due to scripture i now feel baptism is needed

please dont take this as me trying to convert people to a different doctrine. im so confused and for a whole week have been so stressed and lost. its hard to sleep when im not sure anymore if i will go to hell or not. but no christian can even give me much scripture on baptism not being needed for salvation and please im begging for help now. something tells me we dont need baptism for salvation but scripture seems to prove otherwise very much so.
well i have organized my thoughts and i hope that someone can give a good arguement that baptism is not needed for salvation, but i will put down what these people believe and why they believe the scriptures. but please dont post anything if you want to give an opinion that is not fully supported by scripture. so here i go...

i argued about the theif on the cross with these people to show how he did not get baptized but they gave me a good answer based on scripture. it fits right in because they said that while jesus lived on earth, theres no way they were to follow the new testament. baptism according to passages such as romans, says you die, are buried and are resurected with christ. well the theif couldnt die resurect nor be buried with christ. everyone who got saved such as the theif on the cross and others, it was because jesus had the authorit to forgive sins and no way could baptism mean what it means in the new testments...well atleast after the gospels.
now you might say thats not true because people were always baptizing, however, it was no required to save, and i will show scripture that says it is required to save from the bible. circumsicion however was thought to save people though but it was symbolic. no where does paul say its symbolic in his scripture he only says circumcision was.

now what about when jesus says those that believe and are baptized will be saved. sure he says but if you dont believe your condemned and we wonder well ok but it doesnt include baptism. well neither parts include repent. i guess we dont even have to repent. no because if we believe jesus then we know that he required repentance which is part of our belief in him, which also means that he commanded to be baptized also. so if you argue that he says nothing about baptism for condemnation then you have to realize he says nothing about repentance and i guess we dont need to repent cus we will be saved just by believing.

now what about when jesus says unless you are born of water and spirit. why cant water mean water? i heard that water means spirit or holy spirit i forgot which one but that makes no sense...is jesus saying unless you are born of spirit and spirit? did he mess up in his speech? that makes no sense. however baptism throughout the bible is used with words such as a new birth and other words to show rebirth, hench born again of water.

now heres one that gets me. what about in 1peter when it says that the water from noahs ark symbolizes baptism...its strange how water is tied with baptism in that passage but ok lets still go ahead and say it is a spirit baptism not anything to do with water baptism. well why does he then go on to say it saves you, not the removal of dirt from the body. ok now if hes talking about the spirit, then of course we know the spirit doesnt take dirt off your body. in fact he had no reason to say this because we wouldnt even of thought about that. lets take for example, if he said, " and this bannana saves you, not the removal of dirt from the body...ok now why would we even need to hear that a bannana doesnt remove dirt from your body, this wouldnt even cross our minds. so lets see what evidence we have pointing to water baptism. for some reason paul talks about water from noah, and then he includes that this baptism doesnt remove dirt from your body. now if paul was talking about water baptism then we could see how people might say, "hey i guess we are saved because we also need to be cleansed from your filth on our bodies." but paul lets them know that its a cleansing that means more than cleaning your body on the outside.

now some people might say well what about when cornelious in acts got the holy spirit and in the beginning of acts when the holy spirit came down on the people. but think about this. these were the only occasions that there was no baptism. lets look at cornelious. he was already looked at by god because he had been god fearing and doing great works. but he just had never heard of jesus yet because jesus never left jerusalem....if im wrong there then sorry, but i do know for sure that these people hadnt heard of jesus or what had happened, this is why the apostles would travel the world to preach what had happened. anyways, since he didnt know about jesus, he would never know about baptism and therfor not be baptized the way jesus commanded. and peter couldnt understand what his dream meant yet. now remember jews were thought to be so unclean in gods eyes to even associate with gentiles and such people. this means that peter would still have the belief from being a jew that gentiles were still not favored in gods eyes and this also means he would never baptize a gentile. but think about it. this was the only other time besides acts chapter 2 that the holy spirit came upon him before baptism. but at the same time it didnt say he recieved the spirit, it says it came upon..but this was also the ONLY time one did not get baptized. so the only time one did not get baptized was also the time when peter now knew it was ok to baptize gentiles.

for my last argument, some point out scriptures in acts such as with the guard saying sirs what must i do to be saved. well they say believe in the lord jesus. now sure they didnt include baptism, but they also did not include repenance. again just as jesus says those that dont believe are condemn and doesnt include baptism, they also say believe in the lord jesus but do not say repent. meaning if they did not tell the man to repent nor be baptized yet baptises him later could only mean that to believe in jesus means to also believe what he commanded which includes repentance and baptism. this could also show how he must of explained baptism and repentance to them as for why they so quickly got baptized after going to the river. this could also explain why they even went to a river. i know they went for wounds, but im just saying i can see some connections there, because like i said they said nothing about repentance. so please prove to me with scripture against scripture why we dont need baptism. im very torn between the two but more on we need baptism.

