Calvinism—Arminianism, Which?

I just saw a post by a dear brother in Christ. That post delt with this topic of Calvinism and Arminianism. Im amaized how we spend so much time discussing this things and yet so many other things we do not keep. Where is Holliness in all this? Where is purity in all of it?

1. Unconditional Election. Calvinists believe that God decided before the world began who will be saved and who will be lost. According to unconditional election, your eternal destination has been decided. Nothing you may do will change that destiny!

2. Limited Atonement. Calvin taught that Christ’s blood was shed for the elect only–those God planned to save or “elect” to salvation.

3. Total Depravity. That man can, in himself, do nothing to respond to God or to come to Him. According to this idea, faith is all on God’s part–not on man’s part. The Calvinist will tell you, “God does it all.”

4. Irresistible Grace. If God has decided to save you, He will do it regardless of what you do. You can’t resist the plan and power of God. His saving grace overpowers the free will of the elect.

5. Perseverance of the Saints. Anyone who is saved or “elected” by God can never fall away from or lose that salvation–once you’re saved you’re always saved!

All I see in this is how men finds excuses for living the way they do. Wow, if this is true then go ahead sin all you want, at the end you are still saved.

If that is your god, then I rather be eternally lost. Yeah I seriously do. How can I serve a god that is not Just and righteous. That is not the God I serve. The God I serve and live for has made me clean and has given me the choise of choosing ither him or Satan. I Choose GOD, I choose life, I choose to be holly and live with him the rest of my life.

May we all see That there is a judement seat of Christ like Leonard Ravenhill puts it. We will one day come to judgement to be judged by the judge of all the earth. Let us be ready, watched in the precious blood of the Lamb.

but why do you get to choose God and not the other million other people in the world?
is it because your smarter?
or you can read?
or you had Christian parents?
or you had special insight?
or your heart is more prone to Love?
or someone offered you the chance to know Christ?
i really want to know why you and not my friend?

All I see in this is how men finds excuses for living the way they do. Wow, if this is true then go ahead sin all you want, at the end you are still saved.

The truly saved will not desire to continue sinning.

Siboleth or Shiboleth? Many fruitless and loveless words have been lost in this debate. Brother kills brother in 'friendly' fire.

Here is an anekdote from A.W.Tozer's biography:

I (Cliff Westergren) was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, "Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?"

And I'll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, "My son, when you get to college you're going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I'll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you'll be way down the line and they'll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God."

I am neither and both - call me a Christian. If I would tell you my position and you would disagree with me I am still looking forward to share eternity with you.

Philip

Hey, Hello andres.

I would gladly answer all of your questions.

why do you get to choose God.....

Why did I choose God? I chose him because one day I realized that I had been doing what is wrong before the eyes of God. I chose him because his love thowards me made me feel as a sinner, made me feel guilty before my creator.

....and not the other million other people in the world?

Why have they not chosen God? Because even tough they all know, by the law writen upon their hearts that they are doing wrong, they lovr their sin and want to keep doing those things wich they know they should not be doing. Which are not pleasing to his sight.

is it because your smarter?

Absolutly not

or you can read?

Nope, One does not need to know how to read to know that one is disoveying God.

or you had Christian parents?

Nope, You can be born in the Jungles with Indian parents that don't know what 7 multiplied times 7 is and still you know that God exsists and that he has rules to be followed

you had special insight?

Nope, All men are born with a God given consience.

your heart is more prone to Love?

No, definetly not

someone offered you the chance to know Christ?

Nope, Only Jesus gave me a chanse to know him.

really want to know why you and not my friend?

Oh dear frined, your friend also has the privilage to know God, it is he how did not choose to know God, God loves us all, and wants us to come to repentance and he wants his entire creation to know him.

If you believe in the Doctrines of John Calvin, then I ask who is greater John Calvin or Jesus Christ? Who do you believe more John Calvin's word or God's Word? May God Bless you my dear friend, I will be praying for you.

Amen Brother Philip. Learn to know God. Amen

That's why I try not to argue about this, because at the end all that matters is if we know Christ.

Im a Christian, I don't follow any other person's teachings but Jesus Christ's. May we share eternity brother, in Heaven brother, not in Hell.

Living for God, i am sorry , for being argumenative i hope you may forgive me.
love andy

Oh please don't worry about it. ;-) I did not think you where argumenative at all. You just where questionative (if that's a word).

Did the answers help. Do you have any other question?

na your answers help, thanks and thanks for praying i need it
love
andy

1. Unconditional Election. Calvinists believe that God decided before the world began who will be saved and who will be lost. According to unconditional election, your eternal destination has been decided. Nothing you may do will change that destiny!

