Spurgeon, A.W.Pink on Sabbath

Just an observation here... but why dont people on here argue their points using scripture anymore? Everyone quotes Spurgeon, Pink, Pratney... etc... as tho their words were God breathed.

I love Spurgeon, but if something he said doesnt jive w/ scripture, I'll dump Spurgeon in a heartbeat.

This is the same type of mentality that got me caught up in the Charismatic/WOF movememnt when I was first saved. I listened to mens opinions about the Bible instead of studying to show myself approved. But then... I was newly saved and very immature in the faith.

Just wondering...

Krispy

But if you're going to come here and begin a discussion about following the law of the Sabbath, then you should do so with much scripural backing. I have no problem discussing what men have said about this or that (reference the recent discussions about Calvinism... which is ALL about man's opinions since Calvinism is not scriptural at all)... but I believe you have an agenda, which is to convince us all that we need to observe the Sabbath. When doing so, you should have more than "Charles Spurgeon said....".

Thats all I'm saying.

Do you keep the Sabbath? If so... which one? Saturday? Sunday? Do you allow for other believers to keep one day holy, and yet another believe to keep another day holy... as Paul did?

I'm not against a day of rest, and making that day a special day during the week in which you dedicate it totally to the Lord. My issue is when people make a law out of which day, which time of day, what you should or shouldnt do...

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Krispy

wildbranch/Sharon, why would you take that Sister's post and bring it here to display and answer, when she gave Scriptures that you left out of her post.

Spurgeon, Pink, and the poster who's post you partially quoted also believe in The Deity of Christ - you Don't.

I'm sorry that I do see that as a Main factor in ALL things - for "No other Foundation can be laid, But Christ" ... anything that you try to build unto a 'different' foundation will not stand before HIM - The Alpha and The Omega, the First and The Last.

How can you fault the poster you've quoted ?

Castigate - no. Sincere heart felt concern for one who is a member - yes.

I feel we should be concerned for each other. I'm into "each othering" as Chip Brogden and those teach. We should care. To care is not 'bating'. I posted Scriptures for your consideration because I still do feel that it is important to our souls to see Him rightly.

That was it and always has been.

Only The Word of God - both Christ Himself and His Word can "judge and condemn" - it is not something I can do.

Just a little FYI here. A Messianic Jew is not just Jewish believers, but a system of beliefs, representing both Jew and Gentile Believers.

Although I am a Born-Again Jew, I consider myself a COMPLETED Jew, because I am COMPLETE in Christ.

There are many things this Messianic System believes, and many you may be surprised. Some do not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ.

Many do not believe in the complete Atonement at the Cross, but believe that won't be fulfilled until Jesus returns to earth. Wrong Answer! And because of these INCOMPLETE and inconsistencies we have the sabbath-keepers.

"Messianic Judaism" is the term used to define a system of belief and practice embraced by Jewish and non-Jewish people who believe in Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). Messianic Jews maintain a lifestyle and form of worship that identifies them with Jewish customs and traditions while believing that Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth is the promised Messiah of the Jewish Scriptures.

Messianic Judaism is part of the universal Body of Messiah, but Messianic believers claim the right to express themselves in a way that identifies with Jewish heritage and with the original Jewish context of belief in Yeshua.

However, reading Galatians, no such practices are taught by Paul.

Love in Christ
Katy

Sharon, actually I appreciate the fact that it was brought to light in this thread that you apparently question the diety of Christ. (at least thats what I have gotten out of this)

Thats important for me to know when discussing [b]anything[/b] with you because if we dont have Christ's diety in common... we have nothing in common... and therefore nothing to discuss.

At the beginning of this thread I did not know that piece of important information.

Krispy

wildbranch wrote:

One or two people stood up for the remembering of the 4th commandment, while others opposed it, even hinting that one might be 'fallen from grace' to engage in Sabbath keeping.

Who exactly do you think is against the keeping of the 4th commandment? I'm all [i]for[/i] it personally!

To say that someone who advocates keeping the [i]essential meaning[/i] of the 4th commandment is against that commandment is as ridiculous as saying that [i]Jesus[/i] opposed the Laws against murder or adultery, when He said that anyone who thinks or desires to commit the sin has already done it in his heart!

Keeping the true Sabbath is - as I said - far, far more (NOT LESS!) than keeping one day in seven.

I would just like to point out that Charles Spurgeon and A.W. Pink had a good understanding on the 4th commandment, and I do not believe that they were blind, or had any dishonest agenda:

[b]FROM CHARLES SPURGEON'S CATECHISM (WHAT IS TO BE TAUGHT TO CHILDREN):

49 Q Which is the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment is, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor they cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

50 Q What is required in the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment requires the keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12).