Brother,

If it is on your heart to get baptized and the Lord is leading you to this, GET BAPTIZED!

The problem never lies with baptism, which is scriptual, it is what people do AFTER being baptized that many worry about.

Some may and will disagree, but being baptized in no way means you will go to heaven. If it was, most everyone would get baptized and only baptized. Make sure that before you get baptized that you are willing to loose everything, everyone and even your own life for Jesus. If you are not prepared to loose your life for the sake of Christ...

[u][b]Mark 8:35-37 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

"For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?"

[u][b]Galatians 5:1-3 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law."

Find freedom in Christ brother.

Repent and believe.

That’s it.

By faith alone you are saved.

Anything else adds the work of man.

Get baptized to show others your heart and openly declare your love for God.

This should be a desire.

If you get baptized in order to save yourself…then…you add your works…and it shows you do not have faith in Christ alone...that He did not do enough...and you need to help finish or complete your salvation.

Repent and believe in Christ and his work on the cross.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Luckyd,

[i]Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.[/i]

Mat 3:13 -15

Dear Brother, did you absorb any of the other mentions given you in the other posting you put up? You do not need an argument nor an explanation nor to tie yourself into knotts over this. The Lord gave you an example Himself even though he had no necessity of a Baptism that we have.

Go and do likewise.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This is the only baptism that is salvations completeness.

Let us fulfill all righteousness? In this is water baptism given for the sake of the completeness of baptism that has occurred in us by Christ and the Holy Spirit being bapized into us, not as a work but as a fulfillment of the righteousness we have received in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Then by the righteousness of Christ in us we want to be baptized in water, not for the cleansing of the flesh but in Love for the Savior, which fulfills all righteousness in Him. We have a new nature and that nature now wants to please Him. In pleasing Him I want to share His righteousness with the world, and be baptized in water that all might see my obedience and love is now for Him.

Baptism is of much importance, but not unto salvation, only unto obedience and Love in wanting to be associated with Him in fulfilling righteousness by following Him and His example.

Only the Christ in you is pleasing to God. He is our righteousness before God, not our water baptism.

In Christ: Phillip

Without water baptism it is impossible to please God.

where is that in scripture??

Relax, it was a joke.

anyways, have a good one. ;-)
phil

KrispyKrittr wrote:
You've asked for a lot of advice... have you ignored it?

Baptism is a work. You are saved by grace thru faith. [b]Faith is NOT a work[/b] (contrary to what Calvinists believe).

Scripture is very clear about this.

You're thinking too hard.

Krispy

1 Thess 1:13 Remembering without ceasing your [b]WORK of faith[/b], and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thess 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and [b]the WORK OF FAITH[/b] with power:

Faith and works MUST go together. A man is justified by works-and works is what makes faith complete.

James 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee [b]my faith BY my WORKS[/b]

James 2:22Seest thou how [b]faith WROUGHT with his works[/b], and[b] BY WORKS was faith made PERFECT[/b]?

This is one thing that the Bible is clear on:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that [b]BY WORKS a man IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT By FAITH ONLY[/b].

The Bible is clear that we not saved by faith ALONE:
James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? [b]can faith save him[/b]

The implication that James is giving is clearly that faith (alone) cannot save him.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Blazed, your exegesis is bad, and your conclusions are wrong. Proof texting out of context is never a good idea.

E-sword is great, but this is an example of how it can be like playing with a loaded gun.

"Faith" in James means "mental assent; an intellectual belief in the existence of God." You can see this in verses 14, 17, 19. The faith that James talks about is a faith that even the demons can have! James was the leader of the Messianic church in Jerusalem and so he uses terms in the same way the non-Messianic Jews in Jerusalem do. The Pharisees and rabbis in Jerusalem spoke of the assertion of monotheism and the mere intellectual assent to orthodox teaching as "having faith." Does this kind of faith save people? NO! And Paul would have agreed. Intellectual faith does NOT save anyone.

