Info on the subject of 'The End Times'

Looking to research this vast topic which I know is full of differing opinions depending on who you ask!!

Anyone know of any online resource with good solid outlines of the bibles teaching on, fulfilled prophesy regarding Israel, tribulation, judgement seat, etc..?

Indeed, sound advice to ask God to reveal truth to myself from His word but should we ignore all others who have put much time and prayer into revealing God's Word to us? We could answer that way for every debate or subject raised on this forum surely? ;-)

All I want is some starting point to give me scriptures and a basic understanding of the subject. Anyone?

Hello,

Revelation 1:3 [i]"God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near."[/i] (NLT)

(A word of encouragment for you, brother!)

You're right. You're going to find practically as many opinions and theories as the number of people you ask. That's precisely why I'm not going to recommend any resources, websites, outlines or any books, except one. You already own it and you already love it. The Bible.

I'm not saying this to be "super spiritual" or in an attempt to sound "holier than thou." What I have to say comes from the deepest depth of my heart. Study this subject for yourself.

There have been debates on this subject since man could read. In all the debates I've witnessed, and even participated in, I've [i]never once[/i] seen anyone persuaded to change their viewpoint because of the debate. More importantly, what you're going to get from most of the resources that are recommended to you, are [i]people's[/i] opinions and theories based on [i]their[/i] study. Unfortunately, many times that study is done in their own efforts and without(much)prayer. Even people who say they've prayed have differing opinions. This is why it's important to study this for ourselves.

I say this because I have asked countless people how many of them have really studied the Bible (not other books or resourcs) and actually prayed diligently about this subject. I asked if they've heard from God on the matter so that it's a resolved matter to them. None could say they have.

We have the same Bible as the greatest theologians and eschatologists that ever lived. And we are as close to the Father as we want to be. God isn't a respector of persons. Honor God by studying the subject for yourself, through His Word and the Holy Spirit. Don't lean on the understanding of men. Study and pray and trust the Lord with all your heart.

I will mention three things as I don't want to start a big fight.

1.Margaret Macdonald.
2.John Darby.
3.Cyrus Scofield and the Scofield Reference Bible.

You can find out about them and make up your own mind.

Had a look at those 3 names - sounds like it really will be a case of just me and the word as I dont see any biblical evidence for most of what I've read to date! :-?

Thanks for the advice guys.

God bless

God is a God of purpose.

There are many opinions on end times and you will find them all.

Just look at it from heavens viewpoint,not tribulation or wrath,but rather what is Gods heart and purpose.

Take a real close look at the marriage supper of the lamb. And the marriage itself.
The groom's heart is filled with the marriage. He longs for his bride.
This is the core of end times events and I believe all end times events revolve around this event.
Remember,it is the revelation(revealing) of Jesus. So just keep this in mind as you go on your adventure.
Ask yourself are their two commings or one comming?
If one then you will have no choice but to take a post trib position on the rapture.

If two commings then pretrib is obvious.

There is also preterist? I think this might be A-millenial.(we are currently in the millenium?)
I dont know about preterist?????

The least popular on si is pretrib.
Followed by post
then preterist
This is my own opinion nd not a scientific poll.
You will find many variations in these positions
and some think there is no rapture at all.

now your probably thinking......now im really confused!

Well hurry up and get a position so we can "discuss it"

LOL!!!!

David

For over 20 years, I was a pre-tribulation believer. But, after becoming a True Christian, and realizing that I'd been deceived by the teachings of man in all manner of doctrine, as well as not taking the responsibility to study the Word for myself, I decided to suspend any doctrinal beliefs I have in the end times (and some other things) until I study them [i]for myself[/i], which means diligently praying and seeking God in the matter, taking the time to wait on Him.

I realized I believed in pre-tribulation (which I'm not yet discounting) because it sounded good to me. It's what I wanted to believe. But, what I learned is that there are scriptures that "seem" to support several different end time doctrines. This is why it's important to study for ourselves and not just accept someone else's opinions. Why settle for that when the Holy Spirit is made available to us as our Teacher and Guide?

