THE "ROMANCING JESUS" MOVEMENT

Rauch34,

I haven't read the link yet, but give 100% agreement in your two statements.

You know, when bank tellers are trained to know the real from the counterfeit, they don't study the counterfeit at all, only the real money, handling it over and over, then when the counterfeit comes along...that have many various forms..it's spotted immediately.

Katy

John 10:12
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

I think the man who wants the girl for his wife, will protect her, and preserve her, that he might present to himself a chaste bride.

He is not indecently hasty, but thoroughly prepares the way, in the light, neither working in darkness nor secrecy.

The problem with false doctrine being introduced to large groups, is that the few with the discernment are very outnumbered, and it is hard for them to find the others who also have the same insight. We could say that everyone should know, because they are reading their Bibles, but in practice, false doctrine flourishes because people are [i]not[/i] finding their doctrine from the Book.

We should examine the fruit and by that fruit we can know them.

Matthew 7:15-20
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Jesus is basically saying here to me if you go to pick some grapes from a so called minister of the gosple and while picking those grapes you are constantly getting pricked stay away.

Im not talking about an occasional offense because we can all be guilty of that but I am speaking of something that is more consistant and ongoing.

The Pharasees are the example here. Hypocrisy is what Jesus is referring to. Constantly saying one thing but doing another.

Yea, I think this is called "Bridal" theology, or something like that. I remember discussing it before on here.

Once again, this is a theology that seems to take certain passages of scripture, and then go completely to the extreme creating a theology that is completely out of balance.

Krispy

Brother Rauch, I'm Glad you brought this back up. That other thread is two years old and we need to look into this.
What I have noticed since, on my local Christian radio since that time is what I call "sensuous" music sung to "Jesus".
I don't know all the "Artists" names - but the songs they are singing "to HIM" - could easily be sung to a girlfriend or boyfriend. But I've noticed the females "Artists" singing [i]to[/i] Him, but with breathy, mushy, and other sounds between the lyrics. I don't really feel very comfortable with some of these female artists and see the "lover" (in the wrong sense) in their style of singing and the words.
It's been a concern, but now you've given place to inspect what modern music (or whatever else) we hear this misconception in.
A lot has happened in two years Brother. Just looking at where threads on the emergent have had to be 'added to' in just two years.
It's all moving very quickly now.

"The Shift" is coming - that is definite.

Anyway, this post is beating the proverbial horse...

Oh... thats what we do best around here! It tenderizes the meat of the horse so that the steaks are nice and juicy.

Just dont tell PETA!

:-P

Krispy

JESUS As "LOVER"??
-by Andrew Strom.

What does the term "Passion for Jesus" mean to you? Would it surprise you to learn that whole Christian movements are now using it to mean a kind-of "eros" love for Jesus - a 'passion' for Him similar to what an earthly husband and wife have for each other? (-From the word "eros" we get the word 'erotic'). And what does the term "Intimacy with Jesus" mean to you? Would it surprise you to learn that many are now using it to mean sensual "eros"-type encounters with Jesus – with Him as the Bridegroom and them as the 'Bride'?

You may think that such unscriptural practices must be out on the "fringe" somewhere. Surely they cannot be part of mainstream Christianity? Well, look around you, because this stuff is now everywhere. I live very close to one of the world's largest and most influential prayer centers here in Kansas City - and it has been a major source of this type of teaching for many years. And now it is all around the world. At this center you will find hundreds of young men and women who will tell you about being "ravished" for Jesus, "kissing" Jesus and 'swooning' in His arms, etc. Their entire understanding of "WHO GOD IS" and their relationship with Him is being shaped by this teaching. -And it is an utter twisting of Scripture.

Why is it important to have a right concept of "WHO GOD IS"? Why does it matter so much? Well, this one thing shapes every- thing else about our faith and our relationship with the Lord. At the
heart of a lot of cults and deceptions is a fundamental mis-apprehension of the true character and nature of God - ie. "Who He is - How we approach Him". It really does affect EVERYTHING.

