The Arminian 'gospel'? (Spurgeon)

strong.

This makes me glad that I am neither an Arminian OR a Calvinist!

I had to smile when I read this. I just ended up deleting a post for this thread not 10 minutes ago. I had it all typed out - a rational reply on how unbalanced [i]both[/i] sides are (independant of each other), and how, like in algebra, to solve for "x" one must cancel out the factors on both sides of the equal sign.

Well, I was rubbing my hands together, ready to click "submit" and then remembered the Lord's admonition years ago: "Paul, you said you wouldn't get involved in these types of discussions on SermonIndex. If you post this, you'll only generate an argument."

It was nice to see Krispy use simple arithmetic. :-)

This makes me glad that I am neither an Arminian OR a Calvinist!

phil

That is to say, a man may be forgiven, and yet be punished
afterwards; he may be justified from all sin, and yet after that,
his transgressions can be laid on his shoulders again;
a man may be born of God, and yet die in his sins; a man may
be loved of God today, and yet God may hate him tomorrow.

What's the Calvinist interpretation of this parable?

Mat 18:22 \t Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 \tTherefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 \tAnd when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 \tBut forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 \tThe servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 \t[b]Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.[/b]
Mat 18:28 \tBut the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 \tAnd his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 \tAnd he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 \tSo when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 \tThen his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 \tShouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 \tAnd his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, [b]till he should pay all that was due unto him.[/b]
Mat 18:35 \t[b]So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/b]

PreachParsly wrote:

That is to say, a man may be forgiven, and yet be punished
afterwards; he may be justified from all sin, and yet after that,
his transgressions can be laid on his shoulders again;
a man may be born of God, and yet die in his sins; a man may
be loved of God today, and yet God may hate him tomorrow.

What's the Calvinist interpretation of this parable?

Mat 18:22 \t Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 \tTherefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 \tAnd when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 \tBut forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 \tThe servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 \t[b]Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.[/b]
Mat 18:28 \tBut the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 \tAnd his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 \tAnd he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 \tSo when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 \tThen his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 \tShouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 \tAnd his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, [b]till he should pay all that was due unto him.[/b]
Mat 18:35 \t[b]So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/b]

AMEN PreachParsely, it is undeniable what this text is saying-so perfectly put....

Dear Abe_Juliott

I noted that nearly all your posts are centered around this age old debate. I have a great respect for Spurgeon and listen to him ofen but I think he had a quite simplistic view of Arminianism. I am not picking up a fight with you, God bless you.

.
Siboleth or Shiboleth? Many fruitless and loveless words have been lost in this debate. Brother kills brother in 'friendly' fire.

Here is an anekdote from A.W.Tozer's biography:

I (Cliff Westergren) was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, "Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?"

And I'll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, "My son, when you get to college you're going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I'll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you'll be way down the line and they'll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God."

I am neither and both - call me a Christian. If I would tell you my position and you would disagree with me I am still looking forward to share eternity with you.

Philip

sermonindex wrote:
If we are promoting man's system of theology more then the scriptures and even God Himself (Christ) then we are already off base.

The Calvinist and the Arminian both believe they are promoting God and scripture. It’s just that they each believe they do it better than the other.

Is this not the crux of the matter?

Galatians 5:14 - 15 (ESV) 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

More words on top of more words on more threads... you would think there is going to be a segregated heaven. In the meantime....

Clint

Abe_Juliot wrote:
Let the Arminian go and preach his 'gospel'.
Let them go and tell poor sinners, that if they believe in Jesus
they may be damned after all, that Jesus Christ will forgive
them and yet the Father may afterwards send them to hell.

Joh 15:1-7 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [b] If[/b] a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and [b]I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

this clearly implies he can blot out your name....

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

this also seem like a threat from the Lord....

and there are many more i can find through the gospels, and in the letters of Paul, all his warnings to believers, and the other apostles letters, also letter to the Hebrews is filled with frightening verses...

