that Paul had already made the point that I posted earlier that the true Jews were those who were circumcised in their hearts, which is not the natural man.
Paul also makes this distinction in writing to the Philippian Christians-
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
When Israel is back in the Land, and Jesus Christ comes to set up the Kingdom promised to Israel, THEN there will be a NATIONAL Israel, and then ALL Israel will be saved.
Oh sure during the suppose 1000 years????
Sorry, but I don't believe in a literal millennial reign, nor do I believe Scripture teaches this. If indeed there is a literal 1000 year reign of Christ where He establishes peace and all those things, then there is another fall when Satan is loosed from the pit.
[i]There are several serious weaknesses with premillennialism. The first weakness is that premillenniarians have to explain how it is that people make it through the return of Christ and yet remain in natural bodies. Jesus taught that his return marks the end of the age (Matthew 13:39) and that after his return, people no longer marry or are given in marriage (Luke 20:34-36). At Christ's return, he judges the world, making it tough for someone to be judged and yet not eternally condemned or rewarded with eternal life (Matthew 25:31-46). This is especially problematic for premillennarians, since they claim that their view is based upon a "literal" interpretation of prophecy. Where, then, is the one-thousand year gap between the return of Christ and the judgment (which, according to premillennarians takes place at the end of the millennium) when Jesus teaches that judgment takes place at his return? Those who take the Bible "literally" find themselves having to insert a gap into the biblical text which isn't there.
The other problem with premillennialism is, if it be true, there is a great apostasy on the earth after one thousand years of Christ's rule (Revelation 20:7-10). If there cannot be people on earth in natural bodies during the thousand years (which supposedly comes after Christ returns), then who are the people who revolt against Christ at the end of the millennium? And that after Christ's own rule? It makes much more sense to see Revelation 20:1-10 as a description of the entire inter-advental age, since the scene takes place in heaven where the thrones are (vv. 1-6), before shifting to the earth in verses 7-10.
Kim Riddlebarger
Because Calvinism is a Dominion Theology, like all Dominion Theologies, who deny these promises to Israel, thinking they are bringing in a Kingdom of their own RE; JW's, Mormons,, or think as Reformed Theology does, that the Church replaced these promises to Israel. Reformed Calvinis Puritans believed America to be teh New Promised Land, and we God's New Chosen People, establishing or trying to a Theocracy on earth...totally disobedient to a Heavenly Calling out of the Church.
Already showed you the error of saying that a few pages back.
You obviously do not know as much about Calvinism and Reformed Theology as you claim. Allow me to state once more, the vast majority of Reformed, Lutheran, and Calvinist believers are Amillennial.
They do not believe that the world will be conquered by the Church, but rather that Christ is indeed reigning through His Church now. Satan will be loosed fro a time and things will get very bad, then Christ returns, and end of story.
Maybe you could be a bit more fair in your broad brushing, and do a little research before adamantly stating something that is not true.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that you do not understand or even grasp Romans 9-11.
Nor does it surprise me that you do not understand what it plainly says. Tell me where once in the New Testament God has a favorite race of people any longer.
See, your problem is you way of interpreting Scripture. The NT interprets the OT, and not the other way around. You cannot go back to the shadows to tell us what it "really" means, when the fullness of all the promises has come in the person of Christ.
If you really want to get technical, one could say that Christ is the true Israel.
I know that these views don't fit with the modern day politically correct view of Israel, but God has no favorite nation any longer, and an unsaved Israeli is just as damned as an unsaved Muslim, or an unsaved American.
Funny that usually those who argue free will use this quote, but I will use it as it fits here-
God is no respecter of persons.
.
Anyone who believes is a sheep, and anyone can believe. Do not confuse "would not" in John 10 with "could not". Jesus said they WOULD NOT believe. He didn't say they COULD NOT believe. The huge difference is that they had a will of their own, different from the will of God. We know from the other gospels that it was the desire of Jesus that they believe (Luke 13:34). But they refused to.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Joh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to [u]me
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. [u]Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jeremiah 31:37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD
Well, The heavens CAN'T be measured, and this is what God is saying, he will NEVER cast away Israel.
Nor does it surprise me that you do not understand what it plainly says. Tell me where once in the New Testament God has a favorite race of people any longer.
Romans 11:
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
How can you spiritualize this away to say it means something fulfilled IN US.
We are instructed not to be ignorant or arrogant about these mysteries.