Now, imagine that there is a new doctrine that re-invents our very understanding of God - a doctrine that sweeps the world and catches up many young people. So, is this new doctrine based
on a careful exegesis of the New Testament, you ask? -No! To your surprise you find that it is largely based on "spiritualizing" the SONG OF SOLOMON. Yes, that's right. An entire re-inventing
of our relationship with God based not on the New Testament, but on Solomon's lovestruck poetry about the body and breasts and comeliness of one of his 700 wives. -Wonderful poetry to be sure,
but what kind of basis is that for such a drastic change in our basic beliefs?

(So is there no benefit to be gained from an 'allegorical' understanding of the Song Of Solomon? -Certainly there is! Hudson Taylor and others used it this way. But that is not the point I am making. The real issue is this:- Should we re-invent our entire understanding of "Who God is" and how we approach Him - to fit in with a tiny book of semi-erotic poetry from the Old Testament? Should this become our dominant understanding of God?)

As history shows us again and again, to the equal degree that we lose our grasp of the real character and nature of God - to this same degree we will lose genuine Christianity. You cannot have the true New Testament Faith if you have lost the true New Testament Jesus. -Which is why it is so serious when people say that in the West today we have invented a kind-of "American Jesus"
to suit our self-centered, "me"-focused lifestyle. They point out that today you mostly hear of a Jesus who exists to make you "happy" rather than holy, a Jesus who is always a "friend" but never a Judge, a Jesus who does not any longer hate sin or demand repentance, but only wants you prosperous and 'blessed'. This is a Jesus that utterly suits our selfish Western mindset, but is found nowhere in the Bible.

And the new "Jesus As Lover" doctrine is just another twist in the ongoing tale of modern Christians distorting the character and nature of God.

Does Jesus love us? Of course He does - more than words can tell. And are we to love Him? Of course! -With all our heart, mind, soul and strength! But does this mean that we are to approach Him with a sensual "eros" love, like some sexual adolescent schoolgirl, "swooning" and smooching with our 'lover' Jesus? Is that what God's love means? Are we to exchange 'agape' for sensual "eros" and act like Jesus's "girlfriend" here on earth? (-Men as well as women?) God forbid!

Of course we know that in Scripture the corporate body of Christ (particularly at the end of the age) is described as the "Bride" of Christ. But isn't it obvious that this is talking about the 'CORPORATE' Body - not individual Christians? Are we each to become Jesus’ little "girlfriends" here on earth - or is it the "WHOLE BODY" that is to one day be the Bride of Christ? -Clearly it is the latter.

The effect of this doctrine on young men is particularly distressing. To describe it as "effeminate" is quite an understatement. As it is, the modern church is already known for being an "anti-masculine"
zone, with its flower displays, pink walls, mauve carpets, emotion- laden music, etc. A lot of commentators point to this when discussing the low attendance of men in our churches. But this
new doctrine takes this theme to undreamt-of depths.

Can you imagine zealous praying young men who relate to Jesus (ie. another MALE) as a "lover" whom they kiss and 'swoon' over? Can you imagine what happens when this becomes their basic
approach to God? -And this is just the beginning of the gender- bending weirdness that is starting to become "normal" in this movement. (Some are in such deception that they even have experiences of "Jesus" kissing them on the mouth, etc. The movement itself warns against "sensual encounters" but their very teaching leads directly to this kind of thing. Deceiving spirits
are always super-active in this kind of environment. Where do you think the famed 'incubus' and 'succubus' originate from?)

The ironic thing is that a lot of the people who are into this doctrine claim to be "seeking Revival". They really think that this is the kind of 'intimacy' that God desires. It is greatly influencing the modern 'Prayer' movement, the Prophetic movement and the 'Worship' movement (-which explains the recent rash of songs with "Song of Solomon" type themes: "I kiss you with the kisses of my mouth", "Take me into your chamber", etc).

