the ancient paths

There is a growing awakening and hunger amongst many today who are being stirred to 'seek after the ancient paths'.

Jer 6: [16] Thus says the LORD:
"Stand by the roads, and look,
and ask for the ancient paths,
where the good way is; and walk in it,
and find rest for your souls.
But they said, `We will not walk in it.'

In contrast to those seeking the ancient paths, there are many more who say 'we will not walk in it'. I believe that response to be coming from what I see to be a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Paul's writings. I would like to submit the following posts for consideration. Salvation has come to us through the grace of God shown us because of the glorious accomplishments of Yeshua (also known as Jesus) the Messiah. It is through this grace that we are saved, not of works, lest any man should boast.

Two warnings:

Paul warns us:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:
[1] Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren,
[2] not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
[3] Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,
[4] who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
[5] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this?
[6] And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
[8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.
[9] The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders,
[10] and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
[11] Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false,
[12] so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Peter warns us:
2Peter 3:14-17
[14] Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish;
[15] and regard the patience of our LORD as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
[17] You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability.

In these two portions from Paul and Peter, we have very clear and strong warnings about the gravity of being found in rebellion and thus lawless (anti-nomian). Paul teaches us that there would be a rebellion against the laws of God, instigated by the Man of Lawlessness (someone who teaches against the law, and in fact is without it). This man of lawlessness will also take to himself the highest of authority, and actually even claim to be God. The mystery of lawlessness was already at work in Paul's time.

Peter warns us not be be carried away by the error of the lawless. He takes care to warn us that the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction the writings of Paul, and that we should be forewarned not to be carried away with the error of such lawless ones, those who oppose the eternal Torah of God, upheld throughout the scriptures, but cast aside by the man of lawlessness.

More to come,

Sharon

Looking at the writings of John and James:

The Apostle JOHN:

Did not speak against the law of the LORD. In fact, John declares that those who transgress the law are sinning:
1John 3:4 ~ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.~

The Greek word translated "lawlessness" ,"transgression of the law" - anomia - and is shown from Strong's lexicon to be: 458 anomia AV - iniquity 12, unrighteousness 1, transgress the law + 4160 1, transgression of the law 1; 15

1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

I Jn 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome". Amen.

"Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that says, 'I know him', and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:2-5).

JAMES, the brother of Jesus: has no vehemence against the Law, and says we should all be doers of the word!

The second-century writer and historian Hegesippus referred to Jesus' brother as 'James the Just' and characterized him as zealous for the law of God. Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation, referred to the book of James as an "epistle of straw."

If anyone knew how Jesus lived and what He taught and believed, it was James, a member of Messiah's own household.

James repeatedly upholds the need to keep God's laws. He refers to God's law not as something unnecessary or optional, but as "the royal law". He specifically mentions several of the commandments, then calls them "the law of liberty", as David said in Ps 119: 44,45: "So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts."

James understood that only by obeying God's laws can mankind experience true freedom- freedom from the degrading and painful consequences of sin. He encourages each of us to be a "doer of the law".

James drew an analogy of looking into a mirror to make his point about the importance of God's commandments. "For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does" (James 1:23-25).

In other words, said James, we should look into the perfect law of liberty and evaluate where we stand in relation to God's holy, spiritual laws, which help us understand what sin is. When we look into a mirror and scrutinize our physical appearance, we may see something wrong or out of place. Yet, if we put the mirror away, we tend to forget our imperfections rather quickly because they are no longer visible to us. James shows how this physical analogy reflects an empty faith that requires nothing of us beyond mere belief.

James 2:[18] But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
[23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Next...Messiah and the Law

Jesus our Messiah confirmed and upheld the law of His Father. He did not teach against it, and told us to walk as He walked.

"Think not!" - Jesus assures us that He did not come to destroy the law but to accomplish it. He says also that we are not only to obey the law, but we are to teach others to as well:
Matt 5: [17] Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
[18] For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
[19] Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said that NO part of the law would disappear until heaven and earth pass away. If that is true, how can the law have been abolished, or nailed to the cross?

The word 'fulfill' - Strongs G4137 - to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

When my children obey the rules of our home, they 'fulfill' the rules, and do not abolish them.

Most read Matt 5:17b as......'I am not come to abolish, but to abolish'..., missing that it says 'Not to Abolish'.

Nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that Jesus would end the law or even one commandment, such as the Sabbath. Just the opposite is found in Isaiah 42:21, speaking of the Servant: “The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will MAGNIFY the law, and make it honourable.”

We are told the law would be magnified and made honourable, not destroyed. In the remainder of Matthew chapter 5 we see how Jesus has magnified the law. (Magnification causes objects to appear closer or larger than they really are, although the object does not actually change. One has to aim at and focus on the object, shining light and increasing resolution, until the object becomes absolutely clear.)

Messiah's intent was not to abolish or weaken or emasculate the Laws of God, revealed in the Old Testament, but to expand and magnify them to their full spiritual intent and conclusion. We do not earn salvation by works, but by Faith in Jesus the Messiah, who died for our sins, and who now gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to fulfill the righteousness of the Law, writing the Law on our heart.

Jesus the Messiah again stresses the importance of the Commandments:

Matthew 15: [3] But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your traditions?

Matt 19: [16] And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
[17] And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
Matt 22: [35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

Jesus also affirms the Law as taught by the scribes and Pharisees, but flat-out rejects any hypocritical practice of it.:

Matt. 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt.23[1] Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples,
[2] "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat;
[3] so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.
Here we have Jesus speaking against the doctrines and commandments of man, and those who reject and lay aside the commandments of God:

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do.
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

and later...he answered a scribe, never nullifying or speaking against the commandments of God....

Mark 12: [28] And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?"

[29] Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;
[30] and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
[31] The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
[32] And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;
[33] and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."
[34] And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any question.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (speaking of John the Baptist's parents)

The following verses show us that Messiah vehemently opposes - then, now, and in the future, those who show contempt for his God’s torah (Law), the torah that he perfectly obeyed from the God to whom he was perfectly devoted.:

Matt. 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' …

Matt. 13: [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
[42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." …

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

next ...Paul and the law

I can understand how a certain reading of Paul's words could and has given many the impression that Paul was 'vehemently against' the Law of God. Bearing in mind the warning that Peter gave us that the lawless ones twist Paul's writings to say things that he did not mean, let us examine some of his writings.

I already posted Paul's comments on the Man of Lawlessness and the Mystery of Lawlessness. Very clear there that 'anti-nomian', or 'lawLESSness' is one of the main characteristics of the Man of Sin who will be revealed in the last days.

Further pro-torah excerpts from Paul's life:

Acts 22:[12] "And one Anani'as, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there" -Ananias was the believer that God selected as the agent to restore Paul's sight, baptize him, impart the Holy Spirit, and commission him as an apostle.

Acts 21:[20] "And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed; they are all zealous for the law"
Historical sources confirm that Torah-observance was the norm among the Jewish believers in Messiah, and Paul's lifestyle did not differ in that regard. The book of Acts contains ample evidence that Paul continued to faithfully observe the law. Paul very strongly opposed those who said that one had to be circumcised and first convert to Judaism before being saved.

Acts 21:[24] "take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you but that you yourself live in observance of the law".

James and the apostles knew that Paul was Torah-observant. By joining in the purification rites it would become apparent to everyone that Paul had been living in obedience to the law. Clearly there was 'No Truth' in the rumors that Paul was teaching people to turn away from the Law.

Acts 24:[14] "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets".

Acts 25:[7] "And when he had come, the Jews who had gone down from Jerusalem stood about him, bringing against him many serious charges which they could not prove.
[8] Paul said in his defense, "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended at all."

Acts 28:[17] "After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews; and when they had gathered, he said to them, "Brethren, though I had done nothing against the people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans."

1 Tim 1:[8] "Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully,
[9] understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
[10] immoral persons, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
[11] in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted".

We are told that we are all sinners, and have fallen short of the glory of God. The law shows us where we have fallen short.

Romans 2:[12] "All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
[13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law."

Romans 3:[29-31] "Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

Romans 7:[12] So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Romans 7:[14] We know that the law is spiritual

Romans 7:[22] For in my inner being I delight in God's law

1 Corinthians 7:[19] Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Paul affirms the message of the Old Testament:

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these things were so (Acts 17:11)

The New Testament had not yet been written, so the Bereans were using the TaNaK to evaluate whether or not Paul's message was true. It is evident from this passage that the message which Paul preached did not contradict the TaNaK in any way; otherwise those noble Bereans would have rejected Paul's teachings. Neither the Old Testament nor Paul's message has changed since that time, so today we should be very cautious of any interpretation that makes Paul's message contradict the Hebrew Scriptures.

As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ, " he said. Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.

1 Timothy 4: [13] Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.

2 Timothy 3: [15] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 15 [4] For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that by steadfastness and by the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.

2 Tim 3 [16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Paul constantly affirms the reading of the Hebrew Scriptures, never once undermining or contradicting any part, teaching that everything that Moses and the prophets said would come to pass, which did not include the abolishing of the holy law of God.