All promises of God, even salvation comes with a condition, i can see it in scripture

hmmhmm wrote:

Abe_Juliot wrote:
Let the Arminian go and preach his 'gospel'.
Let them go and tell poor sinners, that if they believe in Jesus
they may be damned after all, that Jesus Christ will forgive
them and yet the Father may afterwards send them to hell.

Joh 15:1-7 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [b] If[/b] a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and [b]I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

this clearly implies he can blot out your name....

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

this also seem like a threat from the Lord....

and there are many more i can find through the gospels, and in the letters of Paul, all his warnings to believers, and the other apostles letters, also letter to the Hebrews is filled with frightening verses...

All promises of God, even salvation comes with a condition, i can see it in scripture

AMEN

Abe_Juliot wrote:
I don't mean to stir up division or exalt Calvinism.

Abraham, don't you realize that you are doing this very thing, thread after thread, months after months now? It is time for you finally to realize this. It was too much, actually 'too much' is very light word.

It is one thing what you are causing to yourself (putting God in box and unable to see anything else out of that box), it is other thing what your threads are causing to the body here.

I am telling you this with seriousness and brotherly love for considering.

Kire

Abe_Juliot wrote:

What's the Calvinist interpretation of this parable?

I can tell you what it doesn't mean.

It could not mean that a born again child of God may perish in the end:

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

If your born of God, you...
1. Sinneth not
2. keepeth yourself
3. And that wicked one toucheth you not

Those who are born of God cannot practice habitual sin.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Notice the very reason why they cannot, is because they are born of God...

Not because of their keeping themselves and sinnething not. Though they do keepeth themselves and sinneth not... this is not the foundation of their hope. The Foundation of their hope is in the finished work of Jesus and that God has promised that the work he began will be victorious.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God bless you dear brothers and sisters! -Abraham

Well the thing about the parable is; it isn't habitual sin-it was a one time act of sin=him not having mercy and compassion for his brother/fellowservant

The Bible teaches that if a brother doesn't love his brother, then eternal life doesn't REMAIN in him

And pertaining to 1 John 5:18-let me ask you, since you have been saved-have you ever sinned?

Mahoney wrote:
This is a perfect example of someone approaching scripture with their own " system of theology". This statement is just not true. If you look at the promise that God gave David, concerning his house, their was no condition. God promised David that He would build him a house and that someone would always reign upon his throne...period...no condition. This is just one example.

so can i be saved if i dont repent and dont believe?

or could it be right to say if you want to be saved the conditions are faith and repentance?

or can we be saved without them?

every promise has a condition, you read a promise in the bible, you can in almost every verse before or after find a condition to that promise. Go through the NT and see for yourself

Abe_Juliot quoted

The Arminian 'gospel'?

Spurgeon, "The Two Effects of the Gospel"

Phrases like "he would hold [that gem] up", "And how would Satan chuckle", "And plunging him in the waves of hell", and "says Satan with a malignant joy". I do not see Satan chuckling or having joy, for it is described as a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. The scripture says, [color=009900]Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [b]shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/b][/color] And a few others are thrown in, including sadly, those who have rejected Christ, [color=009900]Rev 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/color]

The worldly view is that hell will be a place where the Devil torments lost souls. This is so far from the truth that it deceives many. But rather it is a place that all who are lost, including the devil will be tormented together. And as important, if not more so, it is a place that the Lord manages! For Revelation shows earlier that [color=009900]Rev 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone [b]in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:[/b][/color] It is fearful to think that the Lord will be watching what goes on there forever :-( :-o :-? :-(

If we begin to realise that hell (and technically, I mean the lake of fire at this stage) is somewhere where Christ deliberately places people and others, we might be less surprised that it might include those that at one time had a faith in Him, which some of the parable quoted seem to imply. When Spurgeon states:

I suppose that if one believer were to be in hell, Christ himself would not long stay in heaven, but would cry, "To the rescue!"