I know that these views don't fit with the modern day politically correct view of Israel, but God has no favorite nation any longer, and an unsaved Israeli is just as damned as an unsaved Muslim, or an unsaved American.
During this Church age of whosoever will, absolutely, because God is forming His Church, the Spiritual Body of Christ out of every tongue, people and nation.
However when the CHURCH is complete, it will be translated out before the Wrath of God comes.
Religious Jews today are as lost as lost can be, but according to Romans 11, God will have MERCY on them, as He had MERCY on you.
You see, you can't understand one iota of Grace until you first understand Mercy.
Please re-read Romans 9-11 and see how many times the word MERCY is used...not election.
The Sovereignty of God is HIS MERCY, working through GRACE to reveal His LOVING-KINDNESS.
Don't be ignorant of these things!
Love in Christ
Katy
The CHURCH is never referred to as JACOB. When scripture speaks of JACOB it is speaking of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL, not the Church.
This is the Fulfilling of events AFTER the Church is translated out;
This is and will be what the earth will be like during the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign......verse 7....ALL THE EARTH IS AT REST.......
The 1000 Year Reign will be the 1000 years of REST as Jesus reigns and rules.[u][b]26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from ***Jacob***:
Isaiah 14
[u][b]1For the LORD will have ****MERCY**** on Jacob,
and will yet choose Israel,
2And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
[u][b] 7The whole earth is at rest,
8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
23I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
24The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
28In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
29Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
31Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
32What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.
Love in Christ
Katy
How can you spiritualize this away to say it means something fulfilled IN US.
I don't think I have spiritualized it at all. Rather I take it as it stands.
Starting in Romans 9 Paul makes the point that not all Israel is Israel, meaning that not all who are born Israeli are part of true Israel which is now no longer a geographical location, but rather a covenant people, just as it was in the OT.
So when Paul comes to Romans 11 and says that all Israel shall be saved, it means all of the covenant people shall be saved. This group will be made up of those from every tribe, tongue, and nation.
If indeed your view is correct, then Jews could not be saved at the moment right? Which seems to be echoed in many misled Evangelical circles. But I know many Jews who are in the faith presently. God is saving Jewish people now, just as He is saving Gentiles and making up Israel.
And you still have not dealt with the language of Romans 11 where it says, "in this way all Israel will be saved".
Religious Jews today are as lost as lost can be, but according to Romans 11, God will have MERCY on them, as He had MERCY on you.
Yes, but God does not have some special work coming for them, once the age of the Gentiles is over,the end of time comes at the return of Christ and as it was in the days of Noah, the judgment will come, and those in Christ shall be saved. There is no seven year period of a second chance, nor is there a 1000 year reign of perfection on the Earth to be followed by a second fall of man.
Don't be ignorant of these things!
Of course you presuppose that you are right, and that any not of your though are ignorant.
Spare me, as I said earlier, you cannot make the OT interpret the NT, or you will end up in error. You are probably one of those folks who say, "to know what Revelation means, we need to go back to Daniel and Ezekiel."
But that is completely backwards. The NT interprets the OT, and as Paul wrote, all of the promises of God in Christ as yes, and in Him amen. Christ has become the fulfillment of all that was promised in the OT. The new temple of Ezekiel is Christ, and it must be as that temple is described as perfect. We know that anything man touches or has anything to do with is not perfect.
Your backwards thinking is leading you into a wrong interpretation of things. Stick in the NT for awhile, so you can get a grasp on what God has done in Christ, the covenant Head of all of God's people.
Roaringlamb,
There are many of us backwards thinkers out here, according to what you call backwards.
So with that, I will not call God's word or what He has said..a lie.
You seem to think ALL Prophecy has been fulfilled, how silly is that.
But, in obedience to the Lord, I will not strive with you on this issue...only pray your eyes will be opened.
http://www.jesus-messiah.com/chalfant/The%20Danger%20Of%20Preterism%20William%20B.htm
You may want too read this.....if not, it's not my concern.
There is nothing backwards about his thinking.
If indeed your view is correct, then Jews could not be saved at the moment right? Which seems to be echoed in many misled Evangelical circles. But I know many Jews who are in the faith presently. God is saving Jewish people now, just as He is saving Gentiles and making up Israel.
Well, I a Jew, saved TODAY who belong to the Church, so Jews are saved today.
But God is not making up ISRAEL, ans we are NOT Israel...we are a NEW CREATION in Christ Jesus.
