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"Holiness" HERESY!!!

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HOLINESS: THE FALSE AND THE TRUE
By Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951)

[b]NOTE: This article is a VERY SHOCKING personal testimony by a man who was involved in the “Second Blessing Holiness” movement, a.k.a. Wesleyan holiness, Christian perfectionism, Entire Sanctification, Perfect love, Eradication of original sin, etc. The man who wrote this article, Harry Ironside, was personally involved with the early Salvation Army, a movement which promoted such “holiness” doctrines; in fact, he was a minister in it and labored in it for a number of years. He sought the “blessing” of “perfect holiness” for years, thought he had “entered in” and was brought through a cycle of condemnation, guilt and hypocrisy that ultimately almost destroyed his Christianity, as it did to many others in his circle. The following is a first hand testimony, written by this man, about what he went through, and how the Lord opened his eyes to trust in the finished work of Christ by faith. If you are involved in any “holiness movement”, Wesleyanism, etc. then DO NOT LET THE ENEMY OF YOUR SOUL PREVENT YOU FROM READING THIS ARTICLE!!! -Josef[/b]

Here is H.A. Ironside's testimony, written by him:

It is my desire, in dependence on the Lord, to write a faithful record, so far as memory now serves me, of some of God's dealings with my soul and my strivings after the experience of holiness, during the first six years of my Christian life, ere I knew the blessedness of finding all in Christ. This will make it necessary at times, I have little doubt, to "speak as a fool"--even as the apostle Paul did: but as I reflect on the need for such a record, I think I can say with him, "Ye have compelled me."

If I may be privileged to thereby save others from the unhappy experiences I passed through in those early years, I shall feel abundantly repaid for the effort it will take to thus put these heart-experiences before my readers.

From a very early age God began to speak to me through His Word. I doubt if I could go back to the first time when, to my recollection, I felt something of the reality of eternal things.

My father was taken from me ere his features were impressed upon my infant mind. But I never have heard him spoken of other than as a man of God. He was known in Toronto (my birthplace) to many as "The Eternity Man." His Bible, marked in many places, was a precious legacy to me; and from it I learned to recite my first verse of Scripture, at the age of four. I distinctly recall learning the blessed words of Luke 19:10, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." That I was lost, and that Christ Jesus came from heaven to save me, were the first divine truths impressed on my young heart.

My widowed mother was, it seems to me, one of a thousand. I remember yet how I would be thrilled as she knelt with me as a child, and prayed, "O Father, keep my boy from ever desiring anything greater than to live for Thee. Save him early, and make him a devoted street-preacher, as his father was. Make him willing to suffer for Jesus' sake, to gladly endure persecution and rejection by the world that cast out Thy Son; and keep him from what would dishonor Thee." The words were not always the same, but I have heard the sentiment times without number.

To our home there often came servants of Christ--plain, godly men, who seemed to me to carry with them the atmosphere of eternity. Yet in a very real sense they were the bane of my boyhood. Their searching, "Henry, lad, are you born again yet?" or the equally impressive, "Are you certain that your soul is saved?" often brought me to a standstill; but I knew not how to reply.

California had become my home ere I was clear as to being a child of God. In Los Angeles I first began to learn the love of the world, and was impatient of restraint. Yet I had almost continual concern as to the great matter of my salvation.

I was but twelve years old when I began a Sunday-school and set up to try to help the boys and girls of the neighborhood to a knowledge of the Book I had read ten times through, but which had still left me without assurance of salvation.

To Timothy, Paul wrote, "From a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:15). It was this latter that I lacked. I had, it seemed to me, always believed, yet I dared not say I was saved. I know now that I had always believed about Jesus. I had not really believed in Him as my personal Saviour. Between the two there is all the difference that there is between being saved and lost, between an eternity in Heaven and endless ages in the lake of fire.

As I have said, I was not without considerable anxiety as to my soul; and though I longed to break into the world, and was indeed guilty of much that was vile and wicked, I ever felt a restraining hand upon me, keeping me from many things that I would otherwise have gone into; and a certain religiousness became, I suppose, characteristic. But religion is not salvation.

I was nearly fourteen years old when, upon returning one day from school, I learned that a servant of Christ from Canada, well known to me, had arrived for meetings. I knew, ere I saw him, how he would greet me; for I remembered him well, and his searching questions, when I was younger. Therefore I was not surprised, but embarrassed nevertheless, when he exclaimed, "Well, Harry, lad, I'm glad to see you. And are you born again yet?"

The blood mantled my face; I hung my head, and could find no words to reply. An uncle present said, "You know, Mr. M--, he preaches himself now a bit, and conducts a Sunday School!"

"Indeed!" was the answer. "Will you get your Bible, Harry?"

I was glad to get out of the room, and so went at once for my Bible, and returned, after remaining out of the room as long as seemed decent, hoping thereby to recover myself. Upon my re-entering the room, he said, kindly, but seriously, "Will you turn to Rom. 3:19, and read it aloud?"

Slowly I read, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." I felt the application, and was at a loss for words. The evangelist went on to tell me that he too had been once a religious sinner, till God stopped his mouth, and then gave him a sight of Christ. He pressed on me the importance of getting to the same place ere I tried to teach others.

The words had their effect. From that time till I was sure I was saved, I refrained from talking of these things, and I gave up my Sunday-school work. But now Satan, who was seeking my soul's destruction, suggested to me, "If lost and unfit to speak of religious things to others, why not enjoy all the world has to offer, so far as you are able to avail yourself of it?"

I listened only too eagerly to his words, and for the next six months or thereabouts no one was more anxious for folly than I, though always with a smarting conscience.

At last, on a Thursday evening in February 1890, God spoke to me in tremendous power while out at a party with a lot of other young people, mostly older than myself, intent only on an evening's amusement. I remember now that I had withdrawn from the parlor for a few moments to obtain a cooling drink in the next room. Standing alone at the refreshment table, there came home to my inmost soul, in startling clearness, some verses of Scripture I had learned months before. They are found in the first chapter of Proverbs, beginning with verse 24 and going on to verse 32. Here wisdom is represented as laughing at the calamity of the one who refused to heed instruction, and mocking when his fear cometh. Every word seemed to burn its way into my heart. I saw as never before my dreadful guilt in having so long refused to trust Christ for myself, and in having preferred my own wilful way to that of Him who had died for me.

I went back to the parlor, and tried to join with the rest in their empty follies. But all seemed utterly hollow, and the tinsel was gone. The light of eternity was shining into the room, and I wondered how any could laugh with God's judgment hanging over us, like a Damocles' sword suspended by a hair. We seemed like people sporting with closed eyes on the edge of a precipice, and I the most careless of all, till grace had made me see.

That night, when all was over, I hurried home, and crept up-stairs to my room. There, after lighting a lamp, I took my Bible, and, with it before me, fell upon my knees.

I had an undefined feeling that I had better pray. But the thought came, "What shall I pray for?" Clearly and distinctly came back the answer, "For what God has been offering me for years. Why not then receive it, and thank Him?"

My dear mother had often said, "The place to begin with God is Romans 3, or John 3." To both these scriptures I turned, and read them carefully. Clearly I saw that I was a helpless sinner, but that Christ for me had died, and that salvation was offered freely to all who trusted in Him. Reading John 3:16 the second time, I said, "That will do. O God, I thank Thee that Thou has loved me, and given Thy Son for me. I trust Him now as my Saviour, and I rest on Thy Word, which tells me I have everlasting life."

Then I expected to feel a thrill of joy. It did not come. I wondered if I could be mistaken. I expected a sudden rush of love for Christ. It did not come either. I feared I could not be really saved with so little emotion.

I read the words again. There could be no mistake. God loved the world, of which I formed a part. God gave His Son to save all believers. I believed in Him as my Saviour. Therefore I must have everlasting life. Again I thanked Him, and rose from my knees to begin the walk of faith. God could not lie. I knew I must be saved.

Holiness: The Great Desideratum

Being saved myself, the first great desires that sprang up in my heart was an intense longing to lead others to the One who had made my peace with God.

At the time of which I write, the Salvation Army was in the zenith of its energy as an organization devoted to going out after the lost. It had not yet become popular, a society to be patronized by the world and used as a medium for philanthropic work. Its officers and soldiers seemed to have but one aim and object--to lead the weary and despairing to the Saviour's feet. I had often attended its services, and in fact had frequently, though but a child, given a "testimony" by quoting Scripture and urging sinners to trust Christ, even while I was in the dark myself. Naturally therefore, when the knowledge of salvation was mine, I went at the first opportunity, the night after my conversion, to an "Army" street-meeting, and there spoke for the first time, in the open air, of the grace of God so newly revealed to my soul.

I suppose, because I was but a lad of fourteen and fairly familiar with the Bible, and also somewhat forward--unduly so, I have little doubt--I was at once cordially welcomed among them, and soon became known as "the boy preacher," a title which, I fear, ministered more to the pride of my heart than I had any idea of at the time. For, in fact, in my new-found joy I had no conception that I still carried about with me a nature as sinful and vile as existed in the breast of the greatest evildoer in the world. I knew something of Christ and His love; I knew little or nothing of myself and the deceitfulness of my own heart.

As nearly as I can now recollect, I was in the enjoyment of the knowledge of God's salvation about a month when, in some dispute with my brother, who was younger than I, my temper suddenly escaped control, and in an angry passion I struck and felled him to the ground. Horror immediately filled my soul. I needed not his sarcastic taunt, "Well, you are a nice Christian! You'd better go down to the Army and tell what a saint you've become!" to send me to my room in anguish of heart to confess my sin to God in shame and bitter sorrow, as afterwards frankly to my brother, who generously forgave me.

From this time on mine was an "up-and-down experience," to use a term often heard in "testimony meetings." I longed for perfect victory over the lusts and desires of the flesh. Yet I seemed to have more trouble with evil thoughts and unholy propensities than I had ever known before. For a long time I kept these conflicts hidden, and known only to God and to myself. But after some eight or ten months, I became interested in what were called "holiness meetings," held weekly in the "Army" hall, and also in a mission I sometimes attended.

At these gatherings an experience was spoken of which I felt was just what I needed. It was designated by various terms: "The Second Blessing"; "Sanctification"; "Perfect Love"; "Higher Life"; "Cleansing from Inbred Sin"; and by other expressions.

Substantially, the teaching was this: When converted, God graciously forgives all sins committed up to the time when one repents. But the believer is then placed in a lifelong probation, during which he may at any time forfeit his justification and peace with God if he falls into sin from which he does not repent. In order, therefore, to maintain himself in a saved condition, he needs a further work of grace called sanctification. This work has to do with sin the root, as justification had to do with sins the fruit.

The steps leading up to this second blessing are, firstly, conviction as to the need of holiness (just as in the beginning there was conviction of the need of salvation); secondly, a full surrender to God, or the laying of every hope, prospect and possession on the altar of consecration; thirdly, to claim in faith the incoming of the Holy Spirit as a refining fire to burn out all inbred sin, thus destroying in toto every lust and passion, leaving the soul perfect in love and as pure as unfallen Adam.

This wonderful blessing received, great watchfulness is required lest, as the serpent beguiled Eve, he deceive the sanctified soul, and thus introduce again the same kind of an evil principle which called for such drastic action before.

Such was the teaching; and coupled with it were heartfelt testimonies of experiences so remarkable that I could not doubt with genuineness, nor that what others seemed to enjoy was likewise for me if I would fulfil the conditions.

One lady told how for forty years she had been kept from sin in thought, word, and deed. Her heart, she declared, was no longer "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked," but was as holy as the courts of heaven, since the blood of Christ has washed away the last remains inbred sin. Others spoke in a similar way, though their experiences were much briefer. Bad tempers had been rooted out when a full surrender was made.

Evil propensities and unholy appetites had been instantly destroyed when holiness was claimed by faith.

Eagerly I began to seek this precious boon of holiness in the flesh. Earnestly I prayed for this Adamic sinlessness. I asked God to reveal to me every unholy thing, that I might truly surrender all to Him. I gave up friends, pursuits, pleasures--everything I could think of that might hinder the incoming of the Holy Ghost and the consequent blessing. I was a veritable "book-worm," an intense love for literature possessing me from childhood; but in my ignorant desire I put away all books of pleasurable or instructive character, and promised God to read only the Bible and holiness writings if He would only give me "the blessing." I did not, however, obtain what I sought, though I prayed zealously for weeks.

At last, one Saturday night (I was away from home, living with a friend, a member of the "Army"), I determined to go out into the country and wait on God, not returning till I had received the blessing of perfect love. I took a train at eleven o'clock, and went to a lonely station twelve miles from Los Angeles. There I alighted, and, leaving the highway, descended into an empty arroyo, or water-course. Falling on my knees beneath a sycamore tree, I prayed in an agony for hours, beseeching God to show me anything that hindered my reception of the blessing. Various matters of too private and sacred a nature to be here related came to my mind. I struggled against conviction, but finally ended by crying, "Lord, I give up all--everything, every person, every enjoyment, that would hinder my living alone for Thee. Now give me, I pray Thee, the blessing!"

As I look back, I believe I was fully surrendered to the will of God at that moment, so far as I understood it. But my brain and nerves were unstrung by the long midnight vigil and the intense anxiety of previous months, and I fell almost fainting to the ground. Then a holy ecstasy seemed to thrill all my being. This I thought was the coming into my heart of the Comforter. I cried out in confidence, "Lord, I believe Thou dost come in. Thou dost cleanse and purify me from all sin. I claim it now. The work is done. I am sanctified by Thy blood. Thou dost make me holy. I believe; I believe!" I was unspeakably happy. I felt that all my struggles were ended.

With a heart filled with praise, I rose from the ground and began to sing aloud. Consulting my watch, I saw it was about half-past three in the morning. I felt I must hasten to town so as to be in time for the seven o'clock prayer-meeting, there to testify to my experience. Fatigued as I was by being up all night, yet so light was my heart I scarcely noticed the long miles back, but hastened to the city, arriving just as the meeting was beginning, buoyed up by my new-found experience. All were rejoiced as I told what great things I believed God had done for me. Every meeting that day added to my gladness. I was literally intoxicated with joyous emotions.

My troubles were all ended now. The wilderness was past, and I was in Canaan, feeding on the old corn of the land. Nevermore should I be troubled by inward drawings toward sin. My heart was pure. I had reached the desirable state of full sanctification. With no foe within, I could direct all my energies toward vanquishing the enemies without.

This was what I thought. Alas, how little did I know myself; much less the mind of God!

Sunshine and Clouds

For some weeks after the eventful experience before described, I lived in a dreamily-happy state, rejoicing in my fancied sinlessness. One great idea had possession of my mind; and whether at work or in my leisure hours, I thought of little else than the wonderful event which had taken place. But gradually I began to "come back to earth," as it were. I was now employed in a photographic studio, where I associated with people of various tastes and habits, some of whom ridiculed, some tolerated, and others sympathized with, my radical views on things religious.

Night after night I attended the meetings, speaking on the street and indoors, and I soon noticed (and doubtless others did too) that a change came over my "testimonies." Before, I had always held up Christ, and pointed the lost to Him. Now, almost imperceptibly, my own experience became my theme, and I held up myself as a striking example of consecration and holiness! This was the prevailing characteristic of the brief addresses made by most of the "advanced" Christians in our company. The youngest in grace magnified Christ. The "sanctified" magnified themselves. A favorite song will make this more manifest than any words of mine. It is still widely used in Army meetings, and finds a place in their song or hymnbooks. I give only one verse as a specimen:

The people I know don't live holy;
They battle with unconquered sin,
Not daring to consecrate fully,
Or they full salvation would win.
With malice they have constant trouble,
From doubting they long to be free;
With most things about them they grumble;
Praise God, this is not so with ME!

Will the reader believe me when I say that I sang this wretched doggerel without a thought of the sinful pride to which it was giving expression? I considered it my duty to continually direct attention to "my experience of full salvation," as it was called. "If you don't testify to it, you will lose the blessing," was accepted as an axiom among us.

As time went on, I began to be again conscious of inward desires toward evil--of thoughts that were unholy. I was nonplused. Going to a leading teacher for help, he said, "These are but temptations. Temptation is not sin. You only sin if you yield to the evil suggestion." This gave me peace for a time. I found it was the general way of excusing such evident movings of a fallen nature, which was supposed to have been eliminated. But gradually I sank to a lower and lower place, permitting things I would once have shunned; and I even observed that all about me did the same. The first ecstatic experiences seldom lasted long. The ecstasy departed, and the "sanctified" were very little different from their brethren who were supposed to be "only justified." We did not commit overt acts of evil: therefore we were sinless. Lust was not sin unless yielded to: so it was easy to go on testifying that all was right.

I purposely pass briefly over the next four years. In the main they were seasons of ignorantly happy service. I was young in years and in grace. My thoughts of sin, as well as of holiness, were very unformed and imperfect. Therefore it was easy, generally speaking, to think that I was living without the one, and manifesting the other. When doubts assailed, I treated them as temptations of the devil. If I became unmistakably conscious that I had actually sinned, I persuaded myself that at least it was not willful, but rather a mistake of the mind than an intentional error of the heart. Then I went to God in confession, and prayed to be cleansed from secret faults.

When but sixteen years of age I became a cadet; that is, a student for officership in the Salvation Army. During my probation in the Oakland Training Garrison I had more trouble than at any other time. The rigorous discipline and enforced intimate association with young men of so various tastes and tendencies, as also degrees of spiritual experience, was very hard on one of my supersensitive temperament. I saw very little holiness there, and I fear I exhibited much less. In fact, for the last two out of my five months' term I was all at sea, and dared not profess sanctification at all, owing to my low state. I was tormented with the thought that I had backslidden, and might be lost eternally after all my former happy experiences of the Lord's goodness. Twice I slipped out of the building when all were in bed, and made my way to a lonely spot where I spent the night in prayer, beseeching God not to take His Holy Spirit from me, but to again cleanse me fully from all inbred sin. Each time I "claimed it by faith," and was brighter for a few weeks; but I inevitably again fell into doubt and gloom, and was conscious of sinning both in thought and in word, and sometimes in unholy actions, which brought terrible remorse.

Finally, I was commissioned as lieutenant. Again I spent the night in prayer, feeling that I must not go out to teach and lead others unless myself pure and holy. Buoyed up with the thought of being free from the restraint I had been subjected to so long, it was comparatively easy this time to believe that the work of full inward cleansing was indeed consummated, and that I was now, if never before, actually rid of all carnality.

How readily one yields himself to self-deception in a matter of this kind! From this time on I became a more earnest advocate of the second blessing than ever; and I remember that often I prayed God to give my dear mother the blessing He had given me, and to make her as holy as her son had become. And that pious mother had known Christ before I was born, and knew her own heart too well to talk of sinlessness, though living a devoted, Christlike life!

As lieutenant for a year, and then as captain, I thoroughly enjoyed my work, gladly enduring hardship and privation that I fear I would shrink from now; generally confident that I was living out the doctrine of perfect love to God and man, and thereby making my own final salvation more secure. [Note: Perhaps I ought to explain for the benefit of the uninitiated that a "captain" has charge of a corps, or mission. A "lieutenant" assists a "captain."] And yet, as I now look back, what grave failures I can detect--what an unsubdued will--what lightness and frivolity--what lack of subjection to the word of God--what self-satisfaction and complacency! Alas, "man at his best estate is altogether vanity."

I was between eighteen and nineteen years of age when I began to entertain serious doubts as to my actually having attained so high a standard of Christian living as I had professed, and as the Army and other Holiness movements advocated as the only real Christianity. What led to this was of too personal and private a nature to publish; but it resulted in struggle and efforts toward self-crucifixion that brought disappointment and sorrow of a most poignant character; but it showed me beyond a doubt that the doctrine of death to nature was a miserable sophism, and that the carnal mind was still a part of my being.

Nearly eighteen months of an almost constant struggle followed. In vain I searched my heart to see if I had made a full surrender, and tried to give up every known thing that seemed in any sense evil or doubtful. Sometimes, for a month at a time, or even longer, I could persuade myself that at last I had indeed again received the blessing. But invariably a few weeks would bring before me once more that which proved that it was in my particular case all a delusion.

I did not dare open my heart to my assistants in the work, or to the "soldiers" who were under my guidance. To do so I felt would be to lose all influence with them and to be looked upon as a backslider. So, alone and in secret, I fought my battles and never went into a holiness meeting without persuading myself that now at least, I was fully surrendered and therefore must have the blessing of sanctification. Sometimes I called it entire consecration and felt easier. It did not seem to be claiming too much. I had no conception at the time of the hypocrisy of all this.

What made my distress more poignant was the knowledge that I was not the only sufferer. Another, one very dear to me, shared my doubts and anxieties from the same cause. For that other it eventually meant utter shipwreck of the faith; and one of the loveliest souls I ever knew was lost in the mazes of spiritualism. God grant it may not be forever, but that mercy may be found of the Lord in that day!

And now I began to see what a string of derelicts this holiness teaching left in its train. I could count scores of persons who had gone into utter infidelity because of it. They always gave the same reason: "I tried it all. I found it a failure. So I concluded the Bible teaching was all a delusion, and religion was a mere matter of the emotions." Many more (and I knew several such intimately) lapsed into insanity after floundering in the morass of this emotional religion for years--and people said that studying the Bible had driven them crazy. How little they knew that it was lack of Bible knowledge that was accountable for their wretched mental state--an absolutely unscriptural use of isolated passages of Scripture!

At last I became so troubled I could not go on with my work. I concluded to resign from the Salvation Army, and did so, but was persuaded by the colonel (note: answering to a bishop in some other denominations.) to wait six months ere the resignation took effect. At his suggestion I gave up corps work and went out on a special tour--where I did not need to touch the holiness question. But I preached to others many times when I was tormented by the thought that I might myself be finally lost, because, "without holiness no man shall see the Lord"; and, try as I would, I could not be sure I possessed it. I talked with any who seemed to me to really have the blessing I craved; but there were very few who, upon an intimate acquaintanceship, seemed genuine. I observed that the general state of "sanctified" people was as low, if not often lower, than that of those whom they contemptuously described as "only justified."

Finally, I could bear it no longer, so asked to be relieved from all active service, and at my own request was sent to the Beulah Home of Rest, near Oakland.

It was certainly time; for five years' active work, with only two brief furloughs, had left me almost a nervous wreck, worn out in body and most acutely distressed in mind.

The language of my troubled soul, after all those years of preaching to others, was, "Oh that I knew where I might find Him!" Finding Him not, I saw only the blackness of despair before me; but yet I knew too well His love and care to be completely cast down.

The Struggle Ended

I had now been for over five years laboring in the organization with which I had linked myself, and ever seeking to be certain that I had attained a sinless state. In some twelve different towns and cities I had served, as I thought, faithfully, endeavoring to reach the lost, and to make out of them staunch Salvationists when converted. Many happy experiences had been mine, coupled, however, with some most gloomy disappointments, both as to myself and others. Very few of our "converts" stood. "Backsliders" often outnumbered by far our "soldiers." The ex-Salvation Army was many times larger than the original organization.

One great reason for this I was blind to for a long time. But at last it began to be clear to me that the holiness doctrine had a most baneful influence upon the movement. People who professed conversion (whether real or not the day will declare) struggled for months, even years, to reach a state of sinlessness which never was reached; and at last they gave up in despair and sank back in many instances to the dead level of the world around them.

I saw that it was the same with all the holiness denominations, and the various "Bands," "Missions," and other movements, that were continually breaking off from them. The standard set was the unattainable. The result was, sooner or later, utter discouragement, cunningly-concealed hypocrisy, or an unconscious lowering of the standard to suit the experience reached. For myself, I had been ensnared by that last expedient for a long time. How much of the second there was I do not dare to say. But eventually I fell a victim to the first. And I can now see that it was a mercy I did so.

When I went to the Home of Rest, I had not yet fully given up seeking for perfection in the flesh. I really expected great things from the six months' furlough granted me, in order to "find myself," as it were.

Closely allied to the Home were other institutions where holiness and faith-healing were largely dwelt upon. I felt sure that in so hallowed an atmosphere great things would be accomplished.

In the rest home I found about fourteen officers, broken in health, seeking recuperation. I watched the ways and conversation of all most carefully, intending to confide in those who gave the best evidence of entire sanctification. There were some choice souls among them, and some arrogant hypocrites. But holiness in the absolute sense I saw in none. Some were very godly and devoted. Their conscientiousness I could not doubt. But those who talked the loudest were plainly the least spiritual. They seldom read their Bibles, they rarely conversed together of Christ. An air of carelessness pervaded the whole place. Three sisters, most devoted women, were apparently more godly than any others; but two of them admitted to me that they were not sure about being perfectly holy. The other one was non-committal, though seeking to help me. Some were positively quarrelsome and boorish, and this I could not reconcile with their profession of freedom from inbred sin. I attended the meetings held by the other workers I have mentioned. There the best of them did not teach sinless perfection; while the manifestly carnal gloried in their experience of perfect love! Sick people testified to being healed by faith, and sinning people declared they had the blessing of holiness! I was not helped, but hindered, by the inconsistency of it all.

At last I found myself becoming cold and cynical. Doubts as to everything assailed me like a legion of demons, and I became almost afraid to let my mind dwell on these things. For refuge I turned to secular literature, and sent for my books, which some years before I had foresworn on condition that God would give me the "second blessing." How little I realized the Jacob-spirit in all this! God seemed to have failed; so I took up my books once more, and tried to find solace in the beauties of essays and poetry, or the problems of history and science. I did not dare to confess to myself that I was literally an agnostic; yet for a month at least I could only answer, "I do not know" to every question based on divine revelation.

This was the legitimate result of the teaching I had been under. I reasoned that the Bible promised entire relief from indwelling sin to all who were wholly surrendered to the will of God. That I had thus surrendered seemed to me certain. Why then had I not been fully delivered from the carnal mind? It seemed to me that I had met every condition, and that God, on His part, had failed to perform what He had promised. I know it is wretched to write all this: but I see no other way to help others who are in the same state that I was in for that awful month.

Deliverance came at last in a most unexpected way. A lassie-lieutenant, a woman some ten years my senior in age, was brought to the Home from Rock Springs, Wyoming, supposedly dying of consumption. From the first my heart went out to her in deep sympathy. To me she was a martyr, laying down her life for a needy world. I was much in her company, observed her closely, and finally came to the conclusion that she was the only wholly sanctified person in that place.

Imagine my surprise when, a few weeks after her arrival, she, with a companion, came to me one evening and begged me to read to her; remarking, "I hear you are always occupied with the things of the Lord, and I need your help." I, the one to help her! I was dumbfounded, knowing so well the plague of my own heart, and being fully assured as to her perfection in holiness. At the very moment they entered my room I was reading Byron's Childe Harold. And I was supposed to be entirely devoted to the things of God! It struck me as weird and fantastic, rather than as a solemn farce--all this comparing ourselves with ourselves, only to be deluded every time.

I hastily thrust the book to one side, and wondered what to choose to read aloud. In God's providence a pamphlet caught my attention which my mother had given me some years before, but which I had dreaded to read lest it might upset me; so afraid had I been of anything that did not bear the Army or Holiness stamp. Moved by a sudden impulse, I drew it forth and said, "I'll read this. It is not in accordance with our teaching; but it may be interesting anyway."

I read page after page, paying little attention, only hoping to soothe and quiet this dying woman. In it the lost condition of all men by nature was emphasized. Redemption in Christ through His death was explained. Then there was much as to the believer's two natures, and his eternal security, which to me seemed both ridiculous and absurd. The latter part was occupied with prophecy. Upon that we did not enter. I was startled after going over the first half of the book when Lieut. J--exclaimed, "O Captain, do you think that can possibly be true? If I could only believe that, I could die in peace!"

Astonished beyond measure, I asked, "What! do you mean to say you could not die in peace as you are? You are justified and sanctified; you have an experience I have sought in vain for years; and are you troubled about dying?" "I am miserable," she replied, "and you mustn't say I am sanctified. I cannot get it. I have struggled for years, but I have not reached it yet. This is why I wanted to speak to you, for I felt so sure you had it and could help me!"

We looked at each other in amazement; and as the pathos and yet ludicrousness of it all burst upon us, I laughed deliriously, while she wept hysterically. Then I remember exclaiming, "Whatever is the matter with us all? No one on earth denies himself more for Christ's sake than we. We suffer, and starve, and wear ourselves out in the endeavor to do the will of God; yet after all we have no lasting peace. We are happy at times; we enjoy our meetings; but we are never certain as to what the end will be."

"Do you think," she asked, "that it is because we depend upon our own efforts too much? Can it be that we trust Christ to save us, but we think we have to keep saved by our own faithfulness--?"

"But," I broke in, "to think anything else would open the door to all kinds of sin!"

And so we talked till, wearied out, she arose to go, but asked if she and others might return the next evening to read and talk of these things we had gone over--a permission which was readily granted.

For both Lieut. J--and myself that evening's reading and exchange of confidences proved the beginning of our deliverance. We had frankly owned to one another, and to the third party present, that we were not sanctified. We now began to search the Scriptures earnestly for light and help. I threw all secular books to one side, determined to let nothing hinder the careful, prayerful study of the word of God. Little by little, the light began to dawn. We saw that we had been looking within for holiness, instead of without. We realized that the same grace that had saved us at first alone could carry us on. Dimly we apprehended that all for us must be in Christ, or we were without a ray of hope.

