What do you think of Replacement Theology?

Replacement Theology is rank heresy.

If you think Israel has been replaced, then read Revelation.

Krispy

Heresy, such as your not a Christian? i trust that is not what you meant.

What is heresy? A false teaching. Did I say if you believe in heresy you're not a Christian? Nope... didnt say that. Some heresies are "ranker" than most. Replacement theology is very rank.

Kinda like a skunk.

Krispy

I think most on this forum would agree that the church has not replaced Israel, mainly because, according the scripture, the church has always been in existence, even under the old covenant. There has always been a people that God has called unto himself (the church, the called out). As Paul stated, not all Israel is of Israel. Not all of the natural children of Abraham are/were the true children of Abraham...only those who have believed the promise and are reconciled to God by faith. Doesn't the new testament teach that?

So no, the church does not replace Israel, but...Christ has come and is now the fulfillment of Israel. He is the substance of all of the shadow. Doesn't Hebrews teach that?

He is the true temple.
He is the true sacrifice.
He is the passover.
He is the sabbath.
He is the true prophet, priest and king.
He is the land, the inheritance, the rest for the people of God.
It is by faith in Him that one is truly circumcised...not of the flesh, but of the heart.

All of these things, and more, defined Israel. It is what separated them from all of the other nations, and all of these things have now been fulfilled, in Christ.

So no, the church has not replaced Israel, but Christ has fulfilled all that Israel is (and remember he is a jew)

God has not forsaken Israel...look at Paul. Their salvation has come. They have recieved their inheritance (the land) and it is Christ...

Do we place Israel above our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

roaringlamb... you're a Calvinist, and most Calvinists firmly believe in Replacement Theology. I was actually expecting you or one of the other Calvinists to come on this thread and enlighten us all.

:-) You didnt disappoint me.

Problem is... just like Calvinism, I reject your replacement theology too.

But I still love ya!

Krispy

roaringlamb... you're a Calvinist, and most Calvinists firmly believe in Replacement Theology. I was actually expecting you or one of the other Calvinists to come on this thread and enlighten us all.

Krispy,

Your posts have been very disappointing lately. It seems all you can do is put lables on what people believe, judge motives, and call people names...(i.e. Calvinist)

If you wanted to refute something, it would be nice if you actually refuted the content of what someone writes instead of attacking them personally. Is what was written true? Is it error?

If you can explain your position then please do so. I, for one, do not want to believe error, so if I or someone else is wrong, then please correct us with truth, not accusation.

Your posts have been very disappointing lately. It seems all you can do is put lables on what people believe, judge motives, and call people names...(i.e. Calvinist)

Uhmm... excuse me, but roaringlamb is proudly a Calvinist. Has no problem stating such. How then am I am labeling him when he has already labeled himself?

And it is a FACT that most Calvinists adhere to Replacement Theology.

If you're interested in my reasons why I am not a follower of Replacement Theology I went in depth with it some time back... do a search and find it.

And yes, I have been hitting on Calvinism quite a bit lately because it is on the increase now more than I have ever seen it before.

Krispy

What do you think of Replacement Theology?

I am in favour of this teaching, but not in it's wording. The word "Replacement" is not a good word to use, because Paul says,

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

So for us to say that Israel has been replaced is foolishness, their in it!!!

I like the word "merge" better.

Uhmm... excuse me, but roaringlamb is proudly a Calvinist. Has no problem stating such. How then am I am labeling him when he has already labeled himself?

The point is, if you are going to be a part of a thread, then participate by actually posting some substance.

In your post you basically said, all Calvinists hold to replacement theology, Calvinists are wrong, therefore replacement theology is wrong.
(that is poor arguement)

I personally do not like to be called a Calvinist because I do not entirely hold to all five points of Calvinism, and as long as I have been a christian I have and do attend pentecostal churches.

We label everyone today, conservative, liberal, calvinist, etc. And in doing so, we automatically assume they believe thus and thus.

That kind of thinking is small and very Sean Hannity like...

If someone posts something that you do not agree with then refute what they write. If you cannot do that because you have not thought through your position, then please do not participate... for the good of the thread.

In your post you basically said, all Calvinists hold to replacement theology, Calvinists are wrong, therefore replacement theology is wrong.

This is exactly why I wont play your game. You have completely misunderstood what I said. This is not what I said at all... thats what you wanted me to say.

Therefore, I see no point in giving you what you want because I dont have enough time in the day to keep correcting your misunderstandings of my words.

As for me not adding anything of any substance to the forum... ok... uhmmm... kinda disagree with you on that one too. I think the vast majority of folks here would disagree with you on this one as well. Not everyone always agrees with my words, but this is the first time anyone has accused me of not adding any substance to the forum.

But I still love ya! And I never called you a Calvinist... I called roaringlamb a Calvinist... because he calls himself a Calvinist. See, you are only interested in putting words in my mouth. Therefore I will sit back and let you tell me what I think. okey doke? :-)

Krispy

Replacement Theology is heresy, no question about it.

The Gentiles did not replace Israel, Israel has chosen their king, Caesar. But that didn't mean they were forsaken. While she was married to Rome, Christ annulled his relationship with her by dying on the cross thus making her free and no longer called an adulterous(Romans 7:1-4). On the day of Pentecost, the promise to Abraham and to his seed was fulfilled and thousands of Jews were being saved, fulfilling that "All Israel shall be saved" prophecy, "As such that should be saved" of course.

So the Church started out with Jews NOT Gentiles, and to this very day there are Jews in the body of Christ. Today as it was yesterday, there is neither Jew or Gentiles, bond or free, for we all one in Christ Jesus our LORD.

If anyone here says that God is going to turn back to the Jews, thus making a distinction in the body of Christ, you need to correct your theology and line it up with all scripture and not with one verse.