I find their talk of "Revival" particularly ironic, because I have studied Revival for many years, and I am aware that all the old Revivalists prayed to a God who is very different from what is being presented here. -And their understanding of "WHO GOD IS" was utterly crucial to their obtaining Revival. They prayed to a God of holiness and majesty and awe - a God of glory who hates sin, yet sent His son to die for sinners.

The God that the old Revivalists prayed to was the "throneroom" God that Isaiah described- "I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple... And one
cried to another and said, Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts: The whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips..." (Is 6:1-5).

This is the "throneroom" God who is described again in Revelation chapter 4 - where we are told that the four beasts cry, "Holy, holy, holy" day and night without ceasing, and the 24 elders cast down their crowns before His throne - over and over again. It is "HOLINESS" that is the chief characteristic of God! No other characteristic is ever repeated three times together in the Bible - let alone over and over, day and night! -"HOLY, HOLY, HOLY."

And actually, the full title of the book of Revelation is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ". So in other words, it is a 'revealing' of who Jesus is and what He is really like. And when John (the 'beloved' disciple) first sees the glorified Christ in Revelation 1, we are told that such is His terror-inducing holiness and glory that John fell at his feet "as though dead." -This is the true Jesus - as He really is.

In every true Revival, it is the God of majesty who reveals himself. For Revival is the "Glory of God" coming down. It is His very 'throneroom' presence coming down amongst men. The God of Revival has always been a God of holiness - a God of great glory. This is who we have for a 'Father'. Thus, even His children should approach Him with awe. And if we do not pray to this God, then we should not expect Revival at all. -That is one of the basic lessons of Revival history. -We must pray to the 'RIGHT GOD' if we are going to see true Revival.

Incidentally, the 'Bride of Christ' in Revelation is described as a 'holy city' - a "new Jerusalem" coming down from heaven. (Rev 21). So it is clearly a 'CORPORATE' entity that exists at the end of the age. -Not some individualized "girlfriend of Jesus" in the here-and-now.

It is a very serious thing to tamper with our understanding of 'WHO GOD IS' and how we relate to Him. In a lot of ways it is like preaching "another Jesus". -It really is that bad. If you hear phrases
today like 'Lovesick for Jesus', 'Bridal Paradigm', "Bridal intimacy", "Wooing", 'Romancing', "Kisses of our mouth", 'Fascinated', etc, then you can be pretty sure that you are being exposed to this
deceptive doctrine. I believe it is serious error, and I urge you to flee from it as far as you can, my friends. Please forward this to anyone whom you believe may be influenced by this doctrine. Feedback welcome! Our email- prophetic@revivalschool.com

God bless you all.

Andrew Strom.

That's a shame if that is what is truly being taught to these young people. It just goes to show how satan can come as an angel of light and decieve the very elect. It could even be that some of these young people were very well meaning in what they thought they had experienced but somehow ended up decieved because it was not being lined up with the word of God. We live in times of such deception. I can't keep up with all of these new teachings that are coming out. All the more reason to get grounded in the word and prayer.

psalm1 wrote:
I'm wondering if I am in the group that is being branded false once again.

Jesus is the groom coming for his bride.

A loveless passionless bride?
are you serious?

David

Brother, I think those who love His WORD more than life itself are in the company of those who are called His Bride.

The main thing I see in this modern Church - and Very Much So - is that there are "MANY JESUS's".

Each person has their own version of what "Jesus is like." That's Scarey to me personally.

If it's the Jesus of the whole of The Word - I can relax - but if it's "another Christ" - oh boy - my antenna goes up in a big way - and only because I'm jealous for Him with that passionate love of His Bride.

There's a major difference. We're living in the days of "counterfeit" spirits, teachings, gifts and "christs" as no other day.

Hudson Taylor and many others have done excellent commentaries on the Song of Solomon that are "sound" and Beautiful.
Even Richard Wurmbrand did.

Discernment is the most needed gift in the Church from now until HE comes.