It's an exciting topic to be sure, but it's not the greatest thing we can study and know. As brother Paul Washer says, in paraphrase: As soon as Christ returns, you're end times theology is going to be absolutely [i]perfect![/i] But, we'll have all of eternity to endlessly discover more and more and more about Jesus!

A TRUE CHRISTIAN???????

WHAT IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN??????

CAN I BE A TRUE CHRISTIAN AND NOT BE A FOLLOWER OF PAUL WASHER????

ANYONE PRETRIB IS A FALSE CHRISTIAN????

psalm1 wrote:
A TRUE CHRISTIAN???????

WHAT IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN??????

CAN I BE A TRUE CHRISTIAN AND NOT BE A FOLLOWER OF PAUL WASHER????

ANYONE PRETRIB IS A FALSE CHRISTIAN????

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to infer that those who believe in pre-tribulation are not Christians. My comment on True Christianity was meant in regards to the lie I was living before - i.e. believing I was a Christian because I said the sinner's prayer but without any regenerative work in my heart.

Again, I didn't mean to say that pre-tribulation believers are not Christians. I [i]did[/i] say that I still haven't ignored the possibility of pre-tribulation being correct. I said that I'm suspending any theological belief in any particular theory until I've had a chance to study it for myself and hear from God in the matter.

I apologize for the confusion!

Thanks for that. That'll keep me going for a while!! :-)

murrcolr,

murrcolr wrote:
I will mention three things as I don't want to start a big fight.

1.Margaret Macdonald.
2.John Darby.
3.Cyrus Scofield and the Scofield Reference Bible.

You can find out about them and make up your own mind.

Murrcolr,
why do you want to take this bro down rabbit trails?

why do you let men determine your position?

David

Guys, thanks for all the comments / help but as been said there are a great deal of theories and opinions out there with not much scripture to hold it all together so I'll stick with the basic overview the bible gives.

All other areas I'll just leave to the more 'prophetic' ;-)

All I know is that HE is coming soon!

Exactely what I was hoping to find. Good solid teaching which I can use to aid my own learning!

many thanks brother

sermonindex wrote:
A good website dear brother Eli Brayley is starting is: www.olivetdiscourse.com there are already lots of great articles on there.

Just... wow! This site is going to make it difficult to stick to just the Word, but I can't help but look through it! The following section is parallel with my experience almost exactly:

"I have always held the view that the Rapture precedes the Revelation by some seven years, and that the Church, therefore, will not go through the Tribulation, but I do not want to be dogmatic about it and, if God should reveal the contrary to me, I will gladly accept it". Hence, you see, I did not approach the subject with my mind closed to new light and my heart already prejudiced. I was open to whatever God might reveal.

Now, after years of study and prayer, I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist, and that Christ will come at the close and not at the beginning of that awful period. I believed the other theory simply because I was taught it by W. E. Blackstone in his book "Jesus is Coming," the Scofield Reference Bible and Prophetic Conferences and Bible Schools; but when I began to search the Scriptures for myself I discovered that there is not a single verse in the Bible that upholds the pre-tribulation theory, but that the uniform teaching of the Word of God is of a post-tribulation Rapture: pre-millennial always. everywhere pre-millennial, but post-tribulation.

Hi SimpleLife...

SimpleLiving wrote:

Just... wow! This site is going to make it difficult to stick to just the Word, but I can't help but look through it! The following section is parallel with my experience almost exactly:

quote:
"I have always held the view that the Rapture precedes the Revelation by some seven years, and that the Church, therefore, will not go through the Tribulation, but I do not want to be dogmatic about it and, if God should reveal the contrary to me, I will gladly accept it". Hence, you see, I did not approach the subject with my mind closed to new light and my heart already prejudiced. I was open to whatever God might reveal.