Many questions perplexed and troubled us. Much that we had believed we soon saw to be utterly opposed to the word of God. Much more we could not understand, so completely warped had our minds become through the training of years. In my perplexity I sought out a teacher of the Word who, I understood, was in fellowship with the writer of the pamphlet I have referred to above. I heard him with profit on two occasions, but still was in measure bewildered, though I began to feel solid ground beneath my feet once more. The great truth was getting a grip of me that holiness, perfect love, sanctification, and every other blessing, were mine in Christ from the moment I had believed, and mine forevermore, all because of pure grace. I had been looking at the wrong man--all was in another Man, and in that Man for me! But it took weeks to see this.

A booklet entitled Safety, Certainty, and Enjoyment proved helpful to both of us, and was a source of cheer. Other tracts were given me, and read with earnest purpose, looking up every reference, searching context and other passages of like, or apparently opposite, character, while daily we cried to God for the knowledge of His truth. Miss J--saw it ere I did. The light came when she realized that she was eternally linked with Christ as Head, and had eternal life in Him as the Vine, in her as the branch. Her joy knew no bounds, and she actually improved in health from that hour, and lived for six years after; finally going to be with the Lord, worn out in seeking to lead others to Christ. Many will be disappointed to know that she maintained her connection with the Army to the last. She had a mistaken (I believe) notion that she should remain where she was, and declare the truth she had learned. But ere she died she repented of this. Her last words to a brother (A.B.S.) and me, who were with her very near the end, were: "I have everything in Christ--of that I am sure. But I wish I had been more faithful as to the truth I learned about the Body--the Church. I was misled by zeal which I thought was of God, and it is too late to be faithful now!"

Four days after the truth burst upon her soul in that Home of Rest, I, too, had every doubt and fear removed, and found my all in Christ. To go on where I was, I could not. Within a week I was outside of the only human system I had ever been in as a Christian, and for many years since I have known no head but Christ, no body but the Church which He purchased with His own blood. They have been happy years; and as I look back over all the way the Lord has led me, I can but praise Him for the matchless grace that gave me to see that perfect holiness and perfect love were to be found, not in me, but in Christ Jesus alone.

And I have been learning all along my pilgrim journey that the more my heart is taken up with Christ, the more do I enjoy practical deliverance from sin's power, and the more do I realize what it is to have the love of God shed abroad in that heart by the Holy Spirit given to me, as the Earnest of the glory to come. I have found liberty and joy since being freed from bondage that I never thought it possible for a soul to know on earth, while I have a confidence in presenting this precious truth for the acceptance of others that contrasts with the uncertainty of the past.

To read part II, examining the doctrine of true holiness, click here: http://puregospeltruth.com/holinesstwo.htm

S
sermonindex

The great truth was getting a grip of me that holiness, perfect love, sanctification, and every other blessing, were mine in Christ from the moment I had believed, and mine forevermore, [b]all because of pure grace[/b]. I had been looking at the wrong man--all was in another Man, and in that Man for me!

H
hmmhmm

It seem to me, not only in this debate, that people in their earnest and sincere attempt to have the sound and right doctrine, they either go off left or right.

there is a balance, i mean you cant live a unholy life and say "chirst is my holiness" and yet live in sin? to me it is like this, if you profess you have the God of the universe inside you dwelling by the Holy Spirit... you will be holy, he will make you holy.

we will be as holy as as much of Christ we have, how can we know him and not be holy?

can we be perfect? no i dont think so, do we have to sin? no i dont think so. Scripture says he is able to keep us from falling, scripture says he is able to save to the uttermost. Can we be perfect in that sense we never sin again? i dont know, i am not there by a long shot. Also i think we very much mix up the things justification and sanctification.

but in the attempt of adjusting someone who gone off to the left off sound doctrine we grab a rope and swing over to the other side completely...

Deu 17:19 He must always keep this copy of the law with him and read it daily as long as he lives. That way he will learn to fear the LORD his God by obeying all the terms of this law.
Deu 17:20 This regular reading will prevent him from becoming proud and acting as if he is above his fellow citizens. It will also prevent him from turning away from these commands in the smallest way. This will ensure that he and his descendants will reign for many generations in Israel.

NLT

S
sermonindex

It seem to me, not only in this debate, that people in their earnest and sincere attempt to have the sound and right doctrine, they either go off left or right.

there is a balance, i mean you cant live a unholy life and say "chirst is my holiness" and yet live in sin? to me it is like this, if you profess you have the God of the universe inside you dwelling by the Holy Spirit... you will be holy, he will make you holy.

I agree hmmhmm, but as the article says, if you rely on yourself for that holiness then you will fail. It's only when you realise that you can do all things [i]through Christ[/i] and through Him alone that you start to see fruit.

This article and testimony spoke so true to me, and came at such a perfect time. I have been trying to rely on myself for victory over sin and peace in the faith, but it's only when you come to Christ and rely on Him for these things, and claim them through Him that they are attainable. Reliance on Christ is paramount in the Christian walk.

I did a Biblegateway.com search for the words 'through Christ' and in the NT letters there were literally tens of verses that spoke of different things that were available through Christ only. Romans 5, 1 Corinthians 15:57, 2 Corinthians 3:4, Galatians 3:26, Philippians 4:13. Then there's John 1:7, John 10:9...

How comforting it is to know that Christ our Saviour has done it all for us. If it was up to me to make myself deserve God's love, then I may as well be left to die now, because it will never happen.

But Christ is our Saviour. Hallelujah!

John 4:16 - 'I am the way and the truth and the life. [b]No one[/b] comes to the Father [b]except through me[/b].'

H
hmmhmm

also do a search "in Christ" and you will find a blessed study..i did this recently, very refreshing and encouraging to see what we have and are in HIM.

I just want to keep people in the middle road, balance.... thats all....

God bless you all

Christian

B
BlazedbyGod


hmmhmm wrote:
[b]can we be perfect? no i dont think so,[/b] do we have to sin? no i dont think so. Scripture says he is able to keep us from falling, scripture says he is able to save to the uttermost. Can we be perfect in that sense we never sin again? i dont know, i am not there by a long shot. Also i think we very much mix up the things justification and sanctification.

Gen 6:9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [b]and perfect[/b] in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and [b]be thou perfect.[/b]

Deut 18:13 Thou shalt be [b]perfect[/b] with the LORD thy God.

1 Kings 8:61Let your heart therefore be [b]perfect[/b] with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

1 Kings 15:14 But the high places were not removed: nevertheless [b]Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD ALL his days.[/b]

Matt 5:48 [b]Be ye therefore perfect,[/b] EVEN AS [b]your Father which is in heaven is perfect[/b]

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that [b]IS perfect shall be as his master[/b]

Just thought I would list a few. In Matt 5:48 we are told by Jesus to be the same level of perfection as our Father which is in heaven is perfect-WOW.........such a Blessing

M
murrcolr

This consecration consists in a perfect putting off of your own will, your disposition, temper, desires, likes and dislikes, and a perfect putting on of Christ's will, Christ's disposition, temper, desires, likes and dislikes. In short, perfect consecration is a putting off self and a putting on Christ; a giving up your own will in all things and receiving the will of Jesus instead.

This may seem well-nigh impossible and very disagreeable to your unsanctified heart; but if you mean business for eternity, and will intelligently and unflinchingly look at this strait gate through which so few enter, and tell the Lord that you want to go through that way, though it cost you your life, the Holy Spirit will soon show you that it is not only possible, but easy and delightful thus to yield yourself to God.

When Paul wrote to the church in Thessalonica, he praised them for being "ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia," and added, "in every place your faith to Godward is spread abroad" (I Thess. i. 7, 8). That was the best believing church in all Europe, and so real and
sturdy was their faith that they could endure much persecution, as we see from chaps. i. 6, ii. 14, and iii. 2-5; so that Paul says, "We were comforted over you, in all our affliction and distress by your faith" (iii. 7). Strong faith that, but it was not perfect, for Paul adds, "Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith" (iii.10). And because of their imperfect faith they were not sanctified; so we find the Apostle praying, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly" (v. 23).

All who are born of God and have the witness of His Spirit to their justification know full well that it was not through any good works of their own, nor by growing into it, that they were
saved, but it was "by grace through faith" (Eph. ii. 8). But very many of these dear people seem to think that we are to grow into sanctification, or are to get it by our own works.

Matt 19 v 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."


With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

C
crsschk

[u][b]Perfect[/b][/u]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and [b]perfect[/b] in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou [b]perfect[/b].

Eze 28:15 Thou wast [b]perfect[/b] in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

[b]H8549[/b]

תּמים

tâmîym

[i]taw-meem'[/i]

From H8552; [i]entire[/i] (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) [i]integrity, truth:[/i] - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Deu 25:15 But thou shalt have a [b]perfect[/b] and just weight, a [b]perfect[/b] and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

2Ki 20:3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a [b]perfect[/b] heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.


[b]H8003[/b]

שׁלם

shâlêm

[i]shaw-lame'[/i]

From H7999; [i]complete[/i] (literally or figuratively); especially [i]friendly[/i]. ([i]shalem[/i] used by mistake for a name.): - full, just, made ready, peaceable, perfect (-ed), quiet, Shalem [by mistake for a name], whole.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is [b]perfect[/b], and blind as the LORD'S servant?

[b]H7999[/b]

שׁלם

shâlam

[i]shaw-lam'[/i]

A primitive root; to [i]be safe[/i] (in mind, body or estate); figuratively to [i]be[/i] (causatively [i]make[/i]) [i]completed[/i]; by implication to [i]be friendly[/i]; by extension to reciprocate (in various applications): - make amends, (make an) end, finish, full, give again, make good, (re-) pay (again), (make) (to) (be at) peace (-able), that is perfect, perform, (make) prosper (-ous), recompense, render, requite, make restitution, restore, reward, X surely.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the [b]perfect[/b] day.

[b]H3559[/b]

כּוּן

kûn

[i]koon[/i]

A primitive root; properly to [i]be erect[/i] (that is, stand perpendicular);. hence (causatively) to [i]set up[/i], in a great variety of applications, whether literal ([i]establish, fix, prepare, apply[/i]), or figurative ([i]appoint, render sure, proper or prosperous[/i]): - certain (-ty), confirm, direct, faithfulness, fashion, fasten, firm, be fitted, be fixed, frame, be meet, ordain, order, perfect, (make) preparation, prepare (self), provide, make provision, (be, make) ready, right, set (aright, fast, forth), be stable, (e-) stablish, stand, tarry, X very deed.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a [b]perfect[/b] and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?


Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am [b]perfect[/b], it shall also prove me perverse.


[b]H8535[/b]

תּם

tâm

[i]tawm[/i]

From H8552; [i]complete[/i]; usually (morally) [i]pious[/i]; specifically [i]gentle, dear:[/i] - coupled together, perfect, plain, undefiled, upright.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Eze 16:14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was [b]perfect[/b] through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and [b]perfect[/b] in beauty.


[b]H3632[/b]

כּליל

kâlîyl

[i]kaw-leel'[/i]

From H3634; [i]complete;[/i] as noun, the [i]whole[/i] (specifically a sacrifice [i]entirely consumed[/i]); as adverb [i]fully[/i]: - all, every whit, flame, perfect (-ion), utterly, whole burnt offering (sacrifice), wholly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore [b]perfect[/b], even as your Father which is in heaven is [b]perfect[/b].

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be [b]perfect[/b], go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven:

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and [b]perfect[/b], will of God.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are [b]perfect[/b]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1Co 13:10 But when that which is [b]perfect[/b] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a [b]perfect[/b] man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be [b]perfect[/b], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man [b]perfect[/b] in Christ Jesus:

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand [b]perfect[/b] and complete in all the will of God.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more [b]perfect[/b] tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Jas 1:4 But let patience have her [b]perfect[/b] work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every [b]perfect[/b] gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the [b]perfect[/b] law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a [b]perfect[/b] man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but [b]perfect[/b] love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

[b]G5046[/b]

τέλειος

teleios

[i]tel'-i-os[/i]

From G5056; [i]complete[/i] (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) [i]completeness[/i]: - of full age, man, perfect.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is [b]perfect[/b] shall be as his master.

2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be [b]perfect[/b], be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

1Th 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might [b]perfect[/b] that which is lacking in your faith?

Heb 13:21 Make you [b]perfect[/b] in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you [b]perfect[/b], stablish, strengthen, settle you.


[b]G2675[/b]

καταρτίζω

katartizō

[i]kat-ar-tid'-zo[/i]

From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to [i]complete thoroughly[/i], that is, [i]repair[/i] (literally or figuratively) or [i]adjust[/i]: - fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made [b]perfect[/b] in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made [b]perfect[/b] in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already [b]perfect[/b]: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation [b]perfect[/b] through sufferings.

Heb 5:9 And being made [b]perfect[/b], he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing [b]perfect[/b], but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service [b]perfect[/b], as pertaining to the conscience;

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto [b]perfect[/b].

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made [b]perfect[/b].

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made [b]perfect[/b],

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made [b]perfect[/b]?

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made [b]perfect[/b], that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


[b]G5048[/b]

τελειόω

teleioō

[i]tel-i-o'-o[/i]

From G5046; to [i]complete[/i], that is, (literally) [i]accomplish[/i], or (figuratively) [i]consummate[/i] (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had [b]perfect[/b] understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

[b]G199[/b]

ἀκριβῶς

akribōs

[i]ak-ree-boce'[/i]

Adverb from the same as [b]G196[/b]; [i]exactly[/i]: - circumspectly, diligently, perfect (-ly).

[b]G196[/b]

ἀκριβέστατος

akribestatos

[i]ak-ree-bes'-ta-tos[/i]

Superlative of ἀκριβης akribēs (a derivative of the same as [b]G206[/b]); [i]most exact[/i]: - most straitest.

[b]G206[/b]

ἄκρον

akron

[i]ak'-ron[/i]

Neuter of an adjective probably akin to the base of [b]G188[/b]; the [i]extremity[/i]: - one end . . . other, tip, top, uttermost part.


[b]G188[/b]

ἀκμήν

akmēn

[i]ak-mane'[/i]

Accusative case of a noun ([i]“acme”[/i]) akin to ἀκή akē (a [i]point[/i]) and meaning the same; adverbially [i]just[/i] now, that is, [i]still[/i]: - yet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made [b]perfect[/b] by the flesh?

[b]G2005[/b]

ἐπιτελέω

epiteleō

[i]ep-ee-tel-eh'-o[/i]

From [b]G1909[/b] and [b]G5055[/b]; to [i]fulfill further[/i] (or [i]completely[/i]), that is, [i]execute[/i]; by implication to [i]terminate, undergo[/i]: - accomplish, do, finish, (make) (perfect), perform (X -ance).

[b]G1909[/b]

ἐπί

epi

[i]ep-ee'[/i]

A primary preposition properly meaning [i]superimposition[/i] (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of [i]distribution[/i] [with the genitive case], that is, [i]over, upon[/i], etc.; of [i]rest[/i] (with the dative case) [i]at, on[/i], etc.; of [i]direction[/i] (with the accusative case) [i]towards, upon[/i], etc.: - about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, [where-]) fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-) on (behalf of) over, (by, for) the space of, through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, [i]at, upon,[/i] etc. (literally or figuratively).

[b]G5055[/b]

τελέω

teleō

[i]tel-eh'-o[/i]

From [b]G5056[/b]; to [i]end[/i], that is, [i]complete, execute, conclude, discharge[/i] (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

[b]G5056[/b]

τέλος

telos

[i]tel'-os[/i]

From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to [i]set out[/i] for a definite point or [i]goal[/i]); properly the point aimed at as a [i]limit[/i], that is, (by implication) the [i]conclusion[/i] of an act or state ([i]termination[/i] [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], [i]result[/i] [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], [i]purpose[/i]); specifically an [i]impost[/i] or [i]levy[/i] (as [i]paid[/i]): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be [b]perfect[/b], throughly furnished unto all good works.


[b]G739[/b]

ἄρτιος

artios

[i]ar'-tee-os[/i]

From [b]G737[/b]; [i]fresh[/i], that is, (by implication) [i]complete:[/i] - perfect.

[b]G737[/b]

ἄρτι

arti

[i]ar'-tee[/i]

Adverb from a derivative of [b]G142[/b] (compare [b]G740[/b]) through the idea of [i]suspension[/i]; just [i]now[/i]: - this day (hour), hence [-forth], here [-after], hither [-to], (even) now, (this) present.

[b]G142[/b]

αἴρω

airō

[i]ah'ee-ro[/i]

A primary verb; to [i]lift[/i]; by implication to [i]take up[/i] or [i]away[/i]; figuratively to [i]raise[/i] (the voice), [i]keep in suspense[/i] (the mind); specifically to [i]sail[/i] away (that is, [i]weigh anchor[/i]); by Hebraism (compare [[b]H5375[/b]]) to [i]expiate[/i] sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).


[b]H5375[/b]

נסה נשׂא

nâśâ' nâsâh

[i]naw-saw', naw-saw'[/i]

A primitive root; to [i]lift[/i], in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, absolutely and relatively: - accept, advance, arise, (able to, [armour], suffer to) bear (-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honourable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works [b]perfect[/b] before God.

[b]G4137[/b]

πληρόω

plēroō

[i]play-ro'-o[/i]

From [b]G4134[/b]; to [i]make replete[/i], that is, (literally) to [i]cram[/i] (a net), [i]level[/i] up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to [i]furnish[/i] (or [i]imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute[/i] (an office), [i]finish[/i] (a period or task), [i]verify[/i] (or [i]coincide[/i] with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

[b]G4134[/b]

πλήρης

plērēs

[i]play'-race[/i]

From [b]G4130[/b]; [i]replete[/i], or [i]covered[/i] over; by analogy [i]complete:[/i] - full.

[b]G4130[/b]

πλήθω

plēthō

[i]play'-tho, pleh'-o,[/i]

A prolonged form of a primary word πλέω pleō (which appears only as an alternate in certain tenses and in the reduplicated form of πίμπλημι pimplēmi to [i]“fill”[/i] (literally or figuratively [[i]imbue, influence, supply[/i]]); specifically to [i]fulfil[/i] (time): - accomplish, full (. . . come), furnish.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This is nowhere exhaustive. Remarkable, I had no idea there were so many descriptive derivatives. There is still yet more.

[i]Edit: Added in the remaining New Testament usages where they were keyed by a Strong's number. At some later point may go back and add in the remaining Old Testament notations.[/i]

P
psalm1

The problem with holiness is, the church tries to make it one dimensional.
Some take this position or that,thinking their right and the other is wrong.
So many facets to one truth.
Holiness....The degree of my holy progress?
Holiness....the degree of my mortification?
Do I become holy,or have I been made holy?
If I sin am I still holy?
Will I ever stop committing sin?
Am i holy because of my lack of sin?
Is Holiness possible for a believer?

Like the article says the holiness crowd is in delusion. No one is sinless,therefore we must have His holiness .
We have the Holy One living inside us.
WE have his holiness
Holiness we produce is prideful filthy rags.
Religious people have their "holy" lives and are quick to let you know how much more holier they are than you.
"The letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life"
"Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh"


The issue of holiness is settled through Jesus

"He was tempted in all things but remained sinless"

The rub in our walk is not holiness but walking in Love,joy ,freedom and victory.

Do you ever "get into the spirit"?
I do through worship. It is our avenue to walking with God.
To be immersed and saturated with God every day.

Through the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and being continually filled, our walk is not a duty, or a contest......It is an adventure!


David

H
hmmhmm

I listened to Ravenhill yesterday night, he said "are you suggesting satan so corrupted the human race it is impossible for God to fully restore it?"

or something alike that.... and he does have a point, seem sometimes the only thing God cant do, is making a human stop sinning, And i think of that wesley quote....if you rely on stop sinning at death, then you make death your savior and not Christ....

M
murrcolr

John Wesley, Church of England. Founder of the Holy Club at Oxford University in the early 1730s; preached throughout the United Kingdom for about forty years and was the instigator of what is now called the Great Awakening. Thousands upon thousands came to the Lord through his ministry. He also went to the USA and had tremendous impact there. He taught Entire Sanctification as a definite second work of grace

George Whitefield, Church of England. Also a member of the Holy Club at Oxford University. He taught Wesley open-air preaching. At Bristol up to 40,000 people gathered including many coal miners. Thousands were saved. Like Wesley, he toured the UK with tremendous results. When he came to London he preached in the great parks ending in Hyde Park with over 80,000 people attending. Again thousands were saved. Once when preaching in Yorkshire two people were struck dead in the crowd. Great fear came on the people and again many came to the Lord. He had great impact too in the USA, particularly in Northampton where Jonathan Edwards had prepared the ground.

Rev. William Haslam, Church of England, Cornwall. He was saved in his pulpit while he was preaching a sermon! Billy Bray (see below) prayed for him and after he received Full Salvation he and Billy Bray, turned Cornwall and Devon upside down. While preaching to a crowd, the power of God moved and, in his own words, ‘It was like a cannon shot mowing down eight people deep going through the crowd.”. His church at Baldhu was the centre of Revival. It was built to take 600 people; 1600 packed inside. He then went to Norfolk and the Lord used him to start a Revival there.

Billy Bray, Primitive Methodist, and Bryanite (Bible Christians). Billy had an amazing conversion from being a complete drunkard. He was a Cornish tin miner and was saved and sanctified in 1823. He became a mighty preacher and was well known for his joy and was called the Glory Man.

Hudson Taylor, Founder of China Inland Mission. He was saved and Sanctified as a young man and called as a missionary to China. He trained up many Chinese evangelists who, despite communism, passed on the great truths of Christianity and it is now estimated that there are between fifty and eighty millions of Chinese Christians today due to this holy man’s life and influence.

Paget Wilkes, Founder of the Japan Evangelistic Band. The Evangelistic Band, unconnected with any denomination, reached thousands for the Lord, and trained up hundreds of Sanctified Evangelists. He founded a Bible School and, as at the conventions held throughout Japan (and in Swanwick, England) Scriptural Holiness was taught and souls brought into the real experience of Full Salvation. His ministry also affected China and in his latter years America and Canada. His classic book, called sanctification, was a best seller.

Smith Wigglesworth, Boland Street Mission, Bradford, England. He was Sanctified and aptised in the Holy Spirit within a few weeks in 1907 (the latter at Sunderland, England). He was mightily used in many parts of the world, starting Revivals, healing the sick, delivering
people from demons, and raising the dead. In one incident in a Norwegian town, the town hall was packed and there were thousands outside. Every person who needed healing was healed and veryone was saved! There were incidents when he entered trains or buses when everyone in the vehicle would come under conviction of sin and was saved

Jeremiah Lanphier, Dutch Reform Church worker. Lanphier’s dedication to the work of God came only after a struggle and total surrender to God. He was prompted to hand out leaflets for a weekly hours’ lunchtime prayer meeting which then became daily. Then came the first Stock Exchange crash in October 1857. Approximately three weeks after commencing, the prayer meeting grew to three thousand and then to ten thousand meeting every day. Within two months there were at least twenty other prayer meetings in New York with one hundred thousand at prayer. It then spread to a great part of the USA and an estimated one million were soundly saved, all from one man who was Entirely Sanctified.

Guy Bevington, Methodist Holiness Evangelist. A true evangelist if ever there was one! His work was mainly confined to Ohio and Kentucky in the USA. He used to fast and pray for a village or a small town for about a week or more, and then when God released him, enter the town and preach. Down would come the Holy Spirit and hundreds would get saved and healed, believers would be sanctified and baptised in the Holy Spirit. Again he was a fully Sanctified saint of God and he taught and preached Full Salvation.

Samuel L Brengle, Salvation Army. An early Salvation Army Commissioner mightily used by God. Sanctified and Baptised in the Holy Spirit in 1885. He wrote many books on Entire sanctification; his most famous ‘Helps to Holiness’ being a classic on this subject.

Charles Finney. A man mightily used by God. While a pastor in New York he became convinced through studying the Bible that ‘an altogether higher and more stable form of Christian life was attainable’ (Sanctification – PK). He experienced and preached the doctrine of Entire Sanctification. A series of Lectures on Revivals given in New York were afterwards published Called, Finney’s Lectures on Revival. Thousands upon thousands of copies were produced worldwide and were instrumental in promoting Revivals in England, Scotland, Wales, Canada, and Nova scotia. After forty years of preaching and powerfully praying it was estimated that over two hundred and fifty thousand people were converted as a result of his ministry

John G Govan, Founder of The Faith Mission, Scotland.
In 1884 John Govan was Sanctified wholly and within two years, after successful missions in the Glasgow suburbs, he founded The Faith Mission and started training others to go out and evangelise. He insisted that they be saved, and Sanctified before letting them go into the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. The result was that the ‘pilgrims’ through prayer and
preaching, started, or were involved with, many Revivals, the most famous of which is the Lewis Revival of 1949-1952. This organisation has started more Revivals in the British Isles than all other organisations put together, all from one man Sanctified and Baptised in the Holy
Spirit. His testimony is truly inspiring and the results amazing.

Rev. Duncan Campbell, The Faith Mission Scotland.
One of the best known evangelists of The Faith Mission. He started the Mid-Argyll Revival in Scotland and also the Revival in the Isle of Skye. He was involved with the Isles of Lewis and Harris Revivals and also the Revival of North Uist. He was Sanctified in the battlefield in the First World War and imediately afterwards seven Canadian soldiers were gloriously saved at the casualty clearing station when the Holy Spirit poured out of him and brought conviction to those present without him speaking a word in English!

James McQuilkin, Calvinist Presbyterian, Northern Ireland. He was saved and Sanctified in 1857 and started a prayer meeting with some friends and fervently prayed for Revival. Their prayers were answered and at the end of 1858 there were fifty young men in the meeting. In 1859 the Revival broke out in Kells and swept over the whole of Northern Ireland and in that year one hundred thousand souls were swept into the Kingdom out of a population of one million! Hallelujah!

“Were Wesley, Whitefield, Finney, Hudson Taylor special editions of ministers? Never!

If I read the Book of Acts aright, they were just the norm.”

‘Why Revival Tarries’ by Leonard Ravenhill

M
murrcolr

“Mr Paget Wilkes writes with some amusement of those ‘who talk about the Japan Evangelistic
Band teachings (i.e. Holiness and the blessing of Full Salvation – PK) as though it were some
new kind of truth’! It has been the message of saints of God down the centuries and was the
foundation of the glorious Revivals of pure religion (Christianity) under the original Quakers, the Methodists and the Salvation Army, and wherever it is truly known and experienced, it is the bringer-in of Revival today”

Why Has This Truth Been Lost to Today’s Church

The majority of the Sanctified saints who experienced Full Salvation have passed on to glory.

The emergence of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement majored on the ‘gifts’ and ‘power’ rather than the crucified life, repentance and holiness.

The old timers of 50 years or more preached on the severity and judgement of God, including the teaching of the existence of hell. This brought the fear of the Lord, an awareness of their lost condition and a solemn reverence to the Believer, as well as their rejoicing in the love and goodness of God. Today, too frequently, only the love of God is preached, sometimes Fostering, a casual approach to a holy God – resulting often in the ‘candy-coated’ and ‘easy-believism’ Gospel.

In general there is no teaching on this truth of Entire Sanctification or the Clean Heart.

“My people perish for lack of knowledge.” Hosea 4:6

“We must first hear so that we may know what is to be believed. A measure of knowledge is essential to faith, hence the importance of acquiring knowledge” C. H. Spurgeon.

This truth MUST return to today’s church so that it truly and experientially will be “a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing: but that it should be holy and without blemish….” Ephesians 5:27

glorifying the Lord – the spotless, pure bride having made herself ready for Jesus the Bridegroom see Revelation 19:7

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


I wonder if I could ask something here.


Probably everyone reading here is familiar with Romans 3:23, and I can imagine that it might seem overly simplisitic to even mention it in the context of this discussion.


But, if I could ask this here, have we really thought about what this verse is saying to us?


Just how far is it to fall short of God's glory?

Have we missed it by a couple of feet?

A few inches?

John the Apostle writes:


"and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."


Some thoughts,

Chris

M
murrcolr

May I, with the words of Sidlow Baxter, challenge you once more, as he urges us, to interrogate ourselves?

I am truly converted – but am I truly consecrated?

I now possess Christ – but do I let him really possess me?

I am spiritually regenerated – but am I morally renewed?

I have the new life – but do I experience the “life more abundant”?

I am into “the blessing of the Gospel” – but do I have “the fullness of the blessing”? (Romans 15:29)

I am out of Egypt – but am I living in Canaan?

I am “risen with Christ”, (Ephesians 2:6.) – but am I “reigning with Christ”? (Romans 5:17)

I know Him as my imputed righteousness – but do I know Him as my imparted righteousness?

I have “peace with God” – but do I have peace from God filling my soul?

If the answer to these questions is NO – let it spur you on, with all your heart, to seek and search for the Clean Heart set free from the power of sin!