Jesus is not ISRAEL...there is where you are off balance here.
The New Creation is not longer Jew of Gentile...but one New Man in Christ. That New Man is not called Israel. Now you're starting to sound like a SDA or JW.
So I suppose you think your a remnant to?
A Remnant Body of Christ...this WHOLE New Thing God is making is a remnant?
A Remnant is a piece of that original piece, as a remnant of a piece of cloth. A New Bolt of cloth is not referred to as a remnant piece of anything...yet you think your a remnant of the 12 tribes of Jacob?
Well, Roaringlamb, have a nice day :-)
Katy
There are many of us backwards thinkers out here, according to what you call backwards
Well, then you only show a wrong hermeneutic in your approach to the Scriptures and insist on taking us back to the shadows when the fulfillment has come.
You seem to think ALL Prophecy has been fulfilled, how silly is that.
Obviously Christ has not returned yet.
Well, I a Jew, saved TODAY who belong to the Church, so Jews are saved today
But I thought that Israel has been blinded, and then all of a sudden "magically" their eyes will be opened during a supposed 7 year period?
Look at what Paul says-
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that [b]blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Blindness in part has come to Israel, or the Jews because as Paul says in Chapter 10, they have a zeal of God, but not knowledge of Christ. Notice though this blindness is only in part and not total, so that there will be Jewish people who are coming to faith in Christ.
Jews and Gentiles will be brought to faith in Christ until the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in, and as the Greek says, "in this way all Israel will be saved". Israel now being the covenant people of God, and with that covenant being kept not by man, but by Christ and extending its benefits to all those in Him.
Jesus is not ISRAEL...there is where you are off balance here
Maybe not, but consider these verses for second-
Hosea 11:1 When [b]Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Matthew 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: [b]that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Looks like the Holy Spirit thought that Jesus could be Israel.
katy I think you might find this interesting-
The People of God
1)From the beginning, God selected one people alone, from all the earth.
Deu_7:6
Deu_10:15
Deu_14:2
Isa_41:8-9
2)This people would belong to him forever.
1Ki_6:13
1Ch_17:9
Isa_60:19-21
3)He would cast off, or exile this people for a time, for covenant unfaithfulness.
Deu_28:63-68
2Ki_17:20-24
2Ch_36:13-21
Hos_1:4-6
Hos_1:9
4)However, he would then gather them together again, and restore them.
Deu_30:4-9
Isa_10:21-23
Hos_1:7
Hos_1:10-11
5)When he restored them, he would also expand them, forming them anew from every people on earth.
Isa_2:1-3
Isa_11:9-16
Isa_19:23-25
Isa_24:13-15
Isa_42:4-12
Isa_49:1-12
Isa_51:5
Isa_60:1-9
Isa_66:10-24
Hos_2:23
Zec_2:10-13
Mal_1:11
6)The New Testament Church is the continuation of this one people.
Act_15:12-17
Rom_9:23-26
Rom_11:11-32
[Whether or not one sees a future for ethnic Israel in this passage is beside the point: in any case, there is only one people of God, represented by the one olive tree. Believing Gentiles have been grafted into this one tree, and unbelieving Jews broken off; but when they are grafted back in, it will be the same tree into which the Gentiles were grafted, God's people, true Israel.]
Gal_3:7-8
Gal_3:13-14
Eph_2:11-22
Eph_3:5-6
7)Hence, New Testament believers are called Jews, Abraham's seed, etc.
Rom_2:28-29
Rom_4:11-12
Rom_9:6-8
Gal_3:6-7
Gal_3:26-29
Gal_4:21-31
Gal_6:16
[The Greek conjunction may mean either "and" or "even"/"namely"; hence the context must determine the meaning. If it is taken in the sense of "and," so that "the Israel of God," is a different body from the Church, then Paul is contradicting himself and undermining the whole point he has been making throughout his letter! However, if it means "even," then the clear assertion that those who follow the "rule" of boasting only in the cross are in fact "the Israel of God," becomes a very fitting conclusion, and reiterates all that he has been teaching.]
Phi_3:3
Heb_12:22-24
1Pe_2:9-12
[Some have said that these Jewish terms are applied to the Church by way of analogy, not identification. However, when Peter goes on to speak of these ethnic "Gentiles" in contrast with the Gentiles, he makes it clear that he actually is intending to refer to them as Jews.]
