End Time Revival / Harvest ?

Hello friends,

lately it seems this issue has been discussed quite a lot. Here is some food-thought which I just recognized now:

Revelation 7

[b]9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number[/b], of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, [b]These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/b]

Daniel

Daniel;

We the church will go through the Trib fullstop.

Any other teaching is a lie striaght from Hell.

What God will do is this, he'll find a man. The way he has always done it.

Through this man he will prepare a people who will be overcomers. These group of people will live on this earth while the anti christ is hear and they will overcome the powers of darkness.

I could write a long message to you but right know I have not got the time. I will give you one scripture and this is it.

Rev 15 v 1-2 I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having seven plagues, which are the last, for in them is finished the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.

Hi murrcolr...

We the church will go through the Trib fullstop.

Any other teaching is [b]a lie striaght from Hell[/b].

Brother, do we need to be so seemingly belligerent with our rhetoric in regard to our own ideas about the timeline and manner in which the Lord will return? How would post-trib believers feel if this manner was returned in regard to their beliefs? In other words, can we be a little more kind and patient when discussing our beliefs?

I don't mean to get involved in yet another End Times discussion which might result with a few individuals attempting to warn about the "[i]heresy[/i]" (or possible "[i]deception[/i]") that arises from contemplating the possibility that the Church might not be appointed to suffer the hour of God's indiscriminate wrath upon the Earth. Can't we ever discuss an issue or variation in such beliefs without using such damaging rhetoric or implications?

Let's consider the possibility of discussing such things without calling alternative views "[i]a lie[/i]."

:-)

Reply to Daniel and Annie
You bless my soul. Some related Scripture, notes and comments.

THE KINGDOM THAT IS FILLING THE WHOLE WORLD

Rapture=Consuption=Hearvest 144,000

The Assyrian = LUCIFER=Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon. Father of all false religions

(Isa.14:12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground,
[which didst weaken the nations]!

Who was the tree chopped down and his stump put in bands?

What was his sin? Pretending to be God and attempting to make everyone worship his image a man not made in the spiritual image of God.. Filling the world with all false religions
then, and the wound healed and is still the cookie cutter that is stamping out the deceived today

Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your [bands] be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

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False Religion=Satan
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn? Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever? Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?

I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the Besom of destruction, saith the Lord of hosts. The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand that I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

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For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.
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And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.
And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him. And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him. And it shall come to pass, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and that will not put their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation will I punish, saith the Lord, with the sword, and with the famine, and with the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand. Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon. For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.
But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those will I let remain still in their own land, saith the Lord; and they shall till it, and dwell therein.
Wilderness of,

2Kings.3-8 And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom

Isiah 63-1. Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Daniel 11-41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon the Edomites the spiritual foes of the spiritual city Zion

Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground? When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place? For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

Seek ye the King the King of Kings, Who’s kingdom is filling the whole world and will last for ever.

HE_Reigns Said;

Dear Brother Murray, I pray you didn't see my post as an attack on you. I just didn't know what you meant by "a man" and overcoming.

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It never came across my mind.

I will say this today there are a lot of simple theroy's going about. They might look innocent enough but beware.

Peter says in

II Peter 2 v 1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

People could be going about saying oh they are but simple theories. But these simple theories shall bring swift destruction on those who speak them and those who believe them.

How can people get so upset when you call a lie a lie. I was attacking no man just the lie.

We will face the Anti Christ in the Tribulation!!!!!!!!!!!

Anything else is a lie which has come out from Hell itself.

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The way God did it in the Past the way he will do it in this generation.

God will find a Chosen vessel he will make a covenant with that Chosen vessel. Through him. God will prepare a People. God will have a People of Victory .

Stephen Kaung (John The Baptist)
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1908

That teaching will help you understand as well.

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Abraham meaning is Father of a multitude or many nations

God finds a man who will be the Father of a multitude or many nations

Gen 17 v 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Israel meaning is God perseveres

(Jacob)Israel a nation is born

Gen 32 v 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Moses meaning is drawn out of the water

Dispensation of Law is ushered in the whole

Nation of Israel is drawn out of the water.

Exodus 2 v 10 And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh' daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.

John meaning is the Lord is gracious

The dispensation of grace is ushered in, and the People are prepared for the Messiah.

Matthew 3 1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Peter meaning is rock

The church foundation is laid and built upon Peter's leadership

Matt 16 v 18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. "

Paul meaning is small

Paul goes to the Nations (Gentiles) kings, and the children of Israel to preach the Gospel.

Acts 9 v 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel:

I Corinthians 15 v 9 For I am the least (Small) of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

What does God know want to do today. We no Jesus is coming back, in this significant timing will he not again do what he did in the past and find a man.

