The Biblical reason for the Sabbath

Dear Erick,

You said that [i]Sabbath was established for the Jews only[/i]

I have never been able to understand how Christians feel free to 'pick and choose' which commandments to obey, and, especially, the practice of embracing the promises and blessings given to Israel, without any consideration for the preceding verses which usually speak of the requirements for such a blessing.

Paul covers this in Romans when he speaks of the gentiles being grafted in to the people of God.

This poem always comes to mind when I hear these types of arguments:

[b][color=000000]’It's Jewish’
[circa mid to late 1800's]

When we present God's holy law,
And arguments from scripture draw,
Objectors say, to pick a flaw,
'It's Jewish.'

Though at the first Most High blessed
And sanctified His day of rest,
The same belief is still expressed,
'It's Jewish.'

Though with the world this rest began,
And thence through all Scriptures ran,
And Yeshua said "'twas made for man"--
'It's Jewish.'

Though not with Jewish rites,
which passed,
But with the moral law 'twas classed,
Which must exist while time shall last,
'It's Jewish.'

If from the Bible we present
The Sabbath's meaning and intent,
This answers every argument--
'It's Jewish.'

Though the disciples, Luke and Paul,
Continue still this rest to call
The 'Sabbath day', this answers all:
'It's Jewish.'

The good news teacher's plain expression,
That " Sin is of the law's transgression,"
Seems not to make the least impression--
'It's Jewish.'

They love the rest of man's invention,
But if the LORD's day we mention,
This puts an end to all contention:
'It's Jewish.'

O ye who thus GoD's day abuse,
Simply because 'twas kept by Jews,
The Savior, too, you must refuse,
He's Jewish.

The Scriptures, then, we may expect
For the same reason you'll reject;
For if you will but recollect,
They're Jewish.

Thus the apostles, too, must fall;
For Andrew, Peter, James, and Paul,
Thomas, Matthew, John, and all
Were Jewish.

So to your helpless state resign
Yourself in wretchedness to pine;
Salvation, surely you'll decline,
It's Jewish.[/b][/color]

Stephen

I would like to bring to our attention the decision (one of many) handed down by a Church Council of the 4th century, the time when doctrines and dogmas were being formulated.

Before this edit was decreed by the Church Council, Constantine had decreed (March 7, 321) Dies Solis — Day of the Sun, "Sunday" — as the Roman day of rest, in keeping with the pagan cult of Sol Invictus, the Invincible Sun Cult:

[b][i]"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed...[/i][/b]

It appears that the emperor Constantine, in his capacity as Pontifex Maximus, was only adding the day of the Sun, (the worship of which was then firmly established in the Roman Empire), to the other ferial days of the sacred calendar…
What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; amongst a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries.

About 40 yrs later, the Roman Church came up with this:

[color=660000]THE COUNCIL OF LAODICEA, canon 29, reads:
[b]CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.[/b][/color]

The first section says: [b]“CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day.[/b]

Thus man takes upon himself to [b]change 'the times and the law'[/b], in direct contradiction to the words of our Father:

Exd 20:8-10: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

God tells us to rest on his sabbath. Man tells us to work.

and the judgment was...[b]..."let them be [i]anathema[/i] from Christ"...[/b] :-o

(Anathema: Gr.: a curse, suspension).

It is very clear when the 7th day Sabbath was changed *by Man to the Sunday, but I am trying to figure out when even Sunday sabbath keeping was done away with in most of the church, in exchange for a Spiritualisation of the 4th commandment. I think that is probably a more recent development... Will dig into it!

Stephen

*edit "by Man'

It has always been my understanding that the early Church, that preached to the Gentiles, met on Sunday, the first day of the week to worship. They met on that day because it was the Day that Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead.

It was also the day that He led captivity captive [All those, that by faith believed in the "Seed of the Woman", "The Messiah", prophesized in Genesis 3:15 and throughout the Old Testament, that lived and died before the Christ's final sacrifice on the cross of Calvary] with Him when He went to heaven to place His blood on the Altar, in Heaven, to pay for all sin, from the beginning of time, to the end of time. Also, the very Sunday that Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead occured the same day that the Jews had been celebrating the feast of First Fruits since Moses delivered the Law (Lev. 23:9-14)---Christ is our First Fruits!

There are only two such references in the Bible about the early Church meeting on the First Day of the Week:

Acts 20
7. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
8. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
9. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
12. And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.

1 Cor 16:
1. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 3. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
4. And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

In conclusion, Ray Stedman had this to say about the Sabbath:

We must recognize that the weekly sabbath, i.e., Saturday, is not the real sabbath. It never was, and it is not now. It is a picture or a reminder of the real sabbath. The true sabbath is a rest; the Jewish sabbath is a shadow, a picture of that rest. All the Old Testament shadows pointed to Christ. They were predictions, foreviews, of the coming of the One who would fulfill all these remarkable things. Every lamb that was brought as an offering was a shadow of the work of Christ. Every burnt offering, every bit of incense that was offered, was a picture of the fragrance of Jesus Christ. The tabernacle was a shadow of him. The high priest, in his garments and his office, was a shadow of Christ as our High Priest. Read the book of Hebrews and you will see how beautifully all this is brought out. These Old Testament shadows were looking forward to the coming of the One who would fulfill these and thus end them. When the work of Jesus Christ was finished the shadows were no longer needed.

We behave very similarly today. Some twenty-two years ago when, as a much younger man, I was in Hawaii, I found myself engaged to a lovely girl who lived in Montana and whom I hadn't seen for three or four years. We were writing back and forth in those lonely days, and she sent me her picture. It was a beautiful picture and I showed it to all my friends dozens of times. I propped it up on the desk and I would look at it at least three or four times a day. It was all I had to remind me of her and it served moderately well for that purpose. But one wonderful day she arrived in Hawaii and I saw her face to face. I didn't spend much time with the picture after that, nor have I since. The other day I was cleaning out the garage and ran across the picture. It was still a beautiful picture, and I noted that she had not changed very remarkably since those days, but I found that the picture was quite incomplete and unsatisfying. When the real thing came there was no longer any need for the picture.

This is exactly what happened with these Old Testament shadows, including the Sabbath. When the Lord came, and his work was ended, making possible the true fulfillment of God's intention in the Sabbath, the picture was no longer needed. The weekly sabbath ended at the cross. Paul specifically says this. In the letter to the Colossians he confirms it to us. In Chapter 2, beginning with Verse 13, he says,

And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it [not him; it, the cross].

Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath!

Walter

BlazedbyGod wrote:
The fact is, there is not one scripture that says or even alludes to Jesus "being our Sabbath" in the sense of totally replacing the 7th Day Sabbath.

There is not one scripture the says the sabbath has or will ever change from the 7thday to a person. Jesus himself never made this claim or anything similiar to it-

The Bible plainly says that JESUS is:

....the Son of God
....God manifested in the flesh
....Lord & Saviour
....Christ the Messiah
....the bread of life
....the bread of heaven
....the light of the world
....the Son of Man
....the first born of every creature
....Alpha & Omega
....The First and the Last

[b]but I have never seen any verse that says that Jesus is the Sabbath in the sense of replacing the 7th Day or that He is our Sabbath now[/b]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[b]Walter writes[/b]

Christ is the fullfilment of the entire Law.

The Law, [b]including the Sabbath,[/b] was only a picture or a "shadow" of the real law and the real Sabbath.

Christ is the substance, the reality, the fullfilmet of the Law and the Sabbath.

Have you ever thought about all of the sacrifices, millions upon millions of animals, sacrifieced every day of the week (twice daily, at the 9:00 A.M. [the morning sacrifice] and 3:00 P.M. [the evening sacrifice] at the Temple for the sins of the people? Yet this was only a "picture" a "shadow" of the final sacrifice that was [b]fulfilled[/b] by Jesus Christ when He was nailed on the cross at 9:00 A.M., and who gave up the Ghost at 3:00 P.M. on the 14th day of Abib, at the celebration of the Passover, thus fulfilling all of those millions of sacrifices with himself as the final sacrifice for all of the sins of mankind:

Scripture tells us this very thing when we read:

"And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.[not him; it, the cross].
[b]Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or of the SABBATH DAYS. These are only a shadow of what is to come;[/b]

[b]but the substance belongs to Christ.[/b] (Colossians 2:13-17)

Sincerely,

Walter

Rowdy2 said: [i]Paul said it best.
KJV Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.[/i]

[u]--Can we really believe that the 'weak and beggarly elements' Paul is referring to can be:--[/u]

- the Day blessed and sanctified by the the Creator at the beginning of creation?
- the 7th day Sabbath rest given to mankind?
- the 4th commandment (written on stone, now supposed to be written on our heart)?
- the perpetual sign of the people of God?
- the Sabbath day upheld throughout scripture, and seen in the Millennial period?

No prophet, priest, disciple or teacher [i]ever[/i] spoke against the 7th day Sabbath, let alone call it a [i]'weak and beggarly element, bondage[/i]'.
That one man can overturn the overwhelming weight of scripture, declaring the LORD's Sabbath as being a 'weak and beggarly element', is grasping at nuances in order to invalidate the word of God. Paul was referring to the pagan days kept by former heathen, before they came to know God.

[u]--LOOKING AHEAD TO THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM -Would the [i]'weak and beggarly elements, the so-called bondage, the so-called ordinance against us'[/i] suddenly become something GLORIOUS again?--[/u]

There is NO indication ever given in scripture that the 7th day Sabbath would cease. We see it still [u]continuing[/u] right into the Millennial Reign of Yeshua (Isa 66:23). That we rest and have peace in Yeshua everyday, does not negate a 7th day rest and ceasing from physical labour.

The LORD speaks clearly through Isaiah, speaking of the [u]foreigners, the gentiles[/u] (and no man, even the *apostle Paul, can oppose HIM):

[color=990000]"And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD,
and to be his servants,
[u]every one who keeps the sabbath, and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant[/u] --
these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.
Thus says the Lord GOD,
who gathers the outcasts of Israel,
I will gather yet others to him
besides those already gathered."[/color]

*Peter warns us regarding Paul's writings which are 'hard to understand' and which the '[b]lawless[/b] twist to their own destruction'.

The liberal stream of those who spiritualise the Scriptures eloquently express fantastic ideas to reveal how deeply they are able to interpret the 'higher knowledge' of the 4th commandment. None of the other 9 commandments are subject to this, because to do so would obviously negate them. e.g. do not murder, or commit adultery.......we cannot abolish the first command in order to fulfill the spirit of the command, that is to not even [i]think[/i] about it.

Gnostic prophets subtly send out a message that their insights exceed that of the plain written Word of God. They appear to know some secret interpretation of scripture while desperately massaging the texts in order to extract a meaning beyond the clear written Word, exchanging the truth of God for a lie. If a few passages of scripture, taken out of context, can be used to abolish the Torah of God, it is ceaselessly and gleefully used to 'trump' all that God said before. While abolishing the commandments of God, many then claim to have a 'higher law', higher than that given by the Most High God! No. The LORD said that HE would write HIS (note HIS, not our interpretation of) commandments on our heart, and cause us to walk in HIS ways (not our ways). When that happens, all becomes very clear, and no one can take the desire to please our Father away, because it is written on our hearts! [u]If the Sabbath Day is a bondage, then there is no freedom from the law of sin and death, the law is then still on stone, because HE promised that HIS ways would be a joy, a delight and life![/u]

note: [i]'the handwriting of ordinances against us, which was contrary to us'[/i], is [b]not[/b] the perfect Torah (law, commandments, instructions of God). These ordinances are the [b]charges[/b] written against us for sinning (breaking the commandments) in the first place. This debt, this charge against us was nailed to the cross when Yeshua took our punishment in our stead. We should now stop sinning (breaking the commandments), and not trample underfoot the grace of our Lord Yeshua. [u]As Paul said, "Should we continue sinning (breaking the commandments) that grace may abound? God forbid".[/u]

Thank you
Stephen

8-)

The Biblical reason for the Sabbath was to point us to Jesus Christ.( Who is our REST)

The Biblical reason for the Law was to show us our sin...pointing us to Jesus Christ. ( Who became sin for us)

The Biblical reason for sacrifice of bulls and goats was to point us to Jesus Christ. ( Who shed His own blood for the forgiveness of sin...the LAMB OF GOD..who takes away the sin of the world.)

The Biblical reason for the Ark, and the Mercy Seat on top of the Ark was to point us to Jesus Christ. ( That we now can come boldly to the Throne of GRACE, finding individual and personal MERCY 24/7/365....not yet opened in the OT)

It just goes on and on and on!.

The Bible is about Jesus Christ...from Beginning to End!

Katy

Strider100 wrote:

......................................................................................................"No prophet, priest, disciple or teacher ever spoke against the 7th day Sabbath, let alone call it a 'weak and beggarly element, bondage'.
[b]That one man (Paul)can overturn the overwhelming weight of scripture, declaring the LORD's Sabbath as being a 'weak and beggarly element', is grasping at nuances in order to invalidate the word of God.[/b]............."
--------------------------------------------------------------------"

[b]Walter writes[/b]

I really can't believe what you have just written. In other words, you only read and study the first 4 Books of the New Testament--Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and you have discarded the remaining 23 Books in the New Testament. The reason? So that they words and the teachings of Paul, who was instructed by Jesus face to face for three years in the desert, who was responsible, through the power of the Holy Spirit, of starting the entire Gentile Church, cannot corrupt your own view of the importance of "works" and it's necessity in assuring your own salvation.

I always heard that many of the cult's held this view, but I have never actually met a person that would admit it.

I sincerely am praying for you--that God will give you a new heart, His heart, that He will open your eyes, and draw you to Him. I am praying for your salvation, and I ask for all others reading this post to join with me in agreement, as we plead the precious blood of Jesus Christ over you, and ask that you come to a saving understanding of Jesus Christ and the work that HE did on the cross for you.

As Jesus said--It is Finished! The work is over, and He is the one who did the work. We, who are beleivers in Him, must crucify ourselves daily, and die to self, to allow Him to do His Works through us.

Amen

Walter

from Walter's post: [color=0000CC]Quote:

Strider100 wrote:

......................................................................................................"No prophet, priest, disciple or teacher ever spoke against the 7th day Sabbath, let alone call it a 'weak and beggarly element, bondage'.
That one man (Paul)can overturn the overwhelming weight of scripture, declaring the LORD's Sabbath as being a 'weak and beggarly element', is grasping at nuances in order to invalidate the word of God.............."
--------------------------------------------------------------------"

Walter writes

I really can't believe what you have just written. In other words, you only read and study the first 4 Books of the New Testament--Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and you have discarded the remaining 23 Books in the New Testament. The reason? So that they words and the teachings of Paul, who was instructed by Jesus face to face for three years in the desert, who was responsible, through the power of the Holy Spirit, of starting the entire Gentile Church, cannot corrupt your own view of the importance of "works" and it's necessity in assuring your own salvation.

I always heard that many of the cult's held this view, but I have never actually met a person that would admit it.

I sincerely am praying for you--that God will give you a new heart, His heart, that He will open your eyes, and draw you to Him. I am praying for your salvation, and I ask for all others reading this post to join with me in agreement, as we plead the precious blood of Jesus Christ over you, and ask that you come to a saving understanding of Jesus Christ and the work that HE did on the cross for you.

As Jesus said--It is Finished! The work is over, and He is the one who did the work. We, who are beleivers in Him, must crucify ourselves daily, and die to self, to allow Him to do His Works through us.