The kind of "faith", Paul talks about is "absolute trust; total dependence on God; being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised" (Romans 4:5,18,21). This is more than just intellectual faith! The difference between James' "faith" and Paul's use of the word is the difference between believing a parachute could save you if you jumped out of a plane (James) and actually jumping out of a plane and pulling the ripcord (Paul).

"Justified" is the other word that is being used differently. Paul is talking about being justified in God's sight (Romans 5:1). James is talking about being justified before men (James 2:18). "Don't tell me that you have faith, show me!" James says.

James gives the example of Abraham's offering of Isaac (Genesis 22). He says this action by Abraham was proof before men of Abraham's righteousness: "Was not Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (James 2:21). But James is quick to add that Abraham was made righteous before God some 30 years prior to this event: "Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness" (James 2:23; Genesis 15:6).

There is no contradiction between Paul and James when you realize that the one is talking about justification before God and one is talking about justification before men.

Krispy

The Greek word AND definition of "faith" in James chapter 2:

Faith-Pistis, conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
relating to God
the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ relating to Christ
[b]a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God[/b] the religious beliefs of Christians belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same fidelity, faithfulness
the character of one who can be relied on

[url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4102&version=kjv]Definition of Faith in Greek in James 2[/url]

What is the very first verse in James 2:1 about faith:

James 2:1 My brethren, have not [b]the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ[/b], the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

This is the "faith" that all of James 2 is speaking of.

"Pistis is used in ALL these verses in James 2:

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Also I might add: There is only: ONE FAITH, One Lord, One Baptism

The Bible is clear that this faith, is about believing in God" verse 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils do not give a mental assent, they KNOW that God is real-more so than some Christians-it even adds that they "TREMBLE" how or why would they "tremble" with only a mental assent of faith?

James is not saying that you cannot have faith without works. He is saying that if you do have the Faith of Jesus Christ your works will show forth this faith.

Everybody always uses this portion of scripture to validate their works instead of validating their Faith.

"Have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ." Faith is the distinguishing thing in the Christian Body of Christ, for it is this by which man is justified, and hence it comes to be put for the Body of Christ itself. The meaning here is, "Do not hold such views of the body of Christ, as to lead you to manifest partiality to others on account of their difference of rank or outward circumstances or works of a falseness in their faith. The faith must show forth the trueness of the works in whom Christ is, being shown in the believers walk, thus validating the Faith is the Faith of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Not that without works their is no faith.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Now with a little help from Albert Barns comentary of the Bible;

The subject of justification, showing that works are necessary in order that a man may be justified, or esteemed righteous before God, Jas 2:14-26. For a general view of the design of this part of the epistle, The object here is to show that in fact no one can be regarded as truly righteous before God who does not lead an upright life; and that if a man professes to have faith, and has not works, he cannot be justified; or that if he have real faith, it will be shown by his works. If it is not shown by works corresponding to its nature, it will be certain that there is no true religion, or that his professed faith is worth nothing. The "stand point" from which James views the subject, is not that faith is unnecessary or worthless, or that a man is not justified by faith rather than by his own works, in the sense of its being the ground of acceptance with God; or, in other words, the place where the apostle takes his position, and which is the point from which he views the subject, is not before a man is justified, to inquire in what way he may be accepted of God, but it is after the act of justification by faith, to show that if faith does not lead to good works it is no faith at all, it is, "dead," or is of no value to show forth the faith of Jesus Christ in the believer; and that in fact, therefore, the evidence of justification by faith, is to be found in good living, and that when this is not manifest, all a man's professed religion is worth nothing. In doing this, he

(a) makes the general statement, by a pointed interrogatory, that faith cannot profit, that is, cannot save a man, unless there be also works, that follow the act of justification, by the birthing of Christ in the believer.Jas 2:14.

He then;

(b) appeals, for an illustration, to the case of one who is hungry or naked, and asks what mere faith could do in his case, if it were not accompanied with proper acts of benevolence, Jas 2:15-17. He then,

(c) by a strong supposable case, says that real faith will be evinced by works, or that works are the proper evidence of its existence, Jas 2:18.
End;

Not that faith without works is "dead", but that faith never existed as shown forth by the works.

Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The Faith of Jesus Christ as Paul says many times, by the Faith that we now possess, it being imputed to us by His Life that is born again in the believer.