J
jimp

hi, why do we have to go back before martin luther had this same experience and came up with the same conclusion.we are saved...sanctified... glorified by grace thru faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.it is all in Christ and not in man. what part of filthy rags or none good no not one can't one understand. let us be known by Him and know Him.jimp

T
Tears_of_joy

Brethren, the first message that I heard from brother Keith Daniel was this:

[b]Be Ye Holy For I am Holy[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1864

Please take time and hear it.

T
tjservant

This reminded me of one of the first J.C. Ryle tracts I read.

We Must Be Holy - J.C. Ryle

"We must he holy on earth before we die, if we desire to go to heaven after death. If we hope to dwell with God for ever in the life to come, we must endeavour to be like Him in the life that now is. We must not only admire holiness, and wish for holiness: we must be holy.

Holiness cannot justify and save us: holiness cannot cover our iniquities, make satisfaction for transgressions, pay our debts to God. Our best works are no better than filthy rags, when tried by the light of God's law. The righteousness which Jesus Christ brought in must be our only confidence,—the blood of atonement our only hope. All this is perfectly true, and yet we must be holy."

The entire work is [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16496&forum=36&9]here[/url]

S
sermonindex

Somebody made mention of avoiding the danger of extremes, and I agree with that statement.

Most in professing Christendom today, especially in America, live lukewarm, materialistic, selfish, indulgent, and must I say it, sinful lives, all the while professing Christ as their Lord and Savior. These same people attend steeple houses across the nation week after week to hear a false teacher tickle their itching ears and tell them that they can remain in their sins and inherit the Kingdom of God. There is little to no mention of true repentance, brokeness and godly sorrow, forsaking ALL, denying self, taking up the Cross, faith and trust in CHRIST ALONE, walking in the Spirit, etc. They turn the grace of God into lasciviousness, and they are bastardizing the word of God, sons of perdition many of them are, laying fast asleep on the beds of their self-delusion until the Day when Christ the Holy One shall wake them up for the great Judgment by the trump of the Archangel to execute His wrath on their rebellious souls. Scripture clearly says it is the will of God for our sanctification, and that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. It says that whoever is born of God does not commit sin (as a willful act and continuous practice) and walks in obedience to Christ's commands.

But at the same time, many modern day Pharisees and religious hypocrites who know not the grace of God are exalting the works of human flesh and committing the same sin of pride that Lucifer did, "I will be like the Most High", claiming to be as sinless and holy as the Perfect God of Heaven, and pronouncing forth the unrighteous judgment of religious condemnation on all those who aren't deluded like they are into believing their sinful natures are completely eradicated. It is heresy according to the word of God to believe you are sinless, exactly like Christ in sinlessness.

Jesus commanded us to be perfect, like His Father. But read it in context, the perfection He is talking about isn't sinless perfection (that would contradict Rom 7 and 1 Joh 1:8). The perfection He is talking about is a perfection of heart-motive, and walking in the type of love that blesses those who curse you and does good to those who do evil to you. According to that, if you truly love your enemies, and will for their highest good, having a heart that is right in the sight of God, then He accredits it to you for perfection; perfection in His teachings, maturity and godliness, a true child of God. Love is the bond of perfection, but it doesn't result in sinlessness, for the same love covers a multitude of sins, the scripture says.

I am so utterly tired of hearing men and men's works exalted. Where is CHRIST in all this? Where? He is our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and perfection!

Hebrews talks about entering God's rest. It says that he who enters God's rest ceases from his own works, a perpetual and blessed Sabbath, no more striving in the flesh to obey God, or counting in our fallen flesh to find the holiness God requires. It is all in Christ, and by ceasing from our own works and letting Christ live in and through us. The flesh is still there, the law of sin that dwells in the flesh is there too, but we must take up the cross, and crucify the flesh, and walk in the Spirit. And bless God, His salvation isn't partial...behold, the Word declares a mystery; we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, given glorified bodies, made like unto Christ at His coming! But till then, we are far from sinless, and live in a fallen body subject to the curse of a fallen world.

M
MikeH

Josef_Urban published

HOLINESS: THE FALSE AND THE TRUE
By Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951)
A true testimony to:

[color=009900]1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:[/color]

and

[color=009900]Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/color]

Kind regards
Mike

B
BVO

Josef,
I started reading the article yesterday and even printed it off to take stabs at it during the day, but never got to it. I think your understanding and stating of "both extremes" is fantastic. Through my Christian life, I have been guilty of spirtual ping pong. I believe many lean hard toward the Holiness camp as a reaction to the laciviousness as grace camp's sinfullness. We were saved at and became a part of a Quaker (Friends) church and I saw the same thing in their history. They threw out so much good because of the abuses and ended up with some bad as a result. If we can focus on Jesus though, He will keep us centered. An analogy that comes to mind is that of a farmer plowing. The farmer picks a point across the field to aim toward to help keep straight. He may be a bad driver (back and forth) or there may be unexpected obstacles (rocks), but as long as he focuses on the Fixed point at the destination his row will be overall straight. I hear so much about balancing grace and law in our lives and that ends up easily becoming a focus and leading to it's own problems. We mustn't take our eyes off of the goal which is Christ Jesus. Thank you for your insights and challenges! Love in Christ, Barry

T
tjservant

I grew up in a Church that had no sinners. Of course they would gossip, backbite, fight, lie, cheat...but they were all sinless. They told me so.

The Church I now attend has sinners in it. They do not intentionally sin...but when they do fall short of the mark they are terribly grieved. They hate sin...they are not perfect (by human standards)...but they will be one day.

M
murrcolr

It is essential that we understand this to enable us to apprehend the ‘workings’ of Entire Sanctification and how to obtain it.

Here is a danger zone concerning interpretation, and Satan has capitalised on it by bringing confusion over the old man, the old self and the crucified life.

Paul clearly shows us in these verses in Romans 7 that the ‘I’ or ‘Self’ is something different from the Sin Nature. It was the Old Man, the sin
nature, that was crucified on the cross ‘with Him’ Romans 6:6b – not ‘Self’. The crucified dying-to-self-life has to be applied (our part) before the Lord can deliver us from the Sin Nature

Paget Wilkes of the Japan Evangelistic Band could talk on any subject, but best of all on the power of the precious Blood to cleanse the
heart from sin… He loved to put the two verses together, Romans 7:17 and Galatians 2:20 – ‘Not I, but sin that dwelleth in me.’ and, ‘Not I, but
Christ that dwelleth in me.’. Although I had been trusting for a Full Salvation, I had never seen until then that sin was something separate from myself. He made it clear that the sin mentioned in Romans 7 is something apart from you that controls you and renders your best desires powerless. It is that inherited sin that the devil put into our first parents and is in every child of Adam until cleansed through faith in the Blood of Christ”

Thought! If the ‘self’ has been crucified on the cross with Jesus, which is mostly taught and therefore believed today, why is the New
Testament full of so many references to ‘dying to self’ and ‘the crucified life’? Philippians 3:10, 1 Peter 2:21 etc.

M
murrcolr

jimp said:
hi, why do we have to go back before martin luther had this same experience and came up with the same conclusion.we are saved...sanctified... glorified by grace thru faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.it is all in Christ and not in man. what part of filthy rags or none good no not one can't one understand. let us be known by Him and know Him.

“God, who delivers from the guilt of sin through faith in Jesus Christ, is able to deliver the believer from the powers of sin as well.”

‘Full Surrender’ by Edwin Orr

D
daniel-

Hello murrcolr,


I wonder if you could give us a testimony about your personal "eradication" of your sin nature. Has that happened to you? Is your inward-life perfectly pure?

Daniel

M
murrcolr

tjservant said;

This reminded me of one of the first J.C. Ryle tracts I read.

We Must Be Holy - J.C. Ryle

"We must he holy on earth before we die, if we desire to go to heaven after death. If we hope to dwell with God for ever in the life to come, we must endeavour to be like Him in the life that now is. We must not only admire holiness, and wish for holiness: we must be holy.

Holiness cannot justify and save us: holiness cannot cover our iniquities, make satisfaction for transgressions, pay our debts to God. Our best works are no better than filthy rags, when tried by the light of God's law. The righteousness which Jesus Christ brought in must be our only confidence,—the blood of atonement our only hope. All this is perfectly true, and yet we must be holy."
----------------------------------------
Hope this helps you there is a lot of dodgy teaching out there.

Who is Holy?.....................God is Holy

What has God not got - but man has?......Sin

Holiness is a state where there is no sin

The Bible tells us that holiness is perfect deliverance from sin - ‘the blood of Jesus … cleanseth us from ALL sin’ 1 John 1:7

“Holiness is a state of being set apart for a Holy use, separated to the service of God” J. G. Govan – Spirit of Revival.

“Although the word ‘sanctified’ is not synonymous with the word ‘cleanse’, it must pre-suppose or include cleansing, as an unclean vessel could not be entirely set apart to God’s service”, writes John G Govan in his booklet ‘Sanctified and Kept’

“Create in me a clean heart O God,” cried David in Psalm 51:10

H
hmmhmm

I think Wesley has some very good points in this

Christian Perfection

“Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus”
(Philippians 3:12)

Introduction
The teaching of Christian Perfection causes more offence among believers than any other doctrine. Why? Because many cannot tolerate the word ‘perfect.’ Those who teach it are considered to be the worst of heretics. Some warn us that it is best not to use such terminology, but does not Scripture make use of it? We cannot make room for the devil by modifying the words. In our text Paul indicates that he was not as perfect as he should be. Some who deny the idea of perfection use this as an excuse for their own ungodliness, forgetting that Paul adds, “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded” (Philippians 3:15.)
In this sermon we will endeavour to find out in what sense a believer is not perfect, and in what sense he is perfect.

In what sense is a believer not perfect?
(1) Scripture and personal experience reveal that we are not perfect in knowledge. We may understand many wonderful truths, yet there are many areas where we verge on total ignorance. There are apparent mysteries both in the spiritual and natural world we will never fathom out. Do we fully comprehend the doctrine of the Trinity, or how Christ could empty Himself and take upon Himself human flesh? Are we able to interpret all the signs and the seasons? Do we know the exact moment of Christ’s return? We fail to understand the way God works, especially in our own generation. Without revelation we would find no answers for the many questions we have. In reality we are not perfect in knowledge.
(2) Christians are not perfect to the extent that they cannot make mistakes. Errors are the result of our limited capabilities. True, we do not err regarding the plain teaching of salvation and sanctification, but we all go astray on everyday matters. How often we have been mistaken about facts and have presented them in a false light? How many times have we misunderstood the intentions of others? Do not even the wisest of Christians disagree regarding the interpretation of some Bible text?
(3) Christians are not perfect with regards to personal infirmities or failures. We often lapse in the areas of morality, worldliness, evil speaking, and even taking God’s name in vain. By infirmities we also refer to physical problems such as slowness of understanding, muddled thoughts, and loss of memory. Do we not all have flaws in manners, speech, and personality?
(4) Every day we have to contend with many temptations. The devil constantly tries to fill our minds with his lies. The fact that we are tempted proves that we have not reached absolute perfection, for do we not give in to it? Except for our Lord Jesus Christ, because we are in the flesh, we are prone to lapses and find it easier to sin than obey God. Nevertheless, those who seek holiness are always moving to higher ground.

In what sense is a believer perfect?
We have to agree that there are several stages of growth in the spiritual life, just as there is in the natural. The apostle John writes to “little children,” “young men,” and “fathers” in the faith (1 John 2), indicating that this is true, however at no stage is ungodliness acceptable. If we are truly under grace then “sin shall not have dominion over” us (Romans 6:14.) Genuine Christians are free from outward sinful deeds … “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:8-9.)
Some suggest that these verses teach that believers do not sin to the same extent as the unsaved, but what support is there anywhere in Scripture for such a view? Is this not the same as saying that Christians must sin? We agree that even the holiest of men, Abraham, Moses and David for instance, committed some terrible sins, but this does not mean that there is no victory over it. Also we ought not to measure the Christian life against the failures of men. John makes it abundantly clear that all who commit sin are of the devil (1 John 3:8), and that the child of God does not sin (1 John 3:9.) Does this not speak of the need of Christian Perfection?
To answer the question, “In what sense is a believer perfect?” we submit the following:
(1) Believers have freedom from evil and sinful thoughts. Genuine Christians do not meditate on ways to carry out wickedness, to steal, murder, or lust. Evil intentions come from within an evil heart, but if it has been cleansed through Christ’s blood the evil heart no longer exists. Whenever the devil seeks to implant evil thoughts in our minds we can use the spiritual weapons at our disposal to defeat them … “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Ephesians 6:11-12) … “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:5.)
(2) Believers have freedom from evil attitudes. The Lord Jesus Christ has called His followers to love their enemies, abusers, and persecutors. This means that they do not retaliate or seek revenge for the wrongs done against them; instead they have a forgiving spirit. Only a purified heart can contain such love as this.
(3) Believers have freedom from an evil nature. The apostle Paul states, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:20.) Do not these words reveal that Christians have been delivered from both inward and outward sin? All true believers have had their hearts cleansed by faith, and seek to be pure and holy. They have a new inward nature that affects the outside. Instead of anger, bitterness and unforgiveness there is the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and self-control. If, as some say, we are only freed from sin at death, then does not this make death the saviour? Yes, we do allow sin into our lives, but through the Holy Spirit our consciences tell us that we must “confess our sins” so that the faithful and just Lord would “forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9.)

Conclusion
To suggest that Christ does not give us power over sin is to establish justification by works. But, sin no longer has dominion over the child of God (Romans 6:14.) We do not have to commit sin, have evil thoughts and wicked attitudes. God has created a new and clean heart within us (Ezekiel 36:25-36.
These are wonderful promises! But listen, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1.) Instead of looking back to the way we were, let us look forward to what we ought to be, to the provisions won for us through the blood of Christ … “Forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before” (Philippians 3:13.)

S
sermonindex

Hi Murray,

I liked that line-up you quoted on 'not I, but...' and just wanted to point you towards taking a minute to check out how the modern translations treat 'our old man'. I think you'll find 'our old self' in one well-used translation (at least) and herein lies the mental and doctrinal confusion... in that everyone knows they have a 'self' but, not everyone acknowledges the corporate truth of 'our old man'. If they did, then that 'our old man' was crucified with Christ, would have the potential to work in them what the rest of Paul's teatise both in and outside Romans, is intended to communicate.

'Our old man' is necessarily associated with 'the body of sin' or 'the body of death', and when this is not even in a believer's mind, they have nothing to hope for with regard to the working of Christ's death in them, which is not dependent entirely on the daily taking up of the cross. I'm not minimising the daily taking up of the cross, but it can only work for those who already understand they have been grafted into the death of Christ in the way Paul describes (with its effects) all through Romans 6.

Talking (in translations) about 'self' immediately turns people towards thinking about 'I' and 'me' and 'myself', whereas seeing 'our old man' - the source of sin - put to death in Christ, causes us to look towards Him for [u]our[/u] life. We can understand that He gives 'me' life because 'I' was included in 'our old man'. I don't think the language of 'self' works the same way... which means the promotion of modern translations may have something to answer the 'modern' Christian, for obscuring the key truth by which they can understand the gift of Christ's death (that is, not merely to obtain forgiveness for their sins, but to destroy the power of sin itself).

C
crsschk

Jesus commanded us to be perfect, like His Father. But read it in context, the perfection He is talking about isn't sinless perfection (that would contradict Rom 7 and 1 Joh 1:8). The perfection He is talking about is a perfection of heart-motive, and walking in the type of love that blesses those who curse you and does good to those who do evil to you. According to that, if you truly love your enemies, and will for their highest good, having a heart that is right in the sight of God, then He accredits it to you for perfection; perfection in His teachings, maturity and godliness, a true child of God. Love is the bond of perfection, but it doesn't result in sinlessness, for the same love covers a multitude of sins, the scripture says.

For what it's worth ... broke down the word [b]perfect[/b] earlier and just updated it to each instance in the New Testament, that is where it is specifically rendered by a Strongs number. Found it interesting that even within the same context (in places) two different usages or derivitaves are used. Having put it together, havent yet had the time to look at, the exercise was as much a selfish one, just to see if perhaps my or even our understanding and application might be different than we suppose.

If I have done this correctly, there are 12 variations or usages of the word [b]perfect[/b]. That surprised me and caused the same impulse to investigate more. So it seems not only in context but by [i]definition[/i] in context ... Is there something more here or is it just a didactic exercise?

M
murrcolr

Dorcas Said;

Talking (in translations) about 'self' immediately turns people towards thinking about 'I' and 'me' and 'myself', whereas seeing 'our old man' - the source of sin - put to death in Christ, causes us to look towards Him for our life. We can understand that He gives 'me' life because 'I' was included in 'our old man'. I don't think the language of 'self' works the same way... which means the promotion of modern translations may have something to answer the 'modern' Christian, for obscuring the key truth by which they can understand the gift of Christ's death (that is, not merely to obtain forgiveness for their sins, but to destroy the power of sin itself).
-------------------------------------

Thank you Dorcas

That is, not merely to obtain forgiveness for their sins, but to destroy the power of sin itself.

P
PaulWest

the exercise was as much a selfish one, just to see if perhaps my or even our understanding and application might be different than we suppose.

I've found this to be the greatest parameter in discovering truth - that is, truth that impacts on a personal level. Truth never seems to stick until it becomes [i]personal.[/i]

Just for the record, there is a very interesting parallel of the concept of perfection found in the comparison of two kings in the Old Testament: Amaziah and Asa. Of course we all know the term [i]perfect[/i] was used by God for Noah - but even more amazingly, the Holy Spirit uses the term perfection and [i]im[/i]perfection to describe two other kings who both had major faults on a carnal level. Consider Amaziah:

"Amaziah was twenty and five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jehoaddan of Jerusalem. And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, [i]but not with a perfect heart"[/i] (II Chronicles 25:1-2).

Now, contrast this to King Asa. If you recall, Asa consulted physicians rather than the Lord when his feet were diseased (II Chronicles 16:12); he struck an allegiance with the King of Syria to fight the armies of Baasha rather than trust in the Lord's defense (II Chronicles 16:3), and if that wasn't enough, he later became enraged when Hanani the seer rebuked him for this folly, and had him imprisoned (II Chronicles 16:10). Nevertheless, in spite of all these acts, God said Asa's heart was "[i]perfect during all his days[/i]" (see I Kings 15:14, II Chr. 15:17).


With Amaziah, we see a man who did [i]that which was right[/i] but not with a perfect heart, and with Asa we see a man who did erroneous things, though his eulogy by the Holy Ghost was: "...nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the Lord all his days" (I kings 15:14). I once preached a message on this very topic, this seemingly dichotomous parallel regarding the perfection of God attibuted to certain men. Men tend to see and define perfection by the physical and moral standards set in place by their cultural dictates, but not so with God. His ways and judgments are not at all like ours; in fact, 99.9% of the time they are diametrically opposed to the wisdom of man. We see King Asa furious at a godly seer, making an unlawful truce with a pagan king, not taking down all the high places and we make our judgment.

We can hear of a believer falling into pornography and spiritual despair for a season and make a hasty judgment, not knowing God is well beyond the fruit of peripheal senses and is looking into and truthfully judging the hidden, inward part, the spiritual nucleus of a believer's life in Christ. And when God brings forth a judgment, the intellect and wisdom of men shatter in illogic consternation: "How can God judge such!"

I think there will be some massive shocks at the judgment. Many deemed righteous and perfect will be unmasked and judged unrighteous and imperfect; and in many cases, I believe the opposite will be true for those already judged pessimistially according to men's understanding. Our only soul cry concerning these things should be, "O Lord, Thou knowest..."

Brother Paul

B
Billy7

I am by no means as qualified to comment on this subject as most of you seem to be, but I would like to share what I feel that God has been impressing on my heart, as of late, in regards to the issue of holiness.

The Word says, "...but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy" (1 Pet. 1: 15 - 16).

I wondered, how holy do I need to be?

Answer: As holy as I know and am able to be.

Knowledge and Ability = Responsibility

Responsibility accepted = Innocence = Holiness

Responsibility rejected = Guilt = Sin

God is holy because He chooses to live up to the level of light (knowledge of truth) that He possesses (which happens to be, in His case, perfect, infinite light or knowledge of truth). In other words, God is as holy as He can be.

If I am to be holy as He is holy, then I must be as holy as I can be--no more and no less.

God only requires me to be that which I know and am able to be. For Him to require any thing more or any thing less of me would be unreasonable on His part.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.


Brother Mike had mentioned the use of the word perfect and it reminded me of this passage from the Psalms


"I have seen an end of all perfection: [i]but[/i] thy commandment [i]is[/i] exceeding broad."


- Psalm 119 verse 96(KJV)

Was reminded too how in Exodus 15 verse 11(KJV) it says of God, that He is

"glorious in holiness"

P
psalm1

I am a member of the household of God.
I am a son of God
I am declared righteous and holy,a holy vessel set apart for and to God.
sin and God cannot dwell in the same vessel.
So if I sin I have an advocate with the father Jesus Christ the righteous is able to forgive my sin.

How do I know I am saved?
If any man is in Christ he is a new creation,the old things have passed away.Behold all things have become new.
I am holy because he says I am holy.
Anything belonging to God is holy.
I am not holy due to the absence of sin.
I am not my own.I belong to God. Therefore I am a holy vessel

David

M
murrcolr

psalm1 said;

I am a member of the household of God.
I am a son of God
I am declared righteous and holy,a holy vessel set apart for and to God.
sin and God cannot dwell in the same vessel.
So if I sin I have an advocate with the father Jesus Christ the righteous is able to forgive my sin.

How do I know I am saved?
If any man is in Christ he is a new creation,the old things have passed away.Behold all things have become new.
I am holy because he says I am holy.
Anything belonging to God is holy.
I am not holy due to the absence of sin.
I am not my own.I belong to God. Therefore I am a holy vessel

-------------------------------------------------
Taken from the Book by Samuel Brengle Helps to Holiness

http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/0301-0400/HDM0348.PDF

"True, God did a thorough work, brother. When He converted you, He forgave all your
sins, every one of them. He did not leave half of them unforgiven, but blotted them all out as a thick cloud to be remembered against you no more for ever. He also adopted you into His family and sent His Holy Spirit into your heart to tell you that blessed bit of heavenly news; and that information made you feel happier than to have been told that you had fallen heir to a million dollars, or been elected governor of a state, for this made you an heir of God and a joint heir of allthings with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Glory to God! It is a great thing to be converted. But, brother, are you saved from all impatience, anger and like sins of the heart? Do you live a holy life?"

"Well, you see, I don't look at this matter exactly as you do," said the man. "I do not believe we can be saved from all impatience and anger in this life." And so, when pressed to the point, he begged the question, and really contradicted his own assertion that he had got holiness when he was converted. As a friend writes, he "would rather deny the sickness than take the medicine." The fact is, that neither the Bible nor experience proves that a man gets a clean heart when he is converted, but just the contrary. He does have his sins forgiven; he does receive the witness of adoption into God's own family; he does have his affections changed. But before he has gone very far he will find his patience mixed up with some degree of impatience, his kindness mixed with wrath, his meekness mixed with anger (which is of the heart and may not be seen of the world, but of which he is painfully conscious), his humility mixed with pride, his loyalty to Jesus mixed with a shame of the Cross, and, in fact, the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh, in
greater or less degree, are all mixed up together.

But this will be done away with when he gets a clean heart, and it will take a second work
of grace, preceded by a whole-hearted consecration and as definite an act of faith as that which preceded his conversion, to get it.
After conversion, he finds his old sinful nature much like a tree which has been cut down,
but the stump still left. The tree causes no more bother, but the stump will still bring forth little shoots, if it is not watched. The quickest and most effective way is to put some dynamite under the stump and blow it up.
Just so, God wants to put the dynamite of the Holy Ghost (the word "dynamite" comes from
the Greek word "power," in Acts i. 8) into every converted soul, and for ever do away with that
old troublesome, sinful nature, so that he can truly say, "Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor. v. 17).

D
daniel-

Dear murrcolr,


You have not yet answered my question in my previous post. Could you give us a testimony about your own experience of this "second work of grace" ? When did it happen to you and have you been perfectly free of any inward corruption in every aspect since then?

Daniel

B
broclint

I have read this thread with interest.

I remember preaching a message many years ago entitled "Defending Sin". It is not that any of us have reached that place of sinless perfection, but it is so ironic that so many for so many years have made a profession of defending a defenseless position. Someone said, "I had rather shoot for the moon and end up hitting the woodpile, than to simply shoot for the woodpile". To try to put anyone on the spot by asking what they have accomplished toward perfection is to beg the question. Job said:
Job 9:20 - 21 (NKJV) 20 Though I were righteous, my own mouth would condemn me; Though I were blameless, it would prove me perverse. 21 “I am blameless, yet I do not know myself; I despise my life.

But the testimony of God about him was what counts. Job 2:3 (KJV) 3And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.


The following is one chapter out of a book by W. E. Shepard,
[u]Wrested Scriptures Made Plain [/u]
2nd chapter:

“There is none righteous, no not one.” Romans 3:10.
Here we again face the necessity of studying the context to enable us to understand properly the meaning of a verse. To take out this segment of the text and declare that there is none righteous, no, not one, will at once entangle a person in such a snarl of contradiction that he will be hopelessly unable to extricate himself. The word of God properly understood does not contradict itself. When we find some statement which is an apparent discrepancy, which flies in the face of the general tenor of the Scriptures, we should neither expose our ignorance in the wrong use of it, nor practice wrong in “handling the word of God deceitfully.” If, believing that it really means that there is none righteous in the world, we would place this portion of the text, “There is none righteous, no, not one,” alongside of the practical teaching of God’s word, we would at once find ourselves in a dilemma, and the odds would be against us. Let us place by the side of it a few verses like the following:
“Little children, let no man deceive you; he that doeth righteousness
is righteous, even as He is righteous.” 1 John 3:7.
It would seem from this text that John was warning them against those who claimed there were none righteous, declaring that “he that doeth righteousness is righteous.”

“If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:29.

“And they (Zacharias and Elizabeth) were both righteous, walking
in all the commandments and ordinances -of the Lord blameless.”Luke 1:6.

“The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
James 5:6.

“For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have -desired to see those things which ye ‘see, and have not seen them.” Matthew 13:17.

Thus, we find that instead of there being none righteous, no, not one, the
Word shows the number to be “many.” The Scriptures abound both in precept and in examples of righteousness. If the atonement of Jesus cannot make men righteous, we ask, What can it do?

Our own righteousness, we confess, is “filthy rags,” and Jesus said,
“Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter Into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20.

We must have the inwrought righteousness of Christ. Not a robe simply, that covers our unrighteousness, leaving us sinful and unholy, but His righteousness imparted to us.
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9.

If all unrighteousness is cleansed away, then certainly there is righteousness in its place. If the atonement of Christ cannot get down as deep as sin has gone, it must be a failure. But who would say that Christ made a failure in His atonement?
There is so much ignorance abroad in the land. So many seem to think that it makes very little difference if they do “sin a little.” They claim that one cannot help sinning some every day in word, thought and deed. They forget, or else are awful ignorant, that the Word is extremely prohibitory on that line. Hear the Word of the Lord:
“Stand in awe and sin not.” Psalm 4:4.
“Awake to righteousness and sin not.” 1 Corinthians 15:34.
“Go and sin no more?” John 8:11.
“How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?”-Romans 6:2.
“He that committeth sin is of the devil.” 1 John 3:8.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin”1 John 3:9.
“Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.” 1 John 3:6.
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezekiel 4:18.

We fail to see how anybody can read such commands, warnings and assertions, and then fly in the face of them all and think that sin is of little consequence. Beware! “Be sure your sin will find you out.” — Numbers 32:23. One would better trifle with chain lightning than with sin. In view of the coming judgment, when the hearts of men Will be weighed in the balances of divine justice, when sin will be sized up in its awful blackness and heinousness, let us see to it that none of the accursed thing be found upon our souls.

Sin and salvation are incompatible. They will not mix any more than oil and water. Saints cannot be sinners at the same time. One cannot live in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the world simultaneously. We have read of “natural law in the spiritual world.” The property of impenetrability obtains in the spiritual realm. Two bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Neither can one body be in two places at the same time. One cannot be dwelling in the light of God and also be in darkness. He cannot be in the service of Christ and simultaneously in the service of sin.
“Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for lie shall save His people from their sins.” Matthew 1:21.

Not saved in one’s sins, but from them. What is a sinner? Let us see. A liar is one who lies; a deceiver is one who deceives; a murderer is one who murders; a sinner must be one who sins. What is a Christian? A Mohammedan is a follower of Mohammed; a Confucianist is a follower of Confucius; a Christian is a follower of Christ. How did Christ act? He “was holy, .harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners.” — Hebrews 7:26. “As He is, so are we in this world.” — 1 John 4:17. Are we Christians?
Are we followers of the meek and lowly Jesus? Are we imitators of that heavenly example? To say that one is a Christian and yet a sinner is about as ridiculous as to say that one is a truthful liar, an honest thief, an intelligent idiot, a healthy invalid, a living corpse, or a holy devil. We are persuaded, though, that many times, when there is dispute on these questions, there is a greater difference in terms than in actual belief.

