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Watchman Nee and Confucianism

M
murrcolr

I was on another thread dicussing Head Covering some of the teaching they where using was Watcman Nee's

I went to the site where to read up on it. Nee in his teaching get calls God's judgement, God's Government. I discern the words he used where very controling to manipulate the reader. I went investigating and came up with what is quoted.

Watchman Nee learned this concept of delegated authority from the ethics of Confucianism. Confucius taught that parents should always be obeyed, that they were never wrong, but if they were they should still be obeyed. Among Confucianists loyalty is one of the greatest virtues and can lead to the blind loyalty described in Nee's statement.

Watchman Nee learned this concept of delegated authority from the ethics of Confucianism. Confucius taught that parents should always be obeyed, that they were never wrong, but if they were they should still be obeyed. Among Confucianists loyalty is one of the greatest virtues and can lead to the blind loyalty described in Nee's statement.

To bring this concept into Christianity antagonizes one of the most fundamental principles of New Testament Christianity, the Priesthood of all believers. When the veil of the Temple was torn in half God was signifying that we all now have equal access to Him. There is no person who has spiritual authority (power) over us. We are all siblings in Christ and there is no chain of command among siblings.

Authority in the New Testament is of a completely different order. In some settings in our life we experience the kind of leadership that has the power of command. Our jobs are many times an example. But in the church a very different kind of leadership is needed

https://www.watchman.org/cults/onemasterchrist.htm

Quote taken from the site above.

S
sermonindex

You could be right. For several years after first coming to the Lord I was very blessed and helped by some of Watchman Nee's books. Especially [i]The Release of the Spirit[/i];[i]Sit, Walk, Stand[/i]; [i]The Normal Christian Life[/i] and [i]What Shall This Man Do?[/i].

However, there were other books of his that were also published, that I never managed to read. Part of the reason for this was that certain groups that were into "heavy shepherding" (in the 1970's I think) were all for some of these books, especially ones that spoke of "governmental" issues in the Church.

At the time I still thought Watchman Nee was wonderful, but just couldn't get on with these later published books. I don't know if that was a reaction against the churches that took up that aspect of his teachings or whether I was discerning something not quite right, but not realising it consciously.

These books were, if I remember, compilations of talks and teachings he had given, so they may not have actually been given later than those in the other books, but could it be that he had started well but "gone off"?

It's so tragic when a man of God such as Watchman Nee goes astray - especially because many are led astray after him.

But it is certainly possible... :-(


Jeannette

I
InTheLight

Just some caution here;

First, I would hesitate to pass judgment on a brother based on some clip from a so-called discernment website. I believe Watchman Nee has taken a bad rap because of his association with Witness Lee, who took some of his teachings and ran in the wrong direction with them. Lets just be careful here and search these things out for ourselves.(in case you're wondering, I'm not a Watchman Nee devotee although I have been blessed by some things he wrote, especially The Normal Christian Life.)

Second, ad hominem arguments don't acomplish much and in the end, they really are just a way of avoiding the issue of whether or not what someone says concerning a topic of discussion is scriptural or not.

In Christ,

Ron

M
murrcolr


HeadCovering Love One Another, CFP, by Watchman Nee


The matter of head covering belongs to God’s government. For those who do not know God’s government, it is impossible to exhort them to have their heads covered. They will not be able to understand how much is involved in this matter. But those who have seen God’s government in God’s revealed Word are able to appreciate the tremendous connection between head covering and God’s government

This statement above is dreadful and is cultish sounding.

Without saying anymore about the above statement and losing anyone, I will press on below Watchman Nee gives us some examples of God government and his understanding of it.



Examples of God’s Government
1. ADAM
You remember the tragic story of Adam’s fall. After God created Adam, He planted a garden and put man in charge of it. God literally gave this garden to Adam and Eve. “Eden” means “pleasure.” So this first couple lived in a garden of pleasure. Then they sinned against God. Even though God gave them the promise of redemption, saying that a Savior would come as the seed of the women, yet He drove them out of the Garden of Eden. It is God’s grace to save, but that did not change God’s government in driving out Adam and Eve.

Not only was Adam thrown out of Eden, but also God set cherubim to guard the garden so that Adam could not again enter. This too is God’s government. Thus we can see that God’s government and God’s grace are two separate matters. Grace gives man the promise of a Savior, [b]but God’s government drives that same man out of the Garden of Eden[/b].

2. THE ISRAELITES
Having arrived at Kadesh-Barnea, the Israelites refused to enter into Canaan; consequently, God denied them that privilege. Though they repented and then tried to enter, many of them were killed by the Canaanites, for God had barred the way. Their cries did not change God’s decision (Num. 13 and 14). [b]God has His governmental act; He will not allow men to interfere with His government.[/b]

3. MOSES
Moses did not sanctify the Lord before the eyes of the people when he smote the rock twice; as a consequence he could not enter into Canaan (Num. 20:7-12). Though God had mercy on him by bringing him to the top of Pisgah, He did not allow him to enter Canaan with His people. Moses could view the land with God on Pisgah, but he could not enter in (see Deut. 34). For Moses to see the boundaries of the land of Canaan from the mountaintop was God’s grace; [b]for him not to be allowed to enter in was God’s government.[/b]

4. DAVID
After David sinned, God was gracious and merciful to him in forgiving his sin. God even gave him special grace after that incident by permitting David to have unusual fellowship with Him. Yet the sword never left his house (2 Sam. 12:7-14). [b]This is God’s government[/b] .

5. PAUL AND BARNABAS
Paul and Barnabas separated from each other because of Mark (Acts 15:37-39). Mark was Barnabas’ relative (Col. 4:10). He deserted Paul and Barnabas on their first missionary trip, but Barnabas was willing to take him again on the next trip. Clearly this was due to their relationship in the flesh. After Barnabas was separated from Paul, he took Mark to Cyprus, their native place, indicating that they worked together according to the fleshly relationship. Though it may be that Barnabas was still used of God and still did a good work, nevertheless the Holy Spirit took his name out of the Bible thereafter. No doubt his name is in the book of life, but it is no longer recorded in the book of Acts. [b]This is God’s government. Under the government of God, man is not free to walk in his own way.[/b]


As you can see from the above quotes from Watchman Nee in point 1 to 5 which are highlighted Nee states that these acts are God’s Government. These acts are acts of Judgment which are a part of Goverment. Government does more than make Judgments.