If someone posts something that you do not agree with then refute what they write. If you cannot do that because you have not thought through your position, then please do not participate... for the good of the thread.

You must be new here... welcome to SI.

Krispy

roaringlamb... you're a Calvinist, and most Calvinists firmly believe in Replacement Theology. I was actually expecting you or one of the other Calvinists to come on this thread and enlighten us all.

Problem is... just like Calvinism, I reject your replacement theology too

Game? I am not trying to play a game, Krispy.

This is exactly what you wrote, what did I misunderstand?

Funny thing is I can find many instances on this forum where people misunderstand you, and you have to return and defend what you "actually" meant. If you posted more substance and not just one liners, then maybe we would understand you better.

The point is this. There may be individuals out there that are actually trying to think through things and establish their own beliefs. One liners and ad hominem arguments do not positively contribute to helping them do that.

ps: I never said you did not contribute substance to this "forum", I said you were not contributing substance to this thread.

Just keeping it real bro!

You must be new here... welcome to SI.

Preachparsly asked:

1st question: Biblically and historically, has the nation of Israel been restored to the land before or after repentance? AFTER

Reason:

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

2nd question: And does the modern day nation-state of Israel follow that pattern? NO

Reason: They are still in rebellion.

This is exactly what you wrote, what did I misunderstand?

Simply put, I wasnt even responding to you. I was responding to roaringlamb. Not sure how you projected my words onto yourself... I dont even know anything about you... much less your theology. (But I am guessing you're a Calvinist?)

Krispy

Krispy your a riot today.

HEY!! Watch it, brother... we've been put on notice! No more one liners!

;-)

Krispy

Is this to say we can all look forward to a healthy dose of anti-Calvinism statements to be liberally sprinkled throughout the SI forum like your KJV-only rants…I mean remarks?

Thinkest thou to be an humorist?? lol...

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:

If someone posts something that you do not agree with then refute what they write. If you cannot do that because you have not thought through your position, then please do not participate... for the good of the thread.

You must be new here... welcome to SI.

Krispy

:-P :-P 8-) ;-) :-D :-D 8-) ;-) :-P :-P

I needed a belly laugh today!!!

Thanks!

Simply put, I wasnt even responding to you. I was responding to roaringlamb. Not sure how you projected my words onto yourself... I dont even know anything about you... much less your theology. (But I am guessing you're a Calvinist?)

And yet another one of your classic responses in order to justify your immature activity on this forum.

What do I think of replacememnt theology? Not a lot!

docs wrote:
Which other nation did God sovereignly choose for a demonstration in history? What other nation has God promised to always have a abiding covenant with?

35 - "Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for light by day, and the fixed order of the moon by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The Lord of Hosts is His name."

36 - "If this fixed order departs from before Me," declares the Lord, "Then the offspring of Israel shall cease from being a nation before me forever."

37 - "Thus says the Lord, "If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done," declares the Lord." (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Preceding these verses is the Lord's promise of a new covenant to Israel and the verses above show it will last forever. So Israel was chosen as the nation through which the Lord would show His character and His soverignty through and through which Christ would come and all the families of the earth would be blessed. From this Israel Christ left and to this Israel Christ will return in the same manner that He left. How does this point to modern Israel being just another "happenstance" of history with no special standing in God's eyes? Sure Chrsit has sat down at the right hand of the Father but He's not through yet in the earhly realm of time and history.

I don't think it depends either on whether one believes Hebrews (of course I do) or whether one spiritualizes Revelation or not. There are volumes of OT prophecy concerning latter day Israel that has been spiritualized and it has disfigured the original meaning of many of these prophecies. Over spiritualizing has a disfiguring effect on portions of scripture where literal meanings are intended. Escahtology concerning Israel etc. is the only area of Bible study where this over spiritualization process is undertaken. We are taught to be as literal as possible but OT eschatology concerning Israel has been spiritualized in favor of the church when it wasn't intended to be. That's not denying there is a strong connection between the two.

Thanks, and comments welcome

:-)

However, I don't understand why replacement theology should be considered by some here as a particularly Calvinist view. There are plenty of non-Calvinists and groups who hold this view - Restoration and related groups for example - and Calvinists who don't. I never heard of replcement theology among mostly Calvinist-orientated folks when in college. In fact, I never heard it questioned that God still has a place in His plan for Israel as a nation until recent years. Except of course for the anti-semitic attitude of some in the past - including Luther and Calvin. (That's one of the things I hate in some parts of the KJV - the page headings that ascribe the whole of that which pertained to Israel to the Church!)

To be fair, I never came across folk either, until recent years, who were overboard on the pro-Israel side - Gentile Christians trying to act more Jewish than the Jews, keeping Passover, using Hebrew forms of worship, blowing the shofar etc!

Which is just as wrong as replacememnt theology, and much more silly!

Anyway, I believe that those who accept replacement theology are seriously wrong and deceived, though I do not doubt for a moment the salvation of many who hold that teaching.

in Him

Jeannette

And yet another one of your classic responses in order to justify your immature activity on this forum.

There is a difference between contending for the faith, heated debates over theology... and personal attacks, which is what your latest post on this thread is.

As stated, when I responded originally I was responding to roaringlamb... not you. But somehow you took it personally.

I apologize to you personally that I did not have enough time to go in depth on replacement theology, but believe it or not I had several other conversions going on (privately) and simply did not have time to obey your demands for depth. And at this point, everything I have to say about replacement theology has already been said on this thread.

If you have a personal issue with me, then I would recommend you send me a PM so we can discuss it. If you wish to continue your personal attacks publicly on the forum, then eventually the moderators will deal with it. But as for me, I dont have much more to say to you.