GOD help us all to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves and to watch out For each other. Amen ? With His Love.

Brother David, if you won't read from the sites posted on the Emerging Merger that discuss "contemplative spirituality", then may I just once again say that the book "The Beautiful Side of Evil" would be a good place to start to see that there are "Many Christs" within this generation and more yet to come.

The Author of that book was helped by staying with Francis Schaeffer and his wife at their place L'Abri and he is the Author who's sermon I posted three times in a row last week about "The Mark of the Christian" - which is about just LOVE.

I think you are misunderstanding the deceptions that are round about us. But I know you love God and I mean no harm at what you may be innocently unaware of.
Bless you.

Richard Wurmbrand says this: "The language of love and the language of seduction are the same. The one who wishes a girl for a wife and the one who wishes her for only a night both say the words, “I love you.” Jesus has told us to discern between the language of seduction and the language of love, and to know the wolves clad in sheepskin from the real sheep."

It was such a relief to feel reconciled and be able to "make peace" with them, that I completely missed the danger at first.

I'm sure the person was sincere, but the spirit of seduction was in it.

The Lord warned me through a friend and also through a reminder of two kings in the Bible, Jehoshaphat and Hezekiah. They were truly men of God, but prone to comprmise and make leagues with their enemies and His enemies.

A warning indeed!

in Him

Jeannette

dorcas wrote:

John 10:12
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

I think the man who wants the girl for his wife, will protect her, and preserve her, that he might present to himself a chaste bride.

He is not indecently hasty, but thoroughly prepares the way, in the light, neither working in darkness nor secrecy.

The problem with false doctrine being introduced to large groups, is that the few with the discernment are very outnumbered, and it is hard for them to find the others who also have the same insight. We could say that everyone should know, because they are reading their Bibles, but in practice, false doctrine flourishes because people are [i]not[/i] finding their doctrine from the Book.

No doubt we all have "blind spots", but this is something more dangerous than merely missing, or misunderstanding, certain aspects of Truth.

Re: seduction into idolatry, and the sensuousness that goes with it, those who worshipped the Golden Calf probably thought they were worshipping it as a representative of the true God.

Thus Roman Catholics are taught to pray to images, sincerely believing that they are worshipping the Lord [i]through[/i] the image.

There is no intention of idolatry, because of the spirit of seduction that deceives sincere worshippers.

in Him

Jeannette

psalm1 wrote:
I'm wondering if I am in the group that is being branded false once again.

Jesus is the groom coming for his bride.

A loveless passionless bride?
are you serious?

David

I think you have misunderstood the error that is being warned of here.

Passion, yes, [i]sexual[/i] sensuousness, no.

It is the spilling over, of true love between us and the Lord into the frankly sexual that is the danger highlighted.

Maybe we women understand better the strength of that temptation. I have certainly been on the edge of this. To fall in love with a perfect man, and he with her; to open our heart to him, to let him possess us, body and soul, is almost every girl and woman's dream. It is only too easy to transfer this natural human love-longing onto the Lord.

As a comparatively young Christian, someone gave me a tape that I thought was wonderful. It spoke of a distinct, intense experience that the woman speaking called "consummation" of the marriage between her and Jesus. She claimed to have had that experience on a certain date, and I envied her greatly. I longed for that experience, and half-unconsciously tried to make it happen, tried to give myself over to the "feelings" that I imagined would lead to this experience.

Thankfully I didn't succeed!

It was a spiritual experience I sought, but it could so easily have turned into something else.

That temptation to let true and right passion for the Lord spill over into something unclean is only too real!

But I'm sure no-one is condemning passion such as you quoted from Scripture.

For example, it says that the woman crouched at Jesus' feet, weeping, and anointed His feet with perfume. It doesn't say that she flung herself into His arms and kissed Him on the mouth!

in Him

Jeannette

David said

Note that the ones judging improperly in both instances were of the household of faith.