Acts 26 [22] To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass:
[23] that the Christ must suffer, and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to the people and to the Gentiles."

Paul and the new believers:

Paul taught the Gentiles to obey the requirements that the elders in Jerusalem had listed in their letter to Antioch (Acts 15:29). Two of those requirements are found directly in the Law given to Moses, and two of them are logical interpretations of the Law which were part of the "fence laws" taught by the rabbis:

-abstain from food polluted by idols -- Interpreted in Leviticus 17:8-9 as also prohibiting the eating of any meat that had been offered in a prohibited manner. Endorsed in Revelation 2:14, 20. "I have this against you..."
-from sexual immorality -- from Leviticus 18:6-26
-from the meat of strangled animals -- Leviticus 17:13-15 interpreted as prohibiting the eating of strangled animals.
-and from blood -- from Leviticus 17:10, 12

It is apparent that the elders did not intend to exempt the Gentiles from the rest of the Law, as they would hear it preached every Sabbath in the synagogue. We are still required not to commit adultery, not to murder, etc

These 4 rulings were chosen as 'emergency regulations' required because of the influx of Gentiles. Jews considered all Gentiles to be idolaters, and idolatry was considered to be one of the worst sins. These new converts were fresh from the Pagan temples and had the baggage of Pagan worship and practice. Each of the four requirements suggested by James was directly related to some aspect of pagan temple worship, which was intolerable in the synagogue. The new believers would later begin to undestand the ways and teachings of the God of Israel.

There certainly would have been more debate regarding those guidelines if the apostles had actually intended to exempt the Gentile believers from the entire law of Moses and replace it with only four guidelines for Messianic behavior. Surely they would not have exempted the Gentiles from "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength" (Deut. 6:5) and "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:18) which Jesus endorsed as the greatest of commandments. Also, Peter had just finished saying (twice) that God did not differentiate between the Gentile believers and the Jewish believers, so we could expect that Peter (along with Paul) would have opposed any decision that created a permanent distinction between the two groups of believers. Obviously they could not practice adultery or any other sins that the Torah prohibited, but all this understanding would come as the attended synagogue with the believers each Sabbath. ~~

Acts 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Notice that the apostles' letter to Antioch does not refer at all to salvation or to any requirements for being saved. Evidently the consensus of the elders and apostles was that the Gentile believers were already accepted as members of God's covenant by faith in Jesus.

The believers in Antioch received the letter as a welcome answer to their original question regarding circumcision for Gentile converts. The men from Jerusalem stayed for some time to minister and teach in Antioch without any new problems developing between the Gentile and Jewish believers.

All are zealous for the law:

Acts 21:17-20 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

James couldn't have made it any plainer that at this time the Christian believers in Jerusalem were eagerly observing the law.

The attitude of these believers toward the law may have been caused by their acceptance of the new covenant that was promised by God through Jeremiah the prophet: "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts." (see Jeremiah 31:31-33) These believers may also be an example of "the obedience that comes from faith" that was the goal of Paul's apostleship.

Some final points:

Paul kept the Festivals of the LORD:

Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. (1 Corinthians 5: 6-8)

Acts 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

Paul affirmed the 5th commandment, showing it was not 'nailed to the cross': Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother"--which is the first commandment with a promise-- "that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth." (Ephesians 6:1-3)

Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. (Romans 2:25-29)

"Circumcision of the heart" is an Old Testament concept. (Lev. 26:41; Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:26; Ezek. 44:7-9) Paul is arguing against the arrogance of some who thought their ancestry, circumcision, and knowledge of the law made them superior to other believers. According to Paul, Gentile believers become Jews at heart, not in some nebulous way, but when the Spirit leads them to actually observe the laws that the literal Jews should have been obeying.

Col 2: [16] Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

At first glance, it sounds as if Paul was inferring that it didn't matter whether or not the Sabbaths and other regulations were observed. But this interpretation relies on the assumption that some believers in the congregation were disregarding the Sabbaths and other Torah laws, and that it was Jews who were causing trouble by teaching the Torah and condemning those who did not follow it. The context of the passage shows that this was not the case. Instead of teaching the Scriptures, those who were causing trouble were teaching "deceptive philosophy", "human tradition", "idle notions", and "human commands". In clear contrast to that, the Sabbaths, feasts, and the Torah diet were created by God himself (Lev. 11 & 23) and were part of the Scriptures that Paul endorsed as "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."

This ties up with the warnings given in Revelation about those who teach the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed to idols: "But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication." Revelation 2:14

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." Revelation 2:20

When we re-examine the rest of Paul's writings within the context of Paul's lifestyle, we find there are no passages that clearly support the idea that some of God's Torah instructions have been rendered obsolete. While some might appear to say that, but when read in the light of the rest of scriptures, the life and teachings of Jesus the Messiah and the other apostles, and also Peter's warning re those who are Lawless who twist the writings of Paul, we see that Paul's writings are in harmony.

To sum up, the only vehemence of the Law that I see preached by Paul, is against those who would require circumcision and full torah observance of those gentiles who were turning to God from their pagan ways. Paul stressed that these new brethren are accepted into the household of God by their faith and trust in the death and accomplishment of Jesus the Messiah. They would thereafter begin to 'purify themselves as He is pure', and follow in the teachings of the Lord, becoming a set-apart people, and not returning to their old ways, but rather seek the ancient ways, wherein there is life.

Thank you.
And may God bless you,
Sharon

Sorry about the length!

Hi everyone.

Wildbranch, I'm not certain I understand you here? Are you suggesting that believers are obligated to observe the entire law of Moses?

In connection with circumcision, you wrote,

"According to Paul, Gentile believers become Jews at heart, not in some nebulous way, but when the Spirit leads them to actually observe the laws that the literal Jews should have been obeying."

Is this what you mean by laws that literal Jews should have been observing? Are you including circumcision here also?

The apostle Paul wrote,

[b][color=000000] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. [/color][/b]

- Galatains 5:2-4(KJV)

And of the debt of doing the whole law he wrote

[b][color=000000]...it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 3:10(KJV)

And to Peter he asked

[b][color=000000]If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? [/color][/b]

- Galatians 2:14(KJV)

What exactly are you trying to compell us to do?

Thank you for your time,

Chris

Hi again Wildbranch,

I noticed also you wrote,

"There certainly would have been more debate regarding those guidelines if the apostles had actually intended to exempt the Gentile believers from the entire law of Moses and replace it with only four guidelines for Messianic behavior."

And...

"Also, Peter had just finished saying (twice) that God did not differentiate between the Gentile believers and the Jewish believers..."

That is in refrence to recieving the Holy Spirit(v8), but after that he says

[b][color=000000]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [/color][/b]

- Acts 15:10(KJV)

What exactly are you saying should be put upon believers?

Thanks again,

Chris

romans 14:17 "for the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"

phil

Sharon,

Do you believe that when a person dies to sin that they are then alive to the law?

If a person has been saved through faith in Christ is he now under obligation to keep the law which could not save him, with the comfort of knowing that if he does not succeed Christ will intervene again and forgive his transgressions, but will do so with the object of again placing him under an obligation to keep the law?

In Christ,

Ron

Hi Chris

Your first question was quoted from Acts I believe:

Acts.15: [1] But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
[2] And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.
[10] Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

I understand here that Peter rebuked those who required the circumcision of adult Gentile converts in order for them to become part of the covenant people of Israel. Clearly that was not part of the Good News, which declared that the Gentiles could now 'come as they are', and be reconciled to God through the accomplishment of Jesus the Messiah.

Once reconciled, they would slowly learn His ways and begin to walk in newness of life, through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:21 says that Moses is read every Sabbath in the synagogues. The new believers would then be instructed in how they should walk, as they searched the scriptures (OT), and heard the Torah (5 books of Moses) preached every Sabbath day.

Thank you

Sharon

:-)

Chris, your second question to me was - What exactly are you trying to compel us to do?

The answer is that I am not compelling anyone to do anything. I am suggesting that we re-examine the writings of Paul in the light of some considerations:

~~~ [b]The warning given us by Peter regarding the writings of Paul[/b]:

2Peter 3:[14] Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish;
[15] and regard the patience of our LORD as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
[17] You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability.

~~~ [b]The weight of the rest of the Scriptures...[/b]

...which uphold the eternal Torah of God. The entire TaNaK, (Old Testament), through to Yeshua, the apostles, and the book of Revelations, the Torah (eternal law of God in the 5 books of Moses) is never spoken of as a 'curse' or something to be abhorred and rejected. Given that, we have to try and understand what Paul was saying. For surely one man's writings cannot turn the entire Torah of the Eternal God of Israel into a 'curse' in a few selected verses? Remember Jesus said that whoever does and teaches the commandments of God would be called Great in the Kingdom of Heaven. The NT closes with those who 'keep the commandments of God and the faith of Yeshua'. In Rev 22:14 we have "Blessed are those that do His commandments, that they might have the right to the tree of life".

~~~ [b]Paul upholds the Law in certain verses, as recorded in my earlier post.[/b] e.g.

Romans 7: 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin…

Romans 7: 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; (1 Corinthians 7: [19] Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Paul himself speaks of the [b]Mystery of LawLESSness and the Man of LawLESSness[/b] in 2 Thess.