51 Q How is the Sabbath to be sanctified?

A The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days (Le 23:3), and spending the whole time in the public and private exercises of God's worship (Ps 92:1,2 Isa 58:13,14), except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and mercy (Mt 12:11,12).[/b]

Quoting from a [i]children's[/i] catechism seems a little dishonest though. One wouldn't attempt to explain the subject any further to a child (ie in the light of the New Covenant).

For one thing, children need clear rules and boundaries, so any futher expolanation would only confuse. And if the child didn't yet know the Lord he wouldn't be [i]able[/i] to keep the Sabbath as it should be kept anyway - any more than an unsaved adult!

Maybe someone, who knows more of Spurgeon's writings than I do, can find out where he writes of the meaning behind the Sabbath law? I can't imagine such a great preacher could be ignorant of it.

As Paul said:
Galatians 3:23f
[color=990000]23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.[/color]

Also in Jeremiah 31 it speaks of the [i]law written on the heart[/i], rather than on tablets of stone.

"...the reason why people become Hyper-Calvinists and Antinomians, is because some, who profess to be Calvinists, often keep back part of the truth, and do not, as Paul did, "declare all the counsel of God"; they select certain parts of Scripture, where their own particular views are taught, and pass by other aspects of God's truth. Such preachers as John Newton, and in later times, your own Christmas Evans, were men who preached the whole truth of God; they kept back nothing that God has revealed; and, as the result of their preaching, Antinomianism could not find a foot-hold anywhere." (Charles Spurgeon, Gospel of Sovereign Grace).

"It is to be feared that some zealous brethren have preached the doctrine of justification by faith not only so boldly and so plainly, but also so baldly and so out of all connection with other truth, that they have led men into presumptuous confidences, and have appeared to lend their countenance to a species of Antinomianism very much to be dreaded. From a dead, fruitless, inoperative faith we may earnestly pray, "Good Lord, deliver us," yet may we be unconsciously, fostering it." (Charles Spurgeon, Faith and Regeneration)[/b]

I certainly get the impression you are in support of failing to keep "the whole counsel of God" through your extremely limited view on the meaning of the Sabbath.

But presumably the above quotes are [i]not[/i] meant to confess this!

So what do you mean?

they select certain parts of Scripture, where their own particular views are taught, and pass by other aspects of God's truth.

No doubt we all do this, however hard we try not to, but at least some of us are willing to face that possibility. For example, the danger of doing that is the main reason I'm not a Calvinist, [i]or[/i] an Arminian, and (while having opinions on the matter) don't commit myself re theories on the exact scenario of "the Last Days".

Can't you even consider the [i]possibility[/i] that there is more to the Sabbath than merely keeping one day in seven as a rest day? It certainly seems as if you, and some others here, are so locked into this aspect that you can't see anything else. ...Even to the extent of imagining that others of us oppose the 4th commandment because we speak of the wider, spiritual truth of it!

in Him

Jeannette

wildbranch wrote:
HeReigns,

Are you castigating me for quoting from a fellow-posters comments and then addressing that portion? I see that done over and over again on the message board, and yet you feel to address me...

As to the deity issue- Do you not recall that the moderators requested that the subject be closed? Why are you constantly baiting me to enter into the debate again? You have in the past judged and condemned me, and now you are again trying to convene a 'pre-judgement seat' here.

If you wish to continue addressing me on this subject, in a personal way, HeReigns, feel free to contact me via my e-mail. I will be more than happy to address all your concerns.

Sharon

Actually, Sharon I think Annie (HE_Reigns) was trying to "defend" me, because of the way she (rightly or wrongly) felt you dealt with my post!

It's the old mother sheep instinct (I have it too), concern for the lambs who are under attack or might be caused to stumble...

Your post didn't bother me in that way, although I did get frustrated because you apparently won't even [i]try[/i] to consider or understand what I was saying!

...Dear Annie, I'm a grown up lamb now, and don't really need you to rush to my defence (at least I think that was what you were doing) ;-)

Sharon, when you post your own agendas on this forum you can expect to be opposed, because you clearly don't want a discussion, just to push your own false teachings onto others.

Some of the things I [i]wanted[/i] to say to you were probably stronger than anything Annie wrote. But for the Lord's sake, and for the sake of those reading this, and for [i]your[/i] sake...

Blessings

Jeannette

I, however, feel confident because of His mercy and grace, and because of my High Priest and Advocate, Yeshua Ha Maschiach, to approach the day of judgement with every hope of being rewarded with eternal life. Thank you.

OK, you don't feel your forgiveness of sin was complete the moment you received Jesus Christ?

