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Banned from Church

M
MSeaman

Banned From Church
Reviving an ancient practice, churches are exposing sinners and shunning those who won't repent.
By ALEXANDRA ALTER
January 18, 2008; Page W1

On a quiet Sunday morning in June, as worshippers settled into the pews at Allen Baptist Church in southwestern Michigan, Pastor Jason Burrick grabbed his cellphone and dialed 911. When a dispatcher answered, the preacher said a former congregant was in the sanctuary. "And we need to, um, have her out A.S.A.P."


Half an hour later, 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey, a church member for nearly 50 years who had taught Sunday school and regularly donated 10% of her pension, was led out by a state trooper and a county sheriff's officer. One held her purse and Bible. The other put her in handcuffs.

The charge was trespassing, but Mrs. Caskey's real offense, in her pastor's view, was spiritual. Several months earlier, when she had questioned his authority, he'd charged her with spreading "a spirit of cancer and discord" and expelled her from the congregation. "I've been shunned," she says.

Her story reflects a growing movement among some conservative Protestant pastors to bring back church discipline, an ancient practice in which suspected sinners are privately confronted and then publicly castigated and excommunicated if they refuse to repent. While many Christians find such practices outdated, pastors in large and small churches across the country are expelling members for offenses ranging from adultery and theft to gossiping, skipping service and criticizing church leaders.

Causing Disharmony

Watermark Community Church, a nondenominational church in Dallas that draws 4,000 people to services, requires members to sign a form stating they will submit to the "care and correction" of church elders. Last week, the pastor of a 6,000-member megachurch in Nashville, Tenn., threatened to expel 74 members for gossiping and causing disharmony unless they repented. The congregants had sued the pastor for access to the church's financial records.

First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Ala., a 1,000-member congregation, expels five to seven members a year for "blatant, undeniable patterns of willful sin," which have included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders. About 400 people have left the church over the years for what they view as an overly harsh persecution of sinners, Pastor Jeff Noblit says.

The process can be messy, says Al Jackson, pastor of Lakeview Baptist Church in Auburn, Ala., which began disciplining members in the 1990s. Once, when the congregation voted out an adulterer who refused to repent, an older woman was confused and thought the church had voted to send the man to hell.

Karolyn Caskey was expelled from Allen Baptist Church after clashing with the pastor.
Amy Hitt, 43, a mortgage officer in Amissville, Va., was voted out of her Baptist congregation in 2004 for gossiping about her pastor's plans to buy a bigger house. Her ouster was especially hard on her twin sons, now 12 years old, who had made friends in the church, she says. "Some people have looked past it, but then there are others who haven't," says Ms. Hitt, who believes the episode cost her a seat on the school board last year; she lost by 42 votes.

Scholars estimate that 10% to 15% of Protestant evangelical churches practice church discipline -- about 14,000 to 21,000 U.S. congregations in total. Increasingly, clashes within churches are spilling into communities, splitting congregations and occasionally landing church leaders in court after congregants, who believed they were confessing in private, were publicly shamed.

In the past decade, more than two dozen lawsuits related to church discipline have been filed as congregants sue pastors for defamation, negligent counseling and emotional injury, according to the Religion Case Reporter, a legal-research database. Peggy Penley, a Fort Worth, Texas, woman whose pastor revealed her extramarital affair to the congregation after she confessed it in confidence, waged a six-year battle against the pastor, charging him with negligence. Last summer, the Texas Supreme Court dismissed her suit, ruling that the pastor was exercising his religious beliefs by publicizing the affair.


Allen Baptist Church
Courts have often refused to hear such cases on the grounds that churches are protected by the constitutional right to free religious exercise, but some have sided with alleged sinners. In 2003, a woman and her husband won a defamation suit against the Iowa Methodist conference and its superintendent after he publicly accused her of "spreading the spirit of Satan" because she gossiped about her pastor. A district court rejected the case, but the Iowa Supreme Court upheld the woman's appeal on the grounds that the letter labeling her a sinner was circulated beyond the church.

Advocates of shunning say it rarely leads to the public disclosure of a member's sin. "We're not the FBI; we're not sniffing around people's homes trying to find out some secret sin," says Don Singleton, pastor of Ridgeview Baptist Church in Talladega, Ala., who says the 50-member church has disciplined six members in his 2½ years as pastor. "Ninety-nine percent of these cases never go that far."

