Children and church worship

There is a question that never crossed my mind till another brother told me about this.
Please don't give a quick answer based on your experience or feelings.
Please check this question in the light of the Scripture before drawing any conclusion.

Let me write first a small introduction.
I grew up in a Baptist church where as a child I was encouraged to take part in the church service: singing, reciting Bible verses and all kind of other activities during the church service.

But then someone asked me this question: Who can worship, serve and build the Church? The answer is obvious: those who are born of the Spirit.
Well then, as a child, I wasn't born of the spirit till I've been around 20 years old.
Was my service justified? Is the children's service today justified?
Almost every evangelical church encourages their children to have their part in the worship and church service. At least with the occasion of Christmas and Easter.

Should not serve the church only those who are led and inspired by God's Spirit?

Matthew 19
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Obviously, Jesus is not speaking here about the children's service but about the free access they have to Him, about their simplicity and sincerity.

1 Corinthians 14:26
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

This service should happen as the Spirit is leading everyone but a child, unless is borne and led by the Spirit won't really build the Church.
When children are singing or doing something in the church it could be a nice time, some entertainment but not real fellowship and worship. A Christian's child is not a Christian unless he repents and believes in Jesus Christ. These are some question marks for which I don't have yet a final answer.
Have you ever thought about it?

I see what you mean.
Of course, I agree that a child can be born again or led by the Spirit.
but when there is one led by the Spirit and other 10 which are not, if they want to sing as a group, should their parents or the church elders encourage them?
However, it's something different when meeting in a home, you know much more about the other people's daily problems or burdens and you can approach them differently.
In a larger congregation it's more difficult to oversee the people.
I speak from my experience: We were about 30-40 children who were expected regularly to sing during the church service.
I wonder now, was that praise a "holy offering" before the Lord? Was the church truly blessed or just entertained?
If the children from your church are singing a song, for example, are you really blessed or you just find it cute or you like it? You have to be truly honest to answer this.

This issue is one that requires a lot of serious, prayerful thought. I agree with the other responses to this thread - so far.

I would reiterate this idea: how much is entertainment? how much is real spiritual enlightenment?

Then you have the child himself who is very young, immature and by no means do you want to stifle his expression or involvement. I well remember performing in Christmas programs in our parochial school and what a blessings this memory still gives to this 60 year old lady. Seems to me what you need is balance and this requires the leading of the Holy Spirit.

BTW, old folks, especially, love to hear children sing or perform. This may not seem logical to a younger person, but it does cheer older people. Is it perhaps because the young are not so skilled in manipulating folks like the older ones are? There is an innocence there in small children that gratifies older people, me included and I am NOT old! Some older folks - like young adults - take great pride in their public performance....seems to me the issue here can well be applied to persons regardless of age.

You wanted scripture to bolster our thoughts. Remember how Miriam lead the women in song and dance after a great deliverance when the Israelites crossed the Red Sea? (Exo. 15) God loves spontaneous praise, one that is not forced but rises from pleasure and joy in the heart. This is the challenge for all of us, IMHO.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

As we cultivate a keener appreciation for the works of God in our own lives, we need to be careful of getting too religious regarding the grace of God in other people's lives. I conclude that even seasoned saints must still acquiesce to marvel at salvation as a mystery of God's heart. There is both singular perfect holiness that only he can boast of and inclusive big hearted compassion that we boast of---all for his glory. Why it pleased such a perfect God to see we are saved, and how he intervenes for our salvation remains one of the most divisive controversies even among the saved!

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 1 Cor 7:14

I can think of no good reason to ban children from healthy forms of worship just because they show no signs of authentic confession, or even comprehension of saving faith. See it as spiritual apprenticeship that could very well lead to Godly habits and eventual personal knowledge of the Lord.

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Prov.22.6

Blessings,

MC

But let me ask you this... what about the adults in the service? If what Ravenhill says is true, then only 2% of the adults in any given church are truly born again and following the Lord.