In the Old Testament we find sins of ignorance mentioned together with the necessary offering for such. They were not classed with willful transgressions, and were dealt with in another manner. In the same sense may we speak of the same now, though the expression, “sins of ignorance,” is not mentioned in the New Testament. We will always be liable and subject to mistakes, blunders and infirmities. We will do things ignorantly, which we will see afterwards, and for which we will be sorry. Yet these mistakes and blunders are not classed in the catalogue of sins. If they are, then everybody is a sinner, no matter what state of grace he has reached. They are all dead, for “the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” They are not abiding in Him, for “he that abideth in Him sinneth not.” They should not profess to be born again, for “whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin.” It would make the Word of God irreconcilably contradictory. If those who claim to be Christians, and yet sinners, mean by sin, those things done in ignorance, we can accept their experience, but they should define themselves better.

On the other hand, if they mean known sin, voluntary, willful transgression, then we must believe them to be misguided and deceived. A thousand mistakes, or, to use the Old Testament expression, sins of ignorance, are compatible with the Christian life, but not any known, voluntary sin. The former will not break the union with Christ, but the latter severs the connection. Perhaps some mean that they commit known sin daily, but not voluntary sin. They have a quick temper, or some other weakness, which gets the advantage of them so suddenly that they are overcome before they think. They know it is wrong, but it is not voluntary. It is not with their consent, for they much prefer not to be overcome. They go at once to the Lord and ask pardon, but are overcome again and again the same way. Thus, they say they are Christians, but sin every day. Suppose they failed, after one of those spells, to find pardon, would they not remain in the dark? Certainly this is an up-and-down experience. We could not say an up-and down Christian life, but rather an up-Christian and down-sinner life. Thank God there is a better way of going than this. God is able and willing to take the “down” element out of us. He proposes so to purify the heart that there will be no uprisings of unholy tempers in it.

We will take up the context under consideration and see if it is a fair description of a real Christian experience. If the portion, “there is none righteous,” applies to the Christian, then certainly the context applies to the Christian also. We will take them in their order.
“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” If, then, there is none righteous, then none of them understand or seek after God.

“They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” We must abide by the context; so, all Christians are gone out of the way, are unprofitable, and none of them do good, no, not one.

“Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips.” What a description of a Christian! His mouth an open -sepulcher, using deceit with his tongue, and having the poison of asps under his lips.
“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” And this a Christian!

“Their feet are swift to shed blood.” A dangerous class of people, that. All this applies to the Christian, if the first part does. “Destruction and misery are in all their ways.” All the ways of a Christian are destruction, and their lives are filled with misery. This is certainly a very dark picture, and not much in it to lure one on to embrace it.
“And the way of peace have they not known.” Take the medicine, brother, if you claim that there is none righteous. There is no peace then in the Christian’s heart or life. He has never known such a thing.

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.” With a reckless, fearless, don’t-care manner, he proceeds on the evil tenor of his way. All this applying to the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ? Who, that professes to be a Christian, is willing to lay claim to such a catalogue of sins as his experience? If the first statement, “there is none righteous,” applies to him, then all the rest apply to him also, for the subject is not changed until we come to the close of the clause, “there is no fear of God before their eyes.”

A little further on it says, “For there is no difference, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” So, we see that it is simply showing forth man’s condition in his unregenerate or sinful state.

Coming back to the beginning of this description, we find these words, “As it is ‘written,” and then follows that very accommodative text, with which so many have allowed the devil to morphine them. “It is written.” Where is it written? These statements are taken from the 14th and 53d Psalms, and the 59th chapter of Isaiah. In all of these places the context makes it plain that the reference is to the unregenerate people. Especially does Isaiah make this plain. He says, “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you that He will not hear.” Then follows the place where it is written, as we see in Romans, 3rd chapter. But that this is not a necessary experience, incapable of being overcome, the verse just preceding the one quoted from Isaiah says, “Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither His ear heavy, that He will not hear.”

This cuts off all escape, and leaves one without any excuse for pleading for unrighteousness. This catalogue of sins is arrayed against them because they have allowed sin to come in between them and God. But He declares that His hand is not too short to save nor His ear too deaf to hear.

The very fact that David, Isaiah and Paul all use this language to illustrate the sinner’s life proves that his heart is just the same, no matter when and where you find it. All the way down the ages it is just the same. There never was and never will be any improvement till it is improved by the cleansing blood of Jesus. The world is not growing any better, only as hearts come in contact with Him that is “mighty to save.”

Dear reader, do not hide behind some refuge that will not stand the test of the judgment day. Beware how you plead for sin, lest you may not be able to pass muster on that great day of days.


Clint

P
psalm1

I am not sure what is being compared here but there is nobody on this planet that has stopped sinning.
What about the sins of omission?
Hebrews tells us the anything apart from faith is sin.
Does anyone think they have operated in faith 100% of the time?
What about the sins against Gods power?
It was this sin that killed the one steadying the ark.
It would appear to me the mature saint sins more than the carnal saint.So much more is required of the mature saint.
Could this be the revelation of Paul when he called himself the chief of sinners?
It appears to me as we press closer and closer to heaven, and God, that more understanding and revelation reveals more evil resident in the believer, and we ever find ourselves with new shortcomings to either repent of or submit to the Holy fires of Gods cleansing.

I know we are commanded to live Holy lives. And we are declared holy.


"......But we shall all be changed in a moment.in the twinkling of an eye............the dead shall be raised incorruptable,and we shall be changed."


David

M
murrcolr

“True holiness is a Revival of holiness. Personal holiness is more desirable than happiness, he taught, and it is not in heaven alone that God wants our saintliness – it is here and now; holiness is not just a doctrine to be taught, it is a way of life – it is the life of Jesus.”

Duncan Campbell – A Biography’ by Andrew Woolsey p164
-----------------------------------------------
Now we can argue back and forth all week long.


There was time in your life where you did not know Jesus now you know that Jesus is real. Someone had to tell you. All I ask is that you don't close your heart to this teaching.

This teaching was brought to my attention by the Holy Spirit not by Finney or Duncan Campbell. He has revealed it to me and then I have started to look at this teaching.

Some have asked what is your testimony. My testimony is this that the Holy Spirit would teach the disciples "all truth" (John 16:12-13). The Holy Spirit teaches us a knowledge of the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12). I can say I have heard of this teaching from heaven. From there I have desired to know more.

When I saw this post I could not just stand back knowing what I know and be quiet.

I cannot dispute with what the Holy Spirit did through these mens lives, who experienced this Second work of the Holy Spirit. Have you ever asked yourself this question why was the Holy Spirit able to do powerful things through there lives, through the Apostles lives.

What is the difference between men God does great things through and the average everyday Christian? Do you think these answers drop out of the sky? You have to search, dig, and ask.
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“When the act of sin is forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary, that nature of sin still remains in the heart, and so many have never heard that there is deliverance from it. That is why I believe in Holiness meetings.”

Holy Ghost Messages by Charles H Stalker
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Now if you want to keep this nature of sin fine the Holy Spirit will not force you to give it up and either will I.

L
LiveforGod

Hello dear David(psalm1). I read you coment just a while back, and the Lord urged me to say this to you.


but there is nobody on this planet that has stopped sinning.

Brother, I will have to disagree with you. You see, in order for you to say that then you must have known everyperson in this planet. You must have also had to be with them in every time of their lives. You must have had known how close they where with God or not. You must have also known when they where tempted, in what where they tempted, and how it was that they gave in to temptation. But you see I can say that there have been person in this planet that have stoped sinig, by the blood of the Holly Lamb of God , and if I know one, then that is enough to make the statement true.

Brother, I would like to show you a more exelent way. I would like to show you that you don't have to live in sin. That God has life more abundant to give to you. Brother, if you are still in your sins and transpases, then The Bible says, Not I, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." 1 John 3:6

You see you can say that everybody sins, but if GOD's Holly word says quite the oposite, then I will prefer to obey God, than my own thinking.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Is this not saying the oposite of what you are saying?

Oh David, I will pray that you would come to know the Delivering power there is found in the Blood of Christ. It is enough to free you and me from any chain the Devil may have. Chains of sin. I am so sorry to hear that you have not experienced what is to really be holly. To really be pure. That alone will make you want to get closer to the precence of the living God. God's blessing be with you.

C
ChrisJD

Hi again all.


Hope it will be alright to share these also,


"For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? [i]who[/i] among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [i]them that are[/i] about him. O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?"


- Psalm 89 verses 6-8(KJV)

"And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let [i]us[/i] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God."


- Mark chapter 1 verses 23-24(KJV)

C
ChrisJD

Hi brotherclint, how are you?

Not at all to be contrary to you, but I thought to share also how the angel Gabriel caused Zacharias to be [i]dumb[/i], because he(Zacharias) did not [b]believe[/b] his words(Luke 1:20).

B
broclint

Thank you for asking Brother ChrisJD.

I am doing great, but am still in the hospital with Jordan.

Very interested in this thread and its content. I believe there is some clarification needed in a few places.

Clint

B
broclint

David said: How do I know I am saved?If any man is in Christ he is a new creation, the old things have passed away. Behold all things have become new.I am holy because he says I am holy.
Anything belonging to God is holy.
I am not holy due to the absence of sin.
I am not my own. I belong to God. Therefore I am a holy vessel.

And: I am not sure what is being compared here but there is nobody on this planet that has stopped sinning.


Brother this is not a personal attack, but as our moderator Mike B. said, a challenge to verify and to substantiate just what you are saying here. Could you please give some scripture for such statements?

John said the way we can know we are saved is: 1 John 2:3 - 6 (NKJV) 3Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 John 2:29 (KJV) 29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


1 John 5:18 (KJV) 18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


As to what was being "compared" in the article cited in my previous post: the post was of how one scripture so frequently used to justify “sinning Christians” is used out of context, that context being, the whole of Romans for one, and secondly, the whole of scripture, from whence the quote came that was quoted by Paul. And instead of mere statements, the article uses scriptures, not a few, that refute the blanket statements regarding sinning Christians. I began the post with the words: “It is not that any of us have reached that place of sinless perfection, but it is so ironic that so many for so many years have made a profession of defending a defenseless position”.

I am aware that the post already cited was long, but it bears reading completely and carefully because of the scriptures that are either to be believed or excused away and rejected.
And if you read the article carefully you will find this statement:

We must have the inwrought righteousness of Christ. Not a robe simply, that covers our unrighteousness, leaving us sinful and unholy, but His righteousness imparted to us. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9

If all unrighteousness is cleansed away, then certainly there is righteousness in its place. If the atonement of Christ cannot get down as deep as sin has gone, it must be a failure. But who would say that Christ made a failure in His atonement?
There is so much ignorance abroad in the land. So many seem to think that it makes very little difference if they do “sin a little.” They claim that one cannot help sinning some every day in word, thought and deed. They forget, or else are awful ignorant, that the Word is extremely prohibitory on that line. Hear the Word of the Lord:
“Stand in awe and sin not.” Psalm 4:4.
“Awake to righteousness and sin not.” 1 Corinthians 15:34.
“Go and sin no more?” John 8:11.
“How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?”-Romans 6:2.
“He that committeth sin is of the devil.” 1 John 3:8.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin”1 John 3:9.
“Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.” 1 John 3:6.
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezekiel 4:18.

You made this statement also:

“Anything belonging to God is holy.”

That statement is simply false.

Psalms 24:1 (KJV) 1 The earth is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Psalms 50:12 (KJV) 12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

1 John 5:19 (KJV) 19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.



David said: It would appear to me the mature saint sins more than the carnal saint. So much more is required of the mature saint.

Could this be the revelation of Paul when he called himself the chief of sinners?

Dear Brother, Paul is the one who said: “Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect.” 2 Corinthians 13:11.
“And this also we wish even your perfection.”2 Corinthians 13:9.
“Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect.”1 Corinthians 2:6.
“That we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.”Colossians 1:28.
“That ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”Colossians 4:12.
“That we might see your face and might perfect that which is lacking
in your faith.” 1 Thessalonians 3:10.
“That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all
good works.” 2 Timothy 3:17.
“Make you perfect in every good work to do His will.” Hebrews 13:21.

Many of these verses already cited by Brother Mike B. Certainly Paul would not be asking that of his fellow brethren if he considered himself to be still in the condition from which he was saved. The whole context of the verse is obvious in the very first phrase.
1 Timothy 1:15 - 16 (KJV) 15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

If that were his current condition rather than his testimony, just as many of us could easily say of ourselves when we look at our sorry past, how do you reconcile these scriptures:
1 Thessalonians 2:10 - 12 (KJV) 10Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: 11As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, 12That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
And:
1 Corinthians 15:34 (KJV) 34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

And:
Romans 6:1 - 2 (KJV) 1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And his testimony to that same Timothy:
2 Timothy 4:6 - 7 (KJV) 6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

And his frequent admonitions to “imitate me”.
1 Corinthians 4:16 - 17 (NKJV) 16Therefore I urge you, imitate me. 17For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

1 Corinthians 11:1 - 2 (KJV) 1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.


Philippians 3:17 (NKJV) 17Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.

It would be ludicrous if Paul were speaking of his present walk as the chief of sinners, rather what is clearly implied by the text as a testimony to the saving grace of Christ to sinners. And he would be the chief of hypocrites to call upon his followers to do what he himself were not doing.


David said: If any man is in Christ he is a new creation, the old things have passed away. Behold all things have become new.

I am not holy due to the absence of sin.
I am not my own. I belong to God. Therefore I am a holy vessel.

David said:I am holy because he says I am holy.

Where? When?

Where and when has He ever called sin holy?
First As I said earlier, it is not at all that anyone that I know of is claiming sinless perfection, but on the other hand to claim “I am holy because he says I am holy’ is simply an unsubstantiated statement. It is round reasoning that skirts the whole issue of holiness without facing the scriptural requirement for it. It is a cop out that gets men “off the hook” which when we honestly face the scripture is a dangerous thing to do.

David said: I know we are commanded to live Holy lives. And we are declared holy.

Declared “righteous” yes, a legal statement, but declared holy?

Where? Here?

1 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV) 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:19 - 20 (KJV) 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Certainly we are [i]to be[/i] holy:

Ephesians 1:4 (KJV) 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should [i]be holy[/i] and without blame before him in love:


Ephesians 5:26 - 27 (KJV) 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should [i]be holy[/i] and without blemish.

Peter 1:15 - 17 (KJV) 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so [i]be ye holy[/i] in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, [i]Be ye holy[/i]; for I am holy. 17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

The Old Testament is very clear regarding the kind of sin for which there was no sacrifice and that was presumptuous sin. And the writer of Hebrews makes it very clear that those who sin presumptuously are in graver danger under the New Covenant than the old.

It is so very easy for us to slough off the Biblical teaching on holiness, but that is not a wise thing to do. When you check out church history, and the great revivals, and certainly the one that began what has now degenerated into what is called the charismatic movement, you find that they started off as "holiness" revivals. It is an easy matter to look up the history of what is called the "classical pentecostals" and the Methodists, and the revivals of Finney among many others and before there were any "outpourings" or "gifts" there was a call for sanctification and holiness, not as a "declared" state but that called for in
2 Corinthians 7:1 (KJV) 1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

They put away all known sin, which is precisely what most of our speakers at the revival conference admonished us to do from day one. Not that we have already attained are were already perfect... but the pursuit cannot be aborted by excuses at the start.

In Christian love,

Clint


S
sermonindex

I believe this thread started by brother Josef applies only to a certain group of people reading it. Yes, ninety-nine may go to hell for blatant lasciviousness, but I believe this thread is for the one who will go on the other extreme. That is, a false sense of holiness, a modern day Pharisee-ism that is rooted in the flesh and fueled by demons of hell...

While many people whom do not know my dear brother will read the foolish and unrighteous accusations made against him on this forum such as he "is attacking holiness" (ad nauseam), he is simply stating the pure Gospel truth. Sure, there will be those lascivious hypocrites that WALK IN KNOWN (WILLFUL, DELIBERATE) SIN [*Edit to add - those who are willfully ignorant as well] who will run with this and use it as an occasion for their flesh. Their damnation slumbers not and great will be their torment. If you are one of these - I plead with you to flee the coming wrath of God.

Yet this thread is not about the lascivious hypocrite. It is about those who are five, no, ten times the children of hell and of their father the devil. I remember Zac Poonen saying that it is pretty easy to spot the lascivious hypocrite, while the Pharisee is the truly dangerous one.

Here is a video of brother Josef preaching to gang members, drug addicts, and prostitutes. Please watch this video then re-read what he has written here and in the recent "Holiness Imputed? "In Christ" Phraseology" thread that re-surfaced this issue.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGGYxQabZME]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGGYxQabZME[/url]

(I HIGHLY recommend that EVERYONE reading this watch the video)

In Christ - Jim

P
psalm1

broclint, There obviously is much i say that you dont agree with and thats ok.
so many questions.
I consider Gods possessions to be holy and you readily disagree. so be it
I suppose one example would be the articles in the tabernacle.
Do you think the items in the ark are holy?
What about the table of shewbread. Is it holy?
What about the ark itself is it holy?

Bro clint i never said sin was holy.????

Clint 1pet 2;9 says "but ye are a chosen generation,a royal priesthood and a holy nation,a peculiar people"

Also Rom 11;6 says'......if the root be holy so are its branches holy"
1cor 7;14 also declares Gods people holy

These are three places God declares his people holy.


I like your choice of words "a legal statement"

Is God declaring me righteous a legal statement?
And God declaring me holy an illegal statement?

The word of God clearly declares me holy because I belong to him.


I dont know why you are offended at my statement that anything belonging to God is holy?

I suppose a turtle is not holy or a pig but c'mon you know what i am saying.

As far as your objection to 2 cor 5;17 you will have to take that up with the king. It is he who said a changed life is evidence of salvation.


David

P
psalm1

Liveforgod, I think maybe we are not on the same page.
For one I dont argue that it is ok to sin or sin is virtuous or that I am trapped in some sin merrygoround.
My issue is anyone claiming sinless perfection.

Are you claiming sinless perfection?


You sin and I sin.

We may not sin on purpose but we dont have complete revelation.
I may not know I am conceited unless the Lord reveals this sin to me .

So much for my spotless testimony. now i need to repent.

I'm glad to hear you are never going to have to repent again, ever in your life.

I'm not familiar with this new brand of Christianity.

I believe and have experienced the walk like Paul,that the closer I get to my Lord Jesus who is a consuming fire the more I see areas that must be burned out.

I wholeheartedly believe it is the great men of God like Paul that saw as they got closer and closer to the consuming fire they saw their sin and shortcomings and it is this that provoked Paul to label himself the chief of sinners.

Do you for one minute think you are eradicated of pride?

If your last sentence is true you no longer need a savior. You have reached equality with God


David

P
psalm1

broclint, Now do you see why I object to this doctrine of holiness?

Look at liveforgod's post. He claims sinless perfection.
I have seen this before.

This is exactly what this thread exposed from its start.

clint, Did you read the first post of this thread?

It is exactly what liveforgod's doctrine is.

Did you see the condescending prayer over me?


David

H
hmmhmm

some thoughts....

how holy can a human be on this side of eternity?

was satans pollution of this world so strong not even the death of Christ can cleanse us from all sin?

what sins can we commit? witch sins are "ok"?

i am not claiming perfection, we all know we can fall, we are imperfect in many ways as in we are not as God.


but....the least in the kingdom of God should be greater then any one of the saints from OT.


the worst and most carnal saint should be at a standard higher then anyone in OT. I believe that is Gods will for us. The "normal" christian life is not a depressed defeated life.


I believe we can walk as Christ walked if we fulfill the same conditions.


Now i also see all the "extremes" and pitfalls some do dive into, and then they take two or three verses and make those verses into 90% of the bible


i am not speaking as one who has arrived, but pressing on....

I think it is very dangerous in saying we have to be perfect, the thief on the cross had no holiness.... or a holy life, yet he is in heaven....


but we who claim to follow Jesus, should walk as he walked, and not sin.... would God demand that if there was not a possibility to?


now if anyone fall there is forgiveness....


but our goal must be perfection. Live as Christ lived, walk as he walked. That should be our standard

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone.


Brother Christian,


I think it is up to the physician to decide the course and length of the treatment he prescibes for his patients.


Paul writes in Romans,


"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [i]they[/i], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [i]to wit[/i], the redemption of our body."


- Romans chapter 8 verses 23-24(KJV)

H
hmmhmm

I think it is up to the physician to decide the course and length of the treatment he prescibes for his patients.

Hi brother Chris, how are you today?

yes you are probably right, but still are the responsibility to follow the doctors instructions and attend the treatments.... if we dont take the medicine and dont show up for the doctors "check ups" we will maybe not be as healthy as we could have been....

and also, if we take to much then the doctor has prescribed for us, to much medication, there is a chance we get even sicker and get some other complication...

we seem to have both problems... i want to be one of those who follow the instructions fully to get as good health as possible

some say we dont need the treatment, some seem to overdose it and come out even worse...

but no one would be satisfied with less then perfect health if we had a choice.

C
ChrisJD

Brother Christian, I feel pretty good this morning so far, thank you :-)

"we seem to have both problems... i want to be one of those who follow the instructions fully to get as good health as possible"


"...but no one would be satisfied with less then perfect health if we had a choice."

Amen brother!


Brought to mind Phillipians 3:14.

H
hmmhmm

I feel pretty good this morning so far

that is wonderful, here we are the whole family in fever and colds.... but still it is good. One day closer home :-)

Brought to mind Phillipians 3:14.


2Co 4:17-18 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

M
murrcolr

Josef said;

NOTE: This article is a VERY SHOCKING personal testimony by a man who was involved in the “Second Blessing Holiness” movement, a.k.a. Wesleyan holiness, Christian perfectionism, Entire Sanctification, Perfect love, Eradication of original sin, etc. The man who wrote this article, Harry Ironside, was personally involved with the early Salvation Army, a movement which promoted such “holiness” doctrines; in fact, he was a minister in it and laboured in it for a number of years. He sought the “blessing” of “perfect holiness” for years, thought he had “entered in” and was brought through a cycle of condemnation, guilt and hypocrisy that ultimately almost destroyed his Christianity, as it did too many others in his circle. The following is a first hand testimony, written by this man, about what he went through, and how the Lord opened his eyes to trust in the finished work of Christ by faith. If you are involved in any “holiness movement”, Wesleyanism, etc. then DO NOT LET THE ENEMY OF YOUR SOUL PREVENT YOU FROM READING THIS ARTICLE!!! -Josef

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jimdied2sin said;

While many people whom do not know my dear brother will read the foolish and unrighteous accusations made against him on this forum such as he "is attacking holiness"

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Josef said; in his note
He sought the “blessing” of “perfect holiness” for years, thought he had “entered in” and was brought through a cycle of condemnation, guilt and hypocrisy that ultimately almost destroyed his Christianity,

Josef in his quote says because he searched for the blessing and thought he got it and this almost destroyed his Christianity.

What is he saying here? Is it that if you seek for the blessing you won't get it. It's all a lie. You'll have to lie to cover up the truth.

What does he mean come on by this If you are involved in any “holiness movement”, Wesleyanism, etc. then DO NOT LET THE ENEMY OF YOUR SOUL PREVENT YOU FROM READING THIS ARTICLE!!! -Josef

The man is wrong, his heart was wrong not the Blessing he was seeking

At the end of the testimony he says this "I can but praise Him for the matchless grace that gave me to see that perfect holiness and perfect love were to be found, not in me, but in Christ Jesus alone."

He finally gets it at the end Holiness is found in Jesus Christ. Because of Jesus the Holy Spirit comes into us and does a work in us. God starts on the inside and works his way out.


------------------------------------------------

If I have learned anything in my life you have to be honest to your heart. You don't cover things up.

As a young Christian I blew it a lot. What do you do when you make a mess of it do you cover it up or do you expose it. I remember one time praying about a situation asking God to help cause I wanted to get out of the sin I got in. Open up a way that I can get into the light I prayed you must face God honestly. It all came to light the Pastor and elders decided the church needed to know. They where all serious but I was happy I was free I had come from darkness to the light. It all ended up in front of the church which I submitted to. Tough yes but I was free and got the help I needed.

Know that man (Harry) had living lie pretending everything was okay. You can't live like that he should have been honest before God and men and confessed. Instead he leaves the Holiness movement. Instead of being honest he lies.

Are these not the same reasons why people leave the church today. Instead of being honest and open they try and live a Christian life in falseness. Trying to be something they are not. Eventually they can't go on and leave. I ask would it not be better to be honest and tell God how you feel and ask for his help.

We have to be honest before God and say we have missed the mark. You can't go about saying your Holy when you are not.

I know in my heart I am not fully surrendered to the Holy Spirit. I know it won't be easy to get to the point of full surrender. But I have set the course towards full surrender.

Mark 8 V 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, "Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. "

This teaching of the Holiness, Sanctification and the Second blessing is also what Jesus said "Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

When you have fully surrendered.

Then and only then will I be able to ascend the hill of the Lord.

Psalm 24 v 3-5

Who shall ascend into the hill of Jehovah?

And who shall stand in his holy place?

He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto falsehood, and hath not sworn deceitfully. He shall receive a blessing from Jehovah, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Here we are asked two questions who can ascend the hill of Jehovah, who can stand in his Holy Mountain.

It then tells you who can he who has clean hands and a pure heart.

He will receive a blessing from Jehovah and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Have you got clean hands and a pure heart can you can ascend the hill of Jehovah and stand in his Holy Mountain.

We have come out of Egypt but we are not in the Promised Land.

We are on the wrong side of the river. That why the Church is being defeated that's why are not living a victorious Christian life.

Let’s be honest!
Where are we? Are we living victorious Christian lives? Are we doing the greater works Jesus said we would? (when was the last time you feed 5000 people) Has your life been supernaturally altered? Does your life make it easy for others to believe in the Lord? Are we experiencing revival? (Even though we’ve been praying for years)

Let’s be honest!
Are we the lukewarm church of Revelation 3:16, 17 thinking we are rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing…but are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked?

We are in a state of UNREALITY – DENIAL – DECEPTION?

There DOUBT – DISCOURAGEMENT – DESPAIR and even DEPARTURE (backsliding)?

We “have a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof” (2 Timothy 3:5)?

Let’s be honest, real, and bold, and admit – Satan has robbed the church of a vital truth for 50 - 100 years or so

What is the answer a life of holiness through which God could work.

R
RobertW

What is the answer a life of holiness through which God could work.

The trouble with all of our questions is that we all pour different meanings into our terms. When I hear 'holiness' I think of the word as used here in ultra holiness circles here in Missouri. Where I am from a cuss word 5 seconds before death can send a soul to hell after 50 years of victorious service. I am not joking.

The problem also is that folk like to preach a holiness focusing on their own personal areas of victory to the exclusion of weak areas of their life. They are hard on some things and ignore others.

What exhaserbates all this is that we are being fed a constant diet of the most radical forms of Christianity that taken together are impossible to reconcile- even for our LORD. If one listens to many preachers from a variety of sources they get the notion that one may need to spend hours a day with God. Listen to others and they will tell you you must work hard from dusk till dawn. Others will tell you to love your wife as Christ loved the Church and must spend plenty of time with her. Others focus on stewardship of posessions. Others on servant ministry. Others on devotions. In other words, what ever they like to focus on.

Someone please tell me where the man is that prays 3 hours a day, works from dusk till dawn, travels the country preaching and holding meetings, spends plenty of time with his wife and family (especially training his children to quote the Psalms and Proverbs from memory at 5 years old), has a much time in the word of God, visits the sick and shows piety to his family first (folk with genuine needs in your family), visits the fatherless and widows and prisoners, gives his body the food and rest it needs so as not to abuse it as the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and at the same time is not being charged with slothfulness because they do not have a job. Add to that they must take care of the upkeep of their business and possessions so as to be a good steward of the things God has blessed them with.

Look long and hard- they do not exist. And this is the folly of an immoderate life. This is Wesley, James Dobson, Praying Hyde, Leonard Ravenhill, Mother Theresa, Bob Villa, and others all rolled up into one. Simply put, God does not expect it.

B
broclint

Brother Murray,

Thank you for your posts. I am all for the pursuit of a revival of holiness, and appreciate so much the preaching of Leonard Ravenhill and Keith Daniels regarding that pursuit.

Brother David,

David, I suppose that you and I will have to differ on Paul’s condition regarding the statement “chief of sinners”. I certainly do not believe that Paul would hypocritically call upon followers to imitate him, and call for their perfection, and their ceasing from sin if he were still a captive himself.

Hopefully we are not as far apart as it would seem from the posts. Yours are somewhat cryptic, and mine go into, I suppose, more detail than necessary, but I do not want the post misunderstood.

As to the articles of the temple and so forth…. Certainly they were to be holy… but then just as now, they were not always so. The responsibility fell upon the priests and the Levites to “keep” them holy, We, as the verse you cited from Peter regarding a royal priesthood and an holy nation makes my point… WE are to be priests to this world, and that is all the more reason that we are to “sanctify ourselves” even as He has sanctified us (made us holy).
Leviticus 11:44 (KJV) 44For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (See also Lev. 20:7-8

When you look at the Old Testament from which you took your illustration the theme is constantly one in which God sanctifies and in turn the priests are told to sanctify themselves. The same is true of all the vessels. The same was true for the temple itself.