Nope, that's not what it means. Unconditional Election is the fact that as Scripture teaches that God elected individuals without any regard to any conditions deserving of salvation in them.

2. Limited Atonement. Calvin taught that Christ’s blood was shed for the elect only–those God planned to save or “elect” to salvation.

Well, if you are going to say that Calvin taught something, maybe you should post where he said this. Jesus Himself said that He gave His life for the sheep alone.

3. Total Depravity. That man can, in himself, do nothing to respond to God or to come to Him. According to this idea, faith is all on God’s part–not on man’s part. The Calvinist will tell you, “God does it all.”

Again, you are off here as well. Men cannot respond to God apart from His regenerating work in their heart, but it is not God that repents for them, or believes for them. Faith and repentance are fruits of the new heart.

God gives a new heart out of which comes faith.

4. Irresistible Grace. If God has decided to save you, He will do it regardless of what you do. You can’t resist the plan and power of God. His saving grace overpowers the free will of the elect.

Well, yes and no. God's grace is resistible, we resist it all the time. So, the point of irresistible grace is that the grace of God actually does what is sets out to do, which is redeem people.

5. Perseverance of the Saints. Anyone who is saved or “elected” by God can never fall away from or lose that salvation–once you’re saved you’re always saved!

Again, no Calvinist claims OSAS, but rather the persevering of His saints. They persevere and bear fruit because the Spirit is within them, and their new heart convicts them of their sin.

I also noticed that you did not state the Five points of Arminianism, which of course is what the five points were an answer to.

Hello my friend roaringlamb. I can see that you believe in the doctrines of John Calvin. I will not try prove anything here. I know that nothing I say has the power to change anybody, it is only the Holly spirit who has the power to change men and women everywhere. I have been changed by the Holly spirit's work in me. I have been clensed from all sin. The blood of the Lamb keeps me clean and holly for himself. You see we can spend an eternity arguing this subject and at the end we would bothe think the same way we started , unless the holly spirit of God changes us. One thing I do know, and that is that to know be God's son one must be his child. And to be his child one must live holly lives. Are you Holly and have you been clensed by the Blood of Christ? If yes, then you are my brother, and we have the power of Christ to overcome any temptation. His blood enables us to live Holly without sin. Amen. Blessings

I can see that you believe in the doctrines of John Calvin

No, I believe the Scriptures, and what the totality of Scripture teaches.

I know that nothing I say has the power to change anybody

As do I, yet there is a need to represent properly that which is being discussed, and let God do what He will. It is deceptive to say things that may or may not be true about a view, and gives a person no credibility when in the discussion.

Are you Holly and have you been clensed by the Blood of Christ?

No I am not green and pointy :-P Sorry I couldn't resist!

I am as holy as Christ is because I have been placed in Him by faith.

His blood enables us to live Holly without sin.

So you never sin? Wow, that's amazing cause I know for a fact that I do not love God with all my heart all the time, neither do I love my neighbor as myself all the time. As far as I know, that is sin because sin is the transgression of the law.

But praise God, Christ has redeemed me, and I shall be saved as the Spirit mold me into His image. But I will never be sinless until glory.

Allright my dear friend. I see what your saying. Let us proseed in the narrow way. Let us fight the good fight. Let us please God with all our hearts, minds, strenghts, souls. To God be all the Glory for ever and ever more. I am unworthy to be child of God, and I desire that you would Glorify God with all you have. All I want to know is God, and God alone. I would prefere that than to be the Greates theologian among men. Thank God for his Blood.

Amen, and that is the cry of the Spirit!

How can any men be Holy? Who among us is without sin?

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Lev 10:13 And ye shall eat it in the holy place, because it [is] thy due, and thy sons' due, of the sacrifices of the LORD made by fire: for so I am commanded.

Lev 11:44 For I [am] the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I [am] holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Lev 11:45 For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy.

Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God [am] holy.

Lev 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Lev 20:26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD [am] holy, and have severed you from [other] people, that ye should be mine.

Lev 21:8 Thou shalt sanctify him therefore; for he offereth the bread of thy God: he shall be holy unto thee: for I the LORD, which sanctify you, [am] holy.

Psa 86:2 Preserve my soul; for I [am] holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.

Isa 43:3 For I [am] the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt [for] thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Do we make God a liar?

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So how can we be perfect with no sin in us?

1 John 3:7-9 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How is this possible? That is "be ye perfect even as I am Perfect".

This is a great "mystery", that is, "the mystery of Godliness."

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

How can we be presented perfect before God?

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

Our bodies are His Temple and He is come in His Temple to make us Holy.

The Spirit of Christ in us makes us Holy Before the Father. The Holy Spirit in us makes us also a living Temple, and we are becoming in our soulish part, the mind, as Christ is. For we have, "The Mind of Christ".

