In Ga.3:17 Paul states that the law, which was 430 years after could not disannul that it should make the promise of no effect.In Ga.3:14 we see that that promise is the Spirit through faith.Rom3:27 Speaks of the law of faith.The law is good (I speak of 10 spoken by God)but no human loves the law if the Spirit of God is not involved.Some may disagree with our view on the first command, but I will state it.Ex.20:2 I'am the Lord your God , who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.Which is salvation.In Heb.3 we see they did not enter in because of their unbelief, they made known what they believed by their actions.After salvation we must do the same.If we love him we will obey his commands.The verse in Rom.13 states this subject in the best manner. :-)
The law
Preacher, you are correct. Many within Christianity have gone away from the commandments of our Father, using the excuse that we are 'under grace'. I prefer to use the word Torah in place of 'law', since this word has become misunderstood by many.
Very clearly, Paul respected and observed the commandments of God... I will post a few verses from Romans alone :
"...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous." (Rom1:13)
“…What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.” (Rom 3:1-2)
"...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31)
"...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)
“…Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good” (Rom 7:12
Clearly many have twisted the words of Paul to suit the greasy grace doctrine.
Also, I would ask the question of anyone who thinks that the commandments of our Father have been abolished or abrogated, "Which one of His commandments would you not want to walk according to?"
David said: 'O how I love Thy commandments' ... 'they are my daily delight'
Yeshua kept and fulfilled His Father's commandments, He did not abolish them!
Shalom
I agree that in a sense the moral law is a standard for our sanctification, but we must be careful to keep ourselves from thinking that we somehow earn merit or keep in God's grace by fulfilling the law
There seems to be a spate of folks coming on here of late and pointing to the law. We however, prefer to point to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God the Son, the Second Person of the Triune Godhead.
As a highly esteemed saint of old who is well known in these parts has said, God seeks those, "who are not so concerned to preach, or to try and influence others to a doctrine or theory, but whose main influence will be one of LIFE." He that hath the Son hath LIFE. In Christ alone is Light and Life. The Lord Jesus Christ has made us free because He has satisfied God regarding the matter of the law so now we can sing;
"Free from the law, oh, happy condition!
Jesus hath bled and there is remission!
Cursed by the law, and bruised by the Fall,
Grace hath redeemed us once for all."
Oh give Him praise today!
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
(Rev 5:13)
In Christ,
Ron
Oy Vey, we're being invaded on the Sabbath?
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hi everyone,
Strider100 and Preacher777, if I could suggest, it seems to me to be right to introduce ourselves somewhat before starting topics here.
Strider100, you had asked about what law we would not want to walk according to, and also you had qouted David as saying how the Lord's commandments were daily his delight.
It brought to mind this,
[b][color=000000]And the man that committeth adultery with [i]another[i]even he
- Leviticus chapter 20 verse 10(KJV)
As for me, I don't think I would like to have answered Amen to this one for sure:
[b][color=000000] Cursed [i]be[i]all
- Deuteronomy 27:26(KJV)
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
You are correct JG. It is the love and patience of our Father that brings us to the Kingdom, through the free gift of the Messiah.
However, let us not use this as a pretext to turn away from the commandments and instructions which He has lovingly provided for our edification and ultimate good. Shalom
I don't believe in pulling a verse from here and there and making it say something that is not Complete from an Author -
So for now - Hebrews 10 and 11.
P.S. This is far from a "greasy grace" Website - in case you hadn't noticed when you signed on.
Hope you'll read enough here to appreciate that.
Reposted below. :-)
ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone,Strider100 and Preacher777, if I could suggest, it seems to me to be right to introduce ourselves somewhat before starting topics here.
[color=9966ff] Sure Chris ... check out my profile.
However, I am a believer in the grace of God through the free gift of Messiah, Yeshua. I also believe that none of His instructions or commandments have been 'abolished' or done away with. As our brother Paul so aptly puts it ... "God Forbid!" [/color]
Strider100, you had asked about what law we would not want to walk according to, and also you had qouted David as saying how the Lord's commandments were daily his delight.
It brought to mind this,
[b][color=000000]And the man that committeth adultery with[i]another[/i] man's wife,[i]even he[/i] that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. [/color][/b] - Leviticus chapter 20 verse 10(KJV)
As for me, I don't think I would like to have answered Amen to this one for sure:
[color=9966ff] Is this a commandment that we should abolish then? :-(
Chris, I can understand one's reluctance to face the penalty for breaking this commandment. However, one doesn't have to, since Messiah Yeshua has already paid that price. halleluYah! [/color]
[b][color=000000] Cursed[i]be[/i] he that confirmeth not[i]all[/i] the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. [/color][/b] - Deuteronomy 27:26(KJV)
[color=9966ff] Chris, remember the law of God is perfect altogether. It would be foolish to throw it out because we failed to walk in it. Messiah came to take upon Himself the penalty or 'curse' for breaking this law. Now we are free to embrace his ways, knowing that we have a great High Priest who we can come to in times of trouble.
"More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold." [/color]
Strider100 wrote:
Now we are free to embrace his ways, knowing that we have a great High Priest who we can come to in times of trouble.
Come to in times of trouble? You know that you are talking about The Lord and God Jesus Christ, the saviour? Not just someone we come to when things get bad, but come to out of reverence for Him being God.
Jesus being God in itself is enough reason to come to Jesus regardless of situations. God alone is worthy of all worship and praise.
Strider100 and Preacher777, if I could suggest, it seems to me to be right to introduce ourselves somewhat before starting topics here.