When they do, it can be humiliating. A devout Christian and grandmother of three, Mrs. Caskey moves with a halting gait, due to two artificial knees and a double hip replacement. Friends and family describe her as a generous woman who helped pay the electricity bill for Allen Baptist, in Allen, Mich., when funds were low, gave the church $1,200 after she sold her van, and even cut the church's lawn on occasion. She has requested an engraved image of the church on her tombstone.

Gossip and Slander

Her expulsion came as a shock to some church members when, in August 2006, the pastor sent a letter to the congregation stating Mrs. Caskey and an older married couple, Patsy and Emmit Church, had been removed for taking "action against the church and your preacher." The pastor, Mr. Burrick, told congregants the three were guilty of gossip, slander and idolatry and should be shunned, according to several former church members.

"People couldn't believe it," says Janet Biggs, 53, a former church member who quit the congregation in protest.

The conflict had been brewing for months. Shortly after the church hired Mr. Burrick in 2005 to help revive the congregation, which had dwindled to 12 members, Mrs. Caskey asked him to appoint a board of deacons to help govern the church, a tradition outlined in the church's charter. Mr. Burrick said the congregation was too small to warrant deacons. Mrs. Caskey pressed the issue at the church's quarterly business meetings and began complaining that Mr. Burrick was not following the church's bylaws. "She's one of the nicest, kindest people I know," says friend and neighbor Robert Johnston, 69, a retired cabinet maker. "But she won't be pushed around."

In April 2006, Mrs. Caskey received a stern letter from Mr. Burrick. "This church will not tolerate this spirit of cancer and discord that you would like to spread," it said. Mrs. Caskey, along with Mr. and Mrs. Church, continued to insist that the pastor follow the church's constitution. In August, she received a letter from Mr. Burrick that said her failure to repent had led to her removal. It also said he would not write her a transfer letter enabling her to join another church, a requirement in many Baptist congregations, until she had "made things right here at Allen Baptist."

She went to Florida for the winter, and when she returned to Michigan last June, she drove the two miles to Allen Baptist as usual. A church member asked her to leave, saying she was not welcome, but Mrs. Caskey told him she had come to worship and asked if they could speak after the service. Twenty minutes into the service, a sheriff's officer was at her side, and an hour later, she was in jail.

"It was very humiliating," says Mrs. Caskey, who worked for the state of Michigan for 25 years before retiring from the Department of Corrections in 1992. "The other prisoners were surprised to see a little old lady in her church clothes. One of them said, 'You robbed a church?' and I said, 'No, I just attended church.' "

Word quickly spread throughout Allen, a close-knit town of about 200 residents. Once a thriving community of farmers and factory workers, Allen consists of little more than a strip of dusty antiques stores. Mr. and Mrs. Church, both in their 70s, eventually joined another Baptist congregation nearby.

About 25 people stopped attending Allen Baptist Church after Mrs. Caskey was shunned, according to several former church members.

Current members say they support the pastor's actions, and they note that the congregation has grown under his leadership. The simple, white-washed building now draws around 70 people on Sunday mornings, many of them young families. "He's a very good leader; he has total respect for the people," says Stephen Johnson, 66, an auto parts inspector, who added that Mr. Burrick was right to remove Mrs. Caskey because "the Bible says causing discord in the church is an abomination."

Mrs. Caskey went back to the church about a month after her arrest, shortly after the county prosecutor threw out the trespassing charge. More than a dozen supporters gathered outside, some with signs that read "What Would Jesus Do?" She sat in the front row as Mr. Burrick preached about "infidels in the pews," according to reports from those present.

Once again, Mrs. Caskey was escorted out by a state trooper and taken to jail, where she posted the $62 bail and was released. After that, the county prosecutor dismissed the charge and told county law enforcement not to arrest her again unless she was creating a disturbance.

In the following weeks, Mrs. Caskey continued to worship at Allen Baptist. Some congregants no longer spoke to her or passed the offering plate, and some changed seats if she sat next to them, she says.