Rev_2:9
Enjoy sister :-D
Here's some more, and I will post more later, may this bless you and edify you.
The Fulfilment of Prophecy
1)The true heir of the Old Testament promises is not ethnic Israel, but only Christ, the one Seed of Abraham.
Gal_3:16
Thus, everyone who is in Christ, which includes all believers, is an heir of the promises made to Abraham.
Gal_3:28-29
2)The true fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies is frequently indicated in the New Testament.
The prophecy of restoring Israel was fulfilled by the calling of the Gentiles to be God's people.
Act_15:13-17 (quoting Amo_9:11-12)
Rom_9:22-26 (quoting Hos_1:10; Hos_2:23)
[The verses that Paul is quoting from Hosea are clearly speaking of "the house of Israel," and say that she will be cast off, and no longer God's people; but then restored, and God's people again. Paul is here saying that this restoration of Israel as God's people is being fulfilled by God's calling out a people "not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles".]
The prophecy of the New Covenant, made "with the house of Israel" (see Jer_31:31-34), is fulfilled in the New Testament Church.
Heb_8:6-13
Heb_10:14-18
Mat_26:26-28
Mar_14:22-24
Luk_22:19-20
1Co_11:23-25
2Co_3:5-6
Some other prophecies and types interpreted in the New Testament
Mat_2:14-15 (quoting Hos_11:1)
[The context of Hosea is clearly referring to Israel; hence, Matthew sees Jesus as the true Israel, and the antitype of Israel's history.]
Mat_17:10-13 (referring to Mal_4:5)
Joh_2:19-22
[Not only does Jesus here equate the Old Testament temple imagery with his own body, by means of which the presence of God truly was brought down to man; but furthermore, John explains that believing this Christ-centered interpretation was in fact to believe the Old Testament scriptures themselves.]
Act_2:14-21 (quoting Joe_2:28-32)
[Most Dispensationalists will say that this prophecy is referring to Jesus' second coming, as their hermeneutic demands; but Peter clearly declares that it is being fulfilled in this age.]
Act_2:25-32 (quoting Psa_16:8-11)
Act_2:33-36 (quoting Psa_110:1)
Rom_4:13-17 (quoting Gen_17:5)
[According to Paul, the promise that Abraham would be the father of many nations was fulfilled when he became the father of all those who believed, from all the Gentile peoples.]
Gal_4:22-31 (quoting Isa_54:1 and Gen_21:10)
Heb_9:1-12 (interpreting the symbolism of the tabernacle and its worship services)
[When one allows God himself to interpret the meaning of his prophecies through later revelation, it becomes impossible to employ a naturalistic, Dispensational hermeneutic. Dispensationalists claim to have a literal hermeneutic, taking prophecies in a simple, material sense unless the immediate context demands otherwise. The problem with this approach is that it arrives at interpretations which are later contradicted by the New Testament. In opposition to this principle, Covenant Theologians recognize the validity of "the analogy of faith," that is, that the best interpreter of scriptures is other scriptures. The hermeneutic which allows the Author to foreshadow spiritual realities through physical means, and later interpret them in clear, didactic writing, is actually a more natural and literal hermeneutic than one which demands a physical/material sense unless an immediate abusrdity arises thereby, even when other scriptures contradict this physical/material sense. The basic question is this: will our hermeneutic allow God to explain himself, or will it allow our own human understanding of what is more literal to negate the interpretation of God himself?]
3)Those to whom the Old Testament promises were first made understood them to mean more than the merely physical.
Heb_11:9-10
Heb_11:13-16
Heb_11:17-19
Heb_11:24-26
Heb_11:39-40
By the way, these were compiled by a dear brother named Nathan Pitchford, and not by myself. They do howeve represent a fair view of my personal beliefs(this way you don't have to make assumptions about what I do or do not believe).
Roaringlamb,
While I agree with some of these statements here, there are other verses to consider.
I don't know if you will understand this, and maybe I should wait until I can say it perfectly, but I am going to try.
In The OT any Gentile wanting to worship the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, they became a proselyte RE; Ruth.
Now, Romans 11 says, they were broken off so Gentiles could be grafted in. Grafted into what? Not the Covenants made to Israel, re the Palestinian Covenant....an unconditional Covenant, and the Davidic Covenant, also an unconditional Covenant....but the covenant made to Abraham, long before Jacob was names Israel, that those who are of FAITH are the sons of Abraham, and in that promise all families of the earth will be blessed.