Amen
Walter[/color]
____________________________________________________________

Dear Walter,

That you would firmly count yourself amongst those who declare the LORD's Sabbath Day to be a [i]weak and beggarly element[/i], is your decision.

[b]I do not[/b].

That you feel to pray for my salvation and a new heart, because I believe that the commandments of GOD are holy and a joy and delight, is also your decision. I know that I am amongst those whom Revelation 14:12 speaks of [color=990000]....'those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus'...[/color]

[u]The old straw man argument[/u] that quote: [i]"your own view of the importance of "works" and it's necessity in assuring your own salvation"[/i] becomes really tiresome when time after time, people who love the commandments of God [u]constantly assert the fact that they are NOT relying on 'works' for salvation,[/u] but on the willing sacrifice of Jesus who gave himself for us. Why do you never hear that?

Walter quote: [i]"I always heard that many of the cult's held this view, but I have never actually met a person that would admit it.[/i] Walter, that is your opinion. It is also your opinion that I apparently [i]"only read the first 4 books of the NT"[/i] Where did you get that from? Did you not read that I quote from the letters of Paul, Peter, John? Please make sure of the facts before making such sweeping judgments.

Please give us the references [u]where you feel that anyone in Scripture spoke [i]against[/i] the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, and counted it a[i]'weak and beggarly element'?[/i][/u] Please try and give more than one witness, as you are likely to use a verse from the Apostle Paul, which I have pointed out does not refer to the LORD's Sabbath Day, and would also remind you of Peter's warning that [u]there are some things that Paul has said which are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction[/u]. It would also be helpful if you could point out from the Tanach (OT) the future abolishing of the 7th day Sabbath in the Messianic age, and also confirmed from the words of Yeshua (Jesus).

It would also be helpful if you could explain why this so-called 'weak and beggarly element', this keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, is seen being practiced in the Millennial Kingdom? In which context I might add that the eating of 'swine's flesh and mice and other abominations' is condemned, as found in the Torah? (Isaiah 66)

Yes, Jesus said "It is Finished". He paid the price for our sins. Those who trust in His sacrifice should no longer continue in sin, trampling underfoot the grace of the Son of God. Yes we must crucify ourselves daily, and allow Him to do His work through us, with the sure confidence that we are living in the new Covenant, one in which the HE will write HIS laws on our hearts and minds, and CAUSE us to walk in HIS ways. (and not call HIS law 'a weak and beggarly element, a bondage' and such blasphemous notions).

Yeshua himself said: "If you would enter into life, keep the commandments".
Yehsua also said: [color=990000]'Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
[u]Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so[/u], shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I tell you, [u]unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven[/u][/color].

Contending for the faith once delivered to the saints,
Stephen

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/chr-sab/chr-sab3.htm

Here is an excellent article concerning the Sabbath.

Katy

oops...double post!

from Walter's post: [i][color=000099]Quote:

Strider100 wrote:

......................................................................................................"No prophet, priest, disciple or teacher ever spoke against the 7th day Sabbath, let alone call it a 'weak and beggarly element, bondage'.
That one man (Paul)can overturn the overwhelming weight of scripture, declaring the LORD's Sabbath as being a 'weak and beggarly element', is grasping at nuances in order to invalidate the word of God.............."
--------------------------------------------------------------------"

Walter writes

I really can't believe what you have just written. In other words, you only read and study the first 4 Books of the New Testament--Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and you have discarded the remaining 23 Books in the New Testament. The reason? So that they words and the teachings of Paul, who was instructed by Jesus face to face for three years in the desert, who was responsible, through the power of the Holy Spirit, of starting the entire Gentile Church, cannot corrupt your own view of the importance of "works" and it's necessity in assuring your own salvation.

I always heard that many of the cult's held this view, but I have never actually met a person that would admit it.

I sincerely am praying for you--that God will give you a new heart, His heart, that He will open your eyes, and draw you to Him. I am praying for your salvation, and I ask for all others reading this post to join with me in agreement, as we plead the precious blood of Jesus Christ over you, and ask that you come to a saving understanding of Jesus Christ and the work that HE did on the cross for you.

As Jesus said--It is Finished! The work is over, and He is the one who did the work. We, who are beleivers in Him, must crucify ourselves daily, and die to self, to allow Him to do His Works through us.

Amen
Walter[/color][/i]
____________________________________________________________

[color=0000CC]Dear Walter,

That you would firmly count yourself amongst those who declare the LORD's Sabbath Day to be a weak and beggarly element, is your decision.

I do not.

That you feel to pray for my salvation and a new heart, because I believe that the commandments of GOD are holy and a joy and delight, is also your decision. I know that I am amongst those whom Revelation 14:12 speaks of ....'those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus'...

The old straw man argument that quote: "your own view of the importance of "works" and it's necessity in assuring your own salvation" becomes really tiresome when time after time, people who love the commandments of God constantly assert the fact that they are NOT relying on 'works' for salvation, but on the willing sacrifice of Jesus who gave himself for us. Why do you never hear that?

Walter quote: "I always heard that many of the cult's held this view, but I have never actually met a person that would admit it. Walter, that is your opinion. It is also your opinion that I apparently "only read the first 4 books of the NT" Where did you get that from? Did you not read that I quote from the letters of Paul, Peter, James, John? Please make sure of the facts before making such sweeping judgments.

Please give us the references where you feel that anyone in Scripture spoke against the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, and counted it a'weak and beggarly element'? Please try and give more than one witness, as you are likely to use a verse from the Apostle Paul, which I have pointed out does not refer to the LORD's Sabbath Day, and would also remind you of Peter's warning that there are some things that Paul has said which are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction. It would also be helpful if you could point out from the Tanach (OT) the future abolishing of the 7th day Sabbath in the Messianic age, and also confirmed from the words of Yeshua (Jesus).

It would also be helpful if you could explain why this so-called 'weak and beggarly element', this keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, is seen being practiced in the Millennial Kingdom? In which context I might add that the eating of 'swine's flesh and mice and other abominations' is condemned, as found in the Torah? (Isaiah 66)

Yes, Jesus said "It is Finished". He paid the price for our sins. Those who trust in His sacrifice should no longer continue in sin, trampling underfoot the grace of the Son of God. Yes we must crucify ourselves daily, and allow Him to do His work through us, with the sure confidence that we are living in the new Covenant, one in which the HE will write HIS laws on our hearts and minds, and CAUSE us to walk in HIS ways. (and not call HIS law 'a weak and beggarly element, a bondage' and such blasphemous notions).

Yeshua himself said: "If you would enter into life, keep the commandments".
Yehsua also said: 'Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.[/color]
____________________________________________________________

Miccah, if you would read through the above post, you would see that I absolutely believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Way, the Truth and the Life...

We keep HIS commandments, not to[b]enter the Kingdom, but because we are in the Kingdom of God (the rulership, reign of God)[/b]

I hope that clears up any misunderstandings!
8-)

Steve

Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Kingdom of GOD is within you:

The Kingdom of Heaven is referred to as this...ON EARTH as it is in Heaven.

The kingdom of God is universal and includes angels and saints of all ages.

The kingdom of God is entered only by the new birth.

The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven “have many things in common, however many differences.”

The Kingdom of God is inward and spiritual.

The Kingdom of God merges into the kingdom of heaven when Christ puts all things under His feet when He returns to earth, setting up His Kingdom Reign called the Kingdom of Heaven....on Earth as it is in Heaven.

We are of the Kingdom of God, Heavenly, Heaven is our home...not the earth.

Jesus says of the Kingdom of Heaven that one would need to cut off his hand or pluck out his eye if it offends to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Obviously, as Born Again, our Glorified Bodies will enter the Kingdom of God, and no need for cutting off Glorified hands or Glorified Eyes, as flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of GOD.

Flesh and blood will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and that flesh and blood will be ruled with a Rod of Iron.

We, born again Christians are ruled by Christ In You, and the indwelling Holy Spirit in you.

The Kingdom of Heaven will be under Kingdom LAW much like the Law.

During the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign there will be an earthly rest upon the Earth...Isaiah 14:7.

Katy

Destinysweet,

I believe those who do understand these differences will understand the context of my last post.

When John the Baptist preached, he was preaching the Kingdom of Heaven...promised to Israel. Many were baptized with John's baptism to enter in.

However, when Jesus ministry began, John said....One who comes after me will baptize you with fire. John didn't have that power to do such a thing.

This Baptism of Jesus is our Baptism into HIS LIFE, not into the Earthly Kingdom promised to Israel.

John also said, He must increase and I must decrease.

There is an overlapping of these Kingdoms in the Gospels.

There were two comings in the OT...One of KING and one of Redeemer. The Kingdom was first announced by John, and faded as the Gospel of Jesus Christ and HIS Kingdom of which He says " Is not of this world"....the Kingdom of God.

Again to clarify more fully we come to Acts where Paul comes across many who have been Baptized with John's Baptism, and Paul asked Have you received teh Holy Spirit...they knew nothing about teh Holy Spirit and obviously nothing about Jesus who is the one who Baptized us with the Holy Spirit and into His Body...called the Church..a Heavenly Mystical union with Jesus Christ.

We have at our new birth been translated out of this present evil age and translated spiritually into the Kingdom of His Dear Son.

We are waiting for the redemption of our Bodies, being fashioned like His. We don't know what we will be but we know that we will be like Him.

When Jesus returns to earth, (WE His Body..the Church...((He's the Head.,and the Head won't return without the Body))....we will be with Him, reigning and ruling with Him during this Earthly Kingdom Reign that will pick up where John's preaching left off.

The Church age didn't cancel out those promises or the time appointed....

In Acts 1:6&7 AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, he was asked by His disciples....Will you at THIS Time restore the ****Kingdom to Israel***....and Jesus said...It is only for the Father to know. This will be the second coming of Jesus Christ to earth...also stated in Matthew 24.....only the Father knows that time.

So...we are certainly talking about two distinct Kingdoms.

Many **Kingdom Now** followers do not distinguish between these two entirely different events....following what is called Dominion Theology/Replacement Theology.

SDA. Mormons, JW's etc follow a Kingdom NOW theology. The Mormons love C.S. Lewis and have great honor and respect for his teaching...so maybe C.S. Lewis also believed in a Kingdom Now Theology as well.

The Gospel according to the Mystery...Romans 16:24-27 Paul taught never once mentions the Kingdom of Heaven.

We enter the Kingdom of His Dear Son through our identification with Him in death and resurrection Life.

**We** are instructed to seek those things above and not below.

I know only the Holy Spirit can enlighten you about these things.

Katy

Good job Katy-did!

I have one question.

When Jesus was here on the earth, would you say that both the Kingdom of heaven, and the Kingdom of God were here?

Hello DestinySweet,

I would just like to express my convergence with your concerns about the separation of kingdoms, tenses and Christ's eternal roles as they are manifested in time, which Katy and I have discussed before.

Hi Katy,

Recently I listened to 'Love with Shoes On', which is the featured sermon right now, and near the beginning Dan Champlin goes through an interestin sequence of the years in which world population reached one billion, and subsequent billions. It bears out what I've been holding on for, with regard to that final harvest some people put so much store by, in that the gaps between the years when another billion souls may be alive, get closer and closer. Finally, even a small percentage of that number will be a lot of people. We'll have to wait and see.

:-)

I haven't read the whole thread since the first few posts but despite believing Christ is our Sabbath rest spiritually, I haven't been able to get this verse out of my head, which is drawn to attention in an article I've read about the Church, and Stephen's allusion to it in the wilderness.

[color=0000FF]Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit [u]on [b]the Lord's day[/b][/u], and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, [/color]

This has reminded me that our physical bodies need rest, and I know from my working life that on the seventh day one is particularly tired, if one has not been allowed it as a day off.

Having said that, I don't think Christians can bank on routine, as was expected under the Jewish law, the only picture they had - of the spiritual - apart from manifestations of God Himself, and angels.

Now, we have Christ within us - the eternal Father and Son, through the Holy Spirit - there is a rest and a quickening far beyond natural strength, when it is needed, and 'routine' is
hard to come by.

It seems to me the Lord's day is for the Christians to gather, rather than for any natural need. It's not for me, or for my relationship with God, but for others, and their relationship with God, and as they reciprocate that concern, so also I am fed and grow.

I'm not sure whether this post should drive me out of the house to find those elusive believers with whom to bind my life in 3D, or I can still be one here, with those to whom God has joined me, and that is enough? Probably, it's not enough... and the time will come when He leads me out. Amen. Till then, I appreciate your ministry.... all of you.

:-)

Good job Katy!

I have one question.

When Jesus was on earth, would you say that both The Kingdom of heaven, and the Kingdom of God were here.

Sorry my computer is acting up. :-D

Does a person that believes that Christ comes back (as the angels told them that looked on when He ascended)the same way He left...in the clouds,personally,actually with all the saints before setting up His kingdom for the millineum reign and onward and that we,though filled with His spirit, are not going to transform this earthly government,worldly system into Christ's heavenly government before said time,considered a Kingdom Now person? Because this is what I believe.I also believe that He said more than once that we would do the same things that He did/does on earth..He's the one doing it anyway,through us..so He's still presently doing it in my estimation.

Destintsweet.

Are you asking here:

Is the Church on earth NOW bringing in the Kingdom before Jesus returns....and that is our job to do?

Yet I see in Isaiah it will be Jesus Christ Himself...not the Church without Him, who fulfills this promise.

WE do not sit in the throne of David, however the anti-christ WILL, deceiving many.

Could the anti-christ be the head of all those who believe WE are to bring in this Kingdom Now.

He will bring in a false Peace.....Jesus will bring in the real thing.

The Body can do nothing without the Head, and the Body is not in authority over the Head.

If you believe we are to bring in this Kingdom Now, how are you going to bind Satan for 1000 years, and when will that begin? Will the church also conquer death?

What is interesting about the Kingdom Now theology is how many cults and false counterfeit Mountains or Kingdoms are involved here. One thing they all have in common is the Law of Moses and are all legalistic:
RE: Catholicism
Mormonism
Islam
JW

When I saw the beginning of the Christian Coalition in embracing all of these false religions in the name of trying to establish a righteousness under the Law of Moses, (((seeing this is the ONLY thing they have in Common...it was a most enlightening moment for me.

These Kingdoms or Mountains if you please will all come together one way or another on this earth, giving it's power to one, setting anti-christ as it's head.

A Covenant of peace called a Covenant of Hell or Covenant of death will be made with Israel, deceiving the world in thinking the Body...(((WITHOUT the REAL Head, Jesus Christ))) has indeed brought in the Kingdom of Peace with the Government upon it's(((anti-christ---apostate church)) shoulders.

The woman who rides the beast is this group of apostate Christianity....The Woman...rides on the back of the Political powers of which anti-christ will be utmost political.

Then the beast...after he gets what he wants, throws off the woman(((the Kingdom Now people usurping authority in this present evil age as though they were Christ too)).....yet Revelations says this is all part of God's Plan.

When Jesus was on earth, He left Glory, emptied Himself, became obedient unto death...even death of a Cross.

Judas had a problem with Jesus....because Judas believed Jesus came then to be KING wanting Him to overthrow the Roman Government. It didn't happen!

Many today are falling into the same trap Judas did.

Only the Glorified Christ will take rule and reign taking the Throne of David.

It's the Glorified Risen Christ who will reign and rule, and WE must be at that time GLORIFIED together with Him to reign and Rule.

Isaiah 9:5-7

5For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This is Yet to Come.

