The Church and The Tribulation -- Zac Poonen

This article contains great comfort and encouragement!

[b]The Church and The Tribulation -- Zac Poonen[/b]

We are told in Eph. 3:10 that in the new covenant, God desires to manifest His wisdom through the church to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. From Eph. 6:12, we know that these rulers and authorities in the heavenly places are Satan and his hosts of wickedness who dwell in the second heaven (where they dwell ever since being cast down out of the third heaven, where God dwells - 2 Cor. 12:2)

We know that we are to be Christ's witnesses unto all men. But here we are told that we have to have a testimony to the evil spirits too. What testimony is this? It is a testimony to the wisdom of God (Eph. 3:10). It is the joyful confession of our spirits that God has ordered everything in our lives according to His perfect wisdom. It is the testimony of lives that have partaken of the wisdom that is from above.

In the book of Job, we read of the witness that Job was to Satan, by his life. When Satan came into the presence of God, after touring the earth, God asked him if he had observed the uprightness of Job's life (Job 1:8). Satan's reply was that Job feared God because of the three hedges that God had put around Job. Satan knew that there was a hedge around Job's person, another hedge around his family and a third hedge around Job's possessions (v. 10). Many believers do not know about this threefold hedge that God has put around the disciples of Jesus. Those who fulfil the threefold condition of discipleship mentioned in Lk. 14:26-33 will find that God puts a hedge around each area surrendered to the Lord - possessions, loved ones and one's own life.

But then we read that God opened up these hedges around Job, one by one, so that Satan could go through them and attack Job's possessions, his loved ones and his body. This was in order that Job's character could be demonstrated by God to Satan.

From this we learn that Satan cannot touch a disciple of Jesus or anything that he has, without first getting God's permission. This is a very important truth for us to be established in - and we shall see the need for this even more in the days to come. The true church of Jesus Christ will be called to suffer in the coming days, as in the early centuries. Before that time comes upon us, we must be established in this truth first of all - that there is a threefold hedge around the wholehearted disciples of Jesus that no one can come through, unless God Himself opens up that hedge and permits Satan to do so.

The other lesson that we can learn from Job is that our own loved ones and religious Christians will criticise and condemn us. In Job's case, his wife and three religious leaders (Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar) misunderstood and criticised him. That too was permitted by God. Our loved ones will become our foes and religious people will misunderstand and criticise us - because God has opened the hedges and allowed them to do so.

Job humbled himself and said - "Naked I came from my mother's womb and naked I shall return. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). He was a true disciple - for he possessed nothing. He recognised that everything he had belonged to the Lord rightfully and that the Lord had as much right to give them as to take them away. Those who are not disciples think of blessing only in terms of God giving them things. Those who are disciples recognise that it is just as much blessing - perhaps even more - when God takes them away. Thus we can know whether we are disciples or not.

The sad thing was that Job could not endure in this bold confession until the end. After a while, he wilted and weakened under the continued pressure of trial, and began to complain against God. From chapter 3 to chapter 31, we see the sad spectacle of Job going up and down - sometimes rising to great heights in his confession of faith and at other times sinking down to the depths of despair, grumbling and self justification. This is the experience of old covenant people.

But now God has promised us something better in the new covenant - as we read in Heb. 11:40. That is described in the succeeding verses of Hebrews 12:1-13) that we can follow Jesus who endured until the very end triumphantly.

Today we are followers, not of Job, but of Jesus - and whatever the trial, we can be overcomers until the very end, through the power of God's grace and be a witness to Satan. We cannot criticise Job, for he lived in a time when grace had not come and the Holy Spirit had not been given, The new covenant had not been established, etc. Considering the limitations of the time he lived in, he did extremely well - so well that God commends him three times (Job. 1:8;2:3;42:7).

We however can follow Jesus - the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Jesus passed through the university of suffering and there obtained the certificate of perfect obedience. And now He has become a Professor in the same university to teach obedience to all who are willing to enroll (Heb. 5:8,9). There is no compulsion here, as there was under the old covenant, with its 'Thou shalt's. No. But the Spirit and the bride say, "Come, join this university". No one can be a disciple who does not join this university - for this is the only place where disciples are trained.

Jesus told His disciples very clearly that in the world they would face tribulation. But they were not to fear this, for He had overcome the world and its ruler; and therefore they could be overcomers too (Jn. 16:33).

Jesus has many admirers today but few followers. He never called people to admire Him but only to follow Him. And if we follow Him, then we shall no longer belong to this world. And then the world will surely hate us.

Jesus said that the world would love only those who belonged to it (Jn. 15:19).

One clear and unmistakable mark of our being the disciples of Jesus is that the world hates us. "If they have persecuted Me", Jesus said, "then they will persecute you as well" (Jn. 15:20).

The second clear mark of the disciples of Jesus is that they love those who hate and persecute them (Matt. 5:44-48). By these two marks all those who have ears to hear God's truth can examine their own position, and know the truth concerning themselves.

If you are popular with worldly people or with religious Christians (who are not wholehearted disciples), you can be absolutely certain that you are a compromiser. It could even be that you are not converted.

Why did the world hate Jesus? Not because He paid His taxes and washed people's feet; not even because He lived a holy life. The world hated Him because He exposed its hypocrisy. He also exposed unscriptural traditions among God's people. So those who wanted to preserve "the traditions of the elders" hated Him too. That will be our fate as well, if we speak as He spoke. If we seek the honour of men and of religious elders, we shall keep quiet and remain popular. We can each choose the way we would like to go.

In Rev. 12, we read of Satan being enraged with certain people. There we read of him first trying to devour the Man-child (Jesus Christ) that the woman (Israel) had brought forth into the world. Satan could not succeed there, and the Man-child grew up, completed His ministry and ascended up to the throne of God (Rev. 12:4,5). Satan's fury is now directed against the younger brothers of this Man-child. These are described as those "who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17 b). These are the disciples of Jesus whose life is characterised by total obedience to the commandments of God and who boldly hold fast to the testimony of Jesus. They open their mouths, speaking about everything that Jesus Himself testified to - for this is "the testimony of Jesus". There are very few like these on earth today, for there are very few churches in the world now preaching total obedience to God's commandments.

Rev. 12 is referring to the last days of this present age, when Satan will be cast down from the second heaven to earth for the last three and a half years just before Jesus comes again (v. 9). At that time there will be on earth those who keep God's commandments and hold boldly to the testimony of Jesus and who overcame Satan (v. 11). These are God's 'commandos' - the elite troops of His army on earth.

It will be a tremendous privilege and honour to be among them - most of whom will have to lay down their physical lives for Jesus' sake. Rev. 13:7 makes it clear that the Antichrist will be permitted by God to kill the disciples of Jesus. But remember that it is God who opens the hedges. Otherwise no one could touch us. This is why we do not fear.

Job could say, "God knows every detail concerning me" (Job 23:10). Under the new covenant, we can go even further and say, "God plans every detail concerning me" - for this is the plain meaning of Romans 8:28. It is also true that even at such a time, God being faithful will never allow us to be tested beyond our ability. With every trial, He will make a way for us to overcome and escape from sinning and denying Him (1 Cor. 10:13). His grace will prove to be sufficient even then (2 Co. 12:9); otherwise none of us could stand. It is not the naturally courageous who will stand in that day - but the naturally fearful, who trust in the Lord to strengthen them.