Mr. Burrick repeatedly declined to comment on Mrs. Caskey's case, calling it a "private ecclesiastical matter." He did say that while the church does not "blacklist" anyone, a strict reading of the Bible requires pastors to punish disobedient members. "A lot of times, flocks aren't willing to submit or be obedient to God," he said in an interview before a Sunday evening service. "If somebody is not willing to be helped, they forfeit their membership."

In Christianity's early centuries, church discipline led sinners to cover themselves with ashes or spend time in the stocks. In later centuries, expulsion was more common. Until the late 19th century, shunning was widely practiced by American evangelicals, including Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists. Today, excommunication rarely occurs in the U.S. Catholic Church, and shunning is largely unheard of among mainline Protestants.

Little Consensus

Among churches that practice discipline, there is little consensus on how sinners should be dealt with, says Gregory Wills, a theologian at Southern Baptist Theological seminary. Some pastors remove members on their own, while other churches require agreement among deacons or a majority vote from the congregation.

Since Mrs. Caskey's second arrest last July, the turmoil at Allen Baptist has fizzled into an awkward stalemate. Allen Baptist is an independent congregation, unaffiliated with a church hierarchy that might review the ouster. Supporters have urged Mrs. Caskey to sue to have her membership restored, but she says the matter should be settled in the church. Mr. Burrick no longer calls the police when Mrs. Caskey shows up for Sunday services.

Since November, Mrs. Caskey has been attending a Baptist church near her winter home in Tavares, Fla. She plans to go back to Allen Baptist when she returns to Michigan this spring.

"I don't intend to abandon that church," Mrs. Caskey says. "I feel like I have every right to be there."


[url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120061470848399079.html?mod=todays_us_nonsub_weekendjournal]Source of article[/url]

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SimpleLiving

First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Ala., a 1,000-member congregation, expels five to seven members a year for "blatant, undeniable patterns of willful sin," which have included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders. About 400 people have left the church over the years for what they view as an overly harsh persecution of sinners, Pastor Jeff Noblit says.

This is the church Paul Washer attends. If this is Biblical, I really need someone to show it to me.

Was this really a church practice? Is it Biblical? The circumstance the above paragraph give are understandable to me. It's the ones below that shock me. The idea of escorting a 71 year old woman out doesn't sit well with me.

Half an hour later, 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey, a church member for nearly 50 years who had taught Sunday school and regularly donated 10% of her pension, was led out by a state trooper and a county sheriff's officer. One held her purse and Bible. The other put her in handcuffs.

The charge was trespassing, but Mrs. Caskey's real offense, in her pastor's view, was spiritual. Several months earlier, when she had questioned his authority, he'd charged her with spreading "a spirit of cancer and discord" and expelled her from the congregation. "I've been shunned," she says.


Help me, guys. I need counsel on this. This is very upsetting to me. This article has several incidents that my brain can't process.

M
Miccah


SimpleLiving wrote:

Help me, guys. I need counsel on this. This is very upsetting to me. This article has several incidents that my brain can't process.

I cannot explain what elders do in their churches, but I do believe that what First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, AL did is biblical. If you are a confessed believer and submit yourself to the eldership in the church, they do have the authroity to make decisions, even if it is not popular with the congregation.

As for the 400 people leaving the church... most people leave a church for two main reasons, conviction or false message. It sounds like this church is not for the those with thin skin.


After the initial shock of handcuffing someone that reminds me of my grandmother, I started to think on this.

There has to be more to the story then this. I am sure they are out there, and this may be one of them, but I personally don't know one church that will ask you to leave if you don't agree with everything the pastor says. Maybe I am sheltered, but it feels like there is more to this then meets the eye. Overall though, horrible PR locking up a church member.


I guess the true question is, where does leadership in the church start and end and what type of submission do we put ourselves in when we are a part of that body?

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sermonindex

Help me, guys. I need counsel on this. This is very upsetting to me. This article has several incidents that my brain can't process.
My brain is having a hard time processing this too. I can't help but think that these Pastors are wrong in what they are doing.

It's like these Pastors have set up a totalitarian government.

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SimpleLiving

I cannot explain what elders do in their churches, but I do believe that what First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, AL did is biblical. If you are a confessed believer and submit yourself to the eldership in the church, they do have the authroity to make decisions, even if it is not popular with the congregation.