Now, after years of study and prayer, I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist, and that Christ will come at the close and not at the beginning of that awful period. I believed the other theory simply because I was taught it by W. E. Blackstone in his book "Jesus is Coming," the Scofield Reference Bible and Prophetic Conferences and Bible Schools; but when I began to search the Scriptures for myself I discovered that there is not a single verse in the Bible that upholds the pre-tribulation theory, but that the uniform teaching of the Word of God is of a post-tribulation Rapture: pre-millennial always. everywhere pre-millennial, but post-tribulation."

It's amazing that many different people can arrive to differing opinions about such things. There are people here at SermonIndex who embrace nearly every possible scenario in regard to the exact timeline of the End. For a while, I even thought that [i]most[/i] of the brethren here were "post-Trib" -- until I began to hear from some of the brethren who try to refrain from arguing toward any certainty in the matter.

I've always believed that all possible scenarios should be taught. This is not to say that we should embrace all possible ideas, but that we should be open to the various scenarios regarding the Lord's return. We shouldn't spit upon one idea (or call it a "lie from Satan" -- as some have actually done) simply because it doesn't adhere to our own particular leanings. Likewise, I wonder how "absolutely convinced" we can truly be in a matter for which so little dates are provided or if there is even the slightest possibility of error?

I was looking through this thread to see if there are any links that are not blatantly pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, etc... It seems like the great majority of End Times websites out there are decidely slanted in one direction, and spend quite a bit of time trying to rebuke or rebuff any alternative ideas or theories. Some warn about "lies" that can cause many to "lose their faith" (as if a true believer's faith is so insecure). It seems unfortunate to me that it is so difficult to discuss this issue (like so many other issues) in a manner that does not result in finger pointing, allegations, insinuations or divisiveness.

I wonder, like the first poster, if there are any websites that discuss such matters from an entirely objective perspective -- without using the "h" word ("h" as in "heresy") in regard to the sincere thoughts of others? Are there any websites that present the various theories about the exact timing and manner of the Lord's return without deviating into absolutism?

:-)

sermonindex wrote:
A good website dear brother Eli Brayley is starting is: www.olivetdiscourse.com there are already lots of great articles on there.

Very good site that Eli has started! Thanks for sharing, brother.

This caught my attention from one of the links from the site:

[b]WHY IT MATTERS WHAT YOU BELIEVE[/b]

In contemporary western Christianity, post-tribbers are looked upon with pity and suspicion. Some think we have a "martyr complex." Others think we are just troublemakers, wanting to rock the boat. Post-tribulationism just [b]doesn't seem to fit in with the prosperous lifestyles of contemporary western Christianity. The lack of real persecution and hardship has led many to assume that this is the normal Christian life. But, according to Scripture, persecution, tribulation, and hardship, is the real "normal" Christian experience. The comfort western Christians have enjoyed for the last few generations is an anomaly that will soon come to an end. The theological "comfort zones" we have constructed around this anomaly are about to come crashing down.[/b]

For those who are honestly considering the various views of the rapture timing, and are open to God's leading regarding this issue, there is plenty of opposition ahead for you. The "rapture question" has been a hot potato issue in the recent past. In some cases, splitting churches. Christians who have abandoned the pre-trib view and been the least bit vocal about it have often found themselves being offered the "right foot of fellowship." Many pastors who have abandoned pre-trib have lost their churches, and missionaries have been abandoned by their mission boards and supporting churches because of their switch to the post-trib view. So, if you have no tolerance for hardship, you had better stop here. If you've got the guts to face the truth head on no matter what it is, then please continue.

Some say it really doesn't matter if Jesus is coming before or after the tribulation, as long as we are "ready." They think we should all just agree to disagree, and love one another. But, "ready" is a relative term! It begs the question, "ready for what?" There is a huge difference between being ready to be gently whisked away to heaven on a pillow, and being ready to become a martyr at the hands of Antichrist! Is surface harmony worth the risk of huge numbers of believers being caught totally unprepared spiritually, emotionally, and physically? What about the "many" believers whom Jesus mentioned in Matt. 24:9-13 who would fall away when the deception and persecution of the last days arrives? If Jesus' coming is several decades away, then perhaps the rapture debate is not all that critical. But, if Jesus is coming soon as the signs seem to indicate, one's views on the timing of the rapture are crucial to being prepared to be an overcomer in the difficult days before His coming.