~~~[b]Read Psalm 119 written by David...[/b]

[b]He LOVES the Laws, the Commandments, the Precepts, the Ordinances of the LORD! In fact, he DELIGHTS in the law of God, and would never think to call it a "burden" or a "curse" or a "weak and beggarly element". God forbid![/b]

Here are some examples of the Joy expressed by David, and which I can fully identify with, when considering the Torah of my God, which He has written on my heart and caused me to walk in:

Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Psalms 112:1 Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.

Psalms 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Psalms 119:24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.

Psalms 119:35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

Psalms 119:47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.

Psalms 119:69 The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.
70 Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.

Psalms 119:77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.

Psalms 119:92 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

Psalms 119:143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights.

Psalms 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

Delighting in the ways of the LORD,

Sharon

:-)

Hi sharon,

Sharon, you said,

"I understand here that Peter rebuked those who required the circumcision of adult Gentile converts in order for them to become part of the covenant people of Israel. Clearly that was not part of the Good News, which declared that the Gentiles could now 'come as they are', and be reconciled to God through the accomplishment of Jesus the Messiah.

Once reconciled, they would slowly learn His ways and begin to walk in newness of life, through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:21 says that Moses is read every Sabbath in the synagogues. The new believers would then be instructed in how they should walk, as they searched the scriptures (OT), and heard the Torah (5 books of Moses) preached every Sabbath day."

Why would Peter refer to circumcison [b]only[/b] as

"...a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

It looks as though there was more dispute than that,

[b][color=000000]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [/color][/b]

- Acts 15:5(KJV)

Not only to circumcise, but [b]to keep the law of Moses[/b]

And so the Apostles also say this in the letter

[b][color=000000] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: [/color][/b]

-Acts 15:24(KJV)

Elsewhere, I think(correct me if I'm worng), I recall you suggesting that this was a temporary, 'emergency' regulation or guidance for them?

In Acts chapter 21 verse 25 it says the same thing again.

Thank you,

Chris

Ron,

Romans 6: [11] So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.
[13] Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.
[14] For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
[15] What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

According to the above verses, (from which I think you posed your question), we are to consider ourselves dead to sin, and alive to God in Christ Jesus. We are not to let sin reign in us, or yield ourselves to it, but to live in righteousness. The quickening life that is given us when we come to God for forgiveness, (because of the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah), enables us to walk in freedom from sin, having as it says, 'the law written on our hearts'. "By no means" are we to sin, Paul says!

Let us look again at the scriptural definition of sin:

1John 3:4 [b]"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness[/b] (459), [b]and sin is lawlessness.[/b]" (459)

Thayers Greek Lexicon # 459 anomos {an'-om-os}from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3551; TDNT - 4:1086,646; adj
AV - without law 4, transgressor 2, wicked 2, lawless 1, unlawful 1; 10
[b]1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
1a) of the Gentiles
2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked[/b]

also,

Another verse found in the book of 1 John gives helpful information regarding a definition of sin. Here sin is described as [b]unrighteousness.[/b]

(1 John 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Righteousness is a word used to describe the state of being in conformity with God's laws and requirements. Consider the description of Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth found in the gospel of Luke:

(Luke 1:5-6) In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. {6} And they were both [b]righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord[/b].

These two godly people were described as being righteous in the site of God as they were observing His commandments and requirements. Furthermore in many places in scripture righteousness is contrasted with lawlessness. The obvious inference is that those who are living in consistent patterns of disobedience to God's laws are considered to be unrighteous and those acts which are contrary to God's law are considered to be unrighteous acts.

Consider also these scriptures:

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, {10} nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

(2 Corinthians 6:14) Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

It becomes clear then to me that unrighteousness is the same as lawlessness both of which describe the concept of sin. An informative verse related to these concepts is found in the book of Hebrews. The writer of this book points out the Jesus was exalted to a position above all others because he [b]hated lawlessness and loved righteousness[/b]. Again the contrast serves to define the nature of unrighteousness as lawlessness.

Sin and unrighteousness are thus breaking the law and commandments of God. [b]Paul says that we are 'by no means' to sin, that grace may abound.[/b]

John goes on to teach us what happens if we do sin, (i.e. break, violate or depart from the law) and are guilty of unrighteousness, even after beginning our walk in the Light:

1John.2 [1] My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
[2] and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
[5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
[6] he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked
[7] but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
[8] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1John.2 [1] My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
[2] and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

We are to walk [b]"In the same way that He walked"[/b]......Jesus the Messiah upheld and was obedient to the Torah of His Father. When we do so, we are alive unto God in Christ Jesus.

Ezekiel 36 [26] [b]A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
[27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances[/b].

Keeping the commands of the LORD is not an [b]obligation,[/b] but a [b]joy![/b]
That is how I understand it.
Thank you,
May He lead us into all truth, because I believe we are living in the days that Jeremiah prophesied of:

Jer.16:19 ..."to thee shall the nations (gentiles) come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nought but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit...

Sharon

Hi again Sharon,

Sharon, you asked

"For surely one man's writings cannot turn the entire Torah of the Eternal God of Israel into a 'curse' in a few selected verses?"

But in the Law it was written,

[b][color=000000] Cursed [i]be[/i] he that confirmeth not [i]all[/i] the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. [/color][/b]

- Deuteronomy, chapter 27 verse 26(KJV)

James the Apostle says

[b][color=000000]For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [i]point[/i], he is guilty of all. [/color][/b]

-James 2:10(KJV)

Chris

Chris,

Circumcision is part of the Law of God given unto Moses. These men were expecting newly converted Gentiles to be circumcised and to be observing the Torah [b]before[/b] being admitted into the fellowship of believers. This was how Gentiles had previously been converted, and the process took a long time.

Peter spoke out against this old conversion practice, welcoming the new believers into their fellowship, with 4 restrictions placed on them. I call these 4 restrictions 'emergency rulings', which would allow a brand-new convert to immediately gain access to fellowship and full acceptance. These people would have been used to pagan temple practices, and idolatory is considered absolutely abhorrent to anyone professing faith in the one God of Israel. These 4 restrictions were to do with pagan idol temple practices.

Today we might have other concerns which would be addressed when bringing in a new convert. For example, a really skimply dressed young lady might be asked to wear something a little more moderate when attending a fellowship meeting. One would not try and teach the way of discipleship to her straight away, but some things might need immediate attention, if they are totally unacceptable in a fellowship group.

[i]Obviously those 4 rulings were and are not today the only requirements that Gentiles have[/i] in order to participate in the community of believers.

Some groups and churches have very strict rulings, even adding to the commandments of God, while other groups are very liberal and allow most anything.

I believe that the standard, the plumbline, are the commandments of God as given to Moses. Many of those commandments have to do with the Ceremonial Law as pertaining to the sacrificial system, which are no longer for us today, as Messiah is now our living High Priest.

The Torah (commandments, teachings, law of God found in the 5 books of Moses), are the railway lines that a train is safest and best on, or the guide posts along the way, the ancient landmarks, which, by the power of the Holy Spirit within us, we can seek to walk in, as Jesus the Messiah did.

Sharon

Hi again Chris,

Yes, I did say that I cannot see how certain verses in one man's writings could overthrow the entire Torah of the Eternal God of Israel, and have the Torah suddenly become a 'curse'.

Especially when other verses he wrote uphold the Torah, and the Messiah himself said that those who obey the commandments and teach them to others would be called great in the Kingdom of heaven. (detailed in previous post)

I think we may have missed what the [i]curse[/i] actually is. Could the 'curse' be the punishment which is awaiting us when we break the Torah? For in the Law it is written that the person who does not keep the law is cursed, as you said. The [i]law itself[/i] is not the curse, but the [i]breaking of it[/i] results in a curse of punishment. The curse is death.

The LORD said: I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants. We are to choose LIFE, and receive the blessing, not DEATH, because then we will be cursed.

Now Messiah, the perfect one, willingly offered to take the curse on our behalf, taking on Himself our punishment for breaking the commands of the LORD. We should not take that lightly, and willingly go on breaking the commands which He paid so dearly for us because of our violating of them. We should not sin that grace may abound.

In your post you quoted from James also.

James 2[10] For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
[11] For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," said also, "Do not kill." If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

I don't see a problem with that. I think many would agree that those things are transgressing the law, and totally unacceptable for those professing to be disciples of Messiah to be engaged in.

James 2: [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, ....
verse[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Thanks,
Sharon

Sharon,

You said

"Circumcision is part of the Law of God given unto Moses. These men were expecting newly converted Gentiles to be circumcised and to be observing the Torah before being admitted into the fellowship of believers. This was how Gentiles had previously been converted, and the process took a long time.

Peter spoke out against this old conversion practice, welcoming the new believers into their fellowship, with 4 restrictions placed on them. I call these 4 restrictions 'emergency rulings', which would allow a brand-new convert to immediately gain access to fellowship and full acceptance."