[i]"Sure Chris ... check out my profile.
However, I am a believer in the grace of God through the free gift of Messiah, Yeshua. I also believe that none of His instructions or commandments have been 'abolished' or done away with. As our brother Paul so aptly puts it ... "God Forbid!"
Welcome to SermonIndex. Seems there are a number here who are new to the surroundings or at least to participation. Please share something about yourselves in the section below and do read the posts regarding the ministry that are "sticky-ed" if you haven't already. We have attempted to be somewhat different than what one might find in this style of discussion, much of that is contained within those posts.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=13&4128]Welcome & Intro
Miccah wrote:Strider100 wrote:
Now we are free to embrace his ways, knowing that we have a great High Priest who we can come to in times of trouble.
[color=0000ff] Just repeating scripture. :-)
The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. (Ps9:9)
God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in times of trouble. (Ps 46:1)
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Yeshua the Son of God. (Heb 4:14) [/color]
Come to in times of trouble? You know that you are talking about The Lord and God Jesus Christ, the saviour? Not just someone we come to when things get bad, but come to out of reverence for Him being God.
[color=0000ff] Not sure what you're asking here.[/color]
Jesus being God in itself is enough reason to come to Jesus regardless of situations. God alone is worthy of all worship and praise.
Hi Mike,
I did not know that it was a requirement to 'introduce' oneself. I have gone ahead and done that.
Just to set the record straight. I have not started any topics yet. I was replying to something posted.
Shalom
Hi everyone,
Strider100, welcome to the forums.
I would like to post something first from your introduction in the Welcome section just to have it in view, I hope it will be alright:
You said there
"I also believe that all of His words and instructions are precious and for our edification, and none of His instructions (other than the temple and sacrificial instructions) have been 'abolished' or done away with."
Strider, you said this
"Chris, remember the law of God is perfect altogether. It would be foolish to throw it out because we failed to walk in it."
But Strider, wouldn't it rather be foolish to think that we could break up the Law, or Covenant, which God made between Himself and the Children of Israel into parts and [b]it still retain it's perfection
For instance, Moses commanded that male children [b]must
Paul, the Apostle of Jesus Christ the mediator of the New Covenant, wrote this
[b][color=000000] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [/color]
- Galatians 5:2-3(KJV)
Strider, also you said
"Messiah came to take upon Himself the penalty or 'curse' for breaking this law. Now we are free to embrace his ways,..."
By His ways, do you mean the commandments which He gave to the Apostles(See Matthew 28:18-20, John 17:8, Acts 1:2)
[b]or
the Law and Covenant which God made with Children of Israel through Moses(See Exodus chapter 24 and 34:27-28)?
Those who were under the law of Moses he sprinkled with blood, saying
[b][color=000000]...Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. [/color]
- Exodus 24:8(KJV)
But Whose words are we commanded to hear now?
What was spoken from Heaven to them that saw Christ, and Moses, and Elijah,(Moses being the mediator of the Law and Elijah the prophet, having both here then the law and the prophets)but what did the voice from Heaven say
[b][color=000000] And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. [/color]
- Mark 9:7(KJV)
And should we then as Peter suggested, build a tent for Moses and Elijah?
[b][color=000000]And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. [/color]
- Mark 9:8(KJV)
What do you think?
Chris
Chris, remember the law of God is perfect altogether. It would be foolish to throw it out because we failed to walk in it. Messiah came to take upon Himself the penalty or 'curse' for breaking this law. Now we are free to embrace his ways, knowing that we have a great High Priest who we can come to in times of trouble.
It seems that you are implying that the consequence of having died to sin is that we are now alive to the law, which is really the highest expression of the will of God. But Paul declares in Romans 7 that to be under the law is to be under sin. This is the gospel. Although the law was given by God, it cannot help us to take even one step along the way of salvation. It contributed nothing to our justification, and equally can contribute nothing at all to our sanctification.
Only one power exists that is greater than sin, and that is the grace of God. It is the gospel alone that is the power of God unto us. Romans chapter 7 reveals that the law is never of any help in the Christian life and it sets the ground for the liberating truth of the gospel found in chapter 8. Paul is warning us in chapter 7 that the gospel is not a means by which we are enabled to fulfill the law and so become righteous in ourselves. If we understand the gospel this way we cannot avoid a direct confrontation with the law, thinking that we are now enabled to fulfill it. We lose that confrontation every time.
In Christ,
Ron
ChrisJD wrote:
Hi everyone,Strider100, welcome to the forums. [color=0000ff]Strider: Thankyou :-) [/color]
I would like to post something first from your introduction in the Welcome section just to have it in view, I hope it will be alright:
[color=0000ff] Strider: No Problem [/color]
You said there
"I also believe that all of His words and instructions are precious and for our edification, and none of His instructions (other than the temple and sacrificial instructions) have been 'abolished' or done away with."
Strider, you said this
"Chris, remember the law of God is perfect altogether. It would be foolish to throw it out because we failed to walk in it."
But Strider, wouldn't it rather be foolish to think that we could break up the Law, or Covenant, which God made between Himself and the Children of Israel into parts and
[b]it still retain it's perfection[/b] ?[color=0000ff] Strider: I do not recommend breaking up the Covenant into parts. That Covenant was renewed (not broken up or abolished) with the coming of Yeshua the Messiah. [/color]
For instance, Moses commanded that male children
[b]must[/b] be circumcised(Lev 12:1-3)Paul, the Apostle of Jesus Christ the mediator of the New Covenant, wrote this
[b][color=000000] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. - Galatians 5:2-3(KJV)[/color][/b]
[color=0000ff] Strider: If one reads this passage in context, it will be seen that Paul is reinforcing the teaching that you can not earn your salvation by working at it. However, it can be seen from other passages that Paul upholds the law.[b](e.g Rom 3:30-31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.)[/b] [/color]Strider, also you said
"Messiah came to take upon Himself the penalty or 'curse' for breaking this law. Now we are free to embrace his ways,..."