I will finish with a verse which I believe sets the right tone; [color=009900]2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to [b]make your calling and election sure[/b]: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:[/color] Better to have made absolutely certain you, and others, will not be there, than take a risk with a doctrine, that if it is wrong, could have eternal and devastating consequences.

Kind regards
Mike

Mahoney wrote:

or could it be right to say if you want to be saved the conditions are faith and repentance?

And again, another example of a "system of theology"

We both agree that justification absolutley includes faith and repentance.

Your system of theology categorizes faith and repentence as "conditions" of Salvation.

The system that I hold to categorizes faith and repentence as "fruit" of the Gospel.

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"...the Gospel.

"It is the goodness (the Gospel) of God that leads man to repentence.

well we may call it different, and as for a system i dont know :-)

my system is quite messed up according to all the other ones.... i see truths in scripture from calvin and arminus and some others, and sometimes i think Wesley is closest to the truth...and sometimes i just scratch my head and says "thou knowest all things"

and i say as Job

Job 40:3-5 Then Job replied to the LORD, "I am nothing--how could I ever find the answers? I will put my hand over my mouth in silence. I have said too much already. I have nothing more to say." ~ NLT

For those of you who have any interest, read or listen to the sermons of Whitfield, Spurgeon, Piper, Washer. These men aren't just theologians, they were and are evangelists and their messages are literally bathed in the doctrines of grace. It is very easy to categorize those doctrines as "Calvinism" and then dismiss them as the worship of a person or a doctrinal camp. That would be wrong. The right criticism is if a doctrine becomes an end of itself and not the means to an end, which is knowing God, then we need to reassess what we are doing. If Abe or any other brother wants us to know God better by sharing truth ( or at least the truth he believes ) then he should be free to share it. Many of those on this site are more concerned with attacking the doctrines by attacking the man or attacking some other historical figure. ( they have a phrase for that in debate ) For example, if someone says that a believer has eternal security which is an extremely important doctrine ( either way ) then invariably the thread degenerates to a statement that Calvinists are cold and nonevangelistic and John Calvin murdered Servetes (sp?). If someone says that God's grace overcomes a person's natural enmity with God, then the thread invariable degenerates to a statement that the God who would do that is a monster and believers are robots if that is true.

I have been guilty at times of intellectual Calvinism and that is wrong. I'm sure there are other believers like me who've made that mistake by focusing too much on a doctrine. It works both ways though, the anger expressed by some at the presentation of a truth that violates man's will is equally convicting. If Hmmmm or anyone else thinks God's grace in salvation is conditional then he should be entilted to present that position without fear that he will be ostracized or called out for presenting a "divisive" issue. Unity is not agreement on the issues. Unity is a devotion and single heartededness to Christ. We can disagree and still have unity. Unity does not require us to avoid the issues, unity in love determines how we react to the issues.

Abe, I happen to agree with your theology. We all could use self examination to make sure we're not presenting truth to win an argument with men. Nonetheless, I appreciate your apparent sincere desire to present God in His glory the way you see Him in Scripture. Thank you and not just because I agree with you position.

Unity does not require us to avoid the issues, unity in love determines how we react to the issues.

Good word brother. I have learned a lot over the last few days by reading some outstanding posts about Cal. and Arm.

Just a thought I had while pondering this whole question. Will all this really matter when persecution and tribulation hit America.
How will we stand together in adversity when we can't in so called peace?
All these issues we hold so dear to our hearts are not going to matter, just Christ and His Word.
Will it matter if we are Calvenist/Armenian, if we sing hymns or chouruses, if we wear pants or skirts(as long as we are modest and not causing our brothers to stumbble), if we wear a head covering or not, if we KJV or some other version, what denomination we are. Will it matter?
We are called to be holy and live righteously. I am not saying accept anything but we must quit majoring on what men say.

Greetings, servhmonly. I must say that I believe it does matter.