Are we perfect in Christ? Or do we then make God a liar also.

Romans 8:5-17 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

This we have in Christ Jesus, let us chase the Spirit and win the Race provided us, Winners in Christ. Amen

In Christ: Phillip

Amen, a lot of scripture. Thank God for his Holly word. Thank God for all those men and women who made it possible for the Holly Bible to be know to us.

Hey sis,

I cannot type very well right now, but I'll try.

I believe that John 10 is very clear in answering who Christ laid down His life for-

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

To further show that He was not strictly speaking of the Jewish people, He goes on in the nxt verse-

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I don't know what you have in mind, so it's hard to answer your question.

But what is interesting to me is what Jesus tells the Jews that gather around Him and demand for Him to tell them "plainly" if He is indeed the Christ.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, [b]I told you, and ye believed not[/b]: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
John 10:26 [b]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep[/b], as I said unto you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

What I find interesting is the clear proof of man's natural inability to see and savour Christ, or as the text says, "believe" in Him.

Yet they are told that because they are not His sheep, they do not believe, but His sheep will hear, believe, and be preserved unto life eternal.

Forgive me if there are some errors in wording or punctuation, the anesthesia has not fully worn off yet :-D

Hello Brother, Sorry to intrude here in this your answer to Dorcas. Borther, did somthing happen to you that you where under anesthesia? Hope everything is allright. Yeah I too have problems with spelling, and they are not due to aneshesia, is just that English is not my Native language.

Brother, If I may give a view of what I believe John 10 is saying is as follows:

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Ok, that's self explanatory.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Now here we read that if any man entereth thorough the door(Christ) he shall be saved, note the words (any man).

the good shepherd(christ) giveth his life for the sheep.

Wich sheep? Did he say his sheep, as he had said before? No, he said The sheep. So who are the sheep that he gave his life for? Well, the answer I believe is all men.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Well, then if they are not Christ's sheep then who's sheep are they? Well I believe the answer is: Of the Devil their Father. In John 8: 44 he says: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Brother, we are all sheep, wether we believe in Christ or not. What makes the difference is whose sheep we are off. Christ died for all, and any man that goeth through him( the door) shall be saived, and will go from being a sheep of the Devil, to a sheep of Christ. And when that happens then we hear his voice and follow him in everything.

God be with you brother. Love in Christ, brother Sammy.

Brother, we are all sheep,

Who then are the goats?

Brother I couldn't agree more with the fact that any man can come, but it is only the sheep that will come. Yet because we are told to preach the Gospel, and because we do not know who the sheep, we give it to all men, and God gives life as He wills.

God be with you brother. Love in Christ, brother Sammy.

And to you as well.

Thus, when you quote John 10:26 which contains the 'because', as if that has been God's decision, rather than His ratification of the unbeliever's decision .... I find that ..... difficult to 'see'.

See I look at it through the lens of what Jesus said in John 6:44- No man can come to me unless the Father which sent me draws him.

Also understanding that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, it can be safely assumed that anyone who is drawn to "the door" is made willing and able to do so.

I am beginning to think that our whole discussion really centers on how we think of original sin, and its effects on man.

Oh yeah, I didn't want you to think that I wrote off or glamorized the early Roman Catholic Church, for I know that there were many prior to Luther who attempted reform as well, like Hus, Tyndale, and Wycliffe.

I also like how you use the Tyndale version a lot, I have a copy as well, and love it! Just wish I could get a leather cover for it.

God's grace to you dear sister.

Brother, I apologise for having said that we are all sheep. I do not know quite well the difference between a sheep or a goat or a lamb. To me they are all very similar. What I ment to say with that we are all like sheep was that we all follow somone. We ither follow the Christ, or we follow The Devil. Again I apologise, you are right, in the final day the goats will be separated form the Lambs as Mathew 25:33 clearly tells us.

Brother do you remember that parable Jesus gave of the 100 sheep, how one of them was lost, and the sheeperd went everywhere to find it, and once he found it he carried it to join the rest of his flock.

13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.

14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

Here it says that your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost, refering to all men.

Brother, I cannot accept that God would only choose sertein persons to come to repentance and the rest he gives no chance to come to know the wonderful saviour. I cannot accept it because as I see Scripture that thought is clashes agains other parts of The Holly Bible. Brother, to say that would make God a very Unjust God, A Racist God, a God of no mercy. And does not scripture it self say: Shall not the Jude of all the Earth do right. Genesis 18:25.

Well brother, I know that God has translated me from the Kingdoom of Darkness to the Kingdoom of Light and righteousness. I was once a Goat, now I am a Sheep. Praise God for all eternity.

Love In Christ