So truly faith without works is dead, it is truly a dead faith that never existed in the professing religeous person who has respect for,"partiality to others on account of their difference of rank or outward circumstances or works of a falseness in their faith.

In The Faith of Christ by His Works in me:

Phillip

Quote:

""The implication that James is giving is clearly that faith (alone) cannot save him.""

That is so true, it first takes Grace.

Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi everybody,

Please allow me to contribute to this.

I just want to quote a few verses and Hopefully that will help you brother.

I like to go right to the fountain of knowledge.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

what is to be born of water?

whatever that means to you, you must do it, for Jesus said it Himself, unless you do it, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

======

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Here it talks about two things. One is faith and the other baptism.

Please look carefully at the text. It doesn't talk only about faith, it also mentions baptism.

++++++

The other interesting thing is here.

Acts 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Why would the Eunuch ask to be baptized?

Why didn't phillip say, it was not necessary for His salvation?

Why was Jesus baptized? did He need it?

=======

and a last verse.

1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism

=====

People like to mention the thief on the cross.

I believe that God is a God of allowances, He will judge us according to our knowledge and also according to our situation.

God is a God of mercy and not sacrifice. The thief on the cross believed in Jesus and therefore He was saved, because God is a God of merci, but let's not forgete the verses that I quoted above. if Jesus said that we must be born of water and spirit then why would we run the risk of disobeing Him.

Some say that you do not need to be baptized despite of Jesus said.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Dear brother if you are in doubt, go to scriptures and you will find what Jesus said to all of us.

unless there is a text in the bible that says clearly, you do not need baptism, then fine, otherwise, trust the bible and not opinions.

luckyd, Look at it in reverse.

Ask yourself where is it in scripture that someone was rebuked for no or improper baptism.

These people try to unsettle you to make you think you left something out.

Get away from these people.They are bad news(no pun intended)

Born again plus nothing.
This is the correct position.(as far as salvation)

now align yourself with proven ministries and draw close to them.

Quote;something tells me we dont need baptism for salvation but scripture seems to prove otherwise very much so.

Your discernment is correct,you discerned properly

When they quoted you that dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus,they essentially asked you to make a flying leap with them that water means water baptism.

Align yourself with the very best.
Not those that would unsettle you in salvation.

David

Dear brother David,

Please allow me to comment of something that you said.

quote:""""When they quoted you that dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus,they essentially asked you to make a flying leap with them that water means water baptism."""""""

Dear brother I was the one the quoted that verse, and to my understanding water means water.

Please explain to me these two verses..

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

HERE JOHN TALKS ABOUT TWO KINDS OF BAPTISMS.

WATER AND SPIRIT.

Then we have this....

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Here Jesus says again, WATER AND SPIRIT....

Now in both cases, Spirit means Spirit, right?

why water would mean anything else but Water?

Please could you explaing to me what did jesus mean when He said born of water?

Please explain yourself with scriptures, for I believe or I think is of no value to us......

thank you........

God bless you....

When I listen to someone espousing the belief that one must be baptized in order to go to Heaven I notice all the things they leave out...all the verses they don't deal with.

We must not add anything to what Jesus did on the cross for us! Abraham needed only to believe to be made righteous. It is no different for the thief or us.

The real question is do we want the truth or to be right? It is difficult to come to the place where we accept the possibility that we can be and might be already deceived...and we all must accept the possibility or we will not be able to accept correction.

Repentance is a changing your mind. It is not a seperate work or even an act. In order to believe in Jesus you have to change your mind about Him. It is not comparible to baptism which is an act, is it not? It is unreasonable to resort to that argument to defend that teaching.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

I wish I could understand and share here the depth in which Watchman Nee does in "A Living Sacrifice". No one can deny the many verses that say we must have faith in Jesus to have eternal life (for eternal life is in the Son). But this one verse gets in the way does it not? Perhaps we do not dig deep enough at times. I know I don't.

To be saved is not the same as to have eternal life. We believe and have eternal life. To be saved in this text is to be saved out of this evil world system. To be set apart...made holy. Baptism is identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord, yes? When we do that we are removing ourselves from the camp of the world and saying I'm with Jesus. Have you experienced the warfare involved in making a stand with Him against the world? Have you noticed now or in your early days of knowing Him how difficult it was to mention His name to a bunch of lost people. It took an effort, and when you did it something of great spiritual significance happened. Siding with jesus not the world.