In response to the "Five Points of Calvinism", a young man recently said to me, "I have only one Point in Christianity - Jesus Christ." This "One Point of Jesus Christ" sounds valiant and wise, but it cannot negate the simple fact that there is either unconditional election or there is not. Running away from the issue will not make it dissolve, and the difference between the two, I am convinced, may be as large as justification by grace alone through faith alone. If these doctrines did not matter there would have been no reason for the Holy Spirit to express them in thousands of verses of scripture.

I am not saying that the whole gospel is solely the doctrine of election, or just the doctrine of particular redemption, but election and the atonement are why the gospel works. Christ really atoned for a real people. He really bore their sins. Can you imagine having to pay back a debt that someone already paid for you? That would be a double payment and it would be unfair. If Christ bore all of the sins of everyone who ever lived, then no one would have any sin left to pay for in hell. What about those already in hell? Did He bear their sins or not? I affirm that it does matter, when stating that Christ atoned only for those who believe, though it is truly offered to all.

This same young man went on to say heroically, somewhat as you have, that Calvinism and Arminianism would not matter one iota to the martyr locked in a cell for a decade. He cited Richard Wurmbrand, the Romanian Lutheran who suffered under communist persecution and was rarely recognized for raising a doctrinal cloud over such issues. However, begging to differ, I will cite an Apostle. Ten years into a prison sentence I would like to be comforted as Paul by the knowledge that the saints' perseverance is promised, their salvation was ordained, and all of it was because of God's mysterious love, not because of anything He foresaw me or anyone doing.

"After that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:4-7

Peace in truth,
Michael:.

why do we have all the warnings in scripture to live holy?

why do Jesus threatens "repent or else"

he says this to believers..... elect if you will...

i know there are many verses that speak about God keeping us, it is he who does it, I trust in him to do it I cant do it, but yet, there are many many verses that say WE have to do somethings. I mean how many times are there verses that say something wonderful and then "IF" or the one who "DOES"

and the parable about the sower we see some believed for a little wile and then fell away. They did believe and then left the faith, i think it is very clear it is possible to fall away, to have genuine faith, true saving faith given by God and yet go to hell.

Can anyone else see that when going through NT?

I see it as this, God died for ALL who believes, and he gives people opportunity to accept him or not, to believe or not to believe. I see no contradiction between God in his sovereign wisdom and power allowing man to make a choice. If God made us robots he would get no glory, what kind of love is that? its like buying one of those dolls for my little girl, you pull a string on the dolls back it says "I love you"

that is not real love

real love is a "choice"

he first loved us....

now i chose to love him, how can i not? how can anyone who has seen the risen son of God not love him? some fall away tho, says the word...

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

anyway, i like that dude who had a one point ;-)
I mean we do make all this "fuzz" about doctrines, needed as they are... but Enoch walked with God without our bible, but they probably had some discussions about things.... and what about Job? the oldest book in the bible? what testimony God gave him! [i]And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? [/i]

and he dident even have the Holy Spirit in the same way we have it. That we despite doctrine differences would rise up, i mean it would be a shame if we dident walk "above" Jobs testimony as our standard, he dident have God through the spirit dwelling inside him.... we do.... so lately this has been my "agony"....

to rise up to live the standard that is presented in the NT, and i think this is what the unsaved look fore, despite what doctrine we preach... do we walk with God?

that is my challenge and rebuke to me

I dont know if Andrew Murray was Calvinist or what... but despite that, everyone take a good 20 minutes read this short excerpt from one of his small books,

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21772&forum=34&3]confessing our shortcomings[/url]

PS: when can we hear erins new songs?

EDIT:

Also, this may not be some peoples sermon pick of the week, but.... you will start to think about what [i]really[/i] is important [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=4146]Gods Love by Corrie Ten Boom[/url]

Why should the "Calvinist" camp, (for want of a better term), claim to have a monopoly on understanding grace? Or why is Calvinist theology given the label, "the doctrines of grace", as if no other interpretation of Scripture does justice to the grace of God?