I do apologize to everyone else here that this has happened. If anyone else has a personal problem with me, you are more than welcome to PM me so we can discuss it. I am not the mean spirited person that I am being portrayed as being... but I think most of you already know that.

Krispy

"If anyone else has a personal problem with me, you are more than welcome to PM me so we can discuss it. I am not the mean spirited person that I am being portrayed as being... but I think most of you already know that."

That's right on all accounts.

~ PMs. They work well. Very well.

At the risk of overstating ... There is also a concern upon too much reliance and abuse of them. That is to say some matters, many that are presented publicly need also to be addressed the same way. My concern is that there can be a development of factions, intentional or not and more than likely the later. Don't misunderstand me, there is a place for this but we have seen where a handful can become somewhat 'like-minded' to the point where they become something in their own right exclusive and tend to gang up together from their offline discussions that others are not privy to. I am speaking about factions and we cannot have them here. There is no back door policy amongst us. Please, just keep things in a proper balance and consideration of all who participate in the forum.

Absolutely, Mike. I want to make it clear to everyone that my invite to PM w/me is only so that we can work out whatever issues anyone may have with me.

Also want to point out that PM's have been great for personal prayer requests and requests for advice on personal matters. Not that I am any great fountain of wisdom and advice, but there are times when each of us can probably find some comfort talking privately with someone without worrying that it will be "blabbed around town", as it were.

Also, again want to draw back to the matter of asking questions earnestly bereft of accusatory backdrop. Some of the comments made here towards each other are unnecessary.

Guilty... I've tossed the Calvinism comments in where perhaps it is not necessary. It is true that Replacement Theology is supported, even bolstered, by Calvinism... but I probably do need to tone down to diatribes.

Just for the record... I dont hate Calvinists. As roaringlamb can tell you, I count Calvinists as my brothers and sisters.

Thanx Mike for you wisdom and understanding. You always seem to have the right words at the right time.

Krispy

Hi Brother Lamb, glad you are hanging in there!

Excuse an attempt to answer a question you asked another, but it's a convenient jumping-off point for some comments I would like to make...

roaringlamb wrote:

Brother, many of the main points of pre-millennial eschatology are based on a presupposition that Israel is a literal nation in the view of the Epistle writers.

The epistle writers spoke mostly about "spiritual Israel" - the Church, Jew and Gentile together in Christ. That doesn't mean they weren't aware of the significance of physical Israel! Indeed Paul speaks of both.

Personally, my eschatology isn't premennial, or any-millennial at the moment, because of this difficulty in deciding which is figurative and which is literal or symbolic. Often it can be both. The millennium, whenever it actually happens, could be a literal thousand years, or a symbolic period of time that isn't necessarily a round figure, or it could be symbolic only. Same with the two witnesses; are they individuals or symbolic of the Word of God, (two tablets of the Law, "in the mouth of two witnesses let every word be established", which is "slain" by the Enemy?

And so on.

We can't necessarily assume a certain thing, especially in apocalyptic literature, is either-or, it may mean both.

Or many try to interpret Revelation by going back to Daniel and Ezekiel and then putting what it says there above what the fulfilled prophecy is...

That's what [i][u]Jesus[/u][/i] did. An important example is when He taught the two on the road to Emmaus after the Resurrection - He [i]opened their understanding[/i] to understand what the Old Testament scriptures really meant!

...Notice that there is nothing in the NT about the nation Israel being reformed and brought back into a promised land.

[color=990000] 6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, [b]will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?[/b]” 7 He said to them, [b]“It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority[/b]. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth.” [/color]

Jesus never denied that Israel would once again become a sovereign nation. He basically told the disciples to mind their own business re the timing! Then He diverted their attention to the more pressing and important thing that He wanted them to understand.

So, physical Israel is important, but teh spiritual truths are even more important!

The promised land is the New Jerusalem, and Hebrews 11 makes this plain. The folks in Hebrews 11 were not looking for a literal land.

Otherwise its like saying that because you left such and such a school in 1984, (or whenever), that means the school is of no more use, and should be pulled down!

At the moment [i][u]the Old Creation, and the physical nation of Israel are still moving "in parallel" to the New Creation in Christ[/u][/i].

Why? As a sign to the nations of God's existance and power!

Why do you think that there is still so much hatred against Jews and against Israel? Hatred that seems to be greatest and most intransigent among those that are deeply entrenched in a demonic philosophy or belief, such as Islam. I would be surprised if there was a single dictator that is or has been in the world, (especially one who was greatly into the occult, as Hitler was, for example) who didn't have a consuming hatred of Jews and opposition to Israel as a nation.

The time will come when that which is not in Christ will be dealt with, judged and ended, but that time is not yet.

Blessings

Jeannette

PreachParsly wrote:

However, I don't understand why replacement theology should be considered by some here as a particularly Calvinist view.

The reason is because reformed theology includes covenant theology (replacement theology). If I have my mind on right this morning and my facts straight, reformed theology teaches covenant theology. But, it's possible to be reformed in your soteriology (salvation) but not in your eschatology (end times).

roaringlamb can probably verify whether I'm right or wrong on this.

Just shows how little "Reformed theology I actually absorbed, it never seemed to do more than sit rather lightly on me - except that at the time I desperately needed the assurance of "once saved, always saved".

I used to be able to recite "T.U.L.I.P." :-P

Jeannette

Dear Little Gift,

You mentioned [i]"To be fair, I never came across folk either, until recent years, who were overboard on the pro-Israel side - Gentile Christians trying to act more Jewish than the Jews, keeping Passover, using Hebrew forms of worship, blowing the shofar etc!
Which is just as wrong as replacememnt theology, and much more silly!"[/i]

Please, could you help me understand, how 'keeping the Passover, using Hebrew forms of worship' is [b][i]just as wrong as replacement theology, and much more silly'[/i][/b]?