God again wants to prepare a people to stand against the 8th King and be without spot or wrinkle who are ready for that great wedding day.

1.\tThe 8th King is coming.
2.\tThe Messiah is coming back for a people a church his bride.

Revelation of John 3 v 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Rev 15 v 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.

Rev 17 v 9 Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth: 10 and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns that thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet; but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour. 13 These have one mind, and they give their power and authority unto the beast. 14 These shall war against the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings; and they also shall overcome that are with him, called and chosen and faithful.

They are the ones that have come off victorious from the beast, his image and from the number of his name. They never worshiped the beast, his image and never took his number. These people where alive when the beast is on earth and never bowed to the beast image.

Dan 3 v 4-5 Then the herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up; and whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3 v13-15 Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego. Then they brought these men before the king. Nebuchadnezzar answered and said unto them, Is it of purpose, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, that ye serve not my god, nor worship the golden image which I have set up? Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made, well : but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that god that shall deliver you out of my hands?

What did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego answer.

Dan 3 16-18 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer thee in this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; and he will deliver us out of thy hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

They answered the God we serve will deliver us out of the fiery furnace and the hand King. Who did these men think they where that could be so belligerent to a King?

Does not God want to show his Greatness through his people on this earth? Of course he does.

We sing the songs like this Our God is a awesome God, He reigns from heaven above with wisdom, power and love, Our God is an awesome God.

Do we believe it........................?

Ps 145 3-7 Great is Jehovah, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable. One generation shall laud thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts. Of the glorious majesty of thine honour, And of thy wondrous works, will I meditate. And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts; and I will declare thy greatness. They shall utter the memory of thy great goodness, And shall sing of thy righteousness.

Will not this Generation shout about God Greatness to the others?

Our God is so great, so strong and so mighty! Our God is an awesome God. Will not this generation Glorify God and tell of his works.

Will God leave us in this defeated state. That we his people are in now and let his name be rubbish because of us................

Those three men that were so belligerent to a King did not have what we have today. Yet they could stand while in captivity, while everyone else was worshipping the image say we will not worship the image you have set up.

Don’t be taken in by anyone who says that we will not face the 8th King (Anti Christ).

We shall overcome that are with him, we will be called and chosen and faithful. We will say to the 8th King. O king we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Know that is what I call a belligerent attitude and God loves it.

Hi murrcol…

I will say this today there are a lot of simple theroy's going about. They might look innocent enough but beware.

Peter says in

II Peter 2 v 1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

People could be going about saying oh they are but simple theories. But these simply theories shall bring swift destruction on those who speak them and those who believe them.

How can people get so upset [b]when you call a lie a lie[/b]. I was attacking no man just [b]the lie[b/].

We will face the Anti Christ in the Tribulation!!!!!!!!!!!

[b]Anything else is a lie which has come out from Hell itself.[/b]

How would you like it if someone started threads that audaciously claimed that “those who do not believe in pre-trib are “[b]believing a lie[/b]?!?” How would that make you feel? While I am certainly NOT willing to make such a claim (primarily because I don’t know with 100% certainty the timing and exact manner of the Lord’s return), I would expect that you wouldn’t appreciate such a comment.

Over the years at SermonIndex, I have noticed that most of the divisive arguments were caused when one person (or party) stated their beliefs at [u]undeniable[/u] [u]truth[/u] while considering all other possibilities as bearing reason for discussion. Is this the best manner of our behavior? In the past, people have argued about bible translations, propriety in clothing, music, doctrinal differences, etc… Feelings are hurt when one party “rises above” the others and proclaims a “truth monopoly” concerning things that just aren’t completely clear from the Scriptures (or else there wouldn’t be a debate amongst true believers).

They answered the God we serve will deliver us out of the fiery furnace and the hand King. Who did these men think they where that could be so belligerent to a King?
…
Those three men that were so belligerent to a King did not have what we have today. Yet they could stand while in captivity, while everyone else was worshipping the image say we will not worship the image you have set up.

Don’t be taken in by anyone who says that we will not face the 8th King (Anti Christ).

We shall overcome that are with him, we will be called and chosen and faithful. We will say to the 8th King. O king we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Know that is what I call a belligerent attitude and God loves it.

:-)

ccchhhrrriiisss said;

Is it possible to discuss such things without using such divisive rhetoric? Can we discuss this issue without showing disrespect toward the beliefs of those with whom we disagree? Let's consider the possibility of discussing such things without calling alternative views "a lie."

