Does ALL mean ALL?

I thought I'd start this thread from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=22347&forum=35]Replacement Theology Thread[/url] because the Rabbit trail was getting interesting but it was also thwarting the original line of thinking.

This quote comes from LoveHim.

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." now you have to ask, does all men mean all men or just all kinds of all men?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one[Adam] judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one[Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Furthermore, I brought [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=22347&forum=35&start=60&viewmode=flat&order=0]post[/url] over from the Replacement Theology because it belongs here as well.

I said:

You know we look at this verse and think that "All" means "All", and it doesn't. "All" means those Jews who have been predestined to be conformed in the image of Christ. That happened by the way, beginning at Pentecost until the last day of the 70th week. (blah blah blah right?)

I want to look at two verse (I am going to save space and just deal with the verses that I am dealing with for my context friends)

Quote:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

They are not "all" Israel, which are of Israel.

Next:
Quote:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Lets wrap these verses together.

You have, "Not ALL Israel is of Israel" and then you have "All Israel shall be saved". Would anyone agree that he is not speaking for all of the nation of Israel, but only those that are truly are OF Israel? (he that hath ears to hear let him hear)

I am going to present to you two more verses and for space sake, you can look it up on it's context.
Quote:

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

When did this everlasting salvation come?

Wouldn't you agree that when Jesus was born that Salvation had come?
Quote:

Luke 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

Remember Jesus came to the house of David, NOT to the gentiles.

I mean how many times does the LORD have to turn back to the Jews, when He gave His only begotten Son? If you remember, God sent prophet after prophet and they kept killing them, and finally the LORD said, I will send my Son, surely they will reverence Him, but they saw Him as the heir of all things and killed Him as well. God came and destroyed that nation and let His house out to others who will bring in the crop thereof.

Your traditional teachings are making void the word of God.

Here is another,
Quote:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

We only deal with the law being fulfilled here, but it's also mentions the words of the prophets. How come we can't fathom that Jesus fulfilled all that was spoken of in the law and the prophets?

All Israel was saved long ago before the vineyard was taken away from the husbandmen that was killing the prophets.
Quote:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

It was ABANDONED by God!

If you can answer when the Deliver has come, then you'll also know when All Israel was saved.

In the light of these 3 verses, are ALL men Justified? Are ALL men in Christ Jesus? Are ALL men saved?

The answer to this question is no... not ALL men are justified. Not ALL men are in Christ Jesus. And obviously ALL men are not saved.

However, Jesus Christ did die for ALL of the sins of ALL men. But... (and this is a big but) His sacrifice for us only becomes effective for those who accept it.

In other words, here is a gift in a box with pretty wrapping paper and a bow. I want you to have this gift (it's a black 2008 Mustang GT)... but it doesnt become yours until you take ownership of it. You have to accept the gift.

Christ's blood is available to ALL men. But most men will refuse it. Limited Atonement is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

I reject the idea that God created the majority of mankind simply to make them sin without any say so in the matter, then judge them accountable for the sins that He made then commit... and then cast them into eternal punishment. Simple for His "good pleasure".

Thats not justice.

No, God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, the WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall not parish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, [b]not willing that ANY should perish[/b], but that [b]ALL[/b] should come to repentance.

ALL means ALL. I know Calvinism redefines "all" and "world" and other words indicating all... but thats because they have to in order for their system of theology to stand. Funny thing is tho, there are other systems of theology that re-define words in the Bible to make the Bible fit their beliefs... they are called Mormons, JW's, etc etc.

Krispy

brother compliments, this very verse shows us that Jesus has made His gift free to all by His righteousness. the question is now "have you received His free gift by new birth"??

[b]Exactly![/b]

Anytime semantic cart wheels have to be done with scripture in order to help a theology make sense... that is a red flag.

Let scripture speak for itself... without the help of the Oppressor of Geneva.

Krispy

How about this one Luke 2:10

10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Did it bring joy to the pharisees or other evil doers?

Actually, this only bolsters what I said earlier.

The angels were correct, they did bring good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Whether or not the pharisees or evil doers accepted it as good news did not change the fact that it was good news... and was intended for all people.

It's like me saying the sky is blue. This is a true statement... but if you reject this truth, does it mean the sky really isnt blue? No, just means you're an idiot. ;-)

(that was an attempt at humor... dont stone me!)

Krispy

I wouldn’t dream of it. I might hurt the rock!

Have you been talking to my wife? This sounds like something she would say! :-?