Those will be the days of great tribulation, when the Antichrist is ruling. But Jesus said that God has limited the duration of that period "for the sake of His elect" (Matt. 24:21,22). God's elect (the church) will therefore obviously be here on earth at that time, witnessing for the Lord. "Immediately after the tribulation", Jesus said, "the Son of Man will appear in the sky and He will send His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect" (Matt. 24:29-31). The trumpet that Jesus referred to here is the one mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:16,17; at which the dead in Christ will rise, and together with the living disciples of Jesus will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air.

Jesus made it clear in the above verse, that the church (the elect) would experience this rapture only "after the great tribulation". Then we shall welcome the Lord in the air at His second coming and return with Him to earth to reign with Him for one thousand years. God's Word is clear as to who will reign with Christ for 1000 years. Those "who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand" (Rev. 20:4). This clearly shows that the overcomers (the bride of Christ) will be on earth, standing true to the Lord, during the reign of the Antichrist.

Tribulation is something that comes from men who are instigated by Satan against the church. This must be distinguished from God's wrath which is reserved for the ungodly. We shall not face the wrath of God, but we shall certainly face great tribulation from men. The blessing for God's people under the old covenant was prosperity and ease. Under the new covenant, it is adversity - suffering and tribulation.

When Jesus faced death He did not say, "Father, save Me from this hour", but, "Father, glorify Thy name" (Jn. 12:27,28). The song of the harlot is, "Father, save me from tribulation". The song of the bride is, "Father, glorify Thy name". "We exult in tribulations". "Through much tribulation we enter the kingdom of God" (Rom. 5:3; Acts 14:22).

Jesus specifically prayed to the Father that we should not be taken out of the world, but that we should be kept from sin (Jn. 17:15). Jesus never desired that His bride should be raptured away to escape tribulation.

In the mid-1800s, a new doctrine arose in Christendom (which was not heard of in the days of the apostles) that Christ would come secretly and take away all believers so that they would not have to face the great tribulation. This doctrine made it look as though persecution from men was a punishment from God! Not surprisingly, this doctrine arose, not in countries where Christians were being persecuted, but in England, that had not seen any persecution of Christians for centuries. Scripture was then twisted by many to fit this doctrine. Thus Satan succeeded in lulling Christians into a false comfort, so that they would be unprepared for the tribulation when it does come upon them.

Since the prayers of most Christians are basically of this order, "Lord, make my life more comfortable on earth", it is not at all surprising that multitudes of Christians around the world happily accepted this teaching about escaping tribulation. Those who have absorbed the teaching of Jesus however understand clearly that there is no virtue in escaping persecution or tribulation. On the contrary, Jesus constantly told His disciples that they would face tribulation and persecution in the world.

There are some who teach that Christ will take away the wholehearted, leaving the halfhearted to face the Antichrist. This seems to imply that escaping persecution is a reward that God gives to the faithful! No sensible General would send his second class troops to the battle front and keep his first class troops at home! It is unimaginable that God would take away His best soldiers from earth at a time when He needs their witness the most.

It is clear from Scripture that those who oppose the Antichrist are those "who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17). These are certainly not the halfhearted. On the contrary, they are the overcomers, whose names are in the book of life (Rev. 13:8;2:5). Satan is not enraged at halfhearted Christians, but at the wholehearted. Today, Satan is furious with those who preach total obedience to the commandments of God. His prime targets are those who obey all of God's commandments and who preach and teach such obedience to others. This is why Paul earnestly requested all believers to pray for him - for he knew that he was one of Satan's prime targets. We too must pray today for those who preach total obedience to God, that they may be protected.

In the first three centuries, when fierce persecution raged against the Christians, God did not take them out of their tribulations. They were eaten by lions and burnt at the stake. There was no secret rapture in those Roman arenas when the disciples of Jesus were slain. The God who shut the lions' mouths and took away the power of the fiery furnace in Daniel's day did not do such miracles for the wholehearted disciples of Jesus in the first three centuries - for these were new covenant Christians who were to glorify God in the fire. It will be the same for the disciples of Jesus in the last century, before Jesus comes. God's first class troops stood true to Him in the first century - until the very end. They did not ask for, or expect, twelve legions of angels to come and snatch them away.

God watched the bride of His Son being torn to pieces by lions and being burnt at the stake, and He was glorified in their testimony - for they had followed the Lamb wherever He went, even unto a violent physical death. The only word that Jesus spoke to them was, "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life".

Encouragement In Tribulation

"I, John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet" (Rev.1:9,10).

Here in the book of Revelation, John refers to himself as a "fellow-partaker in the tribulation which is in Jesus". Every wholehearted disciple of Jesus should be prepared to partake in the "tribulation which is in Jesus" as long as he is in this world.

John did not get this revelation (unveiling) while living in comfort somewhere. He received it, while experiencing tribulation at Patmos, because he had been faithful to "the word of God and the testimony of Jesus" (v.9). He had to experience tribulation himself in order to be able to write about the saints experiencing the great tribulation from the Antichrist in the last days. God takes us through trials and tribulations first before giving us a ministry to others who are facing tribulation.

Paul said, "God encourages us in all our affliction so that we may be able to encourage those who are in any affliction with the (same) encouragement with which we ourselves are encouraged by God" (2 Cor.1:4 - Amplified).

It is not surprising therefore that the doctrine that Jesus would come secretly and take His church out of the world, before the great tribulation, arose for the first time (as we just saw) in a country where Christians were living in comfort, and where they were not facing any persecution at all. Today this doctrine continues to be proclaimed and believed by Christians who live in ease and comfort, in countries where there is no persecution against Christians.

However the words of Jesus are clear: "In the world YOU HAVE TRIBULATION. But take courage; I have overcome the world" (Jn.16:33). He never promised that we would escape tribulation - whether small tribulations or the great one. But He did say that we could overcome even as He overcame. He is far more interested in making us overcomers than in saving us out of tribulation, because He is far more interested in our character than in our comfort.

Jesus also said that those who forsook everything to follow Him would have even more tribulations than others who didn’t follow Him (Mk.10:30).

When He prayed to His Father for His disciples, He said, "I do not ask Thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil." (Jn.17:15). He did NOT want His disciples to be raptured out of the world at that time, just because they were going to face tribulation.

Even today, when the disciples of Jesus are being tortured and persecuted for His Name in many lands, the Lord does not take them away from the earth. And He will not rapture us to heaven before the great tribulation either. He will do something far better. He will make us overcomers in the midst of the great tribulation.

Jesus is far more interested in saving us from evil than in saving us from tribulation. He permits us to go through tribulation because He knows that that is the only way that we can become spiritually strong.

Such a message is strange teaching indeed to a comfort-loving Christendom that has been coddled in their pews every Sunday for years by ear-tickling preachers. But this is the message that the apostles preached to the early churches. "They (the apostles Paul and Barnabas) strengthened the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God’" (Acts 14:22).

John speaks here about being a "fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus" (v.9). We have to enter into fellowship with Jesus in tribulation first, before we can share His throne with Him in His kingdom.

Perseverance is a great virtue that is emphasised throughout the New Testament. Jesus Himself said "They will deliver you to tribulation..... but the one who endures to the end shall be saved" (Mt.24:13).

But in order to be faithful in that future day of the Antichrist, we have to learn to be faithful in the little temptations and trials that come our way today. This is why it is essential that we learn faithfulness in the hidden life - when we are tempted in the secret places of our life, in our thoughts, attitudes, motives, in money matters, etc. These are little matters; but only if we are faithful in the little, will we be faithful in the great things, one day. If we are unfaithful in the little things, we will be unfaithful to the Lord in the day of tribulation as well. If we cannot run with men now, how will we run with horses then? If we are not faithful in a time of ease, how will we be faithful in a time of trouble? (Jer. 12:5).