To the American Church, the true gospel is not popular. I've not found anything about FBCMS to be unbiblical before this, so I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt until I get an answer in prayer, due to my lack of wisdom.

As for the 400 people leaving the church... most people leave a church for two main reasons, conviction or false message. It sounds like this church is not for the those with thin skin.

No offense, but I'm looking for scriptural clarity. Frankly, Christianity is not for the thin-skinned. You have to be thick-skinned to give up your life and spend it all on Him. You have to be thick-skinned to withstand the sure persecution that you'll bear as a Christian. No, True Christianity is not for the thin-skinned. Thin-skinned people are about themselves and don't want their self-esteem bruised.


After the initial shock of handcuffing someone that reminds me of my grandmother, I started to think on this.

Much of what true Christianity is about would shock the world. Little old grandmothers are not exempt from the standard of the Word. Again, I'm looking for scriptural clarity.

There has to be more to the story then this. I am sure they are out there, and this may be one of them, but I personally don't know one church that will ask you to leave if you don't agree with everything the pastor says. Maybe I am sheltered, but it feels like there is more to this then meets the eye. Overall though, horrible PR locking up a church member.

I don't care about PR and neither does God. I agree there must be more to the story. I doubt all of these "discipline churches" can be lumped together in one category. Some must be operating Biblically and some may be operating as bullies. The Wall Street Journal is not what I would consider to be a reliable unbiased source. One must consider the source.

I guess the true question is, where does leadership in the church start and end and what type of submission do we put ourselves in when we are a part of that body?

Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep. The shepherd has a duty to his flock and to the house of God. I can understand that. If people are blatantly committing adultery, gossiping about the pastor, causing strife and disunity in the church, and they're approached privately about it and scoff at the Biblical reproof, I can understand asking them to leave. Businesses have the right to ask unruly people to leave, how much more should the house of God? Shepherds don't allow wolves to run free among the sheep because they claim to have a right to. A shepherd has a duty to protect his flock.

The last quote above actually helped me process this information. The Bible is clear about submitting to authority and the church elders are an authority. It's accountability. If people are in rebellion of that, they're sinning and a stumbling block.

I would still like some scriptural clarification on this, but I'm beginning to understand it a bit better.

L
Lawevangelis

These actions may or may not be in line with Scripture. If they followed the pattern laid out by the Lord Himself in Matthew 18:15-17, they are in line.

Churches that do not practice church discipline invite compromise. I thank God that our church does. It has not been easy when someone is disciplined, but it has had a purifying effect on the church.

Blessings,

Jon

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Nellie

Can anyone see Jesus taking these actions?
I can't.
I don't know the whole story, but don't see how any of it brings glory to God.
Nellie

C
Compton

Here is a photo of our congregation subjecting a woman to the cucking stool for complaining about the pastor's sermon.

[image][img]http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/46/300px-Cucking_stool.png[/img]

:-P A little humor.

MC

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ginnyrose

Nellie,
How would you interpret 1 Corinthians 5?

ginnyrose

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GodsOwnFool

I'm convinced that churches do need to discipline their members, but I think that some pastors and churches abuse that discipline. Church members who are living in sin and making no effort to change should be removed from the church. But I think that removing someone because she insisted on following the Church Constitution is wrong, unless there was more to the situation than this article revealed.

T
tjservant

This article seems to be intentionally painting a very poor picture of “Christians” and their hate filled intolerant ways.

Satanic propaganda.

C
Compton

The problem of how to handle discipline will always be controversial. From a spiritual standpoint, leaving it up to a congregation invites complacency and confusion; from a practical standpoint leaving it up to a single man invites corruption and cruelty.

MC

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sermonindex

Half an hour later, 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey, a church member for nearly 50 years who had taught Sunday school and regularly donated 10% of her pension, was led out by a state trooper and a county sheriff's officer. One held her purse and Bible. The other put her in handcuffs.

This article is not from God's perspective but a persons who's desire is to make church discipline look bad. These are erroneous cases of church discipline and I have been involved with ones almost as bad myself. Church discipline is not the pastor wanting to be respected (that will be gained by his godly life). Church discipline is counseling and if necessary shunning from the fellowship those that are in willful sin.

This is totally biblical and needs to be practiced again,

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sermonindex

I was just gonna say... the agenda behind the article is to sensationalize this and make it look bad. Thats obvious.