Shall is not conditional. It means it will be. This is not about whether they accept it or not. It IS good news…for those to whom He is speaking. It was not good news to some.

This passage that you are trying to proove that "all" doesnt mean "all" just doesnt work for you. Anyone who reads that passage without trying to fit some preconceived notion into it... just reads it at face value in the context of scripture as a whole... knows exactly what that verse means. It is good news and shall be onto all people. It doesnt mean all will accept it. It means for everyone. Good news is good news whether you think it is or not.

This is what I mean when I say semantics games have to be used to make Calvinism work. We read it, and we instinctively know what it means. But here comes the Calvinist to explain to us that no, it doesnt mean what it says... it means something else.

The God I serve doesnt go out of His way to complicate things for us. Some things are beyong our understanding, obviously, but He did not give us His Word in cryptic messages that we need a Calvinist decoder ring in order to understand.

Krispy

This is what I mean when I say semantics games have to be used to make Calvinism work. We read it, and we instinctively know what it means. But here comes the Calvinist to explain to us that no, it doesn't mean what it says... it means something else.

LoveHim wrote:

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

the question i have is this. did judgement come to all men because of adam? was it all men or just all kinds of men? we will all probably say "yes, to all men". then the verse says even so because of His righteous act, the free gift came to all men

brother tj, can you please answer the question. did adam's trespass or offense mean judgement for ALL MEN (everyone ever born)or ALL KINDS OF MEN (with some men not affected)? i've posted this twice and it's not been addressed, so i am asking you what you think this verse is saying. did adam's offense affect all men or just all kinds of men?

just asking brother:-D
phil

Hello, I am not the person you addressed this to, but I would like to try to answer your question. All people are either "in" the first Adam, or "in" the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

The Bible tells us that the first man, Adam, was created by God, in His image and likeness, directly from the dust of the ground. God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life, and he became a living soul (Genesis 1:26–27; 2:7). Adam was not the product of some form of theistic evolution. Rather God created Adam as an immediate act, by His word (i.e. by commanding or willing this to happen), at some time on the sixth day of Creation week.

While Adam was made in the image of God, Christ is ‘the image of the invisible God’ (Colossians 1:15).

The Bible tells us that the last Adam, Jesus Christ, was the One through whom God created all things (John 1:1–3; Colossians 1:15–20; Hebrews 1:2). Thus Jesus was pre-existent with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit before Adam lived (John 8:58; Micah 5:2).4 Nevertheless, in His humanity, He too had a miraculous beginning when He was incarnated as a human being—conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary (Matthew 1:20–23; Luke 1:26–35).

2. Perfect, innocent, holy
Adam was created a perfect man, in full possession of all human faculties, and with a God-consciousness which enabled him to have spiritual communion with God. Initially innocent, sinless, and holy, he was in a right relationship to God, to woman, to himself, and to the natural world around him.

The last Adam, Jesus, was also perfectly man, one with God (John 10:30; 17:21-22), innocent, sinless, and holy (Hebrews 7:26). Many people mistakenly refer to Jesus Christ as the ‘second Adam’, a term not found in the Bible. However, Scripture refers to Christ as the ‘second man’ (1 Corinthians 15:47). There have been many men since Adam, but Jesus Christ was only the second man to ever be completely without sin.

Unlike the first Adam, the Lord Jesus was, in addition, divine, having the attributes, offices, prerogatives, and names of deity. Being fully God, He is worthy of worship (e.g. Revelation 5:11–14).

3. Humanity’s head
Adam was the head of the human race. Jesus Christ is the head of redeemed humanity (see, for example, Ephesians 5:23). Since Christ died once for all time (Hebrews 7:27; 9:28; 10:10–14), there will never be the need for any further ‘Adam.’ Hence He is the last Adam.

4. Both givers of life
The first Adam gave life to all his descendants. The last Adam, Jesus Christ, communicates ‘life’ and ‘light’ to all men, and gives eternal life to those who receive Him and believe on His name, giving them ‘power to become the sons of God’ (John 1:1–14).

5. Two rulers
Adam, representing mankind, was given dominion over the created world (Genesis 1:26). After being raised from the dead, Jesus Christ was elevated to God’s right hand, and given dominion over all things, which were ‘put under his feet.’ (1 Corinthians 15:27; Ephesians 1:20–22). The first Adam was lord over a limited domain, the last Adam is Lord of all (Acts 10:36).

Hope this hasn't been too long.

Walter