Sharon, why all the pretentiousness with this [u][b]Yeshua Ha Maschiach[/b][/u]stuff? do you think it gives you more power or authority or something ? I'm not impressed by it, and never was!!!! Sounds Harsh Huh! But I can see through all the pretentiousness a *void* of the true **Gospel**.No matter how many names you know God by.

There are many cults and sects calling themselves Messianic this or that using this language.

Sharon, who do you say Jesus Christ is? You replied back to Krispy with:

However, I rest assured in the knowledge that I stand accepted by the Most High God through the wonderful and glorious accomplishment of Yeshua, the Anointed One, the Son of the living God, and you will have to take up your case against me, with Him.

Is your Yeshua not God? You call Him *[u]The Atoned one[/u]*. That's rather new and different. Is He the atoned one, or the One who has atoned?

Katy

Katy-did wrote:

I, however, feel confident because of His mercy and grace, and because of my High Priest and Advocate, Yeshua Ha Maschiach, to approach the day of judgement with every hope of being rewarded with eternal life. Thank you.

...Sharon, why all the pretentiousness with this [u][b]Yeshua Ha Maschiach[/b][/u]stuff? do you think it gives you more power or authority or something ? I'm not impressed by it, and never was!!!! Sounds Harsh Huh! But I can see through all the pretentiousness a *void* of the true **Gospel**.No matter how many names you know God by.

Remember the sons of Sceva in Acts?

If you are a fluent Hebrew speaker you would naturally use Hebrew terms when speaking with other Hebrew speakers. Even if you were Jewish by descent, (like Katy) but not a Hebrew speaker, it would still be an affectation.

Sharon, who do you say Jesus Christ is?..

If you can't accept even basic truths where [i]are[/i] you going to be on the day of Judgement?

This is said out of concern, not to condemn.

Wake up! Before it's too late.

Jeannette

Katy-did,

Wildbranch said :

Quote. [color=0000ff]I, however, feel confident because of His mercy and grace, and because of my High Priest and Advocate, Yeshua Ha Maschiach, to approach the day of judgement with every hope of being rewarded with eternal life. Thank you.[/color] Unquote.

This sounds like a wonderful testimony and quite scriptural. Why would you want to attack this ? You are correct in saying this sounds very HARSH.

Your use of the terms "cults and sects" sounds rude and unnecessary.

Katy-did, you said:

Quote: [color=0000ff]Is your Yeshua not God? You call Him *The Atoned one*. That's rather new and different. Is He the atoned one, or the One who has atoned? [/color] Unquote.

On reading Wildbranch's post I don't see 'atoned' One, but rather 'Anointed' One. You know that there is a very distinct difference between 'atoned' and 'anointed' no doubt? You should probably get back to her on this, because if you have confused me, I can only imagine her horror and amazement. :-)

LOL ... i'd be laughing is this wasn't such a sad testimony and poor witnesss to someone who seems to be sincerely seeking.

Shalom,

Stephen

[color=00000][b] "O for a thousand tongues to sing my great Redeemers' praise" [/color][/b]

Jesus Christ is Lord God Almighty

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Acts 17:27-29
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Colossians 3
1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Strider100, First of all, welcome to SI. I see you are new here.

And Yes, I apologize, Sharon did say Jesus is the anointed one....yet denies the Deity Of Jesus Christ, so how can this *anointed one* atone for anyone's sin?

If she see's him only as a man, and doesn't believe she is forgiven of sin, but has to wait until judgment day to see if " HER WORKS?" are good enough????? Hummmmmm! Doesn't sound like much of a testimony to me at all.

Edited:
Has anyone told you, you are a New Creation in Christ...no longer Jew or Gentile?

So to call oneself a Messianic Jew I find rather odd. Even Jews who deny Jesus Christ as the son of God call themselves Messianic Jews, because they are STILL waiting for the Messiah, rejecting Jesus Christ as the Messiah. and many Messianic Jews...real Jews, who believe as Sharon does, that Jesus is not God, still practice the Law, don't believe in the Complete Atonement, laid right up at the alter in Heaven itself.

So, much like the Catholics, you do not believe in the **Finished work of Christ** either.?????

So, we still have "ISSUES" here.

Sharon has been with us a while and much of this conversation goes back to other threads.

She and I have had several conversations, and she knows where I stand on these issues of her wanting to be a Jew rather then a *Christian*

The Disciples...(((followers of Jesus Christ))) were first called *Christians*...followers of CHRIST, not Messianic Jews.

Abel,Job, Enoch, Noah etc, were not Messianic Jew either, but put their faith in the coming redeemer.. They also knew whom they believed.

Love in Christ
Katy

wildbranch wrote:

...As for me ... I know in Whom I have believed.

And if not, how can you really know Him?