But Sharon, where do you read this in the scriptures?

Sharon, who was it that established these churches? Was it these Pharasiees? Or Paul and the other Apostles?

At the end of chapter 14 it says that they had been at Anticoh a [b]...long time with the disciples. [/b]

And [b]then[/b], it says

[b][color=000000]And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. [/color][/b]

They did not say, "you cannot be amitted into fellowship", but [b][color=000000]ye cannot be saved[/color][/b].

[b]Sharon, where are you reading what you are teaching here?[/b]

Sharon, you said

"I call these 4 restrictions 'emergency rulings', which would allow a brand-new convert to immediately gain access to fellowship and full acceptance."

But these same things are mentioned again in Acts chapter 21?

Yes, these are not the only things that believers are expected to observe. But the doctrine and practice of the Church was not being called into question here, it was the teaching of these Pharisees...

[b][color=000000]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [/color][/b]

The Apostles wrote a letter in response [b]to what was being taught by these Pharisees[/b].

Sharon, Paul was a former pharisee, and he knew what was written in the law of Moses, but he says

[b][color=000000] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.[/color][/b]

He writes here also in the second chapter of Galatians, and isn't this exactly the same kind of situation we are talking about? But Titus, a greek, was not made to be circumcised?

"Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with [i]me[/i] also. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:"

- Galatians 2:1-5(KJV)

Sharon, this is really concerning. I hope you will understand my concern about this,

Thanks,

Chris

Hi again Sharon,

You said,

"...and the Messiah himself said that those who obey the commandments and teach them to others would be called great in the Kingdom of heaven. (detailed in previous post)"

Are you referring to Matthew chapter 5 verse 19?

I don't think this is [b]exactly[/b] what He said. I emphasis [b]exactly[/b] because I think there are some important distinctions made here:

The scripture says here that the Lord said

[b]one of these least commandments[/b]

[i]these...[/i]

I think He goes on to say what each of those were. I was reading this this morning and in each case, correct me if I'm worng, He starts out by saying

[b][color=660000]Ye have heard that it was said[/color][/b]

and then He qoutes from the Law or something else

and then He says

[b][color=660000]But I say unto you[/color][/b]

and this is where, I think as you pointed out, the Lord Jesus Christ magnifies the law, or expands it even. But these are specific things He says.

Also, you said

"I think we may have missed what the curse actually is. Could the 'curse' be the punishment which is awaiting us when we break the Torah?"

Paul, the apostle, wrote

[b][color=000000] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [i]is[/i] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [/color][/b]

and

[b][color=000000] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [i]is[/i] every one that hangeth on a tree: [/color][/b]

- Galatians chapter 3 verses 10 and 13(KJV)

Chris

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [i]in whom[/i] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

- Isaiah chapter 42 verse 1-3(KJV)

[i]...and the isles shall wait for his law[/i]

[b][color=660000] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/color][/b]

[b][color=660000] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [/color][/b]

- John chapter 15 verses 10 and 12(KJV)

See also John 17:8, Matthew 28:18-20, Romans 13:10 and James 2:8.

According to Paul in Romans 7 the Christian has no direct relationship with the law but is "dead to the law." Therefore it cannot come between the Christian and his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Christ Himself is his righteousness and sanctification and redemption (1 Corinthians 1:30). How is it possible that we have died to the law? In the same way as it happened that we died to sin. When Christ died, we died. This is a fact. This is the work of the cross which God has done for us and with us.

Righteousness has always been by faith, God looks upon the heart. Paul himself claimed that he was blameless when judged by the outward demands of the law but the real meaning of the law is inward so God, looking not on the outward man but the inward man, found a deceitful heart.

The gospel is God's own righteousness. In it is revealed the righteousness of God or righteousness from God. It is not a means which we can use to become righteous in ourselves, but it gives us righteousness from God by faith and unto faith. In this way the law is fulfilled. The gospel, therefore, does not confront us with the law, but with Christ. He who believes the gospel is righteous before God for time and eternity. He has not first to win righteousness, for he is fully righteous. He does not have to prove that he is fulfilling the law, for God's righteousness needs no proofs. The law has no demands to make on such a man; he is not living within its sphere and is not occupied with its "Thou shalts" and its "Thou shalt nots", but is filled with the love of God in Christ Jesus.

In Christ,

Ron

Chris,

[i]quote: "Circumcision is part of the Law of God given unto Moses. These men were expecting newly converted Gentiles to be circumcised and to be observing the Torah before being admitted into the fellowship of believers. This was how Gentiles had previously been converted, and the process took a long time.

Peter and James spoke out against this old conversion practice, welcoming the new believers into their fellowship, with 4 restrictions placed on them. I call these 4 restrictions 'emergency rulings', which would allow a brand-new convert to immediately gain access to fellowship and full acceptance."

Chris said: "But Sharon, where do you read this in the scriptures?"[/i]

I read that in the NT. Chris, let me ask you a question. :-) When we have new believers come into fellowship today, do we teach them these 4 rulings made by the Jerusalem Council, and leave it at that? I have never once heard anyone preach those 4 rulings to anyone who has been saved. Why not? Why do we not 'lay no greater burden on them, than these 4 necessary thing"s? Why do we expect even more than that?

I know most say (not all), that even the 10 Commandments are abolished or nailed to the cross, but do we not expect someone walking as a disciple of Yeshua to honour their parents, or not be practicing falsehood, or not to be stealing etc? Is the commandment to "Not Steal" a curse? Or a form of bondage? God forbid! It is Freedom! Freedom to walk uprightly.

Many church groups lay heavy, extra-biblical burdens on their congregants, burdens not even found in Torah. As Messiah said....[b]Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men......Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."[/b]

Those 4 rulings were [i]not[/i] required for salvation, even although some men from Judea had come by insisting on full conversion (Circumcision and full observation of Torah BEFORE salvation). The Jerusalem Council strongly addressed that, and did not impose those 4 restrictions on new converts as a [i]requirement[/i] for salvation, but for fellowship. Why else would they have chosen those 4 rulings to be placed on the new believers?

Greco-Roman religion, from which these new believers were saved, was the worship of many gods, goddesses, with all sorts of macabre sensual rites and sexual practices and rituals. Anything to do with pagan temple idolatory was totally unacceptable, and would have [b]no[/b] place amongst the fellowship of believers.

Peter and James did not want any synchronisation of pagan practices to take hold in the churches. Sadly, by the 3rd/4th century, most of the practices of the Romanized church were all taken from the Greco/Roman/Babylonian religions, as outlined by Alexander Hislop in his book on 'The Two Babylons'., and anything to do with the Torah of God was excised.

At the end of the giving of the 4 rulings, James declares that ..."[b]for from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues"[/b]..... In other words, the new converts would be taught the Torah while attending synagogue on the Sabbath day, and be discipled in the ways of the LORD.

Were the new gentile converts ONLY expected to obey those 4 rulings? i.e. abstain from pollution of idols, from fornication, from what is stranged and from blood? Clearly not, but it was a start. They were not giving the newcomers a [b]'license to sin'[/b], because remember, that [b]'sin is the transgression of the law'[/b] John 3:4. They were allowing the grace of our Master Yeshua to work in their lives, which would have the outworking of them becoming 'holy, as He is holy'.

The decision handed down was simple. Tell the gentiles that they must shed their pagan lifestyle and practices, then tell them that they will learn Torah in the synagogues where Moses is taught every Sabbath.

Paul personally oversaw Timothy’s circumcision. He was not bringing Timothy under a curse. Gentiles like Titus or the Galatians he encouraged to remain uncircumcised , being very clear that circumcision was not to be misunderstood as the [b]Ticket into the Kingdom[/b].

We often misunderstand Paul completely. (as Peter warned that the [b]lawless ones[/b] would do). When we forget that he was arguing against requiring Gentiles to be circumcised in order to merit salvation, we assume that he was arguing against keeping of Torah. But he was only arguing that Torah observance and circumcision could not be regarded as [i]prerequisites for salvation[/i]. Ephesians 2:8–9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

I do understand your concern Chris. Most understand Grace and Law to be mutually exclusive. I understand them to go hand in hand, as the [b]Saints are perfectly described in the book of Revelation 14: ..."those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus"[/b].

Notice that it does not say there ....[i]those who are in bondage/under a curse to the commandments of God, but those who 'keep the commandments' of God and have the 'faith of Jesus'[/i]. Perfect harmony!

In the grace, and by the grace of our Master Yeshua,

Sharon

Chris, you asked [i]"His law, Moses or Christ's?[/i]"

Ultimately, all Law comes from YHWH, the Eternal God of Israel. It was handed down to us through Moses, and later magnified by Jesus the Messiah.

[b]*If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. (John 14:15)

*He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him. (John 14:21)

*If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. (John 15:10)

*By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:2-3)

*And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. (2 John 1:6)

*John 15 (12-14) "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.