Knowledge of what lies ahead motivates people to prepare. A rookie soldier, who knows he is about to be shipped to the front lines in a brutal war, will have a much different attitude about basic training than a new recruit who joined up to get a free education and a pension! The soldier who is about to engage the enemy knows his training may mean the difference between life and death. He learns survival techniques; he gets physically fit; he learns his weapons inside and out; he makes sure his weapons are in good working order; through countless hours of practice he becomes a marksman. He also prepares himself mentally for combat and the possibility of being a POW. His objective is clear; he is fully equipped; and he is mentally focused on getting the job done and coming home in one piece! On the other hand, the new peace-time novice, with big ideas of a comfortable career, could have a ho-hum attitude about basic training. If he is unexpectedly thrust into a fierce battle, he will find himself woefully unprepared. While staring down the barrel of the enemy's rifle is not the time to be fumbling around for your weapon's instruction manual. He might just conclude that this is not what he signed up for!

If it really doesn't matter what we believe about the last days, why did God devote such a large portion of His Word to end-time prophecy? Is it just filler material? Is it for intellectual entertainment? The answer is really quite simple. Prophecy was intended to provide the kind of motivation needed to turn flabby pew-potatoes into Christian soldiers. This website is an introduction to "basic training" for Christians, alerting them of the coming trials we will soon face in time to prepare themselves and their families spiritually and emotionally, and perhaps even physically at the proper time. And don't kid yourselves about your own or your family's ability to easily digest the emotional implications. Without strong spiritual character first, Christians who live at relative ease in the western world often react badly to the idea that they may soon face the Antichrist, and all the venom that hell can dish out on God's children.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/index.html#historical

by ccchhhrrriiisss on 2008/2/21 17:46:12

...and just as amazing is that my experience was quite the opposite! I was quite convinced (although, not entirely) that the Bride of Christ was appointed to endure through the hour of God's wrath upon the Earth. After years of serious study, I became quite convince (although, far from entirely) that the Bride of Christ will not suffer under God's wrath.

It's amazing that many different people can arrive to differing opinions about such things. There are people here at SermonIndex who embrace nearly every possible scenario in regard to the exact timeline of the End. For a while, I even thought that most of the brethren here were "post-Trib" -- until I began to hear from some of the brethren who try to refrain from arguing toward any certainty in the matter.

I'm not claiming any viewpoint at this time. Like the blurb in the article I quoted, I'm remaining neutral and open to the Spirit's leading.

Oswald Smith said two things in this article that I have [i]never[/i] heard [i]anyone[/i] say. These two things are enough to cause me to lend him an open, attentive ear:

I did not approach the subject with my mind closed to new light and my heart already prejudiced. I was open to whatever God might reveal.

and

[b]Now, after [u]years of[/u] study and [u]prayer[/u], I am absolutely convinced...[/b]

I have heard people say they were convinced, but it was always based on [i]their studies[/i]. I have never heard anyone say they've prayed for years, open to whatever God might reveal. By most people's arguments, they went into their studies to prove their own viewpoint or, at least, with their heart already prejudiced towards one leaning or another.

I agree, brother, that it's simply astounding as to how so many theories there are on this subject. It fascinates me! I'm looking forward to see what the Lord shows me in my own prayer time and study. To be honest, it makes no difference one way or the other to me. If we are raptured, I'm all for it! If we are expected to endure the Great Tribulation, then I'm willing.

Whatever brings God the most glory and fulfills His perfect will!

Am currently reading from the olivetdicorse site.

It is an anti pretrib site.