If there is a 'problem' with the kind of music which accompanies exhortations to behave in a fleshly way in worship, as if Jesus is a fleshly 'lover', it is that huge flocks of sheep are being led astray, being fed a kind of entertainment in the name of God, and encouraged to consider Jesus as a carnal companion, instead of, as Paul said 'henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [i]him[/i] no more'. This is a vital distinction to make.

Having said that, I heard a sister once say she had been struggling to pray at church one day, and felt to say 'O Lord, I feel I pray in the flesh', to acknowledge where she was [i]really[/i] at. The preacher (GW North) apparently encouraged her to continue, saying 'go on... soon you'll be praying in the Spirit'. This thought has remained with me and been a powerful encouragement not to judge myself [u]un[/u]able to get through to God, but to keep pressing in, until I do. But, when people are being [i]told[/i] they're hitting the mark and they're [i]not[/i], that is reprehensible, especially if it comes from pastors and worship leaders.

So..... first, regarding Michal. Remember whose daughter she is, and how her father idolised public opinion to the extent that he lost both his spiritual ministry under the anointing of God and his kingdom, through disobedience and lack of reverence for God's word. Later, he took his daughter in her husband's absence, and gave her to another man, and David had to go begging for his wife to be allowed to come back to him. I'm not disputing she had a rough time in those circumstances, but, her heart wasn't after God either. Finally, the episode with the witch of Endor tells us Saul still looked for the approval of man, rather than God (my 2c), although David shows us how things are supposed to be done in the Spirit, after his death.

[color=6633FF]1 Samuel 19:13
And [u]Michal took an image[/u], and laid [i]it[/i] in the bed, and put a pillow of goats' [i]hair[/i] for his bolster, and covered [i]it[/i] with a cloth. [/color]

(You may remember that Rachel stole an image from her father's house, and then lied about where it was when her father asked her to her face. To me, the example of Jacob working under a relative who worshipped idols, and being in love with a woman who worshipped idols, and yet proving himself a seeker of God despite the opposing spiritual atmosphere, is something we need to appreciate, seeing [u]we[/u] have the Holy Ghost.)

Of the disciples before Pentecost, for all their repentance and exercise of the gift of power to heal and cast out demons, they had no real idea of what was going on. Even though they recognised Jesus as the Messiah, they mostly didn't have a spirit of revelation. Perhaps the twins came closer, but their mother had ambitions for them which they seem not to have resisted (perhaps even, they asked her to ask Him). It was not till after the resurrection they began to understand things He had not been able to explain before His death. They had to lose all hope in their own ability, before they were open to see things His way. If anyone, again it is John (who knew people in the High Priest's household) who picked up on this conversation for us.

[color=6633FF]Luke 9
54 And when his disciples James and John saw [i]this[/i], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, [u]Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of[/u].

John 4 [i](Jesus to the Samaritan woman)[/i]
22 Ye worship ye know not what:
we know what we worship:
for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when [u]the
true worshippers shall worship [b]the Father[/b] in spirit and in truth[/u]:
for [b]the Father[/b] seeketh such to worship him. [/color]

Now, I know Jesus is one with the Father, but for the Jews, God as Father was a formal way to address the one they worshipped. They didn't really think of [i]Him[/i] as their [u]Father[/u]. They thought of themselves as 'Abraham's children', (as were the Samaritans). Jesus seems to be saying here, the time will come when it will be [i][b]true[/i][/b] that God is your Father, and you will [i]worship [b]Him[/i][/b].

So, where does 'romancing Jesus' come into a scriptural understanding of to whom we are to direct our [u]true[/u] worship?

Hi Jeannette,

You've expressed very well the issues at stake here. This struck me

Re: seduction into idolatry, and the sensuousness that goes with it, those who worshipped the Golden Calf probably thought they were worshipping it as a representative of the true God.

[color=6633FF]Exodus 32:25
... Moses saw that the people [i]were[/i] naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto [i]their[/i] shame among their enemies:)[/color]