Jeannette

Sharon, So sorry you find yourself dumbfounded, but by your own admitting, you do not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ. You have been accused of this over and over, and have said NOTHING in your defense here. Why? Without this absolute TRUTH everything you say is suspect.

Can you say...Jesus Christ is LORD?

Do you believe you have been sanctified once and for all through the Body of Christ? Hebrews 10.

And If you are waiting until Judgment day to see if perchance you will be given eternal life...YOU DO NOT believe in the Finished work of Christ.

These accusations are by your own testimony.

Are you Born Again. Have you identified with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection Life? Has the Spirit of the Life of Jesus Christ SET YOU FREE from the Law of Sin and Death?...His Risen Life.....the Jesus we no longer see after the flesh, but the Glorified Christ sitting at the Right hand of the Father? Have you been raised up together with Him, seated with Him in Heavenly Places? Are you COMPLETE in Him?

Do you live by Grace or the Law.

Paul said.. I am crucified with Christ….no longer I but Christ in me, and the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the only begotten son who loved me and gave Himself for me…I DO NOT MAKE VOID THE GRACE OF GOD, for if RIGHTEOUSNESS come by KEEPING THE LAW, Christ died in vain.

What does Galatians 2:20&21 mean to you.

Do you KNOW Jesus Christ?

Sharon, no one is trying to be mean here, however to preach ANOTHER JESUS will offend many believers here. If your Jesus isn't God, you are preaching another Jesus.

Now er could all take Krispy's lead, and not talk to you at all, and when you carry on because you are confronted, I will most definitely follow suit!

Love in Christ
Katy

Katy-did wrote:
If your Jesus isn't God, you are preaching another Jesus.

That is the sad truth.

Wildbranch,

This topic seems to have gone off topic. I've just read yr first post on Spurgeon. Very interesting and telling point he makes.

Quote "...the reason why people become Hyper-Calvinists and Antinomians, is because some, who profess to be Calvinists, often keep back part of the truth, and do not, as Paul did, "declare all the counsel of God"; they select certain parts of Scripture, where their own particular views are taught, and pass by other aspects of God's truth. Such preachers as John Newton, and in later times, your own Christmas Evans, were men who preached the whole truth of God; they kept back nothing that God has revealed; and, as the result of their preaching, Antinomianism could not find a foot-hold anywhere." (Charles Spurgeon, Gospel of Sovereign Grace). Unquote.

It seems that Spurgeon understood the saving grace of God without rejecting the 'other aspects', as he puts it, of God's word. Even a preliminary reading of the works of John Newton and many other soldiers such as Spurgeon and Wesley will show that we have gone offtrack into rabid antinomianism.

Clearly we have something to learn here.

I am very encouraged by the fortitude you seem to exhibit in the face of persecution. Shalom

Stephen

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Have you noticed the signature scripture on someone?

"Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31)

This is not what the Scriptures say.

Romans : simply state the SINNER establishes the law in it's right use and honor by confessing his guilt and just condemnation. Christ on the sinners behalf, establishes the Law by obediently keeping it's precepts, who endured it's penalty of death FOR US! He took our wrath and sin upon Himself. This is why Jesus went to the Cross to begin with.....The LAW and the penalty of breaking the law was not done away....but it was done away IN CHRIST. He fulfilled the penalty of the Law...teh Law of sin and death. The Law SHOWS us our SIN. and the wages of Sin is DEATH. Jesus DIED in our place, that we may have life THROUGH HIM.

This IS the Gospel!!!

Love in Christ
Katy

wildbranch wrote:
Little Gift siad: ... [color=003300] Merely knowing a name and thinking that gives a right to anything is more akin to witchcraft (ie knowing the name of a deity or demon in order to be able to control it - or perhaps to impress in this case?) [/color]

[b] [size=medium]Little Gift, are you accusing me of witchcraft or just pretentiousness, or both? [/b][/size]

Or are you simply degrading and attacking my character ?

Sharon

We have a saying in the UK, "If the cap fits - wear it"

If the cap fits is your problem, not mine.

Jeannette

Sharon... you're being a bit over sensitive, arent you? You come to this forum (which we're glad to have you here!) knowing full well you do not believe as we believe... and then are surprised when your theology and ideas are met with resistance?

Krispy

If anyone gets a moment, this is a great article.

It's long, but please read to the end. You'll be glad you did.

http://mysite.verizon.net/trueapologetics/messianicmove.html

Katy

If perchance you did read this article, please keep in mind these scriptures.

Jude 1:18-20
18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Romans 9:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Philippians 3
1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Ephesians 4:

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

To the Church...the Body of Christ...the NEW Creatures In Christ Jesus.