Romans 4 also clarifies this.
If Israel had not rejected Jesus...lets think what would be the scenario then. Would Gentiles have to join themselves to Israel still?
We don't know.....therefore this may be why God blinded most of Israel's eyes....because ****Jesus Christ is the head of the Church****, not Israel, and this is what God wanted to establish and make very clear. The individual priesthood of the Believer...the whosoever will may come, which includes the whole world....Gentiles, not just Israel.
Now we know in Luke a promise was made, having nothing to do with a Promise to Gentiles.
Luke 1:32-34
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the ***house of Jacob*** for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. ((((Gentiles are not the House of Jacob, and never were and never will be.)))
Again this is from OT Prophecy
Isaiah 9:5-7
5For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
But we see, this did not happen THEN, but instead Jesus went to the Cross instead.
Yet, this will be fulfilled. For one thing we know Jesus after the Flesh is ***David's Son**
But we know Jesus' Father is GOD himself...correct.
Could Jesus have fulfilled this and not gone to the Cross, but become KING Instead, establishing His Kingdom? How then would Gentiles fit into this plan? Would they be in subjection to David's Throne, and not come Boldly to the Throne of GRACE sitting NOW at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven itself?
God tears down and builds up, according to HIS plans and Purpose. He had to tear down any Jewish arrogance, by blinding their eyes, as Jesus Christ builds HIS CHURCH, a Heavenly Organism, not an earthly one.
With One New man, no longer Jew or Gentile, He is now doing something different. But that does not annul the future promises all ready established of a Kingdom Reign when He will return and take the Throne of David.
You will see in the OT the majority of prophecy is concerning the Kingdom Messiah KING, and very few concerning Messiah Redeemer.
You see, without the redeemer first, who shed HIS blood, there would be no total and complete forgiveness of sin, for that is only through Jesus Christ, who's father is GOD, of the seed of David or House of David...who is Mary.
AND we know Jesus is not NOW sitting on the Throne of David His Father...how silly is that. No Heavenly Throne is named after a mere mortal.
So the Throne of David is the Earthly Throne to an Earthly People....the House of Jacob, where Gentiles WILL be in subjection at that time.
Love in Christ
Katy
PS, This will happen after the Great Tribulation and wrath, and those who endure to the end will be saved and enter in... They will SEE the Glory of the Lord, however we, His Church, will be Glorified TOGETHER with Christ...as His Church is called co-heirs together with Christ, and will reign and rule with Him at that time.
We are not going to rule with a rod of Iron each other in Heaven...how silly is that! The Rod of Iron is Judgement, and when Jesus Reigns and Rules at this time JUSTICE will be on the earth...swift and quick!
See the 7 letters to the Churches.
AND we know Jesus is not NOW sitting on the Throne of David His Father...how silly is that. No Heavenly Throne is named after a mere mortal.
So are you saying that Christ does not rule in temporal at the present moment? Of course the throne of David is not Heavenly, but it is also not a throne in Jerusalem either.
You still have not answered the objections to pre-millennialism views in post a few pages back.
So the Throne of David is the Earthly Throne to an Earthly People....the House of Jacob, where Gentiles WILL be in subjection at that time.
Well seeing that there will not be a literal throne set up in Jerusalem, this must mean that Christ's reign through His Church is that throne, and this is why the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church, because He is our King presently and to come as well.
This will happen after the Great Tribulation and wrath,
Please show me from Scripture where this is taught. And no using Daniel 9(because we know that that is speaking of Christ and not anti Christ) ;-)
when Jesus Reigns and Rules at this time JUSTICE will be on the earth...swift and quick!
When Christ returns to Earth, He comes to judge. We are ruling at the present moment, and Satan is bound as he cannot do anything apart from the allowance of God, and he must submit to God's will. Satan will be let loose for a time, deceive many and set them up for judgment when Christ returns.
See the 7 letters to the Churches.
If you're speaking of the book of Revelation, it would not help, as I do not view it as futurist as you do. So we aren't going to see eye to eye on that.
the thread title is who did christ die for?
thats easy! He died for me :-)
thats easy! He died for me
Love it, in the end that is what matters.
Katy said:
This will happen after the Great Tribulation and wrath,
Roaringlamb said:
Please show me from Scripture where this is taught. And no using Daniel 9(because we know that that is speaking of Christ and not anti Christ)
OK, Here is Joel 2. Now re-read Matthew 24, and Revelation, and tell me if this has all ready happened? When did it happen? Are you saying these were the events just prior to Pentecost?