*1 John 2:3-11 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.'[/b]

The new commandment was a magnifying of the old commandment to 'love your neighbour as yourself'. [b]*Lev 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD."[/b]

Our Master Yeshua taught us to love one another, and to lay down our lives for our friends.

quote from Chris: [i]'...and the isles shall wait for his law....'[/i]
(from Isaiah 42:4)

Later in Isaiah 42:21 we read that concerning the Servant ..."The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness sake, to [b]magnify his law and make it glorious[/b].." note...[b]not make it 'a curse'[/b].

Sharon

Chris, you seem to be saying in one of your posts that when Yeshua was speaking about 'these commandments', that He was only referring to the ones that He mentioned in that discourse. I think that He was actually speaking about the "Law and the Prophets" found in the OT, which he mentioned as He began that subject. - [b]"Think not that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them."[/b] He said not until heaven and earth pass away, not one little part of them would be abolished, until all is accomplished. He later expanded our understanding of some of them.

Messiah also said that [b]unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, we would in no way enter the Kingdom of heaven.[/b]

Messiah also said that [b]the Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, and we are to do all that they say, but not what they do, for they are hypocritically not practicing what they preach.[/b]

I simply choose to follow Messiah in the grace that has been given me.

then,

Later, you quoted: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
and
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree".

Again, clearly the 'curse of the law' is the death sentence applicable to those who practice sin by transgressing the law. The Law, Teachings, Commandments (Torah) of God is NOT a curse, in fact the LORD says that choosing to obey the Law is a BLESSING and LIFE. Choosing to disregard, cast aside, or disobey the Law is DEATH and a CURSE.

HalleluYah! Thanks be to God that our Messiah Yeshua has taken and tasted that curse for us. Let us not continue in sin that grace may abound. Choose life.

Sharon

Sharon,

You asked,

"When we have new believers come into fellowship today, do we teach them these 4 rulings made by the Jerusalem Council, and leave it at that?"

There is a context here:

[b][color=000000] And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. [/color][/b]

And then

[b][color=000000] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [/color][/b]

To which Peter says

[b][color=000000]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?[/color][/b]

He asks, why tempt ye God?

How about you Sharon?

Sharon,

You said

"I think that He was actually speaking about the "Law and the Prophets" found in the OT, which he mentioned as He began that subject."

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,...[/color][/b]

[i]...these least[/i]

He states what the Law or others had said

[b][color=660000]Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time[/color][/b]

And then He says

[b][color=660000]But I say unto you...[/color][/b]

John in his record of the Gospel records these words of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant,

[b][color=660000] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/color][/b]

[b][color=660000]This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [/color][/b]

Whose law are you under?

Sharon,

You said,

"Again, clearly the 'curse of the law' is the death sentence applicable to those who practice sin by transgressing the law."

[b][color=000000]...it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [/color][/b]

that continueth not...

Sharon,

You said

"I know most say (not all), that even the 10 Commandments are abolished or nailed to the cross, but do we not expect someone walking as a disciple of Yeshua to honour their parents, or not be practicing falsehood, or not to be stealing etc? Is the commandment to "Not Steal" a curse? Or a form of bondage? God forbid! It is Freedom! Freedom to walk uprightly."

[b][color=000000]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [/color][/b]

- Romans 8:14(KJV)

[b][color=000000]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 5:18(KJV)

[b][color=000000]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 5:22-23(KJV)

[b][color=000000]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 3:24(KJV)

Sharon,

You said

"Later in Isaiah 42:21 we read that concerning the Servant ..."The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious.." note...not make it 'a curse'."

Yes,

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000]Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. [/color][/b]

- Luke 11:52(KJV)

the key of knowledge...

[b][color=000000]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [/color][/b]

- Romans 3:20(KJV)

Dear Chris

You asked "How about you Sharon?" referring to the verses: quote:
And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
And then
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
To which Peter says
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Chris, I have made it abundantly clear that I [b]agree with Peter and James- that circumcision and Torah observance are NOT REQUIRED for salvation.[/b]

[i]I am not sure why you seem to have deliberately misrepresented my position here?[/i]

Sharon

From the verse in the post referred to by Chris:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Chris, are you saying that ONLY those commandments which Yeshua then goes on to speak about in the next verses are the ones that we should be observing and teaching to others? Those concerning adultery, divorce/remarriage, swearing falsely, not resisting one who is evil, love your enemies, praying in secret, fasting, laying up treasures in heaven, sound eye, two masters, anxiety, hypocritical judging, giving dogs what is holy, etc etc. Are these the ones that you are saying are the LEAST of the commandments? [i]Which are the [b]least[/b] of the commandments?[/i] Maybe I have misunderstood what you are trying to say?

Jesus finishes up that sermon with the words: .....Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord', did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work *[b]iniquity.[/b]

[b]*Iniquity:[/b]
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Sharon

Sharon,

Also about Matthew 5:17-18,

The Lord Jesus said to the Jews in John 10:34...

[b][color=660000]Is it not written in your law...[/color][/b]

your law...

Paul says in Romans 4:15 that the law worketh wrath.

The Lord Jesus, speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem said

[b][color=660000] For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [/color][/b]

- Luke 21:22(KJV)

He said also there would be great wrath upon them.

See also Deuteronomy 27:15-26, 28:15-68.

Sharon,

You said

"Chris, I have made it abundantly clear that I agree with Peter and James- that circumcision and Torah observance are NOT REQUIRED for salvation."

Sharon,

You closed your first post in this topic this way

"Peter warns us not be be carried away by the error of the lawless. He takes care to warn us that the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction the writings of Paul, and that we should be forewarned not to be carried away with the error of such lawless ones, those who oppose the eternal Torah of God, upheld throughout the scriptures, but cast aside by the man of lawlessness."

Chris,

The quotation you gave regarding [i]'your law'[/i] from John 10:34...."Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, "I said, you are gods"?, is a direct quotation from the Psalms.

Psalm 82:6..." I say, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;"

I think Jesus said "your law', because they read from the Psalms and the rest of the OT?

Sharon

"Love never fails"

Love must fail if the Law must be kept to attain salvation and keep salvation.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Jesus fulfilled the Law by His Love for us and going to the Cross. So if Love is the fulfilling of the Law then why do we have to keep the Law of the Old testament? The only law we must Keep is the Law of Love in Christ Jesus.

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

In This Love, which is in Christ we have the fulfillment of the Word of God.

Here is the differenct and separation of the Old and the New.

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

2Ch 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, [even] in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.

Either do the Law and die or do the Law of Love in Christ Jesus and live.

Don't percecute the Lord Jesus by keeping the Law of Old, but live according to the New Law; LOVE.

Look what happened to Paul: Acts 22:1-7 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

The Law kills, but Faith and Love, that is Jesus Christ gives Life.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Let us fulfill the Word of God. Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You cannot get ridd of the promise to Abraham, "IN thy Seed", Jesus is the promise and the Seed.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

In Christ: Phillip

Greetings, Sharon.

I just want to add here my witness to the truth that Christians, whether of Jewish or Gentile background, are not under the Law of Moses.

This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

There are many Scriptures that make this abundantly clear (as others have already mentioned).

Here are just a few.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the law but under grace" (Rom. 6.14).

That's pretty clearly said, isn't it. "Not under the law..."

Oh, you mean then, we can sin now because we're not under the law but under grace? That's what Paul was accused of teaching.

No. "God forbid" (6.15).

He's saying exactly the opposite: we are not "under" the law because sin does not rule over us any more. We are "under" GRACE. The dominion and rule of GRACE. Grace is to rule, and over-rule, in our lives, just as sin once did.

And the purpose of the Law then? The Law of Moses will teach you that you are a sinner. But that's as far as it can take you. It can't take you to a higher grade. It can't make you a righteous person. So, you have to fail in the school of the law in order to pass to the school of grace.

And then? "For [b]the grace of God[/b] that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, [b]teaching us[/b] that, denying ungodiness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, godly in this present world..." (Titus 2.11,12).

In other words, "the law was our schoolmaster (our teacher) to bring us unto Christ," and the lesson the law teaches us is that we are sinners. "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3.20).

Then we come to sit under a new Teacher: the Grace of God, and there is power in Grace to actually teach us, and impart to us, the Righteousness that the law could NOT teach.

This is all about the basic simple difference between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant, which, sadly, is still to this day strange territory to a lot of Christians.

When we say we are not under the law, it doesn't mean we are advocating for lawlessness. Far from it. It simpy means that we are now under a far higher and more powerful Law: the Law of Grace, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, the Law of Liberty, the Law of Love.

And so when Jesus said He came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it, He meant exactly that. He didn't cast out and do away with the Law: He FULFILLED the Law (Mt. 5.17): and so we walk no longer in the shadow, but in the True Light, in the Very Image of the Law now.

At the Cross He fulfilled the Passover of the Law (1 Cor. 5.7).

In Acts Ch. 2, He fulfilled the Pentecost of the Law.

(And there is much that He will yet fulfill. I'm thinking of the Feast of Tabernacles yet to come.)

He fulfilled the Sabbath of the Law (and will yet fulfill it in His Church, Heb. Ch. 3 and 4).