It's not exactly what Ravenhill said. If it would be really so it would be more than a disaster.
He said that he doubts that more than two percent of professing Christians in the United States are truly born again.
So I see many dead churches today buy I still try to find the one where God is moving and changing the people's hearts.

you said: "who are we to judge where they are with the Lord?" I'm not the one who has to judge them but I certainly believe that the elders of the church have the right and obligation to judge them , which means to distinguish between carnal and spiritual, between goat and sheep, between false and real.
Can we allow everyone to say anything in the church if he profess to be a Christian? If he brings death in the church the elders should approach this person with love and restrict his participation (public speaking/singing). I think this is not outside the scripture.

This is about the adults in the service.

Good turn in the conversation. If the adult service is Spirit led, and not carnal or soulish, what better place for the children to be. If in fact the meeting is soulish and carnal the children probably will not be a help or hindrance, but most likely will not be helped but hindered from spiritual growth. Unfortunately the church that is soulish and carnal in their meeting, will probably be soulish and carnal in their childrens classes as well. I know that I was supposed to keep this out of the experiential but I think these are kingdom principles as well.
I, like krispy believe that the children go with the parents. I believe as Jesus at 12 was in the temple reasoning with the teachers it would not have been taboo for a 12 year old to be in the temple. This past Sunday we actully had great coversation on the content of the service with our 4 young ones (7, 9, 11, 14) How much better to be able to hash over what was still so freshly taught. When our children were in childrens classes it usually went like "how was class today? Did you learn anything?" There is maybe not a always right or wrong, but I don't think you can go wrong with children hearing a Spirit led message that is tailored by God for all who hear it. Thanks for tolerating my babbling! Lord bless this post, Barry

"Let the little children come to me"---Jesus.

Jesus doesn't deny them regardless of where He is.

Samuel is a great example.

"But Samuel was ministering before the Lord...a boy wearing an ephod." 1 Sam. 2:18

"The boy Samuel grew up in the presence of the Lord." 1 Sam. 2:21

"and the boy Samuel continued to grow in stature and favor with the Lord and with men." 1 Sam. 2:26

"Samuel ministered before the Lord under Eli..." 1 Sam. 3:1

"The Lord called called Samuel." 1 Sam. 3: 4

"Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord; The word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him." 1 Sam. 3: 7

Many missionaries I have talked with were called when they were 5, 6, and 7.

Our children are our most precious treasures. I think David Wilkerson was called into ministry at age 7. The Lord spoke to him that he would preach His word.

In His amazing love,
Lowly
--------------------------------------
Learn of Me for I am meek and lowly of heart............

I admit, I have been chastised more than once for putting people on the platform who were less than the spiritual ideal. It usually boils down to expectation: Certain behaviors, emotions, clichés, and musical styles are considered more spiritual. Let’s admit, kids learn quickly how to produce what gives them acceptance. The ones born and bred in church have a distinct advantage. But what we see may reflect the ability to conform outwardly more than a reflection of true inner transformation – which is the work of God in his time.

I am very reluctant to judge the spirituality of kids, and then try to separate out the sheep from the goats. God can speak to me through the most rambunctious of them all.

Kids need a loving environment, good examples, and consistant standards. The local church could be an ideal setting - IF it would refrain from turning the worship service into an idol – were one’s ideal becomes more sacred than the need to facilitate growth and maturation.

Our children are our most precious treasures.

Diane

As a former child who attended Sunday School almost as far back as I can remember, I think children should be taught separately from adults like what happens in Sunday School. They should also be exposed to preaching from the pulpit that is directed towards adults - children will absorb more then we give them credit for. The advantage of SS classes is that the teacher can speak their language on their level where their understanding resides.

Jesus took children onto his lap and talked to them. I wonder what he said? The disciples didnt think it was necessary, but He did...something we must always consider.

Now to put them in front of the audience to perform...it has its advantages but can be abused, it can teach pride as well.

I am teaching juniors now at our church and find it a challenge - have two who are handicapped with learning disabilities - dyslexia. So, I adapt my presentation to reach them and the others do not seem to mind. I love these children and they know it. They are precious, have eternal souls that will live forever - somewhere. My passion is for them to make the right choices in life. And it begins in the home and should be reinforced in the church. Without that reinforcement the parents are at a serious disadvantage. Many a life has been influenced by a godly teacher and it should behoove us adults to be that teacher.

ginnyrose

Thanks Krispy Kritter, these are just my thought’s to your reply.