God seeks to train us today to be His commando troops in that soon coming future day.

I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10). also luke 21;36 says'...........watch therefore and pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the son of man.

You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns. [Todd Strandberg)

David

Brother David,

I am not wise. I have been deceived by men from the time I recited the so-called "sinner's prayer" 24 mournfully wasted years ago. Only last month did I come to know the Truth. It's been incredibly difficult, and tearful, to be shaken and have everything I know be tested. I have even lost my best friend.

For 24 years I have believed in pre-tribulation. But, I must confess that I never studied and sought the Lord in this matter for myself. It sounded good and it's what I wanted to believe, so I did, without hesitation. I can't wisely speak on the matter.

Right now, I have resolved that I don't know anything but that the Lord was crucified and rose again, conquering death. He did it because of the Father's great love for me. Jesus obeyed the Father, doing His will, unto death. I'm a slave, bought with a great price, who has been set free from a deceitful and abusive master. All I know is that I must follow Him, as His slave, even unto death. I'm compelled. If I must endure the Great Tribulation, then I will do so with His name on my lips. If I am spared the Great Tribulation, His name will be praised from my lips. So, the way I see it, all I must seek to do is please Him in whatever circumstances come.

I don't know if pre-tribulation or post-tribulation or any other doctrinal theory is the correct one. Not until I seek God for myself. I have no more trust for men in these matters. All I know is that scripture says that in this world, we [i]will have[/i] tribulation. It is to[i] that[/i], that this article speaks the victory to me.

God bless you and keep you.

psalm1 wrote:
I hate to be the bearer of good news...

David, the good news are not that God will spare you out of tribulation, but that He will get you [i]through[/i] tribulation! And even if you lose your head, you will be still victorious because of our Lord Jesus victory on the cross! And you will reign with Him forever! Remember the words, and never forget them:

Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
Dan 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Don't you think that is time for you and all of us together to loose the plastic cross of the wordily christianiy which promises no suffering and tribulations and just laughing and dancing through the narrow way and to grasp the old ragged wooden cross on which you also loose every right of yours and joining the suffering of our Lord? (I'm writing you directly because in other thread you said that you like brotherly rebuke)

May God bless your heart,
Kire

simpleliving, God bless you too and that is some testimony.
How did you loose your best friend?
I have lost several friends over the years and I know it hurts deeply.

I agree it is best to seek God for revelation on truth.
I have caught many preachers making unbiblical statements.
I am in extreme minority here in my stand on the pretrib rapture and it doesnt matter to me if the whole world disagrees with me.

I have had my nose in the bible for 30 years and have found the post trib rapture to be an impossibility.

David

Hi bro Kire, I was referring to scripture not the consensus of the worldly Christianity.
It actually is the doctrine of post trib rapture that looks outside scripture to take their position.

Note the outrageous foundations of statements like"Tim lahaye lies" or "we reject the pre trib view because most of the church believes in pretrib so we know it must be wrong" or "a little girls dream way back ...."

This is silly to me and yet I am the one accused of "shaky ground"?

Have you ever heard any post trib scholar mention the bride groom?

David

Hello David, this is really interesting situation.

Keith shared:

For [b]24 years[/b] I have believed in pre-tribulation. But, I must confess that I never studied and sought the Lord in this matter for myself. It sounded good and it's what I wanted to believe, so I did, without hesitation.

You shared:

I have had my nose in the bible for [b]30 years[/b] and have found the post trib rapture to be an impossibility.

Would you allow the possibility that on the 31-th year the Lord could reveal to you that you have been wrong all the time?

Paul said:

1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

And don't get me wrong, I don't believe that this is life or death question, there are much more important questions. But I can see the fruits of this doctrine are not good and that's my concern. And if this doctrine is bad, then it is also unavoidable the bearing of bad fruits from it. Sooner or later, in one area of the life or other.

Kire

The only one 100% right is God.
So if he says it I suppose you need to take it up with him.
And yes you are right I am desperately lacking compared to God but maybe on A good day i could give someone a run for their money.
Just kidding!

However I am able to put on my "oppositions" shoes and search diligently to explore every avenue. And I have done just that and i find the post trib position as the most lacking of all.
There are several point of interest that absolutely dont fit in the post trib position.

David

No matter what our beliefs are regarding the Great Tribulation, we do know it will happen. We will also have tribulations leading up to that time. The Bible promises us that tribulation is part of the Christian's life. But the tribulations aren't what's important.

What is important is that God has provided everything we need to endure to the end, which is victory! Job was an amazing man who endured so much and kept the praises of God on his lips during times that would have defeated most men, especially today. He didn't endure to the end, rather he was up and down. But Job didn't have grace, like we do today. We have the promise of the Holy Spirit!

This is what's important! The new covenant is a blessing and God has provided exactly what we need no matter what tribulations we go through, great or small! This is what I wanted to encourage my brothers and sisters with. To endure for His glory!

As God used Job as a witness to Satan, let Him also commend us! If we take the route of debate from this, instead of the promise of victory, giving glory to God, then we divide ourselves and are no witness at all. We just show that our desire to be right means more. No man is perfect, but we know the One who is and He makes Himself available to us!

Praise Jesus!!

2ti 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

Note the statement "will suffer" Not might or perhaps.

Poonen wrote:

However the words of Jesus are clear: "In the world YOU HAVE TRIBULATION. But take courage; I have overcome the world" (Jn.16:33). He never promised that we would escape tribulation - whether small tribulations or the great one. But He did say that we could overcome even as He overcame. He is far more interested in making us overcomers than in saving us out of tribulation, because He is far more interested in our character than in our comfort.

It can't be put much more plainly than that. the confusion with most people is that they can not differentiate between tribulation and God's wrath.

Tribulation and suffering is to be expected and even met joyfully by by the saints. It comes from the worlds hatred of Christ. The saints are not subject to Gods wrath.

1th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

These are two different situations entirely.

As for a secret "rapture" Jesus warns us about this right here.

Mt 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mt 24:25 "See, I have told you beforehand.
Mt 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
Mt 24:27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The whole world will know when HE comes.

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

hisremnant, If you are in India then you must have heard that Christians are heavily persecuted by Hindus.

I dont understand using fairness as a basis for studying Gods word. That somehow it isn't fair to say the 5 wise virgins dont go through the tribulation.

If we use this method of interpretation then God owes Uzzah (in theory) an apology.

I have never seen the word" secret " used in connection with the rapture.And yet another catch phrase used by anti pre trib debators.

The reason I say the rapture is impossible at the end of the tribulation is because of the many objections to such a notion.

Now if you take the position of the second coming as a single event then I can see why you espouse this doctrine.
The second coming is twofold.

He comes for his bride before the tribulation.
This is the picture the 10virgins points to. The five foolish stay behind.
The wise go on to heaven with the groom.
By rev 19 or 20 they are no longer the bride they are the wife. It is them they return with the Lord on the white horses. The wedding supper having been completed in heaven.
Now he comes not for the church as a groom but as a conquering king.
The ones left behind are martyred by Antichrist, however some defect and take the mark.
The martyrs are there on the white horses with the raptured saints.
The martyrs also get to heaven and also attend the wedding supper.
The reason it would be impossible for a post trib rapture is you cannot make every event fit into a single coming at the end of the tribulation period.