...And so on. He fulfilled the commandments about not committing murder, or adultery, by not so much as looking upon a woman to commit adultery with her... or to even hate a man, which He calls murder... and these and All the other commandments, He will yet fulfill them in us: in His church...

All this is far, far higher than the Torah of Moses.

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven" (Mt. 5.20).

And... "the law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached..." (Lk. 16.16).

And... "The kingdom of God (not the law of Moses) is righteousness, and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not [b]the very image[/b]..." (Heb. 10.1).

It's Christ who is "the very image" of the Law.

Jesus Christ is my Law. My Torah is Jesus Christ Himself.

AD

Dear ADisciple,

Thank you for your input. I think that you have encapsulated the essence of traditional Christianity very well.

I would point out, however, that selected verses (mostly from Paul) are used to teach a concept that is not taught when reading the Scripture as a whole. A reminder here again of the warning Peter issued re Paul's writings, which "many twist to their own destruction". Paul actually observed the commandments of God ....

"...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous." (Rom1:13)

"…What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles [instruction] of God." (Rom 3:1-2)

"...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31)

"...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)

"…Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Rom 7:12

"…For we know that the Torah is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin." (Rom 7:14

"…For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man. (Rom 7:22)

The reality of where the church under this teaching stands today, shows (from my point of view), the results of centuries of such liberal Christian thought.

Purporting to be 'under Grace', and declaring that "Jesus fulfilled the law for me", has left the community of Christians in a state of being that is not recognizably different from the world.

You say that, quote: "He FULFILLED the Law (Mt. 5.17): and so we walk no longer in the shadow, but in the True Light, in the Very Image of the Law now." Who does? The Church? I am sorry, but I do not see it. The sins (transgression of the law) of the world are rampant in the church, there is no "Very Image of the Law" shining forth.

While insisting that Christians are now under a far higher and more powerful Law - higher than that which GOD himself declared unto Moses, we do not (mostly) even see the rudiments of the (lower ?) law delivered on Mt Sinai present in the adherents of Christianity. While saying that they are under this 'higher law', things like adultery and other worldly lusts and activities are tolerated and active in the church. No one even blushes. How can this be?

It did not work. While declaring the Law abolished (and not the Punishment, that is the "Handwriting of Ordinances or charges against us"), we have fooled ourselves into believing that we are living a holy lifestyle under Grace.

The Sabbath, the 7th day rest from labours is now 'fulfilled in Christ'. We apparantly now "rest in Christ' all the time. Actually most Christians I meet tend to be a little frazzled! :-) While one should find absolute peace in the knowledge of Jesus, that itself does not replace a Day of Rest, a perpetual sign of the people of God. Yet many will strongly oppose it, and even condemn to hell those who seek to live out the Torah that has now been written on their heart. Not out of obligation, but out of joyous doing because of the delight of walking in His Ways. If one does not know the reality of that, it is perhaps difficult to comprehend.

The 'Kingdom of God' means the Rulership, the Reign of God. His Kingdom has as a foundation the Torah, with Messiah Yeshua as The Cornerstone. His people will be those who have the Torah written on their heart, through the grace and accomplishment of the Messiah. His Kingdom will be one of Righteousness, Peace and Joy, which will come in those who love His ways, and turn not from them, while claiming to be under a far higher law, but are not even walking in the one given at Mount Sinai.

Jesus is the Torah - the living Torah - He perfectly obeyed His Father, and told us to walk as He walked, with the empowerment that would be given us. Jesus fulfilled the Torah, and told us to do the same, not even relaxing one of the least of the commandments. (a note here: He fulfilled the true Torah, not the man made laws of the scribes, whom He castigated for putting unnecessary burdens on men.)

You quoted from Luke 16:16, I would like to include verse 17 in that quote: [16] "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently. [17]... But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.

Thank you once again. I understand your well worded and good intentioned response, although ultimately, I cannot agree with it.

Sharon

Jeremiah 6: [16] Thus says the LORD:
"Stand by the roads, and look,
and ask for the ancient paths,
where the good way is; and walk in it,
and find rest for your souls.
But they said, `We will not walk in it.'

wildbranch wrote:
Dear ADisciple,

You say that, quote: "He FULFILLED the Law (Mt. 5.17): and so we walk no longer in the shadow, but in the True Light, in the Very Image of the Law now." Who does? The Church? I am sorry, but I do not see it. The sins (transgression of the law) of the world are rampant in the church, there is no "Very Image of the Law" shining forth.

Hi, Sharon.

It seems that the substance of your argument against what I said concerning the New Covenant is that you're sorry: you do not see it in the Church today.

I agree with you there. Largely, this is a realm the Church has not apprehended. Yet.

That doesn't nullify the truth. It is set forth before us by the apostles (who are, by the way, ministering in obedience to the ascended Christ) as a sure foundation upon which we are to build.

Deny the foundation and you are in trouble.

"For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [b]For the law made nothing perfect[/b] but the bringing in of a [b]better hope[/b] did, by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb. 7.19).

So, the Old Covenant and its Torah has been annulled because it could not make people perfect (I'm just reading Scripture). And then he says God brought in a "better HOPE."

You don't see it? Neither do I to any great extent. But I keep my Hope alive. We will see the New Covenant fulfilled just as surely as Moses was faithful to fulfill the Old. (See Heb. 3.1-6).

Are we to make the present state of Christians generally (or even of our own lives) the ruler by which we judge the writings of the apostles?

...I might add that the many Scriptures you bring up to say that Paul was advocating for the Law... if you will read them in their full context, you will see that he is clearly teaching that no man can become righteous by the deeds of the Law.

AD

Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation, referred to the book of James as an "epistle of straw."

[i]First, this quote only appears in Luther's original 1522 Preface to the New Testament. After 1522, all the editions of Luther's Bible dropped the "epistle of straw" comment, along with the entire paragraph that placed value judgments on particular biblical books. It was Luther himself who edited these comments out. For anyone to continue to cite Luther's "epistle of straw" comment against him is to do him an injustice. He saw fit to retract the comment. Subsequent citations of this quote should bear this in mind.

Second, detractors are keen on selectively quoting Luther's preface to James. Most often cited are only those comments that express negativity. If one takes the times to actually read Luther's comments about James, he praises it and considers it a "good book" "because it sets up no doctrine of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God." Rarely have I seen Luther detractors inform a reader Luther praises James, or respects God's law. On the other hand, I have seen many Catholics insist Luther was either morally corrupt or an antinomian. Luther though insists James is worthy of praise because it puts forth Gods law.[/i]

[url=http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1892]Six Points On Luther's "Epistle of Straw"[/url]

Thank you for that update on Luther retracting that remark.

Although the link to the article re the 'epistle of straw' does say that subsequent editions of the introduction to James were edited, the final point made was - quote: "Finally, Luther says he cannot include James among his chief books "though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him".

Martin Luther had some other insightful comments to make about some other writings too:

"Concerning the epistle of St. Jude, no one can deny that it is an extract or copy of St. Peter's second epistle…Therefore, although I value this book, it is an epistle that need not be counted among the chief books which are supposed to lay the foundations of faith" (Luther, M. Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude, 1546).

Perhaps none of Martin Luther's writings on the Bible are as harsh as what he wrote about "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:1):

"About this book of the Revelation of John...I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic…I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it. Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly-indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important-and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep…My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it" (Luther, M. Preface to the Revelation of St. John, 1522).

As the following quotes show, Martin Luther did not care for several books in the Old Testament either:

"Job spoke not as it stands written in his book, but only had such thoughts. It is merely the argument of a fable. It is probable that Solomon wrote and made this book."…

"Ecclesiastes ought to have been more complete. There is too much incoherent matter in it...Solomon did not, therefore, write this book."…

"The book of Esther I toss into the Elbe. I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much..."

"The history of Jonah is so monstrous that it is absolutely incredible." (as quoted in O'Hare, p. 202).

Furthermore, Martin Luther had little use for the first five books of the Old Testament (Torah):

Of the Torah/Pentateuch" he says: "We have no wish either to see or hear Moses" (Ibid, p. 202).

Martin Luther hated the Jews, which may be why he was against Esther, the first five books of the Bible, and other parts of the Hebrew scriptures.

Notice that Martin Luther advised his followers,

...to burn down Jewish schools and synagogues, and to throw pitch and sulphur into the flames; to destroy their homes; to confiscate their ready money in gold and silver; to take from them their sacred books, even the whole Bible; and if that did not help matters, to hunt them of the country like mad dogs (Luther’s Works, vol. Xx, pp. 2230-2632 as quoted in Stoddard JL. Rebuilding a Lost Faith, 1922, p.99).

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch (Martin Luther (1483-1546): On the Jews and Their Lies,

More of Luther's anti-semitism can be read here, as most of it is too vile to rewrite: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

wildbranch wrote:

Dear ADisciple,
Thank you for your input. I think that you have encapsulated the essence of traditional Christianity very well.

Hi again Sharon...

...Just took some time to think this thread through again (your point of view, I mean, and the other responses).

And if by traditional Christianity you mean "the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief corner stone" ...that's exactly where I am coming from. I don't know if I could say it more clearly than I have said it in my two previous posts... perhaps others might be able to.