The pouring out of the spirit on ALL flesh? How can that be, when the Holy Spirit NOW is only given to those who obey, and those IN CHRIST?
So the Day of the Lord, that Great and TERRIBLE Day of His wrath has all ready come? According to this, that comes before the pouring out of the spirit on ALL flesh!!!
But not according to Paul in 2nd Thessalonians....because there will be a falling away first before "The Day of the Lord" comes.
The last verse cannot apply to the Church, because IN CHRIST we are redeemed, and delivered from wrath through Him NOW.
Joel 2
1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
[u][b]20But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
When did this happen? Can you tell me? This happened sometime right before Pentecost?????
21Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
[u][b]28And it shall come to pass ***********AFTERWARD**********, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
((((((This is the New Covenant promised to Israel and the House of Judah)))))
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, *****before the great and terrible day of the LORD come******.
32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Roaringlamb, one does not have to go to Daniel alone to find these truths.
By the way...I do hope you are feeling better.
Love in Christ
Katy
Who did Christ die for.....For God so loved the world, that ****He gave*** His only begotten Son, that whoso ever believes in Him will not parish but have everlasting life.
SO THAT
Romans 15:9
The Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Praise God, and how wonderful are His ways and His plans!!!!!!
The pouring out of the spirit on ALL flesh? How can that be, when the Holy Spirit NOW is only given to those who obey, and those IN CHRIST?
So are you saying that God is going to pour out the Holy Spirit upon all people?
Don't you think this logically means all kinds of people or nations?
20But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
Wasn't this the Assyrians, or an enemy likened to locusts in number and veracity which is mentioned previously? God was going to remove this enemy, and punish this enemy because of the things they did to Israel.
28And it shall come to pass ***********AFTERWARD**********, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Well according to Peter-
Act 2:16 But [b]this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So there is the fulfillment.
Roaringlamb, one does not have to go to Daniel alone to find these truths
No mysterious Seven year period though. No mention of a "peace treaty" in the middle of the Seven years either.
By the way...I do hope you are feeling better
I am thanks be to God, and thank you very much for your kindness.
May I also say, that I love the fact that we can hash this out, and sharpen each other in a spirit of family. I thank you for that.
Roaringlamb, So glad you are recovering and doing well.
No mysterious Seven year period though. No mention of a "peace treaty" in the middle of the Seven years either.
I think some things must be established first before that will fall into place.
It is because of this Peace treaty that is made, God calls it a Covenant of Hell....so this time of God's wrath and Judgement will be for these reasons, and the time of JACOB's Trouble is God's anger towards Israel for ...well. Isaiah 30&31...WOE to those who go down to Egypt for Help but not at my Hand. It won't be until after teh anti-christ turns on Israel that THEN Israel will cry out to GOD...which is what HE wants all along.
Here :
Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
You see, there won't be PEACE until Jesus Christ Himself brings Peace...so anyone today bringing any peace, who claim to bring peace...RE: Rick Warren beware, or amking any packs with Israel, will not stand...why? Because it's not according to God's Plan....but fits int arrogant Gentile world power wanting to play God...Woe to them!
Well to your question, ……was that concerning the Assyrians?
So I have put together some verses here to show it is not.
First lets break down ((a great study) different applications to words we may breeze by without really seeing the context , or assuming they all mean the same thing.
Let’s start with DAY…..the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ…certainly not a DAY of wrath or vengeance:
The Lord Jesus told the Pharisees in John 8:56; “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY DAY: and he saw it, and was glad.”
Jesus Christ said that Abraham saw (perceived) HIS DAY - MY DAY. How did Abraham “see” His Day? God revealed Christ’s Day to him; hence, Abraham saw the Day, by faith, and was “glad.”
Abraham saw in a vision when he was to sacrifice Isaac, the resurrection.....that is the DAY Abraham was glad to see. The Day of our Lord Jesus Christ. The 8th day of circumcision was a sign of this NEW DAY.
When we worship Jesus Christ on the first DAY of the week, we celebrate the Resurrection Day.
Those today who are Born Again, and raised up together with Him are of the DAY....Resurrection Day....the beginning of the NEW Creation.
Not OT be confused with **The day of the Lord** that terrible day. Abraham certainly wasn't glad to see THAT DAY!