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It seems to me that you are the one that is trying to discipline me. It seems to me you are coming after me with a stick for speaking what I believe to be the truth. It seems to me that you are the one who is doing the stoning for speaking what I believe to be the truth. You are the one who is spending time trying to fix me out.

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How far to you want me to go in showing respect.

Christian ecumenism is that people focus primarily on Christ, not on separate church organizations and Doctrine.

Another lie whichs has come out of hell.........

Unity at any cost, don't upset anyone do evrything with a "spirit of love" respect everyones opion

and go to hell....................

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Jesus says this my friend;

Matthew 10 v 35-36 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: and a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

Wake Up you sleepy Christian

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Chris said;

How would you like it if someone started threads that audaciously claimed that “those who do not believe in pre-trib are “believing a lie?!?” How would that make you feel?

I don't live by feelings.

I would be grieved because it would be another person who believes the lies of the devil. Who will wake up and find themselves totally unprepared for what they have found themselves in.

And you think I have no love. If you knew something was going to hurt someone would you tell them. Or would you leave them alone until they got hurt and say I say it but didn't want to hurt your feelings............

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Would you throw me in a pit. Chop me up. Chop off my head. Punch me until I am quiet. Until I tow the line.

Certainly looks that way just know........

I go to Nigeria tomorrow morning so this will be my last post.

Do you have a pastor, elders or deacons at your church. Has there never been a spiritual Father or Mother that has looked after you and guided you.

Has there never been any leadership in your life.

You are right to be wary it is a time to be on guard and as there is so much false about.

Test all things......

Hi murcolr…

It [i]seems[/i] to me that you are the one that is trying to discipline me. It [i]seems[/i] to me you are coming after me with a stick for speaking what [b]I believe[/b] to be the truth. It [i]seems[/i] to me that you are the one who is doing the stoning for speaking what [b]I believe[/b] to be the truth. You are the one who is spending time trying to fix me out.

Brother, there is no “discipline,” “coming after with a stick” or “stoning” going on here. I’m just suggesting that you use this word that you interjected here when you call something a “lie” – the word “[b]believe[/b].” It was noticeably absent when you called the beliefs of others “[i]a lie[/i].” This little disclaimer can be quite important in such discussions. It proves that we are well aware that none of us are 100% perfect yet. Please understand that there was no "attack" on you or your beliefs.

How far to you want me to go in showing respect.

Christian ecumenism is that people focus primarily on Christ, not on separate church organizations and Doctrine.

Another lie whichs has come out of hell.........

Unity at any cost, don't upset anyone do evrything with a "spirit of love" respect everyones opion

and go to hell....................

I don't live by feelings.

I would be grieved because it would be another person who believes the lies of the devil. Who will wake up and find themselves totally unprepared for what they have found themselves in.

So, those of us who do not accept your own beliefs about the exact timing and nature of the Lord’s return (that does not appear completely clear from the Scripture) are [i]believing a lie[/i]? Those are mighty strong words, brother! What if you are wrong? What if both pre-wrath and post-wrath are not 100% correct? Is there any room for possibility that you are not 100% correct in your beliefs?

And you think I have no love. If you knew something was going to hurt someone would you tell them. Or would you leave them alone until they got hurt and say I say it but didn't want to hurt your feelings............

Would you throw me in a pit. Chop me up. Chop off my head. Punch me until I am quiet. Until I tow the line.

Certainly looks that way just know........

Like I have said, I am not 100% certain that the Lord has appointed the Church to suffer his wrath during the hour of Great Tribulation that will come upon the Earth. I [i]lean[/i] toward a belief that the Lord will take us before that time. I am well prepared (as we should be) to face any other scenario – including death at the hand of God. But even though I currently lean toward a “pre-wrath” scenario, I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable or audacious enough to call your beliefs a “lie.”

Do you have a pastor, elders or deacons at your church. Has there never been a spiritual Father or Mother that has looked after you and guided you.

Has there never been any leadership in your life.

Test all things......

I don't mean to sound upset at your mannerisms. If they came across as judgmental or a rhetorical "stoning," them please understand that this was not the intention at all. I just mean to express caution in the delivery of our opinions and beliefs about doctrines that are not yet completely clear to everyone. There are quite a few people here on SermonIndex who either believe (or lean toward a belief) in a "catching away" that will take place before the hour of God's wrath upon the Earth. Most of us are quite intent on seeking the truth in this matter. We are not all looking for "the easy way out" (as some people have called a belief in the "rapture"). Many of us simply want to learn the truth. We wouldn't dream of insulting your beliefs or opinions about the times or manner in which the Lord will return.

Be safe, brother, in your trip to Nigeria. You will be in my prayers.