I did find it somewhat disingenuous.

this is a quote from an article......"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be strengthened, to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man"—when I read these solemn words, it becomes obvious that the persons addressed are commanded to wait and earnestly to watch for the signs of their Lord’s return, and upon their obedience to this command their preparedness for receiving Him depends".

Notice how they changed the bible to try and strengthen their position!

I found this right away and right now I look like I have a botox shot in my right eyebrow!

David

Hi SimpleLiving…

[b]“I did not approach the subject with my mind closed to new light and my heart already prejudiced. I was open to whatever God might reveal.”[/b]

and

[b]“Now, after years of study and prayer, I am absolutely convinced...[/b]”

[i]SimpleLiving wrote:[/i]
I have heard people say they were convinced, but it was always based on their studies. I have never heard anyone say they've prayed for years, open to whatever God might reveal. By most people's arguments, they went into their studies to prove their own viewpoint or, at least, with their heart already prejudiced towards one leaning or another.

When did such people reach their personal “epiphany” about understanding the timeline of the end? Was it after a month of prayer and study? Was it after a year of prayer and study? A decade? The point is that these individuals obviously held a different position WHILE they were praying and studying. In other words – the answer wasn’t “[u]obvious[/u]” at all (at least, not for some period of time). So, can we claim that the truth in this matter is “obvious?” I don’t think so. Yet many of these same people are the most vocally critical about any belief that is contrary to the one that they reached after “years of prayer and study.” Many warn of possible “delusion” or “deception” if others do not adhere to their perspective on this issue. Is this helpful for the same unprejudiced journey that others are taking in this matter? It seems that the former are often trying to radically influence the thought of others.

I agree, brother, that it's simply astounding as to how so many theories there are on this subject. It fascinates me! I'm looking forward to see what the Lord shows me in my own prayer time and study. To be honest, it makes no difference one way or the other to me. If we are raptured, I'm all for it! If we are expected to endure the Great Tribulation, then I'm willing.

Whatever brings God the most glory and fulfills His perfect will!

However, I just can’t see the Lord killing the saints when He has expressly declared that we aren’t appointed to suffer such wrath (in the same context of an [i]End Times[/i] passage – I Thessalonians 5:9). I simply feel that the “[i]hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the entire world, to try them that dwell upon the Earth[/i]” (which God has indicated that he will keep us [u]from[/u] – Revelation 3:10) is quite different than the mere “tribulation” and “persecution” that the Church has faced throughout history (and in many places, still does face).

I don’t mind that people don’t agree with me. I do, however, grow frustrated when some people use harsh language in opposition, including use of the words “deception” or “lie” to describe the idea of a pre-wrath taking of God’s people. I’m sure that some people feel that they do God a favor by attacking the very notion of such a belief, because they might very well believe that it is a “deception.” But it is the same deception that many of them openly claim to have held for years – until they changed their opinion following “years of study and prayer.” Surely we can season our conversation with the salt of grace and understanding when speaking with people who are of the same opinion in which we were just a few short years ago?

Recently, I began to wonder about the amount of time that people have been putting into such things. How will the End come? When will it happen? What is the interpretation of the books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation and Matthew chapters 24 and 25? I’ve known people who have spent years almost “trapped” (if that makes sense) into “watching” for the Lord’s return. I don’t mean that they shouldn’t “watch.” But how far should they go into trying to decipher every “dot and tittle” about the end? There is a woman who attends our local congregation who almost eats, drinks and breathes this topic! She is a very poor, single, older woman who spends much of her money buying books about the end, and she spends hours visiting websites that (as she says) “expose the truth.” She is ardently “pre-trib” (or the [i]Jack Van Impe[/i]and [i]A Thief in the Night[/i] sort) and almost acts like she is fulfilling the command of the Lord through her daily activities. She acts as though she completely understands just how specific events during the End Times will play out. It is difficult to speak with her because my wife and I know beforehand what she wants to hear and we know that her reaction can be quite strong.