You believe that a gentile believer in Yeshua is wrong and silly for keeping the Passover. Could you show us some Scriptural basis for your stance?

Looking forward to hearing your reply,
from Stephen

[b]"But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on HIS law he meditates day and night." Psalm 1:2[/b]

Here's comes that rom 8:28 nut again.

I do believe all these issues are coming up for the sake of revival. Truthfully.

"They were ALL together in one accord" and you know what happened.

Schisms, divisions, contrasted by "praying one for another and having HOPE for each other and not just for OURSELVES" --- it all seems to be playing together of late.

Topics and subjects, whatever they may be - can do either of the above.

I'm a proud member of a Reformed Church and I don't agree with them except where most know I do. The Love of God and Christ and Him Crucified. They built the Nursing Home where I worked and have a HUGE Missions and outreach.

We had a thread on PMs once too.

If we want revival this year - we're praying for all these things.

They say when John was old and they carried him around from house to house, that his finishing words were, "Love one another".

That would be a great goal for 2008.

No hate in 2008. How's that?

And I'm not laughing. But I still trust HIM to fulfill John 17 whether we like it or not.

Thanks y'all for putting up with me too.

Strider100 wrote:

Dear Little Gift,

You mentioned [i]"To be fair, I never came across folk either, until recent years, who were overboard on the pro-Israel side - Gentile Christians trying to act more Jewish than the Jews, keeping Passover, using Hebrew forms of worship, blowing the shofar etc!
Which is just as wrong as replacememnt theology, and much more silly!"[/i]

Please, could you help me understand, how 'keeping the Passover, using Hebrew forms of worship' is [b][i]just as wrong as replacement theology, and much more silly'[/i][/b]?

You believe that a gentile believer in Yeshua is wrong and silly for keeping the Passover. Could you show us some Scriptural basis for your stance?

Looking forward to hearing your reply,
from Stephen

[b]"But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on HIS law he meditates day and night." Psalm 1:2[/b]

There is a big difference between saying "[i]you[/i] are silly" and "What you are [i]doing[/i] is silly".

You seem determined to get mileage from accusing me of abusing you and your beliefs.

Might as well give a brief answer, though you have been told about pushing an agenda:

1Co 5:7 For starters:
[color=990000]Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even [b]Christ our passover is sacrificed for us[/b]:[/color]

Then try the whole of the Epistle to the Hebrews, and the whole of the Epistle to the Galatians.

Actually I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote the above, only some Christians I used to know, who were a bit obsessed with Israel. From your response they probably weren't nearly as extreme as you.

I was also perhaps exaggerating a bit in order to emphasise the point. There's nothing [i]intrinsically[/i] wrong in celebrating the Passover, as long as it is a celebration of Jesus' sacrifice - to end all sacrifices - as the Passover Lamb. (By the way, to be consistant you should call it "Pesach", not Passover.)

I also love Hebrew melodies. Some have such a toe-tapping lilt that one can't help but want to dance!

But there is a world of difference between that and trying to behave as if we were Jewish if we aren't; or thinking that the Jewish way of worship is the only valid one; or demanding obedience to the Law of Moses in order to be saved.

Can we get back to the main subject of this thread now?

Jeannette

Jeannette... join the club. Lately there has been a rise in folks that want to read into what others are actually saying. Or they are reading what we write too fast and are missing what we're trying to say. Or we respond to something someone has said, and someone else assumes we're talking to them... sheeesh!

I only hope they dont read scripture in the same manner as they read what we have to say.

I think if everyone would just slow down, and realize that the person who you're getting hot under the collar at is not the enemy. We are all real people, with real lives, and no one here is the "enemy".

Everyone just chill out... (as we used to say as kids back in the 1980's)

Krispy

Hi Docs

I had to skim this quickly, because of working this evening, but think I agree with you - probably 100%. Certainly that the Rapture and general Resurrection probably cooincide with the return of Christ.

It's mainly the nature of the Millennium that I'm not sure about. For example, what is the purpose of having a millennium at all - if it is a literal 1,000 years? And why should Satan be released from prison for a season at the end of it (think its the end, will have to look it up to be sure)? And, if the millennium has a symbolic aspect (as well as (probably) a literal one, what exactly does it symbolise?

Anyway, that's another subject - maybe when there's time we will be able to go over that a bit more, and come to a provisional decision about it!

Blessings

Jeannette

Little Gift,

I did realise that you were not referring to the [i]person[/i] as being silly, but the [i]practice[/i] of keeping the Passover as being silly. That was clear. Perhaps you misunderstood my quoting of your sentence? I was asking you for a biblical reference as to why you had said that keeping Passover was [i]just as wrong as replacement theology, and much more silly'[/i]?

I do not believe that keeping the Passover is just as wrong as Replacement Theology. I believe that rejecting the Passover Festival of the LORD in favor of a festival introduced by man is part of the problem of Replacement Theology!

Paul says: "Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. [b]Therefore let us keep the feast[/b], not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.".

This [i]is[/i] actually a very valid part of the discussion in this thread. Replacement Theology has done more than replace Israel with the Church, it has [b]replaced most Biblical teachings and celebrations[/b] with those found in the greco-roman world of the early centuries. [i](...he will seek to change the times and the law...Daniel)[/i].