Think about the Government in your country know I know it can never stand up to God's Government. But the Government in your country does more than make judgements on situations or people. It’s the same with God government to say that God government only judges even though that judgements are righteous is wrong and is not giving a full picture of Gods government.

Look at this statemnt taken from above.



Grace gives man the promise of a Savior, but God’s government drives that same man out of the Garden of Eden.


No God's government gives grace, saviour and judgement and more much much more.

Nee clearly does not understand government.

S
sermonindex

I pray no one brings up head coverings on this thread.

This is about "Authority" and bringing it out further - to the teachings of all "Spokesmen for The LORD".

I read Spiritual Authority back in the early 80's and followed it to the letter. I tied in that teaching with the "dying to self" teaching, which I still believe in, but through Scripture - Romans 8:28 is FOR 29. The ALL things that happen to us, are to conform us into His Image, if we see that HE allows these "all things" for that purpose Only.

I have to thank a brother from this forum who explained to me how Nee was off on Authority. That was only less than 3 years ago.
Thank the LORD, because I suffered much, more than I can publicly say, over believing in a man's interpretation of things, rather then going strictly by The Book & His Spirit's aid.

I now am very more careful who I read. The LORD has altered my mind somehow to be extra cautious to never form doctrine from men - but only by The Word and The Spirit of Truth, because He said, I was personally responsible, when I stand before Him, for what I myself believed and wouldn't be able to blame an Author or speaker.

Must be Bereans and study every issue out, especially where it leads to "divisions and hurts" in and to HIS Body.

The amount of posts, as seen on some threads, bears this out incredibly. How long some threads are about "things" that "go beyond what is written" - or don't even have anything to do with "what is written", compared to our contending for the Deity of Christ and those Major Foundational Doctrines.

I've had my fill of Authors.

Each had/has their good points - but they are NOT INERRANT. NO man is inerrant. How many times should one have to say that? NO man is inerrant.

When they divide the body, and churches follow [i]'their'[/i] teachings - isn't that red flags enough?

I, as many many others are, am a wounded warrior from the teachings of men and the access and arrogance of some men's self-righteous use of authority and wonder - do we see that following men is what is wrong with how "Christianity" presents itself to this unsaved world???

My heart is breaking, as is the hearts of many other Saints - of how far we've strayed from His Pure Word because of THE TEACHINGS OF MEN.

The divisions amongst us IS because of our favorite teachers.

As I said earlier - some of Nee's teachings were the same as Sparks and I'm stil glad I read 30 of his books - but not all that he said was Scriptural and not just with the Authority issue.


Over a computer - we judge each other so severely over small things or things we "think" we discern about others, but we let Major Doctrines be attacked and go by without any jealousy for Him nor His Word.

Has the Church gone nuts besides this whole crazy world?

We can't see the need for "Unity In the ESSENTIALS" - Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.


I'm tired of seeing people getting hurt for defending His Word and the heretics coddled, so forgive the spirit's emotions. It's pandemic in this new church of the world.


[b]His Love[/b] and the Love for Truth would solve all of this and ceasing the putting of one man's teachings above another's and above HIS WORD.

Brother Clint said it right, Love covers a multitude of sin - but if we don't start Loving Him and His Word of Truth above All else - we're going down the drain.


https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=22302&forum=34

S
sermonindex

I pray no one brings up head coverings on this thread.
:-P I hope not!

I had a lot of Watchman Nee's books but never was interested in reading them except for one book that I really needed at the time, "The Normal Christian Life", which I would still recommend to any new believer starting out.

The problem with these discernment sites like watchman.org is that they nit pick on everything and everyone's wrong except them. I mean there is not a ministry on the earth that is right to them, they are like the news media, just look the wrong way and wham your in error.

M
murrcolr


InTheLight wrote:
Just some caution here;

First, I would hesitate to pass judgment on a brother based on some clip from a so-called discernment website. I believe Watchman Nee has taken a bad rap because of his association with Witness Lee, who took some of his teachings and ran in the wrong direction with them. Lets just be careful here and search these things out for ourselves.(in case you're wondering, I'm not a Watchman Nee devotee although I have been blessed by some things he wrote, especially The Normal Christian Life.)

Second, ad hominem arguments don't acomplish much and in the end, they really are just a way of avoiding the issue of whether or not what someone says concerning a topic of discussion is scriptural or not.

In Christ,

Ron

Ron I hear you...

This was the first time I have read any of his material.

I was another thread and read his teaching. It was then I discerned that he was off. That's why I posted this thread because of that discerment.

I went to the other site which confirmed my fears. Someone else on this thread is also confirming it.

Judge for yourself..........

S
sermonindex

This post is not about Nee or head coverings - but about following men.

On the 13th, when the article in question was posted, I did what I normally do and that peruse the site.

Again - this is NOT about Nee, but about Following Men above His WORD.

The man that owns that site was banned from here.

The man says, there are I think, 7 carnal doctrines that we must agree with, before we can post on his forum.

Look at this page - and at least scroll down some to the bottom.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/wsf2.htm


[b]Please[/b] see the enemy is trying to split HIS Body over the teachings of men and that they are seeing 'their' beliefs more important than fighting Blatant Heresy as One Body that loves each other more than the world loves their own.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HE_Reigns...