And, considering the others who have responded to you along the same line... it seems you are getting pretty much a unified message here.

And so I think I will just thank you for the above compliment, and leave it at that.

AD

Sharon, what do these scriptures mean to you?

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 8:1-14 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is born again in you, by the incorruptable Seed of the Father making you a new creature in Christ Jesus? "Behold old things have passed away and behold All things are become new".

Colossians 3:1-11 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi again everyone.

This is from the first post, from Sharon

"There is a growing awakening and hunger amongst many today who are being stirred to 'seek after the ancient paths'.

Jer 6: [16] Thus says the LORD:
"Stand by the roads, and look,
and ask for the ancient paths,
where the good way is; and walk in it,
and find rest for your souls.
But they said, `We will not walk in it.'"

...and find rest for your souls.

The Lord Jesus Christ said

[b][color=660000]Come unto me, all [i]ye[/i] that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [/color][/b]

- Matthew 11:28(KJV)

[i]But they said, `We will not walk in it.[/i]

The religous leaders said

"This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day."

"Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner."

See John 9.

[b][color=660000]But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this [i]man[/i] to reign over us. [/color][/b]

- Luke 19:14(KJV)

You may understand why I posted what I did on the top of page 2 when you come to understand that wildbranch/Sharon does Not believe in the Deity of Christ/that Jesus-The Logos was or is GOD 'ĕlôhîym.

Is this true Wildbranch?

Christiaan asked: Is this true Wildbranch? (re who is Jesus)

I agree with these verses as testified to by the Apostles:

I declare along with Simon Peter, that Yeshua is the Anointed One, the Son of the living God!

[b]Matt 16: 15-17 "He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.[/b]

also, my belief is stated quite clearly in the following verses:

[b]John 17: 3 "And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent".

Luke 1: 32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end."

1 Tim 2: 5-6a: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all"

1 Cor 8: 5-6: "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth -- as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords" -- yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

Acts 4: 10-12: "be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 5: 30-31: "But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

Acts 7: 55-56: "But he (Stephen), full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God."

Heb 7:21-22 "...The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, `Thou art a priest for ever.'" This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

Rev 3:14 "The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation'.

Rom 1: 3-4 "the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.[/b]

Sharon

Quote: ChrisJD:

Matt 11: 28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

[b]Amen![/b] lines up beautifully with....

1 John 5:2-5 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. [b]And his commandments are not burdensome.[/b] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Sharon

Chris quote: The religous leaders said "This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day."

The religious leaders of the Scribes and Pharisees had changed ('added to' in this case, instead of 'taking away from') the Laws of God. They had taken away from the true intent of the law and added many extra burdens, condemning Jesus as having broken the law of the Sabbath - but Jesus affirmed that it is [b]lawful to do good on the Sabbath.[/b]

Matthew 12: [8] For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath."
[10] And behold, there was a man with a withered hand. And they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him.
[11] He said to them, "What man of you, if he has one sheep and it falls into a pit on the sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?
[12] Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath."

Sharon

Christinyou asked: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is born again in you, by the incorruptable Seed of the Father making you a new creature in Christ Jesus? "Behold old things have passed away and behold All things are become new"?

Amen and Amen, Christinyou! [b]HalleluYah, what a Saviour![/b]

Christinyou and others have posted numerous verses from the writings of Paul (almost exlusively)

These selective writings contradict other writings of Paul himself, of our Messiah Yeshua and of the other Apostles.

Here is an example of [i]apparent contradiction:[/i]

[b]Romans 3:28 (Paul) ... a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law...
James 2:24 (James) ...by works a man is justified, and not by faith only..
Romans 3:13 (Paul) ...For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Matthew 19: 17 (Jesus the Messiah) And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."[/b]

I personally do not believe that there is a contradiction, but rather a [i]misunderstanding[/i].

~~Remembering that the Apostle Peter warned us~~

2Peter 3:14-17 ... [color=000099]Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish; and regard the patience of our LORD as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability...[/color]

I fear that Traditional Christianity (as opposed to Biblical Christianity), has selectively embraced certain writings of Paul and built a doctrine which is not substantiated by the rest of Scripture.

The closing verses of the book of Revelation clearly state: ...[color=000099]Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city...[/color]

It does not say:..Blessed are they that declare abolished his commandments, or declare them a curse.....

Thanks
Sharon

I have observed strong opposition to those who remember the 4th Commandment. This contradicts the scriptures:

The closing chapters of Isaiah confirm the message that YHWH's people will be those walking in His Commandments, which include not profaning the Sabbath, not eating swine's flesh or other abominations.

Isaiah 56 tells us that [color=000099]soon His salvation will come, and His deliverance will be revealed, and blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast, who keeps the sabbath, not profaning it, and his hand from doing any evil.[/color]

Isaiah 56 also says:...[color=000099]"And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, every one who keeps the sabbath, and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant -- these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. Thus says the Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, I will gather yet others to him besides those already gathered."[/color]

May those be so blessed,
Sharon

Hi everyone

Sharon, in regards to the Sabbath day, was it lawful to gather food on it?

Jeremiah 6: 16-19
Thus says the LORD: [color=000099]"Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls. But they said, `We will not walk in it.' I set watchmen over you, saying, `Give heed to the sound of the trumpet!' But they said, `We will not give heed.' Therefore hear, O nations, and know, O congregation, what will happen to them. Hear, O earth; behold, I am bringing evil upon this people, the fruit of their devices because they have not given heed to my words; and as for my law, they have rejected it".[/color]

Jermiah 16:19 [color=000099]"O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to thee shall the nations (gentiles) come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nought but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit"[/color]

I am glad that we are living in that day, when many, many people of the nations are saying: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit".

The institutional, romanized church, wherein the doctrines and dogmas of todays Christianity were forged in the many Church Councils, is beginning to crumble. Many are seeking the authentic faith of the first century believers in Messiah, finding the ancient paths, the old landmarks, and gloriously walking therein.

Despite much persecution, these dear ones are strengthened by the verse in Revelation which calls for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Yeshua, for the time is near!

Peace to all,
In the grace of Yeshua,
Sharon
:-)

Hi Sharon, in regards to 1John 5:2-5,

The Lord Jesus said this

[b][color=660000] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/color][/b]

- John 15:10(KJV)

Sharon, in regards to Jeremiah 16:19,

you said

"I am glad that we are living in that day, when many, many people of the nations are saying: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit"."

Here's the next verse which I think makes it more clear what the lies are

[b][color=000000] Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods? [/color][/b]

- Jeremiah 16:20(KJV)

It says in Isaiah

"He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, [i]Is there[/i] not a lie in my right hand?"

- Isaiah 44:20(KJV)

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Sharon, in regards to 1John 5:2-5,

The Lord Jesus said this

[b][color=660000] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/color][/b]

[b]He sure did, Chris![/b] He also told us to [b]walk as He walked[/b].

:-)

Sharon

Hi Sharon,

"He sure did, Chris! He also told us to walk as He walked."

You mean without sin?

ChrisJD wrote:
Sharon, in regards to Jeremiah 16:19,

you said

"I am glad that we are living in that day, when many, many people of the nations are saying: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit"."

Here's the next verse which I think makes it more clear what the lies are

[b][color=000000] Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods? [/color][/b]
- Jeremiah 16:20(KJV)

You are so right, Chris! Then the next verse goes on to say:

[b][color=000000]Therefore, behold, I will make them know, this once I will make them know my power and my might, and they shall know that my name is YHWH[/color][/b]

Sharon

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Sharon,
"He sure did, Chris! He also told us to walk as He walked."
You mean without sin?

Yes, without sin (remember that sin is defined as transgression of the law). He promised to send the power of the Holy Spirit to enable us to, and if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father...

What do you think?:-)

Sharon

Hi Sharon,

Not sure what you mean here...

"You are so right, Chris! Then the next verse goes on to say:

Therefore, behold, I will make them know, this once I will make them know my power and my might, and they shall know that my name is YHWH"

Were you thinking of Exodus 3:14 and John 8:24,58?

[b][color=000000]And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. [/color][/b]

- Exodus 3:14(KJV)

[b][color=660000]...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [/color][/b]

- John 8:58(KJV)

Chris

Hi Sharon,

You said,

"Yes, without sin (remember that sin is defined as transgression of the law)."

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/color][/b]

- John 15:10(KJV)

But of the Law, Paul the Apostle writes,

[b][color=000000]...it is written, Cursed [i]is[/i] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 3:10(KJV)

quote: Therefore, behold, I will make them know, this once I will make them know my power and my might, and they shall know that my name is YHWH"
Were you thinking of Exodus 3:14 and John 8:24,58?"

No Chris - I just checked the Hebrew. It says YHWH in that verse.

Thanks

ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Sharon,
You said,
"Yes, without sin (remember that sin is defined as transgression of the law).
The Lord Jesus said
[b][color=660000]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/color][/b]

- John 15:10(KJV)

But of the Law, Paul the Apostle writes,

[b][color=000000]...it is written, Cursed [i]is[/i] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [/color][/b]

Chris, could you explain to me the difference between the law and the commandments?