That the disciples and early believers in Yeshua continued to keep the Passover (as well as the Sabbath), is well documented in the New Testament. In Acts 21:20, the elders of the Jerusalem Community tell Paul, "You see brother, how many tens of thousands of believers there are among the Judeans and they are all zealous for the Torah"

In his writings in the second century, Polycarp, who was later martyred for his faith, said that he and his followers kept the feast of the Passover, because they [b]must obey God rather than man[/b]. They insisted on the scriptural time also - in the first month, on the 14th day (Nissan/Aviv). (Easter is celebrated on the first Sunday after the full moon after the vernal equinox.)

Polycarp's followers were finally excommunicated by Pope Victor. In the same period, Eusebius wrote of the separation of Passover and Easter and it became a heresy, punishable by excommunication to commemorate the death and resurrection of Jesus at the same time as the Passover.

By the fourth century, Easter (adapted from a fertility festival in honour of the goddess Ishtar) had officially replaced Passover as the Christian celebration, and is still held to today, thus synchronising pagan and church practice. Obviously people are not holding Easter to Ishtar today. But the fact is that the Easter celebrations with all its pagan trappings has REPLACED the Passover, and is thus part of the problem of Replacement Theology.

Today these truths are being restored, even although Rome sought by threat to sway the faithful to depart from the teaching of the Messiah and the Apostles, many are once agiain restoring the "Faith once delivered to the Saints".

- Not replacement - but restoration!
May it be so, in our day.

Stephen

The Revelation must be understood in the light of its genre. Apocalyptic literature is not to be interpreted the same way that Parables are, or the other types of literary genre in the Bible.

With this in mind, we also need to understand that many of the prophets wrote in Apocalyptic language.

Consider the locusts in this verse-
Revelation 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.

What are the locusts? have we seen locusts used in Scripture before?

Consider this-

The first mention of locusts is in reference to judgment-
Exodus 10:4 For if you refuse to let my people go, behold, tomorrow I will bring locusts into your country,

So we can understand that locusts in Scripture predominantly are symbolic of judgment. This of course is what is going on in Revelation. It is definitely not helicopters as Hal Lindsey would tell people

Paul so wants us to understand the Gospel according go the Mystery....Christ in you, the hope of Glory. With the Gospel according to the Mystery is the rapture of the Church, before the terrible day of the Lord.

Joel, Rev 9, and again Acts mention that terrible day of the Lord. The Jews on Pentecost were reminded of that day YET to come.

The Church has a heavenly Calling, as we are the Body of Christ...the Church, both Jew and Gentile, a New Creature...One New Man.

After the Church is raptured, the scene turns toward Israel, the Fulfillment of the Covenant promises...The Palestinian Covenant,( The promise of the restored Land and the Davidic Covenant ...Jesus Christ who takes the throne of David in the restored Land....bringing in the 1000 year Kingdom Reign of Jesus Christ.

Has this prophecy been fulfilled? If so, When?
Isaiah 9:5-7

5For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

So we see, there is yet a future event, having nothing to do with any wrath brought upon the Church, as we are told we were not called to wrath. Jesus Christ took our wrath upon the Cross.

Gentile world power will come to an end at the Physical return of Jesus Christ, and Jesus will reign and rule.....

Jude and Rev 17 also state Jesus Christ IS COMING BACK WITH HIS SAINTS....NOT FOR THEM...WE HIS CHURCH ARE HIS SAINTS. WE are going to meet Him in the CLOUDS!!!!! Believe it!!!!

Revelation 9:3
And there came out of the smoke [u][b]locus[/b][/u] upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Revelation 9:7
And the shapes of the [u][b]locus[/b][/u] were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

Joel 2
1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

12Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

13And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

14Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:

16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

17Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:

20But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

21Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

22Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25And I will restore to you the years that the [u][b]locus[/b][/u] hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

[u][i][b] 31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. [/b][/i][/u]

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the [u][i][b] moon into blood [/b][/i][/u]
before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Acts 2:19-21
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and [u][i][b] moon into blood [/b][/i][/u]
before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [u][i][b] moon became as blood [/b][/i][/u]

Katy

Romans 16:24-26

24The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, [u][i][b]and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the Mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, [/b][/i][/u],

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

What was the MYSTERY Kept secret?

Salvation or the promise of a redeemer?
Not according to Genesis 3:15

That Gentiles would be saved?
Not according to the Promise made to Abraham, that in him will all families of the earth be blessed.

So what is this MYSTERY that was kept secret, and NOW revealed to us?

"Christ in you" is the Mystery....making up the Church.

Much of this Mystery is in John 17.

Yet Paul further lays out this *Mystery* concerning the Church,

1. That we are to keep our minds on things above and not below....(having nothing to do with End times) but our calling and obedience...as WE are being conformed to His Image.

2. That there is no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST.

3. That we are IN CHRIST and HE is IN US!!!

And so much more.

So, if you think a redeemer or salvation or even Gentiles getting saved was a Mystery ...it is and was not, as these things are not a mystery if so openly spoken of in the OT.

However you will not see any reference to the Church in the OT, and this is what confuses so many people......even reading Daniel.....so many will say...where is the Church in Daniel? The Church is the Mystery Kept secret.

Some believe because Daniel was not thrown into the fire at the time of of Shadrach; Meshach; Abednego that Daniel actually represents the missing Church on earth at this time of great testing for Israel called the time of Jacobs trouble, the 70th week, where only 69 have been fulfilled.

There is one week left to be fulfilled...this is the 7 year tribulation period.

Katy

You know we look at this verse and think that "All" means "All", and it doesn't. "All" means those Jews who have been predestined to be conformed in the image of Christ. That happened by the way, beginning at Pentecost until the last day of the 70th week. (blah blah blah right?)

I want to look at two verse (I am going to save space and just deal with the verses that I am dealing with for my context friends)

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Next:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

You have, "Not ALL Israel is of Israel" and then you have "All Israel shall be saved". Would anyone agree that he is not speaking for all of the nation of Israel, but only those that are truly are OF Israel? (he that hath ears to hear let him hear)

I am going to present to you two more verses and for space sake, you can look it up on it's context.