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/wsf2.htm

I followed that link and found this:
sermonIndex.net is a calvinist organization. It is an alliance member Gospelcom.net which is also an intensely calvinist organization. Anyway, sermonindex moderators were defending leeists (also calvinists) when I found them swarming the place and trying to marry themselves to Watchman Nee, yet they say they have advanced knowledge exceeding that of Nee's writings. No they don't, for they altered his writings and think opposite to what he believes. They have not introduced an improved thought, but rather that which is diabolically opposite in the 6 major sins of leeism. Doing my due diligence, I gave the truth of their mistaken assumptions; then I was banned so I could not view their website at all. The underlying cause for this banning in particular was because of the truth of Biblical locality, which the owner of this website could not accept; nor partial rapture, osas arminian and triparite man. The sermonindex forum promotes those such as T. Austin Sparks who, against God's will, reject Biblical locality, thus dividing the body of Christ falsely.
Wow! So he thinks that Greg, Mike, et al., are [i]calvinists[/i]?!? That website really gives me the "[i]willies[/i]."

:-P

As far as Watchman Nee, I have never been a fan of his writings. It's not that I find anything [i]wrong[/i] with all that he says; I just don't get much out of it (if that makes sense). I suppose that I feel that it deviates just a little too far into his own personal doctrinal persuasion than I care to venture. I've read through some of his material, but it just doesn't hold my interest for very long. On the other hand, I know some good people who literally "consume" his writings. They always express how "wonderfully deep" his writings can be. They seem puzzled, however, when I tell them that I don't care too much for his material.

I suppose that I would just prefer to read other things. It's nice to know that I'm not alone in this thought.

:-)

M
murrcolr


HE_Reigns wrote:
This post is not about Nee or head coverings - but about following men.

On the 13th, when the article in question was posted, I did what I normally do and that peruse the site.

That's the one posted on the Headcovering thread? I quess?.

Again - this is NOT about Nee, but about Following Men above His WORD.

Please explain I am still trying to catch up

The man that owns that site was banned from here.

The man says, there are I think, 7 carnal doctrines that we must agree with, before we can post on his forum.

Look at this page - and at least scroll down some to the bottom.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/wsf2.htm


[b]Please[/b] see the enemy is trying to split HIS Body over the teachings of men and that they are seeing 'their' beliefs more important than fighting Blatant Heresy as One Body that loves each other more than the world loves their own.

Expalin please I am not up to speed yet. I am trying to fiquire out what is going on.

P
pastorfrin

Paul was a man, do we throw out his writings because we do not agree with them?

What does Nee have to do with the teaching of the Word of God?

It all comes down to the matter of interpretation, people look to the writings of others to confirm their own beliefs, even to watchman groups.
This is in error; we look to the Holy Spirit who is the teacher, not man.

Paul’s writings as well as all authors of the Bible must be spiritually discerned, the natural man cannot receive the things of God. Stop trying to.

2 Tim. 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Scripture is God Breathed and thus must be quickened to our understanding by the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The whole issue here is headship; is it taught in the word of God?

1 Cor. 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. [28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, … he shall teach you all things,”

In His Love
pastorfrin

S
sermonindex

Oh Brother Colin, that was funny. You didn't understand me and then I had to sit here and pray because I didn't understand your question. I hope I prayed long enough.

I think Ccchhhrrriiiss/Chris understood my drift.

I think reading my two posts together maybe, combined with exploring that person's website would explain.

I can't come against Nee completely - but also can't agree with all of what he thought.
Many people have branched off (not just those who merged with Lee) into Nee Churches, as others have formed seperate denominations and groups because of some other man's teachings.

Lots of our arguments are over one teachers teachings compared to the other's.

If we could just talk Bible alone - WOW - that sure would be swell.

I love to read the messages here and listen to the sermons - but I wouldn't break the peace over Calvinism against Whatever, or any other that is not Foundational/Salvation stuff.

I hope I'm explaining this alright?

Let me know if I haven't.

Thanks Brother.

S
sermonindex


Amen Pastor Frin.

M
murrcolr

I went digging around in that web site that you posted the link to.

That guy has some strange ideas.

I was confused for a while and I posted while in confusion. That why you did understand me.

I love to read the messages here and listen to the sermons - but I wouldn't break the peace over Calvinism against Whatever, or any other that is not Foundational/Salvation stuff.

I agree with you there. Here is the only place I can listen to preaching as I don't go to a church know. I go along maybe once in 2-3 months.

When I was a young Christian others used to ask me what type of Christian I was. I would say what type there is only one type.

Oh how my bubble burst..........

Sad Christ brought me so much joy Christianity has brought me so much pain.....

S
sermonindex

Brother, I went off-line and figured that was it for the day.

I had to also go feed one of my cats, that's on a special soft diet.

I have to feed him alone in the bathroom and stay with him.

Anyhow, just now the LORD gave me such joy. I have a "number" of cats. Strays that came to my door and somehow worked their way into being the bosses around here.
Anyhow, they all piled up by the bathroom door, wanting this 'one' cats special food.

I decided that one other could have some, so as they all sat there knowing they have to 'wait' till they're granted permission to enter - I called out the one by name and he came - then much to the other's surprise - I called his name and he came. The others just sat there - probably thinking bad cat thoughts about me or their other two housemates. :-?

How like Jesus and us I thought. He calls us by name.
Amazing, if a bunch of dumb cats understand their names and their owners voice commands ......


Brother, one thing I DO believe - GOD will accomplish John 17.

All these side issues will pass and there will be One Body.

I do believe "The Body of Christ: A Reality" - how, like it or not - we're interconnected - wherever we are and however we feel about each other - and it matters very much to our Head how we love each other. And how much we want the Spirit of Truth to work in us.
I learn something every day about Him and myself and that's a Body thing. The Body helps me to see me better than me alone - sometimes.

Romans 8:28,29.

One more thought also - I feel I change a hair - everyday and we HAVE to believe that is true for every other Christian. We're all BE-ING changed.
Have that hope for one another.


Thanks Brother.