I’ve thought about this woman’s lifestyle of “watching” as opposed to the type of watching that can be accomplished by a young Christian child living on an African plain. Does a 12 year old believer in a third world environment (such as Africa, Vietnam, Mexico, etc…) have the ability to “watch” for the Lord’s return? Are they able to fulfill that call? What if they don’t have access to books or the internet? What if they don’t have access to a monthly “End Times” newsletter? What if they don’t have access to a single newspaper? Can such a child (or adult) in those conditions – as over 60% of human beings live – fulfill Christ’s call to “watch?”

Nevertheless, I’ve always believed that we should be able to learn each of the possible scenarios regarding the return of the Lord. What would it hurt to learn and be aware of BOTH post-trib and pre-trib? The important thing, in my opinion, is that we should keep our eyes firmly upon our Lord. While some might suggest that we could fall away into “deception” for learning alternative scenarios, I think that the chance of such deception is greatly lessened when we keep our eyes on Christ and make certain that are faith is pure. Is there anything better?

:-)

By the way, I didn’t hope to deviate into any sort of formal discussion about Biblical eschatology. In fact, I would prefer that this wouldn’t be the case (particularly since it wasn’t the intent of the original thread). I do wish that there were websites that discussed this issue from in entirely objective manner. Too often, there seems to be websites biased in one direction or another (which result in an “us against them” sort of rhetoric). I do so often grow weary of the barbs that are traded during such discussions. It just seems to be a waste sometimes – a waste of time, words, and opportunity. Wouldn't it be wonderful to discuss such things without worrying about the direction that such conversations tend to flow?

Chris, I agree and would like to add: the end times carries with it a mystery. We ,no doubt ,will all be surprised.

If you could get all the end times scriptures and write them on dominoes,and stack them up.

You could tip them any way you want and it would"seem" correct.....its a mystery.

That is where books come in.(revelation of the brethren)

None of us has the whole picture!

I think wheather the debate is friendly or heated we should forgive and continue.
Or better yet respect each other enough to know when to pour oil on our bretren in dissagreements.(starting with me first)

Not that I would ever get in the flesh,of course.

David

End Times doctrinal debates bascially all come down to the same things as every other debate. Each side says the other is twisting scriptures. The truth is, [i]both sides[/i] are twisting, bending or misunderstanding scriptures, even if only unintentionally.

That's why, I believe, there are only two, true, known facts in the End Times debate: 1) That it will never be settled once and for all, to everyone's satisfaction, while we're still on the earth, and 2) that it's important for everyone to study and pray about everything.

We don't know God's mind fully in this matter, obviously. It may be that He gives revelation to one person after a month of study and prayer, to another after three years and to another after three minutes of prayer. He may give full knowledge of the End Times to someone, if He chooses. But, He might also give different saints different pieces in hopes that they might come together, prayerfully and in unity, to piece the mystery together as a family so that no one man may boast.

We just don't know with 100% certainty. I think it's unproductive to continue the topic beyond a discussion and into debates. It can ONLY cause division. Has [i]your[/i] mind ever been changed on this subject through a debate? Have you ever changed anyone else's mind? If so, are you so positive that you're view is wholly correct that it was worth the arduous process and the division that it might have caused others involved in it?

The Word, and wisdom, is there for all who seek and ask for it. I just don't think it's necessary to get worked-up about it. If we're at a point where we can't hold our tongue when another brother mentions an opposing viewpoint, I think there are greater issues involved.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Nevertheless, I’ve always believed that we should be able to learn each of the possible scenarios regarding the return of the Lord. What would it hurt to learn and be aware of BOTH post-trib and pre-trib? The important thing, in my opinion, is that we should keep our eyes firmly upon our Lord.

Brother, I think you and I are on the same wavelength. I wholly agree with you. While we may lean towards one theory, I don't think we can completely rest upon it unless we can say with utter honesty and complete assurance that we have heard from God on the matter and it's completely settled. Anything less and we are leaning on our own understanding.

Proverbs 3:5-6 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; [i]and lean not unto thine own understanding.[/i] In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."