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Wouldn't you agree that when Jesus was born that Salvation had come?

Luke 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

I mean how many times does the LORD have to turn back to the Jews, when He gave His only begotten Son? If you remember, God sent prophet after prophet and they kept killing them, and finally the LORD said, I will send my Son, surely they will reverence Him, but they saw Him as the heir of all things and killed Him as well. God came and destroyed that nation and let His house out to others who will bring in the crop thereof.

Your traditional teachings are making void the word of God.

Here is another,

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

All Israel was saved long ago before the vineyard was taken away from the husbandmen that was killing the prophets.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![b]38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.[/b]

If you can answer when the Deliver has come, then you'll also know when All Israel was saved.

The 70th week is found here:

According to Luke (3:1), John the Baptist began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius’ reign (29 AD). Jesus began His ministry shortly thereafter at the age of thirty (3:23). Incidentally, this indicates that Jesus was probably born around 1 BC (please note: there was no year zero – 1 AD immediately followed 1 BC). This contradicts the popular date of 4 BC for Herod the Great’s death since Jesus was born while Herod was still alive. Recent scholarship, however, has discredited the popular view in favor of 1 BC; or more specifically, sometime between the January 9th lunar eclipse of 1 BC and the Feast of Passover a few months later. This tentatively corroborates Luke’s account.

Regardless of the questions surrounding the date of Herod’s death, the dates of Tiberius’ reign have been confidently established. They give us a firm basis upon which we can approximate what year Jesus began His public ministry: around 29 AD. As for the end of His ministry, we know that it culminated with His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension.

According to the Gospel accounts, Christ was crucified the day before Passover, was “three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:38-40), and was resurrected before sunrise on a Sunday. In order for Christ to have been crucified the day before Passover and resurrected on a Sunday three days and three nights later, Passover would have had to fall on a Friday, whereby Christ was crucified on a Thursday.

For example, Passover of 30 AD fell on a Thursday (April 6th). To be crucified the day before Passover (Wednesday) and resurrected on Sunday, Jesus would have been in the grave Wednesday afternoon, Wednesday night, Thursday day, Thursday night, Friday day, Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night, Sunday morning before sunrise. That is four nights – one too many. So 30 AD doesn’t work. Plus, according to John’s Gospel, Jesus attended at least three annual Feasts of Passover throughout the course of His ministry: one in John 2:23, another in 6:4 and the Passover of His crucifixion in 11:55-57. So one year (29 to 30 AD) just isn’t enough time.

Based on the dates provided by Sir Robert Anderson in his The Coming Prince (Kregel: Grand Rapids, p. 104), we used the Rosetta Calendar online calendar conversion service to establish which days of the week Passover fell upon between the years 29 AD (our starting point) and 37 AD. Here are Anderson’s dates and their respective days of the week (please note that these are Julian rather than Gregorian dates):

Passover of 29 AD fell on a Sunday (April 17th)
Passover of 30 AD fell on a Thursday (April 6th)
Passover of 31 AD fell on a Tuesday (March 27th)
Passover of 32 AD fell on a Monday (April 14th)
Passover of 33 AD fell on a Friday (April 3rd)
Passover of 34 AD fell on a Tuesday (March 23rd)
Passover of 35 AD fell on a Monday (April 11th)
Passover of 36 AD fell on a Friday (March 30th)
Passover of 37 AD fell on a Thursday (April 18th)

Using this range of dates and assuming that Christ was in the grave for three days and three nights and resurrected on Sunday, we can narrow down the year of Christ’s crucifixion to one of two possibilities: 33 or 36 AD. A prophecy from the book of Daniel seems to favor the earlier date of 33 AD.

In Daniel 9, Gabriel tells Daniel that “Seventy sevens have been decreed for your people… From the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven sevens and sixty-two sevens; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary and its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.” (9:24-26)

Seven sevens + 62 sevens = 69 sevens. 69 seven-year periods would pass from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Messiah. The Messiah would be “cut off” and the city and temple would be destroyed again. A 70th seven-year period would follow.

While the prophecy does not specify what the sevens are, the immediate context implies that they are years. Daniel’s prayer in verses 3-19 focuses on the fulfillment of a 70 year period – the 70 years of Babylonian captivity as prophesied by Jeremiah (25:11). The 70 sevens prophecy was delivered to him in response to this prayer. 70 years fulfilled; 7 times 70 still to come.

Scholars generally agree that this prophecy is according to the ancient 360-day calendar employed by both the Hebrews and the Babylonians (Daniel being written in Babylon during the Babylonian captivity after the fall and decimation of Jerusalem by King Nebuchadnezzar). 69 x 7 years = 483 years. 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days.

Persian Emperor Artaxerxes Longimanus (who ruled Persia from 464-424 BC) issued the edict to rebuild Jerusalem on the 1st of Nissan in the 20th year of his reign (that is, March 5th, 444 BC; see Nehemiah 2:1-8). 173,880 days from March 5th 444 BC ends at March 30th 33 AD. Here’s the math:

March 5th 444 BC to March 5th 33 AD = 476 years (1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is one year, there is no year zero). 476 x 365.24219879 days (which is the length of one year according to our modern calendar) = 173,855 days. March 5th to March 30th is another 25 days. 173,855 days + 25 days = 173,880 days.