:-)

I have noticed a common concern of those that adhere to the post trib doctrine.
It seems they are so worried about someone not being ready for what wont happen suddenly.
The bible doesnt say"for the antichrist will come in an hour you least expect it"
It also doesnt say "the antichrist will come as a thief in the night"

And yet have you ever heard a post trib debate where the phrase " I am so afraid the the Pretrib escapists will be caught unprepared" is Left out?

There will be a rapture according to the word and some people will be caught unprepared and the bible teaches these unprepared saints aren't permitted to the marriage of the bride and groom.
See the parable of the 10 virgins.

So in order to win me over to their post trib theory they are going to use terms like liar and deceived and tell me my beliefs are from hell?

Oh yes sign me up!

NOT!

David

I have noticed a common concern of those that adhere to the post trib doctrine.
It seems they are so worried about someone not being ready for what wont happen suddenly.
The bible doesnt say"for the antichrist will come in an hour you least expect it"
It also doesnt say "the antichrist will come as a thief in the night"

And yet have you ever heard a post trib debate where the phrase " I am so afraid the the Pretrib escapists will be caught unprepared" is Left out?

There will be a rapture according to the word and some people will be caught unprepared and the bible teaches these unprepared saints aren't permitted to the marriage of the bride and groom.
See the parable of the 10 virgins.

So in order to win me over to their post trib theory they are going to use terms like liar and deceived and tell me my beliefs are from hell?have noticed a common concern of those that adhere to the post trib doctrine.

My question for any pretrib person is, where is this so called "secret rapture" found in scripture? I cannot find it.

jgraves, Secret rapture is only used by posttrib debaters.
i have never seen this in scripture.
if you archive this ,my guess is you will see it used exclusively by those of the post trib persuasion.

you now see what i am talking about?

i asked one brother on this forum if he frequented a certain post trib website and that it appeared to me to be an anti pretrib website and he answered yes thats exactly what it is.

To me thats like being anti Hebrew because they should read left to right like me????

there is no secret rapture. Just 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins.

David

Annie, Hi. Are you making a point that the rapture is not a secret?

If you are I agree with you!

David

Annie, I believe Jesus comes for his remnant( the rapture)

It is 7 years later when he comes with his saints to defeat the antichrist.

The scripturees you brought forth agree with this interpretation,

Annie Ye almost maketh me a posttrib!!!

But if you keep reading there are several verses of interest!
matt24; 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Also notice vs 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice here they are gathered from heaven.

You do believe the rapture happens after antichrist is in power 7 years?

David

Praise Jesus!!

ccchhhriss wrote:

Let's consider the possibility of discussing such things without calling alternative views "a lie."

There is only one truth and any other point of view is by definition not true. that is a lie.

i have my own understanding of the discussion going on. i believe it is proven in scripture.
however it is possible that i am wrong (decieved) and therefore believing a lie.

It is not however, possible for both post and pre-trib to be true hence one view or the other is in fact a lie.

i agree that we need to lovingly and respectfully discuss these things. There is no need for me to tell someone that he believes a lie, nor for him to tell me that. However there is no doubt that some of us believe a lie.

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

Annie, Yes it is good to leave it to the Holy Spirit. Amen.

My focus is not on who is right or wrong.

My point of interest is the marriage supper.
I believe the Holy Spirit (possibly) is Emphasizing this more than a tribulation or rapture viewpoint.

Now the marriage supper (in my opinion) is an unprecedented Event.

Under the formatting of placing the rapture at the end of the tribulation....we have the white horses coming down to earth with Jesus and a small number of saints which meet the dead in Christ that are risen from the dead along with the those "raptured".(alive and remain)

These ascending ones do what?
They mount riderless horses and NEVER reach heaven????

We also must ignore the scriptures placing the bride, groom,white horses, marriage supper, and "wife" all in the same breath,in heaven.

Also we hit another impasse with the fact that the dead in Christ are in graves but in revelation we see "these are they which came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes"

Now these dead have joined the other dead raised preceding the rapture.

When you add it up the rapture at the end of the tribulation period is truly an impossibility.

The rapture at the beginning of the tribulation and then the second coming at the end of the tribulation with all the saints(the five wise virgins,along with those that were risen from the dead preceding the rapture along with the martyrs that die during the tribulation period.
this great number have already completed the marriage supper of the lamb and are in heaven ready to mount white horses to do battle with the Antichrist.

Also another impasse to a post trib rapture is the great slaughter of Christians.
The bible places them in heaven AS THEY DIE.

Now under a post trib scenario they would be still in graves.(remember the dead in christ)

This is what I mean by reconciling scripture.

David

Rich, I think chris is pointing to the best interest of any debate.

We should all want the very best for our brethren.