It is because the term "grace" in the Calvinist/Reformed/Lutheran use has a different meaning than in the Arminian use. I will try to give a more thorough answer later, but I need to rest for a bit.

by servhmonly on 2008/1/26 4:20:15

Just a thought I had while pondering this whole question. Will all this really matter when persecution and tribulation hit America.
How will we stand together in adversity when we can't in so called peace?
All these issues we hold so dear to our hearts are not going to matter, just Christ and His Word.
Will it matter if we are Calvenist/Armenian, if we sing hymns or chouruses, if we wear pants or skirts(as long as we are modest and not causing our brothers to stumbble), if we wear a head covering or not, if we KJV or some other version, what denomination we are. Will it matter?
We are called to be holy and live righteously. I am not saying accept anything but we must quit majoring on what men say.

The question may not be as hypothetical as you think.

If Total Depravity is realised by the church, practical application would be that a lot of emphasis will be on prayer, because it is acknowledged that only God can convert the soul. In fact, when everyone prays for the salvation of another and that God will soften the heart of the non-believer, he is being calvinistic that very moment even if he does not realise it. because in so doing, he recognises God's sovereignity in salvation and that only God can convert and draw the soul to him. The Calvinistic church understands that their prayers is one of the the means that God is using to bring about the salvation of the lost (the ends) The Arminian believes that man can reject God's will and therefore, prayer becomes useless since God does not infringe on man's will.

Perservance of saints which would mean that those who appear to fall away are obviously not saved in the first place. The church who believes in this fifth point of TULIP would focus less of its resources trying to keep lukewarm members within the church (lest they fall away from an Arminian view), but will focus more on discipling true converts and reaching out to the lost. Leaders are a precious commodity in any organisation. The church included. Yet most of the resources are spent trying to retain false converts.

Secondly, it will also affect the way the church is runned. if the church starts with an Arminian mentality whereby the saved can be lost, then the church will attempt to be seeker-friendly as a means to retain these people. A Calvinistic church would not do the same. The Calvinist church practices church discipline because they recognise that if a true Christian is living in sin for a period of time, he will turn to God following discipline. If he is a false convert, he will leave the church and not falsely console himself that he is saved when he isn't. He is not "innoculated to the gospel" message of repentance in the future because he is well aware that he is not saved in the first place. His identify as a false convert is made plain for him to see.

The Arminianistic church will not practise church discipline because it might turn the true believer away from God and the believer might lose his salvation. The Calvinist church understand that the elect WILL stay in the church, and that Godly disciple WILL correct and refine the church (not destroy it). Godly discipline edifies the church as well as the individual. The implication is that that the focus of the local congregation is Christ centred; the focus is primary on fellowship of saints and worship of God.

A calvinistic understanding on soteriology would also interpret the parables such that they are recognised as speaking of false converts within the church, of whom the false will be exposed on the day of judgement. As a church, the calvinistic one would be alert in identifying the weeds among the tares, understanding that there are false converts within its fold. The Arminian church would typically view the parables as refering to two groups of believers who are both saved, but one is carnal and one is spirit-filled; church discipline is not practised. In application, the calvinistic church will not allow those of questionable character to serve in certain ministry because they may well be false converts. The Arminian church would not mind if that keeps them faithfully coming to church.

The Calvinist church's focus will not be on following up worldly people within the church, but will instead focus their efforts on discipling true converts so as to develop leaders who are strong and biblical in their thinking. I'm not saying that reaching out to questionable converts is not needed. I am saying that the focus would be different.

When the church is Calvinistic in thinking, its focus on evangelism will be one that uses the law to demostrate the depravity of man. The sinful man is shown to be depraved and repentance is needed to come to God. The Arminian would usually coax the believer to just believe in Christ, attend church regularly and then grow in faith along the way.

With this in mind, when push comes to shove, the Calvinistic church if it has applied the above would withstand the greater blow of persecution and testing simply because when it's doctrines have been applied, the result is a church made strong the hard way (think along the lines of the Spartans from greek history).