So it is important to distinguish between ..the last DAY***S** and the Last DAY. Also to distinguish between the Day of the Lord…his Wrath, and the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is noted 2 times in scripture that only the Father KNOWS when …what…..The second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth, restoring the Kingdom to Israel. Matthew 24:35-37 and Acts 1:6&7 are speaking of this same time. The days of Noah were wicked days, and the earth was destroyed with a flood. The Day of the Lord, this time will come with FIRE, destroying Gentile world power, Babylon, and these kingdoms who have given their power to anti-Christ.
Jesus Christ comes, destroying this gentile world power with an imposter sitting on the throne(((who‘s been sitting in my chair)))(((anti-Christ))…….to ESTABLISH HIS THRONE…the Throne of David, restoring the Kingdom promised to Israel….National Blessings, and the complete fulfillment of pouring out His Spirit on all flesh. These promises are to Israel. This will also include the fulfillment of the Palestinian Covenant of returning to the land…..National Blessings. Please read all of Ezekiel 36.
The Church does not inherit these blessings given to National Israel.
So we see a partial fulfillment spoken in Acts concerning the Holy Spirit. The Apostles were being made fun of and called drunk, and were rebuked by Peter, reminding them of the Prophecy in Joel, and concluded his rebuke with the coming of Judgment.
Again, this rebuke was to Israel, not Gentiles, for no Gentile was saved on that day. Cornelius was the first Gentile Saved, and received the Holy Spirit the moment he received the truth of the GOSPEL. Nowhere was Cornelius invited to Jerusalem or told about any restored Kingdom to Israel he must partake in, or are any gentiles instructed to do so. During the Church Age. Why, because the Church is something completely New and Different, a People called out, a Heavenly calling, Jesus the Chief Cornerstone, and we are built up together with Him, a Heavenly habitation. Paul wants US to know the HOPE of OUR Calling, Joint heir ship with Jesus Christ, to return with Him, JUDE 14…He comes to execute Judgment and he is with ten thousands of his SAINTS. So the Day of the Lord, the day of His wrath, He is coming WITH his saints…not for His Saints. We the Church are His Saints.
Please refer to Genesis 49, Jacob’s Prophecy concerning Israel……When will this be fulfilled…..THE LAST DAY*S*.
Matthew 24:35-37
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Acts 1: 6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
This is the second coming of Jesus to the earth……
Both one in the same, to execute Judgment on the earth and to set up the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign.
The day of the Lord is the Day of God’s vengeance and wrath. The **GREAT Tribulation** such as has never been before on earth.
Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! for the (((the day of the LORD)))
is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joel 2:1
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the (((the day of the LORD )))
cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joel 2:11
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the (((the day of the LORD)))
is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible (((the day of the LORD )))
come.
Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the (((the day of the LORD )))
is near in the valley of decision.
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful (((the day of the LORD: )))
Who is THEY and THEM?
1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the (((day of the LORD))) so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when (((they))) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon ((them)), as travail upon a woman with child; and ((they)) shall not escape.
And who here are the YE, WE, YOU, and US?
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that ((that day))((The Day of the Lord)) should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath (((((((( the day of the LORD )))))))
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
So, the ***Day of the Lord has not come, that day spoken of In Joel.
Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the (((day of the LORD! )))to what end is it for you? (((the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.)))
Amos 5:17-19
Shall not the (((day of the LORD))) be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
( This sure isn’t talking about the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ, or the **Day** Abraham rejoiced to see)
Zephaniah 1:14
The great (((day of the LORD))) is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zephaniah 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the (((day of the LORD's))) wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Many believe this to be one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11.????? So we know this day is yet to come, but we know the last 3 ½ is the bowls of WRATH.
1 Thess 5: 5Ye are all the children of (((light, and the children of the day))): we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Paul is assuring the Church we are IN CHRIST, the Children of the Light and children of the DAY…..the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ….a New Day, where Jesus is head, the First born of the NEW Creation, and we IN HIM are sealed until the day of Redemption.
Well, this is all for today. So if you don't hear back, I'm not ignoring you.
Have a great day in the Lord Roaringlamb!
Love in Christ
Katy
PS ADDED: I must add this. In Revelation where you see...***they sang the song of Moses***, and overcame the beast, is referring to Israel only who made this covenant of Hell, knowing after he turns on them ......cries out to God. And a deliver will come out of Sion...and all Israel will be saved...Romans 11! They are still beloved for the Fathers sake, and always will be!!!
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