Church discipline is important, scriptural and much needed. But it must be done properly and in order, and can never be abusive. In fact, it should be loving.

I'm not sure that churches should call the sheriff tho... that seems a bit extreme. I'm totally against letting the government get a foot in the door, that can be very dangerous to our freedoms. We should not involve the government in matters of church policy (as long as nothing illegal is going on). But then, I dont know the situation. Who's to say this lady wasnt being disruptive? If she was, then yes, call the authorities. If not... dont think it should be taken to that extreme.

Krispy

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sermonindex

I'm convinced that churches do need to discipline their members, but I think that some pastors and churches abuse that discipline
I agree, I've seen to much of this and it's sickening.

I want to bring something to the table in regards to this. Who does Church disciplining anyway? Is it really the job of the Pastor to monitor who's sinning and who's not? Sin's that are evident in someone's life can be easily monitored, but what do you do with sins of the heart. The kind that if you just look upon a woman to lust, you've [b]ALREADY[/b]committed adultery in your heart.

Pastors may as well throw everyone out of the church including himself because everyone is guilty.

I am for discipline, correction and rebukes, but where do we draw the line?

Is this another form of legalism?

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sermonindex

Here is a two part message series on church discipline by Jeff Noblit (Pastor of Muscle Shoals Bible Baptist Church):

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15355&commentView=itemComments]Part 1[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15356&commentView=itemComments]Part 2[/url]

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iansmith

Did anyone else find that this old woman's words and attitude were willful, stubborn and proud? Even after being asked to leave she didn't change her attitude but became even more flagrant with her defiance.

If this was truly an aged woman of God, she would submit for the sake of peace 1 Peter 5:5b says '[b]All of you[/b], clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."' Earlier in 1 Peter it say 'all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brother, be compassionate and humble.' (1 Pet 3:8) This woman doesn't appear to want to be in harmony with her church leadership. Peter then goes on to quote from Psalm 34 and encourages us to 'Seek Peace.'

Now I don't believe the church is totally faultless. They didn't use wisdom in dealing with this woman -they went to extreme measures to show her the error of her attitude and divisive spirit. However I don't believe they should have brought the police into a church matter.

1 Corinthians 6:1-8
1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

I myself have been threatened with church discipline on one occasion, even though in retrospect I believe my leaders were out of line, I can see that there was fault with my attitude and heart. But I repented before my leaders of what I had done and submitted to their authority. I believe that I am responsible for my own actions, even if my leaders were wrong in the way they went about what they had to do, I needed to make the proper choice for the moment -I chose to do what was necessary to restore harmony and seek peace, I submitted, I have no regrets.

C
crsschk

Did anyone else find that this old woman's words and attitude were willful, stubborn and proud? Even after being asked to leave she didn't change her attitude but became even more flagrant with her defiance.

Yes.

Quite a bit that is troublesome with this ... everything from tale-bearing to not having all the facts to begin with ... makes the whole thing rather difficult to respond to ...

I
iansmith

Did a quick search for the Pastor's name and found this note in a Christian college alumni newsletter.

Jason Burrick
Pastor of the Allen Baptist Church in Allen, Michigan
Our graduate Jason Burrick became the pastor of the Allen Baptist Church in Allen, Michigan, on September 10, 2005. The church then had a membership of 13 people. The town of Allen has a total population of 220 people with about 70,000 people in the surrounding area.
On November 6, 2005, the Allen Baptist Church had 91 in attendance with 25 souls saved for the week. In the nine weeks that Jason Burrick has been the pastor, they have had over 50 visitors and 43 people saved.
Sounds to me like revival, or at least a bit of fresh wind. If these numbers are true, and the fruit is lasting, this man certainly has a annointing. He attended Hyles-Anderson College, a small Christian college in Indiana - http://www.hylesanderson.com

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sermonindex

Half an hour later, 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey, a church member for nearly 50 years who had taught Sunday school and regularly donated 10% of her pension, was led out by a state trooper and a county sheriff's officer. One held her purse and Bible. The other put her in handcuffs.

Friends and family describe her as a generous woman who helped pay the electricity bill for Allen Baptist, in Allen, Mich., when funds were low, gave the church $1,200 after she sold her van, and even cut the church's lawn on occasion. She has requested an engraved image of the church on her tombstone.