For example if you respect your parents you wouldnt want to call them liars if they were wrong about ssomething?

Being wrong unintetionally is not being a liar.

Also wrong doctrine is not necessarily from hell.

We all have minds and think creative and right and wrong thoughts.

To ascribe everything that is not originating from the bible to hell is totally inacurrate.

This would mean we are all liars and from hell.

David

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please note: "and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

And also: "and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds"

There is an event that is CLEARLY going to proceed the "rapture". This event is called the "resurrection" of the just ( Luke 14:14).

My question is, as this resurrection proceeds the "rapture" when biblically does the resurrection happen?

Hint; John 6:39-40 Jn.6-44 Jn. 6:54 Rev. 20:4-5

Blessings Greg

since nobody took a stab at it I would say the resurrection happens almost simultaneously with the rapture.

The two groups meet in the air

David

Hi dorcas…

In the light of your many other posts, and their careful choice of words, I'm not sure why you would use the word 'indiscriminate' about the way God's wrath will be delivered on the earth. I could ask you to find scripture for me, and I'm sure there will be some verses containing the word all, however, I put to you here, that God is well able to save one and destroy another.

More than anything, I prefer to remain cautious before I go about and proclaim my beliefs as the final word of the matter. While I am not accusing anyone in particular of being guilty of such behavior, there is a tendency (at least from my perspective) of post-tribbers dismissing every other viewpoint or perspective as a vicious [i]lie from the pits of Hell[/i]. Do you see how silly it is to make such a final, ultimate stand on the matter? If the teaching of Biblical prophecy was so universally [u]clear[/u], then why are there so many different variations of teaching amongst sincere believers? Even amongst post-trib believers, there is no universal consensus concerning the exact timing of Biblical prophecy. Some in the post-trib crowd believe that believers will be “supernaturally protected” from all portions of God’s wrath. Others argue that believers will be forced to endure the wrath that is poured out upon entire portions (such as a third) of the Earth.

I lean toward a "pre-wrath" rapture. Make no mistake – I am not completely certain of a "pre-wrath” position. When I first came to the Lord, I thought that I was pre-trib, simply because all of the Assembly of God ministers would “show” me from the Scriptures. After a while, however, I defected toward more of a “post-trib” view. However, after many hours of study and prayer, I began leaning toward a “pre-wrath” perspective in regard to the coming Wrath of God (I just thought that I would mention this sense so many post-tribbers are quick to almost boast about the “years of prayerful research” that they have put into this issue; Just wanted them to know that some of us poor “pre-wrath” believers have too).

If I did buy into the [i]post-trib[/i] argument, it would certainly be that believers would endure the hour of Great Tribulation while God miraculously spares any of us from the effects of His wrath. Why? Simply put, I believe that this is promised in Scripture. We are NOT appointed to suffer His wrath (I Thessalonians 5:9). We are promised to be “kept from the hour of trial” that will come over the entire Earth (Revelation 3:10). Currently, however, I feel that this protection will come by a “taking” of Christ’s bride by our Bridegroom (similar to the manner of Jewish marriage custom – a bride is suddenly taken to the place prepared for her by her groom).

I would never force a pre-trib or pre-wrath position upon anyone. I wouldn’t ram such a belief down the throat of another believer by calling every other viewpoint a [i]lie[/i] simply because I may be convinced of a different manner. I would also never question the spiritual condition of those who do or do not believe in a similar manner. This is by no means a defense of such a position. Rather, I am a testament to a believer -- motivated by truth -- who cannot see the timing of the “rapture” as being clearly and completely identified by the Scriptures.

I am bothered by the post-trib believers who feel that a belief in a pre-trib rapture indicates any of the following:

1. [b]"Easy" believism:[/b] It is easy to point a finger at believers who share different views than some of us. There are even some, like Brother Kato, who use "prophetic" rhetoric to almost indict the spiritual nature of a believer based upon their views about the timing and manner of the Lord's return. Some even use the word "deceived" when speaking of believers in "pre-trib." Just because a believer leans or is convinced of a "pre-trib" rapture is by no means an indication that the believer has a flawed relationship with Christ. To assume this is error. Rather, it can simply be indicative that such believers arrived at a different conclusion.