M
murrcolr

The Church is a voluntary association of free people who accept the authority of God but recognize the equality of every believer. Because God is no respecter of persons, and because we are brothers and sisters in Christ, and because we can come equally before the Throne of Grace, [b]the only valid authority and leadership we can follow is one of servant leadership[/b]

Pharaohs or Fathers? Spiritual Authority - It's Uses and Abuses
by David Ravenhill

PHARAOHS

Pharaohs have slaves, Pharaohs command, Pharaohs dominate, Pharaohs dictate, Pharaohs destroy and demean, Pharaohs remove, Pharaohs restrain, Pharaohs manipulate, Pharaohs emasculate, Pharaohs whip, Pharaohs want results, Pharaohs build great cities, Pharaohs are hardhearted, Pharaohs fear success, Pharaohs want servants, Pharaohs prey on slaves

SLAVES

Slaves die for pharaohs, Slaves work out of fear, Slaves work out of duty, Slaves remain slaves
Slaves loathe pharaohs, Slaves are discouraged, Slaves receive reproval, Slaves grow to hate & hurt, Slaves have numbers, Slaves celebrate pharaohs death, Slaves escape, Slaves sigh


FATHERS

Fathers have sons, Fathers counsel, Fathers liberate, Fathers communicate, Fathers discipline, Fathers restore, Fathers release, Fathers motivate, Fathers propagate, Fathers weep, Fathers want relationship, Fathers build great sons, Fathers are tenderhearted, Fathers foster success,
Fathers are servants, Fathers pray for sons, Fathers die for sons

SONS

Sons work out of faith, Sons work out of devotion, Sons develop into fathers, Sons love fathers
Sons are encouraged, Sons receive approval, Sons grow to heal & help, Sons have names, Sons commiserate a fathers death, Sons return, Sons sing


R
Robert_79

to He_Reigns:

You mentioned that you read Spiritual Authority and followed it, but that you came to realize that it was in error. I was a part of a group that very heavily emphasized this book. I have come to see it as something that is not entirely biblical, but don't seem to have much more insight on it than that. I feel it is very important to understand this issue, but I lack understanding. I am seeking the Lord on it, but if you have walked down this road, and could give me some insight, I would appreciate it. Thanks, brother.

P
psalm1

I believe bro Ron (post no. 3) to be accurate.

I came to the lord at the tail end of the shepherding movement.

The ones that got radical were the witness Lee followers.

I have enjoyed and been blessed by Watchman Nee over the years.


David

C
crsschk

This was the first time I have read any of his material.

I was another thread and read his teaching. It was then I discerned that he was off. That's why I posted this thread because of that discerment.

I went to the other site which confirmed my fears. Someone else on this thread is also confirming it.

Judge for yourself..........

Would echo Ron's comments once again. Don't jump to conclusions without doing due diligence. We have had more than a few conversations here on Watchman Nee and by extension Witness Lee. There is a great deal to take into consideration and an even greater deal of confusion.

Also, please do not take personal shots at other members here.

S
sermonindex

Hey Brother Robert.

To try to explain what happened ... sometimes, we want to please GOD so badly, that we buy 2000 books when we're young Christians and devour them. The last bunch of books I bought were more of the Classics about 7 yr.s ago, because the bookstore wasn't going to sell them anymore, mostly to give away, but a few I didn't have already and ordered about 10 of Richard Wurmbrand's books. Wonderful !!! Love that man.

Anyhow, when I joined here, we were discussing how I love Nee. Still do and a brother here mentioned Nee being off on the Authority issue.
As fast as he said that, and that was all he said, the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and I prayed about it.
This isn't about "in the home", because wives are to submit no matter what and also the laws of the land, except for sin in both cases - but Nee taught to submit to everyone - all the time.
Now that sounded fine to me - but taking that time away in prayer, the Lord had to ask me, "Who do you obey?"
What I had to realize is that, we are "commanded" to walk in the spirit and that would over-ride that blanket statement about obeying everyone.
Even my Pastor says that we should come to him and tell him if he's off somewhere and he's no whimp. He has quite a commanding presence and I call him Admiral because of it, but he's as humble as they come - yet when you're in his presence, you feel the Lord's presence, so that respect is there immediately, that I'm in the presence of one who knows HIS presence - without him having to ask any of us to obey or listen - you just can't help but honor this guy. That mix of holiness and love, in equal measure, is mind blowing. Only comes from being broken and you can tell when that's happened to folks. Some folks meet him and love him and others just leave, because it's Really Him inside of a human.
I find a similar "Spirit" in all the elders too, because that's just the spirit of that Church. The day I had to go before 10 or 12 of the elders to become a member in a closed room, the Spirit of the Lord fell and they're not even pentecostal like I am. There was a mutual respect but it was His Presence that filled the room. I get all messed up just remembering that night. Amazing Grace!!! Glory to GOD.
In other cases, the Lord has come on me strong, and this isn't how I was raised (quite the contrary, actually) and tell me, NO, you go to that person and tell them they're wrong. That's normally when I start shaking. I was raised brutally strict, so that does not come by nature with me to speak out like that.
Paul didn't submit to everyone and had to bow down to having to defend himself and he hated doing that.
So sometimes you are led to defend yourself verbally, as hard as it may be or against your own grain.
It all depends what the Holy Spirit directs and not a book outside of the Bible.

Don't know if I've explained it well enough, but I guess, just "walk in the spirit" would have covered it. I don't mean to be wordy.

GOD Bless you Brother.

Annie

M
murrcolr

Anyhow, when I joined here, we were discussing how I love Nee. Still do and a brother here mentioned Nee being off on the Authority issue.
As fast as he said that, and that was all he said, the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and I prayed about it.

This isn't about "in the home", because wives are to submit no matter what and also the laws of the land, except for sin in both cases - but Nee taught to submit to everyone - all the time.
Now that sounded fine to me - but taking that time away in prayer, the Lord had to ask me, "Who do you obey?"

Who do you obey you could preach a sermon to shake up all of Christianity based on that four words. That’s right we should obey the Holy Spirit and listen that does take care of what you should and should not do. But the reality of the matter can be very different.