[b]Mrs. Caskey asked him to appoint a board of deacons to help govern the church, a tradition [u]outlined in the church's charter.[/u][/b]

In April 2006, Mrs. Caskey received a stern letter from Mr. Burrick. "This church will not tolerate this spirit of cancer and discord that you would like to spread," it said. Mrs. Caskey, along with Mr. and Mrs. Church, continued to insist that the pastor follow the church's constitution. In August, she received a letter from Mr. Burrick that said her failure to repent had led to her removal. It also said he would not write her a transfer letter enabling her to join another church, a requirement in many Baptist congregations, until she had "made things right here at Allen Baptist."

Mrs. Caskey went back to the church about a month after her arrest, shortly after the county prosecutor threw out the trespassing charge.

More than a dozen supporters gathered outside, some with signs that read "What Would Jesus Do?"

Once again, Mrs. Caskey was escorted out by a state trooper and taken to jail, where she posted the $62 bail and was released.

After that, the county prosecutor dismissed the charge and told county law enforcement not to arrest her again unless she was creating a disturbance.

We used to call this type Pastoring "shepherding movements".


In any denomination, a Church's Charter cannot be undone by a pastor.

This is not the definition of a shepherd of His Sheep.


When people are not allowed to "test all things" - even the Pastor - and their Bibles, about Elders and Deacons - that is called "shepherding".

No office in the church is above the Bible, the denomination's or church's Charter or beyond being questioned if their actions are tyranical and using "the secular law" in a case like this is total unscriptural Lunacy.

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

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sermonindex

Sounds to me like revival, or at least a bit of fresh wind. If these numbers are true, and the fruit is lasting, this man certainly has an anointing
Benny Hinn must have the same anointing and all the others that are out there that are bringing in the masses. Is numbers a true sign that someone has an anointing?

Not being critical, just a curious question.

I
iansmith

She has requested an engraved image of the church on her tombstone.

Mrs. Caskey asked him to appoint a board of deacons to help govern the church, a tradition outlined in the church's charter.

I would like to juxtapose these two sentences if I may to prove a very subtle point. Mrs. Caskey doesn't appear to be interested in the church, ie. the people it represents or it's leadership, but instead in the investment she's put into it.

This church had dwindled to a dozen or so members. What we don't know is how many people were actually qualified as deacons, and whether or not she was hoping that she would be called upon as a deaconess.

A church in this state of disrepair doesn't need deacons, it needs a revival!

What deacons were not in the New Testament were rulers, or councils. Deacons were to feed the poor, and take care of the sick... but deacons in our modern churches have become religious councils like the ones Sanhedrin.

Churches are not democracies as much as sheep flocks are not democracies. The Shepherd, and those ordained to lead his sheep have been chosen, and although they should be kept accountable, it is no one in the congregation's right to gossip or slander their leader.

M
MrBillPro


Compliments wrote:
Is numbers a true sign that someone has an anointing?

Not being critical, just a curious question.

Hey to me thats a good question, but I don't believe numbers have anything to do with anything, I think God has everything to do with everything. :-)

S
sermonindex

Mrs. Caskey doesn't appear to be interested in the church, ie. the people it represents or it's leadership, but instead in the investment she's put into it.
Has anyone considered giving the gal a call and asking her? Were just playing guessing games, and assumptions. :-(

J
JennRich


Compliments wrote:
I want to bring something to the table in regards to this. Who does Church disciplining anyway? Is it really the job of the Pastor to monitor who's sinning and who's not?

I'm a member of FBC Muscle Shoals. Here's a little bit about how church discipline is handled at our church:

When it becomes publicly known that one of our members is in a [i]pattern[/i] of open sin and rebellion (i.e. adultery, drunkenness, etc.), his Small Group leader goes to that person and quietly addresses the matter with him, in a spirit of love and humility. The goal is that he will see the seriousness of his sin, and repent. If he refuses to listen, then one or two more members meet with him, urging him to repent, and offering help and prayer through his struggles with that particular sin.