March 30th, 33 AD was exactly 5 days before Passover on April 3rd, 33 AD. According to John’s Gospel, the Triumphant Entry took place 5 days before Passover: “Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was who had been dead, whom He had raised from the dead. … Now a great many of the Jews knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also, because on account of him many of the Jews went away and believed in Jesus. The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: ‘Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD! The King of Israel!’" (John 12:1, 9-13)

The day after six days before the Passover equals five days before the Passover. March 30th was the Triumphal Entry, the day upon which Christ presented Himself to the nation of Israel as their Messiah, the first time in His entire ministry that He allowed Himself to be publicly proclaimed as the Messiah (Matthew 21:8-16; Luke 19:37-40; cf. Matthew 16:13-20; Mark 8:27-30; 9:9-10; Luke 9:18-21; John 6:14-15). He was crucified four days later, the day before Passover. Within one generation Titus razed Jerusalem and destroyed the temple.

Based on these points, we believe that Jesus’ ministry lasted about three and a half years, from sometime around 29 AD until the spring of 33 AD.

Katy

here is one week left to be fulfilled...this is the 7 year tribulation period.

Here we go with the "all" doesnt mean "all" again!

No wonder Bill Clinton wanted clarification what the definition of "IS" is... he probably spent time in a Calvinist church when he was growing up!

It just amazes me how the Bible, in it's simplistic form, doesnt fit our favorite system of theology... so we play word games, semantics, and change the definition of the most rudimentory words so that it does.

Thats insane.

Krispy

Krispy, I am not trying to fit my theology in this at all, if you could just read what I had written and about "Not ALL Israel is of Israel" AND "All Israel will be saved", I think that you would come to a logical conclusion that Paul was not speaking about the whole nation, because NOT ALL ISRAEL IS OF ISRAEL.

How am I trying fit that into my theology? I too am doing the same thing your doing, reading the bible in it's simplicity.

Sometimes we overlook the word **MERCY** in Romans 9.

I will have MERCY on whom I will, and harden whom I will.

You will see these verses in Isaiah 14 have NEVER been fulfilled. When Israel was dispersed, she has never ever been regathered and ****restored**** to this day. These verses in Isaiah are NOT Conditional upon anything but ***GOD's MERCY***

The ***House of Jacob*** is Israel, and the House of Jacob is never referred to as the Church. So this promise is not to the Church, but to Israel and her enemies also correlates with revelation when Babylon falls completely. Please read teh whole chapter of Isaiah 14. Satan who sits above the STARS referrs to anti-Christ..The **stars** refer to Israel, when keeping this chapter in context.

Isaiah 14
[u][b]1For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land:[/b][/u], and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

[u]And the WHOLE EARTH has NEVER been at rest...verse 7. This is the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign of Christ.[/u]

Why is the earth at rest? It for one thing is the 7000 year of man upon the earrth. 7 means REST, and satan is bound for these years.

Katy

Comp, that was probably a knee-jerk reaction on my part. I am still trying to understand how some here believe that God does not "so love the world" as scripture says He does... He only loves certain ones, and to hell with the rest... literally, and with no choice in the matter... and for God's "good pleasure". And yet, God is love!

Contradiction.

So when I saw your post my reaction was "oh brother... here we go."

Krispy

If you can answer when the Deliver has come, then you'll also know when All Israel was saved.

Well, we haven't seen the fullness of the Gentile yet, so how can ALL Israel be saved.

Remember too a DELIVER will come out of SION. Romans 11...is not describing the birth and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but describing His second return to earth.

So SION is the Heavenly Jerusalem,... Our Lord Jesus did not originally come out of SION. He was born in Bethlehem...correct?

Acts 1:6&7 clearly state the Kingdom will be restored to ISRAEL. and Jesus will be returning to Earth... the same way he left....this time as KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS.

Katy

docs,

Thanks. You've just given me the opening to say the only thing I have to offer here. Apologies for length. I've no more to say.

If I may, I'll take the verse numbers out of Romans 11 you quoted:

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and thus all Israel will be saved just as it is written - "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob". "And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins." (Romans 11:25-27)

Taking out the punctuation shows the way these lines [i]can[/i] be read, making the fulness of the Gentiles [u]the completion[/u] of 'Israel'.

Because, as Paul says, the Deliverer [u]will come[/u] [b]from[/b] Sion to turn ungodliness away from Jacob. (Jesus went to Jerusalem to die for them and us.)

If you look at the verse in Isaiah which he is supposedly quoting, (below) you can see he has turned it round - [i][b]in recognition of what we all know - that none of us can save ourselves - we [u]all[/u] need a Deliverer (Redeemer)[/i][/b].

In Isaiah those in Jacob had to turn themselves away from ungodliness in order to receive deliverance and be saved by the Deliverer who would come [i][b]to[/i][/b] them.

Here is a recognition that the Deliverer had come [i][b]from[/b][/i] Sion, to do the turning away from ungodliness [i]on Jacob's behalf[/i] (the man of flesh). Thus, Israel - [i]the (new and) spiritual man[/i] - is (literally) saved - in the day when He takes away their sin(s).

(Understanding those verses that way - that Israel had already been saved, and then salvation was extended to the Gentiles - does not preclude every following generation of natural Israel and Gentiles being admissable to the Church - the ecclesia - through faith in Jesus Christ.)

This is a very traditional way of understanding who 'the Church' is - the spiritual Israel - accepted by many scholars, preachers and believers down through the centuries, based on the word translated from the Hebrew to Greek for the Septuagint, where Hebrew scholars chose 'ecclesia' for God's people, and 'synagoge' for the mixed multitude which travelled with them, as in 'the church in the wilderness'. Mahoney made this point way back at the start of this thread. The Church was not a new concept to the disciples. It had existed since before Sinai, and never has been limited only to those who are born again since Pentecost.

Isaiah 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Young's Literal Translation is good for the tense of the verbs.