2. [b]Prosperity:[/b] While I lean toward a "pre-trib" rapture, I despise the methods, beliefs and manners of the modern "prosperity" message. A belief in a "pre-trib" rapture does not indicate that such believers feel that the Church will not experience heavy persecution or tribulation. Rather, these believers feel that the Church will be removed from the "hour" of tribulation of God's wrath -- just as Noah was protected from the flood, the Israelites were protected from the plagues, and Lot was protected from fire. During the tribulation, the seals will be opened and the trumpet judgments will be sounded. Multitudes will be destroyed by the BLANKET JUDGMENT OF GOD upon this world. In an instance, a third of the Earth and a third of the sea will be destroyed BY GOD. There can be no protection of believers from this. The "pre-trib" rapture is the removal of believers from such judgment of God. Until then, believers will endure the tribulations and persecutions of men and the devil (even as Job endured).

3. [b]"Pre-trib" believers are less than sincere:[/b] While this is usually not articulated as such, it is often implied within conversations and discussions. I have never met a pre-trib believer who holds such a belief in order to "feel good" about not having to go through tribulation. That is just plain silly. Most of the pre-trib believers that I know hold to their beliefs only after serious study. Yes, there are some who simply "believe because they are told." But the same thing can probably be said about many post-tribbers. Besides, most pre-trib believers are certainly aware of the tribulation that we must endure in this world. They simply distinguish between the wrath of men and Satan versus the wrath of God.

What makes me "lean" toward a pre-wrath “taking away” of the Church?

There are several things. Here is the basic chronological breakdown of events as embraced by most pre-trib believers:

1.\t [b]Things get bad on Earth[/b] - Tribulation by mankind and Satan. Anti-Christ is possibly be revealed during this time (or immediately after the rapture).
2.\t[b]Rapture[/b] - Sudden, instantaneous “twinkling of an eye” catching away where “one is taken and another is left.”
3.\t[b]Hour of Great Tribulation – made great by God’s wrath[/b] – Three and a half or seven year “hour” in which all mankind must endure the multiplied wraths of man, Satan, and worst of all, God. During this time, entire portions of the Earth (and heavens) will be destroyed. Many people around the world will be killed when God destroys a third here and a third there. However, many, many people will also be saved during this time. Some will actually survive until the end.
4.\t[b]Second Coming[/b] – Christ returns in the clouds with the saints (those who had died and those believers who were taken the first time around) at Megiddo while “every eye shall see” Him. Satan is captured and bound. Christ sets up His Kingdom on Earth, setting us over as “rulers” over the world.
5.\t[b]Millennial Reign of Christ[/b] – We “rule” with Christ over the inhabitants of the world that are still alive. Death has been bound, so that a person will live in similar manner to Genesis.
6.\t[b]Last “Battle”[/b] – Satan is released for a short time to in order to try and deceive those living on Earth (including those who remained alive at the end of the Hour of Great Tribulation, and their physical descendants).
7.\t[b]Final Judgment[/b] – Satan captured. God judges all mankind. Death and Hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
8.\t[b]Destruction/Recreation[/b] – The universe is destroyed (or at least the destruction of the Heavens and the Earth). God creates a New Heavens and a New Earth. We live with God for Eternity.

The timing of the Lord’s return is also a secret. Not even Christ is aware of His return, as this knowledge is only known by the Father (Mark 18:32). If Christ (who IS the Word of God) does not know the timing of His return (which seems to be fairly understood by believers as being either three and a half or seven years following the commencement of the Hour of Great Tribulation), then why should believers feel that they can justify such a “certainty?” In the [i]pre-wrath[/i] perspective, Christ does not know the timing of the “rapture” (or sudden, instantaneous “taking away” – where one will be “taken” and the other “left”). However, Christ will be quite aware of the timing of His return (Second Coming) to the Earth. Likewise, believers are unaware of the exact timing of the Lord’s return (Matthew 24:42-44), even though we can realize the rapidity of it by the fulfillment of events around us (Hebrews 10:25).

An interesting verse for discussion is found in II Thessalonians 2:

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Anyway, it seems [u]clear[/u] to me that the issue is not [i]entirely[/i] [u]clear[/u]. Whenever I speak to friends (both pre-wrath and post-wrath), I make them aware of all possible scenarios about the Lord’s return. But when it comes down to it, it really doesn’t matter to me. If the Lord chooses to “rescue” believers from the hour of His Wrath upon the Earth – so be it! If we are appointed to endure God’s wrath – so be it! Either way, we are privileged to know and fellowship with Christ! I am, however, bothered by those who want to point the finger of heresy at those with whom they disagree.

The bottom line is that we should all keep our eyes upon the Lord. We should be watching for His return! If we do, and we truly know Him, we will remain in Him. Regardless of whether we are appointed to suffer the wrath of man, the wrath of Satan and/or the wrath of God), we will still have inexpressible peace in Christ Jesus our Lord!