I believe the scriptures pointing to the pretrib rapture need to be reconciled.

It is not that i am locked into a false interpretation. My position has been taken after years of study and putting myself in the shoes of the post trib position.
Post trib has way too many loose ends.

Just lay aside the word tribulation and look at the bridegroom.
This is the angle that separates us.

The tribulation is Gods purpose.[it has purpose]
The wedding of the bride and groom is second only to Hebrews 9. [our high priest presenting his blood to the father}

The culmination of the bride in heaven and the wedding and wedding supper.

In matt Jesus said "I will not drink with you again until that day when I drink it new with you in my fathers kingdom.

Just the marriage supper alone is reason the post trib rapture doesnt fit at all.

So it would appear that the post trib position leaves out key elements?

David

John, What part of Iraq are you in? Are you in the military?

Anyway may God bless you and protect you.

It must be awesome being there.

David

You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns. [Todd Strandberg)

I think it's interesting that he seems to infer that the reason some don't believe in a pre-trib rapture is only because they have "the desire to go through the tribulation." Wouldn't it be more natural to want to be delivered from pain or persecution rather than go through it? I think most would agree with that statement. How do we know that those who believe in a pre-trib rapture aren't just going off a natural feeling rather than scriptural revelation? It's more illogical to believe a doctrine out of feeling or fear than it is to believe it on the basis of revelation.

I realize that can come off a little offensive because it imputes ill motives to someone, but it's the same rhetoric that the author of the quote just used. I mainly just said the above to show that many who have actually studied these doctrines and come to opposite conclusions it isn't because of bad motive or living off of feelings. It's because that is honestly what they see in the scriptures.

PS. The pre-tribbers are wrong. :-P

preachparsely, I believe the reason for the wording "desire to go through the tribulation", is because of the scripture being clear about a pre trib rapture.
The wedding supper,the white horses, the 10 virgins and direct word of scripture,one would think,needs to be reconciled.

Jesus said"I will not drink with you again until the day i drink it new with you in my fathers kingdom"
He was referring to the marriage supper.

Now lets assume Jesus comes back after the tribulation for his bride(the rapture)
It is clear that the saints never reach heaven under this theory.And so do not attend the wedding supper.
Thus a major hole in the posttrib doctrine.(one of many)

Only a twofold coming and a pretrib rapture reconcile the scripture i have brought forth.

David

Hello...

I really don't like the terms "pre-trib," "mid-trib" or "post-trib." Why? These are not entirely descriptive of the terrible time in which the world will live.

Tribulation, in my opinion, is here now. It has been around since the time of the early Church. The early believers were persecuted and tortured for their faith (and even sawed in two, as described in Hebrews 11:32-38). The "god of this age" has always been at work in the terrible attempt to destroy the true Church and Gospel of Christ. How will this be different in the last days?

Instead of using the word "[i]tribulation[/i]" (in regard to this final hour before the Second Coming), I prefer to use the word "[i]WRATH[/i]." The [i]wrath of God[/i] is what will distinguish this time from mere Satanic tribulation. God will pour our His wrath (which is being "stored up") through judgment upon the Earth in an unbiased fashion. At one point, an entire third of the Earth will be destroyed. This includes EVERY man, woman and child. This wrath makes no distinction between nation, race, tribe or even faith. All of these "blanket" judgments (bowls, trumpets, seals, etc...) of God's [i]wrath[/i] are far worse than the simple [i]tribulation[/i] that Satan has used to attack believers throughout eternity. It is literally the just persecution of this world at the will of God.

Currently, I lean toward a pre-[i]wrath[/i] "catching away" of the Church. Why? I do not believe that we (the Church) are appointed to suffer such wrath from God. It has never (as far as I can tell) been the nature of God to pour out his indiscriminate judgment upon His own innocent children. Tribulation, on the other hand, has been endured for centuries. Somewhere today, a believer will probably give his or her last full measure of devotion in sacrificing themselves to the Lord through the hand of evil persecution or tribulation. The wrath of God, however, is [u]not[/u] evil. I see the Church not as vessels of His wrath, but vessels of His mercy (Romans 9:22-24).

If the Church is appointed to suffer this period of God's wrath and we are killed at the judgment of God, so be it. I am willing to suffer at the hand of God. However, if we are appointed to be preserved from God's wrath (like Noah in the flood or the Hebrews in the Passover), then so be it. Either way, it is a win-win situation for believers. Like Keith Green said, "[i]Pray for pre-trib but be prepared for post-trib[/i]."

But I do shy away from the term "tribulation." In this world, we will have tribulation (and persecution). That is beyond question. However, the wrath of God is an entirely different matter altogether. I shy away from using such a general term to describe a specific time of terror. I also shy away from individuals who point the finger of "deception" at those who believe differently in terms of the End (or who are simply not convinced in one way or the other). There is a reasonable argument on both sides of this issue -- enough to merit caution when discussing it with others. I lean "[i]pre-wrath[/i]" (a sudden "catching" or "taking away" of the believers, the wrath of God (mingled with further persecution and tribulation from the "god of this age," followed by the Second Coming). However, I completely understand the feeling by some of a "[i]post-wrath[/i]" coming of the Lord. I don't feel the liberty to render a final proclamation or verdict in such matters.

The key: Be ready! The Lord is returning at a time when we think not (and not even the Son knows of that time)!

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

Tribulation, in my opinion, is here now. It has been around since the time of the early Church. The early believers were persecuted and tortured for their faith (and even sawed in two, as described in Hebrews 11:32-38). The "god of this age" has always been at work in the terrible attempt to destroy the true Church and Gospel of Christ. [b]How will this be different in the last days?[/b]

Chris, it's quite surprising to ask this [i]fundamental[/i] question about the tribulation and persecution of the church in the last days, since the Lord Jesus clearly told us:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be [u]great tribulation[/u], [b]such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [/b]
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

bro. thank you so much for your sacrifice to our country. I do definitely appreciate you.

Concerning the marriage supper.
It happens in heaven.
rev19; 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

note the setting is heaven and the bribe is now the WIFE .
also note they ride with Jesus on the white horses to do battle with antichrist.

Compare that to matt26;29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

and john 14; 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Note that in a post trib scenario none of this is possible.

Like I said before the confusion is in using the tribulation period as a backdrop or basis for interpreting the end times events.

I believe this is improper as the groom has his eye on the bride and not antichrist.

If you lay aside tribulation, and just look at the marriage of the bride and groom you will see post trib as an impossibility.

God bless you bro and protect you,

David

Hi HE_Reigns...

Thank you for your "warning" about my leanings. I hope that you wouldn't get "offended" if I questioned your spiritual judgment simply because of your belief in "post-trib."

I have considered the "facts" from the Word of God. Yet I cannot find a deciding factor that would make me believe that the Church is appointed to suffer God's WRATH. Yes, it will be a time of "tribulation" -- but it is tribulation coming FROM GOD'S WRATH. I am somewhat convinced that God does not want to pour his wrath upon His own people. But this is my own estimation about the Scriptures. I apologize that you are so offended by the distinction that I made as being "anti-Scriptural" (as opposed to presenting my belief as an inarguable fact).

Some of us are still not perfect, sister. Please forgive my earthly shell. Not all of us can be 100% completely perfect in [u]every[/u] single doctrinal issue.