For example; you can have a check in your spirit about something that you see going on at church, I don’t mean the things that stand out, the little things the little prod in your spirit. The Pastor then stands up at the front he explains away the situation. You then think oh that’s only me, condemnation then comes on you for thinking those things. Now as time goes on, you don’t hear the check anymore. You are getting sucked in. Something else is controlling your life and it not the Holy Spirit and this can all be happen in a church setting. The devil always seeks away in, is always looking for a chance to trap you, to say otherwise is careless. Anyone in authority must be ultra careful not abuse that position they have been given.

Yes I do and will listen to people it would be stupid not to. But I will not cut off the voice of the Holy Spirit. My wife God bless her sometimes it’s like having the Holy Spirit sitting next to you when she says something to me. That is the other trap you can fall into cutting of the voice of God in others.
It’s like what I am telling you right here can your hear God voice or not if you can’t then I am fool if you can praise God and let God get the glory.

Regarding Nee’s teaching when reading it look like it had been preached and then copied and put on paper. That can be a completely different thing from a book that is published. The words that I read are manipulative this is not how the Holy Spirit operates he tells it how it is and is up front about it. Like you said earlier “Who do you obey?”

Know I know this, God hates the manipulative control that goes on in church’s he hates it. There is a move of God coming. In this move of God, God is going to raise up a people, the people are going to stand up and do the work of the ministry. As the people begin to rise the Pastors who control people are going to try everything to put them down but God will have a people. God being God will also help the Pastor that are willing to get that help.

God will have a People of Victory.


Robert

You mentioned that you read Spiritual Authority and followed it, but that you came to realize that it was in error. I was a part of a group that very heavily emphasized this book. I have come to see it as something that is not entirely biblical, but don't seem to have much more insight on it than that. I feel it is very important to understand this issue, but I lack understanding. I am seeking the Lord on it, but if you have walked down this road, and could give me some insight, I would appreciate it. Thanks, brother.

You have to listen to the Holy Spirit. When Jesus was on earth he came as a man. As men on this earth we can and should be doing everything Jesus did and even greater works. Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit he did only the things he saw his Father doing. If we are not doing the greater works you then have to ask the question what is wrong. When you get that answer we have to deal with it.

What was said earlier “Who do you obey” we should humble ourselves before God and listen for his voice. We must be led by the Spirit this must be developed in you, but he will not come in take control like a devil would. He has to be invited, it takes humbling in your part and a trusting in him.

I
InTheLight

I believe that spiritual authority is a topic of great importance today in the church, especially with the negative influence of a society that is laregly seeking to cast off and question all authority in every area of life.

Many Christians have been hurt by church authority that abused their position. The danger for those who have been so hurt is to then be reluctant to submit to proper authority in the future.

Carter Conlon preached an outstanding sermon on the subject a few years back, Greg has posted it here on SI, please give it a listen...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3603]Spiritual Authority by Carter Conlon[/url]

In Christ,

Ron

G
ginnyrose

murrcolr,

I think I have read this entire thread and I am confused! What do you mean by "Watchman Nee and Confucianism?" Confucianism sounds like it would mean someone who embraces the philosophy of Confucius but this thread never mentioned him.

Must be dense..:-o

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

Ginnyrose, that came from https://www.watchman.org/cults/onemasterchrist.htm

I'm all for good apologetic sites. Many of us were saved from these big deceptions out there by them, but I'm not thoroughly acquainted with this one site.

The Homepage looks alright. I think everyone's view on how much authority positions in the Church have over one another is another hot topic.

I haven't read this article in detail, but it's up for grabs on each man's opinion - again.

I know that site deals with folks coming out of spiritual abuse and much of what I saw was true.

Our Church is under the Presbyterian form - and that's been fine with me because we have wonderful and very many elders and deacons, but I told them in the class I had to attend, in order to be accepted for membership that I wondered about their power to get rid of the Pastor. But again, thank God all the Elders and Deacons are Godly yet meek men.

Before that, like PastorFrin was, we were in a Congregational form of government.
That has it's downside also.
Took months for them to come on a majority vote whether the new sanctuary should have chairs or pews. Drove us out of our minds.

I need to really read this article when I'm feeling more perky. I know there's been so much heavy handedness in churches, that we do need to find a balance somehow.

There are some foolish sites out there, that I've spoke against in the past, but I don't believe this site is a bad one.


Aw well, anyways - Love & Peace!

M
murrcolr

Sorry Ginny for any confusion caused to you.

I removed the link earlier because I thought I had placed a bad link on this thread.

If you read the posts you will see there are some posts that I was a bit confused. Turns out the link on "let's cover head covering thread" was bad as it leads to someone's web site who is banned from here.

I have replaced the Watchman Nee artcle on the first post and He-reigns has also placed the link as well.

How is the preparation of the tomato plants going.

C
crsschk

murrcolr,

Bear with me as I make some mentions about a few matters, I am not questioning yours or anyones motives here.

The "Edit" function is not to be used in this fashion. Earlier, you had made some ill advised comments towards a member and after they were noted you removed them completely. Now you have filled in the section with completely different content. Do not do this, it makes matters more confusing for everyone;


[b][u]What is not tolerated[/u][/b]

Slander. Ill-will. Unnecessary accusations, comments.

The issue is one of order rather than control. We allow as much patience as possible for corrections and apologies. [i]Please make your corrections with a follow up reply, rather than by use of the [b]edit[/b] function. There has been a misuse of this in the past where whole sections have been removed from an ongoing thread, making it now disconnected, like removing pages from a book. Please use the [b]edit[/b] function for spelling corrections and if needed within the body of a post, please add a footnote to that which has been changed and why.[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14144&forum=13&post_id=&refresh=Go]MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules[/url]

To the matter at hand. There is something inherently wrong, and it is expressed often enough in statements like;

This was the first time I have read any of his material.

Or

I haven't read this article in detail ...

And yet an opinion is forwarded anyway often without any real investigation. Am putting this very much in general because it is such a recurring attribute in many other postings.