By His ways, do you mean the commandments which He gave to the Apostles(See Matthew 28:18-20, John 17:8, Acts 1:2)
[color=0000ff] Strider: The commandments which He gave the apostles are no different than those found in the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures) .. In fact any time the 'Scripture' is mentioned in the N.T ... it is referring to the Tanakh (misrepresented as the Old Testament) [/color]
[b]or[/b] the Law and Covenant which God made with Children of Israel through Moses(See Exodus chapter 24 and 34:27-28)?
Those who were under the law of Moses he sprinkled with blood, saying
[b][color=000000]...Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. [/color][/b] - Exodus 24:8(KJV)
[color=0000ff] Strider: The blood of Messiah has been shed and has replaced the need for blood sacrifice. This was a foreshadowing of what was to come and the Renewed Covenant. [/color]But Whose words are we commanded to hear now?
[color=0000ff] Strider: The words of Messiah echo those of His Father. There should be no confusion here. [/color]
What was spoken from Heaven to them that saw Christ, and Moses, and Elijah,(Moses being the mediator of the Law and Elijah the prophet, having both here then the law and the prophets)but what did the voice from Heaven say
[b][color=000000] And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. [/color][/b] - Mark 9:7(KJV) [color=0000ff] Strider: I agree. Hear Him, for He echoes the words of His Father, which are contained in the Scriptures. [/color]And should we then as Peter suggested, build a tent for Moses and Elijah? [color=0000ff] Strider: LOL ... Chris, If you feel like the boy scout thing, have at it, old chap! [/color]
[b][color=000000]And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. [/color][/b]
- Mark 9:8(KJV)What do you think? [color=0000ff]
Strider: I think we are going to have a lot of fun :-) [/color]
Chris
Hi Strider100,
The format of your posts makes it difficult to read. Could you perhaps use more spacing between qoutes? Thank you.
Strider, you said
"Strider: If one reads this passage in context, it will be seen that Paul is reinforcing the teaching that you can not earn your salvation by working at it."
This is what Paul actually said,
[b][color=000000] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. [/color]
[b][color=000000] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [/color]
[b][color=000000]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [/color]
- Galatians 5:1-3(KJV)
And Peter in Acts said
[b][color=000000]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [/color]
- Acts 15:10(KJV)
And Paul says he had said to Peter
[b][color=000000]...If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? [/color]
- Galatians 2:14(KJV)
I will try to respond more a bit later,
Chris
ChrisJD wrote:Strider, you said
"Strider: If one reads this passage in context, it will be seen that Paul is reinforcing the teaching that you can not earn your salvation by working at it."
This is what Paul actually said, (Gal 5:1-3)
[b][color=000000] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. [/color][/b]
[b][color=000000] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [/color][/b]
[b][color=000000]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [/color][/b] [color=0000ff] Strider: Chris, you forgot the next verse. Verse 4 says :
[b]"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you attempt to be justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."[/b] This reinforces what i said. This passage is for those who are trusting in works (especially extra rabbinical laws) for justification. However, it in no way 'abolishes' the word of God. [/color]
And Peter in Acts said
[b][color=000000]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [/color][/b] - Acts 15:10(KJV)[color=0000ff] Strider: Chris, clearly Paul is here talking about the rabbinical laws (extra to the Torah) that the pharisees burdened the people with. Surely, you are not saying that the word of God is 'bondage'. this makes no sense at all. [/color]
And Paul says he had said to Peter
[b][color=000000]...If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? [/color][/b]
- Galatians 2:14(KJV)[color=0000ff] Here again, Paul is chastising Peter for being double minded. However, Paul is referring to Peter not following 'rabbinical' practices, which were extra to the Torah. [/color]
clearly Paul is here talking about the rabbinical laws (extra to the Torah) that the pharisees burdened the people with. Surely, you are not saying that the word of God is 'bondage'. this makes no sense at all.
Rabbinical laws are not in view here, rather what is clear from the preceeding verses, in particular Acts 15:5, is that cirumcision and the law of Moses is in view. As Paul states in Galatians, when a person submits to circumcision he is submitting to the whole law;
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
(Gal 5:2-3)
...A debtor to do the whole law...
This debt, no man, outside of the Lord Jesus Christ, has ever been able to pay. Therefore it is indeed a yoke of bondage. It is a ministration of condemnation and death to our fathers and we;
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
(2Cor 3:7-11)
I will say again that although the law was given by God it cannot help us to take one step along the path of salvation.
In Christ,
Ron
did not know about the intro.Got it done
God Bless
Greetings, Preacher and Strider...
Consider this passage.
"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
"For the priesthood being changed, [b]there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
This is so clear is it not? There has been a change in the priesthood. The people of God are no longer under the Levitical priesthood.
And so, necessarily, there is made "a change also of the law."
And he doesn't leave us in the dark as to what this change of the law consists of.
The Levitical priesthood had a law to administer.
The Melchizedek priesthood also has a law to administer.
And, as we read, our Lord Jesus Christ is our great High Priest "after the order of Melchizedek."