:-)

By the way, I will probably post an interesting article that I found that gives a pretty good indication about the idea of a [i]pre-wrath[/i] "rapture." It lists the common arguments against such a notion, and then provides intelligent rebuttals. I provided it before, but someone here on SermonIndex scoffed and mocked me for presenting someone else's words (although they didn't even mention the words actually found in the article). I'll try to get it together soon.

Reply

It all happened more than two thousand years ago and the dead in Christ until his coming and resurrection did meet Him in the air, even king David. Why do you think the prophets were sent to the two tribes of the House of David in Judah? The whole book of Isaiah is about the culmination of that age and the coming of a new heaven and a new Earth.

Why do you think we on this side of The Death Burial and Resurrection of Christ needed a New Covenant?

Jesus is the King of His on Royal House, The House of God, not a building,. A kingdom that is filling the whole world and will last for ever.
Seek ye first the Kingdom Of God.

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the HOUSE OF ISRAEL know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Jesus Christ The Lord Of Lord And The King of Kings.

Eddie

rowdy2

Would you please show scripture to back up your babble.

Blessings Greg :-o

Edit. The scripture from John 6 that I presented , from the mouth of Jesus, state that the resurrection is "at the last day". He did not say tomorrow, or 2000 years from the last day as you suggest. ???

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Context of use.

Jesus unto his disciples that were standing alive on the earth at the time he spoke the words above that some of them would not see death until His returned and the establishment of His Kingdom.

New Testament subjects of The King of Kings are allowed to fight with the sword of truth as a weapon for His strength is made perfect in my weakness.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God, which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles, that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not, behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and hast made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth.
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, honour, and glory, and blessing.
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little, for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest and this is the refreshing yet they would not hear.

But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little, that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us, for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves.

Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place and your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take youF for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

Give ye ear, and hear my voice hearken, and hear my speech.

Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground? When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place? For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him. For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin, but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod. Bread corn is bruised because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen. This also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

An interesting verse for discussion is found in II Thessalonians 2:

[b]only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,[/b]

Just who is this who will be [i]taken out[/i] of the world in order for the “Wicked” (most likely, the Anti-Christ) to be revealed?

Hey Chris,

Don't mean to be too much a stickler, but the Word says "taken out of the way" not "taken out of the world".

Small but significant when talking about rapture stuff.
:-) :-) :-)

Hello,

wow, this thread got really big. Well, first of all, thank you for all of your replies. To be honest, I did not want this to be turned into another rapture-debate. Seems that this issue is unavoidable :-)

The best thing for all of us to do is to simply draw as near as possible to God in our daily lives and be faithful to the core with whatever is at hand. I believe he is calling a people in these days whom He is going to raise up and who will glorify Him.

Personally, I think there will be a harvest in midst of great tribulation in this world and that we should be prepare ourselves and also pray for God to send workers out into the field.

Amen.

Daniel

Hi dorcas…

Thank you for your reply. I feel your confusion is partly because you choose to add 'indiscriminant' to the word. You did say 'indiscriminate' in your earlier post.

There is nothing in the words of Jesus to remove us from tribulation, and Rev 3:10 is the only verse I could see which implies a trial may be avoided. Other verses state clearly that we will be tried. But, we are to be of good cheer during tribulation, because He has overcome the world in which we will experience it.

I have always found it interesting in that most Bible scholars (including “pre,” “mid” and “post” trib people) accept that the time span of the “hour” of Great Tribulation that will come upon the entire Earth. Most scholars pick a period of 7 years (while a few agree upon 3 ½ years) – as indicated by the book of Daniel. We are promised to be “taken” (and not “left”). But ironically, the time of the Lord’s return (in which some will be taken and some will be left) is not even known by the Son of God (Mark 13:32)! I’ve always imagined that Christ Jesus would have a pretty good idea about his Second Coming if it is indeed calculated by Scripture. So if the “hour” of God’s wrath were to begin, then the Son of God would realize that His coming would be realized in about 7 (or possibly, 3 ½) years. Yet Jesus does not know the time of His return.

This is quite reminiscent of a Jewish wedding. The groom departs (following the betrothal), and goes to “prepare a place” for the bride. This home taking (or the “nissu’in” or “liḳḳuḥin”) can take place after at least one year, or after a home is finally prepared. Once the bride is “taken” to this place, a procession will begin in which people will be taken to the great “wedding feast.” The [i]Parable of the Ten Virgins[/i] from Matthew chapter 25, spoken in the same context with Matthew 24, illustrates this “type” as Christ is our groom and we are His bride. Some of the virgins were “unwise” because they slept without oil. When the groom suddenly came, they were unprepared, and ultimately, left behind.