Believe me, I am not 100% convinced of a pre-wrath "catching away" of the Church. But I am somewhat less convinced that God is going to kill His people together with unbelievers when He indiscriminately destroys a third of the Earth, etc... That being said, the possibility remains open in my mind that the Church [i]might[/i] be appointed to suffer the wrath of God. I only wish that you would be open to even the slightest possibility (or less prejudiced against those who believe) that the Church might be "taken" before God begins pouring out His wrath upon the Earth. We are not wanting to "believe a lie" as you suppose. Some of us are searching for the truth.

Contrary to your assumption, most pre-trib people that I know are "[u]watching[/u]" for the Lord's return. Why would you think that we are not? Are you so vastly superior in your "perfect knowledge" that you suppose that everyone who doesn't agree with you is less spiritual or less knowledgeable? Not even the Son of God knows when He is returning (Mark 13:32 -- which is ironic if there is indeed a 7 year period and our Lord understands mathematics)!!! How can you pretend to know? It is utterly ridiculous to claim that the Lord is not going to come for anyone who is not fulfilling your personal definition of "watch."

I am praying for pre-wrath. I am prepared to die for our Lord nonetheless -- regardless of whether this happens at the hands of the world, Satan or God. Either way, we win! To live is Christ and to die is...

:-)

psalm1 wrote:
preachparsely, I believe the reason for the wording "desire to go through the tribulation", is because of the scripture being clear about a pre trib rapture.
The wedding supper,the white horses, the 10 virgins and direct word of scripture,one would think,needs to be reconciled.

I don't see where any of those references clearly say "I am coming to gather my church before I come the 2nd time." By your comment about you believe those things need to be reconciled, you admit that the main reason you think there must be a pre trib rapture is due to your interpretation of several events. Most pre-trib teachers have a laid out plan and then since they suppose their chart is right, they demand for something like a pre-trib rapture. If there isn't a plain text that says "seven years before Christ's second coming he will come for the church" then there isn't a plain verse that teaches the pretrib rapture. Again, the reason anyone believes a pretrib rapture isn't due to a plain scripture, but because they interpret several events in a certain way which demands for a pretrib rapture. [EDIT: Whether their interpretation is right or wrong doesn't matter for the point I'm trying to make] Does that make sense?

Now lets assume Jesus comes back after the tribulation for his bride(the rapture)
It is clear that the saints never reach heaven under this theory.And so do not attend the wedding supper.
Thus a major hole in the posttrib doctrine.(one of many)

Only a twofold coming and a pretrib rapture reconcile the scripture i have brought forth.

How do you know that the marriage supper is literally a sit around the table type of thing? Do you interpret the white horses you mentioned to be literal horses coming? Or do you interpret it symbolic to represent something? I think it's interesting that those scriptures you referenced are all symbolic or parables, yet you demand that the marriage supper is literal. Why?

Also, the marriage supper even if took literal, isn't very long. It's at the end of the tribulation that is after the great whore is destroyed.

Rev 19:1 \tAnd after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 \tFor true and righteous [are] his judgments: for [b]he hath judged the great whore[/b], which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 \tAnd again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 \tAnd the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 \tAnd a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 \tAnd I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 \tLet us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Sister HE_Reigns...

I have no doubt that you mean well with your warnings. But can you reread your post to me? Can you see how it can appear condescending to those who lean toward a belief in a "rapture" or "taking away" of the Church before the hour of God's wrath? You make it appear that you are concerned for our eternal souls -- as if we could go to Hell for not believing in a post-wrath manner.

This was not meant to shoot barbs. I am not "offended" at all by your views -- even if I might disagree with them. However, you do appear to express yourself in a manner that leaves no room for human error. But we are confined to our Earthly shell until we can see His face. I used to believe in pre-trib. Then I went to post-trib. Then, after long serious study, I currently [i]lean[/i] toward pre-wrath (for several good reasons that are often almost scoffed by some post-tribbers).

I responded to this thread simply because I wanted to make a distinction between the word "tribulation" and the hour of "GREAT TRIBULATION" that is coming. The Church has always faced persecution and great tribulation. Someone today (February 5th, 2008) will probably give his/her life for the Gospel in a communist or Islamic nation. They might even see their family murdered for the faith. However, the "Great Tribulation" is different only in that Satan will know that his time is short, and more importantly, the period will be terrible because of God's wrath! God will indiscriminantly pour out destruction upon entire portions of the Earth -- annihilating entire populations at the time. I currently don't feel that God has appointed us believers to suffer that wrath.

Please don't take this wrong. This is not calling your belief a "lie" (like you have done to us). This is not attacking your integrity. This is not attacking your ability to "discern" the Word of God. This is simply a topic that has been debated for a long time. I don't feel that it is expedient to go about proclaiming something as 100% undeniable truth that isn't quite 100% undeniable.

:-(

If you read Revelation carefully - "the wrath" is mentioned three times as "the vials" which comes after "the Tribulation".

Can you show me where it shows the wrath being after the tribulation? Are you meaning the wrath doesn't come until His coming? I'm not saying this to challenge, but to hear it expounded.

We know Paul told us...the Church..that we would meet HIM in the clouds, therefore the Rapture of the church Jesus will not set foot on earth.

Isn't this the same thing Jesus said?

Mat 24:30\tAnd then shall appear the sign of the Son of man [b]in heaven[/b]: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [b]in the clouds of heaven[/b] with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31\tAnd he shall send his angels with [u]a great sound of a trumpet[/u], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

To me, this looks very similar to what Paul said.

1Th 4:16 \tFor the Lord himself shall descend from [b]heaven[/b] [u]with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:[/u] and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 \tThen we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Annie , I agree it is good to look at all scripture.
You are wrong about the return of Jesus for his bride . It is a surprise to the remnant and all others.
Note the parable of the 10 virgins.

Matt.25;6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Con cerning the "bride" and "place"

It is you that is trying to "fit" events.

I dont think you can draw that concusion without a major stretch.

The Holy city being referred to in ch.21 is an actual city with walls.

1) the bride is in heaven in ch 19 and she has become the wife.

2) Jesus told the disciples Matt26 29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

The point is Jesus went "up" into heaven to prepare a place.

We find the white horses the bride,the "place" and the marriage supper all "up" in heaven.and she is referred to as the wife all in the same breath.

Now fast foreward to ch21 9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I dont know what is proven here except to confirm everything i have brought forth.

You may be trying to place the marriage supper of the lamb in ch21?

Nobody reading that would come to that conclusion.

Also note rev21;9.............wife......descending out of heaven.

David

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth forever and ever.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image.

There are some of us who do believe that we are caught up at the seventh trump - in the "air" - AS the vials are being poured out and some because of verse 16:2 believe they'll be protected through the wrath - nevertheless - we all agree that we are resurrected AT His Coming.

Let me know if I didn't answer as you've asked.

Do you believe this wrath being poured out is before or after his coming/our gathering?

Annie, I cant reconcile matt24 with1th 4. You are trying to make two separate events into one.

They dont fit in any way.

you are saying gathering the elect IN HEAVEN, through angels, is exactly the same as gathering the dead from graves by Jesus?

1th 4;13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Please note you are also comparing an event of "comfort" 1th4;18, with an event "shall all the tribes of the earth mourn"

There are many many other points to this . One of which is Imminent return.
We are commanded to watch not for antichrist but for Jesus.
In a post trib position Jesus cant come until after antichrist has his bloodbath.

David

Hi HE_Reigns...

Once again the problem is with pulling a few scriptures from here and there.