"For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Heb. 7.18).
That law, the Torah, failed. Not that the law itself was intrinsically wrong, or unholy, or not good, but "it was "weak through the flesh" (Rom. 8.3).
It made of the people of God a bunch of failures.
Not so the New Law.
"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a [b]better[b]better
This New Law that our Great High Priest ministers from His Heavenly Throne is a far higher and far more powerful Law than the Torah of Moses.
"For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (not the Torah of Moses) hath made me FREE from the law of sin and death."
"But whoso looketh into the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY (not the Torah of Moses) and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his doing" (Jas. 1.25).
AD
Hi again everyone.
Strider,
You said
"Strider: Chris, you forgot the next verse. Verse 4 says :
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you attempt to be justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
This reinforces what i said. This passage is for those who are trusting in works (especially extra rabbinical laws) for justification. However, it in no way 'abolishes' the word of God.'"
What then, what reason is there for teaching men to be circumsied? to make them [b]unjust[b]disobedient[b]unrighteous
For fun?
If you or someone else teaches that [b]God[u]commands
Are they then lawless if they do?
Here is the entry from Vincet's Word Studies on this passage
Gal 5:4 -
Christ is become of no effect unto you (κατηργήθητε ἀπὸ Χριστοῦ)
Incorrect. Lit. ye were brought to nought from Christ. Comp. Rom_7:2, Rom_7:6. Your union with Christ is dissolved. The statement is compressed and requires to be filled out. “Ye were brought to nought and so separated from Christ.” For similar instances see Rom_9:3; Rom_11:3. The ἀπὸ from properly belongs to the supplied verb of separation. For the verb καταργεῖν see on Rom_3:3.
Ye are fallen from grace (τῆς χἁριτος ἐξεπέσατε)
For a similar phrase see 2Pe_3:17. Having put yourselves under the economy of salvation by law, you have fallen out of the economy of salvation by the grace of Christ. Paul's declarations are aimed at the Judaisers, who taught that the Christian economy was to be joined with the legal. His point is that the two are mutually exclusive. Comp. Rom_4:4, Rom_4:5, Rom_4:14, Rom_4:16.
The verb ἐκπίπτειν to fall out, in the literal sense, Act_12:7; Jam_1:11. In Class. of seamen thrown ashore, banishment, deprivation of an office, degeneration, of actors being hissed off the stage.
[b][color=000000]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [/color]
- Galatians 3:3(KJV)
Again, what reason is there to teach men to be circumcised?
To make them perfect?
[b][color=000000]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. [/color]
- Galatians 5:6(KJV)
To avail nothing?
[b][color=000000]And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offense of the cross ceased. [/color]
- Galatians 5:11(KJV)
What reason then is there to preach circumcision?
To avoid persecution?
To make the offense of the cross to cease?
Also...
"However, it in no way 'abolishes' the word of God."
We are not talking about abolishing the word of God but about commandments from the law of Moses.
Equivocation like this seems [b]deceptive
EDIT: "We are not talking about abolishing the word of God but about commandments from the law of Moses."
I think I should have phrased this this way,
"We are not talking about abolishing the word of God. We are talking about commandments from the law of Moses."
Strider,
You said
"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? - Acts 15:10(KJV)
Strider: Chris, clearly Paul is here talking about the rabbinical laws (extra to the Torah) that the pharisees burdened the people with. Surely, you are not saying that the word of God is 'bondage'. this makes no sense at all."
Peter is responding to this
[b][color=000000] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [/color]
- Acts 15:5(KJV)
Where do you read "rabbinical laws (extra to the Torah)" I don't see it? It says 'the law of Moses'?
And again, no one is talking about 'the word of God" but specificaly, the word of God by which He made a covenant with the Children of Israel
[b][color=000000]And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [i]it
- Exodus 24:7-8(KJV)
About bondage,
Paul writes,
[b][color=000000] For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [/color]
- Galatians 4:25(KJV)
Strider,
You said,
"...If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
- Galatians 2:14(KJV)
Here again, Paul is chastising Peter for being double minded. However, Paul is referring to Peter not following 'rabbinical' practices, which were extra to the Torah."
"If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles..."
Strider,
You said,
"Strider: I do not recommend breaking up the Covenant into parts. That Covenant was renewed (not broken up or abolished) with the coming of Yeshua the Messiah"
Where do you read that the covenant which God gave to Moses was renewed?
According to Strong's the word translated 'new' in Jeremiah 31:31 is
H2319
חדשׁ
châdâsh
khaw-dawsh'
From H2318; new: - fresh, new thing.
And the word translated 'new' in Matthew 26:28 is
G2537
καινός
kainos
kahee-nos'
Of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G3501 is properly so with respect to age): - new.
In Isaiah it says,
"As for me, this [i]is[i]is
Whose words? Moses' or Christs'?
Whose seed? The children of Israel? Or these...
[b][color=000000] Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me [i]are
- Isaiah 8:18(KJV)
[b][color=660000]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. [/color]
- John 17:6(KJV)
You said you do not "I do not recommend breaking up the Covenant into parts."
There was a law forbiding adultery [b]and one for it's punishment
Strider,
You said,
"By His ways, do you mean the commandments which He gave to the Apostles(See Matthew 28:18-20, John 17:8, Acts 1:2)
Strider: The commandments which He gave the apostles are no different than those found in the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures) .. In fact any time the 'Scripture' is mentioned in the N.T ... it is referring to the Tanakh (misrepresented as the Old Testament)"
In Matthew chapter 5 the Lord Jesus qoutes some of the laws of Moses saying first,
[b][color=660000]Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,[/color]
and then saying
[b][color=660000]But I say unto you[/color]
[i]I appologise if the mulitple posts are bothering anyone. It seems helpfull to me to seperate the issues
Strider,
You said,
"But Whose words are we commanded to hear now?