[color=000099]The arguments against children in the service in the original post are not scriptural... and thats my main point.[/color]

. In no way does this mean that you are experienced in this area….the bible speaks about training your Kids in the ways of the Lord, so that when they get older they shall not depart, correct?

Train up your children in the ways of the Lord, so that when they get older they shall not depart. I raised my child, in the ways of the Lord, so much so that during a prayer meeting at the age of “4” my child was speaking in tongues, (an unknown language).

Teach your children to fear the Lord, and to reverence Him and his Holy presences. Your children will most likely do what they so often see you doing and they will speak as they hear you speaking. If what you do is sit on your kitchen floor and worship God, then guess what? This is what your child will learn to do. If what you do is pace back and forth praying in the Spirit and Praying the Word, then guess what? This is what your child will do.

When your child see’s you praying for a nation, pulling down strong holes, breaking walls, uprooting, and calling those things that re not as though they are, guess what? This is what your child will do.

By no means am I saying that your child ought to be raised with a silver spoon in there mouths, No, on the contrary teach your child the word! Help him or her through prayer to memorize the word!.

When my child was of a toddler’s age, I used to shield him of everything that was in the world and in television, unless it was PBS. Never! Did I allow anyone, and I mean anyone to even speak a word that was not appropriate anywhere near my son, YES! I was hated and disliked by everyone in the family because of this and I was judged. I didn’t care what anyone thought of me, all I cared was about my child’s Spirit.

When Kids get to be of a certain age, you can no longer shield them in this way, you must continue to trust the word of God. Teach your children the ways of the Lord, and when they get older they shall not depart.

Realistically speaking, your child will one day see the world with his and her own eyes and you will be able to tell your child, at that time….well this is how the world is, and that is why it is so important to pray and to pray the word, the world needs you, and needs to see God’s light shine in and through you.

God’s word cannot return back void, but accomplish everything that it was set out to do. If the word of God tells you that you must gird yourself up,

That, you must put on the FULL ARMOUR OF GOD before walking out the door, then guess what? This is what your child will do. Your child will ask you to pray for him or her, when something is going wrong or something is just not right, and they know it in there Spirit.

You must at all times keep your eyes opened so that you can discern your kids / children’s Spiritual gifts.

At the age of 4, my son was speaking in tongues; at the age of 5 he was mimicking his pastor with a hair brush as a microphone, and a cup of coke next to him and an open bible. Believe it, it is so, there are witness both in Heaven and in Earth that this is so. At the age of 8 he was praying for 3rd world countries.

As I mentioned earlier when your child get’s to be of a certain age, you can not longer shield them, but allow them to see the world with there own two eyes, and pray that everything that you instilled in them at a younger age, will remain. Answer all of there questions, but please allow them to (find), to (seek) and to desire (the Lord), and there Salvation.

Salvation is a gift and it is not one that you can give to them, No! they must want to be saved, they must know that Heaven is real and that Hell is real, they have to make a decisions for themselves.

I’m sorry sweetie, but you can not hold your child or your kid’s hands and lead them into Heaven. You must show them the way, but they have to get there on there own. Salvation is a gift, a free gift.

You will find that when your child’s character is being formed, there uniqueness will Shine, Your job will be to make sure that they continue fearing the Lord, and to humbly seek Him.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. When your child get’s to be of certain age, you will not always be there with them, but you can always trust His Word and what you have instilled in them, please hear what I am saying to you.

-Pardon my Zeal.

The kids are present, and hear the Word proclaimed.

It is so good to hear this. It is my belief that young people need to be with healthy adults much more then they need to be with their peers. This is especially true in spiritual matters.

MC

"..the disciples came to Jesus and asked, 'who shall be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?'

and Jesus called a little child unto Him, and set him in the midst of them, and said

'Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whosoever therefore, shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.' " Matthew 18:2-4

Although, it didn't seem as though the original question was "should children be in the church congregation?"; rather it seemed to me to be "should children be a participant in the church service?"

I must say, (sorry brother, a little experience here...)there have been times in my life that I went to church hoping to hear a spirit filled message, something that would encourage me in my struggle.... and instead the little ones were playing their bells and others sang some songs; it was cute, but it wasn't what I really thought I needed at the time. (although I was going from purely selfish motives as well...)