This is all for now!

Love in Christ
Katy

quote from Katy-did: [i]"What is interesting about the Kingdom Now theology is how many cults and false counterfeit Mountains or Kingdoms are involved here. One thing they all have in common is the Law of Moses and are all legalistic:
RE: Catholicism
Mormonism
Islam
JW
When I saw the beginning of the Christian Coalition in embracing all of these false religions in the name of trying to establish a righteousness under the Law of Moses, (((seeing this is the ONLY thing they have in Common...it was a most enlightening moment for me.[/i]
_____________________________________________________________

It is my understanding that these groups that you have mentioned above certainly DO NOT uphold the Law given by Moses. They, along with the Constantinian Christianity, reject the Torah (laws, commandments, teachings) of GOD, and have replaced them with their own set of commandments.

Three quick comparisons:

*[u]They all reject the 7th day Sabbath[/u] - some made up a new Sabbath day, such as Sunday, Friday.

*[u]They do not celebrate the Feasts of the LORD[/u] - they have established their own 'holy days' based on ancient pagan Mystery religions

*[u]They do not uphold the clean food laws given by the LORD[/u] - many have substituted other dietery restrictions -Mormons ban alcholol, tea, coffee, while embracing eating unclean foods. - While Islam rejects some unclean food and alcohol.

~I am curious to see how you believe they uphold the Torah........
[b][u]Katy-did, could you provide some references on how these religions that you quoted have the Law of Moses in common?[/u][/b] Thanks!

______________________________________________________________

~a note on the KINGDOM~

The Kingdom (the Reign/Rulership) of God is the central theme of the teaching of Yeshua. [i]Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand"[/i].

While we await the future, glorious and all encompassing Kingdom/Reign/Rulership of God, we as individuals can have the Kingdom/Reign/Rulership of God in our hearts and lives, as we submit to HIS authority and rule, in the name of our Saviour Yeshua.

_____________________________________________________________

Blessings,
Stephen

Dominion theology is predicated upon three basic beliefs:

(a) Satan usurped man's dominion over the earth through the temptation of Adam and Eve;

(b) The Church is God's instrument to take dominion back from Satan; and

(c) Jesus cannot or will not return until the Church has taken dominion by gaining control of the earth's governmental and social institutions.

More specifically, what does Dominion Theology teach? Here are the highlights:

(a) The Old Testament (OT) Law is our rule of life for today. Although DT teaches that keeping of the Law is not a condition for salvation, it is a condition for sanctification. (However, some of the COR's official statements appear to specifically condition salvation upon OT Law-keeping!);

(b) In addition, the OT Law is to govern over society as well. Since we are called to subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28), DT teaches that God's Law should rule (or dominate) all aspects of society. This view is known as Theonomy (or God's law), and is described by Greg Bahnsen as: "The Christian is obligated to keep the whole law of God as a pattern for sanctification and that this law is to be enforced by the civil magistrate" (Theonomy, p. 34). This would mean that Christians would be obligated to keep the whole OT Law except in a case in which the New Testament (NT) explicitly cancels a command, such as the sacrificial system;

(c) A central piece of DT is its belief in covenant theology. As a result, it makes no distinction between the church and Israel (i.e., the church has become "spiritual Israel"). However, DT goes beyond traditional covenant theology and teaches that the church is to be governed by the same laws, is subject to the same curses, and is promised the same blessings as Israel;

(d) DT teaches a high level of social and political activism. If the Kingdom of God is to gradually take dominion over the earth, it only makes sense that Christians should be attempting to change society through the changing of laws and through social action;

(e) Followers of DT, like many charismatics, especially the Latter Rain Movement, look for a great end time revival in which the masses will turn to Christ. As a result, DT does not believe in the rapture of the church. According to DT, the world should be, and is becoming, a better place through the efforts of Christians (cf. 2 Thes. 2:1-12);

(f) As with many others who follow the teachings of George Ladd, DT believes that we are in the Kingdom age, but the Kingdom in another sense is yet to come. We are in the Kingdom, and have Kingdom authority, but on the other hand, we are ushering in the Kingdom through our efforts. "The Kingdom is now, but not yet," is a popular DT slogan;

(g) DT is postmillennial in its eschatology. It is believed that as a result of the reconstruction of society by Biblical principals, that the final aspect of the Kingdom of God will be established on earth. Christ cannot return until a certain amount of dominion is achieved by the church. It is believed that the curse will slowly be removed as the world is won over. Even disease and death will be all but eliminated before Christ returns to the earth;

(h) DT is preterist in its interpretation of prophecy. This means that they teach that virtually all prophecies which most Christians believe are still future, have in fact been fulfilled already, mainly between the years A.D. 30 and 70. In David Chilton's book, Days of Vengeance, he says that the book of Revelation, "is not about the Second Coming of Christ. It is about the destruction of Israel and Christ's victory over His enemies [during the first century]" (p. 43); and

(i) DT uses an allegorical hermeneutic, especially in reference to prophecy. So we find that the Great Tribulation took place at the fall of Israel in A.D. 70; the Antichrist refers to the apostasy of the Church prior to the fall of Jerusalem; the Beast of Revelation was Nero and the Roman Empire, etc.;

- One of the most important distinctives of DT is its belief in Theonomy. DT teaches that Christians are under the Law as a way of life, and are obligated to ultimately bring the world under that Law. This concept is based on several passages. First, Gen. 1:28 commands Adam to subdue the earth. Adam lost his ability to do so to Satan as a result of sin. The church should now be in the process of reclaiming from the devil what Adam lost. (You will note a hint of the Spiritual Warfare movement here.) Secondly, the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20) commands the followers of Christ to disciple all the nations, which we are told, goes beyond personal salvation and sanctification to the reformation of society;

Matt. 5:17-19 is the passage upon which the system hinges. DT claims that the word "fulfill" actually means "confirm." Thus, Christ did not in any sense fulfill, or complete, or do away with the Law, rather he confirmed it as our rule of life today. The normal and best translation of plerosai is "fulfill" not "confirm." Besides this, however, we have the weight of the NT teaching concerning the Law. The epistles clearly teach that believers are no longer under the Law of Moses (Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:2-4; Gal. 3:24,25; 5:18), having been set free from that bondage to serve under grace and the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2);

And besides, if the Christian is still under Law, why do we not keep the OT ceremonial laws? DT's answer is that the Law was divided into three sections: civil, moral, and ceremonial. The ceremonial law, it is claimed, has been fulfilled by Christ and is no longer incumbent upon the believer, but not so the moral and civil parts of the law. Therefore, we are to live under the moral law and seek to establish, in our society, the civil system of OT Israel. The problem with this view is that nowhere in the Bible is the Law broken into these three sections; this is something invented by men. Whenever the Law is mentioned, the Scriptures are speaking of the whole Law as a unit. The Jews were as obligated to keep the sacrificial system and commandments concerning food and dress (ceremonial law) as they were the Ten Commandments (moral law). If the NT says that Christ fulfilled the Law, and that as Christians we are no longer under the Law, it means the whole Law. Church age saints are no longer obligated to any aspect of the OT Law. No one has the right to arbitrarily claim that we have been set free from some of the Law (the parts we don't like), but that the rest of the Law is obligatory. Either the believer has been released from the whole Law (Rom. 7:4,6) or none of it. "The Law of Moses was given to a specific people (Israel), to be followed in a specific location (the land of Israel), to deal with their specific situation. Therefore, the Law cannot simply be obeyed today by the Church, as was expected of Israel when it was given to that nation" .

On the positive side, "Paul teaches in Galatians 3 and 4 that Christ has set us free from the bondage of the Law, not so that we can be lawless as the Reconstructionists insist, instead, so that we can walk in the newness of the motivation of the Holy Spirit" .

- There are many negative effects that the teachings of DT are having on evangelical Christianity today. Four of these would be:

(a) Reconstructionists teach that the mission of the church goes beyond the spiritual transformation of individuals, to a mandate to change society, a "moral patriotism," if you will, in opposition to secular humanism. For Christ to be pleased with Christians, thereby, they must become political and social activists. We must change the laws of the land, gear up to elect Christians to office, and generally seek to take dominion over our world and bring it under the Law of Moses. We see the influence of this thinking even in those who may know little about DT -- James Dobson, Larry Burkett, the Christian Coalition, Pat Robertson, Promise Keepers, Charles Colson and the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document (ECT), and Operation Rescue, are but a few of the evidences that reconstructionist thinking is beginning to dominate the so-called evangelical world;

(b) Motivation for godly living, based upon the blessed hope -- the return of Christ (Titus 2:13) -- is replaced with the task of restructuring society. This cultural mandate to restructure/restore society is a task that may take thousands of years, even by the DT's own admission (approximately 36,000 years, according to David Chilton);

(c) If we are in the Kingdom Now, then the Charismatics are correct to teach that health and prosperity is the right of every believer today. They are not looking for Christ to return and set up His Kingdom; they are attempting to set it up for Him; and

(d) A theological anti-Semitism exists in the Dominionist plan to replace of Old Testament Israel with the Church, often called the "New Israel" (i.e., "replacement theology" -- the church replaces the Jews as the new or true Israel, and Israel has no future as a distinct nation within God's plan). They believe that Israel does not have a future different from any other nation. Historically, replacement theology has been the theological foundation upon which anti-Semitism has been built within the confines of professing Christianity. While reconstructionists do believe that the individual Jews will be converted to Christ in mass in the future, almost none of them believe that national Israel has a future, and thus, the Church has completely taken over the promises of national Israel. (Reconstructionist say that "ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God's Kingdom. ... the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation." Reconstructionists believe that the Church is now that new nation, which is why Christ destroyed the Jewish state. Reconstructionists have said, "In destroying Israel, Christ transferred the blessings of the kingdom from Israel to a new people, the church."

Katy

quote from Katy-did: [i]"What is interesting about the Kingdom Now theology is how many cults and false counterfeit Mountains or Kingdoms are involved here. One thing they all have in common is the Law of Moses and are all legalistic:
RE: Catholicism
Mormonism
Islam
JW
When I saw the beginning of the Christian Coalition in embracing all of these false religions in the name of trying to establish a righteousness under the Law of Moses, (((seeing this is the ONLY thing they have in Common...it was a most enlightening moment for me.[/i]
_____________________________________________________________

[b]It is my understanding that these groups that you have mentioned above certainly DO NOT uphold the Law given by Moses. They, along with the Constantinian Christianity, reject the Torah (laws, commandments, teachings) of GOD, and have replaced them with their own set of commandments[/b].

Three quick comparisons:

*[u]They all reject the 7th day Sabbath[/u] - some made up a new Sabbath day, such as Sunday, Friday.

*[u]They do not celebrate the Feasts of the LORD - they have established their own 'holy days' based on ancient pagan Mystery religions[/u]

*[u]They do not uphold the clean food laws given by the LORD[/u] - many have substituted other dietery restrictions -Mormons ban alcholol, tea, coffee, while embracing eating unclean foods. - While Islam rejects some unclean food and alcohol.

~I am curious to see how you believe they uphold the Torah........
[b][u]Katy-did, could you provide some references on how these religions that you quoted have the Law of Moses in common? Thanks![/u][/b]

______________________________________________________________

~a note on the KINGDOM~

The Kingdom (the Reign/Rulership) of God is the central theme of the teaching of Yeshua. Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

While we await the future, glorious and all encompassing Kingdom/Reign/Rulership of God, we as individuals can have the Kingdom/Reign/Rulership of God in our hearts and lives, as we submit to HIS authority and rule, in the name of our Saviour Yeshua.

_____________________________________________________________

Thank you for explaining your take on DT, Katy-did. I wondered if you could answer the question regarding your statement that Catholicism, Mormonism, Islam and JW's have the [u]LAW OF MOSES[/u] in common?

Thanks!

Dear Christinyou,

You stated: [i]Who was the Gospel of Jesus spoken to?
He said He came to His own and they received Him not. When Jesus did His ministry, he was speaking the Gospel of Moses and with a few bridges to the Gospel He gave to Paul.[/i]

~Are you stating that there are 2 different gospels recorded in the NT? Why do you believe that Jesus spoke the Gospel of Moses with a few bridges to the Gospel He gave to Paul?

The Gospel of Jesus was first spoken to the Jewish community. The first believers (tens of thousands) were almost entirely Jewish. The Gospel was then preached to the gentiles......

Stephen

I am curious to see how you believe they uphold the Torah........

Strider100, I just did, but you posted this again.

**Grace** cannot be mandated by anyone. Grace is a gift from God, received BY FAITH, and the Law is not Faith.

Many cults and false religions love the moral teachings of Jesus, as do even Islam. These Moral teachings also come out of Matthew. While many embrace these teachings they reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

Let's step back into history for a moment.

The beginning of Romans says that there was a moral law of right and wrong within the conscience of all man. We don't really know what they knew, however we know they turned the knowledge of that Glory of God and corrupted it.

Even so, we also know that with the fall of Adam and Eve, regardless of that knowledge, mankind was utterly lost.

Immediately after the fall of Adam and Eve, a promise of a redeemer was made. Genesis 3:15.

That promise will be completely fulfilled after the 1000 years, when the final enemy called DEATH is no more when death and hades is thrown into the lake of fire.

The Church has no authority or power to do such things.

Our conscience NOW has been purged by the Blood of Jesus Christ...Hebrews 8.

Also it is in our death and resurrection Life in Christ we have a clean conscience with God.

1 Peter 3:19-21

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So, our moral conscience, no matter how religion wants to mandate and control, is still a filthy rag before God.

When Christ who IS OUR LIFE shall appear WE will appear with Him in GLORY!.......was never preached in Matthew.

Katy

Katy-did, thank you for your reply,:-)

You explained Dominion Theology (DT), [i]not[/i] how the religions you mentioned have the Law of Moses in common...
Dominion Theology teaches that the kingdom of God will be established on Earth through political and (in some cases) even military means, preparing the way for or enabling the return of the Messiah, mostly found within Charismatic and hyper-Charismatic Christian churches. These churches openly reject the Law of Moses as well.

What I am failing to see is how[u] Catholicism, Mormonism, JW's and Islam [i]have ONLY one thing in common - the Law of Moses[/i][/u]. You said it was a most enlightening moment when you saw that connection between them. I personally don't believe that they claim any such connection to each other through the Law of Moses, as they [i]all reject the Law of God[/i] given by Moses. [i]That[/i] would seem to be a more unifying factor....their [color=0000CC][i]rejection[/i][/color] of the Torah.

[color=000099]As I explained, quote:
[b]It is my understanding that these groups that you have mentioned above certainly DO NOT uphold the Law given by Moses. They, along with the Constantinian Christianity, reject the Torah (laws, commandments, teachings) of GOD, and have replaced them with their own set of commandments.[/b]

Three quick comparisons:

*[u]They all reject the 7th day Sabbath[/u] - they made up a new Sabbath day, such as Sunday, Friday.

*[u]They do not celebrate the Feasts of the LORD[/u] - they have established their own 'holy days' based on ancient pagan mystery religions.