Strider: The words of Messiah echo those of His Father. There should be no confusion here."
The Lord Jesus Christ said
[b][color=660000] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. [/color]
Not an echo, but the very words of God.
Philippians 3:17-19 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Enemies of the Cross; For many walk, etc - The Judaizing teachers continue to preach as did James in Jerusalem; Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. These wish to incorporate circumcision, and other ordinances of the law, with the Gospel.
They are the enemies of the cross of Christ, that Paul says that is all he wants to preach, "Christ and Him Crucified". They rather attribute justification to the Levitical sacrifices, than to the sacrificial death of Christ; and thus they are enemies to that cross.
That keep the 10 commandments and all the ordnances in the Torah, Which Christ has fulfilled and taken away and made all thing New in His covenant of The Blood of the Cross.
Argue the old all you want, it has no salvation as we know it in any keeping of the Law. Historically it is the Word of God and explains what God's Plan from before the foundation of the World was to be. Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Let us follow Paul as he follows Christ, It is for His Sake that Paul was apprehended on the Road for Christ to reveal Himself in Paul and Paul to make it clear to us and fulfill the Word of God, that we have Christ in us also.
Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
In Christ: Phillip
Already wonderful posts!
Just would add that the law is now written on our hearts.
Jesus said "You have heard.........Thou shalt not kill."
"But I say............Whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause, or shall say to his brother "Raca"(feel contempt towards him), or you fool (condemns him, he is beyond salvation or redemtion) , shall be in danger of hell fire."
Jesus was establishing a greater righteousness than the law on stone tablets.
Murder begins with anger in your heart! We have sinned when we slay our brother in our heart.
Adultery begins with lust. We have sinned when we have committed adultery in our heart.
Not when we acted upon it in the physical. It is about what is in our heart. That is where judgment now begins.
Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharasees.
It is now the inward work of God in us.
In His great love,
Lowly
_________________________________________
Learn of Me for I am meek and lowly of heart........
:-)
Lowly, Very well put. I agree.
The 'law' (read: instructions, statutes, commandments) has now by the renewed covenant been written on the hearts of those who love Him, as it was promised.
However, not one jot or tittle will disappear from His instructions, statutes and commandments. They will now be written on our hearts with the indwelling Spirit giving the perfect interpretation.
Yeshua said: 'You have heard it said... But I say to you... " This flew in the face of the scribes and pharisees who had made their own interpretation of the scriptures, seeking to add burdens to the backs of men. God's word does not bring bondage, but freedom and liberty ... that is why James calls it the royal law of liberty.
It certainly does not sound to me as if the Torah has been abolished. The penalty or curse has been nailed to the cross. However, to call the instructions and statutes of God a 'curse' is unthinkable. Paul says very clearly that he upholds the law of God.
[b]Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Thanks for your insights.
Strider, with due respect, pulling one verse again out of context is what is causing all this confusion here.
The law was our "school master" to lead us to Christ.
If we walk in The Spirit - we will be walking as He did. But if we follow the law - as the written law, by the letter of the law, we've missed the whole purpose of Christ sending His Spirit to indwell us. That is the danger that those in Galatia faced and why Paul had to write so very much in Romans, etc, against this confusion that some were trying to bring into the Church.
You see it as either "greasy grace" or Torah keeping.
There is an inbetween - a new Living Way.
That is why I posted whole chpt.s and those were just the Few that I wanted to - until I checked your profile and saw that you are a male.
But just as an appeal, having "been there" before with those who are suddenly Messianic and could claim being Jewish myself, please don't pull Scriptures with us - it only hurts the Body and brings the same dissention that Paul faced on a regular basis.
There are different sects of Messianic - I, for a time, thought I'd go that way years ago - but I felt it pulled me from the rest of the Body - as if they had "one up" on those who don't use His Name in the English/Hebrew varieties they've chosen - which aren't really 'Jewish' anyway - etc.. Nothing that seperates His Body should be used to make any group above another IN Christ.
If I may - may I ask are you in the branch that believes JESUS is GOD?
As you know, there are different Messianic sects. Some have thrown out Paul altogether - some are trying to bring us back under the law - some do not feel that JESUS is GOD - so just to get to know your points better - it would help us to know.
Maybe giving a website you like best or things like that, helps us to get to know each other better sometimes.
Thank you for your considerations.
Annie
He Reigns,
You may notice that I have not replied to any of your posts. I request that you do not ask me any more personal questions about my belief. Please keep your questions to the topic at hand.
If you feel the need to enquire on a personal level, feel free to use my email which is available to all.
You will note that the rules of the board allow for differing viewpoints and to take part in discussion thereof without this type of inquisition.
Thankyou Kindly
Romans 16:17 - 20 (NKJV) 17Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Titus 3:9 - 11 (ESV) 9But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and [u]]quarrels about the law,
] :-o
"Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets, I have not come to abolish but to fulfill."
Jesus accomplished what the law could not, He has reconciled us back to the Father, He is our Peace, He is our righteousness.
Many have already stated the purpose of the law.
Paul was saying that if you choose to follow the law and put yourself under it, you will continue to be judged by the law. You will continue to be subject to it, and it will continue to produce sin and death.