We are resurrected "at His Coming" and those coming "with Him" are those Paul said, "the dead in Christ shall rise first - THEN we who are alive and 'survive' will be caught up together with them IN THE AIR".

Context and having every Scripture that pertains to "those days" must be before our eyes.

Is Zac Poonen arrogant for writing what he has on Revelation or Ryle or the many others?

Most importantly - why is there so very very much Scripture on "those days and His Day" in His Word?

Regardless, there is still room for discussion without dismissing the alternative ideas as “lies.” The notions that are clear are:
1.\tPersecution and tribulation have always existed for believers.
2.\tHowever, the days are growing worse.
3.\t The wrath of God is coming.
4.\tThe wrath of God will result in God pouring out judgment indiscriminately upon entire portions of the Earth resulting in the deaths of entire populations.
5.\t Jesus will come to Earth again.

The only question that I have is whether or not the Church will be appointed to suffer the Wrath of God. Will God gather the true Church before He pours out His wrath upon this world? There are many reasons that I feel point to this. Like you, Annie, I have studied the Scriptures diligently, in context and as a whole. I just don’t feel secure enough to make a claim in a manner that cannot be questioned or that calls all other beliefs a “lie.”

I don’t preach that the “rapture” will occur. I don’t preach that believers will be forced to endure the hour of God’s wrath. When I speak to others, I let them know of the different scenarios that are common amongst both sides. I still [i]hope[/i] to be taken from this world before the hour of God’s wrath, but I am prepared to die for Him – even if it happens at His own hands. I just want to see Jesus.

:-)

psalm1 wrote:
You are wrong about the return of Jesus for his bride . [b]It is a surprise[/b] to the remnant and all others.

David, this is not what the Bible reveals to us. We don't know the exact [b]'day and hour knoweth no man'[/b] of His coming, but the [b]times and seasons[/b] are not [i]surprise[/i] to the [i]remnant[/i], it will surprise to the world and the christians in name only. Read carefully the words of the apostle Paul:

1Th 5:1 But of [b]the times and the seasons, brethren[/b], ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know [b]perfectly[/b] that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; [b]then sudden destruction cometh upon them[/b], as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 [b]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.[/b]
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: [b]we are not of the night[/b], nor of darkness.

Do you think this is surprise? Surprise will be if you not ready and waiting and living in darkness.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not [b]what hour[/b] your Lord doth come.

Note here, it is written [b]hour[/b], but not the times and seasons.

...so there ARE several different days known as the "Day of the Lord."

:-)

Annie, my point is that the the foolish were caught unaware. This is a surprise. also at midnight the cry was made and the fact they slept and slumbered.
So yes it was a surprise just like if you were asleep and there was a knock on your door.

Also in your analogy of oil and light?

can you show me where this is consistent with other passages where oil is used?

If it is light being spoken of i believe it would have referred to light.
It refers to what some had and some didn't have.
Which is oil,or anointing, or intimacy.
The light came from the oil not visa versa.

This parable is simple the fools are fools due to the lack of oil,Gods presence,annointing,the believers first love. They are not instructed to buy light, but oil.

The diligent (wise) have kept up their relationship with the groom. Illustrated by their "oil" ...Oil is a type.

This parable clearly points to the rapture.
Note bridegroom, door shut, and ...went in with him to the marriage.

Clearly some virgins (christians) were left behind.

You say no scripture says up?
You havent read 5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: acts11;1 Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

I found these three right away but there are more pointing to heaven being "up"

David

Annie, yes this is what must be asked. And since it is impossible to fit all the events into a comming at the end of the trib. then there is no question that there is first a rapture and then a second comming at the end of the trib. period.

1th5; 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

rev 3;10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Luke 21;36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

David

Annie, Chris, David, Katy and all,

Not going to get into the fray. Because I have already posted on this subject a few months ago. Just to say that the two words that seem to be so significant if you study them through the whole of scripture is "last trumpet", and the word tribulation itself (looking at the Greek root and how it is variously translated). Mega tribulation... is a long way from the wrath of God..the devil and his crowd can do their worst and it will only turn out for our good.... but the wrath of God, Moses asked, who can withstand. We are not appointed to wrath, true, but the tribulation that Jesus warned about was not His wrath, but the devil's and the world's tribulation against the saints.

David mark this one down as another one that we do not agree on, but will still love one another till we see that I win :-).

You said in one of the threads that you had studied this for 30+ years. Well here's hoping you will have enough years to catch up with a few more of us, and by that time you may know some stuff :-P

I know this is a serious subject and I am by no means making light. I do believe however that those who will try... try to lose all their preconceived notions and simply read slowly the Lord's answer to this very question in the three Gospel's that so specifically answer the disciple's questions... disciples BTW who were certainly representative of those who would be ready for whatever, you will change your views like so many of us have who were reared with the notion that we would be swept away sans trib.

Clint

Someone here, in an earlier post, said that the Bible "clearly states..." (and then posted their view.) Since this debate has been on-going for more years that any of us have been alive, I think it's safe to say that it's not "clearly stated."

I agree with Tears_of_Joy. Even when I held the pre-trib theory without checking it out for myself. We won't know the exact day and hour but we will know when the time is at hand. Look through-out history and you'll see that God has a tendancy to let the saints know when things were going to happen. (I'm at work and don't have referenced readily available, I apologize.)

As for theories, or doctrines, there are very wise and respected Bible teachers and preachers that hold varying views on the subject. Knowing that, I don't think this issue will be resolved in this thread. 8-)

Having just come out of a background of having been deceived for so many years, here's my take on the matter: I enjoy this discussion and reading other people's views. But, my question is this: How many of you have actually taken the time to seek God diligently on this and feel that you've heard back from Him? There's a difference between doing that and just reading/studying the scriptures and deducing your own conclusions.

That's the approach I'm about to take on the subject. I'm going into this neutrally. I have no preferences as to how I would like it to be. I will simply seek God. He's the God who answers prayers, so, I'll be excited to see what He says.

How many of you have actually taken the time to seek God diligently on this and feel that you've heard back from Him? There's a difference between doing that and just reading/studying the scriptures and deducing your own conclusions.

That is a very good question Brother Kieth, and I can honestly say that I did seek God on the subject, especially in view of the fact that as I began to search the scriptures there were too many questions that were totally unresolved to me in the pre-trib rapture theory. The pastor whose funeral I just recently preached had been preaching from the time I was born and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was a man of God who lived a very holy life. I lived across the street from him for 14 years. So I was very reluctant to even approach him on a subject that questioned something that he had previously preached although he had not for some time preached on the subject. Finally I approached him and he did not at all seem surprised but said that God had been dealing with him on the subject also. We agreed to pray and search the scriptures and set a time about a month away to come back together and compare what we had found.
To make a long story short, we were both perfectly agreed after that month of research, and have both publicly apologized to the church for being in error and confessed that we had accepted the current teaching without the kind of research and prayer that should have been done on the subject.

That said, it is not a matter of 'what God showed me'. It is a matter of every man working out his own salvation in the fear of God. It is the matter of the Berean principle for each of us. And I appreciate and encourage your attitude to seek and search till you know all that you can know regarding the subject.

(And this is not an argument nor meant in any way as a proof for anyone... [i]sola scriptura[/i] Let the Word of God speak for itself)

Clint

Hi broclint...