Romans 11
25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret--that ye may not be wise in your own conceits--that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in; 26 and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it hath been written, `There shall come forth out of Sion he who is delivering, and he shall turn away impiety from Jacob, 27 and this to them [i]is[/i] the covenant from Me, when I may take away their sins.'

Till I posted Young there, I hadn't realised he writes it without punctuation.

Persecution of Jews by so-called Christians, although prophesied, seems like a usurpation by man, of God's own preroguative to punish with justice.

Jeremiah 50:7
[u]All that found them have devoured them:
and their adversaries said[/u],
'[b]We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD[/b],
the habitation of justice,
even the LORD, the hope of their fathers'.

:-o

I am still trying to understand how some here believe that God does not "so love the world" as scripture says He does... He only loves certain ones, and to hell with the rest... literally, and with no choice in the matter... and for God's "good pleasure". And yet, God is love!

However, I have read your quote and have given it much thought in the past, because I have thought these things myself.

We know that God does love the whole world, Grace and Truth that came by Jesus Christ has made this possible.

The truth of the matter is (and I realize that the word 'truth' is loosely thrown around here to the place that it really has no meaning.) but bare with me.

I want to inject this thought into your mind. Is God surprised when one sinner repents? Does God jab Jesus in the ribs and say, "I didn't see that coming"?

Please continue to bare with me.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is God therefore surprised? If you answer No, then you begin to rethink the "Whomsoever Will".

The whole world has been atoned for, Jesus Christ doesn't die daily shedding His blood. He took upon himself the sins of the whole world and laid there as a curse for you and I and the world.

I think we should look at everyone as a potential for salvation, even if they reject the first time, as long as they have breath, there is still hope. For we have no idea how the LORD is working in thier lives. And it's beyond me how Calvinists can think otherwise. God will harden whom He will harden and will have mercy whom He will have mercy. What we need to understand is this, we don't know what God is doing behind the scenes.

KR

I want to inject this thought into your mind. Is God surprised when one sinner repents? Does God jab Jesus in the ribs and say, "I didn't see that coming"?

See, there is a difference between forknowledge and prestination. Forknowledge acknowledges that God forknows all that will happen. Predestination says that God [i]causes[/i] all things to happen... including sin. This would make God a sinner.

To quote Chuck Missner "The river of life flows between two banks of extreme".

I am not Arminian... but neither am I Calvinist. I'm somewhere in between.

I do utterly reject hyper-Calvinism, and it's shown itself on this forum.

I believe both Arminianism and Calvinism are right... and I think both Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong... if that makes sense.

But we're getting off topic on this thread.

Krispy

I believe both Arminianism and Calvinism are right... and I think both Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong... if that makes sense.

Hello LoveHim,

Just wanted to acknowledge your questions, thanks.

i'm just curious, what do you think about where paul talks about the natural branches and the gentiles being grafted in (rom 11). in it he says that what will them coming back be but life from the dead (off top of my head,sorry)? what do you think that means?

:-)

Forknowledge acknowledges that God forknows all that will happen.

What do you mean by that? Do you believe he knows it because he looks down through the corridor of time and can see all events or because he predetermines the very events to take place?

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary offers an excellent definition of God's foreknowledge

[b]Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary[/b]

[b]Foreknowledge of God[/b]

Text: Acts 2:23; Rom. 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2), [b]one of those high attributes essentially appertaining to him the full import of which we cannot comprehend. In the most absolute sense his knowledge is infinite [/b](1 Sam. 23: 9-13; Jer. 38:17-23; 42:9-22, Matt. 11: 21, 23; Acts 15:18).

Walter

I was looking for something else and found this article by Dr Michael Brown.

I think someone on SI originally put me in touch with this site, but can't remember who! It seems an excellent article.

http://www.icnministries.org/israel/forsaken.htm

in Him

Jeannette

docs wrote (Reply to Dorcas):

You said:

< "in recognition of all that we know - that none of us can save ourselves - we [b]all[/b] need a Deliverer (Redeemer).

No problem there. That can't be denied and when they turned aside from themselves and ungodliness then a Redeemer came. And as you stated right after that, that doesn't preclude successive generations of Jew or Gentile coming to the Lord.

... I think modern Israel, in their unbelief, can be seen as a type of man and his predicament. They are not acting as a people within the covenant as God would have them act at this point. They are full of their "own" strength and striving and military might etc. They have set about to establish themselves and are not at the end of their strength so to speak as the Lord would have us all when we come to Him. When modern Israel is broken and despairs of its own strength and realizes their helplessness is when the Deliverer will come form Zion in their case.

When they have turned from their ungodliness. It will be sort of [i][b]an ultimate demonstration by the Lord[/b][/i] that even concerning the original covenant people that the only true way to approach the Lord and receive righteousness is on the basis of faith.

Seen Biblically, that automatically precludes any of our own strength.

[i][b]By fulfillng His original covenant promises to Abraham and Israel and demanding that it done only on the basis of faith[/b][/i] I think will be part of the way that the Lord sanctifies Himself in the eyes of the nations.

...I don't think the fullness of the Gentiles is the "completion of Israel" because in the famous chapters in Romans Paul seems to be saying that after the Gentiles have had their time (what would be the best word?) that the Lord is still restless until the natural branches are grafted back in. Which IMO is a time that escahtology portrays as happening after the fullness of the Gentiles has been completed.

I think that's your view too, Linn?

However, I [i]do[/i] believe that Scripture speaks of a great harvest of Jews returning to their God, and finding their Messiah, before He returns.

Maybe all the unbelieving Jews will be killed in the "last days' plagues???

As in Zechariah 13:9

[color=990000]9 And [i][b]I will bring the third part through the fire][/b][/i], and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: [i][b]they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God[/b][/i].[/color]

in Him

Jeannette