*[u]They do not uphold the clean food laws given by the LORD[/u] - many have substituted other dietery restrictions -Mormons ban alcholol, tea, coffee etc, - while Islam has rejected some unclean food.[/color]

If we could focus like a lazer beam on finding this commonality that you have found in these religions, regarding the Law of Moses. [u]Is there even [i]one[/i] thing that they all hold in common that can be found in the LAW OF MOSES? i.e. The first five books of the Bible, the "Torah"[/u]

*Remember that in Catholicism, the 'works' that they adhere to are manmade rituals and dogmas, far, far removed from the Law given to Moses by the LORD.
*Mormons have a whole set of instructions and doctrines in their Joseph Smith writings - none of it can be verified in the Torah.
*JW's do not practice the Law of Moses. They hold to Sunday sabbath, eat unclean food etc - not upholding Torah.
*Islam has its own books and laws - far removed from the Torah of YHWH.

[u]Where is the common thread of Torah in these groups? (the law of Moses)[/u]

Thankyou,
Stephen

What I am failing to see is how Catholicism, Mormonism, JW's and Islam have ONLY one thing in common - the Law of Moses.

Strider100, there are two principles, a works salvation based on the Law, and that of Grace plus nothing.

None of the above are based on the finished work of Christ at Calvary.

In one form or fashion, legalism of any form whether the complete Torah or just a partial, is self righteousness...not the Righteousness of Christ alone.

Katy

Quote:
What I am failing to see is how Catholicism, Mormonism, JW's and Islam have ONLY one thing in common - the Law of Moses.

Strider100, there are two principles, a works salvation based on the Law, and that of Grace plus nothing.
None of the above are based on the finished work of Christ at Calvary.
In one form or fashion, legalism of any form whether the complete Torah or just a partial, is self righteousness...not the Righteousness of Christ alone.
Katy

__________________________________________________________

[color=000099]Thank you Katy. For the sake of clarity, could we then agree that the Law (torah) of Moses is [i]not[/i] the only common factor between the religions that you mentioned (as they all reject it), ...
but what you are trying to say is that they have [b]their own[/b] MANMADE system of rules and dogmas which they feel they have to do to enter the Kingdom?

It is very clear that those groups reject the Torah of Moses, and thus are more unified by their rejection of Torah. They purport to follow Christ, but even reject His teaching....."If you would enter into life, keep the commandments".[/color]

Stephen
(I prefer clarity to agreement - Dennis Prager quote)

Strider, Do you know something that just struck me?

When John the Baptist began to preach " The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand....

Do you recall any Gentiles lining up to be baptized? I don't. Do you see the Jews persecuting John? I don't.

However we do see he was beheaded by Gentiles, after he rebuked the marriage of this brother and sister team. Was that based on the Law of Moses?

The Jews didn't have a problem with John the Baptist or what he was preaching, calling it a different message.

However when Jesus came on the scene...WOW all hades broke loose.

Were they preaching the same thing?

What was John Preaching, that the Law was abolished? If he had, he certainly would have been persecuted wouldn't he?

Were Gentiles at that time invited to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven John Preached?

I don't see that do you?

Just some thoughts here.

Katy

PS Strider, just wanted to add this.

We know Jesus said He didn't come to do away with the law but filfill.

We also see under the law it was an Eye for an Eye .

Adultery etc was stoning.

Yet, Jesus while under the Law was Forgiving people. This absolutely angered the Pharisees.

So it wasn't just being accused of not keeping the sabbath, but other issues as well.

Hi Destiny,

I will answer more fully later this evening, but did want to reply to you now.

Yes, we are given the ministry of Preaching the Gospel of reconciliation, via the Cross.

Will talk more later!

Katy :-)

Destiny,
I'm back, but really need to ask you to clarify your question more fully.

Are you saying our ministry is "On earth as it is in Heaven NOW"

At the end of that prayer it says For thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory forever and ever amen.

The beginning starts, Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done.

We do see in Revelation 11 that only at that time will the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

This prayer actually is for this time, when Israel will be praying for the Kingdom restored to Israel as they wait for the fulfillment of Prophecies still promised to them.

Please refer to Isaiah 14. Yet to be fulfilled. The Church is not and has never been referred to as *The house of Jacob*...that is referring to Israel, and also to this time of great tribulation, the overthrow of Babylon, and through that establishing ZION, the Earthly Throne of David.

This will be after the great Tribulation the Kingdom will be set up. At that time it will be on earth as it is in Heaven.

The Lord has to first overthrow all Gentile world arrogance who are following the anti-christ who many will believe has all ready set up the Kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven.

Now to the Church Jesus said, My Kingdom is not of this world.

I hope that clarifies.

Katy

Dear Christinyou,

You asked: [i]"Do you see the differences in the Gospel of Christ for Israel and The Gospel of Christ given to Paul for the Body of Christ the Church?'[/i]
[b]My answer is: NO![/b] :-)

I understand how you can perceive that there are 2 gospels. Yeshua obviously upheld the Torah, and taught his disciple to do the same. However, that you believe Paul preached another gospel to the gentiles is where I would strongly disagree with you.

[b]I believe that the teachings and message of Yeshua are for all mankind, trump all else, and can all be verified in the Law and the Prophets.[/b]!

Blessings,
Steve

Now my mind is back to when I first got saved.

I knew I was saved, though all alone in my house that day and night and the next day - because my consciousness of sin when through the roof.

If I just got saved yesterday and came to read this thread, which of the over 600 laws would you tell me that I must keep Steve?

I would want them listed and plainly and clearly because I told you I have a VERY strong conscience that may even be one of those that the enemy uses to condemn me for things I didn't do.

Please list them for me. Please.

Dear He Reigns,

[i]You asked for a list of laws for a new believer to obey.[/i]

[b]My response would be similar to that of James, along these lines:[/b]

Acts 15:13-18 [u]When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things' that have been known for ages.’[/u]

Acts 15:19-20 [u]"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.[/u]*

[b]*Here it would depend on whether or not the person was involved in some or other worldly sinful practice that would be unacceptable to be brought into a fellowship. Today one could think of homosexuality, arriving under the influence of drugs or alchohol, openly listening to demonic music, or perhaps dressing in 'gothic' costume, or very promiscuously, etc. One could gently counsel the new believer that such practice is unacceptable while attending a fellowship meeting, and help them understand more appropriate behaviour.[/b]

Acts 15:21 *[u]For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."[/u]

*So instead of making a 'list of things to be obeyed', as you asked, I would suggest that the new believer [b]starts fellowshipping with other disciples, and in so doing would begin to learn and understand the Scriptures, and the teachings of the LORD. Overtime, the LORD will write HIS law on their hearts and mind and cause them to walk in HIS ways. The Holy Spirit will lead them into all truth as they earnestly and sincerely walk in the Way, following our Lord Yeshua.[/b]

Eventually........... they would begin to understand that we are to [b]'take up our cross daily' and follow Yehoshua. That we are to 'walk as He walked'. Like Paul, we 'beat and pommel our bodies', bringing them in subjection to HIM. That we 'strive for the prize of the upward calling of God in Messiah'.[/b] One step at a time.

Thanks.
Stephen

PS What would you suggest differently?

This article blew my socks off, as a friend would say!

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4446&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Stephen, I don't understand why you don't understand what the Sabbath really is, but this article shows me that [i]I[/i] don't understand either; not really, not in practice - even after knowing the [i]theory[/i] for years!

Please read it. Life-transforming truth!

Thanks

Jeannette

Christinyou,

I would just like to point out that the words you quoted Jesus as saying (quote) [i]"Jesus then says, "I never knew you"[/i], are actually taken from this passage in Matthew 7, where Jesus is addressing those who practice iniquity, or lawlessness (sin) - NOT those who seek to honour Him by obeying HIS commandments!

Here it is: [b]"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!'[/b]

____________________________________________

You asked: "Do you see the differences in the Gospel of Christ for Israel and The Gospel of Christ given to Paul for the Body of Christ the Church?'
I answered: NO!

Christinyou, what difference do you see in the 2 Gospels that you spoke about? Do you believe that the teachings and words of the Lord Jesus are for you, or do you only go by "Paul's Gospel"?

Thankyou,
Stephen

***Thanks for the link, Little GIft. As wonderful as the reality of 'resting in Yeshua' is, it does not negate the 7th day Sabbath of rest, but [i]compliments[/i] it!***

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, [u]according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,[/u]

Strider,

Was a redeemer kept secret? Genesis 3:15 says No,

Was the Law kept secret? NO!

Were the teachings of the Kingdom Age kept secret? No

So what was this that was kept secret, but is NOW made known?

It's the CHURCH...the Body of Christ.

It's those who are a peculiar people of HIS OWN, crucified with Christ and Baptized into the Body of Christ...a Heavenly Citizenship---co-heirship. Those who are seated together with Christ in Heavenly Places In Christ Jesus.

Part of the Mystery about the Church is the rapture of the Church, His Body.

We have entered into HIS rest.

When Jesus returns to earth with the Church to set up the Kingdom Promised to Israel, there will be a rest (Isaiah 14:7) upon the whole earth.

BUT NOW.....
During this time of Grace, both Jew and Gentile are members of His Body, forming ONE NEW MAN. The walls between Jew and Gentile have been broken down, and In HIM we are a New Creation..

This ONE NEW MAN is inlawed to Jesus Christ, who is our ALL in ALL. WE are Complete In Him.

When Jesus comes to earth setting up the Kingdom, there will be the Judgement of Nations and Judgement of Individual Jews and Gentiles, still in their human bodies (( as we will be Glorified together with Him)) and there will be a separation of sheep and goats.....

You do not see at this time spoken in Matthew a Book, called the Lambs Book of Life brought out to decide who enters into the Kingdom on earth and who doesn't. NO you don't, as this is not the FINAL end of things. At this time Israel will be teh head not the tail, and Gentiles will be in submission. (((Does this sound like the ONE NEW MAN, not longer Jew of Gentile? No!

There is no mention of the Lake of Fire, or the Great White Throne Judgement at this time. Satan will only be bound for 1000 years. Jesus must rule intil He has put ALL things under His feet...and then the end leading to the Great White Throne Judgement when deth and hades (((those still without Christ from teh beginning of mankind)) will be Judged. During this time in Matthew...do you see the dead being judged? NO!

So it is important to separate these different times and events.

Katy

LittleGift wrote:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4446&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Please read it. Life-transforming truth!

Dear Christinyou,

Thank you for your reply. I wondered if you could address this question?:

[i]Quote:
"Christinyou, what [b]difference[/b] do you see in the 2 Gospels that you spoke about?"[/i].

Thank you
Stephen

Dear Little Gift,

You stated earlier: [i]quote: 'Stephen, I don't understand why you don't understand what the Sabbath really is'[/i].

Jeannette, I have no confusion about the Sabbath! My source comes from the Creator Himself.

HE said clearly: [b]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.[/b]

HE said it would be a [i]perpetual sign[/i] of HIS people. He did not say that it would be abolished. Very clear. No confusion, when we stick with the Scriptures and what HE said, and not what man has interpreted!

Thanks.
Stephen

Strider100 wrote:
Dear Little Gift,

You stated earlier: [i]quote: 'Stephen, I don't understand why you don't understand what the Sabbath really is'[/i].

Jeannette, I have no confusion about the Sabbath! My source comes from the Creator Himself.

HE said clearly: [b]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.[/b]

HE said it would be a [i]perpetual sign[/i] of HIS people. He did not say that it would be abolished. Very clear. No confusion, when we stick with the Scriptures and what HE said, and not what man has interpreted!

Thanks.
Stephen

Confusion implies uncertainty, but you are absolutely certain you are right in limiting the Sabbath to a day of the week, and are even convinced that this is what the Bible says!

HE said it would be a perpetual sign of HIS people. He did not say that it would be abolished. Very clear. No confusion, when we stick with the Scriptures and what HE said, and not what man has interpreted!

As far as I know, [i][b]no-one has said that the Sabbath should be abolished[/b][/i]! Where did you get that idea???

What has been said is that the Sabbath should be kept as the Lord originally intended - a [i]perpetual[/i] Sabbath. Not one day a week, but 24/7, every single day of the year, for ever!

Why do you find fault with that???

Indeed the Sabbath [i]is[/i] from the Creator - you speak truly. So why do you then insist on merely keeping one day in seven and calling that the Sabbath?

Blessings

Jeannette

Dear Christinyou,

I am not sure how you find the reference to the 7th Day Sabbath shows the difference in the 2 Gospels. [u](The 2 Gospel teaching within Christianity is new to me, and I strongly reject such a notion).[/u] The text is [i]clearly[/i] speaking of a [b]resting from our regular human jobs and household chores on the Sabbath day[/b]. I would suggest that you are reading things into that text that simply are not there.

Also, setting the 7th day aside for rest and study of GOD's word is [u]'not a work for salvation'[/u]. I have NEVER heard of anyone who keeps the Sabbath as a [i]'work for salvation'[/i] - have you? That is the old strawman argument, which is devoid of any substance. Resting is not work.

Christinyou, you said, quote: [i]'We earthbound creatures cannot make a day holy'[/i]. This is in direct contradiction to what our CREATOR said we CAN do - [u]I believe that it is the lie of the ADVERSARY that is whispering such things...........the old whisperer that deceived Eve.... [i]'Did God say.[/i]...'[/u]

Partaking of the bread and wine in Remembrance of Yeshua does NOT [u]nullify[/u] the 7th day Sabbath, and [u]nowhere[/u] in Scripture does it say anything like that, or allude to such a teaching.

The Most High God, YHWH, declared the 7th day Sabbath to be a [u]Set-apart Day[/u]. (biblical meaning of the word 'holy' is 'set-apart'). HE then specifically told HIS people to [u]Remember[/u] it. Not to Forget it, or Abolish it.

Obviously if you believe in a 2 Gospel NT, you can maybe work it that the Sabbath day is not for you. [u]Therein lies our differences.[/u] I believe in ONE gospel for the Jew and the Greek. The gentiles are invited to be part of the people of YHWH through the grace of Yehoshua.

2 Gospels? [i]Another Gospel?[/i] [color=660000][u]I assume that the silence from the rest of the readers of this thread indicates that this 2 Gospel doctrine is in perfect alignment with current orthodox Christianity???[/u][/color]

I believe that it is a [u]desperate attempt[/u] to justify the very liberal trend of rejecting the Torah of the Most High God, which was upheld by HIS chosen Messiah.

Stephen

Dear little Gift,

You said quote: [i]
As far as I know, no-one has said that the Sabbath should be abolished! Where did you get that idea???[/i]

My answer to that is that if one does not Remember the 7th Day Sabbath as the LORD instructed, it is the same as [i]abolishing[/i] it.

____________________________________________________________

Little Gift also said, quote: [i]"What has been said is that the Sabbath should be kept as the Lord originally intended - a perpetual Sabbath. Not one day a week, but 24/7, every single day of the year, for ever![/i]".

[color=330000]My response to that is simply this - Could you please show the reference from Scripture about a [u][b]perpetual[/b][/u] Sabbath Day that comes before the return of our Lord Yeshua?

The [b][u]perpetual sign[/u][/b] of the people of God is their Remembrance of the Seventh Day Sabbath[/color].

Most people I meet are extremely frazzelled, stretched to the hilt, Christians included. That they fool themselves into believing they keep a perpetual Sabbath must be another delusion of the Adversary. Most people are perpetually and frantically [b]busy[/b]. That I 'insist on a 7th Day Sabbath' is one of the clear teachings of the Scriptures, which I am honored and blessed to observe. It is a JOY and DELIGHT to set a day apart unto HIM, amidst a busy work schedule. Please do not say I am 'working for my salvation'. I am RESTING in my Redeemer, and thankful that He gave me the Sabbath day to rest from my daily work!