There have also been times when I have heard a "grown up" sing a "special" and was more ministered by the bell choir...

I agree with Krispy that children should be with their parents during the church service, it is good experience for both the child and the parent.

I have been at a church that had a lesson taught to the children in front of the church before the service began and that was very interesting! I think everyone learned.

I also think that we adults can learn much from little children, about what it is to be humble, about being obedient, about how our Father in heaven corrects us and how we respond to that correction, etc, etc....

I have also seen at an "appropriate time" during a service when children sang and it was a very blessed moment!

But, do children "build" the church? No, gifts were given to men to minister, build and edify, the church (the entire church).

Although, we as clay vessels should ALWAYS be open to however the Lord would speak to us, especially through those whom the Lord spoke as they were singing and praising Him on the way into Jerusalem: "Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings Thou hast perfected praise!"

(I apologize for the length of my post.)
A sister

I must say, (sorry brother, a little experience here...)there have been times in my life that I went to church hoping to hear a spirit filled message, something that would encourage me in my struggle.... and instead the little ones were playing their bells and others sang some songs; it was cute, but it wasn't what I really thought I needed at the time. (although I was going from purely selfish motives as well...)

sorry here, too.
I didn't want to exclude someone's examples or experience with the children but only to check first if these have any Bible support.
Many times we are doing something in the church not because we understand it from the Bible or because the Spirit revealed us but because we learned it from our forefathers; in theory and practice.
So we must constantly renew our mind and get in line with the Scriptures not the other way around.

Many times we are doing something in the church not because we understand it from the Bible or because the Spirit revealed us but because we learned it from our forefathers; in theory and practice.

I would say that is quite an understatement! Far, far too many times churches gather in tradition having lost the freshness of communication with the Spirit of God, unfortunately.

Just one more verse regarding the responsibility of the parent to teach their children:
"And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shall talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up." Ex 6:7

The gathering of believers is many sided; but the church building does not necessarily represent the church, rather we are the church and the building represents to many a place to seek for some spiritual significance, a place of solace, a place of understanding... many, many things in this day; but those who are being built together within the structure (whatever that may be home or on the corner..) must use wisdom not to exclude, but not to pander to either.

By the way, D.L. Moody who began the Sunday School program in many ways believed it a tool for outreach, and in many cases it is. Many unsaved people send their children to church and only attend when their children are in a function.

Thanks and God Bless,
Lori

Who is a better influence on 6 yr old kids? Mature adults? Or a class room full of other 6 yr old kids?

Socialization is the higher priority in our culture – ie, conformity.

And for kids who are in the church, but their parents are not... then the godly adults in that church need to take those kids under their wings and mentor and disciple them. But that’s not happening much today either.

I believe that mentoring and discipling are more Biblical and far more effective than structured classes. Still, I’m not opposed to a “classroom” style – even from the pulpit. Kids can absorb much more than we give them credit for. We insult them by assuming that they can only appreciate cute shallow stories and songs.

As an 8 yo I still remember the day an announcement was made that a children’s church program had been implemented. I was crushed - because by that time I had come to crave the sermon.

Some years later, in a different church, I remember the minister would drone on over the 52 articles of faith every Sunday. So I complained to my dad, stating that I wanted to hear more directly from the Bible, ex the stories. My dad told the minister, on my behalf, who then made his sermons more interesting. Yea Dad!

And, by the way, back when I was a kid, it was customary for the Dad to read the Bible after every meal. How things have changed!

Diane

Yes, I am always surprised that quarantining children within their age group is seen as 'socializing' them. In fact, it is de-socializing them, because in real society every age must learn to interact with every age.

The twisting of words like 'socialization' shows the power of higher education: (edit: it may not provide a person with common sense, but it sure helps a senseless person articulate themselves better.)

MC

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Ahhhh, What about socialization?!? (Sorry, I just had to throw this one in.) Krispy, you have not doubt received that objection countless times. I did when I was homeschooling. Even the church folk were more concerned about my kids’ socialization than their spiritual formation.

My response to that stupid question (and we get it often) is "Hey, we're not trying to raise socialists!"

Anyone who asks that question is completely ignorant of what homeschooling is.