Sadly, the truth of the matter is that the majority of heresies and compromises that have plagued the church in the past century (the prosperity gospel, seeker friendlyness, Word of Faith, The excessive abuse of spiritual gifts among pentacostals and charismatics) have come from the Arminian side. You would be hard pressed to find a minister who fell into the latter errors that held to a calvinist viewpoint.

Let's go back to Spurgeon: During the latter end of his ministry, he became a major player within the "Downgrade Controversy". Liberal theology was creeping into the church, and the Baptist Union which Spurgeon belonged to was far from immune. In an effort to protect his fellow Baptists, Spurgeon called that the Union draft a statement of faith affirming the essential doctrines. Sadly, the call was denied, and the Metropolitan Tabernacle had to withdraw from the Baptist Union. Yet, one of the main points of doctrine that Spurgeon contended for was Calvinism. It was the Calvinist churches within the Baptist Union that was remaining faithful and weren't compromising themselves in order to appease the prevalence of modernist thinking.

Over a century later, we are dealing with a postmodern society, and a resulting Emergent Church. History has a tendency of repeating itself...

The Arminianistic church will not practise church discipline because it might turn the true believer away from God and the believer might lose his salvation.

Where do you get this from?

we can see in church history, people who has been labeled arminian who practiced much more hard church discipline then any living calvinist today.

You should read some from the methodist/wesley has some very hard discipline

Our brother Abe said in another thread many have calvinism in the head. Maybe this is true, this i do not say only to the ones who hold calvins doctrine dear, but to all,

Paul washer can preach and we sense great burden and power, but he has meet God...

Leonard Ravenhill can preach and send anyone to sleepless nights weeping for mercy for our powerless lifes.... he knew God

we can quote these men and discuss doctrine, i just yesterday heard Paul Washer say many have right theology, they understand calvinism rightly but still are not even close to some who dont have it right but they still walk with God. Some are just parrots who repeat what other men have encountered when meeting God. God forbid we should stay there.

Is your theology real in your life? no matter how many verses you know...is what you preach a reality in your life? if not we are hypocrites.

Just because Paul Washer said it, or Ravenhill or Tozer, even if it is true and right doctrine..i can quote that as if it was my encounter with God. I so often fall into this myself

what ever happend to being a witness?

my encounter with God.

What has God showed you first hand? not second hand by Calvin or Wesley or Ravenhill?

what did God tell you face to face?

do anyone see all these doctrine things is just second best....

i stagger when i hear Zac Poonen say he NEVER preach anything he cant say that he lives 24/7

can I say that?

if we knew God as well as our doctrines we would have revival years ago, our cities would be shaking by the presance of God through our life's.

I have said before and say again.

Most calvinist are lost, most arminians are lost, most professing Christians are lost.

Many are just Christian in name and doctrine. But the only thing that matters is a new creature

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Abe_Juliott, we love you here, do not retreat or withdraw yourself. I am glad you recognized what your well intended posts caused. As I told you, I am looking forward to share eternity with you.

I love to listen to Spurgeon, Murray, Piper and Washer who happen to be Calvinists, it is just not my sole diet.

The problem is that Sermonindex is not a church in a sense of a local community with elders and deacons who can bring in the neccessary loving guidance and correction and have to given and account to God for their keeping of the flock. Due to the virtual nature of the internet it is impossible to recognize people with an examplary walk in Christ who qualify for such an office here in SI. God never intended the church to be virtual.

We have moderators who do a terrific job to maintain this forum but I believe that they also see the limitations imposed by the virtual nature of this forum.

Blog forums albeit Christian are by nature a flat hierarchy cluster of people with somewhat democratic rules. We only see peoples words, not their actions.

We do not pray together and for each other and we do not take the Lords supper together nor do we wash each other feet.

I have found great encouragement from this website here and the 900+ sermon that I have listened to have greatly deepened and solidified my relationship to Christ.

At the same time I can weep tears about the way brother goes against brother in "friendly fire" knowing that Satan is having a party with his demon pals.

We will all be tested and have to give account of every word that we post here.

Philip