Blessings to you,
Stephen

Christinyou: quote: [i]"I don't reject the Torah, it just is not for the Born Again believer. The Torah is the Word of God. I do not have life by the Torah, I have life by who I am in Christ, not that keeping of the Torah makes me who I am, a son of God"[/i].

...[i]"The old governed by Satan their father, and the Law, Torah if you will"...[/i]
_______________________________________________

Dear Christinyou,

Thank you for clarifying your beliefs.

I would just like to comment on your statement ...[i]"The old governed by Satan their father, and the Law, Torah if you will"...[/i]

It is [b]impossible[/b] to be governed by Satan, and the Torah at the same time! The Torah is Good, Holy, Just, Life, the perfect Way of God, a Lamp to our feet, a Light to our Path. Satan is the [i]opposite[/i] to that!

I believe all the Father's instructions are LIFE-giving. Breaking and ignoring them brings DEATH. Yehoshua, the living Torah, demonstrated the perfect Torah (teachings, commandments, laws, statutes) of His Father to us.

The Old covenant was the Torah written on stone. [b]The New Covenant is the Torah written on our hearts and minds[/b]. ~Same Torah, except the [u]punishments[/u] were born by our Saviour. The LORD made the Covenant with Israel - the Old and the New. Gentiles are invited to [b]join themselves to the House of Israel, and so partake of the Covenants.[/b]

Thank you for your input, Phillip,
Blessings to you on your journey!
Stephen.
:-)

Thank you Miccah.

How can one have "Sabbath" without The Deity of Christ Jesus ?

I don't care what day of the week a person chooses to set aside - but without Him being called Lord [i]and[/i] GOD - what is there to discuss about "Sabbath" ?

We must love Him with all that we have and are, for WHO He is, before all else.

I said in a previous post, quote [i]"The Torah is Good, Holy, Just, Life, the perfect Way of God, a Lamp to our feet, a Light to our Path".[/i]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miccah said in response, quote [i]"No. That is Jesus Christ, Lord and God'[/i]
___________________________________________________________________

Dear Miccah,

[u]I would just like to point out that I was quoting Scripture there:[/u] (Torah means teachings, commandments, precepts, laws of God) Yeshua is our perfect example of the One to live out all of His Father's Torah.

*Ps:119:105 Thy word is a [b]lamp[/b] to my feet and a [b]light[/b] to my path.
*Romans 7:12 So the [b]law is holy[/b], and the [b]commandment is holy and just and good[/b].
*Psalm 40:8 I [b]delight to do Your will[/b], O my God, And Your [b]Torah is within my heart.[/b]"
*Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, Who [b]walk in the Torah of the LORD![/b]
*Psalm 119:18 Open my eyes, that I may see [b]Wondrous things from Your Torah[/b].
*Psalm 119:44 So shall I keep Your Torah continually, Forever and ever.
*Psalm 119:53 Indignation has taken hold of me Because of the wicked, who f[b]orsake Your teachings and instructions[/b]
*Psalm 119:72 The [b]teaching and instruction[/b] of Your mouth is better to me Than thousands of coins of gold and silver.
*Psalm 119:77 Let Your tender mercies come to me, that I may live; For Your [b]teaching and instruction is my delight.[/b]
*Psalm 119:97 Oh, how [b]I love Your teaching and instruction[/b]! It is my meditation all the day.
*Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your [b]teaching and instruction is truth[/b].
*Psalm 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth, To such as keep [b]His covenant and His testimonies.[/b]