Haggai 2:12 - 14 (KJV) 12If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No. 13Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean. 14Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith the LORD; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean.


Leviticus 22:2 (KJV) 2Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, that they separate themselves from the holy things of the children of Israel, and that they profane not my holy name in those things which they hallow unto me: I am the LORD.


Leviticus 22:15 - 16 (KJV) 15And they shall not profane the holy things of the children of Israel, which they offer unto the LORD; 16Or suffer them to bear the iniquity of trespass, when they eat their holy things: for I the LORD do sanctify them.

Ezekiel 22:8 (KJV) 8Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.


Ezekiel 22:26 (KJV) 26Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they showed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.


Ezekiel 23:39 (KJV) 39For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.


Ezekiel 44:23 (KJV) 23And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.


Zephaniah 3:4 (KJV) 4Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law.

Long post again, sorry… but the point is (and there are plenty of New Testament scriptures that teach the same thing) that anything that God has called holy can be contaminated by sin. It can be defiled. The scripture from 2 Corinthians that I cited shows the balance:
2 Corinthians 7:1 (KJV) 1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The promises being what he referred to earlier in the previous chapter that begins:
2 Corinthians 6:1 (KJV) 1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

I do not believe as one of the posts says that those on this thread are antinomian, but again knowing that so many read these threads, I certainly do not want to discount any pursuit of holiness. And again, no offense intended, but to simply give the cop out, “there is no one the lives without sin” does not help. The question when you look in the New Testament at all the admonitions is “why not?” Jesus came to save His people from their sins! When you look up all the occurrences of the root ἅγιος, in the New Testament in all its forms, sanctified, saints, sanctify, holy, holiness, and etc. you literally cannot find a page without it. If we are to have revival, it certainly must begin with making a difference between the holy and profane. It certainly is not going to be rooted in excuses but in examination. If the Lord said, and He did, that if our hand or eye or whatever causes us to sin, cut it off… then just how serious is this thing of self-denial and crucifixion of self?

God help us all to get on the same page and fight our common enemy and make no peace with it until it is killed.

T
tjservant

The trouble with all of our questions is that we all pour different meanings into our terms. When I hear 'holiness' I think of the word as used here in ultra holiness circles here in Missouri. Where I am from a cuss word 5 seconds before death can send a soul to hell after 50 years of victorious service. I am not joking.

Thank you for your post Robert. As for the word "holiness" this has been my past experience as well.

Also many posts and threads here on SI suffer from lack of unification of terms. I have seen many debates/arguments that seem like the participants are trying to say the same thing and lack the "proper terms" to reach any understandable agreement.

H
hmmhmm

"holiness apart from Christ is heresy" K.Daniel

"God expects us to walk as little Christs wile we are here upon earth" Ravenhill


I believe Gods will for us, and scripture says so, is that we walk as Christ walked. Separated from this world and our own will, and in everything doing Gods will. Isent this holiness?

P
psalm1

Broclint , I am not trying in any way to minimise holiness in anyone.
It seems for me to take issue in the extreme[those claiming sinless perfection] is to demolish ,in your mind,any leaning I might have to properly represent my king.
I dont know how in the world a mature saint can possibly do anything but live a pure and holy life.
This is just basic Christianity.
But at the same time I take issue with a doctrine that produces holy puppets that cannot see their own pride and arrogance toward their "lesser" brethren.
This is the subtlety Peter was caught up in unbeknownst to himself.

I have been in two churches that espoused this doctrine.

It became a no-brainer to me that this produced something unlike Jesus.

The nicolaitan spirit is Hierarchy and competition.
Abusive leadership.

I believe taking on the holiness that is mine and spoken over me in no way hampers or excuses me from my obligation to live holy and pure before man and God.
I just think you have the cart before the horse.
You seem to think holiness is standing on your own sinless perfection and therefore you are holy.


That is why you object to any notion of sin in your life.
In your mind if sin exists the whole holy concept is voided.
I believe the bible teaches us that sin and God are vying for the same ground.
[the battlefield of the mind]
The hyper holy posture is conducive to other believers and almost becomes our banner.

The battle I'm in is for the souls of my heathen friends,and business associates.
I represent the king in front of them. I have to really really bite my tongue around them and most of all love them and let Jesus shine through me.
Their lost condition grates on me and grieves me and they WILL get saved if it hair lips every demon in hell.

Now do they need holiness or do they need the holy one?


David

M
murrcolr

What Holiness in Not

Holiness is not a state of freedom from temptation. This is a world of trial, and conflict with principalities and powers, darkness’s and terrible evils, and the soul who is in the forefront of the conflict may expect the fiercest assaults of the devil. Jesus was tried and tempted for forty days and forty nights of the devil, and the servant must not be surprised if he is as his Master.

Paul tells us that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, and that He is able to support us when we are tempted. It is no sin to be tempted; in fact, the Apostle James tells us to rejoice when we are subjected to all manner of temptations for the resulting trial of our faith will produce in us strength and force of holy character, so that we shall be lacking in nothing (Jas. i. 2-4).

Holiness is not a state of freedom from infirmities. It does not produce a perfect head, but rather a perfect heart! The saints have always been compassed about with infirmities that have proved a source of great trial. Paul had a thorn in the flesh, an infirmity, a messenger of Satan to buffet him. It was an infirmity which he longed to be rid of; doubtless feeling that it interfered with his usefulness, and three times he prayed to the Lord for deliverance, but instead of getting the prayed-for deliverance, the Lord said to him, 'My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness' (2 Cor. xii. 9).

Then Paul cried out, 'Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong' (2 Cor. xii. 9-10)

Holiness is not a state of freedom from affliction. The saints of all ages have been chosen 'in the furnace of affliction' . Job and Jeremiah and Daniel and Paul and the mighty army of martyrs have, and shall always, come up through great tribulations. That would not develop strength of character, nor cultivate simplicity and purity of heart: nor in that case could we really know Jesus, and the fellowship of His sufferings. It is in the furnace of fire, the lion's den, and the dungeon cell that He most freely reveals Himself to His people.

Holiness is not a state in which there is no further development. When the heart is purified it develops more rapidly than ever before. Spiritual development comes through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the heart, and the holy soul is in a condition to receive such revelations constantly, and since the finite can never exhaust the infinite, these revelations will continue for ever and prove an increasing and never-ending source of development

Holiness is not a state from which we cannot fall. Paul tells us that we stand by faith (Rom. xi. 16-22), and he says, 'Let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall' (I Cor. x. 12). It is an unscriptural and dangerous doctrine that there is any state of grace in this world from which we cannot fall. Probation does not end the moment we believe on Jesus, but rather the moment we quit the body. It is only those who endure to the end who shall be saved

M
murrcolr

What actually is Holiness?

With Entire Sanctification or the Clean Heart comes the reality of living a holy life, but to understand what holiness is we need to ask two questions.

Who is Holy?.........................................God is Holy
What has God not got - but man has?.....Sin

Conclusion:
Holiness is a state where there is no sin

“The Bible tells us that holiness is perfect deliverance from sin - ‘the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin’ 1 John 1:7

Thus, holiness is a state in which there is no longer malice, blasphemy, hypocrisy, envy, love of ease, selfish desires for good opinion of men, shame of the cross, worldliness, deceit, contention, covetousness nor any evil desire or tendency in the heart. It is a state in which there is no longer any doubt or fear, a state in which God is loved and trusted with a perfect heart. It is a state of heart and life which consists in being and doing all the time – just what God wants us to do.”

There is no such thing as holiness apart from Him (Jesus). He is our sanctification.

Sanctification is allowing the perfections of Jesus to express themselves through your personality.”


“Being set free from sin – ye have fruit unto holiness” Romans 6:22

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does it mean to be holy?

Let’s look at the Greek word used in the New Testament, which is translated as either Holiness or Sanctification.

HAGIASMOS = a setting apart for, and to God, and a setting apart from the world, sin and the devil

“Holiness is a state of being set apart for a Holy use, separated to the service of God” J. G. Govan – Spirit of Revival.

“Although the word ‘sanctified’ is not synonymous with the word ‘cleanse’, it must pre-suppose or include cleansing, as an unclean vessel could not be entirely set apart to God’s service”, writes John G Govan in his booklet ‘Sanctified and Kept’

“Create in me a clean heart O God,” cried David in Psalm 51:10

God is holy and He commands his people to be holy by which He means, we are to be set apart for Him alone, being made pure in heart and free from sin.

B
broclint

Brother David,

Point well taken, as with Brother Robert's post while I was typing mine.

As I said, I do not believe we are as far apart as it would seem from mere words... just wanted to clarify a few things.

I do not believe in getting the horse before the cart. I KNOW we have no righteousness, no holiness, no help, and no hope without Christ and without it being through Christ.

As for the holiness is whether you do thus and so, or do not do thus and so... I know full well that it cannot be legislated nor can it be from the outside in. My emphasis is just against this, (in my area at least), "we can't help it, we're gonna do it" mentality that doesn't even try. Instead of "in the world and not of it", it is full of the world and sin and don't dare try to judge me... with no fruit that in anyway indicates a change of heart and a change of direction.

I agree fully that it is the soul's of men on their way to hell that is the most important issue, but I also know that the world is watching and for those who see the "Christian" using the same set of values that they do, then it is like the Lord said, those standing at the door not going in and hindering those who would from entering. For those who are alcoholics, drug addicts, pornographers, and etc. they have to "see" that God can deliver folks from sin, or else they have no hope.

God bless you brother in your pursuit of souls.

Clint

R
RobertW

Holiness is not a state in which there is no further development. When the heart is purified it develops more rapidly than ever before.

I do not necessarily disagree with this; however, if a person is in a lesser stage of development are we to say sin is not sin to them? Are we thinking that if they knew more about Christ then they would be more like Him?

It has been my express experience that the more I learned of Christ and the word of God- not the more perfect I became- but the farther I realised I was from the person of Jesus Christ. There are times when a person can run well; but under time of intese trial and temptation things happen to shed light on our need of Christ and forgiveness. Case in point, 2007 was such a year of trial for me- I come away wondering how I ever thought I was such a strong Christian. Much of our experience is based on circumstances- given the right circumstances we find out who we really are. ;-) 12 months in a bad fire and we may well wonder if we ever knew Christ at all.

P
PaulWest

It has been my express experience that the more I learned of Christ and the word of God- not the more perfect I became- but the farther I realised I was from the person of Jesus Christ.

A grand truth, and one painfully realized. I have found that the more I learn of God - that is, the more spiritually adroit I become in His Word with more and more light entering my mind, the more despairing I then become in sensing my utter lack, my horrid unchristlikeness, my insumountable failures, my spots and wrinkles and shortcomings. The more I grow in God, the more I see myself diminsh as a total broken-down wreck and also the greater the efficacy and worth of Christ's blood is magnified in my life. The Word of God is a mirror, a looking-glass, and the more clear the reflection it gives me, the more grotesque the image staring back at me becomes.

H
hmmhmm

an interesting thing about the apostle Paul, i heard this but in the order in witch he wrote his letters he became also more aware of his sin

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

he was still in his own eyes an apostle, that is quite good....

later he writes

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

some years later he has grown and realized he is least of the saints, still a saint thou...that is still good

and when he almost finished his race he writes

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


he now sees himself as the worst of all the sinners.... i hope i got the chronology right


:-P


so if we follow in Pauls footsteps we should in our own eyes become greater sinners, the closer Jesus we come the more light we receive and we see more clearly

T
Tears_of_joy

Further on...

2Co 12:11 I have become a fool in boasting;* you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though [b]I am nothing[/b].

R
RobertW

if we follow in Pauls footsteps we should in our own eyes become greater sinners, the closer Jesus we come the more light we receive and we see more clearly

I think also it is the slow process of the reality of the horror and consequences of his own sins upon society through the eyes of a changed man. I at times reflect upon how my sins have caused pain and suffering. It is a most horrible thought and gripping event. I wonder if Paul could still hear the screams of moms and dads as their children were pulled away from them when they would not renounce Christ? Maybe it didn't happen that way- maybe they just wept as they wondered what would come of their family? This is the 'present distress' Paul so keenly spoke of wth such light and wisdom. He knew first hand because he once was an agent of that distress. What horrifying memories must have raced across his mind at times?! I believe when he said he was chief among sinners he believed it as a sure reality.

M
murrcolr

Some people imagine that Paul tells his best religious experience in Romans 7 v 24, when he cries out, 'O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?' But the fact is, he is here describing his condition under the law, when as a convicted sinner, the law showed him what he ought to do, but brought no power to deliver him from his guilty past and the corruptions of his own heart.

However, in the eighth chapter he finds the secret of deliverance from the condemnation of the past and the Carnal mind, which prevent his doing the will of God on earth.

From that point he rises to such marvelous testimonies as, 'I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live -- I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me' (Gal. 2 V 20). And through a consecration in which he counted all things loss for Christ and a faith by which he reckoned himself 'dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord'

H
hmmhmm

This is a must watch! this weeks sermon from Zac Poonen [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=122&date=08_02&title=New+Covenant+Truths+%3A+%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B7.+Overcoming+Temptation]Overcoming Temptation[/url]

a real good word and very timley for me, and fits right in here

M
murrcolr

hmmhmm said;
This is a must watch! this weeks sermon from Zac Poonen Overcoming Temptation

a real good word and very timley for me, and fits right in here
-----------------------------------------------

A must to watch if you have been following this thread. If you are new to thread read all the post then listen to this.

1 Peter 2 v 21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps, Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Follow his steps who did no sin.

L
LiveforGod

Brothers: How can anybody say they have been born of God and still do the works of the flesh?

What are the works of the Flesh? Aren't them sin.

Did't Christ Die and in the third day resurect so that we may not live in the Flesh but in the Spirit?

Do you still live in the flesh? Then if you still live in the flesh, then of course you will not be able to please God. You just can't. For it says in Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Then further on Scripture says: "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Romans 8: 13

So why then do you keep living in the flesh? Why do you then try to live holly being in the Flesh?
The truth is that in the flesh please God, but thank God there is an alternative, To Live in the Spirt.

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." Romans 8:9a.

So how can you have the Spirit of God and still live in the Flesh?

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9b.

So the reason why you can not live a holly life is because you have not the Spirit of God living in you. Because if you had the Spirit of God living in you then you would not live in the Flesh, but in the Spirit. Amen

"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." 1 John 3:24

So how can you say that you dwell in God, yet still not keep his commandments? Is not sin the braking of God's Commandment? Yes, Sin is the braking of God's commandments.

Now, dear reader, after knowing all of that, Wouldn't you like to live in The Spirit, and thus mortify the deeds of the body?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"You are as Holly as you gant to be"


T
tjservant

I have found that the more I learn of God - that is, the more spiritually adroit I become in His Word with more and more light entering my mind, the more despairing I then become in sensing my utter lack, my horrid unchristlikeness, my insumountable failures, my spots and wrinkles and shortcomings. The more I grow in God, the more I see myself diminsh as a total broken-down wreck and also the greater the efficacy and worth of Christ's blood is magnified in my life. The Word of God is a mirror, a looking-glass, and the more clear the reflection it gives me, the more grotesque the image staring back at me becomes.

This is so true brother Paul…so true. Yet I am drawn to this light…this very light that shows me my complete inadequacy in all things also shows me my salvation. Praise be to God…He sent His son for me!

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling.


Thank you brother Paul…the Puritans speak through you.

M
murrcolr

It is essential that we understand this to enable us to apprehend the ‘workings’ of Entire Sanctification and how to obtain it. Here is a danger zone concerning interpretation, and Satan has capitalised on it by bringing confusion over the old man, the old self and the crucified life.

Paul clearly shows us in these verses in Romans 7 that the ‘I’ or ‘Self’ is something different from the Sin Nature.

It was the Old Man, the sin nature, that was crucified on the cross ‘with Him’ Romans 6:6b – not ‘Self’. The crucified dying-to-self-life has to be applied (our part) before the Lord can deliver us from the Sin Nature (His part).

Step1 old man is crucified with him on the cross. (Edit Had to get it right)
Step2 The crucified dying-to-self-life. (Our Part)
Step3 Lord will deliver us from the Sin Nature

Here is one further observation I would like you to consider concerning this amazing verse of Romans 6:6. Note that it does not say, “…that the body of sin will be destroyed” – it uses the word ‘might’, possibly suggesting that the body of sin – the rotting corpse – may or may not be destroyed. This questionable suggestion, prompted by the word ‘might’, is echoed in the writings of Hebrews 12:10 and 2 Peter 1:4 where the word ‘might’ is used again:

“For He chasteneth us for our part…that we might be partakers of His holiness (the state)”

“Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature.”

Incidentally, all three scriptures are written to believers indicating there’s a deeper work to be done in the soul (Entire Sanctification) than at initial conversion.

Can we deduce that the determining factor as to whether we can be partakers of ‘His holiness’ and the ‘divine nature’ is whether or not the body of sin is destroyed? I personally think so.

Returning then to Romans 6:6, what is the determining factor causing the body of sin to be destroyed or not? – Us and our response! It is our responsibility as to whether we keep it or not. No wonder Satan, the thief, has kept this knowledge from the Body of Christ in these last days!


This is a must watch! this weeks sermon from Zac Poonen Overcoming Temptation
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=122&date=08_02&title=New+Covenant+Truths+%3A+%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B7.+Overcoming+Temptation

C
ChrisJD

Hi murrcolr, how are you?


Murrcolr,

"1 Peter 2 v 21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps, Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:


Follow his steps who did no sin."


Isn't the context here about suffering patiently though(v20)?


I noticed also though, that besides being without sin Peter also said the Lord was without guile. I was reminded of what the Lord said here


[b][color=660000] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]

- John chapter 8 verse 26(KJV)

Maybe we should consider this also, if we are to compare ourselves with the Lord of Glory?


Take care,

Chris

S
SimpleLiving

by hmmhmm on 2008/2/1 15:58:37

This is a must watch! this weeks sermon from Zac Poonen Overcoming Temptation

a real good word and very timley for me, and fits right in here

I just finished listening to this and must agree with you, brother. This is meat for those who want to grow mature in Christ. It will knock down every excuse for sinning you could come up with. I was truly blessed by it. Thank you.

H
hmmhmm

yes, i also though this was really good word, especially that part that i to have been guilty of.

"stop blaming your wife or your sinful nature, take the blame like a man, say to God I did it"

how many times have i blamed something else! just like Adam...

D
davyman

I've read through this post and I am intrigued by it. I confess that I do sin, I hate that I continue to offend the Holy One who laid down His life for me, but I do sin. When a brother (I assume he's a brother because he has a Jesus fish on his bumper) cuts me off in traffic, I don't automatically forgive him, I get angry. That is a sin. There are many examples of this in my daily life: I don't acknowledge God's providence when I stop for a quick burger at the drive-thru, I covet the new Macbook Air, I listen to Rush Limbaugh rather than Christian teaching, etc. I can say at the end of the day "wretched man that I am!"

I can be like Luther prior to his conversion and spend countless hours confessing sin after sin. Or I can bring my flesh to the cross and beat my breast, and refuse to turn my eye to heaven and say "forgive me, the sinner."

Here's my take on the whole holiness thing. John tells us "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1John 1:8). Huh, I deceive myself if I say I have perfect holiness. I continue to sin even in my Christian walk, but how can I be saved since God says "be holy for I am holy?" "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"(1John 1:9). It is the work of Christ that cleanses me from ALL unrighteousness. So, now that I am cleansed, I can walk a perfectly holy life? "If we say that we have not sinned , we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1:10). No! Now if I say I am sinless, I make God out to be a liar! Oh, what danger lies in this!

I know I am turning back to scriptures we all learned in our infancy of our new life, but the truths hold true. I also believe that the believers life evidences Jesus. We are not perfected here, but we are called to run the race, to persevere in the Spirit. There is a holiness that is evidenced by the church invisible. Sadly, today it is not as evidenced by the church visible.

I will pursue Christ, he has promised to make me holy. I will set my mind on the things of heaven, he will reward me with his righteousness. But, when I am sitting in front of the boob tube, drinking in all the carnal pleasures it has to offer, I won't consider myself holy.

SDG,

Dave

M
murrcolr

ChrisJD said;

Murrcolr,

"1 Peter 2 v 21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps, Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:


Follow his steps who did no sin."


Isn't the context here about suffering patiently though(v20)?
-----------------------------------------------

The message speaks how God became a man as a example for us to follow. He came to show us the way. That when he was tempted in all areas and over came the temptation to sin.

He was a example come take up your cross and follow me he said.

Through all his suffering and temptation everything he went through.

He did not sin.

He came to show us the way.

It would help if you listen to Zac Poonen Overcoming Temptation he will explain it for you.

Thanks again Hmmmmmmm

http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=122&date=08_02&title=New+Covenant+Truths+%3A+%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B7.+Overcoming+Temptation
------------------------------------------------

The song in my heart today

There is power, power, wonder working power
In the blood of the Lamb;
There is power, power, wonder working power
In the precious blood of the Lamb.

Would you be free from your passion and pride?
There’s power in the blood, power in the blood;
Come for a cleansing to Calvary’s tide;
There’s wonderful power in the blood.

Would you be whiter, much whiter than snow?
There’s power in the blood, power in the blood;
Sin stains are lost in its life giving flow.
There’s wonderful power in the blood.

Would you do service for Jesus your King?
There’s power in the blood, power in the blood;
Would you live daily His praises to sing?
There’s wonderful power in the blood.

M
murrcolr

davyman said;

Here's my take on the whole holiness thing. John tells us "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1John 1:8). Huh, I deceive myself if I say I have perfect holiness. I continue to sin even in my Christian walk, but how can I be saved since God says "be holy for I am holy?" "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"(1John 1:9). It is the work of Christ that cleanses me from ALL unrighteousness. So, now that I am cleansed, I can walk a perfectly holy life? "If we say that we have not sinned , we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1:10). No! Now if I say I am sinless, I make God out to be a liar! Oh, what danger lies in this!
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“The Scriptures depict sanctification as both a process and an event. That is to say, Christians by grace and obedience will grow in holiness, but there is a time when the soul encounters God and wrestles with this matter of inward purity. This is known as a crisis experience, that is, a critical juncture in spiritual life when the Holy Spirit, desirous to take the believer deeper and higher in the walk with Christ, convicts the believer of the need for inner purity. When God grants that purity, the time and place' are just as knowable and recordable as one's experience of salvation.

Hence the word "instantaneous" was associated with the experience, for although there was a process of sanctification leading up to it, and an ongoing process after the event, there was an "instant" when God the Holy Spirit made the heart pure and sin-free. Because this crisis experience was almost always subsequent to a believer's salvation, it quickly garnered additional sobriquets, including "the second blessing," "the second work of grace," and even "crisis sanctification.”

The Greek word, in verse 14 of Hebrews 12, translated holiness or sanctification, is different from the Greek word in verse 10, which is also translated as holiness.

“Follow after holiness/sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord.” Hebrews 12:14

“For whom the Lord loveth, He chastiseth… that we might be partakers of His holiness” Hebrews 12:10

Hebrews 12:14 is Hagiasmos which means - the process of sanctification

Hebrews 12:10 is Hagiotes which means - the state of holiness (God’s state of holiness)

Sanctification is progressive and gradual in its preparation, but instantaneous in its reception. Sometimes God saves and sanctifies a person in the spirit and soul together at conversion. This frequently happened in genuine Revivals.

There is much evidence in God’s word of this purpose for us—not just to be saved and justified, but also to GO ON…

“….that we might be filled with all the fullness of God” Ephesians 3:19 and
“….let us go on to perfection.” Hebrews 6:1
enjoying the state of “FULL SALVATION” / “ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION”

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The process of Sanctification begins where Step 1………..

Divine nature is restored as the Holy Spirit indwells our spirit and we are clean and sanctified in the spirit part of our makeup. We receive imputed righteousness ‘because we have believed’. ‘But believe on Him… his faith is counted for righteousness” Romans 4:5 To impute is to reckon/regard/count. The Greek word for all of these words is Logizomai. See Romans 4:5 & 22-24 and Psalm 32:1-2

This imputed righteousness is the legal position of a believer based on Jesus work on Calvary.
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THE PROCESS OF SANCTIFICATION Step 2………….(Hebrews 12:14)

Sanctification continues as we yield to God, crucify the flesh and ‘lose our life’ (Mark 8:34-35)_- the battle between ‘the flesh’ and ‘the spirit’

“…reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God.” Philippians 3:13-14

‘Working out our salvation with fear and trembling’ - Philippians 2:12

“Follow after sanctification without which no one shall see the Lord” Hebrews 12:14

“For now is our salvation nearer than when we believed” Romans 13:11

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THE STATE OF SANCTIFICATION Step 3………….. (Hebrews 12:10)

Full Salvation - Entire Sanctification - A Clean Heart – The Second Blessing!

“Receiving the end of your faith – even the salvation of your soul” 1 Peter 1:9

“I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness” Jeremiah 31:14

“…He chastiseth…that we might be partakers of holiness” Hebrews 12:10 We receive ‘imparted righteousness’ when the life of Jesus comes from the spirit to the soul after the sin nature is destroyed To ‘impart’ means to have a share of, or a part of.

This ‘imparted righteousness’ is he ‘experience, or state of a believer “…that we might be filled with all the fullness of God” Ephesians 3:19 “….. for they shall be filled” Matthew 5:6

Both the doctrine and the experience of Christian Sanctification are of unspeakably sacred importance to every Christian; and it is my hope that at least some who read may, with clarified understanding, “go up” and “possess” the promised “inheritance” with its “fullness of blessing.”

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DUNCAN CAMPBELL
Faith Mission Evangelist
Excerpts from Duncan Campbell’s Testimony of Sanctification

From cassette ‘Reality of Divine in Christian Experience’

‘I was on the battlefield, bleeding and thinking I was dying. I was conscious of a need -oh! I knew I was saved, but I also knew that nothing unclean could enter (heaven). I knew that ‘Without holiness no man shall see the Lord’ and I felt unholy. Oh, the carnal mind and the corrupt heart that cried for deliverance and cleansing! On that horses back believing that I was dying, I cried, “God make me as holy as a saved sinner can be.”

You may not believe in a second definite work of grace to the soul, but I believe it and I believe it is taught in the word of God, and I agree with Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones who said recently that “the man who says you get everything at conversion is teaching error,” and he is one of the greatest theologians in Britain today.

On that horse’s back it happened! Right into my life - down through the avenues of my personality into the chambers where polluted sin held it’s empire. A power was there to defy and deny every good operating principle in my life - a power rested within that was more than a match for me.

God swept in and brought deliverance and cleansing and a power in the Holy Ghost that I had never known before! I tasted the moving of Revival back at the casualty clearing station where seven Canadian soldiers got gloriously saved without me speaking a word they could understand! Oh He can cleanse! Make much of the blood of Jesus. The blood can cleanse from ALL SIN! What a deliverer! That experience
revolutionised my life! Thank God for an experience which brings emancipation (from sin)!’

Extract from ‘Duncan Campbell A Biography’ by Andrew Woolsey

‘His cry for deliverance from the corruption around was eclipsed by the cry for deliverance from the enemy within. He waited for God and the moment of deliverance came. Grieved that he had accomplished so little for the Saviour, he recalled a hymn often sung at family worshiphip: ‘Must I go and empty-handed, Must I meet my Saviour so?’ It seemed that was how he was now going to meet Him and he was still more
concerned about the state of his soul.’ Then the prayer of Robert Murray McCheyne flashed into his mind: ‘Lord, make me as holy as a saved sinner can be.’ Duncan prayed it again in an agony of earnestness. Instantly the power of God possessed him. Like a purging fire the Holy Spirit swept through his personality, bringing cleansing and renewal until ‘at that moment I felt as pure as an angel’.

D
daniel-

Dear murrcolr,


I have asked you twice if you would testify about your own experience of entire sanctification and how your inward life looked since. Could you please share this testimony of yours?

Daniel

S
sermonindex


Amen to that hymn, Murray!


Hello ChrisJD,

I hope you are well?

You said

if we are to compare ourselves with the Lord of Glory
I know that was part of a question, but my comments are alternative to answering it as a question.

I'm not sure whether you are saying we should, or we should not, [i]compare[/i] ourselves with the Lord of Glory, because of the 'if' with which you preface the thought. But, I wanted to answer negatively, on the basis that we are supposed to be thinking of ourselves as [i]one[/i] with Him. For, we are told by Christ Himself, (John 15), to abide (rest) [u]in[/u] Him. There, we find the place where fruit-bearing finds the acknowledgement of the vinedresser, and [i]we also[/i] receive satisfaction for the travail of [i]our[/i] souls.

I believe the weight of New Testament scripture permits us to [i]believe[/i] rest [u]in[/u] Christ is not only possible, but mandatory. The Holy Spirit has come [u]in[/u] to our lives to [i]help[/i] us wrestle down and overcome every contrary latent or active inclination or pursuit, and as we co-operate with Him whole-heartedly, God sees us in Christ.