So the law is still in affect for those who choose to live by it.
However, Paul was saying God Forbid, that we who are now free from the law would be liars, murderers, adulterers, full of covetousness, bearing false witness against our brothers etc.
Now, because of grace and the Spirit of Life working in us we are being perfected.
I would like to bring up Ephesians 2, the great mystery of "the one new man"
"For Christ is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us; HAVING ABOLISHISHED IN HIS FLESH THE ENMITY, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in Himself of two one new man, so making peace;
And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby"
In His great love,
Lowly
_______________________________
Learn of Me for I am meek and lowly of heart..........
Hi everyone
YOu might be interested on a thread I just posted in this section. It is very relevant to this subject
in Him
Jeannette
broclint Although there has been much said on this post, let me state the purpose.The Law is good, no were not saved by it not even kept by it were kept by Christ alone but we know sin is lawlessness.I don't like to waste time so I agree with the word you posted I need not to change anyones veiw on the law only Christ can do that. 2Tim.2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.And let every one that nameth the name of Christ
depart from iniquity.
God Bless
Edited out. Unnecessary, doesn't add anything
Preacher777 , you said :
[i][color=0000ff]The Law is good, no were not saved by it not even kept by it were kept by Christ alone but we know sin is lawlessness. I don't like to waste time so I agree with the word you posted I need not to change anyones veiw on the law only Christ can do that. 2Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.And let every one that nameth the name of Christ
depart from iniquity.
Very well put , I agree... and I appreciate your thoughts.
Shalom
Stephen
You may notice that I have not replied to any of your posts. I request that you do not ask me any more personal questions about my belief. Please keep your questions to the topic at hand.
Anne, I believe you have every right to ask this question, and we as a community have a right to KNOW where one stands on this issue right from the get go!
Those who KNOW Jesus Christ is God, will never hide that one under a bushel and say....ask me that in private:-?
Katy
Preacher777: Again, I will use your words
[i]The Law is good, no were not saved by it not even kept by it. We're kept by Christ alone but we know sin is lawlessness.
You are correct. The law (read: instructions, statutes and commanments) of our Father are for our good and without them the world would disintegrate into lawlessness.
I want to post a few verses by Paul from Romans, which emphasize Paul's love of the law of the Father:
[color=0000ff][size=xx-small][i]
"...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous." (Rom1:13)
"...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31)
"...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)
“…Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good” (Rom 7:12
“…For we know that the Torah is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin.” (Rom 7:14
“…For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man. (Rom 7:22) [/color][/size]
Yes ... after the inward man I delight in the law (statutes, instructions and commandments) of Yeshua the Messiah.
Shalom
Stephen
There is an inbetween - a new Living Way.
Amen!
Katy-did wrote:You may notice that I have not replied to any of your posts. I request that you do not ask me any more personal questions about my belief. Please keep your questions to the topic at hand.
Anne, I believe you have every right to ask this question, and we as a community have a right to KNOW where one stands on this issue right from teh get go!
Those who KNOW Jesus Christ is God, will never hide that one under a bushel and say....ask me that in private:-?
Katy
I know Katy. I know we have the right but I've just been sort of enjoying watching you and LittleGift and PASTOR CLINT quoting Titus 3:9-11 - Oh how true those words are. Paul advised Titus, "Once-Twice and then No-Shalom".
I have enjoyed your posts though. :-D
My grandmother was sent here by ship, by herself, at 14 yr.s old - alone, landing in N.Y. and then taken to Ellis Island, because her family was trying to save her from the persecution against the Jews over there.
She became a "survivor type" and she raised me.
I have to hold back the rest of what I'm thinking but I think you know.
JESUS LOVES YOU KATY-DID.
AND SO DO WE. ;-)
After reading over the different posts in this discussion, I am just want to make sure we are on the same page.
Our standing with God does not improve by our keeping the law.
I don't want to quote the whole book of Galatians so I will quote the essence of the first 4 chapters.
Galatians 3:10
For all those who rely on the law are under a curse.
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[[u][b]14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Everything in the OT was made with hands, even the law written in and on stone.....we now have written in our heart, by the Spirit of the Life of Christ in us....We don't keep the Law....HE Keeps US...therefore fulfilling the Law of the New Covenant. I will cause YOU! All Glory Goes to God...we walk a NEW and Living way...through the veil, that is to say s Flesh.
OT Saints could not enter into the Holy of Holies, but NOW WE CAN!!!! Praise God! Christ IS our Life, our righteousness, our Holiness, and we are partakers of His divine nature BY FAITH in His Promises.....2 Peter 1
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Lets not trample underfoot the Son of God, and count the BLOOD of the Covenant with which you were sanctified an unholy thing, and INSULT the Spirit of Grace. Isn't this the unforgivable sin Jesus spoke of? :eek: Insulting the Spirit of Grace ...Grace plus NOTHING.
People will believe anything but the Power of the Cross...to keep from being persecuted for preaching Christ Crucified and risen. Paul's greatest enemies were the lawyers...Jesus's too for that matter!
Katy
Katy-did said
OT Saints could not enter into the Holy of Holies, but NOW WE CAN!!!! Praise God! Christ IS our Life, our righteousness, our Holiness, and we are partakers of His divine nature BY FAITH in His Promises.....2 Peter 1
Not to get too far off subject but, this is an amazing truth. We who deserve to be eternally punished for our sins, get to enter into the presence of God by the blood of Christ.(Hebrews 10:19)
Paul advised Titus, "Once-Twice and then No-Shalom".
Who are those guys...anyway!!!