We should not be so ready to present things as factual if we haven't given at least a decent effort to read through and explore whether or not things are indeed so. The title of this thread alone is taken from a snippet of a four year old article and is taken on gratis to be a truthful statement. It is very easy to do a quick Google search and grab one item and make it stand on all fours. As an example, this article would be stressing the opposite of the one brought forth earlier;

[url=http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_watchman_nee.html]About Watchman Nee (1903 - 1972)[/url]

So who is right and who is wrong? What I am driving at is that we need to be far more careful in how we present matters here and not jump to conclusions without due diligence.

As was mentioned earlier there is a great deal, a great deal of muddiness and confusion surrounding Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. This site has experienced in the past a whole uproar over the matter, a search would bear this out, again anyone reading this, please, please search the site, there is so much content now after five years that a certain redundancy can be present. That is not to thwart new discussions in the least, only that there often is a body of resources already available and just as often many things are covered that could shed light on the issue.

To take this a bit further ... One of the great problems and confusions is on the body of work of Watchman Nee itself. There are two different translations of his collected works and a dispute over those themselves. Two different publishers and if anything a greater issue is upon the teachings and troubles with Witness Lee. Because of this a great caution is needed in taking things on short clippings and turning them back out as factual. That certainly goes beyond this posting, we need to be better researchers and careful how we present things.

Lastly, it did once again occur to me the lengths that have been gone to in the past over all this, major lawsuits and accusations stemming from one side ... Below is a link to at least a more direct source of material, again not forgetting about the dual translations, read it with these things in mind;

[url=http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%23%26%2E%27X%0A]Authority and Submission[/url]

Do take note of the disclaimers at the bottom. They are very adamant about not reproducing the material and even capture your IP address to make sure you aware of it. Do not copy any of this material back here.

S
sermonindex

Regarding Watchman Nee.

Nee was imprisoned for many years and died in prison for his faith in Jesus Christ. His final words scribbled on a piece of paper (after years of unsuccessful brain washings) he said, "I still believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God".

It's too bad to see this martyr be put on trial here in this thread. I wish I had his faith and endurance.

We're just talkers. Nee was a doer. The end of his life speaks volumes to me, more than all the books that he has written.


S
sermonindex

Many of us have been discussing "speaking the truth in love" and we're all being tested on that mostly of late - which I see as His answering our prayers for Revival.

This subject was not one to tear up a man. A man that I've loved for 32 yr.s and have stated, have most all of his books - but all of our Saints now in Heaven were not inerrant - and at one time or another - someone will point out where one of them wasn't.

Nee is not been anymore looked at then the many other Authors on this site.
Even my favorite man, Richard Wurmbrand wrote a few things that people realize that they are just different views then most.

There are many Martyrs, who's writings we cherish forever, yet we're adult enough to say where one or two of what they taught may have not been innerant.

I know from "Where" they are Now - they don't mind this Berean type look at their work at all - in fact - they're probably smiling if we act as the Bereans at all in our lifetimes.


LORD Bless all Saints, both in Heaven and those on Earth with Spirit and Truth and His Love.

M
murrcolr

Last Post on here

I only want to mention one more thing on Watchman Nee and that's me finished.

Where Nee got his understanding of the church from is John Nelson Darby other Brethren teachers

Where Nee got his understanding of Bible exposition and many other truths, John Nelson Darby other Brethren teachers

Now coming from the North East of Scotland this makes me shake in my shoes.

In the town I grew up in there where at least 5 Open and Closed Brethren Church's if you included the surrounding villages I could count 9 Brethren Church's.

[b]I know what the Brethern Churchs are about. I grew up with it.[/b]

I knew after reading only some of Nee's teaching he was wrong. That is why I did not need to finishing reading it.


Some of my Quotes

I went to the site where to read up on it. Nee in his teaching get calls God's judgement, God's Government. I discern the words he used where very controling to manipulate the reader.

This was the first time I have read any of his material.

I was another thread and read his teaching. It was then I discerned that he was off. That's why I posted this thread because of that discerment.

Some other peoples on here.


However, there were other books of his that were also published, that I never managed to read. Part of the reason for this was that certain groups that were into "heavy shepherding" (in the 1970's I think) were all for some of these books, especially ones that spoke of "governmental" issues in the Church.

I have to thank a brother from this forum who explained to me how Nee was off on Authority. That was only less than 3 years ago.
Thank the LORD, because I suffered much, more than I can publicly say, over believing in a man's interpretation of things, rather then going strictly by The Book & His Spirit's aid.

G
ginnyrose

murrcolr,

I am now challenging your declaration to not post more on this thread. Again, I am ignorant: How did these Brethren Churches in Scotland offend you? Reckon, I know little about them although I have read articles written by their leaders which appeared to be on the level.

Now, about my tomatoes. They are growing - are likely 13-15 feet long - are pruned to a single stem with all lateral branches cut off. If you are a researcher, try developing a tomato plant that can grow without producing any lateral branching, OK? There is one other requirement: the fruit has to have an excellent flavor. Anything less would not work. Yes, we are harvesting fruit twice a week on a schedule. And if we sell out and someone comes along and insists, we will go find a few more...Actually, I consider our business a ministry because of the volume of people we meet. Since it is located along a major highway, we get a lot of tourist traffic and others simply passing thorugh. Had some very edifying conversations with people. Loved it!

Blessings,

ginnyrose

M
murrcolr

My response sorry as its long.

Spiritual Abuse

Spiritual abuse is the misuse of a position of power, leadership, or influence to further the selfish interests of someone other than the individual who needs help. Sometimes abuse arises out of a doctrinal position. At other times it occurs because of legitimate personal needs of a leader that are being met by illegitimate means. Spiritually abusive religious systems are sometimes described as legalistic, mind controlling, religiously addictive, and authoritarian.

#1) Authoritarian
The most distinctive characteristic of a spiritually abusive religious system, or leader, is the over-emphasis on authority. Because a group claims to have been established by God Himself the leaders in this system claim the right to command their followers.