I undertand that the commandments of God are contained in His Law (the Torah). Jesus kept the commandments of God. We are to walk as He walked.

Thanks
Sharon

Sharon,

You said

"No Chris - I just checked the Hebrew. It says YHWH in that verse."

According to Strong's the word translated I AM in Exodus 3:14 is

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Also accodring to Strong's the word translated LORD in Exodus 3:15 is

H3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000]...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [/color][/b]

- John 8:58(KJV)

Sharon, you said

"We are to walk as He walked."

[b][color=000000]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [/color][/b]

- Romans 8:14(KJV)

Did you see my question to you about if it was lawfull to gather food on the Sabbath day?

Chris asked:
Did you see my question to you about if it was lawfull to gather food on the Sabbath day?

Ooopsie, sorry Chris, I missed that one!

I believe the intent of the Torah there is not to gather in a crop or other foodstuffs on the Sabbath, as that would be working.

The Pharisees sought to catch Yeshua, and would like to believe that picking a few ears of wheat as they walked through the field was the same as 'gathering food'. Yeshua dispelled that notion and exposed that narrow-minded control that sought to place extra burdens on people. Their 'gotcha' moment was shown for what it was, to their embarrassment.

Chris, do you believe that Yeshua broke the Sabbath commandment?

Thanks!
Sharon

Quote:
""Amen and Amen, Christinyou! HalleluYah, what a Saviour!""

Then do you believe this?

1 John 3:9-10 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What is the sin that condemned the whole world?

By the Christ that is in us, that is His Seed that remaineth in us, we cannot commit this sin because of the Christ in us.

Do we sin? Yes, but we have an advocate with the Father for the sins we comit in the flesh.

1 John 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We cannot sin in the Spirit, that is Christ. That is if the Spirit of Christ dwell in you.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Peter 1:5-9 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

It is not the Law that we should obey, but the Christ that is in us. Which is the power of God unto our salvation. "Love one another as I have love you" and "gave myself for you."

What Keeps us? Even in our sin? Jesus Christ and the Power of God.

I can not sin the sin of Adam ever again, "because His Seed (Christ) remains in me".

Satan out, Christ in.

I can still sin because of my flesh, and praise God He has given me the ability to get rid of this flesh and to plant the incorruptable Seed in the Ground and it will bring forth much fruit.

John 12:23-24 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

We must die the same way and be resurrected in the flesh which is the last evidence of our salvation in Christ. We are saved in Spirit, "HIS SEED". We are being saved in our sould-mind and we will be saved in our body.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

We cannot live by the Law, because it kills. We can only Live Eternally in Christ Jesus by Grace through Faith, that not even being of ourselves.

1 Peter 1:3-7 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Through the incorruptable Seed birthed in us by the Father, making us son's of God, "Christ being the first born among many".

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Not my works but His that worketh in me to do of His good will and pleasure.

It is by His works we are saved, it is by His works we are being saved, it is in His works we will be saved.

The Mystery of Christ in you.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

According to the Power of God and the working of Jesus Christ in me mightily.

How will all men know that we are the disciples of Christ? Not by our righteousness, but by His righteousness made by God the Father in us. In this keeping His commandment, "Love one another".

They will know us by our Love. Unless righteousness is of Jesus Christ, it is self righteousness.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Sharon,

You said,

"I believe the intent of the Torah there is not to gather in a crop or other foodstuffs on the Sabbath, as that would be working."

The Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000]For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. [/color][/b]

- Matthew 12:8(KJV)

But as to what the law said,

[b][color=660000]...Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests [/color][/b]

- Matthew 12:3-4(KJV)

[i]LittleGift wrote:

wildbranch wrote:
Christiaan asked: Is this true Wildbranch? (re who is Jesus)
I agree with these verses as testified to by the Apostles:
I declare along with Simon Peter, that Yeshua is the Anointed One, the Son of the living God!
Matt 16: 15-17 "He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
also, my belief is stated quite clearly in the following verses:
John 17: 3 "And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent".
Luke 1: 32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end."
1 Tim 2: 5-6a: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all"
1 Cor 8: 5-6: "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth -- as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords" -- yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."
Acts 4: 10-12: "be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 5: 30-31: "But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."
Acts 7: 55-56: "But he (Stephen), full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God."
Heb 7:21-22 "...The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, `Thou art a priest for ever.'" This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens.
Rev 3:14 "The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation'.
Rom 1: 3-4 "the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hi Sharon

Just wandered over from the other thread ;-)
So can you say with Thomas, "My Lord and my God"?
Can you say with John, "The Word was God"? (Any Greek scholar - even those who are unbelievers - could tell you that the Greek of this sentence allows for no other possible meaning)
Can you agree with Jesus when He said:
"I and my Father are one";
"I am";
"my Father worketh...and I work" so making himself equal with God (the Jewish leaders accused Him of that and He didn't bother to deny it)?
...and so on...
Jeannette

Jeanette, glad that you wondered over to this thread....hope you take the time to read it.

As to your questions, they remind me of something I have read before...

[b]"..The Spanish Inquisition was directed at ridding the country of the so-called Judaising Christians. These were termed Marranos (or pigs). From the terms of the Inquisition and the comments we know that they not only kept the Sabbath but that they denied the Trinity, kept the Holy Days including Atonement and also kept the food laws. The Edict of the Faith shows the means by which the heretics could be identified. Jews and Muslims were also caught up in this persecution but the persecution was not directed at them but at the church of God which they also called Sabbatati, Insabbatati or Insabathi..." - Detailed)[/b]

If all the verses I quoted are not enough to satisfy you of my faith in God through the grace of Messiah Yeshua, nothing can. Sorry.

He did not require this type of inquisition to be held on those who came to Him...

Sharon

:-(

I have been pondering the "ancient paths" and the "good way" spoken of by Jeremiah in 6:16. There has only ever been one good way, one way of salvation, it is through the grace of Jesus Christ. This is the way that all the saints of the Bible have walked in. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the others walked this way.

Immediately after the Fall came the promise of this way. And all throughout history men have been justified by Christ's righteousness and forgiven by His blood. Of course we who live today have the benefit of a clearer view of the whole plan of salvation but there has never been any other "path".

In Christ,

Ron

[i]InTheLight wrote:
I have been pondering the "ancient paths" and the "good way" spoken of by Jeremiah in 6:16. There has only ever been one good way, one way of salvation, it is through the grace of Jesus Christ. This is the way that all the saints of the Bible have walked in. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the others walked this way.

Immediately after the Fall came the promise of this way. And all throughout history men have been justified by Christ's righteousness and forgiven by His blood. Of course we who live today have the benefit of a clearer view of the whole plan of salvation but there has never been any other "path".[/i]

I agree. Messiah Himself walked in the way, and we are to 'Walk as He Walked'.

Sharon

All Jesus required was the answer to this simple question;

Who do you say that I am?

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
[i]All Jesus required was the answer to this simple question;
Who do you say that I am?[/i]

Yes. And to that I [b]heartily agree[/b] with and stand with the Apostle Peter when he answered:

Matt 16: 15-17 "He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, [color=660000][b]"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."[/color][/b] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh
and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

In Christ, Son of the Living God,
Sharon
:-)

Quote:

""In Christ, Son of the Living God,
Sharon""

Praise God my sister.

Your brother in Christ: Phillip

Sharon, you said

"I agree. Messiah Himself walked in the way, and we are to 'Walk as He Walked'."

The Lord Jesus said,

[b][color=660000] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [/color][/b]

- John 5:19(KJV)

When a woman accused of being taken in the act of adultery was brought before Him, the Lord Jesus said

[b][color=660000]He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. [/color][/b]

- John 8:7(KJV)

In the law of Moses it was written,

[b][color=000000] And the man that committeth adultery with [i]another[/i] man's wife, [i]even he[/i] that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. [/color][/b]

- Leviticus 20:10(KJV)

After all of her accusers left, none having condemned her, He said to her

[b][color=660000]Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. [/color][/b]

- John 8:11(KJV)

Did the Lord Jesus makes this judgement by the Law of Moses, or by some other way?

Every part of the Law that is kept by a persons own righteousness works, takes away that portion of the Cross. So how much Law and ordinances and commandments do you want to keep.

Don't loose the power of the Cross in the keeping of the fourth commandment as and example.
This Sabbath keeping used as a Law as unto righteousness takes away that much of the Cross in our lives. The Sabbath is a wonderful day, but if we use it as our righteous works for God, He is saying what have you done with My Cross and My Son by proportioning commandments, ordinances and laws by keeping the Sabbaths days as our righteousness before God. Let us not forsake the assembling of ourselves in the Body of Christ His Church because of His Cross and our Love for Him, but not because it is the fourth commandment. However much you use the Law is the amount you reduce the Cross of Christ.

Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Which can only be accomplished in Christ and His Grace by faith done in the Body of Christ His Church being baptized into Him. Oh, what a Savior.

In Christ: Phillip