These thoughts are compatible with many others in the New Testament. This discussion is not really going about whether the word of God works the way He says it does - and we [i]therefore[/i] bow to [u]His[/u] declarations of justification, instant sanctification, righteousness and on-going glorification as we look into the face of Jesus Christ. Is it?

S
sermonindex


I am wondering if there is anyone participating in this thread who believes 1 John 1:7?


[i][color=0000FF]But if we walk in the light, [b]as he is in the light[/b], we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/i][/color]

I ask, because I heard Percy Gutteridge say an interesting thing in his talk 'Father of Lights': that [i]to take up one's cross daily, is to walk in the light[/i].

[url=http://parbarwestward.org/Audio/Percy_Gutteridge/The_Father_Of_Lights.php]Father of Lights[/url]

This is part of a series called 'The Gospel of Glory'.

S
sermonindex

It would follow, then, that the person who is [u]consciously doing everything in God's presence[/u], [i]is being cleansed from all unrighteousness[/i] [u]at the same time[/u] and therefore, [i]is able[/i] to claim - without deceit [i]or self[/i]-deceit - not only the imputed holiness of Christ through justification by faith, but imparted holiness by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as there can be nothing [i]wrong[/i]-spiritual (sinful) present at the same time, which God's continuous presence does not blot out [u]in truth[/u].

There [u]is[/u] a resurrection life for us to live.

Either I believe that I died in Christ, or I don't.

Either I believe God has sent His Holy Spirit to help me overcome sins which crop up in the outworking of my life, or, I don't believe it.

[u]This[/u] is the matter to settle in our hearts, [i]first[/i].


I find, by walking in newness of life, I am forced to acknowledge that [u]He[/u] has indeed ratified that [i]I am dead[/i]. Or, I would be making Him a liar.

[color=0000FF]1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.[/color]

[color=0000FF]John 16
... if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world [u]is judged[/u].


Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.[/color]


There is a work to be done, perhaps, to judge whether we are hearing the voice of condemnation, or, conviction of sin, but it gets easier with practise, and the beauty of asking the question, is that [i]either way[/i] to make a conscious re-affirmation of walking in 'the light as He is in the light' cannot fail to make us clean again, if that's what's lacking.


[color=0000FF]Zechariah 3
1 And he shewed me Joshua [Jesus] the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the LORD said unto Satan, 'The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [i]is[/i] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?'

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, 'Take away the filthy garments from him'.

And unto him he said, 'Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment'.

5 And I said, 'Let them set a fair mitre upon his head'. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by. [/color]

We need to [u]believe[/u] the word of God first and foremost.

C
crsschk

Let’s be honest!
Where are we? Are we living victorious Christian lives? Are we doing the greater works Jesus said we would? (when was the last time you feed 5000 people) Has your life been supernaturally altered? Does your life make it easy for others to believe in the Lord? Are we experiencing revival? (Even though we’ve been praying for years)

Some people imagine that Paul tells his best religious experience in Romans 7 v 24, when he cries out, 'O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?' But the fact is, he is here describing his condition under the law, when as a convicted sinner, the law showed him what he ought to do, but brought no power to deliver him from his guilty past and the corruptions of his own heart.

However, in the eighth chapter he finds the secret of deliverance from the condemnation of the past and the Carnal mind, which prevent his doing the will of God on earth.

Rom 7:23 But I see another [u]law[/u] in my members, [b]warring against[/b] the [u]law of my mind[/u], and bringing me into captivity to the [u]law of sin[/u] which [b]is in[/b] my members.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then [b]with the mind[/b] I myself serve the [u]law of God[/u]; but with the [b]flesh[/b] the [u]law of sin[/u].

I understand well enough the point or counter points to this. Maybe this word, 'deliverance' is the hinge and hangup of all our troubles. To what degree [i]delivered[/i]? Partially, completely? Abolished? At earthly death's end?

If we look at this, the 'law of sin', that which the flesh serves is not eradicated and neither do I find it something that we are delivered from. Hang on to your hat a moment ...

Something very challenging that was brought up by Philologos awhile back was a differentiating of what was entailed in the 'who' or 'what' of the "Old Man". He termed this the "Ancient man" as the man of Adam, of that nature, the Adamic nature if you will. Now, I don't want to do an injustice to what he meant but this is my understanding of it. That 'Old man\\Ancient man' is not [b]you[/b] but in essence Adam and by extension his nature that we are made up of.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our [b]old man[/b] is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

[b]Rom 6:6 -
Our old man is crucified with him[/b]
- This seems to be a farther extension of the same metaphor. When a seed is planted in the earth, it appears as if the whole body of it perished. All seeds, as they are commonly termed, are composed of two parts; the germ, which contains the rudiments of the future plant; and the lobes, or body of the seed, which by their decomposition in the ground, become the first nourishment to the extremely fine and delicate roots of the embryo plant, and support it till it is capable of deriving grosser nourishment from the common soil. The body dies that the germ may live. Parables cannot go on all fours; and in metaphors or figures, there is always some one (or more) remarkable property by which the doctrine intended is illustrated. To apply this to the purpose in hand: how is the principle of life which Jesus Christ has implanted in us to be brought into full effect, vigor, and usefulness? By the destruction of the body of sin, our old man, our wicked, corrupt, and fleshly self, is to be crucified; to be as truly slain as Christ was crucified; that our souls may as truly be raised from a death of sin to a life of righteousness, as the body of Christ was raised from the grave, and afterwards ascended to the right hand of God. But how does this part of the metaphor apply to Jesus Christ? Plainly and forcibly. Jesus Christ took on him a body; a body in the likeness of sinful flesh, Rom_8:3; and gave up that body to death; through which death alone an atonement was made for sin, and the way laid open for the vivifying Spirit, to have the fullest access to, and the most powerful operation in, the human heart. Here, the body of Christ dies that he may be a quickening Spirit to mankind. Our body of sin is destroyed by this quickening Spirit, that henceforth we should live unto Him who died and rose again. Thus the metaphor, in all its leading senses, is complete, and applies most forcibly to the subject in question. We find that παλαιος ανθρωπος, the old man, used here, and in Eph_4:22, and Col_3:9, is the same as the flesh with its affections and lusts, Gal_5:24; and the body of the sins of the flesh, Col_2:11; and the very same which the Jewish writers term אדם הקדמוני, Adam hakkadmoni, the old Adam; and which they interpret by יצר הרע yetsar hara, “evil concupiscence,” the same which we mean by indwelling sin, or the infection of our nature, in consequence of the fall. From all which we may learn that the design of God is to counterwork and destroy the very spirit and soul of sin, that we shall no longer serve it, δουλευειν, no longer be its slaves. Nor shall it any more be capable of performing its essential functions than a dead body can perform the functions of natural life.

~Adam Clarke

Rom 6:11 Likewise [b]reckon[/b] ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That word, reckon, was also something of an emphasis.

[b]G3049[/b]

λογίζομαι

logizomai

log-id'-zom-ahee

Middle voice from G3056; to take an inventory, that is, estimate (literally or figuratively): - conclude, (ac-) count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).

Taking all these things into consideration and the notice of what a metaphor can and cannot do ... What I do not find is the idea of complete 'deliverance' that is often suggested by the unfortunate chapter division or worse, the line in the sand drawn that makes this something of a past tense\\future tense construct.

It is where the whole of 'perfect' or perfection and 'holiness' are too cleanly cut and then further developed by something of a second work that finally 'finishes' off the 'old man' once and for all. The trouble with all of this is again in the confusion that is brought by definition as was well noted by others but even furthermore by just real, honest to God, rubber meets the road experience.

The reason I full well agree that Paul's wretched man is not something he once was but is in fact a present, continual and ongoing ...agony is because that very shared experience is borne out, time and again, despite the mind's dedicated service to the law of God. The flesh does what the flesh does and it craves that which it craves. It is not by some trick of the imagination that it goes away. [i]Reckon[/i] it 'dead' indeed, the "have to" of it's service is what we have opportunity, [i]through[/i] the Lord of denying and our allegiance is certainly to the 'other law' that we love, Gods law in all the variety if I may. David loved His law as it was just and pure and righteous. We have now the law of the spirit more fully expressed. The law of the Spirit, that which we are to walk in, the law of love and so on and so forth.

Trailing back to the 'have to' of it all is;

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If I may be ever so forthright and blunt here, I must wonder sometimes, it certainly can seem so, that there are times that have gone way over the ableness of bearing and yet why is that?

The flesh. The same flesh that some would have rendered dead and delivered, mis-termed as it is, once again finds itself rising from the dead and asserting itself. Yes, it is an over-stressing of the matter.

But is this true, that there is always an escape available? Absolutely. The trouble I have found in certain seasons or particular circumstances is frankly one of not wiling to suffer the crucifying of that same impulse, desire, what have you and right there is where I think the whole misconstruing of all of this is exactingly apparent; Crucifying. Crucifying involves [i]pain[/i]. And the flesh just does not like it and furthermore this is our work to do, to put to death the deeds of the [i]flesh[/i]... by crucifying them.

We could go about any number of accusations and\\or pressed upon guilt trips or even exhortations it seems. It certainly depends and [i]God forbid[/i] is always the adamant answer to presumption upon either the Lord or sin.

Our brother Paul, Robert, Christian others here have put forth some very important things. Hope this is also recognized as only a launching forth of the comments above, well into the generalities here.

This is really a break from a season of silence, maybe some shared, very recent and up to date experience is better an illustration. The last few weeks have been utterly ... devastating internally. This is a more incredible and deeper still ... dismantling of the fabric of soul than I have yet to experience. How much darker can the [i]Dark night of the soul[/i] be? Some of this has eked out elsewhere, in a Psalm and by expression Psalm 88, the Psalm that is left trailing in it's anguish. It is much of these very things, estrangement is a word, abandoned is another. "Take not Thy Spirit from me" has turned to wonder of will it ever return once again ...

Mountain to the gutter. October of 2007. The Revival Conference. That 4 year long, mysterious, incredible longing to be gathered with those that have long tarried here, finally face to face even though spiritually and actually there were no surprises, none what so ever, quite a remarkable thing to 'know' some of the Brethren in such a fashion that transposes such a setting as this. Don't over read that, much lacks, it just one aspect. Went with an anticipation of expectation, but that expectation is one that is more and more an expecting of the unexpected. If I could stress that so utterly into our hearts ... I have to launch off on it for a moment. This is where something cumulatively, across many posts, regarding prophetic things, regarding end times matters, regarding what is happening in the daily news, regarding any moment in any given situation, circumstance or season ... If I could literally spill out my guts and the marrow of what is in me, it would be just this, expect the unexpected with the Lord. I beg you with all that I am. Our imaginations can be used, I am afraid more towards fear and speculation than we know and that we often cause a great deal of fear by putting forth things in this manner, our hunches and reading the signs of the times, even our expectations of just what is before us day by day as we go to work or just about our daily lives. Expect to be surprised and you will not be disappointed. Just as well expect that these things will not follow your or my logic either. Some days will be dull and as ordinary as can be. Some days or even weeks or longer may well bring things that you couldn't have wished, guessed or even imagined. These belong to something else, to another post, but will present them here;

[i]Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?-Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life.

Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.[/i]

October. January. Mountain to the gutter. How did this happen? Who planned this? Did I fall off the edge of the earth? Just prior to the conference there was something of a brokenness, a contrition, a humbling, a troublesomeness. The conference itself was not the be all-end all nor was it really an expectation that it would be. Hope for revival, certainly. A plea that God Himself would come and break up the atmosphere, a plea that is ongoing at all times. But I left with much to ponder and with a true sense of the Lords Presence ... present, if I could couch it that way. I returned different that when I had left. There was rest and there was a stirring inwardly, a new burning or perhaps a stirring up of what was already there, it was not smoldering. There were over the course of three nights some very incredible, violent, demonic attacks that I have been very reluctant to speak about out here in the main but to a few privately. They were highly sensual in nature. They were also so incredibly bold, so incredibly idiotic that I could say that the adversary was not so witting and crafty after all. It was on the order of "Are you kidding?". It would be of the same substance that David met Goliath, [i]who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?[/i]. And the [u]only[/u] reason this was such was because the presence of the Holy Spirit at that time was vital and strong. I carried these night time attacks out into the mornings and days that followed in a sheer state of awe at their realness, the reality of what had happened. I mention that only because I still am to this very moment highly suspicious of myself, my thoughts, yes always making things test-able to their authenticity, purity. Flights of fancy are not the providence of the 'heathen' by any stretch.

Then along comes Dec.\\Jan. No particular incident and difficult to even find some starting point. Part subtle drift ... ? Seems yes and yet no. Part circumstance ... Perhaps. If I was to dare even put it this way it is the Lords doing. The newish signature at bottom is very illustrative of it. And for all that, there has been much mind failure, sin, the flesh rising up in protest and also much flat out praying without words, groanings of the spirit. All of it highly unexpected in it's intensity, it's timing, how did this happen? the question that is wondered. The schemes of the adversary now seem more on track, the back door way in, the subtle way about it, the slow erosion, the seemingly innocuous. It has been a going down to hell alive. All these things better expressed elsewhere and to be redundantly repeated. It is a strange, incredible thing that has been happening. I would put it as having ones insides set on fire or carved out like a pumpkin. It is a devastation and a woe, dark, almost 'cruel'. Show me my wretchedness? What more to that then to [i]feel[/i] it past the feelings, in the marrow, in the very make up. What Paul West spoke of here is succinct and exacting. There are depths of depravity that we know nothing of. The take heed that the apostle Paul spoke of is one verse that has always stayed with my thoughts, it not only guards against pride and draws back down to humility, but it is [i]Fact[/i], it is borne out in experience and that wretched man, that wretched man is me, it is I with a capital "I" and I will say it is you as well, all of us. He is not dead and long buried but chained as a dead corpse to the living one as the very metaphor Paul the apostle used as an illustration suggests. Who will deliver me from [b]this [u]body[/u] of death[/b]? That is what he meant and that is what the illustration [i]is[/i]. To refresh the memory, this was an ancient and diabolical way of persecution where they would physically chain a dead corpse to a living body, a madness of perverted mens minds.

So does Jesus Christ deliver or not?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It is uncanny to me how only part of this is so latched on to even while still saying the fact of the matter, that the flesh serves what it serves; The law of sin. We can take all the poetic license we like and launch off to a teaching or religious shop talk but it doesn't change a thing. Experience bores this out, time and again.

The backslider has to go somewhere and if it were so that the abolishment of the 'old man' were true, then he has backslidden to nothing and to nowhere, it would be an oxymoron.

We err in many ways, the greatest of these is in presumption. We believe or enjoy a season of 'victory', (yet another word completely destroyed and abused by our modern day Christendom) and think we are well on top of it all. Until the Lord kicks you off the mountain into the dungeon for a fresh look at the interior and possibilities that exist within you. Trust me in this, it is neither a pretty sight nor something I could wish upon anyone in this examination. You or I just do not know the half of it. It is precisely why even the best and most righteous of men can express '[i]Woe is me![/i]" as Isaiah or be exposed as Noah.

All this is coming forth out of a break, a coming up for air it seems. I do not sense it is over by any stretch of this faulty imagination and I am so utterly disgusted with myself, yes the [i]flesh[/i] that if I had it to do, if there was a way of scooping out the garbage with a spoon I would cram it down my throat and scrap out ever last bit of it. I have both rebelled and mourned. I have felt like a dove that was shot out the sky only to lay by the road dying, left to the scavengers. I have also felt a sense of indignation that any suggestion might come of being patronized over it or placated by way of comfort. I need not Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite but Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

This is all far and away beyond me and put it forth for anyones considering. There are things that matter and things that do not. To know God is everything said our departed and guttural speaking Art Katz and to that end I strive, though He slay me and fillet me and cook up the whole thing as a burnt offering. Praise Him! Oh indeed I can and will. That he might be just when He speaks and every man, every man a liar, a wretch, that in his flesh he is.

S
SimpleLiving

by hmmhmm on 2008/2/2 1:55:34

yes, i also though this was really good word, especially that part that i to have been guilty of.

"stop blaming your wife or your sinful nature, take the blame like a man, say to God I did it"

how many times have i blamed something else! just like Adam...

It's so easy to do because we live in a world where people are very thin-skinned. Someone else is always to blame because [i]I'm[/i] a good person! Most refuse to accept the consequences of their actions. Even a murderer can be excused because he felt abused as a child. The world doesn't encourage people to live with integrity, but rather that its better to [i]appear[/i] to live with integrity because then you get the "best of both worlds." Double-mindedness. It requires very conscious awareness and purposeful choices to live rightly.

I believe Brother Poonen provided incredibly sound advice for how to avoid the temptation to sin. "You know whose slave you are by whom you choose to obey." If the devil says to look at a certain magazine, movie or internet site (for example), and the Holy Spirit says not to, your actions that follow show who you belong to.

L
LiveforGod

"You know whose slave you are by whom you choose to obey." If the devil says to look at a certain magazine, movie or internet site (for example), and the Holy Spirit says not to, your actions that follow show who you belong to.

Amen Brother. Well put. That's the difference between a child of God, and a child of the Devil.

One will choose to obay God and not do those things wich he/she knows God is not pleased with.
The otherone will go ahead and disobey God, by doing those things wich he/she knows are not pleasing to God's sight.

That's Why I trully believe that a person can be keept Holly all the rest of his life, following his/her convertion.

We have a choise, wether to sin in the time of Temptation, or to Stand firm in the promises of God. He has promised us that no temptaion will come to us that is not Human, he will give us the way out with every temptaion.

If we sin, then we sin because we want to. Further on if we sin, then it is due to a neglection of our reletionship with God. If we live close to God all the days of our lives, then there is nothing to Fear. We do not need to fear Temptation, we can be overcomers by the power of God in us. Amen

" There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13.

Oh How beautiful it is to live for God's Glory. To live as undeserving men and women. To know that he Loves us so much that he gave himself for us. To know the power of God allmighty. Oh Brothers, He can preserve you holly and pure. One man and God, what a difference it is that God can have in a man/woman totally sold our for him. What a difference!

May the God of all Glory be with all of you.

P
PaulWest

Dear Mike Balog, if I had time I would quote many different sections of your noble post with the utmost alacrity. This "mountain to the gutter" experience you speak of so passionately is just what we need to hear. God forbid we continue labor under the assumption that the low point isn't as [i]low[/i] as theology textbooks and Bible commentaries would lead us to believe.

It is [i]low[/i] and frightening. It's like seeing the world of damnation on the other side of a glass window. We see how how real it is, we can smell the smells, sense the heat, perceive the darkness. We can only pray the glass won't shatter. It's like being 20,000 leagues under a sea of carnality in a tranparent submarine held in tact only by the unmerited grace of God.

Now, I would like to disclose a few things here. In this forum I am perceived as somewhat of a Puritan in heart, a brother who posts thoughtful words, the occasional profound post, and who might seem to have a talent for opening certain scriptures in the honesty and anointing of the Holy Spirit. I would like to state for the record here once and for all...and dispell any allusions of grandeur someone might have about me:

The truth is that I am supremely wicked. If someone could make a video of my heart-breathings over the last month and post them here on SermonIndex as a compilation to click and view, I would never return. I would be so shamed, so disgraced, and my repuation would be forever maligned. I openly admit this as someone who is revered in these forums as a man of God. The lust, the greed, the anger, the surmizing thoughts, the giving way to carnality - if only for a few seconds - before II Cor. 10:5 kicks in. I tell you all; I am wicked, there is nothing good in my flesh, and I can never improve my flesh. In fact, I've given up trying, and this, I believe, is precisely what God is after. My righteousness is [i]only[/i] in Christ, unmerited, and it's only by His precious, merciful blood that am I made new each morning. O brethren, I've given up on trying to improve PaulWest; he's rotten to the core, putrid, we need to bury the corpse. Our new lives must be hid in Christ, and lived daily, moment-by-moment by faith in God and by a moment-by-moment self-abhorrence of ourselves.

People speak of having the "burning bush" experience and "turning aside" to see God. Well, when a man "turns aside" to look at God, that man basically commits spiritual suicide. [i]"Woe is me...I am undone..."[/i] God has said that none can look upon Him and live, and I am inclined to accept this in the spiritual. To gaze upon God's purity, His holiness, and eternally perfect integrity equivocates to nothing less than an instant, inner death blow as we naturally contrast our wickedness, our falsehood, our iniquity, our uncleaness. Let the theologians argue till the cows come home over the nature of fallen man versus regenerate man, I can only speak with 100% assurance of what I see in me, and continue to see in me.

Early in my walk, after being smashed to bits so many times in trying to achieve a standard of holiness I saw in Ravenhill and his stories of other heroic men of God, I finally broke down one night in tears. It was then I heard the still, soft voice: "The death in Christ is a [i]daily[/i] death. It's not a one-time occurence that cements you into a kind of irretrievable godly diligence for the rest of your life. The surrender you seek is daily, it's moment by moment, minute by minute, and My grace is sufficient."

During the "burning bush" encounter, God told Moses to put his hand beneath his cloak and then pull it out. And when Moses did, it came out leporous. This is an image of what is truly in our breasts, in our inoperable flesh, and when we encounter God through His Word, He shows us the same. He beseeches us to "put our hand in", pull it out, and look.

C
crsschk

and the Holy Spirit says not to, your actions that follow show who you belong to.
Amen Brother. Well put. That's the difference between a child of God, and a child of the Devil.

Not so fast there with the blanket accusations. Don't mean to be overly didactic but there is such a thing as being overtaken by sin ...

Comments like this are far too sweeping. If you stopped to think about it they are self indicting as well. Who did you 'belong to' during your most recent failure?

M
murrcolr

If you look at the posts I've posted since the last time you asked you'll see one.

S
sermonindex


I just read Mike Balog's post all through, and thank him for yet again trusting us with his latest understandings and insight. The quote from Adam Clarke was very interesting, as the allusion to a mean kind of persecution.

Until the Lord kicks you off the mountain into the dungeon for a fresh look at the interior and possibilities that exist within you. Trust me in this, it is neither a pretty sight nor something I could wish upon anyone in this examination. You or I just do not know the half of it. It is precisely why even the best and most righteous of men can express 'Woe is me!" as Isaiah or be exposed as Noah.
Brought to mind a phrase of Oswald Chambers' to which I was introduced many years ago. It's the sort of phrase one immediately hates, for what it does to one's darling theology, but proves to be so truly a friend for the self-deception it removes however brutally - [i]'whole tracts of...'

:-o

From September 28th, My Utmost for His Highest

"Then Jesus beholding him loved him." The look of Jesus will mean a heart broken for ever from allegiance to any other person or thing. Has Jesus ever looked at you? The look of Jesus transforms and transfixes. Where you are "soft" with God is where the Lord has looked at you. If you are hard and vindictive, insistent on your own way, certain that the other person is more likely to be in the wrong than you are, it is an indication that there are [color=006699]whole tracts of your nature[/color] that have never been transformed by His gaze.

"One thing thou lackest . . ." The only "good thing" from Jesus Christ's point of view is union with Himself and nothing in between.

HAVE YOU EVER BEEN ALONE WITH GOD? (January 13th)

"When He was alone the twelve . . . asked of Him . . ." Mark 4:10

His Solitude with Us. When God gets us alone by affliction, heartbreak, or temptation, by disappointment, sickness, or by thwarted affection, by a broken friendship, or by a new friendship - when He gets us absolutely alone, and we are dumbfounded, and cannot ask one question, then He begins to expound. Watch Jesus Christ's training of the twelve. It was the disciples, not the crowd outside, who were perplexed. They constantly asked Him questions, and He constantly expounded things to them; but they only understood after they had received the Holy Spirit (see John 14:26).

If you are going on with God, the only thing that is clear to you, and the only thing God intends to be clear, is the way He deals with your own soul. Your brother's sorrows and perplexities are an absolute confusion to you. We imagine we understand where the other person is, until God gives us a dose of the plague of our own hearts. There are [color=006699]whole tracts of stubbornness and ignorance[/color] to be revealed by the Holy Spirit in each one of us, and it can only be done when Jesus gets us alone. Are we alone with Him now, or are we taken up with little fussy notions, fussy comradeships in God's service, fussy ideas about our bodies? Jesus can expound nothing until we get through all the noisy questions of the head and are alone with Him.

CONTINUOUS CONVERSION (December 28th)

"Except ye be converted, and become as little children. . . ." Matthew 18:3

These words of Our Lord are true of our initial conversion, but we have to be continuously converted all the days of our lives, continually to turn to God as children. If we trust to our wits instead of to God, we produce consequences for which God will hold us responsible. Immediately our bodies are brought into new conditions by the providence of God, we have to see that our natural life obeys the dictates of the Spirit of God. Because we have done it once is no proof that we shall do it again. The relation of the natural to the spiritual is one of continuous conversion, and it is the one thing we object to. In every setting in which we are put, the Spirit of God remains unchanged and His salvation unaltered, but we have to "put on the new man." God holds us responsible every time we refuse to convert ourselves, our reason for refusing is wilful obstinacy. Our natural life must not rule, God must rule in us.

The hindrance in our spiritual life is that we will not be continually converted, there are wadges of obstinacy where our pride spits at the throne of God and says - I won't. We deify independence and wilfulness and call them by the wrong name. What God looks on as obstinate weakness, we call strength. There are [color=006699]whole tracts of our lives[/color] which have not yet been brought into subjection, and it can only be done by this continuous conversion. Slowly but surely we can claim the whole territory for the Spirit of God.' [/i]

This is something about taking the cup of salvation [i]and[/i] drinking it to the end. No clever smilie faces here. That would be to imply Christ didn't do a good job of opening a new and living way to [i]eternal[/i] life.

C
crsschk

If you look at the posts I've posted since the last time you asked you'll see one.

Brother, my apologies if I used your out takes there as something of an indictment, that wasn't my intention, just launched off from them in this somewhat aimless way of expression. At the same time I am also unsure what you mean here ...

Brother Paul ... The kindred spirit shared here... So much I also would like to add, perhaps later, currently at work and need to get some things accomplished. Perceptions are something aren't they? And maybe it is the guttural, the things that come forth out of a pathos that grip and demand and put us face to face up against our theologies and considerations. I cannot but help think back recently to the post regarding Keith Daniel and the man who was so brutally honest with himself that he had to leave the pulpit. This rarity, this guttural ... forthcoming, yours, mine, all of us who are at our wits ends to get to ... spiritual, factual, actual reality. It is the heights of our profession, it is our striving towards 'perfection' it is all the things longing to be absent\\present with the Lord. When this earthly life is over, when this body can no longer hoodwink us, when the temptations have ceased for ever ... My God it is so far past my imagination ...

So much wanting expression here. I recognize what Wesley and Booth and others were after. I understand it well enough, none of this is to thwart or discount anything whatsoever. I just do not see where everything must need be categorized into such distinct shades of black or white, baby\\bathwater however it might be termed. There is such a tension and paradox in this walk. The surprises and sheer lack of control that we think we have. It makes all this terribly exciting and often just terrible.

As cold as I was feeling yesterday, last night even, the same things you mentioned, just to snip a snap shot it;

If someone could make a video of my heart-breathings over the last month and post them here on SermonIndex as a compilation to click and view, I would never return. I would be so shamed, so disgraced, and my repuation would be forever maligned.

Oh, this needs more to be spoken to on it's own but ... I did end up having this incredible dream that was just as startling in it's opposite of the days and weeks gone by. It was some setting of a very weird church. Some modern cult like thing. It had a cult leader and a cult like following. They had this giant check blown up in the amount of $512.00 dollars that was supposed to be emblematic of their beginning and had it hovering out in the foyer of a very large\\mega church setting. Had begun to purchase one of their videos and was asking someone behind the counter what all the contents were discussing and suddenly started getting cold feet. It turned out I signed the CC receipt for it and then got into a whole debacle over being duped and wanting nothing to do with it, please just refund my money I asked. Somehow it started turning into something of a ordeal and they sent me through all these different people who were set about to persuade me in their strange teaching. In other words, an exercise in brainwashing. This went on all the way up to the 'top' until I was to met with the personality himself, whoever he was. He came out with his entourage asking me pointed questions about theology and why I would not accept their very weird and I do mean weird constructs. It was so new age-ish I do not know if I have even heard a comparative in real life. Very mechanical and humanistic, not subtly but overtly, kind of like a mixed Universalism with Christian Science overtones, truly bizarre. I recall only responding with very short answers, "What about Jesus?" or "Did not the Lord say ___?" and at one point, almost quite comically this person, 'leader' was interrupted by his cohorts with "Don't answer that yet! Wait, listen to us" as they collectively crafted some kind of long-winded explanation back at me. They seemed completely puzzled by me and led me around as if it was a tour of their facilities all the while trying to persuade me to their notions. It was all very calm and matter of fact from my stand point, I was not returning fire as it were but equal puzzlement .. Do you not believe the Book? Would have been the underlying essence of my short replies.