*Psalm 19:7 on...
[b]The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the LORD is sure,
making wise the simple;
the precepts of the LORD are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the LORD is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
the fear of the LORD is clean,
enduring for ever;
the ordinances of the LORD are true,
and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
Moreover by them is thy servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
But who can discern his errors?
Clear thou me from hidden faults.
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins;
let them not have dominion over me!
Then I shall be blameless,
and innocent of great transgression.
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable in thy sight,
O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.[/b]

~~~[u]Because of our wonderful Saviour, we are brought into the household of God, and can love HIS Torah, written on our hearts and minds by the grace of HIS Son, Yehoshua[/u]~~~

~Miccah, I am not sure if you believe along the same lines as Christinyou (Phillip) - He sees a quote: [i]"difference in the Gospel of Christ for Israel and The Gospel of Christ given to Paul for the Body of Christ the Church"[/i]?

~Christinyou asked, quote: [i]"Were these not Jews governed by the Torah and of their Father the Devil?"[/i]
[u]Methinks - NO. If one is governed by the Torah, one's Father would be YHWH, not the Devil![/u]

Thank you
Stephen.
:-)

Addressed to Strider100 & Jayyou

What is a Christian believer? Is he an imitator of Jesus Christ, the Son of God? Is there any way that the Christian, through the power of his will, can keep the law? The Sermon on the Mount clarifies that question in the negative. It is not possible to go through this life sinless as Christ did. Christ tells us that if we even look upon a woman in lust, we are guilty of the sin of adultery. Today, with the way that women are dressed can any man honestly say that he has never lusted after a woman? Go down the list in Matthew 5:20-48 and honestly tell me that you are not guilty, by thought or deed, of any of the sins mentioned.

God's standard is- if you break one law, you have broken them all, and are on your way to hell and damnation.

[b]Actually, the Christian believer lives a different life. He/She never has to imitate Christ, ever![/b]

The Christian life is an [b]Exchanged Life:[/b]

When you became a Christian a great exchange took place. Jesus Christ took your place, and died for you on the cross. All of your sins were placed upon Jesus Christ, and He died in your stead. In that great transaction Christ got all your sins and guilt, and you received His righteousness as your eternal position in Christ.

The Apostle Paul expressed this great spiritual principle in the following words. "He (God) made Him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (II Corinthians 5:21).

The Apostle Peter made the same emphasis when he wrote the following. "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit" (II Peter 3:18). Then he goes on to say Christ "bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed" (I Peter 2:24). The sinless one died for the sinner.

[b]THE PERSON OF THE EXCHANGED LIFE
Christ wants to live His life through us.[/b]

It is only the life of Christ––His activity, clothed with you and displayed through you, that ultimately will find the approval of God. The Lord Jesus alone makes our sacrifices acceptable to God.

Only what Christ does in you and through you merits God's approval. That is probably the hardest truth to learn in the Christian life. Jesus said to His disciples: "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

[b]It is not what I do for God[/b]

We want to do it ourselves. We want to do it our way. We want to do it the way we think best. We want to get the credit. Now that we are saved we think we can do it all in our own human strength. We even try to conduct His work in our fleshly, sinful nature. God will have nothing of it.

God will accept nothing less than His way! A lot that we have done in the name of Jesus is going to burn up because we have done it in the power and motives of the flesh.
The Apostle Paul says:
"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire" (I Cor. 3:10-15).

[color=FF0000][b]There is a form of Christian activity that is all right for immediate consumption. It impresses everybody. It will draw a crowd. It will get the applause. However, it will always leave a STENCH behind it if it stems from the FLESH! It is self-activity! It makes the flesh smell great. It will always produce a kind of fruit that drops, premature and immature, to ROT ON THE GROUND. It WILL NEVER REPRODUCE THE FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. [/color][/b]

[b]THE POWER OF THE EXCHANGED LIFE
The exchanged life is a life of faith. [/b]
Can any situation possibly arise, in any circumstances, for which Christ is not adequate? Can there arise any pressure, or promise, or any problem, or any responsibility for which the Lord Jesus Himself is not adequate?

When I realize the total adequacy of Christ in me is there any situation for which He is not adequate? If there is any situation in which Christ is inadequate then it is a clear indication that I am not in the will of God.
Christ is limited only by the measure of our availability to all that He makes available to us.

[b]The exchanged life is a Spirit-controlled life.[/b]

Since the exchanged life is a walk of faith, it must be a life that is filled or controlled by the Holy Spirit.

When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are allowing the Holy Spirit to occupy the whole of our personality with the all sufficiency of Christ.

Jesus said, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:38-39).

When I am under the influence of the Holy Spirit, I draw upon the unlimited resources of Christ. The resurrection life of Jesus is imparted to the true believer by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

"Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me" (Gal. 2:20b). That is what it means to live the Spirit-filled life.

Many years ago I heard the Argentine evangelist, Santiago Garaballe, give an illustration of a man who bought a new car. He had never owned a car in his life. The car came with a powerful engine under the hood. What if the man then spent the rest of his life pushing it around! Come on family let's go for a ride! Can you imagine what a life that would be like? Every time he would get into the car someone would have to guide the steering wheel, and someone else would have to start pushing it! What if someone came to him and said, "Jose, why are you always pushing that car? Don't you have any gas in it?"

"Why, yes," said Jose. "It came with a full tank of gas. But I didn't know what to do with it."

"Here, let me show you Jose. Put your keys in here and turn on the ignition. Man, hear that engine purr ... Now there is real power! Come on let's go for a ride."

[b]In the Christian life you have a powerful engine under the hood––nothing less than the resurrection life of Christ made available to you through the person of God the Holy Spirit who lives within you. Stop pushing! Switch on the power! Expose every temptation, every opportunity, every hill of circumstance, every threatening situation to the divine energy of Christ in you. [/b]

How wonderful it is to be in such an intimate, personal love relationship with God that everything you need, for any circumstance, is always yours, by the hand of God upon you!

Sincerely,

Walter

Katydid..I think my question is clear enough..read it again slower this time with an open heart to me and prayerfully ask the Lord to help you hear what the Spirit of Truth is saying.

And Again saying:

I realize when I write too much you don't get around to addressing what I'm saying..only in furthering your agenda, or seeing only what you want to see in what I'm saying..and worse.. seem to be intent upon casting aspersions on me in trying to align me with false teachings and doctrines..why? because I disagree or question you concerning the absolute truth of your statements?

And Again Saying:

I will spell it out for you more definitively after you respond if necessary..I am prepared to do so should you still find it necessary to interrogate me concerning my faith in Christ words to His believers on this issue.

Destiny, My first response to this was NOT to you but to Strider, of which we have had I believe a great conversation going WITHOUT presumptuous accusations as you have made here.

YOU responded to a post I made to Strider concerning the differences in the Kingdoms.

Now, I have not seen anyone BUT YOU make such outlandish accusations as you have made here.

I suppose you will be calling A.W. Pink and Scofield Liars as well???

I answered YOUR questions to me by further explaining through Scripture WHY I believe as I do.

Absolutely NOTHING to do with your accusations as to why I stated what I did.

Destinysweet, this thread is not about YOU.

So I presume you are calling all who believe in the different dispensations as LIARS.

However, if YOU believe there is the Old and the New, you are a Dispensationalists whether you like it or not!

You may want to read the footnotes of Scofield or A.W. Pink and call them Liars as well.

I also know by the Spirit of Truth that when Jesus appeared to Paul, the Brightness of His Glory was such that it knocked Paul right off his horse, and blinded him. I don't believe he actually saw the Lord face to face eyes wide open. What he described was a Light....His Glory!

I will NOT be responding to any more of your posts here.

Have a nice day :-)

Katy

Strider100 wrote:
Dear little Gift,

You said quote: [i]
As far as I know, no-one has said that the Sabbath should be abolished! Where did you get that idea???[/i]

My answer to that is that if one does not Remember the 7th Day Sabbath as the LORD instructed, it is the same as [i]abolishing[/i] it.

That probably includes [i]all of us[/i], (yes, you too) without exception :-(

Little Gift also said, quote: [i]"What has been said is that the Sabbath should be kept as the Lord originally intended - a perpetual Sabbath. Not one day a week, but 24/7, every single day of the year, for ever![/i]".

[color=330000]My response to that is simply this - Could you please show the reference from Scripture about a [u][b]perpetual[/b][/u] Sabbath Day that comes before the return of our Lord Yeshua?[/color]

For context, here is the whole passage.

Surely it's obvious that here is something greater even than the seventh day Sabbath; into which the Lord is inviting us, indeed commanding us to enter?

Hebrews 3:7 to 4:
[color=990000] 7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, when you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness, 9 where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years. 10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts;
they have not known my ways.’ 11 As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’” 12 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today, when you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 16 Who were they that heard and yet were rebellious? Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

[b]Chapter 4[/b]
1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall never enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this place he said,
“They shall never enter my rest.” 6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, when you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day. 9 So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; 10 for whoever enters God’s rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his.
11 Let us therefore strive [***or hasten]*** to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.[/color]

[The Revised Standard Version]

The [b][u]perpetual sign[/u][/b] of the people of God is their Remembrance of the Seventh Day Sabbath[/color].

Most people I meet are extremely frazzelled, stretched to the hilt, Christians included. That they fool themselves into believing they keep a perpetual Sabbath must be another delusion of the Adversary. Most people are perpetually and frantically [b]busy[/b].

In the context of the Hebrews passage, the "entering into rest" is speaking of all battles won; the end of warfare, because all victories are gained.

Christ has won the victory. He cried "IT IS FINISHED!" and rested.

This is the Sabbath rest. Anything less is not the true Sabbath rest at all.

I have no doubt you get great refreshment and blessing in keeping the Seventh day. I am in no way knocking that. I am only saying that there is far more, which you seem not even to see, let alone seek.

Belileve in the finished work of Christ, enter into His rest.

I'm not there yet either, but "LET US 'LABOUR' TO ENTER INTO HIS REST!"

What is stopping you?

in Him who is our Peace

Jeannette

Good job Katy!

I have one question.

When Jesus was on earth, would you say that both The Kingdom of heaven, and the Kingdom of God were here.

Chiefosinners,

In answer to your question, maybe this will help.

Knowing the doctrinal difference between the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" is the key to understanding the complete time line of Biblical history, past, present, and future, the proper place of the Church, and the prophetic future of Israel. The Bible is about the struggle for a Kingdom; the Kingdom of Heaven, a Kingdom with its Capital City (Jerusalem) on this Earth.

Israel rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah when He first came because Israel was looking for a political King who would make Israel the world ruling kingdom spoken of by their prophets (see Jeremiah 23:5, Psalms 48:2). They were expecting a military deliverance from the Romans and the rest of the heathen. This is easy to understand as they were expecting carnal deliverance. However, they were missing the point about spiritual deliverance and righteousness, which led them to ask of Jesus:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
(Luke 17:20-21 KJV)

In that statement, Jesus was declaring a spiritual truth that Israel did not see. But on another occasion, when asked about His Kingdom by Pontius Pilot, He gave a somewhat different answer:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but [u][i][b]NOW[/b][/i][/u] is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

In this particular passage the word [u][i][b]NOW[/b][/i][/u]is not speaking about the spiritual Kingdom of God (within you), but of a literal political Kingdom yet to come on the Earth. You should also take note that the word "now" has been removed from many newer translations (NASB, AMP, NLT, ESV, CEV). The reason is because most of the translators of today's "Bibles" are amillennial in their position on prophecy. In other words, they do not accept the literal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to reign on the Earth for a thousand years as foretold in Revelation.

Although that truth is rejected by a major portion of "Christianity" today, His disciples knew it and were asking when the literal Kingdom would come:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
(Acts 1:6-8 KJV)

The disciples are clearly asking about a literal Kingdom, and the Lord says it is not for them to know the time when that literal Kingdom (the Kingdom of Heaven) will take place. Until that time the disciples were given power to preach the Kingdom of God; righteousness through faith in the risen Savior who will return to Earth and rule over the whole Earth from Jerusalem.

This is one of the most hated and least understood doctrines of the Bible, yet one of the most important in rightly dividing the truth; the separation of Church doctrine from Tribulation doctrine. Some churches do not want to hear this, because they think that the Church has replaced Israel. Certainly the whole world reviles at the prospect of hated Israel becoming the head of the Kingdoms. There is a hatred of Christians and Jews on a spiritual level that is beyond their own comprehension. Satan hates the Jews, and the world is under Satan's control. Hate and envy are the root reasons the word "now" is removed from John 18:36 in some translations. The world does not want the Lord Jesus Christ to return and rule over them. That is why the Jews killed their King the first time He came. Here is what their King will say about that when He returns:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
(Luke 19:27 KJV)

There will be a big attitude difference between the Lord's first coming as the gentle Lamb of God and His Second Coming as the warrior King, the Lion of Judah:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
(Revelation 19:11-13 KJV)

The Lord Jesus Christ came to His own and preached a dualistic message. To the Jews, the heirs of the promised political Kingdom, the Lord preached the Gospel of the "Kingdom of Heaven" - a literal physical Kingdom soon to come:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
(Matt. 4:17 KJV)

To the entire world He preached the coming "Kingdom of God" - righteousness and holiness:

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."
(Mark 1:14 KJV)

Because the Lord used the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" interchangeably in places in the four Gospels, most Christians think they are one and the same. They will be, but not until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when He rules the world for a thousand years on the throne of His father David (His father in the flesh, His human side) at Jerusalem. Again:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

If you rightly divide the Bible, you will see that Jesus was preaching about two (2) components of the Kingdom. He preached that the political kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven) was coming, and if the Jews had accepted Him after His death and resurrection, He would have come back and established it after seven years of tribulation, as foretold in the prophecies:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(Daniel 9:24-27 KJV)

In fact, when Stephen was preaching to the Pharisees as they were stoning him, the Lord Jesus was standing up from His seat in the third heaven ready to come back, save the Jews, and establish the Kingdom:

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
(Acts 7:55-56 KJV)

To show by the Scriptures the difference between the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God," the Holy Spirit has put this little nugget of truth within the Gospel of Matthew:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
(Matt. 11:12 KJV)

Ask yourself this question: If the "Kingdom of God" is within you, and if the "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are one and the same, how could anyone take it out of you by violence? And if that righteousness i.e., the Kingdom of God within you, could not possibly be there until after the cross and the resurrection, what is Jesus saying to the Jews here BEFORE the cross and the resurrection? The answer is the Kingdom of Israel, which is God's people and Jerusalem, the Lord's chosen place from which to rule:

"But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King."
(Matt. 5:34-35 KJV)

Israel rejected their King when He came the first time. In the almost two millenniums since then His Kingdom has been in a MYSTERY form; the Lord Jesus Christ reigning in the heart of the believer, and yet seated on the right had of the Father in the third heaven...

[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
(Colossians 1:26-27 KJV)

...while Satan still holds the physical throne over this world:

And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
(Luke 4:6-7 KJV)

Although Satan has now lost the war, the final battle for physical possession is yet to come. This is the present status of the Kingdom of Heaven.

In the more than 1,900 years since His own people rejected His salvation, God has been chastising Israel while blessings and salvation has gone out to the Gentiles. However, God is not finished with Israel, but He IS just about finished with the Gentiles. The Gentiles' time is running out. The Apostle Paul said this:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
(Romans 11:25-26 KJV)

We are living in the last days of the blessing to the Gentiles. The Jews are back in the land of Israel (although the Arab world does not recognize it as "Israel" but insists on calling it "Palestine"). Regardless of the name, it is still the land that God promised to Abraham and his seed through Isaac and Jacob, not through the line of Ishmael. That is the ancient root of contention still festering today over the issue of the land.

The Jews have returned to the land as prophesied in the Scriptures, but they are still in unbelief about Jesus. Although they are the enemies of the Gospel of Grace by the Lord Jesus Christ...

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:"
(Romans 11:28-30 KJV)

...they are still God's people and He will use the present evil world to chastise them, open their eyes to the truth they rejected, and bring them again to Himself. That is the truth of the matter - a truth that is bitterly denied by the whole world. Jerusalem and the Middle East are the crucible and iron furnace that will soon wax hotter as the prophecies unfold before us.

Beware! There are two things to watch for which must come to pass before the Lord's return. First (and this is directly related to relationship of Jerusalem between Israel, the Arab world, and the Palestinians) there will be some kind of contract among all parties on the matter of Jerusalem in an effort to establish peace. This is spoken of by the prophet Daniel:

"Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."
(Daniel 11:28-31 KJV)

Second, there is going to be a new Temple built in Jerusalem in the future. Notice that the context above is about the exploits of the coming Antichrist, whom unbelieving Israel and the unbelieving world will welcome as the Messiah. Take note about the "daily sacrifice" and the sanctuary, and the abomination that "maketh desolate." There cannot be a daily sacrifice without a Temple. This is a cross reference to what the Apostle Paul spoke about in 2 Thessalonians:

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
(2 Thess. 2:2-4 KJV)

These things are future and yet to be fulfilled, but they will come to pass. The Holy Bible says so. Believe it!

The entire theme of the Holy Bible is about the battle over a Kingdom and the rightful ruler of that Kingdom. This controversy goes back long before Abraham and long before Adam's day. It began sometime after the Lord first created the heavens and the Earth. Lucifer (Satan) was the first ruler in the Kingdom of Heaven in the ancient past:

Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(Ezekiel 28:14-15 KJV)

When he rebelled and sinned against God, unrighteousness was introduced into the physical realm and death came upon the ancient world.

Remember, the story of the whole Bible from the very beginning until the end is about the spiritual battle for the Kingdom. The eventual triumphant ruler of that Kingdom, both in the literal world and over the spiritual forces, will be the KING of KINGS; the Lord Jesus Christ. The Son of the Living God of Israel, who first came as a Lamb, but is soon coming as the Lion of Judah.

Hello destinysweet,

Way back on p3 (I think), I said this, which may have been misunderstood by both yourself and any others reading. I had kind of assumed (never a good plan!) many people have followed previous threads, and would know to what I referred. But I didn't enlighten you fully, for which I apologise if it has contributed to the distance between yourself and Katy here.

I would just like to express my convergence with your concerns about the separation of kingdoms, tenses and Christ's eternal roles as they are manifested in time, which Katy and I have discussed before.

To me, Christ is everything prophecy promised Him to be, already, whether we see the outworking of it on earth yet, or not. I strongly agree that the outworking is essential, and that - for instance, the cross - is a key moment in human history, which was waited upon by heaven as much as earth for its fulfilment. Likewise, Christ's return also will be a key moment in human history.

However, I believe Galatians 4:25 sets out the status quo with regard to Jerusalem below and above.

Returning, though, to your post quoting from Matthew and Luke, where Matthew has used the phrase 'kingdom of heaven' and Luke 'kingdom of God', we cannot escape from Christ's statement that 'the kingdom of God is within you'.