Shalom...Yeshua....Torah...:roll:
I know a little Hebrew. His name is Rabbi Lenny Finkelstein...5'6" tall, and 5'6" wide :-P Are you impressed?
:lol:
Katy
jggraves, You are precisely correct in stating that those who rely on the law for justification are still under the curse.
The law (read: statutes, instructions and commandments) can not save you.
The law (read: statutes, instructions and commandments) can not keep you.
It is only the atoning work of Messiah that can do this.
However, I trust that you are not saying that the words (Scripture) given by our Father is a curse as many seem to say.
Shalom
Stephen
Strider100 wrote:
I want to post a few verses by Paul from Romans, which emphasize Paul's love of the law of the Father:
Greetings Strider...
I'm hoping-- and I think many others here are hoping the same thing-- that we can help you see something that you appear to have a "blind spot" about. In that vein, I just want to quote a verse for all of us to remember.
"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those who oppose themselves..." (2 Tim. 2.25).
So I'm hoping that you are a sincere lover of the Truth (our Lord Jesus Christ) ...and that this is an area that for whatever reason, you just haven't "had the lightbulb go on yet."
Having said that, may I ask you one question. You are continuously trying to remind us that Paul held the Torah in high regard.
No one doubts that. (But you are continually quoting a lot of his references to the Torah out of context.)
...But I want to ask you this one thing. If Paul was advocating that the Torah still stands, and the the people of God are to continue to keep the Torah, why was the man so hated and persecuted by the Jews?
"And I brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? Then is the offence of the Cross ceased" (Gal. 5.11).
(And by "circumcision" I am sure you know... it was the one word that came to signify the bond of the covenant: by circumcision was meant the keeping of the whole Torah. Although it meant something entirely different to Abraham... but that's another matter.)
By the way, I notice that you made no comment to my previous post: maybe you're still thinking about it... but I'd appreciate an answer to this one.
Thanks,
AD
Katy-did said:
Who are those guys...anyway!!!
Shalom...Yeshua....Torah...
I know a little Hebrew. His name is Rabbi Lenny Finkelstein...5'6" tall, and 5'6" wide Are you impressed?
My reply to this Katy is ... [b][color=0000ff][size=xxx-small] Your words are disgraceful and hurtful.
I trust you can live with this hatred I detect in your posts.
Shalom in Yeshua the Messiah
Stephen
Stephen said
However, I trust that you are not saying that the words (Scripture) given by our Father is a curse as many seem to say.
The law is not a curse, but those who try to earn God's favor through are cursed by it. Not just in justification either. I think that is the point everyone is laboring to make. Even our santification is in Christ. All we have to offer God is in Christ.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? zIt was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly aportrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: bDid you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by chearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? dHaving begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by1 the flesh? 4 eDid you suffer2 so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and fworks miracles among you do so gby works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as hAbraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is ithose of faith who are jthe sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that kGod would justify3 the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, l“In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ga 3:1-9). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
You'd have to be actually Jewish to understand that Stephen. Hoping you'll learn what "Shalom" means by the way because so far you've made a hurtful disgrace of it yourself.
You're in NO position to judge Katy - believe me when I tell ya.
HIS NAME is not spoken or typed as you have - but is Ha Shem to a True Jew - so you are disgracing the Jews more than a former Jewish girl making Jewish jokes. You should hear our Jewish relative's jokes and what they say about some of the things they hear from Messianics who aren't Jewish. 'That' is NOT a good witness to our relatives, at all.
Jesus is Yehoshua and if you want to do it properly - please type "G-d".
:-(
Thank you Brothers AD and Graves.
Sorry to interrupt.
Strider,
I'm hurt for your sake for the comment by Katy.
The reproach she aimed at you fell on me.
Please forgive.
AD
"...Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting..." (Eph. 5.4).
Brothers, Katy has fought the good fight of faith here since she has been a member. She's knows The Word and uses it better than most brothers I've met.
I am sure, with the respect that she has for His Word that she meant nothing toward HIS WORD - but the words of those who use a language that is not native to them to make Gentile Christians feel of the lesser sort.
I have been reading Paul all day and I do believe with the tears he shed in Acts 20 and reading all of Galatians and Romans - he would not be having his eyes on Katy this day but on those who have come with a different Gospel and a different Jesus.
She has earnestly contended for The Faith - while others have come bringing nothing but discord and insults.
She is Jewish besides or was but is - as we all actually are according to Paul. She needs to be seen for the full extent of time she's contended for the faith and not for her Jewish joke after much posting of Truth.
I say, Paul would not side against her this day.
Just what I feel after having to read Galatians and Romans since Saturday Night.
Thank you!
With your permission I will now kindly remove myself from this post. With the current demeanour of the participants, I see no benefit to continuing this discussion.
Thankyou to all for your input.
Shalom
Stephen
Stephen...
I don't know if you'll be back for another look at this thread... but I'm sorry to see you go.
We ought to have been able to continue this critically important discussion with meekness, with maturity, and respect for one another.
What happened here was not right, and grieved my spirit.
AD
My reply to this Katy is ... Your words are disgraceful and hurtful.
Stephen, I apologize that I have offended you. I see you have never heard this before...a long standing ...one of the oldest jokes, not only among Jews but believe it or not...Pastors .
Actually Lenny is my cousin and loves it!!!! He's not offended and you shouldn't be either.
Getting back to something you have on your signature line...