This authority supposedly comes from the position they occupy. In Matthew 23:1-2 Jesus said the Scribes and Pharisees "sit in Moses' seat," a position of spiritual authority. Many names are used but in the abusive system this is a position of power, not moral authority. The assumption is that God operates among His people through a hierarchy, or "chain of command." In this abusive system unconditional submission is often called a "covering," or "umbrella of protection" which will provide some spiritual blessing to those who fully submit. Followers may be told that God will bless their submission even if the leadship is wrong. It is not their place to judge or correct the leadership - God will see to that.

#2) Image Conscious
The abusive religious system is scrupulous to maintain an image of righteousness. The organization's history is often misrepresented in the effort to demonstrate the organization's special relationship to God. The mistaken judgements and character flaws of its leaders are denied or covered up in order to validate their authority. Impossibly high legalistic standards of thought and behavior may be imposed on the members. Their failure to live up to these standards is a constant reminder of the follower's inferiority to his leaders, and the necessity of submission to them. Abusive religion is, at heart, legalism.

Abusive religion is also paranoid. Because the truth about the abusive religious system would be quickly rejected if recognized, outsiders are shown only a positive image of the group. This is rationalized by assuming that the religion would not be understood by "worldly" people; therefore they have no right to know. This attitude leads to members being secretive about some doctrines and the inner policies and proceedures of the group. Leaders, especially, will keep secrets from their members. This secrecy is rooted in a basic distrust of others because the belief system is false and can not stand scrutiny

#3) Suppresses Criticism
Because the religious system is not based on the truth [b]it cannot allow questions, dissent, or open discussions about issues. The person who dissents becomes the problem rather than the issue he raised.[/b] The truth about any issue is settled and handed down from the top of the hierarchy. Questioning anything is considered a challenge to authority. Thinking for oneself is suppressed by pointing out that it leads to doubts. This is portrayed as unbelief in God and His anointed leaders. Thus the follower controls his own thoughts by fear of doubting God.

#4) Perfectionistic
A most natural assumption is that a person does not get something for nothing. Apart from the express declarations of salvation by grace through faith God has given in the scriptures, it would be natural to think that one must earn salvation, or at least work to keep it. Thus, in abusive religions all blessings come through performance of spiritual requirements. Failure is strongly condemned so there is only one alternative, perfection. So long as he thinks he is succeeding in his observation of the rules, the follower typically exhibits pride, elitism, and arrogance. However, when reality and failure eventually set in, the result is the person experiences spiritual burnout, or even shipwreck of his faith. Those who fail in their efforts are labeled as apostates, weak, or some other such term so that they can be discarded by the system

#5) Unbalanced
Abusive religions must distinguish themselves from all other religions so they can claim to be distinctive and therefore special to God. This is usually done by majoring on minor issues such as head covering, carrying biblical law to extremes, or using strange methods of biblical interpretation. The imbalanced spiritual hobby-horse thus produced represents unique knowledge or practices which seem to validate the group's claim to special status with God.

EFFECTS OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE

Spiritual abuse has a devastating effect on people. A very high level of trust is often placed in spiritual leaders. It is, and ought to be, expected that the trust will be honored and guarded. [b]When such trust is violated the wound is very deep. [/b]Sometimes the wound is so deep that the wounded person cannot trust even a legitimate spiritual authority again.
An similar situation exists with the victims of incest. [b]The emotional and psychological symptoms exhibited by victims of incest parallel those of spiritual abuse to a remarkable degree.[/] The main symptom is the inability to relate normally to people who represent the source of their emotional injury.

[b]Besides an unhealthy fear of, and disillusionment with, spiritual authorities, the spiritually abused person may find it difficult to trust even God. [/b]"How could (or why did) He let this happen to me?" Anger is also deeply felt. Anger itself is not always wrong - God Himself expresses anger at such spiritual abuse (see Biblical Response, Below). However, even legitimate anger, if not properly channeled and dealt with, can degenerate into bitterness and cynicism toward everything spiritual.

BIBLICAL RESPONSE

Examples of spiritual abuse are found throughout the Bible. God describes and condemns the "shepherds of Israel" who feed themselves rather than the flock, who do not heal those who are hurting, or seek to bring back those who were driven away but rather discard them, ruling with force and cruelty (Ezekiel 34:1-10). Jesus reacted with anger against the thievery of the money changers in the Temple as they misused God's people for selfish reasons (Matthew 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-18; Luke 19:45-47; John 2:13-16). He was angry at those more concerned with rules and regulations than with human suffering (Mark 3:1-5). In Matthew 23, Jesus describes the abusive spiritual leader in great detail. In John 9 the Pharisees "cast out" the man born blind simply because the truth he told about his healing exposed their own corruption. In Acts 7:51-56, Stephen called the Jewish leaders to account over their spiritual abuse. His testimony of Christ vindicated Jesus, whom they had abused, and condemned them. The legalistic Jews were so angry they stoned Stephen to death. In Galatians Paul addressed a performance based Christianity which leads to the abuse of legalism. There are many more such examples.
As God in human flesh, [b]Jesus had legitimate spiritual authority. But He did not exercise it to gain power for Himself, or to abuse and control others with rules and regulations.[/b] He said, "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11:28). The Greek word for "heavy laden" is phortizo which means here "to overburden with ceremony (or spiritual anxiety)" (Strong's Concordance #5412). Jesus gave a balanced perspective on positional authority when he said, [b]"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (Matthew 23:8).[/b] He gave another key to discernment when He taught, "He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory..." (John 7:18a).

Jesus was not "image conscious." He was willing to associate with wine drinkers, cheating tax collectors and even prostitutes. He accused the legalistic Pharisees of "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:9) and likened their showy, hypocritical outward rightousness to "whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness" (Matthew 23:27).

Neither was He paranoid. His ministry was conspicuously open to the public. When He was on trial (John 18) He was asked about His teachings and His reply was, "Why askest thou me?" Jesus pointed out that He always taught in public, and never in secret, so why not ask His disciples. He had nothing to hide.