Thus, believers experience both the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven simulataneously.

So, to separate these kingdoms, in my view, requires this change of perspective: that a person in whom the kingdom of God resides, who resides in the kingdom of heaven, can bring the kingdom of heaven to bear upon the outward life of those who do not yet have the kingdom of God within them, until they begin to believe.

The mighty works which Jesus did were designed to create faith in those who saw them, thus beginning to establish the kingdom of God within them.

It would require a different thread to tease this out in detail, and this was not in my mind when I wrote my previous post. I hope this doesn't add confusion to the thread, as I haven't been following it. I don't agree (for the record), that Paul preached a different revelation from that received in real time by the disciples, but, he certainly codified it for future generations in a way which makes it sound different. Walter's sentence in his last post struck right to my heart somehow, with its relevance to how believers are to live:

"The resurrection life of Jesus is imparted to the true believer by the presence of the Holy Spirit."

This is both the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven.

There is a simple principle at the back of my mind, namely, that if there was no difference between 'heaven' and 'God', there would be one phrase used throughout, which communicated their indivisibility. But, the very fact that we have it written as we do - the [i]promise[/i] (the kingdom of heaven) and the [i]outworked fact[/i] (the kingdom of God), we are forced to seek God for understanding of the difference He intends us to apprehend.

It occurred to me to compare the verses you offered in your post on p7, and to comment on them one by one, but it would have been unweildy. Suffice for this suggestion, that, to the poor in spirit, there is [i]no bar[/i] to the kingdom of God being established within them. That's what Luke meant by 'theirs'.

waltern wrote:
Addressed to Strider100 & Jayyou

What is a Christian believer? Is he an imitator of Jesus Christ, the Son of God? Is there any way that the Christian, through the power of his will, can keep the law? The Sermon on the Mount clarifies that question in the negative. It is not possible to go through this life sinless as Christ did. Christ tells us that if we even look upon a woman in lust, we are guilty of the sin of adultery. Today, with the way that women are dressed can any man honestly say that he has never lusted after a woman? Go down the list in Matthew 5:20-48 and honestly tell me that you are not guilty, by thought or deed, of any of the sins mentioned.

God's standard is- if you break one law, you have broken them all, and are on your way to hell and damnation.

[b]Actually, the Christian believer lives a different life. He/She never has to imitate Christ, ever![/b]

The Christian life is an [b]Exchanged Life:[/b]

When you became a Christian a great exchange took place. Jesus Christ took your place, and died for you on the cross. All of your sins were placed upon Jesus Christ, and He died in your stead. In that great transaction Christ got all your sins and guilt, and you received His righteousness as your eternal position in Christ.

The Apostle Paul expressed this great spiritual principle in the following words. "He (God) made Him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (II Corinthians 5:21).

The Apostle Peter made the same emphasis when he wrote the following. "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit" (II Peter 3:18). Then he goes on to say Christ "bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed" (I Peter 2:24). The sinless one died for the sinner.

[b]THE PERSON OF THE EXCHANGED LIFE
Christ wants to live His life through us.[/b]

It is only the life of Christ––His activity, clothed with you and displayed through you, that ultimately will find the approval of God. The Lord Jesus alone makes our sacrifices acceptable to God.

Only what Christ does in you and through you merits God's approval. That is probably the hardest truth to learn in the Christian life. Jesus said to His disciples: "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

[b]It is not what I do for God[/b]

We want to do it ourselves. We want to do it our way. We want to do it the way we think best. We want to get the credit. Now that we are saved we think we can do it all in our own human strength. We even try to conduct His work in our fleshly, sinful nature. God will have nothing of it.

God will accept nothing less than His way! A lot that we have done in the name of Jesus is going to burn up because we have done it in the power and motives of the flesh.
The Apostle Paul says:
"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire" (I Cor. 3:10-15).

[color=FF0000][b]There is a form of Christian activity that is all right for immediate consumption. It impresses everybody. It will draw a crowd. It will get the applause. However, it will always leave a STENCH behind it if it stems from the FLESH! It is self-activity! It makes the flesh smell great. It will always produce a kind of fruit that drops, premature and immature, to ROT ON THE GROUND. It WILL NEVER REPRODUCE THE FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. [/color][/b]

[b]THE POWER OF THE EXCHANGED LIFE
The exchanged life is a life of faith. [/b]
Can any situation possibly arise, in any circumstances, for which Christ is not adequate? Can there arise any pressure, or promise, or any problem, or any responsibility for which the Lord Jesus Himself is not adequate?

When I realize the total adequacy of Christ in me is there any situation for which He is not adequate? If there is any situation in which Christ is inadequate then it is a clear indication that I am not in the will of God.
Christ is limited only by the measure of our availability to all that He makes available to us.

[b]The exchanged life is a Spirit-controlled life.[/b]

Since the exchanged life is a walk of faith, it must be a life that is filled or controlled by the Holy Spirit.

When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are allowing the Holy Spirit to occupy the whole of our personality with the all sufficiency of Christ.

Jesus said, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:38-39).

When I am under the influence of the Holy Spirit, I draw upon the unlimited resources of Christ. The resurrection life of Jesus is imparted to the true believer by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

"Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me" (Gal. 2:20b). That is what it means to live the Spirit-filled life.

Many years ago I heard the Argentine evangelist, Santiago Garaballe, give an illustration of a man who bought a new car. He had never owned a car in his life. The car came with a powerful engine under the hood. What if the man then spent the rest of his life pushing it around! Come on family let's go for a ride! Can you imagine what a life that would be like? Every time he would get into the car someone would have to guide the steering wheel, and someone else would have to start pushing it! What if someone came to him and said, "Jose, why are you always pushing that car? Don't you have any gas in it?"

"Why, yes," said Jose. "It came with a full tank of gas. But I didn't know what to do with it."

"Here, let me show you Jose. Put your keys in here and turn on the ignition. Man, hear that engine purr ... Now there is real power! Come on let's go for a ride."

[b]In the Christian life you have a powerful engine under the hood––nothing less than the resurrection life of Christ made available to you through the person of God the Holy Spirit who lives within you. Stop pushing! Switch on the power! Expose every temptation, every opportunity, every hill of circumstance, every threatening situation to the divine energy of Christ in you. [/b]

How wonderful it is to be in such an intimate, personal love relationship with God that everything you need, for any circumstance, is always yours, by the hand of God upon you!

Sincerely,

Walter

And only He can give that faith!

Tha's what took me so many years to even begin to understand, let alone enter into! But it is the beginning to understanding the real meaning of the Sabbath, and how to keep it. We can't come to this of our own decision and strength, or even by resting and rejoicing in God on a day of the week.

But Christ in us does the work - if we let Him!

in Him

Jeannette

While Jesus, when born, left Glory, born of a Virgin, was not at that time Glorified.

(We see Paul, after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, refer to His Glory, as a light so bright it blinded him)

Jesus prays in John 17, before going to the Cross...Glorify me with the Glory I had with thee BEFORE the foundation of the world.

No, This must happen first before the Glorified Christ returns and takes dominion of the Kingdoms of satan, setting up HIS Kingdom on earth.

It’s the Lord Himself who will consume with the Spirit of HIS mouth and the Brightness ( Glory) of His Coming.

Those In Christ, are going to be Glorified TOGETHER with Christ at His return. When Jesus returns He will be executing Judgement/Wrath upon this wicked evil world, called this present evil age.....

However those during this present evil age PAul says:

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Is the Kingdom of Heaven/ or Earthly Kingdom NOW in operation?

I do believe satan still holds the power over the earth, until the return of Jesus Christ in ALL His Glory overthrows the Mountains/Kingdoms spoken of in Revelation.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

It appears according to this satan is till in Control here. The Victory is certainly won, as it is finished! However, the fulfillment is yet to come.

Remember, the story of the whole Bible from the very beginning until the end is about the spiritual battle for the Kingdom. The eventual triumphant ruler of that Kingdom, both in the literal world and over the spiritual forces, will be the KING of KINGS; the Lord Jesus Christ. The Son of the Living God of Israel, who first came as a Lamb, but is soon coming as the Lion of Judah.

Genesis 3:15 is yet to come to completion.

His head was brused at Calvary, yet satan still roams around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. No Satan is not bound now, Paul says He is walking around......Paul preached AFTER the Resurrection fo Jesus Christ. So the Resurrection of Jesus Christ did not bind satan.

AND:

**Death** and Hades have not YET been thrown into the Lake of Fire. We have no power or authority at this time to do this. This will come AFTER the 1000 years of Perfect peace and REST upon the earth. The Church isn't going to bring that in, Jesus Christ...King of Kings and Lord of Lords will have that Honor! [u][b]He won that Honor at Calvary! [/b][/u]

Katy

I so love how Paul put these events in order.

Look at these verses very closely.

(1) 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;

(2)afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Delivered up the Kingdom **TO* God.....is this the Kingdom OF God or the Kingdom of Heaven. How can the Kingdom that is within you be delivered up to God, if those Born Again # (2) are all ready with Christ at His Coming.

Paul tells us that those In Christ NOW are Hidden with God in Christ. We are all ready in the Father....

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

(This is The earthly Kingdom Reign of Jesus Christ when YES HE will have ALL rule and ALL authority over the earth for 1000 years clearly stated 6 times in Revelation)

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

[u][i][b]28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. [/b][/i][/u]

The Final all in all, the fulfillment of all promises.

Katy

I was also given a Rhema word(Spoken)w/a vision that I am encouraged to share along with more scripture as He spoke it to me in regards to this theory you and Christinyou have proposed.

Sis Des, you weren't here last year when we had a discussion with the Moderators about posting dreams, visions and prophecies on here.

I thought you should know - that it is not encouraged.

We're discussing theology here and we do not base our theology on visions, dreams or prophecies.

There are other Forums out there for such things.

If you want the address of one - I'm sure someone here could recommend one of the safer sites for such things.

If we all start posting these type 'experiences' on here - in a short order - there will be total bedlam here.

It's not that we don't believe such things happen - this is not the place to open that door - for the reasons that should be obvious, of what it would attract.

thanks for your understanding.

with His Love.

Dear Little Gift,

You asked, quote: [i]"Surely it's obvious that here is something greater even than the seventh day Sabbath; into which the Lord is inviting us, indeed commanding us to enter?"[/i]

Little Gift, my question to you would be: [i]"Surely it is obvious that the rest that the LORD is commanding us to enter, is HIS rest which comes to us when we come to HIM through HIS Son, and find rest and peace for our souls? [u]Why would keeping the 7th day weekly Sabbath take away from that rest?[/u][/i] In my experience it only [i]compliments[/i] it! Remember that having a peaceful day set-apart unto the LORD is very restful and an absolute delight--------Not work at all! :-)

Also note how in that passage that those who [u][i]failed to enter HIS rest[/i] did so because of [b]"rebellion[/b], not knowning HIS ways, hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, disobedience, unbelief"[/u] (excerpts from that passage of scripture).

We are exhorted to [i]"strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of [u]disobedience[/u][/i]. What [i]disobedience[/i] is that passage speaking about?
It is the [u]'rebellion'[/u], detailed in Deut 6:16:
[u]You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah.
You shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he has commanded you.
And you shall do what is right and good in the sight of the LORD, that it may go well with you, and that you may go in and take possession of the good land which the LORD swore to give to your fathers".[/u]

Did they enter that land? No. Because of disobedience and unbelief. We are warned not to fall into that same sin. Keeping the 7th day Sabbath is not part of disobedience, unbelief or sin......it is the opposite!

part 2 on same passage of scripture.....coming up...

Conclusion to discussion on Hebrews 3+4 raised by Jeannette:

Throughout Hebrews 3:7-4:10, the word 'rest' (katapausis-reposing down, that is, rest) is a different word from the one in 4:9 (sabbatismos). In chapter 4:9, "Sabbatismos" StrongsG4520
- From a derivative of (G4521; sabbaton) a “sabbatism” The KJV margin notes on Hebrews 4:9, reads ( or, keeping of a sabbath ). This is a reference to the weekly Sabbath (Sabbath rest, observance, keeping of). [u]There still remains a weekly Sabbath for the people of God.[/u].

This term “Sabbatismos” express both our spiritual rest and the Sabbath-keeping which memorializes the same.

[u]This weekly Sabbath is a shadow, a foretaste of the Sabbath which is to come.[/u] It also points back to the Creation week, a weekly witness to the world that there is a Creator, who sanctified the 7th day after creation.
We are still living in the 6th Day, the day of work, the day of preparation, while we await the glorious return of King Yehoshua, who will set up His Millennial Kingdom for a thousand year reign (7th day) from Jerusalem. Satan will be bound, and justice and righteousness restored.

Right now we work 6 days a week at our jobs, in our homes, shopping, travelling, cleaning, cooking, gardening, children's activities etc. The LORD gave us the Sabbath day to come apart, to take a break from all that. To stop. To cease. To be blessed!

My questions would be:
*Why do you believe that one is working when resting? *Why do you believe that one has not entered into HIS rest, who seeks to obey HIS commands? *Why do you say that there is a veil over the eyes of those who remember the Sabbath day? *Why do you ask if they are bewitched when keeping the 7th day Sabbath? It has been clearly stated that no one keeps the 4th commandment in order to [i]obtain salvation.[/i]

~Why does Rev 14 speak about a call for the endurance of the saints----[u][i]"those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Yeshua"[/i][/u]?~

~Why do we see in Rev 15 [u][i]'those who have conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, singing the Song of Moses, the servant of God, AND the Song of the Lamb?[/i][/u].

.....the answer: [b]'because Faith without Works is DEAD'[/b].

Blessings to all as we ponder these things,
Stephen

(from the land of ice and snow!)

I'd rather 'ponder' The Deity of Christ !

Did they enter that land? No. Because of disobedience and unbelief. We are warned not to fall into that same sin. Keeping the 7th day Sabbath is not part of disobedience, unbelief or sin......it is the opposite!

Strider, that is a most interesting way of stating.

We know entering the Land had absoutely NOTHING to do with Keeping the Law.

If it were of Law, then Moses would have entered, and brought the Children in.

(Just one of those Hidden Gems of Truth)

Do you know it wasn't until AFTER they crossed over that they stopped and ALL were Circumcised, again, obedience to circumcision didn't give them access to the land either.

Both Circumcision and the Sabbath were SIGNS of the Covenant given to Israel.

It was Promised to Abraham...400 years before the Law of Moses. A promise is a promise. God cannot lie. It was theirs.

We read from Paul in Corinthians what happened called the day of provovcation...still nothing to do with Law, or sabbath keeping or any of that.

It was out of sheer moaning and groaning all along the way.

When they got to the border to enter in.....they said..

WE CAN"T GO IN THERE,THERE ARE GIANTS IN THE LAND.

Here we see, they lacked one thing....faith in God's Promise. They simply did not believe God...period.

Katy

However what FAITH is not of the Law.

Katy said

However what FAITH is not of the Law.

Romans 3: 27
Where [i]is[/i] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but [u]by the law of faith[/u].

:-D Amen.

Strider said

This is a reference to the weekly Sabbath... [u]There still remains a weekly Sabbath for the people of God[/u]

Furthermore, if you're [i]only[/i] keeping a [u]weekly[/u] sabbath, you are failing on the six other days you're [i]supposed[/i] to be keeping it, under the terms of the New Covenant.

Hi Annie :-)

I've taken a few minutes to hammer out a post here addressing your point to Des, because I [i]was[/i] here, and the mods didn't lock or even comment, in a number of threads where dreams [i]were posted[/i]. I hope you won't take offence at my laying these things out for all to follow my thinking. Partly, I'm aware that as the whole body functions in love toward one another, different gifts and graces will be manifest, and there are those who are not here so much to discuss theology, as to minister - as you yourself do many times - in what God gives us to write as we share our hearts with one another, and the world.

I myself had quite a moment of revelation, when I finally grasped what Mike Balog has been trying to communicate (generally), for many months about the difficulty of accepting [u]prophecy[/u] (in written words) in any thread on SI - that simply, [i]this is not the setting for it[/i].

You said

We're discussing theology here and we do not base our theology on visions, dreams or prophecies.

However, the question must be raised as to whether when God communicates, it could ever be with a word\\picture [i]which [u]could not[/u] be shared with others.[/i] To some extent, the share-ability of a dream or vision, is a safety mechanism, which is helpful to the person who received it, as a reassurance it [i]is[/i] from the Lord. I do not suggest that these should be shared publicly within a church setting, as if they are 'a word for the church'.

But it occurs to me now, in the context of any discussion about God speaking to individuals, that while you and I don't have to take a vision given to Des for [i]her[/i] personal guidance as a child of God, from her Father, [i]as if He had given it to us[/i] - she [i]does[/i]. This is a simple rule.

When God chooses this route, it is still important for the person who receives it, to take it seriously. This is part of how they function as a member of the body. They can't pick and choose from God's word to them by that route, any more than one can discard a verse, or what God has said [i]through scripture[/i].

I'm really hazy as to what it is about visions or dreams, which upsets people who otherwise would be happy to announce that [u]God[/u] had given them His word on a matter, while they were [i]praying[/i]. It's not as if someone (here) has expected to be given credence for what they received through [u]any[/u] practice which is [u]dis[/u]allowed in scripture.

posting dreams, visions and prophecies on here... is not encouraged

Candidly, I'm relieved that it's becoming more acceptable to share [i]here[/i] what really goes on in our relationships with God, than that we are genuinely being asked [u]not[/u] to state or [u]not[/u] to [i]own up[/i] to the pentecostal working of His life in us - [i]while at the same time we are supposed to be craving it[/i]. I have found that somewhat confusing!

Praise God that He joins us in the Spirit to whom He will, regardless of whether we meet online first, or face-to-face. Let's strengthen what remains. Let's admit from one another the ministry of the Spirit, that through edification of itself in love, the body of Christ may grow. (Eph 4:16)

8-)

I still love ya Sis Dorcas. :-D

I just agree that "this is not the setting" - though I'd use different wording - as I did in my initial post to it.

One would have to go through Every one posted and "test all things". I feel I've done that and others have too - and it proves all the more - that this is not the setting - nor is it a proof of a 'doctrine'.

Thanks for your opinion, stated so lovingly though. Amen ! 8-)

quote:
[i]Did they enter that land? No. Because of disobedience and unbelief. We are warned not to fall into that same sin. Keeping the 7th day Sabbath is not part of disobedience, unbelief or sin......it is the opposite!

----------------

Strider, that is a most interesting way of stating.
We know entering the Land had absoutely NOTHING to do with Keeping the Law[/i].
_______________________________________________

Dear Katy,

I was simply quoting the Scripture there, Katy. The writer is using the example of the Israelites not entering the Promised Land (their 'rest' (katapausis-reposing down, that is, rest), because of disobedience and unbelief, as an example and warning to us. Let me post that it greater context: (my emphasis)

From Hebrews 3+4:
“Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”  Who were they that heard and yet were [b]rebellious[/b]? Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses?  And with whom was he provoked forty years? Was it not with those who [b]sinned[/b], whose bodies fell in the wilderness?  [u]And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were DISOBEDIENT?[/u]  So we see that they were unable to enter because of [b]unbelief"[/b].

"Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news [u]failed to enter because of DISOBEDIENCE"[/u].

"Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that [u]no one fall by the same sort of DISOBEDIENCE[/u].

_______________________________________________

"[b]TODAY IF YOU WILL HEAR MY VOICE
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEART AS IN REBELLION'[/b]

Three times the author repeats this phrase: (3:8. 3:15, 4:7)

Another verse says the same thing only with different words. Heb 3:13 "Exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest anyone be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

What actually was it that brought upon Israel the decree that they would not enter the land of promise? It was rebellion! They were on the borders of Canaan, eagerly anticipating a rest from their wilderness wanderings. But they had no faith; rebellion and disobedience were in their hearts.

They could have entered that rest, back then! but...