Katy

Thank you Katy, I've downloaded the article and copied it into Word to print out and maybe read away from the computer. At first glance it seems an excellent site.

I have come across folk who are trying to be "more Jewish than the Jews", but they were otherwise fairly orthodox in their beliefs. I had no idea there were such extreme and off the wall groupings as well.

I also liked your Jewish joke on the other thread :lol:! I think Jewish humour may be similar to Irish and Welsh humour - we poke fun at ourselves a lot of the time too!

Maybe I'll start a thread on the subject of national humour - we probably need a bit of comic relief!

Blessings

Jeannette

I have come across folk who are trying to be "more Jewish than the Jews"

Thanks Jeannette,
Actually in reference to your quote here....the ONLY True test that qualifies of a true blue blooded Jew is if your Mother puts you on a guilt trip and keeps you there 24/7!!! :-P

I love your idea.

Katy

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Sharon... you're being a bit over sensitive, arent you? You come to this forum (which we're glad to have you here!) knowing full well you do not believe as we believe... and then are surprised when your theology and ideas are met with resistance?

Krispy

We argue and discuss many things here, and many of us have strong views on certain aspects of Bible interpretation, and are unwilling to budge from them.

**We may even think that those of other views are heretics! [**EDIT, this sentence got put in the wrong place in original post!]

But that is a world away from deliberately bringing up topics as a means of [i]forcing[/i] one's own views on others. Especially when such views are basically cultic in nature, not Christian.

One can tell if they are "cultic" by a person's unwillingness and/or inability to even [i]consider[/i] in the light of Scripture, what others bring up that doesn't agree with the fixed obsession of the cult member.

Through this forum, and othere Internet dialogues, I have certainly been caused to look again at some doctrines I thought I understood as fully as possible, and had settled in my mind about. Probably others have found the same.

We may end up of the same basic opinion as before, even confirmed in it; but at least we have had the courage and honesty to examine other possible interpretations and understandings.

Being unwilling or unable to do this, even when others are gracious in their disagreement (as Krispy has been here (he will probably tell you he isn't always! ;-)) shows what spirit such a person is of.

Blessings

Jeannette

Sharon...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [b]was[/b] God.

John 1:10 He was in the world, [b]and the world was [u]made by him[/u][/b], and the world knew him not.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name [u]Emmanuel[/u], which being interpreted is, [b]God with us[/b].

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name [b]Emmanuel[/b]. (which in Matthew it's interpreted [b]God with us[/b])

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, [b][u]I AM[/u][/b].

The prophet Isaiah called Jesus God. The writers of the gospels called Jesus God. And then Jesus used the very name of God to describe Himself. Either Jesus is God, or the Bible (including the OT) is junk, not worth the paper it's printed on... and Jesus pulled off the great hoax in the history of the planet.

No, sister, Jesus is God...

Krispy

But then again, after reading the long, bloody account of how millions have fared in the hands of 'loving Christians', - actually not surprised.

All I can tell you is... they were not Christians.

Kinda like the lovers of John Calvin, the opressor of Geneva. He could do no wrong in the eyes of some on this forum... yet he was nothing more than a brutal tyrant... in the name of Jesus, of course.

Krispy

What is the Office of Jesus Christ our High Priest ???

My use of the phrase "Yeshua Ha Maschiach" is done specifically to state exactly Whom I speak of. quote: ..."I, however, feel confident because of His mercy and grace, and because of my High Priest and Advocate, Yeshua Ha Maschiach, to approach the day of judgement with every hope of being rewarded with eternal life. Thank you."...

It was used to clearly show whom my High Priest, Mediator, and Advocate is.

This is what one needs to KNOW ..

In the eighth chapter of Hebrews we see a contrast from the OLD Priesthood under the LAW( Old Covenant) to Jesus, the priest and mediator of the New Covenant, stating it is superior to the priesthood and mediator of the old. Also in Hebrews 8 is the contrast in the ministries of Jesus. As a priest, he is as high as the heavens. As a mediator, he is as close as our hearts. The ministry of Jesus is higher than any other, and it is lower than any other....teh mediator between God and MAn, making the ministry of Jesus superior to all others because it is **heavenly** and it changes the **heart**.

In Hebrews 7, the author presents Jesus Christ as a priest according to the order of Melchizedek, superior to the Levitical priests in Israel chiefly because He is eternal.

Hebrews 8 shifts to the **heavenly** aspect of the priesthood of Jesus, which enables a powerful ministry that is in effect here on earth, through the Power of the Holy Spirit indwelt in the believer. In verse 6, where the author of Hebrews says that Jesus has obtained "a more excellent ministry," in which he is a priest (8:1-6) and the mediator of a NEW Covenant (8:6-13). [u][b]In each case the ministry of Jesus New Covenant is shown to be superior to the Old Covenant.[/b][/u]

The old was by the flesh, the New is by the Spirit.