Many private meetings take place with the person in question before anything is brought before the church -- and only then when it becomes crystal clear that he has no desire to leave his pattern of sin. When the matter needs to be addressed before the church, the elders and pastor only do so with a broken heart. They always preface it with this: that it is our goal to [i]restore[/i] this person to our fellowship, not drive him away. We pray that he will be miserable in his sin, so that he will run to Christ and experience full forgiveness and cleansing.

We just had a matter brought before our church last Sunday, and our pastor was crying during the discussion of it. It was not done with a spirit of self-righteousness, but of deep concern for the Lord's reputation (and purity of His body), and love for the brother living in rebellion.

Again, this is for open, willful sin, not just "slipping" into sin while trying to fight it.

S
sermonindex

Compliments wrote:


Pastors may as well throw everyone out of the church including himself because everyone is guilty.

I am for discipline, correction and rebukes, but where do we draw the line?

Is this another form of legalism?

The spiritual man judges all things righteously. The fleshly is deceived by his own lusts and judges unrighteously. Anything that aims at establishing the authority and honor of man is of the flesh, and is therefore unrighteous. This is common for the carnal and unrepentant. On the hand, the spiritual man's goal is to glorify God even if he suffers persecution for it. Even when people revile him for truth's sake, on his part God is glorified.

So where do we draw the line? Who is to judge? Who gives man authority to decide what is right in such disputable matters? The pastor, the elders, the denomination, the majority, the law, or some other individual or party? This is a question which we must answer before we continue this conversation. I believe there is only one Giver and one Judge. He will not allow any flesh to glory in His presence. No man can have his way and keep God's blessing. So He, not us, will have to draw the line.

Lest we fall into unreality, we must thrive on the God's truth. We must not forget that the Lord knows those that are His, and that His sheep know His voice, and seek face--neither will they follow after another. They seek the things that are above, not the things on earth. To them church membership and the praise of men is of no value. All they seek is to please God. They are completely sufficient in Him. They don't care so much or worry about how they are going to handle this or that, how people will look at them, or how much they will suffer. Because they are slaves of Christ and they yearn to do His will; they no longer live but He lives in them. They are not their own, and they cannot own their own choices. Even if they suffer for His sake they know they will be blessed. These are the children of God. But not all are children of the light.

Since light and darkness have nothing in common, they may have to part company with people who seek their own glory, even good religious people such as pastors, elders, who try to lord it over their flock, not trusting but grieving the Spirit. This is more often the case today because the truth is scarcely preached and lived. If it is preached, sinners cannot stand in the pews unmoved. They will either repent or leave. They won't need to be asked to leave the church... unless they have always been children of the devil. The more frequent scenario is when God calls someone and shows them His glory. They have found life in Him, but also see that others don't appear to be partaking of it. They sense that there is something wrong with the church--that people live a lie--and the Lord gives them boldness so they speak up against it. If the people don't listen, the Christian will often be expelled or shunned as a divisive and rebellious person. The Lord will then lead him out to find pasture somewhere else. Light and darkness cannot dwell together in one place.

Of the apostolic times we often read, "the Spirit said thus" or "the Spirit told them to do this." May I ask, Is this same Holy Spirit insufficient today to accomplish the duties of God's people? Are we seeking the Spirit's mind or do we judge by what is conventional, convenient, rational, common? I believe the line here is very thin. In fact, it is impossible for men to succeed on their own. Our human standards are not like God's. We try to make Him in our own image. We don't judge what we ought to judge, and we judge what we ought not to judge. Our only hope is in Christ: that as we offer ourselves in faith as a living sacrifice to Him, we will ascertain His perfect will and He will by no means dishonor us. We should surrender to Him our opinions, our judgments, our prejudices, our intentions, and seek instead His mind and His wisdom, which no man can contradict. And when we give up what is ours--even our very life--we will receive that which is much better from Him (wisdom not carnal or bestial, but heavenly), and we will know what we must do.

The truth is that we are not there yet. We lack in knowledge, in wisdom, in discerment. We are not as spiritual as we think we should be. We are not qualified to make those hard choices. We are not. But praise God "who chose the things that are not to bring to nothing the things that are"! So, all I can say is: trust in Him, seek Him, ask Him, listen to Him, obey Him, patiently. Depend on God for everything. He IS enough! If we did that in our churches, we wouldn't need to analyze so much hypothetical situations because the glory of God will be among us.

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