Its like in Romans 10: "confession is made unto salvation". we believe in the heart for eternal life and identify with Him by confessing His name. I recall weeks after I met the Lord how the Holy Spirit burdened me terribly to confess His name and identify myself with Jesus to my co-workers.

We must identify with Him. "Come out from among them and I will be a Father to you" He says. We must be baptized: identified with Jesus, yes, but not to inherit eternal life. Oh, Father, help us to discuss matters with honesty and open ears to You with love and humility. There is so much here, but too little time and room. This is the missing piece of the puzzle for what baptism is meant for.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

Born of Spirit and water.

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Being born again of the Spirit of Christ and the living water of life.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

"Born of Water"

Life;

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The water of life is truly part of our new life in Christ but it is not and earthly part it is a heavenly part.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is not the water in natural birth, for it cannot enter the Kingdom of God, This water is the "Washing of water with the word", for our Spiritual birth in Christ that we might enter the Kingdom of God, knowing who God is and His Son.

In Christ: Phillip

It says we cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again of Water and the Spirit.
If this is natural birth water, how could it enter the Kingdom of God.

This Water of Birth into the Kingdom is the Word of God Himself by which He cleanses His Body the Church.

Ephesians 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

This is the mystery that Paul speaks of, he always means the birthing when he speaks of the mystery of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
This mystery being the born again experience is what Paul is speaking of.

I am not saying you are wrong. There is a difference in natural birth and spiritual birth.

1 Peter 1:21-23 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:21-23 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Yes we must be born of corruptible seed to be born again of Incorruptable. One to earthly through the water of womb birth, the other to Heavenly through the "washing of water by the Word.

How are we born again? 1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the
Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who is the Word? John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Blood is the cleansing agent of our new birth, once for all, this is our spirit exchanged from the spirit of our old father Satan, to the Spirit of our New Father in Christ Jesus His Son. The Soul is being washed by the water with the Word, which is The Holy Spirit speaking to our soul-mind and exchanging our old mind to the Mind of Christ which we now have, and renewing our minds by the washing of the water with the Word Himself.

Study these scripture and see what the Holy Spirit says to You, not Mathew Henry, or any other man.

Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thus separating natural birth water form the living water of life in Christ Jesus the Word.

Even Nicodemus did not understand.

John 3:9-12 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Birthed by the Spirit of Christ in me and washed by the "washing of water by the Word," The living Word Himself>

Washed in His Blood and His living Word:

Ephesians 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The Water of Life cleansing us and presenting us without spot or wrinkle, that we should be Holy and without blemish in Him.

Phillip

Study these scripture and see what the Holy Spirit says to You, not Mathew Henry, or any other man.

And the Holy Spirit had not the ear and heart of a Mathew Henry?

It may not be your intention brother, but this can be a dangerous proscription in the wrong hands. Certainly we have ample evidence of stand alone ministry all built around the premise of "What the Holy Spirit has said" to me or "has taught me". It's neither reliance nor avoidance of our own like and kind ...

[i]Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.[/i] Pro 11:14

This subject matter, baptism, seems unduly extrapolated and taken apart by far too many. The unending questioning of "what" it does or does not do, saved by it or not saved by it and forever made more complex when it's such a simple matter wherever it is expressed in scripture, even to the point of ...

[i]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [/i] Heb 6:1,2

... as almost an exasperation of these things.

It becomes a presentation of [i]why[/i] one ought to or must or should and almost leaves the whole simplicity of it up in the air as if it were something to be decided about rather than just simply obeyed. There ought to be a readiness, even a zeal and longing to be made separate ... from this present world, from sin, from even our own life, our own self. Rather than an abandon, it seems all the didactic reasoning just causes more and more confusion or unnecessary guilt and bondage. "In Whose name?" "If I don't, what then?" "What about ____?"

Look back to the beginning of this brothers dilemma over it all;

please dont take this as me trying to convert people to a different doctrine. im so confused and for a whole week have been so stressed and lost. its hard to sleep when im not sure anymore if i will go to hell or not. but no christian can even give me much scripture on baptism not being needed for salvation and please im begging for help now. something tells me we dont need baptism for salvation but scripture seems to prove otherwise very much so.

Hardly discharging the whole understanding of this grand expression towards whether "it" saves or not and we may be put in the unfortunate position of having to tear down whole constructs just because of the fact they have been built up. But nowhere in scripture do we find the kind of arguments often presented outside of them. Nowhere is there any instance where a convert rejected baptism and even where it was missing in the understanding it was straight away rectified. No questioning and reasonings and arguments and long drawn out explanations about it.