In the first seven chapters, Jesus is said to be the great high priest. In the last six chapters, He presents the New Covenant. Connecting this whole book together, Jesus is the HIGH PRIEST who mediates the New Covenant.

The New Covenant in His Blood...the BLOOD of the Everlasting Covenant...Hebrews 13:20 & 21.where HE is making you perfect in every good work to do His will:

Please read:

The High Priesthood

20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

How is Jesus High Priesthood working now in us on earth?

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Love in Christ
Katy

Sharon, your recent tirade reminds me of the saying, "Attack is the best means of defence".

By claiming you are being unjustly judged or accused, you think to divert attention from the main focus of this thread.

We have been very patient with you for the most part, but everything you have said (and especially the manner of it) recently seems to [i]confirm[/i] that you have no wish for real, honest discussion, only to push your own agenda.

Attempting to justify yourself by accusing others of attacking you is just a ploy to avoid facing the truth.

Jeannette

wildbranch wrote:
LittleGift quote: [i] Especially when such views are basically cultic in nature, not Christian....[/i].

I quite emphatically stated Whom I believe Jesus Christ my Lord to be....

...[i]Let me repost for clarification..[/i].
[color=000000]Please let me know which one of the following verses deem me as 'cultic'. Also, please identify in Scripture where someone believing these things is interoggated and judged as cultic for believing them...

...LittleGift. Which of the above verses lend you to pass judgement and use terms such a 'cultic' and 'witchcraft', when referring to my beliefs? Also, where in the Scriptures does anyone insist on any other statement of belief? Please clearly outline your case against me, being very sure that when you take the case to the Most High God, He will confirm your judgement.[/color]...

You seem to have conveniently forgotten what I [i][u]actually[/u][/i] said about the evidence that someone belongs to a cult, or cult-like body.

Let me remind you (my emphasis, below):

One can tell if they are "cultic" by a person's [b][u]unwillingness and/or inability to even consider in the light of Scripture, what others bring up that doesn't agree with the fixed obsession[/b][/u] of the cult member.

Through this forum, and other Internet dialogues, I have certainly been caused to look again at some doctrines I thought I understood as fully as possible, and had settled in my mind about. Probably others have found the same.

We may end up of the same basic opinion as before, even confirmed in it; but at least we have had [u][b]the courage and honesty to examine other possible interpretations and understandings.

Being unwilling or unable to do this, even when others are gracious in their disagreement[/b][/u] as Krispy has been here (he will probably tell you he isn't always! ;-)) [b][u]shows what spirit such a person is of[/u][/b]

Sharon, you have [b][u]cleverly sidestepped what I actually [i]said[/i][/u][/b], and pretended that I was challenging Scripture. This is [b][u]another typical characteristic of a cult member[/u][/b] that I didn't think to mention, and further evidence of the truth that you do indeed belong to something that is cultic in nature.

The only other kind of people (as a group) who habitually sidestep and wriggle out of challenges and awkward questions like this (they, like you, are extremely good at it) are politicians!

I quite emphatically stated Whom I believe Jesus Christ my Lord to be....

Sharon, if you feel yourself judged you only have yourself to blame. The more strongly you state that you believe in the Lord Jesus (or Yeshua, if you insist); the more you defend your relationship with Him; the more you complain about being persecuted (or whatever) the more obvious [i]you[/i] make it that our fears for you are only too well-founded. (Yes, fears [i]FOR YOU[/i]).

No one is condemning, only seeking to show you the truth before it is too late! Right doctrine is less important than the condition of a person's heart (for example, I wasn't sure about the deity of Christ when first saved), but [i]some[/i] false doctrines can lead to disaster for the one who believes them. They are truly doctrines of demons, and the effect on many of those who embrace those teachings show that this is so. The manner and methods of JW's or Mormons seem very similar to yours, Sharon, that is the worrying thing.

Sharon, [i]for the sake of your own soul[/i], ask the Lord if your relationship with Him is as you suppose it to be. Never mind about us and what we think or say - ask HIM if the things that have been said here, that have offended you so much, have any basis. There is no need to fear if you will only go to Him, for He is merciful.

I've had to do that over many things, (though not over beliefs) since becoming a Christian, so am not asking anything I've not had to do myself.

If you are able to come to Him in sincerity and truth on this matter, He will not condemn nor cast you out, for He loves you far more than any of us possibly could. But if you keep on avoiding and wriggling out of this challenge you will never be free, and may in the end lose everything.

I have not judged you, you have judged yourself, in claiming to be justified.