[b]Jesus did not fear to criticize the religious leaders or their faulty doctrines (e.g. Matthew 15:1-9; 23:1-39, etc.).[/b] And when confronted with criticism or with treacherous questions designed to discredit Him, His response was never to simply demand silence or only positive recognition from His accusers. Rather, He gave answers - scriptural and reasonable answers - to their objections (e.g. Luke 7:36-47; Matthew 19:3-9).

[b]Jesus upheld the high standard of the Law, yet He clearly placed the legitimate needs of people before any rules or regulations (Matthew 12:1-13; Mark 2:23-3:5).[/b] The scriptures make it clear that no one will cease to sin in this life (Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). Jesus made it plain, however, that one can know in this life that one has eternal life (John 5:24; 6:37-40), a theme developed by Paul throughout his epistles, and by John (1 John 5:10-13).

The Pharisees, quintessential spiritually abusive leaders, were quite unbalanced in their perception of what mattered most to God. Jesus said they, "...pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, - judgment, mercy, and faith...." (Matthew 23:23).

C
crsschk

Hello brother,

Just wanted to make a couple of notes. This here that you posted, is it your own writing or someone else? If it is the latter please quote your source.

Also, wanted to say that I do stand somewhat corrected. There are aspects that may tie this back more than I knew, even if I found the title of this post a bit troubling, it seemed to infer much more than it could deliver. Came across something that actually may put both of us into the same considerations. It is a very fair treatment of Watchman Nee, it states some of your concerns and perhaps also mine own, which are that we don't paint everything with such a broad brush. There is even a couple of mentions in there about his own detaching from the exclusive Brethren. There is a great deal to take into consideration, the times that were upon them, the nature of the political surroundings, their culture and so forth.


[url=http://housechurch.org/miscellaneous/mccallum_nee.html]Watchman Nee and the House Church Movement in China[/url]

Do not want to go sliding past this issue and matter of Spiritual Authority or Spiritual Abuse in any manner. You are absolutely correct to address it and well understand your umbrage, it is my own as well. Manipulation is a diabolical thing, it makes my skin crawl and the insides heave. Because of the abuse of these matters it also makes it just as difficult to forward a right understanding as something of a backlash against just plain order sometimes where a rebellion in it's own right rises up in accusation of everything from legalism to 'thought control' and beyond.

Jesus had legitimate spiritual authority

There are two messages that have been mentioned here over the years that I have found to be just the greatest understanding of what Spiritual Authority is. They are from Stephen Kaung and yes, he had his affiliations with Watchman Nee but he uses scripture adeptly to make sense of it all. The essence that comes ready to my recognition in recalling them is that this is ultimately the last thing anyone would want to be pinning after, in fact if one was it already disqualifies. I also recall that in the truest sense it is something that bypasses the man if I could put it that way, that it's authenticated on it's own merits, in other words, partially, it is the equivalent of our often saying that we have done nothing, said nothing, that it is the Holy Spirit speaking through us, along that order. I would go so far as to say that there are those here that 'have' a Spiritual Authority even unaware, but really what it boils down to is it's opposite; That Spiritual Authority has you rather than the other way around. Rough recollections, but very good messages.

Here is an older posting along with the accompanying links.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6072&forum=35]What isn't "Speaking against God's annointed"[/url]

S
sermonindex

I don't know Murrclr from Adam, 'met' him last week on here - but I appreciate what he posted also. And not towards Nee, in and of himself - I've made clear what good I gleaned from him - but what had/has happened to me in my lifelong desire to "please everyone" ..... this quote hit my heart like a sword .....

[b]"Besides an unhealthy fear of, and disillusionment with, spiritual authorities, the spiritually abused person may find it difficult to trust even God." [/b]

Thanks guys.

S
sermonindex

Mike wrote:

wanted to say that I do stand somewhat corrected. There are aspects that may tie this back more than I knew, even if I found the title of this post a bit troubling, it seemed to infer much more than it could deliver. Came across something that actually may put both of us into the same considerations. It is a very fair treatment of Watchman Nee, it states some of your concerns and perhaps also mine own, which are that we don't paint everything with such a broad brush. There is even a couple of mentions in there about his own detaching from the exclusive Brethren. There is a great deal to take into consideration, the times that were upon them, the nature of the political surroundings, their culture and so forth.

Watchman Nee and the House Church Movement in China

Thanks Mike, have read the first part of this article so far, and it does seem pretty balanced.

Maybe none of us fully realise just how much our own culture and background (religious or otherwise) contribute to our views as Christians.

Watchman Nee wasn't perfect. It would have been strange if he hadn't absorbed, and maybe carried over into his Christian life, some of the ancestor-reverence and strongly authoritarian culture from which he came.

Blessings

Jeannette

S
sermonindex


HE_Reigns wrote:
I don't know Murrclr from Adam, 'met' him last week on here - but I appreciate what he posted also. And not towards Nee, in and of himself - I've made clear what good I gleaned from him - but what had/has happened to me in my lifelong desire to "please everyone" ..... this quote hit my heart like a sword .....

[b]"Besides an unhealthy fear of, and disillusionment with, spiritual authorities, the spiritually abused person may find it difficult to trust even God." [/b]

Thanks guys.

Our personal experiences have a huge effect on who we are, and can mar our relationship with the Lord.

Many for example project the characteristics of their own fathers onto God.

My father loved me, and wouldn't have dreamed of abusing, or even being unkind to me, (at least there's that to be thankful for, not too many can even say that). However, he was quite neurotic and an extreme perfectionist, and was for ever correcting me on the slightest details. And because I loved him and wanted to please him I was for ever striving not to disappoint him.

So I grew up with that sort of "driven" view of God. Yes, He loved me, but He demanded perfection, and wouldn't be really pleased or approve of me unless I became perfect.

It took nearly 40 years of being a Christian to begin to be free of the effect of this, and to [i]really[/i] believe and accept that the Lord loves me unconditionally.

And from the little I know of the experiences of a few sisters here on SI (and no doubt brothers) this experience and resulting hang-ups are next to nothing by comparison!

Isn't the Lord wonderful - He [i]does[/i] save to the uttermost when we let Him really heal and remake us from the inside out!

Blessings

Jeannette

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