And God said, "Because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten time, and have not listened to my voice, they will certainly not see the land which I promised to their fathers." ( Numbers 14: 22 ) Caleb, who 'had a different spirit, and followed the LORD fully', was able to enter in.

If we harden our hearts with the deceitfulness of sin (breaking God's commandments) we will not enter into God's rest.

Isaiah 57.20-21 "But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked."

_______________________________________________

Romans 3: 27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The only Law of faith there is tht I'm aware of is Faith that works through Love.

So I would say this Law of Faith is by the Love of God who has been shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit...Romans 5....going more in depth in 1st John.

" However what faith is not of the Law" was a typo, should say, **That** Faith was not by the Law of Moses, as that Promise to enter the Land was given 400 years before the Law. The Land was not promised to Moses, but Abraham. God used Moses to bring them out of bondage to the Promise land, and at that time established the Law.

Before the Law of Moses Romans 5 states sin was not imputed to man, however man through Adams sin died and lost that perfect rest they had in the Garden.

As in Adam all die, as In Christ all will be made alive ((those who receive Him that is)).

Those who have been made alive In Christ will enter His rest.

Interesting in Revelation...those who worship the beast have no REST ***day or night**..speaking of eternal. ( Is not speaking of a weekly one day rest out of the week).

Interesting it doesn't say as many SDA's believe that WE who do not keep the weekly Sabbath are followers of anti-christ. A very different understanding of scripture.

I bet not many knew this.

If SDA's or sabbath-keepers only keep one day a week their Sabbath Rest, are they WORKING the other 6?

Joshua is a type of shaddow of Our rest In Christ.

Joshua represents Jesus, who goes before, just as He did at Calvary. It was the Lord who went before and drove out their enemies. Just as Christ went before, and only through HIM do we have VICTORY.

The Jordan represents the Cross and our identification with Christ at Calvary. It's a most wonderful parallel to Ephesians.

We are called to our HIGH calling In Christ Jesus...above powers and principalities. We overcome In Christ these powers and principlities.

RE: Children know their sins are forgiven,

Young men have **overcome** the evil one.

Fathers.......

All Faith that works through Love...the Law of LOVE, being made perfect in LOVE. Perfect is that of 7, Rest means 7, Complete means 7.

Your either a 777 in Christ or a 666.....still trying in and of yourself as Cain...a man of the earth.

Justification= Christ Alone=7
Sanctification= Christ Alone=7
Glorification= Christ alone=7

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:12
And the law is not of faith:

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Where is boasting then! :-)

Let those who boast, boast in the Lord!

Katy

In a post addressed by Waltern to Strider (myself;-)) and Jayyou,

Waltern said, quote:
[i][color=660000]"There is a form of Christian activity that is all right for immediate consumption. It impresses everybody. It will draw a crowd. It will get the applause. However, it will always leave a STENCH behind it if it stems from the FLESH! It is self-activity! It makes the flesh smell great. It will always produce a kind of fruit that drops, premature and immature, to ROT ON THE GROUND. It WILL NEVER REPRODUCE THE FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT".[/color][/i]
________________________________________________

Dear Waltern,

Let us be clear here. Sabbath-keeping (keeping the commandments of God) is certainly not something that "draws a crowd" or "impresses everybody". Where is the applause? Do you hear the applause, Walter? All I hear is opposition and accusations ranging from unsaved, bewitched, cultist......all cloaked in the obsequious language of 'praying for their salvation, that the veil be removed'!

~The STENCH, dear Walter, comes from those within Constantinian Christianity who have always persecuted the saints who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Yeshua.~

Walter, their blood cries out! The fruit of the great Harlot and her (30 000+?) daughters is evident to anyone who reads the history. Do you think it fair to cloak 'sabbath-keepers' in this mantle of 'fear and loathing', this 'rotten fruit' type language?

[color=660000][u]“Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law strive against them.” - Proverbs 28:4[/u][/color]

Stephen.

Dorcas:
Quote:

This is a reference to the weekly Sabbath... There still remains a weekly Sabbath for the people of God
------------------------------------------------

I'm wondering if you've ever read Leviticus 23, brother? Sabbaths aren't 'weekly', there.

Furthermore, if you're only keeping a weekly sabbath, you are failing on the six other days you're supposed to be keeping it, under the terms of the New Covenant.
_________________________________________________

[color=000099]Dear Dorcas,

It is a pleasure to speak with you. (I enjoy your posts, and yes, you do have an "Irenic" spirit. ;-)

Moving on.....

By 'weekly Sabbath' I mean the 7th day Sabbath as instituted and sanctified by our Father in the 7 day Creation, and given as a perpetual sign to HIS people.

Dorcas, I have read Leviticus 23. There are other sabbaths spoken of in regard to the Feasts of the LORD. eg during Feast of Unleavened Bread, Shavuot, Sukkot. However, the subject at hand is the 7th day Sabbath. (the Feasts would probably need another thread!).

Keeping the 7th day Sabbath [u]in no way[/u] negates resting in the accomplishments of Yeshua (Jesus). It only compliments it!

..............The terms of the New Covenant that you mentioned............

The LORD declares in Jeremiah, and it is also quoted in Hebrews 8:

Jer31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD , "when I will make [u]a new covenant[/u] with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD .
33 "[u]This is the covenant [/u]I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD .
[u][b]"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people[/b][/u].
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD . "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

and

Eze. 36:26 [u]I" will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh[/u]. 27 And [u]I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws".[/u]

So I do believe that we know we are living in the new covenant through the sacrifice of Jesus, when, according to YHWH, our Father, we find HIS laws written on our heart, and HIS Spirit within us, that causes us to 'run in HIS ways', as David said!

So in terms of the New Covenant, the 7th day Sabbath is written on our hearts. along with the other commandments of our Father. HE did not say that HE would write 'new laws' on our hearts, which do away with His commandments. The Holy Spirit causes us to walk in HIS ways. There is no striving, no work, just exceeding great joy and purpose, soaring like the eagles! All praise to HIM, through HIS dear Son, our Lord!

Stephen[/color]

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Those who would not enter in doubted God...and this was the SIN of disobedience spoken of here.

Katy

Waltern is new here. I would like him to know that what is going on here is not representitve of the beliefs of this Website. In case there are other newcomers or lurkers here.

First off - when someone does not believe in the Deity of Christ - my ears are shut. No other foundation can be laid. All else preached from that false concept of our God and Savior is dross. That is my conviction and I believe that of the Word's. To give false doctrines a chance is one thing - for the sake of helping those believing them - but when the chance that others may become confused is at stake - "the young or vulnerble" in Christ - Paul's line should be drawn. This is not a "sport" - like ping-pong.
There are as many dangers to this as what Paul faced on a daily basis and the cause of All of his persecutions.....

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

why was God so severe with moses?

Because Moses represented the LAW of SIN and Death.

Joshua, a Type of Christ represents eternal Life.

The Land is a type of what Eternal life is...that only can come through GRACE by Faith....not the Law and Grace.

God knew what He was doing by not having Moses bring them in. If that had been so, we would always be confused ..Is it Law...or is it Grace through Faith? You say both....I say not.

Jayyou would you clarify the following: Is this true?

After what Anne Posted, I looked this up.

Most Christians are amazed to learn that SDA teaches that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, but Ellen G. White said He was Michael, so if they changed this, they'd need to reject her as "the spirit of prophecy" and they'd not be the remnant church! So now they hold He's both God the Son, and Michael. In fact, Ellen G. White DENIED the deity of Jesus, who in 1903 said, “The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty” (ms 140, SDA Commentary V, p. 1129).

It makes a great difference "who" Jesus really is, for 2nd Corinthians 11:4 warned there'd be those who'd teach another Jesus, preach a different gospel, and have another spirit. These marks identify cults, who invariably attack the Doctrine of Christ. Early SDA's denied Jesus' deity saying He was only an archangel. Their Commentary, volume 5, pg. 1129, cites Ellen White as saying...

"The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty." -Ellen G. White (1903, ms 150, SDA
Commentary V, p. 1129)

John 1:1-3,14; 10:33; 1st Timothy 2:5; 3:16; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 7:4; Revelation 1:8; 15:3, 16:5-7; and 17:14--all show that Jesus is Almighty God. The REAL Jesus is the God-man Christ Jesus. He was never an Archangel! He's not God-angel-man. Clearly, SDA's have a different Jesus, a false Jesus. It is important to note that Jehovah's Witnesses teach the same false doctrine, that Jesus is Michael. As with JW's, SDA's believe that Jesus is God; BUT, not Almighty God, clearly evidenced by Ellen G. White's statement above.

Jayyou, this may be the reason we cannot come to an understanding here.

Those who have entered into His Rest have entered into Jesus Christ...Almighty God.

Colossians 3 state we are hidden with God in Christ Jesus. We are eternal and have eternal life In Christ. That **eternal** has no beginning of days or end of days.

We've passed with Christ into the Heavenlies, and are seated with Him in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus as we speak.

Grace is a GIFT by faith, not of works of any kind.

We are HIS workmanship! Our souls are kept in Perfect Peace perfect rest In Christ.

Katy

PS, However concerning Moses, you do see him standing with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration don't you? What an Honor that must have been and to come! Moses didn't die in his sin in the wilderness. Moses you will see also in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11.

WOW, that was written during the Church Age, and no mention there of anything as is mentioned of Esau. ;-)

Strider said

HE did not say that HE would write 'new laws' on our hearts, which do away with His commandments.

It is [u]not possible[/u] to live and walk in the Spirit and not fulfil the law as He desires, whether one observes a sabbath regularly or not.

But, you strongly imply that those who do not observe a sabbath are missing the mark you believe scripture sets; whereas one is missing this particular mark, only if one believes one should be keeping a sabbath and one is not.

Or, one misses a mark if one is keeping a sabbath rather than obeying some other instruction from Father, which supersedes it.

Yes, a lot of freedom has been extended here of late for now countless "visions" - but what I brought up on pg 8 was the plan to prove to Katy a belief that was being debated "based upon a vision".

It is up to the Moderators how many "visions" will be permitted, but on a thread like this on "doctrine" - I stand by that doctrine is never proven by visions.

That was the main point and I meant no one any harm, but for the Integrity of His Word standing alone in the formation of doctrinal beliefs.

Thanks guys.

Annie said

I stand by that doctrine is never proven by visions

Thank you for explaining that angle more clearly for me. :-)

Meant to say "Welcome Walter" in my last long post.

"Welcome Walter."

psalm1 wrote:
almost the whole of the new testament is "understood" through revelation or enlightenment.

Look at the doctrinal experts of Paul's day,the Jewish religious leaders absolutely did not have a clue!

Jesus spoke in parables and the "experts" were baffled. But he explained the parables to his flock. (revelation)
The only thing lacking in the body today is the office of Paul.

Paul decided what was from heaven.

Without this unity of spirit one mans vision can override another mans vision.
Both claim to be from God.

I believe God can and will confirm his word.

If a vision is from Him It usually is burned so deep into the person that 10 years later it is still fresh in that believer.

David

Brother - Even 100 years later - there are still cults to this day that were based upon "visions".

I won't list them here - but I'm sure you've heard of them.

Paul was annoited by GOD to "write" our N.T. - I can have a 1000 visions, but I will spend years to prove them out by the word and still never share with anyone the vision - but only the Word of GOD that I've researched that proves a belief.

I'm very pentecostal - that's why I'm so "discernment" minded.

If someone's "visions" don't line up with their behavior - I sincerely doubt their visions.
That's test number one of claiming to have been in the very presence of Jesus.

Test two - how much attention is drawn to self.

Test three - but not necessarily in the order it's been placed is - The WORD.
Does it line up with The WORD.

Just three quick tests there.

Glad to see you back btw.

His Love.

[i]HE did not say that HE would write 'new laws' on our hearts, which do away with His commandments.
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Dorcas quote: How you are playing with words here, is a very serious matter, because your doctrine requires works to be added to faith, which is an [u]abomination[/u] to God, and which may lead some astray from the pure faith which God requires.[/i]
______________________________________________

There are many [b]abominations[/b] mentioned in scripture: homosexuality, eating swine and unclean food, sacrificing of children to other gods, making graven images, false balances, etc etc. Obeying the commandments of God because of faith in Jesus is NOT one of them. Or maybe [i]you[/i] are playing with words?

James 2: 18-26 But some one will say, [b]"You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith[/b].
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.
[b] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?[/b]
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that [b]faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,[/b]
and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "[b]Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness[/b]"; and he was called the friend of God.
You see that [b]a man is justified by works and not by faith alone[/b].
And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so [b]faith apart from works is dead.[/b]

Jesus strongly implied that we are missing the mark (the mark is the Torah) by [u]teaching others to relax (let alone abolish) the least of the commandments[/u] of God. In fact, He said that we are to do all that those who sit on Moses' seat (scribes and Pharisees) say for us to do. We are not to do what they do, however, as they say, but [u]they do not do[/u]. That is part of the true faith that God requires, and was taught us by our Lord Jesus!

Do you perhaps also believe in the 2 Gospels as explained to us by 'Christinyou'. quote: [i]"Gospel of Christ for Israel and The Gospel of Christ given to Paul for the Body of Christ the Church"[/i]
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Dear Strider,

I think you know very well that the works of the law - which commended to us our death-worthiness - are not the works to which James refers.

Our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, and the more we attempt those unkeepable commands the more we show our lack of faith in Christ.

The expositions Jesus gave before His death, are superseded by those He gave after His resurrection, which the apostles relayed to us.

Hello Strider,

This is a ps to my last post. I hope you take v 13 especially to heart.

Romans 14
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [i]alike[/i]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [i]it[/i] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [i]it[/i]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

12 So then every one of us shall give account [u]of himself[/u] to God.

13 [u]Let us not[/u] therefore [u]judge one another[/u] any more: [b]but judge this rather[/b], [u]that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in[/u] [i]his[/i] [u]brother's way[/u].

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [i]there is[/i] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [i]it is[/i] unclean.

crsschk wrote:
Read back a number of pages here, saw the accusations going back and forth ... it would be far too tedious to attempt to point out where the combatants are going astray as towards conduct.

Please read through the posts regarding matters of conduct here again, even if you have before;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=13&4164]Welcome and Intro[/url]

Admittedly, some of us (myself included) did overstep the bounds earlier in this thread. It is easy to forget that "our wrestling is not against flesh and blood".

Indeed, at one point, I almost retired, wounded and heart-weary, from this particular debate. It took a few days to recover fully. As you know, I do sometimes have an unfortunate way of stirring up opposition, instead of leaving well alone, and sometimes pay quite dearly for it!

Yet, as the thread has gone on, much has been gained. I often find that the result of debating on an issue isn't so much who "wins", (usually nobody!) but in examining afresh what we believe and why. Which has to be healthy.

Also, to me even more important, there is often opportunity to gradually get to know another person through that discussion and debate. Someone may come over as harsh - even frankly nasty at first; or they may come over as sweet and lovely. But appearances may be deceptive both ways.

For example, I have gained quite a lot of respect for "Strider", after our initial shaky beginning.

However, denial of the deity of Christ isn't to be tolerated, though there may still be room for discussion on the Sabbath.

In Him

Jeannette

Jayyou, in reading your post here with the scriptures you feel back up that Jesus is indeed Michael the Arc Angel, I would like to ask you to read what Hebrews Chapter 1 says most clearly.

I do appreciate your honesty in explaining your beliefs, and rather then accuse I came to ask if this were true, and I do appreciate you did not take this as an attack on you or anyone.

It is important that many of these issues are first placed on the table, so we can discern where our differences are.

One thing I know Jayyou, Angels do not have BLOOD, therefore no angel could have shed his blood for our sin.

I also know too, that during the time of Noah, it may be possible that Angels did inter-marry with humans. There are two theories about this time of who these sons of god were that married the daughters of men. I don't know this for a fact, but if true, this is why God sent the flood, because angels may have overstepped to corrupt mankind.

I have looked at the scriptures you have placed here in your argument for Jesus being Michael, however Michael arguing with Lucifer over Moses would not be something strange.

Lucifer was the Highest Arc Angel, possibly Michael right by his side in command.

Lucifer wanted to be GOD, and fell into rebellion bringing sin into the Universe, then further corrupting mankind.

I posted scripture where Lucifer/Satan having *now* from the fall, dominion over the Kingdoms, offering these Kingdoms to Jesus if Jesus would bow down and worship him. This was during Jesus 40 days in the wilderness.

During Revelation we see many angels who war with the fallen angels over the Kingdoms/Mountains as described in Revelation.
ADDED:[u][i][b][color=663333] called powers and principalities.

Again , we are told we don't fight against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities.[/color][/b][/i][/u]

I imagine Michael, now God's Highest in command ( of the angelic world...called ministering Spirits...and God's messengers, as they have always been in the OT, doing battle in the supernatural sphere, as is spoken in Daniel.

Please read these scriptures.

Hebrews 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus at Calvary won victory over death, and will ultimately win victory over satan and the kingdoms of this world now in his hands...when the Kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Now maybe you can understand how all of these posts I have made actually DO fit into this conversation.

Katy

Hi Katy,

I know there is theory which to which you alluded here

I also know too, that during the time of Noah, it may be possible that Angels did inter-marry with humans. There are two theories about this time of who these sons of god were that married the daughters of men. I don't know this for a fact, but if true, this is why God sent the flood, because angels may have oversteppped to corrupt mankind.

I believe that the phrase 'sons of God' refers to the knowledge they had that Adam had been made by God, and like God (Luke 3:38), and 'daughters of men' is an acknowledgement that Eve was taken from Adam. You will find that CS Lewis also had this understanding, though I had it for myself, before I learned that he had also interpreted it thus.

Still today, there are evil spirits which attack humans sexually, and it doesn't lead to pregnancy or the birth of strange half-breeds. This is not to say that there is no spiritual influence on sexual behaviour, or, on the development of some babies in the womb, but, they are totally human, no matter how influenced, whether by assault, or invitation.

Sorry this is pretty morbid, but we need to understand the differences; that the Son of God, the Logos, became the Word made Flesh; He was entirely pure, and while human in construction physcially, was fully begotten of God, spiritually.

I hope these points assist your ministry here.

Hi Dorcas,

I do think I agree with your theory here, because I don't believe Angels can procreate.

I think the reason behind the other theory was that fallen angels in the book of JOB were also called the sons of god. Based on that, there are two theories out there.

Thank you for sharing this.

Actually that is a great point to bring in Here.

Adam and Eve, were formed by God, and man is lower then the Angels, as spoken in Hebrews as well. That Jesus took on the form of man..or the seed of Abraham and became LOWER then the Angels. WOW Dorcas......THANKS!

Those who are In Christ are raised up together with Christ, are Now IN Christ HIGHER then the Angels.

I once heard this is why satan hates man so much anyway, because of who we are and will be at our redemption...Glorified together with Him.

Well, I do need to go, and thanks for posting what you did. :-)

So then Jayyou, are you In Christ....entered into HIS KINGDOM not of this world? You know if entering the Land is a type of being Baptized into Christ.....your theory is we must be obedient FIRST to receive salvation. I see it as a Gospel Call, and obedience is believing the Gospel That Jesus Christ Died for our sin, invites us to share in the Height, Depth, Width and Length of HIM((Ephesians 3)) The Jordan represents the Cross, and OUR obedience is our identification in Death and resurrection Life, bringing into our lives the fellowship of His sufferings...

[u][i][b]This is what people moan and groan about denying the Cross, as those who didn't go over were actually denying the Cross. That's not a pun either[/b][/i][/u]

Katy