The Torah (תּוֹרָה) is the most important document in Judaism, revered as the inspired word of God, traditionally said to have been revealed to Moses. The Torah, or Law, comprises the first five books of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. Christian Bibles incorporate the Hebrew Bible into its canon, where it is known as the Old Testament. Though different Christian denominations have slightly different versions of the Old Testament in their Bibles, the five books of Moses (which are also called the Pentateuch or "the Law") are common to them all.
The five books of the Torah are:
Genesis (בראשית, Bereshit: "In the beginning...")
Exodus (שמות, Shemot: "Names")
Leviticus (ויקרא, Vayyiqra: "And he called...")
Numbers (במדבר, Bamidbar: "In the desert/wilderness...")
Deuteronomy (דברים, Devarim: "Words", "Discourses", or "Things")
The Hebrew names are taken from initial words within the first verse of each book. See, for example, Genesis 1:1.
Jews have revered the Torah through the ages, as have Samaritans and Christians. It is traditionally accepted as the literal word of God as told to Moses.
Contents [hide]
1 Title
2 Structure
2.1 Contents
3 Textual history
4 In Judaism
4.1 Authorship tradition
4.2 Production and usage of a Torah scroll
4.3 The Torah as the core of Judaism
4.4 Reverence and Respect
4.5 The divine meaning of individual words and letters
4.6 The Torah and the Oral Law
[The word Torah means "teaching," "instruction," "scribe", or "law" in Hebrew. It is also known as the Five Books of Moses, the Book of Moses, the Law of Moses (Torat Moshe תּוֹרַת־מֹשֶׁה), Sefer Torah in Hebrew (which refers to the scroll cases in which the books were kept), or Pentateuch (from Greek Πεντετεύχως "five rolls or cases").
Other names current in Judaism include Hamisha Humshei Torah (חמשה חומשי תורה, "[the] five fifths/parts [of the] Torah") or simply the Humash (חוּמָשׁ "fifth"). A Sefer Torah is a formal written scroll of the five books, written by a Torah scribe under exceptionally strict requirements. The term is sometimes also used in the general sense to also include both Judaism's written law and oral law, encompassing the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash, and more.
A Sefer Torah opened for liturgical use in a synagogue service. The five books contain both a complete and ordered system of laws, particularly the 613 mitzvot (613 distinct "commandments", individually called a mitzvah), as well as a historical description of the beginnings of what came to be known as Judaism. The five books (particularly Genesis, the first part of Exodus, and much of Numbers) are, primarily, a collection of seemingly historical narratives rather than a continuous list of laws; moreover, many of the most important concepts and ideas from the Torah are found here. The book of Deuteronomy is different from the previous books; it consists of Moses' final speeches to the Children of Israel at the end of his life.
Under teh TORAH, only the blood of bulls and goats were sacrificed, never bringing anyone to it perfect. However at Calvary, this law, incomplete in itself was a Complete work at the cross. We are now made PERFECT by HIS Perfect Sacrifice.
This is the Law that HE Fulfilled. You want to bring people back under the OT Law....two entirely different concepts.
You came on here just recently...with one purpose in mind....OT Law keeping.
There are many threads on this subject here, but you started a new one right away.
One of the RULES of SI to my understanding, is that no one come here with their own AGENDA.
But I do apologize for your never hearing this joke before...older then the hills!!!!
Katy
Stephen, actually Iam more offended by your misquoting of Romans 3:30& 31.
You have:
"Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31)
This is not what the Scriptures say.
Romans 3:30&31 simply state the SINNER establishes the law in it's right use and honor by confessing his guilt and just condemnation.
Christ on the sinners behalf, establishes the Law by obediently keeping it's precepts, who endured it's penalty of death FOR US! He took our wrath and sin upon Himself.
This is why Jesus went to the Cross to begin with.....The LAW and the penalty of breaking the law was not done away....but it was done away IN CHRIST. He fulfilled the penalty of the Law...the Law of sin and death.
The Law SHOWS us our SIN. and the wages of Sin is DEATH. Jesus DIED in our place, that we may have life THROUGH HIM. It is finished....it has been fulfilled!!
This IS the Gospel!!!
Katy
Katy,
I don't know whether Stephen will be back to view your apology, but I want to thank you for the grace you've shown in posting it.
That means something to me.
(And I myself had never heard this "inside" joke before. I'm just an ordinary "garden variety" Christian. Which is perfectly fine with me. I don't need some special designation... say, "Messianic Gentile," to cut me above anyone else. He hath broken down the middle wall of partition...)
Regardless, though, I do think we need to be wise, and careful not to offend.
...Actually I think what happened here, if I'm not mistaken, is that some of the, uh, "discussion" ...on the Spurgeon/Sabbath thread-- which I knew nothing about, hadn't even clicked into it till a few minutes ago-- spilled over into this thread.
Anyway, I appreciate your understanding of this whole Torah/Messianic influence that has become such a serious leaven in the church of our day... as it was to the early Church as well.
Makes me feel that "Something" very awesome is up!
And with that ever in view, I hope we all can "be clothed with humility" as we seek to keep our Watch (which I think is the fourth watch of the night).
AD
Amen Brother AD - you have discerned correctly indeed.
I feel we need to link these threads because they are very much 'connected'.
Besides the Spurgeon-Sabbath thread that you mentioned.
LORD BLESS and protect.
One of the RULES of SI to my understanding, is that no one come here with their own AGENDA.
And the irony of it all is how it is lost on even those who ought to know better. There is one question to be asked and that to each and everyone sincerely;
Is it I?
If the behavior here doesn't change, changes will be made.
Another thread locked.