The uncanny thing of a first instance was how fast the Lord Himself was baptized when He began his ministry;

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. Mat 3:13-15

What more of an example could there ever be than He who needed it not to set the precedence for us. One would think that this alone would cease all arguments about it.

Maybe the issue of water is of a greater importance than we know. That is, that it can be isolated and has been so isolated as to render the whole matter categorically. Of the many sprinkled, dunked, splashed all for naught without an accompanying change of residence and new birth springing up and out of the marrow of being must be in the hundreds of thousands. It has in these instances been rendered useless. It is just not one without the other;

It says we cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again of Water and the Spirit.

Both. Always both. Recognize also that even amongst the great men of God, of old, that they may even not quite agree what the meaning is upon water in this instance. But there is certainly an understanding on the issuance of it as a normative ascription, ordinance, part and parcel of becoming a new birth Christian.

[b]Joh 3:5 -
Be born of water[/b] - By “water,” here, is evidently signified “baptism.” Thus the word is used in Eph_5:26; Tit_3:5. Baptism was practiced by the Jews in receiving a Gentile as a proselyte. It was practiced by John among the Jews; and Jesus here says that it is an ordinance of his religion, and the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit. So he said Mar_16:16, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” It is clear from these places, and from the example of the apostles Act_2:38, Act_2:41; Act_8:12-13, Act_8:36, Act_8:38; Act_9:18; Act_10:47-48; Act_16:15, Act_16:33; Act_18:8; Act_22:16; Gal_3:27, that they considered this ordinance as binding on all who professed to love the Lord Jesus. And though it cannot be said that none who are not baptized can be saved, yet Jesus meant, undoubtedly, to be understood as affirming that this was to be the regular and uniform way of entering into his church; that it was the appropriate mode of making a profession of religion; and that a man who neglected this, when the duty was made known to him, neglected a plain command of God. It is clear, also, that any other command of God might as well be neglected or violated as this, and that it is the duty of everyone not only to love the Saviour, but to make an acknowledgment of that love by being baptized, and by devoting himself thus to his service.

But, lest Nicodemus should suppose that this was all that was meant, he added that it was necessary that he should “be born of the Spirit” also. This was predicted of the Saviour, that he should “baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire,” Mat_3:11. By this is clearly intended that the heart must be changed by the agency of the Holy Spirit; that the love of sin must be abandoned; that man must repent of crime and turn to God; that he must renounce all his evil propensities, and give himself to a life of prayer and holiness, of meekness, purity, and benevolence. This great change is in the Scripture ascribed uniformly to the Holy Spirit, Tit_3:5; 1Th_1:6; Rom_5:5; 1Pe_1:22.

Albert Barnes

And from another perspective;

[b]except a man be born of water and of the Spirit:[/b] these are, מלות שנות, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended: by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see Eze_36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him; See Gill on Joh_3:1; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe_1:3, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jo_2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit_3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;

John Gill

May be shooting myself in the very foot by going on so long with this simplistic made complex matter but, just one more;

[b]Joh 3:5 -
Of water and of the Spirit[/b] - To the baptism of water a man was admitted when he became a proselyte to the Jewish religion; and, in this baptism, he promised in the most solemn manner to renounce idolatry, to take the God of Israel for his God, and to have his life conformed to the precepts of the Divine law. But the water which was used on the occasion was only an emblem of the Holy Spirit. The soul was considered as in a state of defilement, because of past sin: now, as by that water the body was washed, cleansed, and refreshed, so, by the influences of the Holy Spirit, the soul was to be purified from its defilement, and strengthened to walk in the way of truth and holiness.

When John came baptizing with water, he gave the Jews the plainest intimations that this would not suffice; that it was only typical of that baptism of the Holy Ghost, under the similitude of fire, which they must all receive from Jesus Christ: see Mat_3:11. Therefore, our Lord asserts that a man must be born of water and the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost, which, represented under the similitude of water, cleanses, refreshes, and purifies the soul. Reader, hast thou never had any other baptism than that of water? If thou hast not had any other, take Jesus Christ’s word for it, thou canst not, in thy present state, enter into the kingdom of God. I would not say to thee merely, read what it is to be born of the Spirit: but pray, O pray to God incessantly, till he give thee to feel what is implied in it! Remember, it is Jesus only who baptizes with the Holy Ghost: see Joh_1:33. He who receives not this baptism has neither right nor title to the kingdom of God; nor can he with any propriety be termed a Christian, because that which essentially distinguished the Christian dispensation from that of the Jews was, that its author baptized all his followers with the Holy Ghost.