As Katy said:

Sharon, So sorry you find yourself dumbfounded, but by your own admitting, you do not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ. You have been accused of this over and over, and have said NOTHING in your defense here. Why? Without this absolute TRUTH everything you say is suspect.

Can you say...Jesus Christ is LORD?

Do you believe you have been sanctified once and for all through the Body of Christ? Hebrews 10.

And If you are waiting until Judgment day to see if perchance you will be given eternal life...YOU DO NOT believe in the Finished work of Christ.

These accusations are by your own testimony....

In His love (truly!)

Jeannette

Wildbranch said:
Have you addressed the subject of this thread?

I don't think you commented on it...

Jeannette

Just asked a friend this question - thought it was time to get a new take on the whole thing.

[b]Q: [color=0033FF]what is your understanding of the meaning of the Sabbath?[/color]

A: [color=0033FF]the Sabbath isn't a day it is a person " come unto me all you who labour and I will give you rest"

In the old testament it was a day but we live in a new day 24/7[/color][/b]

WOW, YES!!!

Jeannette

Nile, please, could we close this subject if it offends so many?

Re-read your last two threads if you must hear it all again, please. For the Love of Christ.

Here is the second of the two.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20396&forum=36#159777

Just to answer your first statement above only -

[i]Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I Am, ye shall die in your sins.[/i]

John Wesley on Joh 8:24 - " If ye believe not that I AM - Here (as in Joh_8:58) our Lord claims the Divine name, I AM, Exo_3:14."

Vincent's Word Studies ~ "I am (εγω ειμι) the words are rather the solemn expression of His absolute divine being, as in Joh_8:58 : “If ye believe not that I am.”
See Deu_32:39; Isa_43:10; and compare Joh_8:28, Joh_8:58 of this chapter, and Joh_13:19."

A.T. Roberson ~ "The phrase egō eimi occurs three times here (Joh_8:24, Joh_8:28, Joh_8:58) and also in Joh_13:19"

_________________________________________

We love you and are praying for your prayer requests.

Nile,

Just to comment on your excellent post :

1. The scriptures never explicitly say a person must believe Jesus is God to be saved. The best there is are inferences.

[i][b][color=330099]
You are correct. Given that, it amazes me that some have been burned for this 'crime'. [/color][/b][/i]

2. The scriputres never explicitly say that Jesus is God. Verses like Titus 2:13 are hotly debated on the correct translation (look up "granville sharp's rule"). Verses like "My Lord, my God" are not declarations that Jesus is God - that view must be infered from the verses.

[i][b][color=330099]Nile, again ... you are correct. Many of these verses have been doctored by the 'orthodox'. After many years of searching this subject out with the 'blinkers off', I have come the conclusion that there is no evidence for the godman doctrine.[/color][/b][/i]

3. The apostles and disciples never explicitly teach the doctrine that Jesus is God. You will find no discourse on the divinity of Jesus and the importance of believing in this doctrine. If it is not worhty of a single paragraph in the whole of Paul's writtings, why do people advocate it so strongly? (We see many paragraphs on who Jesus was, but simply no paragraphs on the fact that he was God.)

[i][b][color=003399]Excellent point Nile. It always amazes me that Paul, a Pharisee, who would have strongly believed in the Oneness of God would so casually have moved over to believing that God was 3 in 1 or 1 in 3. These Jewish people had for so long resisted the pagan godman, trinity myths, (to the point of giving there lives for it). You would think that Paul, in trying to convince them would have at least given a single paragraph in the scriptures to this!!! However, there is not a single mention that the SHEMA (God is ONE), has changed and the God is now three in one)... and yet Christianity has based it's entire standing on this ... astounding.[/color][/b][/i]

4. Everyone should realize that Sharon has studied these topics for some years now. Simply quoting John 1:1 or Titus 2:13 isn't going to rock her boat. You'll have to formulate your arguments much more precisely than that, and be ready to defend every point you make.

[i][b][color=330099]Nile, I haven't been on the board for long. However, from what i've seen of Sharon's posts, I see one who has a lot of depth ... and sincerity to boot. Unlike some of the attack hounds I see knipping at her heels. ( anyway, I guess she's gone now :-( . I trust these little 'attack poodles' (quote from her post) are happy now. In my opinion, it is our loss.)[/color][/b][/i]

5. I think those who said they cannot learn anything from Sharon should strongly reconsider that statement. If nothing else you can learn how to respectfully, courteously, and intelligently discuss a topic (not to say that no one else is doing these things).

[i][b][color=330099]I agree.[/color][/b][/i]

6. This topic was not about the deity of Jesus but on the keeping of the Sabbath (and the deeper issure of following the Law).