Just to say that the two words that seem to be so significant if you study them through the whole of scripture is "last trumpet", and the word tribulation itself (looking at the Greek root and how it is variously translated). Mega tribulation... is a long way from the wrath of God..the devil and his crowd can do their worst and it will only turn out for our good.... but the wrath of God, Moses asked, who can withstand. We are not appointed to wrath, true, but the tribulation that Jesus warned about was not His wrath, but the devil's and the world's tribulation against the saints.

There is no record in Bible prophecy (that I have ever seen) that shows that God will save a few people while His wrath is poured indiscriminantly upon entire portions of the Earth. It is my inclination from the Scriptures that the Lord might protect us by taking us out of the world before God's wrath is so indiscriminantly poured.

No one is saying that believers must believe this way (in a pre-wrath "rapture"). All I am saying is that is at least plausible. There is no need to have people scoffing at such beliefs (either pre-trib or post-trib) in a condescending manner. How is it condescending? Just check out the posts that seem to express concern about our eternal condition for accepting the possibility of a "pre-wrath rapture." I take it all with a grain of sand, but some act as if they are speaking inarguable words of God in regard to this issue. Is that proper? Can anyone be so 100% certain that a "rapture" might not take place?

Like I said, I [i]lean[/i] toward a belief in a pre-wrath "catching away" in which believers who chose to follow Christ will be protected from the wrath to come. However, I am aware of the possibility that such a "rapture" might never take place. I am fully prepared to face persecution, tribulation and death -- even if it were handed out by the Wrath of God. Why is it that so many post-tribbers seem to feel that pre-tribbers are not prepared to face such tribulation for the Lord?

I agree with Simple: This debate will not be won on this thread. But it would be nice if people on both sides of this issue could express themselves without an "[i]I know the truth and you do not![/i] type of attitude. I'm not saying that this is the intent of anyone, but it does come across as rather condescending when someone feels so 100% confident that they can call our beliefs or leanings "[i]a lie[/i]."

:-(

HE_Reigns...

Does it really make a difference in this discussion, sister?

:-(

Brother Chris,

I agree with Keith also, that it will not be settled on this thread, and I refer to my last post that it must be a matter of prayerful consideration for each of us... there are a whole host of things that we are to "settle it in your hearts, therefore". Like another thread where Bro. Mike B. said for us to be ready for "whatever". I think that is wise counsel.

The only problem that I see is with those who are so adamantly expecting a catching away "before" being so disillusioned by the severity of something akin to the holocaust that it fulfills precisely what the Lord asked "nevertheless when the Son of Man comes will he find faith on the earth?"

The fact that righteous and wicked can both perish at the same time is established in
Ezekiel 21:1 - 3 (NKJV) 1And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2“Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem, preach against the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel; 3and say to the land of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am against you, and I will draw My sword out of its sheath and cut off both righteous and wicked from you.

And (here I go, I SAID I was not going to get into the fray :-( ) the prototypes in scripture in which there definitely was a time of tribulation for the saints while at the same time wrath upon the wicked is the tribulations against the Children of Israel prior to their exodus... pretty good picture actually. Plagues on the Egyptians while there was safety upon those who listened to and knew and had a relationship with Moses. Second prototype would be the days of Daniel especially in the challenge for all the world to worship the image whereas the three said basically to their tribulators (made up word) "go for it". It ended as the future will end with beast worship humiliated and those who were willing to lay down their lives victorious. But as they said, and as we must say, "either way, we will not bow".

Just some thoughts.... I am away from home and at the hospital so I am lame without access to much but what is on the surface of my tired brain... one reason I am not into this...:-D

This thing I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, and that is that our faith is going to be tested one way or another before we get out of here... so whatever we face, the Lord Jesus Christ, the One revealed in scripture, the Creator, CANNOT BE DEFEATED BY CREATURES... so let us all keep the faith, regardless of long or how short we are required to remain faithful.

Clint

Hi BroClint...

Like another thread where Bro. Mike B. said for us to be ready for "whatever". I think that is wise counsel.

The only problem that I see is with those who are so adamantly expecting a catching away "before" being so disillusioned by the severity of something akin to the holocaust that it fulfills precisely what the Lord asked "nevertheless when the Son of Man comes will he find faith on the earth?"

I understand the arguments made by post-trib adherents. They may, in fact, be correct. In fact, I used to be quite settled on post-trib. However, after having seriously studied the issue and much time in prayer, I don't feel "secure" that this is the case. I am not saying that "God told me" that there will be a "rapture." Quite the contrary. When I prayed, I didn't hear God tell me either way was correct! Now, before someone goes about and scoffs at this, let me be clear: I pray that I am still tender clay in the hands of God. I don't think that this issue is 100% settled either way -- no matter how much someone insists.

I also do not think that anyone has a cause to question any sort of possible deceptability because of a view in this matter. It seems (at least to me) that pre-trib believers are often scoffed at by the post-trib crowd. Often, it does seem to come across as a condescending (although sincere) warning about possible "deception." We sometimes feel "spoken down to" and are warned that we are not properly "watching" for the Lord's return. Can't we agree that we are all (hopefully) searching for the truth in this matter? Like Brother Keith implied, we will probably not reach a consensus by this single thread. And like you said, we should be sincerely praying about what we study in this regard everyday. But what is the danger in hoping for a pre-wrath escape while still being prepared to die or endure extreme tribulation for our Lord?

I [i]lean[/i] toward a belief in a "catching away" of the Church just prior to the hour of God's wrath upon the Earth. I presented the rationale for my current leanings in another thread once, but I was scoffed, mocked and ridiculed for it.

The point is that I feel that we should be very careful NOT to come across as condescending to those who disagree with us on such a divisive matter. Is this issue firmly established in the Word? Is this a sacred tenant of the faith? Some would argue yes. I would say no (just by the preponderance of disagreement -- even amongst the brethren at SermonIndex). We should not point to another person's belief or leaning in this matter and call it "a LIE" simply because it goes against what we sincerely think to be true. It's not like we are discussing something that is clear from the Word of God. We are discussing something that has been debated for years! Is such rhetoric appropriate in the Body of Christ?

:-(

Chris said: The point is that I feel that we should be very careful NOT to come across as condescending to those who disagree with us on such a divisive matter.

Brother, I have to agree that we should never be condescending to one another period. There are certainly issues that I could not and would not ever compromise and if it came to a discussion in which there was an adamant "you'll never convince me", I would have to just leave in the hands of God.

I heard a message last evening and I cannot remember the preacher's name, sad to say, but he made a comment that stuck with me regarding the fact that the devil showed all the kingdoms of this world to Jesus in a "moment of time". And yet for all ETERNITY we will be learning more and more about the INFINITE wisdom of God. (not a quote just my added observation) Were He to run out of things for us to see, explore, learn, then with a word, He could create another universe that outstrips this one as much as the sun outstrips the moon. To live for ETERNITY in the presence of God, what can compare?

My main concern is that we live lives that are crucified to this old flesh that honors such a wonderful King that would condescend to love such a worm as I. Whatever we face, may God help us to say as Job, "though He slay me, yet will I trust Him!"

Clint

I apologize if this was too touchy a thread to create. I really hoped it wasn't going to evolve into a debate of tribulation doctrines for exactly the reason I mentioned earlier - it has no chance of being resolved in this thread.