Though baptism by water, into the Christian faith, was necessary to every Jew and Gentile that entered into the kingdom of the Messiah, it is not necessary that by water and the Spirit (in this place) we should understand two different things: it is probably only an elliptical form of speech, for the Holy Spirit under the similitude of water; as, in Mat_3:3, the Holy Ghost and fire, do not mean two things, but one, viz. the Holy Ghost under the similitude of fire - pervading every part, refining and purifying the whole.

Adam Clarke

Hi everybody,

I just want to comment on something that was said here. If I may do so....

Dear brother KrispyKritt quoted:"""Actually, many theologians simply believe that the term "born of water" means the flesh birth. When a woman goes into labor... what happens? Her water breaks. Thus, born of water."""""

If you are right, then Jesus when talking to Nicodemus would only have mentioned the born of the spirit side of the conversation, for everybody is born of woman by default.

Your logic does not make sense.......

Scriptures is very clear when it comes to what type of baptism John was performing. For Jesus Himself was baptized by Him.

I would like you to have a look at this text in the book of Luke.

Luke 7:29-30 And when all the people heard
Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

There is no mistake about the type of baptism that John was preaching, the baptism of water.

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

again, I will put the text in luke to show what it is said of those who refuse the type of baptism that was offered by John.

Luke 7:29-30 And when all the people heard
Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

God bless us all.......

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

I am not depending on Mathew Henry or any other man to reveal the Christ in me. I must depend on God to do that. If I want to use others in the Body of Christ to verify my understanding from God, Mathew Henry is a good source, but not the final answer, the answer lies with God in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 1:13-17 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

I learn from good sources and always use the resources of God to proof what is being taught.

His Word, the living Word is where we come to the final authority.

I don't believe God stopped revealing to His apostles and prophets like Paul, His truth and His understanding of who we are in Christ.

The only True Apostle and Prophet is Jesus Christ that is in us, making us all apostles and prophets and all else that is In Christ for His Body the Church and His brethren and God's son's in Him.

Our problem is in the knowing, we have the Mind of Christ, we just don't know how to make it work in our old mind that needs to be renewed continuously, for we will never reach the total of all that God is.

I listen to Paul because it has been confirmed in me that He is of God. I must feel this way and know this about all that I am under when it comes to being taught.

I don't want to be in heresies when it comes to SI I don't like divisions among us and all I will do is try to be at one with all who are here and the Body of Christ that we all come to the same mind in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:16-19 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

The Cambridge Bible says "the outward sign and inward grace of Christian baptism are here clearly given, and an unbiased mind can scarcely avoid seeing this plain fact. This becomes still clearer when we compare John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; and John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost; where the Baptist declares, 'I baptize in water,' the Messiah 'baptizeth in the Holy Spirit.' The fathers, both Greek and Latin, thus interpret the passage with singular unanimity." Men would have no difficulty in understanding this passage were it not that its terms apparently exclude "the pious unimmersed" from Christ's kingdom. But difficulties, however distressing, will justify no man in wrestling the Scriptures of God; 2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Water and Spirit are joined at; Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: also; Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 19:1-7 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve. And; Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Washing of water with the Word is where the Holy Spirit does His work as sent by Jesus. Our Teacher-Parakleet, always and in every situation speaking the Things that Jesus has given Him.

Born again of Water and the Spirit is being born again by Christ baptizing us unto the Holy Spirit, which represents the Holy Spirit baptism and The Spirit of Christ is also in us by the birth of The Father's Incorruptable Seed of Christ in us, being born again of both the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ.

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Holy Spirit seals us into Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Albeit: John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Should read by my understanding; John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (which is the Holy Spirit baptism) and of the Spirit (of Christ), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The believer being Born Again now in water baptism has a responsibility to show unto the world what has happened in him.

If a child is born, they always ask for hot water or wet towels, but the child is born first. Then the outward appearance is shown to the world cleaned by water, hence water baptism. I totally agree we should be baptized in water that the world might see what has happened spiritually. But, not for salvation, that is up to God. It is truly the will of God that we be baptized in water to show the world what great things He has done in us.

Sorry this is so long, but this is a real sticky subject.

In Christ: Phillip