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

Thank You Miccah,

The main distinction of the first day is that on this day the Lord Jesus rose from the dead.

The word Sabbath implies a cessation of, God ceased His work of creation and rested on the Sabbath or 7th day.

Christ finished His work of redemption **It is finished** and rested on the Sabbath.

Christ truly perfected the law in His perfect sacrifice, His finished work of redemption, and His Sabbath rest.

For the Christian, Saturday or the Sabbath is the day of the ***dead Christ resting*** in the tomb.

Sunday is the day of the ****living Christ, alive forever more****.

The Sabbath commemorates the end of the old creation.

Not only was the first day of the week the day Jesus was resurrected,:

1. It was the day when Jesus first appeared to His disciples with a commission to evangelize John 20:19-23.

2. On Sunday the first gospel sermon was preached about Christ's death and resurrection Acts 2:1, Pentecost was always on Sunday

3. On that day the first converts were baptized and gathered into a Christian church Acts 2:41

4. On Sunday the disciples at Troas gathered together to break bread take the Lord's Supper, and Paul preached to them Acts 20:7.

5. On the first day of the week the Corinthian believers were to lay aside their gifts for the Lord's work I Cor. 16:2.

We serve a LIVING Savior.

I wonder, if SDA's or any other worshiping on Saturday really know what they are doing.....Are you saying Jesus didn't rise from the dead?

If He didn't **rise**, then your sin is not forgiven.

Your worshiping a day Jesus was still in the Grave...hummmmm!

Now connect that with the Deity of Christ, and Hebrews 13:20 & 21.....

So this Everlasting Covenant you say is still in effect for the Sabbath Day has actually NOW passed with the Risen Christ to the New Day...the Day of our Jesus Christ!

Love in Christ
Katy

Revelation 11:19 hen the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail

When Jesus died on the Cross, the veil in the Temple was rent exactly the same time Jesus flesh was pierced in His side, signifying the way into the Holy of Holies had veen opened (( The Tabernacle of God))

The Holy of Holies is that Temple or Tabernacle

and that which was made with Hands was a picture/pattern of Jesus Christ Himself.

Because we can only come to God through Jesus Christ.....all outside of Christ will endure the wrath and Judgement coming.

Hebrews 10: 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

All wisdom and knowledge is in Christ.....

Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Colossians 2:2-4

2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

2 Corinthians 3:

13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Those still under the Law of Moses are blinded and have not the Wisdom that is in Christ...and have not entered through the veil.

Galatians 2:
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Katy

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of any holy day, or in the new moon, or of SABBATH DAYS"

"which are but a shadow of things to come; BUT THE BODY IS OF CHRIST" [Col:3 vss 16 +]

The JUDEAIZERS followed Paul's ministry around like flies on honey, ripping away the foundations of Grace and Mercy, replacing them with the deadly chains of the LAW. Christ was the end of the law, and righteousness for all who believed.

In my somewhat limited exposure to "Messianic" "believers" in Israel, and here in America, I was stunned to discover that many, many Messianics view Jesus as another balance to even out the scales of the Law. They claim Him, yet cling to all the customs,[especially in Israel]and worse, traditions that Judaism provide.

Whether if this is done to avoid persecution, I do not know. There is a heightened hatred of Jesus as Lord in Israel.

Many of you in America may support these Organizations without realizing that they are not Christian at all, but have simply adopted the lingo. American Christians are very generous in giving to the true Messianics in Israel, and there is money to be made, and, remember, like "Jehovah's witnesses", some are very, very sincere, in attributing Jesus of Nazareth angel status, or less. They may keep their legalism and true belief system hid, also, for financial gain. People don't like to support cults.

Saying that, maybe a more gentle approach would have been appropriate. On the other hand, Paul, speaking of the wolf who comes knocking on your door SELLING.

"If any man comes to you with another gospel, Do not let him in your door!" [para]

Another thought on the Sabbath.

"I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be unto them a God, and they shall be to me a people"

Born again Christians have God the Spirit to walk with, and obey, not a belief system.

The Sabbath rest is ABIDING in the resting God the Spirit dwelling in every Born Again Christian.

So many Sabbath keepers are nice, on Saturday, or Sunday, dress up and go to a meeting, nap a bit, and relax, and have an easy day of it, but yet bear the filthiest and blackest selfish heart imaginable, Sabbath after Sabbath, Shabot after Shabot. The religious crowd is the worst, for they despise the freedom of walking in Jesus Free, and as then, is now. They loathe a Spirit filled believer who believes that Christ is the END of the Law, and righteousness for all who BELIEVE.

Paul wished that these who bound others with the chains they themselves bore would be "cut off".

Christ has came that we may be free, so be not entangled again in the "YOKE OF BONDAGE"!