How will the days be before the coming of the Lord? Well, in one context, we read that they will be similar to the days of Noah. In those days, people ate and drank all the way up until the flood suddenly came and the door was shut (and Noah and his family were protected above the flood). The “hour of trial” that will come upon the Earth doesn’t seem to fit such a description. During those days, people will seek death because of the terrible wrath of God (even wanting mountains to fall upon them in order to hide them from the presence of God)! Those who believe in a “taking away” before the wrath of God see the story of Noah as a type of the coming wrath. Everything went on like normal (marriage, divorce, eating and drinking, life is good, etc…) UNTIL the sudden day came in which Noah and his family was taken into the Ark and when God’s wrath began to be poured out and sudden destruction came.

Dorcas, I am well aware of the arguments for a post-trib coming of the Lord. While I [i]lean[/i] toward a belief that God will remove His bride before His wrath is dispensed upon the entire Earth, I am certainly aware of the various possible scenarios. I would NEVER point my finger at any of these beliefs and impudently call them “[i]a lie from Hell[/i]” (as some have done). Some seem so ferocious with their attitude – as if they thought that most pre-trib believers were so weak minded that they are actually going to bow to the Antichrist!

This entire discussion ultimately revolves around this question: Will believers be taken from the Earth during the hour in which God pours out His fierce wrath upon the Earth? There is plenty of room for discussion in this matter without necessitating resorting to ridiculously immature [i]cheap shots[/i] at the beliefs of others. I find it amazing that most post-trib believers confess to one time holding to a pre-trib viewpoint (some had these beliefs for YEARS). It makes me wonder why there is such a lack of patience on their part? Did someone point to their beliefs (back when they were pre-trib) and scoff at it while calling it a [i]lie from Hell[/i]? Or did someone take the time to present them a perspective with sincere gentleness and patience?

:-)

Luke 9 ;27But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God

Matt 16; 28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Acts1;6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

They did not taste death until they witnessed him taken up into heaven.

But they did taste death without seeing Jesus return on his white horse with his saints.

So these scriptures are points of interest but they are NOT inferring that they saw Jesus return and set up the new Jerusalem.

A real dilemma comes when you try to make nero antichrist of revelation.

David

HE_Reigns...

I'm tired of your cheap shots at Post-Trib people. It's CONSTANT. I said it was a lie once, early last year on Eli's thread and then when I saw that bothered you - I STOPPED.

You are accusing [i]me[/i] of attacking post-trib people? Sister, why do you entertain such a strange delusion! When and where have I taken "cheap shots at Post-Trib people" (and CONSTANTly)? Sister, I have only entered this discussion to promote a better manner of respect versus having people refer to others as having believed [i]a lie[/i]. You really should stop reading between the lines if you aren't adequately reading the lines of communication to begin with! The post that you are replying to, by the way, was not meant for [i]you[/i] (gasp!). It was a reply to Sister dorcas. And the "lie" that I mentioned was not written in regard to your words (I was actually referring to another brother who felt the "liberty" to point out the "lie" of a pre-wrath "taking away"). But now that you mention it, why do you feel such ease at labeling someone else's beliefs "a [i]lie[/i]?" I'm not a preterist, but it appears quite smug to use such divisive rhetoric toward another brother’s belief.

IF, IF we could EVER move on to discuss this all Biblically - as PreachParsly and I were trying to do - I think it would be edifying - IF we could stay with Scriptures ONLY.
...
That's why I appealed for a "theological" discussion on this Most Important Doctrine a few pages back, rather than constant whining.
...
A non-emotional, intelligent comparison of verses and chpt.s would be very edifying - I do believe - and before we are no longer allowed to meet together anymore due to persecution or Internet controls or Whatever is coming.

This particular doctrine has more Scripture in the whole of the Bible than any other doctrine in our statements of faith - as I've said before - and Jesus and Paul said - we Should know because they've "told us All things" concerning it all.

Annie, you have been on SermonIndex for quite some time (as GrannieAnnie, Me_Again, and now HE_Reigns). You know that there is a plethora of topics in which some very sincere, revival-seeking and God-loving people disagree. Do we really need to resort to such divisive rhetoric? This sort of conversation is tiring (to say the least). Can’t we just discuss the issue in a polite manner without the use of such divisive rhetoric? Is it possible that people can read all of those verses that you have provided and STILL come to a different conclusion than the one that you have provided? Are we simply not “wise” enough or “spiritual” enough to garner the respect for our leanings?

Sister, please stop entertaining the notion that I (or anyone else in this discussion) is taking "CHEAP SHOTS" at you or your particular beliefs in this matter. In fact, it is quite the opposite. I would simply like for a kinder and more gentle use of rhetoric in discussions like this! Is that possible?

:-(

Locked.