After I read Zac Poonen's article, I was encouraged by the hope and encouragement it gave regarding tribulations of the [i]every day[/i] sort. Who couldn't use some encouragement with those? I think everyone would agree that those are happening [i]right now![/i]

This discussion went much better than any other one I've seen on this the subject, though. Sometimes I think the spirit of competition sneaks into the Christian life. Why do I say that? Look at "the world" around us: sports have turned into idolatry and its own religion, political correctness says that everyone is right and we can sue anyone who hurts our feelings. Everything is focused on "me" and is based on feelings and emotions, which now run frighteningly hot among people. Don't agree? How about the man that shot three people dead over an argument about the Super Bowl. Who batted an eyelash at that news story? No one. It's commonplace.

But for us. We're different. We're new creations. We're family. We're on the same side. Discussions are great but heated debates, arguments and taking small "innocent" shots at each other is worldly behavior, not Christlike. We can't even use the excuse that "we're just human" because that goes against scripture. We're new creations and have the Holy Spirit and grace to guide us. These are choices we're making and these choices affect our eternity.

I have no problem placing the rapture before the tribulation. not because of anything or any teaching but because I have weighed the options and explored each possibility(that I know of) and in order to reconcile the scripture I have brought forth.
Where we differ is the second coming as one event.

If it is then I cant reconcile the scriptures I have brought forth.

I am not trying to make them fit anywhere.

I am trying to see what position to take in light of those verses.And they dont line up with a post trib event.

The only way i can see these scriptures reconciled is for the 2nd coming to be two fold.

It is this point that we differ.
And btw I came from a A millennial church setting but saw differently when I read my bible.

I dont know but i think yall refer to them as preterist now.
I am highly interested in this topic and I am not predisposed to either view because i did not come from those backgrounds i came from a A millennial church.

If you can show me Im wrong then so be it .I will eat humble pie and be better for it.
However the scriptures (from where I sit) are increasingly pointing to a pre trib rapture,

The reason I said I had been studying 30 years was in response to the first or second post of this thread. The brother stated he had been in dead works 23 or so years.
I think i wrongfully implied that I had racked up 30 years of straight study. NOT THE CASE!
I doubt I can even claim 10 years of straight study.(my bad)
I like you guys test the word and am shooting for truth.
I like it that my feet are held to the fire and I think that is a good thing!

David

Bro. keith, I dont feel that way.

From my viewpoint this is a forum and as such any biblical topic is fair game(of course under the eye of the moderator)

But lively debate is a excellent chance to be "proven"
To test what you understand against all the other saints......Is awesome!
Where else can this be done?
You have an awesome opportunity with sermon index
Also you can pm any member you feel things are heating up , and tell them your heart to avoid offences.

David

I like it that my feet are held to the fire and I think that is a good thing!

I appreciate your 'tude about it Brother. Haven't had enough coffee to stay awake at this hospital, much less to bring together all my "years and years" :-) of study to the table.

I just want us all to make it, and I mean that. I hope SI will be in operation for this cyber family to keep having "iron to sharpen iron". There is so much to know "down here", just imagine what ignoramuses we are regarding what Paul said,“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Nor have entered into the heart of man

The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

Clint

Hi Keith...

I apologize if this was too touchy a thread to create. I really hoped it wasn't going to evolve into a debate of tribulation doctrines for exactly the reason I mentioned earlier - it has no chance of being resolved in this thread.

I have always found it perplexing that the matter is of such grave importance to some. I have seen people literally "shake the dust off" in regard to fellowship because of disagreement about the timing and exact manner of our Lord's return. I have witnessed brethren part company of the most ridiculous of matters. Is this a petty matter? Yes and no. The timing or manner of the Lord's return does NOT affect our relationship with Him. Yeah, there might be some who could possibly be shocked if a "pre-wrath rapture" doesn't take place. We should caution those who believe in the "rapture" about the possibility of enduring the hour of God's wrath. There might be some post-trib people who are shocked if a "rapture" takes place before the hour of God's wrath. I suppose that they would just have a thankful, sheepish grin.

Regardless, in the end, the end will come! We should all be prepared for the best or worst! We should be watching for the Lord's return and aware of the events as they transpire. But we should never be given to (or spreaders of) fear or paranoia amongst the brethren. If our faith is grounded firmly in Christ Jesus, then why should we fear? While the position of Times Square Church and David Wilkerson is (at least, according to an email response from Neil Rhodes) quietly remains in the pre-trib camp, I like a quote that I found from him some time ago: "[i]Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib? I believe in 'Pan-Trib.' It will all 'pan out' in the end.[/i]"

One thing is certain: Regardless of the exact manner or timing of the Lord's return -- I can't wait to see His face!!! Oh what a glorious day that will be!!!

:-)

by psalm1 on 2008/2/5 17:50:40

Bro. keith, I dont feel that way.

From my viewpoint this is a forum and as such any biblical topic is fair game(of course under the eye of the moderator)

But lively debate is a excellent chance to be "proven"
To test what you understand against all the other saints......Is awesome!
Where else can this be done?
You have an awesome opportunity with sermon index
Also you can pm any member you feel things are heating up , and tell them your heart to avoid offences.

Brother David,

I think, since my testimony is one of coming out of a background of spiritual abuse, I may be more sensitive to it than some others. Not "sensitive" in a thin-skinned way. [i](Try to offend me and you'll fail. The only thing that offends me is taking the Lord's name in vain or using it carelessly in an exclamation or joke. And I'll call anyone to task on that, whether it's a stranger or my boss.)[/i] I'm sensitive because I can see the little jabs coming. I can tell when a "just kidding" is not kidding at all. I know all of the polite Christian lingo used to insult and hurt other people. (Even when it's said "in love.") Some do it unintentionally, but that still speaks volumes about that person's inner life and what's in their heart.

I [i]do[/i] believe debate has its place, even if I'm not one to participate in it often. But, they can easily become snares with very thin lines that cross over into offense, anger, bitterness, pride and rebellion. A [i]very[/i] thin line. Even under the eyes of a moderator. First, because a moderator can't be in every thread every day. I've moderated a forum before and know it's very difficult. Secondly, because we don't always know what stage of their Christian walk a person is in. We may kid around or take to task someone we think we know, but who people claim to be online is not necessarily who they are in real life. If a spirited debate gets a little out of line, we may end up heaping condemnation on them, not knowing that they have an unspoken struggle. I've seen this happen so many times.

I believe, online debates can be fun, useful and productive! I don't want to hinder anyone's enjoyment of a good, healthy go! But, I do believe we should have the wisdom to use the "PREVIEW" button and read our posts for a self-check on our attitudes and motives so we aren't a stumbling block unknowingly.

!!! PLEASE NOTE !!! I'm speaking in general, not specifically towards [i]any[/i] brother or sister here. I don't ever sign-off the forums thinking, "Boy, brother so-and-so has an attitude!" When I find myself having any such thoughts about anyone, I call that thought into submission and remember that that's someone God loves dearly.

P.S. I'm really not a stick-in-the-mud humbug. Really, I'm not! I've always been called an "old soul" if that helps clarify anything about me! People tell me I was born 84 years old! My friends actually call me "Charles Ingalls, Jr," saying, "Keith, you're life is so Rated-G!" :lol:

Thank you for sharing that, Lisa. I find it interesting because I'm beginning to find more and more people with a similar viewpoint.

I appreciate the suggestions, and I may check them out eventually, but this is something that I truly want to seek God on first. I'm making it a habit to seek God with my questions before seeking the council of men. We all have the same Bible and the God answers prayers. We're promised that if we seek Him first, and diligently, asking for wisdom, that He will give it. That excites me! It's also great training in learning to hear His voice! The more we seek Him, and hear from Him, the more evident His voice will be, especially when it's just a whisper during a storm!