Krispy

The topic of socialization with my children is a funny one for us. We homeschool our children and we have home church in my home as well.

Most, but not all, homeschooled children are more respectful of parents, adults, rules and authority. Most are WELL socialized with other homeschoolers and after school activity programs, church programs and neighborhood friends. In our place of worship, most all of the children are homeschoolers and outnumber the adults. We have tons of children that our kids can play with and that we will not have to worry about being taught something that is unacceptable, or see something that is unacceptable.

I also like when people tell me that I am sheltering my child by homeschooling them. I like to respond and tell them something like...

"There are 10 year olds that are coming home from school pregnent, learning about pervertednesss sex, swearing, dressing like the world, disrespectful of parents and authority, mean to others... So if you mean that I am sheltering my children because I do not want them to be exposed to such filth, then I prefer to shelter them."

Also on the side if children in worship services. Children learn what see their parents doing. It is GOOD to have your children in the services. We talk about socialization of children in these smaller groups, but what about socialization of the children inside the larger body of the Church. There is times where it may not be appropriate for children to be involved in services, but these are few and far between.

Children need to be taught to sit down, listen and obey their parents. This includes during worship in the church. If the kids are not listening, then disipline them anyway you see fit as a parent.

I for one love that children are involved in listening to the messages. Children do not take part in any part of the worship, unless it is during a music time, and this only happens 2-3 a year.

Absolutely Krispy Kritter, why do you doubt and especially the Socialization part of building a children’s church? When Jesus walked into the Jewish Temple as it was customary, every year during Passover for three days in the temple in the midst of adults, granted he was not 6 but 12 he was in the midst of the High Priest, answering all sorts of questions. Once he left the Jewish Temple and was united with his earthly parents, he was questioned and his answer to them was,

[color=000099]DON’T YOU KNOW THAT I MUST BE ABOUT MY FATHER’S BUSINESS….[/color]

[color=000099]Shouldn’t this be our mindset?[/color]

Yes, I am always surprised that quarantining children within their age group is seen as 'socializing' them. In fact, it is de-socializing them, because in real society every age must learn to interact with every age.

I too am amazed by this concept. I grew up in church, and felt "quaranteed". I remember as a young person around 15 I was deeply puzzled by the lack of anything within the "youth group"; nice enough people, but little was meaningful, as well as the sunday school class, so I joined my mom's class and found out her's wasn't any better, as a matter of fact the man talked in such a monotone that I began to fall asleep!

No, children DO learn what they see their parents doing, even those things you don't think they see..... they see!

I remember when I went to visit my grandmother once when my daughter was about 2yrs old; they came to me during the service and asked if she would like to go to children's church. She looked at me so horrified I said, no thankyou. ALL of the people around me were mystified as to the behavior of my daughter, they came up to me after the service and asked how it came to be that she was so well behaved. I told them she had always sat with me during services and learned what was acceptable behavior.

I would really like to see more people having just such a serious discussion within their churches:
1. in regards to the treatment of children both those within the church and those from outside of the church (I'm not a big fan of the word "mentor" but discipling would be a good thing for the church to be a part of!)

2.the abosolute need for people in positions of any form of ministry to be led by the Word and the Spirit, espiecally those who minister to children of ANY age!

3.the position of the "father" within the home to be the spiritual leader!!!!!

4.Seeing that appropriate social behavior comes from being around people of many different ages, with many different backgrounds all behaving in a godly way!!!

Thank you brother, for opening up one such discussion.

"When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which He shall choose thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing. Gather the people together, men and women and children (the Hebrew word here is 'taph' meaning the little toddlers)...that they may hear, and that they may learn and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law, and that their children....may hear and learn to fear the Lord your God..." Deuteronomy 31:11-13

One can never measure how much a child absorbs from sitting in on a worship service. To the parents I say, please keep your child quiet. If it becomes noisy, take it out and demonstrate to it that it is not profitable to make such a disturbance! Too many times I have been distracted when a speaker was making an important point to have a child cry, fuss which is one reason why I sit up as close as I can to the speaker. (Another reason is that I cannot see through people - me being short and my misfortune too many times is sitting behind a tall person! **sigh**)

ginnyrose