I have no idea what it all means and woke up to use the bathroom. Have you ever woke up from a dream, ponder on it and then thought that thought, "Wish I could go back to sleep and see how this all turns out"? And it never does, you never go back to the same dream, or at least I never do. Well I did go back to sleep and sure enough it changed up again. Let me interject here that memorable dreams of late have been in short supply. And the next dream did have something to do with present (real life) challenges. But all of a sudden it switched gears and ... found myself back in that same weird church again. Go figure! This time the wife and I were siting through apparently one the sermons, towards the end of it, the benediction at the end. They did something just as bizarre and I wish I could retell it here as it is vague, but it was some part of scripture and then their bizarre admonishen of ... I just cannot recall it, what they said, something to do with their little motto, it made them all jump up and down and yell and scream for a bit. It left me utterly baffled, it was not of God in any way, in fact it was so much of the evil one that it was painted perfectly. Happy faces all around, all in complete agreement ... While it was going on still, we rose up and began to walk out, something that drew everyones attention apparently for a moment. Walking through the concourse towards the parking lot noticed all the children who were awaiting there parents there. They were completely silent. The appearance to an outsider (namely, us) was of at first glance,
"My, how well behaved they are" and the smiles on their faces seemed to show something of a peaceful contentment. But it wasn't long before this recognition came that they were in fact drugged into this stupefaction. Why I perceived this I do not know, well scratch that, it was a prompting of the Holy Spirit.

What all this means I do not know. What was incredible was the state I left off last night, very, very cold inwardly and also shamed at that coldness, combined with even more losing battles of a fleshly mindful nature ... And then to have a series of dreams like that ...

Surprised? Once again, yes indeed. What we get. What we deserve. The Lords mercy. The Lords heavy hand. The Lords grace.

I must go. One last lingering thought. There was a series of posts I believe from Richard Baxter about how even those sins, those very things that we despise and rightly do despise, can still be used by the Lord. Would have to dreg it back up again to get the context and present it more properly but ... I sign off for now, once again utterly amazed, in awe and wonder at all these things.

L
LiveforGod

Hello my dear brother crsschk.

but there is such a thing as being overtaken by sin ...

Brother, yes, I agree, but only if you mean that we are overtaken by sin because we choose to let sin have dominion over us. I disagree if what you mean is that we are overtaken by sin even thou we may not want to give in to temptation.
I know form personal experience that any sin we commit is done with 100 persent of our aproval. I trully believe that nobody forces us to commit a sin. It is us who choose to sin when temptation presents itself. We have a choise, if we did't then that would make us robots. That would make us not accountable for anything we do. But we know that we are accountable for every one of our actions, and that according to them we shall be judged when Christ returns.

Brother, if we can be Christians, and still live in sin, then where is the power of God in all of that. Where is that re-birth that Jesus was explaing to Nicodemus.

What makes us("Christians") any different than sombody who lives in sin , yet don't acknoladge that God is real?

Then Do we("Christians") have a lisence to Sin and not be guilty of sin? For if to live for God means that I have to sin, then I rather spend my life just as It was before I knew Jesus. What's the diference?

But thank be to God that a Christian does not have to sin. A Christian can be holly. A Christian can be Just. A Christian does not have to sin.

Brothers, I apologise if by this I do offend some of you. It is not my intention to offend anybody, but how can I shut my mouth and not speak the wonderful workings of the Lord. How can I say that I love God, and still not keep his commandments? I find it very sad to hear that some of you are living in such a poor state. To hear that a person who has Christ lives in sin. Im I the only one to be greeved over this?

Where is the Power of God to make a person not live in the Flesh, but in the spirit? Have we reduced Christianity to this?

I summit to you that That is not the Gospell of Jesus Christ.

The Gospell of Jesus Christ is one of Victory and not one of Defeat. The Gospell of Jesus is one of: Yes in Him I can do all things.

All Glory be to God.

H
hmmhmm

I just read this chapter, i thought it would fit here, many wonderful thoughts by Sparks.... Sparks has a way to word things that they become in line, in order for our minds to grasp as he says.... what the issue is about. Anyway, its quite a long read but a very good one, i will go through this whole book.


[url=http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/the_battle_for_life.html]The Battle for life[/url]
by T. Austin-Sparks

Chapter 5 - The Continuation of the Conflict in Relation to the Individual Believer

We are seeking to take a further step in the apprehension of what is related to this great and pressing matter, and are going to deal with the continuation of the conflict, with reference to its nature and its sphere.

THE NATURE OF THE CONFLICT

The work of the Lord Jesus in His Cross has now been set forth in two respects. On the one hand, we have noted there was that which was actually complete and final in His work; the fact that the Lord did destroy him that had the power of death, and also death itself. With regard to Himself, that is a finished work. His presence at the right hand of God declares that death, the grave, and Satan, have been brought to naught, and no longer have any power over Him. On the other hand, there is what we have called the potential work of His Cross, that is that Christ did something which in Himself is full and final, but which has yet to become full and final in the saints; something which was for the saints, but which has still to become complete in their experience. It is potential, so far as the Church is concerned, although in Him, its Head, they have it in finality. As the result of the work of His Cross, and as the grand issue of His resurrection, eternal life is received already by those who believe. But while that life is itself victorious, incorruptible, indestructible, the believer has to come by faith to prove it, to live by it, to learn its laws, to be conformed to it. There is a deposit in the believer which in itself needs no addition, so far as its quality is concerned. So far as its victory, its power, its glory, its potentialities are concerned, nothing can be added to it. But the course of spiritual experience, of spiritual life, is to discover, to appropriate, and to live by all that the life represents and means. That is to say, the course of spiritual life and experience is the course of discovering and living by the values of that life which is within, and which is succoured from above.

It is important to recognise that as a discriminating word. We are very often inclined to think that the life of the Lord in us needs in some way to be improved, to be added to, when really what is required is that we should discover what we have, and, discovering it by experience, live according to it. This life is not something apart from the Lord Jesus, and we can never think of His standing in need of some improvement, nor of the possibility of something being added to Him to make Him complete, or more complete. We would never think like that. And this life is one with Himself. As the Apostle says, it is Christ who is our life, and our need is to discover what Christ is in us, and to live accordingly. So in a very real sense it is a matter of the life getting more of us, rather than of our getting more of the life. That, at any rate, is the way of its working.

This, in the ordering of God, has to be done in a world where death still rules and works; for in this world the destruction of death has not yet been made manifest. Death, like the devil, goes on, although Calvary still remains full victory. We are left in this world, and it is in this world where death reigns and works as a great energy that we, by this sovereign ordering of God, have to come to prove the values of the life which has been deposited in us, and to discover its potentialities. This is an experimental discovery. It therefore resolves itself into battle between that which is in this world and the life which is in the believer. It is the battle for life, not as to the forfeiture of that life - not as to whether death can take eternal life away from us, for that is not the question at issue - but as to the triumphant expression and the full manifestation of the power of that life. That is the issue. We may have eternal life, and yet that life may be pressed away in our very being without expression, without manifestation, without any triumphant issue. It may be there, but cramped and smothered.

That which is true in the case of the individual believer can be equally true in the case of the Church, the collective company; it may have life, eternal life, and yet there may be no expressed testimony of its presence, or but a very limited manifestation. With this expression, this manifestation - not only with the possession of life but with the testimony to that possession - there are bound up no lesser issues than the resurrection and lordship of Jesus Christ. The testimony to the fact that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead and is at the right hand of the Majesty on High in absolute lordship is bound up with an expression here - let us repeat - of that life which is His risen life. That is no small matter. The last Adam was made a "life-giving spirit" - life-giving, that is, life manifesting itself, life being transmitted, life expressed - and if that is not exemplified in and through the believer, and through the Church as a whole, there is something taken away from the testimony of the Lord Jesus. How is there to be the proof, the demonstration, the evidence, the final establishment of the fact that Jesus is alive from the dead, and is Lord? It is by the triumphant expression of His life in His own. It is not by a doctrinal statement. Christ is never proved to be alive from the dead, nor to be Lord, by doctrinal statements. Your statement of faith may include the fact that you believe Jesus died and rose again, ascended to heaven, and is at the right hand of the Majesty on High, but how are you going to prove your statement? What has God given as the evidence of that? You may believe it; you may be willing to lay down your life for that faith; you may state it with tremendous emphasis, and yet you are not thereby proving it. You will never prove anything by saying: 'I believe with all my might that this is the case!' You will never prove a thing by standing up and declaring it as something which you believe. You will never prove a thing by saying: 'I believe in all the fundamentals of the Christian faith!' and calling yourself by some name which indicates that you believe in the inspiration of the Bible. Nothing is ever proved in that way. Reducing the whole matter to these two points - that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead, and is Lord of all - you have still to prove your statement after you have made it. If you have appealed to the fact that the Word of God says so, even then you have proved nothing. Your proof can never be by argument, because what argument can build up argument can pull down, and what logic can construct logic can destroy.

How, then, are you going to prove that this is so? By the expression and manifestation of His risen life, that is all - but it is a mighty 'all'! That signifies that you are the embodiment of the thing which you declare - that besides the doctrinal statement there is the living expression. Thus the resurrection and the lordship of Jesus are bound up with this expression which is called the 'testimony'. The testimony is not a system of truth. It is that extra factor to the statement and presentation of truth which is the power of a life which conquers death. How, then, will you prove that Jesus has conquered death? The proof of it will be a death-conquering life that expresses itself in you.

This being the case, it means that the whole issue is one of a life-power by which Christ is attested. We do not put the life in the place of Christ, but we say that the attestation of Christ is by the life. We do not mean the manner of life, but the life-power, the impact of a spiritual force which emanates from Him as in the throne, the registration upon a spiritual realm of a greater spiritual power. That is the attestation of the Lord Jesus. Therefore the major weapon of the enemy will be death. Death is also a spiritual power. Thus it becomes a battle between two spiritual powers, the power of life and the power of death. The battle goes on, and will go on, until the Church becomes so vitalised by this Divine power that, in a moment, those who went into the grave, and those who are alive and remain, are united in a mighty resurrection-ascension to the Lord in glory. The battle between these two great spiritual powers will go on till then.

That is the battle in which we find ourselves. It is an intensifying battle, and we had better recognise it once for all. It is difficult to accept that sometimes, even though we assent to it mentally. When things become difficult we are surprised and wonder, perhaps thinking it strange that it should be so. But it must be recognised and accepted that this spiritual warfare between life and death will intensify toward the end, and it will reach its highest point of tension right at the point where the Church is about to be translated. That is undoubtedly made clear by the Word of the Lord.

THE SPHERE OF THE CONFLICT

We speak in the first place about the individual believer. We must remember that this life of the risen Lord, as linked with the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of life, resides in the very deepest part of our being, in our spirit, or in what the New Testament calls "the inner man". Therefore the most spiritual people will find that the conflict of life rages around and upon their spirit. There is a direct assault upon their spirit in order to get their spirit weakened, shut in and pressed down, so that somewhere in the depths of their being they feel that they are unable to breathe, so to speak. They cannot actually locate it, but they are conscious that right within there is a locking up, a pressing, a hemming in, a suffocating of spirit. One of two things will result. Either their spirit will be pressed out under this weight of spiritual death, and they will go under; or else they will have to call earnestly upon the Lord that they may be strengthened with might by His Spirit into the inward man, and then exercise faith on the ground of their prayer and seek to assert their spirit against this thing.

The trouble with a great many of the Lord's people is that they do not rise up in spirit and, in the name of the Lord, meet and resist that thing which is threatening to crush the very life out of their spirit. There is an accepting of things; there is a consenting; there is a passive attitude; or else there is a getting into an awful swirl of questionings doubtings, arguments and discussions with the devil, going round in an eternal circle of introspection and self-analysis, when really in such circumstances believers ought in their spirits to rise up in faith in the name of the Lord to resist this thing and refuse to have it, calling, in His name, upon the energies of the Holy Ghost. We shall never get through until we learn how to do that. If the enemy finds that he can hold the situation by keeping us in that circle, that awful going round of debate, argument, discussion, of analysing, of questioning, of doubting, he will keep us going round; he will whip us up like a circus horse to keep us running round all the time, while we never get beyond the point where we started. If you keep going back there all the time, not making one fragment or fraction of real spiritual progress toward victory, you can go on so indefinitely.

Another favourite method of the enemy is to try to get us to explain this thing along lines which are less than the real explanation, to draw in other things which he would like us to believe may account for it. The things may be numerous and various. If we settle down to accept such an explanation, it will prove our undoing. While there may be much that he can use and play upon in natural conditions, and while it may be true that he is making the most of all that is available of our own human weakness, and perhaps our physical condition, and our constitution, our make-up, and our surroundings, nevertheless ultimately it may not be a question of anything in nature at all, but a matter of being strong in spirit. You may take it as one of the settled things that there is no hope for anybody in the direction of those natural conditions. If you start working from the circumference to the centre, you are working the wrong way, and you will not get through; you will be held on the circumference until you are dead. The enemy will not let you reach the centre from the circumference. You must start at the centre and work outward. The key to victory is our spirit-union with our risen and reigning Lord.

There are other realms, of course, in which this death battle goes on, and where this assault of death is made upon the believer. Sometimes it is upon the mind. There is a darkening, a numbing, or something like a paralysing of the mind when you turn to consider the things of the Lord. At other times you may be quite clear and free, and your mind have little trouble in working in ordinary things, but immediately you come to spiritual things, to the things of the Lord, you discover that your mind is becoming overclouded, and is not functioning. It is being paralysed; there is a darkness and a death creeping over it. The enemy does make assaults upon our minds; there is no doubt about that. He attacks our soul: not only the intellectual side, but every side. The enemy makes an assault upon the emotional side, to dry up and freeze our feelings, so that we are totally incapable of giving any response or of exercising any kind of heart function in relation to the Lord. The same is true in the realm of the will. There are times when it seems we cannot make a decision, and cannot will in the way of the Lord. The will comes under assault like that.

Death breaks upon us in each of these spheres, and the experience is more or less common to us all. It is a battle. As is the case with the spirit directly, and also with the soul, so it is with the body. There is no doubt at all that the enemy makes assaults upon the bodies of the Lord's people. I do not say that every malady, every sickness, every physical weakness, every bit of natural tiredness is the direct work of the devil. Of course, historically it is the outcome of his work, but immediately it need not be the direct work of the devil, and we are not saying that it is. We should find ourselves in great difficulties were we to teach that. But there are direct attacks of the enemy in the spirit of death upon the bodies of the Lord's people. Where there is a weakness he may fasten upon it, add to it, and seek to cripple us altogether through our weakness when, although that basic weakness might remain, we need not be crippled by it. That has been the history of the Lord's people. It becomes a question as to whether the enemy is going to use that thing to undo us altogether, or whether, in spite of it, we are to be found proving the power of a life which triumphs over it, and carries us on.

PAUL'S THORN IN THE FLESH

The Apostle Paul always comes to our help in these matters. Paul has placed it on record that, because of the greatness of the revelation which came to him, lest he should become exalted above measure there was given unto him a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet him, to smite him in the face. For this thing he besought the Lord thrice, but the Lord said: "My grace is sufficient for thee, for my strength is made perfect in weakness" (2 Corinthians 12:9). We have good reason to believe that the weakness was physical weakness; I find it difficult not to believe that it was malaria. There is every reason, I think, to believe that to have been the malady. Paul's journeys were oftimes in places which were infested with the malarial elements, while he was without any of the modern helps to overcome them. And when you remember that the complaint affected his eyes - anybody who knows anything about malaria knows of those sharp pangs through the eyes which in the long run do interfere with the organs of sight - it all points strongly to malaria. We are not arguing that it was so, but we find difficulty in believing that such was not the case. But, whatever it was, here is something which from time to time laid hold of Paul, and it seemed that he never knew when this thing was going to overtake him. His "thorn" was undoubtedly physical weakness, and it is called "a messenger of Satan". The whole direction of it, from the enemy's side, was a working of death. In relation to that, Paul speaks of death working in this mortal flesh. It was all in the direction of death, death, death; he was facing and fighting death all the time. But the point is, that while the devil most clearly had to do with this physical state, as the statement shows, and the Lord Himself permitted it, it did not work out in death. On the contrary, the course of that man's life is the course of a continual triumph over that death and Satan. That the power of death does assail, and that the Lord does not all the time prevent the devil from attacking these bodies, is manifest. But that does not mean that the Lord intends us to die! You might think the logic to be that if the Lord allows a messenger of Satan, whose effect is death, surely the Lord means us to die. There is no justification for such an argument. Quite the opposite is the case. The Lord had a very salutary purpose for everything in the case of the Apostle, and this working of death was expressly used to keep the man spiritually alive; for had he not had the thorn, his spiritual life would have been smitten with a blight. Hear his own words: "Lest I should be exalted above measure..." Find the man exalted above measure, and you find the man of poor spiritual life, for his spiritual life has been blighted. Find the man who is kept humble in this way, and yet triumphant in a way which is not explained on a natural ground, and you will find the man who is a giant in spirit.

Yes, the enemy does attack the body. He impinges upon what is already there and seeks to intensify it. He seeks to cripple the saints. But the whole of this word, especially in relation to the life of the Apostle Paul, is one great declaration that even in the presence of a natural handicap, a natural weakness, or something with which the devil himself has come in at a given point in the permission of God, there is a life which can carry us on to the fulfilment of a great Divine purpose which need not be curtailed because of natural conditions. Get hold of that! Do not sink under your condition and say: 'Because such and such is the case with me, then the Divine purpose in its greater dimensions is impossible!' That is despair, not faith. The Apostle's declaration was this: "... that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me" (Galatians 2:20). It was life by faith in the Son of God. And what a living it was! What a life it was! Indeed, in his case it was a life triumphant over ever-present death. You must remember that the ministry of Paul to these Galatians was occasioned by "an infirmity in the flesh", i.e. a physical sickness, affecting his eyes (4.13-14).

It was a battle. Read the second letter to the Corinthians, and you will see the traces of the battle. Paul had just emerged from that desperate situation where he despaired of life. He had been laid so low with this thing, whatever it was, that he never expected to recover. But he came out. He bore the marks of the battle with death (Galatians 6:17), but he continued on his course long after he wrote the second letter to the Corinthians. Some of the most glorious things found expression after that. Let us believe in the possibilities of the Lord's life within us, and disclaim all the arguments in our own state, or which the enemy would impose upon us by reason of how we feel and how things appear. We must all take this to heart.

LIFE IS DEEPER THAN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS

We close by referring to this one point. We must seek always to believe in the fact that this Divine life, with all its tremendous potencies, is far deeper down than surrounding conditions and circumstances, than our own physical life, and than our own soul-life. Unless we grasp that, hold that firmly, we have not the ground of victory. When we feel that death is working with such tremendous force in the realm of our bodies or our souls, and everything in this sentient life of ours speaks of death, we are too often in danger of surrendering the whole position. I believe that this thing which is of God is deeper than our mortal being. I believe that it is possible even for children of God, being truly born again and possessing eternal life, to lose their reason and go into an asylum, and yet to have no change made in the deepest fact and reality of the being in relation to the Lord. We touch that point to indicate what we mean - that if our rational life is the sum total of our life, then it is a poor look-out for us. If our sanity, our natural mental balance, is the ground of our being children of God, then some from time to time would have real reason to doubt whether they were born again. And if that is true in the mental, it is true in the physical. This life of the Lord is far deeper than this mortal life of ours.

I am going to say something which may, to some, sound very terrible. It may perplex some, but it may help others. It is this: it is possible for a true child or servant of God, living in true fellowship with Him and walking in the light as far as they have it, to pass through a time of deep and terrible darkness. At such a time it may seem as though the Lord has left them and that Satan has taken His place of government. Prayer seems impossible or useless, and the Bible closed. Evil seems triumphant. The promises of God never to leave nor in anywise to forsake seem to have failed. Things may seem to be even worse than that, and one's salvation may be brought into question. Such has been the experience of some of the most saintly, devoted, and God-used servants of the Lord. Abraham had it (Genesis 15:12). Jeremiah knew it (Jeremiah 20:7). David knew it (Psalm 22). Job knew it. Our Lord Jesus knew it (Matthew 27:46). Dr. A. B. Simpson had this experience near the end of his wonderful life for God. And so it has been with others.

What is the explanation? With all my heart I do not believe that this seeming forsakenness is true, however real it may seem. In many cases it is because those concerned have done so much damage to the kingdom of Satan that he has rallied all his forces to quench their life and testimony. Or it may be that the enemy has discerned the potential value of a life which will be a menace to his interests. But, whether either of these explanations be true or not so, the fact remains that, where the Lord Jesus truly is, the battle for life often assumes most serious forms. Sometimes it is a devastating and desolating experience.

We need to remember that these are spiritual forces, and spiritual forces stand at no physical barriers. We have a soul, a great nervous system. Children of God for many reasons, and very often after a time of pouring out spiritually, will find their nerves are all a jangle, and they feel anything but good and holy. But are you going to say that that means that after all they are not children of God, and that it is all a myth? Do you mean to say that Elijah was no longer the prophet of the Most High when he cast himself under the juniper tree and asked the Lord to take away his life? He was still the servant of God, still as true to God as ever. We are not trying to excuse our weaknesses, but trying to get to the heart of a situation. That does not argue that the Lord has forsaken, that the Lord is not there, and that such are not the Lord's children or His servants. It indicates that the enemy has made them marked men or women because of something he is trying to destroy in the life. If you get into that realm, do not accept the suggestions of the enemy or seek to interpret things in the light of circumstances.

If you do not understand this that we are saying, do not strive after an explanation, and please do not put your own construction upon it. There are some who know what it is to have such an assault upon their being, their physical and nervous life as to make them feel that they are lost. I do not believe that it means that they are lost, and it is because some people accept that suggestion from the tempter that they sink into darkness. Oh, that many of these people who feel this thing upon them could know what we are trying to say, that it is for the spirit to rise up in faith and refuse the argument of the seeming! The seeming is sometimes so terribly real. People who have not suffered sometimes say to us: 'It only seems to be so; it is not really so!' And we reply: 'You do not know what you are talking about! It is more real than anything else to those concerned.' But the Lord will teach us as we go on not to accept that as the final thing. There is something deeper than that. The Lord is deeper than our physical feelings. The Lord is deeper than our soul.

Let me say here what I have said elsewhere. There are times and situations when ordinary lines of communication with a child of God are suspended. They are in a state of unconsciousness. It is useless to speak to them, for they can make no response. But if you pray, so often there is a response, not in words, but deeper than natural consciousness. You touch something deeper; it is the spirit, and spirit responds to spirit. We have known this to happen, even to the point of a hand-squeeze, or a facial glow. It is the mystery of Divine life.

P
PaulWest

it is possible for a true child or servant of God, living in true fellowship with Him and walking in the light as far as they have it, to pass through a time of deep and terrible darkness. At such a time it may seem as though the Lord has left them and that Satan has taken His place of government.

I believe we are in dire need of this kind of information. All too often we hear of victory, victory, victory but with no consolation for defeat. What is your theology of failure? What happens when you can't pray, can read the Word, have no appetite for fellowship? What happens when the weight of divers trials and temptations drive you down to the ground, and all the scintillating sermons of Spurgeon and warnings of Wesley and regiments of Ravenhill and truth of Tozer and profundity of Poonen are but the droning of dreariness?

Our understanding of failure and trials and temptations are crucial for these times, and I fear we don't hear nearly enough from the pulpit concerning them as we ought. Normally, we don't hear too much of the horrid, unspoken failures of our favorite preachers. We merely click on their sermons and download their best fruit - fruit, however, which was wrought by unseen, unfelt fire and gut-wrenching toil and longsuffering in the refiner's furnace.

We get the steak without once stepping foot into the slaughterhouse. I think it's hightime to open those bloody doors, candidly, and show what really goes on afterhours beneath the bare, blood-besplattered lightbulbs.

Brother Paul

H
hmmhmm

"You can never have the fruit until the blossom is gone, and it takes terrible winds to get rid of the blossom in order to bring on the fruit"

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20578&forum=35]Grace of God[/url]

I was also struck by that excerpt you posted brother Paul, but there was so many others also, I am in the line of thinking holiness and life and how they go together ...

S
sermonindex

PaulWest said:

What happens when you can't pray, can read the Word, have no appetite for fellowship? What happens when the weight of divers trials and temptations drive you down to the ground, and all the scintillating sermons of Spurgeon and warnings of Wesley and regiments of Ravenhill and truth of Tozer and profundity of Poonen are but the droning of dreariness?
I heard every word that you've written here, I know EXACTLY what your saying. I am there now, I have been there for a very long time. BUT, He is faithful.

S
sermonindex


To Mike Balog,

I was struck by elements of the dream to which you returned (p9 second post). It reminded me of this which Diane (roadsign) experienced one night.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20420&forum=35]A lost identity[/url]

P
PaulWest

BUT, He is faithful.

Yes, brother, He is faithful...[i]especially when we're not.[/i] This is a truth, as Paul would say, worthy of all acceptation. It's crushing enough to fail God repeatedly...though what crushes us even more is when He upholds His faithfulness in the light of our betrayal. I'm sure this is what destroyed Peter - that look from the Lord when the cock crowed thrice. Peter knew inwardly he was wrong - betrayal - as he continually denied knowing God. The more he was questioned the more vehemently he denied. He knew he was doing something wrong, greviously wrong. But what broke him was the look of the bound, condemned Christ.

It must have been a look of faithfulness despite his betrayal. A look of God's acceptance despite the rejection of man. This is precisely what is so unspeakably awesome, so glorious, so tremendous, so wonderful about our God. He remains faithful even when we won't and/or don't. When we deserve death, He instead gives us life, and life most abundant. We spit on Him and trample His Son and He yet doesn't take His ring and sandals back. We consort with the enemy for a dark season of treachery and when we finally return crestfallen and used, He runs to receive us and kills the fatted calf all over [i]again[/i].

The ancient Mexicans had a bird-god named Quetzacoatl, and this god demanded virgin sacrifices for his "protection". The hearts of his victims were cut from their chests as they screamed on the altar. Now, we know this is a false god made by the design of man and embodied by demon spirits, and we see how such a thing contrasts with the character of the olny true God, Jehovah. No man could have created the one, true, invisible God of Israel; He is too good, and His supreme goodness is most illogical, antithetical, most repugnant to the mind of wicked man.

M
murrcolr

Testimony As Requested

Where do I start lets see 1998. As I got on to the pavement across from the church I opened up my heart to God and prayed. God I believe everything you have said to me, I don’t know how you are going to it but I am not going back to that church. Mid step the Holy Spirit spoke to me. “You’ll be like Job” This was not what I was expected to hear. Had I done wrong was God going to punish me for leaving the church but I could not go back.

I had attended that church for 9 years. Two of these years I spent at the bible school which was part of that church. Things were happening at the church I could no longer stand there was some serious issues which the Pastor would not address or take responsibility for.

At first I prayed read the bible and kept my relationship going with God. But slowly very slowly the praying reading the bible stopped, my relationship with God was going down hill. I started taking night classes working to improve my chances at work. Going out for a beer with my work colleges they thought it was great this guy never used to do this. Soon enough I was getting promotion.

Occasionally there came thoughts about God. I still believed in Jesus I would never deny him. I remembered that night with my girlfriend lying next to me in the bed black and blue because of the beating I had gave her. In that bedroom which only had mattress for us to sleep on, with bed sheet as a curtain. Rolling the Joint and putting it down before I prayed. I lay down on my bed. God I asked I am fed up being like this I want to change. At that moment a wind started to leave me it blew straight out from my stomach when it stopped another wind blew back into me. It blew into my stomach but I could feel it travel down my legs up my chest and down my arms. When it stopped I sat up and spoke in a language I did not understand. After I stopped speaking I knew right away this must be tongues. How can I deny that I could never deny it.

I would think back to the time about 3 months later when I knew I had to go to church I did not know if the church was open but I went along there was a meeting being held and in I went. When I entered and sat at the back surrounded by Christian speaking a language I had spoke in my bedroom that night. How can I deny hearing the voice of God. Hearing him speak to me through the preacher? How can I deny looking at everyone in the church asking myself do these people know that God is speaking to me? For 1-1/2 hours God spoke to me. Oh how I listened to the tape of that night everyday I listened to the tape this was what God was going to do through me. I can never deny it but don’t know how it will happen. I would never go back to being that drunk, drug taking fisherman. But there was a force in my life that was pulling me ever so slowly to sin.

1996 On an Oil rig in the Gulf of Guinea, West Africa I got before God and prayed. Father help me my life is in a mess. Look at me after all you promised me, Help me get out of this. About six weeks later I got a viral disease of the flesh (Don’t worry it is not life threatening) I remembered what the Holy Spirit said “You’ll be just like Job” Father I cried I am coming back but I don’t want it to be like it was the last time. I want to give you everything I want to die to myself. I want you Father you and you only I want you to come down I don’t want any man I want you. I want you to come down.

Sunday morning in church in Africa, God spoke to me through the preacher’s message can a man pray and will God’s glory come down. He preached out of II Chronicles 7 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt-offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of Jehovah filled the house.

God was speaking again to me. There were some issues I had to confront there was something’s I had done. I just could not sweep under the carpet. My heart could not let me do it. I knew what I should do in my heart and asked God over and over and over and still came up with the same answer. To be honest I did not want to do it, I could lose everything that was important to me. I went on fast eating only vegetables for thirty days praying 3 times a day. This had to get sorted out God will make a way.

I was back in Scotland but it getting close to the time where it was time to leave to go back to Africa. I had a thought what is the difference between a normal everyday Christian and one that does great things for God. I went to look at there testimonies I came across Duncan Campbell testimony (That is when I found out about Sermon Index) I put it onto my MP3 player. On the plane I get my food and then they put the lights out. Out comes the MP3 player as I listen to Duncan as he shares his testimony. I hear Duncan’s voice but the words have the force and power of the Holy Spirit behind them. When I hear these words “Go for God whatever it takes” The tears started to roll down my face. I got up and went to the toilet and began to break down holding onto the sink crying “God I will do it but help me I am scared I don’t want to lose everything”

For the 28 days I was away I spent hours and hours a day on my knees crying out not my will be done but yours. God made me aware of the condition of my heart, to a deep and terrible sense of sin, and an awful feeling of guilt. It lead me to see how vile and unclean and utterly unworthy and, above all, it lead me to realize my utter helplessness without God. I saw that in me there was a force a power that goes deep down into my soul to the very pits of hell. I understood the words of Duncan Campbell “down through the avenues of my personality into the chambers where polluted sin held it’s empire. A power was there to defy and deny every good operating principle in my life - a power rested within that was more than a match for me.”

God did not leave me without any hope. I started to look at Jobs life I saw that in Job 42 v 5 I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth thee. This was Holiness this was what Duncan spoke about Heb 12 v 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. I knew that second blessing which Duncan spoke about was what God wants to do in me. I saw that Job was tested by the Devil but this was biblical, Jesus was taken into the wilderness to be tested, I saw what Jesus said to Peter Luke 31-32 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: but I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not; and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren. Jesus prayed for Peter not that he would not go through the testing the trial but that his faith would not fail during the testing. I knew I was and had been sifted, I saw the condition of my heart but God was showing me away out.

There was also a knowing that I was going to be obedient to God and obey. My heart had submitted to God’s will there was no fight no resistance in me concerning that which I knew I should do. I don’t know how it will happen or how to arrange it but I knew when that moment came I would be obedient. The very first day I am back in Aberdeen I just walk into the situation God had arranged it all. I do what God had placed in my heart to do. Praise God he is so worthy of my praise. Would you be free from the Power of Sin? I love him, I love Jesus. That night I was watching what is called Revelation TV. I had been praying asking about this Holiness. A woman is on TV promoting her book Revival The Challenge of Holiness she was speaking about Duncan Campbell and how that this was the last true revival in this country of ours.
He was a man who was Holy and God used him because of that. She leaves a email address, which I contact her on and she send me a electronic copy of her book before it is published. The Holy Spirit wants me to be Holy and I know I will be just like Job.

Job 42 v 5 I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth thee.

Where am I now what I called in earlier posts Step 2 but there is a day coming I don’t know the date or the time when my eyes will see.

We humans are Spirit, Soul and Body. When we get Born Again (Imparted) our Spirit in made new. Our Soul in not renewed at that stage and this is where the battle rages in our Soul. This is where sin holds its empire. There is a power there to defy and deny every good operating principle in your life - a power rested within that is more than a match for you.

This Soul gets renewed by a process of sanctification (Imputed) but there will come a day when it is totally sanctified. This is what the Duncan Campbell and others speak about. This is called Total Salvation, Second Blessing, Christian Perfection a Pure Heart and Clean Hands and or Holiness.

Hope that helps you understands more clearly.

P
PaulWest

This Soul gets renewed by a process of sanctification (Imputed) [i]but there will come a day when it is totally sanctified.[/i] This is what the Duncan Campbell and others speak about. This is called Total Salvation, Second Blessing, Christian Perfection a Pure Heart and Clean Hands and or Holiness.

Is this "totality" of salvation and sanctification you are speaking of to be anticipated on earth before our glorification with Christ? Did even Paul the Apostle arrive at such a state? As far as I know, the Lord is both our Sanctifier (Exodus 31:13) as well as our Salvation (Psalm 27:1), and He is whole in both areas. Are we sitting in heavenly places with Jesus Christ under "partially sanctified" and "partially salvaged" conditions?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

C
crsschk

Brothers, I apologise if by this I do offend some of you. It is not my intention to offend anybody, but how can I shut my mouth and not speak the wonderful workings of the Lord. How can I say that I love God, and still not keep his commandments? I find it very sad to hear that some of you are living in such a poor state. To hear that a person who has Christ lives in sin. Im I the only one to be greeved over this?

Brother,

That is not the case. This is not a state of willful, continual, 'living in sin', God forbid! Even your suggestion needs repentance frankly. What you had mentioned earlier you did not address, that of 'belonging'...

That's the difference between a child of God, and a child of the Devil.

Again, I suggest this is far too clean cut of a blanket statement. Did you switch allegiance the last time you failed?

That's Why I trully believe that a person can be keept Holly all the rest of his life, following his/her convertion.

And I think this is entirely the wrong way of going about matters. There was someone here fairly recently that had suggested they had not sinned for, I forget just how long, that they were now in effect without sin. I trembled at the possibilities that this brother could be headed for. The statement itself wouldn't have even been uttered in the first place if it was true. It's pride, through and through.

But what you may be thinking or suggesting is very much the problem we have discussing these things in such extremes. We have to back track and re-state matters as to what we do not mean or in this case deny your notion out right.

Some of us are presenting the battles that arise as they arise, the conflict as conflict, the surprises or ambushes, even those things the Lord Himself brings to bear, the searching that He Himself does, a variety of matters. But this is not something of a bemoaning or a constant besetting sin that cannot be thwarted, I do not know that anyone has suggested that in this particular setting.

Maybe this might further explain ...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21685&forum=45&6]A Psalm[/url]

[i]Those who are in trouble of mind may sing this psalm feelingly; those that are not ought to sing it thankfully, blessing God that it is not their case.[/i] ~ Matthew Henry, [i](Commentary on Psalm 88)[/i]

M
murrcolr

PaulWest a reply to your questions

Is this "totality" of salvation and sanctification you are speaking of to be anticipated on earth before our glorification?

I Thessalonians 4 v 3-8 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye abstain from fornication that each one of you know how to possess himself of his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who know not God, that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in the matter: because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. Therefore he that rejecteth, rejecteth not man, but God, who giveth his Holy Spirit unto you.

Hebrews 12 v 14 Follow after sanctification without which no one shall see the Lord.
------------------------------------------------
Did even Paul the Apostle arrive at such a state?

Paul knows it's God's will. See above
------------------------------------------------
As far as I know, the Lord is both my Sanctifier (Exodus 31:13) as well as my Salvation(Psalm 27:1), and He is whole in both areas.

Yes thats right.

------------------------------------------------
Are we sitting in heavenly places with Jesus Christ under "partially sanctified" and "partially salvaged" conditions?


Who shall ascend into the hill of Jehovah?

And who shall stand in his holy place?

He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart;
Who hath not lifted up his soul unto falsehood, And hath not sworn deceitfully.

I can't answer for you is your soul "partially sanctified" or "fully sanctified"

C
crsschk

Hebrews 12 v 14 Follow after sanctification without which no one shall see the Lord.

Heb 12:14

(ASV) Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord:

(ESV) Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

(ISV) Pursue peace with everyone, as well as holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.

(KJV) Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

(KJV+) Follow1377 peace1515 with3326 all3956 men, and2532 holiness,38 without5565 which3739 no man3762 shall see3700 the3588 Lord:2962

(MKJV) Follow peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord;

(RV) Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord:

Not to be too didactic brother and actually it raises something else to this whole mix, that of sanctification and the interchange with holiness.

[b]G38[/b]

ἁγιασμός

hagiasmos

[i]hag-ee-as-mos'[/i]

From G37; properly [i]purification[/i], that is, (the state) [i]purity[/i]; concretely (by Hebraism) a [i]purifier[/i]: - holiness, sanctification.

What grabbed me was the word "The" in the various versions, [i]the sanctification[/i], [i]the state[/i] as it is described. Just something to mull over. But the verse first speaks of following after peace with all men and ... Interesting that they are tied together here.

Read your testimony brother, Praise God.

C
ChrisJD

Hi Murrcolr,


This is the verse you did not qoute,


"For what glory [i]is it[/i], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [i]for it[/i], ye take it patiently, this [i]is[/i] acceptable with God."

- 1Peter chapter 2 verse 20(KJV)

Then he writes "For even hereunto were ye called..."

Peter says also that the Lord Jesus was without guile.


Murrcolr, I noticed in another post you said


"Here's my take on the whole holiness thing."

The scripture says that [b]every[/b] word of God is [b]pure[/b](Proverbs 30:5).


The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000]Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. [/color][/b]


- John chapter 14 verse 10(KJV)

[b][color=660000] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]


- John chapter 8 verse 26(KJV)


[b][color=660000] He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. [/color][/b]


- John chapter 7 verse 18(KJV)

P
psalm1

murrcolr, I have two questions.

1] Did you actually receive the 2nd work or is this still a concept to you.
[I couldn't find in your testimony where you received this work]


2] Could you give me a definition of consecration? And contrast it against sanctification?


David

L
LiveforGod

That is not the case. This is not a state of willful, continual, 'living in sin', God forbid!

Amen Brother. Then is it is not a state of willful sin, then what other type of sin is there?

Would you not agree that all sin is done willingly?

If not all sins are done willingly then please show me. Im all ears, or better said all eyes. :-)

P
psalm1

Liveforgod, Yes you can definitely sin and not know it.

Gossip is a good example. You can talk about a brother or a person to someone and afterward be corrected by the Holy Spirit and and then proceed to repent. [sin]

Many sins of pride are good examples.

To covet anything of your neighbor is sin.
Or just to think a bad thought.


How are we going to usher in revival without repentance?

By your standards there is nothing to repent of.


So actually no need for revival since the sin of lukewarmness and dryness and complacency is not, nor ever will be, part of your testimony.

If i can say I have no sin,then the only question that needs to be asked of me is....."where did you get such a shallow view of holiness and sin?"

Especially since Paul cried from the depths of his being "of whom I am chief" speaking of sinners.

David

M
murrcolr

First, I want you to note that the Trinity, the Triunity of the Godhead, is engaged in this question of our sanctification; and a matter that is of sufficient importance to interest and engage the Trinity should certainly be of sufficient importance to engage our attention.

I Thes. 4:3: "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification." "This is the will of God, your sanctification." The word even is supplied. "Your sanctification." To the obedient child the will of the parent is law. To the obedient child of God the will of God is paramount to everything else. If sanctification is the will of God concerning me, than I am not what God would have me to be until I measure up to that experience. God the Father wills our sanctification.

The next thought is, Christ the Son died to provide our sanctification; turn to:

Heb. 13:12: "Wherefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His Own blood, suffered without the gate." God the Father willed our sanctification, and Christ died to provide our sanctification. The same thought is in:
Eph. 5:25-27: "'Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it; that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish." "God so loved the world;" Christ, also, loved the church, and gave "Himself for it that He might sanctify and cleanse it."

Next you may turn to:

Romans 15:16: "That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the Gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost." "Being sanctified by the Holy Ghost." God wills our sanctification; Christ died to make it possible and to provide our sanctification, and the Holy Ghost is here to execute and accomplish our sanctification.

There is another reference on this same point:

2 Thes. 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks to God alway for you brethren, beloved of
the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." "Chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit." Note that the word Spirit there has a capital "S," signifying the "Holy Spirit." Now it seems to me that if God wills our sanctification, and Christ died to provide our sanctification, and the Holy Spirit is here to accomplish our sanctification, that a man might get sanctified. No man can make an honest pretence of believing the Bible and not believe in sanctification.

The words sanctify, sanctified, and sanctification occur no less than one hundred and fifty-two times; the words cleansing and purity occur no less than six hundred times; the words perfect, perfected, and perfection occur fully one hundred and fifty times; the words holy and holiness occur no less than six hundred times. These terms, all having reference to this identical grace, -- representing different phases of the experience, perhaps, but all treat of the same experience; not less that fifteen hundred references at least upon this subject. When a man says he does not believe in sanctification, he simply says he does not believe the Bible, or else he expresses his ignorance concerning the Bible. Certainly a man might say, "I do not understand it as you do," but you are bound to believe in some sort of sanctification if you believe the Bible.

There are five or six different theories regarding this subject.

The first theory is that sanctification occurs simultaneously with regeneration.

Second, that sanctification is obtained by a gradual development after you are justified.

A third theory is that sanctification occurs at the moment of death, and cannot be experienced until you die.

The fourth theory is that sanctification is a sort of post-mortem affair, and takes place after death.

The fifth theory, -- more properly the first, is that sanctification is a definite experience subsequent to regeneration, conditioned upon entire consecration and faith, -- the privilege of every believer as pardon is the privilege of every penitent-to be experienced and enjoyed in this life.

Now these five theories cover the consensus of opinion of the religious world concerning this subject. We want to investigate and carefully review these theories.

First that sanctification does not occur simultaneously with regeneration but that sanctification is a second experience. Now to prove that we will take a passage that we read a moment ago:

Eph. 5:25-27: "Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave
Himself for it; that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish." "Christ also loved the church." Who constitutes the church? It is the family of God. How do you get into a family, join it? No. You are born into it; so the members of this family, the church, are born of the Spirit, born again, born from above. All members of this church are born from above. There is a difference, you see, between belonging to a church and belonging to the church. Multitudes belong to a church, so-called, a religious organization, -- a sort of mutual admiration society, who do not belong to the church at all. The register of the church is kept in the skies. And it was for this company, this class, -- the church, the ecclesia, or called-out ones, Christ gave Himself, that He might sanctify it and cleanse it. A man becomes a member of the church when he is born again, and not until then does he become eligible to this experience. "Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it."

Take the seventeenth chapter of John. In this chapter Jesus is testifying concerning the disciples. First, "they are not of the world;" three times he repeats that statement. Second, "they are Thine and they are Mine; they are Mine and they are Thine." Third, "they have kept Thy Word." Fourth, "I have kept them." Fifth, "None of them is lost" -- excepting Judas. Sixth, "I am glorified in them." Seventh, "they have known surely that I came out from thee." To know Him is to have life eternal. He is praying for them, as stated clearly in the ninth verse: "I pray for them, I pray not for the world." He is not praying for the world. He says in the seventeenth verse: "Sanctify them through Thy truth; Thy Word is truth." So Jesus evidently believed in sanctification, and He did not believe that they were sanctified when they were told follow me, for He certainly would not pray for something they already had. We learn from this prayer that Jesus believed that Sanctification was a second experience.

I Thes. 4:3: "This is the will of God, even your sanctification." To whom does that apply; to sinners? To backsliders? Let us see what kind of people the Thessalonians were. Turn to the first chapter, -- we will read the entire chapter:
I Thes. 1:1: "Paul and Sylvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." We note that this epistle was addressed to the church "which is in God our Father" -- not to sinners, but to the church.

I Thes. 1:2, 3: "We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers. Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father." "Work of faith, labor of love, patience of hope;" would that indicate that they are sinners?

I Thes. 1:4: "Knowing brethren, beloved, your election of God." They were elected of God.
I Thes. 1:5, 6: "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the Word in much affliction, with joy of the 'Holy Ghost." Followers of the apostles, and followers of the Lord; "received the Word in much affliction, with joy."

1 Thes. 1:7: "So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia." Not ensamples only to sinners ' but "ensamples to all that believe." They were most exemplary Christians, and "ensamples to all that believe in 'Macedonia and Achaia."

I Thes. 1:8. "For from you sounded out the Word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak anything." "In every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad".

I Thes. 1:9: "For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God." They had turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God."
I Thes. 1:10: "And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus Christ, which delivered us from the wrath to come." "Delivered us from the wrath to come."

Let us recapitulate just a moment:

First: They constituted the church at Thessalonica.

Second: Paul rejoiced in them.

Third: They had "works of faith," "labor of love," "patience of hope."

Fourth: "Elected of God."

Fifth: They had received the Word with much joy through much affliction.

Sixth: They were followers of the Apostles and of the Lord.

Seventh: They were "ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia."

Eighth: Their faith was generally acknowledged and commented upon.

Ninth: They had turned from idols to serve and worship the true and living God.

Tenth: They had been delivered from the wrath to come.

Were they Christians? Were they converted? To that class He says: This is the will of God, even your sanctification." But, you say, possibly they are backslidden; so turn to:

I Thes. 3:6: "But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you." Brother Timotheus had paid them a visit, and Paul had wanted to know his opinion about them. He brought us good tidings of your "Martha Washington Tea Party," and your "Oyster Supper," and your "Broom Drill," and your "Ice Cream festival," and your "necktie-socials." All that sounds too modern! That is the report that would suit some churches, no doubt. But Timotheus "brought us good tiding of your faith and charity," -- the two cardinal graces.

I Thes. 3:7, 8, 9, 10: "Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith; for now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord. For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sake before our God; night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith." What does he want to see their faces for, and praying so earnestly, "by night and by day exceedingly," -- what for?
Something still "lacking in your faith." They evidently did not get all at conversion.

I Thes. 3:13: "To the end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, with all His saints." "To the end that He might stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness." They did not get it when they were converted; and, to show that they were not backslidden, take:

I Thes. 5:5: "Ye are all the children of light and the children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of the darkness." "Ye are ALL the children of light and children of the day." According to that there was not a single backslider among them.

He concludes the epistle by a prayer:

I Thes. 5:23:24: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." "Faithful is He that calleth you, Who also will do it." Not, "Who also did do it?" "Who also will do it." Would Paul pray for something they already had? It would seem to me that nothing could be clearer than that they were not sanctified when they were converted. Paul believed sanctification was a second experience. "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly, -- and preserve you blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." "Faithful is He that calleth you, Who also will do it."
Sometimes there are ministers who preach that we are sanctified when we are converted, and yet they would not be heard to say to sinners: You come to the altar and let the Lord sanctify you. Not a preacher would think of inviting sinners to come to the altar to seek sanctification; it does not come to sinners.

The next theory is, that you may obtain it by growth. There is a growth in the grace of justification, and there is a growth in the grace of sanctification, but there is not a growing into either. Why may you not grow into justification or regeneration? Because it is something which God must do for you, -- a divine act. Why may not a man grow into sanctification? For the same reason: it is a divine act, the act of divine grace: "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly.""Jesus, also, that He might sanctify the people, suffered without the gate." You cannot grow into something which God must do for you.

If it were by growth, then time would be a factor, for it requires time to grow. If time is a factor in our sanctification, the question would naturally arise: how much time is required? Suppose that men might grow into sanctification in two years; this would be a very short period; very well. That man has been growing just one year into sanctification, and, at the expiration of one year, he dies; just grew half way there; then what about the other half? The Lord would have to fix the other half up instantaneously. If He had to fix up the last half instantaneously, why not fix up the first half instantaneously. And again, if by growth, there must be degrees in sanctification: some would be a little sanctified, some would be more sanctified, and some would be most sanctified, determined by the length of time they had been growing; it would be hard to tell the class to which they belong.

Did you ever meet persons who testified that they had been growing so many years and had grown into sanctification? Did you ever meet such a person? Or did you ever see a person who had met a person who testified he had grown into sanctification? Did you ever see a person that had met a person that had ever heard of a person that had grown into sanctification? No, and you never will. They cannot be found.

Friends, the answer simply is that you cannot grow into something which God must do for you.

There is a gradual approach to sanctification on the human side: there is the consecration, the yielding to God, and seeking the blessing, just as the gradual approach to the experience of justification. But when a man comes to the point, and meets the conditions, and, when he believes that God does the work, God does it instantaneously.

The third theory: We obtain it at death. That death has any saving power we deny. Death has no saving power. Death is an enemy, a result of sin; death can never sanctify you. Now that some people have been sanctified at the moment of death we admit; but, if they were sanctified at death, they were sanctified as a second experience; and, if they were sanctified at death, it was the blood that sanctified them. Well, has the blood more power at death than when a man is living? If the blood can cleanse me when I AM dying, why not while I am living?

Now if you insist that you get it when you die, and cannot get it before, turn to: Jude 1: "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." "Sanctified by death?" No. "Sanctified by God the Father?" Exactly. If they did not get sanctified until they died, this letter must have been written after they were dead, and addressed to their tomb-stones and forwarded to some cemetery. For, if it was written after they were sanctified, and if they were not sanctified until they were dead, we must conclude that this letter was written to be put on their tomb-stones, and set up in some graveyard. Do you believe that? I don't. According to this letter some folks have it before they die.

Then we come to the other theory: It is a postmortem experience, -- you get it after death. That is the theory of our Catholic friends. They believe in a second blessing, -- all of them. They believe that in going to the confessional, and confessing their sins to the priest they will be absolved from guilt. But there is something which the priest cannot do, so, in view of that, they have fixed up the purgatory theory. But the difficulty about purgatory is to locate it; nobody seems to know where the place is. And I notice that the time they leave a person in purgatory depends somewhat upon the size of his purse; if one has plenty of money, I notice they will pray him through more quickly, while they will let the other fellow sweat awhile. I am too poor to go that route, -- I am afraid they would let me sweat.

It is nonsense. There is not a word in scriptures to hold out such a thought. But in that very theory they recognize the fact that there is something more needed than pardon; they need a purging; while the priest may forgive, it takes purgatory fires to purge them. I believe in purging, but with the fire of the Holy Ghost.

Matt. 23:19: "Ye fools and blind; for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?" It is the altar that sanctifieth the gift. That is taken from the Old Testament: Exodus 29:37: "Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy; whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy." "Whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy." The thought is that we do not offer on altars of wood and stone; Christ is our altar. We do not bring lambs, and goats, etc., we bring ourselves, -- laying ourselves upon the altar of God, "Which is your reasonable service. Anything short of that is unreasonable. This is consecration.

Acts 26:18: "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." "Sanctified by f-a-i-t-h growth?" F-a-i-t-h death? F-a-i-t-h purgatory? "Sanctified by f-a-i-t-h, FAITH." "The altar sanctifieth the gift," then I must lay all upon the altar; what then? By faith trust God to do the work.

Just a few points as to what sanctification. is not: It is not an experience where you could not sin if you wanted to; we do not say that the possibility to sin is removed; we do not say that a man has not power to sin, but we do say that he may have power not to sin.

It is not an experience where a man is exempt from temptation. Temptation is not sin; to be tempted is no sin; it is the yielding to the temptation that brings sin.

I Cor. 10:13: "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man; but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able, but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." We know we are tempted, and we believe "God is faithful, and will make a way of escape that we may be able to bear it." To be tempted is no sin. Christ was tempted; but why should we yield, since "God is faithful and makes a way of escape?"

Again: Sanctification is not an experience where we become infallible and cease to make mistakes.

I am are sorry to admit sanctified people make mistakes. We need to distinguish between mistake and sin: a mistake is a thing of the head, not of the heart, while a sin is a thing of the heart. A mistake is a thing you did when you knew no better; a sin is a thing you did when you did know better. A mistake is not a sin. The motive determines the morality of the act. So you see how one man might do a certain act and be wholly innocent, and another man do exactly the same thing and be guilty: A mother by mistake administers a deadly poison to her sick babe, thinking it was a curative, a remedy; it was purely, wholly a mistake. The child dies, and she is frantic with grief, and is an object of pity. That same mother might administer the poison with intent, and she is a murderess. The motive determines the morality of the act.

Now, a few of the advantages accruing from this blessing.

The benefits of sanctification are innumerable.

Take: I Thes. 5:23: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."' I want you to see that the sanctifying grace precedes the preserving grace. That the preserving grace is coupled with sanctifying grace.

Jude 1: "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." "Sanctified by God the Father, and preserved." Notice that the preserving grace is coupled with the sanctifying grace. Preserved means: "you are done up so that you will keep." That is the object of preserving. So many folks don't keep. The fact is logical, as well as scriptural. Preserved. The trouble is people want to be preserved without being made whole. God wants to take out all carnality, all unsoundness. Then it takes fire to be preserved, to get to the boiling point. God wants to preserve you so that you will keep in any climate; not pickled, but preserved. Preserved includes the thought of firmness, constancy, stability, steadfastness. What is the thing that causes fluctuation, vacillation, and the up and down experience. God means to get you where you will stand, by removing the thing that causes that up and down life.

Take another passage to show the advantage of sanctification:

Mark 8:22, 23, 24: "And He cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto Him, and besought Him to touch him. And He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the town, and when He had spit on his eyes, and put His hands upon him, He asked him if he saw ought. And he looked up and said, "I see men as trees walking." Yes, he had one touch, he could see, but he saw men as trees walking.

Suppose you preach a second blessing to him. My, he had such a powerful experience t he saw men as trees, and they were walking. If one touch would make men as tall as trees, two touches might make them twice as tall. How could that be?

Mark 8:25: "After that He put His hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up, and he was restored, and saw every man clearly."

"Clearly!" He did not see men twice as tall as trees, but saw every man clearly. He got the second touch. People say they don't believe in a half-way work. Well, that first touch looks like half-way work. He could have opened those eyes with one touch, but He wanted to show that it was necessary to have a second touch in order to see clearly, and that the second touch gives a clarified vision.

"The pure in heart shall see God." "If thine eye be single thy whole body shall be full of light." It requires a second touch in order to see clearly.

The second blessing you can see it taught everywhere, and before you heard of it you could not see it anywhere.

2 Timothy 2:21: "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified and meet for the Master's use, and prepared unto every good work." The thought is: Sanctified and meet for the Master's use -- and prepared unto every good work." It is a preparation and qualification for service.

One more:

Hebrews 2:11: "For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren." "He that sanctifieth." According to that there is some one engaged in the work. "He that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified." According to that there are some that are sanctified. And "they are all of one." That is the beauty of sanctification; it means unity, and oneness with Him. "For which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren." Because you have the family resemblance. Praise God! Unity, oneness with Him. O, the benefits of sanctification are innumerable.

The words "sanctify" and "sanctification" are made from the Latin adjective sanctus (meaning "holy") and the Latin verb facere (meaning "to make") and the suffix "tion" always meaning "the act of." So the root meaning of the word plainly means and signifies the act of making holy.

Standard Dictionary: Sanctify: -- "To make holy; rendered sacred or morally or spiritually pure; cleansed from sin . . . sanctification; specifically in Theology, the gracious work of the Holy Spirit whereby the believer is freed from sin and exalted to holiness of heart and life." "Whereby the believer is freed from sin."

According to this, sanctification is an experience for believers -- not for sinners.

This would make sanctification a second experience. "The gracious work of the Holy Spirit" -- not of works, nor growth, nor death, nor purgatory, but a work of God divinely inwrought by the Holy Spirit.

C
ChrisJD

Hi everyone,


Murrcolr, you said

"Again: Sanctification is not an experience where we become infallible and cease to make mistakes.

I am are sorry to admit sanctified people make mistakes."

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? [/color][/b]

- John chapter 10 verse 36(KJV)


[b][color=660000] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? [/color][/b]

- John chapter 8 verse 46(KJV)

And the people said of Him


"He hath done all things well" See Mark 7:37.

And the scripture also says in the 18th Psalm


[i]As for[/i] God, his way [i]is[/i] perfect


Strong's says this word [i]perfect[/i] is


H8549
תּמים
tâmîym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.


M
murrcolr

‘One thing that convinced me of the possibility of this blessing was the changed life of my brother, James. I witnessed the reality of the experience into which he entered, and his testimony was used of God to convince me of the truth, the blessedness and the power of a fully surrendered life. Then, after months of heart searching and of counting the cost, the night came when I, too, yielded all that I had entirely to God.

Christians get wonderful and beautiful blessings at conventions and meetings, but often these do not last because they do not allow the Holy Spirit to get to the depth of their being, to search them out, and to turn His hand upon them to purge away their dross. The heart is meant for God’s possession and indwelling, but it is only after a thorough work by the Spirit in the inner man that Christ can really come to ‘dwell’ or ‘settle down’ in the heart. I have always felt the expression, ‘a clean heart’ to be descriptive of the thoroughness of the work that God waits to do within us.’

‘When the Fire Fell’ by John G Govan
-------------------------------------------------

Don't let the poison that still lurks in your inner most parts stop you from hearing the truth you are being told.

Ye shall be holy; for I the Lord your God am holy’

M
murrcolr

Can anyone explain this to me.

John 20 V 21-22 Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace be unto you: as the Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2 1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place.
And suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

-------------------------------------------------

II Corinthians 7 v 1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

S
sermonindex

You may find [i]one[/i] answer in the following thread called 'A most important work' in which MikeB posted the link to a short book by GW North.

If you search for the word 'breathe' it throws up a several pages. The main thrust of the start of the book, is to establish the perfection of Jesus, and that He was on target to die for us, because if there had been anything [i]wrong[/i] with Him, the sacrifice of His life would not have wrought the desired propitiation for sin. (That's my paraphrase.)


[url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/details.php?file=43]The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit in Romans (look at p9)[/url]


I don't know if this answer will satisfy you, but it makes a distinction between the events in John and those in Acts, giving both a place.

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